Half of US Christians Have No Idea What The Great Commission Is

Half of US Christians Have No Idea What The Great Commission Is January 16, 2019

According to Barna Research, over half of American Christians have never heard of the Great Commission, and over 37% of those polled couldn’t identify the Great Commission out of a list of various Bible verses.

Just in case you’re in that lower 50%, the Great Commission is found in Matthew 28:18-20 and it’s where Jesus says:

 

“Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations…and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.”

So, why is it that so many American Christians have no idea what the Great Commission is?

Well, the most obvious reason is that it’s because our churches are not focused on making disciples, and most alarmingly, our churches are not filled with people who consider themselves disciples – or followers – of Jesus.

Our Churches today are largely focused on providing goods and services, light Christian entertainment, inspirational sermons, emotionally-charged worship sets, and a variety of programs designed to keep families with teens and young children coming back week-after-week.

I’m not exaggerating.

The bottom line is: Christians are not disciples. This is why they’re unfamiliar with the verse where Jesus commands us to make disciples.

FYI: You can’t make a disciples unless you first become a disciple yourself.

So, if we’re not following Jesus, we’ll never be able to help anyone else follow him either.

Mystery solved!

If you want to read all the other gobbledeegook from various Seminary professors and mega church pastors about why Christians can’t identify the Great Commission, head on over to Barna Research and knock yourself out. But the simple fact is this: If we are not disciples, we can’t make disciples.

The survey says what most of us already know: Christians are more interested in arguing and dividing over doctrine than they are in following Jesus and putting his teachings into practice in their daily life.

It’s also why the church in America looks so little like Jesus and so much like a religious franchise.

Once you know the problem, fixing it should be pretty easy.

**

Keith Giles was formerly a licensed and ordained minister who walked away from organized church 11 years ago, to start a home fellowship that gave away 100% of the offering to the poor in the community. Today, He and his wife live in Meridian, Idaho, awaiting their next adventure.

His new book “Jesus Unbound: Liberating the Word of God from the Bible”, is available now on Amazon and features a Foreword by author Brian Zahnd.

He is also the author of the Amazon best-seller, “Jesus Untangled: Crucifying Our Politics To Pledge Allegiance To The Lamb” with a Foreword by Greg Boyd.

Keith also co-hosts the Heretic Happy Hour Podcast on iTunes and Podbean. 

BONUS: Want to unlock exclusive content including blog articles, short stories, music, podcasts, videos and more? Visit my Patreon page.

"Agree! Been reading church history for 60 years. The Orthodox Christian Church started going down ..."

Are We Asking The Wrong Question?
"Forgiveness has nothing to do with anyone else. It's a matter of bringing and working ..."

What Jesus Reveals To Us About ..."
"Twenty years ago i was naive enough to believe that while there were pockets of ..."

Why It’s So Hard To Talk ..."
"Much of the "Confessions" and "Declarations" is aimed at Catechism, not Salvation. Sects need to ..."

Are We Asking The Wrong Question?

Browse Our Archives

Follow Us!


TRENDING AT PATHEOS Progressive Christian
What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • soter phile

    Evangelicals are the most likely churchgoing group to state that they have heard of the Great Commission and remember what it is (60%), which generally aligns with their theological disposition and the criteria to be characterized as “evangelical” in the first place. The traditional Christian views and personal spiritual commitment that shape evangelicals likely cultivate a higher level of awareness of the language of the Great Commission, and this missional jargon is more ubiquitous in the evangelical community. When selecting the Great Commission from the series of verses, three of four churchgoing evangelicals (74%) correctly identify it, the largest portion among churchgoing groups. Fittingly, American evangelicals also appear to be more Bible-minded, are more likely to be active in their churches and have deep knowledge of gospel context and the New Testament.

    – conclusions from the Barna Research article, generally contrary to your views on this blog

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Even those who have heard of the “great commission” and try to follow it I suspect get it somewhat wrong, especially as it is often badly rendered as “make disciples” as above. What the verse actually says is to teach the nations, not recruit them. If your church is concentrating its efforts purely on getting “bums on seats” and not principally on teaching their congregations how to be disciples of Christ when they are there, it is still not fulfilling the Great Commission.

  • Sophotroph

    Found the guy who doesn’t know who Barma’s customers are!

  • Sophotroph
  • Al Cruise

    For conservative evangelicals they just updated it a little bit. “Go into all the USA and make Republicans in all Districts and up walls to keep out all others.”

  • Angel Shining

    Church is a business and filling those seats is the agenda and how are we going to attract the most, entertainment is all the rage. I don’t believe in proselytizing anyone to anything. God draws the people on the path they should be on to further them along……and its not just the Christians who are part of that plan, all religions take part in moving people to God, each in a unique way. That is what is most annoying about the Christians is them pushing their beliefs on everyone and they all have a different take on God but they believe they are each right. Glad to be away from all that, and as the guy said above, they are more interested in politics then anything Jesus said. At least in the South, they are not as bad where I came from in Portland Oregon. They are open minded and tend to love all people.

  • Herm

    Being considered Bible minded and/or “following the Bible” has nothing to do with following Christ as the one and only Instructor of all truth. Even if you can find the Great Commission in the Bible doesn’t mean you know the Advocate for all children of God living with and in you as your one only Teacher of all truth as you can bear.

  • Rudy Schellekens

    “The survey says what most of us already know: Christians are more interested in arguing and dividing over doctrine than they are in following Jesus and putting his teachings into practice in their daily life.”
    How about the idea that “We are all believers in the same God anyway, so why bother?”

  • soter phile

    If you’re going to cite Barna as an authoritative source (as Keith Giles did), you can’t then say
    “see, Barna’s data is spurious” when you don’t like the corollary conclusions.

  • soter phile

    you said: Being considered Bible minded and/or “following the Bible” has nothing to do with following Christ as the one and only Instructor of all truth.

    a) that begs the very question under debate
    b) while Jesus said as much to the Pharisees, he also cited the Scriptures as fully authoritative and all about him (Jn.5:39-40; Lk.24:27,44)
    c) it’s hard to follow Jesus while disavowing the earliest, most well attested sources on who He is

    If one is a follower of Jesus, why wouldn’t that including loving the Scriptures as he does?

  • Summers-lad

    “Make disciples” often gets morphed into “make converts”. Re bums on seats (or pews), a disciple is one who follows, and you can’t follow while sitting down.

  • Ed Senter

    What do you mean by “God”?

  • Ed Senter

    If you are not a millennialist, you will never understand what the “Great Commission” is all about, anyways.
    Jesus sent out his disciples, and as far as anyone knows, only John died a natural death.

    What I don’t understand about this ‘progressive christianity’ is what is your end game? Do you seek happiness or truth?

  • frharry

    I agree with much of the analysis regarding goods and services as the focus of most corporate churches today. But let me offer a slightly different take on the Great Commission.

    To begin with let’s compare it with the Great Commandment. This is a statement that clearly reflects the thought of the Hebrew faith in which Jesus would have been raised. It is said to summarize the 10 Commandments and I think it’s no accident these words are placed on the lips of Jesus in the context of the Beatitudes and the teaching to love your enemies in Matthew 5. It also appears as the lead up to the Good Samaritan parable in Luke. The Great Commandments really sound like the authentic Jesus.

    The Great Commission, on the other hand, is transparently the early church, as it was, speaking to us. Stabilizing membership, growth and expansion are institutional imperatives. They really sound like a young organization trying to take off. And it sounds an awful lot like institutional churches today concerned with bottom lines measurable in dollars and bodies in pews. But this simply doesn’t sound much like Jesus.

    That doesn’t mean the Great Commission can be simply ignored or swept aside. But I do think it’s important to recognize that when we talk in the language of institutional imperatives, it often reflects the ultimate interests involved. Could it be that these concerns are a lot more about us than those we would deem to be our focus? And could it be that in an age of ascending “nones,” this is perhaps a losing strategy for survival?

    Just my .02 worth. Your mileage may vary.

  • erin Bragh

    Since so many can only preach a translated “word” far removed from the original and don’t bother to act according to what is taught therein, I personally would be glad if even fewer knew –from the crusades to today, conversion and conquest have gone hand in hard. A little respect for others beliefs –even competing Judeo-Christian ones would be an improvement.

  • Cyriacus

    You are aware that the term “great commission” to describe Jesus’ command at the end of Matthew’s Gospel is not older than the eighteenth century? In other words, it is just a piece of extra-Biblical theologians’ language, particular to Evangelical Protestants. The survey means no more than that a majority of American Christians are not familiar with Evangelical jargon. Would you conclude that Evangelical Christians don’t know or don’t care about sin because they are unable to list the “seven deadly sins”? What do Christians know about teaching and baptizing—that is the real question, not whether or not they are familiar with any particular set of theological buzzwords.

  • This makes sense to me. The phrase wasn’t popularized until maybe 100 years ago, and then only in some Christian circles. It isn’t a universal term, so it makes sense that many people would not have heard of it.

  • Kendall Kinnear

    You do realize that you face an additional problem. Those of us who follow other Gods and Goddesses are more willing to stand up for ourselves and not allow you to inflict your religion on us. Since you no longer can use force to convert us “heathens” as was done during the colonization period your conversion rate is going to go down since people aren’t scared of you any more. Many of us are now of the opinion that you should keep your religion and we’ll keep ours and we’ll get along just fine.

  • Ivan T. Errible

    Churches are so stupid…..

  • Concealed Courier

    …How the hell does 40% of evangelicals bomb this!?
    This is what makes me very skeptical about these numbers. I want to physically see these people in front of a camera tell me they don’t know what the great commission is. I really do.

  • Evermyrtle

    Lost Republicans are the same as lost Democrats, though more Republicans believe in “JESUS CHRIST THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD!!!” With this belief we can live forever, with HIM!

  • Evermyrtle

    If you say you have no sin you lie and the truth is not in you; 1 John, therefore we may be attempting to live a better life, ourselves and help the un-beleivers to believe, maybe!!! 1 John 1::8-10

  • Al Cruise

    More Republicans believe in Donald Trump than they do in Jesus.

  • Evermyrtle

    It seems that you have no idea where Christians, true Christians, are coming from, we only want everyone saved and getting them on the church seats will not save anybody, everyone must accept JESUS CHRIST as the only begotten SON OF GOD! IN addition to that, we must strive to live according to what HE tells us is right, in HIS WORD, as well as we can,and know that we were all, made by GOD! If we do not accept this, we are not HIS children, we belong to whomsoever we follow! Basically: Love HIM and each other is the KEY!! HE IS THE ONE WHO DIED A HORRIBLE DEATH, nailed to that cross so that you and I might live with HIM forever!

  • Evermyrtle

    The choice is yours, if you are saved, it will be because you accept HIM for who HE is!

    For GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten SON, that whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life!! The choice is yours, Christians just want everybody to enjoy this great everlasting life with them!! “For GOD sent not HIS SON into the world that HE should condemn the world,but that the world might be saved!!!” JESUS CHRIST is the only one who ever died such a cruel death for others and HE did it because HE loved us and wanted to give us a chance at “Everlasting Life with HIM!!” All you have to do is accept HIM and these facts!

  • GDunn

    Maybe knowing what a disciple of Jesus is is in order.

    To me, unless you know Shema, you can’t know what a disciple of Jesus is. Jesus said,

    26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. Luk 14

    33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

    This to many means give all to the poor, as Jesus said to the rich ruler. But…the last clause may have been the kicker, “and come follow me.” And…the
    knowing of the Shema Principle, and Jesus’ relation to it, is required here.

    Making disciples is therefore for me to know and teach Shema. And the FIRST thing we know FROM Shema, is…Jesus is not God, but God’s Agent or Shaliach.
    Puts 98% out of contention from the git-go, AYE?

  • Jennifer Gorman

    That is an excellent thought. Thank you.

  • Jon-Michael Ivey

    I don’t like how most translations make “go” an imperative, when it is really an aorist participle. The commandment is to make disciples and teach whenever and wherever we are going anyway, not specifically to travel places on mission trips.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Sort of “As you go, teach the nations etc…”?
    Edit: or “When you go [from here]…”?

  • rationalobservations?

    Why attempt to pass on religious beliefs that are based only upon indoctrination and upon no historical evidence whatsoever?
    Why attempt to indoctrinate those who have moved on from all forms or religious superstition and find the ignorant and malicious attempt to brainwash ourselves or our children insulting and offensive?

    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

    There are millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing special and there is no evidence of the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing special.

    It’s not that we atheists pretend to know that any particular god does not exist.
    We observe there is no evidence of the existence of any gods, goddesses and god-men, and simply do not pretend to “know” that any of the undetected and undetectable gods do exist.

    Christians are often baffled how atheists could deny the existence of their originally Canaanite god, “Yahweh” and Roman god-man “Jesus”, but they really shouldn’t be. Christians deny thousands of the very same undetectable and undetected gods, goddesses and god-men that atheists deny. Atheists just deny one more god than Christians do (or is that three gods and countless demigod “Cherubim” “angels”, “saints” and other ridiculous imaginary assorted beings, maybe?).

    It’s not that we atheists are “anti” any of the many millions of gods and goddesses that have been invented by men to gain power and wealth for themselves down the ages. We simply do not believe in any and all of them. I wonder if any unreconstructed religionists are “anti” Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Quetzalcoatl, Pratibhanapratisamvit, (Buddhist goddess of context analysis), Acat, (Mayan god of tattoo artists). Or Tsa’qamae, north american god of salmon migration, or any of the millions of other undetectable and undetected totally imaginary deities among which the Judaeo/christian gods appear nothing special and about which there is nothing unique or original?

    Atheists and religionists are not so different, after all! Let us celebrate our vast agreement on the non-existence of millions of undetected and undetectable gods and other hypothetical and imaginary beings!

    https://monicksunleashed.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/99-percent-atheist.jpg

  • Nimblewill

    Those who do have put the cart before the horse. We shouldn’t even attempt the Great Commission without first applying the Great Commandment!

  • Maine_Skeptic

    “If you are not a millennialist, you will never understand what the “Great Commission” is all about, anyways.”

    What is your definition of “millenialist?” I’m not sure how you mean the term.

  • Maine_Skeptic

    It would be interesting to know what percentage of atheists are familiar with the Great Commission.

  • soter phile

    “conversion & conquest have gone hand in hand”?
    Might want to bounce that thesis off the last 70 years in China.

  • John Purssey

    Or what percentage of evangelical atheists.

  • John Purssey

    Another perspective is that Matthew was writing to Jewish Christians (an anachronistic term, I know) who had difficulty in accepting gentiles as disciples and Matthew was writing to argue that they should, starting with the gentiles in the genealogy and finishing with what also could be called the Great Inclusion. During the gospel Matthew follows Mark in the feeding of the 5000 Jews, followed by the crumbs for the Canaanite woman and feeding of the 4000 gentiles.

    In today’s terms we might like to consider whether the people we assume should be excluded should actually be welcomed. The distinctive group that are excluded by most churches today are members of the LGBTIQ community. IMHO the Great Commission/Inclusion should apply to them.

  • John Purssey

    If you have to SHOUT when everyone is talking, then people will not find it worth listening.

  • John Purssey

    It seems quite reasonable to me. Many just like the culture of their church and don’t need to be au fait with all the doctrines.

  • Cfl

    Thousands upon thousands in ancient times were executed in that manner.

  • frharry

    Good argument.

    From an inclusion v. exclusion perspective, your argument works well. And as a member of the community you reference, I can hardly agree more. Sadly, I rarely hear it being made in those terms. It’s more likely to be numbers driven. And it’s rarely focused on those explicitly or implicitly excluded.

    The Episcopal Church, in which I am a priest, often posts signs out front of their parishes reading “The Episcopal Church Welcomes You.” I have often raised the issue as to whether that is false advertising. But more recently I’ve come to believe that it’s simply a misstatement of the reality. The church doesn’t welcome you, in any kind of generalized other sense. The church welcomes us, people who look like us, think like us and share our life circumstances and worldviews. That really does speak to your point, I think.

    I think another aspect of this is the role that resolving cognitive dissonance plays. One explanation for the evangelistic impulse is that it’s a lot easier to believe things when you can get others to agree with you. The presumption is that many people can’t be wrong. History suggests otherwise.

    I’d say that if the followers of Jesus are actually living into the Great Commandments, they won’t need a Great Commission. We won’t have to go looking for people, they’ll be beating our doors down.

  • John Purssey

    Perhaps the end game is to bring and live good news. There are a lot of NT narratives to illustrate what this does and doesn’t mean.

  • John Purssey

    I agree with your last para. I think we have narratives because people read texts differently. The Great Commandments needed the good Samaritan story to explain it for those who might want to get around it. (They still do, anyway.) Just like the American Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal was not taken to include black people (or women in general).

  • Timothy Weston

    They went into church because their parents made them. If they continue doing so, it becomes a habit. After a while, the are admitted to the club that is marketed as a congregation.

  • Lark62

    Christians have had 2000 years to adopt “the greatest commandment.”

    Instead, christians gave us crusades, inquisitions, and genocide. They give the world hypocrisy, hate and greedy televangelists taking money from the vulnerable that “true christians” can’t be bothered to denounce.

    They can condemn two “wrong gender” adults in a long term committed relationship and in the same breath minimize and deflect child rape.

    They have raised “I’ve got mine, sucks to be you to be you” to an art form. When told that basic laws over homeschooling could help expose horrific child abuse suffered by other children, christians unite to prevent those laws. Their convenience matters more than other children’s lives. “I’ve got mine, sucks to be you to be you.”

    When told that trans people suffer physical assault when using public restrooms that don’t match their outward appearance, christians say how dare “those people” cause me a moment of mild discomfort. About 50% of trans people have been victims of violent physical attack, and “loving” christians don’t give a damn. “I’ve got mine, sucks to be you to be you.”

    Christians have no magic power. They believe a religion that gives them permission to hate innocent people and destroy lives.

    And nothing has changed in 2000 years.

    Christians are no more capable of loving their neighbor as they are of flying to Mars with water wings. What does this tell you about your deity?

  • frharry

    The Great Commandments serve as the ethical ideal, the overarching principle from which all the other ethical considerations are derivative. As such, the Great Commandment serves to critique those derivative ethics and the attitudes and behaviors that flow from them. It’s hard to say one is loving their neighbor when they are actively seeking to legally restrict their lives through everything from voter suppression to bathroom denial, all in the name of “the Bible,” of course. It’s amazing how easily our prejudices become projected into the mind of G_d.

    So here’s a thought. We always tell ourselves that evangelizing is about the other, that we are offering them a gift, the best we can ever give them. Of course, we presume that we have what they need. Do we? And is our endeavor really about them or is it about affirming us?

    How does the Great Commandment play into this? Are we really loving our neighbors as ourselves when we presume they ought to hold our beliefs, that they are not capable of coming to their own understandings and that if they do they will be inferior to those we would offer them? Is not loving our neighbors as ourselves respecting their autonomy, their rights to choose for themselves? Would not loving our neighbor as our self actually suggest encouraging them to listen to their own hearts, to listen to what Spirit may be saying to them regardless of what form that might take? Might the greater love of neighbor as our self occur when we love them despite their differences from our own beliefs? Isn’t that what the Good Samaritan was saying?

  • Maine_Skeptic

    “Or what percentage of evangelical atheists.”

    I can think of two or three different ways to interpret your comment, and I’m not sure any of them would be the one you intended. Can you elaborate?

  • Ed Senter

    I understand about the ‘bring’ part. As Paul put it: the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
    What I don’t understand is what you mean by ‘live’? Christianity is not a way of life. Christianity is the way- the sure way.

  • Ed Senter

    Just before Christ ascended in Acts 1, the disciples asked if the Kingdom would now be restored to Israel. He said it was not for them to know. But then in Revelation which was written some 50 years later, Jesus described a 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth which is the restored Kingdom of Israel. It is during this 1000 year (millennium) when the gospel will be taken to the world while Satan is locked up. That is the time for the “Great Commission” that Jesus imposed in Mathew.
    You see, Peter’s first sermon after Pentecost was to the nation of Israel to repent and recognize Jesus as the Messiah. They did not. The 40 year period between the ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem in year 70ce was the time of testing.
    Now, since the Jews have returned to Jerusalem and they are totally surrounded by enemies, the time is ripe for the anti-Christ to step in with a peace plan and the rest of Revelation and other prophecies will play out just like it says.

  • Jack Wellman

    So true. The idea that we do to others (Matt 25:35-36) as doing it unto Christ (Matt 25:40) has also dissapeared, yet churches here have prison and nursing home ministries, and are “going” into the world, either next door or wherever there are people. It is now become the “great omission” for what appears to be the majority of believers. Thankfully, not all believers become pew potatoes.

  • Ed Senter

    Logically, there is only one All-Mighty Supreme Being.
    How do I choose? The only one that has revealed himself. That Being being Jesus Christ.
    How do I know? This amazing Book called the Bible.
    How do I know the Bible is true? Because what it says has become true and is being played out before our very eyes.
    Still not convinced? Then all I have to say is we shall see, won’t we?

  • rationalobservations?

    Taking your claims in order:

    Logically a supreme being is an impossibility.
    There is not a single item of authentic and original, 1st century originated historical evidence of the existence of “Jesus” or any of the centuries later written legends invented for that fictional character.
    The oldest / first bibles were fabricated in the late 4th century and they are very different from later versions.
    All bibles are confused and internally contradictory, historically inaccurate and historically unsupported.

    Next?

  • Ed Senter

    Logic is the test for good and bad reasoning. It does not test the truthfulness of a claim.
    Saying “a supreme being is impossible” is a claim of which you offered no proof. Contradiction is not proof.
    I never said that there is an All-Mighty Supreme Being. I said that only one All-Mighty Supreme Being could exist. That is self-evident.

    Likewise, your comments about the Bible are merely contradictory. You can not disprove the Bible by denial.
    I am not claiming the Bible is true. What I am claiming is that it is consistent. Whether or not it is true depends on if the things it reveals becomes evident. For instance, currently, the nation state of Israel was foretold centuries prior to the claim of Christ entry into history. Look for a peace maker to soon come onto the scene.
    We shall see, won’t we?
    Next.

  • From the web site: “Evangelicals are the most likely churchgoing group to state that they have heard of the Great Commission and remember what it is (60%), which generally aligns with their theological disposition and the criteria to be characterized as “evangelical” in the first place…When selecting the Great Commission from the series of verses, three of four churchgoing evangelicals (74%) correctly identify it, the largest portion among churchgoing groups.”

  • Whole libraries can be filled with books defending Christianity on historical, archaeological, scientific and philosophical grounds. Atheists like you do nothing but advertise how ignorant all atheists are about that literature. Your accusations and reasoning are childish in comparison with the great authors who defend Christianity. That’s why few people will engage you online. If you want a serious conversation, read something like “Mere Christianity” by CS Lewis and discuss some of his evidence. It’s a short book so I’m sure most atheists can get through it. But you’re not interested in serious conversation, are you? You want to insult people. If all you have are insults, then please be more entertaining. Here’s an example: discussing God with atheists is like playing chess with a chicken. All the chicken does is kick over pieces and poop on the board.

  • John Purssey

    Matthew 25 has an illustrative picture of those who bring and live and those who bring but do not live.

    Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.” Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.”

    And earlier, in Matt 7, there are two other sayings

    ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.”

    ‘Everyone then who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock. The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell—and great was its fall!’

    And James exhorts his readers to be doers of the word, and not just hearers.

  • John Purssey

    Just musing about a parallel between evangelical Christians and other Christians with evangelical atheists and other atheists. Just as evangelical Christians often seem to need to try and convert others to their form of Christianity, there are evangelical atheists (especially prominent on Patheos and other social media) who seem to feel the need to convert others to their form of atheism.
    At the extreme there are the fundamentalists with the attitude of “I am right and you are wrong”. Very little hope of a useful dialogue with them.

  • Ganieda77

    I think we all know this famous exhortation — I just never knew it was called “The Great Commission.” Who even calls it that — one or two particular branches of Protestantism? Talk about patriarchal/Evangelical jargon! That particular nomenclature is not a belief; it’s something a bunch of people (no doubt old white men) made up relatively recently. Thanks for pointing out that it has an actual name (for some, anyway). Doesn’t mean we don’t know what the call is.

  • Ganieda77

    What you call “facts” are actually BELIEFS and not “facts.” A FACT is something you can prove. Beliefs by their very nature cannot be proved. And there’s nothing wrong with that – that’s the nature of religion: it runs on a lot of beliefs that can’t be proved. But please learn the difference between a belief and a fact.

  • John Purssey

    You’ll find that where people are interested in interfaith dialogue.

  • John Purssey

    I agree.
    My point was that the Samaritan story presents a narrative to illustrate a proposition. I think that many people relate more to stories than to statements of belief.

  • I think it’s clear from the context that the Great Commission was given to the listeners (the disciples), not to ordinary Christians today.

  • Maine_Skeptic

    “Some Christians become atheists and just change what they are evangelistic about.”

    While I agree there ARE evangelical atheists, are you sure they’re the ex-Christians? I usually speak against it when someone suggests anything akin to “religion is THE problem” and it’s the ex-Christians who tend to agree with me. Meanwhile, atheists who’ve never seriously considered religion tend to think that the world would just automatically be a better place if all the churches, mosques, and temples went out of business.

    ‘At the extreme in both camps there are the fundamentalists with the attitude of “I am right and you are wrong”. ‘

    For me, the thing that tends to shut down discussion is not “being wrong” but being wrong because I’m evil, I’m in conscious rebellion against God, or I’m otherwise incapable of understanding “spiritual truth.”

  • Maine_Skeptic

    ” It is during this 1000 year (millennium) when the gospel will be taken to the world while Satan is locked up.”

    Thanks for clarifying. There are a lot of different beliefs about the order and timing of the millennium, the rapture, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Understanding yours helps me understand your earlier comment.

  • John Purssey

    No, not all evangelical atheists are ex-Christian. They were just an example. Being evangelical about something is cultural too. We have evangelical anti-vaxers, for example. I don’t come across the “being wrong because I am evil”.

  • Frank Langholf

    This is most certainly true. The “great commission” is the conclusion to this gospel and summarizes well its primary focus. The other writers of the other gospels have their own commissioning passage with exception of Mark.
    I also find it interesting that the author left out the reference to baptism. The text should be translated…make disciples by baptizing and teaching.

  • Frank Langholf

    Do not forget to baptize as well as teach

  • rationalobservations?

    Roger McKinney

    You write: “Whole libraries can be filled with books defending Christianity on historical, archaeological, scientific and philosophical grounds.”
    A gross exaggeration and a clear lie! Unless, of course you can reveal the historical, archaeological and scientific tangible and authenticated actual evidence you (and others) claim exists?
    (Hint: No one ever has!

    Your accusations that anyone who has actually studied the evidence must somehow be “ignorant” displays the depth of your own ignorance and scale of your egotism.

    The first known use of the word “religion” comes from Latin written around 2100 years ago and that word was used in the context of “to manipulate by means of deception”. That’s what the word really means so if you ask someone (who has not already joined the 3rd largest and fastest growing cohort of the godless) what religion they are you are really asking; “how have you been manipulated by means of deception?”

    When you don’t know your history, anyone can deceive you – as you continually demonstrate.

    https://agnostic.com/images/posts/69367_r9ouugwwvdgv62d_full.png?v=1

  • rationalobservations?

    Thanks for making me laugh at your accusations.
    You offer no evidence based proof of anything you claim.

    Before presenting some of the logical arguments against the existence of any god, goddess or god-man, please reveal which of the many diverse and very different, confused and contradictory, historically inaccurate and historically unsupported bibles you claim to be “consistent” and why?? (I suggest that you study the oldest 4th century fabricated NT bibles and compare the thousands of differences between them and modern bibles before making any uninformed further claims.)

    However: the logical impossibility of a supreme being has been explored by may scholars and philosophers down the centuries.

    An “omniscient” God would know its own future and the future of all the universe contains, and therefore its own decisions, it does not and cannot have free will and thus cannot be an omniscient personal being.
    – Dan Barker

    Immutability and emotion:
    If god exists, then it is immutable.
    If god exists, then it can have emotion.
    An immutable being cannot be affected by events.
    To have emotion, it must be possible for a being to be affected by events. Hence, it is impossible for an immutable being have emotion (from 3 and 4).
    Therefore, it is impossible for a god with emotion to exist (from 1, 2, and 5).

    A god cannot be all merciful and all just, since mercy is a suspension of justice.

    A god cannot be omnipotent since it could not create a rock so heavy that it would be incapable of lifting it.

    Biblical contradictions:
    Romans 15:33: The God of peace be with you all. Amen.
    Exodus 15:3: The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
    (Many, many more here: http://bibviz.com/ )

    Several apologists say that “you can’t define god”. Yet at the same time, they define god by saying he is undefinable. Most apologists also define god as being real but cannot demonstrate that through direct evidence.

    If a god exists: Why did He not answer the prayers of the imprisoned, of the helpless? And when He heard the lash upon the naked back of the slave, why did He not also hear the prayer of the slave? And when children were sold from the breasts of mothers, why was He deaf to the mother’s cry?
    —Robert G. Ingersoll

    P1: If God does exist, is omnipotent, is omniscient and is omnibenevolent, then evil cannot exist.
    C1: (Contrapositive of P1) If evil does exist, then a God cannot exist, is not omnipotent, omniscient, and/or is not omnibenevolent.
    P2: Evil does exist.
    C2: (From C1 and P2) A God does not exist, is not omnipotent, omniscient and/or is not omnibenevolent.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1d/d0/ee/1dd0ee48757aee7b0939fead53dde21d.jpg
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/u8D-hzTIK4s/maxresdefault.jpg

  • Maine_Skeptic

    “I don’t come across the “being wrong because I am evil”.”

    From Evangelical Christians, it’s becoming the go-to dismissal of everyone who disagrees with them. It’s the equivalent of labeling everyone who doesn’t worship the 45th president because they “must be a librul who hates ‘Merica.”

    I’m sorry to say that you probably will come across it eventually, because some atheists do it, too. It goes along with the idea that if you’re religious, there’s something so fundamentally wrong with you that there’s no hope for you.

  • Ed Senter

    Why is it that you continue to spew the same old crap, irrational?
    I doubt your ability to think since all you can do is copy and past.

    You regurgitated: “A god cannot be omnipotent since it could not create a rock so heavy that it would be incapable of lifting it.”

    My claim is that whatever attributes God has, omnipotence is what makes God, God.
    The very ability to ‘create’ is a display of omnipotence because only an omnipotent being could bring into existence something from nothing. Could he do it? Sure he can, but he ain’t stupid. Thus, the paradox. God could create to infinity and control it at the same time. But alas, you may be too stupid to understand that.

    God is not good because he conforms to some standard. God is good because he is omnipotent.
    And, God knows everything there is to know. That is, he does not know the future as some soothsayer might claim. He knows the future because he has the ability to make it according to his will.

  • Ed Senter

    Do you have anything to offer that makes more sense?

  • Ed Senter

    Hey, mighty mouse, are you still banning those who expose your nonsense?
    The Bible was written for this time. It can not be understood otherwise.

  • Uh, yeah. Atheists can’t stand the harsh light of Christian truth, so any Christians who come on my blog get quickly banned, the smarter the faster.

    Or not. Share with us how many comments you’ve made at my blog.

    The Bible was written for this time. It can not be understood otherwise.

    Show me where the Bible makes clear that it was intended to be relevant for audiences centuries in its future.

    Seems to me that seeing Jesus as an apocalyptic prophet who imagined the End within mere years of his day explains everything nicely. What’s left unexplained?

  • rationalobservations?

    Now all you have to do is prove it..!?

    It’s all such ridiculous nonsense that it is a surprise to the third largest and fastest growing human cohort (of the godless / non-religious) that any one is taken in by that obvious garbage and debunked bunkum.

    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that an imaginary god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

    https://sacerdotus.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/harris-impotent-evil-or-imaginary-600×435.jpg?w=1400

  • You are a good advertisement for the awesome ignorance of most atheists!

  • Maine_Skeptic

    “Do you have anything to offer (about the millennium) that makes more sense?”

    I just wanted to understand what you were saying. Because there are so many different eschatologies out there, I wasn’t sure how you thought the millennium related to the Great Commission.

  • Ed Senter

    Prove what, irrational?
    Your problem is that you try to conflate two different issues. I just debunked your claim and proved that an All-Mighty Supreme Being is possible. No one can prove God exists (a totally different issue) other than God himself.
    Pity, you are an indoctrinated unbeliever and follower of Sam Harris and his misguided ilk.

  • Ed Senter

    Just before Christ ascended in Acts 1, the disciples asked if the Kingdom would now be restored to Israel. He said it was not for them to know. But then in Revelation which was written some 50 years later, Jesus described a 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth which is the restored Kingdom of Israel. It is during this 1000 year (millennium) when the gospel will be taken to the world while Satan is locked up. That is the time for the “Great Commission” that Jesus imposed in Mathew.
    You see, Peter’s first sermon after Pentecost was to the nation of Israel to repent and recognize Jesus as the Messiah. They did not. The 40 year period between the ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem in year 70ce was the time of testing.
    Now, since the Jews have returned to Jerusalem and they are totally surrounded by enemies, the time is ripe for the anti-Christ to step in with a peace plan and the rest of Revelation and other prophecies will play out just like it says.

  • Jesus told the thief on the cross that they would meet in heaven that day. Is that compatible with a 1000-year reign of Christ on earth?

    You can sketch out how the Great Commission would work, but if you read the actual Great Commission scene in Matthew, he’s talking to the disciples, not you.

    The 40 year period between the ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem in year 70ce was the time of testing.

    Testing? What kind of a test is it when the teacher is omniscient and knows the outcome? No,that’s not a test.

    Now, since the Jews have returned to Jerusalem and they are totally surrounded by enemies, the time is ripe for the anti-Christ to step in with a peace plan and the rest of Revelation and other prophecies will play out just like it says.

    So the last bazillion times when people said that the end was nigh were nuts, but you’ve got it all figured out. OK, gotcha.

  • rationalobservations?

    Hilarious!
    You continually demonstrate ignorance of any actual tangible, authentic and original historical evidence that supports any of the diverse and different, confused and internally contradictory, historically inaccurate and historically unsupported, scientifically absurd versions of human authored bibles that first appeared shortly after the Roman religion they called christianity was cobbled together from mostly pagan components in the 4th century.
    Ref: Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus

    Your petulant denial is predictable and entirely expected as the standard response of the indoctrinated religionist that has been backed into the corner of their own unsupported and unsupportable delusions.

    I feel your pain and you have my sympathy, but you earn no respect for your egotism and pride in the ignorance and dishonesty that is all you offer.

    Again:
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief in things undetected and undetectable has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

  • rationalobservations?

    When and where have you ever debunked any evidence against the fraudulent and corrupt business of religion that you have failed to validate, justify, defend or excuse?

    There are millions of undetected and undetectable “supreme beings”, gods, goddesses and god-men and you have presented evidence of the existence of any of them but continuall lie and deny that fact.

    The one truthful thing you write and demonstrate is that “No one can prove God exists” (that should be any of the millions of gods, goddesses and god-men) while denying that this is the core and central point of any discussion of religion and the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses, god-men and other super-spooks and fantastical beings that are the exclusive product of human imagination.

    Obfuscation and denial do not constitute rebuttal and it is your bunkum that constantly remains debunked.

    Oh, and I follow no one. Others follow me and the results of my decades of detailed research that you and no one else has ever contradicted or “debunked”.

    You continually demonstrate ignorance of any actual tangible, authentic and original historical evidence that supports any of the diverse and different, confused and internally contradictory, historically inaccurate and historically unsupported, scientifically absurd versions of human authored bibles that first appeared shortly after the Roman religion they called christianity was cobbled together from mostly pagan components in the 4th century.
    Ref: Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus

    Your petulant denial is predictable and entirely expected as the standard response of the indoctrinated religionist that has been backed into the corner of their own unsupported and unsupportable delusions.

    I feel your pain and you have my sympathy, but you earn no respect for your egotism and pride in the ignorance and dishonesty that is all you offer.

    Again:
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief in things undetected and undetectable has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

  • Ed Senter

    If you follow no one as you claim, why do you keep quoting the likes of Sam Harris and others? You offer no original thought and spew forth the teachings of your gurus. So, you are the indoctrinated one, irrational.

    I most certainly debunked your illogical claims above. You have no retort to that and your conflation just shows how intellectually dishonest you are. And, if you want proof that the Bible is true, look to the Jewish people who are God’s oracle. The center of all of the action will be that city of Jerusalem just like the Bible says. The Jews returned to Jerusalem and are currently surrounded by nothing but enemies. The time is right for a peace maker who will be exposed as a fraud. That is history written in advance.
    And, why isn’t the Bible historically accurate? You have offered nothing to prove it is not historically accurate other than denial.

  • Herm

    soter phile, you take the scripture you have at your disposal out of context. Please, for your sake and those who follow you, read this Spirit inspired scripture today.

    So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

    “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    John 5: 16-19 … 36-40 (NIV2011)

    Jesus was addressing those, most likely as do your church teachers, professed God through their relationship with scripture. Those “authorities” regarding a relationship with God, armed with Scriptures that testified about the coming of the Christ, did not recognize the Christ in their midst. It must be said here that not all scripture testifies about Christ in the Law, Prophets and Psalms, in fact, most Old Testament scripture does not testify about Christ’s mission fulfilled.

    Jesus is quoted to have spoken directly to misrepresentations in the Scripture relative to the reality of God’s will and love for all of mankind.

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

    Matthew 5:38-42 (NIV2011)

    “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

    Exodus 21:22-25 (NIV2011)

    “ ‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

    Leviticus 24:17-22 (NIV2011)

    Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

    Deuteronomy 19:21 (NIV2011)

    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Matthew 5:43-48 (NIV2011)

    No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, not even in the tenth generation. For they did not come to meet you with bread and water on your way when you came out of Egypt, and they hired Balaam son of Beor from Pethor in Aram Naharaim to pronounce a curse on you. However, the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam but turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them as long as you live.

    Deuteronomy 23:3-6 (NIV2011)

    If only you, God, would slay the wicked! Away from me, you who are bloodthirsty! They speak of you with evil intent; your adversaries misuse your name. Do I not hate those who hate you, LORD, and abhor those who are in rebellion against you? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies. Search me, God, and know my heart; test me and know my anxious thoughts. See if there is any offensive way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

    Psalm 139:19-24 (NIV2011)

    He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

    Luke 24:44 (NIV2011)

    No, no, no, Jesus does not love the “Scriptures”, period, exclamation mark, according to Matthew.!

    Are you committed to the Bible as the inerrant word of God? If you are, who is God speaking to when only scholars can possibly know the original Hebrew and Greek words fluently enough to comprehend God’s intent, if they could place themselves in the era of the writer, and only if they had the original manuscripts (which none exist).

    As to inerrancy of scripture, perhaps this well-known Bible scholar classic example of Christian scriptural error might beg of you to question just who got it wrong; Jesus, Mark or Samuel/Gad/Nathan?

    One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain.

    The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”

    He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

    Mark 2:23-28 (NIV2011)

    David went to Nob, to Ahimelek the priest. Ahimelek trembled when he met him, and asked, “Why are you alone? Why is no one with you?”

    David answered Ahimelek the priest, “The king sent me on a mission and said to me, ‘No one is to know anything about the mission I am sending you on.’ As for my men, I have told them to meet me at a certain place. Now then, what do you have on hand? Give me five loaves of bread, or whatever you can find.”

    But the priest answered David, “I don’t have any ordinary bread on hand; however, there is some consecrated bread here—provided the men have kept themselves from women.”

    David replied, “Indeed women have been kept from us, as usual whenever I set out. The men’s bodies are holy even on missions that are not holy. How much more so today!”

    So the priest gave him the consecrated bread, since there was no bread there except the bread of the Presence that had been removed from before the LORD and replaced by hot bread on the day it was taken away.

    1 Samuel 21:1-6 (NIV2011)

    Abiathar was the son of Ahimelek, the reigning high priest that David received consecrated bread from.

    You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about Christ, the heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit, yet you refuse to come to them, and them alone, to have life. You follow the Christian leaders who do not recognize Christ, the heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit in their midst. God did not take a 1,950-year hiatus to leave those of mankind seeking the truth at the mercy of Christian leaders, like the Jewish leaders who did not come to them; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in their presence.

    I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

    John 14:18 (NIV2011)

    “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

    John 16:12-13 (NIV2011)

    After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Acts 4:31 (NIV2011)

    I would highly suggest that you reconsider just who you are following and just who you are glorifying. I do testify, in all truth, that God is real and available to all who sincerely seek them with the humility of a child, but not that of an authoritarian scholar. The word of God is available to all who see to accept the Spirit of truth to live with and in them today for eternity (always all the truth presented as they can bear in their language, vernacular, and era).

  • Ed Senter

    Love is not unconditional.
    “2 The Lord hath been sore displeased with your fathers.
    3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the Lord of hosts.” Zechariah 1
    God gave man a wonderful gift. It is called free will.
    The kicker is that a man who turns his back on God simply won’t last very long on his own.

  • jekylldoc

    This is so true. I fear that in the thousands of years of creed-defined Christianity we lost track of how to be disciples. It isn’t easy to read the words of Jesus and understand how to follow him in the complex world of today.

    I think trying, and continuing to try, matters much more than believing particular things. But not because trying makes me “okay.” Rather because trying brings failing, and failing helps me to feel (to know, in the sense of knowing people rather than knowing facts) how grace acts.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your childish superstition based nonsense fails to impress, son.
    Quoting human authored garbage from one version of many diverse and different human authored bibles fails to impress.
    I have not “turned my back” on the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men. I simply observe them to be all similar in being totally imaginary and non-existent. I don’t “turn my back” on Unicorns, mermaids, leprechauns, fairies and goblins either.

    There is NO EVIDENCE that supports the empty claims and lies you recycle or those within the oldest / first hand written NT bibles appeared in the late 4th century.

    You repeat the lies of every indoctrinated and deluded religionist about every one of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men that have been invented and dreamed up by men.
    You waste the only life you will ever have between nonexistence and eternal nonexistence and your self delusion and ignorance is shameful.

    You continually demonstrate ignorance of any actual tangible, authentic and original historical evidence that supports any of the diverse and different, confused and internally contradictory, historically inaccurate and historically unsupported, scientifically absurd versions of human authored bibles that first appeared shortly after the Roman religion they called christianity was cobbled together from mostly pagan components in the 4th century.
    (Ref: Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus)

    Your petulant and furious denial is predictable and entirely expected as the standard response of the indoctrinated religionist that has been backed into the corner of their own unsupported and unsupportable delusions.

    I feel your pain and you have my sympathy, but you earn no respect for your egotism and pride in the ignorance and dishonesty that is all you offer.

    Again:
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief in things undetected and undetectable has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

    Please attempt to be more honest, less gullible, less dishonest, less furious, less fearful and less pathetic.

  • rationalobservations?

    The fact that you have no counter to the logic that confounds you has been evidence in all of your obfuscation and attempts at diversion away from your humiliating inability to answer any question or present any evidence in support of the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men.

    Your denial is not rebuttal and your bunkum remains debunked.

  • Ed Senter

    I just agreed with the “logic” but you are not smart enough to see it, fool.

  • Ed Senter

    The Bible says that after a period of dispersion, the Jews will return to their homeland and Jerusalem. Then, they will agree to a treaty with a peace maker.
    Fact: After 1900 years of no place to call home, the small religious sect called Jews have returned to Jerusalem and set up the nation state called Israel. They are currently surrounded by nothing but enemies.
    What are the odds? -astronomical but true just like the Bible says.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your demonstration of one afflicted by the Dunning-Krugger effect was already convincing. Further evidence that your ignorance is only exceeded by your unwarranted arrogance appears superfluous.

    Such foolishness as yours would be amusing if it wasn’t so very pathetic.

  • soter phile

    1) you said: It must be said here that not all scripture testifies about Christ in the Law, Prophets and Psalms, in fact, most Old Testament scripture does not testify about Christ’s mission fulfilled.

    a) that doesn’t match megalomaniacal Christ’s attitude about himself in relation to the OT
    b) nor does it match the NT authors’ understanding of the Christ they followed

    For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. (2 Cor.1:20)
    All of the Bible is pointing to Jesus.

    2) you said: I would highly suggest that you reconsider just who you are following and just who you are glorifying.
    The irony here is amazing. You keep stressing the Holy Spirit’s work – and yet you seem to claim that you (and but a small handful?) actually are knowing and experiencing that… and then notably apart from the visible Church.

    You are hoist by your own petard. A church communion of ‘me, myself & the 3 people I could find on the internet who share my obscure views’ does not match the testimony of the Holy Spirit as seen in the Scriptures.

  • rationalobservations?

    The messianic prophesies (that the “Jesus” of legend fails to fulfill) state that all the prophesied events will occur within the lifetime of the true “messiah”.
    Do you lack the concentration to read and understand the evidence?

    Once again:
    What exactly is the Messiah?

    The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means “anointed.” It usually refers to a person initiated into God’s service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3)

    (1) Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
    What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

    Specifically, the Bible says he will:

    Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
    Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)
    Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).
    If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

    Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible’s description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

    Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

    (2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah
    A. Messiah as Prophet
    The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum – Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides – Teshuva 9:2)

    Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

    Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.

    B. Descendant of David
    Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

    The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father – and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David. (1)

    According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

    C. Torah Observance
    The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

    Throughout the Christian “New Testament,” Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), “He does not observe Shabbat!”

    (3) Mistranslated Verses “Referring” to Jesus
    Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text – which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

    A. Virgin Birth
    The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

    B. Suffering Servant
    Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”

    In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the “Servant of God” (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.

    When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being “bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter” at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

    Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

  • Herm

    Strange, every time the “you heard it said“‘s are quoted from the mouth of Jesus fundamentalists turn a deaf ear. Especially so when found in the Law of the Old Testament as though quoting the Lord God. God today is of the same love in heart, soul, strength, mind as when the Decalog was written by the hand of God. The Lord God did not say “an eye for an eye”. My Father is perfect in his love for our enemy. You are loved!

    Both Old and New are testaments of mankind in their relationship with God, not testaments of the Holy Spirit.

  • rationalobservations?

    The apparently fictional “Jesus” failed to meet the specification or fulfill the prophesies of the “messiah” according to any and all the confused and contradictory legends written by men starting with the oldest/first 4th century fabricated NT bibles (Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) that are so very different in content from later fabricated versions of the legends of “Jesus”.
    There is, of course; no tangible and authentic, original 1st century originated evidence that “Jesus” ever existed.

    (1) Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
    What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

    Specifically, the Bible says he will:

    Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
    Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)
    Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).
    If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

    Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible’s description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

    Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

    (2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah
    A. Messiah as Prophet
    The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum – Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides – Teshuva 9:2)

    Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

    Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.

    B. Descendant of David
    Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

    The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father – and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David. (1)

    According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

    C. Torah Observance
    The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

    Throughout the Christian “New Testament,” Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), “He does not observe Shabbat!”

    (3) Mistranslated Verses “Referring” to Jesus
    Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text – which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

    A. Virgin Birth
    The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

    B. Suffering Servant
    Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”

    In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the “Servant of God” (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.

    When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being “bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter” at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

    Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

  • Ed Senter

    I see that you are still lost in the forest because of all the trees, mighty mouse.
    Yes, the fact that the righteous go to heaven/paradise after death is compatible with the literal 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth and the restored Kingdom to Israel as promised. God is not done with Israel who are his oracle as played out by the drama of their lives and revelation to the world. The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah at his first coming. They will repent (after they accept the false christ)then Jesus returns in the clouds and sets up the restored Kingdom as foretold in Daniel 7:13,14. The book of Revelation reveals that the restored Kingdom of Israel will last 1000 years while Satan is locked up. Then, Satan will be released for a “season” before the final battle when Jesus destroys Satan and his followers by his word. (There is a second coming part A where Jesus slays the armies at Armageddon with the sword from his mouth- followed by the 1000 year period that the gospel will be preached throughout the world by the people of Israel- then the second coming part B where Jesus destroys Satan and his followers by speaking.)
    How the “great commission” works is the gestalt of the Bible. How it plays out totally depends on when the House of Israel and the Jews repent (that is, to change their mind). They could have accept Jesus as their Messiah at his first coming. They did not. And, it is the mystery that Paul talked about in Romans 9 where because the Jews rejected Jesus, the time of the gentiles and the church is for now and the Jews will eventually be grafted back in. Jesus also told his disciples to go first to the lost sheep of Israel. The Jews never thought they were lost. So who are those lost sheep? Another mystery.
    There is something special about the number “40”. It is repeatedly used in the Bible as a time of testing and trial. Moses spent 40 years in the wilderness prior to the Exodus. Israel spent 40 years in the wilderness after they failed to go into the promised land by faith. Jesus fasted for 40 days and 40 nights. Jesus spent 40 days on Earth between the Resurrection and Ascension. 40 years passed between the Ascension and the destruction of Jerusalem. Etc.
    Believe what you want about the meaning of “omniscient”, but is generally means to know everything there is to know. Does it mean “knowing” the future, or does it go along with omnipotence and “making” the future and compatible with free will?
    The Bible also warns against the false prophets who have proliferated the past centuries. Test them against the only authority of which we have which is the Bible.

  • Ed Senter

    Are you a Jew, irrational? Because the Jews totally missed the significance of Isaiah 53.
    Here is what Jesus had to say to those who can’t properly discern scripture (they have no love for God):
    ” 39 You study the Scriptures, because you think that in them you will find eternal life. And these very Scriptures speak about me! 40 Yet you are not willing to come to me in order to have life.
    41 “I am not looking for human praise. 42 But I know what kind of people you are, and I know that you have no love for God in your hearts. 43 I have come with my Father’s authority, but you have not received me; when, however, someone comes with his own authority, you will receive him. 44 You like to receive praise from one another, but you do not try to win praise from the one who alone is God; how, then, can you believe me? 45 Do not think, however, that I am the one who will accuse you to my Father. Moses, in whom you have put your hope, is the very one who will accuse you. 46 If you had really believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how can you believe what I say?” John 5:39-46

  • rationalobservations?

    I am an atheist of Christian heritage.
    Quoting one version of human authored mythology fails to validate that mythology.

    You have had chapter and verse on why the legends of Jesus preclude that fictional character from qualifying as “Messiah”.
    Your futile denial is pitiful and risible.

    There is no historical evidence of “Jesus” or the unsupported legends you quote that first appeared nearly 400 years after the time in which the legends of “Jesus” are merely set.

  • Ed Senter

    If you don’t seek, you will find exactly that- Nothing…
    “Psalm 14 King James Version (KJV)
    14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
    2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

  • Ed Senter

    The Jews had every opportunity to repent, but they did not. The book of Acts is clearly an indictment. Is your heart likewise calloused, irrational? While under house arrest, the Apostle Paul explained their dullness of mind just as the prophet Isaiah had proclaimed:

    “23 So they (Jews) set a date with Paul, and a large number of them came that day to the place where Paul was staying. From morning till night he explained to them his message about the Kingdom of God, and he tried to convince them about Jesus by quoting from the Law of Moses and the writings of the prophets. 24 Some of them were convinced by his words, but others would not believe. 25 So they left, disagreeing among themselves, after Paul had said this one thing: “How well the Holy Spirit spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your ancestors! 26 For he said,
    ‘Go and say to this people:
    You will listen and listen, but not understand;
    you will look and look, but not see,
    27
    because this people’s minds are dull,
    and they have stopped up their ears
    and closed their eyes.
    Otherwise, their eyes would see,
    their ears would hear,
    their minds would understand,
    and they would turn to me, says God,
    and I would heal them.’” Acts 28

  • Ed Senter

    The Jews got it wrong. Perhaps you will remember the truth as you are groveling before the anti-Christ for mercy as he slays you. That is your only hope- to repent and die a martyr.

  • rationalobservations?

    Repeating the pitiful and corrupt propaganda of a vile and disgusting human invented religion is about as frightening as the suggestion of a toddler that an adult won’t get gifts if they don’t believe in Santa.

    Religious mania is a recognised mental illness that is treatable. You should seek professional help in your own interest and the interest of those to whom your fanaticism and hatred pose a potential threat.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s.plague.io/upload/2015-04-26/1ef777b2-e2c4-4470-908a-932ae2bd2aac.jpeg

  • rationalobservations?

    Repeating garbage from one version of human written books of garbage fails to validate, justify or excuse that garbage.

    The evidence against all versions of NT mythology is there for all to read – chapter and verse.
    Your denial of the evidence fails to nullify that evidence/

    Your myths are all busted and your bunkum remains debunked.

    Seriously!
    Religious mania is a recognised mental illness that is treatable. You should seek professional help in your own interest and the interest of those to whom your fanaticism and hatred pose a potential threat.

  • rationalobservations?

    “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.”

    Hahahahaha. Really!?
    Quoting a version of human authored garbage yet again fails to validate or excuse that human authored garbage.

    However and disregarding any possibility of a human blood pump (heart) “saying” anything at all:
    The wise observe with their brain that there is no evidence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods goddesses and god-men invented by men to enslave and delude the ignorant, the gullible and fools like you.

    Your denial of the evidence fails to nullify that evidence/

    Your myths are all busted and your bunkum remains debunked.

    Seriously!
    Religious mania is a recognised mental illness that is treatable. You should seek professional help in your own interest and the interest of those to whom your fanaticism and hatred pose a potential threat.

  • Ed Senter

    What evidence?- denial and speculation is not evidence.

    The Jews have returned to Jerusalem after 2000 years of exile and surrounded by enemies. The time is right for a false peace maker followed by Jacob’s Trouble. Then the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel for 1000 years. Just like the Bible says.

  • Ed Senter

    Logically, atheism is the least tenable belief system because an atheist must believe that he knows everything there is to know.
    A truly intelligent person understands that no matter how much he thinks he knows, he really knows very little.
    Therefore, atheism = low intelligence.

  • Ed Senter

    “I think therefore, I am” and wonder what else is out there?
    Sensory observation merely facilitates survival.
    A mind is a terrible thing to waste…

  • rationalobservations?

    You waste your mind on human mythology, legends and lies.
    That’s not only the waste of a mind but the waste of the only life you will ever have.
    You retain my sympathy but have earned no respect for your ignorance and egotism.

  • rationalobservations?

    Hilarious!
    Without indoctrination – no person has ever believed in any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods goddesses and god-men among which your particular unconvincing gods are nothing special, unique or original.

    The onus remains with the believer to offer supporting proof that their beliefs are warranted.
    You say “I believe in a god”.
    I say: What proof do you have of this god?
    You say: “No proof. Only faith”
    I say: “Then I find nothing to believe in and I don’t believe you.”
    Why can’t you offer something to believe in?

    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it real.
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it probably real.
    The belief that any undetected and undetectable god/god-man is real does not make it possibly real.
    Any personal and unsupported belief in things undetected and undetectable has no bearing upon the possibility that any god/god-man (among all the millions of very similar undetected and undetectable imaginary gods, goddesses and god-men) is “real” in any form but the imagination of an indoctrinated believer.

    Always remember that evidence of the non existence of the nonexistent is nonexistent because the nonexistent is nonexistent.

    No one has ever proved the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men that litter human fiction.

    The major problem for all things “Jesus cults” is that there is no authentic and original, 1st century originated historical evidence that any man named “Jesus” existed and no historical record at all that validates any of the diverse and very different, confused and contradictory legends of “Jesus” that first appeared centuries after the time in which they are set.

    There are millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing special and there is no evidence of the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing special.

    It’s not that we atheists pretend to know that any particular god does not exist. We observe there is no evidence of the existence of any gods, goddesses and god-men, (including the one(s) you fail to justify or excuse) and simply do not pretend to “know” that any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods do exist.

    Again (for those who have not read this before):
    Christians are often baffled how atheists could deny the existence of their originally Canaanite god, “Yahweh” and Roman god-man “Jesus”, but they really shouldn’t be. Christians deny thousands of the very same undetectable and undetected gods, goddesses and god-men that atheists deny. Atheists just deny one more god than Christians do (or is that three gods and countless demigod “Cherubim” “angels”, “saints” and other ridiculous imaginary assorted beings, maybe?).

    It’s not that we atheists are “anti” any of the many millions of gods and goddesses that have been invented by men to gain power and wealth for themselves down the ages. We simply do not believe in any and all of them. I wonder if any unreconstructed religionists are “anti” Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Quetzalcoatl, Pratibhanapratisamvit, (Buddhist goddess of context analysis), Acat, (Mayan god of tattoo artists). Or Tsa’qamae, north american god of salmon migration, or any of the millions of other undetectable and undetected totally imaginary deities among which the Judaeo/christian gods appear nothing special and about which there is nothing unique or original? Some religionists accuse atheists of hating their god but hating an imaginary entity would appear as ridiculous as believing in it.

    Atheists and religionists are not so different, after all! Let us celebrate our vast agreement on the non-existence of millions of undetected and undetectable gods and other hypothetical and imaginary beings!
    https://steemitimages.com/p/8SzwQc8j2KJb4ARrxQxCjX4jizub4U5CAK3WwB89rcTX8pEgMhAuJcTsDweHZ6hXHwnJgxr3PZUePRwXxEugE4cmodpZNMv46PdBruYeXXHSxi1gGwQ?format=match&mode=fit&width=640

  • rationalobservations?

    You problem is that unless all the prophesies are fulfilled, none are fulfilled.

    The prophesies you mention must be fulfilled within the lifetime of the “true messiah”.

    Here again is chapter and verse why the fictional Jesus of 4th century Roman religion could not be the “true messiah”:

    The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word Mashiach, which means “anointed.” It usually refers to a person initiated into God’s service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, 1-Kings 1:39, 2-Kings 9:3)

    (1) Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
    What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

    Specifically, the Bible says he will:

    Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
    Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
    Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)
    Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).
    If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be the Messiah.

    Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible’s description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

    Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming. Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

    (2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah
    A. Messiah as Prophet
    The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum – Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides – Teshuva 9:2)

    Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

    Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.

    B. Descendant of David
    Many prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

    The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father – and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David. (1)

    According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (2) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

    C. Torah Observance
    The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

    Throughout the Christian “New Testament,” Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), “He does not observe Shabbat!”

    (3) Mistranslated Verses “Referring” to Jesus
    Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text – which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

    A. Virgin Birth
    The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

    B. Suffering Servant
    Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the “suffering servant.”

    In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews (“Israel”) are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture, Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the “Servant of God” (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel.

    When read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the Jewish people being “bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to slaughter” at the hands of the nations of the world. These descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44).

    Isaiah 53 concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and death of the Jews.

    FOOTNOTES
    (1) In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption. There are two problems with this claim:

    a) There is no biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption. A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption.

    b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have. Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Matthew 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30). (Although Jeconiah repented as discussed in Talmud Sanhedrin 37a and elsewhere, it’s not at all clear from the early sources that his repentance was accepted to the degree that the royal line continued through him. See e.g. Bereishit Rabbah 98:7 that the line continued through Zedekiah.)
    To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke. There are four basic problems with this claim:

    a) There is no evidence that Mary descends from David. The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.

    b) Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother. cf. Numbers 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

    c) Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate messianic family. According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (2-Samuel 7:14; 1-Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6). The third chapter of Luke is irrelevant to this discussion because it describes lineage of David’s son Nathan, not Solomon. (Luke 3:31)

    d) Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy. These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah. If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a messianic progenitor.
    (2) Maimonides devotes much of his “Guide for the Perplexed” to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is eternal, above time. He is infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: “God is not mortal” (Numbers 23:19).

    Next..?

  • Ed Senter

    You claim:
    “You problem is that unless all the prophesies are fulfilled, none are fulfilled.
    The prophesies you mention must be fulfilled within the lifetime of the “true messiah”.”

    Who says? Your problem is that you refuse to recognize the gaps of time within the prophesies. God knows the beginning and the end. He is the alpha and the omega.
    The Jews would first reject the Messiah. Eventually they will recognize whom they had pierced. Read Zechariah 14.

  • rationalobservations?

    You address none of the issues that confounded you and reveal the fraud at the 4th century origin of your ridiculous cult.

    Your pitiful condition if denial was already self evident and your bunkum remains debunked.

  • rationalobservations?

    It appears that you think that total baldness is a hairstyle, not collecting stamps is a hobby and shunning all religions and dismissing all gods, goddesses and god-men is somehow an alternative form of religion?

    I guess you merely wish to demonstrate once again that religion only appeals to the ignorant and the gullible? Mission accomplished!

    Having no faith in the lies and delusions of men is being free to accept the world and the universe for what it is and relish the short time any living thing has to experience life & love and to do as much good for this world and our future generations as we are the only beings capable and available for that essential task.

    One atheist working for humanity does more good than a billion idiots praying to nonexistent gods.

    “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”

    – Albert Einstein. Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954.

    Well done exposing your ignorance and recycling your debunked bunkum – and please keep it up!

  • Max

    My younger sister and brother have raised their daughters and sons without religion. My sister is an atheist, my brother a Roman Catholic and all four kids are atheists. Neither of my siblings spared their hostile opinions toward religion , and my nieces in particular get belligerent when asked to discuss their views, informing their questioners that such conversations have no moral or ethical uses and are non-debatable. My younger niece, a control freak, even went so far as to forbid one of her college roommates to put up a picture of the Last Supper in their shared kitchen. Now, I believe in spirituality and have been taught by priests, nuns and various gurus and mediums to “go within” and deeply explore the incursion of the divine into human solar plexuses. I’ve been doing this devoutly for thirty-some years. My life is for shit, while the people around me who’ve never prayed ad/or meditated in their lives are glowingly successful..So what IS there “within” to find? Are those of us who meditate, chant, fast and pray simply playing into a delusion? All comments welcome.

  • Max

    You need to calm the fuck down.

  • rationalobservations?

    “Who says?”
    Your fraudulent bible says – as quoted chapter and verse.

    I am still waiting for any attempt at justifying, validating or excusing your delusional beliefs, Ed.

    Take all the time you need….

  • Ed Senter

    A bald head is an hairstyle; a hairless body is an anomaly.
    Not collecting stamps does not mean you don’t collect anything else, nor do you reject the existence of stamps.
    Shunning all religions because of no proof is a belief in the religion of scientism; and, dismissing the idea of any God is a form of arrogance of the highest order as well as living a life of denial.

    What you have demonstrated is that you need a course in critical thinking skills.

    All “good” is relative. Even an Einstein recognizes that.

  • Ed Senter

    The Messiah is alive. For proof see the Resurrection.
    When the Messiah appears in the clouds (Daniel 7;13) (Rev 19:11) to set up his everlasting Kingdom, I suppose He can tell us whether this is his first or second coming. Ha!

  • rationalobservations?

    I have read the evidence regarding a few messiahs. There was one in particular who was fathered by a god, performed wondrous deeds, was hailed as a saviour, was killed but rose again to join his father in immortality for eternity. His name was Herakles/Hercules. Is that who you believe to be real?

    Or maybe it is the only messiah who was briefly recognised in Rabbinical circles? His name was “Simon christ” (Simon bar Khokchbah aka Simon ben Cosiba). Is that your “messiah”.

    I have searched far and wide for many many years and researched in many of the world’s greatest libraries, museums, univetrsities and archives of religion but there is not one single authentic and original historical trace of evidence in support of the existence of a messiah named “Jesus”.

    The Church agrees, saying:

    “Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted.”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

    The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings,

    “the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled” (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels “do not go back to the first century of the Christian era”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).

    This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ.

    In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that,

    “the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7).

  • rationalobservations?

    Well done for further exposing your ignorance and recycling your logic and evidence devoid debunked bunkum – thank you for keeping it up!

  • rationalobservations?

    “Are those of us who meditate, chant, fast and pray simply playing into a delusion?”
    The evidence of your own anecdote and of all the history of dishonest and self serving religions may indicate that the answer to your question is-
    YES.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s.plague.io/upload/2015-04-26/1ef777b2-e2c4-4470-908a-932ae2bd2aac.jpeg

  • Max

    Thanks for your reply. But the AMA and the APA both endorse meditation, TM in particular. And if you go to any chemical dependency treatment center there are required times of day when patients are forced to meditate. There’s no “structured” practice, but one sits in absolute silence for twenty minutes twice a day, and pays attention only to his/her thoughts. That particular practice, a kind of modified Zen, was borrowed from the Institute for the Study of Non-Violence in Palo Alto, where it continues to be taught by its founder, Joan Baez. And chant is second nature to Buddhists who are atheists by definition. Have you ever been to a Nichiren Buddhist service (Gonyo)? All of this in no way proves anything except that folks calm down and their blood pressure drops–sometimes by quite bit. the so-called New Agers bellieve in Buddhist fashion that a thought or desire held in the mind and focused on with intense concentration can actually bring about the material manifestation of that thought.

  • Max

    When i was in seminary a number of my professors were atheists.

  • Ed Senter

    I am sorry that you are so confused. Just what would convince you? My guess is that you don’t want to be convinced. -too bad.

    A wise man once said that if he did not worship the God of the Bible, he would worship the guy who wrote the Bible. The Bible was written for this time. As the Bible says: the proof of a prophet is whether or not what he says comes true. The Jews are being regathered to Jerusalem and they are surrounded by enemies. Look for a peace treaty to soon be consummated. That will signal the time for Jacob’s trouble. Then, the restoration of the Davidic Kingdom in Jerusalem for 1000 years.
    Most of all- if you do not change your mind and believe Jesus Christ died on that cross and ended death for all, you can not be saved from the final death. With out God- the source of all life and sustenance- and the Spirit of Christ in you, you are helpless and destined for nothingness.

  • rationalobservations?

    Many many years ago I was actually confused by the contradictory content of the bible the religion of my heritage employed. It was to answer and resolve that confusion that I started the quest for evidence that would settle which of the diverse and different accounts and fables had any basis and support from historical evidence.
    The result of decades of research has been that there is no tangible, authentic, original 1st century originated evidence of the existence and centuries later written exploits of “Jesus”. That observation has been presented many times to you and others and no one has ever refuted the fact by the presentation of tangible, authentic, original 1st century originated historical evidence.
    You know that as well as I do but are merely too dishonest and indoctrinated to admit it.

    You once again simplistically reference “the bible” without revealing which of the many diverse and very different in content bibles you consider to be valid or the evidence upon which you base your opinion of validity.

    I suggest that you spend a little time studying the oldest/first prototype bible that was cobbled together by four Greek langauge scribes at the end of the 4th century. Then get back to me with historical evidence that supports the content of that human authored book – or any of the later different versions written by other teams of human men.

    Your confusion is always apparent within the debunked bunkum you dishonestly attempt to pass off as evidence.

    In response to the final lines of garbage you offer: There are millions of gods, goddesses and god-men and the odds against your human invented god are therefore millions to one. It is you who should be concerned that you are really infuriating any actual real deity by your preference for a false one borrowed from the Canaanites by middles eastern barbarians and reinvented by 4th century Romans.

    Meanwhile the rest of us are happy in the acceptance of reality and the enjoyment of life between non-existence and eternal non-existence that is the destiny of all living things no matter how much you delude yourself otherwise.

  • Ed Senter

    If you or anyone else is truly happy with the concept of “eternal non-existence”, then you and your ilk are truly retarded. What differentiates man from the rest of animal life? Man is a sentient being who is aware that he is aware. He has a mind. You simply have wasted your mind.

    What contradictions? You have not debunked squat. The most basic tenet of Christianity is: God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. Every book of the Bible points to that simple truth. Compare Christianity to any other religion and it is no contest between the straight stick and the crooked stick. Christianity is the only one that makes sense. The Bible is 1/3 prophecy; and, most of that is yet to come. So you want evidence? The Jews have returned to Jerusalem. Is that a freak historic accident? Or, fulfillment of a prophetic timeline? People who are aware know better.

  • rationalobservations?

    If you or anyone else is truly happy with buying into the myths, legends and lies of primitive ignorant men, then you and your ilk are truly retarded.

    You ask: “What differentiates man from the rest of animal life?” Your own answer is ridiculous because very little differentiates between us and the other great apes with whom we share nearly all of our DNA and (on a geological time scale) a very, very recent common ancestor.

    You write: “The most basic tenet of Christianity is: God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.”
    Apart from the ridiculous concept that a self aware immortal god should sacrifice itself to itself to save a very few and declining number of members of our recently evolved species of ape – there is NO tangible. authentic, original, 1st century originated historical evidence that “Yeshua/Jesus” ever existed and not record of any of the newsworthy events that appear in the oldest first bibles that were fabricated in the late 4th century but are very significantly different in content from the legends and fables within later human authored bibles and those we know today.

    “Every book of the Bible points to that simple truth.”
    ??
    Really? What is your “truth” within the original bible books known as the “Shepherd of Hermas”, and the Epistle of Barnabas?

    Even the oldest foundational business of the christian religion agrees that there is no historical evidence upon which their business was founded in the 4th century:

    “Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted.”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

    The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings,

    “the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled” (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels “do not go back to the first century of the Christian era”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).

    This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ.

    In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that,

    “the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7).

    Your delusional bunkum remains debunked.

  • Ed Senter

    That is your problem, bonzai. You just admitted that you are no more intelligent than a chimp.
    I am still waiting for you to provide any “contradictory content of the bible” as you claim.

    So what if all we have are copies of copies? Where is the error and why do you choose to not believe?
    Any aware sentient being should be able to contemplate the most glaring question facing our existence: Why do we die?

    It makes perfect sense that the All-Mighty Supreme Being who sought to redeem mankind from the curse of death would use death and then resurrection and the promise of eternal life as illustration for those who choose to believe. Death is not what God intended, and blood sacrifice was never intended as appeasement as you have erroneously surmised. The blood sacrifice was intended to illustrate the horrors of death, and the only way to avoid a similar fate was to trust (faith) God.

  • rationalobservations?

    It appears to most of us that religionists have not evolved much further than their nearest genetic relatives among the other great apes – as you continually demonstrate.

    You ask: “So what if all we have are copies of copies?”

    The first insurmountable problem for you is that there are no “originals” that date from human fabrication prior to the oldest / first prototype bibles (Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) that were cobbled together by small teams of authors in the late 4th century.

    The second insurmountable problem for all followers of any of the 4th century founded “Jesus” businesses=, cults and sects is that the oldest / first prototype bibles are radically different in content from those we know today that were also written by human teams of authors.

    The founding institution of the 4th century Roman Jesus cult religion they called “christianity” accept the fact that there is no evidence and no one in the last 1600 years of the existence of “christianity” have ever discovered a single mention of “Jesus” within any 1st century originated letter, text, record, artifact or historical report. The total absolute and complete absence of a single historical reference to “Jesus” (or any real Hebrew name from which the Greek scribes who wrote the first basic legends of “Jesus” may have contrived that name) is absolute evidence of the scam that you appear to buy into but cannot validate, justify or excuse.

    You write: “It makes perfect sense that the All-Mighty Supreme Being who sought to redeem mankind from the curse of death would use death and then resurrection and the promise of eternal life as illustration for those who choose to believe.”
    That makes no sense at all to most of us. But what does make sense is to raid and plagiarise prior myths and legends when inventing a new mythology.

    God-men fathered by a god who worked “miracles”, were worshiped and adored only to die or be killed and “rise again from the dead” can be listed in hundred if not thousands. All the ancient Egyptian Pharaohs, many of the Roman emperors and some of the ancient Hindu deities, Greek deities and others have legends that include the key features of the legends of “Jesus” that can be traced to have evolved in elaboration from the time that the Roman “Jesus” religion was cobbled together and brutally imposed upon the world in the 4th century.

    http://loltheists.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/horus-attis-mithra-krishna-dionysus.jpg
    https://i.stack.imgur.com/ZZXlo.jpg
    https://i.redd.it/l9kpww8tcddy.png

  • Ed Senter

    Bonzo, you suffer from the common ailment that you refuse to see the forest for all of the trees.
    The Bible is a collection of books. Which books are the true “inherent word of God”? You make so many presuppositions that your argument is unintelligible. My question remains: what are the contradictions?

    So, you make the claim, “will the real Messiah please stand up?”
    Compare Jesus Christ with any other religion and it becomes self-evident that Jesus Christ is the real thing. And, the Bible makes it clear that Babylon was the mother of all harlots/false religions. Is Christianity nothing but a syncretism of ancient myths, or are all religions a caricature of the truth? God wrote his message in the stars and it was evident to the antediluvian world. All man could do was confuse the message.

  • rationalobservations?

    No matter how tightly you close and cover your eyes, or how hard you press your fingers into your ears, the evidence that confounds you remains uncontested by anyone and merely denied by the rapidly declining rump of religionists.

    You write: “The Bible is a collection of books.” “The” bible?? Which bible???
    There are almost to many diverse and very different versions of bibles that have all been written by (mostly teams of) men.
    The oldest/first prototype bibles are known as the “Codex Sinaiticus” and the Codex Vaticanus. Both of these “collections of books” were written in the late 4th century and both these books are different from each other and very different from those bibles in circulation today.

    So I do NOT “say” “will the real Messiah please stand up”? Since there is no historical evidence of the existence of any “messiah” except “Simon Christ” (Simon bar Kokchba) who was briefly hailed as the messiah in Rabbinical circles in the first third of the second century but was quickly captured by the Romans for the Jewish rebellion leader he was and he and his large messianic cult were quickly eradicated. I don’t think that the only histprically recorded “messiah” was a real “messiah” and there is no other historical trace of any “messiah” including the one named “Jesus” who was invented centuries after the time in which his legends are merely set.

    Your claims are all baseless and your delusions are debunked bunkum.
    Bar Kokchba messianic coin:
    https://www.livius.org/site/assets/files/18723/bar_kochba_coin1.jpg

    All straw your ridiculous straw men burn.
    http://www.amerika.org/wp-content/uploads/burning_man1.jpg

  • Max

    You are a little cunt from Hell. Fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you, and I’m NOT a theist. How DARE you judge me you slimeseed. If Charlie were still alive I’d sik him and some of the girls on you.

  • rationalobservations?

    Thanks for this further demonstration of impotent furu at being confused and confounded by all that contradicts your nonsensical garbage.
    It’s always amusing to see how most idiots react when they are backed into the corner by their own idiocy.

  • rationalobservations?

    You merely confirm what P T Barnum said about the capacity to fool some of the people all of the time…

  • rationalobservations?

    I bet they laughed after the gullible and ignorant paid to be conned…

  • Max

    So. You deny the power of solitude, silent meditation, calming. I’ll bet ten to one 1) you smoke, 2) take drugs of some illegal sort, and 3) don’t care to justify your sick (because it IS a disease) behavior to anyone. You probably also drink AND smoke, and are fine with that, and an occasional hangover is just okay.

  • Max

    Cunt.

  • Max

    Suffering is indicative of spiritual power. My siblings and their kids are going straight to Hell when they die. they WILL pay for their earthly pleasures!

  • rationalobservations?

    No heaven and no hell except what you make of the only life you will get between nonexistence and eternal nonexistence.
    You appear to be paying now for your ignorance arrogance and gullibility.

    Calm down and think before you spill your hysterical impotent fury all over this column.

  • rationalobservations?

    You lose that bet but your misanthropy says so much more about you than about peaceful, law-abiding tax paying citizens like me.

    I claim ten fury and expletive devoid responses from you as you lost your bet.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your impotent fury at being unable to cobble together any sort of defense, justification or excuse for your fantasies was already apparent. Further demonstrations of your pitiful condition would appear to be superfluous.
    (But carry on anyway as it is self defeating and quite hilarious.)

  • Ed Senter

    You have “debunked” nothing and merely offer denial.
    My evidence is the Bible. Which one?- Any and all of them.
    And, my question remains- What contradictions?

  • TS (unami)

    Why are shouting?

  • TS (unami)

    Calling someone “retarded” is not becoming of a “Christian”…

  • TS (unami)

    How is insulting someone a “good witness”??

  • TS (unami)

    You sound almost gleeful at the thought of someone else being miserable… Strange words for a “Christian”…

  • TS (unami)

    You say your evidence is a book. So do Muslims. So do Jews. So do Hindus.

  • Ed Senter

    rationalobservations? said he was no more intelligent than a chimp, so the term fits.

  • TS (unami)

    Did Jesus call other human beings who were also made in God’s Image “retarded”? Shame on you.

  • Ed Senter

    A witness to what? and, what makes it good?
    Jesus Christ was crucified, buried, and on the 3rd day, resurrected. Believe me now, or believe me later, or believe me never. The choice is yours.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8ca2ff7055c2d6061af9a9a387907452a852e28ba1e6afa87f096d4768901eb4.png

  • TS (unami)

    Are you intentionally being obtuse, Ed?

    Come on… We both know that insulting and demeaning others is *not* the example Christ would have us give.

  • Ed Senter

    The only thing that I am joyous about is that I know God is in charge.
    Don’t confuse me with one of those enculturated “Christians” that doesn’t know their Bible nor live by faith.
    There will soon come a time when many will be deceived by a false christ. They will most likely be martyred if they realize their error.

  • Ed Senter

    Well, compare and contrast. Muslims worship Law (the Law never saved anyone), Jews are still waiting for Messiah’s first appearance (I suppose when Jesus returns we can asked him), and Hindus are pantheists who believe god is everything and everywhere (therefore, no All-Mighty Supreme Being at all).

  • Ed Senter

    Jesus called some even worse names; nevertheless, emulation is your erroneous presumption. Shame on you.

  • Ed Senter

    Come on…you don’t see the resemblance? Seidensticker (mighty mouse) and I have sparred before and he has banned me from his blog. He is not intellectually honest.
    And, the question is not “what would Jesus do?” The question is “what would Jesus have me do?” That is not obtuse. It is being accurate.

  • TS (unami)

    I dunt know your history — I just read the conversation and notice the words being said.

  • rationalobservations?

    Can you therefore explain the thousands of discrepancies between the oldest 4th century fabricated prototype bibles and those much amended, extended, added to and deleted from, re-written and re-re-re-re-re-written since the 4th century?
    Your tacit and repeated admissions of ignorance are shameful, Ed.

    Here is a link to a web page the displays many thousands of contradictions to be found within modern bibles:
    http://bibviz.com/

    Here is a link to the oldest prototype bible that has been published online since 2008:
    http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/project/translation.aspx

    Actually learn about the corrupt and dishonest origins of the 4th century founded Roman “Jesus” cult religion before insulting the intelligence and diligence of those who have.

  • Ed Senter

    Like I have said, you can’t see the forest for all of the trees, irrational. You have been deceived by the skeptics and have made skepticism your religion.
    Take any Bible or writings then take away all of your prejudices and presuppositions. Then, as Paul taught Timothy, “rightly divide the word”, as in, accurately teach what is taught.
    I don’t believe the Bible should be taken as “the inherent word of God”. However, the Bible does contain God’s word. The Bible is not an instruction manual. It is a book of progressive revelation of God Himself. We are fortunate to live in a time that most of the Bible can indeed be understood. For instance, 4th century theologians had no idea what to do with Israel. Even today, most of Christianity is still in the dark about Israel, yet there sits Israel in 2019, a nation surrounded by nothing but enemies just like Bible prophecy says. Nevertheless, most of Christianity today won’t let go of their erroneous traditions. Jesus said “you make void the word of God by your traditions.”

    Of the “thousands of discrepancies” that you claim, irrational, which is the one that most supports your view of unbelief?

  • rationalobservations?

    You suggest that I “take” any bible and study it. That would be impossible as the oldest / first prototype bible is rightly closely guarded and in a glass cabinet withing the secure confines of the British Library where I have had approval to study it in the past. Since 2008 however, the “Codex Sinaiticus” has been digitised and published online for anyone to study and many to speed up the work of translating that important evidence of the fraudulent origin of the 4th century founded Roman “Jesus” cult religion they called “christianity”.

    It was the study of bibles and the actual history of christianity that removed my previous prejudices and suppositions of the christian religion of my ancestors and childhood. It is you who need to ignore your indoctrinated prejudices and propaganda induced suppositions in favour of a clear headed study and assessment of the actual evidence ignoring the mythology that originated in the late 4th century and some 1600 years of fraudulent propaganda that was brutally imposed upon the then known world starting from the 4th century.

    Your reference to legends that first appear centuries after the time in which they were set is pathetic, Ed. Those stories are presented in diverse and different versions of the New Testament, and as new evidence has been revealed it became clear that they do not represent historical realities. There is not one single authentic and original historical reference to or mention of “Jesus” that originates from within the 1st century and no sign of any major texts that are similar to either of the two late 4th century originated bibles that differ in content from each other and differ in thousands of ways from modern bibles.

    The Church agrees, saying:

    “Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted.”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

    The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings,

    “the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled” (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels “do not go back to the first century of the Christian era”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).

    This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ.

    In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that,

    “the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7).

    You endeavor to narrow down the discrepancies that reveal the fraudulent origins and content of modern bibles. That ploy fails as all the discrepancies need reconciling or there is no reconciliation and the vast differences between the 4th century prototype NT bibles and those in circulation today is impossibly to dismiss or deny.

    You cannot ignore the links to the discrepancies by denial, Ed.
    Follow this link and investigate every single discrepancy and contradiction listed: http://bibviz.com/

    Here again is the link to the oldest prototype bible:
    http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/project/translation.aspx

    Placing your fingers in your ears and ignoring all the evidence is your only option to avoid realising that your childish superstitions and fraudulent religion are all dishonest bunkum. Your pathetic avoidance of all the evidence and your dishonesty in denial is shameful.

    http://www.ancientpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/oldestbiblelent3.jpg

  • Ed Senter

    Your claim is “fraud”, yet you have provided not one iota of evidence of fraud. In order to prove fraud, you must provide the truth. You have not.
    Again, I ask that you provide your best evidence of fraud. Start with just one. Your platitudes don’t cut it.

  • rationalobservations?

    The major problem for all things “Jesus” cult (exactly like the Yahweh cult and all other man made religions) is that there is no historical trace of their myths, legends and fables just as there is no historical trace of the existence of “Jesus” from within the 1st century and all the diverse and different, confused and contradictory myths and legends cannot be traced back to earlier than the 4th century and those first 4th century prototype bibles are very significantly different from any circulating today.

    The oldest/first politico-corporate business of “christianity” (that was also founded in the 4th century) agrees:

    “Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted.”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

    The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings,

    “the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled” (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels “do not go back to the first century of the Christian era”
    – (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).

    This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ.

    In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that,
    “the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD”
    – (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7).

    There are millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing unique, original or special and there is no evidence of the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men among which the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” and Roman’s god-man “Jesus” appear nothing special.

    It’s not that we atheists pretend to know that any particular god does not exist. We observe there is no evidence of the existence of any gods, goddesses and god-men, (including the one(s) you fail to justify or excuse) and simply do not pretend to “know” that any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods do exist.

    Christians are often baffled how atheists could deny the existence of their originally Canaanite god, “Yahweh” and Roman god-man “Jesus”, but they really shouldn’t be. Christians deny thousands of the very same undetectable and undetected gods, goddesses and god-men that atheists deny. Atheists just deny one more god than Christians do (or is that three gods and countless demigod “Cherubim” “angels”, “saints” and other ridiculous imaginary assorted beings, maybe?).

    It’s not that we atheists are “anti” any of the many millions of gods and goddesses that have been invented by men to gain power and wealth for themselves down the ages. We simply do not believe in any and all of them. I wonder if any unreconstructed religionists are “anti” Zeus, Odin, Apollo, Quetzalcoatl, Pratibhanapratisamvit, (Buddhist goddess of context analysis), Acat, (Mayan god of tattoo artists). Or Tsa’qamae, north american god of salmon migration, or any of the millions of other undetectable and undetected totally imaginary deities among which the Judaeo/christian gods appear nothing special and about which there is nothing unique or original? Some religionists accuse atheists of hating their god but hating an imaginary entity would appear as ridiculous as believing in it.

    Atheists and religionists are not so different, after all! Let us celebrate our vast agreement on the non-existence of millions of undetected and undetectable gods and other hypothetical and imaginary beings!

    As for any of the many diverse and different creation myths (including the two contradictory creation myths in GEN 1 and GEN 2)? There is nothing that the science of cosmology has discovered that corresponds to any of the myths that were invented by ignorant ancient barbarians.

    The infinite 13,820,000,000 year old universe has been measured and inspected and we have images of the hot dense young universe as it was shortly after it emerged and started the rapid and accelerating expansion we observe and continue to measure today.
    We understand the material evolution of the universe and accept the growing mountain of evidence that confirms the fact of 4,000,000,000 years of past, current and ongoing biological evolution of life on Earth.

    The alternative to understanding science and accepting the fact of evolution is not creationism – it is ignorance and superstition.

    It appears self evident (from the garbage they recycle) that some folks still believe merely because they have been indoctrinated with faith and have faith exclusively because they have been brainwashed to believe.
    None of them ever offer anything evidence based and none offer anything other than the fact of their irrational belief and the threat laced childish invitation to become also enslaved by the nonsense that enslaves them.

    No wonder the fastest growing human demographic related to religion are the godless/non religious who now form a majority in most of the educated, free, predominantly secular democracies of the developed world..

    It behooves all folk of good intention to continue to spread the good news of education, free secular democracy and the endless reasons for proud rational atheism.

  • Ed Senter

    Again, you have refused to answer my simple question and have provided nothing but vague platitudes of denial.
    To claim that “there is no historical trace” is at best intellectual dishonesty and at worst an out right lie.
    There is no better evidence for the accuracy of both the Old Testament and New Testament (for the NT is but an outflow of the OT) than the nation state of Israel. If you do nothing but take the OT for what is says as a story, a small band of Jews would have the Kingdom of Israel restored at its historic local- Jerusalem. Not, because the Jews are anything special, but because it was God’s choice to use them as his oracle to the world. For, the basic tenet of Christianity is “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself”.
    Now you can believe it or believe it not, but you can not deny that accuracy of prophecy being fulfilled before your very eyes.

    You may believe that you are no different than the other apes, but evolution can not explain how most men’s minds became aware that they are aware which is what makes most humans (you apparently are the exception) different than other creatures evolved or not.

    Again, just provide one of your best reasons for your non-belief.

  • rationalobservations?

    I have come to expect the kind of blanket denial and obfuscation in his latest (thankfully brief) diatribe and know that this is the response of all religionists who discover they cannot validate, justify, defend or excuse the fraudulent garbage with which they have been brainwashed.

    You now have learned that there is no historical evidence of the existence of “Jesus” and no trace of any of the incredible and newsworthy adventures that are exclusive to fictional tales within diverse and very different versions of NT bibles that can be traced back only to prototypes fabricated in the late 4th century.

    Even the oldest prototype “church” agrees, saying:

    “Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted.”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

    The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings,

    “the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled” (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels “do not go back to the first century of the Christian era”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).

    This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ.

    In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that,

    “the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7).

    The evidence of the absence of evidence is the utter, total and complete absence of historical evidence that is confirmed by all who have been in denial of that absolute fact but have been unable to present a single item of evidence of the existence and exploits of the fictional “Jesus”.

    Myths and legends written centuries after the time in which they are merely set are not evidence.
    Evidence of other events and people is not evidence of the existence and adventures of “Jesus”.
    Propaganda written centuries after the time in which myths and legends are merely set are not evidence.
    Your personal indoctrinated beliefs are not evidence of anything other than the depth of your indoctrination.
    You join the rapidly declining rump of those who believe only because they have been indoctrinated with faith and own faith exclusively because they have been brainwashed to believe.

    Best wishes and much peace and love to you and yours and if you ever summon the courage and/or spark of curiosity to investigate the evidence, I would be happy to welcome you to the peaceful and humanitarian fastest growing human demographic who have already cast off the indoctrination you and other contributors to this column of ignorance and superstition demonstrate in most of your bizarre entries.

  • rationalobservations?

    Yet more lies, Ed?
    You should be ashamed of yourself.
    Tch tch, son. Lying is a sure sign that you have lost any argument that you have yet to enter into via the presentation of logic and evidence.

  • Ed Senter

    I quote from this very thread, “You ask: What differentiates man from the rest of animal life?” Your own answer is ridiculous because very little differentiates between us and the other great apes with whom we share nearly all of our DNA and (on a geological time scale) a very, very recent common ancestor.” .” rationalobservations? 23 days ago

    I had said that a mind was what separated man from other animal life. Man is aware that he is aware. You disagreed and implied that you were the equivalent of a chimp. So you are the liar and stupid, too.

  • Ed Senter

    Google “historical Jesus” or “historicity of Jesus”. Wikipedia has an innumerable amount of scholarship that Jesus was an historic figure. Your opinion is so fringe element as to be totally discounted. You can not even put the authority you provide in proper context. It amounts to little more than “all we have are copies of copies”. SO WHAT?, I say.
    Jesus as an historic figure is the easiest to prove. I need not dig it up again just to counter your frivolous projections. I merely need to point to the scholarship of others.
    My argument begins with the presuppositions that Jesus of Nazareth existed and that he was an historical figure.

    If you want to try again, just what is your best reason for your non-belief?

  • rationalobservations?

    Once again Ed, you offer only opinion and propaganda instead of actual, tangible evidence of the existence of “Jesus”.

    I know that a mountain of propaganda has built up since the 4th century Roman “Jesus” cult was founded and so very brutally imposed upon the world for the many centuries of terror, torture, crusade and inquisition along with so many individual acts of torture murder and oppression of any and all who denied or rejected the propaganda of “the church”.

    Since the 19th century – the power and influence of religion has declined in almost direct proportion to the expansion of education and free, secular democracy.

    Many now reject your “Jesus” cults and sects of religion on the grounds that no two versions of bible are entirely or even nearly similar to the oldest / first 4th century fabricated prototype bibles (Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) and the many thousands of significant differences between those prototypes and the different and internally contradictory editions of bibles in circulation today.

    You now have learned that there is no historical evidence of the existence of “Jesus” and no trace of any of the incredible and newsworthy adventures that are exclusive to fictional tales within diverse and very different versions of NT bibles that can be traced back only to prototypes fabricated in the late 4th century.

    Even the oldest prototype “church” agrees, saying:

    “Our documentary sources of knowledge about the origins of Christianity and its earliest development are chiefly the New Testament Scriptures, the authenticity of which we must, to a great extent, take for granted.”
    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. iii, p. 712)

    The Church makes extraordinary admissions about its New Testament. For example, when discussing the origin of those writings,

    “the most distinguished body of academic opinion ever assembled” (Catholic Encyclopedias, Preface) admits that the Gospels “do not go back to the first century of the Christian era”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, Farley ed., vol. vi, p. 137, pp. 655-6).

    This statement conflicts with priesthood assertions that the earliest Gospels were progressively written during the decades following the death of the Gospel Jesus Christ.

    In a remarkable aside, the Church further admits that,

    “the earliest of the extant manuscripts [of the New Testament], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD”

    (Catholic Encyclopedia, op. cit., pp. 656-7).

    The evidence of the absence of evidence is the utter, total and complete absence of historical evidence that is confirmed by all who have been in denial of that absolute fact but have been unable to present a single item of evidence of the existence and exploits of the fictional “Jesus”.

    Myths and legends written centuries after the time in which they are merely set are not evidence.
    Evidence of other events and people is not evidence of the existence and adventures of “Jesus”.
    Propaganda written centuries after the time in which myths and legends are merely set are not evidence.
    Your personal indoctrinated beliefs are not evidence of anything other than the depth of your indoctrination.
    You join the rapidly declining rump of those who believe only because they have been indoctrinated with faith and own faith exclusively because they have been brainwashed to believe.

    In the 4th century Roman Empire fewer than 5% of the population belonged to any of the several messianic cults but when the Emperor Constantine felt the need to discredit the old gods and his mother had become enthralled with a messianic cult – Constantine took measures to establish a then new religion that was rejected as “heresy” by most folk so it was decreed that conversion was required and all who continued to reject the heresy were casually slaughtered while the people’s most holy artifacts and temples were systematically destroyed. NO one knows how many people were murdered to establish the “Jesus” cult as the only tolerated religion but we do have history of the brutality with which acceptance of christian rule was maintained through torture, terror, crusade and inquisition until the establishment of universal education and free, secular democracy overturned the tyranny of christian regimes.

    Today education and free, secular democracy has proved to be the antidote to religious indoctrination and fewer than 18% of Americans and fewer than 6% of Europeans remain actively involved within any cult, sect & business of religion as demonstrated by the attendance figures published by christian cults and sects and the rapidly growing number of empty redundant churches that litter the villages, towns and cities of the developed world.

    You reference quite recent additions to bibles in current circulation. The oldest prototype bible written at the end of the 4th century do not include the resurrection fables added to later human written bibles.
    See the oldest prototype bible (Codex Sinaiticus) on line here:
    http://www.codexsinaiticus….

    I doubt that you will absorb or investigate the historical truth of this – but once read you will not be able to forget the truth of this.

    The evidence of the 4th century foundation and later evolution of christianity is available in book form:
    http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/

  • rationalobservations?

    I repeat that very little separates us from our nearest relatives among the other “great apes” with whom we share most of our DNA and a recent (on a geological time scale) common ancestor. There is no comparison made or implies regarding the relative intellectual capacities of our human species of ape and others. I have to say that many among us more evolved specimens do not appear to have advanced much beyond the mental and intellectual capabilities of apes.

    You pathetic whining and nit picking may be entertaining for some readers but it fails to disguise your absolutely humiliating failure to validate, justify, defend or excuse your primitive superstitions through the application of intellect, logic and (most of all!) evidence.

    The lies and deception is all one way from you my dishonest and delusional friend.

  • Ed Senter

    I know that you are anti-religion and your biased opinion is based upon that. I get it. But,
    “VIRTUALLY ALL SCHOLARS OF ANTIQUITY AGREE THAT JESUS EXISTED.”
    Historical Jesus, Wikipedia

    So, you are either stupid or a liar.
    Have you got anything else as to why you don’t believe?

  • Ed Senter

    A mind is a terrible thing to waste, and what little mind you have exhibited is truly retarded and wasted.
    To be happy with the concept of eternal non-existence just shows how little you have use of your mind and awareness.

  • rationalobservations?

    NO SCHOLARS OF ANY DISCIPLINE HAVE EVER DISCOVERED EVIDENCE OF THE EXISTENCE OF “JESUS”.
    Fact always trumps opinion!

  • rationalobservations?

    To accept childish superstition, myths legends and lies through self delusion and wishful thinking is pathetic and infantile.

  • Ed Senter

    The same can be said of most historic figures. Often, all we have are what is written and what others have written. After all, Jesus did resurrect and currently sits at the right hand of the Father. Why don’t you learn how we get history. Maybe your local junior college has some courses.
    If this is all you have to justify your non-belief, it is pretty lame and you are lazy.

  • Ed Senter

    It seems to me that anyone who believes this short life is all there is would not waste time mocking believers.
    What a loser and a truly pathetic waste.

  • rationalobservations?

    It’s a sad waste of the only life you will ever get to be deluded into imagining there could be anything more against common sense, without any logic, reason or evidence.

    Your childish wishful thinking is baseless.

    The multiple reasons, logic and evidence that condemns that steaming pile of Bull-$#1T you call a “bible” is spread throughout this comment column and all across the world wide web.
    You sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “la,la,la, I can’t hear you so the Bull-S**t in my buy-bull must be true” fails to do anything but reveal the infantile nature of religion and most among the declining cohort of remaining religionists of the developed world.

    You have been presented with chapter and verse from your own buy-bull that indicates that “Jesus” (even if it could be proved he existed – but as you demonstrate; it can’t) did not fulfill the description and prophesies of a “messiah”. You have chosen merely to ignore or deny that evidence.

    Why is unwarranted and unsupported arrogant egotism, denial, myths and Bull-$#1T all you have to offer when a bit of actual, tangible, authentic and original reason, logic and most of all; evidence is all it needs to run some chance of converting me (and most others) from an evidence based skeptic into an evidence based believer?

    It’s that global failure to defend or justify religion that is contributing to the rapid decline of religion all across the educated, free, now predominantly secular developed world as well as among the millennial generation and generation Z world-wide.

    You retain my sympathy and good wishes, but continually earn no respect for your ignorance, arrogance, obfuscation and dishonest unjustified denial.

  • rationalobservations?

    It is your unsupported and unsupportable delusions and fantasies that appear ever more pathetic.

    Why is unwarranted and unsupported arrogant egotism, denial, myths and Bull-$#1T all you have to offer when a bit of actual, tangible, authentic and original reason, logic and most of all; evidence is all it needs to run some chance of converting me (and most others) from an evidence based skeptic into an evidence based believer?

    It’s that global failure to defend or justify religion that is contributing to the rapid decline of religion all across the educated, free, now predominantly secular developed world as well as among the millennial generation and generation Z world-wide.

    You retain my sympathy and good wishes, but continually earn no respect for your ignorance, arrogance, obfuscation and dishonest unjustified denial.

  • rationalobservations?

    “The same can be said of most historic figures.”?
    That pathetic lie has failed in response to the absolute, total and complete historical silence regarding the centuries later written legends of “Jesus” that are exclusive to those confused and internally contradictory legends that first appear in prototype in the late 4th century human written bibles (Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus) that are so different from the bibles in circulation today.

    The later interpolated key references to the copycat “resurrection” of (a god-man fathered by a god that appear in all too many mythologies written prior to the legends) “Jesus” are absent from the oldest/first bibles so any reference to fiction cannot validate that fiction. When will you grow up and learn that??

    The multiple reasons, logic and evidence that condemns that steaming pile of Bull-$#1T you call a “bible” is spread throughout this comment column and all across the world wide web.
    You sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “la,la,la, I can’t hear you so the Bull-S**t in my buy-bull must be true” fails to do anything but reveal the infantile nature of religion and most among the declining cohort of remaining religionists of the developed world.

    You have been repeatedly presented with chapter and verse from your own buy-bull that indicates that “Jesus” (even if it could be proved he existed – but as you demonstrate; it can’t) did not fulfill the description and prophesies of a “messiah”. You have chosen merely to ignore or deny that evidence.

    Why is unwarranted and unsupported arrogant egotism, denial, myths and Bull-$#1T all you have to offer when a bit of actual, tangible, authentic and original reason, logic and most of all; evidence is all it needs to run some chance of converting me (and most others) from an evidence based skeptic into an evidence based believer?

    It’s that global failure to defend or justify religion that is contributing to the rapid decline of religion all across the educated, free, now predominantly secular developed world as well as among the millennial generation and generation Z world-wide.

    All you have are a series of confused and internally contradictory works of human fiction called bibles. As this is all you have to justify your indoctrinated beliefs, it is pretty lame and you are lazy.

    You merely and continually demonstrate that you only believe because you have been indoctrinated with faith and exclusively have faith only because you have been brainwashed to believe. There is little more pathetic than that.

    You retain my sympathy and good wishes, but continually earn no respect for your ignorance, arrogance, obfuscation and dishonest unjustified denial.

  • Ed Senter

    Christianity is based on a FACT- the Resurrection. Begin there and you are on your way to belief in eternal life.
    Jesus told the Jews that the only proof they would have is his resurrection.

  • Ed Senter

    Since most religion is little more than a code of ethics (that is not my view but a reality), just wait when all you have is humanism which is apparently your religion. You will make some dictator your god.

  • rationalobservations?

    Two words continue to confound you
    PROVE IT !

  • Ed Senter

    What are you arguing? You can’t say Jesus was not the Messiah until you first presuppose he existed. And, you can’t use Jewish interpretations of scripture when that very same scripture prophesied that the Jews would deny the Messiah.
    The entire book of Hebrews and any of Paul’s writings show how the unbelieving Jews were wrong. The entire book of Acts is an indictment against those unbelieving Jews.

  • Ed Senter

    The best proof I have found is presented by Dr. Gene Scott at pastormelissascott dot com.

  • rationalobservations?

    You delude yourself that the only option is between the totalitarianism of religion based dictatorship or the totalitarianism of a non-religion based dictatorship. The third largest and fastest growing human demographic and the vast, vast majority of the millennial generation and generation Z have rejected all form of totalitarian dictatorships in favour of educated, peaceful free, secular democracy.

    I have no religion and believe in none of the millions of human invented, undetectable and undetected gods, goddesses and god-men in which you do not believe and merely include those indistinguishable ones in which you have been indoctrinated and deluded into believing in.

    Again you fail to divert attention away from you inability to answer the question: Why is unwarranted and unsupported arrogant egotism, denial, myths and buy-bull Bull-$#1T all you have to offer when a bit of actual, tangible, authentic and original reason, logic and most of all; evidence is all it needs to run some chance of converting me (and most others) from an evidence based skeptic into an evidence based believer?

    You know as well as I do that there in not one single item of authentic original historical evidence of the mythological garbage within any and all of the diverse and different, confused and internally contradictory human authored NT bibles that have been cobbled together since the prototypes appeared in the late 4th century.

    It’s that global failure to defend or justify religion that is contributing to the rapid decline of religion all across the educated, free, now predominantly secular developed world as well as among the millennial generation and generation Z world-wide.

    https://s3.amazonaws.com/s.plague.io/upload/2015-04-26/1ef777b2-e2c4-4470-908a-932ae2bd2aac.jpeg

  • rationalobservations?

    I am joining you and every christian alive or dead in confirming that there is not one single item of historical evidence of the existence of “Jesus” or any of the diverse and very different myths and legends of Jesus that have been authored by men starting in the oldest first NT bibles that were written in the late 4th century and then almost constantly added to and deleted from leading to the slow evolution of the very different bibles in circulation today.

    That is a simple enough observation that I have presented to scholars, Librarians of the world’ leading libraries and the curators of many of the world’s leading religious and secular museums. The, you, leaders of religion and delusional religionists have failed to present evidence because there is no evidence.

    You once again quote from with a human authored book that fails to validate that book any more than quoting from Harry Potter or the legends of “Robin Hood” validate those more recent works of fiction.

    You simply don’t get it that the fictional garbage exclusive to all different bibles is what is in question and the garbage within all different bibles is impossible to validate by quoting that garbage.

    There is no non-fictional actual independent, authentic and original, 1st century originated historical evidence of the existence of “Jesus” or any of the centuries later written adventures of Harry Potter “Jesus”.

    I am very aware of a real acclaimed messiah that was confirmed in Rabbinical circles and has coins struck inhis honour by the Jewish council of Northern Judea. His name was “Simon Christ” (Simon bar Kokchba) and he was killed by the Romans alomg with the thousands of members of his messianic cult.
    Why don’t you worship a christ/messiah of which some evidence of existence is available (even though the”divinity” has never been validated) of any and all the messiah claimants that are mentioned (among which no contemporary mention of “Jesus” has ever been discovered) between Circa 6 BCE and Circa 140 CE?

    Once you stop treating the fiction within bibles as a point of reference and look for evidence in support of that fiction – you will quickly realise (finally!) that there is no historical non-biblical NON-FICTIONAL evidence of the existence of “Jesus” because there is no non fictional historical evidence of the existence of “Jesus”.

    Now read this through again slowly and make no more silly and unsupported claims you cannot validate with evidence.

  • rationalobservations?

    You haven’t got it have you, Ed?
    The OPINION of you or Gene Scott or the sybaritic Pope are not historical evidence.

    Those two words continue to confound you, my friend.

    You cannot prove current versions of biblical fiction by quoting that fiction or referencing propaganda or opinions related to that fiction.

    Try again..?

  • Ed Senter

    Prove you exist.
    Prove the person you think is your mother is your mother.
    Prove the person you were told is your father is your father.
    Prove you are a citizen of the country of which you reside.

    Don’t tell me you have a DNA test or birth certificate because those are recent developments and can be forged.

    At some point, one must make a mental assessment and accept it as true. Same thing with history.
    Claiming something is fiction or a myth does not make it so. It just makes you an idiot.
    Go ahead and believe Jesus is fiction and the Bible is full of fables. You are left with nothing but death.
    An intelligent person would ask why death? Is there anything else?

  • Ed Senter

    The proof of a prophet is whether or not what he says comes true.
    Jesus said to believe on him for eternal life. Well, how do I know I will get eternal life until I die? I walk by faith not by sight.
    You keep demanding proof of an afterlife before you believe. That ain’t going to happen.

    But, this book what you claim is a myth and propaganda, says that the Jews are God’s chosen people. Because they worshiped false gods, they would be punished for a time then redeemed by a savior. That savior would be rejected, then 2000 years later, the Kingdom of Israel would be restored after a great tribulation. That time is now for an unbelieving world to witness. That little nation state called Israel is surrounded by enemies. The time is right for a peace maker to come on the scene with a peace treaty. Just like the Bible says (in spite of your false claim that there are so many different Bibles- there may be different interpretations, but they all say the same thing). So, we shall see.

  • Ed Senter

    Over half of the world’s population is under some form of oppressive system. It was the western Christianized/Protestant based democracies of Great Britain and USA that developed the rule of law of which the rest of the world benefits. Secularism has developed squat. And, humanism is a religion for the here and now with the only hope of death to end the pain.

    Any reasonable person can comprehend that death is not natural. Why have a mind only to end in non-existence?
    Is there an after life? The only way to find out is to die.
    You are only confused about the Bible because you are a self-deluded fool and don’t care to be not confused.

  • rationalobservations?

    It was the overthrow of oppressive totalitarian regimes of religion that allowed education and free, secular democracy to flourish and bring peace to the least religious nations in the history of our very recently evolved species of ape we call “human”. A growing number of our species are enjoying the benefits of free, peaceful secular systems of government and many who live under the oppression of religion yearn to move to our countries or establish something similar by overthrowing their religious oppressors in less free and peaceful lands.

    Any intelligent person can recognise that death is entirely natural and is the inevitable finality for all living things. Only gullibility and indoctrinated wishful thinking would imagine otherwise.

    I find that I lost all confusion about any of the many diverse and different, confused and internally contradictory editions of bibles (always PLURAL !) long ago through the in depth study of older and ever older versions back to the original 4th century fabricated prototypes that are so different from those much later works of human fictional literature in circulation today.

    The oldest bible (Codex Sinaiticus) has been available for study online since 2008 so why don’t you clear up some of your own ignorance and confusion by researching the 4th century origins of your fraudulent cult?

    Codex Sinaiticus home – http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/
    Codex Sinaiticus translation – http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/project/translation.aspx

    BEWARE: It was the study of the original Greek texts of the oldest bibles and the knowledge of the thousands of differences between those and later versions that caused many scholarly and curious previously born again, fundamentalist christians to recognise the confidence trick they had previously bought into and loose all faith in the garbage and lies you (and all others) fail to defend or excuse.

  • rationalobservations?

    You repeat myths and legends that are not supported by a single shred of historical evidence, Ed.
    I KNOW the myths and legends in many of the diverse and very different editions of Jesus cult bibles that first appeared in the 4th century but have been altered so much until the authorship of those we know today took place in and around the 17th century with further minor cult fakery within the vile and dishonest cult of the “Jehovah’s Witness / Watchtower” business and others.

    The legends of Harry Potter say that he was the “chosen one” who would defeat the “evil one” – but there is no historical or any other evidence that validates those books of human authored fiction either.

    The mythology of Hercules says that he was the son pf a god who performed miraculous deeds, was hailed as a saviour, was killed but rose again from the dead to join his omnipotent father in eternal life.

    There are many other myths and legends that are very similar to those diverse and different, confused and contradictory legends of “Jesus” and from which it is likely that so many generations of men who wrote and re-wrote and re-re-re-re-wrote bibles appear to have drawn upon for their inspiration and imaginative fiction.

    You are wrong when you assume that all bibles say “the same thing”. The oldest bible contains two whole books that are absent from current editions and current editions include and it does not have crucial verses relating to the later evolved myths of resurrection that are familiar parts of so many prior myths and legends.

    You once again merely confirm that your believe only because you have been indoctrinated with blind and unquestioning faith and have blind and unquestioning faith exclusively because you have been brainwashed to believe.
    Belief without evidence is delusion.

  • rationalobservations?

    Prove you exist.
    There are almost endless, family, friends those who I have learned from and those who I have taught who have personal evidence of my existence and the fact that you are failing to argue with me may be evidence of my existence for you. If you don’t accept the fact of my existence – why are you failing to defend you superstitions and cult to me?

    Prove the person you think is your mother is your mother.
    There is evidence of the fact that my long ago dead mother bore me – but if contradictory evidence became known to me I would accept it.

    There is some reason to accept the facts of my own existence and parentage but there is NO evidence of the veracity of the myths and legends of “Jesus” that first appeared centuries after the time in which those legends are merely set.

    At some point, one must make a mental assessment and accept it as true. Same thing with history.
    NO !
    At any given point in time one must put a “place mark” into what the evidence indicates and keep an open mind to alter what appeared to be a fact when new and/or more compelling evidence is discovered.

    Accepting myths and legends written centuries after the time in which they are set but of which no historical evidence has ever been discovered appears to be deluded and the product only of indoctrination.

    You again remind me of a number of quotes by one of the 20th century’s greatest minds:

    “It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere…. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”

    -Albert Einstein, “Religion and Science,” New York Times Magazine, November 9, 1930.

    You appear to be in a “poor way” as a human if it is really only religion that constrains you from all forms of anti-humanitarian crimes against humanity.

    “The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.”
    – Albert Einstein – Letter to philosopher Eric Gutkind, January 3, 1954.

    Most intelligent people now observe that all living things die and we reflect upon why would anyone be gullible enough or egotistical enough to believe (without reason or evidence) that there Is somehow something or anything else?
    The brief wonder of life between nonexistence and eternal nonexistence is exciting and fulfilling enough for most of us. To somehow wish for more is beyond delusion and wishful thinking.

    https://external-preview.redd.it/-_tp9rlUSXcN-lwOe0hFZJXmENSClLUjicRdSvmgQsk.jpg?width=580&auto=webp&s=54d21d494b33f3e631fa26cb31225372b44a9aca

  • Ed Senter

    Are you mocking that cartoon?
    You must be because since you have already admitted that there is very little difference between you and a chimp, and you now state that anyone who questions their existence is gullible and egotistical. What a sad sack of wasted mind.
    That cartoon succinctly points out how man is different than a chimp. I question your intelligence since you don’t get it.
    Of course Einstein questioned the God of the Bible. He is a Jew. As prophesied, the Jews would reject their Messiah at his first coming.

    A truly intelligent man would question his existence and ask “is there anything else?” Death is an anomaly.

  • Ed Senter

    What are these “crucial verses” NOT in current editions?

  • Ed Senter

    Well, death will end your pain and confusion. What do you think when you see a dead child? Do you just shrug your shoulders?

    Give me your best example of this “confidence trick”. I am sick of your platitudes.

  • rationalobservations?

    I am pain free and find no cause for confusion so your peculiar confused and confounded condition is once again apparent within your failed ad hominem.

    I am extremely sad whenever I hear of a dead or terminally ill child because this life is all that they, or anyone else, has and to have that exclusive and precious opportunity for life between nonexistence and eternal nonexistence is about as awful as anything can be.

    Any confidence trick is based upon the extraction of money or services from the mug punter with empty promises of reward “later” when “later” never comes. The alternative is the protection racket that involves the threat of misfortune or deadly outcomes if the mug punter fails to pay hard earned cash to the source of that threat.

    The concept that a mug punter should serve and pay into a cult, sect and business of religion in the hope of reward after death and on the threat of punishment after death conforms to the description of confidence trick and protection racket.

    Now give me your best example of tangible and empirical evidence in support of the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men. I am sick of your obfuscation and unsupported denial.

  • rationalobservations?

    Codex Sinaiticus includes two books that are not part of the official New Testament and at least seven books that are not in the Old Testament. Ref: the “Shepherd of Hermas” and the “Epistle of Barnabas”.

    The New Testament books are in a different order, and include numerous handwritten alterations – some made as much as 800 years after the texts were written, according to scholars who worked on the project of putting the Bible online. The changes range from the alteration of a single letter to the insertion of whole sentences and paragraphs.

    Mark 16:8-20 (twelve whole verses) is completely missing from Sinaiticus,the “gospel of Mark” ends abruptly, at 16.8, In other words, the last 12 verses (Mark 16:9 through Mark 16:20) were interpolated by “the Church” into bibles (always plural !) sometime after the 4th century prototypes were fabricated.This conclusion was supported by the fact that the claimed “early Church fathers” of the second century C.E. such as Clement of Alexandria and Origen never quoted these verses even within the “copies” that were written and mereklu attributed to Clement and Origen.Later on, it was also discovered that the said 12 verses, wherein lies the account of “the resurrection of Jesus,” do not appear in codices Syriacus, Vaticanus and Bobiensis. Originally, the “Gospel of Mark” contained no mention of the “resurrection of Jesus” (Mark 16:9-20). At least four hundred years (if not more) after the tales of departure of Jesus are set, the Church, by way of father Ariston, received divine “inspiration” to add (forge and interpolate) the story of the resurrection to the end of this Gospel and then allow Christianity to attribute these inserted verses to “Mark.”

    The author of “Codex Sinaiticus” had no doubt that the Gospel of Mark came to an end at Mark 16:8, to emphasize this point we find that immediately following this verse he brings the text to a close with a fine artistic squiggle and the words “The Gospel according to Mark.” Tischendorf was a staunch conservative Christian and as such he managed to casually brush this discrepancy aside since in his estimation the fact that Mark was not an apostle nor an eye witness to the ministry of Jesus made his account secondary to those of the apostles such as Matthew and John. However, as seen elsewhere in this book, the majority of Christian scholars today recognize the writings of Paul to be the oldest of the writings of the Bible. These are closely followed by the “Gospel of Mark” and the “Gospels of Matthew and Luke” are almost universally recognized to have been based upon the “Gospel of Mark.” This discovery was the result of centuries of detailed and painstaking studies by these Christian scholars and the details can not be repeated here. Suffice it to say that most reputable Christian scholars today recognize this as a basic indisputable fact.

    You (and other denialist religionists) have been invited to trace the history the Roman “Jesus” cult from being cobbled together from mostly pagan components in the 4th century. The publication on line of the oldest prototype bible in 2008 makes that task much easier today than it was for scholars who traveled 1000s of miles to study the oldest first texts that all date from long, long after the time in which the legends of “Jesus” are merely set.

    http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/

    There is much evidence that bibles (always plural !) and christianity are the work of man, not any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men (always plural !) of which no evidence has ever been discovered.
    .

  • rationalobservations?

    I only mock those who demonstrate their ignorance by failing to accept the mountain of evidence of and for past, current and ongoing evolution while buying into ancient myths and legends of which no evidence exists.

    The scientific fact is that we share nearly all of our DNA and a recent common ancestor with our nearest relatives among the other apes. If you are ignorant of that evidence that is your problem and your shame.
    Ignorance is not shameful in itself. The willful rejection of evidence based education and proud adherence to childish superstition based mythology and ignorance does appear shameful.

    Your sad and pathetic attempt at ad hominem is merely another demonstration of your failure to defend or justify your delusions or fraudulent religious cult.

    Again:
    Most intelligent and educated people now observe that all living things die and we reflect upon why anyone would be gullible enough or egotistical enough to believe (without reason or evidence) that there Is somehow something or anything else?

    The brief wonder of life between nonexistence and eternal nonexistence is exciting and fulfilling enough for most of us. To somehow wish for more is beyond delusion and wishful thinking.

    I await some attempt to justify, historically and scientifically validate or otherwise excuse you belief in ancient myths, legends and the lies of religions.

  • Ed Senter

    A truly intelligent man knows that there is more that he doesn’t know than he knows.
    Even the great physicists of the past century had to image the possibilities of the quantum world before they built instruments by which to “observe” their speculations. Still, they know very little.

    Your god (Mother Nature) is both cruel and wicked. Over 95% of all species that have ever existed are now extinct.
    A wise man searches for hope. The Bible offers hope no matter what version you wish to study.

  • Ed Senter

    That is a lie. Even without those verses Mark claims Jesus rose from the dead.
    “6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.” Mark 16:6

    No one has made the claim that bibles were not the “work of man”. Whether or not what is written is true or a fabrication is another issue. Your uneducated claim that they are all fabrications is an illogical conclusion and worthy of only fringe element status.

  • Ed Senter

    That is what I thought. You just shrug your shoulders at death. Wait until you are on your death bed and we will see how you feel.

    Anyone who believes that they can buy eternal life or receive eternal life as a reward is as lost as you who just shrug their shoulders at death.
    The true desire for eternal life comes from within one’s spirit and the hope to be in communion with the source and sustenance of all life. That is what the Bible reveals.

  • rationalobservations?

    What’s this nonsense about the “shrugging of shoulders”? You do get some utterly batty ideas. Maybe that goes with the delusions of religionism..

    If you truly believe you are an immortal demigod – you are even more egotistical that you have already demonstrated yourself to be.

    Accepting the fact of death in no way lessens the sad loss of a loved one or the many strangers who died in natural disasters.

    Life is even more precious when you accept that it is exclusive.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your ignorance is displayed by the fact that you do not know that Mark 16.6 is NOT to be found within the oldest 4th century prototype bible and was added with so much else by later corrupt christian scribes.
    http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/search.aspx?dd_books=&searchTarget=fulltext&searchquery=Mark+16&x=120&y=11

  • rationalobservations?

    A truly ignorant man believes that the rest of us are as ignorant as he is.
    It’s true that the rapid expansion in the sum total of all human knowledge in the past 150 years or so (matched by the decline in religion in the later part of that period) means that no individual can truly achieve the status of polymath. The expertise and specialisms within each rapid;y advancing field of science is hard enough for those specializing to keep up with. However – a good general knowledge is possible to achieve but it is a lifelong task that you appear to have shirked in favour of ancient debunked bunkum.

    I have no gods, goddesses or god-men. They’re all fictional.

  • Ed Senter

    An intelligent man who is educated soon develops wisdom thereby making use of his mind. Anyone who is happy with the concept of eternal non-existence is not wise. You have indeed made nature your idol. You are just in denial.

  • Ed Senter

    Which is it, irrational? Did the Sinaiticus end at Mark 16.8 like you said above, or did it end at 16.1 like you now claim?
    And, how do you know that verses were not removed to support some preconceived conclusion as well as added to support your conspiracy theories. Either way, you have a weak argument that garners fringe element status.

  • Ed Senter

    Do you seriously not know the meaning of the idiom ‘to shrug your shoulders’? Look it up.
    Christianity is not a search for the status of a “demigod”. It is no wonder you are so careless and uneducated.
    Christianity is the communion of man with God who is the source and sustenance of all life.
    And, the only way to connect to God is by faith.
    All life is precious because God gives it meaning.

  • Chari McCauley

    But, the problem is the same as telling a child to “Do as I say, not as I do.”
    How do children learn to lie, in the first place?

  • rationalobservations?

    Of course I recognise the meaning of the shrugging of shoulders, you moron. As indicated – I am far from indifferent to death as I know the value and unique nature of life! I accept the fact of my own death and the inevitable death of all living things. It is you who is in denial of the fact of nonexistence following the brief period of existence.

    If you imagine that you are in fact immortal – you do imagine yourself to be a demigod. Fact.

    Christianity is a confidence trick and protection racket that was founded in Rome in the 4th century. There is no evidence that contradicts that absolute fact.

    The only way to prove the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men is through evidence of their/its existence. There is none – Fact.

    All life is precious because each living thing enjoys and gives it its own meaning.

    A life wasted in ignorance and upon superstition is meaningless and shameful.

    Now give me your best example of tangible and empirical evidence in support of the existence of any of the millions of undetected and undetectable gods, goddesses and god-men. I am sick of your empty childish claims, obfuscation and unsupported denial.

  • rationalobservations?

    I don’t think you are following this thread too closely.
    Why don’t you study the actual oldest/first bible itself if you have questions about the 800 years of alteration it contains and the fact that even so it is very different from modern and other later written bibles?

    http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?book=34&chapter=16&lid=en&side=r&verse=8&zoomSlider=0

  • rationalobservations?

    Ok Ed. You had already indicated that you are nothing but a blowhard maker of claims that you have always had blow up in your face for lack of evidence.

    I have no idols (other than perhaps my wife, kids and grand-kids). Your audacious, insulting and ridiculous presumptions are risible.

    You claim that there is evidence of your god(s)? PROVE IT!

  • Ed Senter

    “No one has seen God, yet Christ has declared him.” John 1:18

    That, skeptic, is my proof, and is the only proof to this fallen world.

  • Ed Senter

    Any differences which you claim to support your heavily biased speculations are miniscule.
    What you lack is the courage to faith.
    Given the many interpretations expressed over the very same text, none have concluded that Jesus did not exist.

  • Ed Senter

    The proof of a prophet is whether or not what he says comes to pass.
    Read any Bible for its content and connect the dots. Even avowed scholars have difficulty with that task. But there are those of us who can connect the dots though are numbers are few.
    Seek and you shall find.
    Prophecy is being fulfilled even in these modern times. That little nation of Israel surrounded by nothing but enemies whose strongest supporters are Great Britain and the USA. Most significant is the recent moving of the American embassy to Jerusalem. The time is ripe for a peace maker to enter the stage. He will be a leader of a 10 nation confederacy. But he will be a false christ. Then all hell will break loose until Israel cries out for their true Messiah. God will draw the nations of the world to the plains of Megiddo prepared for war. Then Christ will return in the clouds and destroy Israel’s enemies then restore the kingdom to Israel for 1000 years. Israel will then take the gospel of Christ to the world.

  • rationalobservations?

    Words written by an anonymous author in the late 4th century are evidence of the fabrication of myths and legends. Nothing else.

    The only “proof” is nothing but fantasy and fiction and this peaceful, educated secular and democratic developed world has moved beyond such infantile and ridiculous superstitions.

    I am glad that you have come to accept the fact that there is no evidence. Only human authored mythology.

  • rationalobservations?

    Two whole missing books and many missing references to resurrection, no last words on the cross and some 17,000 discrepancies is hardly “miniscule”. But your ignorance of the facts and habit of recycling lies and propaganda is long established and no surprise.

    I lack the gullibility and ignorance that allows blind and unquestioning faith of the kind you fail to defend or excuse.

    Ever fewer conclude that “Jesus” existed and NO ONE HAS FOUND EVIDENCE OF THE EXISTENCE OF JESUS.

  • rationalobservations?

    Repeating garbage and recycled propaganda fails to validate it.

    There is no historical evidence in support of the mythology you buy into.

  • Ed Senter

    Yes, there is. You are just too blind to see it.

  • Ed Senter

    Many other sources fill in the blanks. I am not a bibliolater. The central message is the same: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.”
    I particularly found The Gospel of Barnabas interesting. He talked about the 10 horns of Daniel and the coming man of sin (anti-christ).

    You are like the man on trial who faces the death penalty and denies his counsel the ability to enter any and all evidence in his defense. Too stupid…

  • Ed Senter

    What is “infantile and ridiculous” is your scholarship.
    What is truly mythical and superstitious is your faith is Utopia. Truly delusional.
    You have signed your own death warrant.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your garbage has been recycled since the 5th century but this nonsense remains delusional nonsense.

    “Jesus” failed to meet the description of the “Messiah” according to all the contradictory legends and fables and the “true Messiah” must fulfill the prophesies within his lifetime.

    Your infantile claims are debunked bunkum.

  • rationalobservations?

    You would be hilarious if you were not so pathetic.

    Your myths are all busted and your bunkum remains debunked.

  • rationalobservations?

    You admit your condition of ignorance yet continue to deny the scholarship that confounds you.
    Your dishonesty and delusional condition was already obvious but your arrogance and egotism are fascinating from one with so little to be arrogant about.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your myths are already busted and your bunkum remains debunked.

    Your own death and inevitable nonexistence is just as certain as mine and all other temporarily living things.
    Life goes on while every individual living thing dies sooner or later.

    Your childish superstitions and infantile wishful thinking will make no difference to your demise.

  • Ed Senter

    You worship a cruel god.
    We shall soon see who is correct.

  • Ed Senter

    You have provided absolutely no scholarship. Instead, you offer conclusions based on platitudes. You can’t argue the substance of what is written, so you attack its veracity.
    What we have are writings that support evidence of eternal life. But you desire death and are in denial.

  • Ed Senter

    Why are you relying on Jewish interpretations?
    The Bible said that the Jews were blind and that the Messiah would be rejected.
    Jesus first came to fulfill the Law and die on that cross.
    Jesus will come again in the clouds when the Jews cry out: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. The book of Zechariah details all of this.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your childish garbage is ridiculous.
    Dead eyes see nothing.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your lies have extensively been exposed and refuted.
    There is no historical support for the fictional literatures that are all you can reference.

    You argue that literature validates itself. Good luck hunting for Harry Potter.

    Your nonsense is risible.

  • rationalobservations?

    Your whole pathetic cult is Jewish based.

    Your bunkum remains debunked.

  • Ed Senter

    This is the time for the Gentiles. Once the number of Gentiles is reached, God will deal with the Jews. Their blindness is only temporary.

  • Ed Senter

    No, I argue that the proof is in the pudding. If it comes to pass, then it was always true.
    The Resurrection is a fact. If God keeps that promise, then I trust he will keep them all.

  • Ed Senter

    That is why we have an everlasting soul. We are aware that we are aware.
    Do you honestly believe the mind is a product of evolution?

  • rationalobservations?

    Your trust in human authored mythology is merely a further indication of your pathetic ignorance and gullibility.

    The dead remains dead.
    Stories are not history.
    Fiction is not evidence.
    Your delusions are not “proof” of anything but your ignorance and gullibility.

  • rationalobservations?

    All life and all aspects of life are the result of evolution.

  • rationalobservations?

    Recycling myths is pointless.
    Your myths are busted and your bunkum remains debunked.

  • Ed Senter

    The Jewish interpretation versus the Christian interpretation does not equal a contradiction.
    You have busted nothing, bonzo, save the rules of logic.

  • Ed Senter

    But there is only one form of life that is aware that he is aware- that is man, at least most of them.
    Adam was the first man made in God’s image which quite possibly was awareness.

  • Ed Senter

    The truly ignorant and gullible are those who believe in Utopia/humanism.
    It would take an all-mighty supreme being to create and sustain such a world.

  • rationalobservations?

    Repeating nonsensical garbage fails to make it any less ridiculous.

    We know that you believe nonsense only because you have been indoctrinated with blind and unquestioning gullibility and have blind and unquestioning gullibility exclusively because you have been brainwashed to believe in bunkum.

  • rationalobservations?

    Our closest cousins among the other apes share most of our DNA and a common ancestor along with a self evident self awareness and sense of fair play and altruism that we and they have acquired through evolution.

    “Adam” !???
    Really?

    Repeating nonsensical garbage fails to make it any less ridiculous.

    We know that you believe myths, lies and nonsense only because you have been indoctrinated with blind and unquestioning gullibility and have blind and unquestioning gullibility exclusively because you have been brainwashed to believe in bunkum.

    Creationists and Scientific Logic
    Scott Anderson

    “Creationists are of the opinion that creationism constitutes a better explanation of the evolutionary process? By what standard would they consider it better? Creationism demands that the logic of the scientific method be abandoned in favor of whatever logic one might be able to scrape out of the Bible.

    Special creationism demands that we believe that some six thousand years ago the universe was magically created, with the sun appearing long after plants, and man apparently living concurrently with carnivorous animals (perhaps including dinosaurs). It demands that all the planetary evidence that coincides with evolutionary theory (the geologic table, continental drift, erosion, et cetera), all the biological evidence (DNA, biochemistry, microbiology, anthropology, et cetera), all the historical evidence (the fossil record, archaeology, anthropology, et cetera), all the astronomical evidence (quantum singularities, the age of stars, the history of the universe, et cetera) has been misinterpreted. The evidence from physics and chemistry (the speed of light, the laws of thermodynamics, amino acids and proteins, et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad absurdum) have all been misinterpreted. And I’m even leaving out several fields.

    They are all in error, I take it? Why, then, has it all seemed to fit so well? Was it a conspiracy, or was it simply science’s way of hiding the fact that they had no idea?

    Creationists still have to show that science is, in fact, wrong. This must first occur before they can begin postulating how the errors (as they must call them) persisted for so long. Creationists are more than happy to accept scientific reasoning but are unwilling to accept the conclusions. That’s why the battle is not creation versus evolution. Perhaps many creationists believe that, but it is not the case.

    The same thoughts and processes thereof that led to the theory of evolution exist in all branches of science. It’s called the scientific method. In addition, evolution gets direct and indirect support from a thousand different facts from every constellation in the sky of science. In addition, evolution gives direct and indirect support to every constellation. Science is not a batch of unrelated theories – science is a unit.

    To replace evolution with creationism would dictate that we throw out all the data we have about the age of the universe (all of it points to billions of years, not thousands). We would have to throw away the psychological data gained from testing on, for instance, lab rats. How could the data from rats relate in any way to the inspired, specially created souls of human beings? Anthropology would have to be dispensed with. Archaeology would find itself in the trash bin. Biology books would be so much toilet paper. In short, a thousand different independent but strangely cohesive facts and theories – a million tidbits of knowledge about ourselves and our world – would have to be destroyed in favor of magic and mysticism.

    We’ve been through that before – it was called the Dark Ages. I see no logical reason why we should return to them. “

  • rationalobservations?

    From the content of the Hebrew mythology / “Old Testament” – it appears that the originally Canaanite god “Yahweh” is the most cruel, bloodthirsty, barbaric, murderous, genocidal, mindlessly selfish and disgustingly self obsessed deity of all. If it existed it is you who “worship a cruel god.”.

    Dead eyes see nothing….

  • rationalobservations?

    Repeating nonsensical garbage fails to make it any less ridiculous.

    There is no need for “interpretation” regarding the almost endless contradictions within and between all the diverse and different versions of human authored bibles that have been fabricated since the 4th century Roman religion they called “christianity” was so brutally imposed upon the world.

    We know that you believe nonsense only because you have been indoctrinated with blind and unquestioning gullibility and have blind and unquestioning gullibility exclusively because you have been brainwashed to believe in bunkum.

    Your sad failure to defend or justify your indoctrinated fantasies is obvious for all to observe. You retain my sympathy but earn no respect.

  • Ed Senter

    Hey, bonzo, wherever did you get the idea that I was a young earth creationist? You presume in error.
    There is an enormous gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

    Besides, how we got here is open to way too much speculation. You are simply not intelligent enough to understand that.
    The more pressing issue is why is there death? If life evolves, why can it not continue to regenerate?

  • rationalobservations?

    If life evolved to the point that death ceased – evolution would also cease and life would atrophy and decline.
    Death is nothing to fear as you won’t know that you have ceased to exist any more than you were aware that you did not exist before you were born.

    There is an enormous gap of credibility between logic, evidence and the truth – and both wacko versions of the ancient Hebrew creation myths. Nothing indicates anything but to different versions of the same ignorance based garbage.

    Repeating nonsensical garbage fails to make it any less ridiculous.

    There is no need for “interpretation” regarding the almost endless contradictions within and between all the diverse and different versions of human authored bibles that have been fabricated since the 4th century Roman religion they called “christianity” was so brutally imposed upon the world.

    We know that you believe nonsense only because you have been indoctrinated with blind and unquestioning gullibility and have blind and unquestioning gullibility exclusively because you have been brainwashed to believe in bunkum.

    Your sad failure to defend or justify your indoctrinated fantasies is obvious for all to observe. You retain my sincere sympathy but earn no respect.

  • Ed Senter

    The one who is “indoctrinated, gullible, and brainwashed” is you as evidenced by your lack of biblical scholarship, broad pontifications and conclusions, and total lack of imagination as well as intelligence.
    Anyone who has accepted death as a finality has truly wasted their mind.

  • rationalobservations?

    Hahaha. Hilarious!

    Your ignorance and gullibility is self evident in each of your infantile and evidence devoid entries.

    Your bunkum remains debunked.