Christians Go To Hell [Just Like Everyone Else]

Christians Go To Hell [Just Like Everyone Else] October 10, 2019

“And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.” – Jesus [Mark 9:47-49]

Yes, according to Jesus, and also to the Apostle Paul [and most of the early Church Fathers for the first 500 years of Church History], EVERYONE will pass through the fires of judgement – not just those who die without Christ – everyone.

Paul puts it this way:

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—  each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” [1 Cor. 3:12-15]

So, even if you have prayed the prayer and walked the aisle and completed the membership class and been baptized by the Senior Pastor, the fact is that you will still have to pass through the fires of judgement.

Hell, it seems, is an unavoidable reality for every human being.

In contrast to what most Christians today teach, the New Testament affirms that all will pass through the fire, but it’s the nature and purpose and duration of that fire that some Christians debate over.

In fact, it’s been this way from the very beginning of Church History. From the earliest recorded history of the Christian Church, there have always been three different views of the afterlife: Annihilation [or Conditional Immortality], Eternal Torment, and Patristic Universalism [or Apokatastasis].

All three views have some things in common:

*They all believe that those without Christ will pass through the fire

*They all believe this fire will involve some form of judgment for our behavior in this life

*They all believe that this fire will be unpleasant

Here’s what the three views disagree about:

*The purpose of the fire

*The duration of the fire

*The nature of the fire

I’ve just completed my final draft on a new book which covers this topic in great detail called “Jesus Undefeated: Condemning the False Doctrine of Eternal Torment” which will be available on Amazon November 9, 2019.

In the course of researching and writing this book I’ve come to realize a few things about this doctrine:

*Eternal Torment is the weakest of the three views of the afterlife

*Patristic Universalism was the dominant [majority] view of the Church for about 500 years

*Annihilation and Patristic Universalism have the strongest Scriptural support of the three views

*Most of the verses supporting Eternal Torment are misunderstandings of Old Testament Apocalyptic Hyperbole statements borrowed from Jeremiah, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel and other prophets

*The Eternal Torment view does not appear in any Old Testament texts

*The Eternal Torment view originated from pagan sources and influences which crept into Judaism in the Intertestamental period between the end of the Old Covenant and the coming of Christ

*Paul the Apostle is the strongest proponent of the Patristic Universalist view – without Paul’s writings there would be no evidence for Universalism

What I hope to accomplish in my new book is to help Christians today realize these shocking truths and to open their minds to the possibility that the Eternal Hell they believe – and have been indoctrinated to see when they read the Scriptures – doesn’t actually exist in the way they think it does.

Not only this, I hope to show Christians that God is better than they think He is, and that the Good News of the Gospel is even greater news than they ever dared imagine.

Chances are, if you grew up in the Christian Church like I did, you’ve never been told any of these things about the history of the early church, the dominant view of Universalism for the first 500 years, the fact that there have always been three views of the afterlife, and that what Jesus is talking about when he says “the worm does not die and the fires are not quenched” has nothing to do with happens to us after we die.

I know that, for many, these concepts are just too unbelievable to accept. But, my hope is that some will be ready to listen to the truth and to examine their assumptions about Hell and the afterlife with an open mind, and an open Bible.

Hopefully we can expose the false doctrine of Eternal Torment once and for all and return to the original doctrine of the Christian Church that proclaimed ultimate reconciliation for everyone and total forgiveness and boundless love for every human soul.

“It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.” [Hebrews 12:7-11]

“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.” [1 Tim. 4:10]

“…In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.” [2 Cor. 5:19]

**

Keith Giles was formerly a licensed and ordained minister who walked away from organized church 11 years ago, to start a home fellowship that gave away 100% of the offering to the poor in the community. Today, He and his wife are returning to El Paso, TX after 25 years, as part of their next adventure.

Are you an aspiring author? Keith is leading an Author’s Academy starting Nov. 4. Learn how to become a full-time author and crack the code for building your platform and marketing your books online. Details HERE.
Keith’s newest book, “Jesus Unveiled: Forsaking Church As We Know It For Ekklesia As God Intended” released on June 9, 2019 on Amazon, and features a Foreword by author Richard Jacobson.
Keith next book, “Jesus Undefeated: Condemning the False Doctrine of Eternal Torment” releases Nov. 9, 2019 on Amazon and features a Foreword by author Brad Jersak.
Keith’s Podcast: Heretic Happy Hour Podcast is on iTunes and Podbean. 

Can’t get enough? Get great bonus content: 
Patreon page.

 


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  • A. Paul

    Thanks for a great article… I recognize much of my own spiritual journey in it. Raised a Roman Catholic, I’ve traveled past that into evangelical protestantism and after several decades of nothing back to Catholicism again… only to leave feeling empty and without a real religious anchor to hold my soul together. Then one day I asked myself, what if I just assume and totally accept the idea as a fact that God really does love me, regardless of religious tradition or personal merit… what if She loves us unconditionally with no further stipulations? This then became my starting point and it has made all the difference because it led me to new studies where I started to see that the early church actually knew nothing of a “hell doctrine” and that Jesus spoke of a hell far different from the hell fire and brimstone concocted by the evangelical mind in the centuries that followed.

    I’ve since left the “church”… what has actually, in my opinion and experience, evolved into a churchianity based more on doctrines of faith and institutional belief and teachings rather than any real spiritual search for the reality of God and our relationship to Her. It is my belief that the real problem, in a nutshell, is that christians today worship a very small and rather impotent god… one who is almost defeated at every turn in the course of human existence. He is an angry, judgmental kind of divine voyer wondering how things could have gone so wrong — with the exception of the relatively small handful of evangelicals who are so assured by their pastors that only they have it right. Frankly, I just can’t trust a god like that… he doesn’t make me feel loved or safe, just threatened. That’s not what I see when I look at Jesus… and that’s not what the Spirit is telling me now.

  • Roger Wolsey

    Nice work. Like William Barcaly before me, I embrace universal salvation when it comes to the here after. In the here and now, clearly people vary greatly in terms of how much salvation (wholeness/well-being/healing) they feel and know. That said, it is good to remind us that “hell” isn’t even found in the Bible at all. It’s not a Judeo-Christian term or concept. It’s a germanic pagan term that has been imposed into various translations of the Bible. To the extent that there are hells – they’re the ones that many people experience here and now. See: “To Hell with Hell Patheos” https://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogerwolsey/2015/03/to-hell-with-hell/
    – Roger Wolsey, author, Kissing Fish: christianity for people who don’t like christianity

  • N T

    Great Book — I look forward to reading it !
    Just to ask if you’ve wrestled with the word “eternal”.
    I do indeed believe in “eternal punishment” as mentioned in Mat. 25:46
    in the sense of the punishment of the age to come.
    But I worry that most think this means never-ending punishment.
    As much as possible, I steer people away from the word eternal when they mean everlasting.

  • richdixon

    Sorry…have to disagree.

    We were created for community with God. Since God cannot be in community with sin, Jesus died to bridge the gap – the broken community – created by the Fall.

    Hell, I believe, is eternal separation from God, eternal loss of the connection for which we were created. Eternal loneliness and purposelessness.

    Without Jesus, that’s my fate because I can never bridge that gap on my own.

    Rom 9:38-39 assures me that NOTHING can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Ever.

    Jesus endured that separation (“Why have You forsaken Me?”) even though He didn’t deserve it. He literally went to hell…and somehow, His sacrifice washes my sin. He chose hell, the horror of separation from God’s love, so I’d never have to endure it.

    My faith in Jesus, however imperfect, brings me into community with Him because of His sacrifice.

    It’s the most basic promise of the Gospel. I’m grateful.

  • KontraDiction

    Yes! Thank you for sharing this. I was raised Catholic as well, and been an atheist my entire life because none of it made any sense. I’m only just starting to inch toward some idea of God, and I’ve found the same thing you have – unless it’s a being of pure unconditional love, it’s both terrifying and unbelievable. Doctrines and dogma are useless and only serve to divide and harm. What I need, what we all need, is a unifying sense of love poured into us and flowing out of us.

    Toward this goal, I’ve found the teachings of Richard Rohr to be really inspiring and easy to understand. I do love the character & teachings of Jesus, and can glean a lot of truth from him/them, there’s just a lot of culture & language in between, so I’ve learned to tread lightly. Whether it’s historically true or story-truth is irrelevant to me, nor do I especially care what happens after we die. I just want to live my best life now, and to do that by learning to love well.

    Peace!

  • Herm

    Luke 14:25-27
    Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: [26] “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. [27] And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    rich, if “He chose hell, the horror of separation from God’s love, so I’d never have to endure it“, why, to be Jesus’ student, I must carry my own cross? How do you read Luke 14:25-27? Are you a student of Jesus’ or a student of your carnal birth, church and/or tribe family?

  • A. Paul

    Thank you… I appreciate your comments.

    I have also been greatly moved by the writings of Father Richard Rohr… Like you perhaps, he has taken me to a place from which I have learned to mine a richer and more authentic spiritual experience far greater than anything I have ever known or received from simply learning to lean on church doctrine. From Father Rohr I learned that life is never a divisive “either/or” proposition, that we need to start thinking in a more inclusive non-dual fashion where everything is a basic unity, where there are no true contradictions… only paradox. Knowing this and internalizing it is only one step on that never-ending journey toward spiritual consciousness.

    I believe you’ve hit the mark exactly when you write: ” I just want to live my best life now, and to do that by learning to love well.” Love is indeed the only reality which can bring about true change in our lives and by extension, the world entire. But how does one learn to love unless we ourselves come to believe that we are loved? And how can we know that unless we can fully get on board with the fact that The Divinity loves us unconditionally? Richard Rohr has taught me to tear down the wall between black & white, gay & straight, liberal & conservative, and so forth. I’ve grown to think of myself, not so much as a christian (a word which has some pretty sad connotations these days), but as a sort of Everyman, an individual spirit which is part of The Great Spirit. As the Zen Master Thich Naht Hahn says, Christianity, like Buddhism or Hinduism, does not gain its purchase on life because of what we believe but rather in the authentic practice of those beliefs.

    I will end by quoting something which Hahn wrote in his book, Living Buddha, Living Christ: “We do not have to die to arrive at the gates of Heaven. In fact, we have to be fully alive. The practice is to touch life deeply so that the Kingdom of God becomes a reality. This is not a matter of devotion. It is a matter of practice. The Kingdom of God is available here and now…. Because God the Son is made of the energy of the Holy Spirit, He is the door for us to enter the Kingdom of God.” I just love that because, for me at least, it tells me all I need to know about this mystery we call “life”.

  • richdixon

    Hi Herm. I follow Jesus, as best I can. I don’t take those verses literally, so He didn’t mean I must literally “hate” my family or die on a cross. I take them to mean that He comes first, and that following him means I’m willing to sacrifice anything – even my life – to be His disciple.

    Sorry you felt the need to question the sincerity of my faith.

  • Herm

    Thanks Rich, for your kind reply. I do not question your sincerity of faith. You are clearly speaking boldly and honestly. No less honest and sincere than any fundamentalist of any of the Abrahamic Faiths, trained from their carnal childhood according to interpretations of God/Jehovah/Allah’s will by their carnal birth, church and/or tribe’s teachers.

    Are you able to take the following literally?

    John 14:15-21 NIV
    “If you love me, keep my commands. [16] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [17] the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. [18] I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [19] Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [20] On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [21] Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    Do you know the Spirit of truth, Jesus and the Father of the family of God in you as your only one Teacher, Instructor, and Father?

  • NT – I deal with this in great detail in my upcoming book, “Jesus Undefeated: Condemning the False Doctrine of Eternal Torment” which comes out Nov. 9.

  • richdixon

    Thanks Herm. I think it’s best if we let this discussion go.

    God bless.

  • KontraDiction

    That is the deepest thing I’ve read all week. I’m grateful.

    I’m adding that book to my list, for sure. What an amazing quote! It’s not about belief, but practice. Love is a verb. Here and now are all we have, so it HAS to be in the present, not after we die. I’ve sleepwalked through most of my life, feeling separate from others and certainly from God. Now I want to wake up, feel everything, and see clearly that it really is all One. One path, one life, one body, one love for us all. So beautiful. Of course a growing comfort with paradox and mystery certainly help! I don’t want to be “right” anymore, I want to be alive.

    You’re right, it’s very hard to love people unless you know you yourself are deeply loved. I’m learning to appreciate all the daily gifts of life as tokens of divine love. Every beautiful sight, smell, taste, just raining down on us all the time, it’s astonishingly generous, especially given how freely we ignore most of it.

    If labels like Kingdom of God, or Son, or Holy Spirit, help me understand this ultimate unity, I’ll keep them. If not, I’ll let them go for now. What an amazing journey we’re privileged to walk together!

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I am not really sure what in universalism is contradicted by anything in the above?
    Hell is very much part if universalist thought, as Keith says, and it is indeed separation from God, the only issue is that it is temporary because Jesus has bridged the gap between that we could not otherwise cross to bring us all out, exactly as you say. That is basically the whole concept.

  • A. Paul

    “I don’t want to be “right” anymore, I want to be alive…. Every beautiful sight, smell, taste, just raining down on us all the time, it’s astonishingly generous, especially given how freely we ignore most of it.”

    WOW!!! I do believe that you are beginning to awaken…

    Thank you for sharing…. sometimes it feels awfully lonesome out here all by myself. It’s always a gift to have a traveling companion.

  • Herm

    It is your choice to let this discussion go. I will witness, as the Messiah’s sibling student in God, that both testaments that quote Jesus above can be taken literally. There is no physical church on earth that is the only church administered by Jesus, for Jesus’ church is spirit and in the Spirit of truth only. Jesus will teach you this personally, if and when you allow the Holy Spirit to fill you forever, without pause. God blesses all of mankind graced their image, which is awareness and influence in spirit. The dead, carnal and spirit, know nothing never again to influence any other.

  • Patrick Genereux

    Good job start on the “Hell” thing…now to tackle the “God” issue!

  • Jon-Michael Ivey

    It was by understanding that Conditional Immortality was the original Christian doctrine, with Patristic Universalism being an innovation which developed near the end of the 1st century and Eternal Torment another innovation that developed about a century later than that. The first Christians did not have a notion of an immortal immaterial soul and the first who adopted such a Greek idea considered Universalism the only theory compatible with immortal souls and the nature of a loving God. Tertullian was an early proponent of the Eternal Torment view, but it remained very unpopular until Augustine argued for it.

  • Herm

    savor, empathize, savor, grieve, savor, forgive, savor, share, savor

    ___ love this opportunity to be responsible for your graced awareness and influence, both carnal and spirit, in the image of God

    …. value all others, carnal and spirit, doing first to all others as you would have all others do to you

    …do this and you will grow to know the love of all God in you, as yourself, as a child of and in God on earth, which is carnal, and in heaven, which is spirit

  • Middie Wood

    You’ve confused sanctification with justification, though I suppose you don’t like those words. I hope noone interested in knowing Jesus reads this.

    Universalists and others who have made themselves a new Jesus and new gospel can continue to congratulate each other with books and applause. They’ll all end up in front of the judgement seat of Christ. Maybe then, when they realise who much they’ve distorted the name and person of the Holy One of Israel, they’ll have time to repent and join the bride of Christ.

    I hope so. Come Lord Jesus

  • Middie Wood

    I’ve tried to get my head around rich and herm’s discussion here. I believe in the gospel, as outlined by rich, and also the need to be indwelt and led into all truth by the Holy Spirit. Struggling to see where their disagreement is.

    Universalism is not what is taught in the Bible anywhere, no matter how many times you say so.

    You will find yourself as solitary as Jesus himself oneday, answering Him for your life. If you’re in Him, you’ll continue to be. If you’re not you’ll continue to be. Hell is a pretty good word for the latter

  • Middie Wood

    “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves Or do you not realise this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test! I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test.” 2 Cor 13

  • Iain Lovejoy

    “Universalism is not what is taught in the Bible anywhere, no matter how many times you say so.”
    Except for:
    2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
    John 12:32: “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself”
    1 Timothy 2:3-5:..God our Saviour, who wills that all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth, for there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all.
    1 Corinthians 15:22: For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
    Colossians 1:20: “And through him to reconcile all things to himself, whether on earth or in heaven, having made peace by the blood of his cross.
    Ephesians 1:9-10: “… the secret of his will, as was his pleasure, that he purposed in himself, to arrange in the fulness of time to unite in one all things in Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth.”
    Isaiah 66:23: “From new moon to new moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the Lord.”
    1 John 2:2: “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”
    Titus 2:11:”For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.”
    Philippians 2:10-11: “So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue freely confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
    2 Corinthians 5:19: “in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them.”
    Romans 11:32: “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.”
    1 Corinthians 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.”
    Romans 14:11: “For it is written, ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall freely acclaim God.’”
    Romans 5:18: “Therefore, as by one trespass was for all men condemnation, so from one act of righteousness is for all men acquittal and life.”

  • Herm

    John 14:15-31
    15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—
    17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

    23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

    25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

    28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.

    Middie, you judgmentally have made two statements that indicate that Jesus and our Father has not made their home with you. Your understanding of Keith’s relationship with Jesus truly sounds like Caiaphas’ understanding of Jesus’ relationship with and in God. The two clear indicators are:

    1.) “I hope noone interested in knowing Jesus reads this.

    2.) “Come Lord Jesus

    Jesus is here, right now, in his sibling disciples on earth and they in him. You don’t know that. You spout theology, doctrine and dogma taught to you by carnal “Christian” church teachers. If you knew the Spirit of truth filling you you would boldly speak the word of God, apropos to this moment, not 1,950 + years ago.

    If you truly are “interested in knowing Jesus“, in all humility, invite the Holy Spirit to fill you forever more, without pause.

    When you see to accept the Spirit guiding you into all truth you will change to in everything doing first to all others, regardless of faith base maturity, as you would have all others do to you. I empathize to truly wish you well. You are loved.

  • fractal

    Hell has been discussed/described by almost all religious traditions; it seems to be a part of the collective unconscious.
    It is only in the Abrahamic Triad that hell is seen as truly eternal.
    Interestingly, it is only the Abrahamic traditions that sees any God as both omnipotent and everlasting.

    Perhaps if we loosened our grip on dogma a bit, and opened our perspective, we might gain more insight into this psychological and spiritual phenomenon.

  • Gary

    I don’t believe that the Bible teaches universalism. It teaches that believers are eternally with God and unbelievers go to Hell. See John 3:16-18.

  • Herm

    What in John 3:16-18 speaks to “Hell”?

  • AntithiChrist

    Dang. I was really looking forward to a Christian-free zone for once.

  • KontraDiction

    “savor, empathize, savor, grieve, savor, forgive, savor, share, savor”- I love this! Culturally and individually, we’re so eager to numb pain instead of understand what it’s trying to tell us. It’s not always bad! It can push us to correct things that we’re doing wrong. Or even just point out how much we love someone, when we fear for them, or grieve over them, or even get angry at them.

    A past version of me would have dismissed the formulation of your last line as so confusing as to be meaningless, but lately I’m finding it’s more like the opposite – so much meaning that it’s hard to fit it all in! Once in a while words fail and I’m “surprised by joy.” Makes all this stumbling worthwhile.

  • Gary

    “perish” verse 16, “condemned” verse 18. According to the New Testament, people either go to Heaven or Hell when they die. And it says most go to Hell, according to Jesus. Matthew 7:13,14

  • Gary

    You shall have it. There are no Christians in Hell.

  • AntithiChrist

    Hard to imagine you saying that without seeing you tightly wringing your hands together, grinning a demented looking evil grin and cackling out a maniacal laugh…

    I mean, thank you for your loving words and witness, godly Christian.

  • CO Fines

    If I’m grasping the right understanding of those opposing the idea of Jesus reconciling all creation, Jesus came to save us from his Father, who was bent on torturing us forever because we are not perfect. You might say Jesus took the bullet for us. This is known as the Good News, well at least if you know the password. Otherwise you are toast. Tell me again, how did Jesus get back out of hell? Would that work for me?

  • Herm

    John 3:5-21
    5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
    6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
    8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
    9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
    10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
    15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

    16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
    17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

    Matthew 7:13-14
    13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    Gary, your carnal religious teachers cloud your reading comprehension. You are not born of the Spirit or else he would be your one Teacher guiding you into all truth. No where, in your scripture references does Jesus, the Messiah, or the book of John, or the book of Matthew say that those not born of the Spirit of truth would be “condemned” to “Hell”, or any form of eternal living torture. Those who do not love the Lord their God with all their spirit self (heart, soul, strength, mind), in the image of God, and like that love their merciful neighbor as themselves, will not live … they will die … they will cease to be aware and influential both in carnal life on earth and spirit life in heaven.

    Now, other than a blind assumption, “what in John 3:16-18 speaks to “Hell””? … or is being self condemned to becoming eternally dead “Hell” to you? There are others that could live or die on your spoken judgment. The “Christian Bible” does not teach anything, it is purely an edited testimony (6,000 year old testaments and 2,000 year new testaments) chronicling the authors’ evolving relationship with God. The Holy Spirit can teach all on earth who humbly seek, knock and ask. The following testimonial scripture is the only way to speak the word of God, filled (baptized), by the Holy Spirit, then and now.

    Acts 4:29-31
    29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
    31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

    Please, realize that the Advocate that Jesus sent to his sibling students, not leaving us orphaned on earth, can teach us how to glean truth from all documents today, including from the “Christian Bible”, the “Muslim Qur’an”, a blog article, a newspaper, … . The Spirit of truth teaches all how better to, in everything, do to all others first as we would have any other do to us. Doing that we live. Not doing that we are self condemned to die.

  • Herm

    Why not?

    Do all “Christians” that you know meet all the qualifications of the following scripture?

    Luke 14:25-27
    25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said:
    26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

    John 14:15-21
    15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    Luke 10:27-28
    27 He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
    28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

    Do you?

  • Gary

    You have your beliefs, and I have mine.

  • Herm

    Gary, I had a belief in and of God for 50 years, sprinkled and immersed, trained, and ordained but was not filled with the Holy Spirit without end and without pause. For the last 25 years I’ve had a growing relationship as a young child of and in God. Today, I know God as my family, no less than I knew my carnal family when a young child of Man.

    For your sake, and those that you try to impress with your bible prowess, I have to testify that the God you debate as a “belief” is actually real and available to you today. There is no ritual, creed, sacrament, immersion or sprinkling, religious membership, or “belief” on earth that can guide any of Man into all the truth, or save them from a final merciful death … knowing nothing … influencing nothing. Only those born of the Spirit, John 14:15-21, can be led into all truth forever. To know the truth is not the same as having a belief. The Bible cannot teach any truth of Man or God (it is a book of testimony, not the living word of God), the Spirit can and does, all the while living with and in each student (disciple) forever. He speaks to each of us what he hears from our brother the Messiah (the one Instructor) and our Father, the Father of all children of God.

    John 16:12-13
    12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

    We can bear much more today than our sisters and brothers, who were on earth over 1,950 years ago, when Jesus first spoke those words. True to his word, we have not been left orphaned, nor ever will be.

  • Desperate Ambrose

    Congratulations, Mr. Giles. You have just discovered something Catholics have known about for centuries, to wit: Purgatory

  • Jesse H

    You appear to be confusing initial salvation and discipleship.

  • Jesse H

    I think that’s a sanctification verse.

  • Herm

    Jesse, no confusion here, but I would love to hear how you judge such an appearance.

    Let me help you a little.

    Salvation from what, to what?

    What is the difference between “initial” and post salvation?

    Can you live eternally without being born of the Spirit? … born as what? …a child of God, perhaps? …sibling of the Son of God, maybe? …as each disciple (student) of the Messiah is?

    There are red letter references to each leading question in the canonized “Christian” bible. Perhaps, my reading comprehension is lacking here, and I’m reading only what I want to read. I would appreciate your help to show me where I am confused, please.

  • Jesse H

    I’m sure you’ve heard of the 3 tenses of salvation right?
    Justification, sanctification, glorification.

  • Herm

    Jesse, we are not talking theology, doctrine or dogma for none have anything to do with the Spirit of truth, the rock upon which Jesus builds his church.

    Support your judgment from the four gospels, available to both of us. You appear not to be filled with the Holy Spirit to teach you as the Messiah instructs all his sibling students today; John 16:13.

    “And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple” Luke 14:27

    Disciples of Christ carry their own cross in the example of the brother and the will of their Father today. Jesus did not die on the cross for the sins, transgressions against the law (summed up in Matthew 7:12), of the first male and female of mankind 200,000 years earlier. Jesus did not die to justify or sanctify mankind to glorify God; Father, Son, Holy Spirit, mother, and children, all of God. The Spirit of truth glorifies God today, that the children of God would not be left orphaned, and he would not have come if Jesus hadn’t left. Jesus died because the institution of his religion didn’t know God in their midst; neither the Pharisees, Sadducees or Essenes (all with different and competitive theologies, doctrines and dogmas). Do you know God in your midst? Do you know God in your heart, soul, strength, mind?

    John 3:5-8
    5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
    6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
    7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
    8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

    If you’re sincere about helping my confusion and supporting those who might be reading this, please, use the Bible Testaments or speak the word of God boldly, as exampled in Acts 4:31, to support all of us, thank you.

  • Middie Wood

    I am, as I thought was obvious, talking about my Lord’s second and final coming. As per John’s prayer at the end of Revelations

    “He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”

    Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

    The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.”

  • Herm

    Revelation 22:17
    The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

    Oh, Middie, it was obvious what you were speaking to. Jesus is here, with and in all who have taken the free gift of the water of life, the Spirit of truth.

    John 14:15-21 NIV
    “If you love me, keep my commands. [16] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— [17] the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. [18] I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. [19] Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. [20] On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. [21] Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 4:13-14 NIV
    Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, [14] but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

    God is spirit. By God’s love and grace their image was made in the carnal animal species mankind, which is spirit, that mankind and God can communicate, carnal to spirit, spirit to carnal. Jesus was of spirit first (Son of God), then born of carnal (Son of Man). Carnal life is temporary for each member. Spirit life is eternal for each member. Accepting to drink of the Spirit of truth gives birth from carnal to spirit. Jesus came back “soon” as promised to his sibling students (children of God living with and in the Holy Spirit, the Father in Jesus, Jesus in the Father, the Messiah’s disciples in him, and he in them). For all, regardless of religion, tribe or carnal birth, who see to know and accept the Spirit of truth to fill them without pause, without end, are born of the spirit today as eternal children of God.

    Do you see to know and accept the free gift of the water of life, who is spirit, or do you remain of this temporal world?

  • Herm

    If becoming, after drinking the water welling up to eternal life (baptized, filled, by the Spirit of truth), a child of God, sibling student of the only begotten Son of God, makes one in your carnal logic holy, then that is a sanctification verse. If you are not in Christ, and Christ in you, today, then today you are not a disciple of Jesus the Christ. Examine yourself in that sense, relative to the Advocate, to see whether you are in fact a child of God, in the certain faith that the entire family of God will never leave you orphaned. Can you say, for certain from your heart and mind of spirit (the image of God graced mankind), that you see to know to accept the filling of Spirit of truth to be your guide into all truth forever, as instructed by the Messiah according to the will of the Father of all of God? Test yourselves Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you, really alive and in you today? If he is today, and you are in him, then you will live eternally to values in the Spirit no longer to the values of this world. If you cannot be certain that this relationship in the Spirit is with and in you forever then you remain blind to the Holy Spirit in your midst and are subject only to the values of this world.

    Know that the greatest intellectual authorities in the study of God were blind to the dove who remained with Jesus at his baptism until his death on the cross. Caiaphas pronounced death to a Child first of God, from the Moses seat, in the name of God. Saul executed children of God, first of Man, in God’s name. … as it is written in witnessed testimony sustained for nearly 2,000 years now.

  • Middie Wood

    That sounds like gnosticism to me. I enjoy the indwelling Holy Spirit in my frail physical body and mind. He is always glorifying the Son to me and in me, who clothes me in His own righteousness, by His blood so that I know the Father as My Father. I look forward to a physical resurrection where I will continue enjoying life in all its fulness in His Kingdom finally fully established, along with The Son and all other redeemed sons and daughters. Everyone outside of Christ will continue likewise, receiving the full penalty for their sins

  • Herm

    Keith, “Pending”, again. Who in Disqus is determining truth?

  • Herm

    John 4:23-24 (NIV2011)
    23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    John 14:15-21 (NIV2011)
    15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 16:12-15 (NIV2011)
    12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    God was long before the origin of our physical (carnal) universe 13.8 billion years ago, and will be long after its demise. If you are hung up on some father of some god establishing a physical kingdom, you are attempting to bring God down to your level on earth. God, by our Father’s love, grace and will, has saved us from ourselves by inviting us to join in His family, not His family join in mankind’s.

    John 1:9-13
    9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    John 3:5-8
    5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
    6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
    8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

    Eternal life is only for those who can enter into the kingdom of God, which is spirit, not physical.

    John 4:10-14
    10 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.”
    11 “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water?
    12 Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?”
    13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

    Reexamine your relationship with God, please. Do you truly know the gift of God? I do. Have you drank the water that becomes in you a spring of water welling up to eternal life, which is spirit not carnal? I have and I truly no longer thirst. This is real and available to you for the asking. I wish you well.

  • Adam “Giauz” Birkholtz

    Pretty sure we all go back to non-existence. My grandparents don’t talk or do anything anymore.

  • Jesse H

    Patheos has a “hotbed” list of words that they check as spam. That is why you get pending comments. You can find the list under patheos rules page.

  • Jesse H

    From the verse in question I find a difference between being “in the faith” and being “unapproved.” At various points in our lives we are not always being faithful to the doctrines and spirit-filled living that we should be.

  • Middie Wood

    Are you a Mormon herm?

  • Herm

    Thanks Jesse. I did a little, very little, research and it is most likely Keith’s Disqus word filter. He chose the words he will not let on this blog under his moderation. I did not use any words, each time I have been censored, that were in any way offensive on any other blog I comment on. It’s Keith’s option, as he does the work, but the frustration I have is spending up to two hours of research and forming only to be silenced in very honest, serious and hopefully loving replies. It would help a lot if Keith would email me with a list of words he finds offensive, in the spirit of Matthew 7:12.

  • Middie Wood

    I ask whether you’re a Mormon because you seem to be distinguishing between The Father and God. As I understand it, they believe in a God above The Father, which is abhorrent blasphemy. You seem also to be saying that the Holy Spirit, might be operating in other religions, e.g. glorifying Mohammed or Haile Sailasse.. If He, the Holy Spirit in you does anything but point to and worship Jesus Christ as God and Saviour then it is not the Holy Spirit. To call it so is blasphemy.

    You’re slippery Herm, but I’ve met worse

  • Herm

    Middie, I really have to smile at your question. Even when a trained and ordained official, as a Presbyterian member and as a Seventh Day Adventist member, I was ecumenical when working with all other denominations, religious pursuits and spiritual “beliefs”. I don’t understand how it took until I was 50 years old before I realized that there are no denominations in the only church of worship administrated by Jesus. You, as I did for all those years, indicate that it is important to define another’s theology, doctrine and religious dogma. Members of Jesus’ flock answer to no theology, doctrine or dogma, only in the Spirit of and in truth

    John 4:23-24
    23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

    Guessing that I might be a Latter Day Saint only means that you have no clue what I have been saying to you. Mormons believe that after their present carnal bodies die they will be born again in perfected carnal bodies, still in the same church families. I know, as the Holy Spirit is my one Teacher (Matthew 23:8), that I have already been born again in the Spirit (baptized by Jesus, John 1:33) as a child of God (John 1:12, 13). God is spirit (John 4:24), including my heavenly Father, my brother Jesus (first spirit then born carnal), his carnal mother, and all children like me (born carnal then born spirit). Jesus is a Son of God and a Son of Man. I am a son of Man and a son of God. Spirit God has no beginning and has no end. Spirit Man has a beginning, as short as 200,000 years ago, and will have an end.

    To begin to understand what I am trying to share with you, please read the following closely as literal fact in spirit (the image of God graced Man) effective for the last 1,950 years, considering all the ramifications:

    John 14:15-21
    15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    John 16:12-15
    12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

    Jesus has not ordained any carnal church, denomination or institution as a subsidiary to his church. He invites all who can abide in his commands in everything they do to join his flock. His commands are very clear as found within the remaining gospel testimony in your “Christian” Bible. Love your sisters and brothers, love the Lord your God, love your merciful neighbor, love your enemy, and love yourself that you, constructively for all, in everything do first to all others, of Man and God, as you would have all others do to you. That sums up all of Jesus’ church theology, doctrine and dogma. The Spirit of truth, for all children of God on earth, teaches what each can bear for the eternity it will take before each knows it all. There is no instant gratification and our Father knows there is an infinite amount of adventures of sharing and savoring ahead for all of God who are spirit.

    I do not direct anyone to any church on earth. I am not leading out to start my own religion. I only share what I know ends all confusion as to which church is the right church for those honestly seeking God’s favor. I am only a little child of the family God inviting others to join my family. Does this help to understand why I cannot be of any religious denomination on earth?

  • Herm

    John 1:12-13
    12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

    Genesis 1:26
    26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

    Middie, my Father is the Father of God. God is not some individual ruling over the universe. I am born of the Spirit as a child of God, yes right here on earth right now. The Holy Spirit is available to any of mankind through God’s image/ likeness, which is spirit. God is spirit, not carnal. Mankind is carnal graced the opportunity to be born again as spirit. None of mankind owns God. Mankind is not God’s pets or puppets.

    Matthew 26:63-66
    63 But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
    64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
    65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy.
    66 What do you think?” “He is worthy of death,” they answered.

    Your judgment of blasphemy is based on your church theology, doctrine, and dogma taught you by your church fathers, as was Caiaphas’ judgment to murder the Son of Man in the name of God. What makes you trust your church’s theology, doctrine, and dogma? There is only one Teacher on earth today who can lead you into all truth, as you can bear forever, and it isn’t your carnal church family authority.

  • Middie Wood

    It is the Holy Spirit that teaches me Herm, who leads me into all truth. I discern that you are leading people away from knowing Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, or at least trying to. I’ve no idea why. God does though

  • Herm

    Middie, Caiaphas would have said the same thing. Caiaphas, as the high priest, had only to enter the Holy of Holies and ask the Holy Spirit directly whether Jesus was the Christ. He did not. He relied totally on his Sadducee education in theology, doctrine and dogma. If you read the gospels according to the Messiah you should know that you can go directly to the Holy Spirit in your midst and ask him. You are not. I thought I knew the Holy Spirit until I was 50 and found that only the churches administered by mankind had convinced me that I was. I can’t lead you away from knowing Jesus Christ when I am asking you to go directly to him today and ask him directly. It is your church who maintains their authority over you by suggesting that they will lead you until Jesus returns. Jesus is here in the Spirit of truth in your midst.

    The Bible is not the word of God. The Bible was not written by God. Jesus, by mankind’s standards, was and is functionally illiterate, as was Peter and James, also. Only being filled can anyone on earth speak the word of God today.

    I am suggesting that you do not need the “Christian” religion to know God and honor God directly. The curtain, between God’s Holy Spirit and mankind, was torn top to bottom when Jesus died. The Spirit of truth is in the midst of all of mankind.

    What did Jesus Christ save you from and for what? Why do all children of God on earth still, after nearly 2,000 years, carry their own cross honoring their Father’s will?

    Was “God does though” an attempt at divine intimidation? 🙂

    1 John 4:16-18
    16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
    17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

    Matthew 5:48
    48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    Fear not, you are saved to go directly to God by way of the Spirit of truth in your midst today. In all humility, open your heart and mind of spirit (made in you in the likeness of all members of God) to receive the Holy Spirit to live with and in you, without pause, forever. Then you are born again to become a spirit child of God, sibling of Christ. You do not need any carnal church to teach you of God when God can teach you themselves, up close and personal, one in one.

  • Middie Wood

    Christ saved me from the vapid, self-congratulatory, death that you describe. Saved me from joining the hordes of idolators who deny God as he has made himself known and create their own version more to their liking. Saved me from suffering exactly what I deserve for my continual falling-short of His glory. I am still a sinner in the hand of an angry God, but one who’s cleansed by Jesus’ blood and clothed in His righteousness, filled by His Holy Spirit and will never be deceived into draining the Cross of its offence.

    I don’t know what competing idol drew you away from the narrow way, but please read the whole of 1 John. “Whoever loves the things of this world, the love of the Father is not in him” (or something to that effect).

    It must be something really sparkly and lovely, for it to lead you to deny the final coming of Our Lord. If you don’t feel the horror of His absence you cannot have been taught anything about Him. I don’t deny His presence by the Holy Spirit but we we look forward to a time when we will see Him as He is. In the fullness of His Kingdom. You’ve been sold a duck

    You continue to spread your pleasant bloodless optimism around. I’m sticking with the apostles, the puritans and all other Christians who actually saw movements of God. Have mercy Father on this sorry generation. Come Lord Jesus

  • Herm

    Seventy time seven. Middie, you’re defensive in your church trained talking points. Of the two of us, I’m the one who clearly doesn’t love the “things of this world“, enough so that I have told you that all that is carnal, of this world, will cease to be. Heaven is today, as it was before the beginning, and will be forever more, spirit, and not in anyway carnal. I am dying as a carnal child of Man, as Jesus was dying as the Son of Man. I am living as a child of God in the Spirit, as Jesus lives in the Spirit as the Son of God, for eternity.

    My family God is not angry, though they do mourn the loss of every one of mankind who were made in our likeness. I can’t express what your god is likened to from mankind’s past, as Keith won’t let me use that analogy.

    You wrote, “Saved me from suffering exactly what I deserve for my continual falling-short of His glory.” What child of mankind is punished by her/his parents for falling-short of their glory? What loving parent of mankind would sacrifice their older child to save other children from “vapid, self-congratulatory, death“? My heavenly Father loves even our enemies enough to ask us to die on our cross for them, as we would have them do for us. Death is not a punishment, it is a merciful finality, from awareness and influence, eternally for those who in everything cannot do for others as they would have others do for them. Our stored treasure is not of carnal value on earth but is relational spirit in heaven. Even as an infant child of God I don’t trespass the Law and the Prophets (sin), as in everything I do do to others as I would have others do to me. I honestly am sharing with you as I would have you share with me.

    Why do you persist to “love the things of this world” so much so that you’re trying to make this world Jesus’ kingdom, when he has said that he now has been given all authority on earth and in heaven? What do you think is so special about this puny planet that Jesus would want to remain here, when all of heaven is under his authority? Oh, the vanity of mankind!!!

    Are you sticking with the crusades and witch hunts, chronicled Christian traits, also? Middie, clear your heart and mind to review, inviting the counsel of the Spirit of truth, exactly what you just wrote to me.

    I know, guaranteed, Jesus in me and I in him, today. The child of God part of me knows the freedom from friction and gravity that I have found only in the Spirit. I seek the kingdom of heaven, which is spirit, not an earthly kingdom.

    Seventy time seven. What in the following is not real to you? What, in your Sunday/Sabbath school lessons, would make this world so inviting to Jesus that he would make his home here?

    John 14:15-21
    15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

    Jesus has not shown himself to you if you’re waiting on his return. For our sake, tell me how the above scriptural testimony applies to you, please.

    Objectively, open your heart and open your mind to honestly read your gospels, without direction from your church, relying solely on the direction of the Holy Spirit. Pray to the Father in heaven to protect you from evil and to You will find that you’ve been sorely mislead, giving authority to your earth bound church that usurps Christ’s perfect authority in heaven and on earth for all who look for his instructions apropos to them personally and to today, not 2,000 years ago or some unknown time in the future.

    I wish you well in your pursuit of a relationship with God. I am sorry that I offend you with what you perceive as “pleasant bloodless optimism”. Compared to what you choose to spread instead, what I spread sounds much more like “good news” Gospel … much more like the message that the Jesus in the Gospels spread then, and spreads today, through all who boldly speak the word of God.

  • Herm

    Okay Keith, what was the trigger that has my reply to Jesse in “Pending”?