The following is an unedited transcript of an IM conversation I had with fellow contributor Sam Rocha. As you will see, I had no idea when it started that it would become a Vox Nova post, but I thought it might function as both a sort of “mea culpa” and also as food for further discussion.
Matt
Sam – you there?
11:45amSam
yes
11:49amMatt
I’ve posted a couple of things related to the Democratic Party on VN, and I get the sense that you think I’m barking up the wrong tree on that – where am I going wrong, in your view? (I ask sincerely, because I respect your intellect and education…)
11:51amSam
basically, I think that the Democratic Party–and all the political parties in US history (including their presidents!)–fall incredibly short of what we ought to aspire to politcally.
Most would agreee but contend that we have to like something or someone
And here is my objection:
Insofar as we are dominated by the domain of the merely present and real, we lack the ability to aspire for the future and possible.
To me, mainstream politics creates the very conditions under which conversion and deep, cultural change are unimaginable and dangerous
it disciplines us into not imagining what the world we would want would look like in the prsent world
Which is why poets, artist, and theologians are the greatest enemy of status quo politicians, because they create the conditons of a new world, again and agin
11:55amMatt
e.g., MLK jr?
11:56amSam
yes. and Obama noted correctly this fact in the early primary debates: MLK Jr would have not endorsed himself or Clinton because he didn’t see politics under the limitations of partisan imagination
11:56amMatt
I think I agree with what you’re saying…
But my concern is this:
11:58amMatt
For every MLK, you need an LBJ to actually enact, governmentally at least, the demands of justice?
11:59amSam
Yes, here is the problem, as I see it:
12:00pmSam
It then becomes a situation where governmental enactments validate what is possible and real, for MLK freedom was always the case, his struggle was to press the point that unjust law is no law at all.
And in that instance he has a higher appeal to create deep, cultural change than LBJ’s Civil Rights Act
And he did so within politics as well as against it
12:02pmMatt
against it, e.g. his speech where he turned against the War in Vietnam?
12:03pmSam
and even his “I have a Dream Speech” locates the stuggle for freedom within the “bad check” that had been dealt tot he Negro by the govenment
12:04pmMatt
I’m beginning to see the issue, pehaps – aim to be more prophetic than “political”, per se?
12:05pmSam
exactly. and with that we would have to give up the fetish of changing the world via legislation and begin to change it through love
12:06pmMatt
Is there really such a dichotomy, though – didn’t MLK talk about power needing to be “love implementing the demands of justice?”
12:07pmSam
which would not preculde leaving the political realm altogether
Yes.
The dicotomy is false in the world, but the dialectic against pure politics is necessary, I think
12:09pmMatt
Not sure what you mean by “dialectic against pure politics” – I’m not a Philosophy major 😉
12:09pmSam
something like a necessary reversal
the idea that governace and legislation are the limit of “real” change
much like anti-abortion advocates see no “real” activism in feeding the poor
12:11pmSam
or giving everyone free healthcare through progressive taxation
I guess another way to put my critique is this way: Intentions.
12:12pmMatt
As in, what are mine?
12:12pmSam
No party has intention that go beyond their maniacal desire for money and power from donors and the parties let themselves be created acdording to those very same interests
no, the “party’s intentions” I do not question your own…
12:13pmMatt
Ah
12:13pmSam
from time to time we may find a person within the party who makes a claim to something bigger than the almighty dollar, but that is literally becoming impossible in election politics
its ALL about fundraising
12:14pmMatt
by the way, I knew I wouldn’t regret tapping your brain – I really appreciate your thoughts!
And yes, it is looking more and more like you describe
He who has the gold makes the rules
12:15pmSam
right. my views come from deeply desiring something completely different–I don’t event trust America, democracy, or liberalism
I am a postmodern theocrat
a conservative leftist
12:17pmMatt
hmm
12:17pmSam
historically and philosophically we have given secular modenity a free pass in status quo politics
it presupposes that this is the world we want
well, I don’t I want a different world–a world not of this world
12:19pmSam
there should be a period at the end of “I don’t.”
12:20pmMatt
I read you – But hasn’t been that a classic excuse for quietism (I know that’s not what you’re doing there)?
I mean…
12:20pmSam
yes, you are quite right
and I am not “quiet”
12:21pmMatt
I read a lot of commentary that “well, war is unfortunate, but what is one to do in a fallen world?”
And that really bothers me
12:22pmSam
and you are very good to be skeptical of this if loses hope, and waits for Christ to come.
12:22pmMatt
Talk about being restricted to the world as it is!
12:22pmSam
But I think that if we take the view that Christ is here and not here we can fight for a better world and refuse to accept it
I think contradiction would be a great way to conduct poltics, its mirrors real life and love more closely
12:24pmMatt
There is a lot of wisdom in that, I think.
When you say “contradiction” – what would that look like in, say, a VN post?
12:25pmSam
Derrida calls this the au venir–to-come
something never “here” but that must be dealt with in temporality–the here and now
12:27pmSam
like Christ himself–always and infinately present but never finished or fully grasped
12:27pmMatt
“Agape demands x: in the context of our current political predicament, that might mean _______.” — like that?
12:28pmSam
Oh, I see. Some thing the following:
12:30pmSam
In the context of our current political predicament we must reject the very idea that this predicament is something that we need to deal with on its own term and redefine it in terms that takes the human person seriously.
12:32pmMatt
Ah! Got it. Awesome feedback – is there a way to save these chats on FB?
12:33pmSam
cut and paste to a word doc, I think
maybe you could post it as a dialogue?
12:34pmMatt
on VN, you mean?
12:34pmSam
sure
it could show them that we actually talk to each other
in ways that are not simply echo chamberish…
12:36pmMatt
What a great idea…I think I will. Thanks again for the feedback.
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