America's Occultist: An Interview with Lon Milo DuQuette

By Star Foster Author of fifteen critically acclaimed books (translated into twelve languages) on Magick and the Occult, Lon Milo DuQuette is one of the most respected and entertaining writers and lecturers in the field of the Western Mystery Traditions. He is also gifted singer songwriter and former Epic Records recording artist whose material continues to inspire and provoke. Since 1975 he has been a national and international governing officer of Ordo Templi Orientis, one of the most influential magickal societies of the 20th century. He is an internationally recognized authority on tarot and western ceremonial magick. Although he takes these subjects very seriously, he tries not to take himself too seriously. This rare combination of scholarship and humor has earned him in the last twenty years a unique and respected position in American spiritual and esoteric literature. DuQuette appears often on television and radio as a guest expert on subjects involving the occult. He is a contributor to the Magical Egypt DVD series and hosts the new DVD series, The Great Work. He is on the faculty of the Omega Institute in Reinbeck New York, and Robert Anton Wilson's Maybe Logic Academy. He lives in Costa Mesa, California with his wife of 42 years, Constance. With fifteen books on magick and the occult, your duties in the O.T.O., your lectures and appearances as a guest expert on TV and radio, you seem to stay busy. What projects are you currently working on? I have a new book coming out in November (from Llewellyn) titled Low Magick -- It's All in Your Head, You Just Have No Idea How Big Your Head Is. It's autobiographic and contains stories of magickal operations I've done over the years. The title is a bit tongue-in-cheek, facetiously using the term "Low Magick" to refer to any magickal operation one actual performs rather than those one just talks or argues about. I'm also finishing up a new book called Ask Baba Lon -- Candid Answers to Questions of Life and Magick. I've been working on this one for over twenty years. It is a collection of letters I've received over the years from magicians (and would-be magicians) and my answers back. Some are absurd and funny, but most are extremely good questions and observations that required me to really search my soul in order to discover what I really think about these matters. You've been with the Ordo Templi Orientis for over thirty years and have served as its U.S. Deputy Grand Master since 1996. What initially drew you to the O.T.O., and what do you think is the most interesting aspect of the organization today? I didn't know it at the time, but there were only five or six members of the O.T.O. (all surviving from Crowley's day) still living when I wrote my first letter of inquiry to the Order back in 1973. I had read a couple things by Aleister Crowley and heard a lot of things (mostly bad) about him, but I just had a feeling that despite his bad reputation this colorful character was a real holy man. As it turns out, the more I discover about him the greater is my conviction that this is true. In my opinion the most interested aspect of the organization today is the demonstrable success of its mission of perpetuating the works of Aleister Crowley and the propagation of Thelema as a bona fide spiritual philosophy. In addition to this the O.T.O. provides the very real magickal experiences of its various degree initiation ceremonies, something I believe to be among Crowley's greatest magickal rituals. You're also an Archbishop in the Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica. Can you tell us a little bit about the E.G.C. and its relationship to the O.T.O.? Ecclesia Gnostica Catholica (E.G.C.) is the ecclesiastical arm of the O.T.O. It is not a separate organization. It is not a separate spiritual entity. This puts us in a similar position as our traditional ancestors, the Knights Templar, who were a military secret society independent of King and Church. They were answerable only to the pope (who seldom questioned anything they did) and they had their own priests, and their own confessors. In other words, like the O.T.O. they had their own church within the Order. Get used to thinking of the O.T.O. and E.G.C. as the exact same organization viewed with different glasses. Put on your O.T.O. glasses and you see the O.T.O. with our Frater Superior, our Supreme and Holy King or Queen, our Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, our Most Wise Sovereigns, and our Lodge Masters, and members of the various degrees (some of whom have volunteered for extra duties). Put on your church glasses and look at the same thing and you see the E.G.C. with our Sovereign Patriarch or Matriarch, our Presiding Bishop, our Bishops, and our Priestesses and Priests and Deacons. Most people don't think of magickal disciplines as spirituality. Is there a difference between a magickal discipline and a spiritual discipline? I guess it depends entirely on the attitude, motive, and intent of the individual practitioner. It's quite possible, in my opinion, to be a perfectly effective magician without subscribing to any particular discipline that most people usually consider as being "spiritual." You were on a Pagan panel at PantheaCon recently. Many Pagans are interested in the O.T.O., especially through the writings of Crowley and yourself, although the O.T.O. itself isn't specifically Pagan. How would you characterize the relationship of the O.T.O. and the Pagan community? Do you consider yourself Pagan? It, of course, comes down to your accepted definition of the word "Pagan." If by the term you mean "rustic" or "country person" I am not a Pagan. If by the term you mean a person that reveres or worships a deity or pantheon of deities other than that (or those) worshipped by the Abrahamic religions then my answer is a qualified "Yes." If by the term you ask if I'm a person who worships the earth as the supreme goddess and attempts to synchronize my entire spiritual focus upon the rhythms of the year and its cycles of agriculture and husbandry my answer is an unqualified "No." I don't worship the "Pagan" Goddess of Nourishment of two aeons ago. I don't worship the "Chrislemew (Christian Muslim or Jew) dying god of sacrifice and superstition of the last aeon. If anything, I worship the Child that represents the formulae of the present aeon, and I attempt to synchronize my spiritual focus on the formula of natural growth. If that makes me a Pagan... then I'm a Pagan. Can someone be active in the O.T.O. without being a member of the Thelemic religion? Are all faiths welcome? The O.T.O. requires only that an individual be able to say in good conscience that he or she "accepts The Book of the Law (the primary Holy Book of Thelema, dictated to Crowley by a praetor-human intelligence in 1904) without wishing to make changes in it." As no one may presume to interpret The Book of the Law for another, this puts the responsibility for one's understanding of the text squarely in one's own lap. If an individual believes that his or her religious beliefs can be compatible with their understanding (or even their indifference as to the meaning) of The Book of the Law then there is no other litmus test other than that applied by the individual. That being said, there are many O.T.O. members who consider themselves Pagans. There also quite a few who consider themselves Jews. One of my dearest O.T.O. brothers is a Muslim. There are even those who consider themselves Christian (although by most "Christian" doctrinal standards they would be considered highly irregular or even heretical Christians.) There are quite a few who are comfortable identifying themselves as atheists, and a growing number who are Freemasons who are vocally not atheists. Much of ceremonial magick draws from Judeo-Christian traditions. For some Pagans that's uncomfortable territory. Why should a Pagan work with angels or study Jewish mysticism? They shouldn't feel the need to if they are comfortable with their mastery of the rites and traditions of their Pagan religion. The O.T.O. has been associated with sex magick and you have written three books on the subject. What would you like to say to people who are interested in ceremonial magick and the O.T.O., but find the subject of sex magick uncomfortable or off-putting? If after reading what I've written about the subject, someone is still disturbed by a discussion of the more universal or even metaphoric aspects of sex, then I must respectfully conclude he or she has important psychological issues that they should address before they involve themselves in any form of esoteric study undertaken by adults. Your acclaimed book on practical Qabalism for the magickal community, The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford: Dilettante's Guide to What You Do and Do Not Need to Know to Become a Qabalist, is written in the voice of an imaginary rabbi. Why did you choose to write as a humorous fictional character? Because Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford could say things that I would be hesitant to say. It's like the shy ventriloquist who can only really speak his heart through the wooden lips of his dummy. Your autobiography, My Life with Spirits, is required reading for two classes at DePaul University in Chicago. Can you tell us about that? It's a class on Modern Religion. A few years ago when I was in Chicago I even got to address the class. Magickal authorities, like Crowley, have traditionally been seen as self-aggrandizing and egotistical, and magickal texts as obscure and ciphered. Your autobiography and books on magick tend to be funny and down-to-earth. Is humor and accessibility necessary to reach a modern audience? Probably not for everybody. It is how I see things, so it is how I attempt to communicate. Do you think information on magickal and spiritual matters can be too readily available? No. Aleister Crowley, undisputed as a talented occultist, delighted in his nefarious reputation and claimed to have lived quite a wild life. You've written several books on Crowley's work. Do you have an opinion of the man himself? Was he as wicked as he made himself out to be? He didn't just claim to have a wild life... he had a wild life! No wilder perhaps than a Ramakrishna, or an Oscar Wilde, or Timothy Leary, however. Let me ask you this... have you ever met and tried to have a friendship or a business relationship with a great artist (a famous novelist, or film maker, or actor, or dancer, or choreographer, or composer, or virtuosic musician, or singer, or poet, or painter, or sculptor) who is also a bona fide genius? It may start out pleasant enough, but more often than not the more you become enmeshed in their mad world the more your world is turned upside down. It's not always the case, but many times these people can be almost dangerously unstable... they can be real jerks! cruel and sarcastic prima donnas who focus so much on their art that they can be completely oblivious to the feelings, well-being, or even safety of those around them. They are filled with shortcomings and character flaws and hang ups, because they've just never had a normal life to work these issues out and frankly they don't care... because their art is the magickal object of the operation that is their life... not you... not the press... not even history. Crowley, I believe, was such a person. There are aspects of his life that I applaud... that awe me... that touch me in ways that only inspired spiritual literature can. Then, there are ample examples of a man being petty and cruel. Frankly, I don't think I would have long been comfortable in his presence. His "wickedness" was no more wicked than the shortcomings of any artist/genius. The difference was, Aleister Crowley's "wickedness" was part of his art. Your autobiography contains a few cautionary tales of your early days of practicing magick. What advice would you give someone beginning a magickal discipline? Don't be afraid. It's good to be wise. It's good to be cautious. But it's never good to be afraid. Never. If you make a mistake... big deal! You'll live through it (most likely). It's better to do something and make a mistake than to not do something because you are afraid of making mistakes. You've written a lot about classical magickal systems. What do you think of Chaos magick? I think if I were a youngster starting my study of magick it would be a very attractive introduction to the art. What do you think has been the most important contribution to ceremonial magick in the past fifty years? The personal computer, the Internet, quantum physics. What do you think the future holds for ceremonial magick? A longer past. Looking back on your life, what rewards, if any, have your years of magickal practice and study given you? This might seem too simple and corny, but my biggest "reward" has been a certain success in achieving a measure of (what I presumptuously will call) "enlightened happiness." Maybe it's all been merely a matter of good luck. But who knows, for sure what luck really is? Many of your readers may not know you're also a musician. Your country-rock band from the early 70s, Charley D. and Milo, is being rediscovered by a new generation, and you've been busy independently recording original folk songs. Any plans to release, or re-release, any of your music as a CD or EP? I'm so glad you asked. Yes. Before I wrote books I wrote songs, and for a while made a pretty good living at it. I gave music and recording a rest for twenty-five years, but have picked it up again in the last couple of years (maybe it's just my fourth or fifth midlife crises). In the last couple of years I've been (again) lucky enough play some local clubs in the LA area and to book concerts in the U.S., Japan, and Australia. Even back in the 70s my music was magickal in nature (Charley and I called it Acid Cowboy). I've recently made a couple of CDs (just me and my guitar) of my songs of sloppy sentiment, offensive blaspheme, and diabolic Americana. I beg everyone reading this to buy them: The White Album (so named because I couldn't afford color); and The Black Album. You can get them fastest by going to: Kunaki.com. Please do this before you think about it. It will be easier that way. Remember, I'm not asking anyone to listen to these CDs but I would appreciate it if you bought them! Possibly your most remarkable magickal act is being married to your lovely wife, Constance, for over forty years. Any secrets to successful matrimony you'd like to share? Try not to get to know each other very well. Communication is way overrated, and mystery remains an aphrodisiac. Star Foster is a Pagan numbers-geek roaming the wilds of the North Georgia mountains. She enjoys bluegrass, RPGs, war novels and keeping abreast of the wild, wonderful world of Modern Paganism.