The Evangelicals' Fear of Knowledge

Peter Enns describes the ways that seminaries hide ideas, information, and arguments that might disturb their students’ faiths:

Once students leave the environment where such apologetics is valued, they find that the old answers are often inadequate, and in some cases glaringly so. When they return to an Evangelical context, they try to work toward some synthesis to bring old and new into conversation, but too often that very attempt, however gently put forward, is deemed out of bounds. And so, they either keep quiet or look for another job.

They often feel–and I’ve heard this many times–that they have been lied to by their teachers. I’d like to relay one anecdote. In one seminary I know a former student, now professor, felt ill-prepared by his seminary at the initial stages of his doctoral work. He had gotten straight As in seminary and done stellar work in his language classes. But he was lost in negotiating the new ideas he was encountering and had to do a lot of catching up.

He asked his former professor, now colleague, why he was sent to graduate school with so many gaps in his learning. The answer: “Our job was to protect you from this information so as not to shipwreck your faith.”

I would replace “your faith” with “our system” and then I think we are closer to the truth.

This sad, recurring, generational cycle in Evangelical biblical scholarship is not an indication of the incompetence of the dissenting biblical scholars, too weak or stupid to know not to get too close to the flame, too eager to drink from the wine cellars of unbelieving presuppositions.

It is, rather, an indication of the inadequacy of the Evangelical system, where the best Evangelical minds trained in the best research institutions have to make believe they don’t know what they know.

Read More.

It is a sure sign you have the absolute truth when you have to hide all sorts of facts and ideas, even from your post-graduate students, no?

I also feel like saying to Dr. Enns: Please. Give me a break. If these students really wanted truth and open-ended inquiry they would just leave Evangelical Christianity altogether and study reality and do so from an unprejudiced, rather than a religious, perspective. The real reason that Evangelical seminaries distort reality so much to preserve the faith of their students is that deep down they know and act on a truth that you apparently won’t admit—that lying about history and science are the only ways to preserve the Christian faith itself (or at least the ludicrous Evangelical interpretation of it, which is conclusively disconfirmed by history and science.) Freethinking, intellectually growing Evangelical Christians would be the end of Evangelical Christianity. Its core raison d’être for at least a century now has been to serve as a reactionary counter to the slow and sure centuries’ long modernization of the rest of Protestant Christianity that so appalled those regressives who coined the term “fundamentalist” for themselves.

But another part of me does feel some empathy for the earnest, well-meaning Evangelical theology students. I was once one of them, as an undergraduate at least, and so part of me acknowledges that “there but for the grace of realizing in time that there was no God, go I”.

But, on the other hand, I was at least responsible enough to tirelessly and exhaustively examine and reexamine the rational foundations of my faith, from ages 14-21 years old. So I don’t feel so bad blaming those who don’t do that for the pathetically ignorant places they wind up on account of their own intellectual laziness. And I don’t forgive them the lies they tell when they finally do figure out the truth. I just wish their own intellectual cowardice and deceptiveness did not perpetuate so much ignorance in others as well.

Your Thoughts?

In case this post makes you curious about my years as an Evangelical or about how I deconverted. Below are posts on those topics:

Before I Deconverted:

Before I Deconverted: My Christian Childhood

Before I Deconverted: Ministers As Powerful Role Models

My Fundamentalist Preacher Brother, His Kids, And Me (And “What To Do About One’s Religiously Raised Nieces and Nephews”)

Before I Deconverted: I Was A Teenage Christian Contrarian

Before I Deconverted, I Already Believed in Equality Between the Sexes

Love Virginity

Before I Deconverted: I Dabbled with Calvinism in College (Everyone Was Doing It)

How Evangelicals Can Be Very Hurtful Without Being Very Hateful

How I Deconverted:

How I Deconverted, It Started With Humean Skepticism

How I Deconverted, I Became A Christian Relativist

How I Deconverted: December 8, 1997

How I Deconverted: I Made A Kierkegaardian Leap of Faith

When I Deconverted:

When I Deconverted: I Had Been Devout And Was Surrounded By The Devout

When I Deconverted: Some People Felt Betrayed

When I Deconverted: My Closest Christian Philosopher Friends Remained My Closest Philosophical Brothers

When I Deconverted: I Was Not Alone

When I Deconverted: Some Anger Built Up

Before I Deconverted: Christmas Became A Christian Holiday To Me
Before I Deconverted: “My God Died on the Cross, Not At McDonald’s!”
The Collar That Choked Open Hearts
About Daniel Fincke

Dr. Daniel Fincke  has his PhD in philosophy from Fordham University and spent 11 years teaching in college classrooms. He wrote his dissertation on Ethics and the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche. On Camels With Hammers, the careful philosophy blog he writes for a popular audience, Dan argues for atheism and develops a humanistic ethical theory he calls “Empowerment Ethics”. Dan also teaches affordable, non-matriculated, video-conferencing philosophy classes on ethics, Nietzsche, historical philosophy, and philosophy for atheists that anyone around the world can sign up for. (You can learn more about Dan’s online classes here.) Dan is an APPA  (American Philosophical Practitioners Association) certified philosophical counselor who offers philosophical advice services to help people work through the philosophical aspects of their practical problems or to work out their views on philosophical issues. (You can read examples of Dan’s advice here.) Through his blogging, his online teaching, and his philosophical advice services each, Dan specializes in helping people who have recently left a religious tradition work out their constructive answers to questions of ethics, metaphysics, the meaning of life, etc. as part of their process of radical worldview change.

  • Brad Self

    Nice article.

    My real reason for commenting is to show great appreciation for that wonderful line, “there but for the grace of realizing in time that there was no God, go I”

    Thank you for making lunchtime so enjoyable!

  • timberwoof

    “The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense.” —Edsger W. Dijkstra

    If we were traveling through space in a vessel with limited resources and dependent on everyone knowing how things work and what the rules for survival are, anyone who did that sort of thing would get fed to the recyclers.

  • H.H.

    It reminds me of a anecdote I heard about a creationist university that stopped their geology program. Their reason for doing so was that too many geology students were losing their faith in a young Earth.

    Their will always be “tension” between Christian faith and reality because the two are not in agreement.

  • christianhuls

    This is such a complete load. it’s not true of the few seminaries I have had the privilege of interacting with or attending. I haven’t encountered anyone “afraid” of the questions, or lying, or discouraging anyone from looking at ALL the facts and arguments. I don’t doubt that this occurs, but this article is written from someone biased who assumes it happens everywhere all the time, and they didn’t name any names at all. Not one single source or actual example.

    The same argument could be turned around on some universities regarding Darwinian Evolution…

    • Jim

      A few years ago I was considering joining the Lutheran church, specifically a Missouri Synod (LCMS) church. In a conversation with the minister he told me that when his seminary (originally ELCA)was taken over the professors were required to sign an oath that they would only teach biblical literalism. Many of his former professors were summarily fired when they refused. I checked the LCMS website, and sure enough, it clearly states that all LCMS seminaries are only allowed to teach biblical literalism: no evolution or historical geology or historical astronomy are allowed.

      I don’t know what seminaries christianhul attended, but the LCMS is a perfect example of Dan Fincke’s post.

      PS. That brush with fundamentalism pushed me over the edge from liberal chrisitian into atheism.

    • eric

      @4 – I think Prof. Enns comments are focused on evangelical seminaries in particular, not seminaries in general. Folk like Bart Ehrman have made a similar point to yours about more mainstream seminaries – i.e., that they do introduce their students to critical analysis and the arguments from unorthodox sources. In fact, Ehrman remarks in a least a couple of books how it frustrates him to no end that mainstream seminarians learn this stuff, then seem to completely ignore it/forget it when they talk to the laity.

      This is very closely related to the problem Enns is talking about: Enns’ argument is about young evangelical seminarians not being told what graduate students learn; Erhman is talking about parishoners at churches not being told what (mainstream) seminarians learn – but otherwise, its the same complaint. In both cases, folks are hiding solid yet unorthodox scholarship because they fear if they teach it, they’ll be rejected by the community.

    • christianhuls

      Jim, I cannot claim to speak for the LCMS, but I seriously doubt that this means that evolution or historical geology cannot be taught at all, but that they cannot be taught as fact. However, I am quite surprised by this either way; because the LCMS is quite liberal in their theology in several areas if I am not mistaken… and I would not classify LCMS as “Evangelical.”

    • christianhuls

      Eric, again, this is false. The guys I know at seminary for the most part don’t forget, and they DO teach it in the churches. I am one of them.

    • Patrick

      Hah! Way to undercut yourself at the worst possible time and in the maximally hilarious fashion.

    • mandrellian

      It could … if the theory of evolution (which has progressed markedly since Darwin’s time and is no longer referred to as “Darwinian Evolution” except, curiously, by those ideologically aligned with the kinds of organisations that run seminaries and are opposed to being a species of ape) was religious dogma imposed upon people via autocratic hierarchy in a prescriptive top-down fashion (frequently on pain of eternal damnation), as opposed to being an extremely well-evidenced description of an apparent fact of nature, but which is also constantly being revised, added to and occasionally subtracted from when new information is discovered and welcomes contributions from literally anybody who can show their work, without restriction on age, nationality, race, gender or orientation.

    • raven

      The same argument could be turned around on some universities regarding Darwinian Evolution…

      No it can’t. This is just a fundie xian lie.

      How many other lies do you tell? Creationism is a lie and all creationists are liars. My guess, you lie most of the time.

      BTW, I experienced what Peter Enns said myself for decades.

      My moderate xian sect didn’t flat out lie to me. But, with the best of intentions, they really tried to hide that kludgy, evil supposedly magic book called the bible. With some justification, they were anything but biblical literalists so why not. I don’t blame them a bit. If it was my magic book, I’d think seriously about hiding it too.

      98% of what I learned about the bible, I learned on my way out as a deconvert after 5 decades.

    • raven


      In a conversation with the minister he told me that when his seminary (originally ELCA)was taken over the professors were required to sign an oath that they would only teach biblical literalism. Many of his former professors were summarily fired when they refused.

      The fundies just love and admire Joseph Stalin. They themselves are avid followers of Stalinism.

      They are always having witch hunts and purges. When the christofascists took over the SBC, they purged anyone who wasn’t a wild eyed KKKristian.

      Every once in a while, the fundie bible colleges purge their faculty of anyone who teaches mainstream science, mostly of course biologists. I have a long list if anyone is interested.

      Or just put La Sierra U, an SDA college in google. They’ve had two purges of their biology department in a few years. A small Presbeterian college in Georgia was just taken over by fundies. Yippee, it is purge time. They will probably fire most of their faculty.

    • raven

      Christianhuls lying:

      Eric, again, this is false. The guys I know at seminary for the most part don’t forget, and they DO teach it in the churches. I am one of them.

      Well that explains all of Christian Huls lies. He is a fundie minister. We are face to face with maximum xian evil.

      BTW, CH, the Missouri Synod is about as fundie as you can get without burning down the Catholic church a block away. If you think they aren’t, your cult must be so far out you think the Southern Baptists are backsliders.

      So since you are incapable of telling the truth, amuse us. What is the name of your cult?

      PS It isn’t just the seminarys that hide a lot from their students. Most churches most of the time, deliberately hide the bible from the members. The fundies are the worst. The vast majority of xians have no idea what is in their magic book.

  • vel

    Christianhuls, it’d be great if you could give some examples of these mysterious “some universities regarding Darwinian Evolution” that you claim. Espeically since you’ve thrown such a snit about the author of the article not providing the same. Hmmm,”someone biased who assumes it happens everywhere all the time, and they didn’t name any names at all. Not one single source or actual example.” methinks you must have looked in the mirror when writing that.

    • christianhuls

      Vel, fair enough. Have you seen the documentary “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed”? The film cites several people as victims of this kind of persecution. One example is Guillermo Gonzalez, an astrophysicist who was denied tenure at Iowa State University in 2007 after co-authoring a book entitled The Privileged Planet, which asserts that earth’s ability to support complex life is a result of supernatural intervention.

      Better than this movie is the book, “Slaughter of the Dissidents,” which documents a few cases of this.

    • christianhuls

      Or you can simply look to this very site –

      When scientists have an automatic bias against Christianity, as the author of this blog does, or any faith, and they don’t allow even the inquiry into Darwinism simply because they have a presupposition that Darwinism is completely true and they also doubt the credibility of the one raising the questions.

    • mandrellian


      You’re honestly citing Expelled? The most shameful and egregious piece of creationist propaganda ever to see the silver screen (and be absolutely panned)? This speaks volumes about why you’re here.

      Visit this:

      And visit this, regarding Gonzalez and his utter pack of lies:

      He wasn’t expelled for his views on ID; he was denied a promotion due to a lack of publication and lack of activity in securing grants.

      If you still think Gonzalez was “expelled” for his ID-Creationist views, rather than denied tenure for a perfectly understandable lack of professorial activity, then I think it’s safe to assume you’re a one-eyed crank with an agenda and should retire from commenting on that which you seem resolutely determined to avoid learning anything relevant – or true – about.

      And I think it’s worth noting that, at a premiere of this ridiculous “Reefer Madness” of a hit-piece, PZ Myers of this very blog network was himself “expelled” from the theatre prior to the screening, after having said or done nothing at all wrong, controversial or even a bit loud – someone merely recognised him as he waited in line and had security escort him out. PZ had registered previously, using his own name, yet someone at the theatre took exception to his very presence and had him removed.

      Oddly enough, PZ was waiting in line with one Richard Dawkins, who was permitted to see the film unmolested. Both men were even interviewed for the film – PZ was “expelled” from a movie he actually appeared in.

      “Expelled”? Don’t make me laugh. At you. Or your ridiculous hypocrite heroes. The subtitle “No Intelligence Allowed” is perfectly applicable here – but not in the way you think.

    • raven

      CH lying some more:

      Have you seen the documentary “Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed”? The film cites several people as victims of this kind of persecution.

      We have a bingo here. Christian Huls has managed to make a huge number of statements all of which are lies. This guy claims to be a minister with The Real Truth and lies more than even the usual xian trolls who show up on FTB. So much for xianity, no wonder it is dying.

      Expelled was a propaganda film with a bunch of lies strung together. Not only have most of us seen it, a few of us (not me) were in it, quote mined, a typical dishonest fundie tactic.

      Gonzalez was denied tenure at Iowa, not for Privileged Planet but because he stopped doing science. Creationism is a science stopper. Saying goddidit isn’t science and leads no where. He hasn’t done any since either.

  • Susannah

    If you believe the lies, then you’re positive they haven’t been lying to you. Works every time.

    A favourite saying of a pastor friend was, “No indagues en error.” (Don’t dig …) In other words, since we already told you it’s wrong, why are you still reading up on it?

  • B. Andrew

    Interesting to see the responses at Enn’s post.

    Almost no one seems to consider the option that there are no sufficient answers.

    • Artor

      In many cases that is true- we have no sufficient answers. Which group would you rather belong to though? The one that makes shit up in place of an answer, or the group that relentlessly tests and researches and cogitates to find a real answer?

  • docsarvis

    “If these students really wanted truth and open-ended inquiry they would just leave Evangelical Christianity altogether and study reality and do so from an unprejudiced, rather than a religious, perspective.”

    That’s what happened to me. I enrolled in an evangelical seminary in Dallas, TX when I was 20 years old. I was seeking answers, and the more I studied the Bible the less sense it made. When one of my friends challenged me to read The Origin of Species the game was over. Fortunately that only took half a semester, so I didn’t waste too much of my life in seminary.

    • christianhuls

      Docsarvis, I applaud you for having the courage at the time to read Darwin’s book. Have you further challenged yourself to read any books that oppose what you believe now? Or did you simply embrace it because it provided a satisfying explanation for what you wanted to believe?

      I challenge you to read “Darwin’s Black Box” by Michael Behe and “Darwin on Trial” by Philip Johnson. Both of these men are respected scientists.

      I came to Christianity from an atheist worldview because I examined the arguments that I disagreed with.

    • Nepenthe

      I challenge you to read “Darwin’s Black Box” by Michael Behe and “Darwin on Trial” by Philip Johnson. Both of these men are respected scientists.

      What did the words “respected” and “scientists” ever do to you that you abuse them so cruelly?

    • mandrellian

      Oh, christianhuls – first invoking that dreadful sack of lies, “Expelled”, now you’re citing Behe as some authority?

      You might want to familiarise yourself with Kitzmiller v Dover (2004), a little trial in which your precious Behe was humiliated, and the endless reviews by actual biologists taking Behe’s Black Box to task for its egregious ignorance of actual science. Did you also know that Behe’s own university have issued a disclaimer distancing themselves from his creationist foolishness? No, they haven’t “expelled” him as he’s probably a competent biochemist, but to protect their own reputation they’ve made it clear that they think he’s a crank.

      You might also want to familiarise yourself with the body of evidence collected SINCE the publication of Origin in 1859. It’s not difficult to understand, but there’s so much that it could take you a while. Or you could just spend a couple of days reading “The Greatest Show On Earth” by R Dawkins and “Why Evolution Is True” by J Coyne.

      Honestly, every time you present your “evidence” you look like a first-time creationist troll. Behe, Expelled – your naivety is matched only by your ignorance.

    • raven

      CH lying some more:

      I challenge you to read “Darwin’s Black Box” by Michael Behe and “Darwin on Trial” by Philip Johnson. Both of these men are respected scientists.

      I came to Christianity from an atheist worldview because I examined the arguments that I disagreed with.

      More lies.

      Philip Johnson is a lawyer. He is also a wild eyed fundie fanatic. He hasn’t disowned ID but he has said there is no scientific theory of ID.

      Behe was a scientist but has no respect whatsoever. His own department has a disclaimer on their website that they think he is a kook. And Darwin’s Black Box is factually wrong on the biology everywhere and no one takes in science takes it seriously. We laugh at it on slow days.

      Behe was cut to ribbons when he testified at Dover, Pennsylvania, in a creationist court case they lost.

      And you were never an atheist. You clearly are incapable of basic thought or telling the truth.

  • left0ver1under

    The strongest argument is the one that answers any questions posed to it.

    The weakest argument is the one that prevents questions from being asked.

    If religion had any merit, it would welcome sciences that challenge their beliefs. Their unwillingness to expose their students to other ideas exposes the weakeness of their beliefs.

    • christianhuls

      Excellent summary of the article.

      However, the last sentence is false. Most conservative Christian Scholars I know are extremely open and even teach the opposing views in order for their students to make an informed decision and be ready to defend. The God of Christianity claims to be based on truth. Therefore, truth should not be a problem.

    • Artor

      Xtianhuls- that’s a good one. Which Xtian scholars are you referring to? The ones that teach ridiculous straw-man versions of science to prop up their ridiculous boogy-man? Behe & Barton have zero credibility, as their screeds are directly contradicted by real science & history. Care to try again?

    • Robert B.

      Be careful not to get overconfident about your ability to answer any objection. There’s such a thing as a Perfectly General Argument – an argument that can be deployed in defense of any position, and still seem true to its user. Since some positions are false, a Perfectly General Argument must be invalid. “God works in mysterious ways” is one frustrating example. But the religious do not have a monopoly by any means – “You’re just biased because [reason interlocutor is interested in the conversation]” is another Perfectly General Argument.

      In fact, while I’m quite fond of (justified, respectful) pride, I don’t think being proud of the strength of one’s argument/position is a good idea at all, even if the position is in fact very strong. In general it is a bad idea to make it (more) emotionally important to oneself that one be correct. Rather, one should be proud of one’s ability to change one’s mind when the evidence justifies it.

      In other words, religion ought not only to listen to opposing claims, but to change its mind when those claims are correct. That’s not every time, of course – sometimes the other side is just wrong – but if someone “learns” opposing views and arguments over and over and is never once convinced by them, there’s a problem. I am unsurprised and unimpressed to hear that theology thinks it can refute science. If theology was willing to be refuted by science, that I would respect.

    • raven

      christian huls:

      The God of Christianity claims to be based on truth. Therefore, truth should not be a problem.

      One lie from Christian after another. That is all he has.

      BTW, Most xians worldwide don’t have a problem with evolution or the Big Bang. My large old Protestant sect says exactly that right on their website. Creationism is a lie made up by weird fundie sects based mostly in the south central USA.

      You conflate your hatred and fear of science with xianity and that is a lie too.

  • plutosdad

    I think “betrayed” and “lied to” are perfect descriptions of how I felt when I stopped my years of study of apologetics and thought “I should read some sources from the other side just to be sure”

    To find all the arguments I’d been studying and memorizing were debunked and written off decades ago was a shocker to say the least. Especially since these authors are supposedly the ones reconciling the world with religion, I thought they were engaging atheists at a normal, honest, level, dealing with the latest arguments and science.

  • jesse

    One thing I don’t get: I assume this applies to Christian seminaries. I never hear about this kind of craziness at Yeshivas. Yeah, the ultra-Orthodox can be dogmatic and all the Bad Things. But they don’t go around denying that evolution happens or solar fusion does.

    (This doesn’t mean the “I’ve been betrayed” thing doesn’t happen among Jews. But it’s a different thing going on).

    • Daniel Fincke

      Jesse, the tradition of disputations among commentators is deep in Judaism with the Talmud. A defining feature of Evangelicalism, back to Luther and then redoubled with the 20th Century fundamentalism is a primitivism that worships the sacred text and the (fantasy) original church and eschews the centuries of traditional interpretation, with its tendency to accept the evolution of knowledge.

    • Robert B.

      Yes, someone once told me about this interesting bit of Jewish theology: if the sacred text seems to be contradicted by the real world, you are misinterpreting the sacred text. I don’t know how widely held it is – in fact, I can’t even be sure the person who told it to me was correct – but it impressed me.

    • Jesse

      @Daniel and Robert:

      The disputation tradition is probably it, then — I mean, my grandfather left Yeshiva because he felt they could be illogical about things (there’s a whole story there, he eventually became a noted biochemist) but I have never heard even the most religious Jew deny science. There is a semi-mystical streak among the Kabbalists, but it is nothing like what you crazy gentiles come up with :-)

      As to that bit of theology — I think a lot of Jews, even religious ones, simply take the position that something like solar fusion simply isn’t covered in the Torah, any more than automobiles are. That is, there really isn’t a lot in say, physics that matters to Torah scholars. I’m not entirely sure how the Orthodox deal with evolution — for some reason here in New York City it doesn’t come up. Or it might have and nobody noticed since the community is tight-knit and a lot of internal stuff never makes it to the outside. It isn’t like there are no Orthodox Jewish scientists or technology experts, as any trip to B&H Photo or CUNY will demonstrate.

  • plutosdad

    As an aside, I learned last year that the Moody Bible Institute was founded pretty much to combat German Higher Criticism. I think of that almost every day since I ride by on my way to work, and think “here is an ‘educational’ institution that is FOUNDED on suppressing thought”

  • raven

    FYI, here is a list of Expelled scientists and science supporters by fundie creationists. It’s a long list.

    Xians haven’t given up hunting down witches, scientists, and heretics. They just don’t kill them anymore. Because the modern State won’t let them.

    Hitchens: Xianity lost its best argument when it stopped burning people alive on stacks of firewood.

    Posting the list of who is really being beaten up, threatened, fired, attempted to be fired, and killed. Not surprisingly, it is scientists and science supporters by Death Cultists.

    If anyone has more info add it. Also feel free to borrow or steal the list.

    I thought I’d post all the firings of professors and state officials for teaching or accepting evolution.

    2 professors fired, Bitterman (SW CC Iowa) and Bolyanatz (Wheaton)

    1 persecuted unmercifully Richard Colling (Olivet) Now resigned under pressure.

    1 persecuted unmercifully for 4 years Van Till (Calvin)

    1 attempted firing Murphy (Fuller Theological by Phillip Johnson IDist)

    1 successful death threats, assaults harrasment Gwen Pearson (UT Permian)

    1 state official fired Chris Comer (Texas)

    1 assault, fired from dept. Chair Paul Mirecki (U. of Kansas)

    1 killed, Rudi Boa, Biomedical Student (Scotland)

    1 fired Brucke Waltke noted biblical scholar

    Biology Department fired, La Sierra SDA University

    1 attempted persecution Richard Dawkins by the Oklahoma state legislature

    Vandalism Florida Museum of Natural History

    Death Threats Eric Pianka UT Austin and the Texas
    Academy of Science engineered by a hostile, bizarre IDist named Bill Dembski

    Death Threats Michael Korn, fugitive from justice, towards the UC Boulder biology department and miscellaneous evolutionary biologists.

    Death Threats Judge Jones Dover trial. He was under federal marshall protection for a while

    Up to 16 with little effort. Probably there are more. I turned up a new one with a simple internet search. Haven’t even gotten to the secondary science school teachers.

    And the Liars of Expelled, the movie have the nerve to scream persecution. On body counts the creos are way ahead.

    • raven

      I’ll add here that if xianity was true, they wouldn’t have to lie or burn people to death on stacks of firewood.