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The Christian Message

The Thinking Atheist has put together another high-quality and humbling video (humbling because this sets the bar very high for the rest of us trying to add to the discussion).

Here’s the Christian message told in a frank but sympathetic way (4:16).

https://youtube.googleapis.com/v/1Rwioe1SGkQ

About Bob Seidensticker
  • Rick T

    The fact that you consider this frank and sympathetic is evidence of why an atheist should not be responsible for telling the Christian message. The infant in the video is not worthless, but incalculably worthy of God’s love. He is not guilty of killing God’s son. God reveals Himself in countless ways through natural revelation and also special revelation to those who wrote the scriptures. The depictions of heaven and hell are twisted and false. You rail against the God at whom you are angry and choose to avoid considering the possibility of His being a real entity who loves each of us more than you love your own kids. I don’t doubt that atheists think. Only that they think of themselves differently than God does. This comment will garner responses for comments and explanations and will cause you and others to complain vigorously, and that’s OK. But until you are willing to think with a truly open mind and consider the evidence that is indeed there, there will be little point in further trying to explain the message that this video so horrifically warps into falsehood.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      The infant in the video is not worthless, but incalculably worthy of God’s love.

      Will the adult the infant grows into ever be worthy of heaven? I’ve heard Christians say no.

      He is not guilty of killing God’s son.

      So you reject Original Sin®?

      God reveals Himself in countless ways through natural revelation and also special revelation to those who wrote the scriptures.

      “Special revelation” is a claim without substantiation. Doesn’t help me at all. As for natural revelation, what do we do with a feature of reality where we have a plausible natural explanation and “God did it.” Which explanation do we pick? For me, it’s invariably the natural explanation. I don’t know for certain that that’s the best one, of course, but it’s the best approximation I have to the truth.

      You rail against the God at whom you are angry and choose to avoid considering the possibility of His being a real entity who loves each of us more than you love your own kids.

      Can you be angry at something you don’t believe in? My anger is sometimes focused at Christians, not at God. They exist! And also at the belief system.

      I’ve heard the claim that God loves each of us more deeply than we can imagine, but again that’s just an unsubstantiated claim. And the depictions of God in the Bible are often hideous. And then there’s the whole hell thing—not the actions of a “loving” god.

      until you are willing to think with a truly open mind and consider the evidence that is indeed there, there will be little point in further trying to explain the message that this video so horrifically warps into falsehood.

      I say I’m open minded and you disagree. I’m not sure this angle will get us anywhere.

    • Paul

      I enjoyed your comments Rick, well said

  • Bob Calvan

    Amen Rick T.

    This video has some many false assumptions and lies. I wish the atheist would at least learn the Christian message. Before making a fool of himself. Maybe that’s why the scriptures tell us ;”..The fool in his heart says there is no God.”

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      If you want to make clear the errors, go ahead.

      • Retro

        If you want to make clear the errors, go ahead.

        I doubt you’ll get any response other than “you simply can’t understand it because you’re an atheist.”

        Maybe Rick T or Bob C copuld provide a link to a video that has the “correct” Christian message…

  • Bob Calvan

    The beginning of this absurd misrepresentation of Christianity.. Starts with the idea that the infant is worthless. That is an unbiblical view..We are all made in the image of God..And God is not worthless.

    Yes we are all sinners ( we have broken God’s laws) but we are not worthless.

    Next it says:

    “You must ask forgiveness not for anything you have done but for what others did thousands of years ago…”

    Which is the complete opposite of the doctrine of repentance for forgiveness of sins. This has nothing to do with Christianity?

    Next it says:

    “You must tell God how sorry you are for murdering His Son Jesus…”

    Again unbiblical.. Where does the bible say we murdered God’s Son? And where are we told we are to tell God we are sorry for murdering His Son?

    What ever fool wrote this pathetic garbage, has no Idea of the doctrine of Soteriology, the Atonement, or the Sovereignty of God.

    But what do you expect from a hater of God?

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      Thanks for your comments.

      The beginning of this absurd misrepresentation of Christianity.. Starts with the idea that the infant is worthless. That is an unbiblical view.

      My interpretation was that the infant wasn’t worthless but unworthy. That is, this infant will be unworthy to enter heaven.

      “You must ask forgiveness not for anything you have done but for what others did thousands of years ago…”

      How do you view Original Sin? Does it exist? Are we tainted by it?

      But what do you expect from a hater of God?

      Good catch. How can anyone of a different religion or even no religion expect to be coherent about anything?

    • Retro

      Bob C wrote: The beginning of this absurd misrepresentation of Christianity.. Starts with the idea that the infant is worthless. That is an unbiblical view..We are all made in the image of God..And God is not worthless.

      First of all, exactly how many babies (made in His image) has God killed? The Old Testament is filled with stories where God killed all the firstborn of Egypt, God killed entire families including children, babies were killed during the Canannite conquest, and God killed all the babies during the Noahic flood, and I could go on and on…

      Bob C wrote: Yes we are all sinners ( we have broken God’s laws) but we are not worthless.

      You may wish to re-read your Bible:

      Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

      • Retro

        Romans 3:10-12 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

        What… you have no response Bob Calvan?

  • Bob Calvan

    So in conclusion this video is irrelevant as it has nothing to do with Christianity.

  • Greg Patenaude

    Hi Bob,
    I appreciate your posts, however I have a bone to pick with you. If you are an atheist why is it that you exert so much effort in trying to show that the Christian view is incorrect? Surely this is the way that the majority of people in the world act- us vs. them, right vs. wrong- but it is utterly unfulfilling and a mindless waste of time. If you have confidence in your view, then tell your story of the world and how to act in the world based on that view. People who connect with that will either change their view or at the very least want to emulate your perspective. It takes a lot of fearlessness to reject the existence of a god, because that means that we are responsible for our world. Most people don’t want that kind of responsibility. No amount of prostelytizing or logical analysis will do. You need to give people a different story.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      Greg:

      If you are an atheist why is it that you exert so much effort in trying to show that the Christian view is incorrect?

      If Christianity had the benign impact on society as knitting does, I’d find another hobby. If a Christian simply wants to be a Christian, that’s fine with me. The U.S. Constitution guarantees that right (and to have a church, and to proselytize, and to have the government keep out, and so on). No problem. It’s when Christianity crosses the dike that we have a problem–the Ten Commandments in the courthouse, prayer and Creationism in public schools, tax money supporting Christian nativity scenes, and so on.

      Even if religion stayed within bounds, there’s the problem of the illogical thinking in my fellow citizens. People convert/deconvert all the time.

      You’re right that this isn’t a slam-dunk thing where the atheist gives a 5-minute summary of atheism and the Christian says, “Wow–I never thought about it that way. Thanks! I’m an atheist too now.” But there’s always the “placing stone in the shoe” technique (a Greg Koukl term), where we give someone something to think about that months or years down the road flowers into disbelief.

      But if you have any ideas about how to get Christians to listen, I’d like to hear them. You mentioned “a different story”–replace faith with reason, I assume?

      • Greg Patenaude

        Well I think you are going to find that you are on a slippery slope if you worry about other people’s views and how they affect society. All people are going to have a view of some sort, and in reality they all boil down to either an eternalist or a nihilist view. Everyone is located somewhere along that spectrum- some thing exists, or it doesn’t. Therein lies a deep seated problem, both of those are wrong views. Of course you can apply logic and reasoning to right those wrong views, hopefully have some well placed stones along the way, but you cannot fix collective ignorance.

        It just takes a very brief and superficial scan of today’s world to see all the problems that wrong views have created. One of the recent trends in our collective consciousness is that many people are forming rigid ideologies centered around their religion, political party, nation, etc. But there is a bigger shift occurring as well- that of tolerance, appreciation of diversity, compassion and mutual respect. Connected with both of these is a single intent, people want to be happy, they want to get rid of the pain and suffering they are experiencing in search of something that gives them strength and purpose.

        I don’t think we can right all the wrong views, but I do think that it is possible to start with ourselves, our family, our community, state and nation to foster mutual respect and appreciation amongst a diversity of ideas and faiths. We really don’t want a homogenous state free from struggle and strife (that is numb euphoria called …… college), rather what I think we want is a sense of inner contentment and happiness that allows us to enter into and appreciate the diversity of all that appears and exists (or doesn’t) around us.

        Of course, that is just my view.

        Shantideva:

        To cover all the earth with leather-
        Where could such amounts of skin be found?
        But with just the leather soles of my shoes
        It is as though I cover all the earth!

        And thus the outer course of things
        I myself cannot restrain.
        But let me just restrain my mind,
        And what is left to be restrained?

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        Greg:

        Starting with yourself–sounds like a good attitude.

        I’m trying to be more public and more broad with my thinking … but maybe my way of starting with myself is simply a public one. In that case, we’d be on the same page.

  • Paul

    Hi Bob, back again, interesting Blog. Could I ask, are you trying to convert “Christians” or are you just being argumentative?

    Throw it out there and see what happens mentality?

    Or are you really seeking the truth?

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      are you trying to convert “Christians” or are you just being argumentative?

      Deconverting Christians takes a long time. The best I can hope for is to put a stone in their shoe (Greg Koukl’s words).

      My goal is to encourage Christians to think about the foundation of their religion. Is it real or is it just a cultural element?

      Or are you really seeking the truth?

      There’s an asymmetry here where I set the agenda, so it’s more me getting my word out. But yes, there’s a back and forth too. And yes, I’m really seeking the truth. If God really exists, I wish Christians would stop fooling around with the weak arguments that I see and give me the good stuff. I’m happy to accept that things exist. For God, however, there’s scant evidence.

      • Paul

        I believe the evidence is clear. Creation exists all around you Bob, and it is screaming of design and intelligence.
        Questions such as which came first the chicken or the egg? Evolution cannot answer this and other questions. But a designer and architect of creation can.

        other things such as Metamorphisis. Only a dsigner and achitect of creation gives logical answers to such questions.

        Once you acceept a designer all, other questions have logical answers Bob. But to understand these you need to accept a designer of creation which is all powerful and intelligent and it will become clear.

      • Retro

        Paul wrote: “I believe the evidence is clear.”

        So what are you Paul, a Deist?

        Even if one accepts any of your indirect evidence as proof of a Designer, it still really tells you nothing about the Designer except that this Designer likes to spontaneous abortions and natural disasters.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        Paul:

        The fact that the world is flat screams out all around you. And yet it’s not. Maybe our Stone Age intuitions need to be tempered with science.

        Metamorphosis? You mean caterpillar to butterfly? Why is science unable to answer this?

        Why argue for me to accept Yahweh as a designer? Why not the Flying Spaghetti Monster? “God did it!” has been wrong uncountably many times in the past, as science finds the real answer. Shouldn’t you be a little humble about this explanation’s ability to stand up in the future?

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