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Believers are Products of their Environment

What fraction of Muslims were not raised in a Muslim environment? What fraction of Christians were not raised in a Christian environment? What does it say about the validity of religious claims that people typically take on the religion of their culture?

When someone gets a religious vision, why does it have elements from that person’s religion and not some other religion? Why do Hindus not get visions of Mary or Jesus or Christian angels, and why do Christians not get visions of Hindu gods?

To avoid the charge of special pleading, Christians must argue that they were just extraordinarily lucky to have been born in a place and time in which the correct religion happened to be available.

Religion is like language. I speak English because I was raised in America. I didn’t evaluate all the languages of the world before I picked the best one; it was just part of my environment.

Any Christian will tell you that babies born to Muslim parents are almost exclusively Muslim for no more profound reason than that they were raised in a Muslim environment. Why should it be any different for babies born to Christian parents?

Christians aren’t Christian because Christianity is true, but because they were born into a Christian environment. Christianity is a cultural trait, not a reflection of the truth.

What religion a man shall have is a historical accident,
quite as much as what language he shall speak.
— George Santayana

(This is a modification of a post that originally appeared 9/16/11.)

Photo credit: Wikipedia

About Bob Seidensticker
  • Ted Seeber

    I have a member of my Knights of Columbus council that was raised in a Muslim environment. He’s from Ghana. Many of the Christians were actively slaughtered in that region of Africa.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      I’m simply talking about a tendency. The question remains.

  • Ted Seeber

    Also, just about every Catholic of my generation left the church for a while when they were between the ages of 16 and 25. Most religions in fact have this. What do you say to those of us who “reverted” *after* spending some time reading and evaluating other philosophies?

    • MountainTiger

      This fits neatly into a model in which familial and cultural factors are dominant in forming religious identity, as most people raised in a religious tradition don’t cut themselves off from their family and childhood influences.

    • J-Rex

      The familiar is comforting. It’s easier to understand the philosophies and values of something you were raised in than another religion. You know that if you go back, you’ll still know all the rituals and songs. If you’re not comfortable in a new religion, it’s not going to feel profound to you.
      It’s also easier to scoff at the supernatural claims of another religion. When you hear a story about a miracle as a kid, you’re willing to believe it since you’ll believe anything. When you hear a story about a miracle for the first time as an adult, you’ll be a lot more skeptical.

    • plutosdad

      Really? They all spent time reading and evaluating other philosophies? or did they just stop going to church?
      I know very few people that read philosophy, most people think it’s a waste of time, even many atheists I’ve met, let alone theists.

      • JohnH

        You misunderstood what he was saying, he was asking about all of the Catholics that eventually come back to the Catholic church because they start studying philosophy not in spite of it. You also clearly don’t understand that Catholicism has parts of it that are all about philosophy.

  • http://www.ephesians4-15.blogspot.ca Randy

    The question is not what but what should be. The data does show many people are not very reflective when it comes to religion. I would say that is true for atheists as well. An atheist who rejected fundamentalism simply cannot grasp that Catholicism does not have the same issues. People put themselves and their own opinions in the center for not good reason. It is just easier. So people rarely step back and think, why am I a Methodist, or a Calvinist, or whatever. Is Christianity really the true religion and is my Christian tradition the most true?

    I asked those questions. The first when I decided to embrace my Christian faith fully. The second was when I started to fellowship with other Christians and encountered the Catholic church. It changes your faith once you do that. I would never have admitted as a protestant that I was afraid of some religious questions but I really was. My conversion made me face them and boy was that hard.

    • Blessed Jim

      I find your comment very interesting. I left Roman Catholicism as a young adult and became a liberal Protestant for the very reasons the protestant movement began: I rejected the authority of the Catholic church but I did not question the fundamental assumptions of Christianity. Then 30 years later I moved from protestant to atheist when I did ask those really hard religious questions about Christianity.
      I think the religious freedom we have in Western civilization to ask difficult questions about religion is an extremely important right, even if individuals such as you and I end up going in opposite directions on the answer. That is also why I find Patheos such an interesting place to hang out.

    • http://theophor.us Ignatius Theophorus

      Agreed. This is just another case of the fallacious argument, “Confirmation bias invalidates a proposition.” Basically: “People who believe X believe it because unrelated issue Y. Y is false|erroneous. Therefore X must be false.” To swap out different X’s and Y’s, the ridiculousness of the argument becomes manifest: “John believes in representative democracy because the magical goblin under his refrigerator told him that democracy is French for ‘pixy-dust.’” Now, while there may be any number of things wrong with the goblin, the etymology, and perhaps even the refrigerator, none of that has any bearing on whether representative democracy has merit.

      As to this point:

      Why do Hindus not get visions of Mary or Jesus or Christian angels, and why do Christians not get visions of Hindu gods?

      This is just false and akin to asking “Why is the sky made out of grapes?” There are accounts of Hindu’s seeing Christian Saints, Constantine saw the cross, and Saul of Tarsus was asked, “why do you persecute?”

      • Bob Seidensticker

        I’m missing the fallacy. I don’t say that everyone in an environment with religion X predominant becomes a believer.

        As for Hindus seeing Christian saints, this too causes no problem to my thesis. What would be important evidence, however, would be Hindus who had never had any knowledge of Christianity whatsoever becoming Christian. I’ll bet that such stories exist, but I doubt that the evidence is particularly ironclad.

        • Nate Sauve

          So basically you are saying. I don’t think this kind of thing happens and even if it does, I will choose to ignore it.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          No, this isn’t what I am saying.

    • http://exconvert.blogspot.com Kacy

      Randy, I also asked those questions–first when I decided to become very committed to my Baptist upbringing and really began studying the Bible; Then when I decided that the Bible was pointing to Calvinism; Then when I realized that the Bible was collected and put-together by the Catholic Church. I recognized that the Catholic Church gave authority to the Bible and that the root of Christian authority was in the Catholic Church. When I finally started questioning that authority and, indeed, the pressupositions of Christianity itself, I became an atheist.

      Converting to the Catholic Church from a Protestant upbringing isn’t much different from switching from one Hindu sect to another or one Muslim sect to another. The basics are still there–a general belief in the Bible (although different interpretations), and a basic belief in Jesus as the Son of God. You are still praying to the same God. It’s not really a huge switch from your upbringing, despite the protests from anti-Catholic Protestants.

    • J-Rex

      I can’t stand this argument. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard “Well you’ve never tried Catholicism…”
      Have you ever tried Mormonism? Christian Science? Orthodox? You don’t have to try every religion out there to know you don’t want any of it. No, I never tried Catholicism, but I did go to mass with my boyfriend a few times and I found it extremely unappealing. I think that some personalities are drawn to it more than others. I never liked it because I don’t like doing things when I don’t know why I’m doing them and I just can’t believe that someone becomes infallible just by having a job with the job description “infallible.”
      It helped me see the flaws of religion in general because I was looking at it from the outside. So I’ll add Catholicism to the list of things that made me an atheist.

  • http://www.ephesians4-15.blogspot.ca Randy

    Bl John Henry Newman said that Catholicism and atheism were the only coherent options. You either assume that God is real and I just need to find Him to find Truth or you assume that I am probably right about most things and all this religion stuff is just in the way. Protestantism he saw as a hybrid. It didn’t totally trust God and didn’t totally embrace the self either.

    Anyway, hearing you talk about our different directions made me think of that.

    • J-Rex

      I wouldn’t say it doesn’t totally trust God, it just totally trusts God in a different way than other denominations. They all ignore many of God’s commands and completely trust whichever version of God they like to trust.
      You could also say that Catholicism doesn’t totally trust God because they need someone to speak for him and tell them what to think. Protestants just don’t trust that a person is infallible. Sure, they’ll trust their pastors more than the average person, but if their pastor says something they don’t agree with, they’ll switch churches. That’s why there’s so many Protestant denominations.

  • http://exconvert.blogspot.com Kacy

    I suppose one could go the way of Rodney Stark in Discovering God, and say that there could be a core “God” in all these religions that people from different cultures are discovering in different ways. Stark, of course, remains agnostic on the issue and merely brings up the possibility. This idea still wouldn’t work for orthodox believers in any religion, but it is an alternative explanation.

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    When someone gets a religious vision, why does it have elements from that person’s religion and not some other religion? Why do Hindus not get visions of Mary or Jesus or Christian angels, and why do Christians not get visions of Hindu gods?

    There are lots of stories of Muslims coming to Christ after a process of investigating Christianity that started with a dream of Jesus.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Karl: That those stories exist doesn’t surprise me too much. But what I want is (1) unimpeachable evidence that (2) someone who had absolutely no acquaintance with the ideas of Christianity learns about the religion through dreams or visions.

      • DrewL

        What I want to see is (1) unimpeachable evidence that (2) someone who had absolutely no acquaintance with modern science learns about germ theory through dreams or visions.

        Or the alternative suggestion: perhaps the occurrence you’re looking for is a ridiculous way to verify the truth of a belief.

        • J-Rex

          You don’t know the difference between science and religion, do you?
          We wouldn’t expect to see people magically come to the right conclusions without science because science is something you discover, not something that has a will of its own and appears to you in a supernatural vision.
          Religion claims to do this, therefore we should expect to find that happen if religion is true.

        • DrewL

          Religion claims to do this, therefore we should expect to find that happen if religion is true.

          Citation needed. Religion has a “will of its own and appears to you in a supernatural vision”? So this is true for all six billion religious people in the world? Wow that’s a lot of supernatural visions.

          I think you mean “the religion I proudly rejected from my upbringing told me it would appear to me in a supernatural vision.” I’m sorry someone misinformed you: it’s not official doctrine in any religion I’ve ever heard of.

        • J-Rex

          You are completely misinterpreting me.
          Many religions claim that their deity speaks to people in dreams and visions. Never once did I say that religions claim their deity speaks to all people in dreams or visions. I’d love for you to point out where I said that.
          Nope, never said or meant that my ex-religion told me it would appear to me in a supernatural vision. I simply said that science *never* appears to people in a supernatural vision.
          It’s like if I say “Unlike birds, fish can’t fly,” and you respond with, “You think ostriches and penguins can fly??” It’s not something I said, and you have to deliberately misinterpret it to pretend I did.

          Religion claims to do this, therefore we should expect to find that happen if religion is true.
          As in, if people claim that birds can fly, we should expect to find birds that fly. That doesn’t mean every bird can fly. “Expect to find that happen,” not “expect that to always be the case 100% of the time.”

        • DrewL

          J-Rex, you’re correct, I did misinterpret you. However now you need to clarify this statement:
          … science is something you discover, not something that has a will of its own and appears to you in a supernatural vision.

          Otherwise, what you’re saying is true but not all that relevant to the discussion at hand.

        • J-Rex

          I’m not sure why you think it’s irrelevant. You made a failed comparison between religion and science and then used that to say that Bob’s request for evidence for a vision was a bad way of determining something’s truth.
          Yes, that’s a terrible way if we’re talking about science, but it’s not terrible at all if we’re talking about religion. *Some* people claim to have visions from deities and use that as proof that their religion is correct. But if God has the power to appear to people in dreams or visions, you would expect him to do that to people who don’t already know about him. Otherwise it makes a lot more sense that people just dream or hallucinate about stuff that their own culture believes in, not a god that is real no matter where you were born.

        • DrewL

          But if God has the power to appear to people in dreams or visions, you would expect him to do that to people who don’t already know about him.

          “you would expect” is a pretty weak way to start any argument. This is what scholars call “moral protest atheism”: we declare there is no god because if there was, he’s not doing what we want him to do!
          But please, cite a source…technically you need one for every religion, unless you’re going to narrow down your argument to critiquing one religion.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Drew:

          Suppose (as I suspect) that people only have visions or dreams of Jesus or Mary after they’ve been exposed to Christianity. Are you saying that Jesus appearing only to people already familiar with him is the way it would work if he really existed? You see no challenge to your faith in this?

        • DrewL

          “Challenge to my faith?” Heh, do you even know what I believe?

          Maybe this is the difference between you reading Christian apologists all the time and me not, but WHO is having visions of dreams of Jesus and Mary? Is there some data on this? Or is some self-declared religious authority claiming these “prove” something about faith?

          Perhaps you can produce an authoritative source to explain to me why it should challenge my faith: right now I couldn’t be more indifferent to self-claimed dreams of Jesus and Mary.

  • arthur1526

    What to say to an ill person who lacks patience!
    From Risalei Nur collection by Said Nursi.
    http://www.nur.gen.tr/en.html#leftmenu=Risale&maincontent=Risale&islem=read&KitapId=494&BolumId=8752&KitapAd=The+Flashes+(Revised+2009+edition)&Page=266

    Be patient, indeed, offer thanks! Your illness may transform each of the minutes of your life into the equivalent of an hour’s worship. For worship is of two kinds. One is positive like the well-known worship of supplication and the five daily prayers. The other are negative forms of worship like illness and calamities. By means of these, those afflicted realize their impotence and weakness; they beseech their All-Compassionate Creator and take refuge in Him; they manifest worship which is sincere and without hyprocrisy. Yes, there is a sound narration stating that a life passed in illness is counted as worship for the believer – on
    condition he does not complain about God. It is even established by sound narrations
    and by those who uncover the realities of creation that one minute’s illness of some people who are completely patient and thankful becomes the equivalent of an hour’s worship and a minute’s illness of certain perfected men the equivalent of a day’s worship. So you should not complain about an illness which as though transforms one minute of your life into a thousand minutes and gains for you long life; you should offer thanks.

  • DrewL

    1. Religion varies by country.
    2. People born in a particular country are likely to take on that country’s religion.
    3. Therefore, no religions are true.

    Let’s browse on over here:
    http://www.gallup.com/poll/117772/Awareness-Opinions-Global-Warming-Vary-Worldwide.aspx

    Looks like there is a great variation in the percentage of people who believe in human-caused global warming. South Korea is at 92%, Tajikstan is at 15%. There’s also a study in a Guardian article that suggests great variation in the percentage of respondents who believe in evolution by country: 8% in Egypt and South Africa, 55% in China.

    Therefore:
    1. Views on evolution and global warming vary by country and culture.
    2. People born in a particular country are likely to take on that country’s views on evolution and global warming.
    3. Therefore, no views on evolution and global warming are true.

    If that doesn’t sound sufficiently foolish, let’s plug this into Bob’s post so we know what we’re arguing here:
    Evolutionary theory adherents aren’t evolutionary theory adherents because evolution is true, but because they were born into a evolutionary theory-supporting environment. Evolutionary theory adherence is a cultural trait, not a reflection of the truth.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Drew:

      1. Religion varies by country.
      2. People born in a particular country are likely to take on that country’s religion.
      3. Therefore, no religions are true.

      Wow–who says that?

      1. Views on evolution and global warming vary by country and culture.

      Evolution and global warming are science. Religion is not science.

      Religious belief is decided by individuals, but no one cares what individuals think about science.

      There are probably other differences you can find. I’ll leave them as an exercise to the reader.

      • DrewL

        Ah okay, my bad. Let me update your argument:

        1. Beliefs about reality vary by country.
        2. People born in a particular country are likely to take on that country’s belief about reality.
        3. Science is true, all religions are not true.
        4. Therefore, all religions are not true.

        Or put in other words: beliefs I don’t profess should be viewed with great suspicion because they resemble the environment in which they emerged. Those poor cultural dupes. Oh, my own beliefs? All facts and truth, thank you.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Why update my argument? Wasn’t it already stated in the blog post?

          You can make this argument; I don’t. My argument has already been stated. Your lampooning of it is not my argument. But thanks for playing.

        • DrewL

          There’s really no argument here besides religion is wrong because it’s religion. “Science” is right because it’s science. All this “product of the environment” stuff quickly fell away when you saw it could threaten the legitimacy of your own beliefs. Now we’re back to science=infallible, religion=foolish.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Drew:

          Science has proven itself; it delivers on what it claims. Religion doesn’t.

          But that’s not the point here. I’m saying that the fact that there is a strong correlation between belief and environment. Given, therefore, that many people believe, not because their religion is true, but because it’s what they grew up with, what does that say about the truth of religious claims?

        • DrewL

          And I’m saying there is a strong correlation between belief and environment when it comes to beliefs about evolution, human-caused global warming, atheism, germ theory, the second law of thermodynamics, Einstein’s theory of relativity….heck, even gender equality, human rights, civil rights, freedom of conscience, freedom of religion…etc. etc. etc.

          So “given therefore that many people believe [these things], not because [these things] are true, but because it’s what they grew up with, what does that say about the truth of [these things]?”

          When you notice your argument fares terribly in every other type of knowledge (the veracity of a belief is NOT threatened by believer-environment correlations for any of these other things), you quickly slip into your argument the unverified, unverifiable, non-scientific axiom (or really, prejudice) that religion is somehow subject to this arbitrarily-imposed truth criteria that no other knowledge is.

          So you’re up to bat here: why does the criteria apply to religion, but all other knowledge is exempt?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          And I’m saying there is a strong correlation between belief and environment when it comes to beliefs about

          And here we go, back to square one. Science and religion, as we’ve discussed, don’t come to conclusions the same way. Science works, and there is only one. Religion doesn’t work, and there are many incompatible versions.

          Congrats for the old kindergarten try, but equating these two doesn’t work.

        • DrewL

          Ah I see. Why didn’t you just tell me I was right when I said:
          There’s really no argument here besides religion is wrong because it’s religion. “Science” is right because it’s science. All this “product of the environment” stuff quickly fell away when you saw it could threaten the legitimacy of your own beliefs. Now we’re back to science=infallible, religion=foolish.

          It’s unfortunate you’ve misled the rest of these commentors to think you actually are making an argument about cultural environments here. It’s unfortunate you didn’t just name the post “Religion doesn’t work because it’s not science.”

          At this point I typically point out that “scientism” and “logical positivism” and your blind faith in the neutral objectivity of science are borderline anti-intellectual beliefs that have been debunked by philosophers for half a century. Then I beg you to read ATHEISTS (and put down the Christian apologists!) who could help you get a better grasp on how science actually works, what it presupposes, and what it can tell us about religion. Then you tell me you are too busy to be bothered with these “reading assignments.” It’s clear to me you get a lot more satisfaction from reading William Lane Craig and second-rate Christian work than anything that would challenge or help you develop your beliefs. Far be it for me to stand between you and the pleasure you get from reading small minds and their poor arguments, but just know: you’re really missing all the good critical-thinking action (and some absolute game-changing work by atheists of the last century) when you sequester yourself so far away from the major intellectual currents of theology, philosophy, psychology, sociology, etc. Should you ever change your mind and want reading recommendations or wikipedia articles to read, please let me know.

  • DrewL

    Also, from American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us, page 126 on “religious nones.” (Keep in mind less than half of religious nones are atheists, atheist as a group are generally too small to study statistically in nationally-representative surveys.)

    Men, whites, and non-Southerners are more likely to be nones than women, nonwhites, and Southerners…new nones are drawn from groups traditionally less predisposed to religious commitment…These nones were disproportionally raised in nonreligious backgrounds.
    (Goes on to say that 74% of religious nones had religiously-affiliated parents, which is about the national average of people reporting religiously-affiliated parents)

    The more recent study on nones by the Pew Forum reports the most recent growth since 2007 occurred entirely among unmarried people and mostly among whites.

    So we’ve got trouble again:
    Nonreligious people aren’t nonreligious people because nonreligion is true, but because they were disproportionally born into a nonreligious environment and are likely white, non-southern, unmarried, and male. Nonreligion is a cultural (or environmental or life phase) trait, not a reflection of the truth.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Consider the different worldview–Catholicism, Hinduism, Scientology, atheism, and all the rest–and ask yourself, Which of these things is not like the other?

      Atheism attempts to find things by reason. All the others use faith. That’s why your attempt to tar atheists with the religious brush fails.

      • JohnH

        Sorry, but Catholicism has parts of it that bigger on finding answers to things by reason then any atheist and most of the atheist arguments against the Catholic arguments make it clear that the atheist making them doesn’t have the slightest clue as to what they are arguing against, and I am not Catholic. It is also perfectly consistent for one to be both atheist and Hindu.

        What is amazing to me is the claim to reason and the many atheist waiting for the singularity when there AI god comes, wipes all their tears away, grants them immortality, and they are uploaded to become one with their god and then they make fun of those Christians that are waiting for the second coming when their god comes, wipes all their tears away, grants them immortality, and they become one with their god. I am sure all the atheist that believe in the singularity do so because it is perfectly reasonable.

        • Nox

          Catholicism is not concerned with reason. Catholicism is concerned with coming up with reasonable sounding reasons for believing the doctrines determined by bishops and popes with no concern for reason.

        • JohnH

          Catholic premises weren’t determined by bishops or popes but by Aristotelian and neoplatonic philosophers. Arguing against someone holding the positions of St. Thomas Aquinas requires knowing that one is arguing primarily against Aristotle.

        • Nox

          Aquinas didn’t invent the tenets of catholicism. He rationalized them. That’s why Aquinas’ own church declared him a heretic during his lifetime. Because he tried to apply reason to christianity. A new idea 1300 years after christ which the church opposed adamantly. It was only later when they realized the benefit of the veneer of reason this heretic had given their doctrines by repurposing Aristotle that he was canonized.

          Apologetics should not be confused with doctrine. In catholicism the doctrine (ie what catholics officially believe) comes first. Those beliefs are determined not by reason but by decree. The rationalization comes later, and takes as a starting point that the doctrine must be true. Catholic reason is only concerned with coming up with reasons for people to believe these already determined doctrines.

          Also most catholics do not hold the positions of Thomas Aquinas (many catholics and protestants incorrectly hold the position that Aquinas made good arguments for their god, or was talking about the same version of god they believe in). On average, they hold the positions of their local priest and know next to nothing of the history and philosophy of their own church.

        • JohnH

          I think you are forgetting that Augustine and Justin Martyr both also applied reason to Christianity; Neo-platonic rather then Aristotelian. The whole Nicene creed is based on arguments stemming from bringing together neo-platonic thought with Christianity.

          “On average, they hold the positions of their local priest and know next to nothing of the history and philosophy of their own church.”

          On average Catholics don’t go to church except for Easter and Christmas and the main unifying position that they hold is that they were born Catholic and will die Catholic and that is it.

        • Mr. X

          “Because he tried to apply reason to christianity. A new idea 1300 years after christ which the church opposed adamantly.”

          That’s utter rubbish. Sorry to be so blunt, but there you are. There were plenty of people applying reason to Christianity before Aquinas. Try getting a good introduction to Patristics if you don’t believe me.

          “In catholicism the doctrine (ie what catholics officially believe) comes first. Those beliefs are determined not by reason but by decree.”

          So how do you think the Church comes up with those doctrines in the first place, if not by rational argument?

          “On average, they hold the positions of their local priest and know next to nothing of the history and philosophy of their own church.”

          On average, most people have the same scientific opinions of their high school science teachers and know next to nothing of the justification for these opinions. So what?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          X:

          most people have the same scientific opinions of their high school science teachers and know next to nothing of the justification for these opinions. So what?

          Comparing scientific beliefs and teachings with those of religion falls apart pretty quickly.

          Science delivers. Religion doesn’t. The single science that is taught worldwide has been pretty well vetted. There is no single religious belief; it varies by region.

        • Mr. X

          “Science delivers. Religion doesn’t.”

          Delivers what, exactly?

        • DrewL

          Mr. X: I believe Bob is a believer in the sacred religion of scientism.

          Relevant definition from wikipedia: In essence, scientism sees science as the absolute and only justifiable access to the truth.

          This book discusses the failures of scientism quite well and the inability of the new atheists to recognize they have a self-sabotaging, faith-based philosophy at the heart of their belief system (link should go to page 17)
          http://books.google.com/books?id=zSIy9yAoJgkC&lpg=PA17&dq=scientism%20new%20atheism&pg=PA17#v=onepage&q=scientism&f=false

        • http://thoughtfulatheist.blogspot.com/ Jake

          “Science delivers. Religion doesn’t.”

          Delivers what, exactly?

          I’m going to go out on a limb here and say “empirical, testable predictions about reality that 1) actually come true, and 2) differentiate a reality in which X is true from a reality in which X is not true.”

          Most religions fail on both counts. Some religions have co-opted known scientific conclusions to pass test 1), but in doing so give up any claim to passing test 2). For example, Catholicism permits belief in evolution, but Catholicism utterly failed to predict evolution. By expanding their description of reality to include the possibility of evolution after-the-fact, they’ve stripped themselves of any predictive power about the origins of humanity. If they can explain any possible reality equally well, then they are not making any factual claims about reality.

        • Mr. X

          @ Jake:

          Well, if you define “delivers” as “delivers scientific theories”, then yes, it’s true that science delivers and religion doesn’t. Mind you, I see no reason to define the term in such a way.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          X:

          Delivers what, exactly?

          Science delivers results.

        • smrnda

          I am an atheist and I do not believe in this ‘singularity’ business. However, the big difference between the transhuman ‘upload’ is that people will be uploaded into something where some type of democracy might be possible, where humans (or transhumans) can make their own rules and figure out how to set priorities. In the Christian doctrine, you get to spend eternity with an irrational being who throws a hissy-fit over consensual adult sex but who couldn’t bother to take the time to argue against slavery, and who can’t seem to fit rape in the top ten No No list, and where the most evocative vision is of a place that’s more or less choir practice in a jeweler’s shop.

        • JohnH

          So basically you think the view of theosis as held by the transhumanists is more appealing the the view of theosis as held by some small segment of Christianity because you think the transhumanist AI-God hold less opinions that you happen to disagree with (or is less irrational as anything that you disagree with must be irrational and have no reason as to why they disagree with you as you are the absolute standard of rationality and reason against which all else must be judged). Obviously the fact that the AI-God doesn’t exist helps as it allows one to project on it and what being one with it would be like whatever one wishes and as we all know creating an idol in ones own understanding and wisdom is the pinnacle of rationality.

        • smrnda

          I don’t believe it does exist, just pointing out that, if it’s a choice of what sounds more appealing, I can see why people find the singularity business more appealing.

          I think a lot about what I think is right or wrong; there are some areas where I’m not certain. It’s just I can think of no rational basis for Christian sexual ethics. (By the way, I’m totally sexually inactive = asexual, so I’m not trying to justify my own behavior here.) I’ve dismissed that part as absurd because nobody can show me who is victimized when two adults engage in consensual, safe, mutually enjoyable sexual acts.

          I’ve been waiting for Christians to come up with a rational case and I don’t think I’ve seen or heard one yet. Occasionally I get ‘well, you just have to trust that god has a reason’ which is just code for ‘stop thinking about the issue and agree with us.’

        • JohnH

          “It’s just I can think of no rational basis for Christian sexual ethics.”

          I can (have) argue that even without believing in God that stable marriage between man and women is preferable to other arrangements from the point of view of societal well being and should therefore be promoted above alternative arrangements. I could also use economic studies, life expectancy, and other data points to argue that chastity has real benefits to the individual. So both society in general and the individual in specific are harmed by consensual, safe, mutually enjoyable sexual acts that occur outside of an already stable relationship. Of course if you are referring to consensual, safe, and mutually enjoyable sexual acts that happen between individuals where either are also in a relationships the person victimized is fairly obvious. If you are referring to such acts where either is in a relationship and has children in that relationship then the harm is to multiple individuals specifically as well as to society.

          If you are asking me to argue against homosexuality in specific then I would have to bring in other premises from my religion, ones that are actually not shared with any other Christian sect. I have no problem with domestic partnerships.

        • smrnda

          I would not disagree that monogamy (hetero or homo) contributes greatly to social stability. However, I disagree that chastity is necessary. Plenty of people eventually enter into long-term or nearly permanent relationships after having had sex with multiple partners for a short time (about everybody I know had a few from the ages of say, 16 to 24.) It didn’t cause a disaster, and in many cases caused no regrets at all. I just think ‘wait until you’re married’ isn’t necessary.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          smrnda: Agreed. Saving yourself for marriage is overrated IMO.

          Foolish sex (sex for the wrong reasons, unsafe sex, etc.) is bad, but you’ve got to get experience somehow. Contraceptive technology (and wisdom from others) can be provide the necessary training wheels.

      • DrewL

        Oh I see. So your argument is: worldviews that are consistently reproduced within certain environments are not true but merely inherited.

        Worldviews that are atheism are true regardless of environmental factors.

        You might as well have cut to the chase: So atheism is true because atheism is true. All religions are not true because they are not atheism. No one will be refuting that argument: you win.

        • Matti

          “Scientism” is a bs term used nowadays only by religious apologists who wouldn’t be qualified to be a photocopy operator at CERN.

  • smrnda

    I mostly reject Catholicism because it reasons from philosophers who had a very limited understanding of how the natural world worked. Aristotle was wrong about a lot of things since the scientific knowledge of his day wasn’t so great, and his views were largely extrapolations based on assumptions about how the physical world worked which we know to be false today. When I read Catholic theology, what I’m basically reading are just arguments by assertion made using highly verbose jargon and obfuscating terminology. Language like that enables constant goal-post-shifting during a discussion since the Catholic always tells me that I’ve got it all wrong, or my request for a re-phrasing in simpler, more concise language just gets me more vague, inflated language. The tradition is likely a hold-over from the Church using latin as opposed to vernacular languages.

    The other thing is the belief that the Catholic isn’t like the Protestant arguing from a book but from facts about the physical world. No where is this claim more laughable than when the Catholic believes that you can make a case against birth control without relying on a pre-existing belief in a God. I mean, if you believe (as I do) that there is no god who created the human race, then there’s no reason we shouldn’t interfere with our biological functions if we don’t like how they are working, and this should go for reproduction as well as for dying our hair. IF you believe that people are created by a god who also set limits about what we should alter and what we shouldn’t then you can believe that, but then it’s a de facto religious teaching.

    The difference (to me) between religious belief and say, science is that religion relies on historical or textual revelation. Science is based on observations – scientists who are geographically isolated should (and often do) come to the same conclusions without communicating with one another. Religions are grounded in the times and places of their revelation. Some person isolated from Christian doctrine may invent something similar, but he isn’t going to come up out of his own mind with a tale about a guy born in 1st century AD.

    • JohnH

      Stepping into a debate on reproduction with Catholics is starting at the wrong end; I am not about to explain their arguments and premises because, as I said, I am not Catholic and I disagree with a good portion of what they argue. Your critique is not unfounded.

      “Religions are grounded in the times and places of their revelation”
      Why do you think God should reveal the same thing to all people? Do you think you need the same rules and knowledge as someone living thousands of years ago and thousands of kilometers away from where you live? Do you think people living thousands of years ago and thousands of kilometers from you would be as well served with receiving the same knowledge as would best serve you?

      “he isn’t going to come up out of his own mind with a tale about a guy born in 1st century AD.”
      A common feature in many religions such as Christianity, Aztec, Mayan, Greek, Egyptian, some others have a God or Son of God being born into the world (often to a virgin), dying to save the world of his own choice, and then being resurrected and caring for the people of the world as long as sacrifices and offerings are made in similitude of his offering. The divine Mayan kings bloodletting, the Jew slaughtering the lambs at the temple, the Aztec human sacrifice, the Christian wine and water, all of them with very similar purposes. Very interesting isn’t it? I will let the reader draw whatever conclusions they will from this.

      • Bob Seidensticker

        John:

        Why do you think God should reveal the same thing to all people?

        Because if rape, genocide, and slavery are objectively wrong, then God should tell everyone ASAP. (And how about a recipe for soap?) That he had all sorts of nutty rules but didn’t include these biggies suggests that he’s made up.

        Very interesting isn’t it?

        Yes, thanks for the list. What do you make of it?

        • JohnH

          Any argument as to why genocide might be moral for God to conduct would require accepting a lot of assumptions that are not shared. Given that people are okay with unpaid internships there are obviously cases where forms of slavery or indentured servitude are moral. I can explain genocide and rape in the law of Moses and I would probably go to something similar to that explanation for other religions assuming they were originally based on something given from God, basically they are allowances given because of the wickedness of the people and not because they are actually moral.

          “What do you make of it?”
          I happen to believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ was first revealed as soon as there were humans and has been revealed many times since at various times and to various peoples such that the similarities are due the people having had the gospel at one time and then falling away from it into idolatry. The birth, death, resurrection cycle is obviously seen in nature with the lunar cycle, the seasons, day and night, and the planting of seeds; however I am unfamiliar with why the shedding of blood for an renewal of covenant and forgiveness would appear so commonly.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          John:

          there are obviously cases where forms of slavery or indentured servitude are moral.

          Well, probably not slavery, but I think I know what you’re saying. Nevertheless, the for-life slavery described in the OT is the same as we had in the US. If the latter is immoral (from our viewpoint), the former should be as well.

          I can explain genocide and rape in the law of Moses and I would probably go to something similar to that explanation for other religions assuming they were originally based on something given from God, basically they are allowances given because of the wickedness of the people and not because they are actually moral.

          Are you saying that the Israelites had to slowly be trained about what was right? That’s certainly not how it worked with the Ten Commandments. Moses comes down from the mountain one day and says, “New rules, folks! Starting today, breaking any of these is pretty much a capital crime.” There was no 10 or 20 generations of warnings before the rules were actually enforced.

          I happen to believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ was first revealed as soon as there were humans

          To Adam and Eve? That’s not what Genesis says.

          … the similarities are due the people having had the gospel at one time and then falling away from it into idolatry

          Why not assume the natural explanation? That’s a much better explanation of the facts.

        • smrnda

          Who is okay with unpaid internships? These have become a huge problems since it’s basically work experience rich kids can get that poor kids can’t, and it’s a huge reason why equal access to education is a joke. The rich kid gets a summer internships with Mommy and Daddy paying the bills, while the poor kids go wait tables to pay for their living expenses.

        • JohnH

          “Are you saying that the Israelites had to slowly be trained about what was right?”

          Yes. Moses came down with the gospel of Jesus Christ after having had the people covenant to really simple rules. They in the mean time had created a golden calf and were having a great party to their new idol, so he broke the tablets containing the gospel and went back up and received the lesser law of Moses. It all there in the Old Testament and is explained explicitly in Galatians in the New.

          “To Adam and Eve? That’s not what Genesis says.”
          If one accepts the existence of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that the gospel is eternal then that is indeed what Genesis is saying, see Galatians.

          “Why not assume the natural explanation? ”
          Because I have read many of the sacred texts of those religions and there are too many similarities in too fine of detail with what I believe for it to be because of a natural explanation. I read the Popol Vuh and I read the accounts found in the Pearl of Great Price, so as to not discuss that which I can not, and I am left without any doubt that they come from the same original source.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          John:

          Moses came down with the gospel of Jesus Christ after having had the people covenant to really simple rules. They in the mean time had created a golden calf and were having a great party to their new idol, so he broke the tablets containing the gospel and went back up and received the lesser law of Moses.

          I don’t know about the gospel of Jesus vs. the lesser law of Moses. Most Christians try to spin the two different versions of the 10 Commandments as the same text, but you’re quite right that Ex. 20 is very different from Ex. 34.

          But if that’s the path you’re taking, you need to explain to the Christians why the 10 C’s that they know and love were actually superseded by the silly set of Ex. 34.

          If one accepts the existence of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that the gospel is eternal then that is indeed what Genesis is saying, see Galatians.

          I don’t care what Gal. says, thanks; I care what Genesis says. The Pentateuch isn’t the “gospel of Jesus Christ.”

          there are too many similarities in too fine of detail with what I believe for it to be because of a natural explanation

          You’re not following the facts where they lead; you’re determined to adjust the facts so that they support your presupposition. But you disagree. You disagree, and I’m not sure what else to say.

        • JohnH

          “You’re not following the facts where they lead; you’re determined to adjust the facts so that they support your presupposition. ”

          You realize that neither the single source hypothesis nor the multiple source hypothesis are actually testable or scientific? I have read both and could give you a long detailed comparison of the two pointing out all the similarities and they are not at all superficial; I sort of doubt that you are familiar with either of them except perhaps as they are similar to Genesis or to (perhaps) the epic of Gilgamesh (not sure if you have actually read the epic of Gilgamesh or if you are just familiar with it having similarities to Genesis). Sure you can disagree with me but it is impossible to say I am not following the facts or that I am adjusting the facts when you don’t even know what it is you are talking about.

          “I don’t care what Gal. says, thanks; I care what Genesis says. The Pentateuch isn’t the “gospel of Jesus Christ.””

          Interestingly enough Genesis doesn’t contain the Law of Moses as it all happens hundreds to thousands of years before Moses. Adam, Noah, and the other Patriarchs couldn’t have had the Law because the Law had not been given yet. Therefore the rest of the Pentateuch is irrelevant when discussing what it was that the early Patriarchs believed or knew.

          “Most Christians try to spin the two different versions of the 10 Commandments as the same text, but you’re quite right that Ex. 20 is very different from Ex. 34.”

          I don’t think you understood what I was talking about, probably because you aren’t very familiar with the account in Exodus. The commands in Ex. 20-23 were given with the people at the edge of the mount, the could near the edge of the mount and Moses and Aaron on the mount so that the people all heard the voice of the Lord (Ex. 19). It was a covenant which the people agreed to and Moses wrote down (Ex. 24:1-8). Then Moses, Aaron, and seventy elders went up and saw God (Ex. 24:9-11). Then the Lord called up Moses to give him the first set of tables of stone and a law which the Lord had written with Aaron and Hur being left with instructing the people under the covenant and commands they had already agreed to follow (Ex. 24:12-18). Moses goes up and received the higher law with the temple ordinances (Ex. 25-31). Moses then goes down the mount with the tablets written by the finger of the Lord when the people had broken the first covenant made, brakes the tablets because the people are not worthy to receive them after having pleaded for the life of the people that they should not be destroyed (Ex. 32). Then in Ex. 33 the people again hear the Lord revise the covenant such that He, the Lord would no longer be among them because they were stiff necked and had the Tabernacle moved away from the camp instead of being in the middle of the camp. Then in Ex. 34 Moses is commanded to make new tablets, instead of the Lord making them, and on them was written a different covenant and the ten commandments, thus getting the Law rather then the Gospel.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          John:

          You realize that neither the single source hypothesis nor the multiple source hypothesis are actually testable or scientific?

          The multiple source hypothesis nicely explains some bizarre facts about the Pentateuch–primarily, why there are duplicate versions of many stories (creation, flood, 10 Commandments, Goliath, and so on).

          not sure if you have actually read the epic of Gilgamesh or if you are just familiar with it having similarities to Genesis

          Yes, there are similarities, but I don’t know why you’re bringing this up. Maybe I’m confused about what we’re talking about. I’m talking about the Documentary Hypothesis.

          The commands in Ex. 20-23 were given with the people at the edge of the mount

          Ex. 20 has the first set of 10 Commandments; Ex. 34 has version 2, after Moses smashed the first set.

          Then in Ex. 34 Moses is commanded to make new tablets, instead of the Lord making them, and on them was written a different covenant and the ten commandments

          Yes, it’s different. Makes you wonder why people don’t get the text of the 10 Commandments correctly.

          probably because you aren’t very familiar with the account in Exodus

          I don’t think that was a problem this time, but thanks for your concern.

      • smrnda

        I’m contrasting something like scientific knowledge, which can be independently discovered, tested, and developed in different places with knowledge that is time and place specific.

        There’s nothing you said about similarities in myths that I haven’t heard before, and I didn’t think it was persuasive then and don’t now. There were sons of Zeus who were born through bizarre and non-sexual means (kind of like the virgin birth) but to me, that’s just a way you get a hero instead of a god, since heroes make better protagonists, and you have to cook up some way to get a half-human half-god. There’s similarities between Jesus and Prometheus Bound. It’s true that sacrifices to gods were made, but to me, they seem more different than similar. Blood sacrifice seems to me to be something obvious people would come up with – after all, the gods exist in a space beyond life and death so death seems a fitting sacrifice. Just to me, the naturalistic explanations appear adequate, because it also seems to explain why we’ve had a pretty big slowdown in new revealed religions as technology and science becomes more advanced.

        Perhaps because I’ve read such a vast amount of literature and seen many films I realize that getting a similar story from two people or places isn’t such a remarkable feat – certain elements of narratives just seem to emerge the way that at times, and that people are always telling stories and borrowing left and right, consciously or unconsciously.

        • JohnH

          Have you ever heard of moving the goalposts? Just saying.

  • JohnH

    What about faiths (like mine) where the vast majority of members are converts from other faiths and where the vast majority of children do not grow up surrounded by others in their peer group that believe anything similar to them? What of converts more generally? Are those all just “cultural” even though they didn’t grow up in such a culture?

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Yes, interesting. I’m simply pointing out the correlation; I’m not saying that no one converts or that everyone is the religion of their environment when they were 5 years old (say).

  • Jason

    If exposure to a religion in one’s family or culture could prove why people convert, then there would be no way to explain how a new religion actually gets started and eventually becomes a majority within a population. The sociologist Rodney Stark (mentioned by someone else above) argued that family relationships and social networks are the best determiners of choosing a religion. He used this theory to explain how Christianity could go from being a tiny local religion in 30 CE to being empire wide and taking over the Roman empire by ca. 300 CE. Stark’s argument is compelling in many ways, and statistically, his numbers add up in terms of the rates of conversion he proposes, but his theory can’t account for why someone would ever be the first or second of their friends or family to convert (an inevitable event for a religion to get started). A certain number of people have to convert before it becomes dominant. Clearly the factors weighing in on conversion are complex and there is no reason to reduce it to cultural exposure or not.

  • Rauni

    I am so grateful that my parents were atheists. When the local church canvassed our home to entice my parents to allow me and my sisters to attend Sunday school, my father said that he didn’t believe in brainwashing children. He said that when they grow up, they can do their own reading and research and make their own decisions. So when I grew up, I was really curious about all these people who believed in the bible and Jesus, etc., so began a personal search. I wanted to know what all the fuss was about. For several years, every Sunday, I attended a different church and listened carefully what they had to say. I read books and the bible too. I still didn’t get it. I kept thinking that they know something I don’t. The more I read, the less I understood why people believed. I didn’t find any logic. I was looking for something, or someone to show me some evidence and proof of all these fantastic stories from the bible, the Joseph Smith Story, Muhammed, etc. The old testament horrified me. The new testament confused me. I kept asking religious friends how/why do they believe. “The bible/Koran, etc. says so.” was the usual answer. I really, really wanted to know why their belief was unwavering. I got no answers. I began to realize that I knew more about different religions than most of my religious friends. A nun acquaintance of mine said that its just a matter of faith, not a matter of knowledge. So if you don’t get brainwashed as a child, you can’t just switch the faith button on, even after researching the subject for years, at least that is my experience. I still read and try to figure it out but the older I get, the stupider it all sounds. Now I’m reading Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens and feel much better. But I’m forever grateful to my parents (who had about 7 years of education between them – but talk about common sense!) I watch people I know go through agony with their guilts about this and that. I see much volunteer and good works as an attempt to gain brownie points with god. In other words, some people do good with selfish ulterior motives to avoid going to hell. “You better watch out…you better not cry.. you better not pout, I’m telling you why…Santa Clause is coming to town…he sees you when you’re sleeping…he knows when you’re awake…HE KNOWS IF YOU’VE BEEN BAD OR GOOD…SO BE GOOD FOR GOODNESS SAKE (teaching kids to be good for ulterior motives: presents !!

    Atheists don’t worry about that spy in the sky – they live their life with a humanitarian spirit.

    • JohnH

      “I began to realize that I knew more about different religions than most of my religious friends”
      Unless you had a lot of friends that were Mormon or Jewish then this is extremely likely.

      • Bob Seidensticker

        Why? Are Mormons and Jews poorly educated in their own religions?

        • JohnH

          No, I think you misread what I wrote; Atheist, Jews, and Mormons are all very familiar with their own faith (or lack there of) and with most other faiths.

      • Rauni

        John,

        My husband of 10 years was a Mormon.

      • Rauni

        My husband of ten years was a Mormon.

    • DrewL

      Uhoh Rauni, Bob argues that beliefs that merely reflect the environment in which they originated are automatically untrue.

      So applying Bob’s logic to your situation:
      Atheists aren’t atheists because atheism is true, but because they were born into a atheist environment. Atheism is a cultural trait, not a reflection of the truth.

      Hate to break it to you, but you’re just a product of your environment, and thereby wrong. Blame your atheist parents.

      • Bob Seidensticker

        Atheists aren’t atheists because atheism is true, but because they were born into a atheist environment. Atheism is a cultural trait, not a reflection of the truth.

        Been there, explained away that.

        • DrewL

          Oh yes, you must be referring to this:

          Atheism attempts to find things by reason. All the others use faith. That’s why your attempt to tar atheists with the religious brush fails.

          New atheism continues to be the last pocket of believers in unbiased, neutral human reasoning; it really is a form of anti-intellectualism that you deny entire subfields of psychology, economics, sociology, and even evolutionary theory in order to maintain this belief. (I know Bob doesn’t “have time” for reading recommendations, but if anyone else would like to engage any one of these fields and their criticism of naive reasoning, I’d be happy to provide reading recommendations.)

          It makes it more entertaining that you’re essentially making an ad hoc judgment that all who believe like you are practicing this pure form of untainted reasoning, and the six billion people in the world who profess a religion suffer from a bad case of irrationality and inferior mental faculties. What poor cultural dupes they are! If only you could go out to all the world and teach them the good news of reason.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          If only you could respond to what I’m actually talking about. Who knows–you might actually point out errors or teach me something. We’ll probably never find out. Pity.

        • DrewL

          I pulled a direct quote from you and pointed out what I thought to be errors, or at least inconsistencies. Somehow that’s not responding to what you’re actually talking about and pointing out errors? Perhaps I could have done a bit better if you had done better than the “Been there, explained that away” response earlier which left me on my own to figure out what you were referring to.

          I’m desperately trying to figure out what you’re talking about, but so far I’ve gotten an “explained that away” and a “who’s arguing that?” and a “my argument is already stated” defense (three separate comments) rather than substantive clarifications or responses.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Drew:

          Your goal isn’t to learn or share information. I think I’ll focus my efforts on the questions and comments that are of that sort.

        • DrewL

          A fourth non-substantive response from you. Disappointing, Bob.

          Tell you what: I’ll keep posting the wikipedia articles and outside sources that provide insightful critiques and commentary on the discussion at hand, and you can keep complaining I’m not sharing information or trying to learn anything. You’re shooting for five non-substantive comments in a row right now!

        • Phil

          DrewL,

          You are a strange cat. Clearly you are very bright; indeed, in the past you’ve offered some of the most interesting criticisms of Bob’s posts.

          But more often than actually providing substantive responses, you constantly revert back to providing reading assignments (in a weirdly hostile way). Or you provide general comments along the lines of “Bob denies entire subfields of psychology, economics, sociology, and even evolutionary theory” without providing any reasons for such comments (but promise reading assignments to anyone who wants such reasons).

          I think that your need to point to others’ writings means you are 1) not comfortable enough with what you’ve read to summarize it in a meaningful way or 2) you don’t actually want Bob to respond in a meaningful way, but want others to think that you have (?!?! Not that that makes much sense) or 3) are more interested in being hostile than having a conversation. [Or...?????]

          Again, rather than engage with topics, you prefer to give reading assignments. I think that is what Bob is driving at. (Also, you are weirdly–and purposefully–obscure about what you actually believe. To what end?)

        • Bob Seidensticker

          You’re shooting for five non-substantive comments in a row right now!

          Six.

          You bring out the worst in your correspondents. You shouldn’t be surprised; this is what you ask for.

    • Jason

      Rauni,

      This is a great story, and I can see why you feel grateful to your common sense parents, but allow me to offer a counter example. My wife grew up as the daughter of fundamentalist Christian missionaries, and they worked very hard throughout her childhood to stress religion. In fact, they worked so hard that all of her memories are negative (e.g. she doesn’t feel comfort and awe like I do in an old church, she feels guilt), and she constantly rebelled against it because she thought it was so strict, irrational, and judgmental. My family was much less forceful, but I ended up buying into it for a number of years when I was younger. So it seems that the brainwashing backfired on my wife. In light of this, Rauni, I wonder why you never saw religion as some forbidden fruit (forgive the pun) that your parents just wouldn’t let you taste but that you really wanted. Were you resentful that you didn’t get to go to church camp, etc like other kids? My parents didn’t actually go to church when I was a kid, but I went voluntarily with my grandparents. If my parents had forbidden me, I expect it would have driven me deeper into faith. In light of all this, is it possible that your experience is more like the young Christian who just accepts their parents religion? One might say that your parents sowed the seed of doubt so deep that nothing could change it (just as Bob says that children of Christian parents have a more difficult time deconverting). The problem of course is that there is no way to know what a person would have done with different parents. My take is that the best thing is not to force or forbid children either way. Let them explore and teach them how to question things.

      I wonder if this discussion about what makes people convert or leave the church would be more productive if we considered more specifically the way different children are exposed to their parents religion…

    • arkenaten

      Super comment.
      This is the way to bring kids up. And the sooner more people act like this the sooner religion will fade away – as it should.
      I came to a similar realisaion after writing a piece on Moses. Or rather tried to. There is simply nothing outside the bible that can clarify anything.
      And I came to the conclusion that if an Old testament character like Moses is nothing but make believe then the rest of the bible is too.

      • arkenaten

        Sorry I should have addressed the comment to Rauni.

  • Rauni

    In addition to my husband being a Mormon (I listened to all their sermons and stories and watched my husband get baptized) I lived with a Jewish family for about 7 months and while there, read some of their religious books, and watched their rites and rituals and asked a lot of questions.

    My atheist upbringing didn’t prevent me from searching and studying religion after I grew up. Can’t say the same for most religious people I know – that they would go re-searching and studying all the myths and legends they have grown up with.

    • JohnH

      I was just pointing out that according to studies with the exception of Jews and Mormons that an atheist is likely to know as much as or more then any believer they run into about other religions and quite potentially more then what many believers would know about their own religion. For the most part most religious people don’t know what it is they believe, that is they say they are religion X but have very little idea what it is that sets apart religion X from Y or even what it is that one is supposed to believe in order to be religion X.

      • Rauni

        “…according to Robert Hinde in his thoughtful book “Why Gods Persist,” a Gallup poll in the United States of America found the following. Three-quarters of Catholics and Protestants could not name a single Old Testament prophet. More than two-thirds didn’t know who preached the “Sermon on the Mount.” A substantial number thought that Moses was one of Jesus’s twelve apostles. That, to repeat, was in the United States, which is dramatically more religious than other parts of the developed world.” Richard Dawkins.

  • Chris Buchholz

    And until the “grey” alien became popular, people in different countries also had visions of aliens that were just like them, some saw blond aliens, some black, etc. Really that is

    Amazing that you even mention Special Pleading, and then everyone responds to you with special pleading! “but I changed my mind, i’m an exception, your theory doesn’t account for people like me” amazing, I changed my mind too. I was Catholic, Evangelical, agnostic for awhile, finally atheist. People can change their minds, for a variety of reasons, sometimes because we have “the courage to challenge our convictions” and sometimes for other reasons

    Of course the problem with the “atheists are the same” is that most of us grew up in religious households, so we do NOT force our children to believe what we believe, but certainly influence them. This is greatly unlike the child of religious parents who is punished for not going to church. Atheist parents seem to want to avoid doing that all over again to their own children, and actively encourage their children to question.

    I am not sure if atheists parents who were raised by atheists are the same or different. I have not met many.

    Of course, someday, if atheism is followed by 80% of the population, then that may be a valid point and THEN you can say atheists are just like christians and raise their kids to believe what they do. But we are a long way from that day.

  • smrnda

    I wanted to note (since I don’t consider myself Jewish but people in my family do) that it’s sort of a mistake to think of Judaism the same way that one thinks of Christianity. Orthodoxy of belief is much less important, and you can’t really draw a hard line between the Jewish culture and the Jewish religion. I could say that Hinduism is somewhat similar in that it’s a religion built on cultural identification and how one practices the religion, whereas Christianity and Islam are religions that are built around articles of belief.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      I briefly touch on Judaism and what it could teach Christianity here.

  • katoikei

    Ever read the booklet of Sadhu Sundar Singh? Hindu, visions, angels and Jesus. Not the only one, Bob.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      katoikei: No, I haven’t read this.

      Clarify your point for me. Is this about someone in a Hindu environment who learned about Jesus exclusively through visions and had never heard any of the gospel story beforehand?

  • smrnda

    The problem with visions is, given that such a thing as hallucinations and delusions exist (along with other altered states of consciousness) how do we determine a genuine vision from a false one? Even if there is a real Jesus, we’d have to be able to determine if a vision of Jesus is the real deal, a hallucination or (thanks to some Christian theologians who promote the idea) some kind of demonic imposter?

    To me, this all reminds me of belief in ghosts. Tell believers in ghosts that a building is haunted, and they’ll spend a night there and will tell you about their experiences with the ghosts haunting the building. Tell anyone else, and they’ll be missing the same experience even if they report noises they can’t explain.

  • arthur1526

    Since this world is transitory, and life is short, and one’s essential duties are many, and eternal life is gained here; and since this guest-house of the world is not without an owner, indeed, has a most wise and generous director, and neither good nor bad will remain without recompense; and since according to the verse,
    On no soul does God place a burden greater than it can bear
    there is no obligation that is insupportable, and a safe way is preferable to a harmful one, and since friends and ranks last only till the door of the grave; then surely the most fortunate person is he who does not forget the hereafter for this world, nor sacrifice the hereafter for this world, nor destroy the life of the hereafter for worldly life, nor waste his life on trivial things, but considers himself to be a guest and acts in accordance with the commands of the guest-house’s Owner, then opens the door of the grave in confidence and enters upon eternal happiness.

    From Risalei Nur collection by Said Nursi.
    http://www.nur.gen.tr/en.html#leftmenu=Risale&maincontent=Risale&islem=read&KitapId=499&BolumId=8777&KitapAd=Letters+(+revised+)&Page=91

    • Jason

      arthur1526,

      How could this blurb convince anyone to have faith in God except one who already believes? If I read a touching sermon on the Bhagavad Gita to you, will you become a Hindu? Actually, I could read a sermon to you about evolution and the lack of evidence for life after death and it would include emotional appeal AND objective evidence. Doesn’t that sound like a better option?

  • Moishe

    Just because you were born in a bagel shop doesn’t mean you are a bagel!

    • Bob Seidensticker

      But that you were born into an environment of religion X increases the likelihood that you will grow up to be a member of religion X.

  • http://thoughtfulatheist.blogspot.com/ Jake

    THIS.

    You seem to be getting a lot of pushback from religious believers that the existence of other equally-prevalent, equally-historically-supported, equally-intensely-believed religions is not in fact a problem for them. I don’t see how that’s possible- this was one of the first facts about reality that made me question the religious beliefs I was brought up in.

    I don’t think this angle gets nearly enough play in religious debates- the onus is on the believer, not just to differentiate himself from atheism (which I think should be the null hypothesis, though many religious people seem to disagree), but also to differentiate himself from every other religious believer. The Catholic needs to tell us why his evidence is better than the Muslim’s, the Hindu why his evidence is better than the Jew’s. I’ve never heard anyone do it without resorting to special pleading (with the possible exception of Buddhism, which is pretty fundamentally different from the rest of them)

  • Matt Thornton

    Along similar lines, I always wonder about the ‘chosen-ness’ common to so many faith traditions.

    If I believe that I (or my family, or tribe, or nation, or whatever) is somehow ‘chosen’, then I have at least implicitly assumed that other individuals/tribes/nations are *not* chosen – therefore I (and my favored cohort) are somehow special in the eyes of the divine.

    Fair enough – Not everyone is perfect. But …

    It’s also true that most people share belief traditions with the people around them in their most formative periods (not always true, but often enough to require consideration). This isn’t really shocking – what I know about how to tie knots, cut down a tree and ice a cake are also products of the collective wisdom of the people around me and different from the collective wisdom on those topics in many other places. The surprising thing would be if religious belief functioned differently …

    And that leads me to my question:

    If the idea of a ‘chosen’ people is so common – as saved, as righteous, as emissaries, as teachers, as examples – why is it never another group that’s chosen? If there is, indeed, ONE truth, ONE light, ONE way as so many have it, why are religions so universal in the assertion that they are THE way, rather than A way?

    More generally, why does God confuse so many people by leaving them with the impression that their way is the only correct path?

    • JohnH

      “why is it never another group that’s chosen? ”
      Actually, in my faith the Jews, Polynesians, and Native Americans are definitely also chosen people, also sort of the Arabs. Then Christian “gentiles” are also chosen and there are at least four other groups whose identities and location we are not aware of (assuming they still exist) that are likewise chosen. What they are all chosen for and what they are supposed to do is different.

      Islam also has the concept of “the people of the book”, which includes Christianity, Judaism, and debatablely Zoroastrianism and Hinduism.

      “THE way, rather than A way?”
      If there is one way how do you also propose that there are multiple? If God actually did tell a people that there is only one way to God and they assert there are many ways to God then wouldn’t they be sinning?

      • smrnda

        The chosen people idea doesn’t necessarily always imply a belief that one has a way that everybody else must convert to. Jews don’t convert, and to the best of my knowledge separate ‘ethical’ from ‘religious’ in terms of human conduct. Plenty of religions don’t actively condemn outsiders.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Matt:

      Yeah, kinda makes it look like people invent God in their own image. It would indeed be a strange religion where the priest says, “God has made clear that the other guys are the chosen people and that we’re all scum destined for hell.”

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  • http://avoiceinthewilderness-mcc1789.blogspot.com/ Michael

    After looking up Sadhu Sundar Singh, it seems he was a Sikh who converted to Christianity. He was well aware of Christian beliefs before his reported visions and conversion, since like the story of Paul, he persecuted Christians. Who knows, that story may have inspired his conversion, or helped to. Perhaps unsurprisingly, many of his accounts have been shown to be rife with discrepancies, from the details of his life in general, his conversion, to his travels. Many accounts also omit his endorsement of the unorthodox Swedish theologian Emanuel Swedenborg, and claim to have contact with him in the spirit world.

  • jammgor

    This is just Atheist rubbish. Take (my home)Scotland for instance. It used to be the “Bible Belt” of the UK. The Scots learned the Classics, Greek, Hebrew by the time they were 15. They were educated, knowledgeable and Christian. They were almost all born Christian. In one post-war generation, they dumped God and Christianity. They are now mostly Atheist and Socialist, if not Communist.

  • jammgor

    On the other hand, to leave the Muslim or Hindu religions you have the certainty of murder, and disowning. Even our Jewish friends will disown a convert to Christianity. A convert from Communism in China or the old Soviet Russia would face death, beatings and imprisonment. “Religion, the opiate of the masses”.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ BobSeidensticker

      jammmm: What’s your point? That it’s not nice to not be nice? I agree.
      Yes, Marx did call religion the opium of the masses, but you do understand that in context, right? (It doesn’t mean what most people think it means.)

  • jammgor

    If you decide not to follow your parents in Christianity you are likely to be congratulated. Your Professor will cheer, you have all the access to sluts, life gets easier rejecting Christ. All those born to Christians in the UK have rejected God with no apparent consequences (at least in this world). Your thesis is rubbish!.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ BobSeidensticker

      jam:

      You’re saying that atheists needn’t have morals and that they don’t have obligations to other people? Get back to me after you’ve actually thought about it for a bit.

      Your thesis is rubbish!

      Yeah, see at this blog, we prefer comments that are substantive. Insults or empty claims like this don’t help.

      Have I made a mistake? If so, point it out, clearly and with evidence.

  • jana

    I come from the Czech Republic. I was born into a 100% atheist, Communist family and I believed in atheism until I was 17. Then I became a Christian, because the Bible made sense to me and because God “showed” himself to me in many ways… (In the church I go to, this is the story of most people. And many of us suffered serious consequences for leaving the atheist belief – being disowned by parents, scorned by the society etc.) I do not consider myself anything better than others. Being “chosen” is a reason for humility and gratefulness, not pride.

  • thecommentator

    Unbelievers are Products of their Environment

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      I take it that you reject the “X is a product of its environment” argument.

      Given that, what explains the fact that there are 9 countries that are at least 99% Muslim? Is it because Islam is true?

  • greggraham

    This argument doesn’t say much. People are likely to believe whatever they are raised with and taught, including whatever view of science. Does that have anything to do with science being true in general, or the validity of various scientific theories? Not too many people understand and “believe in” quantum mechanics; does that mean it’s not true?

    Regarding visions: if God exists and speaks to people, he is going to speak to them in the language that they understand, which includes dominant religious ideas in their culture. The Catholic Church teaches that all religions have varying levels of truth to them. We believe that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth, but there is still much truth in other religions. People will not be judged based on what religion they are born into, but whether they followed the goodness and truth they did receive from their religion, culture, and experience.

    Finally, there are plenty of cases of non-Christians seeing visions of the Virgin Mary, although they may not know who she is at first.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      We believe that the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of truth, but there is still much truth in other religions.

      So the Pope is cool with Hindus being Hindus? That’ll get them to heaven just fine?

      Finally, there are plenty of cases of non-Christians seeing visions of the Virgin Mary, although they may not know who she is at first.

      Sure, but how many are well substantiated? How many are universally accepted (like a science experiment, say)?

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