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Attack of the Angry Atheists!

Some years ago, I attended a lecture by conservative commentator Dinesh D’Souza. He began by asking why atheists care about religion. No one goes around complaining about those who believe in unicorns or mermaids, he said, so why should an atheist complain about theists? Theists and atheists should be allowed their separate viewpoints so that everyone’s happy.

The proper place for religion in society

Atheists are annoyed, and yet they have no reason to be, right?

Wrong. But before I get into that, let me briefly summarize the religious aspects of American society that I’m happy with. It’s okay to hand out leaflets in public places (not government buildings or schools—I’m referring to parks or sidewalks) or proselytize from a soapbox. Free speech is great. We all have to put up with hearing stuff we don’t want to, but the good (each of us getting the same rights) outweighs the bad. Churches are fine. I have no problem with someone saying “Merry Christmas” or religious displays on private property. These are all guaranteed by the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

The problem

But I do draw a line, so let me summarize some of the things that concern me. I don’t like the tax support for churches ($71 billion in lost taxes each year in the U.S. because church donations are tax deductible). That’s tax money that the rest of us have to make up. I don’t like that all nonprofits’ financial records are available for public scrutiny except those of churches and ministries.

I don’t like “In God We Trust” as my country’s new motto (that change was made about 50 years ago) or on my money. I don’t like “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance (also added about 50 years ago). I don’t like the idea of the Ten Commandments displayed on government property, and I don’t like prayers opening government events like city council meetings.

I don’t like that “I’m more religious than you are” seems to be an important claim to make in politics. In 2002, the Senate passed a resolution in favor of “under God” in the Pledge when that phrase was under attack in the court system. The senators then made a pompous photo op on the Capital steps to demonstrate the God-pleasing (or voter-pleasing?) manner with which they could say the Pledge with “under God.” Even Democrats need to make public pilgrimages to churches to prove their godly credentials.

I don’t like revisionist historians claiming that this country was founded as a Christian nation (an empty argument given the clearly secular nature of the Constitution).

I don’t like religion clouding policy decisions. President Bush reportedly said in 2003, “I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq … And I did.”

Why is it that if Bush had said, “Poseidon told me to end the tyranny in Iraq,” he would be laughed at, but when he refers to God, it’s okay? I know the answer, of course—it’s because most of the people he’s talking to are comfortable with the idea of God—but is reason a majority-rules kind of thing?

Political lobbyists of any kind can be a problem, of course, but I don’t like the special influence of religious leaders (James Dobson, Pat Robertson, etc.).

I don’t like that policy questions like abortion, gay marriage, and stem cell research are partly driven by religious concerns. I don’t like religion in the form of Intelligent Design masquerading as science in the science classroom. Despite the Dover decision, ID will doubtless reappear, like a hydra.

I don’t like that children are indoctrinated into religion when they’re young and defenseless. I’d like to see religion treated as an adult issue, like cigarettes, sex, or alcohol—something that you can get involved with if you choose, but only after you’re mature enough to weigh the issue properly. Adults are very good at justifying beliefs they arrived at through poor reasoning—that’s why adults from a myriad of religions can each argue with a straight face that theirs is the one true religion. And, of course, this explains why religion must maintain access to children’s minds: their market share would plummet without it.

I don’t like people using religion as a proxy for moral behavior. For example, you’ve probably heard about the survey that ranks atheists as the least trustworthy minority in America.

For more reasons why atheists have a right to be angry, see Greta Christina’s list.

D’Souza is right about one thing—no one complains about belief in unicorns or mermaids. That’s because those beliefs don’t cause harm in society. Contrast that with Christianity.

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force
for atheism ever conceived.
— Isaac Asimov

Photo credit: Dan Santat

About Bob Seidensticker
  • http://OneFamilyManyFaiths.blogspot.com Y

    I do believe in following the general path of Jesus, and still I say Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! Bravissimo!

    • Bob Jase

      Careful, you’re likely to step in the bullshit that path has accumulated.

  • Greg G.

    “The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.”
    ― Sam Harris, Letter to a Christian Nation

  • smrnda

    I run across a handful of people who believe in ghosts, tarot cards and other sorts of irrationality. As silly as I think these things are, they seem to have negligible effects on our society. I’m not debunking the local haunted house or whatnot because the belief that an old house on top of a hill is inhabited by a ghost isn’t about to have an influence on public policy.

    Other bad beliefs, regrettably, have too much influence not just because they’re more popular perhaps, but because they lead people to do things that are incredibly harmful, but also since they try to force these beliefs on everybody else because winning converts – or obtaining the submission of unbelievers – is part of the program.

    D’Souza is deliberately promoting a false equivalence – that all false beliefs have produce equal negative consequences, which is clearly not true. So far, no president has started a war because of astrology, but belief in the Christian god seems to have influenced a large and costly war. Both I regard as equally silly, but only one has done as much damage.

    If belief in tarot cards was causing politicians to make horrible decisions and implement bad policy then I’d be more vocal about tarot cards, but so far, I don’t think they pose much of a threat.

  • BabyRaptor

    This entire answer can be summed up very easily: Christians won’t stop trying to force their religion on everyone else.

    And they hate it when we say that. they try and claim that they’re just “showing their faith,” or “doing their duty by ‘supporting Godly principles.’” What they ignore is that they’re NOT just affecting themselves. When you base a law on those beliefs, you’re not just “living your personal beliefs.” You’re also robbing everyone else of their rights to live by *their* personal beliefs.

    And that, in a nutshell, is the issue. If these people would just live and let live, there wouldn’t be any issue. But they can’t.

  • Rain

    Dinesh forgets that Jesus told everyone to convert everybody. Jesus didn’t really tell everyone to convert everybody–he only told a few people–but “a few people” gets interpreted as “everyone” when it is convenient to interpret it that way. A few people drinking wine and eating bread gets interpreted as everybody drinking wine and eating bread. A few people being told to pray in the closet gets interpreted as a few being told to pray in the closet. A few people being told give up their riches gets interpreted as… yeah you get the picture.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Rain:

      Yes, it is a little arrogant of Christians to interpret Jesus’s command to “preach to all nations,” addressed to the disciples as applying to them. Since Judaism was not a missionary religion and since Jesus was a Jew, perhaps he wouldn’t like the missionary attitude present today.

      • Rain

        Christianity wouldn’t have flourished so well without their very flexible interpretations of their scriptures. They would have gone around turning the other cheek and giving up their belongings and not worrying about the morrow and whatnot! Jesus was definitely not a good planner-aheader.

  • just.chris

    I have found atheist to be much more trustworthy than Christians, in general. I can say that I trust all my proclaimed atheist friends, except one. I trust most of my Christian friends, too, but most of the dishonest experiences of my life were at the hands of individuals who would call themselves pious.

    Politically, I would be much more inclined to trust a professed atheist because you know she would be speaking the truth at least about her religion. I am skeptical of most politician’s “faith” and think their displays are more succumbing to the necessity for political survival. A very large portion of the devout Christians I know, and are related to, would never vote for an atheist, even if they were in complete agreement on all other issues. Atheist might be inclined to vote for a fellow atheist but I believe virtually all the other issues would weigh more heavily.

    One reason I believe atheist are, in general, more trustworthy is due to the fact an atheist has to forgive himself for their actions, Christian’s can do whatever they want as long as they believe. God is responsible for the forgiveness of the individual.

    I know of no Christian teaching where it says we can forgive ourselves. Sure, as Matthew and Luke spelled out in the Lord’s Prayer, “And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,” we are asking God to forgive us, that’s His job.

    Atheist don’t have that luxury. Nobody to love us no matter what we do.

    We have to live with ourselves.

    • just.chris

      I should add, I am an atheist and I have done dishonest/dishonorable things in my life and have lots of trouble forgiving myself of them.

      It would be comforting to be so sure of someone. I wish I could know without question, I could trust someone completely to love me know matter what. Even if it were only me.

      Like B.B. King says, “Nobody loves me like my mother, and she could be lying too.”

      • Greg G.

        Like B.B. King says, “Nobody loves me like my mother, and she could be lying too.”

        Your mother isn’t lying to you but she might be “jivin’” you.

        Got a woman with both eyes on one side of her face and her nose is upside-down.
        Said I got a woman with both eyes on one side of her face and her nose is upside-down.
        Picasso as a blues singer, from a Bizarro cartoon.

        • just.chris

          Ack!
          Good catch Mr. G.

          Do they have that track on the CD? I only ever had the vinyl recording and it was on the inside loop at the end and repeated over and over until the needle was lifted.

          But we should probably be sticking to Christian inspired music on Stick’s blog. I like:

          “Everybody” by John Prine.
          “Personal Jesus” by Martin Gore of Depeche Mode (I like Depeche’s original and Johnny Cash’s cover equally, the song has been covered by lots of performers – a very bizarre cover by Marlyn Manson although disturbing (to me) the baby symbolism is interesting to contemplate).
          “Levon” by Bernie Taupin & Elton John (arguably about “the” Jesus).

          But my all time favorite Jesus song is ZZ Top’s “Jesus Just Left Chicago” from “Tres Hombres.”

  • MNb

    “It’s okay to hand out leaflets in public places (not government buildings or schools)”
    For me it’s okay to do so at my school as well – provided that I as an atheist have the same right. Fortunately I live in a country where I do.
    It’s the ultimate test. If a christian demands to proselytize at schools ask him/her if pastafarians should be granted the same right. For instance in Austria pastafarians are allowed to make passport photo’s wearing a colander in exactly the same way muslimas are allowed to wear head scarves.

    • MNb

      So my question is: what does D’Souza write about pastafarian rights? Nothing? That tells us everything.

  • ctcss

    @just.chris

    “I should add, I am an atheist and I have done dishonest/dishonorable things in my life and have lots of trouble forgiving myself of them.

    It would be comforting to be so sure of someone. I wish I could know without question, I could trust someone completely to love me know matter what. Even if it were only me.”

    Thanks for this honest sentiment. I think everyone has done less than admirable things that they are ashamed of and wish they hadn’t. As a Christian, I am certainly not happy with all of the things I have done (and am still doing!) in my life. But the concept of God as Love really helps me to continue to attempt to go forward. Not because that concept lets me off the hook and leaves me with nothing left to do to correct those wrong things. It’s because I like the concept that healing of all sorts of human problems with God’s help, no matter how bad they seem to be, is possible. I think that there is a reason that the parable of the prodigal son finds such resonance with people in general. The idea that one could knowingly screw up so badly, and find one’s self on the very bottom, seemingly self-disgraced beyond all hope, and yet still realize that the bottom is not where one belongs even if it seems like it was humanly deserved, is very comforting. And the further idea that there is a constancy of love for everyone, no matter how far off the path they have wandered, is wonderful IMO. The idea that one’s redemption is desired by God, rather than God seeking revenge or retribution or recrimination against one, really does it for me.

    I hope your current non-believing path helps you to get past your past. Everyone deserves healing. Everyone deserves good.

    • just.chris

      ctcss,
      That is a very kind sentiment.
      It is one thing I envy in believer’s, the certainty of being loved.
      It is a reason I have at times in my past been disinclined to argue my opinions to believing friends and family. I do not wish to say anything that might take that very precious gift away from them.
      However, I often wish that they would show more tolerance for those who hold beliefs different from their own.
      I almost joined InterFaith as an atheist. I may not believe what you believe but I feel very strongly each of us has a right to believe in what we do. And that if you take away the power/control hierarchy and radical interpretations, the intention of religion(s) is to be kind to one another.

      • ctcss

        just.chris,

        It’s interesting how opening up to express one’s genuine and heartfelt thoughts can allow people to see each other in a better, truer, light. I am so used to snark on these forums that it is very refreshing to see something other than snark, cynicism, and bombast. You allowed me in, so to speak, and I, who was thinking of saying something to Bob (hopefully non-snarky), decided to say something to you instead.

        You have a very nice, loving thought. I think you might really want to reconsider your decision not to join InterFaith. I don’t have any personal knowledge about them as an organization, but if you joined them openly, honestly, patiently, and lovingly as an atheist, I think you would be giving them a gift that would go far beyond your services as a volunteer. Humanity really needs to mature past the fight-or-flight phase of existence. If Christians have (largely) learned not to engage in bloody war with different-believing Christians and love them instead, and have also learned to (largely) offer respect to other faiths and learn to love them instead, they can certainly offer love to a group who, while not believing in God, certainly believe in looking out for, and caring about, their neighbors who do believe.

        What I have never understood (and I am sorry to hear that it happens at all) is that Christians of any stripe somehow forget the instruction of Jesus to love even those whom they may regard (and who may regard them in turn) as enemies. And the reason for that instruction is that Christians are suppose to work towards the goal of loving as God loves, that is, unconditionally. God, as Jesus noted, loves us even if we are hateful, evil, unjust, unloving, or ungrateful. If God loves us (and others) in our most unlovable and unworthy moments, why should Christians ever consciously choose to fail in their effort to do likewise? It would very much be working against the goal we supposedly signed up for.

        So, yes, you are correct that religions, in general, do teach us to be kind to one another. I only hope that we believers, in our less than perfect practice of our faiths, do not rob you of your very precious gift of caring about others, even offering it to those who have apparently not returned the favor to you. (Hey, are you sure you haven’t accidentally become a Christian without intending to? ;) )

        And even though it may not come across as comforting from a Christian, in my understanding of things, you are very much loved unconditionally, no matter what hat you find yourself wearing.

        • Kodie

          To many Christians, I think “love” means doing whatever is necessary to save someone from hell. That is what they say when these arguments come up about homosexuality, at least primarily as of late. It’s not that they don’t “love” someone, they act like they hate them because this is how they justify god being kind of evil. They justify god being merciful but wrathful and all that, so he would send a homosexual to hell when they die, and the rule is to, tragically, forgo any sense of humanity and browbeat and harass people to change their ways, according to this “loving” god.

          I understand they also think of humans as rebels and god as a parent who is dishing out tough love. Supposedly, he is really rooting for everyone to end up in heaven, even though he never shows up and proves that he exists. We’re all living in an epic fairy tale where death is not even the end, and using the threat of hell to bend people to god’s straight path of salvation through Jesus. If you heard that for the first time today, wouldn’t that sound ridiculous? That’s how it sounds to an atheist. Anyway, these bigots like to think they love gay people, just trying to get them to see they have to change or else. Why doesn’t god come over and tell them himself, if he exists? That’s what I say. It’s not for anyone to judge, they live in fear and I know they are limited in social skills. All they know how to do is try and force something, and I also know why they do it, it’s not out of love for fellow human beings escaping hell. It’s because someone is telling them, preaching to them, that it’s all up to them! They are being preached to believe that everyone’s salvation in their proximity is up to them, or they themselves will be judged negatively and end up in hell. Not caring about the homosexual and just letting him or her be, letting this issue be between the homosexual and god, if he exists, is, for the Christian, like failing to love them into heaven by hating them on earth.

          Of course, I think this is warped. The problem with Christians is, you know, I bet the church would make a lot of money and just tell people that everything’s ok. They get sermons how to improve their proselytizing. They get this fear of hell in them, then they get the message that some 90% of people they know outside of church are headed for hell, and it makes them panic and try to do the bigot thing and win souls. None of you has this right! I don’t care if this doesn’t describe your own church or philosophy. You come at the problem from a skewed idea, and you don’t understand why it makes no sense to the atheist. It’s not that we’re stubborn and rebellious against god! It’s because it’s jibberish.

        • just.chris

          Kodie,

          Your comment, “become a Christian without intending to” exemplifies a big part of the problem atheist have with Christians/religious persons in general, is that we can’t be “good people” just because we want to be. We have to be inspired or motivated by fear or adulation in order to be “good.”

          To get really down to it, I would not worship the Christian God even if I knew he was real.
          As far as I can tell he is an ass. Unlike the father in the prodigal son, God requires belief and worship in Him in order to “go to heaven.” And even if you live a good life and are a good person, if you do not worship Him, you go to hell. In addition, I would never respect or worship any “god” who would punish their “child” for an eternity because of finite ignorance.

          Fortunately I do not believe in my existence beyond my life time, so I can only experience my life and not an eternity in either heaven or hell. Truthfully neither place sounds very appealing.

        • ctcss

          just.chris,

          That was me, not Kodie. And I was teasing you (gently, I hope) about the kind and loving nature you were exhibiting towards your family members because those are the very qualities that Christians are supposed to embody (and sadly, often don’t) in their relationship with others. Do people need God in order to be kind towards others? Of course not. Even Jesus understood that and said as much. And one certainly doesn’t need to be motivated by fear or adulation in order to be good. People should be (and can be) good just because it is the best thing to do.

          And despite what you might think about the Christian God, I am a Christian and I was taught universal salvation. I did not grow up with the idea of eternal torment waiting for me or for anyone of any believing or non-believing stripe.. That’s why I wrote my first and my second response to you. You certainly seemed to like my first response. I was hoping the second would also be reassuring since you seemed to feel the lack of a sense of enduring love for your person.

          And you might want to reconsider your opinion of the Christian view of God since the parable of the prodigal son is about God’s nature, not about a human father and his relationship with his two human sons. You may want to ask yourself why Jesus would teach such a parable that brings out the idea of God’s everlasting love and desire for people’s redemption, and then turn around and say “Just kidding! You’re all going to hell!” (Hint, he wouldn’t, at least not as I understand Jesus’ teachings.) Somehow it seems that you were exposed to the idea that God hates his children and wants to torment and destroy them. I find that odd since I was raised with the completely opposite view of God.

          I repeat what I said earlier, “Everyone deserves healing. Everyone deserves good.” and add to it “And no one deserves torment or punishment. God loves every one of His children without exception.”

          And that, IMO, includes you despite any of your beliefs or non-beliefs about God.

          So, still friends?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          ctcss:

          You may want to ask yourself why Jesus would teach such a parable that brings out the idea of God’s everlasting love and desire for people’s redemption, and then turn around and say “Just kidding! You’re all going to hell!” (Hint, he wouldn’t, at least not as I understand Jesus’ teachings.)

          What he actually says is: “Just kidding! Most of you are going to hell!”

          Somehow it seems that you were exposed to the idea that God hates his children and wants to torment and destroy them.

          Well, yeah. He deliberately creates billions of people knowing that most will rot in hell for eternity? What kind of sick puppy would do that?

          I find that odd since I was raised with the completely opposite view of God.

          Is that view of God unambiguously the god of the Bible?

        • Richard S. Russell

          The official party line is that Christians are kind and loving because they’re Christian.

          In observable reality, my experience is that most Christians are indeed kind and loving, but that’s despite being Christian.

          As an immensely social species, we human beings are basically inclined to be kind and loving (or at least neutral and not overtly hostile) to almost everybody almost all the time. Programmed by a million years of evolution to be friendly only to the 20-80 members of our immediate tribe — each of whom we know by face and voice and have known since birth — and that our greatest danger comes from the tribe that’s almost exactly like us but lives over in the next valley, competing for our resource niche, we nonetheless are able to aggregate in gigaplexes like Shanghai, Cairo, Mumbai, Tokyo, Mexico City, London, Rio, Lagos, Bangalore, and New York and actually get along pretty damn well for the most part.

          Notice that Christianity plays almost no role in that communitarian spirit in at least half the cities I listed. The tendency toward cooperation (or at least peaceful coexistence) is worldwide, but Christianity covers only 1/3 of the planet, so clearly it can’t account for the pacific attitudes of the other 2/3.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      ctcss:

      It’s because I like the concept that healing of all sorts of human problems with God’s help, no matter how bad they seem to be, is possible.

      Or, you could just repair your relationship with someone else without God’s help. Seems a simpler way to look at things to me.

      I think that there is a reason that the parable of the prodigal son finds such resonance with people in general.

      It is a cool story. Too bad God doesn’t work that way.

      the bottom is not where one belongs even if it seems like it was humanly deserved

      The story has a human making the noble gesture. No need for a god.

      I hope your current non-believing path helps you to get past your past.

      There’s a nice sentiment in there, but what’s wrong with my past that I need to get past?

  • Rick

    Bob–reference:

    I don’t like that children are indoctrinated into religion when they’re young and defenseless. I’d like to see religion treated as an adult issue, like cigarettes, sex, or alcohol—something that you can get involved with if you choose, but only after you’re mature enough to weigh the issue properly

    From this statement, I take it you would like the teaching of any religious doctrine to those under 18-21 (adult age) to be illegal? What penalties would you apply? What would this imply for parental ability to determine what is best for their own child or family?

    • Nox

      Parents having unlimited rights to decide the beliefs of their children would imply something dismal for their children’s right to decide their own beliefs.

      • Rick

        Nox,

        There is a huge difference between having rights todecide what their children’s beliefs would be and parent’s authority to teach ethics, morality and where the foundations for those beliefs comes from. What the children actually believe is up to them and can’t be controlled by anyone but the individual himself.

        Did I misunderstand you?

        Rick

      • kcthomas

        According to some atheists ,parents have no right to tell the children about ‘right” and “wrong” as the parents’ conception of what is right and what is wrong is not acceptable to atheists. Sincerely speaking such arguments will not carry us anywhere. When the whole philosophy is different for atheists and theists, what is the remedy ? Violence, hatred ? No civilized person will agree. So let us have tolerance, love, compassion and understanding OTHERS.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Rick:

      I take it you would like the teaching of any religious doctrine to those under 18-21 (adult age) to be illegal?

      No.

      • Rick

        So can you explain what the logical extension of your statement…

        I’d like to see religion treated as an adult issue, like cigarettes, sex, or alcohol—something that you can get involved with if you choose, but only after you’re mature enough to weigh the issue properly.

        …might be?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Rick:

          So we’re all on the same page and now you’re just quibbling with word choice and sentence structure? Seems like an odd exercise, but let me have a go.

          So can you explain what the logical extension of your statement…

          I don’t see us as all robots with the State as the only actor. We are ourselves actors. I imagine a world in which we have autonomy, that there’s more in play here than just the guardrail of what is illegal.

        • Rick

          Bob,

          So we’re all on the same page and now you’re just quibbling with word choice and sentence structure? Seems like an odd exercise…

          This from the blogger who lives to quibble about word choice and sentence structure? Really?? The same one who corrected be for using the term “hard” when he thought it should have been “uncomfortable?” But no, this isn’t about sentence structure, Bob.

          You made a statement, which I will quote again, saying:

          I’d like to see religion treated as an adult issue, like cigarettes, sex, or alcohol—something that you can get involved with if you choose, but only after you’re mature enough to weigh the issue properly.

          Providing the items you specified to minors has criminal fines, penalties, etc. What I asked, since you want to treat religion treated “as an adult issue, like…” the things you specify, do you also want criminal penalties attached to adults teaching religious principles to children. It is a simple question. You answered, simply, “No.”

          So I asked what you actually meant by the statement—what was the logical outworking you intended. Your reply about robots, the state not being the only actor and guardrails didn’t really address the question. Since you likened religion to adult activities for which there is a mandated penalty, what did you have in mind to be the guardrail for keeping me from teaching my kids what the Bible contains?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Rick:

          What I asked, since you want to treat religion treated “as an adult issue, like…” the things you specify, do you also want criminal penalties attached to adults teaching religious principles to children. It is a simple question. You answered, simply, “No.”

          So now we’re on the same page. Great.

  • Kodie

    Another question would be to ask theists why they mind atheists so much. I know – we try to take away what they think is their freedom but is actually their privilege. If they believe in god, then what does “No-God” have to do with them? Same thing it is with us; it’s the people.

    I mean, if they put it the other way around, they can distinctly see where the problem is. They retreat into their havens of religious freedom and distort our complaints as being against GOD while they maintain innocence with these remarks and avoidance of blame, but it’s about them and what they do. I don’t expect them to understand. One of the glaring faults of most theists I encounter, the ones who post on atheist blogs, is a profound dissonance between what they do and what I mind, and why I might mind what they do. I count this dissonance among evidence against god. You expect me to trust you, to rely on your morals, you expect me to put you in office and run things, when you can’t even understand the situation and play dumb? No. There is no god until you put proof in front of my face. Until then, I think you have become too comfortable assuming this bullshit passes for truth, but you’re insane.

  • Torcan

    As a response to a comment you made, Jesus was not a Jew, he was born in Judea so he was a Judean by birth. He does or did not practice Judaism. Judaism grew out of the teachings and traditions of the Pharisees and scribes. Also as I am sure you are aware, but want to divert peoples attention away with your blog, the biggest threat to world peace are the Zionist Talmud following Jews. So if you have a problem with Religion how about starting with the most evil, hate filled religion there is, that being Talmud following Judaism.

    • trj

      If only everybody were as loving, insightful and totally not racist as you, I’m sure the world would be a much better and more peaceful place.

      • Torcan

        What is racist about my comment? If anything you are the one making this a race issue. It’s easy for people to quickly bring up racism or anti-Semitism to try and silence any dissent. The people I am talking about are followers of a Talmudic world view, which grew out of the corrupt teachings of the Pharisees, exactly the people who Jesus opposed.

        • trj

          If you don’t want to sound racist then maybe you shouldn’t make sweeping generalizations about a group of people, calling them evil, hate-filled, and the biggest threat to world peace.

          Additionally, your post smacks of conspiracy theory, directly accusing Bob of diverting people’s attention away from the great Zionist threat. I mean, WTF?

          You even condemn Talmudic Jews (whatever that is, but it would seem to include almost all religious Jews) as heretics following “corrupt teachings”, making it clear you use your own religious leanings as a base for your bigotry. Forgive me if I’m not impressed with someone who condemns people based on his religious beliefs.

        • Torcan

          As you said I made comments about a group of people, not a race, therefore it is not racist. Judaism incorporates many people from various races, Ethiopians, Chinese and Indians. The Jews are a people not a race. My main point is that one of Judaism’s most holy books is the Talmud which is a book of double standards, one for Jews and one for Gentiles. The manner in which they are allowed to treat non Jews as defined by their religion is appalling. I am not condemning anyone and I am not using any religious leanings, However it is true that modern Judaism grew out of the teachings and traditions of the Pharisees, scribes, Sadducees and teachers of the law, the group of people Jesus Christ was in direct opposition to. Israel has been in involved in a program of sterilisation on its Ethiopian population, that is real racism. As I said it is easy to resort to name calling instead of addressing the issue raised, that a world view as supported by the Talmud is a threat to everyone.

        • trj

          Oh please, your bigotry is not technically based on genetic traits, and ergo it’s not racism? You trash-talk all people who follow a specific religion, and you’re not being racist? Fine, let’s just call it bigotry then, if that makes you happy. You are a bigot.

          I am not condemning anyone and I am not using any religious leanings, However…

          “However…”, followed by a justification of you condemning people based on your religious leanings.

          a world view as supported by the Talmud is a threat to everyone.

          Yep, totally not racist or bigoted in any way.

        • smrnda

          How many Jews do you talk to? The Talmud is a huge mess of often contradictory statements written over a long period of time by many Rabbis and scholars. In that capacity, it’s just like the “Bible” that Christians reference, except that nobody is pretending that it came down from heaven dictated by g-d.

          Does the Talmud and the Torah contain examples of institutionalized inequality between Jews and Gentiles? Yeah, they sure do. You probably won’t find any Jew who would say otherwise, and you probably won’t find any Jew (outside of maybe some fundamentalist extremists) who doesn’t feel like this is a bad thing and a sign that Jews aren’t perfect, and that their morality has evolved over time just like everyone else.

          Given the history of Jews, Jews were mostly oppressed or shoved into ghettos for most of their history, often with the blessings of the Christian church and its leaders.

          Are *some* Jews today pissing and shitting on *some* people who are not Jews now that the State of Israel exists where Jews actually have power? Yeah, I’m not going to deny it. However, using words like “Zionist Talmudist Jews” isn’t exactly the best choice of words here – why not critique the government of Israel if you want to, along with explaining the influence of the US and Christians with an ‘end times’ mentality in shaping US foreign policy in the middle east, rather than using words right out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

          And “a people not a race?” What is that supposed to mean? Race is a social construct. Jews aren’t a monolithic group despite having common ancestors, but neither is anybody else.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Torcan:

      the biggest threat to world peace are the Zionist Talmud following Jews.

      I didn’t see that one coming! What did Talmud-following Jews do to make you so annoyed?

      Maybe you should focus on those Christians who turned the noble variant of Judaism advanced by Jesus in to a completely new religion.

      So if you have a problem with Religion how about starting with the most evil, hate filled religion there is

      I live in America. The religious excesses are done in the name of Christianity, so I focus on Christianity.

      Judaism incorporates many people from various races

      Where does that whole concept of Judaism passing through the mother come from?

      one of Judaism’s most holy books is the Talmud which is a book of double standards, one for Jews and one for Gentiles.

      Are you Christian? If so, that’s your god you’re complaining about.

      the group of people Jesus Christ was in direct opposition to

      So what? Jesus was opposed by a group so therefore that group is bad? How did we conclude that Jesus is the arbiter of good and bad?

      I’m an atheist, remember?

  • ctcss

    “I don’t like that children are indoctrinated into religion when they’re young and defenseless. I’d like to see religion treated as an adult issue, like cigarettes, sex, or alcohol—something that you can get involved with if you choose, but only after you’re mature enough to weigh the issue properly.”

    Bob, how can you reconcile your hearty endorsement of the constitutional guarantee of free speech and yet desire to restrict it when it suits your preferences? I see no clause in the first amendment that says “except for children”. Furthermore, I have seen far too many statements by current non-believers who testified that they realized the falsity or non-nonsensical content of the religious instruction they were receiving when they were 5, 6, 7, etc. Since those children were obviously not “indoctrinated” despite the attempts to teach them about God, it would appear that your concern is without merit. Unless, of course, you want to somehow ensure that everyone agrees with your thoughts regarding the dangerous nature of their own understanding and practice of religion.

    Do you really want the state to declare “approval” or “disapproval” of ideas? And do you really want the majority of society to weigh in as well? And consider this. Everyone is familiar with children wanting to explore and experience that which is “forbidden” to them. Even if a law were passed to achieve your desire and parents were told that they could not teach their religion to their children (and please, let’s dispense with the pejorative term “indoctrinate”), and even if the children realized that they were not allowed to partake of their parent’s study and practice of religion at home, as well as their parent’s ongoing visits to their places of worship, do you not think that curious children would want to try to explore these ideas whenever and however they could? And do you really want to interfere with the family dynamics of children learning things from their parents, either by mimicry or by direct passing along of ideas that the parents have found to be useful in life?

    Bob, you may have concerns about religion, but that just means you really are worried about what your neighbors are thinking and doing. Maybe the best solution would be to spend more time genuinely engaging with them as a neighbor and a friend, and not as someone who regards them as a mindless and uncontrollable threat to be feared.

    We really need to get past this lizard mentality of fight or flight. We’re better than this.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      ctcss:

      Bob, how can you reconcile your hearty endorsement of the constitutional guarantee of free speech and yet desire to restrict it when it suits your preferences?

      I don’t. A guy can dream, can’t he?

      I have seen far too many statements by current non-believers who testified that they realized the falsity or non-nonsensical content of the religious instruction they were receiving when they were 5, 6, 7, etc.

      Cool! Maybe we’re on the same page then. Let’s postpone religious education until someone is an adult when they have their full intellectual capabilities. If the religious teachings are true, these young adults should more clearly see them, right?

      What do you think would happen to Christianity if this happened?

      Since those children were obviously not “indoctrinated” despite the attempts to teach them about God, it would appear that your concern is without merit.

      Sounds like we’re in agreement. You say childhood religious education is a waste of time and I say it’s indoctrination. Let’s encourage Christian education to be limited to adults, when they can properly understand it.

      parents were told that they could not teach their religion to their children (and please, let’s dispense with the pejorative term “indoctrinate”)

      I imagine we agree that Islam is not true, and yet millions of children in Pakistan and Yemen and Saudi Arabia are being taught that it is.

      What term would you use for this process?

      We really need to get past this lizard mentality of fight or flight. We’re better than this.

      Works for me. In the US we have the First Amendment, which provides terrific rights for Christians that are only dreamed of in some other countries. And we still have Christian extremists who want to push the envelope–prayer in schools, Creationism in science classrooms, city council meetings that start with prayer, and on and on.

      They won’t listen to me–you tell them that we’re better than this.

    • Richard S. Russell

      “We really need to get past this lizard mentality of fight or flight. We’re better than this.”

      I once heard a talk by biologist Jack Cohen (co-author, with Ian Stewart, of the wonderful book What Does a Martian Look Like? The Science of Extra-Terrestrial Life) in which he expanded on this idea a bit. Paraphrasing: “When encountering a member of a strange species, your reaction will be 1 of what we call the 5 ‘F’s: fighting, fleeing, freezing, feeding, or romance.”

  • Aram McLean

    Having been raised in a Fundamentalistic, one man was god to the rest, type of childhood, complete with eight years of ACE ‘schooling’, I can assure you with confidence that indoctrinating children into religion before they’re old enough to know the difference between the possible and the impossible, is child abuse. It took me till my 30′s to fully undo all the damage done to my emotions and psyche from basic things like a ridiculous fear of hell, an unnatural opinion about gays, and a messed up concept about dynamics between the sexes, and on and on and on.
    Yes, I understand that the parents do the damage they do out of a sense of ‘love’. (Had any other group ever perverted the definition of love more?) I also get that most of them are victims themselves from equally zealous parents, and so on back until Adam ;)
    But it is child abuse, and should be treated as such.
    For every one person like myself who manages to break free of the brainwash, they are at least ten others who do not. At the very least the children of the world deserve to be taught HOW to think, not WHAT to think.

    • ctcss

      Aram

      I appreciate where you are coming from, but what you are referring to is an abusive situation brought about by human failings, not necessarily one driven by religion and religion alone. I was not raised in the same environment as you were, which is to say, mine was religious, as was yours, but but mine was not abusive. There were no threats or coercion, no hellfire, no devil. We didn’t regard the Bible in a literalist manner, science wasn’t regarded as a scary subject, etc. My religious upbringing didn’t scare me or torment me. Contrariwise, I actually found it to be very comforting and supportive.

      Your problem was abuse, not religion. (Religion as an all-encompassing term, as opposed to a very specific instance of religious practice.) Likewise, the Penn State problem was sexual child abuse, not abuse derived from the “evil” nature of football or sports. I can understand your concern about the possibility of abuse, but my happy religious upbringing vs your unhappy religious upbringing would suggest that the problem would not be solved by eliminating religion. And it certainly wouldn’t make people like me happy to be deprived of learning and experiencing something that was highly treasured. I am not sure how one would get the state to even notice when a child-rearing situation is abusive, unless neighbors or school teachers voiced their concerns because of what they personally witnessed concerning a child’s situation.

      Child abuse exists in society, but we don’t outlaw all parenting until the child reaches majority as a result. We deal with abuses when and where they are discovered. Parenting, as a concept and a practice, is not intrinsically a crime or a dangerous activity. Likewise religion, as a concept and a practice, is not intrinsically a crime or a dangerous activity.

      IMO, it really begins to cross a line when the state decides that ideas like religion are dangerous (rather than actual behaviors like abusive relationships) and thus religion, as an idea, should be outlawed for children.

      • just.chris

        Aram,
        I agree with your post up to the last paragraph.
        The state should stay out of it completely, except to protect the rights of individuals whose ideals differ from the majority or the outspoken minority.
        There is, for instance, plenty of time before or after school to practice ones beliefs without resulting in peer pressure which is often not just unintentional.
        If the state were to force ID to be taught in schools then I also think that atheism should also be taught as a subject. You can believe in God and evolution. But you cannot believe in ID without believing in a god.
        This is not a “fine” distinction, it is cut and dry. The state should not teach religion.
        Parents can send their kids to religious based schools if they wish. I wonder if there are any atheist based schools that parents could choose to send their children to, AND would those schools receive the same tax relief that the “god” based schools enjoy. People demand vouchers when the religious school are already receiving aid.
        I suppose if it came down to it, atheist could home school their children, eh? Start teaching ID in public schools and/or demand school prayer and see how fast atheist start supporting vouchers!
        Personally, I would enjoy starting a school exclusively for atheist. Theology/mythology/philosophy would definitely be a part of the curriculum (if I had a curriculum at all, I am tend to favor self-directed educational approach.

        • ctcss

          just.chris,

          Were you addressing my response to Aram’s post, or were you addressing Aram about his post? I can’t quite tell from your response.

        • just.chris

          I meant to address ctcss not Aram, did it again sorry.

          And I would like to also to respond to ctcss and ask , “What branch of Christianity do you follow?”

          Where does it say that God forgives everybody? I am pretty sure it is absolutely contingent on whether you “believe and ask for forgiveness.” otherwise you get a “go straight to hell” card.

          I try to listen to people talking about their religions and to see the underlying good. While I respect and wish what I think you might be saying were true for all Christian, I do not believe it is held by the vast majority. And that is based only on my friends, family and what I hear celebrity Christians stating in the media. I am not sure if you actually do believe what I though you said.

          Is it true you believe that if someone is an atheist (or some heathen religion) their whole life, living however – with great goodness or great evil or any place in between, that when they die, your God will forgive them even if in during their lifetime, they never worship or acknowledge His existence? And “His” being your particular god?

          Just a question. Very interested in your response.

      • Nox

        No one has suggested making religion illegal.

        What has been suggested is that people should make a better choice.

        No one has suggested outlawing the teaching of religion to children.

        What has been suggested is that people who force their children to believe untrue things are doing a disservice to their children.

        There is a difference between saying “people who do this should be locked up” and “people should really stop doing this”.

        • Aram McLean

          exactly Nox,
          I am not suggesting making religion illegal as such. In fact, I live in Germany part time (my wife is German), and the fact that they have made everything to do with Nazism illegal is, in my opinion, a big mistake. Books like Mein Kampf are not allowed to be sold or read, for example. And what does this do but, much like drugs being illegal (also a ridiculous idea, but I digress), make young people all the more interested in reading the stupid book and shaving their heads whilst their biggest decision of the day being whether to wear black, white, or red laces as they go looking for foreigners to kick in the face.

          No, I do not suggest making religion illegal. I am not a totalitarian. I simple think that we as a ‘modern’ civilization holding unprecedented knowledge (at least since the alien astronauts built the pyramids of course ;) we need to understand that stunting children’s brains and emotions is against the common good for all.

          Yes, I know that if you’re an idiot it’s usually for a long time, but we really need to stop with this ‘I respect your right to chop off your little guys penis skin’ or ‘Of course you should have your three-year-old girl swimming in a lake wearing a full length dress’ (something I witnessed myself as a Park Ranger on Vancouver Island, and the wee thing almost drowned). We let religion off the hook for so many things which in any other context would be immediately labelled as, at the very least, crazy, and at the most, abusive behaviour that needs to be punished.

          Despite what people love to crow, there is a basic moral code that we all know in ourselves to be true (Psychopaths and sociopaths need not apply. Likely they are genetic throwbacks to a time when it was conducive to evolution to be bloody violent. The same goes for pedophiles, and hard as it is to admit, I don’t think there is any way to ‘fix’ them. But again, I digress).
          In general, there is a basic moral code. And yet we continue to allow religion to superimpose this code with their own skewed idea of right and wrong (Homosexuals are hell-bound sinners, for example). We continue to ignore the fact that religious people indoctrinate their children to wholly accept these mutilated moral codes are accurate and true.

          Yes, at times this religious brainwashing is not as obviously horrendous as what Nazism was, for example (and please don’t throw Godwin’s law at me as this ties into symbols of Nazism being illegal in Germany to this day), we still need to be aware and concerned about what is happening to our children’s minds.

          No, we shouldn’t make religion illegal (except in those obvious cases like fundamental Mormonism etc). But we do need to stop handling it with kid gloves and bowing to the indoctrinated’s cries of ‘respect’ and ‘freedom of speech’ and ‘religious persecution’.

          We know too much in this day and age to keep acting ignorant. And if we don’t stand up to help the children have as much chance at life (without ridiculous Bronze Age fears and prejudices), then who does deserve our help. Our children are the only true innocents, after all.

          This turned into a rather more general comment than simply a reply to Nox, but anyways, I hope this clears up my position somewhat.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Nox:

          What has been suggested is that people who force their children to believe untrue things are doing a disservice to their children.

          There is a difference between saying “people who do this should be locked up” and “people should really stop doing this”.

          Nicely stated. I’m glad at least some people were able to see the distinction.

      • Aram McLean

        Dear ctcss,
        you weren’t raised as a Christian then. I think your beliefs need to be relabeled, ‘Jesus love’ or some such thing. Still, you were lied to as a child, and it would seem that you still believe the lie that some long dead man dying on a cross for your sins (if this is incorrect, then grand to hear you broke free of it).
        Sin, incidentally, is the biggest lie of all.
        In any case, I’m glad that you feel good about yourself. I do too, now. Still, I hope that you raise your children (assuming you have any) to know that the Bible may have a few good points in it, but they should realize that it is as man-written as Confucius et al and not god inspired. Then I can assure you without a doubt that you are not messing with your children’s psyche.
        All the best

      • smrnda

        I had to weigh in since you mentioned Penn State. I think that though the central issue was child sex abuse, I do think the culture of sports IS a factor. Football was the Biggest Thing Ever at Penn State. It’s quite likely that because of the high status of football, the program would be protected at the expense of people harmed by leaders in the program. Do you think the same level of cover-up would have happened if it’d been some assistant professor of dead languages who got caught? The janitor? No, football was special. Football isn’t evil, but the priorities of placing football so high were.

        I also disagree that parenting IS a dangerous activity. Well meaning parents can do serious damage to kids just because it’s not always easy to know the right thing to do. My parents didn’t abuse me, but they screwed up in lots of ways, all the while thinking they were making great choices. Parenting is dangerous since kids are vulnerable and parents aren’t omniscient.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Aram: A powerful story, thanks.

      • Aram McLean

        Aye well, now problem. It was just the rough points being upchucked rather haphazard here. I’ve written a book dealing with what went on in greater deal. It will be out in a couple months, but if you’re interested in some excerpts from the story (if slightly edited), check out:
        http://leavingfundamentalism.wordpress.com/tag/arams-progress/
        cheers

        • Aram McLean

          I mean, ‘No problem’. I seem to make excessive typos on your site, and then no chance to edit. Oh well :) guess I should re-read before posting.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          I think changes are afoot at Patheos that will soon make editing comments possible.

        • just.chris

          Aram, totally agree. I make more typos on this site than any other. And I am sober the whole time!

          But I am kind of glad post cannot be edited. Some post might get “re-historied” in response to other post pointing out incontinencies, misrespirations and illocales.

        • just.chris

          I mean “inconsistencies, misrepresentations and illogic.”

        • Bob Seidensticker

          I’ve been at places where comment editing was possible … but only for a limited time.

  • http://www.seditiosus.blogspot.com Schaden Freud

    Oh dear, are we being strident again? Tough luck, D’Souza!

  • Richard S. Russell

    Bob, I quibble with your analysis in only one regard. You seem to buy into the idea that atheists are angry and have good cause for their anger. I’ll agree that we have plenty of reason (emphasis on that word) to be irritated, or alarmed, or disappointed, or sad, or righteously indignant, but frankly I don’t see the anger.

    Look at your own comments above. Rational objections to the baleful influence of religion, to be sure, but presented coolly and logically, using reason to demonstrate why religious influence on American society is problematic or counter to our official national ideals. But where’s the anger? I don’t see it at all.

    And that’s generally true of pretty much everything I see from atheists. On Saturdays and Sundays I often hang out on the comment board at CNN.com’s Belief Blog, and I keep hearing this same plaint over and over again from True Believers: “Why are you atheists so angry?”. And I keep asking, over and over, for specific examples of what they think of as anger. All I ever get (and very seldom at that) are quotations of statements that the poster disagrees with. OK, I’ll buy that you disagree, but I was asking for examples of anger! Name one! Be specific! Where are they? In general, nowhere to be found.

    So I agree that there are plenty of reasons to motivate atheists to anger if that’s the way they were disposed to go. But in actuality, atheist anger is like unicorns: often spoken of, seldom observed.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Richard:

      I quibble with your analysis in only one regard.

      I agree with your quibble. I said that they have reasons for anger, but I probably should’ve said that they aren’t really all that angry. I imagine I avoided that simply because it’s an impression (anecdotal) and I have no stats.

      Good point.

  • ctcss

    @just.chris

    “I am not sure if you actually do believe what I though you said.

    Is it true you believe that if someone is an atheist (or some heathen religion) their whole life, living however – with great goodness or great evil or any place in between, that when they die, your God will forgive them even if in during their lifetime, they never worship or acknowledge His existence? And “His” being your particular god?”

    In answer to that, allow me to re-iterate what I said to Bob a short while ago on another thread. “BTW, my concern is not for your eternal well being (if that is what you were referring to). I was basically taught universal salvation. However, it’s a little different than the usual take on universal salvation in that it is a conditional form of universal salvation. That is, God has standards that must be met. However, it is also effectively unconditional because God will not allow anyone to fail. No one is ever abandoned or cast aside or destroyed. As I was taught it, God’s love is absolute, universal, and eternal.”

    “Where does it say that God forgives everybody? I am pretty sure it is absolutely contingent on whether you “believe and ask for forgiveness.” otherwise you get a “go straight to hell” card.”

    And, sadly, a shallow reading of the Bible might leave one with such a notion. People tend to focus on the sensational snippets, rather than look at the deeper, overall message. There is sad irony in the fact that the worldly dictum of the evening news (“if it bleeds, it leads”) has become the way people have come to understand religious concepts.

    Just to use an example from the OT (yes, the OT!), the typical take-away from the story of Jonah (that is, what people usually remember from the story) is that he was swallowed by a whale. (See? Sensationalism rules.) But the story itself is much more interesting. It’s also written in such a way that you don’t find out what is going on until very near the end. Jonah, a prophet, is told “Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord”. So it starts out in the often expected OT way with foreshadowing about the great vengeance that God is about to inflict on the Ninevites (historical enemies of the Jews, and thus ripe candidates for God’s wrath, right?) But Jonah ducks out on his assignment, encounters a storm at sea (seemingly sent by God), is tossed overboard to stop the storm, and is swallowed by a great fish. (More great sensationalism. Great special effects.) But in the midst of that sequence, we see non-Jews (the sailors) trying their best to save both the ship and Jonah. And it is only after listening to Jonah’s insistent (and repentant) pleading that they very reluctantly toss him overboard, asking God for forgiveness for doing such a seemingly heartless and cruel act, and which very much goes against their best instincts. (What? Non-Jewish heathens, worshiping multiple false gods being explicitly characterized by the Jewish story teller as kind and loving and just? The protagonist (a Jewish holy man and a prophet, no less) revealed to be the cause of the problem because of either cowardice, laziness, or outright disobedience to God, being thrown to his likely death? What gives?)

    But it turns out that God doesn’t want Jonah dead, God actually sent the fish to preserve Jonah’s life. And while in the fish, Jonah (who had already begun to realize his mistake while on the ship) humbles himself and realizes that it was by his own choice that he placed himself in danger. And when he repents and vows to be obedient, he is placed back on dry land. (OK, story over, right? Guy makes bad choices, repents, and God lets him go on his way, right? Not quite.) So the story gets back to Jonah’s original mission, which was to go to Nineveh. But this time the command from God seems slightly altered. “Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.” (So what, exactly, is God asking Jonah to preach against these enemies of Israel?) Jonah arrives at this very large city of his enemies and immediately says the following to everyone. “Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” (Yay! Not-associated-with-our-God-in-any-way-and-enemies-of-Israel-to-boot major heathen butt-kicking about to take place! Oops, not quite.) The king of Nineveh is apparently rather worried about what Jonah is saying and asks everyone in his kingdom to sincerely repent to avoid wrathful destruction at God’s hand. OK, so it seems that God put a metaphorical gun to their heads and asked them to say “Uncle”. Except that God didn’t seem to be present at Nineveh in any visible way at all. (He had already supposedly sent a violent, destructive storm to stop Jonah in his tracks, as well as sending a giant fish to swallow Jonah. But the only visible threat to this very large city and its large populace and its many soldiers was a single lone Jew spouting crazy talk? That was all? That’s what stopped them in their tracks and made them tremble? Hmmm.)

    So the upshot of Jonah’s preaching against Nineveh was that they repented and God spared the city. So that should make Jonah happy because the mission God sent him on was a success, right? Nope. Jonah was ticked. He wanted the Ninevites destroyed. Jonah was the one angry with the Ninevites. Jonah wanted the wrath of God inflicted on them. And at this point in the story we finally find out why Jonah had disobeyed God in the first place before the story had barely even gotten started. (And no, we didn’t hear about this little detail until just now.) “And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.” (Hmmm. Apparently Jonah had more than a little suspicion right at the beginning that God was going to be kind and loving to Israel’s enemies, Jonah’s enemies. And rather than face the very uncomfortable fact that maybe God is not petty and tribal after all, but actually universal and loving, Jonah felt the (literal and figurative) need to run as far away from that realization as he could. OK, but after all this, he gets it now, right? Nope.)

    So what does Jonah do now? He asks God to kill him. “Therefore now, O Lord, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live. Then said the Lord, Doest thou well to be angry?” (A very good question indeed, but apparently not one that Jonah is willing to consider just yet.) So Jonah goes outside the city and waits to see if God will accede to Jonah’s desire to have the city destroyed. So, does God, having obtained His main purpose regarding Nineveh, go on His way and leave Jonah to stew in his own petty juices? (Nope. We’re talking God here, not an exasperated human who has better things to do that to waste time on a stubborn, single, bitter, angry person.) So Jonah waits, and while he waits, God causes a very leafy gourd vine to grow up to shade Jonah from the sun, which Jonah appreciates very much. But during the night, God sends a worm to destroy the vine, and then sends a very hot wind the next day, so that Jonah is baking in the sun and the hot wind. So now Jonah is ticked about the fate of the vine, which (1) was rather useful to him and which (2) certainly didn’t deserve to be destroyed like that. And once again, in anger and frustration about this perceived unfairness, Jonah asks to die rather than to live. (Boy, this guy is rather melodramatic! He’s acting like, well, a frustrated and rather self-righteous human being.)

    So finally, God lays it out for him (and us) to help him realize what motivated God to send Jonah in the first place. (And, no, it wasn’t to exact retribution or destruction on Nineveh, nor was it to betray Israel, nor was it even to betray Jonah.) “And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death. Then said the Lord, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night: And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?”

    We never hear Jonah’s response to that loving entreaty, but we can imagine it. The point of the story, of course, is to make the listener (or the reader) think. This is a Jewish story, obviously preserved and valued by being placed in their scriptures, yet the story doesn’t go to an obvious, crowd pleasing endpoint where the enemies of Israel are destroyed. Rather, it brings out a much higher concept of God and God’s relationship, not just with His prophets, and not just with His people Israel, but with everyone, even so-called enemies. It starts out with the reader seeing a familiar human perspective about vengeance and retribution and gradually moves that perspective until the reader begins to see a more unfamiliar divine perspective where there is concern and compassion right from the start because there was a very great need for such divine understanding and mercy.

    From my take on the story, it would appear that God sent Jonah at that particular time, not because God was hoping to have a chance to destroy Nineveh, nor because He was petty and vindictive and wanted to bully them, but because Nineveh was finally in a frame of mind where they were willing to hear and embrace the message that would save them. (Nineveh had been around for quite some time. If God had really wanted to kick their butt, He could have done it at any time He wanted. But instead of so doing, He seemed to wait until they were ready to repent (to rethink, reconsider) what was really important in their lives. Thus, one lone Jew was sufficient, no pyrotechnics or earthquakes or disasters were necessary to make the point. The point was there and they were ready to hear it.)

    Now, I have no idea whether or not the Ninevites ever had such a change of heart, nor whether Jonah even existed. This is a story, after all. But I find it interesting that a Jewish author wanted to convey to his own people such an inspired message about God’s nature and God’s intention towards everyone (not just the Jewish people), as well as the fact that successive Jewish religious authorities seemed to want to include this story in their collection, rather than just chucking it in the bin as wrong-headed, disloyal-to-the-tribe thinking.

    And thus, in this Biblical example and others, I see God as patiently waiting until everyone (believing, different believing, non-believing, good, or evil) is willing to repent (to rethink, reconsider) what is important. God works, not in terms of time and finiteness, nor in terms of blink-of-an-eye human lifespans, nor in terms of human social, civil, or religious affiliations, nor in terms of limited human understanding and compassion, but in divine terms of eternity and infinity. And that eternity and infinity includes an eternal and infinite love for all of His creation. “I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” Which, as the people of Nineveh discovered, included even them.

    “What branch of Christianity do you follow?”

    At the moment I do not feel fully comfortable sharing this information online. Suffice it to say, my branch is not mainstream. However, if it is really important to you, we can visit the matter offline.

    • Bob Jase

      So you actually believe the fairy tale of Jonah living for three days inside the digestive juices of a giant fish and yet you want to be taken seriously?

    • trj

      Jonah follows the standard recipe found in the OT’s 17 books of prophets:

      1) Curse, condemn and trash-talk some city or nation (or alternatively just everybody in general). Call them filth, dogs, whores, what have you.
      2) Outline all the glorious destruction God in his anger will wreak upon the sinners (rivers of blood, fires, plagues, famines, killing of infants, and other sick stuff). Make it clear that God will be absolutely fucking merciless.
      3) Sometimes God offers the sinners a chance to repent, so as to avoid their imminent destruction.

      Of course, not many of these prophecies of destruction, if any, actually come to pass. I suppose God must be merciful after all. Or maybe he’s all bluster.

      You can find passages where God appears loving, merciful, and contemplative. But read books like Hosea, Zephaniah, Ezekiel, or Isiah, and you’ll find a crude, bloodthirsty god who will kill and kill and keep on killing, in the most brutal ways possible. Not that he actually gets around to it, but even those empty threats belie the image of the sophisticated, loving god you want to promote.

      A loving god doesn’t threaten to kill your children.

      • Richard S. Russell

        I always thot God should be referred to as “Your Assholiness”.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          :)

    • just.chris

      ctcss,

      Thank you for the what must have been time consuming reply. And Mr. Jase, ctcss did say, “Now, I have no idea whether or not the Ninevites ever had such a change of heart, nor whether Jonah even existed. This is a story, after all.”

      Ctcss you seem to take the OT stories to be more like the NT parables.

      It is very comforting that Christian’s like you exist. I would like to know your sect if for nothing more than to suggest it to persons who feel the need to believe but can’t find tolerant, socially liberal “institutions.”

      I have always been an atheist but I have always been interested in mythology and the anthropology of stories. Less so but still of interest is the intersection of politics/control and religion. However, I am disappointed in Christianizing of our “modern” government, and the unfairness of tax relief for approved religions.

      When my children were young, I told them what I thought. I never even encouraged the belief in Santa Claus and we made up a much more plausible “Easter Chicken” for fun. But I did take them to various houses of worship sometimes, some more than once, to expose them to what else was out there. Neither were in their teens yet. My oldest son was very taken with reformed Judaism, as was I, they were inclusive and interpreted the chosen people to be all people. Catholicism was too ritualistic, I mean men in dresses advising woman about birth control? In some flavors of Catholicism, nuns take vows of poverty but not the preist. We were actually frightened at the two different strains of evangelical services and left before they ended. I’ve been to a Church of God funeral service which impressed me very much – the congregations addition of their stories of the life of the deceased was very cathartic. The food was best at the Hare Krishna Center in Boston. Stateside Baptist were too self-righteous but we went to a Baptist service in the Bahama’s that was awesome – the delivery with congregation participation was a show of phenomenal word play, which was very entertaining, and unbelievably musical with the entire congregation participating in multi-part harmonies with overlaying lyrics – just fantastic.

      Now I meditate irregularly at various local Buddhist centers, but near half the attendees are Christian. I am the only atheist I’ve encountered so far.

      I wish my family relative’s Christian doctrines were more along the lines of the ones you have so far revealed. I have two step brothers, I don’t know if the oldest ever actually came out to the family but at least some of us knew. He died of aids before effective treatments had been discovered. When my other step brother came out, after 20 years of marriage and two kids. All hell broke loose. His divorce got nasty and our parents sided with the wife and basically told my brother he was going to burn in hell, any time they had any contact with him. At a time his suffering could have been eased by their love and support; they more than abandon him, they judged and condemned him.

      I used to argue with my father all the time about this condemnation of my step brother. I’d say, “what are the worst things a human can do in the eyes of your God? 10 commandments right?” Then I’d point out that I used the Lord’s name in vain on a regular basis, i.e., “god damn fucking dog shit,” was one of my go to profanities (I worked with computers you must understand). Yet they did not tell me I was going to hell every time they spoke with me. I also pointed out that intra-gender sexual relations was back in Leviticus with a bunch of dietary restrictions like “don’t eat shrimp.”

      So I, a 10 commandment sinning, atheist was accepted; their consumption of shrimp was accepted; but to my step-brother’s sexual preference the responded with abandonment and condemnation and hell-fire and brime-stone phone calls. And showing his preteen children videos of partial birth abortions. That should be a criminal offense.

      After a year or so it became apparent, even to our parents, that the difficulties and untruths and power plays were result of the wife’s vindictiveness and she knew when they were married he was at least bisexual. She denied prior knowledge of his sexual preferences and it was pivotal point in the divorce when an entry in one of her diaries she wrote before they were married proved she was fully aware. And apparently our parents reexamined their position on condemning him for his sexual preference and they now have a pleasant supportive relationship with my step-brother. They were together at Christmas, when I called all of them sounded genuinely happy to be spending time together as a family again – parents, brother and kids, now teenagers.

      I’ve always joked with my step-brother that when Moses came down with the tablets of the 10 commandments and threw them on the ground and broke them because of the golden calf incident. When he went back up the Lord and he couldn’t remember exactly what were the original 10. Since 1 – worship no other god but me and 2 – don’t worship false idols is pretty much the same thing, I figure they forgot the one about homosexuality on the original tablets. And since adultery is covered by the coveting one, there may have been a commandment forbidding spam in the original 10, too.

      Ctcss does your flavor of Christianity judge people or is it tolerant of behaviors (love the sinner, hate the sin sort of thing) and leave the judging up to God?

      Its funny but a bit reassuring to me that even the evangelicals, with their teaching of fear and unworthiness, that outside of church, if you avoid religious discussions, they appear to be nice people, polite and kind at least to me. I wonder, if I wer gay or a known abortion clinician would they be as polite and kind. Maybe most would, but certainly a few would even resort breaking one of their commandments in order to, in their opinion, stop someone else from breaking the same commandment. It is weird how fucked up religions seem to get. I suppose it is because we are all human, and humans fuck up.

      Also, do you pick and choose OT stories to fit the kinder gentler god or are most people reading all the stories incorrectly. When it comes to things like Sodom and Gomorrah, even Lot’s wife was destroyed and she was supposed to be “good,” just curious or heart broken at the loss of her friends and community maybe. And the Noah’ arch story, didn’t everyone (and most things too) on the entire earth drown except for those on the arc? What are those stories suppose to mean, what do they exemplify?

      I am really curious how these stories fit in to your philosophy.

      And BTW – you’ve asked many times and I’ve yet to reply but yes we are friends.

      Thank you for the time you put into your responses. Please excuse my use of profanity in this post. It may have been excusable in my example of using the Lord’s name in vain but probably not necessary. The other couple times I just got lazy. They conveyed my meaning too well and trying to find more acceptable substitutes weakened the sentiment. Everyone please accept my apology.

      Stick, do you have rules on the use of profanity?

  • Rick

    Bob,

    So now we’re on the same page. Great.

    Yes, and we are witnesses to your unwillingness to address your statement,

    …what did you have in mind to be the guardrail for keeping me from teaching my kids what the Bible contains?

    Since you say you don’t want it outlawed, we are on the same page that you are stepping away from your statement in the article. There, you indicated that wanted the teaching of religion to be treated as an adult topic for which civil and criminal penalties apply.

    It is rare and difficult for someone to admit error, so I recognize this is just your subtle way of doing so. Thanks. We are indeed on the same page. And the first amendment is still in force.

    Now that’s a relief.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Rick:

      There, you indicated that wanted the teaching of religion to be treated as an adult topic for which civil and criminal penalties apply.

      You can’t win by playing fairly so you must invent a statement to put in my mouth?

      • Rick

        I thought I was doing the opposite.

        So do you support criminal and civil penalties for teaching of religious principles? You say no, but you also say you want them treated the same way as we treat “cigarettes, sex, or alcohol.” Providing cigarettes or alcohol to minors has penalties, as well as providing pornography to minors. Since teaching about religion to children is kind of like providing these prohibited things to them, what practical outworking should we believe you support? That only teaching the dangers of the thing in question (cigarettes, sex, alcohol, religion) is to be supported? That teaching to use these things practically should be deterred? What are you really saying? I don’t want to put words in your mouth, so tell me.

        • sane37

          There are many people who don’t care for criminal penalties for underage drinking, smoking or sex, but who would refrain from promoting or encouraging children to participate in such activities.

          Children are too easily manipulated as their minds are still forming, hence the tendency to protect them from such things by good people.

          Make more sense now?

        • Rick

          If you are equating these things with teaching kids about right and wrong in the context of a religious environment, then no, it makes no more sense now. You haven’t specified how teaching moral principles equates to treating the items in the original blog post as “an adult issue.”

        • sane37

          moral principles are not equal to religious ideology.
          some religious ideology can be moral, but religious ideology and belief are not automatically moral.

          Morality is independent of your religion.

        • Rick

          1) No one said moral principles are equal to religious ideology, nor has anyone said that “religious ideology and belief are … automatically moral.

          2) I’m sure your morality is separate from my beliefs about religion. My morality isn’t.

          Not sure what point you are trying to make with these strawman arguments.

        • sane37

          no strawman.
          Just saying that morality is does not have to depend on religion. It exists regardless.

        • Rick

          Thanks for the clarification. It isn’t what you said originally. I agree that there are some who hold moral principles who are not outwardly religious. Beyond that, your statement is a statement of opinion, not objective fact. Where the morality comes from is open to interpretation.

        • sane37

          Morality comes from the fact that Humans are social animals. In order to survive we have to work together. This requires a moral code.

          Religious is based in the mind only. By faith.
          It is secondary to Human survival.

          Monkeys do not appear to have gods because there is no need for them for day to day survival. They do, however, have to work together to survive.

          I am glad that as a species we have the luxury of inventing gods to comfort ourselves rather than scraping for mere existence.

        • Rick

          You’ve made some assertions without basis. These are your opinions, and you are welcome to hold them. But stating them with the certainty that you do suggests you have an evidence-based position. I don’t think you do.

          An alternate possibility is that there really is a God who created a universe with order and a special class of creatures capable of morality not found in monkeys.

          I’m glad that as a species, we have the ability to reason and discuss these things. But I don’t think that ability is accidental. That is an opinion, to be sure.

          Consider one of many data points. We see all manner examples of apparent design–of order that is too complex to be explained by any naturalistic means. The range of these examples spans from astronomy to biology to chemistry and microbiology. To me, that evidence is stronger than the opinions you have provided, so my faith seems to be in an object far more worthy of faith than the absence of design in which you trust.

          Faith is dependable only as the object of that faith is shown to be worthy of trust. We all trust in some origin narrative. I don’t see yours as reasonable.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          DNA alone defeats the Design Hypothesis. There may well be a cosmic Designer, but DNA does not look like what a designer would design–far too sloppy. More here–though you’ve probably already read and dismissed this.

        • Rick

          DNA does nothing of the kind. From the most “wordy” DNA coding to the most elegantly simple as we would describe it, every organism contains functioning DNA that works to make that organism a complete system of systems.

          Just because you have imposed a set of totally arbitrary criteria concerning DNA volume does not make that the test of whether it is designed. I find your C Enigma argument totally unconvincing. A Model T looks clunky by today’s standards, but no one mistakes it for a random happenstance.

          DNA is far more complex in every single organism than any computer program we have designed with all our prowess. And as a software coder, you know this to be true. You just resist the logical conclusion.

        • Kodie

          You can’t claim god is perfect if you are making excuses. A designer, but a shitty one?

        • Rick

          Gosh, Kodie. That wasn’t my claim. It is Bob’s claim that the designer is a poor one. I’m making the opposite claim.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Not really. I’m saying that, knowing designers as we do, we do not see the hand of a designer in DNA. I’m not saying that we see a poor designer; I’m saying that the Design Hypothesis is busted.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          every organism contains functioning DNA that works to make that organism a complete system of systems.

          Yes, every organism contains working DNA. No, that’s not what we’re talking about.

          Just because you have imposed a set of totally arbitrary criteria concerning DNA volume does not make that the test of whether it is designed.

          Nope, not arbitrary but rather demanded. Don’t blame me for making up the Design Hypothesis–that demands that this hypothesized creator be a designer. OK, so what criteria do designers follow? Low cost, high strength, beauty, durability, and so on are possible criteria that designers in a thousand different fields might impose.

          Your challenge: show me one field of design where junk is deliberately added. I’m not talking about trash that’s not cleaned up at the job site. I’m not talking about one man’s beautiful decoration being another man’s junk. I’m talking about a designer deliberately adding junk.

          I find your C Enigma argument totally unconvincing.

          While you’re being unconvinced about the all-wise Designer creating amoebas with 200× the DNA that humans have, don’t forget to be unconvinced as well about pseudogenes, endogenous retroviruses, atavism, and vestigial structures.

          (This is the topic of Wednesday’s post.)

          DNA is far more complex in every single organism than any computer program we have designed with all our prowess.

          DNA is a Rube Goldberg machine. It makes our all-wise designer look like a mad scientist.

          And as a software coder, you know this to be true. You just resist the logical conclusion.

          You mean: Ain’t nature marvelous? Got it.

        • Rick

          Don’t blame me for making up the Design Hypothesis–that demands that this hypothesized creator be a designer. OK, so what criteria do designers follow? Low cost, high strength, beauty, durability, and so on are possible criteria that designers in a thousand different fields might impose.

          Where is it written that your estimation of “Low cost, high strength, beauty, durability, and so on” are the criteria by which we judge whether or not something is designed? I don’t see a citation that makes your judgment the end of the road on that subject.

          Vestigial structures are pretty much a non-argument. They have been shown to have functions. You can trot out some examples that may not have been addressed yet, in all likelihood. But the major ones have functions in humans and the rest seem to me to be grasping at straws.

          DNA is a Rube Goldberg machine. It makes our all-wise designer look like a mad scientist.

          I guess that’s in the eye of the beholder. Looks like a lot of beautifully functioning organisms to me.

          We just spent a few days scuba diving. Lots of unique creatures. All seemed to work just fine with the DNA they were issued. Can you say the same for any carefully designed software we humans have ever produced?

          Yet we would scoff at anyone saying the far less complex software just happened by accidents of mutation in copying and natural selection of the variants that worked with greater complexity. Why is it different for DNA? When I made a mistake programming in my computer classes years ago, all I got was an error message. Nothing worked.

          Kind of like evolution by random mutation. Can’t work to increase information complexity. The emperor has no clothes, as usual. You have no evidence to the contrary. Show me one case where information content can be shown to have increased in complexity, (and I won’t accept the long discredited bacteria argument—they are still bacteria which favor the variant not attacked by the drug in question—a loss of complexity, not a gain.)

          All of this is far afield from my original point, which was that sane37 made some assertions about what he believed to be true as if they were proven facts. You are now doing the same thing, of course. We need to be more circumspect about what we know versus what we believe to be likely. That was my point. Strongly asserting a point of view shouldn’t take the place of reasoned discussion nor for cogent arguments.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Where is it written that your estimation of “Low cost, high strength, beauty, durability, and so on” are the criteria by which we judge whether or not something is designed? I don’t see a citation that makes your judgment the end of the road on that subject.

          Seems obvious to me. But, hey—maybe I missed something. Aside from “You’re wrong!” I didn’t get anything that would show us how you would spot the hand of a designer in something. You just going to keep that secret or do we have to pay or what?

          Vestigial structures are pretty much a non-argument. They have been shown to have functions.

          No one said they didn’t have functions. I just said that they were vestigial—they no longer have their original function.

          Yes, they’re an argument.

          You can trot out some examples that may not have been addressed yet

          I’ve addressed this more thoroughly in Wednesday’s post, but for DNA, there are a handful of categories, not dozens.

          I guess that’s in the eye of the beholder. Looks like a lot of beautifully functioning organisms to me.

          I can marvel at the intricacy of a Rube Goldberg machine as well. Complexity can be marvelous. I think, though, that simplicity might be more what we’d expect from an omniscient designer.

          All seemed to work just fine with the DNA they were issued.

          Wow—I acknowledged that in the last comment and showed where the actual question is. Are we going to move forward, or are you just going to keep repeating your opening arguments?

          Can you say the same for any carefully designed software we humans have ever produced?

          Huh? DNA is just like human software in this regard—works pretty well but not perfectly.

          “Over 4000 human diseases are caused by single gene defects.” More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_illness.

          Yet we would scoff at anyone saying the far less complex software just happened by accidents of mutation in copying and natural selection of the variants that worked with greater complexity.

          And software can evolve. The result is a hideous mess (from the human standpoint). Two very different approaches. I’d imagine that there are lots of similarities between sloppy DNA and sloppy evolved software (again: from the human standpoint).

          When I made a mistake programming in my computer classes years ago, all I got was an error message. Nothing worked.

          Then maybe you’ve forgotten. There are a lot more options than “It works” and “It works as good an empty program—that is, it doesn’t do a single thing.”

          Can’t work to increase information complexity. The emperor has no clothes, as usual.

          Right. Except that the people who actually understand this stuff (that is, not you or me) explain in a couple of sentences how well-understood mutations can produce new information. I think I’ll go with the experts.

          Show me one case where information content can be shown to have increased in complexity

          I imagine I don’t understand the question. You can have base pair B. Then a mutation happens and it gets doubled: BB. Then one of the base pairs gets mutated: BC. New information. More complexity.

          sane37 made some assertions about what he believed to be true as if they were proven facts. You are now doing the same thing, of course.

          Of course! But you’ll have to remind me what I’m asserting as fact that isn’t fact. I missed it.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I forget the post now, but you’d commented some weeks back about the burden put on school kids in public school. Something about it being an atheistic view? Or that the secular schools were unfair to Christians? Something like that.

          Sorry that I can’t remember the post, but I replied to you and didn’t receive a reply. If you’re still interested in that topic (and remember the post), I’d be interested in your response.

      • Richard S. Russell

        Reminds me of my days as a copy editor at my college newspaper, when I would occasionally have to explain to our (admittedly amateur and volunteer) reporters the difference between imply and infer.

        These days I find myself increasingly devoting comparable time to comprise, consist, and constitute or reluctance, recalcitrance, and reticence. And then there’s my bête noire, the obnoxious substitute … with.

  • RichardSRussell

    Morality, as a matter of opinion, is always relative and context-sensitive.

    For example, it’s often been remarked that, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

    Similarly, if we’d evolved from mantises instead of apes, it would be immoral not to eat your husband’s head off after sex.

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