A “Personal Relationship” With Jesus? Let’s Test That.

Personal Relationship with JesusThink about someone you know well—a friend or relative, say. Now list the attributes that make them unique. You could give the physical attributes that would help me find them at the airport—gender and age, height and weight, hair color and style, and so on—but you know much more than that.

You might know how they shake hands and if they like to hug. You might know their favorite music and sports, their favorite foods and food allergies, which TV shows they like and which they hate, their annoying habits, the names of their pets, their medical issues, where they went to school and where they’ve lived, and their past jobs. You may have helped them through a tough patch in life or vice versa.

You recognize their voice and their laugh. You have funny stories you could tell at their retirement party and poignant stories for their funeral—or vice versa.

If you have a “personal relationship with Jesus,” can you say the same thing? Can you list attributes about Jesus? If so, do you imagine that they’re the same as those of other Christians? If not, why call this a relationship?

Christians today only know Jesus from the artwork. But give your Jesus a haircut, a shave, and modern clothes. As Richard Russell (whose essay inspired this post) observed about Jesus, “You couldn’t pick him out of a 1-person lineup.” Jesus is nothing but a costume.

The many flavors of “relationship”

Consider a sequence of relationships, starting with the strongest.

  • 1. Start with the one described above, an intimate, long-term relationship with a family member or close friend.
  • 2. Now we begin to degrade the relationship. Consider a less-intimate relationship with someone you’ve met face to face. This might be neighbor, co-worker, acquaintance from a party, or just the parent of one of your kid’s classmates who you recognize but whose name you’ve forgotten. You have strong evidence that you met someone, though you have few intimate details.
  • 3. This is a voice- or text-only relationship such as a pen pal or online friend. Though these relationships can be intimate, no one would consider them equivalent to a face-to-face relationship. They can be spoofed (I wrote about the unfortunate Manti Teʻo here).
  • 4. Finally, drop even this channel of communication so that there is no objective evidence of any intelligence on the other end of the relationship except a mirror of yourself. You can fool yourself quite easily (and if you’re responding, “No, I can’t!” then you see how unassailable your own flawed ideas can be). Maybe there really is an intelligence that refuses to communicate any way except this one, but this is indistinguishable from an imaginary friend or delusion.

We know what person and relationship mean. We can look them up. “Relationship” #4 is unlike any actual relationship with an actual person. My guess is that we’re seeing what has been called Shermer’s Law: smart Christians using their substantial intellect to defend beliefs they adopted for indefensible reasons. They might be Christians who adopted that worldview from their environment, but as adults, they know that “cuz I was raised that way” is no intellectual justification for their Christian belief. They can’t admit to having an imaginary friend. Instead, they handwave that they have a relationship with an actual person, no less real than their relationship with buddies at the gym or book club.

We see this definition fiddling with other positive words—good, just, and merciful, for example. These are great words to apply to their favorite deity, but, given some of God’s shenanigans, Christians must “improve” the definitions. Sorry—that’s not how words are used.

Perversely, relationship #4 is the one that apologist William Lane Craig insists is the strongest and the least in need of evidence (I’ve written more here). Only in religion, where every day is Opposite Day, could a lack of evidence be heralded as a virtue.

The only reason you keep [claiming
your “deep, personal relationship with Jesus Christ”]
is because it’s the slogan of the club
that some con artist or charlatan has suckered you into believing
you really want to be a member of.
— Richard S. Russell

This post was inspired by “That Deep, Personal Relationship with Jesus Christ” by Richard S. Russell.

Image credit: Don Addis

Christianity, the Ultimate Unfalsifiable Hypothesis
Christian Apologists Find No Meaning in Life
’Tis the Season!
William Lane Craig Misrepresents Christianity and Insults Islam
About Bob Seidensticker
  • RichardSRussell

    “Atheism is not a religion, it’s a personal relationship with reality.”
    —Dr. Dave, 2010 July 1

    • InDogITrust

      For the win!

    • CayuseWarrior

      Here we go again changing the meaning of words. Religion is a broad base term for the existence of man specifically yourself. So you can make a claim that only Atheist are based in reality. Of which not one Atheist can claim is the reality of his existence. But if it soothes you insecurity, great.

      If we all were her to think alike. Why is there more than 1 of us? Now many if we all were to transcend are ego selves to not thinking at all. Just perfect silence and experience of nature without our personal physical material desires, wants, emotions and sense pleasures. That is Christ or GOD Consciousness.

      • TheSquirrel

        Your post might have a greater impact if it was comprehensible…

        • JohnH2

          No, actually, I don’t think it would.

          Cayuse is espousing a common mystic Christian philosophy which is largely based on Buddhism, even if Cayuse may not be aware of that (as it was smuggled in by at least 900 A.D. and also appears to have existed previously in some form with gnostic Christianity).

        • TheSquirrel

          Greater, not great. Since it currently only inspires confusion as one picks through it to try and figure out what EXACTLY he’s saying in that mess above…
          Well, it’d be nice if he could effectively communicate his ideas. Formulating a response that isn’t just a caustic commentary on his language skills would be possible and a more efficient dialog could be engaged in.
          Not that I expect it to be enlightening or anything…

        • 90Lew90

          Buddha never said “Follow me.” Quite the opposite.

        • TheSquirrel

          Yeah, I definitely picked up some gnostic notes in his posts. He better not let the american fundies hear him talking like that…

        • MNb

          That clarifies something, but I still can’t make chocolate of what he writes, as we Dutch say. OK, he objects changing the meaning of words, something I totally agree with. My problem is that I don’t get what he means with the words he uses.
          Still I appreciate your attempt.

      • 90Lew90

        What the…? Chuckle.

      • FaithIsGlorifiedDelusion

        “Can you be wrong about that?” – Sye ten Bruggencate, The Best Goddamn Apologist in the Goddamn World

        • 90Lew90

          Did he drink Carlsberg?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I didn’t see his debate with Matt Dillahunty. Did you see it?

        • ZenDruid

          Sye has a way of gratuitously stimulating headdesks, facepalms, and rolleyes. I couldn’t get through the whole thing.

        • FaithIsGlorifiedDelusion

          If you see one debate with Sye in it, then you’ve seen them all.

        • JohnH2

          At the hour mark, I am beginning to think that if you have seen about five minutes of a debate with Sye in it you have seen everything.

        • FaithIsGlorifiedDelusion

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OL8LREmbDi0

          Spoiler: Sye get’s his Presup ass handed to him.

        • JohnH2

          Descartes to Sye: Sye meet induction.

        • Ron

          http://i.imgur.com/soFuzXy.jpg

          (Image Source: Friendly Atheist)

          That was his entire contribution to the debate.

      • RichardSRussell

        Here we go again changing the meaning of words.

        Most considerate of you to announce your intentions in advance.

      • jaxative

        Again, what is the point you are trying to make? I sense that you are TRYING to get a point across, but I don’t see what that point is. Your spelling is good but your grammar and sentence structure points to home schooling or someone who has only ever read 1 book.

        • CayuseWarrior

          You attack my english and spelling. and you cannot read:

          “Religion is a broad base term for the existence of man specifically yourself.”

          Or “So you can make a claim that only Atheist are based in reality.”

          Or ” Of which not one Atheist can claim is the reality of his existence. ”

          You having trouble with sentence structure?

          Oh, you did not like my comment of Self-Realization. Why? You are goup participator and you like who you can meet. You are lonely.

        • 90Lew90

          “Religion is a broad base term for the existence of man specifically yourself.”

          For a start, that is just nonsense. I think it is you who has trouble with sentences. First rule: A sentence must make sense. I learned that when I was a five-year-old.

        • Pofarmer

          I’m glad I’m not the only one who had a WTF moment with that one.

        • Greg G.

          You attack my english and spelling. and you cannot read

          How is saying “Your spelling is good” an attack on your spelling? It seems to say something about your reading comprehension.

          I would ask what “goup participato” means but I don’t want to know.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You are goup participator and you like who you can meet. You are lonely.

          You are a Magic 8 Ball.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Better than being a Fairy GOD mothers. Oh, what big teeth or many teeth you have Grand Mother.

          You know the wold in sheep’s clothing? You know when you have to keep interpreting and they just gain in the lack of knowledge. That is when ignorance is simply pure stubborness

        • aar9n

          re·li·gion
          riˈlijən/
          noun
          noun: religion
          the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
          “ideas about the relationship between science and religion”
          synonyms:faith, belief, worship, creed; More

          a particular system of faith and worship.
          plural noun: religions
          “the world’s great religions”
          a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
          “consumerism is the new religion”

  • JohnH2

    I would be decently surprised if Craig claims 4, he probably claims 3, which really isn’t too much of a difference from the relationship we have; you have a very few details about me, but you couldn’t pick me out of a crowd or recognize me if we met in person. You don’t have proof that I am not a chatbot that is designed to pass the Turing Test, though I hope you have pretty good evidence of that not being the case.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      What are you saying–that WLC hears God in his head, like a schizophrenic?

      I have very good evidence that you’re not a chatbot since the technology to do what you’ve done doesn’t exist yet AFAIK. In 20 years, that may be a different story. But as I noted, it’s possible to be spoofed with #3.

      Our relationship is #3, which is vastly different from #4. Now that I think of it, maybe that numbered list needs to be seen as logarithmic to highlight this vast difference.

      • JohnH2

        What are you saying–that WLC hears God in his head, like a schizophrenic?

        Pretty much.

        you’re not a chatbot since the technology to do what you’ve done doesn’t exist yet AFAIK

        It was reported that a chatbot had passed the Turing Test the last few days. Then people that aren’t basically chatbots themselves got involved in correcting the reporting.

        • MNb

          Are you hearing your god in your head?

        • JohnH2
        • MNb

          I’m asking you, not what your scriptures say. Your personal experience interests me. Are you hearing god in your head? This is not a trick or something. If you say yes I won’t think you’re crazy, neither will I conclude that you’re lying. I do have some follow up questions, but they depend on your answer.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          That would surprise me about WLC. Do you hear God like that?

          Re chatbots: keep in mind that the classic Turing test is fairly limited–15 minutes, as I recall. I haven’t looked into the recent success you mention. Assuming all the JohnH2 comments are from the same source, “you” have passed a much more challenging test.

          On the other hand, maybe the crazy religious bullshit that occasionally comes from “JohnH2″ could be explained by a brainless chatbot …

        • JohnH2

          Having not been schizophrenic, I can’t say for sure but it doesn’t appear to me to be anything like schizophrenia based on the schizophrenic’s that I do know, and the schizophrenic’s that I do know that are also religious also report it to be different, but yes, in the mind and in the heart.

          Just because you disagree with something I say doesn’t mean that it is necessarily wrong or that it is crazy and certainly doesn’t mean that it is brainless.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I’ve heard that hearing a voice as a delusion is just like hearing a real person–very different from just a feeling or a sense of communication.

          Yes, yes–I was just taking an opportunity for a low blow since we were talking about brainless sources of communication. Just because I disagree doesn’t mean that you’re crazy or even wrong.

        • Greg G.

          Just because you disagree with something I say doesn’t mean that it is necessarily wrong or that it is crazy and certainly doesn’t mean that it is brainless.

          A machine programmed to respond in this manner might be to artificially sound human to pass the Turing test.

        • 90Lew90

          Aside: Apparently a supercomputer managed to convince a panel it was a 13-year-old boy. Presumably it grunted and sulked a lot. And took longer than usual in bathroom breaks.

  • 90Lew90

    Catholics are big on the “personal relationship” stuff. I remember all manner of tripe in that theme from the pulpit from my youth. It was also how my mother imparted Catholicism to me. A lot of it was about “asking God” for this or that. A saint for every problem, like a lost set of keys, or a lost boy in the woods. (“What was his name again? Hmmff!) I wouldn’t be too surprised to find that the “personal relationship” stuff coming from the intelligent adults you mention is just conceptions of this kind of relationship to God and Jesus, inculcated in childhood, and deeply internalised. That would seem to add up, but I’m not a psychologist so I’ll quit with the speculative psycho-babble.

    I will say however that I’ve been convinced for some time now, and not a single Christian poster here has done anything to dispel my suspicion, that the persistence of their belief is self-serving and fear-based. Of that I’m almost utterly convinced.

    • JohnH2

      ” self-serving and fear-based”

      Please explain.

      • 90Lew90

        I suggest you read the Christian posters. One week back should suffice. Find a post by “Jay” for instance and go back a week. That should give you a flavour of it.

        • JohnH2

          Right, but I am, at least under my own definition of the word a Christian.

          Not sure if being crazy (your words regarding me) is better than fear-based or not.

        • 90Lew90

          In declaring that you are a Christian “under [your] own definition”, you intimate that were I to draw you out (and no I can’t be bothered, it’s almost midnight here), we would probably get to a point at which I could suggest that your belief is self-serving.

          Of the fear thing, it is so deeply inculcated in Christians that their religion acts as a moral yardstick, that it sets out of the bounds of morality, and that morality itself derives from the God their religion describes, that to the true believer, who has been taught that man is a fallen creature, the thought of rejecting his religion, and thus his God, raises all kinds of terrible fears about the fate that would befall him. He fears wrath, at worst, he fears the nihilism he supposes he would fall into, he fears his own moral disintegration. I could go on but I’m tired and I think you probably see what I’m getting at.

        • JohnH2

          I have noticed that you often respond to me when you are tired and/or drunk, which sometimes leads to very interesting or amusing responses from you.

          “under my own definition” means I am a Mormon and many Christians do not consider Mormons to be Christian, for reasons that at least make sense. Good and evil are independent of God for one thing, fallen man has the ability to choose good or evil regardless of belief or knowledge of religion.

          Though any fear of rejecting God by a Christian presupposes that there is a God for them to reject, demonstrating belief independent of the fear itself.

        • 90Lew90

          Tired/drunk are the permanently alternating conditions of a functioning alcoholic. :-) I know next to nothing about Mormonism so I’m not about to challenge you on that basis. Forgive me for supposing that when you said you were using your “own definition”, I thought you meant you were using your own definition. In my by now quite considerable experience of talking with Christians, it seems to me that there are as many Christianities as there are Christians.

          Whittled down, the reason people seem to cling to the idea that they have a “personal God” are, well, personal. And looked at squarely, those personal reasons are self-serving. It may be about “comfort”, it may be about “hope”, and yes, it may alleviate some irrational fear, but ultimately, this is self-serving. This would be all well and good but for the fact that I think religion is a source of harm in the world, and a multitude of believers, believing for their good and their good alone, gives the lie to any claim that religion is good “for humanity”. It is more like narcissism to me. It also gives the lie to the claim that believers make that they’re all talking about the same thing. Plainly, as you intimate, with your “own definition”, they’re not.

          Religions have any number of hooks in order to retain numbers. The Abrahamic religions castigate anyone who would dare to leave them. This is more muted in Christianity and Judaism than Islam, but each of them has their own equivalent. If a person thinks that to reject his religion is tantamount to rejecting his god, then depending on the type of person he is, he may be very likely to stay put and fret.

          You don’t become an atheist by being “saved” in some sense (although you could call it that). It’s very often a gradual process whereby first you lose interest in the religion you’re brought up in, or in going to church or whatever, and then you begin to take an interest in what you were told, because to be an atheist is not to say you’re not a “spiritual” person and you may still be open to exploring that part of yourself. Getting to the point where you decide that even the god that’s been presented to you as fact is also to your mind made-up bullshit can take a lot of time. Fearing that to even embark on that journey by first rejecting your religion basically hobbles you before you’re out the church door. I think that’s deliberate. The Abrahamic religions do, after all, have a strong strain of tribalism built into them. For me at least, religion went first, and the god I was told about followed it a while later. This was all some time ago now.

        • JohnH2

          “It also gives the lie to the claim that believers make that they’re all talking about the same thing. Plainly, as you intimate, with your “own definition”, they’re not.”

          Of course we aren’t, the Mormon view of God and even the standard Christian view of God are nearly completely contradictory, throw in the Christian mystic view and there really isn’t room to say that we all believe in God and have that even mean anything.

        • 90Lew90

          Eh?

        • MNb

          I suppose – but it’s always risky to talk for others – that John has something in mind about “god” and “god image”. This Kantian idea is quite popular among theologians. I also suppose that he recognizes that some “god images”, even when fostered by people who call themselves christians, are incorrect.
          Of course his is 100% correct.

      • Pofarmer

        Would you move somewhere without a Mormon tabernacle?

        • JohnH2

          tabernacle?

          Do you mean temple or chapel? I prefer living somewhere within five hours or so of a temple, which at this point includes most of the US and a large part of the rest of the Americas and Europe. Living within half an hour of a place where the church meets (which may or may not be a chapel) is also much nicer than having to drive further each sunday, especially as branch presidents and bishops in such areas usually choose to start church at 9 am. By my answer it should be obvious that I have lived in such places previously.

        • Pofarmer

          So, let me get this correct. You would drive 5 hours to church.?

    • MNb

      Weird. In The Netherlands it’s usually the protestants who are big on “personal relationship”. Catholics are more on rituals.

      • 90Lew90

        Don’t get me wrong, it’s very heavy on ritual too, but in the sermonising, there’s a lot of “our relationship with God” stuff. “And we ask God…” etc. Lots of that kind of language.

        • Pofarmer

          Our Lord Jesus Christ, Our Lord Jesus Christ, Our Lord Jesus Christ. They are also sure to point out how subserviant and flawed you are. The whole thing is rife througb with fear and self doubt.

        • 90Lew90

          They’ve also got the idea of mantra nailed with everyone reciting their bits in mass in unison. That can have quite a deep effect. Ol’ Pope Benny wanted to reinstate the Latin mass because it works even better if you don’t know what you’re saying. Wily old fox that he was.

        • Pofarmer

          Yep, the whole mass front to back is designed to elicit an emotional response. Give a good ole sermon telling how bad you are, and then “Lord, we are not worthy to receive you, but say the word and we shall be healed.” It’s an interesting study in theater.

      • Eli

        Yeah, I’m American and former Catholic, and the whole “personal relationship with Jesus” seemed very much a Protestant thing, particularly since Catholics are more about needing the structure and religious hierarchy of the church to understand God, not something you can really do on your own. They don’t even emphasis reading the Bible yourself the way Protestants seem to, and I remember a distinctly stronger focus on Jesus in the predominantly Protestant communities I’ve lived in.

  • CayuseWarrior

    If you want to be a successful Anti-Christ you should at least know the source of your hatred.

    Christ did not teach you to have a relationship with him. He like you was born of flesh and became Spirit as he taught others to become Spirit. It is not a relationship to two entities it is a transcending of you EGO SELF (flesh) consciousness) to Spiritual (Christ) Consciousness. Just like he did not teach you to worship GOD the burning Bush of MOSES. But by becoming the Son of GOD with behavior you become GOD Conscious.

    Like Krishna and Buddha, Christ had 3 simple behavior steps to become Christ (Son of GOD or a CHRISTIAN)

    1) Deny yourself (physical material body (flesh) consciousness
    2) Pick up your Cross Daily (spiritual vocation)
    3) Follow ME (to Christ Consciousness or being the Son of GOD)

    Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34 and Luke 9:23; John 1: 12-13 and Romans 8:14

    You all must have trouble with Shakespeare too.

    • 90Lew90

      Shakespeare is more worthwhile. I have trouble with mumbo-jumbo, a prime example of which you’ve just given.

      • CayuseWarrior

        I bet you did not even know Christ fulfilled the Law of Moses and worship with behavior, instead of belief, of how to be a Christian? Care to be honest? Sharing begins with a common language, meaning of words and honesty. Nothing says I have to agree with others.

        Another of the most misquoted concepts of Christ is how GOD is not a being or personal GOD at all and Heaven is not a material place, but a Consciousness.

        Matthew 5:

        45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

        • TheSquirrel

          Quoting the bible does nothing except establish a basis for your belief. You will have to do much work to convince that the bible is a description of reality. Can you demonstrate that the stories of Jesus are all literal and true?

        • 90Lew90

          I’m reading The Iliad at the moment. Though how, pray tell dear language lover, does one misquote a concept? I don’t think Buddha would have approved of Jesus’s shenanigans with the fig tree or the herd of swine. Nor indeed his antics at the temple. But whatever. Blow smoke up your ass all you like. Don’t accuse me of hating you for it, and neither moralise at me for how I choose to live my life. That’s my main beef with Christians, second to the anti-intellectualism of their religion and its cheapening and degrading of the human condition of being, despite pretending that human life is what Christians value above all else.

        • jaxative

          Yet again, what are you trying (badly) to get across here? You’re incoherence and lack of rationale almost puts you in the troll category.

        • MNb

          Yeah, I know christ was supposed to fulfill the Law of Moses. So what? Moses never existed, his laws were man made and Jesus was not divine. Is that “common language, meaning of words and honesty” enough for you?

        • CayuseWarrior

          He taught you like him born of flesh to become Spirit. You seem not to have learned the lesson. Living for flesh was one of the choices he gave. If it fits wear it. You seem to do well with Brain Function.

          We all have brain function, but not 2 of us do the same thing with our brain function. Why Christ taught each person and not a congregation, church or gourp of atheist.

          Souls do not enter and leave the body with others. It is an individual experience. Call Existence. A single journey.

          “You got to walk the lonesome highway, you got to walk it by yourself. Cause no body, not even Jesus, can walk it for you, you got to walk it by yourself. It is you, not him, they. You are not the body or the mind. You are the soul that exists before, during and after. It is your existence.

          That instinct in every cell to SURVIVE. Not to be the fittest or Mutation. It is you

        • ZenDruid

          So is English your second or third language?

        • 90Lew90

          Excuse me mon ami, but you swing by here and accuse everyone of “hating” your god, a god most of us don’t believe exists. Then, having demonstrated that you haven’t the capacity of mind to realise the illogic of your charge, you suggest that it is we who are probably ignorant and a bit stupid, by wondering rhetorically if we also have a problem understanding Shakespeare. So I take an interest in what you have to say and read a few of your postings. What do I find? A pile of incoherent, illiterate, frankly raving mad ramblings.

          Let’s get off the religion stuff for a minute. What’s your favourite Shakespeare play and why? I’m all ears.

          [Edit: It needn't even be a play. What's your favourite Shakespeare work and why?]

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Less theology and more arguments, please. If you’re arguing that God exists, give us evidence for this remarkable claim. The atheists here don’t accept it.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Prove there is no GOD. But then again you keep trying to say GOD is a BEING. How can he exist without a boyd

          Hard headed. How about a little Carl Sagan

          On atheism, Sagan commented in 1981:

          An atheist is someone who is certain that God does not exist, someone who has compelling evidence against the existence of God. I know of no such compelling evidence. Because God can be relegated to remote times and places and to ultimate causes, we would have to know a great deal more about the universe than we do now to be sure that no such God exists. To be certain of the existence of God and to be certain of the nonexistence of God seem to me to be the confident extremes in a subject so riddled with doubt and uncertainty as to inspire very little confidence indeed.[55]

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I have no proof that God doesn’t exist. Why–do you think I need any?

        • CayuseWarrior

          DAH?

          Bob Seidensticker Mod CayuseWarrior • 13 hours ago

          Less theology and more arguments, please. If you’re arguing that God exists, give us evidence for this remarkable claim. The atheists here don’t accept it.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          So then you don’t have any arguments for the truth of Christianity.

          OK. What’s your goal in hanging around here then? Just a chance to preach your theology?

        • CayuseWarrior

          Where do you come from. My hypothesis that you should have discussed instead of being PERSONAL. As you site advertises to be…..

          “Christ did not teach you to have a relationship with him. He like you was born of flesh and became Spirit as he taught others to become Spirit.

        • SuperMark

          Okay you win if the bible is true then “jesus was born of the flesh and became spirit” so why is the bible true?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          If pointing out that you have no arguments is a personal attack, you need a thicker skin.

          Yes or no: do you have intelligible arguments that support the claim that God exists?

        • SuperMark

          are you really so delusional that you cannot see you are the one being hateful and inciting people to respond in kind???

        • CayuseWarrior

          There is nothing hateful about choosing between Flesh and Spirit. It is a personal choice and why Christ, Buddha, and Krishna taught to each person and not a church, congregation, group or blog?

          What hwa is you problem that makes you so insecure with my statement. You cannot deal with becoming Christ, instead of worshiping him?

        • SuperMark

          I accept your statement i’m not saying that your beliefs are hateful, i’m saying you are hateful and a bigot.

          i do not and will never worship your jesus spirit or flesh, he was a monster. i would have crucified him myself if i had the chance.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Hate full is making a hypothesis that you do not know the source of your disbelief. In fact 180 in the wrong direction.

          What a bunch of woker ants.

        • SuperMark

          wow dude just wow. i can honestly say you are the most delusional person i’ve ever come into contact with.

        • SuperMark

          i don’t believe in jesus because he was a false profit. it has nothing to do with anything you have said. so what even if every christian on earth believed exactly how you do i would still not believe in any of it.

        • SuperMark

          Atheism is my opinion, agnosticism is what i believe.

        • aar9n

          Classic. When asked for evidence, the theist responds: Prove there isn’t!

          The burden of proof rests upon you, not us.

        • SuperMark

          yeah this guy must be new to trying to defend or even define his faith.

        • MNb

          You ask, I provide.
          1) Interacting with our material reality requires material means. We agree that god doesn’t have a body, ie is immaterial. Hence he doesn’t have the means to interact with your material reality.
          2) Assuming that there is an immaterial reality (that’s where your “spirits” remain) believers haven’t succeeded in developing a reliable methodology to distinghuish correct claims from incorrect claims about that immaterial reality.
          Now it’s your turn. Prove there is a god.

        • CayuseWarrior

          1. We agree with Christ on that one
          2. Not true. You cannot think of the Spiritual World as an alternative reality. It is the only reality. The physical material world is a duality of reality.

          Only through learning to control you Energy within and without of the body, Control your breath control you single pointed thought and deep meditation can you transcent the body and mind. to the Cosmic Consciousness of no thought or physical experience. It is sitting in perfect JOY and BLISS with no thought, desire, wants, emotions or sense pleasure. It is objective observation of Cosmic Consciousness. beyond duality of happy/sad etc.

        • 90Lew90

          In all sincerity, peace be upon you. I’ve enjoyed your contributions here, you mad ol’ fucker. (Please do excuse my swearing, but we do it a lot where I’m from.) I’m done. I’d say if we met we’d probably get along quite well. I keep trying to “hear” your accent, and the closest I can come up with is that character from Kill Bill, Esteban Vihaio. Great voice. Anyway, if your story is true, I hope you get a new heart, and if you do, let us know, and I’ll raise a tequila to your health. In the meantime, stop flogging the dead horse. Spank the monkey instead or something. Salud!

        • MNb

          Well, if the immaterial reality is the only reality I wonder who is typing your comments.

          “The physical material world is a duality of reality.”
          Nice how you contradict yourself. Duality means two – ie the immaterial reality is an alternative reality indeed.

          “Control your breath control you single pointed thought”
          All physical activities and you just agreed that the immaterial world can’t have impact on the our material reality …..

        • CayuseWarrior

          Imagine if I never got my Heart Transplant, ate, slept etc.

          But “Be in the World, but not of the World”

          Means what to you in Shakespeare?

          Now if you observe a calm person. Are they breathing hard. If you control your breath you become calm. It works for sex too. Krishna at 13 put smiles on all the maiden’s and not one had negative karma. But if you cannot control you own body and mind, how can you be the best you can be.

          If you cannot go beyond the body and mind. To that perfect stillness of no desires, wants, emotions and sense pleasures. How do you know the real you beyond experience, memory, name, nation state, earth Universe

        • MNb

          The real me is my body and my mind, the latter understood as an integral part of my body.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Why when I say body it is the mind and body. But when I talk of you. It is body, mind and soul.

          You are more than just the body and mind. You are what you did with body and mind and what you have become.

          Otherwise there would be no evolution of yourself. You are more than an embryo, toddler, school boy, doctor, etc.

          You are what you have been and what you will be. The body and mind but what you do with the body and mind.

          Your soul

        • CayuseWarrior

          It is calling living for flesh.

          If you do not transcend you ego self. You live in you wants, desires, emotions, sense pleasures and experience dreven form outside you very existence

          Only through perfection of body, mind can you reach the inner soul of you being.

          Why Christ taught behavior and not worship

        • MNb

          There is no inner soul of being. Not for me, not for you.

        • CayuseWarrior

          LOL… Objective Observation of Nature is Science you fool

        • MNb

          Objective observation of nature is something you are not capable of, or you would not dismiss the hypothesis of the Multiverse so easily, you ugly liar.
          Inner soul of being is not part of nature, you ignorant.

        • aar9n

          I loved this. Thank you.

        • MNb

          “You seem not to have learned the lesson.”
          Finally you got something right. Jesus taught something that was incorrect.

          “You seem to do well with Brain Function.”
          Thank you. It is all I need indeed.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Word shifter and a phrase twister. Enjoy. You obviously do not want to discuss only attack and judge. And watch you don’t even know what nasty or self conceited is.

        • MNb

          Which word exactly did I shift and which phrase did I twist?
          I do want to discuss you, but you don’t offer much to discuss. Most of the time I hardly understand what you mean. You talk a lot about honesty etc. but then offer this:

          “you don’t even know what nasty or self conceited is.”
          Why do you say I don’t even know that?
          Finally I wrote that you were right. Indeed, I don’t have learned Jesus’ lesson – exactly like you wrote – and next tell you why: he taught something incorrect. Moreover I confirmed that I do well with Brain Function – exactly like you wrote. Again: how is that wordshifting and phrase twisting? Don’t you like it when I say you’re right?

        • CayuseWarrior

          How would I know. You attacked with no discussion?

          “”You seem not to have learned the lesson.”

          Finally you got something right. Jesus taught something that was incorrect.

          “You seem to do well with Brain Function.”
          Thank you. It is all I need indeed.”

          Regurgitating memorized bunk is not discussion at all. Nor is the feeling of superiority or the you waist smell better.

          My discussion point were

          1) Brain Function v. what you do with Brian Function
          2) Living in the Consciousness of Flesh or the Consciousness of Spirit. Being v. Reaction to you experince and you personal Human Condition

        • MNb

          1) What I do with Brain Function: thinking and feeling.
          2) I’m living in the Consciousness of Flesh. Spirit is rubbish.
          I didn’t attack you. I would like to attack you, you can trust me on that, but you hardly offer anything to attack.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Attack. Discussion is what it is about. Sharing without being afraid.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I do want to discuss you, but you don’t offer much to discuss

          I fear that discussing with “The Warrior” will be like fighting Jell-O.

      • CayuseWarrior

        Your perspective on a Religious BLOG is phony. Go find Shakespeare.Blogs. Don’t pretend to know Christ and be Anti-Christ when you have not red the WORD. Or accept the label

        • 90Lew90

          I have my King James right beside me here. And in case you’ve forgotten, it was you who brought up Shakespeare, ol’ buddy, ol’ pal.

        • CayuseWarrior

          So your discussion from my Original Hypothesis”

          “Christ did not teach you to have a relationship with him. He like you was born of flesh and became Spirit as he taught others to become Spirit”

          Your DISCUSSION? Or Questions?

        • SuperMark

          What do you want to discuss? you seem to agree with Bob that a “personal relationship” with jesus is complete BS. We’re not here to argue theology we don’t even believe that your god exists so what is there to argue about? how do you expect non-believers do argue if jesus was god or man?

        • 90Lew90

          It seems your reading of Jesus’ intention is summed up better by him in John 17:20-26. The thing is, I neither believe in the divinity of Jesus, nor in his god. As far as I’m concerned, there isn’t much more to discuss. You seem to be pushing the line that the only reason we’re atheists is that we haven’t properly understood what Jesus’ intentions were. That’s condescending. The point that you miss is that I don’t believe. No matter what formulation of it you push my way, I don’t buy it. Allow that I may have given some thought to this in order to arrive at my conclusion. Furthermore, there is practically nothing that Christianity, mystical or otherwise, has in common with the Eastern traditions you occasionally mention. They are chalk and cheese. The latter, though I don’t believe the mysticisms which have inevitably grown up around them either, are by far superior to the Abrahamic offerings.

        • SuperMark

          what does it matter? what does jesus being a spirit have to do with anything, seems like an unimportant nuance. so only people who believe what you believe go to heaven?

        • aar9n

          Jesus was a palenstinean Jew who was executed under the Romans. He probably taught that the end of the world was near, and maybe to be nice to each other and shit. It’s unlikely that Jesus actually said most of what you quote him as saying.

        • MNb

          I don’t frigging care what Jesus taught or not taught. He lived 2000 years ago and since then there have been better teachers. I hope there will be better teachers in the 40st Century as well. I have told you this before, but you didn’t react. Must I conclude that you are not interested in a discussion?

        • CayuseWarrior

          I had good teacher because I selected the ones that were the best. My freshman adviser taught you to get a Harvard degree by picking you teacher carefully.

          Not sure teaching you can teach yourself out of this Modern Times. We are over populating the earth and limited resource are owned by a few and unlimited wants and desires are running out of control.

          Why Christ taught you to live not for the human condition. But for freeing yourself form struggling for the betterment of the human condition.

        • hector_jones

          It’s nice that you think you had a good teacher. I think you need to find an even better lawyer and sue your teacher.

        • CayuseWarrior

          He taught you to choose between flesh and Spirit 2000 years ago. And look at you. You chose flesh consciousness. Sound like he did well to me

        • CayuseWarrior

          No simply go away. You can not believe in GOD Being. Simply do not say Christ did, he did not. MY POINT

        • CayuseWarrior

          So you are denying Romans 8, John 1: 12-13, Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, and Luke 9:23. That is all I am saying

          Crack open you King James and tell me Christ did not teach Behavior not Worship and Belief. That was the Jews and Moses.

        • 90Lew90

          You might have more success with a sandwich board.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Success. There is no win I seek. Just looking to what is here. Jerks doing the circle Jerk, coming together. And calling it a higher ground

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Yeah, it’s just a circle jerk around here.

          Y’know what? You’re too good for this blog. It’s a waste of your time. You ought to leave.

        • SuperMark

          wow if becoming a spirit like jesus means being like you leave me out.

        • SuperMark

          you are refusing to answer anyone’s questions. what does it matter if jesus was a person or a spirit?

    • TheSquirrel

      It’s always hatred with you people. Where was his hatred? A hint: Dismissing your deeply held beliefs is not sufficient to presume hatred.

      • CayuseWarrior

        Forgive me for not being a Word Shifter. I can only communicate with those of like kind who respect the meaning of words. It is the basis of communication. How one know a Spade is a Spade.

        Hatred -Hatred (or hate) is a deep and emotional extreme dislike that can be directed against individuals, entities, objects, or ideas. Hatred is often associated with feelings of anger and a disposition towards hostility. Commonly held moral rules, such as the Golden Rule, oppose hatred towards others.

        Now if you think that does not describes aa Atheist (dislike for GOD) or a Churchianist love of GOD. 2 sides of the same coin.

        Me? I am he. Why would I hate someone for not being he. It is a personal choice. Now some weak person attacking me with some weak scenario, of course I can hate them. My cross is not to save YOU, but save (make aware) myself. I am a seeker of truth. Not a ender of poverty or war. But I sure can complain about the dirty sobs that cause all those things. My hate

        • 90Lew90

          For someone who claims to respect the language, you do a mean job of mangling it.

        • CayuseWarrior

          I was taught to re-read my Formal papers 10 times.

          This is not a formal paper and you do not have to have formal english to communicate.

          If you choose to communicate. I never could write perfect

          AND NEITHER CAN YOU. Unless you simply are attacking with cheap shots and not sharing you thoughts or understanding. If you listen. Of course I could write more perfect. But content the purpose, not writing or spelling

        • 90Lew90

          Basic English would suffice.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Discussing my point is a requirement. Your grading of english or spelling is off the wall and unresponsive

          “Christ did not teach you to have a relationship with him. He like you was born of flesh and became Spirit as he taught others to become Spirit”

        • SuperMark

          I’m trying to address your “hypothesis” but you seem to be ignoring me please explain to me why you think an atheists would want to discuss theology. You have to start with more basic ideas. We don’t even believe that your god exists so why would we address nuances like the one you bring up?

        • SuperMark

          Okay i’ll take your word for it, jesus was a spirit and we should become spirits too. So why should i believe that jesus even existed?

        • 90Lew90

          “Your grading of english or spelling is off the wall and unresponsive”

          By “off the wall” I take it you think I’m wrong about the quality of your English? Strange, because for 16 years now some very reputable newspapers have been paying me good money to edit copy for them. Newspapers get a lot of letters from nutcases. We call them green-ink letters. Sometimes we keep the nuttier ones for a giggle, but usually they go straight in the bin. Suffice it to say, the waste basket would be rapidly filling up with the musings of CayuseWarrior.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Remember the wise words of the sage: “Comprehension is on the reader. Not the speaker.”

          Copy editors like you are dinosaurs, I’m afraid.

        • 90Lew90

          Don’t I know it, that’s why I’m back at university aiming for a career change. (It’s not nearly as much fun second time around.)

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Sounds like a challenge. I can see how times are changing (though not because of NuttyWarrior’s interpretation of reality).

          If I may ask, what field are you going into?

        • 90Lew90

          I’m studying law, but not necessarily with a view to actually becoming a lawyer. I’m not entirely sure where I’ll go with it. I didn’t want to work in any other media (the media stink). If anything I might go down the human rights route with a view to working for aid agencies. That would give me an opportunity to leave Ireland again. I’m pretty desperate to get off this island asap! I’d far rather be studying some subject from the humanities, but that doesn’t really get you anywhere, so I plumped for a professional degree and was told law would probably suit me. So here I am.

        • MNb

          Is Ireland that bad at the moment?

        • 90Lew90

          I’m in Northern Ireland, living between Belfast and a small town in Co Derry. There is still low-level trouble, particularly at this time of year, the marching season, when Orangemen come out and like to march through catholic areas. If I’m in Belfast, this is basically five minutes round the corner from where I live: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-H6bc__DU8 This is a parade that’s been stopped from going passed catholic residents. This goes on every July. But it’s not so much that (which is a depressing grind) as that I lived in London for ten years and travelled a lot, regularly. This place is dull. It’s politics are dull and are an endless game of sectarian Ping-Pong, and culturally it’s pretty poor too. I’ve been back here seven years now and just find myself thinking, “There’s more to life!” So I’m keen to get out into the world a bit again while I’m still relatively young. Don’t get me wrong about this place though, it’s great for a visit. Maybe just not around July 12!

        • 90Lew90

          Your silence on the law thing makes me wonder if I’m going over even farther to the Dark Side (excuse the Star Trek reference!). It’s not easy, but as you said, the dinosaurs died out and I had to get out of the Jurassic period. It’s pretty amazing how quickly the Internet shook the newspaper industry. When I trained at the Sunday Times in London in 1997, there was one stand-alone computer in the entire office with internet access. We used to get told off if it was left on overnight. Quite something…

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          The currency here is good evidence and solid arguments. You have neither.

          You’ve got a handful of Monopoly money, and you wonder why you’re not well received?

        • TheSquirrel

          I’m going to repeat myself, your post might have a greater impact if it were comprehensible.
          You did not sufficiently answer my question. Where is the hate? You (poorly) defined the word and then made an assertion with no defense of said assertion.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Comprehension is on the reader. Not the speaker.

          The assertion I made was Christ taught Behavior. He fulfilled the Jewish and Moses Law of Worship and Believe with Righteousness (right action of good over evil) What Atheist would call self moralism with no belief in GOD

          The defense are the words (WORED of GOD) of the New Testament (King James Version only)

        • 90Lew90

          It is usually incumbent on the communicator to be comprehensible so as to facilitate his readers’ comprehension. You are almost completely incomprehensible. I don’t know if you think you’re being profound or something, but it comes across as simple illiteracy.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Comprehension is on the reader. Not the speaker.

          Hilarious!

          My career advice: open the Cayuse Warrior School of Reeding and Comprehenshun.

          Or maybe approach it from the other side with the philosophy that you get to say whatever stream of consciousness pops into your mind, and then you get to be annoyed when anyone doesn’t immediately convert to your view of things. You’ll put editors out of business–what fun!

        • TheSquirrel

          If the writer is incomprehensible, there is not much the reader can do, now is there?
          Still not seeing a response to my pointed question.

        • aar9n

          “Comprehension is on the reader”. I wish I would have tried that in English class!

        • TheSquirrel

          Atheists DISBELIEVE in god. Disbelief (and I’m repeating myself again here) is not sufficient for hatred.
          Fail.

        • CayuseWarrior

          You miss my point. Atheist say Christians believe in a GOD BEING. I said that is an Oxymoron. Churchinanist might believe that. Christians think GOD is a Spirit not a BEING

          How hare is that to understand my point. You do not have to agree with it.

          But show me you can comprehend…..

        • 90Lew90

          Yes, yes. I get you. And…?

        • TheSquirrel

          No, you are dodging my point. Atheists don’t say shit about what Christians believe, atheists disbelieve in god. Period. Anything else you are saying is avoiding the question I raised in favor of repeating your (poorly) structured talking points.
          How “hare” is it to understand? Well, not that “hare”, really, but it is a tad annoying. You can read what you write before you post it, you know. Might help.
          Edit: I made a spelling error! I fixed it with the edit option! Isn’t that magical!!!

        • CayuseWarrior

          A scientist does not acknowledge the bible in his discoveries of nature. Atheist NON-BELIEVE is directly related to what they claim Churches believe.

          I simply thing if you do not know what Christ taught you swing at the air. Most churches have twisted the teaching. From Behavior to Worship

          “That All Folks”

        • InDogITrust

          ” Most churches have twisted the teaching. From Behavior to Worship”
          I agree. I also agree that if you don’t understand something, you’re swinging at air.
          But you’re swinging at air here because you don’t understand atheism, which you appear to think is just disbelief in what is taught in Christian churches. However, that’s not atheism. Atheists do not merely disbelieve what so-called Christian churches teach. We don’t believe what any religion says about a diety or dieties. We do not believe there is any such thing or being or existence that is or can be called a diety.
          If an atheist were just someone who disbelieves what Christian churches teach, then every Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, pagan, everyone is an atheist.

        • TheSquirrel

          Gosh, you make it sound like Atheists only have an opinion on xtianity, when in fact, atheism (again I repeat myself. You’re very bad at this) atheism rejects ALL gods, and couldn’t care less what “real” xtians believe.
          No True Scotsman, by the way. Who made you the authority on who “real” christians are anyway?
          If I may be so bold as to ask, is english your first language, and if so, are you a very well read eight year old?

        • TheSquirrel

          Since the bible has little of value to say about nature (excepting seriously debunked ideas like the earth being flat or bats being birds), it seems only natural that scientists wouldn’t acknowledge the bible in their discoveries of nature. The bible has nothing to do with their discoveries.

        • MNb

          Please tell me more! What discoveries did the Bible make in nature? I’m not aware of any, frankly.
          I’ll tell you a little secret. My atheist non-belief is also directly to what you claim you believe.

        • CayuseWarrior

          1. Christ discovered you should be in the world but not of the world. To escape the Human Condition that Desires/Wants, Emotions and Sense Pleasure lead to Happy/Sad, Love/Hate, Secure/Insecure
          2. Christ discovered behavior not worship or belief lead to peace, Joy and Bliss Being Human, not by being a better Human
          3. Christ discovered love your enemies not an eye for an eye
          4. Christ discovered to be Christ (Christian) you should 1) Deny Yourself, 2) Pick up you Cross daily and 3) Follow Me
          5. Christ discovered you should be the best you can be in body, mind and soul, not comparing yourself to others or what you accumulate on earth.

          I believe I can because I do. Not concerned whether you do or not. Each make our own journey and our own pace and live for Flesh or Spirit

        • SuperMark

          i just figured it out, Mr. CW has a bad case of “no true Scotsman” yes Atheists think that christians believe in a “God Being” because that’s what they believe. However, Mr. CW here says that if you don’t believe like him you are not a true christian. Very convenient.

        • CayuseWarrior

          John 1: LOL

          18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

        • SuperMark

          umm that’s talking about god not jebus

        • InDogITrust

          I think that’s exactly what CayuseWarrior is saying. He seems to believe some form of mystic gnostism, and that all the people who don’t believe the same but are calling themselves “Christian” are wrong.
          His problem is, this post isn’t addressing the theological correctness of seeking a personal relationship with Christ, it’s saying that those “Christians” don’t have such a relationship.
          That and he doesn’t seem to understand what atheism is.

        • MNb

          Atheist me says that christians believe in what they tell me they believe in. I don’t make premature assumptions like you do.

        • CayuseWarrior

          I see nothing in the New Testament that say GOD is a BEING at all. Yet atheist accuse Christians of believing and worshiping a GOD BEING

          That was my point. Someone is wrong. And I am not talking truth her, but was is written in King James Version of the New Testament.

          It is like making false statement about Einstein theory of relativity or Shakespeare’s Hamlet.

          And look how you all attacked me. Heeeee Haaaaaah

        • aar9n

          Lucky for us, the majority of Christians have creeds telling us exactly what they believe. We don’t care that you don’t think those are true Christians, and we aren’t going to start calling them “churchiananists” just because of you.

          Spirits do not exist.

        • jaxative

          That whole statement make absolutely NO sense. A literal display of nonsense. Even from the very start, who is this Word Shifter that you name? And who would call their child that anyway? Atheists neither like nor dislike a god that they don’t believe exists.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Word Shifters are either party who cannot gain 2/3 of Congress or State Legislature to change laws democratically so they cheat and deny democracy and justice (fair and equal)

          That being said, Only Atheist and Churchianitst believe GOD is a BEING. True, Atheist do not worship a GOD BEING, but the perpetuate the imagination the Christ believed in a GOD BEING is so false.

          GOD, the father, the son and the Holey Ghost being the same spirit cannot be the same body. The same Spirit. So if you want to sound intelligent realize Jesus did not worship or teach others to worship a GOD. He taught them to be the son of GOD (symbolically speaking) because in the physical world sons become fathers. It is not really that hard to comprehend. If not for all those atheist and even church goers who do not understand.

          John 1: (KJV)
          12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

          13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

        • 90Lew90

          You said: “You all must have trouble with Shakespeare too.”
          I wonder what in the hell you make of Shakespeare’s language when you appear to have so much trouble its modern-day equivalent. For that matter, what are you getting from your Bible of choice, the KJV?

          “Cuckoo!” [And no, I have not just returned from Switzerland.]

        • CayuseWarrior

          You are are real nasty moth rfcr. I see you for what you are.

          Care to discuss come back otherwise keep to yourself you got nothing for anyone. Plenty of nasty people already.

          “Judge the Tree by the Fruit it bears”

          I know you cannot comprehend the meaning. But you should try so you are not ruled by the lack of knowledge. And see what others see in you fruit that defines you (Your Tree)

        • Pofarmer

          Geemonelly. Did you find it necesary to come on here and insult people and vomit on this thread.

        • CayuseWarrior

          What? You claim

          “Patheos.com is the premier online destination to engage in the global dialogue about religion and spirituality and to explore and experience the world’s beliefs. Patheos is the website of choice for the millions of people looking for credible and balanced information about religion”

          And I bring up a fact that Atheist and Churchianist (be it Christian, Buddhist or Hindu’s, etc) miss the Teaching of Transcendentalism and mistake it for Worship and Belief

          And you attack me. For what? An honest conversation.

          I also show were Start Trek came form Christ Teaching. No one addressed that. Just that they had moved on to better things.

          I do not think it is me that confuses teaching behavior with worship, belief or memorization.

        • SuperMark

          Really? Your not even going to admit to yourself that you are being combative and insulting? You clearly have some deep seeded anger about this issue. It’s not our fault that your god can’t give us clear doctrine.

        • CayuseWarrior

          You attack me in body and yes I will retaliate against you unprovoked attacks.

          My hypothesis is. And NONE of you spoke to that (these)

          1. Christ did not teach you to have a relationship with him. He like you was born of flesh and became Spirit as he taught others to become Spirit

          The other on a different Blog with same mentality. Was a comment that STAR TREK was directly out of the Teachings of Christ of the DARK SIDE (evil) and Light Side (Jeti)

          Same result. Attacks what you can put you hands on. Not addressing the hypothesis at all.

          Speaking of basics and fundamental critical thinking?

        • SuperMark

          that’s not the point of this article we don’t give a shit what your bible says, all that matters is what the majority of christians believe not an outlier like yourself.

          why do you think atheists want to discuss theology we don’t give a shit if jesus was a man or a spirit.

          do you want to get into who was supposed to take over Muhammad’s mission here on earth. I think it was supposed to be his daughters.

        • aar9n

          Yeah those Jedi in Star Trek come straight from the bible!!!

          Is anyone else enjoying this as much as I am??

        • MNb

          “You attack me in body”
          How grave are your wounds? Have you visited a hospital?

        • CayuseWarrior

          I am sitting on a death bed waiting for a Heart Transplant in a Hospital. It is die or get a heart.

          I had a good life. if I get some young 23 year old heart I will have to go out and what be a Humanist and save the world, feed the poor, end war (saving Obama and Bush) and give every guy all the Thongs they want (saving Slick Willy)

          And if I don’t. I would not trade my life for anyone I know. I have not lived for Mammon, I have all I could ask for, and My Soul Soars like an Eagle daily.

        • hector_jones

          Uh huh.

        • 90Lew90

          If you survive, can I have a thong? I don’t know how good I’d look in it, but I might pass it on. You know, spread the love and end war with skimpy underwear. You could start a thong stall in Kabul.

        • 90Lew90

          Au contraire, mon frère. You came on here with all guns blazing, dishing out pretentious, nonsensical twaddle, interspersed with insults, before you’d even engaged with anyone. It wasn’t the best conversation opener I’ve ever seen.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Bull Crap.

          I said “Christ did not teach you to have a relationship with him. He like you was born of flesh and became Spirit as he taught others to become Spirit”

          And you comment to that…. “engage with anyone”

          No PONCHO…. Address my hypothesis…Period I forgive you misgivings

        • SuperMark

          so you think you have the ability to become spirit in this life? doesn’t sound like christianity at all…

        • CayuseWarrior

          What? Your are saying I have found some hidden version of King James? Hard to put the entire version of the New Testament. So let’s start here.

          Romans 8
          King James Version (KJV)

          4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

          5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

          9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

          10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

          11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

          13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

          14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

          15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

          16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

          .

        • SuperMark

          no dude just no, i don’t care what your bible says. your holy book holds no authority here. the point of this article is that the majority of christians preach a “personal relationship” with jesus. your opinion on the matter doesn’t mean shit. this isn’t about the spirituality of jesus.

        • Ron

          Romans was written by Paul. Here’s what the gospels tell us:

          “And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.” Matthew 28:9

          “Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” Luke 24:39

          “They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.” Luke 24:42-43

          “Jesus answered them, ‘Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ The Jews then said, ‘It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?’ But He was speaking of the temple of His body.” John 2:19

          “Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’” John 20:27

          “Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay.” Acts 2:31

          The above passages leave the distinct impression that Jesus returned from the dead as a physical being.

        • SuperMark

          Ha! great points i think that’s why the catholic church came to the opinion it holds today. but that apparently doesn’t matter to people like Mr. CW here personal revelation is all that matters.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          A good list. But then, in another frame of mind, you could argue that Jesus was not physical–at least not all the time. Like when he disappeared in Emmaus or when he appeared in the closed-door room.

          Of course, I’m not arguing that you’re wrong but that the Bible is contradictory.

        • Ron

          True dat!

        • aar9n

          Actually, scholars think a lot of those verses were written to specifically counter the view that Jesus had a spiritual body when he was resurrected.

        • SuperMark

          you sir are not forgiven. if you were actually reading people’s responses you would see we’ve addressed your pointless hypothesis but you refuse to acknowledge it.

          why don’t you go troll WND, you would fit right in there.

        • CayuseWarrior

          You are welcome in you lack of knowledge. But if you speak untuths I will respond in body, mind and soul. Obviously, you convictions are not based very solidly in a learned form as I expressed. You cannot take it. I can. But I amd done reaction to you unprovoked attacks. Plenty of hate out there. And you all belong to a WE I surely cannot related to. I simply cannot see WE in perfecting you body, mind and soul. Sounds like church to to me. Sounds like group therapy as well. Or as Christ said: Living for flesh

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You have no arguments. Give arguments. Use reason. And keep your theology–it’s a waste of your time and (more importantly) everyone else’s.

        • MNb

          I’d like to see that – you responding in soul. I only use my body and specifically my fingers (when typing) and mouth (when speaking). Living for flesh is good enough for me.

        • CayuseWarrior

          It is a personal choice and if Christ said you should choose. You did. Who am I to say that is not you journey for now. Not mine at all. Don’t ever mistake I escape by body I stand in the Mountains and feel Nature, I ride motorcycles with wind in my face. I go to the Testi Festi Sturgis and Dance Rock Roll and Blue Festivals. i have a soul mate to takes care of me when I am not in a hospital waiting for a heart transplant.

        • MNb

          Don’t worry, nobody here needs you to forgive us.

          “Address my hypothesis”
          That Jesus became spirit? He didn’t.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Must be more than one Christ. Oops I said that. I am he

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Well, yeah, but when you’re inherently correct like “The Warrior,” you just gotta figure that noncomprehending morons like us are inevitable.

        • 90Lew90

          Ummm. Guess so!

        • MNb

          As a non-American I certainly cannot gain 2/3 of Congress or State Legislature, whether cheating or not.

          “Only Atheist …. believe GOD is a BEING.”
          Eh no, actually I don’t believe god is a being.

        • CayuseWarrior

          You think Christians do. MY POINT. Real Christians and Christ did not think GOD is a being either. A spirit over and over and over.

          Be in this world, but not of this world

        • MNb

          I think christians believe what they tell me they believe, DishonestWarrior. I’ll admit that I hardly understand what you believe though. “God is not a being, he is a spirit.” Shrug.

        • aar9n

          Here’s an example of intelligible statements:

          God does not exist.
          Neither do spirits.
          There is no afterlife.
          Jesus was a human like you and me.

        • MNb

          “a deep and emotional extreme dislike”
          I don’t have such a dislike. I just happen to think Jesus was not divine.

        • CayuseWarrior

          So why you assume what you did about me an others. No 2 of us are the same. Like to Atheist are the same existence? Of course not. Jesus did not teach to Masses or a group of worshipers. He taught each to be him.

          Define? Jesus war born of flesh (John 1: 12) he became Christ (John 1: 13). Just like me and you if you wanted too. takes 3 things. 1) Deny yourself, 2) pick up you cross and 3) Follow Me.

          Not much worship in being a Christian, eh! You confuse Churchianity that did not exist in Christ’s teaching to be him.

        • MNb

          I don’t assume anything about you. I begin to wonder though if you understand what you write yourself. I don’t in any case. For one thing I have hardly an idea what churchianity means.
          Let’s begin at the beginning.
          Do you think Jesus was divine? If yes, why?

        • CayuseWarrior

          First keep you nasty conceited self out of this and off of me.

          Divine: being a deity
          Diety: supreme being

          How may time do I have to say there is no GOD Being in Christianity (the WORD of GOD). GOD: the father, the son and holy ghost is the same spirit. Just as I am same spirit or like you worship the physical material world of matter instead. Living in the waking or dream states with naked eyes and objective observations of nature and dreams. Not the Super Conscious state of seeing with the Single Eye of Meditaiton.

          How can the WORD be the a Supreme Being. It has no body or mind. It is pure thought or consciousness. Like feeling endless JOY and BLISS without buidling mounds of cash or other trinkets.

          Still do not know what I am say. “Some will see, but not see”. But I see you….

        • MNb

          Well, well, you’re a DishonestWarrior indeed ….. all about Love and then calls me “nasty conceited”. Good job, DishonestWarrior. What about practicing what you preach?
          I didn’t ask you about god. I asked you about Jesus. Divine or not? Why? No answer? Then I give up trying to make sense of what you write.
          Btw I don’t worship the physical material world of matter instead, DishonestWarrior the WordShifter.

        • CayuseWarrior

          I never used the LOVE stuff. It is humanist that say GOD is love. According to Christ: You love you enemy because he is YOU in Spirit.

          1. GOD shines down on Good and the EVIL and rains on the JUST and UNJUST. Sound to me you are on your own to make right choices (righteousness), not worship

          2. No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

        • 90Lew90

          No. Humanists don’t say god is love. And stop attempting to be poetic.

        • MNb

          “I never used the LOVE stuff.”
          So you’re a liar too. That didn’t take you too long.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I can only communicate with those of like kind who respect the meaning of words. It is the basis of communication.

          How lucky for you to be the one guy who’s got it all figured out. Does Websters come to you to sort out their definitions?

          You’ll have to be patient with us.

        • Greg G.

          “I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.

          Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”

          “But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.

          “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

          “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

          “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”

          Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!”

        • Ron

          Confound, conflate and obfuscate—these are the apologist’s stock in trade.

          “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!” ~W. C. Fields

        • InDogITrust

          “Me? I am he.”
          Whoa! I am I am?
          You’re truly fascinating. You sound like a genuine article gnostic. I’ve never met one before. Please don’t be a Poe; that would be disappointing.

        • TheSquirrel

          The world is such an interesting place, filled with so many different kinds of people! I too would feel my wonder at the universe diminished if this rare specimen turned out to be a Poe…

        • InDogITrust

          I’m loving it because I agree with so much of what he’s saying, that is, the difference between the religion that Jesus taught and the religion about Jesus, but when you add gnostism, I just geek out. And then, Eastern mysticism too, oh man, it’s like I died and went to heaven.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Be in the world, but not of the world

          How much Mammon has any Atheist, Churchianist, Do Gooder taken out of life? WE have Slick Willy, Gates, Buffet with foundation making 100′s of Millions saving the world and giving us all opportunities.

          Why we are in the Mother of Recession while the Rich get richer. Sorry, I think individual right and free choice out way You telling me how to live

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Sorry–I’m not following. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is today worth $37 billion, three times larger than the second-largest U.S. foundation. This is money that Bill put into the foundation and can’t take out. He is inspiring (or shaming) other wealthy entrepreneurs to do the same. Where is the problem, now?

          Bill Gates is a hero. Jesus killed fig trees. Bill Gates will save and improve far, far more lives than Jeebus ever did.

        • InDogITrust

          I’m not telling you how to live, honest. I actually agree with a lot of what you’re saying, or if I don’t believe it, I think you’re closer to Jesus’s original intent than any contemporary church. I’m enjoying everything you’ve written. But maybe you should cool it for a while since you appear to be pissing off Bob and i’d hate for you to get banned.

    • TheSquirrel

      You know, I am constantly impressed, by the variety of contradictory and vague statements in the bible, one can construct so many different viewpoints on the religion. And who among you can say who is right?

      • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

        Uh … CayuseWarrior can say who is right. Was that not clear?

    • MNb

      I am not Anti-Christ. I don’t hate him. I don’t even hate Attila the Hun.

      • 90Lew90

        “I don’t even hate Attila the Hun.” And he was a right bastard!

        • MNb

          That’s what the Romans said. I’m not sure they themselves behaved any better though when conquering a city – or that the crusaders did.

      • CayuseWarrior

        That is an Oxymoron. You do not even believe he existed. Otherwise how could you deny his human wisdom at least.

        That is my point. Because you have not spent any time studying the source of Anti-Chrsit (living for flesh) or Christ (living for spirit) he taught.

        You can read a KJV “red letter”, reading just the “red letter” in about 15 to 20 minuts thumbing through all the pages seeking the “red letters’. Then you would know what the said he said. How else can anyone know what the “black words” mean or which are chruchianity and not Christianity?

        • MNb

          In fact I do think Jesus was historical; I just think he was not divine. I do not think that high of his human wisdom though; I think higher of Franciscus of Assisi.

          “Because you have not spent …..”
          You’re a dishonest person.

        • TheSquirrel

          Going to say this again since you found time to (semi) respond to my question although not to ME, which is a pile of hilarious…and again I repeat… disbelief is NOT sufficient for hatred.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      How would you label your beliefs? They don’t seem conventionally Christian.

      “Hatred” doesn’t describe my position.

      Your tips for how to interact with Jesus are premature. I have to believe he exists first. What arguments do you put forward?

    • Nemo

      You haven’t been paying much attention to modern Christian culture. Even many fundamentalists insist they don’t have a religion, they have a close personal relationship. Personally, I see it as a marketing strategy, and little more.

      • CayuseWarrior

        I only see the misrepresentation of the teaching of Christ by Churches and Atheist.

        Do I think we should ignore the teaching of Christ or just ignore Churchiantiy and Atheism.

        I had to study 50 years of Raja Yoga to even be able to understand Christ Teaching. The hypocrisy of Church 50 years ago and Atheist today I find are both false. With little Behavioral justification, MY POINT. Specifically GOD is not a Being, Heaven is not a Material Place at all

        Truth. What ever that means to day.

        • 90Lew90

          Excuse my raised eyebrows, but for someone who claims to have attained some degree of spiritual enlightenment, you certainly harbour a lot of bile and misanthropy. Something’s badly wrong with this picture.

        • CayuseWarrior

          What part of Christianity is being a wimpy soft Gay loose wrist whiner.

          Choosing to love you Enemies although not An Eye for an Eye. Does not mean you have to sleep with them or accept their Weakness of Spirit or BODY at all.

          You act like make better flesh is not living for flesh itself

          What did Christ say about helping the poor?

          Mark 14:7
          For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

          Matthew 19:21
          Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

          This says nothing about being a HUMANIST the telling the poor what to do. It is giving what you have away (1 time event) and being poor to DENY YOURSELF not end POVERTY

        • 90Lew90

          That’s it. Get it all out. Having all that shit in your system could end up poisoning you, you know? Perhaps you need an enema.

          Love thine enemas as I have loved you.

        • CayuseWarrior

          So, you aint going to eat my waiste with you love or lack there of.

          Love is letting others live their life as they choose as long as they do not hurt others

          Good is not effecting others
          Evil is effecting others like you have a right to USE them or TELL them how to live.

        • SuperMark

          says the bigot

        • TheSquirrel

          https://www.google.com/search?q=waiste&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb
          Did you mean “waist”?
          Love is being able to tell your friend they’re being stupid and that they are wrong.

        • 90Lew90

          “Love is letting others live their life as they choose as long as they do not hurt others”

          Aha. And yet, you (not for the first time in the past 24 hours), see fit to call me, someone you know nothing about, a “wimpy soft Gay loose wrist whiner.” I see, I see.

          For what it’s worth, I think you’ve been afforded rather more respect here than you deserve, despite that you think it’s the other way around, Mr Warrior. I mean, really. You’re completely and utterly risible.

        • pianoman

          Um…again, quoting bible verses is meaningless. Most of us think that book is a garbled mess of nonsense cobbled from illiterate tribesmen.

          Your last paragraph is indecipherable. You’re saying we should be poor to be poor instead of trying to alleviate it from the planet?

        • InDogITrust

          “Your last paragraph is indecipherable. You’re saying we should be poor to be poor instead of trying to alleviate it from the planet?”
          That’s exactly what he’s saying. I have to agree with him (that that’s what Jesus meant), since i think Jesus was an apocalypticist who thought God’s Kingdom on Earth was coming soon.

          In that context Mark 14:7 is puzzling, but my guess is that it’s a later add-on to the story; that Jesus didn’t say it.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Like your farmers feed the world.

          For free and no subsidy, right? Helping the poor

          Man is Self Motivated. He might love his neighbors wife, but beisde what he can take from his fellow man he could care less. So when I hear wise men bearing gifts. You bet

          No wonder Jesus warned people of wolves in sheep clothing.

          Help you brother if you feel like it. Just don’t try to make me pay 10% tidings or fix a Tornado blown house in Tornado Alley. Yet, I may pay as much as $9000 to FEMA for Rich people in NYC staying at Ritz Carlton’s at my expense

          You bet save the world.

        • SuperMark

          dude just stop, no one here wants to hear your crazy ramblings. you have nothing intelligible to contribute to this blog…

        • 90Lew90

          “So when I hear wise men bearing gifts. You bet”

          You gotta love it really. Do wise men wrap their gifts in rustly gift wrap? Do wise men ring bells when they’re bearing gifts? And when you hear them coming, you give us the WORD and we play poker? OK, I’m in.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          CW: You need to begin talking sense or leave.

          Political ramblings are off topic. Your theology is off topic. If you have arguments for the existence of your god, you may present them. Your theology and other tangents aren’t on topic.

          We’ve given you plenty of chances and suggestions. You’ve been warned.

        • MNb

          Oh shit – only now I get that he means “better” when he writes “bet”.

        • InDogITrust

          Yeah. As much as i’m geeking out over his theology, I’m equally entranced by his English. It doesn’t read as poorly schooled English, nor ESL, but more like the gears keep slipping.

        • SuperMark

          wow dude WTF, i guess we can add bigot to your list of personal issues.

        • aar9n

          Woa, thank you. Your inability to write coherent sentences, bible verses, and writing in caps lock has convinced me of the truth. I hearby renounce all gayness and seek to live follow the sprit jesus not the churchity like athiests to attain Spirit. Or something like that.

        • TheSquirrel

          Dude. That was almost spot on! Nice job laying on the incomprehensible! An excellent parody.

        • aar9n

          “Do I think we should ignore the teaching of Christ or just ignore Churchiantiy and Atheism.”

          Not a complete sentence.

          “With little Behavioral justification, MY POINT”

          Not a complete sentence.

        • RichardSRussell

          I only see the misrepresentation of the teaching of Christ by … Atheist.

          Sorry to be the bearer of sad news to you, but there are at least 2 of us, and neither of us uses “Atheist” as a proper name.

        • TheSquirrel

          You need to lower your expectations on this one. He does not seem capable of assimilating even basic rules of grammar.

        • RichardSRussell

          Probably a side effect of the insidious brain parasite that seems to have destroyed his critical-thinking faculties.

        • MNb

          Actually in his case I’m afraid it’s the other way round. He never has developed critical (or for that matter coherent) thinking faculties, hence became religious.

    • evodevo

      Sounds like Gnosticism to me …..

      • CayuseWarrior

        I suppose Romans 8: make a good argument that Flesh or matter is evil and Spirit Good. To encapsulate the Teaching of Christ as Heresy would be VERY JEWISH and explain the material execution of Christ.

        To deny that Jesus did not teach: “Be in the world, but not of the world” would be heresy of the New Testament and the WORD of GOD.

        Churchianity is the teaching of Church, not the teaching of Christ. I suppose can put the MARK of the DEVIL upon the teaching of Christ and Teach the OLD Testament of worship and GOD is a being if you wish. But you are wrong and deny the Deeds and Works of Christ and believe some Fairy Tail that Jesus resurrected instead of his Spirit Christ.

        You are confusing GRACE through Faith v. Deeds and Works of Christ (Jesus and you) and of course the Nicene Creed.

        Both made by the Churches and not Jesus Christ teaching at all.

        Find this in the WORD of GOD.

        I believe in one God,
        the Father Almighty,
        maker of heaven and earth,
        and of all things visible and invisible;

        The WORD is energy, Light, Word, consciousness. NOT a BODY. Light, instinct and Being (not being a being). The spirit of the Universe (Cosmic Consciousness)

        • 90Lew90

          Word up, G.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Sorry that means nothing. I do not assume

        • 90Lew90

          You just don’t geddit.

        • aar9n

          Ladies and gentlemen, I give you….. religion!

        • MNb

          “Flesh or matter is evil and Spirit Good”
          One good reason to never convert to christianity. It teaches self hate. No thanks.

        • CayuseWarrior

          What? Notice Behavior and Pracitce

          Krishna / Pantanjali 8 steps of Yoga
          1. Yama (moral conduct): noninjury to others, truthfulness, nonstealing, continence, and noncovetousness
          2. Niyama (religious observances): purity of body and mind, contentment in all circumstances, self-discipline, self-study (contemplation), and devotion to God and guru
          3. Asana: right posture
          4. Pranayama: control of prana, the subtle life currents in the body
          5. Pratyahara: interiorization through withdrawal of the senses from external objects
          6. Dharana: focused concentration; holding the mind to one thought or object
          7. Dhyana: meditation, absorption in the vast perception of God in one of His infinite aspects — Bliss, Peace, Cosmic Light, Cosmic Sound, Love, Wisdom, etc. — all-pervading throughout the whole universe

          Samadhi: superconscious experience of the oneness of the individualized soul with Cosmic Spirit

          Buddha and 4 Noble Truths
          The First Noble Truth is the existence of suffering.
          The Second Noble Truth is the cause of suffering.
          The Third Noble Truth is the cessation of suffering.
          The Fourth Noble Truth is the Middle Path that leads to the cessation of suffering

          1. Right Knowledge (Views)Wisdom
          2. Right Aspiration (Resolution)
          3. Right Speech
          4. Right Behavior (Action)Ethical Conduct
          5. Right Livelihood
          6. Right EffortMental Discipline
          7. Right Mindfulness8. RightAbsorption (Concentration)

          Christ’s 3 steps to be a Christian throught Right Action (righteousness)
          1. Deny Yourself of the physical material world
          2. Pick up you Cross daily – your spiritual vocation
          3. Follow Me

        • 90Lew90

          Christ’s are pretty poor set against the Eastern crowd. And if you really did spend fifty years doing yoga and following all that guidance, surely your heart would be in pretty good shape.

        • CayuseWarrior

          What? Resurrecion, Samadhi and Nirvana are the same thing?

          Compare the practice. I am a Raja Yogi, but Christ works the same if you practice and transcent you ego self to Spirit

          You seem to think the Flesh is a cure all. I had Miocarditis at 32 in 1977. The doctors were dropping Isadril, Digitalist into my right ventircle. I let the hostbital with a heart the size of a basket ball. I returned 3 month later with a normal heart (size of a fist, with a little miocardopathy and a left bundle block. 30 years late (I had my good life) raise by kid and met my Soul Mate for 30 years

          Now I do not plan on being 20 once again. If I am given a heart so be it. If not. I had a good life.

          If you follow a left Bundle block it gets you right were I am.
          When I had miocarditis I was 160, ran a 100 yrds in 10 sec. Cam out of Basic Training in Tiger Land an E2, Serve 3 years in the Pentagon. Was Awarded and ITT Management Training Program in my Junior year at the UW and refuse it because I want to stop Monopolies and create Equal and Fair Wealth Distribution between Usury and Work.

        • 90Lew90

          “Where’s Bill?”

        • 90Lew90

          What caused your myocarditis out of interest? I’m guessing coke.

        • Greg G.

          Cao Dai is a Vietnamese religion that blends Buddhism and Christianity. One of their patron saints is Victor Hugo.

        • MNb

          “Deny Yourself of the physical material world”
          is just another term for selfhate.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Nope.

          “Be in the world but not of the world”

          “8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

          4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

          5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

          You are what you do. Enjoy.

        • Greg G.

          1. Yama (moral conduct):

          If we want to live in a nice place to live, we should do our part to make it so. We agree on this.

          2. Niyama (religious observances):

          I agree with the non-religious parts.

          3. Asana:

          That’s vague.

          4. Pranayama:

          That’s obscure.

          5. Pratyahara: interiorization through withdrawal of the senses from external objects
          6. Dharana: focused concentration; holding the mind to one thought or object
          7. Dhyana: meditation, absorption in the vast perception of God in one of His infinite aspects — Bliss, Peace, Cosmic Light, Cosmic Sound, Love, Wisdom, etc. — all-pervading throughout the whole universe

          Mental discipline is good but it is not everything in life. You will miss so much that is going on outside your head. “It is like a finger pointing up to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger or you’ll miss all the heavenly glory up above.” –Bruce Lee

          Samadhi: superconscious experience of the oneness of the individualized soul with Cosmic Spirit

          The first time I experienced this, I thought I had connected to the universe and the ultimate truth. I felt so elated I didn’t sleep for two days.

          The second time I experienced this, I experienced more “truths” but I was later able to conclude that some of those insights were wrong. I realized that it was just a mental state. The oneness I felt with the universe was a one-way street. The universe did not feel a oneness with my mind.

          It is a powerful, amazing sensation that seems like it has to be significant in the grand scheme of things. It’s like the first time you fall in love and it seems the universe was made for the two of you to be together.

          Buddha and 4 Noble Truths
          The First Noble Truth is the existence of suffering.
          The Second Noble Truth is the cause of suffering.
          The Third Noble Truth is the cessation of suffering.
          The Fourth Noble Truth is the Middle Path that leads to the cessation of suffering

          I think some renounce joy in order to follow the Middle Path. A cause of suffering can be the loss of the object of joy. We shouldn’t restrict our love for others to reduce the impact on us of their eventual demise. We should enjoy what we can, without interfering with the joy of others, and deal with the loss when the time comes.

          1. Right Knowledge (Views) Wisdom
          2. Right Aspiration (Resolution)

          3. Right Speech
          4. Right Behavior (Action) Ethical Conduct

          5. Right Livelihood
          6. Right Effort Mental Discipline

          7. Right Mindfulness
          8. Right Absorption (Concentration)

          Humanism is Right.

          Christ’s 3 steps to be a Christian throught Right Action (righteousness)
          1. Deny Yourself of the physical material world
          2. Pick up you Cross daily – your spiritual vocation
          3. Follow Me

          The Jesus puppet was made to say many things by many people in the gospels. You can pick out bits to support almost anything. If you can’t find it in the New Testament, you can appeal to the Old Testament to go over Jesus’ head.

        • CayuseWarrior

          3. Asana:

          That’s vague.?

          What? Asana’s are postures to align the skeleton and organs to get maximum blood flow?

          Light on Yoga by B.K.S. Iyengar (Aug 12, 2004)

          ====
          4. Pranayama:

          That’s obscure.?

          What? Pranayama is breath control – obscure?

          Kriya is an advanced Raja Yoga technique of pranayama (life-energy control). Kriya reinforces and revitalizes subtle currents of life energy (prana) in the spine and brain

          ====
          “Don’t concentrate on the finger or you’ll miss all the heavenly glory up above.” –Bruce Lee”

          Your funny….

          “I fear not the man who has practiced 10000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10000 times.”

          ====

          “The first time I experienced this, The second time I experienced this, I realized that it was just a mental state.

          You are like the Jack Ass my granddad said you could lead to water, but you could not make him drink.

          Yet, you think you led your self to water and you don’t drink water. Read SIDHARTHA and you will now you are that which you seek. No some digestion or indisgestio

          ===

          “Humanism is Right.”

          Not at all Krishna, Buddha and Christ like our Forefather did not think YOU, OBAMA, CLINTON’s should tell me what is right. Overweight? Accomplishment. etc.

          Humanist ignore they are driven by Self-Motivation and deceive only themselves if they do not know that.

          Each person finds his journey. If that is flesh or Spirit

          You are what you do. If you worship Cash…You worship cash. If you are these best you can be (body, mind and soul) you have perfected yourself.

          ===

          “The Jesus puppet was made to say many things by many people in the gospels. ”

          You lie…. You did not read, study, analyze… You memorized others works

          “You can pick out bits to support almost anything.

          No you show that I do not speak the truth. So that what I say is not what Shakespeare meant.

          Disagree, but don’t pull you BS justified by what you memorized other say be it Sunday School or an Atheist with a hard on for being Learned or Shakespeare only meant this….

        • Greg G.

          3. Asana:

          That’s vague.?

          What? Asana’s are postures to align the skeleton and organs to get maximum blood flow?

          Light on Yoga by B.K.S. Iyengar (Aug 12, 2004)

          ====
          4. Pranayama:

          That’s obscure.?

          What? Pranayama is breath control – obscure?

          Kriya is an advanced Raja Yoga technique of pranayama (life-energy control). Kriya reinforces and revitalizes subtle currents of life energy (prana) in the spine and brain
          ====

          As originally written it was vague and obscure but now that you put it that way it is woo.

          Read SIDHARTHA and you will now you are that which you seek. No some digestion or indisgestio

          I have read what is attributed to Siddhartha. I agree with the Dalai Lama when he says that where Buddhism and science disagree, Buddhism must change. Like all religions, it should eliminate the need for confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance to maintain itself.

          “Humanism is Right.”

          Not at all Krishna, Buddha and Christ like our Forefather did not think YOU, OBAMA, CLINTON’s should tell me what is right. Overweight? Accomplishment. etc.

          Humanist ignore they are driven by Self-Motivation and deceive only themselves if they do not know that.

          Each person finds his journey. If that is flesh or Spirit

          You are what you do. If you worship Cash…You worship cash. If you are these best you can be (body, mind and soul) you have perfected yourself.

          Thank you for the demonstration that you you don’t have a clue what humanism is. You sound like someone who has only heard it demonized in church.

          “The Jesus puppet was made to say many things by many people in the gospels. ”

          You lie…. You did not read, study, analyze… You memorized others works

          “You can pick out bits to support almost anything.

          No you show that I do not speak the truth. So that what I say is not what Shakespeare meant.

          Disagree, but don’t pull you BS justified by what you memorized other say be it Sunday School or an Atheist with a hard on for being Learned or Shakespeare only meant this….

          J. D. Crossan and J. Hoffman are New Testament Bible scholars who have reconstructed Jesus from the gospels. Crossan thinks Jesus was all about the peace and love verses but not the guy who went about picking arguments with Pharisees and scribes. Hoffman thinks the peace and love stuff had been added but that Jesus had to have been argumentative and the debates Jesus had defined him. Both are qualified experts using the same material but reach polar opposite conclusions.

          You are trying to display a third Jesus of your own creation.

        • CayuseWarrior

          “I have read what is attributed to Siddhartha.”

          I know you are big on memorization. But let me explain Siddhartha. Nothing to attribute. It is a story of the son of a Holy Person in Indian who leaves with his friend to find the Truth. His friends stays with Buddha. He goes on with his search. He gets married at 33 has kids and when a Cobra kills his wife. He takes off seeking his mission again. After a life time of searching he meets a old ferryman who is even more aged than he He finds peace with this ferryman who is seeking nothing and simply existing in peace and when the ferryman dies. Siddharth realizes there was no where to go, he had Nirvana all around him in the beginning, now and in the future. It was everywhere. It is not the seeking, the BEING.

          “You are trying to display a third Jesus of your own creation. ”

          Of course being Learned is not memorizing others. But making the knowledge your own. Especially what makes you unique.

          John 4:24
          King James Version (KJV)

          24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

          Read a “red” letter KJV, but only the “red letters” of the New Testament. Takes about 20 minutes to read what they said HE said the first time. After 3 times you are an expert. Not in theology, but the WORD. Then you can judge for you self what the black letter mean or if they are Christ and Christian.

        • Greg G.

          I don’t memorize much. I started noticing that much of what Paul says about Jesus has OT antecedents, mostly from Isaiah. So I have familiarized myself with the Pauline letters and have been going through Isaiah.

          My wife is Asian and Buddhist so I read up on it while we were dating. I go to the temple occasionally. I don’t understand much of the language but the meal is worth the wait.

          Some of the Buddha stories were as far-fetched as the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. I can’t believe that his followers through the centuries didn’t add the brilliant insights from their own masters. I can’t pretend that any of it is known to come from Siddhartha.

          When I read the red letters, I keep seeing lines that were said by Paul now being attributed to Jesus and lines from the Gospel of Thomas (not the Infancy Gospel). When I read the Godpel of Thomas, I see more lines from Paul and from the deutero-canonical writings. It just doesn’t read like it came from one source.

          “Just shut up and believe it’s all true” doesn’t work for me. It is far more interesting to see what went on in the construction of the ancient writings.

        • CayuseWarrior

          You are not reading the words and comprehending what they say, Leterally, not some fairy God Mother translation.

          What does Jesus mean with

          John 4: 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

          or

          Mark 8: 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

          Nothing to do with PAUL, Jesus Chrsit or the WORD

          Translate this English into English if you can comprehend without some make believe Theological mumble jumble or what some one else said. What is the English, what does it mean. It is called the WORD.

        • aar9n

          I hearby give you the grade F for this incorhent ramble.

          Also I believe the rest of the creed reads has:

          begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father;
          through him all things were made.

      • InDogITrust

        As formed by eastern mysticism. I’m geeking out over this.

    • SuperMark

      Perhaps you are correct: maybe all atheists, myself included, do somehow hate something they don’t even believe exists. But you clearly are very angry that so many people don’t believe that your holy book is the sole source for truth.

      So what’s worse, hatred of a god that may or may not exist or anger a real people who are searching for truth outside of your religious box?

      Also, for future reference don’t quote bible verses to non-believers. We don’t believe your holy book has any authority so its words hold no sway with us.

      • CayuseWarrior

        I am not angry you and I disagree. I am totally disturbed that you do not know the source of knowledge of which you stand on. That Christ believe GOD was a BEING.

        That is clearly in error. So how can you BELIEVE in not BELIEVING and have no BASIS for a GOD BEING. Nothing of anger. My only anger is YOUR unprovoked attacks and my reaction to them. NOT in Spirit of BODY.

        What you think we can converse on the Astral Star of brilliant color formed into Bliss and JOY of OM or the Sound of OM when we cannot even discuss the source of confusion of who and what Christ said and taught.

        So if I say it you believe it more. NO what I quote you do not not only not believe you never new he said it or worse what he mean in the definition of the words he used.

        • 90Lew90

          “NO what I quote you do not not only not believe you never new he said it or worse what he mean in the definition of the words he used.”

          BRILLIANT! I was going to try to parody this stuff but I’m just not up to the job.

        • SuperMark

          you are misconstruing everyone’s comments here, no one said that god has a body? wtf

          i don’t give a shit about what jesus said or didn’t say.

        • CayuseWarrior

          And yes you accuse Christians of thinking the worship some little White Guy sitting on a throw behind Pearling Gates in some Magical Place call heaven.

          That is a 1960 Sunday School definition of what Christ is not. My Point is you are on a blog that sells itself as Universal FAITH. I see no faith here or Truth

        • Greg G.

          My Point is you are on a blog that sells itself as Universal FAITH.

          I think you miss the double-entendre of “CrossExamined”. A cross examination in a court of law asks questions from another angle than the questions that were asked by the side who called the witness. This is not a religious blog so there are few people who consider faith to be a virtue. The Christian religions have made their case about the “cross” and Bob asks more insightful questions that the believers don’t ask.

        • CayuseWarrior

          My point that Christ taught behavior not worship or belief.

          Speak to that…. and quit dancing around the issue

        • 90Lew90

          And your behaviour; it’s Christ-like? Yes? You keep repeating your mantra and demanding it be discussed. When anyone engages with you, you simply repeat your mantra again and demand it be discussed. What I really think you’re after is for people to start agreeing with you, and possibly even looking to you as some sort of authority. You’ll be waiting a while. The point which you refuse to get is that this is an atheist blog. You’re pushing a line that maybe we’re atheist because we don’t share *your* understanding of what it is to be Christian. That’s patronising and condescending. Apart from that, all you’ve posted in the past 24 hours has been completely illiterate, quasi-profound, bullshit.

        • Ron

          How do you know what Christ taught? Were you present during those lectures?

        • TheSquirrel

          …says the guy who has been dodging my question since yesterday…

        • Greg G.

          What book are you reading? Jesus of John 3 was big on belief. Much of the Sermon on the Mount comes from Sirach. You are picking and choosing the parts of the Bible you like.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          “Dancing”? You’ve yet to materialize from your smoke form to actually state anything meaningful.

          I’d ask you to provide arguments, but you’ll just be too embarrassed to admit you don’t have any. Again.

        • Pofarmer

          Weirdest. Thread. Evar

        • MNb

          Teaching stuff like “it’s totally OK to mistreat pigs and pull your eye out if you get horny?” No thanks, not for me.

        • CayuseWarrior

          For Christ Sake Christ took the devil out of some poor creature. He was begged to do so.

          32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

          33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked

        • MNb

          Yes, it’s told that Jesus did. After doing the exorcism he killed off some innocent pigs, something he was not begged to do. So no thanks, not for me.

        • Greg G.

          For Christ Sake Christ took the devil out of some poor creature. He was begged to do so.

          He was not begged to take the demons out. The demon begged to not be tormented and to not be sent out of the country.

          Where did the demons go after the pigs drowned? Why didn’t Jesus just send them there instead of into the pigs?

          A piss-poor example of behavior if you ask me.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Just a fact of the story book. You don’t like it, so?

          What did you want Christ to have a feast and eat pig like you or many do. Pigs dying is like droning women and children or free the public sentiment of nation state murder?

          So what is you point. You want to rewrite the story book. People believe in demons and that they can possess.

          it is not possible that people can be confused between two realities. Sure plenty of case with people confused with in 1 reality. I can only speak to the story book as written

          And this story line was not about abusing pigs. My dad and Granddad raised pigs. They did not abuse pigs or let one animal suffer needlessly.

          I saw my dog beat to death with a hammer by my father to save him from suffering with a broken back. I did not hate my father. He did not kill my dog with a hammer. He save him from pain. I still miss that dog. He and I plaiyed football for hours. He chasing me and knocking me down to take the little football and me doing it back at him.

          Still love them both. Yet neither are in the physical material world. The Spiritual World,

        • Greg G.

          Just a fact of the story book. You don’t like it, so?

          What did you want Christ to have a feast and eat pig like you or many do. Pigs dying is like droning women and children or free the public sentiment of nation state murder?

          Jesus stole the pigs. There were herdsmen who ran to town. The people begged Jesus… to leave.

          So what is you point. You want to rewrite the story book. People believe in demons and that they can possess.

          Yes, it is a fictional story. Mark uses the story of Odysseus and the Cyclops transfigured as Greek writers often did, plus he worked in Isaiah 65:4.

          What would your father and grandfather have done if someone killed 2000 of their hogs and said it was because somebody was possessed by demons? What if he said the demons begged him to let them go into the hogs?

        • CayuseWarrior

          “What would your father and grandfather have done if someone killed 2000 of their hogs”

          Reminds me of 1933 when my granddad could not afford to sell his pigs for $2.39 a pig. When it took him all year and $10.000 to raise them.

          So he made pure Moon Shine and sold it to his friends for $10.00 a gallon and they each made $100 of that $10.00 to feed their families.

          He of course had a 50 gal still that turned over every 3 days. 30 days / 3 = 10 time * 50 or 500 gal a month * 12 months = $60,000 a year.

          He was more of a man than I . He felt if he could do it you too can do it. Unfortunately, everyone want to beat his neighbor instead of working with and for his neighbor.

          Thanks for making me remember my Granddad and how he fed the valley that the FEDS could not

          That also reminds me how my DAD fixed the first TRACTOR (steam) the FEDS subsidized but it broke down and the Fed mechanic was in the Mid West fixing another. So my Dad at 13 got up at 2:00 AM and fixed the Tractor so the group of farmers could finish their Crops.

          Like my Granddad and Dad before me I invented Computer Programming until the Industry did not want Value Added too. Nice to see the world go round and round

          And Humanist, Atheist and Church Goers think the are so EVOLVED. Not sure if that is a personal or a GROUP Therapy issue.

          To me is getting so Old you simply are too tired to beat the odds. But like my Granddad. If he could do it why cannot you….

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You invented computer programming? Wow–that’s a bold claim.

        • CayuseWarrior

          1965 I programmed on a 1401 (4k) computer. The first Matrix or what you would call a spreadsheet.

          It held all the Enlisted and Officer database data (card and tape input) into a Matrix showing all the manual key punch error by each Army Command with in each Continental Command in the world. My room mate a BA from from Ohio State at 19 and a MBA from UCLA at 21 had me build this to prove I deserved to a computer programmer among all these IBM-ers who never even went to basic training. We called it the Manual Error Suspense System (MESS). The purpose was so the Army command could add or subtract to the MESS system to balance for the Joint Chief of Staff reports. LOL

          My next effort was design and program the 100K Lower Mental Score for draftees from 110 to 80 IQ levels.

          That was 1966. Then I went to WSU and developed the 1st ADABAS DB system for the State of WA personnel payroll system. Where I proved to WSU that the revolving funs that state was going to install with this state wide payroll would cost WSU and UW $million in OASI interest and would have to be Budgeted from the state to reach the existing level of Budget in 1972 among other things. Including getting MA BELL breakoff Cellullar companies on their own MSA Software version is less than 3 months. All by myself.

          Invented Business Process Flows, Database Definitions and Application Design in less than 30 days for the Material Management System making 20 Warehouses in to 1 common Warehouse, Project Sourcing, Transportation, etc.

          The most effect of course was taking 5 Cost Processors for DOE that took 30,000 input transactions apiece generating 6 cycles of output of 1.5 million back through generating 1.3 million untll all adders were generated. Took 48 hours to run. All manually processed. So I wrote recursive JCL that read the output in until there was no more output and could run 6 cycles or a unlimited for no reruns and the entire job only took 1 processor and 20 minutes max. Blowing all DOE Billing between subcontractors. Not unlike WSU when they had to write loop into the OS system to their billing programs to keep billing in place till someone could rewrite. Had fun with the system programmers on that one. That was the mainframe. You only got smarter.

          Them enters Microsoft and I was able to add Client Server into PC’s talking to Mainframes. More fun.

          Until Microsoft, Boeing and Oracle had all the Market share of HW, SW and Vendors and Clients with East Indians who could not speak English but IBM could bill them out at $250 and only pay them $20 per hour. So what you want me to work for $20 and not at least $60 per hours.

          When they need my expertise they will call me. Until then I refuse to be a Marketeer like GATES or JOBS or even a Vendor Company.

          In fact I am looking at a Virtual Showroom of European Adventure Bikes that I will make street legal in the US. Market Share high and Labor Cost $0.0

          Happy sailing, look out for the Sharks or the Humanist bringing peace and Love. Christ said:

          Matthew 7:15
          King James Version (KJV)

          15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

          And they call American Christian and Community Organiziers. That is why Programmers I use to work with 30 years ago are Administrators still at the college at $20,000 a month or $240,000 a year. And Professors only make $70,000 and Tuition can make Banks $60,000 a year for each student? And we have yet to talk WAR, TAXES. LOL

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Oh, so this story is recorded in the Bible? Well, why didn’t you say so? It must be actual history then.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Did not Christ die on the Cross to teach man physical material life was not permanent.

          Do you not know matter does not die, It simply changes to another form of matter? That energy cannot be created or destroyed

          And now you want me to address Miracles. I can, but I will not. Reminds me though that Christ said ask that the mountain be moved and the mountain will be move. But when you can do that, you realize there was a purpose for the mountain before you came along and wanted to change it. “First there is a mountain and then there is no mountain, then there is”

          I was speaking to the POINT of how nasty Christ was for making the devil go into PIGS. When the point was he save the person. Who probably sad down and ate a Pig anyway. Whether he ran off a cliff or was shot to death.

          Don’t confuse the Old testament and belief and worship with the New Testament of behavior, deeds, and works. you are what you do not what you believe.

          Of course you must understand the Parables and Symbolism. GOD, the father, son and holy ghost is not flesh and blood. It is spirit. Symbolically the son becomes the father, like the blood relationship. The spirit of the son is the father as well as the Holy Ghost. All 3 do not have a body. Jesus and you had a body. Christ was a consciousness.

          Do people remember a Jesus walking the earth 2000 years ago or was it the exiting book that made them remember? How many time have your read that best seller? Or was it the contents or the WORD not the story.

        • Greg G.

          Did not Christ die on the Cross to teach man physical material life was not permanent.

          No, you are conflating two different religions again. The Bible says Jesus died on the cross for sins, not a Buddhist art performance.

          Don’t confuse the Old testament and belief and worship with the New Testament of behavior, deeds, and works. you are what you do not what you believe.

          But you omit the New Testament belief and worship. You are picking and choosing from the picnic basket of Christianity like a Yogi Bear.

          Of course you must understand the Parables and Symbolism. GOD, the father, son and holy ghost is not flesh and blood. It is spirit. Symbolically the son becomes the father, like the blood relationship. The spirit of the son is the father as well as the Holy Ghost. All 3 do not have a body. Jesus and you had a body. Christ was a consciousness.

          When you say “you must understand”, you mean we must assume you are not as confused as every other religious person who is cosksure of their own beliefs while ignoring all the evidence against their beliefs.

          Do people remember a Jesus walking the earth 2000 years ago or was it the exiting book that made them remember? How many time have your read that best seller? Or was it the contents or the WORD not the story.

          Mark’s gospel is the keystone to the other gospels yet we can see that Mark is so dependent on the literature of the day, there is nothing left to be from oral traditions. The other gospel authors seem to be supplementing Mark by drawing on other literature. Mark appears to base his story around Paul’s Jesus and the apostles mentioned in Galatians. Paul doesn’t say anything about Jesus that doesn’t come from centuries old scripture, mostly Isaiah. Paul doesn’t seem to know anything about a recent Jesus person and he doesn’t think the other apostles did either. Jesus is an illusion that has been used for a puppet for 2000 years.

        • CayuseWarrior

          “No, you are conflating two different religions again. The Bible says Jesus died on the cross for sins” Show me that in the KING JAME VERSION. FACT and Truth

          It does not say that in the New Testament. You are speaking Sunday School and Theology not the WORD at all. Not what is written. How can you make things up. Show the WORD and speak to that. The rest is ATHEISM and Church.

          “But you omit the New Testament belief and worship”

          What? John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

          GOD is SPIRT. Not a BEING… who said that?????

          “When you say “you must understand”, ignoring all the evidence against their beliefs.”

          You read the WORD you interpret the meaning as written or the symbolism and parable it makes.

          You use Sunday School and Atheism that is not in the New Testament or the WORD of GOD.

          You read Shakespeare you do not rewrite Shakespeare as you and Dawkins do.

          “Mark’s gospel is the keystone to the other gospels”

          What? Show me where this is written in KJV. Once again you are taking Sunday School and Dawkins as gospel?? I cannot speak your imagination that is not part of the WORD. I speak to the WORD as written in KJV

        • Greg G.

          “No, you are conflating two different religions again. The Bible says Jesus died on the cross for sins” Show me that in the KING JAME VERSION. FACT and Truth

          It does not say that in the New Testament. You are speaking Sunday School and Theology not the WORD at all. Not what is written. How can you make things up. Show the WORD and speak to that. The rest is ATHEISM and Church.

          1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV)
          3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

          “But you omit the New Testament belief and worship”
          What? John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

          John 3:16 (KJV)
          16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

          “Mark’s gospel is the keystone to the other gospels”
          What? Show me where this is written in KJV. Once again you are taking Sunday School and Dawkins as gospel?? I cannot speak your imagination that is not part of the WORD. I speak to the WORD as written in KJV

          Matthew uses 90% of Mark and half of that is copied verbatim. About two thirds of Luke comes from Mark and much of that is verbatim. John recounts many of the stories from Mark, using the same story-telling techniques. When you compare Mark with the common literature of the day, everything he says Jesus did was done by another character in other literature. Mark is a compilation of that shows it is fiction and the other gospels depend on it, so they are not reliable either.

        • CayuseWarrior

          1 Corinthians 15:3 (KJV) is not Jesus or Christ or the GOSPELs or the WORD of GOD

          It is Church or Churchianity

        • Greg G.

          I like the word “Churchianity” but I would uses it more broadly.

          The Bible has many different religions in it. There is the Pauline version, the pseudo-Pauline version, the Epistle of Hebrews version, Mark’s version, Matthew’s reformed Mark, Luke’s reformed Mark-Matthew version, the Johannine version, the James version, and hints of another version that insisted on circumcision but that may be like James or Hebrews.

          Matthew’s Jesus is all about fulfilling weird OT prophecies and does miracles much quicker than Mark’s Jesus who is reluctant to do signs. Luke’s Jesus doesn’t have a backstory from King Solomon’s conception or Herod’s killing of the innocents. John’s Jesus is all about doing signs.

        • CayuseWarrior

          You are memorizing other’s theology. What is the literal words and what do they mean. Not what someone else say they mean. What do they mean.

          It is absolutely ludicrous to make belief something that is not written. The lets you and I discuss the mean on the words. Not he said, she said or some Churchianity

        • CayuseWarrior

          For Christ Sake you should have sex with you son’s wife or you neighbors wife? Or our Mother or Sister?

          That is being HORNY? Well you did not pass 1) Deny Yourself

          27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

          28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

          29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

          30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

        • 90Lew90

          So did your heart offend you? And now you want the heart of a 23-year-old? What drugs do they have you on? And for that matter, if you really are lying there awaiting at death’s door awaiting a heart transplant (which I do not for one minute believe), do you think that’s because you’re a spiritual being? Or is it because *people* have sought to care for other people, in spite of religious objections to their “interfering in God’s will” or whatever? If you get a new lease of life, who will you thank? Your surgeons? Or “God”?
          (I have to say that nothing infuriates me more than to see some bozo thanking “God” after being wheeled out of an operating theatre where extremely highly skilled people have sweated for hour after hour to save his life, using an aggregate of human knowledge, applied with human concern for another’s wellbeing. That strikes me as a complete impertinence.)

        • MNb

          “whosoever looketh on a woman to lust”
          Woman.
          Not son’s wife.
          Not neighour’s wife.
          Woman.

          Plus.

          Looketh on.
          Not haveth sex.
          Looketh on.

          DishonestWarrior and Word Shifter indeed.

        • aar9n

          As Chris Hitchens pointed out (FSM Bless Him) this verse is advocating thought-crimes. Which shows how Jesus was not the greatest moral teacher ever.

        • TheSquirrel

          Behavior, like having a tantrum at a fruit tree that hasn’t got any fruit on it (out of its season, btw) and killing it.
          Good, moral lessons.

        • CayuseWarrior

          14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

          15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

          16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

          17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

          18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

        • 90Lew90

          Does the fact that the manchineel tree is deadly to humans make it a “bad” tree? Is it an “evil” tree? With our much-vaunted free will, if we were to eat an apple (and it’s fruit does look like a tasty little apple) of that tree, and God didn’t give us a warning, like he did Adam and Eve, and we die, what does that mean? It’s all part of God’s mysterious plan? What about the poisonous moulds that grow on the fruit of “good” apple trees? That’s a double dupe. What does God say then? “Gotcha!”

        • Greg G.

          I mentioned elsewhere that Matthew put Sirach into Jesus’ mouth:

          Sirach 27:6
          Its fruit discloses the cultivation of a tree; so a person’s speech discloses the cultivation of his mind.

        • TheSquirrel

          Really excuses the poor examples he makes. Yep, that’s how that works. Not that you couldn’t find any of that advice from other religions or even secular sources… Nope! Your religion (and your particular interpretation of said religion) is a rare gem, filled with nothing but truth and completely unique…
          That’s sarcasm, by the way.

        • SuperMark

          umm this is the atheist subset of an overall religious blog site called patheos, do you know why they call it that? no one here has faith we are only looking for truth. And where do you get off telling me what i think???

          you do have one thing in common with all of the other christians i’ve met: you are so self-righteous that you think you can know what is in someone else’s heart.

        • 90Lew90

          The old “Pearling Gates”. I’d love to be a fly on the pearling wall when St Peter sees you coming.

        • MNb

          Have you met our very own house mormon JohnH2H? He totally says god is material.

        • SuperMark

          Ha yes! i forgot about him, yet another illustration of how god is not clearly defined in the bible. Mormonism that is.

        • TheNuszAbides

          ew… i can’t wait.

        • SuperMark

          I know what jesus said just as well as you do. It is incredibly arrogant to say i do not know the source of knowledge which i stand on. My world view comes from my own discernment and on the shoulders of intellectual giants that came before me and some that are still with us (thanks for your help Bob). There are more books out there than just the bible (and apparently Shakespeare) you should try to read things outside of your spiritual bubble.

        • aar9n

          What are you on, and can we have some?

        • 90Lew90

          It was a batch of bad acid about 40 years ago. Now he keeps a turtle handy for the odd lick, and instead of corks swinging from his hat he has magic mushrooms, which he occasionally munches. And in his kitchen there’s this particular type of mould…

        • TheSquirrel

          “do not not only not believe” See, it’s shit like this that makes your point confused, and why we make fun of you. It’s supposed to be good natured ribbing intended to encourage you to communicate more effectively, but I’m sorry, that’s just sad. A triple negative? Did you even read this before you posted it? It’s almost like you don’t care.

    • InDogITrust

      “You all must have trouble with Shakespeare too.”
      Actually, I have had a personal relationship with Shakespeare for over 30 years. Well, maybe not “personal”, since he died about 350 years before I was born, but I feel confident in saying that Shakespeare existed and his writings are infinitely more coherent, applicable, and grounded in reality than Jesus’s writings. What’s that? Jesus didn’t write anything? Oh well.

      • CayuseWarrior

        Yep and they said what Shakespeare meant not what he said.

        Does sound familiar. Why you know man is self-motivated. He has no built in inert LOVE for his fellow man. But he like USURY and his neighbor working for him. While he entertains his wife.

        LOL

        • 90Lew90

          *Slaps table* Hahaha! Good one! Go on, givvus another.

        • InDogITrust

          Well, that deserves a response regarding the difference between scripts and religious teachings, which would go off down a dramaturgy vs. theology rabbit hole that would be so far off topic that it makes my head explode.
          Dare I ask if you think William Shakespeare wrote the plays published under his name?

    • RichardSRussell

      You all must have trouble with Shakespeare too.

      Not at all. Nobody whatsoever foolishly believes that the works of Shakespeare are non-fiction, let alone some kind of instruction booklet.

      • CayuseWarrior

        He asked you to make a choice. Do you offer a choice to be a Non-Believer or Believer. Yet, I tell you Christ taught behavior and still offered you a choice to live for flesh or not. You chose flesh. That is fine for me and Christ said the same thing. Enjoy you choice.

        Many call themselves Christians, but that does not make a Christian. A Christian has to be a Christian.

        “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. GOD is the WORD not a person, think, or a place. No body or flesh. Energy and Light the Consciousness of the Universe. Not an intellect on a human being, a human……BE Ing.

        • SuperMark

          wow, you can actually form sentences today. perhaps you should only comment when you are sober.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Maybe you should discuss in stead of judging, critcizing, or correcting english or spelling.

          In conversation with Mommy and Daddy. Do you all right down the conversation so you can correct or condemn the writing and not the condemn

          You may some day bob when you should weave.

        • SuperMark

          In all sincerity is English not your first language? If not you should really let us know, i’m sure people will be more forgiving if that is the case. If you are fluent in English then you are obviously just trolling everyone here so you shouldn’t expect anything but the responses you’ve been given.

        • Greg G.

          He asked you to make a choice. Do you offer a choice to be a Non-Believer or Believer. Yet, I tell you Christ taught behavior and still offered you a choice to live for flesh or not. You chose flesh. That is fine for me and Christ said the same thing. Enjoy you choice.

          Remember that the truth matters. If you make the wrong choice and there is no afterlife, then the Christian choice is the wrong one”

          1 Corinthians 15:19 (KJV)
          19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

        • CayuseWarrior

          “Remember that the truth matters. If you make the wrong choice and there is no afterlife, then the Christian choice is the wrong one”

          You should listen better and know the facts. MY POINT.

          I am a RAJA Yogi. I spend my consciousness in the Super Conscious state. Not like you in the waking state or dream state

          I objectively observe the Astral Star not with you naked eye, but the 3rd Spiritual Eye.

          Notice I do not condemn you for you choice.

        • 90Lew90

          Hello again. Still here! For a guy on his deathbed, you’ve got a lot of energy. Aren’t there other things you’d rather be doing with your time? I know if I were you I wouldn’t be windbagging on here.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Stuck in a Hospital on the cardiology floor, cannot wonder. I am on Milrinone Drip.

          TV, Commenting, staring at 4 corners or 4 wall.

          And what do you suggest? I have worked from home but now there are no jobs even for those who can go to the offices.

          So I pass the time, meditate, talk to nurses, watch TV and comment on blogs..

        • 90Lew90

          Sorry to hear that. I saw you mentioned the book Siddhartha. By Herman Hesse? That’s one of my favourite novels. You might enjoy The Perennial Philosophy by Aldous Huxley. Also Island, by the same author. In The Perennial Philosophy, Huxley presents the case that what the major religions have in common might approach the closest humankind can get to an “ultimate reality”. I’m not convinced, but it is an absorbing read by a brilliant man. I am a fan. Island is a novel, a utopian foil to the more famous, dystopian, Brave New World. Just a thought. If you’ve got time on your hands you may enjoy them. If you feel you can tackle some properly meaty stuff, you could try Michel Foucault’s Discipline and Punish. That blew me away, but it takes a bit of work. Best, L.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Thanks for sharing. I studied Huxley and his writing. “Probably as some justification of being a Raja Yogi. Basically through Timothy Liary and Richard Elbert (Bobba Ram Das). Huxley was given intervenius LSD in the last moments of his life by his wife.

          I would suggest you view another favorite of Mine

          “Brother Sun, Sister Moon”

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTuxjrpdYaA&list=PLDF1571DF6AA620DE&index=2

          It is about the Crusades Knight of Knight’s. Who returns from the Crusades disillusioned by a Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan type of war). How he deals with shame of his actions.

          He goes to the woods and does not want to work in his fathers factory. His father forces him to run his business while his father goes on a Holiday. He goes into the factory and discovers men, women and children who have spent their entire lifes in the factory with no light and constant fabric die exposure. So he sets them all free. He solves “its just business” mentality. His father returns and drags him to the pope and ask the pop for permission to kill the SOB. The pope starts grant this wish but divine provdence interferes’ When Francis of Assisi’s ask the Pope what would Jesus do. Would he not let all people be free.

          He befriends an earlier school girl “Saint Clare of Assisi” and they smell flowers and chase butterflies expressing great love of nature and life.. As each Knight returns he has to see why Francis lost it. Eventually all the Knight join Francis and Claire. The order of St Francis grows to 100+. So their fathers come and kill them all but Francis and Claire.

          That is the story of Saint Francis of Assisi. Who drops his idea of establishing an Order of love and Joy and disappear in the the forest where all the birds and animals befriend him and he is known far and why as the Monk of the animals.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother_Sun,_Sister_Moon

        • 90Lew90

          Thanks. You could do worse than to read Aldous Huxley’s grandfather’s work. TH Huxley, “Darwin’s bulldog”, was one of the great early expositors and defenders of Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection. Likewise Huxley’s brother, Julian, also a biologist although unfortunately he was convinced that eugenics might be a Good Thing. That’s extremely dodgy territory as far as I’m concerned. Have they got you on strong pain medication? Frankly (and no offence, but), a lot of your posts suggest you’re out of it.

        • TheNuszAbides

          i posted too soon! Milrinone, eh?
          sorry about your worldly heart.
          looks like your figurative one is as punchy as ever, though.

        • CayuseWarrior

          This is more fun than watching 24/7

          More fun than watching Wanted Dead or Alive, Have Gun Will Trave or Gunsmoke

        • 90Lew90

          Have a go at Pan’s Labyrinth by Guillermo del Toro. It’s Mexican-Spanish, set in the Spanish Civil War. You should be able to download it from some torrent site. Good movie.

        • TheNuszAbides

          we haven’t seen his prescription(s)… ;)

          (er, the ones that come from the medical field; we’re seeing plenty of the other kind!)

        • 90Lew90

          Maybe magic mushrooms grow in the medical field.

        • RichardSRussell

          Many call themselves Christians, but that does not make a Christian. A Christian has to be a Christian.

          And, unlike the other 1.5 billion self-identified Christians on Earth, only you know exactly what that takes, right?

        • CayuseWarrior

          No. this all started when I said only Atheist and False Prophets think GOD is a BEING. Either for or against a falsehood.

          Real Christians are the Son of GOD and do not worship his name. The become Christ with behavior
          1) Deny yourself
          2) Pick up our cross
          3) Follow ME

          That is through Jesus Christ

          John 4 (KJV)

          24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

        • RichardSRussell

          Yeah, you have your definition of what’s a “real Christian” and they have theirs. You think they’re liars, and they think you’re a faker. Why should I believe you and not them? You all claim to be “real Christians”. All you’ve got to back up your claim is your own word.

          I’m gonna wait for Jesus to show up, point at somebody, and say “These guys are right, and all the others are wrong.” What do you suppose are the odds — out of 1.5 billion self-proclaimed Christians on Earth — that he’ll be pointing at you? I’d guess it’s 1 out of 1.5 billion, multiplied by the odds that Jesus is ever gonna show up in person. That makes the final result zero.

          So rant on all you want, nobody here believes you, because all you’ve got to back up your BS is your own (worthless) word for it.

        • CayuseWarrior

          “All you’ve got to back up your claim is your own word.”

          That is not true. I am speaking from a source (King James Version)

          My point is GOD is not person, being, and Heaven is not a physical place.

          John 4: Says GOD is Spirt so do I.

          You cannot read or conprehend was MY POINT

          I never was selling anything. Looking for discussion of how wrong Atheist and some Sunday Schoolers are.

          Jesus taught behavior not worship. Ask you to choose between living for the physical material world and self-motivation or living for the Spirit and the Spiritual World Consciousness.

          My only point is 2000 year ago Christ spoke to those living for the flesh. Let’s call them athiest, Jews and some who call themselves Christians.

          So 2000 years ago it was the same discussion.

        • RichardSRussell

          That is not true. I am speaking from a source (King James Version)

          Are you utterly oblivious to the fact that all those people who call themselves Christians and whom you contend are not true Christians are using the very same source material? And that they still disagree with you?

          You’re simply picking and choosing the parts of the big Rorschach Test that you choose to believe and interpreting them in your own idiosyncratic way. That’s the part where you’re asking us to take your word for it.

          And that’s ridiculously easy for anybody to do, because the Bible is riddled with contradictions and ambiguities. Which is why there are 5000 different sects of Christianity, each claiming that the other 4999 are wrong, and all their adherents are going to burn in Hell forever.

          They can’t all be right. But they can all be wrong. Just like you.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Case in Point: And if you or they cannot read Jesus’s own words of tell you to be a REAL CHRISTIAN. Your problem is a “C” student and not an “A” Student

          Then you speak up and show me where else in the bible. Christ tells you the behavior to BE HIM or simple WORSHIP him

          John 4:
          24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

          Obviously not in body praying to a spirt, but as a spirit.

          Matthew 16:24

          24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

          25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

          26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

          27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

          Luke 9: 23

          23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

          24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

          25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole

          world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

          26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.

          27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

          Mark 8: 34

          34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

          35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s,the same shall save it.

          36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

          37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

          38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

        • RichardSRussell

          Why do you bother quoting the Bible? 1st off, as already noted, even people who believe the Bible disagree about what it means. 2nd off, we’re atheists here. We don’t believe the Bible. It’s just a book of fairy tales, no different than the Koran or Zend Avesta or the just-so stories of the American Indians or African animists. You have given us no reason whatsoever to think it’s any better than they are — and I’ll bet dollars to donuts you don’t believe them. So why should anybody else believe you?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Looking for discussion of how wrong Atheist and some Sunday Schoolers are.

          You mean: looking for a captive audience for your assumptions? Arguments and evidence are what we care about.

        • CayuseWarrior

          What? I am not adding a fairy tale to the KJV.

          The word and what do the mean

          John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

          Show me where else it says GOD is a little white man with a white beard on a Golden Thrown behind Pearly Gates. Does not exist.

          Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

          Show me where KJV says to be a Christian is anything else.

          He did not say for you to follow him hanging on a cross as dead flesh. But to follow him into the Spirit world to LIVE as Spirit

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          100% off topic. I guess that means you win.

        • CayuseWarrior

          The word and what do they mean is not Assumption. It is written. You are twisting the coin. And not taking the literal mean. What you need the POPE to translate Spirit for you or Flesh?

    • Greg G.

      You seem to be picking and choosing. You quote what Jesus should have said but ignore what is attributed to him.

      Luke 14:26-27
      26 “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

      You left out
      4) Reject all familial relationships.

      • CayuseWarrior

        “Some will see, but not see” You missed it Shakespeare.

        The entire New Testament is not Moses Laws for Mammon and living for flesh (the sin of living for the physical material world) and an Eye for an Eye. I

        Not half as approach, but the whole enchilada. You are the one picking what you like best. You either become Christ or you are not a Christian.

        “Be in the world, but not of the World” does not allow you to pick and choose for you self. You are either a Christian or you are not.

        You appear to be a weekend Warrior (Sunday school) quarterback Christian. That may be a Churchianist, but not A Christian

        Matthew 7: (KJV)

        14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

        15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

        16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

        17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

        18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

        19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

        20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

        21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

        22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

        23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

        24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

        25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

        26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

        27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

        • Greg G.

          You appear to be a weekend Warrior (Sunday school) quarterback Christian. That may be a Churchianist, but not A Christian

          You are correct with the last bit. The first bit is way off.

          26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

          You claim that Jesus taught works and not belief. I am merely pointing out that Jesus said both, according to the gospels. You are cherry-picking the parts to support your idea that Jesus fits with Hinduism and Buddhism. Jesus was a puppet figure in the gospels. The Jesus people construct out of the gospels is a Rorshacht test. You are building your claims on shifting sands. I am only pointing that out.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Show me where Jesus said to believe and not do.

          He taught behavior prove that he did not.

          I showed you the 8 limbs of Yoga (Krishna) the 4 noble truths (4th is the 8 limbs of yoga

          And I showed you the 3 steps Christ taught you to be A Christian is the same as the other 2.

          Prove me wrong. Practice all 3 and see where you get.

          Don’t just tell me they are not. What crap is that?

        • Greg G.

          Show me where Jesus said to believe and not do.

          I did not claim anything about the “and not do”. John 3:16 is the most famous verse in the Bible.

          John 3:16 (KJV)
          16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

          He taught behavior prove that he did not.

          That wasn’t my claim but OK:

          Romans 3:20 (KJV)
          Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

          The ancient authors put a lot of words into Jesus’ mouth. You can show practically anything from Jesus quotes.

          I showed you the 8 limbs of Yoga (Krishna) the 4 noble truths (4th is the 8 limbs of yoga

          And I showed you the 3 steps Christ taught you to be A Christian is the same as the other 2.

          Prove me wrong. Practice all 3 and see where you get.

          Don’t just tell me they are not. What crap is that?

          Show me that in the King James Version.

        • CayuseWarrior

          How can you say 1 verse of the WORD of GOD is above any other?

          “John 3:16 (KJV)16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

          Word “begotten” generally suggests the idea of originating from or being produced, “born of GOD, not body, flesh blood)

          John 1:13
          13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

          GOD is spirit he has no body, SEX (male or female), cannot have sex, age, color, race, creed, etc. He is energy (light) and not matter.

          17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

          20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

          21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

          To become the SON OF GOD not a worshiper of GOD or Christ

          John 1: 12

          2 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

          So you want to worship his name and not be GOD’s Spirit. One is lost in body and the other is Spirit itself…A Christian.

        • Greg G.

          John 3:16 is easily the most famous verse in this country. For many years, there was a guy who attended televised sporting events wearing a rainbow wig and holding up a sign that said “JOHN 3:16″. Tim Tebow was a great college quarterback with a huge Christian following during his brief NFL career and he put black patches under his eyes that said “JOHN” on one and “3:16″ on the other.

          I would never put one word of any god above another if I thought they came from a god.

          Jesus is thought to have spoken Aramaic, the common language of Judea and Galilee in the first century. John 3:16 is part of a conversation with Nicodemus, a Pharisee. Jesus tells him that he must be born from above but Nicodemus thinks he has told him that he must be born again. This tells us the conversation was in Greek and not Aramaic because only Greek has the homonym that could result in that confusion. That shows the story comes from a Greek writer but does not come from an oral tradition from Jesus or the Pharisees.

          That makes everything about Jesus in John not reliable.

  • TheSquirrel

    I used to have a personal relationship with Jesus. But then I decided I don’t need friends who are notorious flakes.

  • MNb
    • TheNuszAbides

      thank you; i got back on facebook for the first time in ages to spread the bad news around. now i’m yearning for another viewing of The New Statesman…

  • evodevo

    I can’t see any evangelical born-again REALLY having a personal relationship with a messianic orthodox Jewish Mediterranean peasant who followed the Torah and probably closely resembled all those muslim terrists in appearance …..LOL

  • MichaelBrew

    Jesus is a husbando!

  • Ron
  • aar9n

    My response when people say they have a personal relationship with Jesus is to ask them what Jesus’s favorite color is. Every relationship I’ve been in I’ve known the other’s favorite color.

    • SuperMark

      It’s red right? We all know God/Jebus loves blood sacrifice.

    • 90Lew90

      Pink.

    • Greg G.

      Jesus was born when the shepherds watched their flocks by night, which would be in the spring. Why would people who have a personal relationship celebrate his birthday on Christmas? People I have had relationships with who had birthdays in late December didn’t like that the specialness their birthdays were diminished by being in the holiday season.

      • MNb

        As a kid I was one them – only few relatives visited me on my birthday.

    • TheSquirrel

      Jesus only likes white people, right?

      • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

        Well, he was a good-looking white guy after all.

        • TheSquirrel

          The mind blowing thing is that God’s favorite color wouldn’t have existed before the flood because before god invented the rainbow light didn’t have separate spectra and couldn’t be split up into it’s respective colors.
          Or some bullshit.

        • InDogITrust

          Holy FSM! Really? Actually, that sounds vaguely familiar. Did you know the elephant has a long trunk because a crocodile stretched it out?

        • TheSquirrel

          Lol, no I had no idea! But I did know giraffes have such long necks so they’d stop hitting themselves in the head whenever they shrugged!

      • InDogITrust

        Not true. Jesus loves people of all colors. As long as they are children, and only one of each color per photo op. Ideally in “ethnic” clothing.

    • MNb

      Excellent question. I haven’t always known the favorite colour of the other, but it’s easy to replace it.

  • SuperMark

    You’re right Bob this convo has been hijacked by our friend Mr. CW, sorry I’m not helping…

    I did have one point to make about this piece before Mr. CW distracted me:

    I heard this philosophy about a “personal relationship” with jebus all the time in my youth and it was very destructive. I have never been very good at lying to myself and while I tried ceaselessly to obtain this holy grail of Christendom it never happened. Even when I believed everything I was taught without exception I never felt as if I was actually close to jebus like I was with my parents and friends. As you can imagine I believed it must be something wrong with me or that I was doing something wrong because jebus was hiding himself from me. While this was a source of much distress in my youth now looking back on it I can see that this lie/distortion from the church was at the root of my de-conversion.

    My point is this: if christianity wants to remain relevant they need to understand that words have meaning and equating faith in a deity to the reality of human relationships will cause dissidence in the hearts of their believers.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      That’s the crazy thing–Christianity is supposed to be freeing and beautiful and all that, but if you can’t see the emperor’s clothes, then it’s your fault. You’ve done something wrong, or maybe God just hates you.

      And that’s not especially freeing at all.

      • MNb

        In defense of theology – and you know my view on it – I must say that it addresses this issue:

        http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/5009/Archief/archief/article/detail/2644234/1996/09/04/Twijfel-en-geloofscrisis-noodzakelijk-egrave-n-gewoon-in-leven-theologiestudent.dhtml

        “Doubt and belief crisis necessary and normal in the life of a theology student.”

        • TheSquirrel

          Well, that’s not in english…
          Doubt and belief crisis? This is supporting evidence of theology? I’d consider it evidence of cognitive dissonance. Unless I’m missing the point, I can’t read the article.

        • MNb

          My only point is that theology addresses the issue and then understanding the header is enough. That’s why I translated only that. It contradicts “you’ve done something wrong or maybe god just hates you”.
          Asking me if this is supporting evidence of theology is silly.

        • TheSquirrel

          Oh ok lol sorry I did misunderstand. Pardon me, I’ll just mosey on along…

        • SuperMark

          But it wasn’t doubt, i was told that i was supposed to love jebus like a friend/family member, that jebus would give me comfort and direction, that i could talk to him and he would listen. But i couldn’t do any of that and i felt no connection with him. How can i love someone i don’t know? Adoration maybe, but not love.

          The doubt came much later and in reference to your post, i went through all of the same teaching during my 3yr stent at Liberty U. However, it completely backfired on them. When i was presented with arguments against god/christianity i always found the “correct” argument to be flawed and weak.

        • MNb

          I don’t postulate that that Dutch article applies to you and your circumstances. One thing I have learned is that christians manage to reach consensus on hardly anything. The Resurrection and the Trinity perhaps.

        • SuperMark

          Agreed, i don’t understand why it’s not reasonable to expect a perfect god to give us a clear message.

          One of my favorite Hunter S. Thompson quotes:
          “If god had written a book he would have given it to everybody!”

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Love the quote! I can’t find it online, though. Is there another variant that you remember?

        • SuperMark

          Yes! It was from memory so not exactly correct, of course HST said it better:
          “If the Bible’s God’s book, why didn’t He give it to everyone?” – The Rum Diary

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Nice! I’ll use that one sometime.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Seek and ye shall find. Individual Right and Free Choice may not be popular, but groups are man made and not found in nature

        • SuperMark

          I don’t understand what that has to do with the HST quote?

          In my experience individual right and free choice are very popular ideologies, even in countries that do not have those rights…

          Apes have social structures as well as some birds and dogs. How are we not part of nature?

        • CayuseWarrior

          What individual right did the American MOB Rule give to Saddam, Qadaffi, Bin Laden, OJ Simpson, Stacy Anthony

          Not just innocent until proven guilty, proven innocent by a jury of their peers or Kangarooo Court or an order to Kill w/o trials or evidence

          That is not my Great Granddad, Granddad, Father, My son’s or My America.

          Lynch and Burning at the Stake? Why have the Rule of LAW when you have Popularity, Majority Rule

        • 90Lew90

          “…but groups are man made and not found in nature”
          That’s bullshit.

        • CayuseWarrior

          You bet a Elk in nature have a sign on them

          1. Cow! or Bull
          2. Heard

          In nature Man goes around with a sign

          1. Man or Women or confused
          2. Group or Individual – NO! not logical
          3. Group and individuals – Some group, some group and individual and some just individuals

          Man is born in nature for a group -My as (learned behavior)

        • 90Lew90

          Right I didn’t understand any of that apart from that you seem to be suggesting that prosocial behaviour is “learned”. The evidence is stacked against that claim conclusively, that prosociality, and with it altruism and “virtue” are evolved traits and not unique to humans. These traits exist in the higher apes, for instance bonobos and chimps (see Frans de Waal on this) and in a more rudimentary form in a lot of vertebrates. Wolves and dogs, horses, elephants, killer whales, dolphins… the list goes on and on. Even in insects there is instinctive cooperation for the benefit of the group. Bees, ants and wasps spring to mind.

          In humans, instinctive prosociality is confirmed across a number of disciplines. Studies in psychology (in-group/out-group) confirm evolutionary theory. Incidentally, this goes to the heart of one of my major problems with religion. It provides a completely superfluous layer for more division, on top of, say, race, nation, language, sexuality, by which we identify fellow human being as “other”, given our hard-wiring for in-group/out-group way of thinking.

          For more on this, see Matt Ridley’s The Origins of Virtue, Robert Axelrod’s The Evolution of Cooperation, and more recently (great strides have been made in this area of research since the 1990s when fMRI technology became much more sophisticated), Just Babies: The Origins of Good and Evil, by Paul Bloom, Moral Tribes: Emotion, Reason and the Gap Between Us and Them by Joshua Greene and Social: Why our brains are wired to connect by Matthew D. Lieberman. Each of the last three have been published within the past two years. All worth looking at.

        • CayuseWarrior

          Come on. Science has proven every cell (with no brain function at all) has an instinct (memory) to survive. Every cell in a mult-cell being work together (with no brain function) Cells do not have brains. Work together for the survival of the entire whole being.

          So… You point relative to biology and physics. Is that brain, man, human is something evolving from apes. American has been having sex with animals and have yet to create one new species YET.

          What is the strain upon your macro evolution. Me thinks you put too much emphasis on humanism and importance on cause and effect without working within nature instead of against it. Objective Observation of nature (science) has proven to exist for eternity. Man has yet to define anything that did not exist in nature before man discovered that it did. Be that Big Bank if we ever prove that or little green men exist too

        • TheNuszAbides

          “Science has proven every cell (with no brain function at all) has an instinct (memory) to survive.”

          citation?
          when you come up dry i’ll settle for anything that has “science has proven…” in the conclusion.

        • Greg G.

          The Unitarians don’t accept the Trinity. Isaac Newton is claimed as a Christian when they want to show that Christianity can do science but he rejected the Trinity. according to Isaac Newton’s religious views.

        • MNb

          Go figure – I didn’t know that. So thanks.

        • CayuseWarrior

          And ducks don’t speak English

        • Greg G.

          Really? I asked a mallard about you and he said “Quack!”

        • CayuseWarrior

          Duck are supposed to Quack. Not shout Crap! Crap!

        • Sean

          Christians, despite how it may seem, are more alike than different. It doesn’t help my case to mention that I don’t believe in the Trinity. I remember when I first heard that idea. I think I laughed. “Not my will but thine be done” turns into “Not my will but mine be done” after all. Reading with that in mind though I began to see where the error came from. All that “I am in the Father and the Father in me” stuff. But despite this apparently big difference, I find that I tend to agree with my Catholic friends on pretty much everything. You’d think these differences would get in the way, but they only do if you let them. If you think about it, you agree on everything that really matters.

        • MNb

          “Christians, despite how it may seem, are more alike than different.”
          I’m all ears. Please provide us with a list of typical christian ideas and concepts all christians agree upon.

          “You’d think these differences would get in the way”
          Maybe you would think that, but not me. I’m probably the only atheist in a very religious town (less than 10 000 inhabitants). My atheism never got in the way.

          “If you think about it, you agree on everything that really matters.”
          What really matters is not typically christian. In my town we have catholics, protestants, muslims, buddhists, animists and some hindus. Plus atheist me. We largely agree on everything that really matters. In the fourteen years I have lived here religion only got in the way once (I was not involved). Typically the people who made troubles were evangelicals American style …..
          What does this tell you?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Yeah, the Trinity is a pretty big point to disagree over. And predestination. And who Jesus is (ask the Gnostics or Marcionites).

          But yes, I suspect that you and I do agree on most everything that matters–slavery is wrong, genocide is wrong, democracy and freedom to practice one’s religion are right, and so on. Pretty much everything you don’t find in the Bible.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I was just listening to an Unbelievable podcast where Christian Greg Boyd was discussing how doubt lays in the life of a Christian.

          Seems to me that doubt is telling you to stop being an idiot. But I don’t think he cares what I think.

        • MNb

          “stop being an idiot”
          I don’t think that’s what those Dutch theologians mean as well. My take is that it is the gazillionth attempt to stop the exodus from Dutch churches. Even with this exodus all christian demoninations have serious problems finding themselves enough ministers. It’s really sad for them: about 9 million christians, empty churches and still no priests, especially young ones.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Maybe I should suggest to the Pope that he allow priests to marry. Priestly celibacy is a stupid idea anyway.

          No, wait. I bet he’s already heard that one.

        • MNb

          The protestants aren’t doing any better.

        • TheNuszAbides

          doing whom any better? *waggle*waggle*

        • TheNuszAbides

          i still hope to see cathedrals & such put to entertaining use rather than torn down (if they aren’t concealing profound structural defects of course). maybe the last refuge will be creating an army of the dispossessed?

  • InDogITrust

    Getting back on track: the church i was raised in was not a “personal relationship with Jesus” church, so it wasn’t on my radar until “it’s not a religion, it’s a relationship” became the thing to say.
    That just strikes me as a silly mental Fail, but add the “personal” and I think it’s creepy. Having a relationship with someone no one else can see or hear is one thing, but you have a [i]personal[/i] relationship with one? Oh! look at the time!

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      I think it’s creepy.

      You mean like embalming your spouse and putting them in a coffin on display in the living room? Yeah, pretty creepy.

      • InDogITrust

        More like embalming them and seating them comfortably in their favorite chair.

  • SmilingAtheist

    Say……… I’ve got a close personal ‘Realtionship’ with my Penis, too! We’ve been close, intimate friends for almost 70 years! I talk to ‘him’ and greet ‘him’ at least several times a day. And, he’s real… I can see and touch ‘him’, unlike your ‘Jesus’. Now that doesn’t necessarily make him a GHOD…. but several women have told me, and acclaimed m, and said… that my ‘skills’ in the Sac were godly… ;-D So, Get real Christians… your imaginings do not constitute a ‘Personal Relationship with any Ghod, even on your best days…. They’re still just your ‘Imaginings’

    • Greg G.

      As long as he still does that re…erection thing.

      • Robster

        A res-erection perhaps?

        • Greg G.

          That’s the joke I was searching for. Thanks.

  • Sean

    To say that I don’t have a personal relationship with God is pretty inaccurate. I do know what his voice sounds like, it’s not physically audible but it is intensely distinct and specific. I do know his values, his opinions, what makes him happy and what makes him sad. And not because I’ve read about them, though that makes for a very open channel of communication, but because I’ve felt it. Because he talks about these things with me. When I want to find something out, about what I should do in my life, what is going to happen to me, why something is the way it is, he answers, and he has never steered me wrong. When I need help with something, he tells me what I can do to improve, or gives me direct aid, whichever is more prudent. He has a sense of humor, and a personality. I had a friend who’s dad told them the story of how they prepared the sacrament one Sunday as a kid, I believe Communion it’s called in Catholicism, and we always use bread and water. Anyway, he decided to play a joke, so he took two of the tiny cups of water, randomly chosen, and poured in seven up instead of water. This was in a congregation of a couple hundred people, mind you, with a cup for each person (although there’s no way of knowing, the way it’s passed out, where it will go). So he played his prank and thought he was so funny, and sat back to watch. He wasn’t prepared for God pranking him right back. Out of all the places the seven up could have gone, the two cups went to the guy’s mother and the bishop, who is the leader of the congregation. I laughed so hard when I heard that. I could give you innumerable examples of God’s personal hand in the lives of his children, some of them personal, some of them even too personal to share, and some of them from close friends. I know the whole “It’s true because I feel it” sounds feeble, but let me refer you to Rene Descartes’ “I think therefore I am”. Remember his argument was that even if some sinister force is messing with our perception of reality and all our senses are an illusion, I still know I exist because of the pure immediacy of thought. I may not that this chair exists, but at least I know I do, essentially, because I feel it. Similarly, if my belief in God didn’t necessitate a belief in the existence of this physical reality as well, or in other words if I were forced to choose, which I am not, I would be more sure of the existence of my God than that of my visible friends and family, or that I’m sitting at my computer right now.
    I have always believed in God, but I’ve grown much closer to him over the course of my life. It helps when you take the effort to spend a little more time with him. He took a self-loathing, self-destructive, arrogant, contentious, pessimistic, and unfriendly person, and turned him into a half-decent fellow. He’s still working on me, and I’ve got a long, long, long way to go, but I’ve only made it this far because of his help. I know because I tried to make it without his help and I couldn’t do it. By golly I tried, more than I had tried anything else in my life. Even then I believed in God and thought I wanted him to help me, but I didn’t realize I was really shutting him out and ignoring him and rejecting his help. One fateful day that changed, and I changed overnight. Literally overnight. I made more progress in 24 hours of just letting God help me than I had made in years of trying on my own. Some of this sounds vague and unspecific, but that is not because it actually is, but because I am ashamed of my past and can’t bear to get too specific. When I say “change” I mean a very specific and quantitatively measurable change, and when I say “Let God into my life”, I mean one clear and specific physical action.
    To say “I don’t know where I would be without Him” would be a boldfaced lie. I know exactly where I would be, and I’m to ashamed to admit it. I’ve had the great blessing to see who I would be without my religion, and it’s not a pretty picture. My personal relationship with God is my most valued treasure. Christ suffered not only for our sins, but for every pain and hardship of any kind anyone has endured, not just “stubbing your toe” but your stubbing of your toe, just so he could understand through personal experience what each of us goes through. We knew him before we came to this Earth, we learn to know him again while we are here, and we will know him when we see him again.
    I could point to different examples of answered prayers or miracles in my life or in the lives of others, some of them quite spectacular and others more quiet, but doing so would really be besides the point. The reality is that those things, even if they contained fire and bolts of lightning, are small and meaningless compared to the stark reality of my relationship with God that I feel within my heart. That is more real than anything I know.
    I wish you guys happiness in life. Mine comes from serving my God, or in other words, feeling and acting upon my love for my fellow beings.

    • MNb

      “it’s not physically audible”
      Then you don’t know.

      “I do know his values, his opinions, what makes him happy and what makes him sad.”
      So do muslims, hindus and pastafarians. That’s to say, they make the same claim as you. Why should I accept your views and reject theirs?

      “I could give you innumerable examples of God’s personal hand”
      Oh, I don’t doubt that. So can muslims, hindus and pastafarians.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

      How would you know if you were deluding yourself about God?
      What would that look like?


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