The God Debate, 3 of 3 (Fiction)

The God Debate, 3 of 3 (Fiction) March 21, 2018

From Part 2 of this excerpt from my book Cross Examined:

Paul sipped from his cup as he considered Jim’s argument. He was beginning to enjoy this tea—harsh but with a sweet aftertaste. “I heard a story about a woman tending her garden.” Paul wasn’t much for telling jokes, but this one took on a new meaning. “The pastor walks by and says, ‘Isn’t it marvelous what God can do in a garden?’ She wipes the sweat from her forehead and says, ‘You should have seen it when He had it all to Himself.’ ”

Jim stood and let out a whoop. “There’s hope for you yet!” He picked up the tea tray. “Let’s continue in the kitchen.”

Paul followed Jim. “What about the miraculous recoveries from illness? I suppose luck or coincidence or legend explains them.”

“If there is a remotely plausible natural explanation, that is far more believable than a supernatural one. Just take the facts for what they are and don’t force them to fit a Christian presupposition. The Bible was written by a tribe of people thousands of years before modern science. Supernatural explanations were the best they had. Religion is a cultural fossil from a time when society had nothing better.”

Jim showed Paul where he kept the tea. Paul put two fresh spoonsful in the pot while Jim refilled the kettle and set it on to boil.

“I’m impressed by how tidy you keep things,” Paul said. In truth he’d seen only the kitchen, the living room that Jim used as his office, and a hallway with several closed doors, but he was curious about this grand house.

“I maintain things the way Vive liked. She was content for me to keep my office as I wanted, but the rest of the house she kept pristine. Our neighbors had maids but Vive insisted that keeping the house in order was her job.”

Paul felt a wave of sympathy with a bit of pity for this sad recluse. He was keeping his house in order so Vive could return at any moment and be satisfied. Locked away in his luxurious hermitage, this man with his savage intellect and mismatched socks was living in a world of the mind, shielded from outside emotion. But Paul felt strongly drawn to this eccentric man and realized he now thought of Jim as a friend.

Jim stared out the window. Paul shrugged off the weight of the silence to restart the discussion. “What do you think of the other attributes of God—that He’s merciful, just, loving …”

Loving? Ha! Imagine a man saying to his wife, ‘Darling, I love you more than words can express, and I want you near me forever … but if you ever leave me, so help me, I’ll hunt you down and kill you slowly!’ We are told that God’s love is infinitely deep, far greater than that of a parent for a child, and yet if we don’t believe the right thing, into hell we go for a jolly and exhilarating carnival of torture forever.”

Paul remembered a frequent subject of Samuel’s sermons. “The book of John says, ‘For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.’ A father offering up his child—it’s the ultimate sacrifice.”

Jim smiled and shook his head. “Jesus’s sacrifice—hugely important to the Christian, but it now seems to me a rather small matter.”

“No!” Paul had listened in awe to too many sermons in which Samuel paid loving attention to the details of Jesus’s death to let this stand. “Jesus died by crucifixion—a horrible, humiliating way to die.”

“And I might die from cancer,” Jim said. “I might suffer from six months of agony before I finally die—agony so great that I would wish I were dead. Six hours of pain on the cross might seem the easier route.”

“You may not understand six hours of pain from crucifixion.”

“And you may not understand six months of pain from cancer.” Jim ran his fingers through his long hair. “Now let’s imagine I go to hell to suffer an eternity of torment. That makes Jesus’s six hours of pain insignificant compared to mine.”

“Still, His death was the height of sacrifice. He’s God. It’s like a human sacrificing himself to benefit an insect.”

“Not a good analogy. Jesus is supposed to have infinite love for humanity, but I don’t see any human having much love for an insect.” Jim placed two clean cups on the tea tray. “The absurdity of the story, of course, is the resurrection. If he died, there’s no miraculous resurrection, and if there’s a resurrection, there’s no sacrifice through death. Miracle or sacrifice—you can’t have it both ways. The Gospels don’t say that he died for our sins but that he had a rough couple of days for our sins. And if we must bear Adam’s sin no matter what we do, why don’t we benefit from the sacrifice that removes it no matter what we do?”

“But the Christian story is unique. Where else do we have a god dying for the benefit of humans?”

“Christianity is unique, just like every religion,” Jim said. “And what about Prometheus?”

Paul had read quite a bit of Greek mythology, but he let Jim continue.

“Prometheus stole fire from Olympus and gave it to humanity. Zeus discovered the crime and punished Prometheus by chaining him to a rock so that a vulture could eat his liver. Each night, his liver grew back and the next day the vulture would return, day after agonizing day. Now that’s a sacrifice for humanity. Jesus is crucified once and then pops back into existence—rather weak by comparison.”

Prometheus was fiction, of course, but Paul had nothing to argue that the miracle stories of Jesus were anything different. “But if the sacrifice saves you from hell,” he said, “maybe we should appreciate it and be grateful for it, even if we can’t understand it.”

“Do Bronze Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice? If God loves us so deeply and he wants to forgive us, couldn’t he just … forgive us?”

“God can’t just forgive us.”

“Why not? That’s how you do it.”

“What I mean is, He’s the judge, and to forgive us, to simply let our sins go unpunished, would bypass His perfect justice.”

“Then I don’t think much of his ‘perfect justice.’ It’s certainly not the lesson we get from the parable of the Prodigal Son where the father forgives the son even after being wronged by him. If that’s the standard of mercy, why can’t God follow it? And maybe I’m old-fashioned, but I’d prefer to see punishment in proportion to the crime. The person whose crime was a white lie shouldn’t get the same punishment as Attila the Hun. No crime deserves an eternal stay in hell.

“And I find the logic behind Jesus’s sacrifice especially opaque. God made mankind imperfect and inherently vulnerable to sin. Living a sinless life is impossible, so hell becomes unavoidable. But God sacrificed Jesus, one of the persons of God, so mankind could go to heaven instead. That is, God sacrificed himself to himself so we could bypass a rule that God made himself and that God deliberately designed us to never be able to meet? I can’t even understand that; I certainly feel no need to praise God for something so nonsensical. We can just as logically curse him for consigning us to hell from birth.”

Paul leaned against the counter and stared at the floor, absorbing these ideas and taking stock of his position. He had crossed a boundary, gradually. Like a wagon almost imperceptibly cresting a large and gently rounded hill, things felt different, and he now realized that he was on the other side. Two drops of rain can land near each other on a mountain ridge, the first flowing down one side, and the second down the other. One eventually finds its way into the Atlantic Ocean and one into the Pacific—a slight initial difference with vast ultimate consequences. He had been on one side of the ridge, and now he was on the other. He had assumed that God existed, and any evidence to the contrary he had reshaped to fit that assumption. But he could do that no longer.

The kettle whistled. Jim filled the pot and carried the tea tray back to the living room with Paul following.

“How’s your chess game?” Paul asked.

“It’s still early, but I’m gaining the upper hand.”

The two men sat and drank tea and traded pleasantries as the afternoon light faded. But as congenial as the environment was, Paul couldn’t relax. He fidgeted in his chair, feeling distracted as he gave increasingly curt responses to Jim’s comments. Finally he turned the conversation to the issue that had been nagging him. “I don’t think I believe anymore.” There—it was out. “I can’t force myself to believe—I need reasons. That’s why I was a quick convert to Reverend Hargrove’s way of thinking—he promised those reasons.” His thoughts seemed muddled, but the words tumbled out more easily now. “I thought that he delivered on that promise . . . but I don’t think so anymore. If the reasons aren’t there, I can’t believe, can I?” Maybe it wasn’t advice he needed as much as support. He didn’t mention that he could never admit this to Samuel. Samuel would be furious.

“You gave up childhood things once you’d outgrown them.”

Paul felt doubtful and said nothing. While in Samuel’s orbit, his belief had kept him in a safe place—confining but comfortable. Jim’s new thinking took him out, away from those confines. He felt as if he were squinting in the bright sun, breathing invigorating but unfamiliar air. Old constraints now appeared ephemeral, even imaginary. There were many possibilities, but it was all so new.

Jim leaned back with his arm on the top of the sofa. “Imagine that a man goes to a doctor. He has been crippled for his entire life and uses crutches. The doctor examines the man and says, ‘Good news—I’ve seen this problem before, and I know how to fix it. After a couple of months of treatment, you’ll be able to walk normally. No more need for those crutches.’ The man hugs his crutches and says, ‘Don’t throw away my crutches, Doc! I couldn’t get along without them.’ But the doctor has no intention of doing so. He heals the patient, and the crutches become unnecessary. The patient throws them away himself.”

“But who are you to say what my crutches are?”

“No one at all. If you think you don’t have crutches, then that’s fine. If you think you do, then you’re the one who will need to discard them. It’s all up to you. Don’t replace Sam as your authority with me. You are the authority.”

"No, I haven't. A FB friend has been posting a lot anti-flat-earth material lately.I did ..."

The Backfire Effect: When Accurate Information ..."
"Yeah, I've seen that model, but it would have the sun and moon disappear into ..."

The Backfire Effect: When Accurate Information ..."
"There's a thin line between asking for sources and JAQing off [LINK]. The first is ..."

The Backfire Effect: When Accurate Information ..."
"This gif is from the Flat Earth Society wiki; it's probably easier shown this way. ..."

The Backfire Effect: When Accurate Information ..."

Browse Our Archives

Follow Us!


TRENDING AT PATHEOS Nonreligious
What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Kevin K

    The whole notion of god making a sacrifice of himself to himself is the silliest part of the whole thing, isn’t it? I mean, if he was that upset over the “incident” in the terrarium garden, why didn’t he just poof the Adam and Adam-rib back into their “pre-Fall” state of dull stupidity?

    • Greg G.

      If God had asked me, I would have suggested putting Jesus in the Garden of Eden instead of Adam. He could make Jessica from a rib if need be.

      If the serpent said, “You shall not surely die,” Jesus and Jessica would be prepared with snappy comebacks like, “Man does not live by magic fruit alone.” To which the serpent would reply, “Man could live forever by the magic fruit of the Tree of Life alone.” Then Jesus could come back with a double entendre for a single word that causes the hearer to misunderstand him like, “I have food that you do not know about.” from John 4:31–34. That always gets them in the Gospel of John.

      • Susan

        If God had asked me

        I know you’re addressing a single logical/moral point about an ancient myth but…

        If God had asked me, I would have suggested she not do the whole natural selection thing. It is an extremely horrific thing for an omnipotent being who gets to pull reality out of metaphysical nothingness to do.

        Most of the prey are babies. The predators have no choice and no moral prompts against that sort of thing. .

        Think of gangrene, rabies, cancer, bad teeth,, forest fires, cycles of famine and drought, etc. These things (and countless others) are basic to natural history.

        Consider that until recently, half of human babies didn’t make it to the age of five. That they didn’t quietly and painlessly die but instead died badly.

        Natural selection is just the story of fragile biological beings emerging in a universe ruled by physics.

        Until you claim a moral agent is responsible.

        Then, it has everything to answer for.

        I get tired of talking about a single myth among thousands.

        I understand the importance of pointing out “Why not Jesus in the first place?” (A question a child would ask themself, as I did in catechism) but the theistic defenses to other questions get them in deeper.

        Yahwehjesus plucked reality out of metaphysical nothingness.

        Bullshit. That makes it even worse.

        • Paul B. Lot

          Ooof, rabies is terrifying.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Amongst countless other things.

        • Paul B. Lot

          Are you a Steven King fan/have you read Cujo?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Not a huge fan of reading fiction…or should I say, work that is advertised as fiction.

          That said, I like and have seen many of the movies based on Stephen King’s books, including Cujo, that that was a long time ago.

        • Kodie

          Starvation. Animals have to kill other animals to avoid starvation. I’m sure rabies isn’t fun, but let’s pretend no diseases exist. The system of life is set up for maximum cruelty. That’s even aside from animals like humans who kill for fun.

        • Greg G.

          But… but… but… all of that bad stuff was because of the Fall. Yahwehjesus wouldn’t have pissed of Yahwehjesus.

        • Susan

          But… but… but… all of that bad stuff was because of the Fall.

          Yes. It’s nuts.

          Cathollics who turn themselves into pretzels to demonstrate that we can’t prove the Fall never happened and that when it happened, it happened when at some point in the fuzz of humans becoming humans, when somehow some pair of interbreeding pairs across biological time had souls and disobeyed Yahwehjesus and somehow that caused hundreds of millions of years of preemptive suffering.

          These are the “sophisticated” types who sneer at YECers.

          It’s all a desperate attempt to give credence to a single myth.

          None of it adds up in any direction.

        • Kodie

          Biblical literalists are obviously out of line with reality, but it’s those progressives who read large parts of the bible metaphorically who think they’re intellectually far above those ignorant fundies, trying to impress us with their arguments. Ignoring parts of the bible in favor of other parts, or interpreting parts of the bible dishonestly in a desperate attempt to align the obviously false parts with reality any way you can is the major clue that Christianity is false and religions are created. When people can weave up any story they like out of a text they behold as sacred, it’s pretty obvious they are making shit up to believe, and then believe it. That’s how all of them start. No religions are correct. They are all invented out of impressions and opinions of an imagined deity. If you’ve inherited a sacred text and feel you have to belong to it any way you can figure out, realize you are inventing a religion.

          Christians love to claim “we’re not all like that”. They love to find any uneducated pretend-science reason to avoid reality that confronts their dearly held beliefs. They love to count to billions and minimize the “slight” differences between their own beliefs and those of extremely different other Christians whenever it suits them. Everything about them points to pathetic pawns who have been lied to, and learn to lie to protect their beliefs. If you have to lie to protect “god”, there’s no god.

        • Otto

          These are the “sophisticated” types who sneer at YECers.

          I can’t up vote this enough

        • Pofarmer

          And yet, as you know, my kids attended Catholic school. They’re supposed to be all sophisticated and evolutiony and such. Middle boy overheard one of the kids a year or so younger than him in high school going “That was probably after the Flood” about something or other. The whole thing, and the way it’s taught, is just such a cludged up mess. What it really does it make it where kids, who turn into adults, have a hard time sorting fact from fiction.

        • Susan

          have a hard time sorting fact from fiction

          The RCC doesn’t care about sorting fact from fiction. You can reject science or accept science. That is up to the catholic.

          All that matters is that you agree to their bullshit.

          They have philosophy to attack “scientism” and to explain how the war between angels and demons explains everything bad.

          Fuck.

          How do you begin to argue with that?

        • Pofarmer

          Argue with it? It’s hard to even relate to. Some of the stuff is so far out there that it’s hard to believe it’s still out there in 2018. Accidents and substances? Really? Now I have to argue against “physics” that hasn’t been relevant for 600 years? And do it with people who aren’t really literate about the relevant science, even though they should be? Because “mysterious” ? Because YahwehJesus demands you shut off your brain?

          And why is it so damned important that everyone around them needs to share and validate their views?

        • Susan

          And why is it so damned important that everyone around them needs to share and validate their views?

          Because they are the One True Church, the representative of Jesus Christ on Earth, silly.

        • Pofarmer

          That explains all the miracles and healings and stuff.

        • TheNuszAbides

          where kids, who turn into adults, have a hard time sorting fact from fiction.

          i know you didn’t do it for anyone else’s approval (well, i very much doubt you did), but thanks for helping yours get ahead of that curve.

        • Pofarmer

          Approval hell. …….

        • Clint W. (Thought2Much)

          “These are the “sophisticated” types who sneer at YECers.”

          Yup. Somehow, by trying so hard to make their Christianity resemble something rational, they come off even worse than the young earth creationists.

        • TheNuszAbides

          special pleading, writ large, over goddamn millennia.

        • Susan

          over goddamn milennia

          Hundreds of millions of goddamn years.

          That drip with suffering. Unfathomable suffering that is ignored for the most part and when occasionally confronted, is treated like the backdrop to a story that makes Yahwehjesus look like the Gene Hackman character in The Quick and The Dead.

          Hundreds of millions of years against vulnerable creatures who never stood a chance.

          It’s a shitty myth.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp_jriZDSS8

        • TheNuszAbides

          well, i was only referring to the special pleading of humans on behalf of the as-yet-essentially-purely-imaginary Thingy. but of course.

        • Sample1

          Maybe I missed it but I don’t understand how the so-called Fall can be taken seriously considering there is no good reason to accept “first parents” as anything more than mere myth.

          I know this is common counter-apologetics fare but it seems to me it’s headline worthy the world over. Still. No first parents, no Fall. Game over.

          Hell, I remember a Catholic neighborhood friend telling me in the early eighties that Adam and Eve weren’t real. How I didn’t put two and two together thereafter (no Fall, no need for Jesus claims) is a great lament as I remained a believer until around 2011.

          The Fall is more like a description of their theology. A scenario of apologists on a literal floor calling 911 because they can’t get up.

          Mike

        • Pofarmer

          “First Parents” can also be seen as Allegory. Although, then, it isn’t clear why you need an absolutely real flesh and blood Jesus to go through a blood sacrifice for an allegorical sin.

        • Sample1

          In a science/reason age, wait long enough and most holy writ eventually transmogrifies into allegory.

          In other words, they make it up as they go along.

          Mike

        • Pofarmer

          As it get’s disproved, they have to move things around to keep the theology relevant. But then that just creates more holes.

        • TheNuszAbides

          theo”logical” spackle.

      • That sounds like it could be a fun book to read, actually. Sarcastic Jessica would be much more fun than boring apple-consumimg Eve…

    • eric

      It’s silly because the Bible is an amalgam of different God concepts, evolved over probably centuries or millennia, all thrown in together. And those concepts don’t fit together. A stone age tribe needs to pay a blood sacrifice to get their god to work a miracle? Makes sense in context. An iron age tri-omni being gives every human being eternal reward? Makes sense in context. The tri-omni being needs to pay a blood sacrifice to do the magic used to give every human being an eternal reward? Makes no sense when the two stories are combined.

      • Kevin K

        I just finished reading Twelve Emperors by Suetonius, about the 12 emperors starting with Julius Caesar. Fascinating stuff. Really. They were not like us at all. The amazing thing was the amount of time they spent performing sacrifices to the various gods and goddesses. Also, there were several variations of Jupiter (spelled Juppiter in my translation)…each of whom had a separate role and had to be appeased/sacrificed to.

        One of the entries was about a grand tour that one of the emperors made to the far-flung reaches of the empire. And Suetonius mentions that the emperor made sure to make offerings/sacrifices to all of the local gods … except for one Egyptian god and the Jewish god Jehovah. Suetonius thought this to be absolutely correct protocol — praiseworthy, even.

        I might need to make a project of finding much more about the everyday lives of the Roman people. I think it would explain a lot.

        • epicurus

          The HBO series “Rome” from the early 2000’s has a couple scenes of an average solider who is performing rituals at his household shrine. He’s a bit of a hard ass about making sure his household gods are respected if I remember correctly.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Vorenus_(Rome_character)

        • Kevin K

          Yes, that was a fascinating series. I really enjoyed it.

        • epicurus

          It’s a shame the set burned down otherwise they would have made more than two seasons.

        • Kevin K

          Is that what happened? That is a shame.

        • Bob Jase

          Considering how common city destroying fires were back then it could have been worked right into the storyline.

        • JP415

          Nero did it!

        • TheNuszAbides

          lol, and hazard pay into the bargain!

        • Otto

          How about the scene where Julia has the bull slaughtered above her and is showered with its blood…and then walks away as if it was the most normal thing a person could do.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUdxy836WY4

        • epicurus

          Yeah, good catch, I forgot about that.

        • Bob Jase

          Everybody showers. It was probably something Gywneth Paltrow suggested to her.

        • Pofarmer

          Yep. I think modern people would be amazed how absolutely superstitious everything was in that place at that time. They took their gods seriously.

        • JP415

          They also practiced “heptomancy”–predicting the future by looking at animal livers. The more you learn about the Romans, the weirder they seem.

    • God hit the Reset button with the Flood. You’d think he could do the same thing when things pissed him off in the Garden.

      But then you’ve opened the “How could God have been blindsided by the fiasco in the Garden?” question. Just don’t go there, i suppose.

      • Kevin K

        Except he didn’t there, either! Because the very next scene after they get off the stinking boat (OMG, the manure!) is Ham and all of his descendants being cursed forever because Ham had the misfortune to see his father naked (while Noah was passed out drunk).

        So, this one righteous man, the only one in the entire WORLD worthy of saving gets off the boat and proceeds to get blitz drunk, naked, and then gets pissed off because he was seen by his son…

        Yahweh needs a better HR director, if that’s the quality of his hires.

        • Pofarmer

          It’s pretty apparent the omniscient God is a later invention. The whole thing is just a mess. I still love the youtube video of scott clifton, aka Theoretical BS on Ponder God’s Plan.

        • Len

          The story grew in the telling. Originally, Superman could only leap tall buildings.

        • Pofarmer

          And it really grew AFTER the Bible was primarily laid down. It’s a bunch of theological hoscus pocus that gets us to the tri-omni 3 in 1 God that the Catholics manufactured to be bigger and badder than everyone else’ gods.

        • Greg G.

          Lot was the only righteous man in Sodom and he got drunk and had sex with his daughters, then blamed it all on them.

          Righteous must mean binge drinker.

        • Kevin K

          Aha! You’re right!!

          Which means I’m a righteous man!!

        • Otto

          That would make me rather righteous

        • TheMountainHumanist

          I’m assuming they pushed the manure off the side…right?

          To be fair…if I were Noah and had to put up with that…some wine imbibing would be in order.

        • Greg G.

          I’m assuming they pushed the manure off the side…right?

          That place is now known as Mar-a-Lago.

  • RichardSRussell

    How big a sacrifice can it be if you get to take it back a day and a half later?

    • Greg G.

      I gave up my cell phone for a day and a half once. That lasted 3 hours.

  • SparklingMoon,

    What I mean is, He’s the judge, and to forgive us, to simply let our sins go unpunished, would bypass His perfect justice.”
    ——————————————————————————————————————————————————–
    Indeed God Almighty is Merciful; rather, He is the Most Merciful of all. By virtue of His mercy, and not out of any limits in consideration of justice, He provides for His creation. The quality of being Master and the quality of justice are inconsistent with each other. Having been created by Him, we have no right to demand justice from Him. We supplicate Him humbly for mercy. It is most unbecoming for a creature to demand justice from God Almighty in His treatment of him.

    As everything relating to the nature of man is from God and all of man’s faculties, spiritual as well as physical, are His bounty and a good action can be performed only through the support and strength bestowed by Him, it would be the height of ignorance to demand justice from Him relying upon one’s good actions. We cannot consider such a teaching to be based on true knowledge. Indeed such a teaching is deprived of all true understanding and is full of folly. God Almighty has taught us in the Holy Quran that to call God Just vis-à-vis His creatures is not only a sin, but a rank blasphemy. (Ruhanikhazain)

    • Max Doubt

      “Indeed God Almighty is Merciful; rather, He is the Most Merciful of all. By virtue of His mercy, and not out of any limits in consideration of justice, He provides for His creation. The quality of being Master and the quality of justice are inconsistent with each other.”

      You can be subservient to the gods of your imagination, but if you think other people do share your imagination you’re batshit crazy, and if you think other people should share your imagination, you’re a dangerous motherfucker.

      “Having been created by Him, we have no right to demand justice from Him. We supplicate Him humbly for mercy.”

      You can wallow in a dream of running your tongue around the asshole of some magical cosmic master if that’s what trips your trigger, but I don’t kiss anyone’s or anything’s ass. That is especially true for things like the powerless gods that exist only in your imagination.

      “It is most unbecoming for a creature to demand justice from God Almighty in His treatment of him.”

      Nobody else here is demanding justice from any gods because we recognize gods as figments of your imagination.

      Oh, about that problem of yours where you don’t have a single fucking thought of your very own: You’re a pathetic person, a waste of food, space, and oxygen, pretty much useless to the rest of humanity. The world would likely be a better place if you would just die.

      • Kevin K

        It’s sado-masochism at its finest, isn’t it?

    • One of the problems with some religions is the built in notion that questioning any attributes of a god is blasphemy, heresy, punishable by death or eternal torment. Fear is built into the system to deter skepticism and questioning.

      • SparklingMoon,

        One of the problems with some religions is the built in notion that questioning any attributes of a god is blasphemy, heresy, punishable by death or eternal torment. Fear is built into the system to deter skepticism and questioning.
        ——————————————————————————————————————————————————-
        The word ‘ blasphemy ‘ in my post does not mean to deliver a message of punishment or fear for saying or asking about God Almighty or religion. I know the word ‘blasphemy’ has become notorious because of its misuse in the world of religion. The later coming followers of different prophets, (devoid of morality and spirituality) had invented this kind of words and suggested their own punishments to silent others and the purpose was to hide their hollowness. The life history of prophets show us different picture as people around them used to ask them questions frequently and they used to answer them in detail about religious matters. They never suggested to punish a person for asking or saying something against their views. Secondly, God Almighty also , according to His tradition, does not punish a person without delivering His message first and people are judged according to their knowledge and level of understanding.

        The message in my above post was just to make it clear that the notion that justice and mercy cannot subsist together in the Being of God Almighty, inasmuch as justice demands punishment and mercy demands forbearance, is an error in which short-sighted Christians (the followers of Trinity) are involved through lack of reflection. They do not reflect that the justice of God Almighty is also Mercy. The basic attribute of God is Mercy. Justice comes into play after reason and law have been established. Justice is also Mercy in another form. When a person is bestowed reason and through it he becomes aware of the limits and laws of God Almighty, he becomes subject to the demand of justice. But for Mercy there is no condition of reason and law. As God Almighty desired to exalt mankind through Mercy, He laid down the rules and limits of justice. Thus it is ignorance to imagine that there is contradiction between justice and Mercy.

        Secondly, the expression of Master can be applied in its fullness only to God for He alone is the Perfect Master and it is quite improper to bind a Master to act according to the principles of justice. We can affirm that He Who is Master is Merciful and Bestower and Generous and forgives sins, but we cannot say that He adheres to justice in respect of His creature, inasmuch as the notion of justice is only applicable where there is a certain freedom on both sides.

        For instance, we can say concerning worldly sovereigns that they are just and treat their subjects with justice. So long as their subjects obey them, the rule of justice makes it obligatory upon them that, in return for the obedience of their subjects and the payment of their dues, the sovereign should safeguard their lives and properties and in times of need should help them out of his wealth. Thus, from one aspect sovereigns impose their commands upon their subjects and from another aspect the subjects impose their wishes upon the sovereigns. So long as these aspects operate in cooperation, the country remains at peace, but when either side commits a default the country ceases to be at peace. This shows that we cannot describe a sovereign as a true Master for he has to behave justly towards his subjects and his subjects have to behave justly towards him

        As regards God Almighty, we can call Him Merciful on account of His being Master, but we cannot call Him just. Any person who is owned by another cannot demand justice from his owner, though he can humbly supplicate for mercy. That is why the Holy Book does not designate God Almighty as just, because justice demands mutual equality. God Almighty is Just in the sense that He acts justly as between creatures regarding their mutual rights, but He is not just in the sense that any creature of His might demand his right from Him as an associate. (Ruhanikhazain)

        • Max Doubt

          “The word ‘blasphemy’ in my post does not mean to deliver a message of punishment or fear for saying or asking about God Almighty or religion.”

          I don’t know why you’d give the time of day to such a weakling wussy god. You know I’d kick its ass any time you can get it to face me. I’ve made this challenge before, but everyone else’s gods were too cowardly to accept. How about yours?

        • SparklingMoon,

          Though different people, on account of their shortsightedness or lack of courage, appoint various types of objectives for their lives and stop short at worldly purposes and desires, yet the purpose that God Almighty has specified in His Holy Word is: ”I have created men so that they should recognition and worship Me (51:57) . According to this verse the true purpose of human life is the worship and understanding of God Almighty and devotion to Him.

          As the Being of God Almighty, despite its brilliance, is utterly hidden, this physical system that is spread out before our eyes is not alone sufficient for its recognition. That is why those who have depended upon this system and have observed carefully its perfect and complete orderliness together with all the wonders comprehended in it, and have thoroughly studied astronomy, physics, and philosophy, and have, as it were, penetrated into the heavens and the earth, have yet not been delivered from the darkness of doubts and suspicions. Many of them become involved in grave errors and wander far away in pursuit of their fancies. Their utmost conjecture is that this grand system which displays great wisdom must have a Maker, but this conjecture is incomplete and this insight is defective.

          God Almighty affirms His existence through His Word, as He has manifested it through His work, the observation of the work alone does not afford complete satisfaction.

          It is not correct to say that God spoke in the past but does not speak now. We cannot limit His Word or His discourse to any particular time. He is as ready today to enrich His seekers from the fountain of revelation as He was at any time, and the gates of His grace are as wide open today as they were at any time. True knowledge about God depends upon this that we should reach the Living God Who speaks clearly to His favourites and bestows satisfaction and contentment upon them with His Majestic and delicious speech. He speaks to them as one man speaks to another and converses with them as a certainty that is beyond doubt or suspicion. He listens to them and responds to them and hearing their supplications He informs them of their acceptance. (Ruhanikhazain)

        • Paul B. Lot

          Gesundheit!

        • Max Doubt

          “Though different people, on account of their shortsightedness or lack of courage,…”

          Hold the show there, preacher boy. The lack of courage is on your god. It is utterly powerless. The funny thing is, your god is a complete wuss, and you think it’s stronger than you. What a useless human being you are, eh?

          So I’ll repeat. There is nothing your god can do that I can’t do, and many things I can do that your god can’t. Put it in front of me and I’ll kick its ass. Why would you think of that weakling pussy god of yours as worthy of being called a god?

        • SparklingMoon,

          There is nothing your god can do that I can’t do, and many things I can do that your god can’t.
          ———————————————————————————————————–

          God Almighty says in His revelation [2:259] that hast thou not heard of him who disputed with Abraham about his Lord, because God Almighty had given him kingdom? When Abraham said, ‘My Lord is He Who gives life and causes death,’ he said, ‘I also give life and cause death.’ Abraham said, ‘Well, God Almighty brings the sun from the East; bring it thou from the West.’

          True knowledge about God depends upon this that we should reach the Living God Who speaks clearly to His favourites and bestows satisfaction and contentment
          upon them with His Majestic and delicious speech. He speaks to them as one man speaks to another and converses with them as a certainty that is beyond doubt or
          suspicion. He listens to them and responds to them and hearing their supplications He informs them of their acceptance. The religion which does not present God as possessing these attributes and confines faith to ancient tales and fables and such matters as are not seen or heard, is certainly not a true religion. To follow such a fictitious god is like expecting a corpse to work like living beings. A god who does not prove his own existence afresh every time is as if he does not exist. He is like an idol which neither speaks nor hears nor answers questions, nor can he manifest his power in such a manner that even a confirmed atheist should not be able to doubt it. (Ruhanikhazain)

    • Kevin K

      Quick question, how can I blaspheme against Allah? I’d like to do so so that you will give up your idiotic quest to convert us to your primitive cult.

      • Max Doubt

        “Quick question, how can I blaspheme against Allah? I’d like to do so so that you will give up your idiotic quest to convert us to your primitive cult.”

        I’ve been asking god believers for years to show us their gods can do anything I can’t do. I’ve been asking them for years to bring their gods to me, face to face, so that I, a mere human, can kick their asses and end that silly notion of powerful gods. Nobody has ever been confident enough of their gods’ powers to try to arrange such a thing.

        • Paul B. Lot

          They don’t want your blood on their hands.

          Also: my dad can beat up your dad.

        • Kevin K

          As a corollary to that, someone posted a thought experiment for believers.

          Think of the one thing you would do to improve the world if you were God. Then realize that he hasn’t done it.

        • Bob Jase

          Create a whole bunch of other gods so someone will finally have the time & power to answer prayers before they’re needed.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          This is great. Thanks for sharing.

        • Kevin K

          Wasn’t mine, but it is brilliant. I’m gonna use it some time.

        • RichardSRussell

          Captain America. Met 2 gods face to face. Still a Christian.

          Iron Man. Met 2 gods face to face. Still an atheist.

          The Hulk. Met 2 gods face to face. Kicked the shit out of both of them.

        • TheMountainHumanist

          Is Cap a Christian? I never knew that. What about Spiderman…I always imagined him as a non-practicing Episcopalian for some reason (maybe because Aunt May seems so New England prim).

          We know Daredevil is definitely Catholic.

        • RichardSRussell

          Is Cap a Christian? Well, I don’t know myself, I was just quoting the joke the way I heard it. But it makes sense: straight-arrow all-American patriot from WW2. Not the sort of guy to rock the boat with unconventional beliefs.

        • Anthrotheist

          Strictly from the movies, I recall a scene where a pilot said something like, “these guys are basically gods.” (referring to Thor and Loki)

          Cap replied, “There’s only one god, ma’am, and he doesn’t dress like that.”

        • TheMountainHumanist

          You can’t not exist….

    • Having been created by Him, we have no right to demand justice from Him.

      God gets to be an asshole just because? You’ve got a warped sense of morality.

      • eric

        Having been created by Him, we have no right to demand justice from Him.

        …said every child-beating parent…

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          Yeah, god as a parent would lose his children to the state in less than a year…. presuming he didn’t kill them first.

        • eric

          More like the first moments. Putting a giant death-to-everything button in the middle of your house, in easy reach of your kids, and then telling them “whatever you do, don’t push this button right here. This one. The one I’m pointing to” is criminal reckless endangerment at best. And that’s literally the first thing he does after creating the world.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          You are right, of course, I was just feeling generous.

        • Oh, give the guy a break. He was new at parenting, and he hadn’t kid-proofed the Garden.

        • Yup. Stockholm Syndrome. Or Battered-Wife Syndrome.

      • Pofarmer

        We are pretty much God’s pet, in that scenario.

        • Even Christians understand that we have moral obligations to pets. Not so God’s dealing with us, I suppose.

          And we’re back to God being an asshole.

        • SparklingMoon,

          God says, O My servants, do not despair of Me. I am Merciful and Benevolent and cover up sins and forgive them and am more Merciful towards you than anyone else. No one will have mercy on you as I have. Love me more than you love your fathers for I am greater in love than they are. If you come to me I shall forgive all your sins and if you repent, I shall accept your repentance. If you advance towards me slowly, I shall run to you. He who seeks Me shall find Me and He who turns to Me shall find My door open. I forgive the sins of a penitent even if they are more than the mountains. My mercy upon you is great and my wrath is little because you are My creatures. I have created you and therefore My mercy comprises all of you.

          Do not give up hope and do not be discouraged by the thought that you are involved in many sins and that your supplications cannot have much effect. Man has been created for the love of God and even if he is aroused by the fire of sin, he possesses the faculty of repentance which can put out that fire. You will have observed that however much water is heated, yet when it is poured over fire it puts the fire out. Ever since God Almighty has created man, his heart has always been cleansed through this means. That is to say that without the Living God manifesting His existence and power and Godhead through word and action, and displaying His shining Majesty,man cannot be purified from sin by any other means. (Ruhanikhazain)

        • Paul B. Lot

          *farting noise*

    • JustAnotherAtheist2

      LOL! This is satire, right?

      • JP415

        We can only hope!

      • Clint W. (Thought2Much)

        Who the hell would spend this much effort on satire?

        • TheNuszAbides

          that’s definitely dragging on too long with no payoff.

    • JP415

      God Almighty has taught us in the Holy Quran that to call God Just vis-à-vis His creatures is not only a sin, but a rank blasphemy.

      Well, you’re entitled to believe that if you want, but you haven’t given us any reason to agree with your beliefs. Nobody is going to take you seriously if you just make a bunch of bare assertions without any evidence to back them up.

      • SparklingMoon,

        The discussion is that according to the followers of Trinity the attribute of justice and mercy cannot subsist together in the Being of God Almighty. This notion is wrong as God Almighty in not only Forgiving but also an absolute Master. He promises always in His revelation to forgive our sins and secondly He is absolute Master and nobody can interfere or stop Him to make any decision in the name of justice.

        It is explained by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed in his writings that the expression of Master can be applied in its fullness only to God for He alone is the Perfect Master and it is quite improper to bind a Master to act according to the principles of justice. We can affirm that He Who is Master is Merciful and Bestower and Generous and forgives sins, but we cannot say that He adheres to justice in respect of His creature, inasmuch as the notion of justice is only applicable where there is a certain freedom on both sides.

        For instance, we can say concerning worldly sovereigns that they are just and treat their subjects with justice. So long as their subjects obey them, the rule of justice makes it obligatory upon them that, in return for the obedience of their subjects and the payment of their dues, the sovereign should safeguard their lives and properties and in times of need should help them out of his wealth. Thus, from one aspect sovereigns impose their commands upon their subjects and from another aspect the subjects impose their wishes upon the sovereigns. So long as these aspects operate in cooperation, the country remains at peace, but when either side commits a default the country ceases to be at peace. This shows that we cannot describe a sovereign as a true Master for he has to behave justly towards his subjects and his subjects have to behave justly towards him

        As regards God Almighty, we can call Him Merciful on account of His being Master, but we cannot call Him just. Any person who is owned by another cannot demand justice from his owner, though he can humbly supplicate for mercy. That is why the Holy Book does not designate God Almighty as just, because justice demands mutual equality. God Almighty is Just in the sense that He acts justly as between creatures regarding their mutual rights, but He is not just in the sense that any creature of His might demand his right from Him as an associate.

        • JP415

          But how do you know all that? Citing the Qu’ran or an Islamic scholar isn’t going to convince anyone who isn’t a Muslim already.

        • SparklingMoon,

          Discussion is about the attributes of God Almighty and there is no discussion of difference between as all prophets have told the same about His attributes.

        • Michael Neville

          Before we can discuss the attributes of your god, you have to show its existence. Discussing the attributes of a figment of the imagination is a meaningless effort.

    • eric

      Indeed God Almighty is Merciful; rather, He is the Most Merciful of all.

      Nope, I’m more merciful than he. Because I would save those in hell, and he won’t.

      • SparklingMoon,

        Nope, I’m more merciful than he. Because I would save those in hell, and he won’t.
        ——————————————————————————————————————
        God Almighty through His prophets and scriptures makes it clear that He has made man, not for consignment to everlasting torments, but for attainment to higher and higher conditions of existence and to deal with him most mercifully. It is true that the scriptures mention hell as the abode of evil-doers and even depicts its horrors, but according to the Holy Book both heaven and hell are places for the perpetual advancement of man to higher and higher stages. God Almighty says in His revelation: “Verily you shall all be surely transformed from state to state” ( 84:19).

        The whole mankind is addressed in these words and accordingly, as those in paradise shall make perpetual advancement, those in hell will not be suffering fruitless torments.
        On the other hand, the torments of hell will be the means of purging them of the evil effects of their deeds done in this life.

        God Almighty also teaches in His revelation that heaven and hell grow out of a man; that a heavenly or hellish life begins in this world and that the spiritual fruits of good or evil deeds done in this life assume a manifest form in the next. The fire of hell is no other than the fire of sins as God Almighty reveals: “The fire of the wrath of God burned on account of sins which rise above the hearts.” The origin of the fire of hell is, therefore, in the sins which a man commits in this life, that he prepares a hell in which he will find himself in the next.

        Secondly God Almighty does not says in His revelation that those in hell shall suffer everlasting torments; and this is an important consideration which conclusively settles the question that hell is meant for the advancement of man and for his purification. God Almighty has given hell with the name of ‘mother’ ( 101: 6) of those who shall go into it. The use of this word is a clear evidence as to the true nature of hell as described by God Almighty in the Quran. What is meant is that, as a child is brought up by the mother, so those in hell will be brought up in that place for a new life, the life of perpetual advancement in paradise.

        It is true that God Almighty speaks of hell as a place of torment or tortures, but these torments according to the Holy Book are remedial. Just as a patient has to devour bitter medicines and undergo operations and amputations which are most painful, but which are undoubtedly the only steps which can restore him to health; so also it is with torments of hell. They are not only the natural consequences of the poison of sins, but, at the same time, the torments are the most necessary steps to undo the effect of the poison and breath into a person a new life in which he must go on making unending progress. Thus hell is also a manifestation of the mercy of God, though of different kind, from heaven.

        • eric

          the torments of hell will be the means of purging them of the evil effects of their deeds done in this life…

          …these torments according to the Holy Book are remedial. Just as a patient has to devour bitter medicines and undergo operations and amputations which are most painful, but which are undoubtedly the only steps which can restore him to health; so also it is with torments of hell.

          But God is omnipotent. He doesn’t need medicines. If I had his powers, I would [snap fingers, purge of evil]. I would [snap fingers, restore]. To say that the torments of hell are the only steps that can restore a person is to deny God’s omnipotence. That’s blasphemy.

          So, either (a) I’m more merciful, because I’d grant a mercy God can grant, but doesn’t, or (b) You defend the claim that I’m not more merciful by blasphemously asserting that God is not omnipotent and the mercy I’d grant is something God is impotent to do.

        • SparklingMoon,

          But God is omnipotent. He doesn’t need medicines. If I had his powers, I would [snap fingers, purge of evil]. I would [snap fingers, restore]. To say that the torments of hell are the only steps that can restore a person is to deny God’s omnipotence. That’s blasphemy.
          —————————————————————————————————————————

          Firstly, in my previous post the description of medicine is not for God Almighty. It is about human beings as they have to take sometimes bitter medicines to bring their diseased body again in a healthy condition as humans souls, who enter in the next world in a diseased condition, have to pass through a procedure of reformation. Secondly, we as a human beings can not interfere in the practice of God’s attributes. He gives punishment to transgressors and forgives also as He is absolute Masters. You are right that God Almighty is certainly an omnipotent God but you are me can not force Him in the name of His omnipotence to forgive always. For example our human nature is shadow of God’s attributes and we practice them on earth. In the whole world you will not find a country that is without the laws of punishments for law breakers. The purpose of the existence of these punishment laws in a constitution does not mean to harm but to safe individuals and society from loss and danger. According to the Holy Book, all God’s doings are as Master. As He punishes sin so He also forgives sin. He has power to do both. If He were always to punish sin there would be no escape for man, but God forgives most sins and punishes some so that a heedless person being warned should attend to Him. As He says in His revelation: Whatever misfortune befalls you is in consequence of that which you practise. He pardons many of your sins, and punishes some” (42:30)

        • eric

          you are [and] me can not force Him in the name of His omnipotence to forgive always.

          If he were perfectly merciful, he’d forgive everyone simply because he wanted to. But he doesn’t want to – because he’s not perfectly merciful. He’s in fact less merciful than many humans, who would happily (a) purge someone of evil without punishing them with torture first, and (b) not even leave unpurged evil people in a torturous hell for all eternity.

          The reasons humans use laws and punishments is because we can’t [snap fingers, make people good]. Laws and punishments are our way of dealing with our imperfection and lack of omnipotence. God shouldn’t need any such system of punishments for bad behavior, because he could do what we can’t, and simply fix them.

        • SparklingMoon,

          If he were perfectly merciful, he’d forgive everyone simply because he wanted to. But he doesn’t want to – because he’s not perfectly merciful.
          ——————————————————————————————
          Actually there is a misunderstanding about hell . It is true that in all scriptures hell is described as the abode of evil-doers and even depicts its horrors, but according to the Holy Book both heaven and hell are places for the perpetual advancement of man to higher and higher stages.God Almighty has informed in His revelation: “Verily you shall all be surely transformed from state to state” (84:19). The whole mankind is addressed in these words and accordingly, as those in paradise shall make perpetual advancement, those in hell will not be suffering fruitless torments. On the other hand, the torments of hell will be the means of purging them of the evil effects of their deeds done in this life.

          They are not only the natural consequences of the poison of sins, but, at the same time, the torments are the most necessary steps to undo the effect of the poison and breath into a person a new life in which he must go on making unending progress. Thus hell is also a manifestation of the mercy of God, though of different kind, from heaven. The one, hell, is a place for restoring health to those who have destroyed it by their own actions in this life, while the other, heaven, is a place for the advancement of those who enter into the other life with their spiritual faculties unvitiated.

          Again and again, the Holy Book speaks of the workers of iniquity as blind, deaf, dumb, dead, meaning of course that they themselves have wasted their spiritual faculties, and accordingly, before they can make any spiritual advancement in the attainment of that highest goal of the human soul, the union of God, they must be subjected to the operations which should restore the action of those faculties. In clearer words, the Holy Quran tells us that “those who are blind in this life shall find themselves blind in the next,” which means that as they did not make use of the opportunities, given to them in this life, to use their spiritual faculties, they will find themselves devoid of these faculties in the next, and will palpably feel the pain and anguish which are the necessary result of their loss and which they were unable to feel in this life because of their engrossment in worldly things.

          Hell is called in the Holy Book a “mother” of those who shall go into it. The use of this word is the clearest evidence as to the true nature of hell. What is meant is that, as a child is brought up by the mother, so those in hell will be brought up in that place for a new life, the life of perpetual advancement in paradise.

        • eric

          according to the Holy Book both heaven and hell are places for the perpetual advancement of man to higher and higher stages

          You’re simply repeating yourself, and making no attempt to address my actual argument. An omnipotent God has no need of a ‘place of advancement’ – he can just [snap fingers, we’re all advanced]. If God has a hellish place full of torment for the purposes of human advancement, that means he either can’t advance people without the torment, or he doesn’t want to advance people without the torment. IOW he’s either not omnipotent or not merciful.

          accordingly, before they can make any spiritual advancement in the attainment of that highest goal of the human soul, the union of God, they must be subjected to the operations which should restore the action of those faculties.

          In that case, the Quran is claiming God is not omnipotent. If the Quran says people must be subjected to these operations, then it’s saying God can’t restore those faculties without the operation. So not omnipotent.

        • SparklingMoon,

          An omnipotent God has no need of a ‘place of advancement’ – he can just [snap fingers, we’re all advanced]. If God has a hellish place full of torment for the purposes of human advancement, that means he either can’t advance people without the torment, or he doesn’t want to advance people without the torment. IOW he’s either not omnipotent or not merciful.
          ————————————————————————-
          God Almighty certainly has power to forgive us and to safe us from the bad consequences of our sins but who has this knowledge that when and where He will use His which attribute. He has told in His scriptures that he is not only Merciful but also severe in punishment: ”Know that God Almighty is severe in punishment, but that He (also) is Forgiving, Merciful. (5:98). We should not confine His attribute to His Mercy only.

          Human nature is a reflection of God’s attributes and the laws that we maintain in our worldly system, reflect the attributes of our nature. We will not see a worldly government that rewards equally to all its citizen either one is a follower of its laws or transgressor. I do not think that we as a human being would recommend to bestow a certificate of doctorate to a person who has never visited even a school? Do you think that there will be the same consequences for both if one person uses his sight to avoid a hole to fell in and the second one steps in without using his sight? I mean we should not expect from God Almighty to use His attributes in a way that are not used even by a sane human being in this world.

          Secondly, It is very important to improve our conception about hell as it not something that would be prepared by God Almighty later on. It is just a human condition that is a part of our nature. This condition of a person starts in this world as a part of God’s system. God Almighty says in His revelation that He who is blind in this world shall be blind in the hereafter . This shows that a person takes with him from this world the eyes with which to behold God Almighty and the senses with which to perceive Him. He who does not acquire these senses in this life will not enjoy them in the hereafter. This is a mystery which is not understood by the common people. If its meaning is not that which we have set forth, then it is entirely wrong that those who are blind in this world shall be blind in the hereafter. The truth is that to recognise God Almighty without any error and to acquire a true understanding of His attributes in this world is the key to all comforts and delights of the future. This verse clearly indicates that we carry a torment with us from this world and that the blind existence and foul actions of this world will appear in the form of the torment of hell in the other world and they will not be anything new. As by shutting the doors of a room a person deprives himself of light and of fresh life-giving air, or by swallowing a poison he puts an end to his life, in the same way, when he moves away from God and commits sin, he falls into a darkness and is involved in torment.

          The meaning of sin, is to incline and to move away from the true centre. When a person moves away from God and withdraws from the light which descends upon the hearts from God, he is involved in a darkness which becomes a source of torment for him. Then he suffers the same type of torment of which type is his turning away. If he wishes to revert to the centre and transports himself to the spot where that light falls, he regains the light. As we observe in the world that we enjoy light in a room when we open its windows, in the same way, in the spiritual system to return to the true centre becomes the source of comfort and rescues from the suffering which had resulted from departing from the centre. This is called repentance. The darkness that is produced in this manner is called the misguidance of hell and to revert to the true centre which bestows comfort is called heaven. To move away from sin and to revert to virtue that would please God Almighty, becomes the atonement of the sin and wipes out its consequences. (Ruhanikhazain)

    • RichardSRussell

      OK, you can copy and paste with the best of them. Too bad that you weren’t able to pass any of that thru a rational thot process on the way here.

      Look, just because you say something (or quote somebody else saying something) gives us absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe it. You start off here with a modicum of credibility, just out of courtesy, but you long ago used up your entire supply, and now you’re just seen as a blithering troll. Try using explanations instead of just didactic statements if you’re actually trying to accomplish something other than annoying the hell out of everybody.

  • TheMountainHumanist

    Looks like a fine book @BobSeidensticker:disqus .

    But…we need to spice it up..a few more sex scenes…re-titled 50 Shades of Cross?

  • TheNuszAbides

    You are the authority.

    i spent so many years fearing this attitude as ‘arrogance’ that my self-confidence is still hobbled by the conditioning.