Footprints

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the Lord.

“Thou hast covered with anger, and persecuted us: thou hast slain, thou hast not pitied. Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.”

—Lamentations 3:43-44

Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand: one belonging to him, and the other to the Lord.

“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able… There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.”

—Luke 13:23-28

When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life.

“I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh. When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you, then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me.”

—Proverbs 1:26-28

This really bothered him and he questioned the Lord about it:

“Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you, you’d walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don’t understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.”

“Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them… And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him… And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.”

—Matthew 25:1-12

The Lord replied:

“My son, my precious child, I love you and I would never leave you.”

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

—Matthew 25:41

“During your times of trial and suffering…”

“But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.”

—Luke 12:5

“…when you see only one set of footprints…”

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

—Revelation 20:15

“…it was then that I carried you.”

“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.”

—Revelation 14:10-11

About Adam Lee

Adam Lee is an atheist writer and speaker living in New York City. His new novel, Broken Ring, is available in paperback and e-book. Read his full bio, or follow him on Twitter.

  • http://www.freemindjoe.blogspot.com Greg

    Great post. What a novel idea to juxtapose this sappy popular little poem of a Love God with hellfire and brimstone scripture! Bravo!

  • http://www.patheos.com/blog/daylightatheism/ Ebonmuse

    I’m not hesitant to say I laughed out loud when I came up with the idea, and if any theists had been in the room with me at the time, they would have gone away terrified. It was that kind of laugh. ;)

  • Andreas

    Nice contrast there: the infinitely loving god we so often hear about from Christians, and the cruel one we read about in their sacred scriptures.

  • http://rightside.fissure.org/ Shishberg

    Brilliant post. My personal addition to this would be:

    And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.”–Genesis 6:6-7 (ESV)

  • Alex Weaver

    Here’s my Biblically correct interpretation of the poem:

    One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the Lord.

    Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand: one belonging to him, and the other to the Lord.

    When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life.

    This really bothered him and he questioned the Lord about it:

    “Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you, you’d walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don’t understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.”

    The Lord replied: “DAMNED SHALL THEY HOUSE BE! THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION MY POWER, NOR SHALT THOU DEFY ME FURTHER!” and struck him down with a plague, incinerated his hometown with a rain of fire, and cursed the next dozen-odd generations of even his distant relatives’ children.

  • E.B.

    This reminded me of something Married to the Sea put up a while ago. Heh.

  • http://toomanytribbles.blogspot.com toomanytribbles

    you have, of course, seen this take somewhere?

  • Nicogo

    Reminds me of a Simon and Garfunkel recording I’ve heard in which “Silent Night” is juxtaposed with snatches of the 7 o’clock news from the civil rights/Vietnam War era. (I wasn’t around in those days, but my parents were. :-P) Really, someone should make a recording of children singing “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so…” juxtaposed with some of the verses Ebonmuse has given here — especially the ones spoken by Jesus himself. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Dan Barker or someone has already done this.

    And thanks for reminding me of Matthew 25:41. I couldn’t remember if Jesus ever states in the gospels the full-fledged modern Christian conception of hell, or just “weeping and gnashing of teeth” for not getting to party with Abraham and the prophets. (Umm…would you weep and gnash your teeth over that…?). But “everlasting fire”, yeah, that’s close enough.

  • tobe38

    Brilliant!

    Do not pass go. Do not collect £200. Go directly to the Must-Read Posts section.

    When I was a child we had a tea-tray (suddenly very aware of how English I must sound) with that poem on and I was always quite moved by it. Since I deconverted I’ve often thought back and felt quite resentful of it, maybe even a little bitter. I already know that the memory of this satirical post will place it in the perspective it requires.

  • http://www.myspace.com/stevebel a sinking ship

    Excellent post! That little theist creation has always struck me as rather onesided. Keep up the excellent work, and I’m loving the look for your site.

  • SM

    “Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so…”

    [frightened]That phrase didn’t originate as a parody?[/frightened] What an odd species we are…

  • Aerik

    I like the alterations on that ‘poem’ done for the “God Who Wasn’t There” soundtrack.

    -That was when I carried you.

    –What? My dog died. My sister was in a car accident. Instead of carrying me, why couldn’t you just prevent all these bad things from happening in the first place, you fucking prick?

    -Foolish human. Do not question me. I am the lord.

    –I just don’t get why so many people have to suffer, just so you can carry us on the beach.

    -That’s my thing. I fuck with you. Then I carry you.

  • http://www.auniversenamedbob.com Matt R

    Hello everyone,

    Do you think that God is unjust to punish anyone or do you think that the punishment is excessive? Clearly some people deserve punishment for the way they have lived their lives. Half of the POE is centered around the horrible things people do to each other. It is not consistent condemn God while exonerating the actual culprit of the crimes?

    Just to save you the trouble, I realize that human actions do not solve the natural evil side of the POE.

    I am just curious why anyone would expect any sort of good God to leave evil people unpunished. Punishment is not for everyone, only the guilty.

    On an entirely different track,

    Aerik, your post was really funny.

    Cheers,

    M.R.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blog/daylightatheism/ Ebonmuse

    If there were a god who was concerned with justice, I wouldn’t object to him punishing wrongdoers as they deserve. In fact, I would insist on it. The problem, as I see it, is threefold:

    1. The punishment for any wrong act should be proportionate to the act itself. The Bible goes horribly astray here, threatening people with literally eternal punishment, a fate which no finite human being could ever do anything to merit. Furthermore, this punishment is doled out to all wrongdoers alike, without regard to the severity of their crime.

    2. The purpose of punishment should be to reform the offender and bring him to an appreciation of the wrongness of his act. Punishment that is inflicted not for rehabilitation, but only for the sake of causing suffering, is more properly classified as torture. Since the Bible depicts Hell as never-ending, it falls into that ignominious category as well.

    3. Punishment should only be decreed for acts that are actually crimes, that is to say, acts that needlessly harm others. The Bible, however, envisions one’s private choice of belief as a potential sin deserving of condemnation, regardless of how one treats others. That is a truly abhorrent view of morality.

  • James Bradbury

    I’m guessing here but maybe most Christians like to think that hell is for whichever group of people they personally don’t like, be it atheists, Muslims, gays or even something a bit more sensible like racists.

    Perhaps in that sense, hell is personal? But still, something for “those other people”.

  • http://www.auniversenamedbob.com Matt R

    Ebonmuse,

    I agree that the traditional view of hell is not rational, and my reasons are very similar to your reasons. I must assume then that your parody of the poem is an ironic observation on the beliefs of mainstream Christianity. If you are wondering, for a long time I parroted the same lines like “God is just as well as loving” and “Sin is soooooooo bad that is must be severely punished.” Once I started to think about it and questions my presuppositions, then it very quickly became clear that infinite torture for eternal eternity seemed irrational, unjust, and, well….evil.

    To be completely honest, I think that God will punish those people who sin according to their sins. There are many places in the bible that speak this way. Most Christians explain these verses by saying there will be degrees of hell. That is unsatisfactory because the punishment, although perhaps not infinite in intensity, is still infinite in duration. I think that those verses actually indicate that the punishment will happen and be done with.

    There are also verses that speak of men being judged according to their actions, according to what they have been given, and men being justified by their consciences and naturally following the law of God. These verses are not focused on because they seem to contradict the concept of “saved by grace” but they are there regardless and cannot be denied. I do not think that God will punish someone for not knowing the unknowable. That is irrational and absurd.

    Cheers,

    M.R.

  • http://www.auniversenamedbob.com Matt R

    James Bradbury,

    Yes, some Christians are quite egotistical in this way. The bible is clear that there are those who look like the real thing who will be punished as God can see through the facade.

    Cheers,

    M.R.

  • Jack Walsh

    I like Ellen Degeneris’ ending, which was the sufferer being forced to carry god. A particularly nice tweak would be the intentional infliction of enough suffering to make the sufferer compliant to carrying god.

  • mjjp

    One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the Lord.

    Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand: one belonging to him, and the other to the Lord.

    When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life.

    This really bothered him and he questioned the Lord about it:

    “Lord, you said that once I decided to follow you, you’d walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don’t understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.”

    The Lord replied: It was during these times I was most proud of you. You stood up like the man you are and needed no help from me.

  • mjjpskeptic

    mjjp, your punchline is non-sensical mush. According to you, during a man’s lowest moments God leaves him because he really needs no help, and God wants him to make Him proud. Yet God is walking beside him the rest of the time, when he’s doing fine and doesn’t need God’s help. So is your version of God just some kind of fair-weather deity, or is it of a God who likes to walk beside people who don’t need him for no apparent reason? Or are you just another purveyor of ill thought out, silly God homilies.

  • AJS

    Just found this via GiFS.

    Brilliant!

    Nicogo — I can almost hear in my head what you’re proposing; only I’m hearing the children sing “All things bright and beautiful” while a priest calls out the fire and brimstone stuff.

    Matt R — one resolution to the Problem of Evil as you explain it, is to suppose, for just one brief split-second, that God might actually be fake.

    See also the Wikipedia entries for Milgram experiment (obedience to authority) and Stanford prison experiment (effects of situation on behaviour).

  • AJS

    Just found this via GiFS.

    Brilliant!

    Nicogo — I can almost hear in my head what you’re proposing; only I’m hearing the children sing “All things bright and beautiful” while a priest calls out the fire and brimstone stuff.

    Matt R — one resolution to the Problem of Evil as you explain it, is to suppose, for just one brief split-second, that God might actually be fake.

    See also the Wikipedia entries for Milgram experiment (obedience to authority) and Stanford prison experiment (effects of situation on behaviour).

  • http://www.patheos.com/blog/daylightatheism/ Ebonmuse
  • AJS

    Sorry — didn’t have time to read everything on the site :) Making up for it now …..

  • AJS

    Sorry — didn’t have time to read everything on the site :) Making up for it now …..

  • MJJP

    mjjp, your punchline is non-sensical mush. According to you, during a man’s lowest moments God leaves him because he really needs no help, and God wants him to make Him proud.
    =======
    Exactly right! Isn’t Christianity all about changing oneself into something better? Isn’t it constantly drilled into the Christian how insignificant they are? This is a type of bootcamp according to Christians where you suffer and endure then you get the prize.
    ================

    Yet God is walking beside him the rest of the time, when he’s doing fine and doesn’t need God’s help.
    ======================
    Right again! Why would a God step in if his underling is doing fine? As a parent I was willing to let my children fall down and learn but not to the point of playing in traffic.
    =============================

    So is your version of God just some kind of fair-weather deity, or is it of a God who likes to walk beside people who don’t need him for no apparent reason? Or are you just another purveyor of ill thought out, silly God homilies.
    =============
    A purveyor of ill thought? Hardly! I don’t believe in a God and there is no evidence that one exists. Not having an answer to a question or mystery does not default to the presence of the supernatural.On the contrary I am a purveyor of good news in that I believe man is inherantly good and does not need an eye in the sky in order to do good. Who is the better person, one who does good because he expects to be rewarded in the hereafter or one who does good because it is the right thing to do?
    ==================

    Comment by: mjjpskeptic | April 29, 2007, 6:09 pm

  • Jeremy

    Call me close-minded, but am I the only one who looks at the whole text of Scripture, and not just the parts that deal with eternal damnation?

    Because, if we’re playing a game where we take the Holy Word of God out of context, I can alter His meaning to say just about anything, really.

    But, if you’re interested in making an actual argument for your point, you really must consider everything that His Word says.

    God created man for His Glory. We are created beings. God intended for us to live in His perfection. We couldn’t follow through. We are human; we messed up. This separates us from God. And yes, that means eternal separation. Most people would call that Hell.

    But (and here’s the part you all have skipped over) there’s something else that God did to reconcile this separation. In sending Jesus to the earth, God offered His Son as a pure and holy sacrifice, so that this concept of Hell that everyone is so wary of doesn’t have to be a reality for anyone. Through Christ Jesus, we can bypass damnation and spend eternity with God.

    And why does everyone fail to mention all the times that God blessed His people? Why is everyone so quick to point out where God brings punishment upon those who deserve punishment? Why does no one want to talk about the innumerable people who witnessed the miracles of Christ?

    So many Scriptures point to the lovingkindness of God, but none of them get mentioned here. Hrm… why is that?

    ” ‘For I know the plans I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.’ ” Jeremiah 29:11

    “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 6:23

    “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.” -Romans 8:1

    “But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” -Romans 3:21-24

    Obviously, if you look at Scripture objectively, you see a God who, yes, is just to punish, but also loves His creation and wishes to spend eternity with each of us.

    As I close, I also want to remind you that God sends no man to Hell; that is a decision that everyone makes for themselves. If you chose to ignore the Gift He sent, His Son, Jesus, then you are ingoring the redeeming power of Christ’s blood and, thus, the atonement for your sin. And you have absolutely every right to make that choice; God gave us free will. But you must understand the consequences of every action you make.

    So to say that God is unjust is unfounded and narrow-minded; He created a way for each one of us to experience His love and righteousness for all of eternity. Take another look at your copy of God’s Word.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blog/daylightatheism/ Ebonmuse

    Call me close-minded, but am I the only one who looks at the whole text of Scripture, and not just the parts that deal with eternal damnation?

    Perhaps your view is being shaped by your preconceived belief in the goodness of the Bible. Has that possibility occurred to you?

    Many atheists, including myself, have read the Bible and came away less convinced of Christianity, not more. In fact, sitting down and reading the Bible is a very common factor in starting ex-Christians on the road to atheism. As I wrote in “A Book of Blood“:

    In reality, God as depicted in scripture is a very different being. The verses extolling his love and mercy are far outnumbered by those that depict him as a cruel, wrathful, warlike tyrant, swift to exact terrible revenge for even minor acts of disobedience. The few verses in the Bible such as the ones cited above are islands in an sea of blood, death, and destruction – both commanded by God and committed by him directly.

    See also my post “The Bible Is Not a Book of Love“.

    And why does everyone fail to mention all the times that God blessed His people? Why is everyone so quick to point out where God brings punishment upon those who deserve punishment? Why does no one want to talk about the innumerable people who witnessed the miracles of Christ?

    Because Christians already emphasize those verses ad nauseam, and most of them are so bathed in that one-sided presentation that they’re not even aware that there’s another, darker side to the Bible. In juxtaposing this common piece of cloying sentimentality with a more accurate depiction of the Christian god as shown by scripture, I intended to make that contrast clear.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blog/daylightatheism/ Ebonmuse

    Call me close-minded, but am I the only one who looks at the whole text of Scripture, and not just the parts that deal with eternal damnation?

    Perhaps your view is being shaped by your preconceived belief in the goodness of the Bible. Has that possibility occurred to you?

    Many atheists, including myself, have read the Bible and came away less convinced of Christianity, not more. In fact, sitting down and reading the Bible is a very common factor in starting ex-Christians on the road to atheism. As I wrote in “A Book of Blood“:

    In reality, God as depicted in scripture is a very different being. The verses extolling his love and mercy are far outnumbered by those that depict him as a cruel, wrathful, warlike tyrant, swift to exact terrible revenge for even minor acts of disobedience. The few verses in the Bible such as the ones cited above are islands in an sea of blood, death, and destruction – both commanded by God and committed by him directly.

    See also my post “The Bible Is Not a Book of Love“.

    And why does everyone fail to mention all the times that God blessed His people? Why is everyone so quick to point out where God brings punishment upon those who deserve punishment? Why does no one want to talk about the innumerable people who witnessed the miracles of Christ?

    Because Christians already emphasize those verses ad nauseam, and most of them are so bathed in that one-sided presentation that they’re not even aware that there’s another, darker side to the Bible. In juxtaposing this common piece of cloying sentimentality with a more accurate depiction of the Christian god as shown by scripture, I intended to make that contrast clear.

  • Wedge

    so you default to some other, even more improbable idea and say, “Viola.”

    What do stringed instruments have to do with it? Can he say “Violin” instead?

    (Sorry, couldn’t help picking the nit. It’s “Voila.”)

  • Ric

    Brilliant post. Adam, I look forward to your book more and more every day.

  • Ric

    Brilliant post. Adam, I look forward to your book more and more every day.

  • http://www.sirthinkalot.wordpress.com Sir-Think-A-Lot

    So we have a God who carries people through times of toughness, but is unafraid to punish the wicked. Whats the big deal?

  • Crotch

    Define “good”, “wicked”, and “punish”.

  • Crotch

    Define “good”, “wicked”, and “punish”.

  • Brad

    But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

    The big deal is that God does not carry people through times of toughness.

  • steve ross

    I”m not quite sure what your point is here. You seem to focus on verses that show the wrath of God, while comparing this to a poem that was not in scripture, merely a poem written by a woman. Doesn’t a child need consequences when he/ or she misbehaves against the parents? The child is still loved, but must be taught lovingly, but firmly. Why don’t you quote the verses of the Bible as they are used in context to show that the punishments and warnings here are due to the people disobeying God, and not following Jesus Christ. The Bible doesn’t ask you do anything evil to anyone. The Bible, and Jesus Christ only teach things which even non beleivers would deem as good and not harmful. Also, if you are an atheist, why do you bother trying to convince others of that? If you don’t want to beleive in God, then so be it, and leave it at that if you choose. I will pray for you still, that you might find God and the love and salvation of Jesus Christ. Steve R.

  • steve ross

    I”m not quite sure what your point is here. You seem to focus on verses that show the wrath of God, while comparing this to a poem that was not in scripture, merely a poem written by a woman. Doesn’t a child need consequences when he/ or she misbehaves against the parents? The child is still loved, but must be taught lovingly, but firmly. Why don’t you quote the verses of the Bible as they are used in context to show that the punishments and warnings here are due to the people disobeying God, and not following Jesus Christ. The Bible doesn’t ask you do anything evil to anyone. The Bible, and Jesus Christ only teach things which even non beleivers would deem as good and not harmful. Also, if you are an atheist, why do you bother trying to convince others of that? If you don’t want to beleive in God, then so be it, and leave it at that if you choose. I will pray for you still, that you might find God and the love and salvation of Jesus Christ. Steve R.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blog/daylightatheism Ebonmuse

    The Bible doesn’t ask you do anything evil to anyone. The Bible, and Jesus Christ only teach things which even non beleivers would deem as good and not harmful.

    Ha ha ha! Oh man, sometimes it’s too easy.

  • Alex Weaver

    merely a poem written by a woman.

    What’s that supposed to mean?

    Doesn’t a child need consequences when he/ or she misbehaves against the parents?

    A child needs to be disciplined in a fashion appropriate and proportionate to the actual offense, accompanied by a clear explanation of why the child’s behavior is wrong and why it resulted in the parent’s actions, when he or she behaves in a fashion that actually harms someone or is likely to. God’s wrath, as depicted, fails every element of this.

    The child is still loved, but must be taught lovingly, but firmly.

    Am I to understand that you actually believe that what is depicted in the bible verses Ebon quotes constitutes “teaching lovingly, but firmly?” Burning someone alive in hell forever, after a person dies, with no escape and no chance to learn from the experience and apply it in life, is “teaching lovingly but firmly?”

    Let me put it this way. Earlier today my four year old, mildly autistic daughter, after a somewhat stressful morning, began throwing a tantrum, essentially due to the symptoms of autism sometimes called “rules,” in which she becomes extremely agitated when things are changed or not done a certain way. Her mother and I told her to calm down, and after a moment I told her to go to her room and sit on her bed for a time-out if she was going to act like this, which made her scream and whine harder. She initially refused to stay there, but I told her firmly that she needed to. We went back and forth with it a bit, but eventually, as she was calming down but still crying a bit, I came in and sat with her and explained that it was okay for people to change things in her environment, that she needed to not act like this because it made her look foolish and hurt other people’s ears, and a few other things. She calmed down and was allowed to go off of time-out, and was fine for quite a while after that.

    Apparently, in your mind, the appropriate response would be to leave her home alone, watch her behavior from a security camera, offer no guidance or support or teaching whatsoever, and then, after she fell asleep, grab her, throw her in the oven, lock it, and set it to “Clean.”

    Please tell me that you don’t have children of your own. …and that you don’t have them because they were never born, not because you decided to “teach them lovingly, but firmly.”

    Why don’t you quote the verses of the Bible as they are used in context to show that the punishments and warnings here are due to the people disobeying God, and not following Jesus Christ.

    First, that would have to actually be wrong; since it doesn’t harm anyone (God, after all, is indestructible), how can it be? Second, even if it was, refer to my earlier point about making punishments appropriate, proportionate, and providing clear guidance (obvious myths in a jumbled book riddled with scientific and historical absurdities whose intended import no two people familiar with it entirely agree upon don’t count).

    The Bible doesn’t ask you do anything evil to anyone. The Bible, and Jesus Christ only teach things which even non beleivers would deem as good and not harmful.

    The falsity of these claims has been demonstrated, and if you’d done even a half-assed job of looking into what atheists (or, for that matter, many non-Christian or unconventionally-Christian theists) actually write, you’d know this.

    Also, if you are an atheist, why do you bother trying to convince others of that? If you don’t want to beleive in God, then so be it, and leave it at that if you choose.

    Among many other reasons, concern for the welfare of the children of people who believe that burning someone alive is “teaching lovingly and firmly.

  • andrew

    You know I never really was a fan of that poem. I always thought it was overly sappy.

    But regardless, I like Ebons version. Too many people(including too many Christians) forget God is loving AND just.

  • andrew

    You know I never really was a fan of that poem. I always thought it was overly sappy.

    But regardless, I like Ebons version. Too many people(including too many Christians) forget God is loving AND just.

  • Alex Weaver

    But regardless, I like Ebons version. Too many people(including too many Christians) forget God is loving AND just.

    [Emphasis mine]

    You Christians keep using these words. I do not think they mean what you think they do.

  • Alex Weaver

    But regardless, I like Ebons version. Too many people(including too many Christians) forget God is loving AND just.

    [Emphasis mine]

    You Christians keep using these words. I do not think they mean what you think they do.

  • http://marcschooley.com MS Quixote

    As in definitions 12 & 7, respectively?

  • Alex Weaver

    Since definitions 12 and 7 contain “benevolent” and “righteous” they also fail to describe god as depicted.

  • Alex Weaver

    Since definitions 12 and 7 contain “benevolent” and “righteous” they also fail to describe god as depicted.


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