Is America a Christian Nation?

A frequent refrain among the religious right is that the United States of America is a “Christian nation”, or that this country was founded on Christian principles. However, I’ve never seen any religious apologist explain what exactly this is supposed to mean beyond making the mere statement. If this nation was founded on Christian principles, which principles are those? If Christianity played such a major role in our nation’s founding, then what specific contributions did it make?

In an attempt to help the religious right answer this key question, I’ll list some of America’s core defining principles as given in the Constitution, and examine whether any of them could plausibly be said to come from Christianity or the Bible:

Republican democracy. Through a public ballot open to all adult citizens, Americans elect candidates who will represent them at the local, state and federal levels. All officials of the American government are either directly elected by the people or are appointed by others who are elected.

Separation of powers. The American government is divided into legislative, executive and judicial branches. Through various mechanisms, these three branches can check each other’s power – the president can issue pardons and veto legislation, Congress can override vetoes and pass constitutional amendments, and the courts can rule laws and executive actions unconstitutional – which prevents too much power from accumulating in the hands of any one individual or group.

Federalism. The U.S. is set up as a series of states with a limited degree of autonomy, united together and overseen by a central, federal government. Power is shared between the two, with some areas being the province of the states and others set by the federal authority.

The process of amendment. The U.S. Constitution can be changed in any way, either to pass new clauses or to repeal existing ones, if the proposed amendment is approved by a two-thirds majority of both houses of Congress and three-quarters of the states.

Religious freedom. The Constitution explicitly provides that no religious test shall ever be required for any public office in the United States, nor shall the government officially establish any religion. No law which infringes on the free exercise of religion is permitted.

Freedom of speech, assembly, press and petition. The First Amendment to the Constitution provides that no law shall be passed which abridges the citizens’ freedom of speech, nor their right to protest and petition the government, nor the right of the press to report information on the events of the day.

Protection from search and seizure. The police force in America may not enter a person’s home or search their possessions without proving reasonable suspicion and obtaining the consent of an independent magistrate, in the form of a search warrant.

Trial by jury. Americans accused of crimes can only be convicted by a jury made up of people living in the area where the crime has taken place. In addition, people on trial have the right to confront witnesses against them and may not be compelled to testify against themselves.

Protection from cruel or unusual punishment. Cruel, degrading, or torturous punishments are constitutionally forbidden.

Equality of all people under the law. Most fundamental to the American experiment is the idea that all people have equal protection under the law, that no one group has any more or fewer legal rights than any other. This more than anything else is the idea that defines us, and though we have not always lived up to it, throughout our history we have steadily been making strides toward expanding the boundaries of liberty to include all Americans.

Now, let’s see what Biblical equivalents, if any, these principles have:

Republican democracy: Explicitly denied by the Bible. Rather than democracy, the Bible’s preferred model of government is a divine-right kingship, where one individual is hereditarily chosen and wields supreme power. This is what America’s founders were rebelling against when they brought forth this nation.

Separation of powers: Explicitly denied by the Bible. As above, in the Bible’s divine-right monarchy, a single individual wields supreme power over all functions of government. Some apologists seek to find an equivalent in a verse from Isaiah 33 – “For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king” – but what they overlook is that this verse explicitly envisions all three of these powers as being held by the same person.

Federalism: Partial equivalent in the Bible. The Old Testament’s society, where each of the twelve tribes of Israel has partial autonomy over its own region, is similar to the American model of states. However, there is a notable dissimilarity as well: the Bible envisions membership in a tribe as hereditary, whereas states are made up of free collections of individuals who can move around at will. In any case, some sort of hierarchy is unavoidable in any organization too large for a single person to directly oversee.

The process of amendment: Explicitly denied by the Bible. Rather than creating a living, dynamic system of laws that can be improved and mended as society sees fit, the Bible claims that its laws are eternal and immutable, literally set in stone, and can neither be added to nor changed. The Old Testament says that each of its laws “shall be a statute forever” (Leviticus 23:41), and the New Testament says that anyone who suggests a different gospel should be accursed (Galatians 1:8-9).

Religious freedom: Explicitly denied by the Bible. Far from granting people the right to worship as they see fit, the Bible says that anyone who encourages believers to serve other gods, or anyone who speaks “blasphemy”, should be killed (Deuteronomy 13:6-9, Leviticus 24:16). God himself joins in on many occasions by slaughtering people who worship different gods (Exodus 22:20). Although Jesus does say that people should “render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s” (Mark 12:17), there is no indication that any non-Christian should enjoy the same freedom of worship as believers.

Freedom of speech, assembly, press and petition: Explicitly denied by the Bible. As above, the Bible does not grant freedom of speech, but rather threatens death for those who speak in unapproved ways. Ancient Israel had no concept of the press, but there are also many cases in which people were killed for unapproved assemblies or for questioning their leaders (Numbers 16:35).

Protection from search and seizure: No equivalent in the Bible. Lacking a judicial system or separation of powers, ancient Israel had no notion of search warrants or of protection from arbitrary seizure.

Trial by jury: No equivalent in the Bible. Again, the Bible has nothing like our custom of the legal or judicial system. It does say that a man who suspects his wife of committing adultery can bring her before the priests and force her to drink “bitter water” which will cause her belly to swell and her thighs to rot if she is guilty (Numbers 5). If anything, this is most similar to the barbaric concept of trial by ordeal. It also says that anyone who accidentally kills someone may be killed without consequence by a relative of the deceased (whom it calls the “avenger of blood”) (Joshua 20). Again, no mention is made of convening a jury to determine the guilt of the accused. Finally, it says that any person may be convicted of a crime on the testimony of just two witnesses (Deuteronomy 19:15), which is a far cry from the American legal system.

Protection from cruel or unusual punishment: Explicitly denied by the Bible. One of the most common punishments prescribed by the Bible is stoning – bludgeoning a person to death by smashing in his head and face with rocks. This penalty is prescribed for crimes such as disobeying one’s parents (Deuteronomy 21:21), picking up sticks on Sunday (Numbers 15:36), or being gay (Leviticus 20:13). This is “cruel and unusual” punishment by any rational definition of that term.

Equality of all people under the law: Explicitly denied by the Bible. The Bible makes it clear that the Israelites enjoyed special favor as compared to everybody else, and were treated differently by the Mosaic law code. For example, foreigners taken as slaves could be kept indefinitely, while Israelite slaves were freed every seven years during Jubilee (Leviticus 25:39-46). Even among Israelites, there were stark divisions: women are worth considerably less than men (Leviticus 27:1-7), and the handicapped are discriminated against (Leviticus 21:17-23). Even Jesus joins in by making statements comparing non-Jews to dogs (Mark 7:27).

* * *

In sum, the basic principles of American democracy cannot be found in either testament of the Bible. This is hardly surprising: America’s founders drew their ideas from the rational philosophy of the Enlightenment, as well as from the English common law; they said so themselves.

And to this evidence, we must add the fact that many of America’s most influential founders held notably unorthodox religious views. Far from being the monolithic group of pious, church-going, by-the-book fundamentalists that today’s religious right imagines them as, the founders were a diverse, freethinking group, few of them strictly obedient to any creed. It is almost certainly no coincidence that, while divine-right monarchies across the world have ended in degeneration or destruction, the American system of government whose origins were based in reason and not hobbled by rigid dogma has survived and flourished.

About Adam Lee

Adam Lee is an atheist writer and speaker living in New York City. His new novel, Broken Ring, is available in paperback and e-book. Read his full bio, or follow him on Twitter.

  • http://spaninquis.wordpress.com/ John P

    Brilliant!You have a way of boiling these things things down to their essentials.

    Before America, practically all government was modeled on the religious, biblical type. The American Revolution was explicitly a rebellion against that style of government. The idea that we are a Christian nation, founded on Christian values, is so antithetical to the ideals of the American Revolution, that Jefferson, Washington, Madison and Monroe are spinning in their graves, as we speak.

  • http://www.dougpaulsen.com Doug

    Nicely done…I can’t say I’ve ever seen any sort of analysis like this. Great post.

  • Damien

    In Sagan’s “Varieties of Scientific Experience”, he comments that not once has any “Christian nation” followed explicitly Gospel principles.

  • http://anexerciseinfutility.blogspot.com Tommykey

    America is a Christian Majority Nation, but it is also a pluralistic democracy that allows for freedom of belief, or in our cases, freedom to disbelieve!

  • M.

    I agreed with everything except: “It is almost certainly no coincidence that, while divine-right monarchies across the world have ended in degeneration or destruction, the American system of government whose origins were based in reason and not hobbled by rigid dogma has survived and flourished.”

    The American system of government has been in place little more than 230 years, whereas some of the world’s monarchies held power for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before ending in “degeneration or destruction.” Democracy, in the American sense, is far too young for us to say that it is immune to the short-comings of monarchy and theocracy.

  • stillwaters

    I once challenged an apologist about how our government is based on the bible. He gave me the Isaiah 33 verse that you mentioned above – “For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king”. It’s obvious this is talking about a monarchy, not three separate, equi-powerful branches of government.

    But for the apologists, I’m afraid that if they repeat this lie of the USA being a christian nation enough times, they will believe it as truth.

    Critical thinking and decent education are our only hope.

  • Robert Madewell

    I’ve never understood why the religious right want a “christian nation”, when it is because we are a secular nation that they have the freedom to worship as they see fit. If USA was started as a “christian nation” then I do not see how fundamentalism could have even got started, since many practises of fundies are considered blasphemous to mainline protestants (speaking in tounges, adult baptism, etc). If the christians of the 1770′s (mostly mainline protestants in America) had control, they would have nipped these practices off at the bud.

  • OMGF

    One should also note that quite a few religious leaders at the end of the 18th century denounced the Constitution as an atheist document.

  • ITLK

    If the Christian right want to think this is a Christian Nation they would have to explain how slavery and the genocide of the Natives exemplifies Christian values. But, at any rate the government structure as pointed out was not built on Christian ideology.

  • Erika

    The one point in your analysis that I disagree with is that the idea that the Bible supports the divine right of kings. In the Old Testament, God was reluctant to give the Israelites a king, and it never did end up going well for them. As far as I can tell, what the Bible seems to think works best is even worse, a priest led nation.

  • ESVA

    This is a very good post. I agree with most of your analysis and love the clear, simple way in which you’ve laid out your points. Good thinking and excellent exposition. Erika has already stated my one objection. Monarchy was not “God’s” preferred option for the governance of “His” people, it was a form of government that those silly Israelites allegedly coerced “Him” into granting.

  • http://gretachristina.typepad.com/ Greta Christina

    “If the Christian right want to think this is a Christian Nation they would have to explain how slavery and the genocide of the Natives exemplifies Christian values.”

    Actually, both slavery and genocide are Christian values. Old Testament values, anyway. Both institutions are spoken of favorably in the Old Testament. And Jesus himself spoke of slavery, not approvingly exactly, but not disapprovingly either: simply as a normal, accepted fact of life.

    Great post as always, Ebon!

  • Pi Guy

    As usual, a fine post. I learn something valuable every time I visit. Even though I feel that I already knew all of these things, with regard to both the US and the Bible, this was the first time I’d ever seen assembled in this point-counterpoint manner. It will serve as a good model for me the next time I hear somebody make that claim. Thank you.

    As far as I’m concerned, saying that the US is a Christian nation because the majority of people are Christian is akin to saying that we’re a White nation because most people here are white. And I can only imagine what would happen if somebody were to claim that we live in a White nation.

  • Alex Weaver

    This is an excellent analysis, and somewhat timely. I wonder if the “Christian Civilization Club” is still doing their booth at ARC, and whether someone less hopeless with formatting than I would be interested in formatting the above into a pamphlet readily distributable (I think it would be useful to have a printed version without a letterhead that says “atheism”, though obviously the written version would properly credit Adam. Ebonmusings.org might be a better site reference; the idea is to reduce the probability of the reader dismissing it out of hand. x.x)

  • SteveC
  • SteveC

    Rereading what I wrote, it might seem apropos of nothing, but Adam’s post reminded me of the book review I read, which is why I mentioned it.

  • Archi Medez

    Nice work, Ebonmuse. This is a strong, concise rebuttal to a common apologetic myth, and is exactly the sort of thing we need.

  • KShep

    Great post. Should be required reading for all xtians, but I’m not holding my breath.

    I don’t know if anyone else here knows about it, but none other than Frank Zappa wrote of the same subject, in the song “Dumb All Over,” and in his autobiography. He specifically called out Pat Robertson, saying that one of Robertson’s most reprehensible activities is to rewrite American history with a christian bias. Zappa goes on to quote the founders of our country on the subject of religion, and leaves no doubt as to what their intentions were regarding the subject.

    I’ve been a fan of Zappa’s for a long time and this is one of the many reasons why.

  • Alex Weaver

    It is innaccurate to accuse Pat Robertson of “rewriting American history with a christian bias.” What he’s doing is what my generation usually refers to as “making shit up.”

  • http://acriticalmass.wordpress.com Darren

    Excellent post. This is all well encapsulated by the phrase “a nation of Christians is not a Christian nation”, a quote I read recently and noted for future comment. You’ve saved me the job!

  • lpetrich

    The writers of the Bible had mixed minds about kings. Though they criticized kings they considered bad, they nowhere argued that that means that we ought not to have any kings at all. This is apparent from their admiration of kings that they considered good, and who they believed the Messiah would be: a good king who would restore the Davidic dynasty.

    And the Bible has several theocrat leaders, notably Moses and Ezra and Nehemiah and Peter. The latter was a bit Stalinist; when Ananias and Sapphira refused to turn over all their property to him, they mysteriously collapsed and died, or so we are told.

  • Thumpalumpacus

    Excellent. My one niggle: All people have equal protection under the law, but not all people have the “same rights”, insofar as only native citizens may run for President, for example. This however, is a minor point.

  • Ric

    Excellent post. I’ll remember these points to use in debate.

  • ITLK

    “Actually, both slavery and genocide are Christian values. Old Testament values, anyway. Both institutions are spoken of favorably in the Old Testament. And Jesus himself spoke of slavery, not approvingly exactly, but not disapprovingly either: simply as a normal, accepted fact of life.”

    That was the point I was making the things Christianity contributed to the founding of our nation where the worst things about this country.

  • Mark

    Excellent post as always Ebonmuse! Thanks for sharing. I also feel like I learn something every time I visit. This post gives me more ammo against fundies that insist we were founded as a Christian nation. It’s an argument I have had some trouble arguing against. I also struggle with the free will argument, the question of morality without god, the problem of original sin, and Christ’s infinite atonement. Maybe in the future you can provide your insight on these other issues so we can continue to build our arsenal.

  • Polly

    Yes, the preferred OT government was not a monarchy. A priest or prophet was to lead the people. When the religious leader is also the political leader and so controls every aspect of the lives of citizens, that’s not a monarchy, it’s a dictatorship. so, totalitarianism is really the best term for biblical government. Kings only tell you what to do, not what to believe and feel.

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  • Thumpalumpacus

    Theocracies are inherently dictatorial. When breaking the law becomes a sin, humanity is likely to be jettisoned; this is one of the lessons of the Inquisition.

  • Nekouken

    A companion piece to this is in order; one in which you compare the Biblical values against the founding laws of the land, presumably starting with the Ten Commandments and moving outward from that — It’s noteworthy that only two commandments condemn actions likewise prohibited by American law, and violations of some of them are actually protected.

  • http://www.daylightatheism.org/ Ebonmuse

    Nekouken: I’m way ahead of you, my friend. :)

  • Sick of Religious Nuts

    Great post!

    But ever try having an intelligent conversation with a religious nut? They abandon logic and reason at the door..What gets me is that the religious right in America oppose evething Jesus advocated-(He advocated peace, charity and shunned greed).

    Those that worship this man as a god have turned him into something quite the opposite..

  • Sick of Religious Nuts

    I think the reason Christian zealots want everyone to be Christian in the US is the same reason Muslim extremists want everyone to be Muslim- Its all about conformity- Religion demands conformity, and independent thought is looked on with scorn. The parable of Adam and eve partaking in the apple (the fruit of knwledge) was a condemnation of questioning authority- and thus a demand for conformity….

    If Christians really think America is a Christian nation, then why aren’t they all out doing what Jesus would do- helping the poor, feeding the hungry, discouraging hatred, and advocating peace?
    Christian zealots i have met care nothing for the poor, prefer violence to peace, and advoacate hate, not love…

    In no way shape of form do the ‘ideals’ of the Christian right in America bear any resemblance to the teachings of Jesus….

    I’m Jesus ever did return, they’d probrolly have him beaten and tortured, and shipped off to Gitmo..

  • hb531

    Great post. I see the claim that this is a Christian Country is an expression of insecurity by the Christian right. These people believe that this country’s downfall is approaching by way of the immigrants of other cultures and religions. Therefore, they feel the need to make this claim about the U.S. Of course the link is clear; this country was founded by white Anglo Christians (or their descendants). Maybe they figure that if they don’t make the claim first, then the Muslims will say this is a Muslim nation. Heaven forbid!

  • shifty

    “It’s noteworthy that only two commandments condemn actions likewise prohibited by American law, and violations of some of them are actually protected.”
    - check out George Carlin’s bit on the 10 commandments as he reduces them to two.
    It’s on youtube.

  • http://suicidefood.blogspot.com Ben

    Thank you. The companion piece to this one would be “Is the American System of Justice Based on the Ten Commandments?” Of course, the answer is No. Putting aside your point (here) that the Commandments as originally given in the Bible are different from how they’ve ended up, the argument that there is a direct line from them to our legal system is silly.

    Trial by jury, the right to face your accuser, the right to abstain from offering self-incriminating testimony, the right to examine the evidence against you, the requirement of warrants, habeas corpus—these are the things that make our legal system (in theory, at least) so special and so powerful. And none of those things has anything to do with the Commandments! (Any version of them.)

  • Tim Wilson

    “This penalty is prescribed for crimes such as disobeying one’s parents (Deuteronomy 21:21), picking up sticks on Sunday (Numbers 15:36), or being gay (Leviticus 20:13).”
    At the time the Bible was written, there was no concept of what we know today as “gay.” Jesus said absolutely nothing about homosexuality.

    Tim

  • Rosito

    Tim wrote: “At the time the Bible was written, there was no concept of what we know today as “gay.” Jesus said absolutely nothing about homosexuality.”

    Interesting point. While homosexual behaviour is condemned by Old Testament writers (at least in the approved Christian translations of these ancient texts) there is no mention of a person who is primarily or exclusively sexually orientated towards their own sex, either male or female. Of course, there is no mention or understanding of a whole lot of non-main-stream human endowments or disfunctions and a lot of clear-cut discrimination against those with disabilities. Jesus’s attitude to physical illness was much more tolerant and understanding than towards cerebral, mental or cognitive disabilities. These were the only ones diagnosed and treated as being possessed by devils.

    There is another interesting point to make. Let us assume that Jesus of Nazarath actually existed and did, in fact, travel around the countryside with twelve fishermen whom he had persuaded to abandon their families. The statistical probablity that two or more of this 13 person group was “homosexual” is extremely high. That includes the man, Jesus.

    The Bible is completely silent about their sexual activity, or abnormal lack of it. For a homosexual or asexual, self-exile to the “wilderness” with a group of men would be a good way to avoid the strong social pressures of the time to marry and have children.

    Females were not recorded as being encouraged to spent any significant amounts of time with any of the Jesus Band. Even the visits which Jesus is reported to have made to Mary Magdalene seemed to be done as more of a duty than a pleasure.

    None of the stories credit Jesus as having any sexual feelings or temptations whatever. Only Paul/Saul mentions sexual temptation, and they occur within a strong misogynist framework.

    It is really ironical that the man/god who is held up a an example of human “perfection” by American Christian extremists is so antithetical to their view of what is moral. The Biblical Jesus is the illegitimate son of a woman who was unwittingly impregnated by his (divine) father. He lived in a household where, if you believe the Catholic version, he was the only child of parents who never had sex, either normal or abnormal. His abnormal upbringing so scared him that he left home in his thirties and persuaded a group of local fishermen to abandon their families and travel around the countryside with him. Accept for directing that one of his disciples look after his mother after after his death by torture, he never accepted any responsibility of care for anyone, including children. He was certainly not a “family friendly” person.

  • Firous

    I am currently taking a history class on Native Americans and a lot of the government that we have was based off of…. The Iroquois Republic. This was an alliance among many of the east coast tribes. It was established pre-colonel to protect each other from other tribes. It had all the branches and the original amendments could be seen in their society. In fact the very symbol we use (Eagle carrying arrows and an olive branch) uses their symbol (An eagle carrying arrows). We are not a “Christian based” Nation…. We were Indian based. More specifically an Iroquois Republic based nation.

  • Cliff

    I remember that during and before WW II, Hitler’s chief of propoganda mastered the technique of the big lie – to make your claim so broad that someone was bound to believe it. We all need to be periodically reminded of that.

  • buckykat

    Also, there is the treaty of Tripoli, unanimously approved by the senate in 1797, and signed by John Adams. Article eleven states: “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…”

  • Pablo Fuentes

    As a Christian foreigner -coming from an atheist background (family and education)-I agree that is hard to consider United States a Christian nation. I believe the majority of the population of your country DO NOT represents what a disciple of Christ should be and many important aspects of American history (slavery, racism, extreme violence, etc) are not examples of Christian behavior at all, also I do not manage enough information to support the idea that your country’s core principles were established on Christian beliefs, BUT your vision of Christians morals is what concerns me.

    I have to say it is very incomplete -and distorted-, mostly because you only use Old Testament references -with the exception of two New Testament references out of context-, a decision very convenient for atheist supporters -REMEBER I HAVE BEEN THERE BEFORE-.

    O.T. has to be seen “through the eyes” of the N.T., for example you say “Protection from cruel or unusual punishment – Explicitly denied by the Bible”, that is not true, you should say “unsupported in Old Testament times, supported and practiced by Jesus and his disciples(John 8:1-11).

    Many of the practices of a rigidly organized society like early Israelite, during very especific times, seems tyrannical -but not even close to the atrocities of theirs neighbors and inhabitants of other parts of the world by that time- by our modern standards, but Christian morals established on New Testament principles are centuries ahead of many of the most important social reformations world have ever seen, like protecting childhood (Matthew 18:6)and racial tolerance (John 4:7-9).

    Please go beyond traditional American experience at the time to analyze Christianity and try to inquire faith without negative preconceive ideas. A real disciple of Christ do not correspond to the many racist, ignorant, arrogant, selfish, xenophobic, retrograde individuals who have took to themselves the ownership of the Christian faith.

    Sorry for my poor English.

  • johnnydee

    O.T. has to be seen “through the eyes” of the N.T Comment by: Pablo Fuentes

    I would say then that the OT has to stop being quoted by christian ‘preists’. They cannot speak out of both sides of their mouths. Otherwise, you have rules and advice for life which can be contradictory of each other. If The NT superseded the OT, why are they still published together?

  • Pablo Fuentes

    It is not secret, even in the most conservative circles, the preeminence of NT over OT. OT times and circumstances were very different and God’s revelation (obviously you cannot believe in that if you are not a Christian) wasn’t complete. Actually pre-Jesus historical, social, political and religious events were aligning through hundreds of years to prepare a most suitable historical context to receive the messiah. If you read the last part of the Old Testament is mostly a group of prophetic texts (written centuries before Jesus time) that predicted future events regarding Israel and the coming of the messiah. O.T. is the foundation for Christianity and contains many important teachings and historical information. Almost all of the early disciples were Jewish who knew about the promise of messiah. You cannot build a house without foundation; however the foundation is neither a complete building.

  • http://whyihatejesus.blogspot.com/ OMGF

    It is not secret, even in the most conservative circles, the preeminence of NT over OT.

    Which is why Xians try so hard to make sure the 10 commandments are posted everywhere.

    OT times and circumstances were very different and God’s revelation (obviously you cannot believe in that if you are not a Christian) wasn’t complete.

    Why not? Why was this world not ready for god? Couldn’t he create a world that would be ready?

    Actually pre-Jesus historical, social, political and religious events were aligning through hundreds of years to prepare a most suitable historical context to receive the messiah.

    Huh? You mean a world where the messiah would be ridiculed and crucified?

    If you read the last part of the Old Testament is mostly a group of prophetic texts (written centuries before Jesus time) that predicted future events regarding Israel and the coming of the messiah.

    Yeah, so? Prophetic writings were not at all uncommon. If they had actually been specific and fulfilled, then maybe you’d have something.

    O.T. is the foundation for Christianity and contains many important teachings and historical information.

    Such as what? How to mistreat women or slaves?

    Almost all of the early disciples were Jewish who knew about the promise of messiah.

    Again, so what? Many Jews still think a messiah might come. Just because they believed in one doesn’t mean that one came or will come.

    You cannot build a house without foundation; however the foundation is neither a complete building.

    I don’t see why an omni-max god couldn’t.

  • http://none cyrus

    USA is a country was influenced by Christian principles in as much as majority of the settlers were aware of the religious persecution in Europe. So the Constitution was not stated to favor any religion however the freedom of religion clause protects their interest. After-all majority of the settlers were protestant Christians. Particularly as the first century of the USA as a nation was really predominantly protestant. Thus, even if the Constitution does not express a Christian bias as it was not meant to be, but freedom insures their individual and corporate rights. Freedom is their contribution to the world, so they can’t violate that principle as Freedom is a Christian principle. Freedom to agree or disagree. And if the minority and unbelievers have the right to be noisy in a free America, why can’t the Christian majority speak out. However, America is really affected by the unbelievers, so that modern America is now slowly but surely turning it’s back from God. Repent America. From a Filipino who admires how USA rose to prominence due her Christian beginnings…

  • http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    “Christian beginnings”? Do you mean back when they gave Indians smallpox, or later on when they gave the survivors a chance to walk down the Trail of Tears? Or how about the chattel slavery era? Or how about that whole “21 years of supporting Ferdinand Marcos” era?

  • http://whyihatejesus.blogspot.com OMGF

    Let’s not forget that the founders were largely deistic and enamored of the values of the enlightenment (secularism). When some founders wished to push a more Xianized version of the nation, debates happened, and the Xianists lost.

    Freedom is their contribution to the world, so they can’t violate that principle as Freedom is a Christian principle.

    Since when? god demands obedience. If he does not get it, he burns you in eternal hellfire. How is that, in any way, a religion that has freedom as a principle? Once again we see Xians taking modern secular values and trying to re-write history to claim that those values came from their religion.

    And if the minority and unbelievers have the right to be noisy in a free America, why can’t the Christian majority speak out.

    No one is saying they can’t speak out. What they can’t do, however, is trample the rights of the minority.

  • Thumpalumpacus

    However, America is really affected by the unbelievers, so that modern America is now slowly but surely turning it’s back from God.

    Yeah, you’re right. First those slaves were freed. Now those pesky gay folk want to marry and adopt. If we don’t do something soon, everyone will have equal rights. Then how Christian will we be?

    Pfft. Wee need to speed up the process of turning.

  • http://none cyrus

    Damn if you don’t and damn if you do. You have to believe something to have a purpose life. What if I tell you that the “goose that lay the golden egg” – meaning which made America great is slowly being explained away by unbelievers like you. The settlers, left Europe, mainly England in search of religious freedom and establish a land that is free so they can worship they way they can. Freedom was their contribution not for it to be used to kill its founding principles in later days – like using freedom against it’s founding spirit. Indeed there had been cases of shortsightedness and misjudgement, as the Roman Church of Rome had untold cases of inhumanities.
    —The good life you enjoy in American shores and protestant lands are mainly due to the democracy they introduced to the world which is misinterpreted and are deliberately maligned. You are like children who inherited a great legacy of freedom and affluence, as you were save of the pains of fighting for peace and establishing a great civilization. I agree with a certain Jewish writer Hulley who said ‘What we are talking about is the social environment.
    • It is the religious people who create the environment and the secular who benefit from it.
    • Fairness is in the backbone of both Jewish and Protestant cultures.’ ” Of course they respond differently when threatened…

  • http://none cyrus

    Let’s not forget that the founders were largely deistic and enamored of the values of the enlightenment (secularism). When some founders wished to push a more Xianized version of the nation, debates happened, and the Xianists lost.
    That is your claims but that is proven otherwise like this:”Woodrow Wilson, in his election campaign for President, made the same point: “A nation which does not remember what it was yesterday, does not know what it is today, nor what it is trying to do. We are trying to do a futile thing if we do not know where we came from or what we have been about…. America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the tenets of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture.”

    The crucial role of Christianity in this nation’s formation is not without dispute, although as Revolutionary leader Patrick Henry said:
    • “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship.”
    “.

  • http://www.daylightatheism.org Ebonmuse

    The settlers, left Europe, mainly England in search of religious freedom and establish a land that is free so they can worship they way they can. Freedom was their contribution not for it to be used to kill its founding principles in later days…

    Cyrus, I’m afraid you’ve been misinformed. The first settlers of America were not in search of religious freedom, at least not in the sense you use that term here. As I wrote in “The Wall“:

    The Puritans are often remembered as coming to America in search of religious freedom, but this is a half-truth at best: the Puritans disagreed with the English government not because it was a theocracy, but because it was not their theocracy. The only freedom they sought was the freedom to write their own beliefs into law rather than those of the established Anglican church. They wanted tolerance for themselves, but had no intent or desire to extend that tolerance to any other sect.

    When the Puritans began to arrive in Massachusetts Bay in force in the 1620s, they wasted no time putting this vision into practice. The General Court, the colony’s legislature, quickly passed laws limiting voting rights to Puritan church members… Nonattendance at church services, unauthorized preaching, and disagreement with any of a long list of creedal statements were made punishable offenses.

    The same thing happened in the South, only with the Anglican church as the established religion rather than the Puritan church. In both cases, In both cases, the early colonies passed strict laws against religious freedom – members of unauthorized churches, even unauthorized Christian churches, faced harsh punishment for dissenting. Groups like Baptists, Presbyterians, Quakers, Unitarians, Methodists, Roman Catholics and Jews were labeled blasphemers, were forbidden to hold office, were forbidden to hold services even in their own homes, were forced to pay taxes to support the state denomination, and faced brutal punishments like flogging, branding, even execution if they dared to preach in public.

    The U.S. Constitution, which broke from this tradition by declaring that there would be no state church, was fiercely opposed by many believers of the day as a godless, infidel document. People like Timothy Dwight, president of Yale and grandson of the infamous fire-and-brimstone preacher Jonathan Edwards, complained that America had “offended Providence” by ratifying a Constitution “without any acknowledgement of God”. Anti-federalists warned that America would be punished by God for not paying him sufficient homage in its founding document. And some delegates to the Constitutional Convention repeatedly attempted to add amendments specifically recognizing Christianity or requiring religious tests for public office; these efforts all failed.

    The good life you enjoy in American shores and protestant lands are mainly due to the democracy they introduced to the world…

    I couldn’t agree more. But democracy isn’t a Christian idea. The Bible’s model of government is a divine-right kingship, which is the very thing that America’s founders rebelled against.

  • http://www.daylightatheism.org Ebonmuse

    “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship.”

    This quote is a fabrication by the modern anti-secularism propagandist David Barton. Neither Patrick Henry nor any of the other founding fathers ever said it.

  • Sarah Braasch

    Brilliant assessment Ebon. Spot on.

  • http://none cyrus

    “Christian beginnings”? Do you mean back when they gave Indians smallpox, or later on when they gave the survivors a chance to walk down the Trail of Tears? Or how about the chattel slavery era? Or how about that whole “21 years of supporting Ferdinand Marcos” era?
    –Admittedly they can’t be right for the 2 preceding crimes. Damn if you and damn if you don’t. There are some cases which can’t be explained in times of strifes and uncertainties, but they made amends when they have establish the society they wanted by allowing you freedom to dissent.
    —The support of Marcos was a different case as it was a state policy…I was anti-Marcos before but it turns out the recent administration maybe worst.
    — The point is- a wrong deed is wrong and a wrong policy is wrong – but the issue is about America being a Christian nation. No one is perfect and your beliefs certainly is not but only our good intentions. As a Christian nation, America did more good than harm. It contributed democracy and the most useful inventions that even allowed you to blog…

  • http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    cyrus “Admittedly they can’t be right for the 2 preceding crimes.”
    I count three I listed before Marcos.

    “Damn if you and damn if you don’t.”
    Ten times ten times ten times, no! You’re damned if you do. Nobody in their right mind goes to their grave wishing their country’s history had more muredered indians.

    “There are some cases which can’t be explained in times of strifes and uncertainties…”
    Strife? Uncertainty? They had it. We wanted it. We made treaties where we were weak, and once we were strong we took it.
    If you’re talking Japanese internment on the west coast during WWII, then maybe you’ve got a point. They lost time and belongings, but they didn’t lose their lives, at least. Did they get their property back after being released? In Canada, the State sold (at pennies on the dollar) or tossed out all their stuff, which makes it less about the theoretical protection of the nation and more of a racist property theft…

    “The support of Marcos was a different case as it was a state policy…”
    And State policy coming from a Christian Nation is what, exactly?

    “I was anti-Marcos before but it turns out the recent administration maybe worst.”
    I’m not Philipino, but I think your sense of scale is messed up. Marcos was three things: thief, thug and brute. The West supported him (as is an all too common tale), not because he was good (he wasn’t), but because he was loudy anti-commie (and he let us put bases in his country).

    “The point is- a wrong deed is wrong and a wrong policy is wrong – but the issue is about America being a Christian nation.”
    If that’s the issue, then the issues I raises are still issues.

    “No one is perfect and your beliefs certainly is not but only our good intentions.”
    And what good intentions are behind grinding someone under your heel and stealing their land, or owning your dark-skinned brother and his children, and his children’s children? (The latter with biblical mandate, no less)
    When I’m wrong, it’s because I’m an idiot. When someone guided by the Holy Spirit, apparently, is wrong, there are two parties at fault. Worse, one of those parties is omniscient!

    “As a Christian nation, America did more good than harm.”
    Meh. I’d call it a wash. WWII (eventually), yes. Western expansion, ‘Nam, Panama, Grenada, Iraq II, messing in Central/South America & the Middle East…not so much.

    “It contributed democracy…”
    It contributed to democracy? Yes. So did all the other democracies.
    Do you know who contributed the most to democracy? The Greeks, probably (and, yes, in ancient Greece slaves and women couldn’t vote. Don’t forget that up until fairly recently, the same was true for the USA).

    “…and the most useful inventions that even allowed you to blog…”
    Then why isn’t the Vatican, the most Christian of Nations, the preeminent…everything? Why, up until two World Wars bankrupted it, was Britain the leader (and, to a lesser extent, France and Germany)?

  • http://whyihatejesus.blogspot.com/ OMGF

    That is your claims but that is proven otherwise like this:”Woodrow Wilson, in his election campaign for President, made the same point: “A nation which does not remember what it was yesterday, does not know what it is today, nor what it is trying to do. We are trying to do a futile thing if we do not know where we came from or what we have been about…. America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the tenets of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture.”

    How does that prove anything of the sort? Woodrow Wilson was president in the 20th century, not during the founding of the nation. Xians have been re-writing history for a long time now, it’s no surprise that one can find quotes like this, if Wilson actually ever said it. The point is that the secularists did win. As Ebon points out, the Constitution was derided as a godless, atheistic document. This is the same Constitution that establishes the country that you seem to laud as being a Xian nation. You might want to think about that for a bit.

  • Scotlyn

    Cyrus…

    The settlers, left Europe, mainly England in search of religious freedom and establish a land that is free so they can worship they way they can

    …or even, not to worship at all, think of that! If freedom of religious expression does not include the freedom not to worship, it’s not very free really, is it.

    Speaking as someone whose ancestor arrived in Rehoboth, RI, in 1640… and who is now an American, with a long list of protestant, evangelical and fundamentalist forebears, who has found religious freedom, freedom from religion even, by moving to Europe…of all things, eh?

  • rennis

    “When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —”

  • http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    Rennis:
    1. “Nature’s God”
    2. If it appeared in the Constitution, you might have a point, but the Declaration of Independence was propaganda, not Law; more “why we’re leaving”, not “what we are”.

  • rennis

    I realize we respectfully disagree but I’m not sure the signers of the Declaration of Independence saw it as mere propaganda. The acknowledgement of God as creator is referenced in many other aspects of our early history from what the various folds in our flag respresent to our currency. That being said, I would agree that we are not a Christian nation. We are just a country where 85% of the citizens consider themselves to be Christians and many (not all) of the founding fathers were influenced by their belief in God. Christian, Muslim, Jew, or Atheist can agree that there are many aspects of our history that are tragedies. Those are because men and women do evil things…..not because the Bible teaches one to do evil things. Those who use the Bible to justify their evil and wrong are doing much like the anti Christian commentators here are doing, taking it out of context and using it to support a view they already hold.

  • other scott

    “Those are because men and women do evil things…..not because the Bible teaches one to do evil things. Those who use the Bible to justify their evil and wrong are doing much like the anti Christian commentators here are doing, taking it out of context and using it to support a view they already hold.”

    This is absolute drivel and I’m sick of hearing about how the bible teaches only good. If it teaches only good, surely ANY interpretation that ANYBODY takes away from the bible is also good. Not only that but how can YOU even know that the parts of the bible that you decide to listen to are the one that god intends you to listen to. Either ALL interpretations of the bible are at least hypothetically valid or NONE of them are. Or else you are saying that you specifically have some special insight into what the bible REALLY means. Which basically means either you are a nutcase or a bigot.

    There are so many logical, scientifical, geographical and historical mistakes in the bible that it boggles the mind that people can still think that this book is the perfect moral compass. So many wrongs done in its name, so many unforgivable acts have been justified by this evil book. Slavery, torture, rape all condoned by the bible. All these practices were believed in and perpetrated by members of the christian community since it first began. Why is it that NOW all of a sudden the bible teaches people these things are wrong. 500 years ago the bible said owning slaves was fine, now the bible says owning slaves is wrong. Make up your mind please christians.

  • other scott

    Also, if you want to make an argument that times change and that your interpreation of the bible must change with those times, you are basically saying that before slavery was abolished it was morally ok. That if you own slaves now, it is wrong and you will go to hell but if you owned slaves before, it is fine and you get to spend forever joking around with Jesus. That before it become fine to be gay(Which is what you should believe, even if you don’t), it was immoral to be gay and that any gays born before it became moral will be burning in hell. The arguments for viewing the bible as a moralizing guideline are absolutely ridiculous.

  • http://none cyrus

    “It contributed democracy…” [Cyrus]
    Reaction: It contributed to democracy? Yes. So did all the other democracies.
    Do you know who contributed the most to democracy? The Greeks, probably (and, yes, in ancient Greece slaves and women couldn’t vote. Don’t forget that up until fairly recently, the same was true for the USA).
    * Cyrus: The most workable democracy on a wider scale was American democracy. So that slaves cannot vote, but the Americans elected a son of a former black slave. And if people like you are very much a minority but you want to reverse the trend, i hope the patriotic Americans will silence you.
    “…and the most useful inventions that even allowed you to blog…”
    Reaction: Then why isn’t the Vatican, the most Christian of Nations, the preeminent…everything? Why, up until two World Wars bankrupted it, was Britain the leader (and, to a lesser extent, France and Germany)?
    * Cyrus: Vatican is the most pagan nation in recent history as it has been from the beginning – not Christianity but rightly said, better yet: Popism, Mariology and with Christ as a figure head. And if you know Church History, Britain, Germany was a protestant nation when the Industrial revolution set in as rain dew from God and also however, the protestantism in the Anglican Church retained the domineering ways of the Vatican, so the puritans and the separatist left for the New World to build a model civilization. American Christianity is still a better version of the Protestantism of Britain. As a boy in the Philippines and reared by a Protestant parents [Presbyterian tradition] I already got this as an impression until i did my own research to be find it to be really true.

  • http://none cyrus

    [Freedom is their contribution to the world, so they can't violate that principle as Freedom is a Christian principle. Cyrus]
    “Since when? god demands obedience. If he does not get it, he burns you in eternal hellfire. How is that, in any way, a religion that has freedom as a principle? Once again we see Xians taking modern secular values and trying to re-write history to claim that those values came from their religion.” OMGF
    *** Cyrus: The Bible says the truth shall set you free. Also freedom has its limitation. Freedom is not to do what is not ruining the order that made America great. God has blessed the nation but you people are doing all you can to explain it away, so you can do devilish acts.
    [And if the minority and unbelievers have the right to be noisy in a free America, why can't the Christian majority speak out. Cyrus]
    No one is saying they can’t speak out. What they can’t do, however, is trample the rights of the minority. Comment #47 by: OMGF | August 27, 2009, 7:14 am
    *** Cyrus: What minority, God-bashers, same-sex proponents…

  • http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    cyrus “So that slaves cannot vote, but the Americans elected a son of a former black slave.”
    So, is America properly Christian or not? Make up your mind. When it was the right level of Christian, brown people and women were property. Now that it’s more secular (which, from your posts, I gather is a bad thing), African-Americans are free and can vote, women have rights and can vote, and Obama is in the White House?
    Are you trying to have your cake and eat it, too?

    “And if people like you are very much a minority but you want to reverse the trend, i hope the patriotic Americans will silence you.”
    So, and correct me if I’m misstating what you’re saying, but the only way to save Liberty is to destroy it?

    “Vatican is the most pagan nation in recent history as it has been from the beginning – not Christianity but rightly said, better yet: Popism, Mariology and with Christ as a figure head.”
    Oh, you Protestants and your popery rants. I think you’re both wrong. So there!

    “And if you know Church History, Britain, Germany was a protestant nation when the Industrial revolution set in as rain dew from God and also however, the protestantism in the Anglican Church retained the domineering ways of the Vatican, so the puritans and the separatist left for the New World to build a model civilization.”
    The Puritans came to America, not for freedom, but because they were no longer the oppressors (see Cromwell, for instance).

    “As a boy in the Philippines and reared by a Protestant parents [Presbyterian tradition] I already got this as an impression until i did my own research to be find it to be really true.”
    So the thing that you already were turned out to be the right thing? Wow. I’m shocked. That almost never happens. Most of the time I hear people saying “That other guy’s religion/sect? That’s the right one. Mine is right out to lunch! What was I thinking?!” I’ve been agnostic, deist and atheist, and I honestly have no idea if I’m right. I’m pretty sure that, if there are gods, none of the discovered ones are them. That’s about as far as I can go. Find me one that gets the creation myth right, and we’ll talk.

    “God has blessed the nation but you people are doing all you can to explain it away, so you can do devilish acts.”
    Devilish acts? Really? What, like going to work and raising a family? Outrageous!
    Liberty includes acts that you don’t approve of (as long as they don’t hurt you). I’m free, as dumb as it might be, to punch myself in the nose. I’m not free, however, to do the same to yours.
    I’ll fight for your right to take a crap in your own living room. I will fight against your “liberty” to do the same in mine.

    “What minority, God-bashers, same-sex proponents…”
    I think your definition of “liberty” is different than, say, the dictionary’s. “God-bashers” and “same-sex proponents” have the same liberty you do. Their liberty ends at your nose, yours ends at theirs.
    “God-bashers” have the same right to Free Speech, Free Assembly, Freedom of Conscience and the like as you do. Freedom of Religion must also include the freedom to choose “none of the above”, or it’s no freedom at all.
    You have the freedom to criticize my atheism (or anything else about me, for that matter). I have the freedom to criticize your theism (or anything else about you). Neither of us has the freedom to ban the other’s beliefs, or the expression thereof.
    The 14th Amendment protects same-sex couples as much as it does alternate-sex couples (or it should, dagnabit!).
    To illustrate, back up a couple of hundred years and substitute the unpopular minorities of your comment with, say, Baptists and brown people. Or women and the Irish. Or any other number of “…huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”
    You’re free to pray on your own time in public schools. I’m free to not. If you want to have an opinion based on your interpretation of the bible, that’s okay. If you want to make that opinion the Law, then you’d better bring facts to back it up.
    You do not have the right to not be offended.
    Shorter Modusoperandi: To deny others their liberty is to deny liberty itself.

  • http://none cyrus

    “Actually, both slavery and genocide are Christian values. Old Testament values, anyway. Both institutions are spoken of favorably in the Old Testament. And Jesus himself spoke of slavery, not approvingly exactly, but not disapprovingly either: simply as a normal, accepted fact of life.”

    That was the point I was making the things Christianity contributed to the founding of our nation where the worst things about this country.

    Comment #24 by: ITLK | October 15, 2007, 1:53 pm

    Cyrus: But who worked against slavery, the church – particularly the Methodist and other protestant denominations. The change of lifestyle you insinuated in the OT to the NT is proof of peoples changing lifestyle which atheist and unbelievers are practicing. The bible speaks of people following their own ways, likes and dislikes but the right way is to follow the new way – to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the cornerstone of American founding years. And despite admitted bigotry of some Christians who hate being dominated by others as they learned from their past history in Europe, but slowly they matured enough to accept men of all colors, infact Martin Luther king was a black man and Obama is a black man

  • http://none cyrus

    $To deny others their liberty is to deny liberty itself.Modusoperandi
    * Cyrus: You will not really understand the concept of real freedom, because real freedom has its limitation. Not all that is free is right and not all that is free is morally right. However your argument is to do whatever you like as it does not directly becomes an affront to others, but even by doing so it will in the end do you harm. The bible speaks of people being lovers of themselves and doing whatever they may like. Because they don’t care about morals. It is actually hard to contend with your views because your freedom is premise in no rules at all. Except freedom which is not the real concept of freedom for the early founders. That is why pornography and all kinds of immorality even same-sex marriage is proliferating. Even churches had been poisoned by such corroding concepts of irresponsible freedom. It leads to the ruin of a civilization.

  • http://none cyrus

    Lots of things is hard to understand in this world, but lets limit it to one,YOU FIND IT HARD TO ACCEPT THAT AMERICA WAS FOUNDED ON THE BIBLE -

  • other scott

    “That is why pornography and all kinds of immorality even same-sex marriage is proliferating.”

    Pornography and same-sex marriage are not immoral. Same-sex marriage is consensual adults who love each other pledging to stay faithful to that love. Pornography is consensual adults engaging in healthy(generally) acts of sex for the enjoyment of others. These aren’t immoral things. Immoral acts are what catholic priests do to young children, they are what early christians who founded the US did the the native americans. An immoral act would be to condemn somebody to an ETERNITY of punishment for not doing exactly what you order them to do.

    “Even churches had been poisoned by such corroding concepts of irresponsible freedom. It leads to the ruin of a civilization.”

    Evidence please? Today people live longer, see more, know more, are healthier and more safe than they have ever been. Humanity is not spiralling downwards into a proverbial sewer. We are climbing ever higher. Our achievments are greater and greater each day and we as a species are doing what people couldn’t have dreamt of only 100 years ago.

  • http://none cyrus

    Modusoperandi YOU ARE in a state of denial about creation? If you are really thinking, look at the land, the sea, the sky and the birds and all the small living things, and you will sense an order. God is the source and the master-planner.
    for a reality check, go out to the mountains alone and you will realize that everything has been created for a purpose.

  • other scott

    “Modusoperandi YOU ARE in a state of denial about creation? If you are really thinking, look at the land, the sea, the sky and the birds and all the small living things, and you will sense an order. God is the source and the master-planner.for a reality check, go out to the mountains alone and you will realize that everything has been created for a purpose.”

    The reason such an ‘order’ exists is because the plants and animals on this planet evolved together. Each creature was a part of the selective pressure which helped form each other creature. There is no true ‘order’.

    Cyrus, you are Filipino yes? So basically what you believe is that prior to 1521 when the first Europeans came to your country and introduced christianity, nobody there knew right from wrong? nobody in your country knew that it was the right thing to do to help people and that killing and stealing is wrong? Not to mention that since all filipinos were not christian until at least 1521 they would all be burning in hell because ‘god’ didn’t choose to deliver his message and Jesus to your lands but instead placed him on the other side of the planet.

  • http://none cyrus

    I’ll fight for your right to take a crap in your own living room. I will fight against your “liberty” to do the same in mine.
    * Cyrus: Okay you are right. Fight for what you believe and the lovers of the established truth which you challenge will do the same. And that explains the acts of Oliver Cromwell, the atrocious acts against the Indians the First and the Second World War. Admittedly, the civilization was founded and destroyed by wars of faith. Something to live by. But we have a remedy – believe in God because you came from nothing and by accident. You may not believe in Christ as God’s revelation and incarnation, but it is foolish for you not to believe in God.

  • http://none cyrus

    Even churches had been poisoned by such corroding concepts of irresponsible freedom. It leads to the ruin of a civilization.”Cyrus

    Evidence please? Today people live longer, see more, know more, are healthier and more safe than they have ever been. Humanity is not spiralling downwards into a proverbial sewer. We are climbing ever higher. Our achievments are greater and greater each day and we as a species are doing what people couldn’t have dreamt of only 100 years ago.

    Comment #69 by: other scott | August 31, 2009, 5:44 am

    * Cyrus:
    Life span of men in the past like Noah, Methuselah and the like were more than 900 years. But as people sinned against God and started doing what they want – life span was reduced to 80 as the book of Psalms would attest. And the quantum leap in science was ushered in a civilization which received the blessing of God from the children of Joseph: Manasseh and Ephraim from whom Britain and USA descended [You won't believe anyway]. Evidence, the industrial revolution miraculously started in Britain and continued by Germany and the USA, a fate which never happened in the past but only since the Reformation and thus the Industrial revolution unfolded. From manual technology to machine technology unrivaled by any generation of a thousand years, cause it is only 200 years or more to date. However the quantum leap happened in more or less 5 decades? Due to the American success in science and technology which i believe was due to God’s inspiration to the inventors. And the inventors were mostly Jews and its descendants in a predominantly protestant countries, because democracy is the breeding ground for creativeness and innovations. And even if the inventors are not Christians but i believe majority are, what matters is that the inventors and nobel peace prize winners succeeds in protestant lands. That explains why my country is unheard of. But America is phenomenal due to God’s blessing. Our oldest university in the Philippines was founded by the Spaniards in the 1600′s while the settlers of the USA started in 1620. The USA was born in 1778? Science and technology did the wonder you mentioned in prolonging life a little longer, courtesy of the American ingenuity but anyone who exceeds 100 enters the Guinness books of records.

  • Sarah Braasch

    Cyrus, I have a question for you. Currently, I believe, the Philippines is having a very serious Islamic insurgency problem, no?

    The interesting thing about that is that a Muslim would make all of your arguments on behalf of Islam. He would use these arguments as justification for imposing Sharia upon you. I assume you would resist this effort as a violation of your civil liberties and human rights.

    But, according to your rationale, you should have no right to do so.

    As an example — a recent online comment made by an Islamist celebrating Mali’s President cowing to waves of Muslim protests to a women right’s law (a law that had been written by democratically elected lawmakers):

    Islam doesn’t oppress women so they don’t need freedom.

    I think you should start preparing yourself to take up Arabic, study your Quran, and accept Allah and Mohammed in lieu of Jehovah/Yahweh and Jesus.

    BTW, Islam doesn’t care what came first, because it declares itself as the final and complete revelation, usurping all others. And, conveniently, it also requires that the state/government bow its head as well.

  • http://none cyrus

    I’ll fight for your right to take a crap in your own living room. I will fight against your “liberty” to do the same in mine.
    * Answer: Okay you are right. Fight for what you believe and the lovers of the established truth which you challenge will do the same. And that explains the acts of Oliver Cromwell, the atrocious acts against the Indians the First and the Second World War. Admittedly, civilization was founded and destroyed by wars of faith. Something to live by. But we have a remedy – believe in God because you DID NOT came from nothing and NOT by accident. You may not believe in Christ as God’s revelation and incarnation, but it is foolish for you not to believe in God.

    Comment #72 by: cyrus | August 31, 2009, 6:16

  • Sarah Braasch

    Cyrus, you seem to be advocating for religious war. Well, there’s nothing terribly new or moral or democratic about that. Sounds a lot like religion yet again being used as a justification to conquer.

    It is hard to believe that I have to point out that this approach is hardly democratic — the might makes right stance on religious rectitude — whichever religion can kill the most people wins. Like I said, get ready, because no religion makes this argument better than Islam. And, Islam is knocking on your door.

    Thank God, as Americans, that we do not live in a Christian nation. And, for the record, I do understand that the preceding administration was waging religious wars on behalf of Christianity. This is why, finally, the American people ousted him and his party from power by employing our democratic process. And, this is also why we must hold Obama accountable on this point as well.

    Seems like those godless founding fathers might have been on to something after all.

  • http://none cyrus

    “I believe, the Philippines is having a very serious Islamic insurgency problem, no?

    The interesting thing about that is that a Muslim would make all of your arguments on behalf of Islam. He would use these arguments as justification for imposing Sharia upon you. I assume you would resist this effort as a violation of your civil liberties and human rights.

    But, according to your rationale, you should have no right to do so. ” Sarah Braasch
    * Answer:
    I don’t know how you figured me wrongly. We have the right to stand for our beliefs, however it is the bashers in this blog who tries to explain away the stand of the Protestant rights in America. In the Philippines, the Muslim is very much a minority, and it is just an overblown conflict. It is limited in Mindanao, but even in Mindanao Islam is still a minority. The Philippines is pre-dominantly Roman Catholic country. I am a protestant and i will stand to my belief not because i want too but because it is the right thing to do as the bible convicts me.
    * The point is that i strongly believe from historical facts which you will anyway dismiss as fabrication – that America is a Christian Country; more so a predominantly protestant country, which admittedly is dwindling due to swarms of non-protestant immigrants who has no historical affinity with the protestant past. I just love its beginnings, but much of the anomalies of the recent history of the USA is the undoings of the secularization of the American mind-set. I want the true-blooded Americans to re-capture it’s lost heritage – being proud of its beginnings despite some dark past… Its not the teaching of the bible to kill but to defend is another story and to protect a nations right to sovereignty…

  • http://none cyrus

    Sarah, I am not advocating a religious war, cause I am not in position to do that. Anyway I am just stating my opinion. While you are consistently saying as an American who lives in America that your nation is not Christian, but it does not require one to live in America to believe that it is a Christian nation. My Parents live in Chicago more than 10 years, and Protestantism is our debt to the American missionaries who came with the American soldiers who ousted Spain from the Philippines in 1898. Perhaps you happened to be a fortunate immigrant who went to America, desiring only its affluence like a spoiled child unmindful of the toils of his/her forebears to establish a prosperous economy, based on God’s blessing. But they just end-up becoming lovers of self and pleasure forgetting the “Protestant Ethics” of “Thrift, industry, hard-work, avoidance of worldly pleasure and Godly living.” A true formula for nation building which my country needs. I do not admire America for being America today but America during the Great Awakenings. When it happens America just soars again, a great formula for nation building. Christianity and democracy – a perfect blend.

  • Sarah Braasch

    Like I said, you must have been very happy during the Bush years, when we had a Protestant Christian President/King claiming a divine right to rule and waging Christian wars of conquest inspired by Biblical prophecy.

    Unfortunately, for your argument, I’m pretty sure the secularist founding fathers were rolling over in their graves.

    The problem with the whole kill / defend dichotomy is that it’s such a fine line, and it’s so hard to tell, for the religious at least, upon which side they reside. The religious are always killing, I’m sorry, I mean defending one another on behalf of their respective religious faiths.

  • http://none cyrus

    At least you are citing facts to live by. That is a fact in the real world. as someone said and his article i will post here said: “Only when enough Americans resolve to restore our national character can we hope to see a society wherein people of all classes, colors and religious beliefs can live together in peace and harmony. It is going to take a generation, but we better begin right now. ”
    HOW???
    This is his article:
    America’s Heritage: Are we a Christian Nation?

    Mississippi Governor Kirk Fordice’s comment that America is a “Christian nation” touched off a storm of controversy in November(1992). Fordice’s comment came during a meeting of Republican leaders after President Bush’s loss to Bill Clinton. The remark was meant to remind people that Christian principles were important in the formation of our nation and continue to be important to the majority of Americans.
    The fact that this statement should cause controversy foretells a coming resurgence of debate over the role of Christianity in determining public policy in America. It is also foretells a re-examination of our national roots – a focus that is much needed at a crucial juncture in our history.
    America has lost the roots of its heritage. To recover the quality of life we knew as our kind of Western Civilization, we must rediscover the source and determine to re-establish these teachings as guidelines of conduct in every facet of our lives and teach them to our children.
    What are those mysterious principles discovered by the Founding Fathers that made this a great country, envied by so many that millions endured hardship to enter and gain the freedoms, safety and opportunities found here and almost nowhere else on earth?
    The answers two generations ago were taught with pride to every child in home, school and church. But somehow we have lost our way. It is imperative that we retrace our steps, learn how we became lost and recapture our inheritance through knowledge and dedication.
    The United States of America is not a Christian country or state. The writers of the Constitution said, very wisely, that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” In other words, there will be no state church (such as the Church of England), but the people may worship according to their wishes, anytime and anywhere. A “country” is a geographical area inhabited by a certain people under a particular political government.
    However, the United States of America is a Christian nation. A nation is an aggregation of people bound together “by common ideals and a common purpose. A rich inheritance of memories and the desire to preserve those memories … a nation is a spiritual entity brought into existence by complex historical conditions, by similar traditions and a similar imagination.”
    A nation is not produced by a common language, race, religion or geographical outline, but these things may contribute to the unity of a people – a nation. Several different “nations” make up the Yugoslavia of today. The Jewish people were a “nation” during the 40 years they wandered in the wilderness but they had no land of their own.
    Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution are based on Judeo-Christian teachings. The textbook of these teachings in the Holy Bible. It is the “Owners Manual” or “The Book of Instructions” for our nation. The Founding Fathers and many others in position of authority ever since have recertified that fact. “America is a Christian nation.” This does not mean that all the people were or are Christian. It merely means that there was a Christian consensus and all our founding documents, laws, moral codes and institutions are based on Christian principles from the Bible.
    In broad sense Buddhism and Confucianism made China what it is. Shintoism made Japan what it is. Hinduism made India what it is. Islam made the middle east and North Africa what it is. Communism made 30 nations what they became.
    Reformation Christianity made America what it is – and this is the country we choose – and so would millions of others if they could.
    In an Arabian country a few years ago, a princess, daughter of a Sheik, had an affair with her boyfriend. She was taken to the village square and beheaded. This was legal, moral, and proper according to their laws based upon the Koran. This is not to say that there is nothing good in other religions. There are good teachings in most religions, and certainly many evil things have been done in the name of Christianity. But don’t blame Jesus and His teachings for man’s aberrations.
    To know the Christian basis of our country is to learn what every schoolboy and girl learned two generations ago about the writings and early documents executed by those who built the greatest nation in all history.
    1620 – The Mayflower Compact written by the Pilgrims before they got off the Mayflower said: “In the presence of God, Amen. We … do by these presents solemnly and mutually in ye presence of God, and one another, covenant and combine ourselves into a civil body politic.”
    1638 – The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut (often called the first American Constitution) said, We “enter into a combination and confederation together to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which we now profess.” It also stated for the first time that men’s rights come from God, as later stated in the Declaration of Independence.
    The Great Law of Pennsylvania Colony said, “Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government and therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God…”
    1772 – Samuel Adams: “The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty … The rights of the colonists as Christians may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Law Giver which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.”
    1777 – The First Continental Congress appropriated funds to import for the people 20,000 Holy Bibles as “the great political textbook of the patriots.”
    1776 – The Declaration of Independence says: “We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness – That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men … ”
    There you have some profound statements:

    * There is such a thing as Truth, and Truth can be known by man.

    * Men are “created” and their rights come from God, their Creator.

    * Governments exist to protect these God-given rights.

    This is the very essence of our Americanism!
    1787 – The Constitution was written to “secure the Blessings of Liberty.”
    1787 – George Washington said regarding the Constitution: “Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the event is in the hand of God.”
    Thomas Jefferson, on his memorial: “God who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that the liberties are the gift of God?”
    2 Corinthians 3:17: “Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.”

    1787 – At an impasse of several weeks at the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin rose and sai:, “I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can arise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this.” He then moved they resort to prayer.
    1787- Washington’s Inaugural Address: “The propitious smiles of heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained.” All inaugural addresses and state constitutions refer to Almighty God, the author and sustainer of our liberty.
    1789 – Washington’s Thanksgiving Proclamation: “Whereas, it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits and humbly to implore His protection and favor…”
    1797 – Washington’s Farewell Address: “And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.”
    Patrick Henry: “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ.”
    al buildings. Our Pledge of allegiance is to the flag of “One Nation under God.”
    Surely, with even these few stated facts, no intellectually honest person can deny that our nation exists on the bedrock of biblical Christianity and has so prospered. But strangely, and in spite of our strong spiritual heritage, as so often happens when man becomes prosperous and feels self-sufficient, he ignores his early teachings and begins to create for his own pleasure, an immoral society. He turns his back on God. And thus it is that we find ourselves living in the presently decadent, graphic, licentious, violent and often godless society in fear for our own safety. If you doubt this, just read through your daily newspaper. There are always evil forces willing to contribute to the expedition of the downturn in spiritual and moral values. America was no exception.
    Early in this century, some of the “intellectuals” in our society became enamored with philosophical bantering of some European philosophers of the last century. They read the doctrines of Freud, the Materialism of Feurbach, nihilism of Nietsche, dialectic of Hegel, the communism of Marx, and of behaviorist-socialism, existentialism, rationalism, fabianism and humanism. From this gathering of intellectuals was formed the Intercollegiate Socialist Society and in promoting socialism, they became advocates of the ideology of Karl Marx. Chapters of this organization, now the League for Industrial Democracy, were formed in 125 colleges by the 1930s.
    They were joined by John Dewey, who became president of the organization in 1941. John Dewey, the “godfather of progressive education,” was also a member of the American Humanist Association and signed its Manifesto in 1933. Humanism teaches atheism, autonomous man, amorality, evolution and one-world socialism. Through Dewey’s influence at Columbia University, the teachings of humanism permeated our educational system and excluded from our textbooks the moral and biblical teachings which were so much a part of our American culture. Now after two generations of Americans have been subjected to this “godless” philosophy through our schools, what are the results?
    It has created a spiritually apathetic society that hardly murmured when in 1962, citing no precedents, a liberal Supreme Court abolished prayer from the public schools and the next year abolished Bible reading from the schools. The American public was conditioned to accept this and so from that time there was a startlingly great rise in teenage pregnancies (up 556%), venereal disease (up 226%). Family divorce which had declined for 15 years, then tripled each year since. S.A.T. scores, previously stable, declined remarkably. The high principles that made America great were lost.
    A 1982 survey of top discipline problems in the public schools listed: Rape, robbery, assault, burglary, arson, bombings, murder, suicide, absenteeism, vandalism, extortion, drug abuse/pushing, alcohol abuse, gang warfare, pregnancies, abortions and venereal disease. Contrast this with discipline problems in 1940: Talking in class, chewing gum, making noise, running in halls, getting out of turn in line, not putting papers in waste baskets. What happened to our children?
    People try to blame television programs, family breakdown, drugs, alcohol and many other things as the cause of this decadence. But this thinking is too superficial, it doesn’t go deep enough.
    We must recognize that those who create, participate in and accept the raw-sex and violence of T.V., movies, magazines and books, the casual attitude towards family breakdown, drug abuse, uncommitted sex, sodomy, drive-by shootings, wholesale murders, child molestation, racism, gay-bashing, greed and scandal in politics, business and practically all the ills of society are products of the amoral, permissive educational system and the two generations of people produced by this system and now they determine the moral tone of society.
    There is no other cause for society’s breakdown. Think it through! It will be interesting to see all the artifices and contortions some will go through to try to deny the truths of this study. Perhaps it takes someone more than two generations old (such as I) to note the drastic change from the peaceful, neighborly, spiritually conscious society in which I grew and was taught.
    Only when enough Americans resolve to restore our national character can we hope to see a society wherein people of all classes, colors and religious beliefs can live together in peace and harmony. It is going to take a generation, but we better begin right now.

  • http://whyihatejesus.blogspot.com OMGF

    Cyrus: The Bible says the truth shall set you free. Also freedom has its limitation. Freedom is not to do what is not ruining the order that made America great. God has blessed the nation but you people are doing all you can to explain it away, so you can do devilish acts.

    The Bible says many contradictory things. But, when you look at how the power structure of Biblical religion is set up, god demands obedience, not freedom. god punishes those who use their freedom. And, no, we aren’t trying to explain away god so that we can be evil. What gave you such an inane idea?

    But who worked against slavery, the church – particularly the Methodist and other protestant denominations.

    Wrong again. In fact, many church leaders were very opposed to allowing slaves to become free. The SBC (protestant sect) formed because of their opposition to emancipation.

    Lots of things is hard to understand in this world, but lets limit it to one,YOU FIND IT HARD TO ACCEPT THAT AMERICA WAS FOUNDED ON THE BIBLE

    Of course we find it hard to accept, because it is patently untrue. Where in the Constitution does it reference the Bible? Why was the Constitution derided as an atheist document if it was based on the Bible? You have no answers for these problems.

    for a reality check, go out to the mountains alone and you will realize that everything has been created for a purpose.

    This is a rather fallacious argument. No observation leads one to believe that everything was created for a purpose unless one first begs the question and imparts a purpose on the items being observed.

    You may not believe in Christ as God’s revelation and incarnation, but it is foolish for you not to believe in God.

    Once you present some evidence for god, then you can start making pronouncements about how foolish it is to not believe. Until then, reason and rationality are on our side.

    We have the right to stand for our beliefs, however it is the bashers in this blog who tries to explain away the stand of the Protestant rights in America.

    IOW, you’re claiming that you have the right to stand for your beliefs (because you think your beliefs are correct) but those who you disagree with do not (because you think their beliefs are incorrect). Do you really not understand why your invocations of liberty are so absurd?

  • http://whyihatejesus.blogspot.com OMGF

    There’s lots to correct in cyrus’s latest comment…
    First off, he re-uses the Patrick Henry quote which has already been pointed out to be a fabrication. Tsk tsk tsk.

    The Founding Fathers and many others in position of authority ever since have recertified that fact. “America is a Christian nation.” This does not mean that all the people were or are Christian. It merely means that there was a Christian consensus and all our founding documents, laws, moral codes and institutions are based on Christian principles from the Bible.

    Which is why the founding document that established this nation was derided as atheistic, right? Once again, cyrus can’t answer this problem. He wants to claim that it was all based on the Bible, but the people at the time surely didn’t see it that way, which indicates that this is all revisionist history.

    1620 – The Mayflower Compact…[snip]

    And Ebon already pointed out the reality of that, in that they sought to make sure that their brands of Xianity were enshrined in law and that all other religions were verboten.

    The Declaration of Independence is not a binding document on our country.

    Also, you should look up the pledge of allegiance, considering it was not written until 1892 and the words, “under god” were not added until 1954.

    The rest of the quotes are suspect as well, as I’ve seen at least some of them used before and debunked before, but I’ll have to deal with them later…unless someone else beats me to it.

  • Sarah Braasch

    I would never say that we inherited nothing from our Judeo-Christian forebears. Just as we inherited England’s common law, we also inherited all of the vile, noxious vestigial elements of Judaism and Christianity. It is a testament to our Constitution that we have been able to shed so much of this nonsense.

    Religion and democracy are diametrically opposed to one another — completely incompatible, just as religion and science are.

    It makes about as much sense to call America a Christian nation ( a child of the French Enlightenment) as it does to call France a Christian nation — a nation, which emanates from the same Judeo-Christian forebears as does the US, by the way. Try telling a French citizen that he or she resides in a Christian nation and see what kind of reaction you get.

    On that note, try telling a Turkish citizen that he or she resides in a Muslim nation. It is the exact same issue. The Muslim hardliners want to insist upon the Muslim nation status, thereby destroying the secular constitution. And there are many, be they Muslim or be they secular (although almost all Turkish citizens are Muslim), who understand the value of a secular constitution and are loathe to see this happen.

    Where goes religion, so goes tyranny.

    As a final point, I would just like to point out, to personalize this a bit, that I have an early settler ancestor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. He was a freethinker and he fought for separation of church and state against the Puritan theocrats. He was persecuted for his effort, as were his like minded activist friends.

    Our early nation might have had less of a Judeo Christian character (the bad parts) if the Judeo Christians hadn’t been hanging and burning and exiling all of the non Judeo Christians. Hardly something to brag about or to emulate.

  • Sarah Braasch

    As a product of a public education in the US, I too am furious over the obfuscations of Judeo-Christian principles and precepts and ideals in my elementary, junior high, and high school text books.

    I remember my text books glossing over the Judeo-Christian principles of genocide, including gender genocide, ethnic cleansing, slavery, including sexual slavery, torture, and, above all, tyranny. I definitely got a watered down version of the founding of America, including the Thanksgiving myth and the “purchase” of the New World from the Indians.

  • Sarah Braasch

    And, I would really love someone to try and tell a French citizen that his or her nation’s legal and political systems are based upon the Bible.

  • http://whyihatejesus.blogspot.com OMGF

    Interestingly, it seems that Jefferson’s first draft of the Declaration never included the word “Creator.”
    Now, back to cyrus’s comment:

    1787 – At an impasse of several weeks at the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin rose and sai:, “I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can arise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this.” He then moved they resort to prayer.

    What’s not mentioned here is that the measure was defeated:

    Much has been made of Benjamin Franklin’s suggestion that the Convention open its morning sessions with prayer. His motion was turned down, however, and not again taken up. Franklin himself noted that “with the exception of 3 or 4, most thought prayers unnecessary.” (Ferrand, Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, rev. ed., Vol. 1, p.452.)

  • Thumpalumpacus

    All quotes from Cyrus:

    Woodrow Wilson, in his election campaign for President, made the same point: “A nation which does not remember what it was yesterday, does not know what it is today, nor what it is trying to do. We are trying to do a futile thing if we do not know where we came from or what we have been about…. America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the tenets of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scripture.”

    As already pointed out by OMGF, Wilson was not a founder.

    What minority, God-bashers, same-sex proponents…

    So minorities deserve no rights? How charitably Christian of you.

    “And if people like you are very much a minority but you want to reverse the trend, i hope the patriotic Americans will silence you.”

    This is the very antithesis of everything democracy [which you rightly praise] and our Constitution stands for. Additionally, I want to ask you: why is it that your Almighty Universal Truth cannot stand dissent? What fear does any Immortal have for the mortal? I suspect you want us “silenced” [now there's a chilling word; I wonder exactly how you wish this done] because our doubts give rise to your insecurities.

    Vatican is the most pagan nation in recent history as it has been from the beginning – not Christianity but rightly said, better yet: Popism, Mariology and with Christ as a figure head.

    This is a No True Scotsman argument. You realize that the Catholic church doesn’t regard you as a Christian. So who’s right?

    “God has blessed the nation but you people are doing all you can to explain it away, so you can do devilish acts.”

    I’m having a barbecue/coven meeting tonight at midnight. All are invited, but please bring your own sacrificial victim[s].

    You will not really understand the concept of real freedom, because real freedom has its limitation. Not all that is free is right and not all that is free is morally right.

    No one on this thread has advocated for anarchy. Why are you erecting straw men?

    You may not believe in Christ as God’s revelation and incarnation, but it is foolish for you not to believe in God.

    According to Matthew5:22, God should send you to Hell and torment you for eternity. You really had ought to be more careful.

    Perhaps you happened to be a fortunate immigrant who went to America, desiring only its affluence like a spoiled child unmindful of the toils of his/her forebears to establish a prosperous economy, based on God’s blessing.

    Or perhaps we come from a family which has defended America and it’s liberties for generations. I’ve proudly served my country and am not fond of someone who doesn’t know me from Adam’s housecat making assumptions about my character; kindly understand that your knowledge has limitations.

    Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution are based on Judeo-Christian teachings.

    This is palpably false. Those documents are based on the writings of Locke, Rousseau, Voltaire, and other Enlightenment thinkers.

  • Thumpalumpacus

    Hmph, I wrote “Voltaire”, but meant Montesquieu. Apologies.

    And, Cyrus, I refer you to the 11th article of the Treaty of Tripoli:

    Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

    source:http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

  • http://www.daylightatheism.org Ebonmuse

    cyrus’ latest arguments are an excellent illustration of the maxim, “When the facts and the law are against you, pound the table.” Small surprise that he’s declined to address any of the arguments or evidence posed by anyone in this thread – the clergymen of the founding era who attacked the Constitution as “godless”, the Treaty of Tripoli, the fabricated quotes from David Barton, the theocratic nature of the original colonies, or even the arguments raised in my original post – and is instead acting as if America’s status as a “Christian nation” can be established through mere stubborn repetition.

    Also, I’m especially pleased by Modusoperandi’s incisive point (another one cyrus refuses to acknowledge, naturally) that the supposedly more godly America of the founding era enslaved Africans, slaughtered Native Americans, denied women the vote, and did many other things now recognized as immoral. Those inconvenient facts do tend to trip up conservatives who unapologetically yearn for the past, and I’m rather impressed by the way cyrus manages the contortions necessary to praise the modern era’s social advances while simultaneously decrying us as godless heathens who’ve strayed from the true path laid down by our predecessors. A freethinker would probably say that the possibility of self-correction was built into the American social contract from the beginning, and we can praise our founders for their foresight in setting up such a system without excusing the other evils they committed.

    I find it fascinating that the Christian-nation propaganda has spread even to evangelicals in other countries, who presumably have no ideological stake in its being true. It may be that the virulent strain of know-nothingism that’s infected the religious right is dragging evangelical Christianity all around the world down to the lowest common denominator.

  • http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    And I missed this from cyrus’ cut-n-paste: It has created a spiritually apathetic society that hardly murmured when in 1962, citing no precedents, a liberal Supreme Court abolished prayer from the public schools and the next year abolished Bible reading from the schools.
    Repeating a lie doesn’t make it true. Neither prayer nor Bible reading are banned from public schools. School mandated prayer/bible reading is. You are free to pray and read your bible. The State (through the school) isn’t free to force you to do so. The difference is critical, and is one that’s routinely missed by the Christian Right (where the State recommending something they don’t like somehow becomes “force” and the State not forcing something somehow becomes banning it).

    The American public was conditioned to accept this and so from that time there was a startlingly great rise in teenage pregnancies (up 556%)
    No or limited sex-ed + no or limited access to contraceptives = pregnancy. Jesus, or lack of same, wasn’t involved.

    …venereal disease (up 226%)
    No or limited sex-ed + no or limited access to contraceptives = VD.

    I should note that there’s no attribution for these statistics. Statistics that can’t be double-checked are worth about as much as these magic beans.

    Family divorce which had declined for 15 years, then tripled each year since.
    Oh, grand statistics. Follow me down the rabbit hole for a moment. If divorced tripled every year after 1962 and 40% of all marriage end in divorce (as of 2008) then in 1962 .0000000000000000000000000000000003595461800933657761028850347139% of all marriages ended in divorce.

    S.A.T. scores, previously stable, declined remarkably.
    Space Race + consistently underfunded schools = falling grades. The solution isn’t more Jesus, it’s textbooks from this decade in small classes taught by teachers that aren’t perilously close to the poverty line.

    The high principles that made America great were lost.
    Don’t get me wrong, the 60′s was a period of massive social upheaval, but a return to the imagined 50′s won’t bring back the idealized America that never existed. The 50′s Mom was only happy in the kitchen because she was medicated (either professionally or “self”), and now she has to work because the modern dad doesn’t make enough money for the family and the house and the insurance and college. The 50′s dad can’t exist now because his good, solid union job moved to China. The 50′s kid still exists, but can’t roam anymore because his parents are scared shitless about…everything (whereas in the 50′s they were just afraid of Commies. And Mexicans. And Catholics. And brown people. And comic books. And rock ‘n’ roll music. And…). Most of that is economic, some of that is civil rights, little if any of that is spiritual (except in the sense that religion has been both for and against every social movement ever. Abolution? Both sides. Women’s suffrage? Both sides. To one group socialism is evil, while to another it’s liberation theology, and is good.)

  • http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    Wups, I forgot this:
    …citing no precedents…
    The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment aided by the Fourteenth.
    There, that took me almost a minute to find (and it would’ve only taken another minute or two to dig up the case in question, Engel v. Vitale (for bible reading in public schools, it’s Abington School District v. Schempp).
    Again, repeating a lie doesn’t make it true. You have a right to your opinion (in this case, someone else’s opinion, really). You do not have a right to your own facts.
    Excuse me if I come of as a bit angry, but it really bothers me when people don’t double-check their sources. It’s the same mindset that’s resulted in cries of “Death Panels!” at town hall meetings.

    Atheism isn’t a threat to democracy. Ignorance is.

  • http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    Pah! That should be “…the transcripts and full Court’s decision of the case…”.

  • Thumpalumpacus

    Atheism isn’t a threat to democracy. Ignorance is.

    Ignorance, and crappy pizza.

  • http://none cyrus

    Small surprise that he’s declined to address any of the arguments or evidence posed by anyone in this thread – the clergymen of the founding era who attacked the Constitution as “godless”, the Treaty of Tripoli, the fabricated quotes from David Barton, the theocratic nature of the original colonies, or even the arguments raised in my original post – and is instead acting as if America’s status as a “Christian nation” can be established through mere stubborn repetition.
    Response: The reason it was attacked by clergyman cause it was meant to placate the Arabs but eventually hostilities broke out and it was put to naught. unjustified
    — Finally in a stand of a Christian nation wars is resorted to and atrocities happens in wartime that is why order must be restore and peace ensues. Whatever you people say, I am glad you are in the minority and America remains to be a Christian country and predominantly Protestant.
    —. Humanism teaches atheism, autonomous man, amorality, evolution and one-world socialism. Through Dewey’s influence at Columbia University, the teachings of humanism permeated our educational system and excluded from our textbooks the moral and biblical teachings which were so much a part of our American culture. Now after two generations of Americans have been subjected to this “godless” philosophy through our schools, what are the results?
    It has created a spiritually apathetic society that hardly murmured when in 1962, citing no precedents, a liberal Supreme Court abolished prayer from the public schools and the next year abolished Bible reading from the schools. The American public was conditioned to accept this and so from that time there was a startlingly great rise in teenage pregnancies (up 556%), venereal disease (up 226%). Family divorce which had declined for 15 years, then tripled each year since. S.A.T. scores, previously stable, declined remarkably. The high principles that made America great were lost.
    A 1982 survey of top discipline problems in the public schools listed: Rape, robbery, assault, burglary, arson, bombings, murder, suicide, absenteeism, vandalism, extortion, drug abuse/pushing, alcohol abuse, gang warfare, pregnancies, abortions and venereal disease. Contrast this with discipline problems in 1940: Talking in class, chewing gum, making noise, running in halls, getting out of turn in line, not putting papers in waste baskets. What happened to our children?
    People try to blame television programs, family breakdown, drugs, alcohol and many other things as the cause of this decadence. But this thinking is too superficial, it doesn’t go deep enough. [Ebonmuse]
    — In broad sense Buddhism and Confucianism made China what it is. Shintoism made Japan what it is. Hinduism made India what it is. Islam made the middle east and North Africa what it is. Communism made 30 nations what they became.
    Reformation Christianity made America what it is – and this is the country we choose – and so would millions of others if they could.

  • http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    cyrus “The reason it was attacked by clergyman cause it was meant to placate the Arabs but eventually hostilities broke out and it was put to naught.”
    And you can back that up with what? And, if true, that still ignores virtually everything else that’s been posted here (including at least four other points in that same paragraph).

    “Finally in a stand of a Christian nation wars is resorted to and atrocities happens in wartime that is why order must be restore and peace ensues.”
    And, in a Christian Nation, who committed these atrocities? The “redskins” had an excuse for shooting (they were shooting back) and scalping (the French taught it to them). What’s America’s excuse?

    “Whatever you people say, I am glad you are in the minority and America remains to be a Christian country and predominantly Protestant.”
    I’m glad that it’s more pluralistic and more secular than it used to be. One day, perhaps, an atheist will be able to run for public office without his or her lack of religion being an issue.

    “Humanism teaches atheism, autonomous man, amorality, evolution and one-world socialism.”
    Granted, I’ve never taken a course in humanism, but it teaches what? You can be a humanist without being an atheist, no man is an island, humanist ethics are still ethics (and absolutist Biblical ethics are absolute only in the sense that they will never change until they do), evolution simply is, and “one-world socialism” is a Right Wing (Christian) bogeyman.

    “It has created a spiritually apathetic society that hardly murmured when in 1962, citing no precedents, a liberal Supreme Court abolished prayer from the public schools and the next year abolished Bible reading from the schools.”
    Okay. I’m done with you. I try to argue in good faith (occasionally, I even succeed). You, since you just cut-n-pasted the same bit that you did before (and that I’ve already countered), are arguing in bad faith.

  • http://none cyrus

    Thanks for the exchange………enjoy your freedom….I hope you won’t regret later when your end is near.

  • http://none cyrus

    Refute these again coz all you present you say are true and what I present is fabrications:

    [snip long list of cut-and-paste quotations —Ebonmuse]

  • http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    cyrus “Thanks for the exchange…”
    It was more like talking to a parrot, but you’re welcome.

    “…enjoy your freedom….I hope you won’t regret later when your end is near.”
    Pascal’s Wager? You’ve got to be kidding!

  • http://www.daylightatheism.org Ebonmuse

    If cyrus had shown any inclination to respond to the arguments being presented by others, I might have overlooked the fact that his last few posts consisted solely of cut-and-paste text from Christian apologist websites. As it is, I’m disinclined to be charitable. There’s no point arguing against someone who clearly is neither reading the replies he receives nor writing original comments of his own, and as such, I think this thread has run its course.


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