Atheists at 75%?

Not in the general population, alas. But a poll in a recent front-page post at Daily Kos, Hobbits 2.0?, had some stunning numbers:

Poll Results

The poll was about which viewpoint best fits the site contributors’ positions on human evolution, with four options corresponding to young-earth creationism, old-earth creationism, theistic evolution, and non-theistic evolution (i.e., no god involved). Not surprisingly for a progressive political site, the two creationist options received negligible support. But what I found stunning was that the no-god-involved response enormously outweighed the theistic evolution response, by a margin of better than 3-to-1!

This is a very significant result when one considers where it appeared. Daily Kos is the largest progressive political blog on the internet, averaging around 1 million hits per day, and represents a vast community of involved, motivated writers, donors, voters and activists. The fact that nonbelievers apparently predominate by such an overwhelming margin is an extremely encouraging indicator that atheists and freethinkers are becoming more and more politically involved and active, and cements our status as an important bloc of swing voters. Some would-be atheist leaders may think we should sit out elections, but this result, thankfully, is a fairly good sign that atheists in general firmly reject that defeatist strategy.

This result also, I think, conclusively refutes the all-too-common cynicism which holds that there is no meaningful difference between the two American political parties. I can personally guarantee that no major Republican or conservative site is going to show poll results anything at all like this. (Exhibit A.) I grant that there is often not enough of a difference between the two parties on several important issues. But for any American voter who cares about freedom of conscience, the choice is clear: in their present incarnation, Republicans are unapologetically the party of dominionism and theocracy. Democrats, even if they spend far too much time pandering to religious sentiment, are much more reliable when it comes to obeying the separation of church and state.

Granted, some caveats are in order: we shouldn’t put too much stock in this poll. This result is hardly scientific – its respondents are self-selected. Since the poll appeared only on the web, the respondents are likely to be disproportionately drawn from younger voters, whom we already know are increasingly secular. And since it appeared at the end of a science-related post, it’s likely to gather respondents interested in science and technology, whom we can expect to be even more secular than young voters in general. As a reflection of the general electorate, it’s not likely to be at all accurate. But it does show that there is a substantial number of freethinkers who are politically informed and active. In an America where religious voters’ loyalties are already well established, this should be a bright, blinking message for political candidates. The next one who spends some time addressing our concerns just might end up getting into office.

About Adam Lee

Adam Lee is an atheist writer and speaker living in New York City. His new novel, Broken Ring, is available in paperback and e-book. Read his full bio, or follow him on Twitter.

  • http://deconbible.blogspot.com bbk

    I still have to say… you haven’t conceded the point that Ellen Johnson’s threat of atheists to sit out the election was aimed at politicians who pander to religion, to at least get them to consider what would happen to their platform if atheists sat out. It’s called a bluff… She even said so herself and wrote you a response that you posted. This DailyKos poll just goes to show how seriously politicians should consider her threat when they choose to embrace religion.

    It’s funny how previously some people were saying that hers was a dishonest political strategy… yet, is it any more dishonest than 75% of the people supporting policies they disagree with in order to appease the other 25%???

  • Valhar2000

    Yes, BBK, she did say that it was a bluff, and Ebon rightly answered that it is a most idiotic bluff.

  • An Atheist

    I think they are pretty much ignoring us anyway. Telling them we aren’t going to vote certainly won’t make them pay more attention to us.

  • Karen

    Very interesting and encouraging – thanks for teasing that out.

    I read DailyKos occasionally and have often gotten a non-theist vibe from the comments there, but I’m surprised that the numbers are so high. Definitely all kinds of good.

  • Jim Baerg

    This poster on dailykos has explicitly stated that he is atheist.
    http://nnadir.dailykos.com/
    BTW I totally agree with him on energy policies too.

  • dutch

    Oh really now, a poll from dailykos that says 73% do not believe in a God; wow what a surprise! Here is a link to a NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll showing almost the complete opposite of dailykos.

    http://www.pollingreport.com/religion.htm

    Karen, you shouldn’t be surprised. It doesn’t surprise me that dailykos is mostly atheistic. Take heart however, according to the poll link above, your numbers are increasing, albeit slowly.

  • http://deconbible.blogspot.com bbk

    Valhar2000, you know what that attitude reminds me of? It reminds me of atheist Republicans who vote Republican in spite of the religious platform. And they argue that conservative atheists must stay with that party in order to keep it from falling any further to the religious fringe. A lot of good that attitude has gotten them, hasn’t it?

    You know why we have a 2 party system in this country instead of a real representative system? It’s because everyone on both sides has that same attitude of trying to out-do the other side with unwavering allegiance to a party that they hardly even support.

    Now, if atheists were mindless sheep who were incapable of carrying out their own political strategies, I’d wholeheartedly agree with you that Ellen’s attempt is a mindlessly idiotic strategy that could get a Republican into office again. But I don’t have such a low opinion of atheists.

  • http://www.daylightatheism.org/ Ebonmuse

    It’s called a bluff… She even said so herself and wrote you a response that you posted.

    If it bothers you, bbk, then read the sentence this way: “Some would-be atheist leaders may think we should threaten to sit out elections…” It doesn’t affect my point at all, which is that this was colossally stupid advice, regardless of whether Johnson meant it seriously or as a bluff. The way you make a difference in a democracy is by participating in the process, and by making it known that you’re doing so. Announcing that you’re going to sit out simply encourages politicians to ignore you and to focus their efforts on appealing to likely voters. No interest group yet ever won an election by staying home.

  • http://deconbible.blogspot.com bbk

    No one ever won an election by voting for the other party’s candidate in the general election, either. To be fair to Ellen, she did not say we would unconditionally sit out the election. She said we would sit it out if no candidate offers any support to our positions.

    I guess you’re of the impression that we can progressively nudge party politics by voting in their direction. But I don’t think that it works that way. You have to demand for a particular platform before you vote. Then and only then should you vote for the best compromise. The way a compromise works is you ask for more than what you think you’re going to get, not knowing how much you’ll be able to leverage the other side until they propose a middle ground.

    In that sense, there is absolutely nothing ridiculous about the position that Ellen took. There are perhaps politicians who know about her and would consider her to have some sway over members of American Atheists and other voters. And she might be getting more leverage for their cause by taking a particular stance while candidates are campaigning.

    You’re really over-reacting and making it out to be something that it isn’t. You’re also doing your best to call her bluff by creating a chorus of voices who are basically saying that you’ll vote for whomever, no matter what, so long as they’re just a little better than the other guy. So instead of trying to be a lot better, the candidates will know from hearing you that they don’t have to try very hard to win you over. Look – let her do her bluff. This isn’t a high school sociology lesson about the importance of voting, this is real life politics. The main reason that her bluff is dumb and doesn’t stand a chance of getting her any more leverage for AA positions is because just about every atheist on the web vocally opposes her move. She should have seen that coming. She’s managed to show clear as day that atheists are still a herd of cats rather than an organized voting block.

  • Joffan

    I think you’re in danger of over-interpreting this poll result. Some or even most of the 74% that believe in evolution without supernatural intervention may yet believe in god(s) for various non-evolutionary purposes. Don’t let the anti-science lunatic fringe of creationism blind you to the range of religious options that are out there.

  • James B

    At the risk of going further off-topic, isn’t part of the voting problem in the US because you’ve only got two options? Am I right in saying there really are only two parties in America? Is that enforced or de facto? In the UK there are a number of smaller parties, most of whom focus on special issues (eg: The Green party focuses on environmental issues).

    No one expects the little guys to win overall (for a start they don’t even have representatives in every constituency) – we know we’ll end up with a Labour, Conservative or possibly Liberal Prime Minister, but they can and do win individual seats in certain constituencies. This allows them to have a voting member in parliament voicing the minority’s concerns. Granted a number of these minority political parties are xenophobic in nature (as minorities surely they have to hate themselves?), but I think this allows a motivated voter to express their dissatisfaction with mainstream politics in a more accurate way. “If you want our votes, then this is the political direction in which you have to move.”

    Faced with only two choices, I’m not sure which approach (voting or not) is more expedient to atheist voters. But I feel strongly that sometimes being unsure of what’s right is reasonable and healthy, if a little frustrating! :)

  • MisterDomino

    At the risk of going further off-topic, isn’t part of the voting problem in the US because you’ve only got two options? Am I right in saying there really are only two parties in America? Is that enforced or de facto? In the UK there are a number of smaller parties, most of whom focus on special issues (eg: The Green party focuses on environmental issues).

    It’s de facto, James. While the UK has proportional representation, the US’s elector system is set up in a “winner take all” fashion. This leaves little room for smaller parties. Those parties do exist, but they lack the dollars and the manpower to win enough representation to make any important difference. If I remember my history, the largest third party movement in the United States was the Populists in the late 19th/early 20th century, though they eventually fizzled out due to economic revival after the revision of the bimetal currency standard.

    Has anyone seen that episode of The Simpsons when two aliens take the place of the running candidates in the presidential election? That came to my mind when I was thinking about my response:

    Kang: It’s true, we are space aliens. But what are you going to do about it? It’s a two-party system! You have to vote for one of us!
    Man in Crowd: Well I believe I’ll cast my vote for a third party candidate!
    Kodos: Go ahead! Throw your vote away!

    The point here is that third party candidates are treated like a big joke in our political system. Though nothing ever got done by sitting on our hands at home when the polls open; minor support is better than none at all.

  • http://deconbible.blogspot.com bbk

    James, you’re right about that. The US has a runoff election system where winner takes all in each primary and then the winner takes all in the general election. Back in college my game theory professor showed us how our style of voting tends to regress down to two dominant political parties and that there are very good odds that a loser in the primaries would have been the winner in the general elections (not the ideal outcome).

    And so as a citizen, you have to do your best to influence the platform of the candidate who you think has the best chance of winning. You don’t have the option of just voting for a platform that you like. So you have to organize yourself and others like you as a voting block and try to get as much leverage as possible from the candidates – basically sell your future votes for the highest price you can get. But remember – if you believe that your platform would keep your candidate from winning altogether, then you have to take it upon yourself to lower your asking price.

    Meanwhile, candidates have to find a balance of issues that they plan to take up while in office that will give them the support of the majority of voting blocks. A lot of times it becomes MUCH easier for the candidate to defeat the voting blocks by taking a stance on an unimportant but highly divisive issue such as immigration or gay marriage. This puts the diverse voting blocks into a prisoner’s dilemma – they have to guess how the other voting blocks will react to the divisive issues, how that changes which candidate will win, and adjust their demands from the candidate accordingly.

    This is the dilemma that atheists in America find themselves in. On the one hand, if atheists can demonstrate that their candidates will lose the election without their support, that’s a very good thing. They can threaten to abstain from voting and get more of their issues taken up by the candidate. But on the other hand, what if the candidate’s support of atheist issues would cost them the election altogether? There’s actually a real danger in being too influential. The right is showing signs of this right now – they have been captive to religious agendas for so long that it eroded much of their general support. So now the right is at an impasse – can’t win with them, can’t win without them. It will be up to the religious right to accept a more secular political platform or else they’re screwed. But do atheists have this problem? I don’t think so. I think atheists in America are at a perfect time to ask for as much as possible in the next elections.

  • Jim Baerg

    Canada (& I think the UK) has the system in which whatever candidate for an electoral district gets the largest plurality wins the seat. However, both countries have significant 3rd parties, unlike the US. I’m not sure why 3rd parties have a tougher time in the US than in Canada.

    Also regarding electoral systems: See _The Fairest Vote of All_ in the March 2004 Scientific American. The authors advocate a particular variant of the voting systems in which the voters rank all the candidates on the ballot.

  • lpetrich

    First-past-the-post with single-member districts producing a two-party system is called Duverger’s law. Proportional representation is much more friendly to multiple parties.

    Exceptions are mainly due to different parties having different regional strengths. This can happen by different parties having different regional strengths; each electoral district can have a two-party contest with the two parties being different selections in different places.

    For voting systems in general, check out voting system and a table of voting systems by nation.

    The US, UK, and Canada all use single-member districts with FPTP to elect members of legislatures, and the US President is elected by a two-stage procedure with FPTP in both stages. But most other industrialized nations prefer various semi-proportional (mixed-member) or proportional systems.

  • James B

    MisterDomino, bbk, Jim Baerg, Ipetrich,

    Many thanks for the education.

  • mikespeir

    Numbers like those Adam presents make you giddy. Then you read the story found here, http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,340492,00.html, and find yourself back on the ground , rolling around, and clutching at your middle. A secular society is just a pipe dream for now.

  • Steve Bowen

    It’s de facto, James. While the UK has proportional representation, the US’s elector system is set up in a “winner take all” fashion

    Actually at district level it is definately first past the post. The fact that third or minority parties can gain paliamentary seats is largely irrelevant as the first past the post system “usually” means that the government has a reasonable majority when it comes down to making policy.

  • Valhar2000

    Hey, BBK, do you always answer comments by stringing together pieces of arguments at random, or was that especial for me?

  • lpetrich

    The UK does NOT have proportional representation, as was stated earlier.

    However, it does something that some people confuse with PR, despite it being a completely separate issue. In the UK, whichever party or coalition of parties gets the majority of seats in Parliament gets to pick the executive branch, including the Prime Minister, the head of the government. This is sometimes called a parliamentary or Westiminster system, and is rather common among countries that have PR-elected legislatures, which may account for the confusion.

    If the US used the Westminster system, the majority party or coalition in the US Congress would pick from its members the President, the Vice President, and the Cabinet.

  • http://deconbible.blogspot.com bbk

    Valhar2000, your initial comment back to me was very contemptuous and abrasive, so I wasn’t going to spend a whole lot of time answering it. Yes, it’s just you. Let me remind you again how Ebeon referred to Johnson’s tactic:

    Some would-be atheist leaders may think we should sit out elections

    Had he conceded to Johnson that this was indeed a bluff aimed at politicians, not at atheist voters, then he would have not referred to it in this way. You really missed my point, which was for Ebon to be a little more fair to Ellen Johnson. As supposedly rational atheists, we do not need to distort each others’ positions even if we don’t agree with them. If anything was random and non-sequitur, it was your own comment. You’re really not going to do a good job claiming that anything is idiotic if you yourself can’t put forth a competent response.

  • Pingback: Humanist Symposium #17 | Mind on Fire

  • http://www.puleo-art.com Michael J. Puleo

    THE MESSAGE:

    We are all born imperfect and we must use the opportunities and events in this earthly life to perfect ourselves as far as possible. We must use them according to the direction of our intelligence and according to the wisdom of God’s law. Temptation simply brings out what is in a person. One knows him or her best when they deal with temptation. It proves their faults and tests their virtues and just how much they really desire to earn Heaven. It is seen by what they do to reach it. How much one person loves GOD is seen by how much they are willing to do for Him and if we have a daily relationship with Him whether be it through prayer or just regular talk via conversation. It means nothing to GOD if a BILLIONAIRE donates money for a good cause if that person had an ulterior motive or has no idea of really what’s going on, on the spiritual level. If that person does have a relationship with God then it is a blessing and their reward in Heaven will be great. For the atheist as each second ticks away their life will eventually end into nothingness, as they will regret their actions and ways when they were alive. With all the success a person has, Why so much unbelief and unhappiness?

    Jesus Christ is the son of GOD. God transformed Himself into a human (without sin), performed miracles, loved others, preached words of TRUTH then was sacrificed by a beating and death on the cross. Jesus Christ didn’t defend Himself and sacrificed His life for us. He wants us to know that HE (GOD) knows what we experience as humans. As a result we have a chance at LIVING after death. His mother, Mary the Virgin Mother was with Christ and the Holy Spirit on with God at the beginning of time. She is most feared in hell and Satan’s head will be crushed under her heel. Jesus’ relationship with His mother on earth was a wholesome, beautiful relationship. She bore Him without intercourse because She was pre-selected by God. And for those who blame God for today’s problems, you need to blame Satan and Adam from the Garden of Eden who truly cursed the human race with pains, labors, trials, and controversies.

    PLEASE REMEMBER THERE IS NO FREE, EASY RIDE TO ETERNAL FREEDOM.

    Some people feel that because they are from a good moral family and they carry the family’s last name they are automatically saved and will be rewarded Heaven. This is incorrect; you cannot ride on another’s coat tails. Everyone is responsible for his or her own destiny. Many people are too interested in following their daily occupations and interests to bother how God wants them to follow these things. People do not deny God’s wisdom in theory. They simply disregard it in practice. People are afraid of losing some worldly advantage or earthly enjoyment. They want to get to Heaven with the least possible inconvenience to themselves. They work, sweat, and sacrifice for their earthly interests. Their only check is their fear of hell, not their love for God. Some are so distracted by the pursuit of knowledge that they no longer consider their faults and defects. If we were as diligent in rooting out vices and acquiring virtues, as we are eager for knowledge, the world would be a better place. Some preferred to be honored rather than be humbled, and they are lost in their own self-centered imaginings. They are ruined through vain learning and unprofitable knowledge because we most of the time forget God. It is better to be great that merely to be considered great. You will be great if you learn God’s words and act on them in our daily lives. If we merely talk about a holy life, you may impress people, but God knows us for what we are-a failure forever. Knowledge is of no value unless it makes you a better person in God’s eyes.

    This lives of ours are a spiritual battle with good and bad spirits unseen, that is unless you are someone like me and many others who witnesses a strange frightening demon spirit.
    If you do not believe in God, then believe in Hell. Either way your life will improve because to avoid hell is to live for God and vice verse.

    Though a person may disregard God’s Holy Commandments during his earthly life, they will have to account for them sooner or later. The greatest catastrophe, which can befall a person, is an unprovided death. At present he or she can help himself themselves by admitting God’s truth and living it out through service to the needy. Though they had a lifetime to take advantage of God’s love and mercy they now face His justice. The Divine Justice will reward the person according to their earthly life and they will go to Heaven or hell.

    Few things in this earthly life are absolutely certain. The most undebateable of these is death. Every person, even the atheist, will admit this much. Think often of it, and remember that time lost will never return. We do not have a lasting dwelling on this earth. In this life we are like travelers. We will never find rest united we are united with the ultimate Law Maker.

    Like a river that flows ever onward toward the sea, the current of daily life moves ever onward toward the Day of Judgment. On that day, the Just shall stand against those who annoyed and persecuted them. Those who humbly bore the judgments of their fellow men will rise to judge the rest on that day. The poor and the humble will have great confidence and joy, but the proud and the selfish lovers of this world will have many reasons to be afraid. All wrongdoing will be silenced and condemned, while every suffering endured with patience, will bring joy and gladness. The unreligious will be sad. Many will thank God for the hardships and trials, which they bore on earth. God’s loyal followers will have greater merit than the human might of this world. Simple obedience to His laws will be more highly praised than all earthly cleverness. In the Day of Truth a pure and good conscience will bring more joy than mere learning. The person who refused to sin for earthly gain, will be the envy of those who lived for this world. In refusing to follow God’s ways, a person chooses to exist without Him. They turn their backs on Him as the fallen angels did. If he or she dies in this condition, they condemn themselves to hell. The jury, which convicts a person, is his or her own sinful life. God merely pronounces sentence on what they have chosen. It is final and sets the final seal on truth for all to see.

    All the sufferings known to people are nothing in comparison with the sufferings of hell. The wise person would rather bear any trial on earth than place himself or herself in danger of hell. One single hour of hell is harder than a hundred years of suffering on earth. In this earthly life people have some rest from their labors and trials. They get some measure of consolation from their friends. In hell, however, there is no rest, no consolation, and no friends. The fires of hell will never die. There will be no end to suffering. One will find no comfort in knowing that he has been there a thousand years. He or she can never hope for an end to their tortures. All the other sufferings would be bearable if only the damned could hope for relief. Despair is hell’s bitterest pain.

    In hell a person will be punished through the same faults by which they sinned on earth. Each sin will have its own particular torment. The lazy will be forced to work continuously; the gluttonous will be tormented with extreme hunger and thirst. The proud will be filled with confusion, and the greedy will feel the pinch of miserable want. And yet the worst pain of hell is none of these. The people in hell would gladly bear all of this and much more if only they could hope for God’s friendship and love, no matter how long it may take, be it even a billion years from now. Their keenest torment is that they have forever lost God, the Source of all true joy and perfect happiness. This suffering makes hell the home of despair and undying hatred. According to the Catechism Of The Christian Faith, one example of a mortal sin is not keeping the Sabbath, although one of the 10 Commandments, unrepented of in one’s lifetime is a condition to condemn a person to hell for eternity. Why is this so when God is everywhere? We were made by God and for God, to be united with Him after we die. What we cannot see is a whole world of good and bad spirits surrounding each one of us, fighting and struggling for the winning / capture of our souls. Satan attacks our minds with images and works on our feelings to destroy us. This is why many successful people are miserable and do not have peace of mind. The simple acronym JOY means to have a unique sense of peace. You must put Jesus (GOD) first, second take care of others and then He will provide for you, that is Jesus Others, You. A100 years on Earth is but a second in the context of eternity. What is done is done, no turning back, pain and torture forever!! Why has a good, loving God allow pain and suffering in this world? It is because without pain and suffering no one would pray to Him for everything would be just dandy and fine. For those who have pride, remember pride before destruction, humility before promotion. No guts, no glory, no pain, no gain, no Cross, no crown.

    When God Most High has pronounced the final decree that a person shall die the soul leaves the body to return to the one who gave it. Immediately it praises the glory of God Most High. For people who have no use for the ways of God and hated those who worshipped Him there is no place to rest. They wander around in torment, grief, and sorrow. Their torment will progress in seven stages. The first is that they ignored the Laws of God; second they can no longer make a sincere repentance and obtain life. Third, they see the reward stored for those who put their faith in the covenants of God. Fourth, they think about the torment that has been stored up for them in the last days. Fifth, they see angels guarding the homes of other souls in complete silence. Sixth, they recognize that they soon will be tormented. Seventh and worse of all, when they see the glory of God they are sick with remorse and shame. They cringe in fear, because while they were living they sinned against God. And now they are about to come before Him to be judged on the last day. For those who followed the ways of God in their lives, after the soul leaves their mortal bodies they will enter their rest in seven stages of joy. The first is to have struggled hard and won the victory over the evil impulse, which was formed in them, but did not succeed in leading them from life to death. The second is to see the endless wandering of the souls of the wicked and the punishment that is waiting for them. The third is to know what a good report God has given about them, that during their lifetime they kept the Law that was entrusted to them. The fourth is to appreciate the rest that they are to enjoy in the places where they have been brought together, guarded by angels, in complete silence, and with the glory that is waiting for them at the last day. The fifth is to rejoice that they have now escaped the corrupt world and that they will receive the future life as their possession, They can now see the narrow, troubled world from which they have been freed and the spacious world they will receive and enjoy forever. The sixth is to be shown how their faces will like the sun and how they are to be like the light of the stars that never die. The seventh joy and the best of all is when we rush to God to meet Him face-to-face, with perfect trust and happiness, without any shame or fear.

    At times you hear people say they are too busy to bother with religion. People who say these things do not understand God, or themselves, or their daily life. They do not realize that religion is as necessary an activity as eating, sleeping, and working. The person who neglects this part of their life is abnormal, that is, they are not what he or she ought to be. They are neglecting something, which is natural and normal for them, something that perfects them more than they realize. Think of death as a gateway to Heaven. Learn to look upon your earthly life as a great opportunity to make a worthy preparation for Heaven. Never forget these words: “Blessed is the servant whom the Lord finds watching when He comes. Indeed I tell you, He will place him over all His possessions.”

    THE KEYS TO FREEDOM: Respecting oneself and others, repentance for wrongdoing, helping others who are needy only because you thank God for what He has given you, forgiving others and yourself. Forgiving oneself is important, after we have received forgiveness from God first. This allows us to have that spring in our step and to shine like a beacon of light to the weary, the lonely hearted, the oppressed, the widows and widowers, the orphans and the ignorant. To understand fully that we are forgiven if we are sorry for our wrongdoings and instantly we are renewed. Pray in the beginning of the day for your daily bread and you will find at least one interesting event / happening which will get you through each day of our lives to sustain us, chin up, shoulders back, confident.

  • OMGF

    It means nothing to GOD if a BILLIONAIRE donates money for a good cause if that person had an ulterior motive or has no idea of really what’s going on, on the spiritual level.

    What about the ulterior motive of doing something because one wants to go to heaven? Does god care about that?

    If that person does have a relationship with God then it is a blessing and their reward in Heaven will be great.

    Why does god wait to bless people like that? Isn’t god cursing them daily by not bringing them to paradise?

    For the atheist as each second ticks away their life will eventually end into nothingness, as they will regret their actions and ways when they were alive. With all the success a person has, Why so much unbelief and unhappiness?

    What unhappiness? I’m quite content and happy with my life. Are you saying that atheists must be unhappy? And the converse, must Xians be happy with their life? If anything it should be the reverse. Atheists understand that this is their only life, so they strive to make it a happy one. Xians, OTOH, are seeking paradise in the next life, so this life is an unhappy stop on the way to being truly happy. Logically, Xians should want to die so that they can go to heaven.

    Jesus Christ is the son of GOD. God transformed Himself into a human (without sin), performed miracles, loved others, preached words of TRUTH then was sacrificed by a beating and death on the cross. Jesus Christ didn’t defend Himself and sacrificed His life for us.

    Yup, he sacrificed himself to himself so that he could convince himself to forgive us for the sins that he himself caused us to commit. Your god truly is beyond comprehension, because I don’t know how anything could come up with such a convoluted, nonsensical plan. Why does your loving god demand sacrifice anyway, and why human sacrifice? Why is the Xian god so bloodthirsty?

    He wants us to know that HE (GOD) knows what we experience as humans.

    Didn’t he know before he became human, being omniscient and all? BTW, you just admitted that god is not perfect, because he is not immutable.

    Your post is so long though (and coming from me and my penchant for being long winded, that’s quite a statement). I’ll just cut to the chase. Your theology doesn’t make sense, it has so many holes and logical problems. Yet, I’d be willing to give it the benefit of the doubt if you had any evidence to back up your claims. So, how about it? God any evidence?

  • mikespeir

    Thank you for the sermon, Michael J. Puleo, but I’ve sat through thousands of them. Preached a few myself.

    You see, the problem of sermonizing, a la, 1 Corinthians 1, is that all it does is declare. The “sermonizer” arrogates unto himself an unearned mantle of believability. He supposes he will be heard and believed simply because of his confident words and air of authority. But rather than unfolding convincing evidence to gain believers, he preaches in lieu of evidence. Thus, the dichotomy Paul mentioned in the Corinthians reference. He thought he could get away with poisoning the well against the Greeks, who demanded more than just loud declamations. He did this as a hedge against the deficiencies in his own philosophy. The Greeks knew well enough that people can con themselves into utter confidence in propositions that have no real evidentiary undergirding at all. That’s why they demanded more. That’s why practically none of them were swayed by Paul’s sermon on Mars hill. (Acts 17)

    Now, if you want to come back with some actual evidence for what you’ve preached, I’m sure we’ll be all ears. Otherwise, you’ve just wasted our time with the cut-and-paste sermon.