Perkins Argues With Caller Over The Gay

A caller to Tony Perkins’ radio show tried to talk a little sense into him on the subject of same-sex marriage, prompting Perkins to make the usual stupid arguments. If we give gays equal rights, he says, everyone will suddenly become and there won’t be a next generation!

Perkins: There’s actually more of a historical basis for polygamy than there’s ever been for same-sex marriage because same-sex marriage has never existed for the last ten years at best.

Caller: Well it is a new thing I’ll grant you that, I understand that the phrasing ‘natural marriage’ is great, it fits really great on a bumper sticker, but I just don’t think it means anything and I’m trying to understand what that’s supposed to mean.

Perkins: How do you plan on giving birth to the next generation?

Caller: That’s the thing, how many same-sex marriages are there out there? What is it, 2 percent, 3 percent of the total number of marriages? I don’t think that we’re going to have to worry about the next generation.

Perkins: But if it’s normative and it’s normal then we would say we would want more of it if it’s beneficial.

Caller: Well no, I don’t think that’s it at all. People don’t suddenly one day decide to become gay, you’re either gay or you’re not. I’ve never met anyone who just scratched their head and went, ‘you know what I think I’m into guys now’ or ‘I think I’m into girls now,’ it just doesn’t happen.

Perkins: …Okay. What does that have to do with marriage? What does that have to do with redefining marriage, redefining the curriculum in our schools?

Caller: Well you’re saying that we have to worry about the next generation, I’m saying that there is a very small portion of the population, probably less than 10 percent, that are gay. I think that the next generation is going to come along whether we want it to or not, it’s not about—

Perkins: No, because what happens when you change and you say heterosexual marriage is the same as homosexual marriage, then you change the curriculum in your schools and you have kids, as a natural part of growing up and developing, they’re curious and they don’t know, and we’re exposing them to even more sexuality and overt sexual messages and we’re telling them, ‘hey experiment.’ And that is what leads, in many cases, to children going down a particular path, is early childhood sexual exposure, sometimes it’s traumatic. And by normalizing that and mainstreaming that, what you will do is you will have more children going down that path and that’s why they want to get this message into our schools.

Caller: I understand your argument but is there any data to support that?

Perkins: What do you mean any data to support it?

Caller: You are saying if you expose children to homosexuality you will have more homosexuals.

Perkins: Well if you sexualize a culture — I can tell you the data is very clear on what’s happened in the last 30 to 40 years where we have inundated young people, children, with sexual messages and they become sexually active. So when you take and mix into that homosexuality and other forms of sexuality into that, yes they are going to move down that path, they are going to engage in what you tell them about.

Uh, yeah. But see, I’m around gay people all the time. I know lots and lots of gay people. And I don’t think there’s anything remotely wrong or immoral about being gay. So why, if Perkins is right, have I not been tempted to start having sex with men? Oh, right — because I’m not gay. It sounds to me like Tony’s a little concerned about his own sexuality.

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  • freehand

    Perkins: What do you mean any data to support it?


    I think this pretty much sums it up.

  • matty1

    Just what does he think is being taught in schools. Does he imagine the timetable goes English, Chemistry, Butt secks?

  • Trebuchet

    Ed, I believe the word “gay” is missing from your second sentence:

    If we give gays equal rights, he says, everyone will suddenly become and there won’t be a next generation!

  • Sansgawd

    What fucking date is there to say that children are more sexually active now? From what I understand, teenagers have ALWAYS wanted to fuck EVERYTHING!

  • Scr… Archivist

    I think I see what Perkins is driving at. He seems to be saying that children will grow up thinking homosexuality is a valid way of developing one’s sexuality and will choose to be gay. He’s wrong, of course, since that’s isn’t how it works, but that’s seems to be what he thinks.

    Secondly, he seems to be saying that the vast majority of children will choose to be gay, ignoring the examples of heterosexuality that are also all around them growing up (like, from their parents). Of course, he doesn’t even hint at a reason why kids would gravitate more toward homosexuality than to any other form of sexuality.

    Finally, if 98% of people are turning gay, we’ll have a sudden implosion in population, because gay people can’t bear children. Again, never mind that this isn’t true either.

    So, obviously, if you normalize homosexuality, kids will choose it. In fact, almost all of them will, and since gays can’t reproduce, there will be hardly any children in future generations. Because reasons. We will no longer be going forth and multiplying, and Yahweh will punish us.

    Maybe this is the kind of nonsensical scenario the fascists in Russia are scaring themselves with.

  • richardelguru

    If Perkins was correct the upper classes in England would have died out years ago. Because Public School!

  • richardelguru

    In the context of my post about the English Public School, I should of course have written “If Perkins were correct…”

  • matty1

    If Perkins was correct the upper classes in England would have died out years ago

    They did, we just don’t like to talk about the dark rites done to preserve their zombie corpses. Suffice is to say it requires 10cc of fox blood and a copy of the Daily Telegraph folded into a pentagram.

  • richardelguru

    Matty: that’s just sick (especially the bit about the Turdigraph…Euch!! Euch!!)

  • besomyka

    @5 – I suspect that people who make that argument sincerely are closeted. The only way I can understand how someone in good faith could mistakenly coming to that conclusion is if they had to ‘choose’ their sexuality, which is to say they had to deny their nature and choose to be in an opposite sex relationship for reasons that are clearly important to them. I could see someone who did that mistakenly extrapolating their own choice as a more universal way of being.

    Unfortunately, while you can use social pressure to force many same-sex attracted people to be in opposite-sex relationships, the result is depression, anxiety, and higher rates of suicide. There is a price to be paid and it hurts society.

  • beezlebubby

    Of course, not every delusional god-bot who is virulently anti-gay is a closet case, but I can’t help but wonder about that whenever a preacher, or some other anti-gay scold, goes on and on about “the temptations of homosexuality” or some other similar expression. As a straight man, I’ve never once in my life been tempted to make love with another man. I’m definitely a strong ally, but the idea of male-on-male sex thing does nothing for me. In Perkins case, I’m almost positive he IS tempted, which is why he has to fight so hard against it. He’s very likely a self-loathing closeted gay man, shielding himself from his own true identity in a cloak of Bible-based bigotry.

    I would take a moment to have compassion for him, except for all of the real harm he inflicts on gay people daily, especially gay people of faith.

  • Menyambal — making sambal a food group.

    Weren’t they arguing that the human race would die out because of abortion, just a few decades back? Everybody would get abortions, and the Russians would take over! (Seriously, I heard that said seriously.)

  • fmitchell

    An alternative to Perkins being a “closet case” is that he literally cannot tell the difference between “it’s OK to do X” and “everybody go do X”.

    Perkins may spent his formative years doing exactly what his father / pastor / teachers told him (at least in his memory). The thought that anyone can choose how to live their life, or that alternate paths aren’t “wrong”, is utterly alien to him. He always did what he was told (he tells himself), therefore children will do whatever they hear is OK. (Quick anecdote: when I was a kid my mother was horrified at the novelty song “My Momma Told Me Not To Put Beans In My Ears” because children would put beans in their ears, something they never would have thought of on their own.)

    Add to that warnings that Satan tempts people off the straight-and-narrow, and the notion of “sin” and “wickedness” which glosses over why people do things, and he just might sincerely believe that if you don’t tell kids day after day that something is “evil” they’ll all run off and do it.

  • matty1

    Well I’m not going to look for it again but I’m sure I read a comment online recently along the lines of “don’t worry homosexuals and people who practice abortion will all die out soon since they’re not reproducing”. The density of stupid prevents me explaining why this is not entirely accurate.

  • fmitchell

    On reflection, maybe the theory is that if children know something exists, they’ll all want to do it.

  • caseloweraz

    Racing cars is a normal, even highly respected activity. That’s why the last generation of kids went out and killed themselves off by drag-racing and crashing on the public streets.

  • sinned34

    fmitchell @15:

    Also, children are stupid and easily confused. If they learn that gays/atheists/democrats/socialists exist, then they won’t learn to be exactly like their parents.

  • d.c.wilson

    Perkins doesn’t need data. He has Faith!

  • D. C. Sessions

    An alternative to Perkins being a “closet case” is that he literally cannot tell the difference between “it’s OK to do X” and “everybody go do X”.

    As in, “everything not forbidden is compulsory.”

  • marcus

    Sometimes I truly wonder if some of these folks might actually be bisexual, maybe they think it is a choice for everyone because it is a choice for them.

  • matty1

    he literally cannot tell the difference between “it’s OK to do X” and “everybody go do X”.

    Exactly, jokes aside not all homophobes are self loathing closet cases but this is a perfect summary of authoritarianism. The whole concept of people being free to do different things is impossible if you believe there is One True Way to live and so anyone who is different must be advocating that their One True Way be as universal as Perkins would like his to be.

  • Gretchen

    Perkins is not aware that, generally speaking, people do not become homosexuals by having intercourse with people of the same sex. That, generally speaking, homosexuals know they are homosexuals long before they have sex with anyone, which is– funnily enough– the same way that heterosexuals know that they are heterosexuals: by who they want to have sex with.

    He’s right about one thing, which is that if you tell kids that homosexual relationships are equal to heterosexual relationships, more of them will be openly gay. But he never got around to explaining why that would be a bad thing.

  • sigurd jorsalfar

    So the legalization of gay sex didn’t lead to demographic suicide, but the legalization of gay marriage will. Makes perfect sense.

  • freehand

    Before my wife and I left Californica about 28 years ago, we had a roommate. Said roommate had recently broken up with her husband, and had a new baby. The baby boy was perhaps three months old. She worried deeply and constantly that he might be gay.


    “Barb”, we’d say. “It doesn’t matter, and in any event he’s three freakin’ months old! He isn’t anything yet sexually, in any way that means anything. Relax.”


    But she couldn’t relax, She worried unceasingly, and verbalized constantly. I can very well imagine that that poor boy, now in his late twenties, might be deathly worried about being gay and looking for “subtle” signs in himself and others. You don’t have to be a closeted gay to be obsessed with it.


    I like to think that he has left that environment, dropped the craziness, and has moved so far away that he communicates with her only by email.

  • EnlightenmentLiberal

    — I can tell you the data is very clear on what’s happened in the last 30 to 40 years where we have inundated young people, children, with sexual messages and they become sexually active.

    Oh boy, this old Canard. Sansgawd mentioned this above, and he’s entirely correct. It is a fiction that kids today have more sexual knowledge at an earlier age compared to previous generations. It’s just complete bullshit from rose-colored glasses. It’s nostalgia of something which was never there.

  • matty1

    @25 Is it possible they have, at least in some places, more accurate sexual knowledge? Obviously the idea that teenagers in the past didn’t know about sex is as absurd as the fiction that they don’t have sexual feelings until told about them. But our societies understanding of things like sexually transmitted diseases is surely greater than 100 years ago and if this informs sex education I would say that their knowledge is relatively higher, in a good way.

  • D. C. Sessions

    And on the other hand, the great majority of children 200 years ago grew up in rural areas. Yeah, that.

    And as for kids in town, leash laws and routine neutering of stray dogs and cats? Yeah, them.

  • EnlightenmentLiberal

    Is it possible they have, at least in some places, more accurate sexual knowledge?

    Sure. At least I hope so.

  • dogmeat

    As I told my wife a few years ago. Once Arizona legalizes gay marriage we’re through and she’s out. I’m just waiting for the legal justification and some handsome young man to sweep me off my feet and put a ring on my finger!

    Oh, wait… nope, still not gay.