People Magazine: Michelle Duggar says, "We're ready for more!"

What if God hates Quiverfull? How would Jim Bob & Michelle know?

by Vyckie

In the latest issue of People magazine, Jim Bob & Michelle Duggar say they are ready to consider a 20th child.

The only thing that surprises me about this statement is the fact that Michelle is not already pregnant ~ I was predicting that she’d make an announcement when she received that “Mother of the Year” award at Vision Forum’s Baby Conference last month.

Since writing the latest NLQ FAQ: Which of Your Kids Would You Rather Had Never Been Born?, I have been thinking more about confirmation bias and Quiverfull.

Specifically, I wonder, “What if God hates Quiverfull ~ what could He do to communicate His disapproval of prolific and indiscriminate reproduction to the Duggars, who claim to be “following [their] convictions”?

Let me explain what I mean.

When I first began to hear about the Quiverfull conviction of trusting the Lord with my family planning ~ leaving my reproductive life completely in His capable hands ~ I convinced my (ex)husband, Warren to have a vasectomy reversal.  The surgery was successful and I immediately got pregnant ~ confirmation that Quiverfull was indeed God’s will for our family.

Everything that could possibly go wrong during that pregnancy did: gestational diabetes, preeclampsia, polyhydramnios, emergency c-section ~ that’s just the short list ~ the full story was an absolute nightmare.

Afterward, friends and family came to visit me in the hospital and all of them asked, Are you really sure this is what God called you to do?

In trying to explain to myself how that pregnancy ~ in which I had fully trusted in God ~ could go so wrong, I imagined the following scene in Heaven:

God to Satan: Have you considered my servant, Vyckie? She is completely faithful to me ~ even risking her life to be obedient to My calling.

Satan: Well, of course Vyckie serves You and loves You ~ look at all You have done for her ~ You’ve blessed her beyond measure.  Take away Your protection and blessing ~ and watch her curse You to Your face!

God to Satan:  No ~ Vyckie would never deny Me ~ “Though He slay me” is her life verse.  Go ahead ~ check it out ~ do your worst ~ only don’t kill her ~ and see how she continues to love Me.

So it was a test ~ and God obviously was so pleased with my sincere and wholehearted devotion to Him ~ He had me in the same category as Righteous Job, in whom He had full confidence.  This to me was confirmation that Quiverfull was indeed God’s will for our family.

Baby number five was born at home ~ an almost unheard of HBA4C (home birth after 4 cesareans ~ Google that and see how many stories come up besides mine ~ none that I know of) ~ obviously, I had proven myself faithful in being willing to conceive again even after coming so close to death with my previous pregnancy that I actually felt my spirit being sucked down that long black tunnel that you hear about.  And now, God was blessing me with my first vaginal delivery ~ a victorious home birth!  Wow ~ of course, this was confirmation that Quiverfull was indeed God’s will for our family.

Many good things happened in our family life during our Quiverfull years.  We started a “pro-life, pro-family” newspaper which grew into a profitable business/ministry which supported our growing family quite comfortably.  The governor of Nebraska presented us with the 2003 “Family of the Year” award at the Nebraska Family Council’s Salt & Light banquet.  We were able to have our home remodeled ~ completing our full basement and adding an extra bathroom and two more bedrooms.  All these blessings were confirmation that Quiverfull was indeed God’s will for our family.

When my seventh pregnancy ended in an emergency c-section due to partial uterine rupture ~ the doctor recommended that I never get pregnant again.  However ~ he did not perform a hysterectomy ~ so I still had my uterus ~ how could I know what the Lord wanted me to do with it?  “Seems to me that God’s made it very clear what He wants,” the doctor told me.  But to me, it wasn’t clear at all.  If God wanted me to stop having babies ~ He could have arranged it so that I did not have any choice about it.  Obviously, He wanted me to continue to trust Him.

About that time, things were getting more and more overwhelming and intense at home ~ Warren’s personality disintegrated to the point that he was driving us all crazy ~ I could not keep up with the homeschooling or the home business ~ my oldest daughter was struggling with serious depression ~ during this time, I constantly had a mental image in my head of a huge black and white target on the roof of our home ~ all our efforts to advance the Kingdom of God had caught The Enemy’s attention and now we were in the midst of his evil frontal assault.  Naturally, this was confirmation that Quiverfull was indeed God’s will for our family.

So here’s the deal:

As a Quiverfull believer, whenever anything that could be considered good or positive happened in my life ~ I took it as proof that I was doing right and therefore, God was blessing me.

Conversely, whenever anything occurred which wasn’t so great ~ trials, tragedies, hardships ~ these I considered as evidence that I was doing right and therefore, Satan was upset and he was determined to make me regret having chosen the Quiverfull path.

Either way ~ I *knew* beyond a shadow of a doubt that my Quiverfull ideals were God’s will for me.

I see that same confirmation bias in Jim Bob and Michelle’s recent statements with regard to their conviction to trust the Lord with their family planning.

“Our family is stronger than ever,” Jim Bob, 45, tells PEOPLE in its new issue. “We made it through the storm.”

So here’s what I’d like to ask Quiverfull believers:  What if God hates Quiverfull?  What if He’s embarrassed by the poor witness to “the World” which only sees irresponsible and narcissistic parents building their own little fiefdoms?  What if God thinks Quiverfullers put too much emphasis on the “be fruitful and multiply” part of the Dominion Mandate and not enough on stewardship and “tending the garden”?  What if God (gasp!) actually values women for more than just their ability to get pregnant and have babies?  What if the Lord cares about little baby Josie ~ and wants her to have all the benefits of her mother’s loving, undivided attention?  What if God wanted to tell the Duggars to stop? 

What could He do to get His message across? 

Obviously, preeclampsia and a micro-preemie baby didn’t convince them ~ in fact, the challenges seem to have strengthened their determination to follow their Quiverfull beliefs.

“People think we are overpopulating the world,” says Jim Bob. “We are following our convictions.”

Discuss this post on the NLQ forum.  Comments are also open below.

  • http://tapati.livejournal.com/ Tapati

    Ah the power of magical thinking.

    I have been guilty of it myself. It is comforting to think that the Supreme Being takes a personal interest in the everyday events of your life. How special we are!

    But then I look at the over 6 billion people on the planet and imagine that Being keeping track of each event in each of their lives. Plus let’s not forget the many stars in our galaxy, many of them having planets that may support intelligent life. Our galaxy itself is one of…well, more than we can count, each galaxy having still more stars and planets with life.

    That is sure one very busy Supreme Being, if He or She is indeed involved personally with every person on every planet with life in every galaxy.

    Oh but wait, there’s more! Evidence shows that there are more universes than the one we inhabit, each with their own galaxies, stars and planets.

    Wouldn’t even a Supreme Being have to delegate, just a little?

  • Bobbi

    I came across this site yesterday, while searching for words to send to a friend who is also a Quiverful mother (one of several I know) and who disagreed (quite vehemently) with my views on the situation of the Duggars. You have stated, quite succinctly, what I spent hours trying to say. And I cannot understand how women and men can continue to do this! God has told us that we are to be good stewards – of the Earth, of our children, of our husband or wife. How is putting a mother’s life in danger being a good steward of her? How is that protecting her as a man is called to do?

    Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband. Eph 5:25-30, 32 (NIV)

    To me, and I am not in the Quiverful movement, this reads to say that a man should not put his wife in a position he wouldn’t put himself in. To do so would be against God’s call to “love their wives as their own bodies.” Would this man carry and labor 20 children? Why would he insist his wife do what he, himself, would not do?

    I confess, I am not well-versed in the Quiverful movement and the scripture they base their belief on. I am still learning. Thank you for this site where I can learn, from those who have lived it.

    I pray for this family. I pray for those poor children.

  • Barbara

    The Duggars should be able to do what they want, but this garbage shouldn’t be on TV and it shouldn’t be on the cover of People Magazine. The TV machine has shows on which glorify women having lots of kids, like Octomom and John & Kate Plus 8. Though these characters are hardly Godly, according to the Duggars’ philosophy, they influence young people. The world already has too many people and land and resources are getting more and more scarce. (I’m not condemning you good people who already have big families, I just think that folks should start considering population limitation NOW).

    Knowing what I know about the Duggars, thanks to you wonderful women, I want them off of the air. At the very least, I think that people like Ms. Garrison and Ms. Kunsman should be allowed on Oprah or The View, so they can let people know how damaging the Quiverfull philosophy is.

    You know, when my dad did our family history, he discovered that my great-great grandmother, who had 18 kids, and 9 who lived to adulthood, finally kicked my great-great grandfather out of the house. They were Catholic, so divorce was out of the question. The old man lived in a boarding house and the old lady kept the house. My great-great grandmother could have told Michelle Duggar a thing or two!!!

    Ms. Garrison, you might want to know that my great great grandparents didn’t live in New York, or Boston, where new-fangled ideas are born, but in Omaha, Nebraska!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Barbara

    I believe that God cares for all of his/her creations, and he/she endowed human beings with enough brains so that we could take care of ourselves. If he/she had wanted us to remain in nature, then we couldn’t have become bipedal creatures. We wouldn’t have invented tools and medicines which made our lives easier.

  • mamawama

    I am the mom of a big family ( 13 children) and I believe that God is capable of choosing who He wants to bring into the world. God doesn’t hate quiverfull because that would go against His word. He says over and over that children are a blessing, a reward, and many of them will bring much happiness. The world says that children are a hassle, an inconvenience, and suck up all the air. I think God is also concerned with stewardship. But you didn’t give any examples of people exhibiting poor stewardship. The Duggars take good care of their children, and no one else was mentioned. The Quiverfull folks that I know are very “into” their family and spend most of their time and energy on their children. That is good stewardship.

    Of course God values women above their ability to get pregnant. Quiverfull people do not believe that the only thing God wants them to do is be pregnant. It is just one part of being a Godly woman. If I listed all the ways God values women, this post would be mighty long.

    God cares more for baby Josie than anyone, and in His infinite wisdom He chose to put her into a family as their 19th baby. He knows that she will have endless care from so many loving people. How can that be wrong?

    The bottom line is that God makes children. Two people can have sex all the time, but without the power of God, there will be no baby. Most people realize that their children are from God, and not just biology. People describe their babies as blessings from God or a miracle, not our little biology experiment.

    I am sorry that you have walked away from God. But I am happy that the Duggars are standing by their convictions. I also think that in times of drastic circumstances, like your ruptured uterus, prayerfully abstaining might be the best plan. Michelle Duggar has not been told by any doctor that she should stop having children. Her doctor actually commented that her uterus looked great. Her risks were part of that pregnancy. The gall stones are gone. So, I agree with them that if God sends another baby their direction, that would be wonderful.

  • http://www.undermuchgrace.com Cindy Kunsman

    The confirmation bias in the Duggars’ system works both ways. Gothard, whom they follow, teaches that if they abandon their true way, they’ve exited the umbrella of protection and great harm will befall them. God will “get them” in wrath and they loose his “covering.” They can’t leave Quiverfull without fearing God’s retaliation.

    Though life is full of tragedy and bad things happen, or even just natural changes of aging, this can be interpreted through confirmation bias as God’s judgment. It’s the dark side of the “evidence” of their legalism. The warm, fuzzy “blessings” make for great TV. The punishments don’t really pull in the ratings.

  • kilda

    This is exactly the kind of illogical thinking I’ve noticed in my friends who are fundamentalist Christians. One of my oldest friends was married with a 3 year old and 8 1/2 months pregnant, when her husband told her that he had been cheating on her for years and wanted a divorce. Devastated and with no way to support herself, she moved in with her parents 2 weeks later with her son and her newborn. They ended up splitting up and she was concerned about HIV and other STDs because her husband had been very promiscuous in his affairs. So she got tested and both she and her kids were fine. And she told me this was proof of how good God was to her. And I’m thinking, couldn’t he have proved it by giving you a loving, faithful husband? That’s when I realized how illogical it was – no matter what happened, she would say it was proof of God’s goodness. If something good happen, it proved God was good, and if something bad happened, it was proof God was good – because it could have been even worse. If she had turned out to be HIV+ from her husband’s behavior, but the kids were negative, it would prove God was good. If she and the kids were HIV+ and one of them died, it would prove God was good for still leaving her the other one. If SHE got sick and died, God would be good for letting her have a few more years with her children first. Etc.

  • Natalie

    And then if she dies, leaving the children orphans? I’m sure you will say it was “God’s Will.”

    Under what circumstances would you say that QF would be wrong? Why is it important to you that they continue to try to have more kids? Why is it important to you that Vyckie continue to try or not?

    Difficulty: don’t quote the Bible. Why is it important to YOU.

  • mamawama

    Anyone can die at any time leaving their children orphans. No one should ever have a child because all children are at risk of becoming orphans with this philosophy. Michelle’s risk of death is not great. No doctor has advised her that she is at risk, so why is everyone so hyped up about it?

    I think it is up to each family has to make the decision on how many children to have. I know some quiverfull families who stopped due to health problems ( lupus for one) and they are not looked down upon.

    It is the Duggars right to have as many children as they desire. I do not think QF is wrong for anyone if that is the belief they hold. It is not important to me if they have more children, but I think it is wrong for others to promote “choice” but then state that any choice that is not the one they would make is wrong.

  • Julie paradox

    I thought about this for a while (I really had issues with the film Bruce Almighty) and worked out that a minute with everyone would take ten thousand years.

    (This is my first comment, but I’ve been reading for months and I love you all)

  • mamawama

    The Bible says that God is good all the time. You can’t fault someone for their beliefs. Also, I think it is about seeing the glass as half full. Yes, the cheating husband part stinks, but it is good to look and focus on the good things. That is just healthy for your mental status.

    Bad things happen to good people. All people sin. God could not have sent her a perfect partner, they don’t exist.

  • http://tapati.livejournal.com/ Tapati

    A less charged version of this kind of thinking–seeing confirmation in random events–takes place when those who’ve removed lava rocks from Hawaii return home and then suffer the misfortunes of life that we all get our share of. Soon they are convinced of the supposed curse for anyone who steals the rocks. Many have sent the rocks or sand particles back to Hawaii!

  • http://tapati.livejournal.com/ Tapati

    I do believe in a Deity, and I agree that we are expected to learn and grow and think for ourselves–just as we expect of our own children. :)

  • Eliza

    After having studied all this stuff for so long, it all comes down to one thing:

    The deep desire for the Formula For a Perfect Life. ATI panders to this, and of course we all want that formula, and be Safe Forever. Unfortunately, this is an untenable goal that will make life, which is already difficult enough, actually even more difficult.

  • Karen

    God didn’t choose to make Josie premature. Michelle’s aging body did. And her chances of having another premie or a baby with genetic issues increases by the year.

  • Barbara

    From what I understand about the Quiverfull movement, it’s a harsher regime than Catholicism. Couples aren’t allowed to practice the rhythm method. Married couples should not refrain from intercourse. Prayerful abstinence, therefore, is forbidden. Please correct me, anyone, if I’ve got this wrong. If I had 20 kids in 20 years, I sure wouldn’t have to pray to remain celibate for awhile, that’s for sure!

  • Barbara

    I’m not for interfering in anyone’s family planning activities. However, I don’t think that prodigious child-bearing should be glorified on TV, just like I don’t think that sexual promiscuity should be glorified on TV. In addition, I think that the Duggars are making money off of glorifying their lifestyle. That’s probably how the Duggars are able to afford having a 20th child during the worst economic situation since the 1930s. I wonder how many Quiverfull families are rethinking their hardcore child-bearing activities during these hard times?

    I also wonder if some Quiverfull families think that the Duggars have sold out. I’ve got to respect folks who can keep the idiot box away from their kids. So the Duggar kids are ALLOWED to be ON a TV show, along with secular and decadant TV shows, but these children aren’t allowed to watch the tube? Plus allowing your kids to be on TV and in People Magazine just attracts all kinds of freaks and creeps. I guess that when one or more of the kids rebel and joins a Satanic metal band, or gets a job with a Democratic member of Congress, that’s when the show will end!

  • mamawama

    I disagree. I think it all comes down to trying to please God and follow the Bible to the best of ones ability.

  • mamawama

    You are comparing a family with lots of children to sexual promiscuity? One is a sin and one is not. Children are a wonderful blessing. It is sad that our society has come to see children as wrong.

    The Duggars want to show the world that having children is a blessing. They want to encourage others. I do not agree that it is about the money, but it probably is a nice perk.

  • Jenny Islander

    I think it all comes down to trying to please a man who says he speaks for God and follow his peculiar interpretation of the Bible to the best of ones ability.

    The above is how this sentence comes across to me..

    I think the healthiest thing my church has taught me is that debating is part of faith. Not arguing until somebody steps in and proclaims the conclusion–measured discussion, with pauses for thought, until everybody in the room reaches their own conclusion, whether or not they choose to share it.

  • beccah

    conception isn’t determined by god, it’s determined by science and random chance — a perfect storm, not somebody who goes around deciding if each individual couple will get pregnant that night.

  • mamawama

    So many things have to “go right” for conception to occur. From the cell membrane of the egg, to the motility of the sperm, the depth of the uterine lining, and then even if the egg does get fertilized, so many things have to go just right in cell division and specialization for a perfect person to be born. It is a miracle every time. I do not just believe that it just randomly happens.

  • mamawama

    We can all read the Bible and decide for ourselves. We do not have to listen to anyone’s interpretation of it. It is written for the lay person to be able to understand.
    If someone married a person who is overbearing and controlling that is a problem, but it is not exclusive to people who are Quiverfull. Anyone can marry a brute. All of the Quiverfull husbands who I know personally are sweet gentle and understanding.

  • bettone

    They are in front of everyone else or if you happen to go along with their rules. What I have seen with ATI and Vision Forum is that everyone looks good on the outside, but the inside is not different. Doug Phillips is one of the most arrogant men I have ever seen. They act so holy and righteous. They would never stoop to associate with the “wicked’. But isn’t that what Jesus did? He was totally into sinners. He wanted to rescue them not burden them with rules and regulations.
    As a homeschool mom I have been dismissed by men in that circle so many times. I am highly educated and also work where I interact with men all the time, so I was not used to being ignored. I begin to investigate and after many years I know why. These men are all ATI /Vision Forum jerks. Some of them may be nice, but I have met many that are very arrogant, not really someone to approach about the love of my Savior.

  • Aer

    Becoming pregnant is not a miracle – 6 billion ppl on the planet now, billions before us, billions more after us attest that getting pregnant is actually quite common. Miracles are supposed to be things that just don’t happen – without divine assistance. God is giving babies to atheists? God is giving babies to primitive indigenous tribes of ppl who have never heard of him? Rather, god has no part of who gets pregnant and who doesn’t. God – as usual – was the default explanation handed out by the church back when no one really knew how pregnancy worked. A position of understandable ignorance (there are many things we still don’t understand about our own bodies) is not alleviated by taking a position of preferred ignorance (we don’t know how it works…so the answer must be god).

  • beccah

    It’s a rule of numbers — if you try enough times, it will just happen randomly. Aer is right — it is not a miracle. It happens all the time. What about all the animals that get pregnant every day? Is that a miracle too? No, it’s the simple biology that impacts them, just like it impacts us — for human beings are animals, subject to the same natural laws as other mammals. It’s not a miracle any more than the sun setting and rising is a miracle, it just is — it’s a law of numbers — if you try anything enough times, it will eventually happen. Particle theory. You don’t have to believe it just randomly happens, but it’s the truth. You don’t have to believe that grass is green, but it is. There is science behind it — there is an explaination — and it’s okay to say “I don’t know” or “I don’t understand”, but the answers are out there if you’re willing to look for them.

  • beccah

    I love this comparison — people are looking for the Formula for a Perfect Life. It’s so true — it’s like people who are looking for the Magic Weight Loss solution. We all live, we all die, and the best we can do in between is to try and be good people first to ourselves and to the others we love — not nessecarily (ever?) somebody’s twisted idea of perfect or submissive.

  • Natalie

    Yes, silly me to forget the “hit by a bus” scenario. Except that if she’d deliberately stepped in front of the bus – what would that be? God’s will again?

    Now you’re saying that it’s up to each family? Not God? Which is it?

    As for poor stewardship, I think it is demonstrated in having a lot of kids homebound

    1) Very young children need close parenting and holding from infancy to toddlerhood. Making teen mothers out of the sisters (if there are any) does not accomplish this in an optimal way.

    2) Teen motherhood, sometimes pre-teen motherhood. Even if they’re older sisters, they’re effectively that baby’s mother. Who’s leading whom now?

    3) Denying boys’ nurturing instincts, by not having them tend to small children. This may be where the Duggars are actually somewhat progressive if they’re having their sons take care of small children. If so, I think that’s great. The last thing we need are more “macho” men denying children their nurturing presence and having atrophied emotions.

    There is also poor stewardship by keeping the children indoctrinated in a separatist philosophy. Whatever you think of The World, it’s The World that’s holding you up, however self-contained you think you might be. It’s holding up the children, no matter how isolated they are kept. Raising them to fear everyone and everything is what leads to violent extremism.
    http://www.usaid.gov/locations/sub-saharan_africa/publications/docs/guide_to_drivers_of_ve.pdf

    I’ll agree that people have the right to determine how many children they will have. They can also expect, if they’re going to broadcast their sexual activities to the world, to have people comment on it.

    The agenda that’s not talked about is one of the reasons the QF movement exists – outbreed the Other. Again, setting up the children for a fight that really only exists in the parents’ and cult, er, religious leaders’ heads.

    If the Duggars truly believed in choice, why was Mr. Duggar involved in legislating away my reproductive rights? If the QF or religious life is so much better than the alternatives, then the resulting happy families would be obvious and there would be no need for coercive legislation or religious teachings.

  • Natalie

    Oh dear. See, this is what did me so much damage as a child. “Only think of the good things”. Don’t see the reality in front of you. Don’t think about bad things. You have no right to be unhappy.

    I wasn’t raised in a QF family. This is something that you and my atheist parents had in common.

    All it does is set you up for failure. If you refuse to deal with reality, it will certainly deal with you.

  • Deborah

    The very first comment in this section (Tapati’s) sort of paralleled my thoughts. And I say “sort of” because I have long found it SUPREMELY ARROGANT to believe that God takes such an intensely person interest in the most miniscule of events in people’s lives…but, of course, He’s got the time to do this because He only takes such interest in those who believe that He does. And, to Mamawama: What, then, of those who honestly believe that “pleasing God” and “following the Bible” includes hatred / persecution of anyone who doesn’t share their beliefs? If everyone is entitled to their choice what, then, do we make of the concerted campaigns mounted against, say…homosexuals? I think it’s wise to remember that anyone can twist ANYTHING to suit their message; if you don’t think that this is true, look no further than Charles Manson, David Koresh…the list goes on.

  • mamawama

    I’m not saying to not deal with the reality, but I am saying that some people like to lay in the muck for a very long time without pulling themselves out. Some people like to play victim. People who can overcome that, and find the good, and focus on that, do better in the long term.

  • mamawama

    Michelle is not deliberately stepping in front of a bus. No one has told her that her health is in danger, except for people on the internet. Shouldn’t that be between her and JimBob, their doctor and God?
    I believe it is up to each family and God and for them to prayerfully consider how many children to have. Not all people have the same convictions.
    As for your points:
    1. Yes I agree small children should be held and cuddled. I have seen Michelle hold and cuddle her children all the time. I have seen sisters love them too. It is not wrong for everyone in the family to love on the little ones. Do you think there should be a rule that older sisters can’t love on the little ones?
    2. It is a subjective statement to say that the older sisters parent the younger ones. You cannot know that because neither you or I live in that house. I do know that there are only 4 children under age 5 including Josie. Michelle does not seem neglectful to me.
    3.I do not agree that the children are indoctrinated with fear. Fear of what? The Duggars have gone to a public school to read to the children, on several mission trips, and on numerous field trips. Are you saying the children are trapped at home? All people teach their children about their beliefs. Muslims, atheists, etc will all teach what they believe but it seems that all choices are ok except Christianity?
    I am not familiar with the reproductive rights you are talking about. I’m guessing abortion rights? If that is so, many people are against abortions and many candidates vote against it. If you believe life begins at conception then you have to vote that way.
    Interesting discussion. Thanks for the insightful thoughts.

  • mamawama

    Aer says “Miracles are supposed to be things that don’t just happen – without divine assistance.” And that is my point. Divine intervention is needed for each child that exists. The world is much too complex to think that it all just happened. It would be like a tornado going through a junk yard and all the junk assembling into a skyscraper complete with elevators. The chances of it just happening without divine intervention are about 0.

  • mamawama

    I am sorry that you have met some people who are jerks, but to say everyone in ATI or who buys a vision forum product are all jerks is painting with a pretty wide brush.

  • beccah

    Actually, that’s the point of particle theory — there is a one in a billion chance ANYTHING can happen. That’s how the earth was created — the perfect storm of gases and electricity. That’s how life was created — that one in a billion billion chance. And enough people have sex every day and the odds are good enough that they can get pregnant. You can improve the conditions by doing it at the right time of month, etc, but it is a law of numbers and science in the end. You can argue with the science all you want, it’s still like saying grass isn’t green because no matter how much you argue you just can’t fight the facts.

  • mamawama

    To those who honestly believe that ‘pleasing God” and “following the Bible” includes hatred/ persecution of anyone who doesn’t share their beliefs, I would say they are not living a true Christian life. God calls Christians to LOVE. We are not to condemn anyone. The campaigns are not against homosexuals themselves, but against the behavior. My best friend was a lesbian for 7 years. I love her! She is a wonderful person. I did not agree with her behavior and I told her why. I also attended all her sons birthday parties with my children in tow. I did not reject her. Many of her unbelieving friends rejected her, but when she decided to come away from that lifestyle, I was one of the only friends she had left. Christians are not called to hate anyone. If they are doing that then they need to go read their Bible
    I agree that Manson and Koresh twisted the Bible. But anyone can read and decide for themselves if what the person is saying is true and lines up with Biblical teaching, or if it is false. C.S.Lewis said something like this ( paraphrased) Christianity is like a big hallway with lots of doors. As soon as you believe that Jesus died for your sins, you are in that hallway. Now, you can choose what door to enter. Some enter the Presbyterian door because they like that teaching, some enter the charismatic door because they like the energetic message, some enter the methodist door because they like a more formal approach. There is a door for each type of person because God knew that with our different personalities we would need different types of churches in order to connect with Him. The doors of manson and koresh were never even in the hallway because they weren’t real christians.

  • maicde

    Mamawama, you said, “The campaigns are not against homosexuals themselves, but against the behavior.” NO, the campaigns ARE against homosexuals themselves, because the campaigns are stating that people CHOOSE to be gay and CHOOSE to live a “sinful lifestyle” which is completely false. Amazing how you feel that you do NOT choose to have 13 children, God does, yet you’re the one having the sex, but homosexuals CHOOSE to be gay, God does not choose that for the homosexuals. How is that? How is that that you can be or do anything and yet God “chooses” it (like you are some sort of puppet on a string), yet gay people control all the cards in their own life? How’s come you don’t control your own cards when it comes to your own life?

    I am not gay, but one of our children is gay (son). I wonder what will happen to all of my large family QF friends I used to post with when they find out their son or daughter is gay? I wonder if they will continue posting the same garbage that they are posting or if they will change their belief system to include loving and accepting their gay child AND their “behavior”?

    While we’re talking about other people’s (sexual) “behaviors”, why don’t YOU keep your sexual attraction bottled up and never have sex? How do we know what kind of sex people are having anyways? Do you go to everyone’s home in America to observe their behavior in the bedroom and then tell them whether it’s deviant or not?

    As to QF, you say that God creates the pregnancies? Then YOU stop having sex and we’ll see how many pregnanices come forth.

    Yeah, I know I don’t sound nice. That’s because I’ve posted with women who post like you and on the surface they appear to be benign, but deep underneath, there is a form of hatred and bigotry that humanity should not be subjected to.

    BTW, I’ve never told anyone on the boards I used to post with that my son is gay because I just found out last Fall, but I’ve read enough of their hate propoganda to know their exact feelings towards people who are gay (male and female). Since homosexuality is roughly about 10% of the human population, it stands to reason that women I used to post will HAVE children who are gay whether they admit it or not. I wonder if that’s the reason some have stopped posting. Or maybe they got sick of QF and “walked away from God” as Vyckie Garrison supposedly has. For me, personally, I’ve walked away from judgmental a-holes, not God.

    By the way, you said, “the campaigns directed towards homosexuals” at the beginning of your post. So basically, there ARE campaigns/organized efforts out there to discriminate against homosexuality. Thanks for admitting that. I thought so.

    QF can take itself and shove it because QF is not from God, it is from the minds of some deluded men who look at women as chattel and their children as some sort of “arrow” (for war) against their perceived enemy who is basically anyone/anything who is not like them or think like them. Their goal is to outbreed the enemy and we all know it. QF does not care about women or children. Anyone who can watch their wife bleeding to death or suffering yet through another childbirth that almost kills her and yet wants another and yet another “blessing” is messed up. Case closed.

  • mamawama

    Yes, I do believe it is a choice. But that doesn’t make me hate homosexuals. I actually feel really sorry for them because it is tough. My friend knew many other homosexuals who were “in the family” and she said that many of them had been abused when they were younger. That is just tragic to me. I do believe that God can free them from that behavior.
    I don’t make the rules. I just try to follow the Bible, I didn’t write it ;) God speaks against homosexuality, and to line my thinking up with God, I agree that it is wrong. I do not personally know any Christians who hate them though.
    I am sorry if you have felt persecuted. The church we go to would welcome you and your son, even if he never changed. We have alcholics, homeless, drug users, and prostitutes. Everyone is a sinner. I am no different. People just want to be loved.
    I could choose to use birth control. It is my choice to not use birth control, but I am not arrogant enough to think that I can make life. What about the millions of infertile couples who have issues that cannot be explained? The Bible says that God makes the babies over and over. He says they are wonderful and they are a reward. I happen to think they are pretty fun myself. It is not like it is a weight on my shoulders to have babies. I like leaving it up to God because I love the big family life. Also, it takes two to tango, so if a woman is claiming that she hated being pregnant and she hated having children, and she was forced into something……she had choices. The first choice would be choosing who to marry, the second choice would be abstaining, and the third choice would be to leave.

  • cereselle

    Yes, anyone can marry a brute. But Quiverfull women who marry Quiverfull brutes have little to no help available to them. Taught that divorce is a sin, they stay with their brutal husbands and pray for death. Those who go to their church authorities are told to go back home and be more submissive. Those who finally choose to leave are excoriated and shunned by their Quiverfull communities, and are left with no community at all.

    At least women of “the world” have people who care more about them than about whether they’ve met some arbitrary standard of holiness.

  • Jenny Islander

    God may be telling the Duggars, over and over, that they need to pay more attention to the kids they do have and the Duggars may not be listening.

    More than one “Biblical” parenting expert explicitly tells parents not to listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, or if you choose to call it that, their intuition. They define the sudden feeling “No, wait, stop, this is wrong” as weak, as giving in to the flesh, etc., and pepper their “child training” manuals with dire warnings about what will happen if parents don’t follow the book exactly. They have a system. Within the system is safety and outside it is chaos. If reality disagrees with the system, reality will have to go.

    I haven’t read much ATI/Quiverfull literature. Is this type of warning found in their publications?

    There is also the chasm people fall into when they first discard nearly two thousand years of Biblical scholarship, theology, and debate, insisting that (their favorite translation of) the Bible is crystal clear and needs no unpacking or consideration of context, and then peg their whole lives on what “the Bible says.” Most of the time, this turns out to be what the loudest preacher in their lives says the Bible says, which must not be questioned because it’s so obvious.

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  • maicde

    Operate under whatever assumptions you want to operate under, but this is what I know and what science know:

    (1) People are born with their sexual orientation in place.

    (2) Seriously, I do not consider my son as part of the group that should be mixed in with alcoholics, homeless, drug users, and prostitutes. It’s interesting that you would fit him in amongst this group. My son graduated with Honors from high school and college, serves our country in the military, and has a professional job. He is neither an alcoholic, a homeless person, a drug user or a prostitute, nor has he been abused in any way.

    (3) Yeah, it does take two to tango and considering that I’ve read your posts on Duggars without Pity, I know who I’m dealing with – an amalgam of all the various large family women I used to post with. I don’t need to tango with you anymore because it’s another name, another face, with the same old message on a loop, kind of Danielle Rousseau’s message on the show “Lost”.

  • Anonymous

    Vyckie,

    I appreciate your willingness to listen to God’s call for you! You clearly care about His will in your life and wish to abide by it. However, I really do not think God hates anything that is His own Word. Of course you probably know the verse well (Psalms 127:3-5) “Sons are a heritage from the Lord, children a reward from him. Like arrows in the hands of a warrior are sons born in one’s youth. Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them.” Therefore, I really do not think that God would hate this belief – that His followers should leave how many children they will have up to Him – because it says to do this in the Bible. Everyone has to use their own discretion when listening to God’s call. I do not know what God’s sign would be for someone to stop doing something. For example, if a person had been in ten automobile accidents in one year, a person might think that this was God telling them to stop driving cars. However, one should not decide this or judge for themselves. Only God can judge and it is up to an individual to make the discernment based on the Holy Spirits nudging, not others.

    I truly hope that you continue to seek Him in all that you do!

  • Donna

    Mamawama, are you deliberately being obtuse? “No one has told her that her health is in danger other than people on the internet”? How can you in good conscience say that? The woman was life-flighted to a medical center because of severe medical problems and the baby had to be delivered in an Emergency C-Section at 25 weeks of gestation. I don’t know how much clearer the situation needs to be before it finally clicks in the Duggars’ minds that, “enough is enough” and if you try this again, things might not be good. Seriously, the Duggars don’t “get that” yet? Is there something wrong with their thought processes?

    And what’s this business about everything being between Jim Bob, Michelle, and the doctor? Any doctor in his/her right mind will say, don’t do this again. And what about us, schmucks, the taxpayers who are straddled with their medical bills? The taxpayers had/have to pay their micropreemie’s medical bills and will continue to pay for her treatments that she will undoubtedly need. Why does society have to pay for their reckless actions?

    “Subjective opinion” that the older daughters are taking care of the entire household, and parenting the younger children? Ha ha ha!!! Unbelievable case of the head being buried in the sand! “We cannot know that because we don’t live in the house?” Hello, McFly, they are on TV, they have written books about the buddy system, they talk about the buddy system, they show the buddy system. That is fact, not fan fiction.

    Public schools teach that ALL choices in school, except Christianity. It’s interesting how “all” choices encompasses either (a) Islam or (b) Atheism. Hmm. First off, our large family has gone through both Catholic school and public school and at no time, either private or public, has Islam or Atheism been taught. Have you ever had your kids in any kind of school at all so that you would know from first-hand experience, or is this more of the “us” vs. the “world” paradigm?

    “All reproductive choices focus on abortion.” No, no really, but abortion is an alternative even for those who are “pro-life” if the mother’s health is in danger. No, reproductive choices focus on PREVENTING pregnancy. Of course, to QF, birth control IS abortion, so I guess reproductive choices DO focus on abortion if you think about it that way.

    Mamawama, I have to say that my mind is blown away by your thinking, absolutely blown away. I truly do not know what to say except good luck with all of that. There will come a time, mark my words, there WILL come a time when every woman’s eyes will be opened to what was going on in front of her the entire time. I don’t know when it will be for you, but it is guaranteed that it will happen. I just hope that you don’t suffer what Michelle Duggar is going through right now. I don’t know your age, but QF does NOT agree with an aging women’s body, physical and mental health. Look at Jim Bob’s and Michelle’s picture on “People” magazine. They are a middle-aged couple who refuses to stop their pregnancy obsession. Full steam ahead-d*mn the torpedos!! They do not think about their older children who are shouldering the burden of their obsession. The older blessings are not allowed to show any displeasure because they are not displeasing their parents, they are “displeasing God.” Isn’t it nice to be able to control your children using God as the weapon? Same goes for QF women. They are having arrow for God; it’s all for God. Sure, it is….

  • Natalie

    We don’t know if she is or isn’t stepping in front of a bus – you take your life in your hands every time you get pregnant. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should. And just because they say they’re ready, it doesn’t mean they are. Sometimes, when you’re driving, you should pay attention to the folks and signs saying: “hey, there’s a bridge out ahead”.

    1. All we know is what we see on TV. I’ve got nothing against the older sisters and *brothers* pitching in. I’m saying that stopping breastfeeding at nine months cuts the infant’s time short in order to fit the parent’s perceived need to breed.

    2. It’s not subjective to say that the “buddy sisters” are parents, it’s the truth. There were only four kids in my family, but I was parenting them at 10 because of the demands of the family business. We were frequently left at home by the time I was 12. Sometimes I had charge of neighbor children as well. I was the one who had to hold my 5 year old brother and explain death to him.

    It’s at least fortunate that the youngest child is “buddied” with the oldest, but if she’s been semi-parenting since her teen years, when has she had time to explore herself or her needs?

    Also, if the children are switching buddies every 18 months, bondings are broken – and that’s the really critical thing for young kids.

    3. I thought the kids were homeschooled? If not, that’s at least one point in their favor. I think the movement as a whole, however, encourages separatism to an extreme degree. If you’re home schooling, home churching, home everything, you’re setting up the kids for fear. Even if they’re taking all those educational trips, they’re doing them together. Great for togetherness, not so great for individual development.

    People absolutely teach children their beliefs, but teaching extreme fear of the Other and the Outside will do more harm than good when the children inevitably go Outside. I was raised in an Atheist family, not quite as isolated as some, but still isolated. This still has effects today. I don’t recall condemning Christians in particular, but extremism in all forms.

    Reproductive rights: I recall reading or seeing on TV that Jim Bob, while a legislator, had worked to restrict the availability of birth control for other women. He can do what he likes with his wife. He needs to stay out of other peoples’ business.

    Thank you, as well, for the answers. This has been interesting.

  • Natalie

    Some people are also depressed and don’t know it. Saying “just look at the bright side” without taking this into consideration is fundamentally unhealthy for your mental state.

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/angieantitheist Angie the Anti-Theist

    I grew up in faith healing and home birth, with a slight overlap into QF but nothing like what you write about. Still, I can completely identify with thinking EVERYTHING is a sign from God that I’m already doing exactly the right thing. I spent three years walking with a dislocated hip – as a high school student – convinced that Satan was attacking me for my faith. Now I’ an atheist and I can walk. Funny what doctors can do!

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/angieantitheist Angie the Anti-Theist

    Anyone CAN die at any time, but that’s not nearly the same as putting your life in dangerous situations! You wear a seatbelt, yes? Yet you put your health and life at risk (you, as a mother of 13 are far more likely to die before old age and in terrible agony than I, as a mother of 1. Pregnancy and birth are rough on women’s bodies, as I’m sure you realize having gone through it so many times!)

    One of the most important jobs I have as a mother is ensuring MY survival, so that I can protect and nurture my son. I avoid life-threatening situations (including life-threatening pregnancy) SO THAT I can be a good mother.

    Being “into” your family by forcing them into manual labor, child care and denying them an education doesn’t really impress me, ya know?

  • arietty

    Tapati what you say is true–this kind of thinking in christianity is straight up superstition. Every single day in our lives good stuff and bad stuff occurs, looking to it to prove our original bias must be supernaturally true is no different than your lava story.

  • http://www.undermuchgrace.com cindy K

    Some may be jerks, but I think it’s more appropriate to say that they are deceived. Some might be simpletons, and some might be fools. But many very intelligent people get sucked in with promises of success and safety for their kids, but they are not told of the costs. I wish I had known up front when I got involved in the whole Gothard thing that I would be cursed for leaving my church without the elders’ permission! I was deceived, not a jerk.

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  • Helen

    bobbie,
    since your god told you ” that we are to be good stewards – of the Earth ” then you should listen to him and start with your self, the earth’s populatinon will be minus bobbie the next day, just make sure you do it in a freindly manner to the earth and make sure have your remains be used too, like giving them to the dogs for a snack, now that would be good recycling and you would be the greatest ” stewards – of the Eart ”
    if you disagree then shut your big mouth up about any quiverfull family.

  • Kayiko

    I’m sorry but I feel the need to respond to something you said here.

    “Yes, I do believe it is a choice. But that doesn’t make me hate homosexuals. I actually feel really sorry for them because it is tough. My friend knew many other homosexuals who were “in the family” and she said that many of them had been abused when they were younger. That is just tragic to me. I do believe that God can free them from that behavior.”

    Did you ever stop to think that they are not the ones who need to be free? Why point the finger at the gay person? Why not look at the people who are doing the abusing? Clearly the real reason why a gay person has a hard life is due to THE abusive people. If they would stop being abusive, then the gay person could have a happy life! Wow! Remarkable right? You would rather sit there and past judgment against a gay person, then dare to pass ANY on the people who are attacking, and making lives for homosexuals so hard? If you believe that gay people choose to be gay, then honestly, you can be born gay but you choose to be straight. Like being born chinese, but you choose to be irish instead. It just doesn’t work that way. I have a branch of my family who are Evangelicals. One of my uncles brother’s is gay. The family has shunned him completely. To the point of disowning him for it. In my eyes, God find’s it a sin to be that hateful towards your own family like that.

    You do understand that the Bible is nothing more then -man’s- interpretation of Gods words, right? That IS a fact. God did not sit down at a desk with a pen and write it all out himself. He had to go through man to do it. Because of that, I myself, refuse to believe in it as an absolute way to live and/or believe. You can never ever know if all the people who wrote the Bible, and other books, got it 100% correct. What if someone like Manson said he was God’s chosen person to write out the Bible? Look at how badly he and others, have twisted the word of God. It is very very easy to miss use, and miss understand anything. Even God’s personal messages to us. I think its extremely dangerous to follow in just one thing soo completely and not understand that there are other ways to live too.

    I also find it grossly irresponsible for people to assume that GOD will be the one who chooses things for you in your life. If God wanted us ALL to follow in his footsteps exactly and for him to always call the shots, then he would not have given everyone ‘Free Will’. He gave you that so YOU can make the choices in your life. Making a kid is nothing more then science. If it was, then 14 year olds who get raped would never end up pregnant. Yet they do. Because in the act, a sperm just so happened to meet an egg and joined together to make another person. God has no part in any of it. Do you know how many people die every year because they think God will do everything for them and they refuse to make their own choices? If anything, I feel that God is disappointed in those types of people. He is disappointing when people just act irresponsible and expect HIM to make their choices for them. Ignoring science completely and thinking God chooses when to give you a kid, is pretty dumb. That is so far from taking any responsibility for one’s choices. The only thing a person choose in that situation is not understanding that if you have sex, you will make a kid. (unless for medical reasons preventing it) If it was all in God’s hands.. No creature would need to ever have sex to have a kid. He would just “poof” give us one.

    I admire that you feel so strongly in the way you do about God. If it works for you, then I am of course happy for you. The only thing I worry about with people like you is that they tend to lack being open minded. I have a couple people in my life who all believe in God. However, not one of them thinks exactly the same on the subject. They all have different meanings about God. Which just shows me that even though all might read from the same book, doesn’t mean it’s going to be understood the same.

  • Kayiko

    I could not agree more with this post. I have a member of my family who some what follows in that way of thinking. That God is in control at all times. She leaves it up to God to give her a child. So far, she has had 3. What worries me is that each one she had came closer and closer to killing her. I fear that anymore, will kill her. Yet she continues to have sex with her husband and ignores the facts of science that doing so will cause you to get pregnant. On top of that, she is going to home school her kids. Which is a task that requires SO much from her. It’s her job now to not only be their mother.. but their teacher. And it’s her responsibility to be there for her kids in many more ways then one. Something she painfully ignores completely when she leaves it up to God for her to have anymore kids. She knows that her body can barely handle being pregnant. Know’s that having more kids will no doubt be a huge risk to her life. If she is dead.. Her kids lose their mother. They lose their teacher. This is something I feel the Duggars completely ignored. They take no responsibility for the future. If Michelle gets pregnant again, and it kills her, as well as the baby.. It will be her own fault. It’s foolish and down right childish to demand such important life choices onto someone else and don’t dare bother to understand that the selfish act has repercussions. Will God finally have to take her life for her to realize that each child she had was due to her choice and her choice alone? (with Jim Bob too of course).

    In my eyes..making a child is a miracle! It’s a responsibility that God gave to us. It’s up to us to choose when to use this ability. God gave all living things the power within themselves to create a new life. It’s up to US to take responsibility with such a gift. It’s not up to him. It’s also a gift that not everyone can do. Maybe adoption is a better path for those people, instead of pushing your body again and again spitting out kids until death. It shouldn’t have to come to that. Sadly.. a lot of people die every year, needlessly, because they leave it up to God to fix them, rather then doing it themselves.

    If Jesus really died for our sins, and so we all have the ability to live our own lives, It’s pretty upsetting that people just choose to leave their lives up to God. What exactly did Jesus die for? Just so his Dad can control your life? No.. it’s so you can be alive and be in control of your own life. Isn’t that the point of it all? He died so that we could live freely? I just shake my head at the amount of contradiction that swims around in this religion. If my cousins ends up dead because she refused to take responsibility for her life and the life of her kids.. I don’t think I could ever forgive her for being that irresponsible and that stupid. It’s like having un-protective sex with someone you know has AIDS and then crying your eyes out because you contracted AIDS too. And you thought God would prevent you from getting it. He doesn’t have that power. That choice was up to you, the human, to make. It’s not up to him. That’s the responsibility he gave us all when we allowed for everyone to have free will.

  • Rosa

    What kind of sense does that make? There’s no difference between having a reasonable number of children, and suicide?

    Where does this anger come from?

  • http://spritzophrenia.wordpress.com Jonathan Elliot

    Thankyou for your website, which I’ve just come across (via your Twitter). The QF teaching always made me feel uncomfortable, tho i had pretty much left Christianity by the time I became aware of it.

    You’re doing a good thing in publicising that there might be another way, and that contraception and sensible family planning might actually be God’s will!

    Well done

    Jonathan from Spritzophrenia

  • mamawama

    Somewhere across the Sea……I love LOST. ;)

  • gina

    I agree with Natalie here. This kind of talk – that “some people _like_ to lay in the muck… some people _like_ to play victim” this is one of the reasons I can’t talk to my family. Any time I try to talk about how depressed I feel, this is the crap they throw back at me. It’s not that easy to “pull yourself” out and sometimes, when the people who should be loving and supporting you most think you’re just “playing the victim”, it does more harm to the depressed person than good.

  • Synesthesia

    At the risk of sounding harsh, these folks are kind of bugging me. If I were less shy and meek I’d want to shout at them and point out that they have a MICRO PREMATURE CHILD! She has special needs! Before they even THINK of concieving another child they must take care of her first!
    Also, the duggar’s respectableness makes me feel uneasy, but I’d be sad if anything happened to Michelle Duggar or a future child of hers if she got pregnant again so maybe they should sort of slow their roll a bit? Could they put a bit of thought and planning if they must have baby 20?

  • Helen

    to all who disagree with the BEAUTIFUL DUGGER FAMILY LIFE STYLE, put your stinking shoe in your big mouth, shut up, and go mind your own buss.

  • Helen

    soooooooooooo miss shy!!!!!!!!! I wonder what kind of perrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrfect family do you have?????????????? by the way I really do not care and whatever it is
    IT IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND YOU DO NOT COME ANY WHERE CLOSE TO THESE DEAR PEOPLE………… BECAUSE THEY DID NOT COME AND STICK THIER NOES IN your buss. , like you are doing here, so shut up and go clean your house!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Helen

    you are one freaky sick dude, you need to shut up, you have no buss. sticking your nose here.morrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrron

  • Helen

    your one sad being!!!!!!!!!!!
    GOD also said “Be fruitful and multiply”…. so who do you think should they obay???????YOU????? OR THE REST OF THE MORONS HERE ON THIS SICK SITE?????
    go read the rest of your bible.
    by the way the Duggar family is NOT YOUR BUSS.
    THEY DID NOT COME AND MIDDDLE WITH YOUR FAMILY LIFE STYLE!!!!!!!!!!

  • Helen

    YOU ARE DUMB ON PURPOSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    all you have to do is read the BIBLE for your ownself and learn the wonderful plan that ALMIGHTY GOD HAVE THE WOMEN.

    you said,

    “I can completely identify with thinking EVERYTHING is a sign from God”

    stupid!!!!!!!!!!! go get life…….

  • JGirl

    Bravo Kayiko!! I’ve been hoping someone would bring up FREE WILL. That in itself is a gift from God. I also believe that science is a gift from God too and it enables us to make sense of our world and discover things about ourselves. We are not in heaven, this is our Earthly life and again, another gift God gave us.

    There are also many questions that will probably go unanswered until we die…”why are some humans born homosexual”? is a good one(and yes, I believe they were born that way). Why does God allow suffering…especially innocent children. As difficult as it may seem sometimes to Christians, I believe we must show each other love, understanding and acceptance even in the most hard to understand instances and let God handle the rest unless someone is breaking an Earthly law.

    Regarding the Duggars. There are many things I DO admire about them. It’s not my place to judge them but in my opinion only, parents should be the predominant caregivers to their young children. I do not respect the way these parents initially chose to live a private life and shunned all media attention until they figured out that 3 bedroom home they lived in would not allow them to move forward with anymore pregnancies. So, that is around the time the first special came out. Viola…a new house. Plus, the whole thing is designed around the older girls taking on huge responsibilities.

    I think it is wonderful that this family pitches in and supports each other. I think their closeness is beneficial to some extent, but they are using these older girls as indentured servants.The entire system depends on those older girls cooking, cleaning, and taking care of the young children. They are still children themselves yet they literally get up each morning and act like young wives themselves. Having your own home and your own children is something to look forward to, not some full time job you must perform for your mother while you are still between the ages of 10 – ??? Will these girls be allowed to meet people outside of this circle? If they choose to marry someone who does not believe in this lifestyle will that person be accepted?

    Seriously, no one thinks this is just a bit too much controlling? I mean there are things to be learned from the Duggars and I concede that they get some things right (but not sure if I agree with the methods used). They seem to be a close and loving family. The children respect their parents, They are educating them and limiting (if not completely blocking) some of the complete trash that is floating around society today on TV, radio and internet.

    Frankly, I have to admit, most of what is going on in general society is disgusting today and if they did a shoe on how MOST American families interact with each other on a day to day basis, we’d have just as much criticism and distaste for them.I just believe more thought should have been given as to whole is doing a majority of the work around that house and who is really nurturing those children the most…the parents or the sisters.

    Bottom line: God gave us higher level brains than animals. He actually designed us to figure out a lot about our own bodies and nature. Therefore, I do NOT believe it is inconsistent that God would want us to put some thought into our own family planning.
    I could say more, but I think I’ve said enough.

  • JGirl

    Again, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here. I’m not sure God intended for us to just flail in the wind. I mean, you obviously use free will to take care of other human needs…you educate yourself, you get a job to pay for things you need, etc.

    We don’t just sit there and think that God will drop a food basket on the doorstep each day. Sorry, but I believe that is what our Earthly lives are about…being free to live our lives, yet giving God glory to the design, the creation of the human race and our love for each other in the first place, to revel in all the glorious things he has provided us with to have what we need. The gift of love for our families and each other. I do not think the Duggars are bad people and I’m sure they wonder why are they are so villified. I can clearly see that they love their children. I can see that they have taught their children to be good people. However, based on what I see on their television show, which they have agreed to air so that others may hear and see how they live their lives, I truly wonder if they haven’t taken things way to far based on a tenous basis at best.

    Just because these people have made this lifestyle work to some extent (with a HUGE supply of free labor provided by their daughter’s mostly) does not mean that this lifestyle is ordained by God is by any means his “plan” or “will”.

    I think we can all agree that conceiving a child is a wonderous experience. However, we as humans have some responsibility in the matter. If this is, according to them, the proper way to live in God’s light, would they advise a struggling, out of work couple to just keep having children? Clearly they believe this is the right way for them to live…does that mean that they’d advise the same for others..despite their abilities to support dozens of children? If they are so convinced of the “rightness” of this lifestyle, then surely they must think everyone should be doing this, right? No matter what? No matter what?

    Think about it, if God intended us to just sit back and accept a baby in the womb as solely a gift from him, then why do we as humans have to perform action (having sex) in order for the miracle to occur? Why don’t we just wake up one morning and say, “wow, God chose me to be pregnant this morning…”?

    Perhaps the Bible didn’t mean us to take the verse so literally. Maybe a quiverfull is simply however many children you can love and care for without having to employ your daughters as nannies or run your home some sort of institution.

  • Helen

    THERE IS NO ONE THAT IS BORN HOMO, BECOMING A HOMO IS A CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!!
    This is what GOD says in the book of Rom. chaptre 1about homos…..
    20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

    23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

    24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
    so stop fooling yourselves and others and GO WIPE THE FLOORS WITH YOUR OPINIONS, I would take GOD’S WORD any day over yours.

  • Helen

    you are one angry, mad, unhappy, miserable maicde!!!!! you need to go to a shrink get something or take a chil pill !!!!!!!!!!!

    sick minds……..

  • AssassinGrl

    God also ‘says’ we can sell our daughters as slaves. Which, I guess if you are a QF proponent, you do. But guess what? Not everyone believes in your God. And, I don’t know where YOU live, but in America, the 1st Amendment of the Constitution guarantees us the freedom to believe or NOT believe.
    No matter how much you quote your dusty, 2000 year old book, written by bronze age GOAT HERDERS, it doesn’t change scientific FACTS. Scientists have already proven that homosexuality is an inborn trait. It is NOT a choice. You can copy and paste the whole damn bible and it won’t change the facts. It will only demonstrate what a sad, petty little pathetic excuse for a human being you are.

  • Helen

    “If you believe that gay people choose to be gay, then honestly, you can be born gay but you choose to be straight. Like being born chinese, but you choose to be irish instead”
    What a STUPID THOUGHT!!!!!!!!!

    how about a man born white and says he is black…DOES THAT MAKE HIS SKIN BLACK?????????
    now can you see you are an ABSOLUTE moron beyond any reasonable doubt!!!!!
    now were you born that way???
    the BIBLE says” WILLFULLY IGNORANT” WHICH MEANS DUMB ON PURPOSE.

  • Helen

    you said,
    “Scientists have already proven that homosexuality is an inborn trait. It is NOT a choice.”
    that is a big fat lie, you just say that to lie to your self and others!!!!!!!!
    ha ha ha.. it does not matter you believe it or not, it will NOT change the reality of the” LAKE OF FIRE” being wide open to recieve your stinking body as soon as THE ALMIGHTY GOD decides your worthless days are over, and there you will burn for eternity.and no one will ever hear or what you say or think……..it will only be one more big mouth filled with fire SCREAMING,SCREAMING,SCREAMING,SCREAMING……
    I would believe the GOAT HERDERS writings any day(they wrote GOD’S words down for me to have today) over your fagget and lying scientist!
    To GOD be the glory for now and ever…….

  • AssassinGrl

    Helen,
    You have to be the stupidest, most hateful, TWAT I have ever come across. Way to represent Christians. Keep it up, you’ll de-convert more Christians than any atheists ever could.

  • AssassinGrl

    Your last name wouldn’t be PHELPS would it? You sound like that bunch of crazy losers from the Westboro Baptist Church. Get a life, loser.

  • AssassinGrl

    You do a lot of screaming and insulting here. Maybe you should just leave the site and get some psychological help. We can see by your spelling and grammar that you are uneducated – probably from the homeschooling – and since it is doubtful that your husband lets you out of the house for any real interaction with people, you may just need someone to talk to. Apparently this is not the right forum for you. You have the social skills of a retarded baboon, which a good therapist might be able to help you with. Good Luck.

  • Synesthesia

    Well, miss CAPITAL LETTERS I probably should clean my apartment. I’m not sure if the Duggars would approve of my lepidoptera tattoos and metal t shirts, but this is OK as difference is rather nice.

    But, seriously dude, havin ga child that’s a micro preemie is no joke. That child will need care and attention.

    And I will go to my birthday concert today! YAY!

  • Synesthesia

    Dear Helen. Please drink some chamomile tea and calm down.
    The latest science about sexuality will not hurt either.
    Ah, well. in a few hours I get to see DIR EN GREY!!! YAY!

  • Synesthesia
  • sandee

    gen 1:28 is not a command, it is a blessing…a GIFT of children, not a requirement that you have as many as your body can handle, then repeat yet again.

  • Alge

    If God is the one deciding when people die, why are so many “worthless” homosexuals still alive? If He truly hated them, don’t you think they would have been struck from existence already?

    Also, please keep in mind that you have never actually read the words of the goat herders. You have read a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation, one which has had its words changed over and over again to suit the needs of the powerful, up to and including removing entire books of the Bible. Next time you want to flout your belief in the Bible over science, you’d do better by putting your money on Dr Seuss.

  • Alge

    If God is the one deciding when people die, why are so many “worthless” homosexuals still alive? If He truly hated them, don’t you think they would have been struck from existence already?

    Also, please keep in mind that you have never actually read the words of the goat herders. You have read a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation, one which has had its words changed over and over again to suit the needs of the powerful, up to and including removing entire books of the Bible. Next time you want to flout your belief in the Bible over science, you’d do better by putting your money on Dr Seuss.

  • kwil

    Oh, good grief! The anger is spewing out of all you hateful people on here who think babies are just random chance and a curse on the planet, as you drive your suvs and take little thought to the earth, other than that good feeling you get when you dump your trash into the recycling bin.

    And NARCISSISTIC quiverfull parents? Holy moly!

    The reason the vast majority of you close your wombs is because you ARE obsessed with yourself and your own pleasure.

    Here’s a questions for you proud feminists: Are your bodies faulty? Why do you have to take such pains and use damaging hormonal means in order to NOT get pregnant? What’s wrong with simply being who you are? A woman and proud of it! You are the ones that are abnormal. Michelle is NORMAL! Maybe a little more fruitful than the average, but NORMAL! You are the anti-woman people who want her to be mutilated or drugged in order to stop reproducing.

    Good grief. All these hateful people defending her.

  • kwil

    Just stop this. You appear to be more in need of Christ than the athiests on here.
    YOU need to be converted.

    Just ignore her. She’s outside her mind.

  • Dawn

    The Duggars put their story out there and made it public. Therefore, we are allowed to comment on it.

  • Kira

    Spawning litters just because you can isn’t anything special. Any dog in heat can do it. I cannot understand why people idolize these irresponsible, narcissistic people.

  • Kira

    May I suggest some Haldol? It’s obvious your god isn’t doing much for your…condition.

  • http://www.twitter.com/indydina IndyDina

    Mamawama, what you’ve just described IS randomness. That’s why I, a nontheist, cherish and appreciate life all the more – it is a miracle every time something goes right.

  • http://www.twitter.com/indydina IndyDina

    My use of the word ‘miracle’ is amiss. I ought to say it is wondrous every time it goes right. I’m hoping the rational people here know what I meant. :)

  • Lee

    Where in the Bible does it tell you to call those who don’t agree with you “morons” and be generally hateful? I think I might have missed that particular verse.

  • Synesthesia

    It’s probably right next to Thou shalt get upon the internet and Flame them that do not agreethe with then until thine noob doth boweth to thine uber and epic flaming skills.

  • Synesthesia

    Thou shalt also have bad spelin and gramor.

  • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com WMDKitty

    kyuuuu~♥

  • Karen

    What if being who we are isn’t a mother of 20? You don’t know if gods plan for someone was to abstain from having as many children as biologically possible. It seems a little ridiculous to think that condoms and birthcontrol could stop a pregnancy god wanted.

    I could turn your words on you and make the same foolish assumption that perhaps you insist on having as many children as possible without means to care for them because you are obsessed with yourself and your own pleasure, but that would be repeating ignorance.

    Babies are biology. It’s how you raise/care for, your child that makes he/she so special. A woman can increase her chances of getting pregnant by engaging in intercourse at certain times of peak fertility. That’s biology as well. A woman’s chance of getting pregnant decreases with age. Again biology. And unfortunately the older a woman is the more likely something will happen to the mother’s health, or the baby. I can’t for the life of me figure out why people would deny the sense god gave them. Michelle is putting her life and the life of that possible next fetus on the line with every coming year. She’ll use enough sense to give birth in a hospital because she’s at risk, puts her life in the hands of medical science and then turns a blind eye to that same reason to get pregnant repeatedly in the face of that risk. That reeks of hypocrisy.

    Little thought to the earth? How many disposable diapers to the Duggars go though? How many QF vans use how much gas? How much cheap food produced by factory farms do they eat? This argument seems particularly ridiculous. Especially since you assume everyone here has an SUV or we all dump trash in recycling. Much bearing of false witness is going on with that statement.

  • ellid

    And you know what is in the Duggars’ hearts how? Michelle Duggar is in her mid-40s, well into the time when pregnancy is actively dangerous. She had pre-eclampsia and delivered a child that would have died had she been born as recently as ten years ago. That sounds like a very clear message from God that they have done their part to be fruitful and multiply. How do you know that they are not having more children out of vanity, and a wish to continue their television show for the money? How do you know that Michelle Duggar is not committing the sin of pride (in her ability to bear children long after even the most fertile of women usually cannot), or that Jim Bob is not puffed up by his ability to continue fathering children on a woman whose body is clearly nearing the end of its fertility?

  • ellid

    How do you know that Michelle Duggar’s doctor has told her she is no danger with future pregnancies? Do you know them? ARE you either Michelle or Jim Bob? She was well into the high-risk pregnancy category BEFORE her most recent pregnancy ended so badly. Given her age, the number of children she’d already borne, and the complications and premature birth of her last child, I highly doubt that any reputable doctor would have told her it was all right to go ahead and have more children.

  • ellid

    Sorry, but pregnancy is normally not considered a miracle. What ridiculous version of the Bible are you reading? Michelle Duggar is NOT Elizabeth, or Sarah, or any of the other women who begged for children. If anything, she’s Leah, birthing baby after baby, or one of the handmaidens who was, for all intents and purposes, raped by Jacob or Abraham or Isaac. Her pregnancies are, if anything, proof that human reproduction is common, not miraculous.

    Also, if you’re trying to show how Godly the Quiverfull lifestyle is by your defense of this family, stop. You haven’t changed any minds, and frankly are coming across as cultish and brainwashed, not as a responsible Christian.

  • ellid

    A LITTLE more fruitful? The Duggars have four times as many children as the average family in the 1950s, which had the highest fertility rate of the 20th century! Are you out of your mind?

    And no, I don’t hate Michelle Duggar. I pity her. Her entire sense of self is wrapped up in childbearing, to the point where she continues to have babies despite clear signals from God and her body that it’s time for her to stop. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she had a nervous breakdown once she either stops menstruating or has to have an emergency hysterectomy because her uterus ruptured under the strain of one two many babies. She has no life outside bearing children, and what she will do once she no longer can have them is sad to contemplate.

  • Aria

    If your god really gave people free will, then this means people can have sex and have babies if they want to. He’s just not interfering with the decision they made of their own free will. Or did your god lie and we actually don’t have free will?

  • Aria

    Supposedly even being a virgin didn’t protect Mary from pregnancy wen your god decided he wanted her to have a son. So isn’t it belittling to your god to think that a piece of latex could stop a pregnancy if he wants it?

  • Aria

    Actually the people most likely to lay in the muck are those waiting for a ghost to rescue them, waiting for “the lord to provide.” I guess “the lord helps those who helps themselves” means nothing.

  • Aria

    And in “condemning the behavior,” you are attempting to take away the free will your god supposedly have everyone. You know better than your god, I guess.

  • Aria

    So the animals in the natural world who exhibit gay behavior chose it, despite supposedly not having cognitive ability. Uh-huh, sure.

  • Aria

    When I was a kid, I was a strong Christian. My family and I didn’t take a severe deadly illness as a sign god wanted me to “go home to him” but rather as a test of our faith. I guess we thwarted his desire to take me by going to doctors and righting tooth and nail.

    I read a blog by a woman with a very sick child who is a full-time job and requires neglect of the other children, and when money’s tight and people send in donations, she praises god for providing, ignoring the fact that humans wrote the checks. Another blog I read is by a father whose daughter has cancer, and in his twisted way, the cancer is a blessing because he thinks god is using his daughter’s suffering to show them all he loves them because she hasn’t dies yet.

    I’m agnostic now, and it’s amazing how much better my life got when I walked away, stopped praying, and started doing for myself. Funny how my taxes fund many people who pray for god to provide and praise the welfare checks we taxpayers pay for as proof of god’s love (yeah, there are a lot of Christians who have large families but have no problem waking welfare, calling it a gift from god).

  • Aria

    Your god supposedly said this to another group of people in a time when humans did need to work on populating the earth so they didn’t die out. Times change.

  • Aria

    They chose to open their doors to the world, and with this comes the potential for criticism. They opened their business to the world. If they want our noses out of it, they can cancel the show.

  • Aria

    If they want everyone out of their business, then they can cancel the show.

  • allison

    actually there’s no evidence of other universes…yet. there are “structures” beyond our known universe that are “tugging” at the edge of our universe and causing a type of gravitational pull. but there’s no concrete evidence that these structures are other universes. at least not yet.

  • guest

    Whenever i see the Dugger’s 5 or more little boy’s, my heart feel’s squeeze’d..i just wanna run up and hug each one..these little boy’s need so much more than what they are getting. The question often asked is..are the older daughter’s raising these little boy’s. I have heard both side’s of the aurgument’s.in who is mothering these children. I suppose the answer lies in who do these little one’s call mother..who do they go to for comfort..who is correcting them and teaching them? Who get’s up with them in the wee hour’s of the night..who feed’s them? Who cares and comfort’s them when they are ill?
    The Duggar’s follow a man named Bill Gothard. The bible tell’s us’be conformed in the image of Christ not a mere man. I am alarmed over this man’s defination of grace which is’the desire to reproduce ourselves spiritually..Gothard does not beleive nor teach that God’s grace is unmerited favor in Christ Jesus ..we can not earn God’s grace! Gothard’s defination of faith is ‘
    visualizing what God intend’s to do with us. Biblical faith is simply beleiving and trusting what God say’s through His word. Visualization is an occultic activity. Those who follow Bill Gothard and incorporate his teaching’s into their lives are setting themselves up to living as ‘christian pharisee’s’. Every christian i know of who lives out Gothard’s teaching has a spiritual smugness and pride that is so unlovely. You can see it in their countenance and demeaner. These ppl. really do see themselves as superior and better than other’s regardless of how many times they claim otherwise. To follow Gothard means you are heavy into legalism and legalism lead’s to sin. The Duggars claim to be allowing God to decide how many kid;s to have yet i know i read Michelle would hand over her 6mo. baby to big sister so as to become pregnant versus the biblical way which is to nurse child into toddlerhood, relax. and just ‘let it happen’ .I don’t know why..but this bother’s me. So much of Gothard’s teaching is in error..he mixes a little truth into much error and is gravely misleading those who follow him.

  • Heather

    How exactly does statement this pertain to the issue the author is addressing?

  • Dana

    Helen,

    Are you actually here on this thread proclaiming yourself to be Christian? If so, . . . has the devil gotten a hold of you somehow?
    Your mind, your mouth and your typing hand?! Did you just use the word ‘fagget’ to describe another human being?

    Is this really how we behave as Christians?

    Remember:

    ‘Judge not lest ye be judged’

    AND

    ‘Love is the fulfillment of the law’

    Perhaps a little more Bible reading and a lot less trolling the internet would be beneficial for a while.

  • Pingback: Why am I Bothered by the Duggars? | Janet Oberholtzer

  • Missi

    The Duggars are not part of the Quiverful movement. They have stated that many times. Personally, I would love for any of my 5 children to turn out to be as wonderful as the Duggar kids. They seem kind and generous, loving, and focused on helping others. What a blessing they are to the world!

  • Claire

    Michelle didn’t have an emergency caesarian at 23 weeks because of the gallstones. It was the pre-eclampsia that mandated the c-section. The gallstones were unrelated. The pre-eclampsia could definitely return in a future pregnancy.


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