Quoting Quiverfull: Twerking Kills Your Soul?

by Ladies Against Feminism from their site – Answering the Shame of Miley Cyrus

(Editor’s Note: LAF are upset with Miley’s recent performance on MTV’s VMA awards. I’m sure by now most of you have seen the original clip they reference. If not click here —Miley Cyrus )

Miley Cyrus has a lot of shameful things to say to the world and that is putting it nicely. She is an icon of a soul that is a wasteland and she’s taking others

down with her. The Dave Ryan Show reports that,

“Miley Cyrus’ controversial performance at the MTV Video Music Awards is now the most-tweeted moment of the year. Twitter announced on Monday that Miley and her provocative dancing with singer Robin Thicke set a record on the social networking site, garnering 306,000 tweets per minute. Four-point-five million tweets about Miley went out during the award show’s two-hour airtime.”

Spreading her foul stench at record breaking speeds I might add. You and I both know people we need to reach out to who are following her lead on the downward spiral. Just this morning I shared the gospel with a young lady who had never heard the message about godly purity, chastity and the sin of Miley Cyrus. She listened. She and seemed to be convicted. While I gave her the Word I also reached for some trusted resources, which I have listed below.

Join LAF on twitter  as we treat @mileycyrus along with wonderful quotes from some of the following books and interfere with her worldwide trending status. Hope to see you there.

Comments open below

 

QUOTING QUIVERFULL is a regular feature of NLQ – we present the actual words of noted Quiverfull leaders and ask our readers: What do you think? Agree? Disagree? This is the place to state your opinion. Please, let’s keep it respectful – but at the same time, we encourage readers to examine the ideas of Quiverfull honestly and thoughtfully.

NLQ Recommended Reading …

Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment‘ by Janet Heimlich

Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland

Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce

 

About Suzanne Calulu
  • Fledgeling Feminist

    I would rather have a daughter who danced like Miley than a son who thinks like Robin Thicke

  • Nightshade

    YES. I can’t say I’m comfortable with the whole performance-my conservative upbringing is showing, I’m sure!-but I’ve at least reached the point of recognizing that my discomfort is not a valid reason to say ‘Naughty Miley, you shouldn’t be DOING that!’

  • texcee

    The local DJ talked about it the morning after and what he had to say was very telling. He said his 8 year old daughter was sitting beside him when they happened to click over to the MVAs just as Miley went into her performance. As he grabbed for the remote to change the channel, he looked down at his little girl and she was sitting there with tears rolling down her cheeks. She was a Hannah Montana fan and this was what she saw her favorite TV star doing. The DJ said he never wanted to see that expression on his kid’s face again and I completely agree with him. An innocent child has been harmed by Miley’s lewd performance. She will never regain that innocence.

  • Cheryl Ann Hannah-Nicholson

    When you have people like Will Smith and his children who are involved in the celebrity world staring open mouthed in shock, a line was crossed. Miley did herself no favors. And Robin Thicke was sickening.

  • Taylor Joy

    It’s not conservative or anti-feminist to say that Miley’s performance was disgusting and degrading to women. Which men were dressed in next to nothing, performing simulated sex acts? Robin Thicke was fully dressed, acting cool and above it all, while Miley degraded her own body next to his. Justin Timberlake and NSync actually *danced* skillfully–and again, fully clothed–instead of simply grabbing their crotches and showing their tongues. Miley’s performance was utterly, ridiculously, objectifying of women. The men acted as if all they had to do was stand back and receive the sexual wave that was rolling their way. Freaking disgusting.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    I think we often forget that openly behaving like that DOES harm children, and give them a wrong idea of what adulthood is, and what they are expected to do and be in future. Just because we left some/ many most of our previously held ideas, is no reason to suddenly throw all our previously held ideas out the window.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    The messages that something like this gives girls on what they should be are, in
    themselves, at least as harmful as the messages that Quiverfull gives girls.
    A major difference is intensity of the dosage in which girls get this harmful message: Nobody is saying here that God wants all girls to act like Miley, and this is not the first messages a girl get from first learning to process speech.

    But I won’t pretend that children do not get any dangerous messages from actions like this. And ironically enough, the message remains: “Women should please men, they should be willing to be animals (less than human) to please men. Your fame, your identity, lay in pleasing men.”

    This time, I am on the same side as LAF (provided the rest of their article do not say something crazy).

    Here http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/What-is-twerking-Bet-your-child-knows-4772979.php , a news site also say: “Let’s move … to the place where we work hard to teach our daughters that striving for stripper-chic is the worst thing they could do.”
    Amen!

  • Volcheka

    How, in your world view does behavior like that harm children? The culture that says women’s sexuality is shameful looks to do far more harm to children, by teaching them that flirting, and dancing are somehow “bad”, and only dirty girls want to have sex.

  • newcomer

    I’m sorry that his daughter was hurt, but also think it’s grossly unfair to hold a 20-year-old woman accountable to upholding 8-year-old children’s innocence. Miley has made it extremely clear that she doesn’t want to be Hannah Montana anymore, in her new appearance, in her performances, in everything. She signed on to be Hannah Montana at age 11. ELEVEN. She has been under contract with Disney throughout her adolescence, under extreme pressure to present this squeaky-clean image, and maybe that just isn’t her, or who she wants to be. Maybe she’s just now trying to figure out who she wants to be. Maybe we need to stop looking at her as the object of a fanbase (one that started growing when she was a child herself), and start seeing her as a person who has as much right as anyone to find her real identity. She’s a person, not a role model. She’s just more in the public eye than most, and these days would be whether she wanted to be or not, due to decisions made by her and countless handlers in her childhood.

    I’m not saying that I didn’t find the sexuality in the performance a bit forced and over-the-top. I’m also not saying that I’m not a little concerned for her future, since she seems to be following a similar arc to other ex-Disney stars who publicly spiral out of control the moment their contract is up. However, I personally think that this is symptomatic of another problem, the result of a person growing up under the public eye where every mistake is magnified and they are expected to present a perfect image at all times. I think this is minister’s daughter syndrome, only with more income and media coverage, and a fan base instead of a congregation.

  • texcee

    It harms children because it sexualizes them before they are mature enough to understand or handle it. I am not against dancing, despite being raised Baptist, but exposing children to an overtly sexual performance is abhorrent.

  • newcomer

    She’s 20. And she’s pretty clearly no longer pitching to a child audience. It is up to parents to determine what their children can handle being exposed to, and limit their viewing accordingly.

    My own parents were always open about the facts of life with me, I saw sexual parts in movies sometimes, read books with occasional sex scenes, and came through adolescence a lot less harmed than my friends who had their ears and eyes covered, didn’t know how their bodies worked, got into situations that they had no idea existed much less how to handle them, and had an extreme burden of shame placed on them for all of it. If your child watches something that is more sexual than you’d like, or sexual in a way that you dislike, the way that YOU handle it is probably going to have much more effect on how harmed your child is in the long run than whatever they saw.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    Uhm, I’ve seen stuff as an adult that hurt my view of sexuality, how men and women should treat each other, and what I could expect of a husband.
    I prefer not to elaborate, as people may judge me for calling things harmful to me that liberals want to call good. On this site it is acceptable to bash at least some forms of religion (and even I, a Christian, find patriarchy highly bashable) but to claim I was harmed by how adults act in public and what they say of their sex lives is less acceptable.

    So, parents watching their children would not solve the problem. It makes a large difference, though.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    It tells them that the most appreciated women – and let’s face it, many more people hear way more often of Miley Cyrus than, say, of Malala Yousafzai, are those who cater to men, who get naked when men are still dressed, that the biggest way to be successful is to act the way that would please men.

  • Trollface McGee

    So what is a child star supposed to do? They’re going to grow up – they’re going to go through what every other person goes through growing up, finding themselves, making dumb decisions etc. etc.
    We expect female child stars to remain highly sexually desirable innocent virgins – not good for the star and a much worse example for that 8 year old girl (especially factoring in our rape culture).
    It was a bad performance, tasteless, crude, sure.. but the moral outrage over that, instead of the fact that one of the most popular songs of the summer glorifies rape culture, the fact that male superstars get away with a whole lot worse is a lot worse.

  • Trollface McGee

    The VMAs are not targeted towards children. Hannah Montana has been off the air for years. Exposing kids to sex and violence is bad, yes – that’s what parents are supposed to do.

  • Trollface McGee

    And adults should be allowed to be adults. I have no problem with places being child-friendly. However, expecting every aspect of society to be G-rated, is unreasonable.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    “Male superstars get away with worse” you say? When have a male star appeared on stage pretend-naked and engaging in sexual acts? Or, for that matter, two male stars got away with kissing each other intimately on stage, as several woman stars have done?

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    You are right that everything in society cannot be expected to be G-rated.

    But I expect humans to have basical consideration of their fellow humans, and not engage in behavior in public that could be harmful for some other people. Stages are public, any show that will be shown on TV without an age restriction is public.

    A society that say “it is not my job to consider the least” (the children) is a society with a dead conscience.

  • Trollface McGee

    Um…plenty? Pretty much every metal hair band from the 80s had far more suggestive performances. And the one guy (who I can’t remember the name) who pulled a random 14 year old from the audience and simulated sex. Not to mention violence. Where was the “oh won’t anyone think of the children” when Michael Vick brutally abused dogs or when Chris Brown beat up his girlfriend?
    And what’s wrong with two people kissing?

  • newcomer

    I’m in no way saying that nothing sexual is ever harmful or unhealthy, at all at all at all, but as an adult you (hopefully) have the ability to examine the things that make you uncomfortable, figure out what bothers you about them, and through that develop a better understanding of what you want your own sexual experiences to be (and not be). Not everyone is comfortable with BDSM relationships, for example, and they shouldn’t have to be. It doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with you if that isn’t appealing to you. But power dynamics are present in vanilla relationships, too, and the particular aspects of BDSM that you don’t like are applicable- you can figure out a LOT about how you want you and your partner to treat each other through that discomfort, and act on it.

    Learning about things that bother you deeply is just part of being an adult living in the real world. You adjust your worldview as necessary, and continue on with your life as best you can. If your child was party to it, it can be important to have one of those uncomfortable conversations where you outline just exactly what you’re upset about, and why, especially since kids are still looking for clues about what sex IS, and it can be very easy for them to think something abusive is a normal part of sex without an adult stepping in and clarifying what is happening. If someone keeps talking to you or your child about sexual things when it’s making you uncomfortable and you’ve asked them to stop, though, that’s usually considered sexual harassment.

  • Trollface McGee

    There are plenty of TV shows, movies, performances that are not targeted toward children. We have TV channels devoted to horror movies – should those be eliminated? No, because we have a rating system and every TV has a filter so that shows can be blocked.
    I’m pretty sure the VMAs are rated for teens and up.
    Saying that we allow some things for adults and some things for children is a far cry from saying we are not considering children or trying to protect them.

  • Madame

    I agree.
    There is NOTHING wrong with sex. It’s good. But sexualized dancing like that doesn’t belong in public, especially not in front of unexpecting children.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    If these shows are rated, my argument’s standards are met and I have no comment on this particular case.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    “I’m in no way saying that nothing sexual is ever harmful or unhealthy, at all at all at all, but as an adult you (hopefully) have the ability to examine the things that make you uncomfortable, figure out what bothers you about them, and through that develop a better understanding of what you want your own sexual experiences to be (and not be).”

    I do, but that don’t mean stories of unhealthy relationships – women who stay with abusers, for example, do not cause me to stay awake, especially when they describe tha sickest facts of their relationships – and still not have the self-awareness to realize these things are sick. I may learn from them, but it still hurts to know I can do nothing to help those caught up in it.

    “it can be very easy for them to think something abusive is a normal part of sex without an adult stepping in and clarifying what is happening.”
    I agree. And that is totally a reason to talk to our children about what they see. But how I wish we could present more health and less sickness to them.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I posted this not because I approve of what Miley Cyrus did, I don’t care about that, particularly in light of past VMAs… Madonna and Britney kissing, Adam Lambert kissing a guy on stage, Britney’s various costumes/performances. It’s the VMAs, they always take it too far, which is part of why I don’t watch it and I surely would never allow children watch it.

    I was shocked that Ladies Against Feminism decided in light of the performance to say that Miley had no soul and everyone who was a True Christian ™ should fill Miley’s twitter with Bible texts and salvation calls. They openly called for the members to harass. Miley and that’s plain old wrong no matter what your thoughts on religion are.

  • Guest

    I have never heard the name Michael Vick, so whatever he did on or off stage with dogs would get less attention in a celeb-reading culture. In fact, although I heard the name Cris Brown I cannot recall his face (I am not big on celeb culture) so I assume he is not as famous either, I did read critism of what he did, and he did not do it on stage.
    As for men kissing on stage, your question of what is wrong with it is unjust because I never commented on it. The point is that society let woman celebs get away with it, but male stars will never even try it – it will hurt their reputation too much. What I think of it don’t matter, the point is that men do not get away with more on stage, as far as I see.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    They said she had no soul? If you quoted that, this conversation would sure have been different.

  • Brennan

    “She is an icon of a soul that is a wasteland”

  • Brennan

    Cris Brown is very, very famous, actually, as is Michael Vick, though he is a football player and not a musician. By your own words, you’re “Not big on celeb culture,” which is fine, but given that, why do you feel that you ought to be taken as an expert on what men do or don’t get away with on stage? Perhaps you simply don’t see the disconnect because you’re not watching the performances and don’t realize how common it is for male performers to grope/grind against/spank female dancers on stage. It’s just as demeaning as what Miley did, but it’s not at all controversial because it’s done *to* female bodies rather than *by* them. For a representative example, take the 2004 Super Bowl halftime show. This is widely remembered as the show where Janet Jackson flashed the audience. What actually happened was that Justin Timberlake, who was performing with Jackson, pulled her shirt open. But, the headlines did not read “Justin Timberlake strips a woman at the Super Bowl halftime show” and Timberlake was not the one blacklisted within the music industry. There is a double standard, but it’s certainly not coming down harder on the men.

  • Theo Darling

    You said it perfectly.

  • Theo Darling

    “Just because we left some/ many most of our previously held ideas, is no reason to suddenly throw all our previously held ideas out the window.” Wow wow wow no wow no. Can’t even count the times people have said this to me, usually about Christianity. People who don’t even know me give me dirty looks when they find out that I’m an ex-Christian who’s swung way around to the other side, because how dare I insinuate that their faith/lifestyle/whatever isn’t as wholesome and healthy as they maintain. How dare I.

    But you know what, even the “benevolent” parts of Christianity (and more generally, the status quo) are oppressive to me and have caused me great pain. Perhaps the reason more blatantly harmful elements are allowed to remain in our culture, our religions, for so long is that they’re legitimized by and hidden inside the “good” parts. There are real reasons to, yes, throw ALL your previously-held ideas away, if they are all damaging, if they all contribute to a feeling of self-hatred so deep you would just rather be dead than have to wade through it any longer. There are real reasons to reevaluate all the stuff you inherited from your parents and the “authority” figures in your life, there are real reasons to decide that all that inherited stuff is bullshit and dangerous and not helpful for you anymore, and you are perfectly entitled to do it, thank Lucifer.

  • Theo Darling

    The VMAs are not directed at children. Bam.

  • Theo Darling

    I wish to god we could just acknowledge that exploitation of women is wrong and a real problem without simultaneously erasing the agency of sex workers, people with lower sexual inhibitions, or just sex-positive people in general. “Stripper-chic” is the worst thing you could do? If that’s what you genuinely like? Wow.

  • Saraquill

    I have a strong feeling that the writer’s enjoying scorning Ms. Cyrus.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Actually what LAF said was not that she was soul less but – “She is an icon of a soul that is a wasteland and she’s taking others
    down with her” – a soul that is a wasteland? How do they know that? Because she acted like many others do during the VMAa?

    She’s more an icon of someone tightly controlled by her family and DIsney for years and is going a little too far the other way. Sort of like some preachers kids. She’s young, she’s rebellious, not unheard of in former child stars or even regular kids

  • brbr2424

    But Miley Cyrus is one of the gang. She’s a bible believing Christian who thanks God and Jesus when she wins awards.

    There was something very un-sexy about the performance. I don’t like to be a prude but the word lewd comes to mind.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Oh, please. No harm was done to that child.

    She saw something that, until that point, she’d only heard cast in a negative light. And then she saw someone she looked up to not adhering to her puritanical view. There’s no harm in this unless you honestly think that people having views that conflict with yours hurts you.

    Miley Cyrus DID do a lot of harm with her performance, but it wasn’t to little kids with parents trying desperately to force negative sex ideas on them. It was to her black dancers, and the concept of consent, and her own image.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Seriously, please explain to me how seeing something you’ve taught a kid is wrong is in any way actually harmful.

    You’re being very fundie here.

  • Baby_Raptor

    No, it’s a society that knows it’s place. It’s not my job to worry about your children unless your children are actively undergoing real harm. Seeing Miley Cyrus dressed skimpily and doing sexual things does not harm anyone.

    You are perfectly capable of not watching shows that you think will expose your kids to things you don’t want them seeing. Why should the rest of us have to instead forgo things we might enjoy because you’re too lazy to do your job as a parent?

  • Baby_Raptor

    If you can actually prove that you were harmed by what you saw, instead of just getting your “sensibilities” hurt, then by all means complain.

    Christians as a whole seem to have a major issue with conflating “I don’t like this” with “It hurts me.”

    People having a different set of views than you does not harm you. So, for example, let’s say you saw a couple acting in a way that you personally don’t think fits how your marriage should work. Claiming this is harming you is a a bald-faced lie.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Why? Because you might have to answer some questions about what sex is?

    If that’s truly abhorrent to you, do your job as a parent and keep your kids from seeing sexual things until you think they’re ready. But be aware that they’ll know what sex is LONG before you decide for them that they’re mature enough. And stop lying about this being actual harm unless yo can point out a way that they’re actually damaged.

  • Baby_Raptor

    “Gotten away with it”? You say this like they committed some kind of crime.

    Watch what you’re saying. You’re edging very close to some real bigotry there.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Or, you know…We could work on moving towards a place where women decide what they want to do, and if that happens to be dancing on a stripper pole, then nobody judges them for it because we’ve all matured enough that everyone realizes that judging and forcing their views of what is and isn’t okay is wrong.

  • Baby_Raptor

    But it’s perfectly fine when a heterosexual couple kisses on stage, right? Nobody would dare call that “too far.”

    The double standard here is amazing.

  • Hannah

    I’ll be honest… I don’t get the outrage. She’s a *child star*. It’s so rare for something like this NOT to happen to them. She’s been forced into a box for a long time and not been given the opportunity to explore who she is, what she really wants. Now she’s not under Disney’s control anymore, she’s rebelling way harder than she would have otherwise. Seems to me Quiverfull should take note: the harder you clamp down on, stifle, and force a child to be a particular thing, the harder they will rebel when they finally break free. But I guess that’s their whole philosophy, stifle so hard they don’t realise there’s something, anything, else out there. Miley was forced to be something, now she’s trying everything she can to be the opposite. As crass as her display was, I can’t say I’m surprised. Something like this was rather inevitable with her.

    Kind of makes me think of Tangled. Forced to live in both innocence and fear, all it took was noticing that a man didn’t have sharp teeth for Rapunzel’s world to come crashing down. If that was a lie, what else could be?

  • SJ Reidhead

    It was tacky and trashy and she’s laughing all the way to the bank. Can’t see much difference in that and ministers who ‘sin’, repent, and go back to collect big bucks damning sinners. It’s all about money, even for ladies who are against feminism. I guess they get their money the hard way, by sleeping with it.

    SJR

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I didn’t say I approved/disapproved of the kissing, just summed up the moments the media said were outrageous. Could not care less who does or doesn’t kiss at the VMAs.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I think it was a definite middle finger towards Disney.

  • erica

    As a parent, I would expect that MTV programming might not always be appropriate for a young child.

    Personally, that type of performance doesn’t appeal to me at all. But Miley Cyrus is now an adult, and I don’t see why she shouldn’t be able to choose to do that if that’s what she wants. Is she obligated to preserve the image she had as a child actress forever? Is she ever allowed to grow up and choose what she wants to do for herself?

    After a child performer grows up, it can be hard for them to be taken seriously as an adult. Some of them do things that may appear shocking when they try to break that mold. Does anyone remember the fuss a few years ago, after he was done with Harry Potter, about Daniel Radcliffe acting in Equus, a stage play that included nude scenes?

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    I am not a parent. I say this because I actually care about the welfare of children however much or little their parents shelter them. You are actively trying to read the worst into everything I say, both here and elsewhere in this thread. (“Too lazy to do your job as a parent”, in this case.) Your attitude stinks.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    Yes, people with different views from me do not harm me. But people who, for years, influenced my view of what a relationship should be, made me fearful and distrustful of men, and made me accept selfish and boorish behavior from guys because at least the guys do not do things like urinating in my mouth, purposefully give me a barrage of insults or enjoy hitting me or playing at rape, as I assumed that most guys want, did harm me. And even knowing the truth now(most guys are not like that) does not immediately undo the feelings of fear and distrust that goes along with such a view of men.
    If you want to keep on believing I was not hurt, or that I am lying, or find, in what I said, an excuse to insult me, go ahead. How you treat me say more of you than about me.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    You are obviously looking for opportunities to insult: I’m “fundie” and “too lazy to parent” (while I ironically have no children and speak on behalf of other people’s!) and you even imply elsewhere in this thread that I am lying. If your question were respectful, I would have answered you, but I know that any answer I give, may be subject to more insults. I don’t think you want to listen. You want to insult.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    Have you thrown out ideas that you should look before crossing streets, should eat regularly, stopped believing your mother’s name is [whatever], or stopped speaking English, as I assume you spoke since childhood? I hear what you say, and you could re-evaluate if you want, but nobody throw out all they heard.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    “… judging and forcing their views of what is and isn’t okay is WRONG.”
    Are you judging me and forcing your view here? Or is your opininion that this is wrong just a personal opinion?

  • Baby_Raptor

    “Let’s move … to the place where we work hard to teach our daughters that striving for stripper-chic is the worst thing they could do.”

    This is forcing an opinion on someone. Teaching a child only what you approve of instead of exposing them to everything with an added “…But mommy and daddy believe X and here’s why” IS forcing your beliefs on someone and not respecting their right to establish their own code.

    I advocated for everyone keeping their opinions to themselves and not judging other women for what they consider good/bad.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Yup. That’s all I want: To insult you. It can’t possibly be that I’m just telling you how you come across. I have nothing better to do with my life than sit on the internet and insult random people.

  • Baby_Raptor

    The big difference in your examples and Theo’s is that eating, looking before you cross a street, ETC have tangible, proven benefits. Christianity? Nothing proven or tangible yet.

  • Baby_Raptor

    You’re throwing out a huge accusation there that you have no proof for, and then using it to dismiss me because you don’t like what I’m saying. Good game; that really helps.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Please point out one place where I actually insulted you. I’ll wait.

  • Independent Thinker

    Facts are supported by data. Faith and religion are supported by emotion. If I take two groups of people and blindfold group A then ask them to cross the street in NYC they are far more likely to encounter danger than group B the group that looks both ways. I can do the same experiment in LA and get the exact same results. I can do the experiment in different types of weather and I will always get the same results. The group that looks both ways will always be safer than the blindfolded group. Comparing a factual argument to an emotional situation is a straw man scenario.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    Once again, you appear to read the worst in my comments. I never called it a crime. I opinied that, by society’s standards, a male stars popularity will fall if he engage in gay kissing on stage, but not that of a female star.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    I am dismissing your idea that I am too lazy to do my job as a parent because I am a non-parent who actively work to parent the children of others.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    I believe everything you said – except that my faith is supported by much more than emotion. (But then, religion is not the topic. Religion is not the main reason why certain messages harm young people.) You said nothing against my assertion that people do not have to throw out everything they learned.

  • Baby_Raptor

    You openly advocated for censoring something that you personally think kids should not see *from everyone* because you disapprove of it, instead of requiring parents to use their discernment and do their job.

    Yes, in this area you are saying that you’re too lazy to do your job.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    Christianity’s benefits have been proven to me. But not in a laboratory way, but in the way your friends prove their character. I cannot demonstrate the evidence of Christianity’s benefits to anyone who do not even see me or know how it affected my life.

    And how is your reply on topic? I answered a claim about throwing out “all previously held ideas” and you just said some ideas are different from others. I agree, some ideas are different from others. (And religion is not the topic of why Miley’s behavior may have an influence on someone.)

  • Baby_Raptor

    You used words that are most often associated with someone getting off on doing something illegal. It’s not my job to read your mind on what you really meant. And reacting to the words you used and what you meant in a plain reading does not mean I’m looking for the worst in it.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Then you cannot use that proof to insist that things that have been factual proven are equal.

  • Independent Thinker

    I understand your point of view. It’s obvious the formula for raising happy perfect children doesn’t work based on the results within your own family. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The only way change is going to occur in your life is to change the approach. You know what formula doesn’t work now you need to find the one that does. The good news is half the battle is won. You are smart enough to realize taking the same approach moving forward is insane.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    What is my job as a non-parent which I am too lazy for? Should other non-parents do the same job? Is it, say, the job of Miley Cyrus?
    I have not said to shelter everyone, I said to keep things to adult places – and hearing on this thread that the show was probably rated to keep it for children affected my view of it.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    “Too lazy to do my job as a parent” – more than once on this thread, while I am a non-parent who actively volunteer with young people while getting not one cent from it. (And sometimes paying for courses and books to do my work better.) That judgment do not even hurt as it is too nonsensical.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    I am sure you have better things to do with your life than insulting me. You are free to go do them.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    I cannot, I won’t, and did not.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    Okay, you will keep your opinion to yourself and stop judging me for what I consider good/bad?

  • Independent Thinker

    Stripper chic can not be defined. If we are going to move to a certain place in society shouldn’t we know what that place is going to look like when we get there. Is a leather jacket stripper chic, how about knee high boots, or red nail polish? What about sheer fabrics or bikinis?

  • Independent Thinker

    “Religion is not the main reason why certain messages harm young people.” Religion is an organized collection of beliefs. It is not the religion itself that is harmful it is beliefs espoused within the religion that can be harmful. Unfortunately even a single harmful belief can be greatly damaging to those within the organization.

  • Baby_Raptor

    Please read my first sentence again. It answers your question.

    “But I expect humans to have basic consideration of their fellow humans, and not engage in behavior in public that could be harmful for some other people. Stages are public, any show that will be shown on TV without an age restriction is public.”

    This, right here, was you calling for the public censoring of something you think harms kids. It was also you implying that people who do not behave the way you approve of lack basic consideration for anyone else.

    You keep reiterating that you do not have kids. That doesn’t matter here. You’re pontificating on what parents should and should not do, and what society at large should do because kids exist. Refusing to monitor your own kids according to your values, and instead demanding society adhere to your standards, is refusing to do your job as a parent. Saying that other people who have kids should do the same is advocating laziness for them.

  • Baby_Raptor

    No, because you’re not doing that. You’re demanding that everyone adhere to your views. Why is it okay when you do it, but not when I call you out on it? And why are you posting on the internet if you cannot handle hearing conflicting views?

  • Baby_Raptor

    You are openly talking about how people should parent, how you plan to parent, and how you help other people parent. To claim that what I said is nonsensical is…Well, nonsensical. What I said applies, whether you currently have biological offspring or not.

    If I wanted to insult you, I’d actually insult you. Pointing out a flaw in your arguments is not insulting you, even if I didn’t dress it up in pretty words.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    You are demanding I live up to your standards, before you will start living up to your standards. Remember that “judging others is wrong” is your standards not mine, and I do not need to practise what you preach. The idea that I cannot handle conflicting views is your idea, I simply point out that you are not practising what you preach.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    Insisting that “too lazy to do my job as a parent” apply to me does not make it apply. Nor is it “pointing out a flaw in my arguments.”
    (Did I ever mention how I plan to parent? And if I did, was it something that proved to you that I would be too lazy to teach my hypothetical children?)

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    I never said what parents shouldn’t do, and as such cannot be advocating laziness in them. Your view is structurally similar to arguing: “Having social services protect children is to allow parents to not do so.” You are, for some reason, not rational about my entries here: You keep on reading things in them that are just not there.

  • http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/ Retha Faurie

    Afterthought: Me saying: “People should consider children in what they do in public” (before knowing the show has an age restriction) and you answering: “You are too lazy to parent your own children” is structurally similar to:

    “We should care about abused children” being answered by: “You are too cruel to not abuse your children.”

    The basic view behind both is that people (should) only care about their own children and nobody else’s. I reject that assumption.

  • Trollface McGee

    Yes, exactly. It’s hard getting typecast. It’s even worse when you get typecast at 11. Of course she doesn’t want to be/can’t realistically be Hannah Montana for the rest of her life and it seems like she wants a career in the performing arts… and she’s 20. I think of all the stupid, stupid, stupid things my friends and I did when we were in our late teens/early twenties and I thank God there wasn’t a proliferation of cell phone cameras back then.
    Add to that the Disney thing and being a child star and you get a bad performance but it certainly isn’t unexpected nor is it something horrific and awful.

  • Theo Darling

    Nice try. This argument isn’t about amnesia, it’s about consciously examining the values you grew up with and deciding whether or not they serve you. And yeah, I cannot think of a single value that my parents taught me that I have NOT discarded.

  • Sara Lin Wilde

    It’s striking here: the assumption that nudity and sex acts, particularly man-on-man ones, are the best examples of celebrities “getting away with worse”. The thing is, masculinity is viewed very different from femininity; offering oneself up sexually for public consumption is coded as women’s work, and that kind of display from men would be seen as weird and off-kilter. The ways male celebrities act out on and offstage look very different. So it seems like the question isn’t “Who gets away with worse?” but rather “Why are these the particular acts female celebs engage in, and why do we view depictions of women’s sexuality in such negative terms?”

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I would like to know why no one is laying any blame for their outrage at the feet of Robin Thicke. He was right there with her, a man much older than her singing a song with lyrics that approve of rape culture.

  • Shadow Spring

    That tweet was manufactured. Willow was just chewing her gum, and the picture wasn’t even snapped during Mile’s performance.

    But beyond that, since when did Will Smith and his family become the arbiters of morality? You do know that Will and Jada have an open marriage, right? They are free to sleep around with other people at will and it does not threaten their marriage. I find no problem with that, but I know it doesn’t line up with any Christian doctrine I’ve ever heard of.

  • Shadow Spring

    Yup, that’s the bigger issue. Miley used to be held up to evangelical girls, along with that boy band, the Jonas Brothers, as promoters of purity culture. Miley was on public record stating that she did not believe in sex before marriage and planned to stay a virgin until her wedding night. THAT’s why all those young children were up watching the VMAs with their parents. And that’s the real reason they are angry.


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