I suppose I look at the slimepit differently

Ophelia Benson just posted with some slime-bait, and I think she made an excellent point. I started writing this in the comments section on , but realized it was getting too long.

***Edit:

I do not support myself.

Comments are hereby suspended. I fucked up. This post was a massive fail. I thought I could solve a year’s worth of ‘debate’ with a sneak attack post. Fuck everything about the anthill I just kicked up. Apologies, all around. I shades-of-grey-knighted. Real life will keep a full post from coming until tonight.***

First off, let me say that I agree that people shouldn’t use gendered slurs. This is a lesson I really think is important. It’s a hard-fought lesson for me. Let me walk you through it.

My initial thoughts are complex. I wince when I see racism, sexism, etc. I stop it and correct it when I see it in my soldiers. But I think a part of me deep down says “Don’t you tell me what I can and can not say… free speech mother fuckers!… Words are just words!… Even the /b/tards at 4/7/99chan aren’t actually racist or nazis. They think it’s funny to be outrageous and shocking… and they laugh hardest at the people who aren’t in on the joke.”

From the comments section:

The point is that there’s not some Rule that says it’s bad awful terrible to say “You are a filthy, dirty, ugly subhuman gorilla,” or “Lets hope that AIDS will do what sickle cell anemia failed to do, exterminate your whole simian race” but perfectly fine to say “I would kick her in the cunt” or “smelly skepchick snatch” or “Rebitchka Twatson.” - Ophelia

I completely agree with the point she’s making about the types of slurs being more or less analogous. However, I think the underlying reason for this language isn’t hatred or bigotry on the part of the ‘slimepitter’. I’ll mansplain in a bit.

I dislike the idea that these statements are automatically / always ‘off limits’. It seems puritanical to call their usage uniformly ‘bad awful terrible‘. There simply have to be some exceptions. There are situations where use of these terms may be acceptable, tolerable, or otherwise forgivable.

Please forgive me for parading out some of the tropes. Correct me if you see it.

1. John Lennon – “Woman is the Nigger of the World”

www.youtube.com/embed/Tl-7-wjQO1k?

Though his explanation of his lyrics is generally on point, it stumbles a few times. Once again, illustrating that brilliant people aren’t always right on. John Lennon went Lenny Bruce. And this argument is a bit of a slippery slope, I’d recoil in a similar defense of Meredith Brooks nauseating “I’m a Bitch”.

My stance: His intentions were clear and admirable, but his goal was unrealistic. I may even say that he’s a dreamer.

2. Dead Milkmen – Bitchin’ Camaro (skip to 1:52 if you’re impatient)

www.youtube.com/embed/1v3CzvQ9e_w?

I’m sure that Ophelia (or some other awesome blogger) can correct me here – please do so. This is one of the few remaining ways that I’ll use this word. How does the ‘no gendered slurs’ rule apply when the word is intended as a compliment. “I’ve got a BITCHIN’ Camaro!”

I’m no etymologist here, but I think this usage evolved from the urge to be emphatic with vulgar language in a positive situation. Similar to “I’m the shit!” Or perhaps Trainspotting’s usage of “Cunt” as a term of endearment “Yeah, he’s a good cunt.” (meaning, he’s a good guy / friend.)

I suspect this type of reasoning is thrown about frequently. Seriously, help me out on this one!

My stance: I’m on the fence.

3. Half of stand-up comedy.

I’m not capable of resisting laughter when I watch comedians like Dave Chappelle use racially and sexually charged words. I think it’s universal humor that actually attempts to undermine the very stereotypes it portrays. Unfortunately, in Chappelle’s case, he saw that it was socially irresponsible humor. He noticed that the wrong people were laughing AT him (and not in the good way). His interview on Oprah was touching, and it further made me agree that people should avoid gendered / racial epithets.

So Chappelle learned the socially irresponsible effects of his choice in words. I’m sad that so far he hasn’t really gone on to do some other comedy, having learned this lesson. What about my Chappelle show DVD’s though? Are they magically not funny anymore? Can’t a joke be offensive when seen without the intended irony, and still be funny?

Lenny Bruce famously attempted to remove ‘nigger’ from the list of bad words so that some 6 year old black girl wont have to cry anymore. Noble sentiment, sure. It didn’t work. It’s not practical.

My stance: people on the internet generally aren’t Lenny Bruce, or Dave Chappelle. Lenny’s plan didn’t work, and Dave regrets his. Both were still funny. I think that there certainly are corners of the internet where people do get the irony. Those are typically places where you don’t attach your name to your statements – because they are so shocking that you want to remain anonymous. (so post there! NSFW)

Otherwise, you may come off sounding like Andrew Dice Clay. *shudder*

4. Dirty talk / Role Play.

I don’t think this is an area of contention. BOTH sides espouse sex-positive approaches. If you weren’t allowed to say dirty words, or even degrade a consenting sex partner… I think everyone would have a problem. Consenting adults should have no restrictions on how they hump each other.

Love the slimer, not the slime

I enjoy swear words, and I loathe censorship. I sometimes enjoy humor with socially irresponsible epithets, but I enjoy them in socially responsible settings. For instance, as an audience member at a stand up comedy act, or as a consumer of Dave Chappelle DVD’s, or as an anonymous poster / lurker at 7chan.

If ERV’s so-called slime pit were self-contained, that might be a perfect spot. But it’s not self-contained at all!

I love you slimer, ghostbusters

I think the problem is that the ‘blog-comment scene’ is an interchange where your identity carries you outside of a socially responsible ‘irony usage’ of these words. It’s too socially diverse. If you comment at a place where you know such language isn’t welcome, you’re way out of line to use it. If you’re directly contacting a person known to dislike this language, and you use this language, you’re wrong. Not everyone gets it, because not everyone is in on the joke / freedom of speech angle.

I agree with the sentiment that some bloggers (everywhere, not just here) are over-zealous with the banhammer. I try to surround myself with people who aren’t afraid to tell me I’m wrong. If you’re banned for a disagreement that you launched with reasonable arguments, that’s a shame. I have yet to ban a single person, not even the drive-by ad hominem or the butt hurt theists, or the anarchist anti-military trolls. But my blog isn’t quite big enough to warrant moderation. Until my comment section turns into YouTube, all I need is a spam trap. That’s just me though.

Both sides of this argument seem a little blind right now. Both sides claim ‘sex positive’ approaches to their environment. Both sides are supportive of reasonable, realistic, ethical, enforceable, sexual harassment policies at events. Wasn’t that the point of the year long argument that erupted at elevator-gate?

That being said…

I support Abbie Smith. [edit: I meant, I read her blog. I think she's way off on the gendered slurs. I thought the rest of this post was clear about this. I use giant font to break up sections, like an author would use chapters.]

I don’t support everything she says or does, but I think she’s a great blogger. Everyone else thought so too before elevator-gate. She writes about all sorts of amazing science that I soak up like a sponge. She taught me what a ‘quasi species’ is. I’m also passionate about dogs, training, and the illogical intolerance of breeds based on misconceptions. Abbie also opened my eyes to ‘career ending’ moves by Brian Sapient.

I also really appreciate that the diverse chan-style humor brought a new edge to the atheist world. She gets that, and uses it well. Abbie is funny, but I think she is unaware of the socially irresponsible applications of that style of humor when she commands an audience that large. This is the paragraph in which I became a tone troll, too.

I like it when the slime-pitters call us names like PeeZus, etc. I like PZ a lot, but that’s pretty funny. I’m against idol-worship, autograph seeking, so I appreciated ‘PeeZus’. (Do I have a nickname yet?) But I don’t like the ‘Rebitchka Twatkins’ gender based slurs. I chuckled in a Beavis and Butthead manner the first time I saw it, but then I winced. I was like… NO! Abbie! Shit! Delete! They wont get it! Their brains aren’t desensitized by 4chan like ours. (A little later, I realized that desensitized might be synonymous with damaged in some sense.)

It’s also difficult to watch people I admire, like Jen McCreight and others do ‘caturday’ posts. Do they even know what they are paying homage to? Websites like icanhazcheezburger simply regurgitated the caturday posts from 4chan – but removed the racist stuff, much of the extreme sexual stuff, and otherwise sanitized it for public consumption.

Like this:

www.youtube.com/embed/dKVI2_Dl00Y?

I hate that song intensely. When this happened, I turned against this meme – now also called ‘lolcats’. When this caturday phenomenon started on 4chan, 50% was pure and innocent. However, popular common themes also tended to include rape, fascination with child porn, racism, and even “cat speak” versions of gendered slurs. Bitch becomes, bish. Etc.

That’s what I’m saying, though. This language does have a place. The ‘greater’ atheist blogosphere is simply not one of those places. It belongs in the various islands of Lenny Bruce clones. Rare as they are, they do exist. Our particular corner of the internet should probably be run more like this: if you wouldn’t say it to that person in real life face to face, don’t say it on their blog/twitter/facebook.

Did I just fall on my sword or on my face? It feels like I fell. Am I still somehow liked by both camps? Oh well, I spent way to long on this not to publish it.

About Justin Griffith
  • http://notungblog.wordpress.com/ Notung

    As the second commenter on this cartoon says: “Now you’ve done it!” ;)

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Great. That’s just what we needed. A parading around of nuanced cases of using “bad words” to distract from the 99 percent of shitty, gleeful misogyny. You know, all that stuff that’s actually going on. Try arguing this about “gay” or “fag” Justin. Seriously. Stop and think about it.

    Thanks for the best disappointment of my day!

  • http://blogingproject.blogspot.com/ “We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective”

    The shit on EVR isn’t just mean, some of it is slanderous. Seriously, your support of this is bullshit.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Abbie isn’t engaging in rank misogyny in an ironic sense. She’s not coddling it and encouraging it because she thinks that’s what her commenters are doing it for. There are over 10,000 comments on the “Slimepit threads” and they don’t include thoughtful analysis of gender or sexual relationships.

    They talk about kicking Rebecca Watson in the cunt, and complain about how they get banned when they do that at places like Pharyngula. They think they deserve to do whatever they want wherever they want, otherwise it’s us “censoring our self-contained bubble echo chambers” and we’re just too fragile or stupid or don’t have the evidence to back up our claims that their actions directly hurt people, i.e. rape victims.

  • Justin Griffith

    I don’t support slander, I don’t support use of this language. It’s a call for them all to leave ‘ironic bigotry’ in the rare islands of society that do in fact exist with a universal understanding that such language is ironic.

    @#2 I substituted ‘nigger’ to the same effect. Did you read what I wrote? I’m not claiming to be right about everything, but I think you totally misunderstand me.

  • http://notungblog.wordpress.com/ Notung

    Justin – it’s only a minority there that use that kind of language. I don’t, for instance. I also agree with your above comment.

  • http://www.facebook.com/tmax01 maxdevlin

    I’m with Josh.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/ Ophelia Benson

    Justin – it’s not ironic.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/ Ophelia Benson

    You know Karen Klein? On the school bus? That wasn’t ironic either.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Justin—your post has some good points and it’s not pure fail, but it’s got some really, really, really, really, really big fails and I’m surprised at you.

    Both sides of this argument

    No. False equivalence. Which “sides” are you talking about? The “it’s OK to bitch and twat and cunt and make rape jokes” side versus those of us who (as we’re being targeted) say “no?” Those “sides?” That’s fucking insulting and intellectually lazy. You’re better than that.

    Both sides are supportive of reasonable, realistic, ethical, enforceable, sexual harassment policies at events. Wasn’t that the point of the year long argument that erupted at elevator-gate?

    I’m going to charitably assume you haven’t been reading enough of what’s going on, because it is NOT true that the bitching-cunting side (see, I do get language in context. Duh.) supports those things. They’ve torn into people for proposing them! Some of them say they support reasonable policies, but then they draw lines so fine and mock/shame women when they report actual abuse. Justin, they’re NOT morally equivalent positions. Stop using the fallacy of the golden mean.

    That being said…

    I support Abbie Smith.

    I don’t support everything she says or does,

    What does this even mean? What are you trying to get across when you say you “support” Abbie Smith? Serious question, because it’s vague and loaded. For instance, it reads to me to be very likely implying the following things:

    1. Justin thinks there’s something wrong with peoples’ objections to Abbie.

    2. Justin means to get that point across in a scolding way, which is why he used big bold letters.

    3. Justin’s objections to the reaction to Abbie aren’t clear, but boy he sure looks like he’s morally scolding people who’ve cut her off and that’s really disturbing. It appears he doesn’t get how serious this is for many of us and that he thinks we’re going overboard not to overlook her behavior and keep “supporting” her blogging.

    Justin—seriously. Read this slowly, please, and think about it for a few minutes before you respond. Would you expect me not to get pissed if the slimepit were engaging in faggoty-fag-fag bash-you-fag shit? Would you expect me to be magnanimous and would you think it was appropriate for you to “support” the slimepit? I don’t think you would (good God, I hope you wouldn’t). But you’re doing that to women who are experiencing exactly the analogous abuse.

    Or something. But you don’t unpack it. At the very least it’s sloppy writing Justin—it’s the kind of thing politicians say when they mean to throw in with a “side” and scold the others but without taking responsibility for saying why in detail.

    You have a responsibility to do better. This isn’t just a gaffe on Abbie’s part and it’s pretty damned high-handed to act as if it were. If you don’t want people to read these implications in (and you may well dispute that you implied those things) then don’t write vague crap.

  • Sethra

    1. John Lennon – “Woman is the Nigger of the World”

    Lennon was an idiot for this concept and song title. Think about it critically for a moment: if “Woman is the Nigger of the World”, what does that make black women?

    That song was written from a place of extraordinary privilege and disregard for the experiences of black people – especially of black women – and it shows.

  • Stacy

    This language does have a place

    I agree with this. But I think the problem with the slimepit and its language isn’t simply that some people “don’t get it.” It’s that Abbie played host to sustained, irrational hatred for so long.

  • Justin Griffith

    @#1 That’s one of my favorite comments on a comic ever, and I’m familiar. I think my post might be a victim of tl;dr. It’s pretty fucking long, so it’s understandable.

    I’m in no way trying to justify / rationalize use of the words “bitch, cunt, slut, whore, twat.” I’m very much opposed to it, though I’m still confused about the ‘bitchin camaro’ thing (I have no dog in this fight either, and I don’t pretend that it’s a strong argument.)

    I’ve learned so much from Jen, Ophelia, Rebecca, etc. I just think that those lessons are lost on the anarchy / free speech / pro-troll / chan-style humorists like Abbie Smith. To them, it all sounds like ‘tone trolling’, and both sides are talking past each other.

    I think it’s dangerous and *socially irresponsible* to use speech like that in the atheist blogosphere. I just don’t think that Abbie is “wrong for the particular reasons” usually cited by her detractors. I think she is wrong for *other* reasons. She may be influencing undeniably bad behavior in people who aren’t familiar with the chan-roots.

    I seriously thought I would have more negative reaction from the ‘slimepit’. Perhaps I just fell on 2 swords.

    It was hard to give up chan-styled lingo and humor. I worked hard to drop it because of the amazing articles I read on Skepchick and BlagHag and others. I thought everybody knew it was a joke to say shit like ‘back in the kitchen, make me sandwich lulz!’.

    It’s wrong and stupid, and I’m sorry that I ever assumed we were in a post-sexism society. Seriously. I think there are other anon/channers out there that struggle to break free from this shit.

    It IS important, and I said as much. I just view Abbie Smith more like I view Dave Chappelle – who accidentally started being socially irresponsible with their humor. STILL A PROBLEM.

  • erk12

    I think I get what you’re saying Justin, I’ve spent a good amount of time on /b. The thing is, some number of those people on /b really are racists, homophobes, etc. If you are suggesting that all or most of what goes on in that thread at ERV is ironic bigotry rather than genuine hate of certain people, I don’t know that you’re correct in that. Really it’s impossible to tell that from blog comments. Even though I do like the free speech element, there’s just no way to tell if people are “in on the joke” or if they’re scumbags. I wouldn’t give a lot of people on the internet the benefit of the doubt that they’re not scumbags.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/ Ophelia Benson

    Justin, remember that guy who called Zoe an ugly baby?

    Would you support him in letters ten feet high?

    Remember the post I wrote about that guy, and about Zoe?

    I didn’t say anything about supporting him. I don’t support him.

  • Loqi

    Not buying the idea that the slime pit is just being ironic.

    They wont get it! Their brains aren’t desensitized by 4chan like ours.

    I interpreted this as, “They haven’t been around it so much that they no longer care.” And that’s horseshit. Just because it’s prevalent doesn’t make it okay. Would you be saying the same thing if casually referring to veterans as “baby killers” became so commonplace that the average person didn’t know what the big deal was? I certainly hope not.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    I left a comment about half an hour ago and it’s still in moderation. Was I caught by a bad word filter or something?

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Justin, why am I in moderation? Presuming you’re seeing this even if others don’t.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/ Ophelia Benson

    Or if referring to a soldier’s baby as “what an ugly baby” became so commonplace that the average person didn’t know what the big deal was? I too hope not.

  • smhll

    I’m a mom. I can tell you that three year olds think “poop” is about the funniest word ever. And gets funnier the more times in a row you say it. Twenty-three year olds feel brash when they say “cunt” and get a lot of attention for it? Awesome! (That was sarcasm.)

    I will laugh at shocking words in comedy routines myself, sometimes. However 90% of the time that I hear “cunt” and “nigger” and “fag”, they are being used as epithets intended to slam into someone like a wrecking ball. Folks out there, please spew responsibly. Because it often fails to amuse.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Oh, okay, it was a bad word filter. I used the C word in a quote. I guess the filter only lets the C word through if you’re using it ironically…

  • Justin Griffith

    Ophelia, I really would support it in the right context (4chan ‘for the lulz’). I said as much in the reddit comments of that article. It’s about chan-style humor. It’s hard to grasp.

    My problem wasn’t with him calling her ugly. It was that he had claimed moral superiority in his previous comment on a different video only minutes earlier. He had basically just stated that his Christianity led him to believe that “beating gay kids” is a sin.

    He was being mean BECAUSE the video was from an atheist. He was religiously persecuting a BABY.

    Seriously, I joke around like this all the time privately. My wife talked me out of designing a sticker that says “Proud parents of a terrible kid” (subtle variation on ‘terrific kid’). She winces when I say that Zoe’s middle name is ‘accident’. Etc.

  • Sethra

    My comment is stuck in moderation too. Ah well.

  • Loqi

    I thought everybody knew it was a joke to say shit like ‘back in the kitchen, make me sandwich lulz!’.

    We *do* know it is a joke. But it’s also a red flag. If someone is making jokes like this, I find that they tend to actually think this way. Also, just because it’s a joke (even if everyone is in on it) doesn’t mean it isn’t hurtful. If every time you tried to speak, you got shouted down with a deluge of “TITS OR GTFO”, you’d grow pretty fucking sick of the “joke” immediately.

  • Justin Griffith

    We *do* know it is a joke. But it’s also a red flag. If someone is making jokes like this, I find that they tend to actually think this way. Also, just because it’s a joke (even if everyone is in on it) doesn’t mean it isn’t hurtful. If every time you tried to speak, you got shouted down with a deluge of “TITS OR GTFO”, you’d grow pretty fucking sick of the “joke” immediately.

    I KNOW. THIS IS MY MEA CULPA! I am trying to explain how I shed this horrible way of thinking!

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Ophelia, I really would support it in the right context (4chan ‘for the lulz’). I said as much in the reddit comments of that article. It’s about chan-style humor. It’s hard to grasp.

    No. You know what’s hard to grasp for you? How goddamned privileged you are. How far removed from being a target of this kind of thing you really are, that you can rub salt in the wounds of friends and colleagues so casually by “supporting” this and pulling the irony card. This is an example of being socially irresponsible in where you talk about things Justin. You’re hurting real people that you probably care about.

  • John Morales

    Justin:

    If ERV’s so-called slime pit were self-contained, that might be a perfect spot. But it’s not self-contained at all!

    Have you actually perused the first thousand comments there before writing this near-encomium?

  • Justin Griffith

    I’m not used to approving this many comments. They will ALL be approved, I’ll check every 10-20 minutes. Try to use less than 2 links at a time.

    edit: LOL! I had set a rule for people that use ‘cunt’ or ‘nigger’ to trigger moderation. That’s why many of you are being caught.

  • screechymonkey

    However, I think the underlying reason for this language isn’t hatred or bigotry on the part of the ‘slimepitter’. I’ll mansplain in a bit.

    Even if we accept this premise, so what? Intent isn’t magic.

    I dislike the idea that these statements are automatically / always ‘off limits’. It seems puritanical to call their usage uniformly ‘bad awful terrible‘. There simply have to be some exceptions. There are situations where use of these terms may be acceptable, tolerable, or otherwise forgivable.

    First of all, who’s saying otherwise? Ophelia, among others, has “used” those terms at least in the sense of quoting some of the slurs. So nobody is taking the position that any use of the word ever, in any context, is “bad awful terrible.”

    In any discussion of slurs, it’s almost always the pro-slur side that takes an all-or-nothing position: “hey, Chris Rock says ‘nigger,’ so why can’t I?” “Some people in Scotland call each other ‘cunts’ in a friendly way, so it’s totally ok for me, who’s never been within a thousand miles of Scotland, to call people ‘cunts’ on an international forum!”

    And second, what does this have to do with anything? If you’re not claiming that the slimepit’s use of these terms falls within one of those exceptions, then what’s your point?

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    edit: LOL! I had set a rule for people that use ‘cunt’ or ‘nigger’ to trigger moderation. That’s why many of you are being caught.

    Derp. Totally ironic.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    And also, congratulations. You just gave social permission for the slimepitters to renew their obsessive attacks. No, Justin, they’re not going to get your “nuance.” They’re going to skim right over the parts where you express (tepid) disapproval (yes, it comes off as really disinterested and tepid) of their behavior. They’re gonna go right for the part where you scold us in a strawmanny way.

    Thanks. We needed that. Thanks for helping.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Ophelia needed that, too. She hasn’t been through enough and I’m sure she’d be the first to thank you for giving her just a bit more skin-thickening.

    Damn it. I hope you realize what a rotten mistake you made.

  • Justin Griffith

    What are you talking about Josh? I’m looking for a specific example of the people I hurt on this blog post.

    I specifically debunked my own points in this post. I did not think John Lennon should have written his song, it failed but his intentions were pure. I said as much about the comedians too.

    The real danger is in the power they wield when they are that popular. They are socially irresponsible to use such language.

    Using shocking language is no way to remove the shock of that language. I said this repeatedly! That was the point. So far the response that really made me feel stupid was this one:

    “I think I get what you’re saying Justin, I’ve spent a good amount of time on /b. The thing is, some number of those people on /b really are racists, homophobes, etc. If you are suggesting that all or most of what goes on in that thread at ERV is ironic bigotry rather than genuine hate of certain people, I don’t know that you’re correct in that. Really it’s impossible to tell that from blog comments. Even though I do like the free speech element, there’s just no way to tell if people are “in on the joke” or if they’re scumbags. I wouldn’t give a lot of people on the internet the benefit of the doubt that they’re not scumbags.”

    I think this is a really good point. I have a rescue complex and I’m always trying to give people the benefit of the doubt.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Josh is right. The slimepitters will not see your post in the way you see it, Justin. They’re not going to say “he’s right, we realize the harmful nature of our language, so we’ll only engage in it in appropriate settings instead of using it in the presence of or against rape victims”. No, they’re going to say “Justin said we’re right and the Pharyngula baboons are wrong! *blows raspberries*” That’s how they are. We’ve had at least a year and over 15,000 comments (between there and Pharyngula alone) to establish this.

  • julian

    Both sides claim ‘sex positive’ approaches to their environment. Both sides are supportive of reasonable, realistic, ethical, enforceable, sexual harassment policies at events. Wasn’t that the point of the year long argument that erupted at elevator-gate?

    The problem is that there is no agreement over what those solutions should be or what sex-positive even means. And so far it seems that each sides definition excludes the other. It’s fine to say we both want the same thing but while you keep it that abstract it’s meaningless. I might as well say Romney and I want the same thing (“A better, more stable America”)

  • John Morales

    Abbie is funny

    Abbie went funny, you mean.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    1. I’m not going to explain this in more detail right now Justin because I’ve been very clear in what I’ve said. I know you’re capable of understanding it. Right now you’re feeling defensive, as anyone would, but I haven’t posed difficult concepts. You might start with what I said about you enacting the very socially irresponsible conversation you claim to decry. Don’t tell me about what you meant. It ought to be clear to you that what you meant and what a reader took away are vastly different.

    2.

    I think this is a really good point. I have a rescue complex and I’m always trying to give people the benefit of the doubt.

    Then wake the fuck up and realize that when you give the benefit of the doubt to people who bully and harass YOU’RE HURTING THE VICTIMS OF THAT HARASSMENT. It HURTS. Goddamn it! You’re not stupid.

    Excessive benefit of the doubt to bullies is an active act of harming victims.

  • Rabidtreeweasel

    They call this ironic humor or parody. I do not think these words mean what they think they mean. Social commentary of the kind Colbert offers is hard to do. It is nuanced in that the person delivering the humor has to provide a parody of the privileged person without doing additional harm to the denigrated. In this way 4chan humor is a failure. It does nothing to aid the oppressed. It amuses those who would oppress and gives them fodder. It does not receive a free pass by claiming the uninitiated just don’t get it. 4chan humor does not achieve what it claims (parody, irony) and it should be pointed out as often as possible until It. Stops. Happening.

  • http://notungblog.wordpress.com/ Notung

    Justin -

    I think this is a really good point. I have a rescue complex and I’m always trying to give people the benefit of the doubt.

    Me too – but I don’t think that’s a bad thing particularly. I think there’s a greater injustice when an innocent is falsely convicted than when a guilty person gets off.

    Even if you disagree with that (and I realise that it’s controversial), I think the rational position is to suspend judgement, rather than jump to a conclusion about someone’s motivations.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Have you noticed that the only person who’s really unproblematically supporting you, Justin, is an ERV-ite? Everyone else isn’t crazy or oversensitive. Think about that.

  • John Greg

    In reality, it is a very complex issue. Which is, regretabley, something that most of the FfTB people, bloggers and commenters, do not want to acknowledge. And that complexity is one of the primary sources of difficulty, conflict, and the ongoing enmity.

    Most, though not all, of the FfTB bloggers, and most, though not all, of the FfTB blog commenters fall into the category of people who have some difficulty seeing, understanding, and accepting nuance. They seem to face real challenges in not only understanding, viscerally understanding, nuance and the many shades of gray that reality provides, but also intuitively knowing that the world and everything in it (and this most certainly applies to ERV and ERV commenters), is not black and white; right and wrong; with us or ag’in us.

    What I think of as the primary FfTB bloggers, by which I mean Stefunny Zvan, Ophelia Benson, Greg Laden, Jason Thibeault, Jen McCreight, and of course, PZ Myers, consistently, and with the strongest venom they can brew, portray ERV commenters in the most black and white, falsely dichotomous way they possibly can.

    And, for the most part, they simply overlook and ignore any and all instances of times when an ERV commenter actually agrees with them on some issue or other — for example, no ERV commenter has disagreed with the plan to create harrassment policies for TAM and all other such conventions; not one; not at any time. The ERV commenters’s disagreements were with certain, very specific and narrowly defined methods of creating and enforcing such policies. But this agreement with prospective policy plans is utterly ignored by the entire FfTB universe.

    Most of the FfTB bloggers and commenters spend a great deal of time not looking at ERV (and hence not knowing what is actually said by ERV commenters — Ophelia has even tried to imply that ERV commenters’s viewing of her blog, which we do so we can follow her claims, is somehow a bad and shameful thing, or perhaps somehow a hypocritical thing for us to do. But, how else can we make the claims we do about FfTB if we do not actually follow the blogs we criticise? And, conversely, how on Earth can the FfTB bloggers and commenters make the claims they do about ERV if they never view it?), and nonetheless painting the most vile kind of pictures of ERV, Abbie, and ERV commenters — rather like old communist China and old USSR painting the worst possible pictures of capitalism.

    The FfTB bloggers and commenters also consistently post blatant lies not only about individual ERV commenters’s posts, but about the personal characteristics, histories, and actions of individual ERV commenters.

    I suspect that this thread may get quite long. So, I will stop there for the moment, and allow some time for the FfTB folk to come in and slander me, call me names, provide me with dead porcupine wishes*, and so forth and so on. And then I will try, as I almost, though not always do, to provide rational, accurate, calmly worded, and factual argument to back up my thesis that ERV, Abbie, and ERV commenters are not, in fact, the gnu Satan.

    * A very important note, in my opinion. Some of the regular commenters at B&W have accused ERV commenters of posting rape jokes. For the record, as far as I am aware, no one at ERV has ever posted a rape joke — if I am wrong, provide a link to prove me wrong; remember, unlike almost all of the FfTB blogs, ERV / Abbie do not edit, moderate, or delete posts to revise history and create a false consensus, and proving points of past history is relatively easy, if time consuming.

    However, it is a regular, management approved, and consistent form of address to make cackhanded wishful-intent implied so-called jokes on FfTB about people anally raping themselves with dead porcupines, an act which almost certainly would result in death. So, not only do FfTB commenters regularly make rape jokes, they make homicidal rape jokes. And that is an undeniable, easily proved fact.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    In this way 4chan humor is a failure. It does nothing to aid the oppressed. It amuses those who would oppress and gives them fodder.

    Exactly. There is little discernible difference between, say, a white person telling a racist joke in an ironic way in an attempt to depower or isolate institutionalized or societal racism, and a white person telling a racist joke because they’re racist.

    That difference becomes even more meaningless when that white person (who may or may not be racist) tells racist jokes in the presence of other white people (who may or may not be racist). Plus, the latter group can claim to be doing the former; “it’s just a joke” is the most overused defense ever when it comes to being called on use of language.

  • John Morales

    Notung:

    I think there’s a greater injustice when an innocent is falsely convicted than when a guilty person gets off.

    Fairness is not your inclination, got it, but how much are you prepared to skew things?

    1:1000? 1:100000000000000000000000?

    Even if you disagree with that (and I realise that it’s controversial), I think the rational position is to suspend judgement, rather than jump to a conclusion about someone’s motivations.

    Because it’s only been a year or so, it would be jumping to conclusions to make some sort of judgement?

    (How long should it take?)

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Let the record show that, when the Penn State scandal was first revealed, Sally Strange on Pharyngula commented that xe found a joke about the rapes to be “funny”.

    There was no chastising from other commenters, only agreement. ERV is the only place I’ve seen xir taken to task for that.

  • http://blogingproject.blogspot.com/ “We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective”

    I think this is a really good point. I have a rescue complex and I’m always trying to give people the benefit of the doubt.

    Me too. It’s opened me up to lots of abuse from people who would abuse that again and again. I had to learn to be able to try to learn to consciously turn that on/off for survival. You should to not be a jerk.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    So, I will stop there for the moment, and allow some time for the FfTB folk to come in and slander me, call me names, provide me with dead porcupine wishes*, and so forth and so on.

    It wouldn’t be an ERV-ite post without a well-poisoning.

  • http://blogingproject.blogspot.com/ “We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective”

    Let the record show that, when the Penn State scandal was first revealed, Sally Strange on Pharyngula commented that xe found a joke about the rapes to be “funny”.

    There was no chastising from other commenters, only agreement. ERV is the only place I’ve seen xir taken to task for that.

    Oh fuck off.

    Thanks, Justin! Way to give these people the benefit of the doubt. Next time why not be more concerned for the people actually GETTING harassment rather than giving.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Let the record show that, when the Penn State scandal was first revealed, Sally Strange on Pharyngula commented that xe found a joke about the rapes to be “funny”.

    Do you have a link? I think I vaguely remember this conversation but not exactly.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/ Greg Laden

    OMG, soldier, grow the fuck up.

  • screechymonkey

    “raping themselves”

    Wow, you’re really straining hard for that tu quoque fallacy, aren’t you? (Hint: it’s called “consent.”)

  • http://blogingproject.blogspot.com/ “We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective”

    Thanks Justin! We all needed another dose of “lets pretend all sides are equal” and to all put on our imagination helmets and act like there’s real nuance to “I’d like to kick her in the cunt” and bullshit like this. Cause if there’s one thing we needed is more excuses that this sort of bullshit is at all acceptable.

  • ‘Tis Himself

    I thought everybody knew it was a joke to say shit like ‘back in the kitchen, make me sandwich lulz!’.

    “It’s just a joke” is the excuse bullies use when they get caught bullying. The main criteria for jokes is they be funny. If someone has to explain that what they said was a joke, that’s a good clue that it failed being funny.

  • http://notungblog.wordpress.com/ Notung

    John Morales #43 – I’m afraid I don’t understand the first part of your comment. Fairness is my inclination – or at least I try to hold as fair a view as possible. I’m not sure what the ‘skewing’ thing is about.

    As for the second part, I think one can make a judgement when there is enough evidence to justify forming that opinion. That will depend on context, of course. I was referring only to ‘giving the benefit of the doubt’, i.e. not having enough evidence to form a reliable judgement, and therefore preferring to conditionally assume good-will on their part. At least, that’s what I try to do – I do make errors of judgement from time to time.

  • Stacy

    The ERV commenters’s disagreements were with certain, very specific and narrowly defined methods of creating and enforcing such policies

    The ERV commenters disagreements were strawmen, eg Scented Nectar’s bullshit. Her nonsense was taken down in detail and at length at the time.

    But, how else can we make the claims we do about FfTB if we do not actually follow the blogs we criticise?

    You follow them all right. You’re just too stupid (in some cases) or too blinded by cognitive bias (in others) to understand them. That’s why you’re always misrepresenting them.

    …people anally raping themselves with dead porcupines

    A person can’t rape themselves. It’s an oxymoron.

    And that is an undeniable, easily proved fact

    It’s undeniable and easily proved that you don’t understand the meaning of the word “rape”.

  • julian

    Do you have a link? I think I vaguely remember this conversation but not exactly.

    I don’t have a link but I think I remember the conversation. SallyStrange was trying to explain why rape jokes are bad and should be avoided. Because she could only think of one circumstance where it wasn’t inappropriate it cast rape jokes in general in a bad light.

    That’s just what I remember. Needless to say it’s the opposite of what Concentratedwater is trying to imply. SallyStrange does not find rape funny and she does not find rape jokes funny as she’s said many many times.

    This sort of mischaacterization ERVites delight in is one more reason why I view them with such contempt.

  • Justin Griffith

    Exactly. There is little discernible difference between, say, a white person telling a racist joke in an ironic way in an attempt to depower or isolate institutionalized or societal racism, and a white person telling a racist joke because they’re racist.

    That difference becomes even more meaningless when that white person (who may or may not be racist) tells racist jokes in the presence of other white people (who may or may not be racist). Plus, the latter group can claim to be doing the former; “it’s just a joke” is the most overused defense ever when it comes to being called on use of language.

    You and I are saying the same thing. I just posted long enough to be quote mined, and admitted to being guilty of this type of sentiment at one point. I believe in redemption. If I can be reached, and this is was how I was reached… perhaps this article can be useful to others.

  • John Morales

    John Greg:

    In reality, it is a very complex issue.

    There is no issue; the slimepit is aptly named.

    Most, though not all, of the FfTB bloggers, and most, though not all, of the FfTB blog commenters fall into the category of people who have some difficulty seeing, understanding, and accepting nuance.

    No-one is fooled by pretended ironic usage.

    What I think of as the primary FfTB bloggers, by which I mean Stefunny Zvan, Ophelia Benson, Greg Laden, Jason Thibeault, Jen McCreight, and of course, PZ Myers, consistently, and with the strongest venom they can brew, portray ERV commenters in the most black and white, falsely dichotomous way they possibly can.

    You know anyone can check for themselves any time, right?

    (I note Jason has conspicuously not responded to me yet)

    The FfTB bloggers and commenters also consistently post blatant lies not only about individual ERV commenters’s posts, but about the personal characteristics, histories, and actions of individual ERV commenters.

    [...]

    So, not only do FfTB commenters regularly make rape jokes, they make homicidal rape jokes. And that is an undeniable, easily proved fact.

    Guess why PZ banned the last couple of specimens?

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    It’s undeniable and easily proved that you don’t understand the meaning of the word “rape”.

    Considering this all started because they think a woman telling a man no thanks in reply to a come-on and saying “that thing that happened, guys? Don’t do that” after the fact means she claimed she was almost raped, it’s been apparent all along that the meanings of words like “rape” in ERV-world share little to nothing with the meaning in the real world.

  • julian

    For the love of Cthullu.

    Go fuck yourself is not a rape threat. Go fuck yourself on a Sunday wearing your Service C uniform is also not rape threat.

    You are of course free to pretend it is.

    I am equally free to keep calling you a disingenuous twit for it.

  • Justin Griffith

    @ Spokesgay:

    Then wake the fuck up and realize that when you give the benefit of the doubt to people who bully and harass YOU’RE HURTING THE VICTIMS OF THAT HARASSMENT. It HURTS. Goddamn it! You’re not stupid.

    Excessive benefit of the doubt to bullies is an active act of harming victims.

    I know man. That was me coming around in some way that you were responding to. That guy was right to call me out, and I was wrong to think it was a good defense.

    I technically think it is actually ‘passive’, but the problem is just as severe. I really just hadn’t considered that person’s point of view before. Hit me like a ton of bricks.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I just posted long enough to be quote mined

    Please don’t do this, Justin. Please don’t double down. Please don’t write us off and go full-defense. You don’t like hearing what we’re saying, I know, but we’re not nutcases. And we’re not Sworn Enemies of Justin Griffith. Please don’t turn out to be that guy.

  • Stacy

    Let the record show that, when the Penn State scandal was first revealed, Sally Strange on Pharyngula commented that xe found a joke about the rapes to be “funny”

    And this is typical. Take something out of context, offer no documentation, and try to make a thing out of it.

    What’s the point of this? Concern about rape culture? Nah. The only point is to attack an enemy.

    Seriously, you folks can’t see what you’re doing?

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I technically think it is actually ‘passive’, but the problem is just as severe. I really just hadn’t considered that person’s point of view before. Hit me like a ton of bricks.

    Then for the love of Pete, consider mine too, please. You did the same thing here, right in this post. I’m not chiding you for jollies—I genuinely want you to get this, reconsider, and think more deeply about this.

  • Concentratedwater, OM
  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Stacy:

    Take something out of context, offer no documentation, and try to make a thing out of it.

    Please take my post #64 and use it to anally penetrate a porcupine.

  • John Morales

    Notung, you don’t have enough evidence to form a reliable judgement, and therefore prefer to conditionally assume good-will on their part.

    Gotcha.

    (Perhaps others do?)

    [OT]

    I’m afraid I don’t understand the first part of your comment. Fairness is my inclination – or at least I try to hold as fair a view as possible. I’m not sure what the ‘skewing’ thing is about.

    This is out of topic, but I refer to the problem of type I and type II errors; one can’t eliminate either, but you expressed a preference for one type, and beyond a certain point to minimise its likelihood further will increase the likelihood of the other type.

  • Amphigorey

    The problem with the assertion that Abbie Smith is funny is that it’s untrue on its face. She’s not funny, unless you think “Twatson” is the height of comedy.

    Fortunately for her and unfortunately for everyone else, she’s got a following who do think it’s the height of comedy, and when an adult points out that no, it’s not funny, they flip out about “bullying.”

    It’s a classic projection tactic. The slimepitters have figured out that being a bully is a bad thing, so they accuse everyone they dislike of being one. They have no idea what bullying actually entails, only that it’s bad, and therefore it must be bad people who do it. You see the same thing with racists; you point out that something is racist, and immediately they say, “Nuh uh! You’re racist for acknowledging that race exists! Bigot!”

  • julian

    I think there’s a greater injustice when an innocent is falsely convicted than when a guilty person gets off.

    Way off topic but

    No.

    This only works under circumstances where the punishment for the guilty would be so great it’s essential we are certain we have the right culprit. (For example, if the guilty were to be hung) When we’re talking about normal day to day interactions, and where the guilty will receive little more than a heart felt “Beat it”, innocent until otherwise shown is not nearly an absolute virtue.

    Throw in everything else (history, context of the argument, reputation) and it isn’t always best to give the benefit of the doubt. For example, legislation requiring doctors to read off dangers of abortion.

  • Ze Madmax

    Concentratedturdwater, OM @ #64:

    Julian: here, allow me to do Googling on your behalf:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/11/28/episode-cclxxviii-evolution-sorta/comment-page-1/#comment-197687

    A comment in direct response to this link: http://www.theonion.com/articles/nations-10yearold-boys-if-you-see-someone-raping-u,26724/

    The humor is based on the callousness of several adults who know about rapes being committed and did jack shit about it. Like any good satire, The Onion is punching upwards, against the privileged group, rather than downwards against those without privilege.

    Context can be a wonderful thing. So much for people who claim to understand nuance.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Oh jeezis, you dishonest fuck, Concentrated. The SallyStrange comment was about an Onion article titled “Nation’s 10-Year-Old Boys: ‘If You See Someone Raping Us, Please Call The Police’”.

    You’re either really fucking stupid and can’t understand the difference between making a joke out of the suffering of a rape victim and biting, disapproving satire of people who blithely ignore the rape of children, or you’re just a liar.

  • Justin Griffith

    @57, John Morales

    Guess why PZ banned the last couple of specimens?

    I don’t think rape jokes should be tolerated here either. That being said, I’ve seen Hemant Mehta make a rape joke about being in prison, as recent as last year (can’t seem to find it at the moment). He was called out in the comments section and I never saw him make the mistake again.

    I am asking for a similar learning curve here for me, my friends. It’s easy to forget that you’re not a comedian when people around you keep egging you on. That’s why I abhor the echo-chamber of yes men ‘me-toos’ that I sometimes get.

    But this is getting derailed. Back on topic please.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Since water won’t actually post it, I will.

    Sally Strange: The Onion is the only place where I’ve seen rape jokes that were actually funny.

    And yet you also didn’t post the original joke, that joke being that 10 year old boys held a press conference telling people there’s no excuse to not report them being raped, in reference to all the people with all the excuses about not reporting Sandusky.

    “Finding a rape joke funny” is one of those nuance things that you pitizens are supposed to be so good at. Making a joke about rape (such as “Ha ha, you were raped!”) is terrible. Making a joke involving rape with an important point can be funny.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Josh ninja-wizard’d me.

  • julian

    Julian: here, allow me to do Googling on your behalf:

    Way to make your implication and argument weaker, mate. Do my leg work for me why don’t you.

    If the only funny rape joke someone finds funny is one that points out the absurdity of excusing rape and people’s inclination to look the other way, guess what that says about rape jokes in general?

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    And he was ninja-wizard’d by Ze Madmax. See, this context shit is so easy we’re tripping over each other with evidence of how wrong you are, Concentratedwater. The only question I’m left with is, how the fuck did you ever get an OM with such piss-poor research and rhetorical skills?

  • http://notungblog.wordpress.com/ Notung

    John Morales-

    (Perhaps others do?)

    Yes- perhaps others do, and that’s a matter for them.

    but I refer to the problem of type I and type II errors

    Ah I see – and you make a good point. The answer is that I don’t know. The reason I feel this way is just that I felt so sick after the Troy Davis killing. There’s something so deeply wrong about an innocent person (I assumed he was, but even if he wasn’t I’d still oppose the killing) being punished for something they didn’t do.

  • Emburii

    ERVites never edit, misspeak, or say terrible or not-factual things? Is that why within two pages on Phawrongula or whatever that wiki is called that I found the statement ‘Rebecca Watson claimed she was almost raped in an elevator’?

    Or is that why every time I’ve seen an ERvite discuss harassment policies they’ve been denigrating anyone who even suggests the start of one, calling ‘witch hunt’ and so forth rather than actually discussing this ‘nuance’ they’re supposedly so good at?

    Look, I’m not really as impressed with some of the people here as I could be; Jason ‘Canuck’ and Stephanie Zvan and JT have been completely unwilling to confront their straight privilege at times. But when it comes to their quarrels with ERVites, the ERVites come off as consistently nastier every time.

  • Stacy

    Yeah, Concentratedwater, I went to the trouble of finding the joke SallyStrange was referencing, and Ze Madmax, Josh, and RahXephon got there first.

    So I return to my question: can’t you see what you’re doing?

    Are you really that stupid, or that un-self aware?

    Really?

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Oh, fuck off y’all trying to defend this:

    I’ve seen rape jokes that were actually funny.

    1) Xe found humor in rape.

    2) If this is acceptable, why is Meyers currently pissing his pants about making mild, “humorous” (kinda schoolboyish IMO) comments about Sandusky being raped in prison?

    3) “I’ve seen rape jokes…”. Plural. How many more, and what was their tone, rape hokes has xe found funny? TBH, they sound like a bit of a worrisome character to me, and I’m glad xe hasn’t infested ERV.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    ERVites never edit, misspeak, or say terrible or not-factual things?

    Ah, you see, that’s where the bait and switch comes in! Make a big to-do about being intellectually honest and willing to admit mistakes, but never actually admit to any. You get your self-righteousness and moral superiority without any of the responsibility! WHEEEEEE!

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    RahXephon:

    The only question I’m left with is, how the fuck did you ever get an OM with such piss-poor research and rhetorical skills

    That’s the perverse thing. ConcentratedWater isn’t a commenter on Pharyngula. Xe uses the OM designation to mock, cuz, you know, we take it so seriously as if it were the Nobel Prize.

  • Emburii

    Also, RahXephon, you’re assuming concentratedwater ever actually got elected to an OM instead of just tacking the letters onto their name because they thought it made them look important. It wouldn’t be the first time.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    I’ve seen rape jokes that were actually funny.

    Not what she said. Again, I can see why you didn’t actually do the work of quoting this yourself, because you’ve changed her words to a statement that’s easier for you to attack. That’s intellectual dishonesty, in case you needed an object lesson.

  • John Morales

    But this is getting derailed. Back on topic please.

    Back on topic: Have you actually perused the first thousand comments there before writing this near-encomium?

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    why is Meyers

    Priceless tell, that is. Hehehehehheehehhe

    /Bender

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/ Stephanie Zvan

    You think they don’t hate us? Just let them talk for a bit. Or go back and actually read those slimepit postings.

  • Stacy

    OK, Concentratedwater, yes, you are that stupid and that un-self aware. Got it.

    Once again, the joke in question (presumably any other jokes SallyStrange found funny approached the subject from a similar perspective):

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/nations-10yearold-boys-if-you-see-someone-raping-u,26724/

    Justin, you still want to claim we’re dealing with masters of irony and subversive humor, here?

  • Justin Griffith

    You don’t like hearing what we’re saying, I know, but we’re not nutcases. And we’re not Sworn Enemies of Justin Griffith. Please don’t turn out to be that guy.

    Wouldn’t dream of it. I seriously LIKE criticism… to a fault at times. Thank you for caring enough to say something. I avoided entering this fray because I think both sides are talking past each other.

    I genuinely believe that at least a few commenters from the slimepit are genuinely seeking the same thing as their rivals over here. There are shades of gray and nuances, and then again I have a rescue complex.

    One time a fellow soldier was cutting his arm at my house. Insensitively, I told him it was pointless and cliche to deal with depression that way. He said he wasn’t depressed, that the pain gave him really amazing rushes that made life bareable. So I told him to put my arm next to mine, and not to move it away. I put my lit cigarette where our arms met. I told him “This is dumb, and will only leave a scar. You will get nothing out of this pain.” I stared into his eyes with my calm poker face, and I realized this was even more pointless than I expected. He was flexing his fist and pumping his arm in a throbbing ‘YEAH!!!!’ manner. His eyes were wild, and he was fooling himself into thinking “this is what life is!”

    I tried three more times to show him that it was dumb. I now have 4 scars on my arms. Even worse, the next day people thought it was a cool drinking game that I invented. BACKFIRE! Did I mention I have a rescue complex?

    Sometimes my efforts don’t backfire though. Sometimes when I let a homeless person stay at my house, they DONT steal from me, etc…

    Shit, I derail my own threads, don’t I?

  • John Greg

    Josh, Official SpokesGay asks:

    “Do you have a link?”

    Yes. Here: http://phawrongula.wikia.com/wiki/Strange_Sally_Strange

    That post includes multiple links providing both source and context.

    RahXephon…. said:

    “Considering this all started because they think a woman telling a man no thanks in reply to a come-on and saying “that thing that happened, guys? Don’t do that” after the fact means she claimed she was almost raped, it’s been apparent all along that the meanings of words like “rape” in ERV-world share little to nothing with the meaning in the real world.”

    That is all factually incorrect. The schism, so to speak, between ERV and the critical thinking travesty that is FfTB began with Abbie’s post: http://scienceblogs.com/erv/2011/07/01/bad-form-rebecca-watson/ .

    It most certainly did not begin with the “guy’s don’t do that” comment from Watson. I know it is pro forma practice to accuse ERV commenters, and most other people who disagree with FfTB ideology, or Skepchick ideology, to state that it “all began with the guys don’t do that comment”, but that is false.

  • julian

    1) Xe found humor in rape.

    She found humor in people needing the obvious pointed out to them. She was not laughing at young boys getting felt up by Catholic priests. You may have been but that’s another story.

    2) If this is acceptable, why is Meyers currently pissing his pants about making mild, “humorous” (kinda schoolboyish IMO) comments about Sandusky being raped in prison?

    Because threatening and laughing at the brutal assault and violation of another human being (regardless of who that human being is) isn’t something he wants on his blog.

    Plural. How many more, and what was their tone, rape hokes has xe found funny?

    -_-

    You are a dishonest, disingenuous twit.

  • julian

    It most certainly did not begin with the “guy’s don’t do that” comment from Watson.

    Except for, of course, all the people that flipped when she made that video and accused her of misandry, demonizing men and being anti-sex.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    It most certainly did not begin with the “guy’s don’t do that” comment from Watson. I know it is pro forma practice to accuse ERV commenters, and most other people who disagree with FfTB ideology, or Skepchick ideology, to state that it “all began with the guys don’t do that comment”, but that is false.

    Since you like to split hairs, the actual post that started it only mentioned EG in passing, but the second comment on the thread went into a detailed deconstruction of Rebecca Watson’s encounter in the elevator, shamed and criticized her for her handling of it, and excused the man’s behavior, and it snowballed from there, and at no point did Abbie try to stop it, nor give any indication she wanted to.

    So yes, you have one very, very, really tiny miniscule point. You’ve pushed it back half a millimeter, and actually changed zilch. Pedant.

  • Amphigorey

    You’re right, it didn’t begin when RW said “Guys, don’t do that.” It began when people freaked the fuck out over her mild comment. Because suggesting a way for people to be more thoughtful of each other is OMG INFRINGING ON THEIR RIGHT TO GET LAID.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Just preemptively, even though it sounds dumb when anyone says it, I really meant it when I said I’m not your enemy Justin. I do admire your work and I’m not just saying that to cushion the coming, “But. . .”

    But. . .

    I avoided entering this fray because I think both sides are talking past each other.

    Please stop this “both sides.” I addressed this above. Stop the moral equivalence. One “side” is bitching-cunting-calling-women-liars/whores/prudes and defending it. The other “side” are the targets. Stop it.

    I genuinely believe that at least a few commenters from the slimepit are genuinely seeking the same thing as their rivals over here.

    Irrelevant. Why do you think these alleged pure souls are so worth it that giving oxygen to the appalling malice—which is what you’ve done whether you intended to or not—-is acceptable? Spend more time defending the targets and less time trying to salvage some good from the shit heap—if you want your friends and peers to actually believe you’re on the side of right and good.

    There are shades of gray and nuances, and then again I have a rescue complex.

    1. Get the fuck over it.

    or

    2. Learn to redirect it toward victims and away from thugs. Do I need to repeat what I said about excessively charitable readings of assholes doing damage to the people you claim are the ones you care about?

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Julian, #90:

    She was not laughing at young boys getting felt up by Catholic priests. You may have been but that’s another story.

    Oh no you fuckin’ di’nt!!??!!??!!question mark!

    I’m not saying, Julian, that you have an insatiable sexual appetite which can only be sated by grinding your crotch against schoolgirls on the subway. I would never say such a thing.

    Odd, though, that I’ve never seen a denial from you that you like to grind your crotch against schoolgirls on the subway. Hmmm.

  • Emburii

    Justin Griffith, you say we’re ‘talking past each other’. How? concentratedwater judges Myers for not letting people make hopeful comments about Sandusky being raped in prison and says that Pharyngulites are horrible people because one of them found an Onion article right on target. The other comments educate said person on what the article meant. And yet no apology is forthcoming.

    When the problem of speakers behaving badly was mentioned at conferences, the response from people like ScentedNectar wasn’t ‘What can or should we do about it?’ It was ‘you are lying. Witch hunter! Bully!’ And they continued this even when people /didn’t/ name names and didn’t immediately try to wreck people’s lives. That’s not ‘talking past’. That’s bad faith.

    Hell, I tried to engage one of these sorts of people on Greta Christina’s blog. It took them ten posts and lots of bad language and insults before they even acknowledge my request for a citation on one of their comments, and they STILL didn’t address my proposed change to a part of the event policy they hated. I’ve seen discussions with (nonERVite) MRAs have more direction and nuance than most conversations with Smith’s people.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/ Greg Laden

    Actually, while elevatorgate was certainly the moment when all this idiotic bellyaching increased in intensity by an order of magnitude, important parts of the conversation can be traced back to the discussion much earlier (June 2009) when several bloggers lead and organized by Sheril Kirshenbaum and Isis the Scientist worked to remind people of the horrors of Wartime Rape Cultures in Africa. This led a lot of MRA’s to go ballistic, because how dare we talk about women who have never had sex that was not rape and who are commonly killed by having a rifle shoved up their vagina and fired (if they are lucky, after having been raped only a few dozen times), when said MRA’s have, oh I don’t know, a poopy diaper or something.

  • GuyWithaSlimyBoot

    “but perfectly fine to say “I would kick her in the cunt” or “smelly skepchick snatch” or “Rebitchka Twatson.” – Ophelia

    The chances of far too many FTBers ever quoting any critic accurately and in a manner that is independently verifiable is zero. It never happens and is prohibited from happening. Why? Because doing so usually implodes whatever nonsense Benson/Myers/Zwan/GC or whoever is peddling. “Cunt kick” is a classic example. Repeated ad nauseam, yet not once ever quoted in context or linked to the primary source -

    http://greylining.com/2011/11/10/morphology-of-that-comment/

  • F

    Justin, I get what you’re saying. I just think you have made an error in your assessment of the slimepit.

    I used to really like ERV, but I can’t really go there any more, because I’m too likely to see something that will piss me off rather than inform me.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    I have to love the paranoia around FTB* about Abbie Smith and ERV. I mean, ERV’s “anti-FTB” activity consists of a series of open threads in which detractors of the “militant” FTB blogs hang out and vent about FTB culture. Abbie Smith herself doesn’t seem to be very involved in this. In fact, you have to go back a good seven months, to late November, to find anything Abbie Smith has written about Rebecca Watson, or FTB, or feminism – ERV itself has moved on to other topics. And ERV threads are pretty far from the only skeptical/atheist sites and writers that have an issue with FTB culture, in any event. I wonder if those who talks as if ERV is the Pit of Ultimate Evil know how paranoid they sound.

    *(Excepting this blog, Hallq, and probably a few others. I’m talking about the more “militant” blogs, of course.)

  • Emburii

    Oh, and nor has concentratedwater gone into any ‘nuance’ on WHAT precisely makes Sally Strange’s perspective inappropriate in their eyes. They don’t deconstruct the contextualizations of what Sally Strange meant. They haven’t laid out their own reasons, or taken on their critics other than to say ‘NO U’. Do they find any mention of rape tasteless? Do they think the matter should be addressed with utter solemnity by everyone, including victims? What about that Onion article is harmful and wrong?

    Even the wiki doesn’t say. Instead it goes on to somehow link this to…blood libel? Seriously? That’s your nuance? That’s people ‘speaking past each other’?

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/almostdiamonds/ Stephanie Zvan

    Oh, yes, Iamcuriousblue, Abbie has stayed so out of this. Not putting up a new top-level post doesn’t mean she’s staying out of it.

  • julian

    Thank you, Sgt. for giving Concentratedwater yet another place to misrepresent people, John Greg a new locale to spit gibberish in 2000 word increments and that tone troll we somehow picked up from Ask an Atheist. I totally needed this.

    I’m out. The rest of you have fun. Gonna go smoke my last cigar (Ave Maria) and drink a glass of gin.

  • John Morales

    [meta]

    *(Excepting this blog, Hallq, and probably a few others. I’m talking about the more “militant” blogs, of course.)

    Congratulations, Jason: you aren’t paranoid and you don’t partake of FTB culture.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/ Jason Thibeault

    I am amazed at this. Just amazed.

    If you’re honestly trying to reach your hand “across the aisle” to them, expect it to be slapped away. My own hand was.

  • Rob

    Justin, I’m sorry, but IMO you have missed the mark on this one. You aimed for a nuanced and reasoned post, but in attempting balance you have just generated a confused mess open to far to many conflicting interpretations. Words are NOT just words. The words we use to express our thoughts not only have influence over others, but they also form a feedback loop to our own beliefs, attitudes and actions. Irony and satire are useful weapons of language, but like any weapon they can cause harm to the user as well as the target. The harm is just more subtle is all…

    I have not hung out at ERV. Maybe I should, but truth to tell I have not seen anything in any post here on FTB by Abbie or any other identified ERVite that has made me want to check them out.

    Finally, John Greg said

    They seem to face real challenges in not only understanding, viscerally understanding, nuance and the many shades of gray that reality provides, but also intuitively knowing that the world and everything in it (and this most certainly applies to ERV and ERV commenters), is not black and white; right and wrong; with us or ag’in us.

    John, I’m not at all sure that you can ‘viscerally understand’ nuance. Nuance by it’s nature is a very intellectual excercise. From what I have seen of the regular FTB commentators most are quite capable of understanding and using nuance. They are also quite capable of excercising judgment and calling bullshit when they see it. There is no point in being able to see the endless shades of grey if at some point you cannot draw a line and say “no further”. Which side of the line(s) do you stand on?

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    Emburii writes:

    “Hell, I tried to engage one of these sorts of people on Greta Christina’s blog. It took them ten posts and lots of bad language and insults before they even acknowledge my request for a citation on one of their comments, and they STILL didn’t address my proposed change to a part of the event policy they hated.”

    Actually, I was that person, and I remember things a bit differently. Your first post toward me was basically *demanding* an apology, for what, I’m still not sure, and was a remarkably uncivil and flamey way to open a conversation. You are correct in that I spent the next several posts basically cursing you out, because I was rightly upset by your approach. Now I did miss the fact that you had apologized yourself at a certain point and were trying to get the conversation back on track, and for that I am sorry.

    In a later development, I was pretty heavily flamed by the “typical” FTB commentariat on another of Greta’s threads, told to be civil while others were given carte blanche to be insulting, and subsequently banned from the site entirely. After being a fan and supporter of hers for many years, I might add. So, needless to say, she’s not on my list of favorite people at the moment, and every negative thing I’ve ever thought about the atmosphere at the FTB blogs people are talking about here has been confirmed in spades.

    And, needless to say, I can’t exactly respond at this point to the thread in question you mention. If you’re interested, I’ll discuss it here, and hopefully, that wouldn’t be going too far off topic.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    Justin Thibault writes:

    “I am amazed at this. Just amazed.

    If you’re honestly trying to reach your hand “across the aisle” to them, expect it to be slapped away. My own hand was.”

    In case I missed it, when have you *ever* attempted to have civil dialogue with anybody who doesn’t agree with your views.

    That’s a serious question. If your anger toward anybody who doesn’t agree with you is a product of being attacked yourself in the past, I could at least have some sympathy.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/ Jason Thibeault

    Funny, I thought you’d read my entire archives, since you made the determination that there’s nothing on my blog but invective. There’s 1912 posts on my blog presently. Pick one. Your chances of it not including any sort of invective about someone you personally love is pretty high.

  • http://www.facebook.com/Caller.Rutee ruteekatreya

    However, I think the underlying reason for this language isn’t hatred or bigotry on the part of the ‘slimepitter’. I’ll mansplain in a bit.

    I like how you managed to think that, then type it and read it, then presumably read it at least one more time on proof reading, and still think “Yeah, I’ll go with that, I’ve got something here, print it!” That’s just beautiful ignorance, in that it is not actually beautiful or good at all. And yeah, I know you think you were being ironic, but that is what you just did.

  • Rabidtreeweasel

    Nuance?

    Shades of gray?

    This fails for the same reasons the parody/irony defense of bullying fails. IF there are poor little lambs lost among the wolves who can’t find their way out of a n epithet filled paper bag then they ate responsible for not being empathetic toward the targets of the people they are choosing to spend their time with.

    In my school days there were the bullies and then there were there enforcers. I grant that some of these enforcers were there only because they were afraid of being victimized as well. It was pretty obvious that they knew they were on the wring side and were choosing to stay there.

    Anytime one of them left the herd (it did happen) they were welcomed but we didn’t go out if our way to befriend them until they chose to grow a spine.

    Assuming some of the slime pit netizens are only waiting to be shown the light assumes they are paying attention to their conscience. If they are, it should be readily apparent to them that they are enabling harm. If they are blissfully ignorant that still doesn’t make them victims. It just makes them wrong.

    The people who actually need help are not the boorish bullies who storm the halls of the internet picking off the gimp gazelles. Their victims are the ones who actually need help.

    You stop the bully by empowering the person being denigrated. Not by giving the bully a cookie and a free pass.

  • Emburii

    Oh, for freakin-

    I didn’t ‘demand an apology for you didn’t know what’. You made a claim that people were unwilling to modify the Geek Feminist comment policy for fear of making it seem weak. I asked for a citation OR an apology for not being able to back up your truth claim (a claim you’d made before and sidestepped challenges on) if you could not substantiate it. I quoted the part I wanted you to respond to in my original post. I requoted. I referenced your post numbers and mine. I had to bring up my apology for calling you ‘mendacious’ THREE DIFFERENT TIMES, whereas you never once apologized for calling me ‘nasty’, ‘trolling’, ‘bullying’. Greta Christina called you out by name and your response was ‘everyone else is picking on me, I’m not doing anything wrong!’.

    You talk about the ‘typical FTB pattern’ when you’re a perfect counterpoint. You still want to hold up this persecution complex of yours; I ‘demanded an apology for who knows what for’ even though I REPEATEDLY quoted and referenced and you STILL haven’t bothered to try to figure it out to see where you might have gone wrong. You were ‘rightly upset’ even though you were called out by name for language that no one else was using. And now you want to ‘continue the conversation’…why? So that you can bluster all over again? So that it’ll take another ten posts for you to actually address anything I said? No thank you.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    “From what I have seen of the regular FTB commentators most are quite capable of understanding and using nuance.”

    That’s certainly not what I’ve seen. Mostly a mentality that Freethoughtblogs = feminism/social justice, and that any questioning of consensus opinion or even the atmosphere there is the equivalent of telling a woman to make a sandwich.

    I should also point out that if they’re that “on fire” about feminism, there’s a hell of a lot more positive actions they could be doing than becoming a fanatical defender of some blog.

    “They are also quite capable of excercising judgment and calling bullshit when they see it. There is no point in being able to see the endless shades of grey if at some point you cannot draw a line and say “no further”. Which side of the line(s) do you stand on?”

    And so it’s rational to assume that anything that disagrees even slightly with the consensus is “bullshit” and hence needs to be piled on and shouted down? Yeah, that’s “drawing a line” all right, but in this case, one that puts you pretty firmly on the side of fanaticism.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    So, what nuances am I missing when the ERV-ites call Jason Thibeault “Lousy Cunt”? I went over there and saw it in a comment that I’m pretty sure was made today. Is that an example of “civil discourse”, “reaching out”, or anything else? How ’bout the detailed speculations about Josh’s mental state?

    Actually, why has that thread run continuously for over a year and (from my admittedly small sample of the 10,000+ comments) seems to focus inordinately on what PZ and specific Pharyngula commenters are doing? Is this part of bridge building? Gee, I guess we are terrible, because we haven’t had a constant thread going on our side since Elevatorgate to discuss in detail what’s happening at ERV, pick out specific commenters and talk about how crazy we think they are. In fact, we rarely talk about you guys, almost always when one (or some) of you show up on our blogs. One could get the impression that you guys don’t actually want to mend any fences, but that can’t be right, right?

    Right?

  • Emburii

    …yes, because people can’t post on blogs and also do things in RL to support their position, if they’re on the Internet for any span of time of course they’re doing social justice wrong whereas your posts, Iamcuriousblue, are a righteous part of the good fight. *headdesk*

    Do you have any idea how hypocritical you come off as?

  • noodlezoop

    Justin @ 22 (not directly on-topic but important):

    Seriously, I joke around like this all the time privately. My wife talked me out of designing a sticker that says “Proud parents of a terrible kid” (subtle variation on ‘terrific kid’). She winces when I say that Zoe’s middle name is ‘accident’. Etc.

    I bet I know why she’s wincing. I strongly advise you to break yourself of this kind of thing. Zoe may hear you and understand it someday, and if she does, you will be very lucky if you get a chance to explain that “daddy was just joking” with any credibility. Think about it: this is a cousin of the same type of casual “get me a sandwich” nastiness. What, you think I secretly resent or dislike you, Zoe? Ha ha! I was just kidding! I didn’t mean it, you big silly…or did I?

    (I know you don’t mean it – but doubts like these can be hard to get rid of once they’re planted.)

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Xephon:

    In fact, we rarely talk about you guys, almost always when one (or some) of you show up on our blogs.

    Well then, it’s lucky that there haven’t been at least three posts on FfTB in the last 24 hours inviting us over for a rumble, isn’t it?

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Big congratulations, Justin. Slow clap.

    Is this what you hoped for?

  • John Morales

    [meta]

    Iamcuriousblue:

    I should also point out that if they’re [regular FTB commentators] that “on fire” about feminism, there’s a hell of a lot more positive actions they could be doing than becoming a fanatical defender of some blog.

    Such concern! Such relevance!

  • John Morales

    [meta]

    Josh, yeah, as I noted @104.

    Well then, it’s lucky that there haven’t been at least three posts on FfTB in the last 24 hours inviting us over for a rumble, isn’t it?

    Like this one, apparently.

    (And so it goes)

  • John Morales

    [as per #31]

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Well then, it’s lucky that there haven’t been at least three posts on FfTB in the last 24 hours inviting us over for a rumble, isn’t it?

    Mentioning your group or the blog you post at is “inviting [you] over for a rumble”?

    If that’s the case, are we invited to come over to “Periodic Table of Swearing” and question your repeated use of gendered and ableist slurs, and expect not to be called trolls OR banned? Will we be welcomed with open arms and have our comments thoughtfully considered?

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    @CW

    Also, will you acknowledge that you truncated SallyStrange’s comment, along with leaving out the context, so you could misrepresent the situation? If you do, I’m willing to consider you intellectually honest again and then maybe we can have a productive discussion.

    Can you do that?

  • CommanderTuvok

    Amphigorey says:

    June 23, 2012 at 10:03 pm

    The problem with the assertion that Abbie Smith is funny is that it’s untrue on its face. She’s not funny, unless you think “Twatson” is the height of comedy.

    What about my coinage – “Queen Bee”. It’s pretty much spot on.

    _________________________

    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital says:

    June 23, 2012 at 11:17 pm

    So, what nuances am I missing when the ERV-ites call Jason Thibeault “Lousy Cunt”?

    Perhaps because Jason has turned out to be a liar, and one of his lies (about who was reponsible for Ophelia’s email ‘threats’) was exposed in the brightness of the summer sun by the Slimepitters. Ophelia and Jason still pretend nobody noticed.

    __________________________

    Jason Thibeault says:

    June 23, 2012 at 10:53 pm

    I am amazed at this. Just amazed.

    Almost as amazing as your accusation over who sent those emails, eh? Turned out to be amazingly wrong, but you sure don’t want to admit it.

    If you’re honestly trying to reach your hand “across the aisle” to them, expect it to be slapped away. My own hand was.

    Erm, when was that, Jason?

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Mentioning your group or the blog you post at is “inviting [you] over for a rumble”?

    Like, duh, S.E. Hinton.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/ Jason Thibeault

    In order to correct YOUR lie about my “lie”, I in fact congratulated you on having successfully bullied Ophelia to the point where a warning that she might be shot was enough to make her quit TAM. I congratulated you for what I expected to be your champagne-popping moment of knowing that you’ve contributed to bullying one of the “bullies”.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Ugh. Commander Tuvok, can you please get mixed up in a transporter accident that puts you out of all our misery? Something like you being crossed with plant, maybe? A sort of Tuvodendron with no mouth or fingers.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/ Jason Thibeault

    And for Tuvok’s edification, as well as Iamcuriousblue, here’s what happened the last time I tried to talk to someone who preferred tribalism to rationality.

    I didn’t know a single one of you kind and generous souls until each of you, in turn, visited my blog to bitch-and-cunt and complain about censorship and whatever else.

    Justin, these are the people you’re trying to reach out to. It won’t be long til they treat you exactly the way they treat me.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Perhaps because Jason has turned out to be a liar

    And this justifies the use of a gendered slur how?

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    Emburii @112:

    For fuck’s sake, you were completely uncivil right off the bat. I’ll link to it:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/06/14/sexual-harassment-and-the-opensf-conference-code-of-conduct/#comment-76945

    My response wasn’t exactly civil either, but let’s put it in context.

    In any event, it doesn’t strike me that you want actual conversation, but just piss me off and pick up cheap “gotcha’s” along the way. If you change your mind and want to have a civil conversation, I am, of course, quite willing to do that.

    @115:

    No, actually, I’m not saying responding to people on blogs is some great blow for activism. But, way to miss my point. Do you *really* think defending the “us vs them” culture of FTB is some kind of great blow for feminism? Because the impression I get is that a lot of you really think it is, which is why so many of you all invest so much emotion in an “FTB vs evil” mentality.

    Rabidtreeweasel @111:

    Yep, asking for more nuanced, less black/white “us vs them” level of discussion is a kind of bullying.

    —Good Grief!—

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/ Jason Thibeault

    RahXephon: it doesn’t, because I’m not a liar, and even if I was, it still wouldn’t.

    Please don’t feed their delusions. I’m taking damage from all sides as it is (looking at you Emburii).

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    I’m taking damage from all sides as it is (looking at you Emburii).

    To be fair you had that coming, Jason. You did get mighty snippy about your ally status when some queers called you out. I was one of them.

    You also took a lot of shit you didn’t deserve that came in bad faith.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    RahXephon: it doesn’t, because I’m not a liar, and even if I was, it still wouldn’t.

    I know it doesn’t, Jason.

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Xephon, 122:

    If that’s the case, are we invited to come over to “Periodic Table of Swearing” and question your repeated use of gendered and ableist slurs, and expect not to be called trolls OR banned? Will we be welcomed with open arms and have our comments thoughtfully considered?

    Oh for fuck’s sake, you have obviously never been to the place of which you speak.

    I can only recall one instance of someone being called a troll (a few days ago, actually) and as for banning: you are joking, right? Whereas Meyers, Benson, Svan, Thiebault, Laden, Christina, et al ban people who put up the least bit of resistance to their views, Abbie’s policy is absolutely and proudly anti-banning.

    So yes, come on over. You’ll perhaps be surprised at the intelligence of posters over there, and the GENUINE free thought discussions which go on.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    So yes, come on over. You’ll perhaps be surprised at the intelligence of posters over there, and the GENUINE free thought discussions which go on.

    For certain values of “free thought,” mainly those that mean “efficient emetic.”

    Disgusting.

  • CommanderTuvok

    Stephanie Zvan says:

    June 23, 2012 at 10:49 pm

    Oh, yes, Iamcuriousblue, Abbie has stayed so out of this. Not putting up a new top-level post doesn’t mean she’s staying out of it.

    This coming from Black Svan (another one of our inspired nicknames – based on Stefunny’s neurotic reaction to anyone who mispells her name) who has stirred the pot far more than Abbie. Steffy fires off more threads about this debate than PZ Barnum and ReGreta combined.

  • John Morales

    [meta]

    Iamcuriousblue:

    In any event, it doesn’t strike me that you want actual conversation, but just piss me off and pick up cheap “gotcha’s” along the way. If you change your mind and want to have a civil conversation, I am, of course, quite willing to do that.

    Fundamental attribution error → high dudgeon.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/lousycanuck/ Jason Thibeault

    You also took a lot of shit you didn’t deserve that came in bad faith.

    Whatcha wanna bet that had something to do with my snippiness, though?

    Anyway. It’s amazing to watch another lie about me born. It’s the sort of thing that you can dispassionately catalogue and document when seeing someone else — like Orac saying Ophelia thinks TAM is like Nazi Germany when the actual facts say nothing like it — but when it happens to you, it’s funny how all rationality goes out the window and all you can do is boggle at the facility with which a narrative that’s contra reality can be built out of a seed event that doesn’t mean anything remotely near what was said.

    It’s not even special parsing, either. It’s not something you have to squint and turn your head sideways to catch the intended meaning. I was congratulating Blackford, Stangroom, Mayhew and the ERVites for bullying one of the bullies off the field. I didn’t say they did the threatening email. I didn’t even fucking imply it. And now, in every thread where one of these tribalistic goobers need something to club me about the head and neck with as some sort of “baboon”, as “free from thought”, they’ll trot this out and watch me go completely postal over the blatant lies.

    Like I said, Justin, this is what you’re shaking hands with. Good luck with that. I’m so over this thread.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Jason, I am SO NOT defending the bullshit lies people are telling about you. They’re fucking outrageous and they infuriate me.Let me be perfectly clear: It doesn’t matter whether you and people like me have had words about other issues. That’s completely irrelevant to the fact that those fuckers are actively, consciously lying about your position.

    FUCK. THEM.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Thanks, CW, I appreciate the invite. (By the way, did you happen to see me say this?)

    @CW

    Also, will you acknowledge that you truncated SallyStrange’s comment, along with leaving out the context, so you could misrepresent the situation? If you do, I’m willing to consider you intellectually honest again and then maybe we can have a productive discussion.

    Can you do that?

    Because I would love a response.

    Also…

    You’ll perhaps be surprised at the intelligence of posters over there

    Well, you say that, but then I see this…

    This coming from Black Svan (another one of our inspired nicknames – based on Stefunny’s neurotic reaction to anyone who mispells her name) who has stirred the pot far more than Abbie. Steffy fires off more threads about this debate than PZ Barnum and ReGreta combined.

    Is this the level of discourse that I should be expecting? Should I have sophomoric nicknames for myself made up beforehand, or do you have people for that? I’ll give you one for free: “RahXe-Poon”. So funny, yet so smart! I’m sure it’ll make whoever uses it against me instantly right by comic fiat.

  • John Morales

    [there is no meta anymore]

    CommanderTuvok:

    This coming from Black Svan (another one of our inspired nicknames – based on Stefunny’s neurotic reaction to anyone who mispells her name) who has stirred the pot far more than Abbie.

    Says much about your disposition if when you sense such a weakness you pounce boldly to exploit it.

    Clearly, you have no such weakness.

    (What’s your name, so that you can mock my feeble efforts at uninspired nicknames?)

    Steffy fires off more threads about this debate than PZ Barnum and ReGreta combined.

    And your non sequitur machine gun is firing at full rate. :)

  • Utakata

    After readng all that…

    I STILL DON’T SUPPORT ABBIE SMITH.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    John Morales: Perhaps you could stop being so snitty and actually come right out and make a point?

  • CommanderTuvok

    Drowsy Canuck:

    I was congratulating Blackford, Stangroom, Mayhew and the ERVites for bullying one of the bullies off the field. I didn’t say they did the threatening email.

    What bullying? Challenging her views is not bullying. Ophelia throws a massive fit whenever somebody disagrees with her – see her OTT reaction to Sara?

    What I would constitute bullying is the flaming of a woman who attempts to clarify an accusation (made by you Jason), only to be told that the blog where the accusation was made is not the place for her to ask. She is told she is selfish, a troll, and is told she is too young and immature to understand what the intelligent and wise FfTB posters are telling her.

  • Justin Griffith

    Justin, you still want to claim we’re dealing with masters of irony and subversive humor, here?

    I never claimed they were masters. I claimed they were possibly damaged by a false sense of mastery. I specifically made your point repeatedly. I fought through my own ‘Lenny Bruce wannabe complex’ through these steps. I thought it would be useful to convey this message to others.

    Josh, thank you for the “don’t use your energy on the aggressors” sentiment. Though I don’t agree 100% with everything you said, this was like the 4th awesome thing you hit me with in this thread. It extends beyond this argument, or even atheism in general. I waste an incredible amount of time trying to reach across the aisle. Relationships, activism, soldiers, etc…

    I didn’t mean to trigger this sort of conversation. I was naive to think that nuance was an appropriate response to a festering wound… even though such nuance worked on me personally.

    I’m sure that you can forgive my inexperience here. I am surprised that this was taken as such a fuck you to some of the people I agreed with in this post. I started blogging on December 22nd 2010. I’m a rookie (and no, that doesn’t excuse ignorance, I’m just expressing remorse). Apologies and thanks to supporters.

    Please just come back to this blog, perhaps with a red flag raised, but come back for the topics that I do stick to.

    Also, FFS will someone dispel my ‘bitchin camaro’ argument? (sorry if I missed this one already… I assumed this was a weak argument. Please link me to whatever blog/comment erases this last usage from my vocabulary.)

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Ophelia throws a massive fit whenever somebody disagrees with her

    Just curious, but given the way you’ve talked about Ophelia, Stephanie Zvan, and Josh, do you think maybe you can give people the benefit you’re asking for for a change and not characterize their writings as “overreactions”, “stirring the pot”, “neurotic”, or otherwise question their mental state? I thought you guys were 100% rationality and all about the arguments? Whether you intend it or not, your comments are patronizing and minimizing of people’s writings, particularly that of women (Rebecca, Ophelia, Jen, Stephanie), and argument-wise are, so far, content-poor.

    Maybe you should rethink that tactic, especially if accusations of sexist behavior irk you all so. Just some friendly advice.

  • John Greg

    julian at 10:51 said:

    “Thank you, Sgt. for giving Concentratedwater yet another place to misrepresent people… John Greg a new locale to spit gibberish in 2000 word increments and that tone troll we somehow picked up from Ask an Atheist. I totally needed this.

    “I’m out. The rest of you have fun. Gonna go smoke my last cigar (Ave Maria) and drink a glass of gin.”

    Good, good, good. Always the best choice for overexcited and somewhat incoherent blog commenters who cannot back up their spew with facts. Just, please, don’t post anymore death threats. Okay? Have fun getting sozzled.

    Jason Thibeault at 10:53 said:

    “If you’re honestly trying to reach your hand “across the aisle” to them, expect it to be slapped away. My own hand was.”

    Yes, your hand was indeed slapped away after you had poisoned the well of potential discourse to such a degree that no one who held even the slightest disagreement with you could have had any chance whatsoever of posting any opinion without being completely, offensively, and thorougly dismissed, ad hominemed, and deeply attacked and insulted. Jason, your mendacious deceit is nothing less than extraordinary.

    Rob at 10:56 said:

    “John, I’m not at all sure that you can ‘viscerally understand’ nuance. Nuance by it’s nature is a very intellectual excercise.”

    Rob, you very well might be right. I based that statement on a number of Psychology courses I took in the mid-90s. In those courses, we studied the concept that such mental excercises as intuitive understanding, meaning understanding something intuitively and viscerally without having it be explained to you, was something bred in the bone, so to speak (some percentage of people could; some percentage of people could not), and was not something that could be learned.

    So, as I say, I could very well be wrong about that (gosh, does anyone ever hear that from an FfTB blogger?), and if you have data to back up my wrongness, so to speak, I would be very glad to see it (cripes, yet another thing one never sees — calling you Jason — on FfTB).

    Rob also said:

    “Which side of the line(s) do you stand on?”

    Being as I hold strongly to the concept of nuance, I do not accept that there really is any such absolute thing as a line that your question presupposes. To be precise, I bounce from one side to the other, so to speak, depending on the issue and its details at hand.

    Josh, Official Spokes … etc. at 1:27 said:

    “Big congratulations, Justin. Slow clap.

    “Is this what you hoped for?”

    You really, really, really hate dialogue, dissent, disagreement, and debate, don’t you, little man / woman / person / it / them / they / item / whateverthefuck you identify as.

  • Rob

    Iamcuriousblue said:

    John Morales: Perhaps you could stop being so snitty and actually come right out and make a point?

    But John Morales was not being snitty – and he did make a point. Quite adequately in fact. Did you miss it? Maybe it was more nuanced than you are used to over at your usual haunt. I didn’t think so, but given the level of discourse from you and Tuvok…

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Justin:

    Apologies and thanks to supporters.

    Thank you for listening and hearing what people like me say. That means everything.

  • Utakata

    @Utakata

    Edit: Well that got posted prematurely…not sure why. I’ll try to finish what I was typing…

    …Nor her trolling bigoted apologist. She and them are neither intelligent, inpriring or even funny. They’re not remotely rational or reasonable. They’re certainly not skeptical…just denialists with axes to grind. I could go on…but I think others here have made better arguements to why she’s and her ilk bad news and the enemies of reason.

    Also: *reading all that…

  • Stacy

    Commander Tuvok, you just changed the subject.

    Jason has been mischaracterized as blaming the creepy emails Ophelia got on ERVITES. Jason proved he did not say that.

    So you countered by challenging his use of the term “bullying” and brought up yet another wearisome dispute.

    Nice Gish Gallup there.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    You really, really, really hate dialogue, dissent, disagreement, and debate, don’t you, little man / woman / person / it / them / they / item / whateverthefuck you identify as.

    No, I really, really, really hate you. The reason why is perfectly evident.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    Rob @148: Thanks for sharing.

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Xephon #140:

    Is this the level of discourse that I should be expecting? Should I have sophomoric nicknames for myself made up beforehand, or do you have people for that? I’ll give you one for free: “RahXe-Poon”. So funny, yet so smart! I’m sure it’ll make whoever uses it against me instantly right by comic fiat.

    Or you could stay right here, where people do shit like this all the time: look, just up this thread a little, you don’t have to go far. This is FfTB’s “Dealing with Dissenters 101″:

    Concentratedturdwater, OM

    In summary: you fail, douchewash.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rockbeyondbelief/2012/06/23/i-suppose-i-look-at-the-slimepit-differently/#comment-92488

  • John Morales

    Iamcuriousblue:

    John Morales: Perhaps you could stop being so snitty and actually come right out and make a point?

    Care to quote that which I’ve written that is pointless?

  • http://haphazardhermit.blogspot.com/ michaeld

    …. I’m not touching this with a ten meter cattle prod.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    …. I’m not touching this with a ten meter cattle prod.

    Well, the important thing is that you’ve found a way to feel superior to “both sides.”

  • John Greg

    Josh, the ever eloquent official something-or-other, said:

    “No, I really, really, really hate you. The reason why is perfectly evident.”

    Deepity, dude, deepity.

  • http://blogingproject.blogspot.com/ “We Are Ing The Matrimonial Collective”

    I don’t have a link but I think I remember the conversation. SallyStrange was trying to explain why rape jokes are bad and should be avoided. Because she could only think of one circumstance where it wasn’t inappropriate it cast rape jokes in general in a bad light.

    That’s just what I remember. Needless to say it’s the opposite of what Concentratedwater is trying to imply. SallyStrange does not find rape funny and she does not find rape jokes funny as she’s said many many times.

    This sort of mischaacterization ERVites delight in is one more reason why I view them with such contempt.

    OH! I remember it! I was there and agreed. It was George Carlin’s “Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd” bit

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    Jason Thibault @128:

    Doesn’t look so much like you got burned, so much as when somebody did try to reach across the isle, PZ promptly shot it down (see comment 18 in the linked discussion) and it went south from there. Stephanie’s calling him a “narcissistic piece of filth” didn’t exactly help matters.

    I would suggest that in the ERV vs FTB wars (and, for the record, I’m not an “ERVite”), both sides have a lot invested in hating each other.

  • CommanderTuvok

    Stacy, Jason has not proved anything of the sort – he directly linked various parties and the email “threats” to Ophelia’s decision.

    Also, since Jason raised the issue of Ophelia’s facing bullying, I have every right to ask him to state how Stangroom, Mayhew and the ERVites were responsible for Ophelia’s decision, when Ophelia herself said it was down to the emails.

    Jason’s attempt to build his case via making Ophelia look like Ingrid Bergman fron Gaslight, is not convincing, and entirely circumstancial.

  • John Morales

    Concentratedwater:

    In summary: you fail, douchewash.

    Ah, the cry of the triumphant tu quoque in all its glorious purity!

    <sniff>

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    John Greg: You couldn’t have missed it, but let me be clear. You’re a hateful scumbag. You think it’s funny to poke at people’s gender/identity preferences. You’re a disgusting bigot who relishes tormenting people with less social power than you have. That makes you contemptible.

    You’re the enemy. Yep. Black and white. Just like that. The world would be a better place without you in it. Take that back to the slimepit and hoggle over it.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Or you could stay right here, where people do shit like this all the time: look, just up this thread a little, you don’t have to go far. This is FfTB’s “Dealing with Dissenters 101″:

    Concentratedturdwater, OM

    I didn’t write that comment; am I supposed to apologize for it?

    Also, you’ve changed the subject. If ERV is supposed to contain more intelligent and more GENUINE free thought discussion, why do you lot engage in sophomoric name-calling? Because someone here did? That’s not a very good excuse; I thought you all were the better, more rational group? Shouldn’t you be above such behavior?

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    John Morales: Sure, I’ll bite:

    [meta]

    Iamcuriousblue:

    I should also point out that if they’re [regular FTB commentators] that “on fire” about feminism, there’s a hell of a lot more positive actions they could be doing than becoming a fanatical defender of some blog.

    Such concern! Such relevance!

    So, little here beyond a snotty accusation of concern trolling. Moving on -

    Iamcuriousblue:

    In any event, it doesn’t strike me that you want actual conversation, but just piss me off and pick up cheap “gotcha’s” along the way. If you change your mind and want to have a civil conversation, I am, of course, quite willing to do that.

    Fundamental attribution error → high dudgeon.

    This doesn’t even make sense.

  • Rob

    John Greg @147 12:14am

    Rob also said:

    “Which side of the line(s) do you stand on?”

    Being as I hold strongly to the concept of nuance, I do not accept that there really is any such absolute thing as a line that your question presupposes. To be precise, I bounce from one side to the other, so to speak, depending on the issue and its details at hand.

    I’ll give you some easy ones to consider, also very topical in recent posts on FTB and elsewhere. If you have been on the internet in the last month you must have put some thought to these issues – let alone having been alive for more than a decade…

    Is rape ever ok?

    Is it ever ok to wish rape on another person?

    Is it ever ok to joke about rape?

    Is it ever ok to intentionally cause harm to a rape victim by belitteling or otherwise diminishing their experience?

    Is it ok to treat women as chattels?

    Is it ok to describe women in a manner that reduces them to a commodity used for sex?

    These should all be very easy for you to answer. I can see and could make very nuanced arguments that sit in a spectrum well across the obvious line. I choose not to because to me the line is just too painfully obvious. Read many of the posts on FTB and you will find plenty of obvious lines as well as many that are not so obvious. I know I still stumble across lines I did not know where there.

    Before you, or anyone else tries to make a case for my examples having nothing to do with atheisim or skepticality, as an atheist I do not merely want a world where religion is not forced upon me and people I care about, I want a world where fairness, love, respect and understanding frame the interactions of all of us.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Also, CW, since you’ve missed it twice (I assume you have important things going on, no biggie!) I’ll post this for a third time.

    @CW

    Also, will you acknowledge that you truncated SallyStrange’s comment, along with leaving out the context, so you could misrepresent the situation? If you do, I’m willing to consider you intellectually honest again and then maybe we can have a productive discussion.

    Can you do that?

    Do you have a response?

  • iknklast

    Forgive me if any of this has been said, as I don’t have time to read all the comments tonight.

    I find this whole topic horrifyingly difficult. As a free speech advocate who believes in supporting speech I don’t like, I agree that people have the right to say these horrible, nasty, gendered words. I don’t think this is what this conversation has been about, and I’ve followed quite a bit of it here on FtB (though not on many of the other blogs, as I am time challenged, and read only what I have time for).

    The problem is that many people are telling women (of which I am one) that it isn’t OK to be offended, angry, annoyed, or hurt by these words, because they’re “ironic” or whatever. We’re being called hypersensitive. Yes, you find this funny. Many do. I don’t. Why? Because I am a woman, and because I have been subjected to many nasty jokes in a very sexualized, creepy, insulting way, intended to put me down, and make me feel inferior, or dirty, or just plain like slime that needs to float on top of a pond somewhere. I spent 10 years in therapy, in part dealing with sexual abuse, sexism, rape, and other nasty instances. This is what this is about – not whether people can say words, but whether other people have a right to find those words offensive.

    Recently you posted a cartoon someone had posted about the military. You basically compared pepole who thought that way to Fred Phelps. It’s possible some of your readers might have found that funny. Obviously, you were annoyed, perhaps even hurt, by that cartoon. After that column, I find this one particularly oblivious.

    When does a joke cease to become funny? When you are the butt of it. When you’ve heard it so many times you can no longer laugh at yourself. When it is unfair. When it is designed to denigrate or humiliate someone who is not in a priveleged position. While I agree in general about Lenny Bruce and John Lennon and their attempts to use words in a way that would help, you have to understand – these were white men – they were not on the receiving end of the ugliness. It looks different from where you’re sitting than from where I’m sitting.

    I have to stand in front of a classroom full of young adult males every single day of the week, and attempt to teach them science. Many of these men are technical students who are used to disrespecting and devaluing women with their friends, as jokes, and they routinely devalue and disrespect women who are their fellow students in the program. I have to deal with this every day, because sexualized jokes are “funny”. I have seen girls cry because of the relentlessness of the “jokes”. I have been sexually harrassed, I have been a victim of discrimination on more than one occasion, and there is no level at which sexualized jokes can possibly be “OK” because they’re “funny”. That’s the attitude that makes such things mainstream.

    Please, read Susan Douglas, Enlightened Sexism. I think maybe it would help you understand.

    Oh, and nice straw man. I don’t think Ophelia, or anyone else, is saying that you can’t use gendered epithets during consensual sex if it’s all right with both partners.

  • Stacy

    he directly linked various parties and the email “threats” to Ophelia’s decision…

    Jason did not accuse ERVites of writing the emails.

    Which you accused him of doing in comment #124:

    Almost as amazing as your accusation over who sent those emails, eh?

  • John Morales

    Iamcuriousblue:

    Such concern! Such relevance!

    So, little here beyond a snotty accusation of concern trolling.

    You’ve just provided a point, to illustrate I had no point?

    (Wise, you are!)

    Fundamental attribution error → high dudgeon.

    This doesn’t even make sense.

    Not to you, clearly. Not nuanced enough, I guess.

    Here’s some more nuance: it consists of three elements the concept of the fundamental attribution error, an implication, a characterisation.

    (Does that help?)

    I would suggest that in the ERV vs FTB wars (and, for the record, I’m not an “ERVite”), both sides have a lot invested in hating each other.

    You invite questions: under what circumstances would you suggest such? Do you care for such circumstances to arise?

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Xephon, 164:

    I didn’t write that comment; am I supposed to apologize for it?

    You’re fucking stupid. Just reread your comment 140, paying particular attention to this, and surrounding sentences:

    Well, you say that, but then I see this…

    You’re tying yourself in knots without me even lifting a finger, and thus you are boring.

    Goodbye, Cupcake.

  • Stacy

    You never did answer RahXephon’s question, CW:

    will you acknowledge that you truncated SallyStrange’s comment, along with leaving out the context, so you could misrepresent the situation?

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/ Ophelia Benson

    It was nice knowing you, Justin. Bye.

  • http://strangesally.wordpress.com/ SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant

    Let the record show that, when the Penn State scandal was first revealed, Sally Strange on Pharyngula commented that xe found a joke about the rapes to be “funny”.

    There was no chastising from other commenters, only agreement. ERV is the only place I’ve seen xir taken to task for that.

    Well done for decieving without quite outright lying. Plausible deniability, U haz it.

    Here it is. http://www.theonion.com/articles/nations-10yearold-boys-if-you-see-someone-raping-u,26724/

    One of two rape jokes I ever found funny.

    Fuck you for giving support to the people who lie about me in conversations I’m not even a part of, Justin. Haven’t read the whole thing yet. Hope you realize what huge mistake you made.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    Justin –

    Getting back to the subject of your post, you raise some interesting points about humor in part 3. One of the basics of the behavioral science around humor, is that humor often deals with taboos and anxiety-provoking subjects and areas that individuals and the larger society are conflicted about. That’s an important part of its function. And that’s why the line between something that’s extremely funny versus something that’s pretty offensive is often pretty damn thin. It’s all in the telling.

    And I think because this mode of humor deals with ambiguity and contradiction, people who put a lot of value on emotional earnestness (which a lot of highly religious and political types alike tend toward) tend to distrust humor and irony, because they distrust ambiguity and contradiction.

    Then again, another function of humor is ingroup/outgroup identification, and that’s where it can get genuinely problematic. As mentioned above, some jokes can be pretty unfunny if you’re the butt of them, and perhaps pretty funny to those doing the excluding. Deliberately telling a joke with that intent in earshot of somebody who would be the butt of such a joke is an aggressive act, obviously, and even that kind of humor out of earshot can be considered shit-talking, and that can vary from justifiable venting to bigoted depending on why you’re shit-talking.

  • John Morales

    Concentratedwater tries to condescend to RahXephon:

    You’re fucking stupid.

    Ain’t RahXephon who’s essaying a tu quoque and imagining the refutation of the original contention thereby.

    Now that is stupid.

    Goodbye, Cupcake.

    <snicker>

    (Aping baboons is your hobby, eh? :) )

  • Darren

    Jason @ #105

    If you’re honestly trying to reach your hand “across the aisle” to them, expect it to be slapped away. My own hand was.

    Stop lying to yourself, Jason. It’s embarassing.

    The first paragraph of your “invitation” to John Greg:

    Over on my post about the UK rape survivor campaign, John Greg threadjacked the entire comments thread to be about the ongoing so-called Great Rift between various factions in the skeptic and atheist blogosphere over Rebecca Watson’s trip to Ireland and into the “right to flirt” rabbithole,

    …and, from wikipedia:

    Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a rhetorical device where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say.

    This was not a genuine attempt to “reach out”. You knew that if you made a genuine attempt, you would risk the scorn of your FtB peers for being “too friendly” with us slimers. Look what’s happening now to Justin. So, instead, you pull this half-assed “I’m going to insult you then invite you over for coffee” crap.

    Well, hey. As long as it makes you feel better about yourself for having “tried” to “reach out”. But we all know you would never have the gumption to post anything like Justin has here.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    You’re fucking stupid. Just reread your comment 140, paying particular attention to this, and surrounding sentences:

    You said there were intelligent commenters engaging in genuine free thought discourse at ERV. I challenged your assertion with a quote from an ERV commenter that was made in this very thread, and I could go pull similar quotes from “Periodic Table of Swearing” right now. You haven’t responded other than to say this:

    Or you could stay right here, where people do shit like this all the time: look, just up this thread a little, you don’t have to go far.

    In other words, “you guys do it, too”. That doesn’t justify it, it’s just another tu quoque.

    You’re tying yourself in knots without me even lifting a finger, and thus you are boring.

    Goodbye, Cupcake.

    Ooh, kitten with a whip! *hiss*

  • John Morales

    Iamcuriousblue:

    And I think because this mode of humor deals with ambiguity and contradiction, people who put a lot of value on emotional earnestness (which a lot of highly religious and political types alike tend toward) tend to distrust humor and irony, because they distrust ambiguity and contradiction.

    Pompous pontification is earnest if facile.

    <snicker>

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    174, “Sally Strange, Unemployed Leecher”:

    One of two rape jokes I ever found funny.

    And the other was…?

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/ Ophelia Benson

    [unBye]

    Oh and another thing – I hope to hell you figure this out by the time Zoe is old enough to be called an ugly cunt. I hope you don’t put up a big sign in the kitchen saying you SUPPORT THE PEOPLE WHO CALL HER THAT.

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    173, Ophelia Benosn:

    It was nice knowing you, Justin. Bye.

    Nice place you got here. Shame if something bad were to happen it, know what I mean?

    Eurgh, you make me sick, Benson. Go cry wolf back on your own blog.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    174, “Sally Strange, Unemployed Leecher”

    You’re a delight. Who wouldn’t want to be nice to you?

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    Here’s some more nuance: it consists of three elements the concept of the fundamental attribution error, an implication, a characterisation.

    (Does that help?)

    Yeah, actually that does help. I had no idea that you’re using a social psychology term, and I’ll re-emphasizing that your pithy statements are not exactly self-explanatory.

    And, yes, as a matter of fact, I am saying that my reaction in the last blog argument was very much about the situation. And sure, I’ll concede that Emburii might be just as pissed now by the current one, hence, not exactly in the mood for civil discussion. That’s nothing terribly deep.

    “I would suggest that in the ERV vs FTB wars (and, for the record, I’m not an “ERVite”), both sides have a lot invested in hating each other.

    You invite questions: under what circumstances would you suggest such? Do you care for such circumstances to arise?”

    Huh? Under the circumstance that neither side seems to particularly want to stop being as inflammatory as possible?

    And that there’s a clear need for an “enemy” to unite behind. In that regard, see this call to battle by Greta Christina a few days ago:

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/06/21/why-i-have-hope/

    (So much for the rational, nuanced Greta Christina I had once liked so much.)

  • ChasCPeterson

    @#98: keep on hogglin’, dude! (The “primary source”! I love it!)(also, you don;t know what ‘morphology’ means, do you?)

    Look, to be fair, we’re not dealing here with the intellectual wing of the pitizenry. Tuvok, Water, and Greg are perhaps the most consistently spittle-flecked critics of FtB bloggers, but the exquisite subtlety and nuance that Sgt. Griffith so enjoys is more likely to be found in the work of The Justicar (coiner, as he is concerned that all should know, of the classic hilarious quip ‘Twatson’), MK Gray, and of course the immortal Welch. Abbie herself is occasionally good for a scintillating intellectual contribution as well.

    Please, please deploy the A-Team?

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Ophelia Benson: “Unbye”? Really?

    You’re fucking pathetic. Go away, you parasite.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    “Pompous pontification is earnest if facile.

    OK, now you are just being snotty. Have fun with that.

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Oh, SvendeMilo is here! Sorry: “ChasCPeterson”. I forgot for a second that you were such an enormous cock you had to change your name to dissociate yourself from your shameful past.

    Hi!

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    The Justicar (coiner, as he is concerned that all should know, of the classic hilarious quip ‘Twatson’)

    But but but, the pit is full of intelligent commenters engaging in genu-wine free thought discussion! Sexism can’t possibly exist there!

  • Darren

    @185

    Sven, what on Earth are you babbling about?

  • John Morales

    Concentratedwater:

    And the other was…?

    Have you even looked at her link and pondered it?

    Can you adumbrate the salient sardonic characteristic by which a strong feminist might appreciate it?

    (I think not)

  • http://strangesally.wordpress.com/ SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant

    The other joke was also on The Onion. Had to do with “raped environment” leading polluters on. I mentioned that in the same post you’re fauxtraged about.

    You’re so pathetic.

    Again, Justin, how does it feel to be encouraging these people?

  • John Morales

    Iamcuriousblue:

    “I would suggest that in the ERV vs FTB wars (and, for the record, I’m not an “ERVite”), both sides have a lot invested in hating each other.

    You invite questions: under what circumstances would you suggest such? Do you care for such circumstances to arise?”

    Huh? Under the circumstance that neither side seems to particularly want to stop being as inflammatory as possible?

    Well, since you still would but haven’t yet done so, the implication is that the circumstances aren’t such as will trigger the suggestion.

    (But thanks for the heads-up!)

    And that there’s a clear need for an “enemy” to unite behind. In that regard, see this call to battle by Greta Christina a few days ago:

    Heh. What makes you think I hadn’t?

    Quoth Greta: “The fact that atheism and skepticism are having all these fights now? As frustrating as it is, as upsetting as it is, it gives me hope. It gives me hope that in ten years, or twenty, or fifty, we won’t be having them, or we’ll be having them a lot less.”

    (The “enemy” is a system, not a blog, and the battle is for equality)

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    On the subject of rape jokes that one actually finds funny, I’ll throw in the rape scene in Pedro Almodovar’s “Kika”. The humor is probably only possible because the scene is so unrealistic and over-the-top. Again, one of those places where the line between being very funny and very offensive is pretty thin.

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    192, Sally Strange (drain on taxpayers): could you link to that other comment/article which provides rape lulz?

  • ChasCPeterson

    yes, I am such an enormous cock that at some point I decided to use my real name instead of the nym I had used throughout my shameful past. (I still use it occasionally when posting in unsavory corners of the blogosphere.)

    How ’bout you, ‘Concentratedwater, OM’? Still living your shameful past, I guess.

  • http://strangesally.wordpress.com/ SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant

    Please explain why you are incapable of using the google machine.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    Eurgh, you make me sick, Benson. Go cry wolf back on your own blog.

    Go play in a busy freeway. All of you.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    This is what you’ve got now, Justin. A playground for the hogglers. An open space for the slimepitters to slime around.

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Iamcuriousblue, 194:

    On the subject of rape jokes that one actually finds funny,

    What is this? I don’t even…

    Seems like we’re drawing all of the FfTB commenters’ secret rape fantasies out tonight. Come on, keep them coming (as the Madame said to her girls).

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    From a short time ago…

    Julian: here, allow me to do Googling on your behalf:

    …to now:

    192, Sally Strange (drain on taxpayers): could you link to that other comment/article which provides rape lulz?

    I guess he done gone and broke his Googler!

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    SallyStrange got to it faster than me, but I like to point out instances of hypocrisy with actual quotes. It’s like the gravy on the turkey, ya know? It makes it complete.

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Sally Strange: parasite feeding on taxpaying workers.

    No comment, I just wanted to get that straight.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    “Quoth Greta: “The fact that atheism and skepticism are having all these fights now? As frustrating as it is, as upsetting as it is, it gives me hope. It gives me hope that in ten years, or twenty, or fifty, we won’t be having them, or we’ll be having them a lot less.””

    If that’s FTB’s battle, then they’ve misfired horribly. All I see is a battle for ideological purity in skepticism, to make feminism a “litmus test” for skepticism/atheism. (And yep, I saw Greta’s other post saying that this is not what she’s trying to do, but I also saw the idiot commentariat completely miss that point.)

    And as somebody who saw the first round of the feminist sex wars go down, which was basically a battle on the part of the “radical” wing of feminism for ideological purity, those battles *don’t* go away, and we’re still having them 30 years down the road. Why? Because when your battle consists of just trying to shut up another group, that doesn’t mean that group is just going to go away. All you end up with is a movement that’s split and battling each other years later. (Hell, you can still find anarchists and Marxists hashing out 100 year-old arguments.)

    I’m not even saying this split doesn’t need to happen, because perhaps ideologically-based “skepticism” really can’t coexist with the non-ideological kind. But don’t think you can just take over the entire skeptical movement just by being warring assholes. There are plenty of us who won’t give in to that kind of intimidation, and we’re not going anywhere.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    If that’s FTB’s battle, then they’ve misfired horribly. All I see is a battle for ideological purity in skepticism, to make feminism a “litmus test” for skepticism/atheism.

    If this is what you’re seeing, I don’t think we’re watching the same channels.

  • John Greg

    Rob at 12:33 a.m. asks:

    “Is rape ever ok?

    Is it ever ok to wish rape on another person?

    Is it ever ok to joke about rape?

    Is it ever ok to intentionally cause harm to a rape victim by belitteling or otherwise diminishing their experience?

    Is it ok to treat women as chattels?

    Is it ok to describe women in a manner that reduces them to a commodity used for sex?”

    Rob, despite your explicit and angry hostility and your implicit assumptions, I am more than happy to respond to your questions. I am not sure where you are going with this, or what it has to do with my earlier posts and comments, but I am more than willing to answer your questions.

    Rob asks:

    “Is rape ever ok?”

    JG responds:

    No. Full stop, No. Never; not at all; under no circumstances; never, ever, not at all, whether it is rape of females or males, children, adults, this that or the other thing, no, not at all ever! No. I was raped when I was fourteen, several of my lovers were raped, my father was raped by his father, one of my uncles was raped by his father … no, I do not think rape is ever OK

    Rob asks:

    “Is it ever ok to wish rape on another person??”

    JG responds:

    That is such a vague and ambiguously worded quesation that it is really difficult to answer. What does “to wish rape on another person” mean?

    I am not trying to avoid your question; I am looking for clarification.

    But no, I would never “wish rape” upon another person (although that is a regular FfTB fantasy, via dead porcupines), nor would I support any such proposition. Ever.

    Rob asks:

    “Is it ever ok to joke about rape?”

    JG responds: Again, that is a much too ambiguous / unspecific question, that intentionally avoids such critical factors as as context, intent, and situation. The only honest answer is, sometimes yes no maybe could be not at all, but who knows. Without context, specifics, gender, and so on, that is an unanswerable question.

    Rob asks:

    “Is it ever ok to intentionally cause harm to a rape victim by belitteling or otherwise diminishing their experience?”

    JG responds:

    No, not in my opinion. Never. Not at all. Male or female. No.

    Rob asks:

    “Is it ok to treat women as chattels?”

    JG responds:

    You mean “chattel”, but that’s okay. No, no. It is not okay to treat any humanbeing, male or female, or any variation therein as chattel.

    “Is it ok to describe women in a manner that red JG says: uces them to a commodity used for sex?”

    JG responds: I do not understand that question.

  • Josh, Official SpokesGay

    JG: Faps.

  • Concentratedwater, OM

    Josh, blahblah:

    I, for one, am convinced by your cogent persuasive argument.

  • John Morales

    Iamcuriousblue:

    If that’s FTB’s battle, then they’ve misfired horribly. All I see is a battle for ideological purity in skepticism, to make feminism a “litmus test” for skepticism/atheism.

    It seems odd to you that a skeptical and atheist community wants members who at least don’t impede their seeking fairness?

    And as somebody who saw the first round of the feminist sex wars go down, which was basically a battle on the part of the “radical” wing of feminism for ideological purity, those battles *don’t* go away, and we’re still having them 30 years down the road. Why? Because when your battle consists of just trying to shut up another group, that doesn’t mean that group is just going to go away. All you end up with is a movement that’s split and battling each other years later.

    Your characterisation of feminists in general and FTB in specific as “just trying to shut up another group” is not congruent to my own perception; I also note that slimepitters aren’t being shut up, though some have been banned from some blogs where they pestiferate.

    I’m not even saying this split doesn’t need to happen, because perhaps ideologically-based “skepticism” really can’t coexist with the non-ideological kind.

    Skepticism is an ideology no less than is feminism, and is no more split than it.

    There are plenty of us who won’t give in to that kind of intimidation, and we’re not going anywhere.

    You came here to express your concerns, here didn’t come to you. ;)

  • http://www.bynkii.com John C. Welch

    Nice shot justin, although if you want to find out what the folks on ERV actually think, you could you know, always just bloody ask. Shocking idea, but true.

    Oh, I do have to respond to this one from Laden:

    OMG, soldier, grow the fuck up.

    Greg’s a bad man from hundreds of miles away on a keyboard. How bad? Let’s ask him. Hey greg, you still writing nastygrams to Abbie’s department head to get her fired? You still doing that? Kind of “ironic” that the same guy who is so sensitive to women that he won’t even walk on the same street as them at night if they’re alone has no problem trying to fuck one over because she doesn’t share his views.

    But it’s par for the course for that lot.

    They’ll scream, scream bloody murder about “gendered” insults, then call people dicks. Sorry, but if “cunt” is wrong, “dick” is wrong for precisely the same reason. Unless of course, by gendered insult you mean ‘female’ genders. WHich of course, is what that term ends up meaning. Hell, when Zvan, who, as anyone who even casually reads her blog knows loses her friggin’ MIND if you use any form of her first name other than ‘Stephanie’ was playing the “Dear Dick” bullshit on Dawkins, and when called on it, said “It’s just the shorter version of his first name”, which from her is STILL bullshit, because of her “MY NAME IS ONLY PRONOUNCED AND SPELLED STEPHANIE. ALL DIMINUTIVES ARE UNACCEPTABLE”.

    Funny how her own standards never apply to her or anyone on her ‘side’.

    They lost their collective minds when Franc said “IF I were a woman,I’d kick her (Ophelia) in the cunt”, yet when someone on Zvan’s site says “I wouldn’t go to TAM if it were across the street. All I’d need is extra ammo so I could take care of any of those sexist assholes who thought the wrong thing about how I felt about them”, well, that’s CLEARLY hyperbole and not to be taken seriously.

    Funny how their own standards never, ever apply to them.

    PZ gets all kinds of huffy if you even come CLOSE to misquoting him or one of his FTB buds, but funny how he’s still trying to make his completely erroneous, proven erroneous mind you, statements about NatGeo telling Abbie to censor her posts, (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/05/21/the-great-renovation/), he still can. not. admit he was wrong. Of course, at this point, he’s not mistaken, he’s now lying. But PZ’s never wrong, everyone who disagrees is just too stupid to understand his point, and NatGeo is “grandfathering” in those old posts, (what about the current one?), blah, blah, blah.

    Funny how it’s okay to lie about “the enemy”

    PZ talks all this shit about how “mansplaining” is just awful. yeah, unless it’s him telling Stef McGraw how she was wrong to feel what she felt, and what Abbie is REALLY thinking. Then it’s just PZ being right, and if those poor confused girls would only realize that PZ’s right, they’d be much happier and back on the side of “right” again.

    on. and on. and on.

    PZ’s also a raging coward. Gelatogate. Remember how he was THUNDERING from on high about FUCK HIM INTO THE GROUND, and IF YOU ARE ANY KIND OF ATHEIST YOU WILL NEVER FORGIVE HIM? Yeah. Funny how when PZ was THERE, you know, actually walking by said gelato store, the god of atheist thunder couldn’t be arsed to talk to the guy. But then, PZ’s only a bad man from a thousand miles away. “Internet Balls” describes him perfectly.

    Of course, PZ has his answer to that one too: http://www.bynkii.com/bynkiidotcomimages/pzsezgetoverit.png

    Where the cowardly hypocrites gather, they call him king.

    Oh, and if you say “FTB” like it’s some kind of hive mind, oh the howling, the howling of the grievously injured innocents. “WE ARE NOT A HIVE MIND! WE ARE INDIVIDUALS! WE DON’T ALWAYS AGREE! WE SHOULD BE JUDGED AS INDIVIDUALS! UNFAIR! UNFAAAAAAAAAIRRRRRR!”

    yet, “the slimepit”, something you also buy into. EVERYONE on the slimepit says the same things and agrees on everything the other says, sans thought or comment. The people in the slimepit aren’t individuals at all. If they were, they wouldn’t be there.

    They’re not really worth the same consideration you give “real” people, aka, people who hate them.

    On and on. Greta bans you, not for things you’ve said or done on HER site, but other places, (Rule 9 of her comment policy.) That’s like banning you from the cotillion because you were moshing at a black flag show.

    Ophelia’s even better. She bans you for not having the proper ATTITUDE about “the slimepit” – http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/about

    “Anybody who posts supportive comments at ERV is likely to be blocked from posting comments here.

    Note: this is not a genuine “rule.” It is an explanation for the ostentatiously obtuse, added in a spirit of levity. It won’t be here long.

    Note a year later: it turns out this is a genuine rule, because believe it or not, the people who were posting supportive comments at ERV then are still doing so a year later. By “supportive comments” I mean talk of kicking me in the cunt and similarly elevating discourse. The rule will be here as long as it’s needed.”

    So if you don’t ATTACK ERV, then you’ve said you want to kick her in the cunt, and therefore, are banned. Technically Justin, were you to ever say a kind word on ERV, even if it be about a *science* post, Ophelia would have to ban you. Well, she would if she were to be consistent with her own statements.

    Ponder that. Because you don’t engage in the “correct” group hate, according to her own standards and statements, you’re as guilty as if you’d said everything anyone else has ever said there.

    If you don’t hate, you’re a bad person. Hot fucking damn.

    But I think we’ve seen that holding themselves to the standards they demand of others is not something they feel the need to do.

    It’s “Fair Game”. No, really, I mean the Scientology version. Someone tries to get PZ in trouble/fired, OH MY GOD, WHAT KIND OF HORRIBLE PERSON WOULD DO THAT. Remember “crackergate”? Yeah.

    Laden tries to get Abbie in trouble/fired/kicked off NatGeo? Whatever, the fucking gender traitor had it coming. She was asking for it.

    If you don’t hate the slimepit, into the bog you go, right? Just like if you weren’t really a babykilling facist who is okay with torture, you wouldn’t be in the military. (I loved that one when I was in the USAF during Persian Gulf I. “Really? I’m a babykiller? Well, I suppose, I did get a nice does of RF in the nads that one time…but I mean, I’m not even there. I’m here, in NORTH DAKOTA…OHHHhhh…if you’re in the MILITARY you’re a babykiller. Okay. Sure, whatever you say sport.)

    Same thing. You’re a part of A so therefore you’re B. HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT BECAUSE I’M A PART OF C THEREFORE I’M D? THAT’S COMPLETELY UNFAIR.

    Ophelia rages, rages I tell you because someone DARED publish an email of hers without her explicit okay, and that sir, that is IMPERMISSIBLE.

    Unless she does it because someone called her a bad name. Then it’s okay. “I get email…” ring a bell? When it’s someone of FTB doing it, well, that’s completely different, and if you disagree, you’re a misogynist racist scumbag.

    I should probably feel bad you and a few others on FTB get lumped in with them, but then, if it REALLY bothered you…

    Yeah. Sucks when people do that, doesn’t it.

    And you know what? I no longer care. So what if FTB gets a name as a pack of raging cowardly loons as a group. Enough people in FTB has seen fit to do that to any and all who “cross them”, I can’t really bring myself to feel that bad about FTB’s self-inflicted collateral damage. Hell man, even you play. Where the fuck is the scolding for the jackanapes here? I mean in public, not on some bullshit backchannel. Where’s the post about how it’s also wrong when commenters HERE do it, that “oh it’s just the SLIMEPIT” isn’t in fact, an excuse, or “tongue in cheek” is not a get out of jail free card.

    Don’t worry about answering that one, I already know. it’s not your MOS right? You’re “not responsible for what others write”, you can “only manage your own site”.

    In the last year, everything, every. single. thing. the yobs here at FTB scream bloody murder over, practically bleed from the EYEBALLS over, they’ve done to people who don’t dance to their fucking tune.

    But as long as it’s targeted at “the slimepit”, well, it’s okay. As long as its people trying to fuck with *Abbie’s* livliehood, it’s okay. As long as it’s HER site they’re trying to shut down, well, that’s fine.

    After all, she runs the slimepit, right? Fucking gender traitor, she asked for it.

    (if you actually want to talk about this, without all the screaming gibbons, you’ve my email address, by all means use it. Or pop in over at ERV. FTB just isn’t a good place for people unwilling to agree with bullshit just because the crowd demands it.)

  • AnyBeth

    Justin: Words are not just words. Words have meaning. Words reflect thoughts and both can lead to actions (one’s own or that of others). I’m not sure anything intelligible is “just words”, so you’re best not treating any like that. And, yeah, don’t make remarks that disparage your daughter, even in jest — you’ll likely have no idea what stuck until years later.

    Have you read “An Open Letter to The Tone Troll“? In this burning hotel of a situation, you here aren’t being the tone troll coming in to talk about the decor, no, you’re grabbing fleeing people to tell them fire isn’t all bad, that some of the inferno may even be in the fireplace. Furthermore, you support certain suspected or known arsonists as well as people who fan flames because they do some good things, too (which you consider entirely relevant here). Love the arsonist, not the arson. And why won’t someone fleeing the blaze answer you as to why lighters are wrong? You demand satisfaction!

    How ever you meant it, this is basically how you came across to me here. Apparently also others, both the ones who know they’re negatively affected by the flames as well as the pyromanics basking in the glory they see. No, it’s not the time and place to discuss whether fire is ok (and, if so, when) while the the building burns. A bunch of people have been fighting these flames for 5 weeks now. Others see the distruction and it reminds them of their burns, their scars. We are raw. And here you come bearing kindling because that’s how you learned about fire. “Naive”, oh yes, incredibly naive.

    I bear some suggestions. One, apologize in a top-level post or at least note and link an apology in the comments to the top of this entry. Two, show what you “get” (in addition to “people shouldn’t use gendered slurs”, maybe you agree that (anti-)harassment policies are a good thing, or that harassment (and little being done about it) in some quarters is a real problem rather than the problem being talking about said state of affairs, for instance). Three, ask what you can do to help. Four, rather than insisting that people here answer you on the “nuances” and such questions you have, mention your questions in general while making clear you’re begging resources because you seek to ameliorate your ignorance that may hurt people. (e.g., “I think slurs are bad but I’m unsure if the words in the slurs are always bad. I recognize my need to learn but I don’t want to further burden people who are worn by the recent debacle to which my questions are at best tangential. What are some good resources to help me?”) Finally, a possible 2.5, you may want to disavow yourself from the “pyromanics”. I’m not saying you need to say you are against this person or that one, but that you’re entirely against people doing certain things. No need to mention if you respect said people for other things they do or have done, that being largely irrelevent on this subject.

    If you didn’t manage to catch it, I think you’re best off recognizing that few of the people here that you (say you) agree with are going to want to answer about bitchin’ cars. The only answer I can give right now is purely practical: if the term is considered problematic and there’s another you can substitute without loss, it’s better to do that. The idea isn’t to police words, it’s to change culture. If you’re not sure about a use of a word that’s generally a slur and you want to change culture (to where women or various minorities aren’t considered lesser beings), consider it tainted. If you’re sure it isn’t tainted and someone (especially one in the group it’s against) says it is, take a long think on it.

    Yeah, you fell. I’m just someone commenting a book… but I hope I gave you a different idea of exactly how it was you fell along with some decent suggestions how you might redeem yourself to stand even taller than you did before.

  • Stacy

    @ConcentratedWater #195

    Sally Strange (drain on taxpayers): could you link to that other comment/article which provides rape lulz?

    Concentratedwater, that was described/linked for you at comments #69, 70, and 72. I also mentioned it in comment 78.

    Here’s the link again:

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/nations-10yearold-boys-if-you-see-someone-raping-u,26724/

    Ze Madmax described the joke to you thusly:

    The humor is based on the callousness of several adults who know about rapes being committed and did jack shit about it. Like any good satire, The Onion is punching upwards, against the privileged group, rather than downwards against those without privilege

    All these comments were addressed to you, Concentratedwater.

    Somehow you missed them.

    And you still haven’t answered RahXephon’s question, posed numerous times:

    will you acknowledge that you truncated SallyStrange’s comment, along with leaving out the context, so you could misrepresent the situation?

  • http://lordsetar.wordpress.com Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the Pharyngula Star Chamber

    Dude, seriously? “Irony”? Natalie’s written about this already, you really should go read that (or re-read it if you read it already).

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Interesting link Setar. Thanks. Reading it now.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    “Skepticism is an ideology no less than is feminism, and is no more split than it.”

    No John, skepticism is not an ideology, or at least should not be, any more than science is not an ideology. It should be about examining questions in the light of the best empirical evidence, regardless of what political ideology you might happen to subscribe to. As Greta Christina wrote so well (and so much of her commentariat misinterpreted), yes, skepticism has direct relevance to political issues, but does not demands any particular stance on an issue as a “litmus test”, much less adherence to a specific political ideology, and it’s about bloody time you feminist skeptics stopped behaving as if it does.

  • Stacy

    skepticism has direct relevance to political issues

    Yes it does.

    …but does not demands any particular stance on an issue as a “litmus test”

    Cute strawman.

    Enjoy your new friends, Justin.

  • Shplane

    but does not demands any particular stance on an issue as a “litmus test”

    So, if someone were to say “I believe that the sun revolves around the earth”, you would not find this in any way indicative of whether or not they are a skeptic?

  • http://strangesally.wordpress.com/ SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant

    See now this was funny. In response to this, from iamcuriousblue:

    On the subject of rape jokes that one actually finds funny, I’ll throw in the rape scene in Pedro Almodovar’s “Kika”. The humor is probably only possible because the scene is so unrealistic and over-the-top. Again, one of those places where the line between being very funny and very offensive is pretty thin.

    Concentratedwater, OM has this to say.

    Seems like we’re drawing all of the FfTB commenters’ secret rape fantasies out tonight. Come on, keep them coming (as the Madame said to her girls).

    So, Concentratedwater, the guy who goes out of his way to bring me up here (and I can only assume elsewhere too) and basically make false statements about me as being a person who approves of rape jokes, now essentially taunts me, and iamcuriousblue as well, for having rape fantasies. I mean, this doesn’t make very much sense, except that I guess he thinks having a fantasy, consensual sex themed around role playing, dominance, power, submission, etc., is the same thing as being treated like a disposable object and having your bodily autonomy violated. He seems to think it’s a bad thing, having a rape fantasy.

    As far as iamcuriousblue goes, well, he’s a bit of an oddball on FTB. For the most part. He has some pretty harsh things to say about it.

    About Lousy Canuck:

    the abusive rhetoric that’s self-evident there to anybody who cares to go over and give it a read

    I love that it’s self-evident! I mean, “self-evident.” Very bad form!

    And about FTB in general:

    I’d say much of what gets dished out by FTB goes way beyond “harsh criticism”, that people on these blogs are quite guilty of using intimidation tactics of their own, and bear their share of responsibility for the kind of inflation of rhetoric that leads up to things like death threats.

    He then saw fit to inform me about the difference between feminism and “internet” feminism.”

    BTW, Sally, where I’m coming from “misogyny” is a term with real meaning – not just “disagrees with internet feminism”.

    This was shortly before Ophelia Benson banned him. I asked this question then but he didn’t get a chance to answer, so now is my lucky day!


    What’s the difference between feminism and internet feminism?

    Now’s your chance, iamcuriousblue.

    So, I dunno, Justin. I mean, do you not see the misogyny in the comments these guys are making to me? I’ve never interacted with Concentratedwater before–and he’s hounding me, spreading deceitful lies about me, and I really have no history with him. That’s kinda creepy. And these remarks about rape fantasies? I haven’t seen the scene that blue is talking about. I am skeptical but then I have seen Pedro Almodovar films, and knowing it’s Almodovar raises the probability. In any case, ew. Really. OK, blue is just really opposed to making the conversation about feminism (totes not sexist, no never) but Concentratedwater is just weird and creepy.

    What will it take before you believe that these men, at least, are perfectly sincere. I guess you haven’t noticed, Justin, not being on the receiving end of sexism and all, how there’s a well-established pattern where guys who make sexist jokes like to make sexist jokes because they are, in fact, sexist.

    You said a couple of times that this is hard to understand, but I don’t think it is.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    Shplane: Cute outlier. I mean on areas that are matters of *opinion*, like many political ideas are. I’d refer back to Greta Christina’s essay, which pretty much nails it. Too bad the audience she’s trying to play to clearly doesn’t get it.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue
  • John Morales

    Iamcuriousblue:

    No John, skepticism is not an ideology, or at least should not be, any more than science is not an ideology. It should be about examining questions in the light of the best empirical evidence, regardless of what political ideology you might happen to subscribe to.

    You really don’t see what I’ve emphasised above as an ideology?

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    Well, that’s a funny comment thread.

    Ophelia’s and Josh’s unveiled threats are particularily delicious.

    Just thought I’d come and say hi (to Justin, whom I really admire for his hard work in the military.)

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    What fucking threats? It’s a threat now to warn Justin that if he posts namby-pamby ‘both sides’ bullshit like this, he’s going to attract the exact same kind of scum as found at ERV?

    Funny thing too, the warnings appear to be bearing out. Some real turds have been bobbing up out of the pipes.

    I suppose telling someone if they step in front of a moving car, they will probably be hit is a ‘threat’ too?

    Fuck you, Giordana, for even comparing what Josh and Ophelia have said to ACTUAL threats.

  • http://strangesally.wordpress.com/ SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant

    Ahh, I have a working keyboard now. That’s much better.

    I have a long comment with links in moderation, but in the meantime:

    Sally Strange (drain on taxpayers): could you link to that other comment/article which provides rape lulz?

    Concentratedwater, that was described/linked for you at comments #69, 70, and 72. I also mentioned it in comment 78.

    CW is referring to the other rape joke. I said that there were two. Now I can actually look it up. Oh looky, I googled ["raped environment" polluters] and it’s the first hit.

    Raped Environment Led Polluters On, Defense Attorneys Argue

    Oh, incidentally, CW has been insulting me for being on government benefits. Class prejudice much? I’m not even getting any benefits right now. Have in the past. I’ve also paid taxes in the past. And will continue to do so. Taxpayers fund these programs, so taxpayers can take advantage of them. Your contempt for me and anyone who uses those programs is definitely noted. Presence of bigotry against one group raises the probability of bigotry against others. In my experience. I don’t know if there’s a study on that pattern yet.

    There’s a reason that the word “misogynist” gets flung around a lot in these conversations, and the reason is not a feminist conspiracy to undermine the noble rational freethinkers who can see the truth about how dogmatic feminism is, and how unlike skepticism it is, because feminism (ah crap this one is going into moderation too, isn’t it) never concerns itself with epistemology.

  • Rob

    John Greg @ 206

    First some housekeeping. I can assure you that I was (and am) neither angry or hostile toward you. Neither did I make any assumptions. You stated that you could not imagine ever drawing a line that you could not jump from side to side of. I simply posed a number of questions that I felt provided a series of attitude litmus tests. That you interpret that as angry hostility and assumption making I actually find more revealing than your answers.

    Let me say how sorry I am that you have experienced the appalling crime of rape both directly and through people important to you. You have my sympathy.

    You have also demonstrated that there is a line you cannot cross.

    “Is rape ever ok?”

    JG responds:

    No. Full stop, No. Never; not at all; under no circumstances; never, ever, not at all, whether it is rape of females or males, children, adults, this that or the other thing, no, not at all ever! No. I was raped when I was fourteen, several of my lovers were raped, my father was raped by his father, one of my uncles was raped by his father … no, I do not think rape is ever OK

    I’m not giving you clarification. That was a clear question and you are fading and attempting to weasel out from answering it.

    “Is it ever ok to wish rape on another person??”

    JG responds:

    That is such a vague and ambiguously worded quesation that it is really difficult to answer. What does “to wish rape on another person” mean?

    I am not trying to avoid your question; I am looking for clarification.

    John I have not read every instance of the ‘dead porcupine’ reference for sure, but the ones I have have been along the lines of ‘Go stick a dead porcupine up your arse’ rather than ‘I hope that someone sticks a dead porcupine up your arse’. That has invariably been after rape apologists have repeatedly been told to go away by rape survivors. I would not attempt to condone the dead porcupine as rape threat, but as a dismissive stick it up your arse – when at the end of your tether, fine. However, that is a second line you will not cross.

    But no, I would never “wish rape” upon another person (although that is a regular FfTB fantasy, via dead porcupines), nor would I support any such proposition. Ever.

    Oh come on John. You really are not trying to think rationally or deeply at all. At this point I’m not feeling angry or hostile, just disappointed and slightly contemptuous.

    “Is it ever ok to joke about rape?”

    JG responds: Again, that is a much too ambiguous / unspecific question, that intentionally avoids such critical factors as as context, intent, and situation. The only honest answer is, sometimes yes no maybe could be not at all, but who knows. Without context, specifics, gender, and so on, that is an unanswerable question.

    Good, another line you will not cross.

    “Is it ever ok to intentionally cause harm to a rape victim by belitteling or otherwise diminishing their experience?”

    JG responds:

    No, not in my opinion. Never. Not at all. Male or female. No.

    Actually no. I was using the plural. Another line you cannot cross.

    “Is it ok to treat women as chattels?”

    JG responds:

    You mean “chattel”, but that’s okay. No, no. It is not okay to treat any humanbeing, male or female, or any variation therein as chattel.

    You are being intentionally thick.

    “Is it ok to describe women in a manner that reduces them to a commodity used for sex?”

    JG responds: I do not understand that question.

    So, John, despite saying you could not imagine a line you could not jump from side to side of there are in fact many such lines. Try bringing both nuance and judgement to the next similar discussion. I’m going to catch up on the comments then I’m off to bed.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    Fuck you, Giordana, for even comparing what Josh and Ophelia have said to ACTUAL threats.

    Well, that was nice.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/06/21/schroedingers-threat/

    It was nice knowing you, Justin. Bye.

    Doesn’t sound like a threat or intimidation or anything at all…

    This is what you’ve got now, Justin. A playground for the hogglers. An open space for the slimepitters to slime around.

    Yep, everything is fine. Have a great day, FTB!

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Giordana: You’re a disingenuous sack of shit. Those aren’t threats. Josh and Ophelia sure as fuck didn’t invite you and your little chums to shit all over the place.

    You’re gonna tell me Justin should have felt ‘threatened’ by that? I’d say it looks mighty idiotic, but I think this is too charitable. I think you’re deliberately trying to misinterpret these entirely valid (after all, you’re here, aren’t you?) warnings so you can make the usual ‘Thuggish’/’echo chamber’ comments.

  • http://strangesally.wordpress.com/ SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant

    Cargo cult social justice.

  • http://lordsetar.wordpress.com Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the Pharyngula Star Chamber

    Iamcuriousblue #214:

    No John, skepticism is not an ideology, or at least should not be, any more than science is not an ideology. It should be about examining questions in the light of the best empirical evidence, regardless of what political ideology you might happen to subscribe to.

    Uhh. Actually, that’s not true. Science is the method of examining questions in light of the best empirical evidence. Skepticism, or empiricism, is the ideological standpoint that science is the best method we have to model reality.

    “-ism” is the key suffix here, because that is meant to indicate an ideology. Which is obviously not to say that some ideologies can’t be better than others (I hate how “ideology!” is brought up to silence anyone who starts pointing out that science-based policy is decidedly leftist), and considering that the computers and Internet we’re using were built with science, well…

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    Keep it classy Coyote. You’re making my point for me (that FTB commenters are WAY worse than any ERVite [at the moment. We did have a few nasty ones, but they're mostly gone now]).

    I will have to check a bit on it, but it seems you’re the one who has launched the most personal insults on this whole thread. And in only two comments, nonetheless.

    Now, as for the meat of the message, yes, I consider these comments to be veiled threats toward Justin of being ostracized, or even more so, killfiled, by Ophelia and Josh, for the audacity of stating that maybe the Slimepit has a bit more to offer than what your general narrative seems to imply.

    Sue me.

  • http://strangesally.wordpress.com/ SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant

    ostracized, or even more so, killfiled

    How terrible.

  • dogeared, spotted and foxed

    Justin, first off go to the link that Setár has kindly provided @212. Read the whole thing, no skimming.

    Secondly, oh geez, I’m embarrassed for you even knowing that you might not be for a few years. I remember this stage. It was different for me, I’m a woman. I didn’t have the luxury of defining what was acceptable, I could only agree with it. Sure, guys say things but they don’t mean anything by it. It’s a joke. I can take it. I’m not some delicate butterfly who is going to go ballistic every time someone yells “Nice ass!” at me from a moving car. Just ignore it and move on…yada, yada, yada. I’m sure you’ve heard it all before.

    At one point I realized that I really didn’t like people screaming things at me from cars, or rubbing up against me on the subway or calling me a bitch when their stupid pick-up line didn’t work. And I started to wonder why I had to be the strong one. Why did I have to work so hard to “brush it off” when they couldn’t handle the much easier task of not doing it in the first place? Why was I expected to put up with this childish abuse that didn’t gain them anything except my discomfort?

    That’s when I realized how much I had internalized, how much I had permitted in order to maintain the status quo and how many other women I tossed under the bus to maintain my own ranking within a system that really didn’t benefit me at all.

    I got angry for a while. I’m not now. Now I’m just sort of exhausted, especially when I look at how far we have to go. I’m disappointed that you’re doing the easy thing, trying to keep your place within the status quo. A little disgusted that you’ve framed it as some humanitarian gesture. But not particularly angry or surprised.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Now, as for the meat of the message, yes, I consider these comments to be veiled threats toward Justin of being ostracized, or even more so, killfiled, by Ophelia and Josh, for the audacity of stating that maybe the Slimepit has a bit more to offer than what your general narrative seems to imply.

    Oh… so they’re ‘threatening’ to ostracize or…. GASP… KILLFILE Justin. Such brutal inhumanity! Oh the horror! It is to shudder.

    But seriously. That’s not even what they were doing. They were warning him of the inevitable happening. What happened at JT’s little blog-toilet, for example. Same thing’s happening here. Slimepit crew is oozing in. After all, asshole, you’re here, aren’t you?

    Maybe what they said could be interpreted as ‘threats’ by the naiive and/or stupid, but that’s not what you’re doing. It’s like that fucking kid in my elementary school years back who’d keep trying to wipe shit on the back of my head or shirt… when I turn around and shove him, he goes “WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH HE HIT ME!” and starts sniffling about it.

    That’s what you’re doing. You’re that stupid fucking kid. It’s even more disgusting when a grown adult attempts it.

  • http://strangesally.wordpress.com/ SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant

    Ophelia’s and Josh’s unveiled threats are particularily delicious.

    I think you are being totally honest here.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    Sally (hello, it’s been a while!)

    I’d say, yes, quite terrible for a fairly recent new addition to FTB’s circle. People like to feel welcomed (as many of you so oftenly point out), and Justin’s OP doesn’t deserve that kind of shit. Can’t you just go to the Slimepit and read what is actually being said there? Suspend belief for a while and actually READ what’s being said?

    I personaly gave up on slurs and insults in general (or I just switch letters, I find it funny) for almost a year, but I’ll grant there are still people using bad words from time to time, so if it’s a trigger for you, you should avoid it. But it’s not a pit of gender slurs and rape jokes as has been depicted by commenters here.

    Believe it or not, we are usualy nice people. In fact, we are people, not “sacks of shit”, as Coyote would put it.

    Bridge-building is not easy.

  • dogeared, spotted and foxed

    Phil Giordana, I have been there. It was unpleasant. Nothing in these comments makes me hopeful that things would be different.

  • John Morales

    dogeared wrote wise words.

  • http://strangesally.wordpress.com/ SallyStrange: bottom-feeding, work-shy peasant

    Why should I go to the Slimepit when the Slimepit can be relied on to come to me, bearing glad tidings of my love affair with rape jokes?

  • John Morales

    Phil Giordana:

    Believe it or not, we are usualy nice people. In fact, we are people, not “sacks of shit”, as Coyote would put it.

    Literally, you’re people. Figuratively, you’re sacks of shit.

    Bridge-building is not easy.

    You are not worthy of having a bridge built to your cesspool.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    In fact, we are people, not “sacks of shit”, as Coyote would put it.

    Yes. Shitty, shitty fucking people.

    I’d say, yes, quite terrible for a fairly recent new addition to FTB’s circle. People like to feel welcomed (as many of you so oftenly point out), and Justin’s OP doesn’t deserve that kind of shit. Can’t you just go to the Slimepit and read what is actually being said there? Suspend belief for a while and actually READ what’s being said?

    No thanks. Last time I was there all I could see was Victor Ivanoff Hogglin’ away. That poor man must have some pretty serious blisters by now.

    To Justin’s credit, from what I’ve seen he’s actually been attempting to listen instead of completely doubling down.

    I personaly gave up on slurs and insults in general (or I just switch letters, I find it funny) for almost a year, but I’ll grant there are still people using bad words from time to time, so if it’s a trigger for you, you should avoid it. But it’s not a pit of gender slurs and rape jokes as has been depicted by commenters here.

    If you really think our problem is with ‘naughty language’, then you are at least twice as stupid as I thought. But that doesn’t really surprise me.

    This is, after all, the same stupid fuckwit who insisted that Josh and Ophelia were ‘threatening’ Justin. (Funny, Justin seemed pretty thankful in some places for Josh’s ‘threats’. But maybe I missed something).

    In closing, go piss up a rope you stupid fucker.

    PS: *HAAAWWWWWKKKK* *spit!*

  • http://lordsetar.wordpress.com Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the Pharyngula Star Chamber

    Iamcuriousblue #214, continued since I got busy with work:

    …yes, skepticism has direct relevance to political issues, but does not demands any particular stance on an issue as a “litmus test”, much less adherence to a specific political ideology, and it’s about bloody time you feminist skeptics stopped behaving as if it does.

    Skepticism does not demand adherence to political ideologies that are based in reality?

  • http://lordsetar.wordpress.com Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the Pharyngula Star Chamber

    Phil Giordana #233:

    Bridge-building is not easy.

    Digging in and demanding that the people on the other side build the entire bridge for you because you’re too out-of-shape to hold a shovel is not “bridge-building” — at least, not to anyone who isn’t a follower of Ayn Rand.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    Sally: you should go so maybe you can make an opinion for yourself instead of relying on hearsay.

    John: “not worthy”. Dully noted. I love this “community”…

    Coyote: are you twelve?

    My problem with SOME FTBers and commenters is doublethink/double standard when it comes to some topics. I know some commenters here that I like (even one I know IRL). But there seems to be a lack of skepticism when certain issues are discussed.

    In (what I think was) my first post here, I linked to a post by Greta about Shrodinger’s Threat, to illustrate my point. Do you think I literally think Ophelia or Josh were threatening Justin? I wasn’t. But it looked a lot of a hell like it, just as has been pointed before, in a “Mafia Style” “Nice house you have there, would be a shame if…” kind of way.

    Agree or disagree, but at least let’s try to reason about our disagreements. And I have to admit I am prone to get triggered easily by Ophelia et all these days. Why? Because there’s much bullshit and craziness in her commentariat. Not her fault, I would say, except she does edit and censor, and thus is responsible for what she decides to leave in her comment section.

    You guys/gals/other are exactly the same when it comes to ERVites. We are mirrors.

  • Michael Kingsford Gray

    Test post.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    12 or not, Giordana, thanks for showing me to be correct:

    In (what I think was) my first post here, I linked to a post by Greta about Shrodinger’s Threat, to illustrate my point. Do you think I literally think Ophelia or Josh were threatening Justin? I wasn’t. But it looked a lot of a hell like it, just as has been pointed before, in a “Mafia Style” “Nice house you have there, would be a shame if…” kind of way

    Complain all you want about my communication style, you’re doing exactly what I said you were doing.

    Agree or disagree, but at least let’s try to reason about our disagreements. And I have to admit I am prone to get triggered easily by Ophelia et all these days. Why? Because there’s much bullshit and craziness in her commentariat. Not her fault, I would say, except she does edit and censor, and thus is responsible for what she decides to leave in her comment section.

    I don’t think implying that what Josh and Ophelia said were ‘threats’ is very reasonable, particularly the way you’ve been doing it.

    Shove it back up your ass with the rest of the feces.

    PS: Eat shit.

  • Michael Kingsford Gray

    Justin. Are you going to let this foul and anonymous libel stand against a person who uses their real name[1]?

    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)[sic]

    Giordana: You’re a disingenuous sack of shit. Those aren’t threats. Josh and Ophelia sure as fuck didn’t invite you and your little chums to shit all over the place.

    I understand that there is a place for robust discussion, but I consider this libel to be beyond the pale.

    If you do not condemn it, and permit it to stand as is, then I shall be forced to assume that you are of a similar intent, which I truly trust you are not.

    ____________________

    [1] Now a federal offense in the USA

  • Smee

    Stephanie Zvan says:

    Oh, yes, Iamcuriousblue, Abbie has stayed so out of this. Not putting up a new top-level post doesn’t mean she’s staying out of it.

    To which Abbie apologised and agreed she’d stepped over the line, and Jen accepted. Doesn’t that deflate your point? Didn’t you know about the apology given your access to the backchannel?

  • http://notungblog.wordpress.com/ Notung

    I’ll just say this: the ‘slimepit’ is a diverse (in every sense) group of people with different approaches to the problem, and in many cases different beliefs. People have come and gone, the kind of discourse has changed from time to time, and I do feel that it has improved recently. Reading through some of the comments here, it really does look as if its reputation precedes it.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Michael Kingsford Gray: Good thing I’m not in the USA, dumbshit!

    But seriously, sue me over a blog comment. Go ahead. Get your lawyers out, you litigous sock-sniffer.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    Shove it back up your ass with the rest of the feces.

    PS: Eat shit.

    Yep, probably 12…

  • John Morales

    PhilG:

    John: “not worthy”. Dully noted. I love this “community”…

    I’m not in any community, but that you imagine so is no surprise.

    (In passing, in neither case are your scare quotes meritorious)

    You are not worthy because you’re a known disingenuous sack of shit, and The Laughing Coyote is because he ain’t.

    Simple as that.

    PS “Dully noted”? Hee.

    Your hebetude is duly noted.

    <snicker>

  • http://lordsetar.wordpress.com Setár, self-appointed Elf-Sheriff of the Pharyngula Star Chamber

    Michael, stick to your day job, which I can already tell is not law.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Keep bringing up my choice of words, Phil. Keep completely ignoring the fact that you just pretty much admitted to what I accused you of.

    You’ve been disingenuous from the start. You’ve never had a real point to make with all your bullshit about ‘threats’. Know what’s really hilarious though? Now one of your little idiot buddies is -actually- trying to threaten me into silence!

    Will it work?

    What do you think?

  • John Morales

    Michael Kingsford Gray:

    If you do not condemn it, and permit it to stand as is, then I shall be forced to assume that you are of a similar intent, which I truly trust you are not.

    Heh. Such concern!

    (Free speech advocacy at its finest!)

  • Utakata

    Lol, looks like all the trolls are coming home to roost here.

    I think Justine needs to make a retraction if he want’s to save his sanity. Despite what I stated about Abbie and her horde, I can understand Justine having guilty pleasures like this. But like with many guilty pleasures, one must keep it to themselves. Or they could open up a can of “careful what you wish for” that may end up being more of a headache than a pleasure. I wish him the best of luck in the clean up though, lol!

  • Michael Kingsford Gray

    Justin, these immature puerile foul-mouthed, nay thoroughly infantile potty-mouthed commenters have made my points for me.

    But, the question remains: do you condone their content-free libels, or not?

    I should hate to see you tacitly side with their toxic invective by making no pronouncement either way.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    John, not “scare quotes”, just quotes. That’s what one does when one quotes someone else. Or is it? I don’t know, I don’t share your culture.

    Or maube I should have done it this way:

    You are not worthy because you’re a known disingenuous sack of shit,

    You better backup this assertion, with anything you can use to convince a judge. Not because I’m going to sue you, but because that’s what skeptics do. Would it pass the Lemon Test, I wonder…

    Coyote: I admit my motives, in a thruthful and honest way. Which also means I am open to thruthful and honest debate/discussion. I am also very open to admit my own faults and even apologize when wrong. Most ERVites are just the same, believe it or not.

    Your language is anoying because this seemed to be a grownup conversation, and you bring in schoolyard insults when none were profered at you.

    But, if you’re okay with these kind of attacks, what is it exactly you have against ERV?

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    But, if you’re okay with these kind of attacks, what is it exactly you have against ERV?

    Well let’s see… I metaphorically text-spat upon you, I told you to shove something up your ass, and I told you to eat shit.

    Do you not see how that is different from the kind of disturbing misogyny going down at the Slimepit? Sure it’s:

    puerile foul-mouthed, nay thoroughly infantile potty-mouthed

    (thanks Mikey!) but it’s not on the same level as the rape jokes flying around the slimepit, nor the obsessive and stalky behavior of certain commenters there.

    I think this is another of your disingenuous questions, actually. You know damn fucking well our problem isn’t with insults or naughty wangwidge.

    It’s about toxic fucking misogynistic behavior. I don’t need to hammer that point home for you yet again.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Michael Kingsford Gray:

    But, the question remains: do you condone their content-free libels, or not?

    I should hate to see you tacitly side with their toxic invective by making no pronouncement either way.

    Feel free to tenderly kiss my ringhole. Now who’s demanding that Justin ‘take sides’?

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    “Do you not see how that is different from the kind of disturbing misogyny going down at the Slimepit?”

    Proof? Linky? Anything?

    ” but it’s not on the same level as the rape jokes flying around the slimepit”

    Again: Proof? Linky? Anything?

    “It’s about toxic fucking misogynistic behavior”

    Once more: Proof? Linky? Anything?

  • Utakata

    Lol, Michael…I think Justine has gone to bed. You’ll have to wait till he gets up to fill a formal petition. Though he wakes up military time, I doubt you’ll have long to wait…lol. /shakes head

  • John Morales

    MKG:

    Justin, these immature puerile foul-mouthed, nay thoroughly infantile potty-mouthed commenters have made my points for me.

    Your bombast would be boosted were you not to clumsily write as if you were orating; one need not correct oneself after the fact in a written medium.

    Also, your allegation regarding “puerile foul-mouthed, nay thoroughly infantile potty-mouthed commenters” is a claim of fact and thus libellous, whereas the claim that you are a sack of shit ain’t, and therefore isn’t.

    (You confuse insult for libel)

    But, the question remains: do you condone their content-free libels, or not?

    You’re parading; were you truly to be addressing Justin, you’d email him.

    (I seriously doubt that your disapprobation will worry him too much)

    I should hate to see you tacitly side with their toxic invective by making no pronouncement either way.

    Unlike Abbie, he would at least be silent rather than assenting of such, O denizen.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Phil is displaying the typical MRA response. “Prove it.”

    I’m not gonna dig up the ERV monument and link it to you, you’re perfectly capable of finding it yourself.

    You’re doing that stupid thing you do again. That thing you’ve been doing through this whole thread. Pretending to argue in good faith.

    I’ve seen Justicar’s rape ‘jokes’. I’ve watched Ivanoff go on his increasingly frantic Hoggling sprees culminating with his real-life stalking threats (though he seems to have faded into the background since his real name came out).

    You cried wolf and accused Josh and Ophelia of threatening Justin, then later basically admitted that it was just another piece of your bad-faith rhetoric. And then the icing on the cake: I get threatened. It was, to be fair, a pathetic, weak, toothless, and utterly laughable threat, but threat it certainly was.

  • John Morales

    Phil G:

    You better backup this assertion, with anything you can use to convince a judge. Not because I’m going to sue you, but because that’s what skeptics do. Would it pass the Lemon Test, I wonder…

    It’s an assertion of my opinion, you dimbulb.

    (Your invocation of the Lemon test is mildly amusing in its inanity, but)

    PS To back up is not a backup. :)

  • Skepcheck

    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa): Where exactly are all these rape jokes flying around the slimepit? The only one I am aware of is the one that has recently been made in a mocking response to a comment on this very thread.

    Justin: A brave post. I’m sorry the comments have turned into the usual poo-flinging. Certain individuals have become too entrenched into “them and us” camps and are now just trying to score points against the other side. Now I guess I’m going to get accused of taking the moral highground or some such, but I claim no such thing. I’ll take colourful language of any description, non-censorship, dissenting opinion and the occasional “interesting” individual over at the slimepit rather than the the echochamber-like offering of the comments section found in many (not all) of the FTBs.

  • Darren

    Utakata @ 258

    Lol, Michael…I think Justine has gone to bed.

    I hope that was a typo…

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    “I’m not gonna dig up the ERV monument and link it to you, you’re perfectly capable of finding it yourself.”

    Good, then you’re no skeptic. Just a lazy kid on the internet.

    “I’ve seen Justicar’s rape ‘jokes’.”

    Possible, but hey, I’m not Justicar. I don’t remember said jokes, which means they were either a)not funny or b)non-relevant. Or c)inexistant. Or even d)a single occasion which doesn’t grant: “the rape jokes flying around the slimepit”

    I don’t know, and I don’t care. If Justicar made rape jokes, it’s his problem alone. Abbie can’t be blamed, as she doesn’t moderate her blog. If the jokes are still on the blog, go get the linkys. If justicar did those jokes and I didn’t react by complaining, it is entirely my fault, and I will react back at ERV’s. Just linky, please.

    “I’ve watched Ivanoff go on his increasingly frantic Hoggling sprees culminating with his real-life stalking threats (though he seems to have faded into the background since his real name came out).”

    You are a bit dense, aren’t you? Ivanoff is NOT his real name, some poor guy in a retiring home may have gotten into troubles, though, and who would give a shit anyway if it was? He was not at GAC, and the only “threat” he made was to slip a pamphlet in someone’s pocket, which he didn’t do.

    Funny though, that you think Franc’s was a threat but the ones seen here aren’t. There is a big failure in skepticism right there.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    Wait wait wait!

    My Slimepit pals have pointed me to this gem:

    “Phil is displaying the typical MRA response. “Prove it.””

    Isn’t it what skeptics do? Try and “Prove it”? Why does anything I’ve ever said make me a MRA? Actually, Prove It!

    Cut the bullshit, Coyote.

  • John Morales

    Phil G:

    Good, then you’re no skeptic. Just a lazy kid on the internet.

    You clearly misapprehend to what being a skeptic refers, that you conclude this upon such a feeble basis.

    (I’m sure you can adduce evidence for the claim that TLC is a lazy kid, right?)

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    You are a bit dense, aren’t you? Ivanoff is NOT his real name, some poor guy in a retiring home may have gotten into troubles, though, and who would give a shit anyway if it was? He was not at GAC, and the only “threat” he made was to slip a pamphlet in someone’s pocket, which he didn’t do.

    Typical MRA. No concept of boundaries. PZ stated clearly that he had no wish to be around him in meatspace. Hoggle made it pretty clear that he intended to put ‘something’ in PZ’s pocket.

    I can’t speak for PZ, but having that disgusting excuse for a human being claim he’s gonna put his hands anywhere near my pocket is definitely a violation of boundaries and definitely a threat.

    You keep acting like I’m expected to engage you on your terms, when you’ve already shown yourself to be asking questions in bad faith. You know goddamn well Josh and Ophelia weren’t ‘threatening’ anyone, but you went ahead and cried wolf anyways. Now you expect me to engage with you like you’re an honest person and bring you proof that’s up to your ‘skeptical’ standards?

    You don’t get to call the shots, Phil.

    It’s not like this is my first exposure to your idiocy either. You have a bit of a reputation.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Wait wait wait!

    My Slimepit pals have pointed me to this gem:

    “Phil is displaying the typical MRA response. “Prove it.””

    Isn’t it what skeptics do? Try and “Prove it”? Why does anything I’ve ever said make me a MRA? Actually, Prove It!

    Cut the bullshit, Coyote.

    Like I said, you have a reputation, Phil. At what point is there enough evidence that there’s a sexism problem in society, and at what point are you just being ‘skeptical’ in the same sense as a global warming denialist or creationist is ‘skeptical’?

    How many women have to tell you they’re entirely skeeved out by what’s going on at ERV before you stop demanding citations and ‘proof’? How does someone ‘prove’ that they’re genuinely bothered by something until it meets your standards?

    This is why you are an MRA. This is why I don’t give a single tin shit about playing by the rules you attempt to set. There is a sexism problem in society, and people like you are a huge part of it.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    John: “(I’m sure you can adduce evidence for the claim that TLC is a lazy kid, right?)”

    Or that he/she/they is 12 years old (hint: I can’t). You guys never get hyperbole? I actualy find discussion with Coyote to be quite enjoyable. He/she/they’re a challenge. We are not face to face, we don’t know each others, we only read words. IRL I may be a sack of shit, or a very pleasant guy. So could Coyote be. Or you, John. But rumours and fear-mongering have brought us to see allies as enemies, which I find uterlly stupid.

    As far as evidence goes, I’ll reffer you to: “I’m not gonna dig up the ERV monument and link it to you, you’re perfectly capable of finding it yourself.”

    That’s plain lazy.

    Coyote:”Typical MRA.”

    Where the fuck are you getting this from? I don’t care what Franc does, it’s his own problem! Not mine, by a few thousand miles. If PZ felt a real threat and wanted to defend himself from the threat, good, that’s the right thing to do.

    Where am I, some French guy in France, supposed to fit in?

    And again, proofs or STFU. You made the claims upthread about all those evil things at ERV, and yet I can’t see any proof.

  • julian

    So, Sgt. Griffith, how’d the thread turn out for you? Did we the baboon troupe as your friends like to call us behave exactly as you expected us to and were your friends the paragons of reason you believe them to be?

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    And again with “STFU”

    My apologies. Proof or don’t make false accusations.

  • msironen

    And we’re not Sworn Enemies of Justin Griffith. Please don’t turn out to be that guy.

    See Justin, all you need to do is cave in and they won’t have to review the list of Sworn Enemies. You saw what happened to JT when he refused to let the Enlightened call the shots on his blog comments…

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Where the fuck are you getting this from? I don’t care what Franc does, it’s his own problem! Not mine, by a few thousand miles. If PZ felt a real threat and wanted to defend himself from the threat, good, that’s the right thing to do.

    Again, Phil.

    YOU. HAVE. A. REPUTATION.

    It precedes you.

    I don’t need to dig up the monument for you. You were there. IIRC, you were writing half of it. Quit playing stupid.

  • John Morales

    Phil G:

    As far as evidence goes, I’ll reffer you to: “I’m not gonna dig up the ERV monument and link it to you, you’re perfectly capable of finding it yourself.”

    That’s plain lazy.

    Not really; it merely means he cares little whether you accept his claim or not, he is confident.

    (He is under no philosophical obligation to justify himself to you unless he cares for you to accept his proposition)

    Where am I, some French guy in France, supposed to fit in?

    I remember your entrance, your indignant bluster and your consequent bannination from Pharyngula, so I have good basis upon which to note that you didn’t fit in there.

    And again, proofs or STFU. You made the claims upthread about all those evil things at ERV, and yet I can’t see any proof.

    Fine, it’s your purported disbelief against his assertion.

    <snicker>

  • John Morales

    [meta + OT + personal]

    You don’t remember me from there and then, Phil? ;)

  • http://www.hyperdeath.co.uk hyperdeath

    Michael Kingsford Gray:

    content-free libels

    You don’t know what libel is, do you?

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    John Morales: Phil is being extra-skeptical. You know, like the people who think global warming is a big socialist conspiracy and those who remind us that there are many ‘unexplainable gaps’ in the fossil record. ;)

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    And again with “STFU”

    My apologies. Proof or don’t make false accusations.

    Make me, you shit-eater.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    And yeah, my accusations are totally ‘false’ because I don’t jump at your command and link a bunch of posts that I KNOW YOU’VE ALREADY SEEN like a good little doggie.

  • http://www.hyperdeath.co.uk hyperdeath

    Concentratedwater, OM says:

    Seems like we’re drawing all of the FfTB commenters’ secret rape fantasies out tonight. Come on, keep them coming (as the Madame said to her girls).

    Justin, I’m sure you know that some of the blogs here perform a minor role as a support forum for rape victims. Do you really want this malignant little sociopath (who’s no doubt squealing with joy at the thought of having upset some of these victims) on your blog?

  • John Morales

    [meta]

    TLC, sort of, in a disingenuous fashion; but nonetheless it is true that you haven’t justified your claim.

    (That said, I endorse its substance, and I myself am also not going to go Googling just to appease the pissant*)

    * Matter of fact, I visited the odd blog of people that constituted the initial sludge of the pit.

    (A bit like checking out vore; disturbing but banal)

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    Coyote: “Again, Phil.

    YOU. HAVE. A. REPUTATION.”

    So, is it justified? Do you know me? Is my reputation enough to deny my arguments? Because I can assure you that outside of FTB, my reputation is very good. Second or tier sources and all. Skepticism…

    “I don’t need to dig up the monument for you. You were there. IIRC, you were writing half of it. Quit playing stupid.”

    Err, no, I wasn’t. My contribution amounts to almost nothing (although it’s climbing these days, because there are fun things happening all around. I’m not saying any of the things discussed are fun, just that the discussion is fun. Damn, I shouldn’t even have to point that out!).

    John: “Not really; it merely means he cares little whether you accept his claim or not, he is confident.”

    Solid skepticism there. I know a lot of confident people. Phelps, anyone?

    I just want EVIDENCE, not assertions! I may have missed stuff. is this hard to understand?

    “(He is under no philosophical obligation to justify himself to you unless he cares for you to accept his proposition)”

    Phelps again (or Hitler, if you need a Godwin).

    “I remember your entrance, your indignant bluster and your consequent bannination from Pharyngula, so I have good basis upon which to note that you didn’t fit in there.”

    Glad to know it. So, about 4 years of helping you guys out with your own shit doesn’t count? Happy not to fit, then.

    “Fine, it’s your purported disbelief against his assertion.”

    Well, proof or… well, you know how it goes. Why snivell around? Just post the links.

    “You don’t remember me from there and then, Phil? ;)”

    I have to say I do remember you, but probably more from the shit you got on FTB lately.

    NOTE: I have nothing against anyone here. I can get angry, but none of you should give a fuck. Don’t take any of my comments personally.

    Thanks

  • Michael Kingsford Gray

    Justin: Once again, is this full response to an apology acceptable, or not?

    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says:

    Make me, you shit-eater.

    If you concord with that kind of empty foul and infantile invective, then tell me so, and I shan’t soil your blogstep again.

    If not, what do you intend to to about it?

    Inaction signifies agreement with this pointless toxic and venomous invective.

  • msironen

    Justin, I’m sure you know that some of the blogs here perform a minor role as a support forum for rape victims. Do you really want this malignant little sociopath (who’s no doubt squealing with joy at the thought of having upset some of these victims) on your blog?

    Yes Justin, aren’t you ashamed that you haven’t sufficiently silenced the very people under discussion in your post?

    Maybe all it takes is a few more posts by the folk hero Laughing Coyote for Justin to see the errors of his ways! Go, Coyote, go!

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    John: I’m sure someone else has links. It’s 4 am here. And I definitely don’t owe Phil Giordana anything.

    The whole thing started with me calling him out for crying wolf about ‘threats’ anyways. The evidence of that is right here on this thread.

    Speaking of which… where are ya, Mikey? Are you calling your lawyer? Or were you just hoping Justin would see your threat, take it seriously, and then ban me? (I don’t think Justin is as stupid as you think he is, in that case).

  • oolon

    Good post – I like the attempt to empathise with the ‘enemy’. I’d not heard of ERV before finding Pharyngula and FtB – I agree there is a lot of good stuff on ERVs blog and I’ve not found any sexism on there directly only that linked to from FtB so it appears not to be endemic to me at the moment at least. (I respect the writers on FtB but will make my own mind up on that issue)

    I certainly appears they have made some unpleasant comments – then it appears some bloggers on FtBs have responded with vitriol of their own. To me words and comments do not make a person an inveterate sexist. This all appears to me to be more reminiscent of the school playground than a grown-up discussion and while ERV appear to be the childish ones who ‘started it’ as my teacher used to say, it takes two to make a fight. This seems to have some good advice – http://www.yourofficecoach.com/topics/how_to_deal_with_childish_adults.htm

    But as a childish adult myself who ‘gets’ how much fun it can be to act that way – I cannot easily empathise with anyone who uses ‘rape jokes’ or calls others ‘cunts’ etc as it is something I’d never be able to bring myself to do even on an anonymous internet board. If nothing else I’d feel I’d lost the argument if I had to resort to those tactics.

    One thing I don’t understand – maybe someone can help me – is why the focus on words so much? Ok feminism is an admirable pursuit and should be fought on all fronts but this seems like a pointless war that could only result in a phyric victory. Childish idiots are always going to exist and they are always going to say things for shock effect. Not being shocked is the best way to counter them else you pass the power to them and encourage them more (See link above) – other than that you can restrict their free speech and force them not to say shocking offensive things which does not seem like a good outcome to me. All this has resulted in is a polarisation of the debate and people have taken sides – nothing good comes of tribal warfare either in reality or cyberspace.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Justin: Once again, is this full response to an apology acceptable, or not?

    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says:

    Make me, you shit-eater.

    If you concord with that kind of empty foul and infantile invective, then tell me so, and I shan’t soil your blogstep again.

    If not, what do you intend to to about it?

    Inaction signifies agreement with this pointless toxic and venomous invective.

    Ahhh, there you are!

    I was not responding to an apology. Sticking the word ‘apologies’ in a sentence fragment doesn’t make it ‘an apology’. I’m pretty sure Phil wasn’t ‘apologizing’ for anything.

    I’m sure Justin is gonna be heartbroken to lose your readership. Oh well.

    Generally, demanding blog owners ban people you find objectionable is ‘bad form’. But so is threatening me with possible litigation. Not that you can do anything, really.

    What do you think of that, you lying bag of feces?

  • John Morales

    Phil G:

    I just want EVIDENCE, not assertions! I may have missed stuff. is this hard to understand?

    What you want is not my concern — is this hard to understand?

    I have to say I do remember you, but probably more from the shit you got on FTB lately.

    Yup; many there think I’m an asshole, for what that’s worth.

    Point is: I was there, and I vouch for TLC’s contention about your character.

    NOTE: I have nothing against anyone here. I can get angry, but none of you should give a fuck. Don’t take any of my comments personally.

    Right — not even the ones where you address people by name!

    <snicker>

  • http://www.hyperdeath.co.uk hyperdeath

    Yes Justin, aren’t you ashamed that you haven’t sufficiently silenced the very people under discussion in your post?

    Maybe all it takes is a few more posts by the folk hero Laughing Coyote for Justin to see the errors of his ways! Go, Coyote, go!

    That’s the whole point, you stupid little man. It’s about quality control. Posts like Justin Griffith’s attract damaged people, who then attempt to damage others.

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Hyperdeath: This is the first time I’ve ever been called a ‘Folk Hero’. Perhaps msironen could write a song for me? Acoustic guitar sounds about right. Something catchy.

  • Bob Monkhouse

    @Justin Griffith re Bitchin’ camaro.

    Not sure if anyone addressed this… (I skipped the bottom third of comments as it’s essentially Jets/Sharks… will you be my Tony?)..

    Bitchin’ Camaro reminded me of “chimba” a word from a certain latin country that refers crudely to the female genitals yet is also used in the same way as ‘bitchin’… a cool car is “una chimba”‘.

    Of course, bitchin isn’t popular usage in Great Britain, but I first heard it in Frank Zappa’s Valley Girl (“Like, Encino is *so* bitchin’). But then, I imagine FZ is an awful misogynist to people like Benson.

    So I suppose I’m seconding your question, and noting that language usage is fluid to a degree, and the attempt to control it is likely futile.

    One quick point:

    Only one “side” in this mess has to regularly screen shot to prove conversations took place. I think that says something.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    John: This is the internet.

    I participate in these conversations as a hobby, and a way to get over a very bad health problem(only at the moment, I hope). I do consider most commenters here or at ERV as some kind of friends. Mind you, it doesn’t mean I’m desperate for friends, just that I’ve been interacting with some of you for years at end.

    Some (most) of the ERVites have too. We shared a common goal, and then all hell break loose for something or other. It’s fun, but exhausting (but fun).

    When I adress people by name, it’s so it’s clear who I’m talking to. If, say, a commenter was posting under a nym but I knew their real name, I’d still adress that person under their nym. That’s the “polite” thing to do.

    Anyway, John, what I want is evidence, no more, no less. Coyote has sprayed assertions about ERV. If only for Abbie herself, I would like these to be substansiated.

    Coyote: 4 am?!? Dammit! Ok, I’ll let you sleep, we can get back to this later.

  • http://www.hyperdeath.co.uk hyperdeath

    The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa) says:

    Hyperdeath: This is the first time I’ve ever been called a ‘Folk Hero’. Perhaps msironen could write a song for me? Acoustic guitar sounds about right. Something catchy.

    It would be interesting from an academic point of view. What’s the best psychiatry journal for this kind of thing?

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Also msironen might have noticed that the only thing I really have to say to or about Justin Griffiths is that he’s at least trying to listen and not double down.

    Nope, my problem started with Phil trying to claim Ophelia and Josh were ‘threatening’ Justin. Crying wolf like the pathetic little coward he is.

    And now I’ve moved on to Internet-Lawyer Mikey here. Because he’s just funny. Yup, Josh and Ophelia were ‘threatening’ Justin when they warned him shit like this would start showing up, but Mikey is in no way attempting to threaten me or Justin.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    Ok, Coyote, last try:

    My accusation was hyperbole because of all the shit that is going on these days.

    Good?

  • The Laughing Coyote (Canis Sativa)

    Ok, Coyote, last try:

    My accusation was hyperbole because of all the shit that is going on these days.

    Good?

    Fuck off. I somehow doubt this is actually your ‘last try.’ It’s nice that you acknowledge that it was hyperbole, but that doesn’t change what you were trying to do with it.

    Just more of the same old “FfTB” stereotyping. We’re the echo-chamber and we try to bully everyone else into silence, blah-dee-blah. I swear the ERVites were using a copypasta for a while.

  • http://www.myspace.com/fairylandfantasia Phil Giordana FCD

    *sigh*

    And facepalm, also.

  • BarfSimpson

    Justin,

    Another day, another psychodrama. I trust you are now coming to the conclusion that freefromthoughtblogs has more in common with Manson’s Spahn Ranch than anything Freethought or Enlightenment related?

    FTB is a brand – brands have brand association. Anything with the FTB logo is immediately suspect and cannot be be trusted by what has rapidly become the majority of the community. Maybe it’s time to cut losses and distance yourself eh? It’s not too late.

  • John Morales

    BarfSimpson:

    I trust you [Justin] are now coming to the conclusion that freefromthoughtblogs has more in common with Manson’s Spahn Ranch than anything Freethought or Enlightenment related?

    <snicker>

    FTB is a brand – brands have brand association. Anything with the FTB logo is immediately suspect and cannot be be trusted by what has rapidly become the majority of the community.

    <snicker>

    Maybe it’s time to cut losses and distance yourself eh? It’s not too late.

    I’m sure your sage advice will be given due weight in his considerations.

  • Za-zen

    No justin should stay! In order for the comedy that is “freethoughtblogs” TM to continue it needs straight men (apologies to all the nuts i’ll rephrase that) In order for “freethoughtblogs” TM to continue it needs straight persons of all genders and those transitioning or fluid.

    Ftb is parody central for the skeptic atheist movement, it operates as a check for the majority who want to be free from dogma, and a warning clarion as to what “atheism as religion” (as the xtian mob insist exists) actually looks like.

  • BarfSimpson

    John Morales says: June 24, 2012 at 8:28 am –

    QED. I think John is the wordpress champeen robo-commenter. I think he barfed up 27 verbal hair balls in 6 minutes on one blog he took exception to, all as meaningful as the comment here.

  • John Morales

    BarfSimpson:

    I think John is the wordpress champeen robo-commenter

    By your own contention that anything with the FTB logo is immediately suspect and cannot be be trusted by what has rapidly become the majority of the community, and given that your comment is showing under the FTB logo no less than mine, it follows that neither of our comments can be be trusted by what has rapidly become the majority of the community.

    I think he barfed up 27 verbal hair balls in 6 minutes on one blog he took exception to, all as meaningful as the comment here.

    <snicker>

  • Sili

    “champeen”?

    I’ve seen Morales called a lot of things, but “bubbly” and “sparkling” don’t rank high on the list.

  • http://furiouspurpose.me rorschach

    In order for the comedy that is “freethoughtblogs” TM to continue it needs straight men (apologies to all the nuts i’ll rephrase that) In order for “freethoughtblogs” TM to continue it needs straight persons of all genders and those transitioning or fluid.

    I note that the commenter who vomited forth this garbage seems unaware of, or just couldn’t be bothered to look up, how to write a ™ symbol in ASCI, which is easily googled in around 3 seconds. I also note that the commenter is applying his “arguments” based on gendered insults.

    I also note that the commenter is using the term dogma. A slime-pitter, then.

    I thought this kind of stupidity and bigotry was only found at ERV. Next thing, my comment will be in moderation.

  • Sili

    You are not worthy of having a bridge built to your cesspool.

    What? No “bridge to nowhere” joke?

  • Za-zen

    I have an edit to make to my post @300.

    When i Utilised the term “straight” it was of course in the context of the comedy “straight” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_act

    I meant no offence to anyone who is not hetrosexual with my usage. Therefore in order not to participate in the repression of the marginalised i wish to rework my post. Please read this into the original:

    In order for “freethoughtblogs” TM to continue it needs straight/bisexual/Asexual/pansexual/homosexual/anysexualivemissed persons of all genders and those transitioning or fluid.

  • BarfSimpson

    Sili says: I’ve seen Morales called a lot of things, but “bubbly” and “sparkling” don’t rank high on the list.

    Yeah, usually it’s “toilet slug”. Speaking of which -

    rorschach says: June 24, 2012 at 9:26 am

    This poor little turd flounced out of FTB because he wasn’t getting the attention he demanded. Such cruel FTB people ignoring his genius… Now he’s back for more. A urinal mint with a convenient target on his forehead.

    This is also the “toilet slug” that initiated the original ERV censorship bogus complaint forms, formulated on pharyngula, but deleted in one of the regular FTB “reality realignments” -

    http://furiouspurpose.me/national-geographic-and-scienceblogs-might-want-to-take-a-look-at-the-erv-blog/

    Rorschach – like Laden, beyond parody.

  • BarfSimpson

    rorschach says: June 24, 2012 at 9:26 am – how to write a ™ symbol in ASCI (sic)

    How do you remember to breath you loser?

  • http://furiouspurpose.me rorschach

    This poor little turd flounced out of FTB because he wasn’t getting the attention he demanded. Such cruel FTB people ignoring his genius

    Huh, “flounced out of FTB” ? Are you crazy or just uninformed ? Actually, never mind.

  • http://ms-daisy-cutter.dreamwidth.org/ Ms. Daisy Cutter, Gynofascist in a Spiffy Hugo Boss Uniform

    Justin:

    My initial thoughts are complex. I wince when I see racism, sexism, etc. I stop it and correct it when I see it in my soldiers. But I think a part of me deep down says “Don’t you tell me what I can and can not say… free speech mother fuckers!… Words are just words!…

    It must be nice to be one of those folks in society whom none of those slurs targets directly. It enables you to frame objections to them as “telling you what to do.” Like libertarians reacting to civil-rights legislation.

    Even the /b/tards at 4/7/99chan aren’t actually racist or nazis. They think it’s funny to be outrageous and shocking… and they laugh hardest at the people who aren’t in on the joke.”

    Because intent is fucking magic.

    It’s about chan-style humor. It’s hard to grasp.

    It’s really not. It’s about a subculture that has normalized the use of such language far beyond what is permissible in wider society, despite all the bigotries inherent in wider society. “But I know them and they’re really not like that” isn’t an argument. And you don’t really know them, not all of them.

    Seriously, I joke around like this all the time privately.

    So? Different audience, different expectations.

    I KNOW. THIS IS MY MEA CULPA! I am trying to explain how I shed this horrible way of thinking!

    Because what the world needs is another privileged type wanking in public about how he’s tryyyyyying so haaarrrrrd to be a decent person, but he’s so confliiiiiiiicted!!! Boooooth siiiiiiiides have good points!!!

    I am asking for a similar learning curve here for me, my friends.

    You aren’t a friend to many of us, and we don’t owe it to you to hold your hand while you toddle up the “learning curve,” nor any forgiveness for your “inexperience.” None of this shit is particular to blogging. You have enough goddamn life experience to figure it out on your own.

    If you have any sense, you’ll listen to what Josh, AnyBeth, DogEared, Julian, RahXephon, Loqi, Emburii, Sally, and your other critics are telling you. They’ve given you the compliment of taking the time and effort to explain why you’re wrong, because they sense that you can be persuaded.

    Please just come back to this blog, perhaps with a red flag raised, but come back for the topics that I do stick to.

    Why should any of us who are targeted by the slimepit epithets and lies reward you with page hits and serious consideration when you’re not willing to stand up for us? Christ, your sense of entitlement is something else.

  • charles

    This was a very courageous post, Justin, and I applaud you for it. The comments that have followed only reinforce the ERV position, but you can see that for yourself. I, too, support Abbie Smith 100%.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Just thought I’d go check out “Periodic Table of Swearing” and saw this:

    DT

    8:36 am

    Phormer Pharyngulite:

    I wonder how long it will be before Justin’s Blog disappears from FTB.

    Looking forward to the outcome.

    Reminds me of when Myers screwed up McCreights poll, and then she replied “FUCK YOU PZ”, that he was an “asshole”, a “giant fucking asshole” and that he had a “ginormous fucking ego”

    The next day, in a an orwellian twist, she did an about face and said she was in the wrong and basically long live teh peezus and his crusty vaginal overlords.

    and…

    franc

    parallel jewish nazis

    8:24 am

    Za-zen 8:14 am: With regards to Ophelia’s shrodinger’s threat, it must be remembered that by proper use of parallel logic…

    …that my post sex-change pink gumboots are a plea for help and I want to crawl back into her cobweb ridden ChasmOfDespair™ while apologising for any accidental orgasm the patriarchy may have caused.

    Then I can kick her cunt from the inside. I wonder if Dan O’Bannon woke up in a cold sweat after nightmares like these?

    So, apparently PZ is run by “crusty vaginal overlords”, and Ophelia has a “cobweb-ridden ChasmOfDespair”.

    Nope, no sexism there! Just evidence! And intelligence!

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Also, I can’t wait for the people over there that I quoted to say they said that shit because they were being ironic, or they knew someone on FTB would quote it.

    Yep. Prove how stoopid I am about saying your group engages in sexism by….engaging in sexism. Patton could take lessons from your tactics.

  • BarfSimpson

    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital says:

    June 24, 2012 at 10:21 am -

    Oh you poor waifs. I just wet myself a little reading that. This is why grownups go “shush” when children walk in the room. You are eternal children here. No grown up talk allowed!

    And for Rah, WahWahWah, Dan O’Bannon is responsible for the Alien franchise you dimwit.

  • Emburii

    Iamcuriousblue, you mean the part where I have already admitted that I called your behavior mendacious too early on? The part where I apologized for it WITHOUT having to be called out by name by the owner of the blog, whereas even after Greta Christina told you to moderate it you still wouldn’t admit you’d taken anything the wrong way? For that matter, I called out your behavior but have not once directly attacked your character (even the mendacious’ bit was attached to the modifier ‘seemed’ meaning I could just have been seeing it wrong, and I said you came off as hypocritical here rather than saying you WERE a hypocrite). Meanwhile, your attacks were very much identity-based; according to you I AM nasty, I AM a troll, I AM a bully. Who’s invested in hate or othering, then? Who refuses to give the person they’re arguing with benefit of the doubt? That you accuse us being ideologues without examining your own behavioral straitjacket has long since stopped being funny.

    Justin, thank you for considering people’s criticisms and inviting back even the people who have disagreed with your decisions. That takes a lot of maturity, and I thank you for being part of the skeptical movement. I do hope, though, you’ll pay attention to some interesting differences, like how no ERVite has actually responded to the distortion of SallyStrange’s position OR tried to actually explain how their characterization is accurate.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Oh you poor waifs. I just wet myself a little reading that. This is why grownups go “shush” when children walk in the room. You are eternal children here. No grown up talk allowed!

    So crusty vaginas count as “grownup talk” now? Your perceptions of reality really are warped.

  • BarfSimpson

    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital says:

    June 24, 2012 at 10:36 am So crusty vaginas count as “grownup talk” now? Your perceptions of reality really are warped.

    ‘tardopalooza. Y’know, if life treats you like shit on the sidewalk, maybe it’s because you deserve it? Your genitals don’t even come into play. Like the early christians – feed me to the lions please? Then I can be more saintly than thou.

    Every time I browse this freefromthoughtbarfbag, it’s like slowing down at a car accident.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    BarfSimpson, your slide into incoherence would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

  • CommanderTuvok

    Ophelia Benson:

    It was nice knowing you, Justin. Bye.

    Don’t worry, Justin. Ophelia is a known troll from another blog.

    _____________________

    Stacy:

    Jason did not accuse ERVites of writing the emails.

    Ah. Still rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic, I see. You still fail to see how Jason equated the emails with Ophelia’s decision to quit TAM. Ophelia said she quit because of an email “threat”, Jason popped up to blame certain individuals of bullying Ophelia out of TAM. Jason did not clearly make any distinction, and when Sara (quite rightly) asked him to clarify, the FfTB bullies turned on her.

    Now that IS what happened. The ERVites spotted Jason and Ophelia’s lie straight up, pointed it out, and now sadly for you, keep pointing it out. Just as we keep pointing out Ophelia’s hypocrisy over the publication of a “private” email, when she did exactly the same thing herself nearly 12 months ago.

    We ERVites have VERY GOOD memories. Your memory-hole and narration-alteration doesn’t fool us.

  • Emburii

    Also, Phil Giordana, the fact that you don’t bother to assess the behavior of people who share your dislikes is why I don’t like ERVites, despite not agreeing with several FTBers. You said that you don’t pay attention to what Hoggle does or what he says; apparently nothing he or anyone else has said ever counts as over a line or ‘dude, not cool’. THAT’s dogma. THAT’s an echo chamber.

    To put it back on track in terms of skepticism, the ‘so-called alternative medicine’ (SCAM) front refuses to criticize or disavow any idea, no matter how evidence-free or even destructive it might actually be. Bleach enemas on autistic kids, black salve, homeopathy…Autism One, a huge quack conference, has never once disavowed a treatment from anyone who identifies as a SCAMmer. The closest they’ve come is a few people saying ‘well, it might not work,but you shouldn’t squelch them because of Health Freedom!’

    This is one of the clearest signs of dogma, that someone is too heavily invested in the group to actually consider or criticize any of its other members. In this thread I have specifically mentioned people I disagree with. Other commenters have disagreed with Justin for even posting this. People have disagreed with other FTBers publicly, even, because they want to have an intellectually rigorous and honest community here.

    I have not seen the same thing from most dedicated ERVites. Nothing on their side is ever beyond the pale to them, nothing is too much. It becomes a NO U content-free slapfight and, while not all FTBers react to the argument with perfect poise, why should they? Have you ever admitted you were wrong? WOULD you admit that you were wrong? Would you ever be willing to criticize the behavior of someone you otherwise agreed with?

    I’ve seen people who disagreed with FTB modidy their own sentiments when they were wrong (thank you, za-zen) but it’s rare and it’s never been from big-name ERVites. So, here’s your chance to apply some reason. WITHOUT pulling a ‘NO U’ or referring to your opponents in any way, what kind of language would you consider inappropriate from your own side? What sentiments would you be unwilling to let pass? And, if someone were to point out that someone had done just that, would you be willing to try and talk to that someone who otherwise agreed with you about it?

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/ Greg Laden

    Concentrated water: Abbie’s policy is absolutely and proudly anti-banning.

    I commented on ERV now and then but at some point Abbie started to delete my comments. So, no, not really.

    Aside from that little revelation, please note: There is no a priori reason that a particular blog or blogger has a comment policy that you happen to approve of. I’m not quite sure who exactly the fuck you think you are to suggest that there should be. Do you have similar policies as to who’s house you enter? About where you stick your dick? I imagine so.

    How did you “earn” an “OM” with such sloppy and ridiculous thinking.

  • http://freethoughtblogs.com/xblog/ Greg Laden

    Damn, I know I know. My finger have their own little grammar thing going.

  • BarfSimpson

    RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital says:

    June 24, 2012 at 10:47 am BarfSimpson, your slide into incoherence would be funny if it weren’t so sad.

    And “yo mama is…”

    Nevermind. Again, QED. Justin, what you doing here man? really…

  • CommanderTuvok

    Sally Very Strange:

    Why should I go to the Slimepit when the Slimepit can be relied on to come to me, bearing glad tidings of my love affair with rape jokes?

    What “rape jokes”?

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    BarfSimpson, you’re right. Obviously it’s my fault if I can’t comprehend incomprehensible posts. I guess I left my omniscience in my other blog-pants.

  • RahXephon, Waahmbulance Driver for St. Entitlement’s Hospital

    Commander Tuvok, logic dictates that you should read the thread, where this has been discussed in detail.

  • BarfSimpson

    rorschach says: June 24, 2012 at 9:52 am – Huh, “flounced out of FTB” ? Are you crazy or just uninformed ? Actually, never mind.

    Oh look. here’s Rorschach wetting his nappies -

    http://furiouspurpose.me/rant/

    “The fools do not believe my genius!” Ok, not FfTB. but near enough. nappy squirting brat. That organizes censorship campaigns for PZ Myers. Without a word of thanyou. Oh! The inhumanity!

  • Bob Monkhouse

    That Laden is a nasty little man.

    He’ll censor and accuse and demame, and try to get Smith banned, all the while pretending he doesn’t see Steff McGraw being called a rape-apologist by his pals.

    A nastier little swine you’d be hard pressed to meet.

  • BarfSimpson

    Greg Laden says: June 24, 2012 at 10:55 am – I commented on ERV now and then but at some point Abbie started to delete my comments. So, no, not really.

    Liar, liar pants on fire.

    Yes greg, other’s do trash your posts, only because you are so desperate to link spam for blog hits. Abbie DOES NOT.

  • ChasCPeterson

    jeez, Giordana, with the faux-naive no-fair whining. Here, check out this page of comments and the next. There, among your many posts (which alternate between kissing the ass of The Latest and engaging in the most explicit ‘us’-vs.-’Pharyngulites’ tribal cheerleading ever), you’ll find TylerD’s classic bit of no-doubt ironic 4channy hyperbole @ July 28, 2011, 7:57 am (to which afaict only The Justicar objected in any way). You’ll also find Gray, Welch, Ms. Nectar, and many other current pitizens, all of whom–you too–have hung in there for over a year now slagging away at your chosen targets and occasionally sniping at each other, taking it in stride.

    You can find this kind of shit–by which I mean hateful cruelty presented as humor (ironic and 4channy, no doubt), endless spittle and walls of oblivious text from shit-stirring narcissists, and endless stoopid games of gotcha and intentional misrepresentation–within a page or two of dipping at random into the pit-comprising threads, and you know it.

    Skeptical term-lawyering about ‘rape-jokes’ does not erase the freakin year of just repulsive shit and bile and juvenile taunting you and your friends have dished out over there every day for a year for grins. That’s the pit’s reputation, well deserved. Abbie herself is saddled with the reputation that comes from hosting it, and you’re saddled with the reputation of repeatedly trying to defend it.

    Oh, it’s getting better recently?

    uh huh.

    Gray, that was some of the most pitiful trolling I’ve ever seen.

  • Justin Griffith

    I do not support Justin Griffith.

    I am going to approve the comments in the spam trap, then read all of this.

    Comments are suspended for now.

    This post was massive fail. I’ll put another post soon. I can’t believe there is still argument going on, but then again I can’t believe I was stupid enough to think I could solve it with this post.

    I shades-of-grey-knighted (fail). Thank you all for reaching out, the fail here was in sloppy blogging. I was already on the right side of this issue, I was just naive as hell.

  • BarfSimpson

    Greg Laden says: June 24, 2012 at 10:55 am – a priori

    Need YOU, Walmart man, to explain a priori without google. Then maybe Benson can explain epistemic relativism.

    Clowns.

  • Nerull

    Now that the slimepit has arrived to show you exactly how “nuanced” and “ironic” they are, you probably aren’t reading the comments here anymore, but just in case, I’d like to ask another question.

    Are people hurt less by a joke that’s said in an ironic fashion? Does using them in an ironic way somehow diminish the impact of the “real” jokes?

    You seem to have some weird obsession with the way 4chan does everything, so lets look at them. Yes, at some point in the past 4channers may have been “ironic” in the many flavors of bigoted jokes they made. The only thing it seems to have accomplished is that 4chan is now full of actual bigots, who feel validated. Instead of helping, the use of “ironic” jokes has only made things worse.

  • KarlVonMox

    Amazing. As soon as I saw the title of this post, and realized that Justin was going to suggest that maybe, just maybe, the people that comment at ERV and have disagreements with Watson/Myers/Benson on certain issues arent the spawn of satan and evil incarnate, I knew this would erupt into a huge mind numbing thread.

    How ironic that this place is called freethoughtblogs. As soon as someone posts something that doesn’t tow the party line on a subjective issue like this, a shit storm erupts. Who needs Christians to drag the secular movement under when we have these egomaniacs trying to run the show.

  • http://iacb.blogspot.com/ Iamcuriousblue

    Emburii @315: Good grief; I’m not sure what your ultimate point is. That I had no right to be angry with you ever? Sorry but I did. Perhaps you’d like to move forward?

    Fair point about the “you are” statements. Recast those as “what you said” and “how you’re behaving” statements rather than “what you ARE” to get closer to my actual meaning.

    And what is “my behavioral straitjacket”? That I just don’t agree with consensus opinion at FTB, nor your collective approach? Well, sorry, but following this thread, I can say that I agree with you people less than ever. All I have to do is look at Daisy Cutter’s hateful rhetoric @310 to see how fucking misguided, wrong, and fanatical the ideas touted here really are.

    You think this is some kind of productive promotion of social justice? That’s utterly fucking laughable. This is more the kind of rhetoric that was going around the New Left at the point where it splintered into hateful little cults like the Weather Underground and the RCP. FTB can drag itself down for all I care, but I think it’s incumbent upon those of us who aren’t drinking the koolaid to make sure you don’t drag down the entire skeptic/atheist movement along with it.


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