Since 2003, prostitution has been legal in New Zealand. Contrary to what the right-wingers may have thought, the country didn’t degenerate into a nation of violence and sexual abuse.
Instead, it cleaned up the underground world of prostitution and turned it into a legit business, giving sex workers the same protection as regular workers. They can turn down work without fear of being beaten or killed. Health standards mean less sexually transmitted diseases. Sex workers can get quality clients instead of only those desperate enough to risk criminal charges.
So it’s been a success. Should the US and the rest of Europe do the same thing? I think so. Do you?
In a word? Yes.
To defend that statement, all I have to do is point at New Zelaand. While I’m sure that the US of A would have a rough start with it, I’m sure that in a year or two, a real system would be in place to handle it.
To answer the main question I’m really not sure as I don’t feel I know enough about the whole issue to give a definitive answer. I’m leaning towards yes but I’m sure there are good arguments on either side.
The one type of argument I’m never happy with is the well it works in country X so it will work in country Y as this ignores vast swaths of culturally differences.
Aus did the same years ago, the only mionr problem has been some corruption regarding those who get the licenses for legal brothels and a problem with the NIMBYs (not in my backyard) but as a very educated woman who has worked at the top end of the escort industry, while finishing my fourth book it is a definite improvement.
We all sell our bodies (and our time) for money. We’re all prostitutes if the price is right.
The problem with selling sex is that it’s only for procreation, not for enjoyment, right? The sin of sex is a myth, perpetuated by those for whom others’ self-loathing of natural urges is profitable.
TC.
I will recognise my biases in that I am an avid reader of Belle de Jour, but I think yes – although echoing what has been said above, I don’t think that simply legalising prostitution will necessarily make the problems associated with it just go away.
I watched a superb program on prostitution in France the other night.
Prostitution is legal in Belgium and Switzerland and the women pay taxes and contribute to State pension funds. Along with the improved health benefits, the is no longer a great role for pimps. Many women turn to prostitution in their youth to fund their studies or save enough for deposit on a house and then drop out.
In France, although prostitution is not illegal, pimping is. The trouble is the definition of pimping is very loose. A single mother will find that her children become her pimps when they turn 18 because they are living off the benefits of prostitution. Likewise, a husband of a prostitute is automatically a pimp.
Take a look at the madness that exists in Sweden.
Feminist lobbyists have ensured that prostitution is a crime of violence against women.
Prostitution is legal, but it is illegal to pay for sex. Thus a prostitute is always a victim, and the client is always a criminal.
The law is worded in gender neutral terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Sweden
IT’s already legal in the Netherlands.
The also pay taxes :)
We’ve found that it’s led to a new line of idiocy of the NIMBY kind… one of my favourite cases was one where a brothel was set up in a suburb near here, apparently open between eleven and two… parents were worried about their children seeing naughty things, which raises the question of why their children would be peeking in peoples’ windows when they were supposed to be in school
A flatmate of mine had a friend who entered the business for three months and payed off thousands of dollars in student debt. If there’s that kind of demand, there will be supply, so it may as well be legal supply. The same argument, of course, can be made for many drugs.
one thing I will say is that the passage of this law was one of the complaints of the more conservative segment of society… one of my Christian friends viewed it as one of the disasters of the Labour government (which was in power for nine pretty good years and really only ousted because people were sick of the same faces), the other being the criminalization of spanking (which was actually the removal of “reasonable force” as a defense in child abuse cases, meaning that parents now have to punish their children in ways that don’t involve physical force).
I think yes, it should. To cut it short, my opinion matches with what Penn & Teller: Bulls**t! stated (Season 4, Episode 2). Prostitution is dangerous because it is illegal.
To be honest, I can’t quite firmly understand why religious doctrines demonizes sex. Can anyone tell me?
Aren’t there some places in the US that actually allow prostitution?
Didn’t Kings David and Solomon have their own personal brothels? And god was cool with that.
Prostitution? Absolutely. But where we should really focus our efforts is on legalization of drugs. We will NEVER stop the use or criminal activity around drug use. Legalize them all–marijuana, coke, ecstasy, heroin. Tax them. Spend the money on prevention and cure.
I think legalising and therefore going some way toward regulating the sex industry is totally the way forward. I will always think that prostitution and pornography for that matter contributes highly to the violation and sexual objectification of women and it will never sit quite right with me. However…more than that I believe in the protection of women. Yes yes I know that some women choose to make a living this way and retain control and explot the men etc but as a Social Worker I also know damn well that this variety of sex worker are few and far between and that the bulk of sex workers are made up of women who would rather do something else had they the means.
On a side note, I think the Home Secretary is bringing in new legislation whereby the clients who knowingly use trafficked sex workers can be convicted and I totally advocate this development.
Ignoring prostitution as we do now is not going to make it go away. People will always buy and sell sex. It is a shame that so many governments in the world have been unwilling to face the facts and create policies for legalized prostitution.
It is a win-win-win situation. The women and men of the sex industry get protection any other workers would, the clients are protected from STI transmission (due to regular mandatory testing and hopefully mandatory use of condoms, etc.) and the government brings down the crime rate while being able to tax earnings from prostitution.
i never understood the law
i can have sex for free
i can buy or be bought gifts like drinks or meals in return for sex
i can have sex on camera for money but
if cash changes hands and the sexual acts are not in front of a camera filmed and sold for the financial gain of others than the girl selling her body all of a sudden its illegal
laws like this take the rights for you to choose what you want for your body
these laws along with drug laws give power to criminals legalisation and tax allows for the flow of drugs to children to stop
the murders of sex workers to stop
and standards to come allowing for the prevention of aids and stds spreading the safety of workers and violence from the people fighting for the profits of exploiting these laws
America has always had a tough time swallowing the pill that a European, Asian or Oceanic country might be on to something better. It means America is not #1, and that undermines the ideological brand they supplant around the world.
I think legalizing prostitution would be a great idea, but first you’d have to get the country to loosen its evangelical grip on Bronze Age scorn.
Yes, I’ve thought so for quite a while now. Making it legal would allow more room to fight the instances where there is real harm being done, for example trafficking or child prostitution, and those resources could then go to what police are meant to do: protect people, not arrest them.
I think Penn and Teller Bullshit got it right. A society where you can’t choose what you can put in your body or do with what you please with your body is not a truely free country.
no.
The consequences for multiple sexual partners are just too scary. Creating an industry of people who do it for their occupation… even the 6 degrees of separation can’t save you from dirty side-effects. Not only would you be hooking-up with that nameless/faceless beauty down at the Red Light, but you’re also sharing her with most of the guys in your office building. Even if it’s “moral”, it’s still just gross.
Sure we can try to control and sanitize it, but self-centered sexual acts just end up hurting. If not physically right now, then they just deepen the whole of purpose and fulfillment that we try to fill with relationships. I do agree though with the comment below (above?) about America already being a whoreish nation, so why not legalize it. I don’t agree with it, at all, but it does reflect our national value pretty well: self.
absolutely. also saw an interesting article yesterday on countries where incest between 2 consenting adults is legal. nothing wrong with that either, imo.
If prostitution is legalized and regulated, then sex workers (of all genders) and their clients will be safer. Also, their work will be legitimized and stigma should decrease. So yes, I do think we should legalize sex work.
” The consequences for multiple sexual partners are just too scary. Creating an industry of people who do it for their occupation… ”
mark: Multiple sexual partners is a reality for some people in every country on the planet.
Besides you missed that boat with David and Solomon from the bible.
You cannot stop people from having sex, married, coupled up or any other way. Human beings are quite motivated to have sex with there wives, husbands and people on the side. They are also motivated to have sex before they are married.
There is no way you can stop sex from being exchanged for money/privileges/services. It is going to happen one way or another directly or indirectly.
So perhaps it is best to regulate it and make it as safe for everyone as possible.
I have mixed feelings about legalizing it. However, I also admit that the sex industry is something I know nothing about. I guess as long as there were equal regulations for men and women, I couldn’t complain too much. I don’t like the idea of young women or men (late teens to early 20′s) being treated as sex objects (perhaps we could set an age limit of 21+?), but if it means that we could improve situations for sex workers (both male and female), then I’m all for it.
Also, I’d rather sex workers be in a nice clean, non-descript building rather than out on a street corner. Maybe this could allow an opportunity to clean up bad parts of town and help people regain pride in their neighborhoods. That would be a good thing!
Read the article I linked to in the post — the women are choosing to be prostitutes even though there are other options for them.
“Contrary to what the right-wingers may have thought”
Speaking for one right-winger, myself, I’m strongly in favor of legalizing prostitution.
“The consequences for multiple sexual partners are just too scary. Creating an industry of people who do it for their occupation”
Creating? There is and always has been an industry of people who buy and sell sex. It’s part of human nature. How is the criminalization of sex between two consenting adults, merely because money changes hands, compatible with individual freedom? Why should the government decide whether one person can pay another to have sex?
I have to say yes to legalizing. Because it is a state issue here in America I doubt you will ever see all the states say yes anytime in the near future.
Yes, I also think that prostitution should be legalized. Turning tricks is something that have been going on since mankind has been in existence. There will always be a demand, a market, for sex, so it will never go away. Regulation can help keep people safer and healthier.
Right you are. Sorry if my error caused you to be offended.
Good piont UNRR.
I read in a book once: “Prostitution consists of two things: Sex, and Free Enterprise. Which one of those are you opposed to?”
I think Prostitution, and all victimless crimes, need to be made legal, for the simple reason that they, by definition, aren’t hurting anyone other than (possibly) the person committing them, who has made a choice to do so.
I don’t think anyone is willing to be a prostitute if given a choice.
There is a demand and supply issue in the economics of survival and societies should handle this issue humanly, it is not one-sided.
***Please*** you mean degenerate. Denigrate means to blacken, as in the reputation of; to make false or malicious allegations. That’s *not* what you meant.
Actually, what is the benefit of keeping paying for sex illegal?
Because it doesn’t seem it’s working very well, so far.
I definitely understand why people would be reticent to legalize prostitution with all of the trafficking issues and other problems not fully regulated.
However, I suspect that it would be easier to solve these problems if the industry were legalized and regulated, and that it would ultimately be safer for those involved.
So ultimately I see legalization as part of the solution, even though further steps should also be implemented.
Most of the problems allegedly ’caused’ by prostitution are actually the result of the illegality of trading sex for money, rather than from the sex itself. Most of the remaining problems (transmission of diseases, abuse/enslavement of sex workers, and so on) could be much better addressed as a public health or law enforcement matters, were it not for the illegality of commercial sex.
This is a similar situation as the “War on Drugs” where the overall social costs of enforcing the prohibition of popular recreational chemicals probably outweighs by several times the potential extra costs in health and lost productivity that would arise from drug use itself. The US went through this with Prohibition from 1919 to 1933. The crime, corruption and social breakdown that resulted from making consumption of alcohol illegal was far more destructive than the drunkenness that was sought to be prevented. We still live with some of the fallout from this era.
I would favor legalizing most prostitution, and then regulating, taxing, and policing it.
Apparently Daniel has no clue how bad it has gotten in Amsterdam.
I’m from NZ! Whoot! :) We actually have a very LOUD but numerically quite small conservative christian component to our politics, mostly in the hands of these guys – http://www.destinychurch.org.nz/. Most of the country think they’re slightly nutty and they don’t help their case when they declare they’re starting the worlds biggest commune as a self-sufficient city in Auckland. But they violently oppossed legalising prostitution (and legal status for gay couples, unsurprisingly…).
What I noticed from the change to legalisation is that the stigma, at least among the 20-30 year olds, has diminished. My friends and I joke about going into prostitution to pay for our enormous student loans. I don’t know anyone who did personally though :) But people in my age bracket are philosophical about it. “Well, the money’s good, I suppose if I were sleeping around every weekend anyway….”
I’ve also noticed that the abuses of the sex industry are becoming a lot more public. F’rinstance, the coked-up thirteen year olds being used as prostitutes by gangs are getting on national telly as examples of “aren’t the GANGS” terrible (which they are) rather than “isn’t this situation terrible” or (worse) – nothing at all. Which I like, honestly. If a consenting adult wants to get into prostitution, thats their business – we have enough welfare most aren’t doing it to keep from starving – but thirteen year olds need to be protected.
LOVE the blog btw. If I fail my post-grad, part of the blame lies with you :)
I say yes, because it is never going to go away no matter how much work the police do. It is better to have it legalized for saftey issues. <– this view can be seen with abortion too.. im just sayin.
Isn’t it the oldest profession out there? People still haven’t accepted that?
“Contrary to what the right-wingers may have thought, the country didn’t degenerate into a nation of violence and sexual abuse.”
Damn!
Like Korny, I’m a New Zealander. While legalizing prostitution hasn’t solved every problem that accompanies such an industry, most people would concede that it has made the oldest profession both safer and more transparent, and it means police are concentrating efforts on more serious crime and not setting up silly stings in massage parlours and on streetwalkers. While it’s not a job I’d ever want my children doing (mainly because prostitution for me connotes a lack of self-regard, and I believe many people think that the definition of “prostitute” is “a disposable human”) I’m sure they’d be safer doing it now than they would have been a few years ago.
The nice thing in the past few years as New Zealand has decriminalised homosexuality and prostitution, and removed the defense of reasonable physical force from the section of the crimes’ act dealing with a parent’s assault on a child (dishonestly called by its opponents the ‘anti-smacking bill’) is that none of these moves have led to the social disintegration that the ‘morality police’ have predicted.
Rather, we have become more tolerant and more diverse as a result—we have openly gay members of parliament (even the world’s first transsexual MP) and we are, I think, more tolerant and accepting of difference. I like the way my children are growing up in a society that is less judgmental about personal choice in the bedroom, and doesn’t have a rigid definition of family, and wants to at least accord some protection and human rights to a person who, for whatever reason, wishes to use their own body as a means of income. Anyway, prostitution seems to me to be much less demeaning than the degrading lives some of the ‘Quiverful’ women I’ve been reading about, or anyone else whose religious morality designates them a second-class person.
We still have some terrible murders of prostitutes (but far less than the murders of women in heterosexual marriages), and I’ve no doubt there are still women being exploited, although I’d guess far less.
My understanding is that not all prostitutes are happy mind you. With decriminalisation more people have entered the industry, or set themselves up privately, prices have fallen, and customers are demanding more for less–with activities like anal sex–once a fringe activity for which more was charged, now part of the standard practice. But more women can set up privately, without a predatory pimp, and advertise themselves publicly on a site like workinggirls.co.nz (DON’T FOLLOW THIS LINK ON A PUBLIC COMPUTER!) Thus there is an accessible record of who they deal with, and the attendant safety that comes with it.
Well said, and thanks for the New Zealander insight.
If making objects of people is popular, if all the cool people say so, then why have any legal restraints? Is that what I hear you all saying?
It really 2 issues;
1- is it a social problem at all?
2- If it is a problem should the government attempt to curb it?
If it were another social problem would we all cast off the legal bondage?
Prostitution is illegal in the United States? It is not illegal in Canada, although people seem to think it is. What is illegal are things such as being a pimp, soliciting in a public place, and soliciting minors. But prostitution itself is perfectly legal in Canada.
And in related news, Annie Lobert, founder of Hookers for Jesus, will be appearing on Nightline on March 26 when the investigative news show tackles the tough question, “Is Satan for Real?”
You know, there’s almost no point to parodying American culture.
But Daniel, it’s IMMORAL!
Sheesh, some people just don’t understand that God loves us, which is why He sets these rules for us to live by. Society as a whole, whether or not they believe in God, MUST RESPECT HIS LAWS.
This is just unacceptable.
they might as well go ahead and legalize both prostitution and polygammy in all the states that legalized queerism. if you’re going to let men wank men, why not let a dude have 2 or wives? or why not let whores make a buck? the law lets a whore do it with every guy in the city for free, so why not for money? from a simple legal standpoint and antidiscrimination, perhaps even sexual preference issue, not legalizing prostitution is unconstitutional. What is it the 14th ammendment that bans discrimination based on gender, which the liberal judges interpret to also include sexual preference? Ok, well what if someone’s sexual preference isn’t just gender-bases but fee based. While some people prefer men or women, perhaps others prefer free or not free. So, isn’t it discrimination against their sexual preference to tell them they have to do it for free when they prefer to do it for money? Where’s the ACLU when you need ‘em?
To your question, Daniel. ABSOLUTELY. I’ve always thought it was ridiculous to tell people what they can and can’t do with their bodies, including who they can have sex with and if there is an exchange of money to do so. (Provided all parties are consenting adults, of course.) Falling under the same rules and regulations as other workers…all the better.
and what about freedom of religion. there were religions in ancient times that had temple prostitutes. so if you opened a temple to Baal, could you get away with having prostitutes at the door? Based on the second amendment you should be able to right? So, perhaps you all will find that you might want to believe in a god after all since you want whores so much.
Making any type of un-coerced sexual relation illegal is ridiculous in my opinion. However, when a woman’s financial situation is what leads her to enter or remain in a sexual arrangement that she would otherwise not enter or remain in, I think there is cause for concern. Of course the problem can’t be solved by criminalising her actions (or the actions of her partner/s). Criminalising any form of financial need driven or other need-driven activity just doesn’t work – you have to address the situation that created the need.
I do think that sex work is very different from other kinds of work however – particularly for women. The whole sex industry is just a sad distraction from real life and real feelings in my opinion. Nothing to criminalise per se, but a sorry very state of affairs for both men and women.
I find this particularly amusing as I live in NZ, and managed today to shock an exchange student in my class when this very issue was mentioned.
Legalised prostitution is good. It’s a lot safer for the women involved and, as a recent doco showed, there are a lot higher standards for brothels now that they have to comply with occupational health standards. This means that the girls have to be regularly tested, there ae drug regulations and the men get checked out before any arrangement is entered into. The women are able to be businesswomen, rather than just whores. NIMBYs have caused regional bylaws to come into place, usually about where brothels can be set up (not around schools and churches, some residential areas). These women pay taxes, support the economy and provide a service.
I find a lot of people have a problem reconciling women using their bodies in this way with their own expectations of women and sex – emotional involvement and attachment – and thier “moral” expectations of how women should and should not use their bodies.
What I don’t get is why it’s okay to pay someone to have sex with you if you’re filming it and are going to sell it, but if there’s no camera there it’s not legal.
okay.
I live in Cardiff, where brothels are tolerated by the authorities as being much safer for all involved, clients and prostitutes. We don’t get street-walkers here anymore, nor the associated street crime and drug abuse. Prohibition demonstrably doesn’t work – control does.
Americans forget that we have a state right here in the US of A where it’s already legalized – Nevada – which also hasn’t collapsed. Legalize prostitution in specific areas (in NV, it’s anywhere under a certain population density; essentially, not Vegas or Reno). Like any other business zoning.
In general I think the US could benefit from looking abroad at the actual impact of policies we’re considering here and that they already have, whether we’re talking about legalizing marijuana, gay marriage, or even (silly though it is) cursing on public media. Driving around Ireland one day I heard an interview with Colin Farrell that taught me eight new ways to use the F-word. Again, Ireland doesn’t seem to have collapsed.
Legalize prostitution? Great idea, everybody wins.
Do you have a sister or a daughter? Waitaminnit… rethink required here.
“Also are you aware that the majority of sex workers have been sexually abused during their childhood? – As a result of this many of them have difficultly conceptualising themselves as someone who might have real value as anything other than a sexual being.”
********************************
Even if this was true. so what? How does the fact that a particular profession or trade attracts people who have some type of childhood issue or otherwise have some type of personality problem make the profession itself “wrong”? This is a classic red herring argument. Some have acute shyness which attracts them to the computer programming industry, as it’s something they do with little interaction with other people. Based on this logic, computer programming is hence wrong.
The take home message is that it’s sometimes not good for some people with certain issues to work in certain fields. But it’s their choice and right to do so. And that does no make the indestry or trade as a whole wrong.
“I do think that sex work is very different from other kinds of work however – particularly for women. The whole sex industry is just a sad distraction from real life and real feelings in my opinion. Nothing to criminalise per se, but a sorry very state of affairs for both men and women.”
*******************************
Actually I agree with the first statement. It is not your normal run-of-the-mill job. But again, so what? Because prostitution is “different” from other kinds of work, that makes it wrong? Many professions have unusual or demanding physical or emotional requirements and are not suited for the population as a whole. Off the top of my head the following come to mind – boxing, professional fireman, soldier, etc. If the unusual requirements for these professions are OK, but those for prostitution are wrong, it really points to sex being the problem.
my gf is only 16 and shes in newzeland right now should i be worryed about her ?
far less worried than you should be in places with illegal prostitution.
Unlike other parts of the world, in NZ no one can be forced into prostitution, because the industry and police work together to create a safe environment.
Plus, although she’s over the age of consent here, she’d need to be 18 to work in the sex industry.
That’s the shift that Elliot Spitzer was trying to make in NY: focus on the Johns and cut out prostitution from the demand side.
And then, well…
When patriarchal societies put a huge value on the legitimate paternity of offspring who will inherit the family fortune, there will always be control of women’s sexual behaviour. That’s where a lot of it comes from.
That’s a long and complicated question. I *think* is goes back to the platonic philosophy that Christians absorbed, which suggested a divide between body and spirit. Things of the spirit were good and pure, things of the body are base and profane. Sex, which was a thing of the body which created more bodies, was the ultimate base act.
It’s certainly true that many early Christians emphasized celibacy. Paul does, though this may be because he thought the world was ending and that we should focus on spreading the good news of salvation. Even after the church lost in apocalyptic ideas, they retained this notion that the best Christians remained celibate, refused to get marries, and lived lives of self-denial. The heroes were holy man (and the occasional woman) who left a marriage to go live in the desert and deprive themselves of everything.
Karen Armstrong points out that there is a similarity between what Mother Ann Lee (founder of the Shakers) and St. Augustine (founder of the church) said about sex. There seems to be a current of this kind of anti-sex thinking that runs through Christianity, from the beginning until today.
It’s not to demonize sex but to not legitimize making objects of people.
Nevada
And Rhode Island, but brothels and street prostitution are illegal.
That’s it? Just two states? Dang.
Right now, I don’t think Nevada makes a very good case for legalizing prostitution in the rest of the country. According to the US government, Las Vegas is the #1 destination for victims of human trafficking in the world.
” he is no longer a great role for pimps. Many women turn to prostitution in their youth to fund their studies or save enough for deposit on a house and then drop out. ”
mark: If legalizing it will get rid of pimps then that alone makes the it a good idea.
Of course it should be strongly regulated, so that everyone is protected including the public.
Also how often to people have sex for benefit’s in other areas such as.
Promotions on jobs.
easier work load.
Money directly. ( I have heard of women at work being propositioned directly for sex for money)
Movie or television roles.
Promotion and advancement in the music industries.
I could list more examples but I think my point is made. I guess I’M wondering if prostitution maybe isn’t a natural by product of the human sex drive?
vorjack, I am always happy to read your posts. That was very well-put. In addition, Christianity inherited the Judaic mores about sex (which, as others noted, are rooted in patriarchal lineage concerns). That, combined with platonic dualism and the concern of Jesus’ “imminent” return, made for a very problematic approach to human sexuality. Since few Christians want to completely throw out Pauline teachings on sex (even though they’re antiquated by orders of magnitude and stupid to boot), theologians and churches are left to try to rationalize those teachings with our contemporary situations.
I live in Nevada, and that statistic is misleading. The human trafficking does not occur in the legal brothels (present and legal in any county with a population less than 500,000). The trafficking is occurring in Clark County (read Las Vegas) in illegal prostitution like the escort services and standard street walkers particularly in the Asian community. There is a discussion going on now about legalizing it entirely which would help clean up the problem. It wouldn’t eliminate it completely, but that holds true anywhere. Nevada has never had an incident of STD transmission in one of its legal brothels as it is highly regulated and controlled. Legalizing prostitution would fix a number of issues in regard to crime, disease, and human trafficking.
“The human trafficking does not occur in the legal brothels”
I would imagine that any brothel using slave labor would be an “illegal brothel,” so this is correct without being informative.
The problem is that prostitution and human trafficking seem to go together. The Netherlands seem to have the same problem. So legalization and regulation don’t automatically solve the problem.
“The problem is that prostitution and human trafficking seem to go together. The Netherlands seem to have the same problem. So legalization and regulation don’t automatically solve the problem”
And I said as much in my post. There is no total solution to the problem, but legalization would help narrow enforcement efforts. The more available legal, safe brothels are to the masses, the less inclined they will be to patronize the illegal as they won’t have to worry about arrest, disease, etc.
Will this work everywhere? Of course not, but I can only comment on the area I know and live in.
And sorry about the response being out of order; it seems we reached a ceiling on replies…
I was thinking of the religious right-wing. The
immoral majority and all that.“Anna Reed says she loved working as a prostitute – “I had sex, money and men!” – and resents enduring cliches about a job no-one in her right mind could willingly embrace.
“We get so pissed off when politicians portray us as victims,” she says. ”
She maybe speaking for her peer or heeself, but prositution business is still darker than her will now, I thought.
The benefit lies in the millions of votes that don’t go in your favour next election day if you legalize and tax what many find morally wrong as a result of religious beliefs.
Politicians aren’t stupid. Survival trumps tax dollars rolling in on almost every score.
This is the same argument that is used to keep drugs from being legalized. People say that if heroine is legalized, then everyone is going to start using heroine. This is just ridiculous. People who want to use heroine, will… and the rest of the people won’t. I grew up around junkies, drugs were always readily available whenever I wanted them- and I never once used them.
It’s the same argument for abortion. People thought that if abortion was legal, every pregnant girl was going to get one or people were going to start using it as a regular form of birth control. But the reality was the people who wanted to have an abortion were able to get one without endangering their lives at some illegal back-alley abortionist, and the people who didn’t want abortions didn’t have them. It kept it clean, safe, and regulated.
The same goes for sex/prostitution. Multiple-partner sex is commonplace. The sex industry is everywhere. You can get a hooker anytime you want… it’s just unsafe, and you don’t know if that hooker or partner is clean. To legalize and regulate an already existing industry would enforce that industry to meet certain standards and protect the people who work the industry as well as those who utilize the services. The people who would never pay for sex still won’t go to a hooker. And the people who would pay for sex can go on about their lives not infecting future partners with harmful and potentially deadly diseases.
No matter what our “moral” stand is on these issues, common sense needs to come into play.. as well as protecting our society from diseases and the workers in this industry from harm. Our society is made up of so many different people from so many different walks of life that our laws need to protect everyone. And legalizing prostitution is one way to protect the workers AND the public.
You can’t make something illegal because it’s seen as “gross”. That’s just silly.
So you want prostitution kept illegal so that you won’t have to share?
There’s already “an industry of people who do it for their occupation.” We’re just discussing whether to legalize it, tax it, and offer the workers the benefits of labour law.
And you’re concerned that it’s icky?
Thanks reckoner,
One of the most nauseating pieces of hypocrisy I’ve ever seen was a US programme called “Cops” (I think) in which large testosterone fueled lawmen entrap bewildered young prostitutes on film. I have no doubt that many of those mighty morality-warriors have paid for sex themselves, while the rest go home from a ‘hard’ day’s work and beat-off or act out prostitute fantasies with their long-suffering wives. It’s the patriarchy at its most hypocritical. How many judges, politicians and lawmen are inevitably discovered on the books of persecuted prostitutes?
NZ is far from perfect. We have a sickeningly high imprisonment rate, we have had a series of child murders that is a national shame, our safety net for the underclass isn’t as good as it should be. BUT we aren’t as hypocritical as we once were, and religious morality isn’t used to degrade and control large sections of our population. Both our last Prime Minister (Helen Clark) and our current one (John Key) are not religious believers, even though one is politically of the left and the other the right. And, generally, no one cares. In fact, I’d say an atheist Prime Minister who isn’t captured by a particular doctrine, is a good thing in most people’s eyes. Strong religious belief is likely to lose you an election in my country–and that’s one thing I am really proud of.
Hear-hear!!
We had our election within a week of the states and the difference in what is important was really rammed home to me in a way it never was before.
No, this isn’t hypocrisy. Well, it would be, if they actually did what you think they maybe might do. But as you don’t have any reason to jump to these conclusions, it’s merely slander.
It’s not a matter of condoning objectification. I would quickly be put in the “crazy feminist” category because of my beliefs, and objectifying women (or anyone at all for that matter) makes me ill. BUT keeping people safe IS a priority. Objectification is everywhere- and no, it’s not cool. But what’s even worse then objectification is AIDS. Remember AIDS? I know it doesn’t get as much attention now-a-days as it used to… but it’s still alive and well, and killing people in insane numbers.
Prostitution is called the “oldest profession” because it’s been around forever, and isn’t going anywhere anytime soon. The government or social stigma isn’t going to make it go away. And keeping it in dark alleys is just making it more dangerous. Prostitutes getting beaten by pimps and clients (and abused by law enforcement); disregard for transmitting STD’s; etc.
No matter what our personal opinions are about it, it needs to be safe and regulated for everyone involved.
Thanks Maaark, nobody has ever called me cool before (although I have been on the receiving end of heavy-handed sarcasm often enough to recognise it).
Taking your question seriously, I think Kristen is right, prostitution is never going to go away (check out the whore houses in Pompeii). The problem is that making it illegal has also made it possible for defenseless people to be exploited and criminalised, while those in power hypocritically condemn and profit from such activities.
I’m not suggesting it shouldn’t be controlled. Prostitution can be regulated without being criminalised–a case in point happened here recently, where City Council by-laws were employed to prevent a brothel opening in a residential zone near a school.
I think it is a social issue, more than a social problem. Given that it is inevitably going to happen, let’s make sure it is safe, so girls and women (and male prostitutes of course) are less likely to be exploited and treated violently; let’s tax it openly and use that money that was previously lost to the black economy for social good; let’s free up police resources to concentrate on serious crimes against people and property; let’s put it in agreed areas so that it doesn’t confront sections of our community that we’d prefer not to be associated with it, like schools and kindergartens (as we do now with liquor stores, casinos, bars, gambling facilities etc), let’s make sure precautions are taken against STDs and so on.
But Maaark, I don’t get the feeling that you’re worried about a “social problem”. Why don’t you admit that you’re worried about a moral problem, about sexuality unregulated by Christian morality. The god of the bible has always been inordinately concerned with what people do with their genitals–he’s rather a smutty voyeur in my opinion.
Making objects of people isn’t a problem for anyone. One need only do a quick surevey of magazine advertising for shoes, handbags, cigarettes, and any number of other products.
On the other hand, using the image of a naked person to sell sex is wrong and bad and frowned upon from a great height.
The conclusion appears to be that truth in advertising is what is being punished.
Yeah right. Nobodies votes will change. They can ram-rod it through unanimously and then the voters have no choice.
The NIMBY and BANANA stuff can go to ridiculous extremes. Apparently, some communities oppose the zoning variances for motels to prevent them from being built, on the basis that a motel in a town makes it easier for people to patronize prostitutes.
Cause obviously a motel couldn’t possibly have other uses.
So, how bad has it gotten in Amsterdam?
NEDERLAND!
“But Maaark, I don’t get the feeling that you’re worried about a “social problem”. Why don’t you admit that you’re worried about a moral problem, about sexuality unregulated by Christian morality. The god of the bible has always been inordinately concerned with what people do with their genitals–he’s rather a smutty voyeur in my opinion.”
Foul! I would appreciate you to hear me and not a projection.
It’s a half truth of course. Sacredness of sexuality is biblical and it could also be healthy for a society. But your are very wrong in saying that god is inordinately concerned with sexual issues. When I read Israel’s prophets; Isaiah, Mikah god is more concerned about their treatment of the poor. I agree that xians in America can make it inordinate. But I am trying to not project that on the biblical god. And it would be great if you met xians who also see social issues as broader than sex. So I do believe there is a cultural battle and the abuse of sex is one issue among many.
BTW many ancient cultures have a deep regard for the sacredness of sexuality. It’s not just a Christian issue. Actually I wish more Christians realized this. Buddha said it is not good for a man to live lustfully.
Queerism?
Ummmm…..what on earth are you talking about?
You’re a sorry sack of crap and a horrible excuse for a human being. :)
You’re no true Christian.
Gaydaism is the word I usually use. I thought I’d clean it up a bit.
I’m totally at a loss for words on how to approach this level of ignorance.
what, no animals?
“Based on the second amendment you should be able to right?”
What does gun ownership have to do with taking whores to church?
Oh… got it. I got confused because I usually use the term “providing-inalienable-civil-rights-to-all-citizens-regardless-of-sexual-orientation-ism”.
I’m saying that it isn’t fair to consider men wanting to defile other men’s anuses to be a civil rights issue and not to also consider polygamy and prostitution to be civil rights issue. If the right to defile another man’s anus is a civil right, then the right to buy a whore for an hour or two is a civil right too.
So the first amendment then. Whatever.
The right to bear arms….to bear a few whore around your arms….get it?
They can use their right in private and keep quiet about it. Don’t ask don’t tell should extend to all society not just the military.
Yeah, because it’s working so well in the military, isn’t it?
Besides, how would you feel if “don’t ask, don’t tell” applied to you? If you had to hide an essential part of your personality? If you had to pretend that your wife was just your room-mate, who was helping out with the rent? If you were forbidden from making any overt display of affection?
I bet you’d be pretty pissed off that you were being forced into a situation like that, right? But so long as it’s just those un-people over there, and not real human beings like you, who cares, right?
It’s unfortunate you’ve decided to take this tone, although it’s at least easy to see who you are from the words you use.
You should try to work on your homophobia.
Oh, come on marcion… you never asked your girl for oral or a bit of anal? I mean, it’s all the same isn’t it?
Oh, wait, I’m assuming you can get a girl…
Just in case I wasn’t clear…
It’s nunya business what people do in their bedrooms. Do you want the government regulating YOUR sexlife?
Homophobia is morally reprehensible.
LRA – Don’t you know, it’s only “defiling” when it’s between men. (Note he made no mention of lesbians “defiling” each other.)
I sincerely hope, for Marcion’s sake, that he never gets convicted of a serious crime and sent to the pen… cuz… you know…
Maaark…. it’s understood that you see “abuse of sex” as a major issue- but you’re living in a society with millions of people with millions of different standards and rules of behavior. With so many varied ways of life and standards, the only thing that a government of a “free society” can do is work towards keeping the members of that society safe and healthy in any way they can. If an adult wants to have sex with multiple other adults, and everyone is consenting- who is anyone to tell them not to? You? Because you see it as immoral? Who is one person to judge another person’s morals if everyone involved is a consenting adult? Your mixing your spiritual belief structure (no matter what it may be) with politics… and you just can’t do that in a society where we are free to believe whatever we want (or have no religious or spiritual beliefs at all). Your God has no place in someone’s life who doesn’t believe in him/her/whatever.
I personally hate the fact that the sex industry is so huge. Porn, prostitution, teenagers thinking that being a stripper is the coolest thing ever- all of it makes me sad. BUT we don’t live in culture of happy feelings and “Care Bear Stares”… so we have to face the reality of what IS going on, and deal with it in a way that protects the people who have chosen this occupation, as well as the people who are patrons of their occupation.
Do we want everyone to find their soulmate and have happy “Molly Ringwald movie ending” kindof life? Of course! The reality- sorry, it’s not going to happen. So we all have to grow up, get over our hangups, and deal with this as logical adults.
In my head, Marcion is joking. Because for me to take his statement seriously will induce vomitting.
It just seems to me that if Christ did exist, based on my two go-to sources of his teachings – Brian Dannelly’s Saved! and Mel Gibson’s The Passion of the Christ – and my own interpretations, he would be quite open-minded and much more tolerant of everyone than most present-day believers.
That would make us pro-choice, pro-equal rights, peace, love and happiness-for-everybody atheists better followers than most Christians.
Weird.
@Kristen Ferrell: love the ink.
Thank you so much!
:D
and to add on, I support prostitution legalization.
That’s a really, really good point.
Hahha, wow. I never thought of it like that before, that’s brilliant.
People are objects of one sort or another. So, if that’s your concern, find a new one.
As opposed, say, to slavery. Which the Bible wholeheartedly supports in several instances.
Or is that the old Bible that no longer applies to anything except teh gays?
I can never keep track of what’s valid doctrine and what’s pure Bronze-age poetry.
Religions are still required to obey the law of the land, regardless of their beliefs. A religion that practice human sacrifice would be forced to leave out this act, or would be quickly shut down.
Or are you arguing that anyone should be allowed to do anything, so long as they claim it’s their religion?
Another law honoured, I have no doubt, more in the breach than in the earnest prosecution of the offence.
Sorry–to clarify: Laws against incest are the ones I was referring to.
Actually, I believe that some jurisdictions keep it totally illegal. Others, such as BC (Canada’s porn and prostitution Mecca), have a hypocritical law saying that while prostitution is legal, communicating about it in any form is a no-no.
i have a problrem with objectification. I might not if it was a gender equal issue but it isn’t. In the UK just lately it has become completely acceptable to publish magazine covers (Loaded, Nuts etc) with entirely naked models on the cover with their nipples/genitals only obscured by printed stars advertising features in the mag. When this becomes common practice with male models, on all womens magazines, every week/month then it might be ok. In the menatime it pupport the idea that women are a commodity which can be bought and sold.
You have to consider the markets. Will naked men and their flaccid or erect penises sell more copies of Cosmo?
The tits and bums are on mens mags because it sells the mag. Yes that makes us a bit sad, but that’s the way it is.
I’m certain there’s no legal issues, or societal moral issues around putting naked men on womens magazines, it just probably won’t help sell magazines and that’s all the advertisers care about.
Deanna, I’m not sure it’s about morals exactly. Have you ever been felt up by someone you’re not attracted to? Or kissed someone you don’t find attractive?
Also, do you have any friends who’ve worked in the industry? If yes, have they ever really revealed much about what they think of the majority of their clients? think about it.
Also are you aware that the majority of sex workers have been sexually abused during their childhood? – As a result of this many of them have difficultly conceptualising themselves as someone who might have real value as anything other than a sexual being.
And it’s not just about females btw, male sex workers have just as bad a time. No one is made for sex with anyone they aren’t attracted to. And even if there is attraction, no one is made for sex as often as sex workers have to do it.
Sock, I agree with your first comment on Marcion 100%–he’s the smelliest lump of pond scum we’ve ever had here.
BUT from my perspective (ex-Christian now atheist) he’s true of a huge number of Christians. Have you ever seen some of the mail PZ Myers posts from ‘Christians’? I’ll bet Daniel has had some pretty terrible emails. I knew quite a few Christians just like Marcion. So, while I agree that he doesn’t represent the highest ideals of Christianity, he’s a true Christian of a sort–the intolerant, hating, small-minded sort that work so hard to diminish others. Marcion is the reason I bother with blogs like this, the reason (you might say) I don’t mind being known as a militant atheist. The John C’s of this world will never hurt anyone–never want to hurt anyone. But Marcion’s Christianity is about hatred and intolerance–and those sorts of people just love a bit of power over others. He turns my stomach–and it’s his sort of religion that I’m happy to evangelise against.
To all you wavering Christians. Don’t side with filth like Marcion. I highly recommend atheism–discover a personal morality that has nothing to do with being spied on by the sky man; learn to be good for your own sake, your family’s sake, your community’s sake–not because you’re scared of hell or think it will earn you brownie points; learn to love the present and live for the now, not some mythical hereafter; learn that you weren’t ‘created in sin’, you are a healthy natural product of a marvelous biological process; stop being afraid of death–it’s no different to not having been born yet.
It’s not surprising: marcion’s Christianity – a shockingly different brand than that of John C – is losing its grip on humanity. We can all expect it to go wildly kicking and screaming into extinction.
Thought the RIAA suing grandmas and tweens was low-ball? I can only imagine what marcion’s version has in store to fight off its waning popularity.
I would suggest John C practices a harmless, mostly private Christianity; it’s abstract, but mostly filled with inner peace and tolerance.
Delusional? In my humble opinion, yes. Destructive? No.
Oh, I know this. I know there are many “Christians” who are as far from Christlike as possible, yet still call and are called “Christian” in their belief structure.
I think it’s deplorable and evil.
However, I also realize that people like that really cling to their tag as “Christian”. I figure it’s a real insult when an -atheist- says to a believer “You’re no true Christian”.
I agree reckoner. while John C’s Christianity doesn’t attract me, John as a person (at least the person I know from this blog) seems a good bloke. He doesn’t have Marcion’s ‘pull the wings off flies’ obnoxiousness. He seems gentle, and he’s striving for some form of inner peace–and there’s nothing wrong with that. Sam Harris is all for meditation, as I recall.
Yes, perhaps you’re right about the death throes of Marcion and his ilk. Now there’s an appealing analogy—intolerant Christianity (or even better, Religion generally) going the way of the dinosaurs. Can’t wait to se that display in the creation museum :)
Yep, almost as insulting as a christian telling an atheist he or she has no morality simply because they don’t believe in gods.
I’d never tall a Marcion he’s no true christian, because I don’t believe ‘true’ christianity confers and moral superiority or innate goodness. But he’s pretty damned representative of a lot of christians I know, and I don’t blame a nicer christian like you seem to be for wanting to shut him up.
As a human, however, I feel quite comfortable telling Marcion that his bigoted, intolerant, hating mind reeks, and christian or not, he’s a sad bastard. Here’s my problem with the bible though: you probably find in it all the material you need to direct you to a good life; but Marcion can read the same book and find all the material he needs in it to lead a hating life.
My argument is that good people like you, can be just as moral, kind, upright and happy without having to cherry pick from a book of ancient superstition about an angry and hating deity. If you were to debunk the book and just be your own true self, then the Marcion’s of this world would be increasingly exposed and marginalised.
Just to clarify, I’m an atheist. But, I do agree with your point. More Christians need to draw their faith from something other than the Bible.
Hmmm… why don’t we ask some of the working girls how many cops expect a freebie?
I can only speak for the NZ police, but we’ve had huge scandals here where a macho police culture has abused, degraded and denigrated women (with a number sent to jail for multiple rape). I’ve known quite a few police who think women are trash–particularly hookers. I also know that NZ police are seen as pussies compared to their US counterparts. I’m certainly not saying all are like that–and I agree I overstated my objection to COPS for effect. But these prostitute stings, with half a dozen huge guys in stab-proof vests, acting like defenders of the free world while they bust some sad little crack whore doesn’t merit any respect, especially not when they strut it on television.
Slander? Maybe. Arrant hypocrisy? YOU BET!
Oh hell yeah.
That’s something I’ve never understood. “Curse words”. What the hell. That makes NO SENSE!
Especially since we can say “poop”, “sex”, “shoot”, “darn” or any other euphemism. It’s just… ARGH. So stupid. So bloody stupid.
If your enthusiasm was sarcastic, and your comment on the sister/daughter was meant to be a “duh” revelation… then I feel like I should point this out.
Not every female is just waiting to become a prostitute. If the illegality of prostitution is all that keeps your sister and/or daughter off of the street corners, then you should probably talk to them about that.
If, however, there was no sarcasm in that statement, then it made no sense. Care to elaborate?
That would be a better way to get at the truth than just assuming you already know, yes.
So you feel justified in accusing one group of being rapists, based on the behaviour of another group, half a world away in a different society, working under a different legal system?
I’d be very surprised to learn that no police officer in America is a serial rapist; I’d also be very surprised to learn that the average American police officer as anywhere near as corrupt or vicious as they’re depicted on TV dramas.
Yes, accusing the officers depicted on a particular episode of Cops as being rapists and wife beaters (as you did in your original post “for effect”) is absolutely slander, especially if your only evidence is “Cops in New Zealand are like that, and cops in America must be even worse”.
Yes, you’re right.
I withdraw and apologise–my dislike of that particular programme caused me to over state things, and make sweeping generalisations of the very sort I usually detest.
You were right to call me on that one. I apologise to any law enforcer who feels slandered. And to American’s for assuming they’re bigger and badder than my own small country.
is it the markets of the punters? or is it a bit of both? i think we live in a culture of ‘what you can get away with’ theres no moral responsibility in media whatsoever.
from the stories I’ve heard, it’s a long way from objectification when it’s legal. Because the women are allowed to say no to any clients they don’t like, they soon build up a rapport with their regulars in the same way as anyone else in a service industry. One woman who eventually retired from prostitution still keeps in touch with a few of her former clients as friends.