by VorJack
My first job in the field was pretty boring. Now folks, I’m an archivist. My job is sorting other people’s old paperwork, and I like it. If I tell you that a job is boring, that means it would probably calcify the hair on your nether regions. This was a coma-inducing job.
Worse, it involved sitting in a small room, filled with filing cabinets, with no windows or natural light, and only one other person there to keep you sane. The other person turned out to be a more advanced student, someone that I had never met before. Within five minutes I heard him say, “I believe all truth comes from the bible …”
Just f’n shoot me, OK?
He was a graduate of Pensacola Christian College, a rock-ribbed conservative and a fundamentalist evangelical Christian. He was also a decent guy, an ex-marine and a family man. But we were stuck in a situation where a running conversation was the only thing keeping us from turning our staple removers on our own jugular.
I had been an atheist for several years by that point, but I quickly decided that discretion is better part of valor. Turning that little room into a verbal battleground was just not going to work. I “rediscovered” my Episcopal faith in a hurry and developed a spurious moderate theology on the fly. I kept it up for six months, and I don’t think I let anything slip. (“I hear you have kids. Are they tasty?”)
I’ve had to pull the same trick around other people. My in-laws, my Catholic supervisor, at work after Passion of Christ came out, at family reunions with my southern relatives. I’m a pragmatic man, and I’d rather avoid conflict when I don’t think there’s anything to be gained from it.
So how about you? Can you fake it? Should you?
The question, of couse, is: why would you? Why do all these people have the right to proclaim there own personal beliefs, but would you have to be silent about your lack of it?
To be honest, I do the same, sometimes. Mostly because I don’t feel like firing up any useless discussions. But how far would you go? What if these people invite you to pray with them? Sing along with them? I would find it impossible to do such things. In the end it is always better to be honest. If people cannot accept how you are, they’re probably not worth your attention.
And: boring job? It sounds more like a Kafkaesque situation… Good for a story ;-)
Very much the same unfortunately. I wish atheism was as accepted in the US as other religions but it’s not.
I see all these fundy types playing the victim all the time, pretending that their Christian Faith is being so subjugated by Secularism/Atheism/Liberalism, but the fact is when’s the last time they had to hide their faith from us doubting toms?
So here’s my story,
A little over a year and a half ago I moved to a small college town for a job. I was just out of college and needed to grab job in my field desperately. I couldn’t afford my own place so I found a place on Craig’s List. First I should point out that the “college” was the largest Quaker school in the state. So I found a woman interesting in renting a room in her townhouse. Turns out she’s a former Jahovahs Witness turned mainstream evangelical.
You may have had to work with your fundy I had to LIVE with this person. I lasted four months and still got a good reference, but I only made it by crawling back into the closet. If she had found out how I really feel about her “faith” I would have been tossed out on my ass in hours.
A few things I learned:
1- A lot of the religious right was as pissed of at GWB as the rest of us
2- Pretending to be a non-practicing catholic is a great way to shut off any attempts at “conversion”
Things she learned:
1- How to properly cook a rib roast
2- Never buy a WiFi router at Fred Meyer
PS:
I should note that during the last presidential election the college in this particular town found an effigy of Barack Obama hanging from a tree at one point.
One has to really wonder, what WOULD Jesus do?
I never had to confront myself with a true fundie, but most of the people around me are believers.
Here’s Easter and everyone is taken by religious fervor.
So I try not to indulge too much in showing off my “being an atheist”.
If asked, I answer punctually.
I make my position clear and never attack.
If I feel like asking delicate questions, I accept whatever response I get and never insist further.
Most Christians around here are very reasonable and acknowledge that their choice is not rational and often only a matter of culture (I’m currently living in Greece).
I feel no need to make my point unless explicitly asked.
When someone speaks to me about his faith I just listen and try not to judge.
This allows me to preserve my integrity and usually results in very friendly reactions; none tries to “convert” me and often they try to justify their position instead.
I’m rocking the Nietzsche at the moment:
39. Nobody will very readily regard a doctrine as true merely because it makes people happy or virtuous–excepting, perhaps, the amiable “Idealists,” who are enthusiastic about the good, true, and beautiful, and let all kinds of motley, coarse, and good-natured desirabilities swim about promiscuously in their pond. Happiness and virtue are no arguments. It is willingly forgotten, however, even on the part of thoughtful minds, that to make unhappy and to make bad are just as little counter- arguments. A thing could be TRUE, although it were in the highest degree injurious and dangerous; indeed, the fundamental constitution of existence might be such that one succumbed by a full knowledge of it–so that the strength of a mind might be measured by the amount of “truth” it could endure–or to speak more plainly, by the extent to which it REQUIRED truth attenuated, veiled, sweetened, damped, and falsified. But there is no doubt that for the discovery of certain PORTIONS of truth the wicked and unfortunate are more favourably situated and have a greater likelihood of success; not to speak of the wicked who are happy–a species about whom moralists are silent. Perhaps severity and craft are more favourable conditions for the development of strong, independent spirits and philosophers than the gentle, refined, yielding good-nature, and habit of taking things easily, which are prized, and rightly prized in a learned man. Presupposing always, to begin with, that the term “philosopher” be not confined to the philosopher who writes books, or even introduces HIS philosophy into books!–Stendhal furnishes a last feature of the portrait of the free-spirited philosopher, which for the sake of German taste I will not omit to underline–for it is OPPOSED to German taste. “Pour etre bon philosophe,” says this last great psychologist, “il faut etre sec, clair, sans illusion. Un banquier, qui a fait fortune, a une partie du caractere requis pour faire des decouvertes en philosophie, c’est-a-dire pour voir clair dans ce qui est.”
- Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
So in summary – my ability to ‘fake it’ is limited only by the contempt I feel towards the individual(s) to whom I am ‘faking it’ at any given point in time.
I have tried to fake it since an adolescent Jesus flirtation, but when my favorite aunt announced we were all “descended from Noah” I couldn’t do it anymore. I tried to make her see the error of her ways, and in a non-confrontational way, merely using genetics and well, common sense, but the look on her face showed just how untenable she thought my position.
i personally don’t believe in faking it.
my parents are proud preachers who love the lord and want me to follow in their footsteps. i was into it until about the age of 16 when i actually started to think for myself and realized that god existed to those with the inability to apply basic logic. i faked it for a while but i just couldn’t keep my mouth shut whenevr my dad said something about gay people being sinners . eventually they found out i didn’t buy into the mumbo jumbo. it has led to numerous arguments with them trying to convince me by playing the ‘I’m so hurt card’
here are some of the quips they have thrown at me
” have you come back to your senses”
“you can’t come to god with your intellect”
“you need to have the faith of a child”
“you think you are smarter than god”
after watching the passion of the christ:
“after all the suffering jesus went through for us , anyone who doesn’t believe deserves to go to hell”
“so you believe in evolution. you believe we all came from apes”
“only a fool says there is no god”
surely our relationship has become a little strained but i try to be respectful in my approach.
The fact is that most people are religious and even the ones who aren’t , think it’s uncool to attack religion .
but the way i see it , if no one points it out to them, how would they know
I’m surrounded by believers at work yet I am still able to take a stand for logic and reason(and science) without treading too harshly on any toes. I have taken issue with the girl who says “Jesus” healed her friend of AIDS. They know that I think attending church is a waste of time and a scam. My scarlet A is on my backpack in plainview but no one’s ever asked about it. Last week I wished everyone a Happy Zombie Jesus Day–I’m not sure they even got the joke.
But these are people that I feel comfortable with and since I’ve already proven that I’m worth my weight in gold, my personal beliefs don’t come into play. Plus, the last two hard-core and bigotted “Christians” that worked for us were stealing–one from the cash register to the tune of $25,000 and one from the clock by simply not clocking out when she left.
I do find myself keeping quiet in mixed and unfamiliar company but only on rare occasion. I have found that if I “make my position clear and never attack,” like Francesco, people usually understand that I don’t want to hear their bullshit and keep it to themselves.
Here’s the big BUT: I’ve never had my options so whittled as the previous examples. Close living or working quarters with someone who starts off a conversation with “I believe all truth comes from the Bible…” So I’m not sure how I would react but I think that we should get to be “evangelical” if they can be. It just rubs me wrong when someone wants to use my beliefs, or rather un-, to pigeonhole me and my actions. I say prove yourself worthy independent of “religious” association, beyond reproach, if you will, then be gentle but firm.
That’s my early Saturday morning stance anyway. =D
@cynic,
“mumbo jumbo” makes me laugh. good one.
*Laughs* I’m a collections manager, so I sift through dead people’s stuff the way you sift through dead people’s papers. So far, I’ve not got an officemate, unless you count a black rhino skull in a box on the floor. Luckily, she’s quiet and doesn’t make a mess, so I don’t complain.
But no, I don’t fake it. I simply don’t have the energy anymore. I did at first, as I felt like I had to defend my decision. As time went on, I guess I stopped caring about what other people thought about my ‘religion.’ My husband still does to his parents; I simply excuse myself from the room if the topic arises.
I could fake it but I wouldn’t. They never feel any desire or need to hide who they are (despite claims that they’re being silenced and persecuted) so why should we?
If you are open about your belief, I will surely be open about my unbelief.
I consider myself pragmatic, difference is that I do like confrontation and will not back down if pressed.
Can you imagine what would have happened if all gay people lived in the closet? If the suffragists would have not taken to the streets and confronted people face to face? What if Rosa Parks had moved to the back of the bus because it was more “pragmatic”?
Hell no.
VorJack, the solution is to either move to Australia or grow a pair of bollocks. Your response Down Under would be “Jesus, you Yanks are fücking weird; fancy coming to pub?”
Then get them drunk and they’ll be up for a bit of ‘biblical’ action and you’ll get peace for the next week as they hide in their room trying to rationalise normal human actions (ie: sex – with condoms despite what the former Nazi Party member says how they don’t prevent AIDS) against the witterings of some zombie death cult.
Why the fück governments don’t announce that medical aid is not available to godtards (praying will save you, who needs health insurance) and thus slash public funding is beyond me.
There’s a case being tried in the United States involving a couple of Christian Scientists who thought they could pray away their daughter’s Type I diabetes. They tried to hide behind the First Amendment, but they are on trial for negligent homicide. I hope they wind up in prison. That cult deserves to be sent to join Thuggee.
I did not have bad experiences as a child. My evangelical upbringing was fairly moderate and I admit – I loved the huge dinners, retreats and music. My parents encouraged my scientific interests and once I went to college…
I’m rather sarcastic so my atheism comes in cute quips.
They: “The Lord saved a baby in that earthquake.”
Me: “But he allowed 100,000 to die”
They: “If you don’t believe in Jesus you’re going to hell”
Me: Does that include Elijah, Moses, Noah and King David?
I do NOT pick fights, insult church folks, protest a Xmas tree, picket sports prayers or harangue other on the evil of “In God We Trust” Those things only confirm the stereoptypical atheist – angry at the world, always bitching about something, fighting tradition, etc
The Christmas tree is a pagan mid-winter festival celebratory item adopted by the catholics as they have worldwide. It was (and I think is) thier policy to allow small concessions when indoctrinating a culture to catholicism. For instance, in mexico the day of the dead is a Catholic holiday, in the phillipines men carry crucifixs down the street and hang from them all day to “understand whay christ endured’ originally the natives had a ritual similar to the Sioux Sundance which hangs a person through piercings in the back or chest all day until the pain gives them a vision (or maybe its endorphine overdose).
Anyway, I always have a chrstmas tree as it is not anything but a celebration of the seasons. Those are my holidays, my kids get to celebrate and not feel “left out”, without drawing too much attention to them from bigoted religious children who can be exceptionally cruel to children raised freethinkers.
“you think you are smarter than god”
I’ve found it helpful to reply with,
“I don’t need to be smarter than God; I only need to be smarter than you.”
Well, it helps me, anyway.
I fake it for my evangelical grandparents. My grandfather was an army chaplain and ordained Baptist minister. He died last year, but he used to give me and my brother lectures on the bible and whatnot, and we would just nod in agreement. Interestingly, he never asked us direct questions about or faith, so we never had to actually lie to him – more like lying by exclusion.
Interestingly, since he died, my grandmother has asked me several times about “my relationship with Jesus.” I’ve had to make up my own theology too – she knows I don’t go to church, and she can tell i’m not interested in church, so I just made up some stuff about “yes, I still believe in god and jesus, i’m just looking for the right outlet” or something. It would do zero good for me to tell her what I really think. She is almost 90 years old, reads the bible every day, prays about everything, all that, and even if we think it’s stupid, her faith and her church are very important to her. It would simply crush her to find out I’m an atheist – no good could come of it.
I caught a glimpse of her feelings on the subject a while ago when we were flipping though the TV and she saw Christopher Hitchens being interviewed. She said “I used to like that guy [because he's a conservative], but then I found out he’s atheist and I can’t watch him.” I know she would still love me and want me around whenever possible if she knew I was atheist, but it would just weigh on her heart so much, and it would really cause her pain.
With my Christian in-laws, I took a more direct approach, but still not 100% honest. Before I got married, I talked to my wife’s father, and basically told him that I’m not Christian, and that if I was going to find a church or a religion to join, I would have to start by studying it from a scientific perspective. He used that opportunity to inform me, of course, that Christianity is the most evidence-based major religion. I just nodded and said “ok, i’ll look into it.” I’ve since become even more adamant in my non-beliefs, but have not really felt the drive to share that with my in-laws.
I wouldn’t fake it. Faking it is deception, lying. I just prefer to to be honest and I’m sure my counterpart would appreciate that too. If we’re ever caught in this deception, we just prove the religious’s point about us being lying heathens. I prefer not to give them that ammo.
I was smoking on the smoke pad, around three in the morning on a carrier. I was a nuclear machinist mate for 6 years. It was during the Afghaniland campaign. I had just gotten off of watch, was tired as fuck, and needed to get up in less than five hours to start all over again. As usual, a skittle came up to me. Skittles were the top side cats that worn the different colored jerseys. Not only do their colors indicate their job, it also indicates generally their intelligence level. Cherries are usually the smartest, grapes can’t chew gum and walk at the same time. So anyhoo, I am exhausted and a lime walks up as tells me that I look like I am searching for answer. He begins his little promotional gimmick about how I needed to be ready for when Christ comes and what would he think about how I live my life….
“I don’t think he would allow any of us into heaven” to which he was confused so I elaborated…
“We are on a multi-billion dollar weapons platform, bombing a third world country into a fifth world ruin. Whether we admit it or not, innocent people are getting killed over what a group of individuals did. How could Christ, or any christian person for that matter, justify our actions. We didn’t turn the other cheek.” I was expecting him to actually consider what I said…but I was wrong.
“The aren’t innocent…they’re Muslim”. To which I just started laughing, slapped him on the back and told him I’d see him in hell.
My wife fakes it all the time. She fakes it with her doctor in order to get good medical care. She fakes it with her co-workers so she won’t be ostracized. She fakes it with her boss in order to keep her job.
She never fakes it with me as we are so compatible.
I never fake it. Sometimes I don’t bring it up. As a public school teacher I am not allowed to. Otherwise I let it all hang out.
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Hepius: She never fakes it with me
That’s what all women say ;)
This is actually an issue that I deal with basically every day. Currently, I am living in medium-sized city in central China, but my spoken Chinese is not sufficient to have a real conversation with another human being, and my written Chinese is functionally non-existent, thus my only company is a group of missionaries that (although nice people) range from the sort of people that when I was a believer I found disconcertingly pious in a vague way, to the hard-core YEC, women should be stay-at-home-mom types. Add to this that the Chinese who do speak English well tend to be hardcore Christians (they were mostly taught by the missionaries) and it’s pretty damned lonely to be a English-speaking skeptic here.
My solution is to stay away from their church-y activities and only hang out when suitably secular things are on the agenda. Inevitably it bleeds into everything, so when asked to pray, I don’t bow my head or shut my eyes, but I don’t advertise my views. Sometimes various side issues come up; for instance the other day they asked about what I happened to be reading (which happened to be Neil Shubin’s Your Inner Fish.) After I explained what it was about, the person I happened to be talking to more or less changed the subject. It certainly isn’t perfect; (it’s especially heartbreaking on the few occasions that I’ve met some poor Chinese who has family members that are, or is themselves making some horrible sacrifice for a such a specious doctrine, but I don’t speak up.
Maybe that makes me morally deficient in some respect, but it is a compromise that I make; partially to retain my sanity, and partially out of the intuition that I could give no evidence, nor make any argument that would actually sway these people.
To the extent that I have to, I fake it. However, I’ve found it surprisingly easy (even in Christian circles) to speak without lying.
I’m outnumbered by fundies where I work. I’m against faking it, but I don’t directly confront. I generally ignore statements of faith (“He’s sure testing me”, “God found this for me” etc.) and refuse to be pulled into a conversation about beliefs. If it goes in that direction, I’ll redirect, find something to agree on, or if needed, I stop it by letting them know I think it inappropriate conversation for work.
I respond to chain e-mails with a request to please take me off their forwarding list. If they don’t, I respond with either an explanation of why I disagree with the e-mail or with evidence showing the claims to be false. I don’t get chain e-mails anymore.
I have passive-aggressively changed my wallpaper and screen saver to a shots of the galaxy and some choice Sagan quotes.
So far, this has worked.
Would you expect them to fake atheism for you?
Is it really worth keeping good relations with people who would drop you if you didn’t believe in God? Is preventing awkwardness worth the inner conflicts invited by self-censorship? Is it worth actively contributing to upholding religion and its closed-mindedness?
To the guy at work, you could’ve just said “I don’t believe in God” and left it at that. You would not have been under any obligation to debate him about it. And if he tried debating it with you, you could’ve declined if you didn’t want to invite hostility. Perhaps there’d have been some awkwardness from taking this route, but “no one said this was going to be easy”. And how easy is it self-silence and contribute to the problem?
Family is more difficult, but why should you have to live a lie to protect their pathetically fragile feelings and save yourself from their persecution? What kind of family life are you having if you feel that you have to live a lie for the rest of your life in order for them to think well of you?
Just a devil’s advocate point here – the way I read the original post was as posing the question: is it okay to suppress or misrepresent your beliefs in the interest of peace? Rather than it having to be about atheists being stigmatized, what about anyone who is in an outnumbered or intimidating situation where their faith/non-faith/agnosticism feels dangerous to express? I know I’ve felt both sides of the situation – a believer among non-believers when I was younger (I did fake non-belief, and later felt like I’d sinned) and a non-believer among believers now (I fake it with my grandparents and to a lesser extent to my mom, and feel guilt about lying but that in the end I am only sparing them hurt and fear.) I guess what I’m trying to say is… tolerance. Respectful debate. These are things I wish for from every sector.
@caroline
In a perfect world, maybe.
I find that a common mistake most atheist make is the assumption that the other individual will be as forgiving or understanding when it comes to personal belief.
I refuse to fake it, but I don’t find it necessary to be confrontational or even to proclaim myself an atheist, unless the situation calls for it. Usually questions from work-related people tend to be things like, “what church do you go to”?, or “what denomination are you?” My standard response is: “I’m not religious.” Most people will let it go at that. If they insist on knowing more, then I’m going to tell them.
If there’s an actual major discussion of religion going on, then that’s another matter. I usually can’t resist jumping in. It’s too hard to sit idly by while others loudly proclaim assorted nonsense. And there’s no way I could refuse an invitation to argue with someone who told me they thought all truth came from the Bible. I like asking, “how did we get the current version of the Bible”? and seeing what response I get.
I, also have faked it. I work in an esteemed hospital that flies under a church banner. Lots of my patients are older and talk about god often. I have to shut my mouth, not only is it not polite to tell people my own personal point of view at work, it’s unprofessional. I have a guy at work that witnessess to poeple, before hearing bad news from a cardiologist. Reaks of desparation to me.
I don’t fake it. I was raised a Catholic, quit the church and church classes at twelve (which my mother encouraged at the time), dabbled in Wicca for a few months, and found myself agnostic until I read Richard Dawkin’s “The God Delusion” when I was sixteen. I live in a small town in PA where everyone sees everyone else at some church gathering or another – except me. I don’t fake it, and I don’t feel a need to, nor do I think anyone should.
I don’t bring it up in everyday conversation. I take the stance that most of you above do: honest when asked, but not one to debate it further because it just ends in hurt feelings and unneeded hostility. I’m waiting for college this fall to hopefully be around more open people – nobody in high school seems to be intelligent enough to step back and objectively look at and discuss what they believe, so I don’t try. My blood boils every time I see a WWJD bracelet – not for hostility toward the religion, but for the fact that they can be accepted for their beliefs and nobody questions them, but I’m sure if I were to put a Darwin fish on a tee-shirt, I’d be attacked by half the population. It’s a game of don’t ask, don’t tell, which I hate – I don’t like when people would assume what I believe based on the community where I live. I half to walk away from the few friends I have when they stir up things about religion and politics/war; I can’t fight with them because I would lose the few ties that I have. Even though they know my strong stance on the matter of religion, we have an unwritten agreement not to talk about it to keep the peace.
My mom fakes it. This upsets me, because she and my stepfather are raising my little (four year old) sister as Christian. She says the girl needs something to believe in until she figures it out on her own. I hope to stand as a pillar of rational thinking, questioning, and logic to her as she grows up. I don’t want her to be another sheep.
No, I never fake, I would not even be able to, never had any serious bible lessons (luckily).
But as I live in Holland, and around 60% do not believe in a church anymore, I do not have to.
And look at our crime figures (drugs, killings, etc) they are much lower than in many so called religious countries. If you are free and happy you do not need drugs to feel free or happy.
Most believers can not wrap their brains around the fact that there are many people who don’t believe. I will not humor them and pretend that I do believe. I just simply will not respond to any comment that has to do with faith. Sometimes silence speaks volumes.
I work in an extremely conservative environment. Not to mention I am black and come from your typical holly rolling black family. Unfortunately I feel that I can not come straight out and say how I truly feel.
I have not been challenged on my silence, yet. However, I have a response ready for a believer that may question my lack of response…”religion is a topic I prefer not to discuss”.
There really ought to be “A Church of Atheism” you could go to, so at least on once in a while you could be yourself.
I don’t calling it a Church is inappropriate. If the goal is to replace the religion of the (pardon me) 2000 year old Jewish Zombie with something that _also_ supports morality, community and ethics, “A Church” seems appropriate, and “The Church” entirely inappropriate.
FYI, if cleanliness is next to godliness, and there is no god, then cleanliness moves to the top spot! That’s a joke, of course, since morality, ethics, what have you, are far more important than body odor or dust on your lintels.
It really has to depend on the situation. In work settings I just avoid the topic unless directly confronted. I had a client, a good client mind you, directly ask me my beliefs. I gave the “not religious” answer but when pushed stated my non-belief. This kicked off a 30 minute discussion about faith and belief which was pretty interesting. I think they hadnt ever known someone they knew was an atheist, and we had a good relationship before so they didnt assume that I was a bad person at the outset of the conversation. I kept the discussion respectful of them but not their beliefs. You dont have to insult the person to say that the beliefs are silly and to point out the logical fallacies in the bible. When I started quoting scripture I think it took them back a step since I probably knew more of the bible than they did and it took the wind out of the argument that I just “didnt know” enough about the bible. They left it saying that they would pray for me which my response was “I appreciate that since I understand you have my best interest at heart but I dont think its really going to help :) ”
But if its not a work situation or you are especially crazy, the gloves are off and lets rumble :) I dont feel like you can insult my beliefs so I assume I cant insult yours and its all fair game.
Lately if I’m asked if I believe in god I just say “Yes, his name is Allah and Mohammad is his prophet.” That always gets a good reaction out of people.
The irony is that if the hard core Christians find an atheist they try to convert him, but if they find a Muslim they just walk away. Yet from my understanding neither an atheist nor a Muslim are ‘saved’ so why don’t these little missionaries pursue both as legitimate game? I always thought it was because they think atheists are a void that needs to be filled with religion, while Muslims already have something occupying their god-shaped hole. Do they think they are going for an easier target, or do they just not want to duel philosophies with another theist?
I think its a mistaken tactic really, after all they only think atheists believe in nothing. But in my experience most atheists have far stronger beliefs than most theists because an atheist has to consciously pursue their reasons for believing. Most theist inherit their religion and never really examine it, so outside of their rehearsed conversion tracts they can’t really go toe to toe with someone who holds strong well thought out beliefs.
I’ve found it much easier to tell them I’m a Googlist.
they don’t know what it is but assume its religous.
if pushed I’m an agnostic, unless you can logically
& factually state your position and provide proof,
i don’t want to hear it, The Bible, Qu’ran, Book of Mormon
& Wikipedia do not constitute proof.
tag
http://churchofgoogle.org
What a beautiful and amazing conversation.
I am in a situation where I am 39 yrs old and come from a VERY devout Christian family. My mother is the 7th child of a Nazarene pastor, and all her brothers and sisters have either grown up to BE ministers/pastors/missionaries OR have married one. That being said, my father is ALSO an Atheist, but it is a secret from the rest of the family (including my mother). We have made a pact to support each other in this regard.
As my wife says, I “Turn On” the Christianity when in presence of family. My family IS ABSOLUTELY the type of family that completely ostracizes all dissonance. My parents are aging (77/72) and frankly, it is just easier for me to recognize the false application of my mother’s belief (not very Christlike to disown those who don’t agree, among other interesting interpretations).
Why don’t I attend Church? I’ve given them an Agnostic explanation instead of Atheist: “GOD” is perfect, infallible, and omnipotent. Man, by our very nature is flawed, and therefore not a worthy interpretative vessel for the will of god, nor the message. So anyone or any church with an Ecclesiastical leader cannot be true. Over time they have come to accept it, and have stopped asking me to go to church. My father simply uses his age as the excuse (it used to be he would “work” on Sunday mornings, much to my mother’s chagrin.
In my household, my wife, daughter and I are strictly Atheist. However, we do not object if our daughter (12) wants to attend church with a friend for some event. At work, I refuse to discuss it because I’ve learned – it’s *REALLY* hard to argue with illogical faith, and people who utilize faith arguments generally can’t defend themselves any other way. Although, I DO love when they ask me about my framed FSM pick hanging on my wall that says “WWFSMD?”. Also have one on the back of my truck.
Great thread, all. I have really enjoyed reading through it. Nice to know others consider this issue, and I especially appreciate those who have arrived at a different conclusion than I.
-Arthur
Maybe I’m just a jerk (and that would explain why I get called that so often), but I relentless antagonize anyone that openly talks about their religion. I mean, friends/co-workers/family, of course. I don’t care enough about strangers to try and draw them into a long debate (typically), but anyone else is fair game.
I do the same for anything like that, though. If I heard them talk about alternative medicine, attack the LHC, talk about faith in unicorns, whatever. I’m not particular to Christianity. A stupid idea’s a stupid idea, and I’ll make fun of it regardless… because I’m a jerk.
My father died back in January, and unfortunately I’ve had to “fake it” around pretty much all of my family. The last thing I want to do is upset anyone (especially myself) any more by being upfront about my atheism, so I usually take the “quiet nod” approach to the constant remarks about my dad being in heaven watching me, offers of “you’re in our prayers,” etc. I’ve yet to lay it out there to anyone, and it bothers me for a couple reasons:
First is because my mother (28 years married to my dad) is turning back to the church to deal with her grief. I was raised Catholic, like her family, but over the past decade or so I’ve seen her drifting further and further from the church. It used to be that she never went to mass, save for when she was visiting with her sisters. She agreed with my secular politics, stem-cell research, pro-choice, etc. I was proud of her. But now she’s thrown herself back into Catholicism full-bore. Masses, support groups, retreats, bible studies… whatever. I understand that there’s a social aspect to it as well, and as a recent widow there’s some definite value in it, but the speed and vigor with which she immersed herself back in the church after being out of it for so long really bothers me, and I want to say something, but can’t.
Second is the fact my dad was not religious in the least. He was a self-described agnostic, never practiced anything as an adult, and most certainly didn’t believe in the divinity of Jesus. And they were all aware of that. I don’t understand how all these well-meaning family members can talk about my dad as if he were “in heaven watching over me” as they do, when such an concept runs afoul of their strictest of tenets — that a belief in Jesus as lord and savior is absolutely required for admittance into heaven after you die. If their beliefs were true to the letter, he’d be in hell, and they know it. But because its a comforting, happy thought, they’ve loosened their rules as they pertain to someone we loved. Don’t get me wrong — the only thing I could hope for more than for my dad to bask in eternal happiness would be to have him back with me today — I just can’t force myself to believe in it because its what I want.
i’m catholic.
in a converse situation, most everyone i knew around work and home like bosses, co-workers, friends, etc was atheist; i used to live in downtown seattle prior to moving here to socal.
i often ran into situations exactly the opposite of those you mentioned; not once did i fake it and pretend to be something i’m not.
in some situations, it might seem that faking it is the right thing to do (like with bosses, etc.) but i think it’s your approach that’s most important. you mention avoiding conflict; don’t look at professing your atheism as being confrontational or whatever, it doesn’t have to be. maybe then, you can be yourself without worrying about others.
I’ve definitely faked it before. One time I was doing volunteer work when a fellow volunteer asked me if I had found Jesus. Both she and I were doing good work, if for slightly different reasons. I wasn’t going to change her views, especially if they contributed to her getting out and helping people. I said yes, mentioned something about liking the parts of the bible were Jesus says to help our fellow man, and got on with my work.
I have trouble faking it when they are not doing anyone else good, and especially if they say anything about restricting my reproductive rights. It’s fine if they want to think birth control and/or abortion is wrong, but not if they want to restrict other’s access to it.
It is the people who “fake it” who give the religious people cover for believing in utter bullshit.
Faking it, although easier in many social contexts, does great harm.
You are enabling religious fundamentalists by giving cover to their beliefs.
STOP IT. YOU ARE HURTING SOCIETY.
Faking it is an act of cowardice. If everyone who fakes it said “No More”, and stopped, all the people left believing in God might find themselves in the minority.
Most people, Christian or otherwise, are able to hold a reasonable conversation about things other that religeon. They say they believe I say I don’t and we leave it at that and move on to talk about more interesting things.
In other words I don’t think it’s ever really neccessary to fake it.
That was a good read!
I sympathize with your decision to “fake it” but I think you do us all a disservice by pretending. More than us you do yourself a disservice. Do you not deserve the right to your opinion without having to hide in fear?
When your coworker brought up his faith what you had but don’t seem to realize was a great opportunity. You know that many religous people have a wildly innacurate understanding of what atheists are like. You know how these inaccurate views can lead to harrasment, intimidation, and worse. You had an opportunity to change someones mind and not by trying to push your non beleifs upon them but simply by not hiding. You say this coworker was a good guy. If he was so good I question why you were afraid? A good guy would respect your right to believe or not believe what you want. A good guy would respect your request if you told him you weren’t interested in religion. A good guy would have been open minded enough to get to know you as a person and learned what an atheist is really like. When we pretend to go along with their views we reinforce them.
In a way atheism is like homosexuality. Both are minorities that are demonized through dalar information. Both can hide their minority status easily. And both suffer greatly by hiding. The more we are open about who we are (without being angry jerks about it) the more acceptance we get and progress we make towards equality. Its time for atheists to come out of the closet. I promise you its better this way.
You deserve to be who you are without hiding or apologizing for it. Come out my friend! Come out!
So Daniel. You basically just admitted you are a fibber in your article and are very capable of lying. At least you are honest though, kudos there.
I don’t agree with what you did and I am a non-religious person.
Well, I’ve never been stuck in a room alone with someone like that for hours/days on end. That would be very hard.
Everyone in my family is Christian; many are down right fundie, some slightly more liberal. I just recently told my parents about my atheism (luckily my parents are some of the slightly more liberal ones, so I wasn’t disowned or anything). Outside of them I would never tell anyone else in my family. The amount of stress and drama it would cause the entire family is just not worth it. It sucks that that’s the way it is. But I don’t see them often enough for it to be a big deal. I can fake it for a few hours 3 or 4 times a year… bow my head before the family meal, listen to my grandfather read Luke 2 at Christmas, etc.
Most of my close friends share my views, or at least are open to other’s beliefs. Anytime the topic of god is brought up in groups of acquaintances (and it is frequently here in the Bible Belt) I just keep my mouth shut. I’ve never been asked point blank (since I think most people around here assume everyone is a Christian – and for the most part they’re right!) but I think I would have less problem telling them than my family.
I think my mother-in-law is the only big obstacle. My husband doesn’t want to talk to her about it, but its extremely difficult when she attributes things going well for my family, despite some adversity, to god because she prayed about it. Um, how about because we work really hard. WE decided to go the self-employment route, WE are responsible with our money, and WE are making ends meet. It was also really hard not to lose it when she started telling my 2 year old daughter about Jesus this past Christmas. Husband told her to cut it out, but I think that until/unless she knows WHY she’s just going to keep doing it. Honestly she’d probably keep doing it anyway though. *sigh*
Can’t, won’t
If they won’t drop it after “This is a topic I don’t want to talk about” or “You believe, I don’t, let’s drop it because neither will change the other’s mind”, it’s called “hostile work environment” – a big no-no in the US.
You *do* have to explicitly communicate that. It’s like sexual harassment: you can’t know if you crossed a line with gray areas without being explicitly told so for that circumstance and person so the courts generally require the complainant to have explicitly told the defendant the line has been crossed.
Keep it calm but politely but firmly tell them to stop. I’d give them enough rope hang themselves by tape recording or webcaming from your office PC (there’s no privacy assured in a work environment), then go above the fundie to management and personnel and file a complaint (and if you suspect they are more of the same, start filling out the EEOC complaint forms). Hold back on showing the audio-video until after the fundie lies about the conversation – being a Fundie Christian seems to promote lying because the “truth” of the bible supersedes the truth of temporal reality for these people.
Get the Fundie fired if they refuse to tone it down – they can have their own opinions but like a fist and your face, even the swing is criminal assault legally. Oh, and if you get fired for complaining, that’s a major EEOC violation that cost the company mucho dinero.
Be aware though, unless management themselves are exactly the same kind of fundie pricks, *they probably will already hate* the fundie prick as much or more that you do because this isn’t likely the first time the prick disrupted the real point of the business: the smooth operations and making money – management is probably just looking for a legal excuse to sh*tcan them already.
Few companies can or will tolerate that kind Federal (or sometimes State) problem. Just make sure you aren’t collateral damage in the cross-fire by *not being part of the problem* as management sees the situation. This is why documentation, rationality and process are critical. Trying to be “even-handed” is more about avoiding legal problems than an endorsement of even one iota of Fundie crap.
Nope, can’t and won’t in fact.
My family had a bit of a problem with my atheism, on the start. But when they didn’t see my picture on the front page of news paper for some horrible crime, didn’t see me at gay pride parades, didn’t have to worry about leaving their kids with me, they figured it out. I’m just like them, I simply don’t practice theism.
Same with work. I’m not involved in some plot to over throw the government, so apparently I’m a regular guy.
I neither hide nor advertise my atheism. But when the topic comes up, I don’t shy away from it either. Never have, probably never will.
I don’t fake it but I do ignore it. If pressed I will say, “I’m not religious” and leave it at that. If pressed further (harassed, at times) I say, “I really hate arguing about or even discussing religion. Can you please drop it?” or something to that effect. That usually works.
If it doesn’t then it’s their fault if I let loose and tell them how illogical and dangerous their beliefs are.
Reading the comments, I’m having hard times rationalizing that for some people in a free western country this could be an actual problem… It’s scary.
I never have faked it really. I never found the need to. I’m a very open atheist almost to a fault. It lost me several beautiful women. I can fake it if I wish though. I find it refreshing and cathartic to turn off my brain and bullshit for awhile. Having read the bible and watched alot of extreme Christianity I can play a very convincing evangelical. I’m not wealthy or clean looking enough for the detail hungry viewer though.
I come at this from a faith perspective. In fact, you might class me as a “fundy type” (not sure – depends what you class as fundy)… but…
I don’t think you should fake it. Why would ya? Unless you end up getting harangued by folk because you believe something different to them. That would be a pity.
For me, I don’t see why it’s gotta be a big deal. Why can’t we just respect one another’s beliefs?We might even – shock horor – have things to learn about one another. And yes, *even* an evengelical christian has things to learn! :-D
In fact, I blogged about this this week: http://bit.ly/tRRy
Life’s a journey. People’s differences should be a source of conversation if they want to, and those on both sides should be able to respect and leave others alone if they don’t want to get into it.
Interesting.
Reading some of the comments make a few sound equally if not MORE self-righteous than the fundies. To dictate to someone (for example, the STOP IT comments) when it is or is not appropriate for them to acknowledge their atheism, “fake-it” or just plain lie feels entirely inappropriate to me.
In my experience, and I have a very successful business development career in technology spanning about 18 years, once you lay your cards on the table people build that into their perception of you.
For example, having that conversation with a co-worker can simply create unnecessary tension and reduce productivity. Maybe word gets back to management and they have a silent but spiritual issue with that. The idealistic post outlining a strategy for an ultimate EEOC complaint demonstrates the lack of experience of the poster. These issues can be far different than some fundie trying to convert you, and lawsuits, EEOC complaints etc. can have a very negative impact on your career. Not to mention, how far are you going to go in life with a big chip on your shoulder waiting for every opportunity to argue or escalate?
Employers don’t need a reason not to promote you, give you less than a full raise, or pass over you for prime assignments – many sharp ones will silently practice their discrimination, and you will have no recourse whatsoever, because when it comes down to it they have given you nothing you can specifically point to. I have seen this happen multiple times. In fact, about 10 years ago I worked for a company where all the upper management was LDS. Obviously I wasn’t, so I wasn’t 100% on the inside – but by feigning xtianity, I was able to maintain a good 85% insider status. Better than some who were more talented than I, yet were openly vocal about their non-spirituality and failed to ascend. I ascended into positions of greater responsibility and reward, while the others stagnated.
I have also had an experience where I flew to Santa Clara to finalize a deal with a Fortune 100 software company – a deal that represented about $90M in gross revenue for my company. I flew in to take my client to golf on Saturday prior to a Monday presentation, and before leaving the client asked if I had plans the next day. Being in from out of town, of course I didn’t. So I ended up accepting an invitation to church and brunch the next day. If I had said; “Gee – I’ll go to brunch but I’m an atheist so I don’t go to church.” I have no way of knowing if I would have landed the deal, but judgments are made in subtle ways.
I know when I have an open position and two equally qualified candidates, I choose the one whose resume does not have “missionary”, “D.D. Degree” or “Organized a ministry focusing on….”
Concerning family, it should be up to the individual to weigh if the sacrifice is worth maintaining family harmony. We owe nothing to the “atheist movement”. We’re not making it more difficult for other atheists, and the argument that we are has about as much “fact” behind it as xtianity.
Atheism is rarely an emotional decision – it tends to be made using innate intelligence coupled with logic and reasoning skills. However, I find this new and emerging breed of atheist, ones who attach themselves to atheism in an emotional manner as a substitute for religion, to be incredibly distasteful. Maybe a good thread would be “is there room for Dogma in Atheism?”.
I observe no blanket answers. Thinking one solution automatically works in all situations looks very xtian to me.
The term “gross violation of human rights” comes to mind. Just because they’re misguided, or in some cases fucking stupid, doesn’t mean they don’t deserve the same rights we do.
My Son and I are the only non-believers in the family and no else knows.
Last Thanksgiving my son was asked to give the the prayer. He launched into a rather long sermon on thankfulness and family togetherness. At the end everyone said amen and we had our meal.
Me I could barely keep from laughing. During that whole long prayer he never mentioned God or Jesus and no one noticed.
This is probably not a popular outspoken opinion, although it’s definitely practiced by a lot of hypocrites:
Lying isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It’s dangerous, because, as Mark Twain put it: “It’s easier to tell the truth” – but ultimately, I define my moral worldview around what actually happens to people and not whether or not they were privy to the truth. I’m not saying that lying should be par for the course, but sometimes, it’s better to harmlessly fake it instead of giving everyone around you a pain in the ass.
I study at a conservative Jewish college in Israel, and am a full-fledged atheist. I wouldn’t dare mentioning my complete atheism, but since secular Jews are almost indistinguishable from atheists, no one finds it odd that I don’t lockstep according to the Torah.
I, too, have some situations where I feel faking it is far better than stirring up emotions or shocking people. I will likely have to fake it at my family reunion as well. I prefer to just leave things unsaid and keep them guessing rather than having to actually lie.
If you’re an atheist, just say so. I’ve only been attacked by atheists for being a theist. I mean, here’s the most perfect example: How many blogs on WordPress.com are atheist blogs dedicated towards bashing religion? I would almost say most of them, and there are very few which actually produce any kind of worthwhile discussion. Now how many blogs on WordPress.com are theist blogs dedicated towards bashing atheism? Still haven’t seen one.
That is funny. I graduated from the pcc high-school pca. They are about as fundamentalist as they get. I remember I whole lecture in my theology class about Hell being literal fire. The teacher said that it has been shown that the hottest type of fire possible is actually black, and that is the type of fire that his all loving God would torture you forever with in hell. Very crazy people there to say the least. As ingersoll said “God so loved the world, that he decided to damn the majority of it forever.”
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Oh! I thought relegious people were made by god only so atheist like us would make fun of them. The joke begins at words Virgin Mary.
I neither hide nor advertise my atheism. But when the topic comes up, I don’t shy away from it either.
This pretty much sums up my position with my atheism.
My boyfriend was previously a Jehovah’s Witness and is currently unaligned to any particular church (I think he is doubting his faith, but that is a topic for another discussion). As I am currently reading the bible we often have discussions on religious matters and my scrutiny of his beliefs is not an issue, neither is my lack of beliefs.
I only remember twice faking anything:
1) at my friends mother’s funeral. They were all mega religious and the father did the eulogy. I bowed my head in fake prayer at this event, out of respect.
2) the second time was when my brother’s wife had a stillborn baby. At the hospital they had an army chaplain and he did a little ceremony in the room. For these prays I also put my head down.
However, it is really very emotionally hard for me to do that – it makes me want to scream. It feels so disingenuous to myself and everyone around me.
This is what I imagine it would feel like for a Muslim to join in on Christian prayer and visa versa, so I don’t see why people think its any different for an atheist to do something so against their beliefs.
VorJack
I can’t fake it, but I should.
I need to take a leaf out of your book and develop some diplomacy. I lack that as part of my character trait.
I’ve done the born again, preaching on the street, ex-bible college, read the new testament in Greek and now don’t believe in any religion that feels the need to be adherents of a book.
In bible college we were taught to love the sinner and not the sin. In the same way we need to love and admire the person and their conviction but we don’t have to become partakers of their faith.
Is it pragmatism or are you socially adept?
Its interesting to see how many atheists are slowly coming out of the closet :( … But is it still not an excellent idea to reveal it in social gatherings etc? Why is it so controversial that someone believes the universe might be random?
Also, I was born into a completely different faith, and i too have faked it and hated having to fake it.
I am completely with you on the faking it. You’re not going to change anybody’s mind and by disagreeing you’ll just subject yourself to more mind-numbing propaganda, etc. Smile, nod and move on. It’s a complete waste of time to try to reason with a fundamentalist.
Yes fake
mahantesh
Generally, I am pretty out there about my atheism. Most people who know me in any sort of meaningful way know I am an atheist. Many people who know me in a passing way know I am an atheist.
Still, there are situations where I will avoid the topic of beleif/non-belief. Mostly in a professional setting. Usually this involves changing the topic. I have not and will not represent myself as a believer though.
I have one exception, and it relates to my grandmother. I know that finding out I’m an atheist would hurt her so deeply, and cause her to lose so much sleep over my afterlife destination, that I can’t justify letting her know the truth. I fake it with her.
I guess when it comes to God, people are so stubborn with their beliefs, it rarely helps to bring up an argument on the topic. I usually go along, never really volunteer to many views or opinions myself, but stick to agreeing to what the other guy is saying, but, of course, hiding the fact that I’m faking it…
These are personal beliefs, and everyone has a right to express them. I guess we also have the right to curb our own rights at times, when we feel that exercising the same would lead to undesired, unnecessary conflict.
VorJack,
My suggestion is to NEVER lie. Doing so puts undue stress on you every time you speak with whoever you lied to.
This goes for everything in life.
You can mislead through implied meaning, (always saying something that is true), or mislead through body language, or stay silent when you think to tell someone an outright lie.
If you’re really nervous about an xtian, when they spout their nonsense, say something vague like, “there are things that cannot (currently) be explained (but have nothing to do with your god)”, “I’ve thought that at one time or another (i just don’t think that now)”, “they (xtians, not the atheists they’re talking s*#t about) are so ignorant”
After a while, coming up with true statements that can mislead them becomes a game. The best part being that even if they find out through some kind of slip, you can happily say that you never lied, not once. Every statement had a different subject than the one they seemed to think it was meant for.
If they were misled, it was their own fault. While you purposely did not tell them the whole truthful sentence, they accepted what was said at face value, just like they do with their preacher every Sunday.
This article speaks directly to me, man, and my feet fit perfectly in your shoes.
Unfortunately, atheists are minority (I try not to use atheism because it itself sounds too “religious”). At least in the west, christian faith dominates the landscape. People are judged by what faith they proclaim and how they manifest it.
Most people that choose not to be fervent christians, rather describe themselves as “spiritual”: believing in some god but “not in churches”, which helps them gain some acceptance in society. Saying you are not of any denomination, but instead an atheist equates you to someone with the morals of a rapist.
I have also chosen to navigate this by “faking it” as you adequately put it. (I must confess I actually clicked on the title link in the wordpress home page thinking it had more to do with orgasmic mimicry than anything about faith… but it’s a great site and heartfelt post). I usually avoid any “discussion” on the topic, listening to other’s pro-faith banter and maybe smiling back to them to acknowledge the message and allow them to feel comfortable around me.
I was once having lunch with some coworkers and they started talking about their faith and the different ways they profess it. Some regularly going to church several times a week. Others saying they’ll only go on sundays, but regularly pray and read the bible on other days. Others citing some bible text which apparently implies it’s not really necessary to go to church at all – simply meeting anywhere to praise god’s name will do. The discussion got a bit worked up- nothing big, just them trying to prove who’s “righter” than the other. I was simply a spectator to all this.
Then they turned to me, and asked about my faith a bit directly. Time sort of stopped there for a bit. I had to choose: try to fake-it there and make it more difficult later on to seriously state my true belief? or spill out the truth once and for all and accept the consecuence.
I chose the latter. Everyone just stopped talking. Out of all the different and conflicting opinions being strongly outspoken there, my determined but calm voiced “I’m an atheist” seemed to smack everyone in the face.
It was a meeting breaker. Some people quietly abandoned the area. Others responded with the standard “what?” “really?” “atheist?”. Some where a bit outspoken, like a fine young lady who I must modestly admit seems to have a strong crush on me (at least until then): “I can’t believe what you’re saying” and “you have really disappointed me”.
This same lady, later on IM’d me repeating the above phrases, and adding “I can’t believe that you, being such a nice hearted, calm and loving person…” (I’m telling you- she’s gotta be into me)”… are also an atheist”. She has proposed to change my mind by the end of the year. Good luck with that.
The thing is, now most of everyone around me at that moment (and whomever they might have shared the story with) will have a totally different perception of myself. Not only of my faith, but as me as a person. Am I trust worthy? Should they even like me? What does my success in the company say about atheists? They are very keen on handling that subject. If I fail – of course! I had it coming to me. No one neglects god’s words and gets away with that. I should have turned to him before it was too late. If I thrive – then I am either a confused christian that will soon enough find my ways, or I am a time bomb waiting to happen, then cue the failing option.
I am currently director of sales in a tech company. Would I even have been given this job if my faithless views were known beforehand?
Whenever someone says that they believe all truth comes from the Bible, I simply respond with, “Where are all the Unicorns?”
Obviously, if you believe the Bible, you are obligated to believe in Unicorns? Right? (This is only a small sample of “Unicorny” verses found in the Bible.)
If I felt like the situation could support a hefty moral debate as to the existance of god I would fight my own corner, preaching from my evolution and natural history text books.
However there is one situation that send me into a trembling heap of jelly that wants nothing more than to agree with whatever anyone sas with the hopes that they will go away soon. This situation? When the Jehova’s Witnesses come a-knockin’. They know I have been to university studying animal behaviour and so they preach about how god gave man dominion over all the animals on earth and how they are put on this planet to serve us. How mosquitos in Africa spread malaria becuase human beings are an evil species unless we repent on a regular basis etc…etc.
Every time they come around I listen carfully, nod in the right places, make happy or supprised or sad noises untill they leave.
One day I will have the guts to tell them that i’m a darwinist and be done with it.
I think if people just kept their religious beliefs to themselves instead of throwing it in everyones faces then maybe people could get along better. I love how there’s supposed to be a separation of church and state yet it never is separated. Don’t fake what you believe, but don’t expect everyone else to believe what you do. If you believe in God, then thats what you believe. If you don’t, then that works for you also.
Your going to believe whatever you want. So stop trying to get others to believe what you believe.
My (church elder) father borrowed Sam Harris “The End of Faith” from me. We agree to disagree. This probably only works because English christians are so wet.
Forgive me for eavesdropping on your conversation. I am a Bible-believing Christian, but not one who would ostracize or otherwise mistreat a fellow human being who happens not to believe in God. If I was that coworker in the small, windowless room, I’m sure I would eventually try to discern my friend’s religious beliefs. Upon discovering that he was an atheist, I would probably ask him about his background and maybe relate mine, all the while listening for an indication of whether or not he was open to a spiritual discussion. Maybe I’d just come right out and ask him. But if he wasn’t, I know very well that it would not only be pointless but counterproductive to insist on drawing him into one against his will. My attitude towards him would continue to be one of consideration and respect.
I do feel, as a follower of Jesus, a certain compulsion to witness to those I come in contact with. And the reason . . . please hear it . . . is because I know God desires all people to be saved. And because I believe that those who reject Christ will not be. But Jesus never harassed people if they rejected him and neither should we.
Unfortunately, many professing Christians don’t really understand what it means to follow Christ and end up doing more harm than good with their often ill-informed zeal. And they read the Bible with an eye to finding fuel for their self-righteousness instead of learning the heart of God. And they don’t take the time to discover why it is in fact a very reasonable faith, so that they stumble when challenged and give meaningless, pat answers to serious questions.
I implore the reader to please not lump all of us together, and I will promise not to do the same with you. Let me assure you that you can safely “come out” with a good many of us. But understand that if we care about you at all, we’re likely to tell you about God’s love for you and his provision for eternal life with him through Jesus, his Son.
You said that only the conversation with this other person kept the both of you sane. And then you opt to fake a belief system? Is that sane?
I think you should have stated your own belief in a matter-of-fact manner. If you treated him with respect he probably would have treated you with respect. Then you could have had some very interesting conversations.
So agree with you!!!
ViktoryiaN
Your atheism is curious. Why would a man who professed a faith in Christianity not believe in God? I can see why you may not beleive in Jesus, but I can’t believe you think there is not God. Have you ever wondered where or how the universe began? What existed before that? There absolutely has to be a power greater than we can imagine that has existed, exists, and will continue to exist for eternity. There is no other plausible explanation for it.
So why don’t you kill yourself right now and meet him?
Not knowing the exact origins of the universe doesn’t make me conjure up imaginations of supernatural, jealous gods that watch and punish. Doesn’t make me think I have to go to a place of worship once a week, or donate to a global superpower of homosexual pedophiles. (And this is coming from someone, ME, who went through 12 years of catholic schooling; 2 years AP bio, 2 years AP chem, AP trig/pre-calc, and… religion, which insulted my intelligence.
Why do you assume that some being intentionally *created* the universe? There’s absolutely no scientific background to that, you sound like a caveman. “Oh i can’t explain it THEREFORE some self-sentient being must have done it because he made us!”
Yeah, if that were the case then he also made e. coli and cancer and countless other diseases that cause people years of pain and suffering, etc etc etc.
Religion spread very much like a plague around the planet because the evangelicals scared people into listening to them by putting the ‘fear of god’ into them. Then they started wars against anyone who believed differently than they did.
Religion is a plague.
Watch Bill Maher’s “Religulous.” The catholic church rampaged around the known continents offering conversion or death, and they stole their practices and customs along the way. 3000 years before jebus walked the earth, there was an Egyptian god who curiously also had risen from the dead after 3 days of being martyred and also had 12 followers.
Why celebrate Christmas by decorating an evergreen tree and giving people presents? I guarantee you there wasn’t an evergreen tree within 5000 miles of the middle east. The reason catholics do that is because the roman catholic church *stole* the winter solstice festival practice from the pagans who lived before them and had no fear of supernatural deities because they hadn’t been scarred by religion yet. It’s the winter solstice you’re celebrating; the end of days getting darker and colder with less light and the start of days getting lighter and warmer with more light.
Look up ‘yule’ at dictionary.com: ”
O.E. geol, geola “Christmas Day, Christmastide,” from O.N. jol (pl.), a heathen feast, later taken over by Christianity, of unknown origin.”
Unknown origin because people were performing these celebrations since before they started keeping records. It was a holiday celebrating the coming new year; they decorated evergreen trees because those were the only trees that weren’t barren that time of year.
But you’ll refuse to listen because you too have been brainwashed by parents, who were brainwashed by parents, etc etc for centuries to refuse to listen to reason and force yourself to blindly follow their rules without question.
Me? I think for myself.
“There absolutely has to be a power greater than we can imagine that has existed, exists, and will continue to exist for eternity.”
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING plausible about your above-quoted statement, unless you’re talking about the *2nd* definition which includes the word ‘deceptively,’:
1.having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable: a plausible excuse; a plausible plot.
2.well-spoken and apparently, but often deceptively, worthy of confidence or trust: a plausible commentator.
ohh, you convinced me! I never thought of that!! Praise Jesus!
…. no one here will claim to know why the universe is here or how it all began. Atheists are at least honest in answering that question with an “I don’t know.” Christians and other religious people are the arrogant ones in professing to know answers to these questions because of some ancient, mostly anonymous texts.
Grampajoe and Christian~
Yikes- I would think before posting on a skeptic’s website you would want to read through a bit of what type of atheist tends to comment here…
Most, if not all, are highly aware of the Christian message, have been there/done so themselves, and are not aimless wanderers. Your posts, the two of you, assume that you have some info that we, gasp, have some how missed. Try again and come back after having read the comments of those you’d like to engage a conversation with…
Wow, loved reading all of the comments.
Not saying this is right, but here’s what I do/don’t do:
My family is fairly religious except for my immediate family. Growing up, I attended church sporadically, first within the “family faith” of Christian Science, then at a Unitarian Universalist weekly-non-denominational-all-accepting-get-together. After that, I have not attended church.
My extended family is well aware of my religious situation and occasionally push me to attend Church (fairly recently: “It’s one of the last chances to attend Sunday School before you turn 20!”) I politely decline these requests, and quickly plan something for Sunday. Most often when religion is brought up, I nod politely, say “mhm” every now and then, and allow them to realize that the conversation will die the moment they stop talking about Jesus, and will probably switch to a completely unrelated topic. During grace, I will hold hands/pinkies, but my head stays up and eyes stay open.
I wish I didn’t even tolerate it, and either simply excuse myself, or bring up my own beliefs, but with family feel it is simpler to not create a “situation.”
With friends, it’s an entirely different story. If you don’t already know I’m an atheist, bringing up your religious beliefs is a good way to figure out very quickly. This has caused both several ex-friends as well as several ex-religious friends.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and other door-to-door proselytizers get the biggest lie of all: I attempt to convert them to LaVey Satanism. I’ve even written up pamphlets that I insist they take in exchange. I dominate the conversation, tell them everything I can about the wonders of Satan and do my best to make sure they leave with a pamphlet. So far this has not put me on any “convert urgently – in dire need of saving” lists, and appears to instead have put me on the “batshit insane – do not attempt to convert” lists, especially since I make sure to point out #1, 3, and 4 of the Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth.
In closing, I would like to apologize to all actual satanists for giving you an even worse rap in the eyes of fundies. Your religion happens to have very negative connotations that it does not necessarily deserve and I have only made that worse.
telepromter i did a google search and from what i can see those unicorn verses are in the king james version of the bible. which is the bible i used when i was a christians.
as far as using the unicorn quotes goes christians are the ones who translated the bible. christians are the ones who claim that morality comes from god, they are the ones who claim that the bible is not confusing and that it makes sense.
they should at least have to answer the question of, if their god is so moral then exactly why does he take the time to talk about unicorns and not explicitly state that slavery and selling ones daughter into is immoral.
its not like god intervenes or speaks up quite often in human affairs after all.
also you are probably correct about their being even more incoherent verses in the bible than the unicorn quotations.
“Forgive me for eavesdropping on your conversation. I am a Bible-Thumping Christian…”
TL DR
I appreciate tempered honesty.
Now, I’m coming from a different perspective than the blogger, but I’ll take my best stab anyway.
I don’t volunteer information about my beliefs, and I don’t make attempts to evangelize. I don’t talk about God, the bible, my faith, or anything else at work — unless I’m asked directly, or unless something I’m asked to do for work conflicts with important religious dates or occasions (e.g., took Good Friday off to participate in worship, but as a personal day).
But when I’m asked my opinion about X, Y, or Z, I give an honest answer, and I try to be as sensitive about that honesty as I can be.
To be honest, If you were my co-worker, and I asked something of you (which I probably wouldn’t, but let’s just say I did), I would appreciate that same kind of honesty.
Now, if you feel like people will look down at you somehow because of your atheism, I suppose that’s a different story — but still, I value honesty. And, I value it when people respond honestly and intelligently when asked about things like this.
Joe L.
The fact that you cannot answer what caused it to begin should make you want to know. Eternity is a mysterious concept. Even an atheist should wonder what, who is behind it. Science can’t answer, nor can you, why can’t the mystery be GOD.
Because I’m not stupid enough to say “well i cant explain it, THEREFORE it MUST have been created by some superpowered supernatural diety” and wash my hands of it.
The basis of science is to ask why, and then search for answers.
Einstein was an atheist. Possibly the smartest man to ever walk the planet didn’t believe in god. Isn’t that enough reason for you?
i’m halfway through this thread, and cannot overlook the similarities in responses from people here to what African Americans said about “passing” in the past. From the time of lincoln until the present many people of color have pushed aside family and friends in order to pass as white, because they were of a slightly mixed descent but had the “good hair” and fair skin. This of course eliminated the fear of lynching, ended wage discrimination, opened the doors of universities ect.
I myself am a proud agnostic since I can niether prove or disprove God. I am at the same time I am vehemently anti-religious, and I do not hide that, nor have I for 20+years. I found out in a sociology class many years ago that the vast majority of humanity succumbs to peer pressure very quickly. They do not trust thier own reason and follow the herd.
The professor had drawn two lines on the board, A and B. A was obviously longer than B. He then asked the class to go right to left, row by row and say which line was longer. The first 5 students were in on the test and all said B was longer, and one by one people followed suit and said B was longer. When it got to me I nearly burst, I jumped up, ran to the board shouting “what the fuck is wrong with you all?! LOOK! and held up my arm to show them that A was obviously longer.
The professor laughed and explained it was always that way. He said that often entire days went by without one person rebeling, once he even went a whole week of classes without one person speaking up. He said his personal average was about 1 in 350, but had seen it as high as 1 in 1000. The people he said are convinced that there is some trick or that they are missing something, and do not want to be singled out and ostracised for thinking differently. He also said it is the mark of a leader to not follow.
We here are all in that boat to some degree. We have discarded the view of the majority in favor of our own reason. As such we are the leaders in thought. If we really want change I think we all need to learn methods of communicating our thoughts without confrontation and in a caring inquisitive mode. I do not think anyone should crush an aged grandmothers notions, just because we think differently.
I have found over time that the easiest way to do this is to ask questions about anothers faith for which they don’t have ready answers. Questions which make believers question. It opens minds, and sometimes all it takes is that for more questions to domino effect and a new understanding to emerge. For those of you who were part of a faith for a long time, you know how frightening that new reality can be, so take care in what you ask them to consider. History is often a good point, as is second genisis or the nephalim. It is easy to do more harm than good and that avails no one.
I can understand the point that you are making. But from my own point of view this is still a very scary thing to come forward and do. I, myself, come from a deeply religious Catholic family who has shown their ability to pressure and make life miserable for family members who don’t share their point of view (my sister was shunned and abused for engaging in a inter-racial relationship). I have no doubt that if I were to “come out” about my atheism to my family it would be a point for contention and extreme stress between us. I love my family but I also acknowledge that they can do things like this to me if they feel strongly about the situation. To complicate matters my husband also comes from a deeply religious family. His mother and step father very much follow the traditional family roles as espoused in the bible. His family was partially torn apart when his father decided to convert from Catholicism to a non-denominational protestant church and be re-baptized. The pressure and hate that came into his life at this choice was one of the motivating factors for the disintegration of their marriage.
So coming out to my family members would could not only mean a strained relationship with my parents and family but actual pressure from my husband’s side for a divorce. I love my husband but he is very non-confrontational. I don’t know if he could stand up against that pressure from his family and keep our marriage together. This is a very serious decision for me. Yes I have the bravery to act out anonymously or within my separate social spheres. But it’s entirely different to make the same jump with those close to me. A lot may be won for the cause but at the cost of personal and emotional agony and loss.
Faking isn’t an either or choice. A lot can be done by people without having to engage with those they are directly involved with in their daily lives. This can help to advance the movement while also helping those in tough situations find another path.
I have had internet/computer/life issues for the last little while and have not been able to comment, But I just wanted to thank you, vorjack, and Daniel, for addressing this topic. It is easy to point out silly things that the Faithful do and say, but of more importance to me are the “what now, then?” questions, like this one.
This post came at a time when I was really struggling with how/whether to tell my Dad, a Methodist Minister, that I am no longer a Methodist. Oh yeah, and also not Christian either. That question is still unresolved, but this article, and its resulting comments, really gave me a lot of food for thought as I chewed over my options.
I’m in the ‘be honest and say who you really are’ camp. I work with some pretty hardcore fundies — one guy in particular sits in the breakroom on his lunches and writes out pages of bible notes, bible verses, mini-prayers to God, etc.
My rule at work is that I don’t bring up religion or politics unless I’m specifically asked. At work I try not to even interject if others are having a religious coversation. If asked, however, I will definitely speak my peace. I am well-armed with counter-arguments to religious thinking and don’t mind using them if I’m brought into a conversation. I would never in a million years pretend to be a Christian to appease a Christian, or to ‘soften’ the situation. If I were in your shoes, I would be polite, but ask probing questions if the guy pushed his fundy’ism on me (which he seems he did, with the “all truth comes from the bible” bit).
On the other hand, not sure I’d want to fuck with an ex-marine :-)
Religitards should be taken out and shot.
I tell people that my testicles were ripped off in a bizarre gardening accident, and that there is a verse in the bible that says “He who hath no stones may not enter the kingdom of heaven.”
Not only does it point out the absurdity of the their religion – it stops any more religious conversations. Works on people at the front door, too.
The best is when you tell them that you really want to believe but their rules prohibit it.
I know for a fact that I was denied a job because of my lack of faith – but it is their loss, not mine.
I don’t even try to fake it anymore, it just ends up coming out in the end anyway. Many of the kids from my school end up going to Pensacola Christian College, it’s not even accredited. I can’t imagine spending four more years past high school in a place like that, they chaperone dates there.
I think the point is that you can stand for your (un)beliefs but without being confrontational.
It is the Gandhi approach: you never attack nor defend and answer politely to all the questions they ask, to the detail they require.
If they get angry, you smile or however keep your cool.
If they don’t ask anymore, you obtained what you wanted.
Thanks for the reminder about Neil Shubin’s Your Inner Fish – ordered it immediately so I didn’t forget again.
I think it is wrong to fake it. Stand up for what you believe in. or be silent. But don’t be someone you are not. That is just wrong.
In that situation I don’t think you need to fake it. You can still say you agree with many of the messages in the bible without saying you believe in God.
Fully 100% agree. Only time I could “possibly” see faking it (or lying) is when a crazy religious person has a gun to your head or to escape a very dangerous situation in which religious fanatics are going to sacrafice you because their imaginary friend is filling their heads with voices of evil.
For all you fakers to lie about your beliefs then that says a lot about who you are. Stop lying!
Lying is evil. Be a good person, don’t lie.
Just for the record, it was a guest post; it wasn’t Daniel.
My apologies. This was intended towards VorJack.
Thanks for pointing that out Stupid Idea.
“I neither hide nor advertise my atheism. But when the topic comes up, I don’t shy away from it either.”
Dr. Karl E. Taylor, I find your synthesis just brilliant.
I am an atheist and I live with a Christian family, work with Christian co-workers and go to school in a Christian community.
I’m going to be completely honest with you about how I deal with this type of thing. I believe some would argue that my technique is dishonest. But I believe it’s a wise and pragmatic approach to this dilemma in a setting such as work that is inappropriate for debate.
In general I try to hold back comments that would otherwise cause people to distrust or dislike me, irregardless of how unjustified they may be in those judgments.
If I am asked point blank “Do you believe in God?” I would say something like “I believe in the possibility that there is a God, but I also maintain that from our perspective it seems very hard to rationalize” which is a safe way (or wussy way, if you prefer) of saying “No”. Let me explain why I do this.
For example, when asked what church I go to by a co-worker, I replied “I used to go to First Baptist”. He picked a safe indirect way to ask about my religion and I considered who he was and how open he might be to debate and decided to dodge the intent of his question diplomatically.
When asked why I no longer attend I said, “Just didn’t feel like the right church for me”. Yes, I could have said “No church is the right church for me” or “I don’t believe in Christian bullshit”. But unless I decide to put aside my work that very moment and commit myself to uprooting his whole church-based 50 years of life which little chance of success, why rock the boat? Here’s why I might:
If I disliked the man or was in a horrible mood, I might just as well say “I’m an atheist”. His view about me would shift, he may see me as proud, arrogant, lost, detached from God, and destined to death unless he or someone else can save me. You might say “Who gives a shit what he thinks?” but ask yourself instead “What do you have to gain from choosing to contrast someone who you already know is irrational?”
In fact, I *don’t* care what he thinks. I’m not sitting down for what I believe in, I’m simply saying “none of your fucking business” in the politest of ways. This doesn’t mean I wouldn’t stand up and stop him if he were doing some crazy shit in the name of his God.
The bottom line is he shouldn’t bring this up, I shouldn’t add fire to it either unless I have good reason to. I should put it out and get back to my work. This is why I do what I do in these situations.
At home, I am honest and my family tried to accept it.
I do what pragmatically makes since. When he’s interviewed in 6 months about my performance, or when my co-worker spreads rumors that I’m dishonest, I don’t want his irrational faith to hurt me. I rather his irrational faith help me.
So before actually trying to engage the readers on this blog in a conversation, you just want to go ahead and make an assumption that there is no “worthwhile discussion”, without actually participating in discussion? Smooth.
By the way, are there any atheist blogs which you think do not “bash” religion? Are there any “I think faith is entirely reasonable but I am an atheist anyway” blogs out there?
I think you have a problem with the message that some people don’t share your beliefs, not that they are being “bash(ed)”.
Wow, way to sneak in a dig at atheist blogs under the guise of participating in a discussion.
VI-Chao, I agree completely. Whenever anyone starts saying, “Well X Group must do/behave/think in such-and-so manner,” then that’s the beginnings of fundamentalism. As others have noted, there are very good and pragmatic reasons for not revealing one’s atheism. If you so choose to reveal your atheism, good for you. If I choose not to, and it’s not hurting you, then there isn’t a problem.
To give them medical treatment goes against their religion in many cases. We’d be doing them (and us) a favor, and being as P.C. as we possibly can be.
thanks for sharing that great objective unicorn truth. i had no idea that the bible mentioned unicorns, you can rest assure that i will use those unicorn qoutes whenever i get a chance.
In all fairness, most translations don’t render that as “unicorns”. I’d think twice before using that quote — I’d check out other translations, too.
I think the Bible is as incoherent, too, but at we least we can provide better examples of it.
Can I just say… Good for you!
You’ve stood up and hopefully started a few people on the way to understanding that Atheism isn’t their enemy. It’s just different from their beliefs. Here’s the key:
“I can’t believe that you, being such a nice hearted, calm and loving person are also an atheist.”
That says it all doesn’t it? By simply being who you are (not a criminal or even an unkind person) you’ve showed this woman that her understanding of what an atheist is don’t mesh with reality. Hopefully over time as she pays more attention to you she’ll continue to face this question and realize that her understanding of atheists is not correct.
I respect your background, but do we *really* have to use the term “Darwinist”? Can we please, *please*, quit using that word? It’s a terrible word choice.
Isn’t that (first) a hopelessly inadequate and outdated explanation of the relevant science and (second) doesn’t it play right into the hands of those who contend that science is just as blindly dogmatic as religion?
Also, another thing which annoys me greatly is when people say that they “believe” in evolution. Hogwash.
It’s impossible to “believe” or “disbelieve” in evolution — it’s only possible to accept it or not accept it.
If you say that it’s a belief, you’re implying that it’s something speculative, something which you have an inkling may be true, but you really can’t know for sure.
Evolution is just as reliable as anything else in science, right? Therefore those who refuse to acknowledge it do not really have a belief (for by lending the term belief, we imply that the opinion is merited if not authoritative), but actually they are merely being either stubborn or loose with the truth or they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Why do that when you can have a drive-by witnessing?
I understand the pragmatic argument, but I disagree. If you take the pragmatic approach, nothing will ever change, athiests and agnostics will always be thought of as vile and evil by the majority. I can recall men in my own lifetime who would not speak out for civil rights for the same reasons, it might cost them respect, or a job, a home ect. Yet in the end, they were considered as much a bigot as the Klan.
you said “Well X Group must do/behave/think in such-and-so manner,” then that’s the beginnings of fundamentalism.” That is not fundamentalism, but religious bigotry. I only favor the pragmatic argument only when it will cause harm to others, children and the elderly come to mind. If standing up for your lack of faith is going to cause your children or grandparents to starve or not get medical care, by all means be pragmatic, but if it is only to make your own life easier, your copping out on your own beliefs.
“above all else, to thine own self be true” – WS