What kind of crazy government would allow this?
A Saudi Arabian judge has refused to overturn a ruling that declared the arranged marriage of an 8-year-old girl to a 47-year-old man legal, a relative says.
The judge, Sheikh Habib Habib, ruled for the second time Saturday in Onaiza that the girl’s marriage to a friend of her father’s was legal and binding. He said the child wife could file for divorce once she reached puberty, CNN reported.
Why would a parent arrange such a marriage? “The girl’s father arranged the marriage with his ‘close friend’ to pay off a monetary debt.”
Sounds like child prostition to me.
Which is downright biblical, of course. I wonder if the Koran has something similar:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt unfairly with her. (Exodus 21:7-8, NRSV)
It’s a wonder people can read that and still think the Bible is our “absolute standard of morality.” Thankfully, we’ve progressed beyond the crude morals of ancient holy books.
Well, at least in some places.
It’s good to know that the world is making progress. This time it actually went to a court!
Exodus 21:7-8 is on my top ten list of most disgusting Bible verses. Just in case you want to sell your daughter as a sex slave, god lays out the proper procedure so we don’t do it wrong. We wouldn’t want to accidently sin by not follow god’s slave selling procedure.
Selling your child as a sex slave = good and part of god’s plan
Saying god’s name in vain = sinful and punishable by death
That makes perfect god damn sense.
But it makes concessions! It says they’re allowed to redeem themselves if they don’t please the master instead of just being sold off right away!
Does “he shall let her be redeemed” mean that she can redeem herself? If so, how does she get the money to buy herself back? What happens to her after that, since surely, if she’s no longer a virgin, she’s worthless in the eye of society (and possibly her family) anyway?
Does the father then owe her ‘husband’ the money again?
She is still a virgin. The Bible forbids people to have sex with children!
“If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself” means if the master did not give the money to her father as a dowry, with the intention of marrying her when she grew up, he must free her when she reaches puberty, even if she hasn’t worked off her debt. She will then be able to marry. Until recent centuries, people married when reaching puberty (aged 15 or so).
“He shall let her be redeemed” means the master may not refuse to release her if the family can pay back the loan early (before she works off her debt) and he must deduct the value of her labor from principle.
They cannot be resold at all, MahouSniper. Reading the whole chapter of Exodus makes it plain the “master” has an obligation to protect his “slaves” from harm, does not own children born to a slave, may not split up families, or use them sexually. This is not “Roots”!
The morals were not crude in the ancient Bible.
“She is still a virgin. The Bible forbids people to have sex with children!”
I’m pretty sure Saudi Arabia has more of a Koran based society. So they probably don’t pay much attention to the Bible. But Idk. I’m not an expert on foreign countries’ religions. I see your point in analyzing the verse, though. Good job at supporting your point :) (as far as I can tell, anyways. But someone else probably has a different take on that).
I attend a catholic highschool, and even my RELIGION TEACHER agrees that morals were crude in the bible. if you have ever actually read the bible all the way through (which I have, twice), you would know that the bible is sick and wrong about 1/3 of the time. Examples:
“But if … evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones…” (Deuteronomy 22:20,21)
“Slaves are to be submissive to their masters in everything, and to be well-pleasing, not talking back .” (Titus 2:9)
“Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. ” (1 Peter 2:18)
Absolute madness.
Think about redeeming a coupon, and you’ll get the sense of the verse.
And you thought it couldn’t be made worse.
Whoops, replied to the wrong thread. Sorry, Roger.
What does it mean, If she does not please her master … then he shall let her be redeemed? Abandoned? Killed/sent to meet her maker? What?
It does not surprise me that the mother’s appeal was overturned, because of course in some parts of the world (Saudi included) the opinions of women and children (especially female children) are completely irrelevant. Even though in the western world we suffer occasional mild misogeny, for the most part we are very lucky indeed by comparison.
IMO, cases like the one in the article are simply license for paedophilia.
I saw a medical documentary a couple of years ago where a (female) British surgeon went to Africa to operate on very young women who had been made to have sex very young, sometimes even before puberty. When (after puberty) they gave birth to babies (many of which were stillborn), their pelvises and internal organs were not yet full-sized. The baby’s head forcing down would cause a fissure, which meant that potentially the girl would be incontinent of urine (and sometimes faeces) for the rest of her life. At that point, almost universally the husband would divorce the girl, still aged 12, 13, 14… and abandon her to her fate. In some cases, the surgeon could repair the damage, in most she would need to perform a colostomy and/or nephrostomy, which as you can imagine, in Africa, woud be fraught with aftercare problems anyway. Most young women in Africa with this condition are unable to get to a hospital or afford an operation.
Sorry for the graphic, but I hope you take my point.
The video on this topic is called “A Walk to Beautiful” From Nova/PBS.
It is quite stirring. If you really want to be moved at how wretched the Third World can be, , watch it.
Here’s a link;
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/beautiful/program.html
It means if he is not accepting the money from her father as a dowry with the promise of marrying her when she grows up; he must allow her family to buy her freedom early.
So how would one go about redeeming her?
“I think it’s great that Saudis are able to choose one or the other,” Sheikh Habib Habib responded. “But in my country, and in my family, I think that I believe that marriage should be between a man and a child. No offense to anybody out there, but that’s how I was raised.”
A man and a woman is disgusting and wrong! That’s much too old! Ban post-pubescent marriage!
What about dirty old women seeking pre-pubescent boys? That’s cool too, right?
It is sad that these marriages are often about the monetary gain (paying off debts) for the parents of the girl and the she will agree to it to help her family.
Another gift of the power of money and poverty in our world.
Well America, welcome to the true face of the country which spawned Osama Bin Laden, owns 50%+ of America in real terms and which is your closest ally in the Middle East barring Israel. I don’t know why you’re shocked at this. Kuwait is just as bad, and you fought a war to put their unelected, undemocratic dictator back in power!
Redeem, according to my lappy’s built-in dic means
It also specifically mentions
So if she doesn’t “please” her new master, she can either be returned for a refund, or must be set free. You can’t sell her on to someone else.
My question is, what does this mean:
and this:
“she shall not go out as the male slaves do”
male HEBREW slaves can leave his owner after serving for 6 years, women can’t.
“since he has dealt unfairly with her”
King James version translates it by
“8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her”
I imagine “please her master” means while doing sex with him, so the girl is not virgin but still is not married with his owner. If he let’s her go she’s going to have problems: she has being “deceived”.
You can see some images at “the brick testament”
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/slavery/ex21_02a.html
Anyway, those laws are doing “Godly-laws” some society’s laws of this time and region. In a crappy (and old-fashioned) way they are “protecting” the women of some abuse too. What fundis can’t see is that doing so was the only way for them to have something similar to a legislation. It’s as “holy inspired” as the constitution or the penal code. Luckily, our morals are better than god’s morals.
Fortunately, it is nothing like you imagined! I explained some of the verses elsewhere in these comments. But the kids are NOT sex slaves. The laws do protect the women and the men. I think G-d has even better morals than people.
The layout of the site just changed — spooky, must have been god’s will or maybe a ghost. Keep an open mind is what I say!
The koran mandates a waiting period after divorce to see if the wife is pregnant, and “… those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated’ (Qur’an 65:4)
Any number of clerics interpret this as a stamp of approval, and there’s a lot more in the hadith.
My favorite part about this story is actually something Daniel didn’t mention (I am quoting from CNN, which posted about this a few days back):
“The relative said the judge, Sheikh Habib Al-Habib, “stuck by his earlier verdict and insisted that the girl could petition the court for a divorce once she reached puberty.” The family member, who requested anonymity, added that the mother will continue to pursue a divorce for her daughter.”
You gotta love it: she can legally be forced to be married, but she has to wait until she has grass on the field to get out of it. How does that make any sense? Of course, we crazy secularists feel that the woman should have the say as to whether or not she’s married, and she should have to be old enough to really make decisions for herself before diving into a marriage. But what do we know? We’re heathens.
And by didn’t, I apparently mean did. Oops :(
@Zotmaster:
She can be forced into marriage because marriage in Islam is a contract between three parties: the husband, the bride, and the bride’s guardian or legal representative (usually the father). In Shariah, the “silence of the virgin is her consent” as per the hadith, so the fact that this girl had no objection – and I would wager she had no idea what they were talking about if they even did bother asking her – is her legal consent.
Entering into a contract of marriage does not necessarily entail that the marriage will be immediately consummated or even that the two parties are living together. It is rather common for consummation and cohabitation to be delayed even between two adults. It seems to be an unknown, from the stories about this case that have come up in the Middle Eastern media, if the child is living with her father, mother, other relatives or this ‘husband’. Because the judge ruled that she herself needs to seek her khul, or release, at puberty rather than her mother and other relatives, I suspect that she is living with one of her parents. (It is not a divorce; women do not have the right to a divorce in Islamic law. That is a bad translation of the world khul. They have the right petition for a release from their marriage contract with a judge, who will then decide if the marriage will be dissolved or if she should stay married to the man).
Initiating marriage contracts with underaged girls and boys is permissible in Islamic law for two reasons. One is what I mentioned above – that it is a contract and does not require that you consummate and cohabitate right away. Many well to do people even today have contracts drawn up between their children when they are young to ensure that the family money stays between friends and extended family, like royals used to.
The second reason, and please do get out your barf bags, is that Muhammad initiated a contract with a girl aged six and consummated with her, according to her own witness, at age 9. Therefore, it is not permissible to say that underage marriage is haraam, or forbidden, since a sunnah or prophetic precedence was set by Muhammad who is, naturally, the ‘totally best and most perfectest example for, like, all people and all times forever and ever ameen.’ Consummation is not permissible until she reaches menses or (according to some jurists) she can ‘handle the act’. Feel free to vomit now.
O/T
Me being stupid, but on this *new* blog how do I set it to notify me when ppl reply?
What kind of crazy government would allow this?
A pedophile?
I wonder if the Koran has something similar:
Every time I read brutal stuff like this story, I have to remind myself that the Koran is the “New Testament” of Islam. The Old Testament both religions have in common. It’s just that Muslims are better at “keeping” the “loving” Law of God.
Sometimes I think the Bible should be declared illegal. Pile of crap!
I was actually referring to the judge. Sorry.
Just for the record, because I am a little confused by your comment, I wanted to clarify that Islam doesn’t use the Taurah / Tanakh or Old Testament at all. Or the New one for that matter. Only the Quran as far as ‘god’s holy word’ and the Sunnah which would be akin to the Talmud or capital-T Tradition in Catholicism. Although many stories in the Quran are similar to stories from the Bible, when it comes to Islamic law and practice, the Bible is irrelevant in Islam.
I agree with your comment about making the bible illegal up to a point. I think people should know what a pile of crap it is, but banning it will just make it a cause for some idiot to fight for. Also, some people live by the parts of it that aren’t completely evil and it’s good for them I guess.
Theocracy.
I don’t call it child prostitution, I call it human trafficing! And it’s WRONG!
J.R. You’re right – and it’s WRONG in any number of ways. Remind me please – we ARE in the 21st Century, right?
Tis is yet another reason I detest religion. I do encourage people who have never seen the third world to go if they can. It’s an eye opener for anyone raised in the western world to see what people in it take for granted as normal. Kind of like being raised in an abusive home, its not till your grown and see others lives that you go WTF!
“She shall not go out by herself as man servants do” does not mean she can’t leave the house. “Going out” refers to being freed from indentured servitude. Men may get their freedom early if they have been physically injured. Women need only serve for six years or until puberty, whichever comes first. This means a girl who was indentured during childhood does not have to redeem herself (work off her total debt).
“If she does not please her master” means if he did not agree to marry her in exchange for giving the money to her father, then he must free her when she reaches the age I defined above.
Source: Rabbi Solomon bar Isaac (1040-1105 AD) and Rabbi Shmuel ben Meir (1085-1174 AD)