Even secular folks can join Christians in celebrating the excruciating death of their God on a cross today. If he didn’t die, would we be getting all this awesome candy? I’m not so sure.
So thanks, Jesus! Om nom nom.
(via)
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Of course we would get candy, because Easter is simply the Roman spring Festival!
Xtians don’t know when Christ was actually crucified, so they conveniently choose the same week as the Roman celebrations of the Goddess Flora because Christ rose being dead like her flowers do.
(Never mind the that old testament commanded them not to take traditions from other cultures.)
” marry other hermaphrodites?, this is certainly an oddity in human existence, obviously a result of the sin of fallen man, but no clear answer here. ”
Exactly how do you know the fall of man is responsible for hermaphrodites.
Also even if it the fall of man is the reason why your perfect loving god allows some humans to be born not quite male or female if he really meant for all men and women to marry members of the opposite sex why would he allow folks who are biologically in between women and men.
Does this really make sense to you?
” Do you know any hermaphrodites? Are they conflicted with their sexuality? If not maybe they recognize their place in the order of husbands and wives, for instance ”
Know I don’t know any hermaphrodites but the fact is you cant have it both ways. You cant make statements such as god meant for man and women only to marry but on the other hand god allows people who are in between male and female to be born.
In Spite of the fall you are claiming that god against homosexuality, gay marriage etc. If this is true then why would god create humans who do not fit the deffinition of male or female.
This is seems to contradict your beliefs that god is against homosexuality, if it doesn’t please explain how it doesn’t.
My point which you seems to have missed doug is, if a hermaphrodite who is lets say 50% male and 50% female biologically wants to get married who should they marry a male or a female.
Also would your Invisible Sky Daddy be Ok with this.
Markbey,
First let me establish this:
A hermaphrodite is a person who possesses the sexual organs of both male and female. The Bible does not address hermaphroditism. Therefore, it is difficult to doctrinally ascertain the Lord’s position about them. Nevertheless, what are we to make of hermaphrodites?
God’s intention of the sexes is that those born males act like males and those born females act like females. But, in rare instances there are babies born with the sexual organs of both sexes. Why is this? First of all, sin is in the world and it sometimes takes its tolls on our bodies resulting in various deformities. Nevertheless, in the case of hermaphroditism, the identity of the individual is still intended by God to be one or the other. After all, God would not make someone in contradiction to His created order and purpose. This means the hermaphrodite, thought physically ambiguous, does possess an identity of one or the other. It would seem best, then, to let the hermaphrodite grow and decide which gender to side with since he/she would know his/her own identity internally. If surgery is elected to make the decision permanent by altering the body to represent one or the other sexes, then that seems like a reasonable choice to make.
Second, it appears that most, if not all, hermaphrodites have a definite side they take as they develop since there is an internal genetic (XX, XY) dominance even though there is an external ambiguity. It is the internal genetic dominance that determines male and female — even though sometimes mutations occur that leave both sexual organs. In some cases, there are hermaphrodites who are distinctly male in appearance yet have female sexual organs. There are also those who appear decidedly feminine in physical appearance yet possess male sexual organs. Either way, the genetic dominance is the sex and the person will manifest that dominance as he or she matures.
If you will notice in my responses, I am showing that there are differences in peoples sexuality, whether they are physically affected (hermorphodites) or mentally affected (homosexual and gay), there is a difference in the genetics, as with ALL people.
Homosexuals make a choice to be homosexuals, hermorphodites are born with this make up. I believe that if a hermo decides they want to be male of female they can choose either or, or be with other hermorphodites. Just like Gays choosing to be with other gays.
The fact that God made us perfect and we fell away from his grace through Adam, opens up all types of imperfections in our human bodies, cancer, genetic heart disease, limbs that are not fully developed, blind, deaf, etc…this does not mean that each individual sinned and caused this, it is simply because of the fall.
God also speaks of women going through the pain of childbirth, something that wasn’t present in his original plan, but because of sin, he allowed it.
To wrap this up, God allows sinful man to choose, he doesn’t always zap us because we have made the wrong choice, that is the proof to me that He loves us more than we could ever think or imagine.
Ultimately the discussions that we are having on this blog present a ‘no win” or no conclusion as we are coming for 2 different sources, the Christ followers get there wisdom and inspiration from God and His Word, something we feel is without error and irrefutable. The non-believers get their information from current proven scientific fact (or they claim). Your spirit will always be in conflict with your flesh, never shall the two agree.
This is why Jesus had to die, to bridge the gap between the Spirit and the flesh. Only those who accept this and receive His spirit will be able to agree on the essentials.
And, if you are looking for a perfect Christ-follower, you will be disappointed, Christ-followers serve a perfect God in an imperfect world, only He is perfect. Believers are in the process of progressive sanctification, being made Holy day by day until He returns.
“If you will notice in my responses, I am showing that there are differences in peoples sexuality, whether they are physically affected (hermorphodites) or mentally affected (homosexual and gay), there is a difference in the genetics, as with ALL people.
Homosexuals make a choice to be homosexuals, hermorphodites are born with this make up. I believe that if a hermo decides they want to be male of female they can choose either or, or be with other hermorphodites. Just like Gays choosing to be with other gays.”
Doug:
Up until this specific post I could at least respect what you had to say, and even enjoyed the debate. This post, on the other hand, is a gross display of biased arrogance and unintelligible babble.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that being born with a physical disabilty, a mental disability, homosexual, or hermaphrodite is because of sin.
To try and rationalize a child being born a hermaphrodite-or better yet-with down syndrome as a result of
Annabella,
I guess I should explain further, (as the Bible states) because of the fall men and women experienced death. The ailments, diseases and abnormalities mentioned in my post can certainly lead to certain death. My intention was not to link those situations directly to the fall of man.
ROMANS 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned– 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. – Romans 5 (NIV)
And I do enjoy your posts as well.
There are countries where the punishment for homosexuality, right now, yesterday and probably tomorrow, is death.
Not “sit on death row for five or ten years and maybe capital punishment will be outlawed by then” punishable by death, real “we’ll chop your head off at dawn” punishable by death.
There are homosexuals living in those countries.
I find these facts to be in glaring opposition to the idea that homosexuality is a choice. Maybe in some cases it’s a choice, or the choice is whether or not to hide it, or something, but I don’t see how the idea that all homosexuality is a choice is the product of anything but limited experience.
I got cut off-my apologies.
As a result of “the sin of man” is just obsurd. These are all disabilites that are purely scientific anomalies made up of genetic mutations.
Your post shows again the many contradictions in the Bible, and for that reason, I will re-post a study done to examine the particular passages you are quoting.
“It is a fundamental part of Calvinism, and therefore found in the official doctrines and histories of most Protestant churches. But not only that, it is also an integral part of Catholicism. One Catholic theologian put it this way; he said, “…all men except Jesus and His blessed mother are born subject to death and deprived of grace…”
The Protestant reformers, including Luther and Calvin, included the idea in their creeds as well. For this reason, Catholic and many Protestant denominations practice infant baptism. At least originally, the practice began as a way to save the infant from spiritual and everlasting condemnation due to the sins he or she inherited from their parents at birth.
Essentially, this doctrine holds that sin is inherited; that a child is lost in sin at birth and a child is totally depraved at birth. When it is pointed out that Jesus was born of Mary, it is explained that Jesus did not inherit sin because Mary was sinless (this in spite of the fact that the Bible plainly tells of Mary offering her sin offerings according to the Law; see Luke 2:22-24 and Leviticus 5:7-13). When asked how it was that Mary was born without inheriting sin, the answer is that Mary, herself, was “immaculately conceived.” The Scriptures nowhere teach anything like this at all.
The doctrine that we are born in sin is a false doctrine, pure and simple. It contradicts plain Bible passages concerning the nature of sin and the definition of sin. We see this in the teaching of God’s prophet Ezekiel, for example. The Spirit inspired Ezekiel to teach;. “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.” (Ezekiel 18:20). The creeds of men say the son does bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, but the word of God says he does not. The choice is ours as to which to believe.
Passages Used By Those Who Believe We Are Born In Sin
There must be some defense that is offered from the Bible to advance such teaching. Of course, even Satan will misuse Scripture to his own ends. The question is, “Does the Bible teach that we are born in sin” not “Can I force the doctrine into a passage?” Let’s take a brief look at the best defenses of the doctrine that are offered. If there is any merit to it at all, this is where we will find it.
(Psalm 51:5) “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.” This is from a Psalm of David after his sin with Bathsheba. It deals with the sin of an adult, and shows the repentance of an adult (vs. 10-13). David does not say he was a “sinner baby” but rather that his mother conceived him in sin. Read it again and see! David was born into a sinful world. Sin was all around him from birth, so he was ‘brought forth in iniquity.” The Jewish writers who wrote of this Psalm say the same thing.; David is saying that he was born into a sinful environment.
(Psalm 58:3) “The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.” First, note that if these people were born astray then they could not “go astray from birth.” Infants are born into a sinful world with their eyes and ears wide open. They are so inquisitive, beginning to learn immediately through taste, touch, sound, sight and smell. They are watching, and they see evil all around them constantly from birth. They may not know it is evil yet, but it is there and it does influence them. The clincher is this: the ones going astray speak lies, so the going astray has to be accomplished, at the very least, only after the person has learned to speak!
(Ephesians 2:3) “Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.” What made these people “children of wrath”? Was it something they inherited or something they had done? Verses 1 and 2 help us to answer that question. “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world…” They were “by nature” what they were. “Nature” here does not refer to constitutional character but rather to habit… sin became natural, or we sometimes say, “second nature” to them by their long and diligent practice of it.
Passages Which Contradict The Concept of Being Born in Sin
(Matthew 18:3) “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus said we must become converted and like little children. He would not tell us to do this if children were truly born totally depraved. If they were born as totally depraved that would mean that there is nothing in them that is not depraved and therefore we should not become like children in any sense. But Jesus said there was something in children that we need to take as our example (their humility). This passage shows that children are not born totally depraved (see also Psalm 106:36-39).
(Hebrews 12:9) “Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?” Here, God is referred to as the “Father of spirits.” While we inherit our physical attributes from our physical parents, our inner person, our spirit, we get from God. Our spirit is created ‘in His image.” If we are born totally depraved, then we are depraved in body and spirit. If that is the case, then we inherit our sinful, depraved spirits from God! But in God there is no evil, and therefore none to pass on to us.
(2 Timothy 3:13) “But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” If we were born totally depraved, then we could not get worse.
(Luke 8:15) “…these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.” If total depravity is true, then there is no such thing as “good and honest” hearts.
One final point. God defines sin for us. It is not something inherited, nor does He define it as something we are born with. Lord, what is sin? God answers: “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.” (1 John 3:4). Sin is not something we are born with; it is something we do. When we break God’s law, we sin. The good news is that the gospel of Christ is the power of God to take away our sins.”
The homosexuality argument will be saved for a later date.
Look, Anabella Hardgrove, gay people do not choose to be gay, just as straight people do not choose to be straight. People do not choose their sexual orientations. Their sexual orientations choose them. This is now recognized by psychiatrists and psychologists and their professional associations.
Homophobes who think that homosexuals choose their sexual orientation feel they have a valid reason to change or “cure” gay people. This position on homosexuality merely legitimizes homophobic bigotry.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
this gave me quite the chuckle this morning.. reminds me of the eddie izzard skit about easter..on the dress to kill show
The pagans had big festivals
on Easter and Christmas.
Christians had big festivals
at Easter and Christmas.
Jesus died on one and was born
on the other. Hm-hm-hm-hmm?
Cos…Jesus I do think did exist.
He was a guy
who had interesting ideas
in the Gandhi area, the Nelson
Mandela area – relaxed and groovy.
The Romans thought,
“Relaxed and groovy? No
So they murdered him.
Kids eat chocolate eggs
because the color of the chocolate
and the color of
the wood on the cross…
Well, you tell me.
It’s got nothing to do with it,
has it?
People are going, “Remember kids,
Jesus died for your sins.”
“Yeah, I know, it’s great.”
“No, it’s bad.”
“It’s bad. lt’s terrible”
“Whatever you want.
Just keep giving me these eggs.”
And the bunny rabbits, where do
they come into the Crucifixion?
There were no rabbits going,
“You putting crosses in our warrens?
“We live below this hill, all right?”
Bunny rabbits are for shagging,
eggs are for fertility.
It’s the spring festival.
It should also be submitted to: http://failblog.org/
Me, I think we’d be nomming chocolate for the Equinox, which was weeks ago. Damn you Jesus! Postponing my chocolate!
Isn’t it obvious what Jesus and rabbits have to do with each other? No animal gets nailed more than a rabbit…
Q: What were Jesus’ last words?
A: Ow. Ow. Ow.
I can haz candee? Om nom nom nom!
Why don’t they just make chocolate Jesus? We could bite the ears off first, just like chocolate bunnies.
Cadbury Mini Eggs are like Platonic (perfect, ideal) M&Ms.
Quote:
Xtians don’t know when Christ was actually crucified, so they conveniently choose the same week as the Roman celebrations of the Goddess Flora because Christ rose being dead like her flowers do.
J. Allen, don’t you know Jesus entered Jerusalem to celebrate Passover. The Passover meal was the Last Supper. The Bible speaks, therefore, specifically about when Jesus died, and is not just the Roman ‘Spring Festival’. You want to know why Easter jumps around the calender like an ADD sufferer with a caffeine addiction? It’s cause it’s based on the Jewish calender, and Passover occurs during the first week after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox.
Everyone knows that Easter is when the Easter Bunny Jesus comes out of his hole after three days to lay colored eggs all over the yard. While he’s out, if he sees his shadow, we get 4 more weeks of winter. If he doesn’t see his shadow, he goes and gets all of the stuff that he lent out to people when he thought he was going to die, which is where lent comes from… people spend 40 days trying to learn to do without what Jesus gave them in case he wants it back on Easter.
I don’t believe in any gods.
Therefor i’m not a hypocryt and don’t celebrate any days that have to do with any religion.
I had a talk about that with a friend of mine today, and we agreed that people should create their own special celebrations.
Mine are old/newyear, my birthday and whenever i feel like suddenly throwing a party (which is about 5 times a year)
Hilarious!
Along the same lines: http://www.zombiejesusday.org
LOL!!!! This cracked me up. Thank you
In spite of the mockery on this blog, our risen Lord still loves each and every one of you. As long as you are alive, God will hold back His judgement and give you the opportunity to know Him. Christ didn’t come to condemn any of us, but to save us.
Happy resurrection day!
Prove it…or shut up.
Love this!
Just posted my own Happy Easter bit:
http://billpost.blogspot.com/2009/04/happy-easter.html
Don’t really like this, provocative and insulting just for a cheap laugh which isn’t really witty or humourous.. kind of childish
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the story I heard about collecting easter eggs & bunnies comes from the N. sea islands where every spring people used to row out to collect the eggs of seabirds. the birds hunt fish during the day, meanwhile, wild rabbits crawl in their snuggly nests to keep warm. it still happens but the bird eggs are protected now (mostly)
this blog is very short-sited…if you really knew what jesus did he didnt just die after the third day he rose from the dead! idk bout you but thats what im thankful for, not having to spend eternity in hell, i get to spend it with my savior who showed me ultimate love by giving up his life for me and everyone else.
I wish christians would think about their mythology instead of just mouthing it like parrots.
Where is your Jesus now? He’s at the side of the father, no? Where is the sacrifice if God still has his son?
do you by any chance have a Christian Background? and if so do you think you are a good person? if you do think that you are good than please go to http://www.wayofthemaster.com and do the Good Person Test. it’s really cool!!!!
Would a patient participant – or perhaps the blogmaster -care to explain the rationale behind the angst towards Jesus Christ that’s present in this thread?
It seems a bit untoward to cruelly jest about someone’s vicious murder, if one doesn’t believe that it really happened.
In Christ,
CD
I am sorry that today was the day to bash Christianity. It’s sad that there is so much anger here. I clicked on the blog just checking WordPress. Disconcerting that this would be their image on one of the Holiest days of the year. I realize that many of you feel enlightened by rejecting Christ. I hope you reconsider. Have a good weekend.
I love it!
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Roger asked: …do you know what this blog is about? At all?
Actually as far as I know this is my first visit here.
This being said I had assumed this is an atheist blog, in which case I should expect that no particular deity would receive any particular notice or interest.
But perhaps it’s actually an anti-theist blog?
If so, then I might expect that all deities might receive more or less equal time being ridiculed, pilloried, etc.
Maybe because this is the week that many Christians worldwide meditate upon Jesus Christ’s passion, cross work, death, burial and glorious resurrection He gets some special treatment? Maybe a little gratuitous abuse? Maybe a little razzle-dazzle to rile up the poor, ignorant Bible-thumpers?
It just seems rather petty…that’s all. See, here’s the thing – I would think that maybe people who don’t believe in something might have other more important, pressing, or interesting things to do than sit around at their keyboards and viciously malign things they don’t even believe in, you know?
For example I should find it quite strange indeed if this blog were dedicated to heaping contempt, disdain, and ridicule upon “The Flying Spaghetti Monster”, and the combox participants were busily making up jokes and leaving harsh remarks about how utterly foolish, hateful and sinister the concept of a”Flying Spaghetti Monster” truly is.
Just a thought.
In Christ,
CD
Unthinking lightweights constantly attempt to infer a continuation of ancient festival celebrations as a backdrop for christian traditions. Obviously Jesus death was very specific and intended to be completed at the height of the Passover week since he was the true sacrifice for the world. The Jewish passover was only a foreshadowing of what was required to appease God’s wrath against sin. His rising from the dead brought new life and hope into the world.
Roger said: Oh, get over it.
Hmmm…seems a bit less than hospitable of you, but after all, it’s your blog space and your life, right?
Carry on!
In Christ,
CD
I’m not an atheist, I was raised in a Christian household/community.
However, I have found over the years that the one thing that bothered me the most about organized religion was how it took away the right of the people to believe what THEY wanted to believe.
I never understood how we could have traditions that were so NOT a part of what Christianity supposedly stood for and actually represented everything that Christians stood against. How could we celebrate the birth of Christ in December when he was born closer to the summer (June/July?). Why do we buy into all the commercialism that comes with these “holy traditions”. Why must we have the best decorations? The most twinkle lights? The glowing baby Jesus? The biggest tree? The chocolate eggs? The bunnies? The massive amounts of CRAP that we spend money on just to impress other people or buy a one way ticket into those pearly gates?
And WHHHHY won’t Christians, Muslims and Jews realize that most of the worlds religions all have something in common? That there is text older than the scrolls proving that holy stories similar to Christian ones, were being told hundreds of years before Christ and Christianity?
I never understood how, as Christians, we condemned other religions. Wasn’t God about love, acceptance, respect for fellow man and all that good stuff? Why did this sect have to be more right than that one? Why all the different sects? Because there were so many rules? Who made those rules? Pretty sure it wasn’t Jesus. Man wrote the bible and Man made those rules.
I’m spiritual but not religious. I believe that there is a God (or God’s or even Goddesses) and I believe that I should live a good life because it’s the right thing to do. NOT because I want some free pass into Heaven.
Thanks for this blog…I like that you can point out the fact that some who would call themselves devout spend more time following traditions and spouting forgiveness while quoting text than actually trying to do good for themselves or their fellow man.
Now excuse me, I have some chocolate bunny ears to eat.
The invention would not have been possible at all.
oh, i love this so much!
It’s even better – candy plus eternal life!
…because nothing says devotion like a wind-up, egg-pooping bunny!
Isn’t freewill wonderful? We all have the opportunity to at some point in our lives come to understand our brokenness, and then decide just how to deal with it…there’s that river in Egypt approach, and the “I’m much too fast to take that test” approach, even the “someday when sin just isn’t so much fun I’ll consider it” approach…Someday we’ll all “approach” God, on our knees, confessing the truth! personally, I think that you guys need to come up with some much better material,if you try spouting off some of the stuff I’ve read here to Him it’s NOT going to be pretty…it’s YOUR eternity,and YOUR choice, choose wisely…
I don’t think I’ve ever seen “Om nom nom” in writing before; yet, I can hear a cartoon character nom-nomming so clearly when I read it. Great job.
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I find it interesting that chocolate is so extensively used for Easter when the folks of that time didn’t even know it existed!
Chocolate comes from the cacao plant and that is indigenous to the Americas :)
And also, if your imaginary sky friend is so all powerful, then why did it need a blood sacrifice to “appease” it’s wrath? Seems kind of…stupid, don’t’cha think?
The answer to your question is no, it isn’t stupid at all.
The One True and Living God of the Holy Bible is the unique and sole Creator of all things in existence, and all things hold together by the power of His Word alone. Mankind became sinfully corrupted when the federal head and representative of our race, Adam, rebelled against the Creator, bringing God’s curse upon all those born of the flesh after Adam, which includes every human being ever born apart from the Lord Jesus Christ.
The curse of sin and death corrupted every part of the fallen creature man, who is now subject of futility in his life and mind. Even his reasoning power – his thought life – is full of sin and rebellion against the knowledge of God. As you might imagine this places man in a terrible predicament because he still retains the knowledge within his own consciousness that he is made in the image of God – that even in his fallen state he is still God’s image bearer – yet he is driven by his sinful heart of rebellion and active personal disobedience to God’s authority to suppress the knowledge of God in unrighteousness. And it must be noted that mankind is morally and personally (individually) culpable and responsible for his own rebellion and he knows it.
Man clearly sees the revelation of the One True and Living God in the natural order, man sees his power on display everywhere and at all times and man even senses his Creator’s infinite perfections within immaterial and transcendent universal laws such as logic itself. The very foundation of reason requires the presupposition of a perfect and holy transcendent God, yet the rational materialist cannot account for things such as transcendent universal laws, and must therefore by necessity be driven to futility and irrationality, because the alternative is nothing less than to acknowledge the truth of the absolute authority of the One True and Living God of the Holy Bible.
The Muslims don’t have a god like the One True and Living God, in fact the Koran rejects Him outright, substituting “Allah”, the moon god, in His place.
The Jews have rejected the One True and Living God because they rejected Him when He came into the world as Jesus Christ. They have substituted the vain traditions of men and legalism for the knowledge of Him.
Like Islam and traditional Judaism all the religions of men that have ever existed are idolatrous and are merely streams of the one false religion of human merit. People are driven to do “good things” because their Creator made them to serve Him, but since He is rejected people turn their desires to do “good things” toward idols, thereby corrupting any goodness they may have thought to do in the process and heaping even more sin upon their own heads.
Biblical Christianity is the one pure and true religion which is based not upon what men do for their “god”, or for other men, or for themselves, but rather is based upon what God has done for men. God Almighty miraculously took on human flesh and came into the world in the person of Jesus Christ, the second Adam, to live the perfect life that God demands of all people everywhere. In doing this Christ fulfilled all the obligations of God as revealed in the Holy Bible, thus being fully and totally righteous in and of Himself, something no other human being could ever have done.
Christ stands in the place of sinners as their substitute, reconciling to God all those who come to Him by grace alone, through faith alone. Jesus Christ bore God’s holy wrath against sin upon the cross making Himself the only mediator between God and men, and the only hope of salvation leading to eternal life. The alternative is abiding under the eternal wrath of God in hell.
Because of these truths all men and women everywhere who are apart from Christ stand condemned, abiding under the wrath of the Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God Almighty to whom all praise and glory is due from all His creatures.
And perhaps the saddest part is that people recognize these truths in their heart of hearts. They know something is wrong, even if they can’t place their finger on it. In their heart of hearts they know they abide under the wrath of an angry, righteous God above them, they know they have a guilty conscience within them constantly wagging its accusing finger in their face crying “guilty, Guilty, GUILTY!”, and they know there’s a yawning hell beneath them where there is eternal punishment in flames and weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It’s for these Christ came. He came to seek and save the lost and gave His life for them.
Allah didn’t do that.
Buddha didn’t do that.
No one else did that.
The God of the Holy Bible is wrathful and requires justice because He is perfect. This is why he requires appeasement of His wrath. He would be less than perfect and in fact would be an unjust judge if He simply “forgave” people out of some sort of feeling of cosmic benevolence.
Even sinful lost human beings can see the breach of justice. If a judge simply “forgave” everyone who came before his bench, regardless of the crime committed and without any consideration of the guilt or innocence of the accused we’d call him unjust and demand that he be removed. If every judge acted in this manner then all the criminal justice systems in the world would collapse.
It’s because God is just that He requires punishment for crimes against Him, and it’s because He is merciful that He came and paid the price Himself. Christians call this grace.
I wish you all a happy Resurrection Sunday!
In Christ,
CD
tl;dr
“It’s for these Christ came. He came to seek and save the lost and gave His life for them.”
Ironically enough there are billions of miserable awful people in the world. What did Christ do wrong?
Meanwhile the Buddha tries to set your soul at ease and help you understand what happiness is despite who you are while Christ is being a judgemental asshole, leading a whole religion of stubborn judgemental assholes. WHAT A COOL GUY!
Coram Deo said, “Christians call this grace.”
– My cat is named Grace :) She likes bunnies but she’s not so much into big spikes or chocolate candies.
God is Love.
“I wish you all a happy Resurrection Sunday!”
I am now in heaven using a heavenly computer until monday.
Thank you Christ for the foretaste of heaven.
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I can’t get enough of this circular reasoning. “I’m right because I’m right because I’m right…”
Pointing at yourself and saying “am so!” isn’t convincing. It’s childish.
“19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.”
I am still waiting in heaven for God to make it plain to me, sadly He and his angels are on earth celebrating with christians, so lonely up here, but I will be back on earth on monday.
Hitler was a Christian, so he’s automatically good in their book, right? One of them.
Well, let the zombie worshiping death cultists believe whatever they want.
All of you who are *not* insane, I hope you have a great weekend and… try to do something fun for the pagan fertility celebration these pseudochristians are going on about, OK?
I wonder if my cat, Grace, would like ^ Donny’s ^ porn?
*shudders*
Hey! Keester rhymes with Easter!
=P
Hey, congratulations on the success of your blog! I recently started my very own wordpress blog so hopefully you can check it out when you have the time. Good luck in the future!
http://chicagoismynewblog.wordpress.com/
As a Rhode Islander, I’d like to point out proudly that Jesus was crucified in our state. And anyone who doesn’t believe it just hasn’t looked at that scroll nailed to the top of the cross.
You guys ar sure uneducated about the facts. Easter is connected with the PAssover of the Jews. That’s why John the Baptist called him the Lamb of God which takes away the sins of the world. Jesus Christ died on Passover Day in 32 AD. He was the last Passover lamb to be slain. A pagan historian by the name of Thallus who lived in A.D. 52 recoreded that there was a miraculous darkness covering the face of the earth on Passover 32 A.D. So the hoiliday or day of celebration is rightly timed on the calendar. About the candy, I agree that it is not in keeping with the awesomeness of the event, yet, no other religion including Atheism can claim such a tremdous foundation of belief backed up by the facts. Easter is so exciting because shortly afterward the disciples of Jesus went into an upper room in Jerusalem where they were filled with the Holy Spirit and literally changed their known world. In fact Christianity was so powerful that even the Roman Eperor Constantine embraced Christianity for political purposes. This doesn’t sound like a farse or anomoly of sorts. They were so powerulf in their witnesses and miracles that their movement was irresistable. They had received God’s Spirit and it changed their lives. I use to be agnostic of sorts but when I encountered God first-hand it litterally changed my life. No one can refute that and it has been about thirty five years of joy and happiness. So guys, don’t knock it till you’ve tried it. I’m not talking about church, I’m talking about a personal encounter with God.
Thanks and Prayers
Greg
FocusonFreedom.net
fabulous!
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This is funnier–and perhaps less insulting?–than George Carlin’s bit about pork chops.
Just another reason why so many folks so dislike atheists. Pretty childish, this.
Truly funny people don’t have to belittle others spiritual beliefs to get a laugh. Turn about is fair play- “when you die, I hope you fry!” Ha ha- A riot, eh?
I will never understand the relation. Anyway, how is babby formed?
The bible was written by illiterate arabs back when they thought the earth was flat. Any 12 year old today knows incredibly more about the universe than the wisest man of biblical times.
Religion could not possibly be started today. Can you imagine a woman walking into any major hospital anywhere in the world today and explaining that she was a pregnant virgin and that she was carrying the child of a man or spirit in the sky.
“Code 69. Get someone down here from Psyche, STAT!”
Religion is something one inherits from their family,society, or culture. If Osama Bin Laden had been born in Kansas he would probably be a Baptist. If he had a good education he would probably be a scientist.
Flat. Pay attention to the word circle in the bible. You little Grasshopper.
Isaiah Chapter 40
[21] Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
[22] It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
[23] That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity.
[24] Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble.
[25] To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
[26] Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.
[27] Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?
[28] Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.
[29] He giveth power to the faint; and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
[30] Even the youths shall faint and be weary, and the young men shall utterly fall:
[31] But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
——————————————————————————–
Circles are Flat dumbass.
But thanks for throwing all the bible gobbledy gook up there.
I love the anachronistic thinking involved in this line of reasoning… Do they honestly think that anyone in the time of Isaiah (let alone Isaiah himself) believed the earth was anything other than flat?
It reminds me of muslims who say that the Koran mentions the big-bang, only to cite a few vague lines that could mean anything.
No, dear, you have to prove affirmatively that Christ “rose” from the dead. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. And no, Josephus isn’t a credible source, as his writings merely note that Jesus existed and had a following.
ok, maybe I scrolled too fast and missed this along the way, so bear with me, but yesterday I was at Barnes and Noble and saw this actual book (the one that began this thread). And so, having seen it here on Unreasonable Faith, I just had to read it and what a fine read it was indeed.
“It’s fun to decorate Easter eggs… turn page… BUT Jesus___________”. “It’s fun to wear new clothes, BUT Jesus________”. “It’s fun to go on egg hunts with my friends, BUT Jesus_______________”.
Dry heave. Nothing but a book to alleviate parental guilt that with all this fal-da-ra of new clothes, baskets, bunnies, and eggs, that oopsie- Jesus is getting lost in all the commotion (funny how Jesus does that so much- gets lost so easy I mean. Like my keys). So- let’s just fix that by having a fun little book to remind us of priorities here. Uh-huh. Like when you have to open the frickin’ card before you attack the wrapping on the present. Learned impulse control. Sorta like my black lab who must “shake hands” to get her treat. But can’t you see? She gets it. She’s not after the treat really- she wants to shake hands with you. Really. She does…
That was HI-larious! It’s a good thing you were listed as a top post, or I would never have come across your blog-and that would be ashame. YA RLY.
I was raised Catholic, and over 15 years ago (I’m 29) I realized that what the christian religion was trying to sale was complete and utter nonsense. Not so much about “God”, or a higher-power, (whatever you wish to call it) but in the sense of tradition. Organized religion is nothing more than a traditional superstition.
As far as the Bible is concerned, people only see/read what they want too. Line 10 random people up, have them read the same passage, and then ask each one what their interpretation was-you’ll get a different answer nearly everytime. Beyond that, any person of intelligence can clearly see the inconsistencies and contradictions amongst the “word of God.”
If I had to choose a religion, it would probably still be Roman Catholicism. This specific sect intrigues me, and I am convinced the Vatican knows way more than they are letting on. “Stigmata” is one of my favorite movies, the screen writer is a brilliant philosopher, and though the movie is technically fiction-it rings more truth then people realize.
annabella@
“Your Daily Dose of Random Revelations”
Jesus is not God he was born of a sinner woman, virgin birth, angels singing on his birthday, three kings bowed at him and etc. he is still not God.
God cannot die but Jesus died God is Spirit, formless but Jesus died and went to hell and the Spirit of God came to rescue him the so called resurrection. Jesus God needed another GOD to save him? What type of God is this? Your salvation is questionable and that’s why Christians are suffering miserable life you sideline God and worship man who is dead man can’t bless or save you.
Another thought God don’t eat but Jesus asked for food from the disciples at the seashore, after his resurrection. There are thousands over scripture stated Jesus is not God and he even deny of himself and said ‘no man is good but God the Father in me is ‘
Wow, Daniel. Will you ever run out of material? I mean, how many days in a row can you rake on Jesus before it gets a little old? I don’t know how old you are, but your material is stuff you could find if you went to the library and read stuff that is too old to get archived on Google (which has about a 5-year memory.)
Yeah. Joking about the crucifixtion and chocolate Easter bunnies is about as original as an NBC police show. It’s all been done before, but I guess that doesn’t stop people from still trying.
Reminds me of the Athiests Convention. They have one, you know. Every year, they have a keynote speaker. I would guess it’s the same talk – “There is no god!”
But we get it. You don’t believe in Jesus. That’s your right. But keep it coming. Never get tired of the “Why there was no Jesus” commentary. Been out there for 2000 years.
Religion is man trying to connect with the one Supreme God the Creator of the Universe unless your naive to believe all this happened here on earth and in the universe by Chance. Christianity is God sending His only begotten Son to earth in order to have a relationship with man and see his heart turn away from sin and closer to His creator.There is a hole in our heart we try to fill with religion, drugs, sex, anger, fear, unbelief etc that can only be filled by God. Take all the knowledge in the world. Maybe you know a dot on the grid. What if that dot of knowledge in the bigger picture is inaccurate and just maybe there is a God? We all have a choice to follow the ways of God in the Bible i.e. love, patience, kindness, worshiping God and no other idols etc. Or you can reject Him as they did Christ but no other figure who has walked the earth has split time as He did and no other figure has more followers who followed him in theses past 2,200 years.
Something to consider since none of us know it all. I bid you peace.
Great post. Funny too, when buying candy for the kids at Target last week I told my husband we should throw some toys in the baskets this year and skip the candy. He said, “but Easter has always been about the candy”. I looked at him and said, “no, honey, technically it’s about Jesus”.
May be a language barrier, but the title sounds me as a horrible sin and an insult to us, the Christ followers. God forgive you.
That’s what He’s supposed to be all about…forgiveness!
=P
Reformed Fred:
Hey there, what is this thread and other post you are speaking of? Can you link it? Also, if you enjoy this blog, you should check out mine. It’s not all about religion, but of many “random revelations.” If you enjoy entertainment, and controversy- you should enjoy my blog. It has everything from personal memoirs, to politics, to sports, and beyond.
http://annabellasepiphanies.wordpress.com/
Hope to see you soon!
xo
annabella
Hilarious how fired up everyone gets. Let me ask, has anyone changed their mind yet because of these posts? So eloquent, all of them, it would be a shame if not even one hit home with somebody on the other side of the fence…
perfect, elemenope, perfect.
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I’m always interested to listen in on debates about God, the existence of God, the role of God, the plan of God . . . you get the picture. Something I’ve discovered in listening and participating in such discussions is this: nobody is really out to change anyone elses mind. Everyone enters such debates with the knowledge that in such cases and hot topics as these, opinions are not changed. Rather, the whole point is to justify one’s own belief to the world, and in so doing, to make oneself look quite intelligent. I say this in regard to theists and atheists alike.
I’ve watched the atheist walk away proudly from heated discussions which clearly he won. Did he change the mind of his opponent. Not remotely. If anything, he strengthened the future faith of the theist by pointing out the present weaknesses of his arguments. Likewise, I’ve watched a theist dominate an argument in which he had the distinct advantage of intellect; he too walking away pleased with his victory, his opponent just as opposed to theism as before. This amuses me becuase it has always seemed to undermine the very cause of the argument in the first place. If either person can walk away feeling good that he has “won” when no new facts have been presented and no minds changed, is the argument really about God? I think not.
We all want to really believe what we say we believe. I will never believe a person who tells me that they have never doubted what they claim as truth. If the atheist argues, he does so to convince himself. If the theist argues, he does so to convince himself. The battle is internal; it has always been internal. The thrill of victory that comes after having duped one’s opponent in debate is not the result his reexamining his beliefs, but the satisfaction of reaffirming one’s own.
If the arguments were really about God, neither party would leave satisfied. If the arguments stemmed from reasons of true, unselfish concern for others, even the “winner” would leave with sorrow that his opponent had not been enlightened. If the argument were ever about anything besides confirming pre-held beliefs to oneself, the argument itself would cease to exist, for the argument never ceases to be about self.
To be human is to be selfish. To be human is to disagree. To be human is to believe. We argue in order that the world might know who we are. We argue in order that we might know the world. But we succeed only when we know who we are; when we know that we can convince ourselves of a thing, if nobody else; when we know that the opinions of the world matter as little to us as our opinions to the world.
Oh, and Tabbie,
“Live. Laugh. Love. Cry. Feel angry. Feel happy. Feel sad. Feel scorn. Feel pride. It’s all good, but we must remember to allow others the same choices we wish to have for ourselves. Free will, freedom of choice and freedom of thought…all these things are priceless.”
I couldn’t agree more. I’m not arguing against argument, I’m just taking a different approach.
this made me giggle, who knows what would of happened if jesus didnt die..humm..
:)
Why do the overly religious get hooked into the debates that will never be won on either side. I’m Christian, but I respect Rogers right to blog about his beliefs, and humour, and life, whatever. The arguments, all which are able to go round and round and round, bring out nothing but anger. Actually it’s not the arguments, it’s the arrogance on both sides. All religions and beliefs have schisms, and nobody will be 100% satisfied with all flavors. But each has a favorite. I myself, prefer the peanut butter/chocolate sugar free bunnies.
Happy Easter & Peace to all…
ANGRY ATHEISTS
Every so often a thread like this develops that brings in lots of new-to-the-blog Christians. One of the tropes that generalizes along behind is that nonbelievers in the thread are angry. Sure, there is a little anger here or there but really not much and certainly not in general.
It’s skewed and yet happens over and over. I’m interested because I don’t have a handle on the reason.
[quote]I love my family and friends.
I love them to a degree that when i feel like meeting up with them.. i make the time to meet up with them.
I don’t need some day that was picked by a church because of some religion to suddenly have the urge to meet up with my family.
To be honest.. especially christmas i find disgusting.
I really don’t need any excuse to stuff myself on any other day and i sure as hell (pun intended) don’t need some fat made up guy.. or some religion i don’t support to tell me that this 1 day i need to think about my family and friends.. and grandma who i normally wouldn’t bother to visit but i should right now because it’s christmas and otherwise i would be a horrid person.[/horrid]
I so totally agree. Religions were made by man to explain what could not be explained in an era when there was little to no science. Now we have the ability to explain things that happen around us and no longer need religion. I am an Atheist and do not need a religion based upon irrational beliefs to tell me when I should get together with my family, eat certain foods, etc. I especially hate Christmas because of all the hustle and bustle that interferes with my shopping enjoyment. Christmas is about greed and spending money that you don’t have so to keep the economy going. The mythical Jesus wasn’t even born in the wintertime.
My only consolation is that in the beginning, religions worshiped multiple numbers of gods and goddesses. Later, they decreased the number. Still later, they decreased it more. Now the major religions are down to one God. I can’t wait until they get rid of that one as well.
As far as Atheist who spend their time talking about something that they don’t believe in order to convince themselves not to believe – Christians spend a lot of time talking about their beliefs and trying to convert others. Isn’t that like the same thing?
If anyone has read Gilgamesh and about Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, and other religions that were in place prior to the advent of Christianity, they would understand why Atheist scoff at those who believe such tripe as the Bible. I would like you to consider that the death of Jesus was a suicide because he made no attempts to flee and, instead, set himself up to be killed. Isn’t that a sin? And I do find it hard believing that having an innocent person die a horrible, sadistic death in order to save the souls of sinners is a credible and reasonable way of handling sinners.
[quote]We should ged rid of the notion that religion is in any way more “sacred” than anything else. [/quote]
I couldn’t agree with you more.
Carlotta, there is far more evidence that Santa Claus is real since he has been observed by many people, people actually have talked to him, there are video proof, even audio proof.
There is a lot of evidence that Dark Vader exists, since we have many many books created by many different writers that all point to this one guy Dark Vader.
There is also a god called Zeus that lives on a Mountain. Here too there are many references to this.
We don’t deny god or jezus, we just experience god and jezus as realistisc as Dark Vader, Zeus and Santa Clause.
For us it is very funny to see people actually pray to god, it is as funny as if you would see someone pray to Darth Vader and have 2 or 3 people in Jedi ornments to come at your door and want to talk about the Force and the deliverance of the dark side pointing to a book called “a new hope”.
yes, Easter candy also sent by Pope to earthquake victims. my thoughts are like yours, a sarcastic, that’s awesome!
http://osirisjournal2.wordpress.com
Tool.
Happy Easter!
I am at loose ends today because I am taking care of my sick cat so I can’t drive up to join my family. My family always gets together for dinner on Easter and we enjoy it. When my generation were kids we all got visits from the Easter Bunny on Easter morning, and now it’s my nephews and nieces who get those visits. Easter is a time for flowers and fresh air and winter finally turning into spring. When I was a kid it also meant dressing up in our best, but that’s fallen by the wayside and we are all slobs now.
Since I feel so nostalgic, I’ll say something nice about my childhood religion, Roman Catholicism. I like that it takes sin seriously. It doesn’t say: good people don’t sin, so if you sin you are a bad person and we should shrink away from you in horror and throw you out of society. Instead it says that we all sin, we are all born hopelessly corrupted by the Orginal Sin and so none of us will ever be good. In your heart, you know this is true. In your heart, you know that you have messed up and done evil.
Christ died to wash away our sins because you can’t just pretend a sin didn’t happen. A sin is an injury. If someone’s arm is cut off you can’t say, well, that was just a mistake, so we’ll just pretend it didn’t happen and that the arm is still there. Once an injury happens, then the consequences have to be dealt with.
So the big lesson is that we all have to watch each others backs. The people you trust and love are going to do bad things, they’re going to get problems that are entirely their own fault, and you have to be understanding and help them pick up the pieces. And they should help you in turn. Because although we should all strive for perfection we’re ALL going to mess up at times; it’s part of being human.
I always liked those ideas. I like reading Western philosophers who understand that forgiveness and redemption are problems that need to be taken seriously. I appreciate Nietzche’s thought that we should focus on being strong, since if you spend all your time thinking about how weak you and making weakness the centerpiece of your religion then you won’t ever try to not be weak, but, nonetheless, I think there is something important int he idea that we are all sinners. I bet Nietzche knew that too: his ideas are in opposition to his religious upbringing and aren’t exactly meant to stand up all by themselves.
People seem a bit touchy today, so maybe I should be clear about myself: I’m an atheist. So, for example, I don’t go for the Original Sin story where the omnipotent omniscient God creates sin, lays a trap for his humans, then gets all mad when they fall into the trap which he had set and which he omnisciently knew they were going to fall for, and so curses all their descendents forever. Similarly, I reject the Resurrection of Christ story too. What I like is philosophy.
Oh, and by being “understanding” of people doing evil things I don’t mean that I forgive Hitler or child murderers or that I am willing to codependently let people dump on me. Thst is more extreme than I am willing to go. All things in moderation.
Everyone is so caught up with the “when” of Christs death and resurrection, how come know one is talking about the why. Jesus isn’t a religious symbol. He was man and God in the same person, He came to do a job that none of us could accomplish. He conquered hell and death. For everyone making posts. So think of it this way, no matter who you are…. ignorant, poor, rich, black, white, muslim, hindu, jew, man, woman, politician, gay or straight, HE DIED FOR YOUR SIN!! and He knew that there would be ridicule and mockery (like these posts) but He did it any way. Jesus left His prominent place at home to come down here and be a mockery, endure shame and be blasted for you. Then, just when they mockers thought it was over and he was dead and placed in a tomb, He got up!! And He’s still up and the tomb is still empty. So give the candy jokes a rest, come down off your chocolate high and use your heart to figure out the real truth about why Easter, why Passover and why we still have freedom to write this ridiculous stuff in this country, it’s because He gave us freedom, freedom from sin, freedom from oppressive government, freedom to live.
Who cares why bunnies and chocolate are celebrated on Easter, it’s there for the kids. Christ is the reason for the season. New life, life in Him, and while we were all still sinners, He died for us. hmmm, now that’s love!!
I guess you wanted lots of comments to your blog, so the best you could do is mock God to get them. You are truly a fool and you expose so many to their own foolishness every time you stoke their stupidity. And I can’t help but state that you didn’t try Christianity and it didn’t work, Christianity tried you and you didn’t work. And you’re still not working.
Great discussions, but missing the point slightly, because it’s not about bunnies, eggs, which day or whatever! Now the chocolate has been eaten and eggs have melted back into storage for another year; but guess what we’re left with: Jesus. This is it, Easter is over for another year, whatever pagan festival it may allude to, but Jesus remains.
He is alive! Miracle? Can we believe this today? In fact if He hadn’t risen from the dead, then we probably would not be having this discussion. He would be just another prophet, holy man, good guy, doing good things. But He got up again, that changed things.
This guy was different because He came alive again. OOps! This is awkward! What’s going on here?
Answer: if he hadn’t died for us then there would be no happy ever after! Now there is.
So it’s not really about eggs and things, these distract us. It’s about the resurrection, that’s all that matters for us all.
Happy Easter Blessings.
Actually the only reason I’m taking my time writing is to say: I thought the title of this short expose is offensive.
Nobody is asking you or anyone else here if you want to celebrate Easter; moreover, nobody is forcing anything down anyone’s throats.
If I had the type of mentality that was given to being disdainful to anyones ideologies or sacred beliefs I still wouldn’t waste my time with this…ALTHOUGH,
“ucbones” made a very fascinating point and in a fashion to be admired and respected…it’s not about eggs and candy but for us, Easter is about life.
jps
(sigh) why bother, nobodies going to see me all the way down here
Harleigh,
I apologize for sending you a response from this location, this site is getting realy hard to navigate.
2 points you make regarding homosexuality and abortion, two discussion landmines in todays news.
First let me state that I am involved with abortion and people considering abortion, I have been for 20 years. I have sat with women that have aborted their children. I have seen them mourn and grieve because of it. A lot of women that have abortions are pressured to have them, either by the counselor working with them or a parent that doesn’t want to raise the child or a boyfriend that they are afraid of losing, etc. Some women (very few though) are adamant about this choice to abort. For instance, out of all of the women I have met (and that would be hundreds) I have met 1/2 dozen that were “militant” about it. Abortion is a sad choice, would I condemn a women for making this choice? No.
I think that the pain that follows is enough for them to bear. Does God condemn them? I don’t believe so. At least not in the here and now.
And that is because (most I say) don’t realize they are killing a human life. The media, politicians and radical murder groups like planned parenthood have done their job of convincing the masses that it’s a blob of tissue. And that choice is God, except when you consider the child (some female) have no choice but to die.
I will also go as far to share that my wife and I are foster parents, we see the conflicts first hand with broken families, we also have been through adoptive situations with parents that chose life and gave their child a better option than to eliminate them.
Homosexuality:
I am not opposed to homosexuals having a fair shot at any level in society (except of course the pulpit), I have good friends that are gay, several family members that are gay and bi. I don’t condemn them for their lifestyle. I treat them like family. I am not gay, and I believe that Bible is crystal clear in the areas of sexual immorality. That includes, pornography, adultery, any type of fornication, or sexual perversity. Is it my job to condemn someone who practices this? no. Can i have good friends that are gay as a believer? Yes. Most Christians that have gained the attention in the media use their pulpit to bash gays, I believe they are afraid and most of them cowards, and that they will answer for that position one day. All I can say is, if you believe the bible is true than live by it. Does God condemn the homosexual? It doesn’t appear so at least not in the here and now.
I have acquired these opinions and views through study, real life personal experience, and confirmation from God’s word.
OK – This is to all the naysayers: btw…I am a former naysayer, non-conformist, humanist, new age naturalist, turned Christ-follower….I can say this because I’ve been there, where you are right now…
THE NAYSAYER CHALLENGE:
Search for the answer to this question: Who is Jesus?
use whatever means you need to answer the question,
BIBLE (John is a good place to start),
BOOKS – Evidence demands a verdict (http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Demands-Questions-Challenging-Christians/dp/0785243631), Case for Christ (http://www.amazon.com/Case-Christ-Journalists-Personal-Investigation/dp/0310209307)….
Or TALK to someone you trust who is a Christ follower….
and after you have examined “all” of the evidence and made your final conclusion, come back to me and tell me that I am insane and should be committed to a mental institution.
Or tell me that you finally discovered the truth …then we can be on the same page and have an honest conversation about Faith, Christ and His death and resurrection…
What is sweeter than chocolate bunnies? God’s love is sweeter and lasts longer (a lot longer)….enjoy your new journey!
btw, the BIBLE is still the best source, doesn’t take a scholar to understand the Gospels…that’s why it was written in terms that children can understand…
Good night my unbelieving friends!!
Here’s something awesome to consider or reject.
As ‘dougwadedesign’ said, quoting from John 1 that Jesus was the word. I agree it is very difficult to understand, but it is simple!
Jesus existed before the universe was created. He was there at the beginning of time and will always exist. He is the source of everything. He is in everything and everything is held together by Him. If the earth was a few degrees off axis; if gravity was slightly different; if the sun was further away; or the oceans too deep, then we would all cease to exist. Scientists consider that in all the universe there is nothing like earth, it is unique.
Jesus keeps all things stable; the seasons; the air; nature is all attributed to Him, everything is in His hands; we are in His hands. God reveals all this to everyone, that is His will. (Romans 1). It is called general revelation.
Now mediate on this: that Jesus, this immense being, who created everything, the universe, the earth, and US, should choose to come to earth in human form and be savagely tortured ( read academic accounts of crucifixion) for the sole purpose of rescuing us from our sins. Can you comprehend the creator of everything becoming human and dying for you. Isn’t that awesome, isn’t that incomprehensible? Reflect on this, and perhaps in this he deserves your respect.
There are only two cases here: one that He was a crazy man, a mad prophet, and two, that He was in fact God, the creator of everything, who chose to save you. He could have destroyed everything ( The Flood), but He chose not too.
Blessings
Jt Crawford:
Sorry for the delay. I will gladly give you a few examples, but let me make one thing clear; I do believe in “God”, or a higher power. I DO NOT buy into organized religion. I have experienced “miracles”, and ethereal enigmas; for that reason I believe there is an afterlife- another dimension, if you will. However, I feel it’s much more complex and beautiful then your average “christian” makes it out to be. With that said here are some examples.
1. Sodom and Gomorrah- Most christians will tell you, and interpret this passage as an “anti-homosexual campaign.” A perfect example to my earlier post when I spoke of people seeing/reading only what they want too. For to long christians have missed the larger picture. The town wasn’t destroyed because of homosexual activities, it was detroyed because it was a town inundated with deviance. Angels were raped, incest was rampant, children were being molested, and orgies were commonplace. Homosexuality was far from mind of the maker when the town was destroyed, I guarantee you. (If the story wasn’t a fable made up to introduce the need for morality.) This brings me to the next example.
2. When reminded of this, most christians will swiftly refer to the passage that says,” Man shall not lie with another man.” I’ll throw you another curve ball. In the same version of the Bible, it also says that it is an “abomination” to wear, or use two different clothes(like wool and cotton) for dressing. It is also an “abomination” to eat specific types of meat, or to have sex with your “wife” during her menstral cycle. It has become widely known, that in those times, many passages such as these were made for hygenic and health purposes.
3. Since we’re on the subject of morality and the laws of the Bible, I have another bone to pick. If it is so imperative that we follow “the word of God” to a tee, and all the laws of Jesus’ time, then why are men not allowed more than one wife as was common then? It’s convieniant that in modern day society we see fit to change what we think should be changed. Bigomy is only illegal because it is morally wrong. Think about it though, who decided that it was morally wrong?, and why? Man and Woman, as we were taught by Adam and Eve, were put on earth ONLY for procreation, according to the Bible. Sex wasn’t meant to be pleasurable or to become a past-time. It was made pleasurable so procreation would be bearable. (Again, according to the argument of christians.)
4. Lastly, for now…. The most hypocritical piece of evidence comes from a well known passage in the Bible. “JUDGE NOT LEST THEE BE JUDGED” It’s comical really, how christians are always pointing a finger. I can’t tell you the number of times, both subtly and crudely, I’ve been told I will go to hell for being this, or doing that. To judge me is just as big a sin as any, for there is no sin greater than another. A sin is a sin-there is no jusifying any variation of any sin you may have commited. No human will ever bask in the shadow of perfection as Jesus did. He died on the cross for our sins, to give us freedom of choice- and yet, choice is not an option in many christians eyes.
Before I sign off, I want to say this: I’m aware I didn’t give exact quotes to the specific passages I spoke of, but I assure you they are there. I’m not going to go pulling out my Bible to give exact quotes for people who don’t want to see the truth anyway. I’m sure most of you have a Bible somewhere- and Google is a lifesaver, you can type in the keywords for whatever it is you are looking for specifically-or go get your Bible and skim it. It’s there. Open your eyes.
Goodnight and much love.
annabella
Doug:
The Bible does and did take scholars, many scholars because your passges in your Bible were originally written in so many different languages. This is why it is impossible to say for sure what exactly was right, and what is not.
Translation is a very difficult trade. Many a scholar have debated the same text and come up with an entirely different reading. Thats a fact, it’s history. Research it for yourself. In fact, there are still many scriptures that have yet to be translated, including “The Lost Sea Scrolls.” The reason for this is because they were written in Aramaic. The oldest language there is. A common misconception is that Jesus spoke Hebrew, he did not. He spoke Aramaic, and that is what “The Lost Sea Scrolls” are written in; they are believed to be one of the only REAL scriptures written by Jesus himself, as the rest were written by his disciples.
More…
According to Rferl, Across much of the non-Arab Muslim world, people are celebrating Norouz, the festival that marks the arrival of spring and the beginning of the new year.
[...]
Norouz traditionally celebrates the awakening of nature, life’s renewal, and the triumph of good and light over the darkness of winter. The new year is marked when the sun leaves the astrological sign of Pisces and enters Aries.
[...]
Among the rituals associated with the Norouz celebration is the bonfire –called Chahar Shanbeh Soori — held on the last Wednesday before the holiday. Thanks are given for the good fortune of making it through another winter. To purge oneself of any remaining “paleness” or evil, families lay down piles of wood and brush, igniting them shortly after sunset, and run alongside the fires, occasionally jumping over the flames.
(http://www.en.baybak.com/from-azerbaijan-to-india-spring-festival-norouz-begins.azr)
Sorry, looking for “african tribes” it’s too general. there are lots of different rituals in the continent. Also, looking for native cultures in new zealand and australia it’s not so easy. Anyway, you should look here for festivities in september, not march. But I think with those examples it’s enough. Isn’t it?
My face is red I’m laughing so hard at these comments… This is ridiculous!
Many people argue with atheists by quoting scripture. Atheists don’t believe the Bible is the word of god. It is totally useless to defend the “truth” of a book using quotes from the book itself. “God is perfect because the Bible says so; the Bible is true because it’s the word of a perfect god” is circular logic. If you want to be convincing, you *must not* have “god exists” as one of the premises supporting the conclusion that “god exists”. That means, among other things, not using the Bible to support your premises.
@ ucbones
ucbones:” …. In reply to Roger’s comments I can reply: have you asked the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you? ”
mark:” are you referring to Jesus Christ being our lord and savior when you say truth. ”
ucbones:”That’s part of it, but the truth is the whole of God’s word ( John 17:17) ”
mark:”Please give me your best understood definition of gods whole word. ”
ucbones:”The Bible ”
So basically we should ask the holy spirit ( a concept that comes from the bible), to reveal the holy spirits whole word which just happens to be contained in the bible. You don’t see a problem with this type of logic because from my way of thinking you could use these same process to prove that the Koran is real, or that the Jewish version of god is real?
“Difficult to answer this one because I do not personally know everyone, but God extends His invitation of salvation to all people. ”
How can you be sure that god extends his invitation to everyone, what do you base this statement on otherwise any follower of any religion can make same statement.
Did god (christian god) extend his invitation to all of those who have never heard of Jesus or Christianity.
What about people who are severely mentally challenged.
Exactly how does god extend his salvation to all people, exactly what do you base this statement on. How can you be sure it is the christian god extending this invitation.
“Perhaps if people have not found God then either it is not yet the time that God has ordained, or they have not approached Him in humility and repentance of their sins. I would say that God knows everyone and promises that whoever seeks God with a sincere heart will find Him. ”
I have a problems with this statement, the bible clearly states this-
” Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mark 11:24
-which appears to me to contradict your statement above. This statement says nothing about approaching god with humility, also was Paul being humble when he god converted him from non belief to belief of the christian god.
“If you became a Christian you must have found
God! Puzzled! ”
If I became a christian exactly what does that mean. What gives you the right to question the fact that I was a christian.For your info I became a christian the same way most people in this country become christian, I grew up in a household with christians. When I tried to learn more about god as I god older I realized that after all of the praying to your loving god who supposedly wants us to find your god was not responding. Why is your god hiding from people trying to find him, why is your god playing coy.
“Yes! But did I claim that God does everything we ask?
“We have to come to the Lord with a repentant heart, not with one that demands He does what we ask and tells us everything on our terms”
Doesn’T this verse from the bible contradict this statement.
” Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mark 11:24 “
Bullshit. You have none.
If you had it, you would have presented it. No, circular reasoning, quoting your chosen mythology, and blather don’t count.
YOU have to prove any smidgen of evidence that he did. The burden of proof is on YOU. There are people who would believe if you had anything believable. But you don’t. Since it’s your choice to believe in this fabricated story, and it’s not true, you can’t. That’s what is driving you nuts.
Wow. Are you all still at this? It’s time to move on. Once these people get this god thing implanted in their brains as young people it is almost impossible to get it out of them. That’s the whole reason they have to get them very early. Hell, they even have SCHOOLS ASSOCIATED WITH RELIGION!?! The ultimate crime against reason.
If we taught all little children that they were created by Green Chairs and then we built Green Chair Cathedrals on every other street corner in American towns and cities and we met in these cathedrals once or twice a week and sang praises to the trinity of maple, oak and green paint these same little chair worshipers would grow into sedentary Green Chair worshipping adults.
Even if they later received a good secular education and came to realize that religion is INHERITED and silly beyond belief they would always be just a bit leery of any Green Chair that they encountered. And Green Chair forbid if they should ever slip up and say GREEN CHAIR DAMN. That miscue would always have them casting sideways glances toward the nearest forest from which Green Chair material originated from virgin seedlings.
I THINK I AM RECEIVING THE GREEN CHAIRS BLESSING EVEN AS I WRITE!?!!!! Maybe it’s a revelation! TIMBERLUJAH! I think I’m on to something! RED CHAIRS ARE EVIL!!!!!!!!!!! Of course. An adversary! Whether one is a Mapleite or and Oakite or a Cherryite it would be obvious to all that there is only one true Chair. Praise Green Chairs!!!!!!
Well, I have to go now. I have definitely received a timber experience. It’s so comforting to know now that when I die I will come back as a sapling in the Hoosier National Forest!
Peace and may you always have good wood…..
No matter what you say. Jesus the Son of God was born and walked this earth for 33 years. He died on the cross for everyone.
Though He could have called legions of angels to come to His rescue, He didn’t because but it was the love He bears for us( all mankind) that kept Him on that cross.
Three days after He was crucified He rose from the dead and is in heaven praying for you and loving you more than you can ever imagine.
2Co 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
So that you suffer self-percecution so that others can live a meaningful life by putting the blame on “satan”?
Doug:
You said the following about homosexuality:
“Homosexuality:
“I am not opposed to homosexuals having a fair shot at any level in society (except of course the pulpit), I have good friends that are gay, several family members that are gay and bi. I don’t condemn them for their lifestyle. I treat them like family.
“I am not gay, and I believe that Bible is crystal clear in the areas of sexual immorality. That includes, pornography, adultery, any type of fornication, or sexual perversity.
“Is it my job to condemn someone who practices this? no. Can i have good friends that are gay as a believer? Yes. Most Christians that have gained the attention in the media use their pulpit to bash gays, I believe they are afraid and most of them cowards, and that they will answer for that position one day.
“All I can say is, if you believe the bible is true than live by it. Does God condemn the homosexual? It doesn’t appear so at least not in the here and now.”
YOU ARE LIKE AN ANTISEMITE WHO SAYS THAT SOME OF HIS BEST FRIENDS ARE JEWS. YOU ARE STILL A BIGOT!
THE BIBLE ITSELF IS A DISGUSTING PIECE OF SHIT!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
@markbey
In Spite of the fall you are claiming that god against homosexuality, gay marriage etc. If this is true then why would god create humans who do not fit the deffinition of male or female.
This is seems to contradict your beliefs that god is against homosexuality, if it doesn’t please explain how it doesn’t.
One observation is:
If homosexuality was the only way, or normal, or right as some will have us believe, than we wouldn’t be having this conversation. It takes one male and one female to have a sexual encounter to reproduce.
also,
because homosexuals cannot reproduce (other than adoption or by some scientific means) and that you cannot produce another human being without the male and female sexual organs. Obvious.
Seeing as the ability to “clone” and other scientific means have only been realized within the last hundred years or so, we still wouldn’t be having this conversation.
So to me, our very existence is proof that there is an error in this line of thinking.
Sorry,
I didn’t catch that, I didn’t mean that homosexuals could produce by adoption, I meant that they could not model a family except through adoption, and this model doesnt work either.
Um, Daniel, how did my comment end up 20 miles from where it was supposed to? Either I’m going blind or it’s a glitch :-/
Thank you Niva! You are just darling! I appreciate you. To answer your question, I have been in college for about 8 years. Five for undergrad and three for grad school (so far). I am seeking a PhD, so I’ll probably be in college for another five years! :( Oh, well, the things we do for passion!
Lol. Thanks. I appreciate you, too. Well I have yet to decide what I’m going to major in, so there’s no telling how long I’ll be in college. Hopefull not 8 years… But who knows. As long as I’m out before I get wrinkles. And I still have time to pay for it before I die.
Doug keep your head up and keep looking for his return. the new tempel will be built soon and the stage is set.
“Doug keep your head up and keep looking for his return. the new tempel will be built soon and the stage is set.”
Oooh, I hope they’re doing how to succeed at business without really trying! I loved that play in High School.
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(Therefore, God exists.)
Cadbury Mini Eggs are about the best damn things in the world.
ALL HAIL THE MINI EGGS! FOLLOW THE EGG!
It works better for Good Friday.
Why don’t they just make chocolate Jesus?
Someone tried that, but it upset the Papists, and we can’t have that.
My apologies.
Yes, Christian Easter is based on Passover, but don’t think that there was ever a clear date on which it was celebrated. The different early sects disagreed often on the matter, or whether it should be celebrated at all.
However the word Easter is from the Anglo-Saxon word Eostre, which is the Moon God, and whose festival was celebrated with symbols like the hare and the egg, to symbolize rebirth. These festivals where conveniently in the passover time, which makes sense because Passover became the Jewish spring festival.
The are similar Babylonian and Egyptian festivals, so spring festivals seem pretty typical, and why not, it’s a great time of year.
The xtians used these festivals, and their imagery, to promote Christ when they began to convert the pagans because it was easier to replicate their traditions. So my point is that Easter as we all learned in sunday school is basically the result of centuries of molding Christ’s convenient time of death into the spring festival, and making the spring festival about Christ instead of just spring, which is what the bunnies are about.
There are 2 problems with this: The first is that celebrating the easter bunny is like celebrating the pagan gods, so it smells of polytheism. The second is that God and Jesus himself explicitly said not to take traditions from others.
So you may say big whoop we’re still celebrating his death/resurrection, but it’s still important to recognize that Easter is a pagan holiday in it’s own right, and that xtians tacked on their own celebrations to it. So if Jesus had never existed, we’d still have a holiday at this time of year.
/ramble
The Catholic League hardly represents the rank-and-file American Catholic population in opinion or attitude.
Sacrelicious!
But, but, but…not even the candy?!
yeah !! – I am very careful to only buy chocolate eggs that wont convert me to any religious sect.
Holidays are wonderful reasons to calibrate. Congratulations for being so nonconformist and not taking advantage of events set up so that we can more easily spend time with our friends and family whom we don’t get to see often. You must be so excited.
Well I never look a gift day off in the mouth. In fact, I think atheists should campaign to get more religious holidays recognized. I mean, if we could get Ramadan officially celebrated we could knock off work for a whole month around Christmas or so.
In fact, if we do it right, we’d wind up not having to work more hours than the Japanese just to keep ourselves in Wal-Mart when we’re off work.
Praying five times a day? Five little vacations! Sweet. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday off every week? Sure.
In fact, properly recognizing merely the Saints of the Catholic calendar would get us oh, about 365 days off per year! Those guys have a lot of saints.
Brilliant!
God: doesn’t exist.
Jesus: wasn’t resurrected.
Easter Bunnies: don’t have jack to do with Jesus
Quoting Bible Verses: is utterly moronic on an atheist blog.
You are aware that quoting scripture at people who are already familiar with said scripture is unlikely to be an effective witnessing strategy, right?
Happy Jesus is dead day!
So let me get this right: this weird undefineable unknowable omnipotent omnipresent omniscient being had a human son (for some unknown reason he could only have one – doesn’t sound very potent to me), sent him off packing to good ‘ol Earth to let everyone know he really really exists (in the Palestine region no less – oy vey what was he thinking?).
Anyway, because he loves us so much he arranges to have this poor son brutally killed, apparently because this will save us. Three days later god obviously changed his mind and zaps his son back to life, lets him walk around for another 40 days, and then says OK thats enough and sucks him back up to heaven (so where is this huge sacriface? – he got him back safe and sound).
Because of all of this we now need to bow down and pray to this father and son, who apparently with some spook or other are all the same thing.
You couldn’t make it up for a childrens story could you? Can you see why this story is one big wtf?
Any wonder skeptics require evidence to substantiate such an incredible (read: so improbable as to be nonsense) story before we will join you in throwing ourselves at the feet of these products of an overactive imagination.
Carlotta– I dare you to back up just ONE of your claims with factual evidence or a coherent arugment. Just ONE!
So you believe that your god sacrificed himself to himself to appease his own rules which he created for us so he wouldn’t have to send us to hell for doing things which he said were bad after he created us to be able to break his standards even though he knew that we would anyway?
Are you sure?
Certainly the Easter Bunny and hiding eggs is taken from pagan traditions. Also the May pole and some other traditions. But Resurrection Sunday is wholly based on Scripture. You refer to “different early sects” and it’s not clear if you mean Jewish sects at the time of the crucification or Christian sects in the early church. In any case, the practice (or not) of some early Christian sects is not to the point. The majority of the Jews of Jesus’ time (including the Sanhedrin) observed Passover and of this there is no doubt. Gauss, who probably was smarter than both of us put together, developed a formula for calculating Easter and it’s still used by the Western churches. The name “Easter” probably did come from the pagan goddess but the event did not. The event turned a group of cowering followers of Jesus into a dynamic force which turned the world upside down.
In any case I’ve decided not to recognize Wednesday, because it’s the day for Woden, a Norse god. I guess I should stay in bed that day, or stay home and surf the net.
Take a look at some non-Christian cultures: China, Japan, India, Arabia, tribal Africa, Aboriginal Australia, Native New Zealand. What holidays do they have? Does this agree with your conclusion? Apparently not.
Whaaaaaaattttt? You mean athiesticts read or have read the bible?? Doesn’t a bible burn up or explode in the hands of immoral, baby-eating, heterosexual marriage destroying athiestics?
Daniel, in the future, please be sure to post only things everyone likes.
The nature of humor is cruelty. People just don’t seem to mind about that until it stabs at something close.
Waaaaaaaaaah!!!!
Agreed.
Sorry I get all mean around Easter…
It’s fun pissing people off every now and then. As long as they don’t crucify you for it.
So true, Elemenope. Way to nail them to the cross.
It’s a God-shaped plot hole. ;)
First, you mean “short-sighted.” Second, you couldn’t be less right. Third, prove the existence of this “god” and “hell” of yours.
Maria, what is it you’ll actually be doing in heaven?
Zombies rise from the dead. Brains…..BRAINS!!! Nom Nom Nom.
And you are very illiterate.
Illiteracy was not a sign of no intelligence before the last few decades, when people in poverty and agricultural lives couldn’t get a lot of standard education. With people in schools now, and with you, it’s lack of intelligence.
Moving along… no reasoning or good argument will be found from you!
You are a poor convincer for your chosen mythology.
Reminds me of Robert Heinlein writing that he couldn’t imagine a god who yearned to clutch every indolent moron to his breast.
maria’s circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works because circular
maria says, “idk bout you but thats what im thankful for, not having to spend eternity in hell, i get to spend it with my savior…”
So maria, could you show us the get-into-heaven pass Jesus sent to you? Is it some sort of certificate that was mailed to you? Did Jesus stick a gold star on your forehead, or is it just that your anus glows in the dark now? I’d really like to know.
Such piercing humor!
Um, praising God for eternity, silly! ;-)
If by “really cool” you mean “a boatload of solipsistic nonsense designed to make Kirk and Ray feel self-satisfied in their pathetic attempts at ‘logic,’” then you’re absolutely right.
Save me Kirk Cameron!
-mike
Scarlett,
If lying once makes me a liar, does using a plunger once make me a qualified plumber?
Does building a Lego set make me an architect?
Does using a toaster make me the next Julia Childs?
No, obviously not.
So you are forced to admit that being good and not so good are worthy of degrees…Way of the Master fails.
WOW!!! Only $99 for 13 episodes – how could you not go fo a deal like that?
But it does strike me as a bit odd; surely religious orginisations don’t usually try to make money out of us do they?
You know what bugs me? Teh xtians have way cooler web pages than us un-enlighted atheists. We sure have a long way ahead of us until we can beat them at that ground.
Wow, this “good person test” is really great. Especially since it still tells you that you’ll go to hell even if you clicked “Innocent” every fcuking time… Now I’m depressed…
same web…
“What should I say to someone who has lost a loved one through cancer?”
Be very careful not to give the impression that God was punishing the person for his sins. Instead, speak about the fact that all around us we can see the evidence of a “fallen creation.” Explain how in the beginning there was no disease, pain, suffering, or death. But when sin entered the world, it brought suffering with it. Then gently turn the conversation away from the person who died to the person who is still living. Ask if he has been thinking about God, and if he has kept the Ten Commandments. Then take the opportunity to go through the spiritual nature of God’s Law. Someone who has lost a loved one often begins to ask soul-searching questions about God, death, and eternity. Many people are so hardhearted that it takes a tragedy to make them receptive to God.
mmm… i won’t let any evangelist close to me on that situation. Just to avoid another death
Do YOU by any chance read before you open your mouth?
Didn’t think so.
More of a christian background than you.
(The site’s creator and several people posting.)
And far more educated, with far better capacity to reason.
…do you know what this blog is about? At all?
Jesus’ death can be treated many ways:
1. The sad, premature end of an interesting life
2. The fulcrum around which the entire universe must turn
3. An excuse to eat lots of candy and contemplate bunnies
“1″ seems reasonable. “2″ seems just a bit out of proportion. “3″ is eminently mock-worthy.
Since even among Christians, “3″ tends to dominate, I hope I don’t have to draw a road map for why this is simultaneously funny and a poignant critique of tradition or tradition’s sake.
What? Too Soon?
Thankfully.
I just wish the media would figure that out and stop going to the League for soundbites. There’s a wing here in NY, and they keep showing up on the news as the spokesmen for the Catholic opposition to the Vermont gay marriage ruling.
Ummmm…NOPE!
Everyday is an excellent opportunity to bash Christianity. It’s a big fairy tale, and should be treated as such.
What I feel sorry about is the fact that so many christians won’t educate themselves. You consider today holy, but in fact, Easter is a pagan holiday based on the arrival of spring. Also, I’m not enlightened (ellucidated) by rejecting mythos, I’m enlightened (ellucidated) by studying science. I hope that you, in your stunted state, will reconsider your anti-intellectualist stance. The world is far more complicated that you imagine. Think about it. And have a good weekend yourself.
That’s a big slice of passive aggressiveness you have with your martyrdom. Go have a good weekend yourself.
Boy, they’re all coming out to play today?
Shouldn’t you be in church or something, not blogging?
Look, jtcrawford, I must remind you at this point that the human race has been on this planet for 100,000 (maybe as many as 200,000) years, whether you believe this or not.
The Bible was written roughly about 2,000 years ago.
Now I ask you: How the hell do you suppose we were able to survive these tens of thousands of years without the services of Moses or Christ???
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
yes, teh bibel is the garlic to christians that the garlic is to drakuleeah. Cuz we atheistical types and we agnostical types are sooooo teh sinnerzzzs. Like, I read teh bibel, and it was just so like… you know? Like whatev. I mean, OMG, whatev.
I myself learned my Christian mythology from the first to the third grades, which I spent in a Missouri Synod Lutheran school.
I myself, while I have not read much of the Bible, have read a lot about it through secondary sources. I have learned about a lot of other things through secondary sources.
Using them saves time. Comparing them mentally with one another gradually helps a person build up a world view.
I have done the best I can to choose secondary sources that make sense and appear reliable since I want my world view to reflect reality as much as possible.
Even so, I can never be sure whether I am completely right or not. Nobody can. Partial ignorance is part of the human condition.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Well, they have the bible on computers now, so you can read it without touching it… darn that internet.. ;)
Oh, get over it.
The FSM is a friend to all Atheists and worthy of praise.
Christianity, because of its popularity, casts a broad shadow. In Western society, it comes under criticism in its influences more only because its influences are more apparent due to that popularity. If it were feasible to “not believe” in peace, many would gladly do so, but as religious people continue to attempt to use government to enshrine their principles above others into the law, the tension is not likely to soon dissipate.
I know, for myself, Christianity would be nothing greater than a curiosity perhaps worthy of study but not great emotion, if its manifestations were not so aggressive and insidious. But as it is, many Christians manage to irritate me into pushing back.
On an entirely different note, as Chesterton once pointed out, if you can’t laugh about your religion, it’s time to get a new religion. He was a Christian, it should be noted.
We don’t heap contempt, disdain and ridicule upon The Flying Spaghetti Monster because if we did then statues of His Mother would weep spaghetti sauce tears and we would all ache in our hearts.
Daniel Florien, apparently after being at least a somewhat militant Christian, realized he was deceived and became a militant atheist, though not really an abusive one. I find him to be admirably modest and polite. He carries his religious and philosophical knowledge very gracefully!
Many people like him have suffered under various kinds of Christian tyranny and feel they have been psychologically raped by the religion, such as gay people like me. You can’t expect these victims of rape to have any great affection for their rapists. That is why I am often much less polite than Daniel.
Nobody is going to heap disdain and ridicule on the flying spaghetti monster because no one takes this monster seriously, the way no one takes the great pumpkin seriously.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Fantastic Points, CD. :)
Atheists who devote so much of their time to the discussion of things they claim not to believe instead come across, to me, as people trying to convince themselves the truly don’t believe.
Even though there are literally millions on earth who believe in him, I don’t devote a single minute of time discussing with those of like mind the non-existence of Santa Claus, for example. But if I DID have a feeling in the back of my mind that Santa just might possibly be real, yet I didn’t want to believe it, I just might create discussions such as this one… to surround myself with other people who weren’t quite sure and to make me feel a little better.
Look, Coram Deo, Christianity has caused a lot of people a hell of a lot of misery through the centuries.
Christians are still politically strong in the United States, and among many people it is a taboo to criticize them either for their superstitious belief system or for the way they make so many people miserable.
They diss me a lot because I am gay. Since they diss me, I feel completely free do diss them back! I find them utterly detestable and wish they would all go fuck themselves!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
I’m going to go out on a limb here, and say yes, the reason I visit this blog so often is that I am trying to convince myself that god doesn’t exist — I’m trying really hard to dispel the illusion. I know rationally that he almost surely doesn’t exist, but I feel I have to beat him away with a stick. I still have very powerful dreams about religion, I still have an impulse to ‘thank’ someone for my existence, and I still find myself slipping into the ‘god of the gaps’ mindset.
However, I know that this isn’t because god is calling me back, or because my experience truly points to the existence of a creator, it’s because of my religious inculcation as youth, or because humans are by default, biologically, superstitious, as some other animals have been demonstrated to be. It’s a malfunction of brain wiring, and it results in a perception that belies reality. Like an optical illusion, by brain tells me something my rational mind has trouble resolving. But whether it’s a reflex reaction from brainwashing, or a biological handicap, it’s an obstacle and I am trying to surmount it.
So yes, I do dedicate a lot of time to writing and reading about something I don’t believe in. Yes, it’s obsessive. Yes, there are arguably better uses of my time. Yes, it’s just rehearsing the arguments. But this is very important to my growth as an individual. I consider this site and my own blog a form of therapy, like AA. Atheists Anonymous.
Constructing a viable identity for myself as an atheist is part of the healing process. It may at times be viciously anti-theist as you say, but there’s a lot at stake so the revolution is going to be a bloody one. Still, I think it’s a necessary step to building confidence in my beliefs, and to find a new purpose for my life.
There, it’s out.
Your point doesn’t seem well made to me. You seem to assume that all US citizens are christians who take advantage of such holidays without considering that there is a significant proportion of our population that could give a sh*t about easter. Or any other christian holiday for that matter.
I love my family and friends.
I love them to a degree that when i feel like meeting up with them.. i make the time to meet up with them.
I don’t need some day that was picked by a church because of some religion to suddenly have the urge to meet up with my family.
To be honest.. especially christmas i find disgusting.
I really don’t need any excuse to stuff myself on any other day and i sure as hell (pun intended) don’t need some fat made up guy.. or some religion i don’t support to tell me that this 1 day i need to think about my family and friends.. and grandma who i normally wouldn’t bother to visit but i should right now because it’s christmas and otherwise i would be a horrid person.
screw that.
You really need to read the About Me section…cause you’ll find it ain’t about me.
Still, you need to get over it…and yourself.
Actually, it’s “unthinking lightweights” who fail to recognize how Christianity “colonized” local holidays and such so as to appeal to the locals. Ever noticed that Easter is mentioned in the book of Acts, long before the church EVER began celebrating Easter in the way it grew to? Ever wondered why that is?
And also, if your imaginary sky friend is so all powerful, then why did it need a blood sacrifice to “appease” it’s wrath? Seems kind of…stupid, don’t'cha think?
For your good use of ridicule, you win a chocolate cross.
“Sorry I get all mean around Easter…”
Apparently, so did the imaginary sky-friend. Good Friday? Not if your name was Jesus!
The Baptist church down the street from me is having an Easter egg hunt tomorrow…as I passed by the church, I wondered, “What the hell does an Easter egg have to do with the supposed resurrection of their lord, savior, and founder?”
God had a snappy new idea — I’ll appease Me by killing Me then those foolish atheists will really, really look like unthinking lightweights.
Yeah, you’re right. One reason why Christmas occurs on December 25th is because the Roman Saturnalia was celebrated at that time in winter.
Celebrating Christ’s birth at this time helped Christians blend in with Roman society.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Easter eggs have nothing to do with resurrection of Jesus, um but I do know that Easter has a large attendence and parents tend to look for fun things for their kids to do. So there really is reason behind the madness. Even in church.
As they say in the Golden Shower Christian Church, it is much better to be pissed ON than to be pissed OFF.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
So what is your schtick, you became an atheist and thought that was an excuse to go around pissing people off for cheap immature laughs? Grow up, pal
A fair point.
Here’s the problem with that: the church down the street from me held their eggling ceremony today. Now, I really don’t see the point.
Chocolate is chocolate..
It’s cheaper when it comes in bars than once a year in stupid eggs :)
Easy for you to say. You have access to continental chocolate, cheap. We poor Americans have to put up with substandard chocolate most of the time.
Never say an unkind word about the Cadbury Mini Eggs!
Easier to eat than a bar, and tasty as tasty things get.
True and quite unfortunate.
Lol. Yes… poor Americans.
Just two words… Swiss Chocolate
Yes, I know, I’m mean :D
Have you guys tried Belgian Chocolate? Its awesome!
This joke shouldn’t be that funny… But you know, it is.
So Jesus Christ walks into a hotel, slaps four nails on the counter and asks “Could you put me up for the night?”
Thank you very much. Try the veal … I’m here all week …
No. I believe his last words were, “Aw, fuck!”
Some U.S. senator once said that if the English language was good enough for Jesus Christ, it was good enough for him.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Yeah! Don’t you be dissing the FSM – may his noodly appendage touch you!
So you’re saying all muslims should convert immediately then?
Yeah, but he wasn’t a real Christian.
Or a pope on a rope soap…
Roger– well if heaven is going to be populated by these people, then let us fun people throw a big party in hell!!!
;)
I love the way your veiled threats do nothing to shake my disbelief in God/s, and if what you mean by ‘some of the stuff I’ve read here’ is LOGIC and RATIONALITY, I’m inclined to agree with you. Such an impossible being would suely explode if forced to confront the illogicality(sp?) and improbability of its own existence. (Hopefully) Showering us with Cadbur/Lindt/Red Tulip dark chocolate bunnies!!
so…so… you are not going to my heaven. It’s stale beer and strippers with STD’s for you!
LRA, I don’t waste my time trying to bring evidence to people who have the mindset of rejecting God at any cost. When and if any of you will see the need for God, only then will you find real truth.
You already reject the most obvious evidence – creation of man, heavens and the earth! So if you reject the obvious, what’s going to make me think you’ll accept anything else?
But just in case any of you are open to finding the truth about the bible, Jesus Christ and the Father, feel free to check out this site:
http://www.tektonics.org/
I’m sure teleprompter.
Christ’s resurrection is the stamp to my faith. There is just too much evidence that He’s alive to make me doubt otherwise.
You all prove that Christ didn’t raise from the dead, then my faith truly has been in vain and I’d stop believing in a heartbeat!
The existence of matter in *no* way necessitates the existence of a god. But let’s say for the sake argument that it did. Can you now tell me how the existence of matter necessitates your *specific brand* of god?
Carlotta reccommends tektonics.org. Here is an especially stoopid article from that website comparing Japanese culture to Christianity:
http://www.tektonics.org/af/culturegram.html
Here is a tantalizing clip of the stoopidity:
“On a TheologyWeb discussion thread I wanted to illustrate to a debate partner how honor was valued in the ancient Biblical world. Knowing that honor was likewise valued in modern Japanese culture the same way (in contrast to how it is viewed in modern American culture) I searched for and found an invaluable article apparently by one Phil VanAuken at Baylor University. For proper credit the article in full was found here, but that is now a dead link. An item here in PDF format appears to be the same thing.
In looking over VanAuken’s work I realized that some of the explanations he gave of Japanese custom and culture match very closely the sort we have given here in explaining Biblical passages. ”
And also this *enlightening* tid bit:
“If all the Japanese in Japan were lined up and asked to describe Americans and other Westerners in one word, the majority would probably come up with “selfish.” The reason for this is simple enough. The Japanese were conditioned for centuries to look upon independent, individualistic behavior—the hallmark of Americans and many other Westerners—as selfish, confrontational and disruptive. Outsiders are perceived as barbarians because they don’t conform to cultural mandates and because no loyalty is owed to them. Independence is a social stigma; interdependence brings identity, acceptance, security, and a sense of purpose. Bingo. Think of how many times we have seen Skeptics violate this one with their selfish demands that the Biblical text conform to THEIR wishes. Think how “selfish, confrontational and disruptive” applies to certain “fundamentalist atheists” we know.”
That’s because you know you can’t.
Quoting from your chosen mythology to people who don’t share it is stupid.
Carlotta’s “Reasoning!”
“Allah didn’t do that.
Buddha didn’t do that.
No one else did that.”
Well, Dionysus did that. And so did Persephone. And so did Osiris…
http://www.livescience.com/history/090409-bad-resurrection-myths.html
You moron, don’t you know that Muslims worship the same frikkin’ “God” and that “Allah” is the Arabic word for “God”?? Geez. And you can blather on and on and, apparently, ON about sin and what not, but you never explain why an allegedly omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent “god” NEEDED to incarnate itself into the form of a human, get it’s ass royally kicked, just so it could get up out of a tomb and then, all of a sudden, this “god” now likes all of humanity–just so long as all of humankind (with its diverse religions which all claim forms of divine revelation) says that this particular, local religious myth is completely true.
Punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty isn’t justice.
A man was convicted of murder. The laws of the state demanded a life sentence, without the possibility of parole. But the judge was merciful, and he knew that the man had repented of his crime. So the judge ordered himself to be put behind bars for life, and for the man to be set free. The judge was therefore laughed out of court, stripped of his law license, and thrown into a mental hospital, for he had finally snapped.
@Coram Deo: You are one profoundly deluded dude.
Not only that you are almost astonishingly arrogant in the way you proclaim your sect is absolutely correct and all others are sinful.
Nothing but regurgitated fundie nonsense – learn to think for yourself some day.
Look, Coram Nihilo, this religious boilerplate of yours…
“Biblical Christianity is the one pure and true religion which is based not upon what men do for their “god”, or for other men, or for themselves, but rather is based upon what God has done for men. God Almighty miraculously took on human flesh and came into the world in the person of Jesus Christ, the second Adam, to live the perfect life that God demands of all people everywhere. In doing this Christ fulfilled all the obligations of God as revealed in the Holy Bible, thus being fully and totally righteous in and of Himself, something no other human being could ever have done.”
…is nothing more than mythology. It is no more valid than the mythological belief systems of other religions, which you no doubt would reject as false. But really, there is no way of identifying “true” religious belief systems from “false” ones, so all of them come down to being nothing more than incoherent and at times utterly mad ravings.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
I’m not sure about Allah, as I have not taken the time to sincerely research this religion.
However, I can say that you are quite incorrect in your following statement:
“Buddha didn’t do that. No one else did that.”
Buddha, Krishna, and Lao-tzu were all written to be of miraculous births under extraordinary conditions.
Buddha DID do that because his birth was considered from the God Brahma. Brahma, in the Indian religions represents the one omnipotent and omniscient being. Siddhartha’s (Buddha) mother had a dream of a white elephant entering her womb holding a lotus flower. In her culture, this white elephant and lotus represented gifts from heaven being pure, powerful and knowledgeable.
Krishna was also born under extraordinary circumstances. His parents, Queen Devaki and King Vasudev had been imprisoned by his mother’s brother, King Kansa. Kansa was an evil man who had usurped the crown and imprisoned his family. A voice had told him that Devaki’s eight child would be a boy child who would destroy him. So, Kansa had killed each of Devaki’s children as they had been born. But at the birth of the eighth child, Lord Vishnu appeared in the prison, summoned a messenger to take the child Krishna to Gokul and to bring back a girl child who had been born with the spirit of Vishnu. The messenger took the baby Krishna and faced obstacles that are very similar to Christian ones…water parting and sleeping enemies.
Lao-Tzu was conceived after his mother gazed upon a falling star. He resided within his mother’s womb for the next sixty-two years and was supposedly born an old man, already wise and learned.
Obviously I know a bit more about Hinduism as this is what I research the most, however, each religion seems to have a commonality with Christianity and most of these were from writings pre-Christ. The Bhagavad Gita was written between the 5th and the 2nd century BC.
So, here are my points. One, you say that the Christian God is the “One True and Living God of the Holy Bible”. But my question would be, how can this be so if there had been no mention of him previous to the Jewish faith and birth of Christ? Judaism itself is still a young religion when taken into consideration of the other entire world religions? Is it possible that all the worlds’ religions are only speaking their version of God and Belief as they understand it even if it is from the same God? If I showed you the color yellow, you would call it yellow and someone in another country may call it mustard. Heck, I might even call it an egg yolk.
Another point would be, for centuries man has taken what he knows and learns and hands it down to the next generation. How certain are you that the stories of Christ are any more real than any of the other stories told? Because you believe the Bible? Because the Bible is the word of God? Other religions claim this also and their texts are much older. Why are they not right? Is it because you have faith? Do other religions or beliefs not have their right to faith?
If I am to believe that God parted the Red see, why am I not to believe that waters were parted for Lord Krishna as he was spirited away to safety?
I am not trying to say that one religion is more right than the other. What I am trying to say is that everyone has his or her own path to redemption (or lack thereof). If someone chooses to follow Brahma over Buddha and Buddha over Allah or Allah over Jehovah or Jehovah over God or God over Brahma….then who are you so say it is wrong? Who are you to say, with absolute and positive proof, that the Christian God is the only God? As far as I know, Christianity has no more proof than any other religion can provide.
So I have this wonderful and miraculous idea…how about instead of talking as if YOUR God is the only God and MY God doesn’t matter/exist, why don’t you respect my belief as I respect yours and we all be free to go on to the next life or heaven/nirvana (or not at all if you believe that death is the end)?
And also, please don’t come back preaching to me that my soul can only be saved through the salvation of our Lord Jesus Christ. I love Jesus, I really do. I respect him and believe his teachings are beautiful. And I believe that he might possibly have been an incarnation of God on earth. Do I believe that he was the only incarnation? Nope. What I do believe is that God, in whatever form he/she takes, wants us all to find our way to him. I believe that it is man’s own prejudice that has imposed what are the right way and the wrong way to God.
And once again, I’m REALLY glad that this post was started. I like the fact that we can poke fun at and point out the inconsistency’s of so called devout Christians. I’m fairly certain that Jesus did not rise from the grave in order that children the world over would hunt for eggs and eat chocolate. If you are going to be devout, why practice these things? Why not just go to church and teach your children why that day is special, rather than luring them with gimmicks, smoke and mirrors?
Also…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection
yeah but those people never actually existed! I mean- look at those funny names!
Thank you for a thought out and non-condescending post.
Believers and skeptics also have much more in common than things they disagree on.
Oxytocin is love.
I am so sad on resurrection day. I didn’t know that when I love my wife it was not me but God. I need help.
So is P.F. Chang’s Great Wall of Chocolate cake with a pint of vanilla ice cream from Marble Slab Creamery, but you don’t see me worshipping it. At least with the cake, it’s something that I can see, smell and taste. Repeatedly.
Lra:
Can you now tell me how the existence of matter necessitates your *specific brand* of god?
In my mind, there is such intrinsic design of the *matter* that you speak of, that it necessitates an intelligent designer.
The things that exist are not mere *blobs* of mindless creation, but as we can see, things that are quite operable.
It is just mind boggling for anyone to deny God when there is so much that points to His existence. I understand why the bible is so harsh on atheists:
With their ever-ending need to trash God and depend upon their own minds (pride):
Yes, those scriptures really come to light here on this blog.
You didn’t answer the question. I said that, for argument’s sake, let’s say there is a god as evidenced by the presence of matter. How is this god the christian god?
Lra:
You didn’t answer the question. I said that, for argument’s sake, let’s say there is a god as evidenced by the presence of matter. How is this god the christian god?
There is only one God, and the God who created the heavens and the earth IS the Christian God.
In other words, if someone was someplace where there’s no bible and no one to tell them about Jesus, then exercising faith in this “creator” would be the same as a Christian believing in God through Jesus Christ. This person would be considered “saved” (from hell).
So according to scripture, man is without excuse because creation attest to God’s invisible qualities! The faith used to believe in creation is equal to the *Christian God.*
Carlotta-
Then let’s stop teaching christianity immediately! This way, everyone can go to heaven!!!
AMEN (sorry I meant I AGREE)!!!
Well, here’s my reason for discussing it:
I live in Texas, where excellence in science standards is under attack by the religious right (specifically by the Discovery Institute). As I am a scientist and a certified teacher in this state, I have a vested interest in this. I am also a former christian. I hope to share scientific knowledge with people of faith so as to show them how absurd their claims often are. I am hoping that the more fundamentalist believers will actually educate themselves so that they will stop attacking science.
If you take the time and effort to hold respectful dialogue with many skeptics, you will find that this is not the case in general.
George Bush didn’t pray to Santa before unleashing shock and awe. Santa inspired no one to fly planes into buildings. Etc., etc., etc. Many of us on this site are former Christians who honestly believe that fundamentalist, authoritarian or reason resisting organizations and people are or can too easily become dangerous.
Also, on a personal level, my life is much better since I gave up belief in the silly, antiquated mythologies and many of the posters here share similar connecting backgrounds.
“Then why continue to discuss such things?”
Don’t you want to feel a little better as you say below?
“I just might create discussions such as this one… to surround myself with other people who weren’t quite sure and to make me feel a little better.”
Atheists would not have a blog against this unless they feel the need to stop this religious nuts madness that is trying to convert us all.
There is nothing wrong if you believe in a god and I do not, as long as you do not try to convert us.
Look at the US in Iraq! This is a crusade against Islam!
It is all about Christians fighting against the Islam, but the media has been manipulated in such a way and the word terrorism has been introduced to hide the fact that Christians started an ilegal war agains other people that are none-Christians. Yes Bush was a creationist!
The other thing is that these creationists are attacking science in the US and are tring to do this all over the world too. Throwing any progress to the dark ages.
Look at what the Taliban did a few years ago, distroying all evidence about things that are against god.
The creationists are doing the same thing, slowly erroding any science, forcing their ideas on young people, starting to brainwash, at this is why atheists starts these blogs to fight back extremism that are creeping into Christian believes.
These blos is no fight agains god or denial against god but a trial to stop religious extermism before it is too late!
If the world will end, then it is probably a religious nut with his finger on the nuclear power button believing that pushing is needed because he hear this voice from god telling him to push it.
Blockquote>@Donny Pauling
Atheists who devote so much of their time to the discussion of things they claim not to believe instead come across, to me, as people trying to convince themselves the truly don’t believe.
Bullshit.
They discuss things and religious nuts that are tragically too real.
Like christians trying to control people who don’t share the christian delusions and beliefs. They use laws to make other people’s choices illegal, protests, verbal attacks (the ones who pose with their offspring can be some of the nastiest for some reason.)
christians who come on to an atheist site posting all their beliefs and trying to change others’ minds come across to me as protesting too much, desperately trying to convince themselves that their chosen beliefs and mythology are real.
Christians who devote so much time to the discussion of things they claim to believe instead come across, to me, as people trying to convince themselves they truly do believe. That is why Christians are often told to surround themselves with other Christians – so that they may not be lead astray by those who do not believe.
Did you ever consider that there are millions who believe in Santa Claus but he does not exist and that could also be extended to the existence of God, that there are millions who believe in the existence of God and that He may also not exist.
This is a blog that belongs to an Atheist. Just like Christians who get together and talk about Jesus and all that other delusional garbage, we Atheist like to get together and talk about things. If you condemn on, you also condemn the other.
Why “shouldn’t be” this joke funny. We should ged rid of the notion that religion is in any way more “sacred” than anything else. We can, shall, and will, ridicule the heck out of any character in the bible, along with incompetent politicians, embarrassing celebs, and all the other real or fictitious characters we happen to share our lifetime with.
@godhatesprotesters: ROFLMAO. That was hilarious!
Reading you guys’ and gals’ comments: Priceless!!!1oneoneeleven1
Woah, you guys certainly go ballistic. I’ve not been around here long enough, but does that happen on every xtian holiday? If that is, I so can’t wait for pentecost and x-mas…
LRA,
Science and Christianity do not conflict. I suggest reading What’s So Great About Christianity? by Stanford University’s Dinesh D’Souza. I’d also recommend reading this essay (which happens to be written by a Christian):
http://theistic-evolution.com/theisticevolution.html
In D’Souza’s book he gives scientific evidence for why God exists… and MUST exist. Only the ignorant think it’s God VS Science. Reality is God AND Science. In fact, for a Creator to exist, the laws of the Universe must have been put in place by that creator, therefore science is an endeavor into better understanding of how God put things into place.
Then why continue to discuss such things? Once I realized Santa did not exist, I never once entered discussion groups with others who had likewise given up a belief in Santa.
Lots of people pray. Lots of people believe in God. Few people fly planes into buildings. When the vast majority of those who believe in God begin killing in His name, then we’ll know the problem lies in a belief in God. Until that time, those of us who think such things through will realize that some people kill because they want to kill. They’ll use whatever excuse they find convenient to do so. Pol Pot didn’t need God to justify his actions. Stalin. Mao. Hitler. None of these men needed God to be bad people. Some people are just… bad, and again, use whatever excuse they deem necessary to explain their actions.
If 80% of the adult population believed in Santa, based their lives on it, and told people who didn’t believe in Santa that they were going to hell — well, I gather you’d speak out about it, too. Or if not you, somebody should!
Daniel, since for some reason I’m not able to hit “reply” to your comment, I’ll instead hit the reply button to my own and address your comment.
First of all, millions still believe in Santa. ;)
Secondly, 80% of the adult, thinking, mostly educated population believes in God because God does indeed exist. There is scientific evidence for this, and if you’d like find out about it begin with reading the aforementioned book recommendation (D’Souza) and go from there. I hardly think you’re honestly interested in such evidence, however. It’s much easier to simply deny and form discussions with others who similarly want to deny the truth… for whatever reasons you may have. For me, I denied God’s existence because I was repulsed by the hypocrisy I’d witnessed from those claiming to follow Him. After 9 years of denial, I could finally realized my problem was not with God but with those claiming to represent Him. Once that was straightened out I could no longer deny overwhelming evidence of His existence.
Do you ever discuss your beliefs with like minded Christians? Everyone likes community.
And I didn’t suggest that only believers in gods commit atrocities.
Donny, do you ever like to discuss things with like-minded Christians? Everyone needs community. And like-minded people talk about things they have in common.
I didn’t suggest that only believers commit atrocities.
Question-I-Thority,
It makes perfect sense to discuss something one believes to be true with like minded people. It doesn’t make sense, at least not to me, to sit around discussing things that one doesn’t even believe exists.
To each his (or her) own, I guess…
After proclaiming He didn’t exist, I was relieved to discover God does indeed exist after all. We humans sometimes are so repulsed by people that we try to do or believe the exact opposite of what those who repulse us do or believe. If that is the case for you, I hope you come to realize that you’re relationship to/with God does not have a single thing to do with any person in your life that you’ve grown to despise. You and God are you and God. Period.
When I took off the blinders of hatred towards hypocrites, I started looking at evidence I’d never before considered. Before that I’d always had an attitude that went something like, “if ‘those people’ believe in God, I want no part of it!” After reading as much material as I could get my hands on, both from prominent atheists and numerous sources of religious thought, I found overwhelming evidence FOR God. Some might not label Him “God”, but a Creator is not something I can discount.
Anyway… I’m rambling. Time to go feed my Mastiffs.
The bible was written by illiterate arabs back when they thought the earth was flat. Any 12 year old today knows incredibly more about the universe than the wisest man of biblical times.
Religion could not possibly be started today. Can you imagine a woman walking into any major hospital anywhere in the world today and explaining that she was a pregnant virgin and that she was carrying the child of a man or spirit in the sky.
“Code 69. Get someone down here from Psyche, STAT!”
“Once I realized Santa did not exist, I never once entered discussion groups with others who had likewise given up a belief in Santa”
I did. Well, i mean, once I realized Santa did not exist I had to tell to my classmates, even if my parents asked me not to tell them. That’s the way most of the children knew that santa is not real. And some of those little kids cried when the ilusion was lost.
Should I go on with the analogy?
“Secondly, 80% of the adult, thinking, mostly educated population believes in God because God does indeed exist. ”
Evidence please.
Stupid christians, for one.
Stupid christians who try to force their beliefs on others and force how others live, for another.
Unfortunately they’re more real than Santa.
More evil, too. (Santa doesn’t force anything on people or cause the Dark Ages.)
Oooh, I smell a “no-true-christian”. Even if it was another religious nut in that case.
But didn’t they do so anyway?
Christian beliefs work so *well* for that!
The great divide.
Well, I read the article and I found many things in it that I have no problem with. Except the part about miracles.
Why would God perform miracles when (as this guy claims) his creation was done in accordance with the laws of physics, biology, etc.? Why not just poof the world into existence as a gigantic miracle?
Further, if Genesis can be interpreted as metaphorical, then why not the central tenet of your faith– the death and resurrection of Jesus?
Perhaps you could submit a book review of D’Souza’s book to Daniel. I don’t remember to what extent this blog has discussed D’Sousa in the past but over at Pharyngula there are many threads on his writings and videos.
“All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.” Albert Einstein.
Mais vraiment, comme Laplace, nous n’avons pas besoin de l’hypothèse que Dieu existe pour expliquer l’univers. L’existence ou l’absence de l’existence de Dieu est, tout simplement, superflu pour expliquer scientifiquement la nature de l’univers.
But really, like Laplace, we have no need for the hypothesis that God exists to explain the universe. The existence or absence of existence of God is, quite simply, superfluous for scientifically explaining the nature of the universe.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
And here is this message in Interlingua:
Ma vermente, como Laplace, nos non ha besonio del hypothese que Deo existe pro explicar le universo. Le existentia o absentia de existentia de Deo, tout simplement, es superflue pro explicar scientificamente le natura del universo.
Recommending a book that shows that science supports Christianity that is written by a Roman Catholic is a little bit stupid, don’t you think? That is like the idiot in Kansas who has the dinosaurs tramping around with man, in the same period of time when science does not support that as having happened. It is well known that religion often contorts things so as to make science appear as if it is supporting religion. The fact of the matter is that science does not support God having created the earth, it does not support the flood, nor many of the other things that religion says happened. Only a book by a Christian will make it appear that science supports it. That is because the writer is biased and will write from a Christian perspective. You want to believe such tripe, be my guest. I read books by Christians as well as other people and there is no way that science supports religion.
Hitler was not a Christian. In his book he wrote that he professed such things to sway the masses.
I’ve met Muslims who enjoyed a good Muhammad joke.
The ones with the humordectomy are the ones that somehow end up controlling countries and talk on the Evening News. They should look to that, lest the world be convinced that Islam is where humor goes to die.
What a witty reply, Tabbie. I’m speechless… totally unarmed. You win. Congratulations.
;)
It’s only childish if you don’t bother to read deeper, because you’re caught up in the normative impulse to “be offended”. If you like, this is a criticism of the disjoint in most people’s minds between this being a holiday of candy and bunnies and a holiday predicated on the story of a brutal and gruesome murder. People tend to love the first and ignore the second, and the *joke* is that if you actually combine them, you come up with a hideous sort of dissonance. Humor is about dissonance, y’know. It’s cheap and easy to dismiss something as childish so the point underlying doesn’t have to be faced.
Jesus loved to point out things in uncomfortable ways. One of his consistent points was that people get wrapped up in the clothes of sanctimony and piety without actually thinking about what holiness or piety is. He hung out with a bad crowd, made fun of the edifice of religion in his day.
People dislike atheists because they’re told to, or because they’ve had a bad experience with one and then generalize inappropriately, much as theists are disliked primarily because of atheists’ particular experiences with them.
As a fellow Rhode Islander, I say nobody should underestimate us on account of our size. We can take on Gods Incarnate, and of course the British. Don’ mess.
The bible was written by illiterate arabs back when they thought the earth was flat. Any 12 year old today knows incredibly more about the universe than the wisest man of biblical times.
Religion could not possibly be started today. Can you imagine a woman walking into any major hospital anywhere in the world today and explaining that she was a pregnant virgin and that she was carrying the child of a man or spirit in the sky.
“Code 69. Get someone down here from Psyche, STAT!”
How is pointing out that candy eggs have little to do with the murder and resurrection of Jesus “belittling beliefs”? The joke is about juxtaposing two very different meanings for the holiday and showing that they don’t mix easily.
I find that Christians often get whiny when Atheists point out things that are in conflict within their beliefs. Much of the celebrations that center around Christmas and Easter are taken from the pagan religions. Even the Catholic saints is an offshoot of pagan religions. If you cannot look at your religion and recognize the ridiculousness of mixing pagan religion celebrations with Christianity or other religion without getting all upset and whiny about it, lashing out at those pointing out the obvious, then you have a problem.
In the end, you behavior has become representative of most Christians that I know who cannot defend their practice but instead have to insult the Atheist. Religion needs to lose the sacredness that has surrounded it to protect it from criticism. Only then will religious people realize that what they have been following really is irrational.
I was in a conversation with a friend who is a Christian who believes that one must be Christian in order to become enlightened. True enlightenment occurs when you put aside the irrational, only accept that which is rational. With that in mind, Christians will never become enlightened because believing in something that cannot be proven to exist is irrational.
Have a nice pagan holiday celebration Marsha.
I’m reminded of Good Morning Viet Nam where the radio station lieutenant went about defining appropriate (h)umor.
I’m sorry that joking about ideas you hold offends you. I’m sorry that you can’t step back or give yourself a little distance from your belief system and see that chocolate bunnies, eggs and crosses is a nonsensical way to celebrate Jesus and is quite funny. I’m sorry that you are probably acting out of an authoritarian instinct.
Whenever a christian tells me I “will fry”, I break out in a fit of laughter. I’m not sure which I find funnier, the statement or that they believe it.
Either way. HAhahaha
Basically, marsha’s comment was a bunch of “WAAAAAH” with a side of “Nyah!”
Wow, a sermon. About a “personal encounter” with a non-existent spook and his crazy bloodlust. Never heard THAT before. Why do these godbots act as though atheists have no knowledge of Christianity? In many cases, we know their religion better than they do (as evidenced by the resolute refusal to rely solely on preacherisms and sermonic pablum).
Greg – in what way is atheism a religion?
Think about what religion is before answering the question.
Atheists have only one quality in common – they do not accept the existance of god(s).
Thallus lived and worked in Rome. Christians have often labeled him as a Samaritan although he was not. Any thing that he reported would have been hearsay, not through his eyes only. He was not present at the crucifixion.
It was common back then to believe that solar eclipses and earthquakes marked the death of a king. Oftentimes, the event may have occurred within the year of the king’s death but not necessarily at the time of death. Additionally, it was a full moon at the time that Jesus was said to be crucified. Thus, an eclipse and darkness were unlikely to occur.
Much of what is known about Thallus has been derived from Christian apologetics who invented facts about him in order to make his comments sound credible in accordance to the crucifixion. The majority of his writings have been lost. It is estimated that the Histories or compendium in which he wrote about the darkness was written anywhere between 28 to 92 AD. It is believed that the date 92 AD is most accurate in which case one has to ask why he waited so long. By 92 AD, Christianity had a large enough influence that it would possibly influence the writings of a great many historians, especially if their writings are based upon hearsay.
Please note that Constantine did embrace it “for political reasons” not because he believed in it. He embraced it because he saw it as being powerful and a way to unit the people. Power does not mean that it is true.
Look, gregwirths, the first part of what you say is nothing more than mythological bullshit. It is extremely unlikely, for example that “there was a miraculous darkness covering the face of the earth on Passover 32 A.D.”
It is only through historical accident that Christianity became ascendant in the Mediterranean area by the time Constantine became emperor. Quite probably, he made a cold calculation that to consolidate his political power, he could not BEAT the Christians, so he decided to JOIN them.
By the way, atheism is not a religion. Atheists deny the validity of all religions and insist that they are all based on nothing more than idiotic superstition.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Amen to that!
no matches required for the cake, ouch
I’m stealing that. Brilliant! ^_^
hi ya annabelle~
Yeah, I’m having a riot on this website and feel almost guilty about it. I’m currently posting over there with some new found buds on the Christian Cliche and the Evil God thread, and because of that have almost wasted an entire week of vacation- but it’s been worth it, as being somewhat new to atheism, I’ve had no one to bounce my ideas off of (the pity of having been surrounded by xtians only my whole life).
Oh yeah- and that Vatican thing- oh hun- they know way more than they are telling, and that’s why they are not telling.
So, gotta go, but here’s something I need to disclose, although it is nothing- I’m a fred that’s a girl. Seinfeld moment: “not that it matters” (and have always been a girl…not that it matters).
Ciao~
“any person of intelligence can clearly see the inconsistencies and contradictions amongst the ‘word of God.’”
Please dish a few…list one or two….
I think you hit the nail on the head.
Well we are insulting your imaginary god and jesus, and laughing at the absurdity of the biblical fairytale.
But we are not insulting you, only trying to point out how delusional you fanciful religion is.
see Daniel’s Top Posts on the right side on the home page. Read it all (a chore, but good fun) or scroll on down to the end to join what’s currently going on.
Your concern is noted…and stupid.
If you met a man, who only ever ate apples, and you extolled the virtues of oranges to this man, he may not be convinced that oranges are a better way to go. After all, he knows his apples, and he loves his apples. However, after that conversation, he is aware that oranges exist and that someone else thinks they are great. That knowledge then allows him to consider a future choice about whether he would like to explore oranges, if he wanted to.
If he never had someone tell him about the oranges, and all he ever bought were apples, he would never have that choice to expand his horizons.
—————
Most of the time people hold their ideas tightly; this is what makes them beliefs. They have to be held tightly enough to inform actions in an uncertain world. So, of course most conversations are not going to cause much change in them. Every once in a while, however, someone comes upon something–and it can be from a conversation, or even an offhand remark–that has resonance. It causes a re-examination of the assumptions behind the beliefs, perhaps cause the belief to be held less tightly. In these moments knowing that there are other beliefs that could be held, that are held by others, is knowledge important to working through whether to keep one’s own.
My replies haven’t been so eloquent, lol, yet they did have a point. I tend to be a seeker of peace, and I was reacting in my own small way to some of the utterly senseless bickering I saw taking place here. That being said, I do enjoy a good debate, so I can’t say it’s all bad. Many of the comments were valid. Many were funny. Some were just dumb. Some were simply beating a dead horse with a stick.
I must concur with reformedfred’s assessment of Elemenope’s statement… …it’s perfect!
I feel what it all boils down to is this: some believe, some don’t. Some will. Some won’t. Whatever the purpose of this blog may be, the purpose of this post was primarily humor and to expose the hypocrisy which seems to run rampant in most modern day Easter celebrations — a job well done. If you find this kind of humor funny, then laugh. If you don’t, then go away. Live and let live. Believe and feel what you will. Let others do the same.
I think many spiritual devotees do themselves a huge disservice by trying to cram their own beliefs down everyone else’s throat. Religious freedom must encompass everyone in order for it to encompass any of us individually.
Live. Laugh. Love. Cry. Feel angry. Feel happy. Feel sad. Feel scorn. Feel pride. It’s all good, but we must remember to allow others the same choices we wish to have for ourselves. Free will, freedom of choice and freedom of thought…all these things are priceless.
If you don’t like what I have to say, there are about a billion other blogs you can waste your time on.
Thanks. :)
I think he said what I was trying to say in a much more intelligent and articulate way. ;)
I discovered the Golden Shower Christian Church shortly after running across another church called the Golden West Christian Church.
The Golden Shower Christian Church was founded in San Francisco in 1969 by the Reverend I. M. A. Pischer, who believed that ongoing baptism is essential for spiritual renewal. His first book introducing the doctrine of his new church is “Christian Episstemology”–with two “s’s,” of course.
The sacramental beverage used by the Golden Shower Christian Church is not wine, but beer. People doing baptisms during Golden Shower Christian Church services will sometimes drink a whole six-pack of beer as they perform this sacred sacrament.
Some people in the Golden Shower Christian Church are so enthusiastic about baptism that they attend services once a day to get baptized.
About once a month, the Golden Shower Christian Church has Asshole Wednesday services, where communicants can be baptized by hot-beef injection.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Oh, one other thing: The Golden Shower Christian Church does not observe Easter as a holiday. Instead it observes Pissover.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
… and you, apparently, know less than most …
Why so angry Roger? What is the alternative? Enough of the personal attacks. Take on the issue not the person.
Peace and Good,
Roger why do you always have to act like an ass? Seriously.
Stan,
True that many of us get our first thoughts of religion and religious training from our families and communities. That’s not true for everyone. Christianity did have a beginning.
There are many with high levels of education …maybe higher than your own…who believe in Christ and the death, burial and resurrection. Einstein, a non-practicing Jew, believed the miracles of the universe were too precise to give them to chance. He believed in intelligent design. I have friends that are MDs and PhDs who also believe. So knock of the self righteous higher education bit, it doesn’t wash.
One problem comes when “science” and the scientific method tries to rationalize a history. We don’t do that. It might be a bit like using a golf club as a baseball bat, wrong tool for the job. When we view the legitimacy of the scripture using the historical method it can help to clear a bit of the story. The Bible written by 40 different authors with little connection over 600 years is a pretty compelling argument. Considering the martyrs of the first century alone would be strong evidence of the influence Christ had on the world and those around him.
I don’t mind your disbelief. It’s not for me to make you believe. Just in case…
The Nicene Creed
NOTE: The notes that appear in small type on this page were written by James E. Kiefer, and originally posted to Christia.
The Nicene Creed is the most widely accepted and used brief statements of the Christian Faith. In liturgical churches, it is said every Sunday as part of the Liturgy. It is Common Ground to East Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Lutherans, Calvinists, and many other Christian groups. Many groups that do not have a tradition of using it in their services nevertheless are committed to the doctrines it teaches.
(Someone may ask, “What about the Apostles’ Creed?” Traditionally, in the West, the Apostles’ Creed is used at Baptisms, and the Nicene Creed at the Eucharist [AKA the Mass, the Liturgy, the Lord's Supper, or the Holy Communion.] The East uses only the Nicene Creed.)
I here present the Nicene Creed in two English translations, The first is the traditional one, in use with minor variations since 1549, The second is a modern version, that of The Interdenominational Committee on Liturgical Texts. Notes and comment by [James E. Kiefer] follow.
Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.
And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.
This creed was written by the Church in Alexandria in the 300′s. Alexandria was a center for learning and enlightenment. The Coptic Church traces it’s roots back to Mark the writer of the Gospel. I spent a month traveling Egypt with a Muslim friend no less, tracing religious sites and searching. There is one way, as far as I can tell.
As for your comments on the intelligence of the Arabs and the world in the 1st century. It has been said, by scientist, that the knowledge lost when the Arabs sacked Alexandria in 671AD accounted for a loss of mathematics, history, and science that has not yet been recovered. The oral tradition continues in much of the worlds cultures. There is a high level of importance placed upon sharing these histories accurately and continuously. You may also note that many of the key stories of the Bible are repeated in other ancient writings (The Flood Story).
If we can pause for a moment and listen for God or try to observe his work around us…it’s still there and he still speaks. I have seen the results of his works first hand and so have you.
Peace and Faith
The 10 commandments state: thou shall not kill. But the Israelites rape, plunder, and murder their way across the promised land.
though shall not murder, where’s the inconsistency?
You’d have to not acknowledge any day of the week if you used that logic – all of the English names for the days of the week are in honour of gods or goddesses (Tiu, Woden, Thor, Freya and possibly Saturn), or the sun and moon which were often either worshipped themselves or highly symbolic of gods or goddesses.
Naming those cultures don’t validate your point, as none of them are descended from the European traditions as modern western cultures are. It is entirely likely that had Christianity never entered Europe, any society descended from Europeans would still celebrate a spring festival. Australia might even, under those circumstances, be sensible and celebrate it in spring instead of autumn.
India:
“Holi is an ancient festival of India and was originally known as ‘Holika’. The festivals finds a detailed description in early religious works such as Jaimini’s Purvamimamsa-Sutras and Kathaka-Grhya-Sutras. Historians also believe that Holi was celebrated by all Aryans but more so in the Eastern part of India.
It is said that Holi existed several centuries before Christ. However, the meaning of the festival is believed to have changed over the years. Earlier it was a special rite performed by married women for the happiness and well-being of their families and the full moon (Raka) was worshiped.
Calculating the Day of Holi
There are two ways of reckoning a lunar month- ‘purnimanta’ and ‘amanta’. In the former, the first day starts after the full moon; and in the latter, after the new moon. Though the amanta reckoning is more common now, the purnimanta was very much in vogue in the earlier days.
According to this purnimanta reckoning, Phalguna purnima was the last day of the year and the new year heralding the Vasanta-ritu (with spring starting from next day). Thus the full moon festival of Holika gradually became a festival of merrymaking, announcing the commencement of the spring season. This perhaps explains the other names of this festival – Vasanta-Mahotsava and Kama-Mahotsava.”
Yeah, kinda spring festival, isn’t it?
(http://www.holifestival.org/history-of-holi.html)
China:
“Chinese New Year or Spring Festival is the most important of the traditional Chinese holidays. It is often called the Lunar New Year, especially by people in mainland China and Taiwan. The festival traditionally begins on the first day of the first month (Chinese: 正月; pinyin: zhēng yuè) in the Chinese calendar and ends on the 15th; this day is called Lantern Festival. Chinese New Year’s Eve is known as Chúxī. It literally means “Year-pass Eve”.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_New_Year
Japan:
The Hina Matsuri or doll festival takes place on March 3rd every year. Its origins go back to China which had the custom of making a doll for the transferral of bad luck and impurities from the person, and then putting the doll in a river and forever ridding oneself of them.
————————
The coming of the cherry blossoms (sakura) is one of the happiest events in Japan. First and foremost it heralds the coming of spring, which is a delight since winters in Japan are bone-chilling cold. They also have a deeper cultural significance since they fall to the ground and disappear in only a couple of weeks (and even sooner if the frequent rains wash them all off the trees), which echoes an ancient cultural belief in the short, transitory nature of youth and life itself.
In Exodus 20:13 the Lord commands, “Thou shall not kill.”
When reading the scriptures it is sometimes helpful to understand the language it was written in. The Old Testament is generally written in Hebrew. There are many good study guides to help you navigate the language differences. The language here speaks to “natural law” and is a reassertion of the law given to Noah in Gen 9:5-6. Just as in our language a difference is made between unlawful killing and killing during war or for the execution of laws. Just like we have today. Immoral killing (murder) is what the passage talks about.
The Israelites do war against the pagan populations in the scriptures. This is by God’s command. His instruction is generally explicit. When the early kings veered away from the will of God, Israel was punished. The captivity of the Israelites by their foes was one form of punishment.
A few closing thoughts in interpreting scripture:
1. Look at the writer and understand his background.
2. Who is the audience? Who did he write the book for specifically.
3. What was happening at the location of the events described? Geopolitical environment…
4. What were the cultural biases of the writer and the audience? This can be very helpful…at least it has been for me.
I hope this helps…
Peace and Blessings to you.
so you are saying that because a bunch of rebellious Israelites disobeyed God’s word, God is contradicting Himself? I don’t see the reasoning here.
God’s directives of war still apply today, if a people group is threatening you, you murder, just like today…If God was saying to protect your people from terrorists, you naturally would protect your own, sometimes war is necessary for a greater cause, if you understand the difference between good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness, right and wrong, you will understand why God directed the Israelites to conquer the midianites…to be anti-war is to be foolish and sheltered.
the same war continues today between the Jews and the Palestinians, it will continue until the day Christ returns….sorry to deflate your balloon Obama.
So you are telling me that you have never had to fight for a cause that is greater than yourself, something that goes beyond mans reason or intellect?
example: poor people being perpetrated on by a corrupt government, women being abused without protection, children being neglected or abused, animals being abused, just to name a few…
Doesn’t this make you want to do something, even if you don’t gain anything from it?
My point is that war sometimes needs to happen to bring freedom. How many people were slaughtered unconsciencely by Sudam Insane? Wouldn’t intercession be the only humanitarian thing to do, didn’t that require war? Would Sudam respond to basic human reasoning? I think not.
Thanks. :D I’m surprised no one else came up with it first, at least not according to Google. It seems so obvious.
So it was a “lawful” killing for the Israelites to cut open pregnant women and kill children and babies?
I’m glad we live in an era in which we have the Geneva convention because, apparently, human morality is higher than god’s morality.
LRA, I couldn’t respond to your follow up, so I am responding to my own.
Are we debating the existence of God or His reasoning? I can’t begin to place myself in the seat of explaining God’s actions. It is beyond both of our comprehension so I make no effort to evaluate His motivations or design.
I can say if I were the supreme ruler of the universe everything would be within my control. We have a distinctly western value system here in the US. We hold life to be the most cherished of gifts. God knows what is beyond the grave. He knows the plan for each of us. So while you and I may think of death as the ultimate penalty, many of the ancient cultures merely considered it a re-birth…a renewal. Just as our first birth does not come without pain, I imagine our second is no different. The Geneva Convention, is only a set of rules made by a few men. They may or may not be adhered to in a time of war. In the end, it doesn’t matter. One thing is certain, we will all die. I believe we will transition into another life. So death is not the end but a new beginning.
Peace
He doesn’t have to live down here. We do. So, shortly, why should we care what or how he values? Moral incomprehensibility might as well be moral vacuity if the results to us are the same.
Wars here. Wars there. Wars, wars, everywhere in the Bible, all commanded by a benevolent god. HMMM. Let me think.
Then we have women being raped. What about those prophets that entered a town to find one good man. They were taken into the man’s home. When the townspeople came by and demanded that the men be given over to them, the owner of the home offered his daughters instead. Nice Christian. That is called abuse of women in my book.
A similar scene is repeated later in the Bible with the man offering his wife. If nothing else, the Bible perpetuates abuse of women.
The Bible is a book of contradictions to numerous to list here. If you really want a list, go to this site: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html
Quite frankly, I don’t think it is worth trying to “look at the writer and his background,” etc., because these people, by today’s standards, were utterly benighted. They knew nothing about geology, astronomy, and biology, all of which have made their belief systems look utterly ridiculous.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
By the way, outside of physics, chemistry, or biology, “natural law” is a vacuous reification, like phlogiston or the luminiferous ether.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
“To be human is to be selfish”.
To be a concern troll is to be concerned.
QED.
The “existence of God “….you mean ‘exist ” as in the existence of the author of this blog , 500 years ago or 500 years in the future ? Existence of a hypothetical Creator of reality is a flawed premise.
If anything, he strengthened the future faith of the theist by pointing out the present weaknesses of his arguments.
What’s wrong with that? I feel the world is enriched when people know better reasons for believing what they believe. Strengthening a person’s faith in this way strengthens particularly the *intellectual rigor* of that faith, makes a more conversible quantity, more sensible to others.
There is very little on this Earth more annoying than not being able to talk with someone because they have not slightest notion of what they are talking about and yet believe it very strongly all the same. The world could do with a bit less of this sort of belief, and a bit more of the sort informed by contemplation, conversation, and challenge.
jt,
You just do not make any sense at all. Surely you realize that a degree does not an educated man make. And Einstein did NOT believe in intelligent design. That is a scholastic myth. Also, Einstein was not necessarily an educated man. Smart yes, Education? Very limited.
MD’s and PHD’s would not necessarily be versed enough to comment authoritatively or even discuss a superior intelligence with the same degree of understanding as even you or me.
Charles Manson could have started a religion 2,000 years ago! 60 different authors over a 1000 year period is one of the main problems with taking the Bible or any so-called sacred scripture seriously. They would also pick and choose. Some writings were put in. Some were left out! If Moby Dick had been written over 2000 years ago and been added to by over 60 different authors for the next 1000 years we might have Sunday aquariums for places of worship all over the world by now. Especially if, for hundreds of years, illiterate religious leaders had non aquatic believers killed. Sure Christianity had a beginning. A long, long time ago. As I said before, you could not possibly get away with trying to start a Christian religion today. It would be laughed off of CNN.
The only reason that religion is perpetuated today is because our children are brainwashed unmercifully in religious cultures. Walk into any first grade schoolroom in America and ask the class how many know where we came from. All hands would go up and when questioned all would reply that God made us! You have to get them early. Very, very few intelligent thinking adults would arrive at that conclusion on their own.
The Nicene Creed is simply comical! There is absolutely NO reason to believe in a supreme BEING of any ilk. I could write a Creed and, if I killed, burned or ostracized enough non believers for thousands of years I dare say it would survive.
As for your comments on the intelligence of the Arabs in the 1st century and the library at Alexandria. I don’t doubt for a minute that the Arabs were intelligent. Just that they were incredibly illiterate by todays standards. And, it probably was a great library. Perhaps one of a very few. FOR ITS DAY! Surely you are not suggesting that any first rate high school library of today would not put it to shame!
As for the flood. Yes, everybody has had one. The one we recently had in North Dakota was of biblical proportions, no doubt. However, that story, if it had any semblence of truth, simply makes that particular god one of the worlds most notorious mass murderers who would surely be prosecuted in the modern world for unspeakable crimes against humanity. Let’s face it. The western god is one horrible, vindictave entity.
And if there was a god why would he want us to worship him? If you were god would you want your creation to worship you? He just wouldn’t fly in todays world without brainwashed little children. And, like I said before, religion is something one inherits from ones family, culture or society. Almost without exception around the world.
Finally, who would have created THIS creature? All religious writings have trouble with this one! Those illiterate Arabs did have sense enough not to get too hung up on this major flaw in their non-logic. He, or it, just always was. Oh, now I understand…………….
I have been pausing for many moments almost all of my life. I was raised in a christian pentecostal atmosphere. Luckily I discovered comic books and learned to read and understand what I read very well at a very early age. I now hold several degrees and have spent a lifetime reading, writing, studying and reflecting. What have I learned? That the concept of supreme beings and religion is silly beyond belief (pun intended). There is absolutely NO proof or reason to believe in a supreme being or deity. If there was and he wanted believers, all he would have to do is scrawl a big message across the moon saying something similar to: THIS IS GOD. Even I would have to take notice of that. Why not make it simple? (The Arabs came up with a good one to counteract that too with “The lord works in mysterious ways.”) A classic.
What do I believe? Based on accumulated knowledge I feel that we are accidents of chemistry and that this unbelieveably large universe is literally teeming with billions of intelligent civilizations the likes of which it is difficult to even imagine. We might not even be the most intelligent life form on this planet. We might even be somewhere on one of the middle rungs of the intelligence ladder here with no way to communicate. Even small creatures that can only be seen through a microscope can kill us. Call that dominion!?
I now have more living behind than in front of me. I love life and I am in awe of this incredibly large universe. I suppose my biggest disappointment with this life is the fact that ignorance is rampant in the world and that there are still humans that believe in gods, goblins, ghost and devils. If there was any reason or proof for these beliefs it would be different. But unfortunately, like I said, we brainwash our young very early.
Anyway, it’s been interesting and fun commenting with you. Perhaps our life forces will meet in another galaxy far, far away several million years from now. How will you recognize me? I’ll be the burnt and singed guy walking down the street with a sign saying, “REPENT”.
@jtcrawford: Einstein … believed in intelligent design – that is a lie check out Einsteins thoughts.
Only 7% of science academics have belief in a personal god (1998 source) – that is only 7% in the entire world – get the picture? And less than 8% have a belief in human immortality.
Thanks for repeating the Nicene Creed – hadn’t read that in ages. Sounds like something people belonging to a cult would chant, doesn’t it? Oh wait …
Einstein actually was an Atheist. As was Abraham Lincoln, probably Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and many other of the great historians. You need to study up a bit more and actually read their writings. When you do, you will realize that they had to write in subtleties, making it appear that they believed in a god but they actually didn’t . Remember that at the time of their writings, Atheists were condemned, often censored, removed from their high positions, and sometimes killed. Galileo did not believe in a god and look what happened to him.
jt, your post would be what we would call “projection.” Oh, and fractally wrong.
I must agree with hkyson on that point. Christians are really good at serving it up to others, but they tend to scream the loudest when someone dares diss them back. Rarely do I see them practice the teachings of Jesus about turning the other cheek, not passing judgement on others and so forth. Countless millions have been slaughtered in the name of Christ over the millennia.
Even today Christians love to preach hatred in the name of love, and many retain a rather fierce mindset of militancy when it comes to imposing their own set of values upon the rest of humanity. Their charity is almost always conditional. Here in town at the homeless rescue mission, someone cold and starving must first sit through a church service and listen to a sermon before getting a hot meal and a bed for the night — a prime example of good ol’ Baptist charity at work there!
Even QuakerDave had to get in his little dig here a little further down in the thread about atheists being childish. It is my understanding that Quakers are pacifists and are taught to “be still and know that I am God” — QuakerDave is a proud liberal agitator who vociferously proclaims to work toward peace, freedom and equality for all. I guess he offers his activism for universal peace and tolerance to everyone around the world except to atheists with a sense of humor. Maybe QuakerDave needs to grow up just a little bit more himself.
…and these are just the ruminations of a wild hungry tabbiecat in the middle of the night. I think I’ll run off and eat some oatmeal now.
Stan, heading out to Church this morning. I don’t think we will agree on this one anytime soon. Maybe you are right…after death I think we will agree. Education and intelligence do seem to run together. I am not saying lack of an education means low or no intelligence but I will say education shows ones ability to understand and process material.
Personally speaking, understanding something fully has never been a prerequisite for it being real. When I was in high school I had the toughest time with calculus. Proofs, models and the sort seemed like voodoo to me. Yet they tell me it’s all true.
Einstein did believe in intelligent design. He wrote several notes regarding this belief. His most recent biography mentions the fact a dozen or so times.
Sure Stan, you could create a creed. But would you be willing to follow those beliefs unto death? Mark was martyred in Alexandria under the reign of Nero. His body was dragged behind an ox cart through the narrow stone covered streets. Could you, in your absense, convince thousands and even millions to follow your ideas? More importantly, could you do it without force? Without a position of power? Jesus was no earthly king. How could he have instituted such changes on a backward world? There was no CNN or Blogsites to spread the news. Wouldn’t his actions had to have been very note worthy to even get traction?
I believe we hold our faith at a distance and observe it and test it. Isaiah 1:18 says ” Come let us reason together.” That’s still valid today. We (Christians) would gain nothing by believing in a false truth or false god. Yet that is not the case. There is too much belief that Christians are “head down into the Bible and all else get out of the way.” It’s simply not true. If you want to delve deeper into the subject I am happy to take some time. But we might choose a single bit at a time. I believe firmly, that there is a God. His story is told through the words of the Bible. I also believe others wrote about him.
With less of your life ahead than behind…it seems one last look wouldn’t hurt eh?
Dorkman,
Your source smells of bias. I do not know the publication but anything that uses the “Daily Mail” as a reference can’t be a true scholarly journal can it? The random sampling, regression analysis, reporting errors would all be in question to me. I know scientist at Jefferson National Labs, NASA, and Universities who proclaim Jesus their personal Lord and Savior. In fact, I don’t know of many who reject Christianity…I am certain there are adequate numbers.
One failing of our faith probably comes from the “Great Awakening.” Preachers with little knowledge began to spread the Gospel. The farther you reach back, the more interesting the story becomes. The information is there. Are there parts without complete information sure…but isn’t Lucy a bit of a stretch and doesn’t the big bang have a few holes of its own? Just because we can’t explain something doesn’t make it true.
Stan,
You and I are in the same ‘pew’. It is a fact that most educated people do not believe in god. They find that it is an irrational belief, having no proof whatsoever. Most people who still hold on to the idea of there being a god often do so for socialization purposes, because they are afraid that they will be ridiculed, or because they like the traditions. I know one ‘Atheist’, not a pure Atheist as there are gradations within the realm of Atheism (Dawkins, The God Delusion), who still goes to church and celebrates the holidays just because he likes the rituals. He does not believe in god or Jesus or anything proposed by the religion. Just likes doing the holidays and singing the songs. Plus, it leads his family to believe that he is still a Christian. Some Atheists just can’t come out of the closet. Closet Atheists are all over this world because they don’t want to put up with Christians harping on them all the time, trying to convert them or telling them they will burn in hell.
In the end, it is the uneducated that tend to follow religions. An educated person or well read person will understand the science behind all that happens in the universe and realize that there is no god.
Uh, Stan, I don’t believe that a world-class physicist such as Newton or Einstein can be fairly considered to be uneducated.
Einstein’s views on religion are actually quite subtle, as a person can see on http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/23008.
Here are some remarks I copied from this site:
“Pantheism and the personal God
“Einstein’s conviction that nature is rational is closely linked to his conception of God: he could not believe that God played dice with the universe, because that would be irrational. He accepted what he believed to be the corollary, namely that human beings have no free will. Einstein’s other favourite saying – that the Lord is subtle but not malicious – is related to the same conviction of rationality. “Nature”, he concluded, “hides her secret because of her essential loftiness, but not by means of ruse.”
“For those who regard all forms of religious belief as superstition, it would be attractive to conclude that Einstein simply meant “nature” whenever he used the word “God”. Indeed, identifying God with nature is known as pantheism, a belief that is generally attributed to the unorthodox Jewish philosopher Baruch Spinoza (1632-1677). We know that Einstein admired Spinoza greatly and, although he did not share all of his religious views, it would seem plausible to label Einstein a pantheist.
“However, in 1929 – during a rare interview with a journalist – Einstein was directly asked if he believed in the God of Spinoza. “I can’t answer with a simple yes or no,” he replied. “I am not an atheist [and] I do not know if I can define myself as a pantheist.” Indeed, pantheists view God and the universe as co-eternal and believe that there was no act of creation, whereas Einstein does seem to have regarded the universe as a creation.
“But why did Einstein not believe in a personal God? To answer that question, we have to understand what he meant by the term. I would define a personal God as a God with whom human beings can have a relationship, analogous to those they have with one another. Although this idea might seem to indicate that God has a human form, I think it is perfectly possible to believe in a personal God who is not anthropomorphic. I suspect – but cannot clearly demonstrate – that Einstein sometimes confused the two ideas.
“For example, while Einstein certainly did not like anthropomorphism, he still used personal terms, such as subtlety and malice, when speaking about God. Indeed, in his 1929 interview, the best simile he could think of for God was as the author of a whole library of books! Einstein would probably have defended himself by pointing to the limitations of human language, which make it almost impossible to avoid personal terminology completely.
“But it is surprising that Einstein used such personal terms when talking about God, given that he saw his lifelong devotion to science as an attempt to transcend the “merely personal” in his own life; this suggests that he thought a personal God would be a limited God. Whatever he meant by “personal God”, Einstein remained consistent in his opposition to the idea until the very end of his life.
Cosmic religion
“Although Einstein was not always consistent in what he said about God, there is a consistent theme running through his thoughts on religion – a theme that he called “cosmic religion”. He used this term to reflect the awe he felt when confronted with the universe and our ability to begin, at least, to comprehend it. Writing in 1930, he saw hints of this cosmic religion in the Psalms and the Hebrew prophets, and more clearly in Buddhism. This cosmic religion, he wrote, “knows no dogma and no God conceived in man’s image; so that there can be no church whose central teachings are based on it”.
“Einstein’s dislike of organized religion is clear. Many people today, according to opinion polls, have similar ideas. They profess to believe in the spiritual – or even in God – yet rarely or never enter a church, mosque or synagogue. However, Einstein should not be regarded as their precursor. Their “new-age spirituality” is often anti-scientific, whereas Einstein’s cosmic religion was based firmly on a profound understanding of the physical universe, and of its underlying mathematical structure.
“Einstein also often referred to his feelings of mystery and awe. The mystery, it seems to me, had three elements. Why is there anything at all? Why is the universe rational and ordered? And how can we, with our limited human minds, understand and appreciate at least something of that ordered rationality? I believe he used the word “God” as a shorthand for all this because he could think of none better.
“Einstein’s condemnation of anthropomorphic images of God is at one with the most profound insights of all religions. He knew very well that the second commandment (which Jews and Muslims have kept more strictly than Christians) says we should not make any graven image and bow down and worship it. On that theme, Einstein agrees with the Hebrew prophets, whom he saw as forerunners of his cosmic religion.
“Whether or not he meant more than their denunciations of idols when he denied belief in a personal God, I do not know. However, Einstein’s cosmic religion differs both from orthodox monotheism and from scientific materialism because of his conviction that science and religion must work together to explore the mysteries that fascinated him. That, surely, is the meaning of another of his famous sayings: “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
Box: Einstein on God and religion
” * [Quantum] theory yields much, but it hardly brings us close to the Old One’s secrets. I, in any case, am convinced He does not play dice. (1926, in a letter to Max Born)
” * I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual who survives his physical death…. (1930, from an essay)
” * We see a universe marvellously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand those laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. (1929, part of his reply to the question: “Do you believe in the God of Spinoza?”)
” * What I am really interested in is whether God could have created the world in a different way; in other words, whether the requirement of logical simplicity admits a margin of freedom. (Mid-1940s, remark reported by Ernst Gabor Straus, then Einstein’s assistant)
” * Then I would feel sorry for the good Lord. The theory is correct anyway. (1919, reply to his assistant, Ilse Rosenthal-Schneider, who asked what he would have done had Eddington’s eclipse measurements not supported general relativity)
” * Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. (1941, from an essay)
Prosint omnibus nobis!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Childish…
jt,
No one person convinced thousands or millions to follow his ideas. These creation myths were created by illiterate arabs. What illiterate wouldn’t buy a ticket on that bus. Eternal life. You get to see your dead relatives and friends again? Perfect opportunity for dumb and dumber.
Yes, christians do have something to gain by believing in a false truth or false god. Eternal life. A chance to see grandma and grandpa again. And those silly ideas spread. It was easy back then. Try to initiate those same ideas on a college campus today. Not possible. Now if you went to some backwoods areas you might have a very slim chance of perpetuating those stories. Especially if you started killing non believers and your killings were sanctioned by the state which was, of course, controlled by the church.
Mark (or whatever his name was. All of the names in the bible were anglicized once the masses learned to read) was not martyred. If such a person even existed he was killed out of ignorance (mainly his) rampant in his time.
The problem with religion is the source. Scraps of writings cobbled together over a 1000 year period written by over 600 illiterate arabs. Many thousands more scraps were left out than were put in to help perpetuate the cute story.
Then the English came along and changed all the names in the bible to make it sound more believable (whoever heard of an arab named matthew, mark, luke or john.) Then they started burning and killing non believers. Pretty good way to get masses of followers in the Dark Ages. They sure don’t call them Dark for nothing.
Christianity is an eastern, arabic religion started and perpetuated by illiterate arabs. It is still taken to much greater extremes where it started and where it should have been kept. Jesus christ! (pun intended) poor Illiterate women kept in burkas, beard patrols and the teaching of religion in every aspect of society and schools. (You have got to get them early or these ridiculous beliefs will die) And, of course, still killing non believers.
It simply amazes me that after millions of years of life forms on this planet that there are humans with brains that still believe in a magic man in the sky that just always was who created everything and wants his creation to worship him! (and he might drown you if you don’t) If the masses on earth could just remotely comprehend the vastness of space and time they would realize that these cute little stories about gods and godesses were just way too small for what we actually have here.
Well, its been fun but I’ve got to go now. The easter bunny came last night and left me a basket around here somewhere I’m sure. He always hides it. That little devil.
@jtcrawford: Your source smells of bias – so prove me wrong with a “more reliable” source. There have been many studies done along these lines and the fact is that over 90% of the scientific acedemic community do not believe in a personal god.
You are just trying to fudge the figures by going on about statistical methods and personal friends with PhD’s who believe in Jesus.
My personal experience in scientific academia is pretty much consistent with the studies.
I notice you quitely sudestepped my other two points:
Your lie about Einstein’s religious convictions.
The Nicene Creed being blindly repeated over over by a bunch of sheep is classic cultism.
@jtcrawford: I am certain there are adequate numbers – oh boy. I missed that one.
Why should I be surprised? Once again believing what you want to believe despite the facts in front of you.
Again: get over it.
Why do the overly non-religious get hooked on debates ?
I disagree on whether the argument can be won . I’ve seen many , that have seen the soundness of reason and others convinced by obvious conviction to seek God .
Oh yes it could happen even in these modern times.
Look at the supposed to be Annanuky and the planet Nibiru/X that will distroy us all in 2012.
People want to believe in these crazy things, and it gets worsened by this crisis period where one powerfull guy could come to power and start creating a second Third Reigh just like Hitler did.
Or some other fanatic religious nut coming onto power and start nuking the rest of the unfidels.
I am still amazed about the stupidity of modern people.
These are excellent points!
One thing I often bring up is that we as a species have lived on this planet for at least 100,000 years and that the Bible was written about 2,000 years ago by a tribe of ignorant sheepherders who knew nothing about geology, astronomy, or biology.
I then ask how on earth we were able to survive all these tens of thousands of years without the services of people like Moses and Christ.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
What I generally say parallels what you say, Stan. I often start out something like this:
The bible was written by a group of ignorant sheepherders (that is why Christianity has expressions such as “lamb of God”) who knew nothing about geology, astronomy, and biology.
They had no way of knowing that we as a species have been on this planet for 100,000, perhaps even 200,000 years and evolved from earlier hominids.
They thought they were at the center of the universe and that their god made the sun, the moon, and the stars especially for them so that they could abjectly glorify him and be punished by him through floods and earthquakes because of their past sins. (They knew very little about hydrology and nothing at all about plate tectonics.)
They were a benighted, ethnocentric, group of people who constantly fought against other similar tribes either for religious reasons or to control more territory so they could herd more sheep.
For random historical reasons, they were lucky enough to survive as an ethnic and religious group today while producing two offspring from their religion, Christianity and Islam. All three religions often fought one another in the past in Europe, and the Jews and the Muslims are still fighting each other today. They are both utterly benighted groups that richly deserve each other as enemies.
(Feel free to plagiarize from me at will!)
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
From their perspective, it’s hard to imagine that a person would either lack or cease a belief in Jesus if they weren’t motivated by:
1. Anger at circumstances
or
2. Lack of knowledge of Jesus
…because Jesus’ divinity is self-evidently true to them and thus must be the focus of all attitudes about Christianity.
Once upon a time, someone told a person in a church who has attend Benny Hinn’s crusade that the miracles were not what they seemed to be and … Should I justified that as holy anger?
Maybe not, anger is anger.
Never mind that the truth of Allah is clear to Muslims and the truth of the Buddha is clear to Buddhists. Yes, we angry non-religious people just can’t see the clear truth of the messiah just as Christians don’t see the clear truths of other religions.
Things that make you go…. hmmmmmm…..
Yeah, it isn’t in the play book so if someone walks away unconvinced it must be because s/he was angry at something someone did or said, etc. One of the problems with the net is that since we can’t see visual or hear vocal cues, we tend to fill in the missing content with our own pre-judgments. Further I think that cognitive dissonance makes it hard to look closely or mull over specific arguments.
Deputizing a crass stereotype of an entire culture into your argument? That’s…dishonorable.
Yeah- considering the Buddhist, Confucianist, and Shinto influences on Japanese society that Christians condemn.
DorkMan,
I could not have said it better.
What I find really interesting is that this blog is obviously by an Atheist. If I go to the blog of a Christian (which I would never do) and post to convert them or convince them they are wrong (also, which I would never do), I would expect them to become upset and lash out at me. In the same manner, if a Christian comes to the blog of an Atheist, should not they expect the same?
I find it amusing that Christians can’t keep their fingers off the keyboard when they read an Atheist’s blog. Their is nothing wrong with reading and not posting to convert, you know. The same with Atheists on Christian blogs. There is nothing wrong with reading and just laughing your head off, knowing that they believe in the irrational and you believe in the rational.
” He died for us. hmmm, now that’s love!!”
No, that’s suicidal stupidity. I didn’t ask him to “die” for me, for there’s no logical reason for some first century religious rebel to have undertaken such an action. And if the “god” on whose behalf he was acting required this sacrifice, then I say that “god” is not worthy of following, for it is utterly sadistic and abusive.
“So give the candy jokes a rest, come down off your chocolate high and use your heart to figure out the real truth about why Easter, why Passover and why we still have freedom to write this ridiculous stuff in this country, it’s because He gave us freedom, freedom from sin, freedom from oppressive government, freedom to live.”
Alternatively, you could go visit other blogs that would support you in your infantile delusions instead of coming here and spouting the same tired script that seems to be programmed into you. Or, you could grow a sense of humor.
Jesus gave Americans freedom of speech and freedom from oppressive government? I didn’t know that.
Look, Christ did none of the things you are convinced he did. He was merely what the traditional Jews of his time would consider a false prophet. He was apparently an effective enough competitor against them that they felt threatened by him and had him killed.
(In Latin America, the Catholic Church feels a similar threat today from certain protestant sects that are successfully attracting growing numbers of followers. Perhaps unfortunately–from their point of view–they are no longer able to revive the Inquisition. Pope RATzinger, by the way, was the head of the Catholic organization that grew out of the Inquisition before he became pope.)
Everything you said about Christ’s accomplishments is nothing more than mythological bullshit.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Look, dougwadedesign, Jesus conquered neither death nor hell. I can assure you that he is now as dead as a doornail and will never come back. As for hell, it is nothing but a perverse invention of an utterly mad mythological system.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Worse– this guy instructs us to use our “heart” to figure out “real truth”.
Ok- so using my “emotions” (assuming he didn’t literally mean the beating muscle in my chest) to figure out truth?? Does that sound wise to anyone? Using the emotions instead of reason? Really?
Don’t get me wrong, emotions have a place in informing reason, but ignoring reason in place of the “heart” is just…
unreasonable faith! (Gee, where have I heard that before?)
My heart sincerely goes out to the anti theist who struggles with the concept or meaning of the word “simile” . They dont understand implied conscience , or personality , yet frequently use the words “sunset and sunrise ” . Havent they figured out that the earth revolves yet ?
the heart follows the head, see my latest post to the originator, take the Naysayer Challenge!!
You guys are still at it…like little chocolate energizer bunnies. Church was great this morning.
Nice debate. Thanks for laying off the personal attacks and looking at the issue. In the end, your still wrong and the Christians are right.
There are a lot of folks bashing the scriptures, their authors and validity. Yet without question, the Bible is the most authenticated book in history. Also don’t forget that until Constantine there was persecution of Christians.
Why is it easier to hypothesize about black holes, quantum physics and high minded science than to believe in a supreme creator?
Busy night…good night everyone.
Who’s the fool? The fool who writes the blog or the fool who gets all het up and thinks that his/her .02 cents will change his mind…not to mention following a zombie death cult that cribs from half a dozen other religions?
“Christianity tried you and you didn’t work”
So…does that mean Daniel is broken?
Which means goD made him wrong right?
The Jesus in the Gospels explicitly stated, “Call no man a fool”.
You can’t mock something that doesn’t exist.
Grow a thicker skin and realize that just because it is religion, it is not off limits to criticism. It is because religion has been given this shield to protect it from criticism that it has become the influence and power in politics that it has today. It is time for it to be criticized and that the weaknesses and fallacies inherent in religion be exposed so that people can find the truth, that it is just a fable, a myth developed from other stupid myths.
Olaf,
Your short but precise comment is so important that if you choose to run for any political office I will gladly support you. I think there is a website on this idiocy you speak of called :godhatesamputees.com or whygodhatesamputees.com
youll love it!!! Give me your feedback. -)
M
SORRY, THE LINK TO SUPPORT WHAT YOU SAY IS:
http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Nope, you are the one who missed the point — completely! …but enjoy your Easter. :D
AMEN (I mean I agree)!!
Uh, look. Christ didn’t rise again from the dead.
By the way, did you know that there were other religions before Christianity centered around myths of prophets born of virgins who were killed and rose again from the dead?
This myth is by no means limited to Christianity.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Thanks for your kind words of understanding.
I myself have had to sit through sermons at churches and Salvation Army posts before being fed.
Forcing people to listen to this bullshit before feeding them utterly destroys the humanity of this charitable gesture.
I would not mind, however, if they simply said something like the following: “We would like to remind you that this is a religious institution. For those of you in need of our spiritual counseling, we have people on the site who are available to help you after you eat.”
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Well, you don’t have the right to not be offended. In other words, put your big boy pants on and go somewhere else on the web…it’s a big Internet, you know.
thought the title of this short expose is offensive – tell someone who cares …
If you who believe in the invisible sky friend would say something that remotely made sense and didn’t sound like it came straight from a Sunday school primer, I’d probably be a bit kinder. I see no reason to treat illogical inanities with anything but contempt.
So Hitler cynically used religious teachings to manipulate the masses. Many religious leaders (one example that immediately comes to mind is Catholic clergymen who have conned people into giving them money and land in exchange for praying for them to keep them from going to hell) do the same.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Oh hi, almost didn’t see you down there.
Stick around. You’ll be able to post closer to the top of other threads. And some of us do scroll all the way down. :)
to further explain my post, the freedom that is given (through Christ) transcends anything that man can do to us….
Yes that’s true, men who believed in One God, the God of the Bible, the founding fathers that drafted the Constitution were deists, inspired by God’s holy word
I truly feel sorry for the theist who thinks the simile referring to the heart refers to anything other than the emotions. They have really missed out on the head versus heart trope that litters all of Western literature!
I recommend better sources. Talk to a university professor (or a bunch of them) who has read the bible as literature and understands its context in history.
Lee Stroebel– a scholar he ain’t!!!
From Yale University Press:
http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/SearchResultsTMM.asp?selType=Keyword&txtCriteria=Jesus&q=&Subject=0
Perhaps you should consider the possibility that many of us actually DID seriously look into Christianity and discarded it BECAUSE we did this, rather than because we missed some crucial piece of information.
Sorry, been there, done that, still an Atheist.
The problem is that an Atheist bases their believe upon what is rational. They believe in what can be proven. To believe in God and Jesus requires faith. By definition, faith is the belief in something that has not been proven to exist. Thus, an Atheist is never, ever going to believe in God or Jesus because they have not been proven to exist.
It is as simple as that.
So called brother Ben-Henum is a false profit, not a representative of Bible believing Christ followers
that works too, but a university professor who is convinced for Christ, not JUST a scholar….
Uh, I believe it is silly to say “Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
These two sentences are rhetorically elegant, but they are like other silly and contradictory proverbs, such as “Out of sight, out of mind” or “Absence makes the heart grow fonder.”
I don’t think it is lame at all to contemplate the universe as it is in strictly physical terms. Recently I contributed a brief article to my blog, “Interlingua multilingue,” about a recently discovered galaxy with two black holes at its center that are orbiting each other with less than a light year of distance between them.
Eventually it seems these two black holes will collide, no doubt wreaking havoc on the stars surrounding them. Contemplating things like this makes makes the contemplation of religious myths seem utterly anemic and trivial.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
hkyson,
A world class physicist does NOT an educated man make! Witness MA’s and PHD’s in the field of theology. Einstein was NOT an educated man in the truest sense of the word. His knowledge and/or UNDERSTANDING of physics was great. But I doubt he knew who Hannibal was and probably could not recite ANY poetry from memory.
He would have been a horribly boring dinner companion unless one steered the conversation toward physics or patents.
Uh, Stan, you make an excellent point about people with advanced degrees in theology!
I don’t know whether Einstein could have recited poetry or not, though I think it is probable that he could.
I also think it is extremely likely that he knew who Hannibal, Julius Caesar, and Caesar Augustus were, though there may be no way of finding this out for sure.
He did play the violin reasonably well and often entertained the children in his neighborhood with his playing (I don’t know whether he every played with other musicians).
If I may express myself in vernacular terms, he was obviously a very nice, modest guy. He made many attempts to explain his theories in terms that non-physicists could understand.
I think he must have had a very secure grasp of the historical events of the time he lived in. He was once offered the job of being president of Israel, but he wisely refused.
I am sure that because of his fame as a physicist most people would find his dinner table conversation utterly fascinating no matter what he talked about.
By the way, though I haven’t yet said this explicitly, I greatly enjoy reading your posts and strongly agree with you more than ninety percent of the time.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
This is the beauty, Jesus was God and Man both. It’s a mystery, don’t try to figure it out logically, God doesn’t do things in the logical, His ways are motivated by His love for us, His ways are not our ways, His thoughts, not our thoughts…Take the Naysayer Challenge. see below.
Powpowgo, you are being utterly incoherent when you say, “But Jesus died and went to hell and the Spirit of God came to rescue him the so called resurrection. Jesus God needed another GOD to save him? What type of God is this? Your salvation is questionable and that’s why Christians are suffering miserable life you sideline God and worship man who is dead man can’t bless or save you.”
This nonsense of your perhaps will not land you in a mental hospital because it is such a generally well-known part of mainline Christian mythology. But other very similar ravings could quite easily learn you a prolonged stay on a funny farm–especially if you said something like this:
“But Hypipsoline died and was cast into the lake of fire, and the spirit of Zenopholine came to rescue him and renewed his vital life forces from the original vomit of the snake that created the universe. Zenopholine and his life force needed a more powerful life force to save him, but it was frozen out by his stubbornness, and that is why his followers are suffering such miserable lives. They refuse to ingest the original vomit of the snake that created the universe. They are all lost souls on the borders between the lake of fire and the lake of ice, as one side of them burns and the other side freezes.”
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Yes, ardubaie, I think it is possible that Einstein deliberately fudged his religious belief or non-belief to remain socially acceptable.
I think it is probable that René Descartes did the same when he professed a belief in God. When Descartes was alive, professing a non-belief in God could easily lead to a slow, excruciating execution by the Catholic Church. This gave him a very powerful incentive to lie.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
I like what you are saying, I just don’t agree, Christian sites are boring, I like a healthy debate, can’t get a good healthy debate on religious blogs…thanks for the conversation
Excuse me? Disobeyed??? No, I don’t think so.
Let’s check out Numbers 31:
“Numbers 31
31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, (31:1-54)
“”Have you saved all the women alive?”
Under God’s direction, Moses’ army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: “Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins — Wow! (Even God gets some of the booty — including the virgins.)
Massacre of the Midianites
31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
31:3 And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the LORD of Midian.
31:4 Of every tribe a thousand, throughout all the tribes of Israel, shall ye send to the war.
31:5 So there were delivered out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand of every tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
31:6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy instruments, and the trumpets to blow in his hand.
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
“As the Lord commanded Moses, they slew all the males.”
Did the Israelites kill every male in Midian?
31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. They took the women and children captives, and burnt all their cities.
31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
31:11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
31:12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
31:14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. (31:14-18)
“Have ye saved all the women alive?”
Moses was angry with the officers saying: “Have ye saved all the women alive?
Was Moses meek?
What the Bible says rape and abortion
31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
Moses tells the Israelites to kill every male and all the non-virgin females, but to keep the virgins for themselves.
Is it wrong to commit adultery?
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
31:19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
31:20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats’ hair, and all things made of wood.
31:21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
31:22 Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead,
31:23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water.
31:24 And ye shall wash your clothes on the seventh day, and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp.
31:25 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, God tells Moses to make an offering of “man and beast” as a “heave offering of the Lord.”
Does God approve of human sacrifice?
31:26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
31:27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
31:28 And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle: one soul of five hundred, both of the persons, and of the beeves, and of the asses, and of the sheep:
31:29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.
31:30 And of the children of Israel’s half, thou shalt take one portion of fifty, of the persons, of the beeves, of the asses, and of the flocks, of all manner of beasts, and give them unto the Levites, which keep the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD.
31:31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
31:32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep, (31:32-40)
The booty included 32,000 virgins and 16,000 persons, of which God got 32.
31:33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,
31:34 And threescore and one thousand asses,
31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.
31:36 And the half, which was the portion of them that went out to war, was in number three hundred thousand and seven and thirty thousand and five hundred sheep:
31:37 And the LORD’s tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen.
31:38 And the beeves were thirty and six thousand; of which the LORD’s tribute was threescore and twelve.
31:39 And the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred; of which the LORD’s tribute was threescore and one.
31:40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the LORD’s tribute was thirty and two persons.
31:41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the LORD’s heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.
31:42 And of the children of Israel’s half, which Moses divided from the men that warred,
31:43 (Now the half that pertained unto the congregation was three hundred thousand and thirty thousand and seven thousand and five hundred sheep,
31:44 And thirty and six thousand beeves,
31:45 And thirty thousand asses and five hundred,
31:46 And sixteen thousand persons;)
31:47 Even of the children of Israel’s half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the LORD; as the LORD commanded Moses.
31:48 And the officers which were over thousands of the host, the captains of thousands, and captains of hundreds, came near unto Moses:
31:49 And they said unto Moses, Thy servants have taken the sum of the men of war which are under our charge, and there lacketh not one man of us.
31:50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.
31:51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of them, even all wrought jewels.
31:52 And all the gold of the offering that they offered up to the LORD, of the captains of thousands, and of the captains of hundreds, was sixteen thousand seven hundred and fifty shekels.
31:53 (For the men of war had taken spoil, every man for himself.)
31:54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest took the gold of the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tabernacle of the congregation, for a memorial for the children of Israel before the LORD.”
@dorkman:
Oh how quickly we forget 911
I find your 9/11 comment personally offensive. I lived LESS THAN 2 MILES from the World Trade Center when it was destroyed. I lived with the aftermath of the terrorist attacks IN THE CITY IN WHICH IT HAPPENED!!! For months and months and months people grieved and were afraid. I was scared for my life. I KNEW PEOPLE WHO DIED IN THE WORLD TRADE CENTER!!!
You NEVER NEVER NEVER get to tell me what I remember and what I forget!!!
Yet, even having experienced this blow personally, I still don’t believe in war at any cost. Period.
And I would like to add–
No matter what the Islamic fundamentalists have done to us (and to me personally) I would never cut open their pregnant women nor kill their children. You know… because I have standards.
Duh. Killing pregnant women and babies IS murder.
I think you should ask the Palestinians why they throw their children in front of US military soldiers, with guns, to be slaughtered…
difference here is, the United states military respects life and takes great measures to protect civilians in the case of war, funny thing here is, the US miltary cares more about the children then the actual parents…
We can drop a bomb with such accuracy that it only destroys the intended target, most military operations will clear a city of innocent civilians before executing it’s operation…I know, my son does this…
@elemenope
yes, whoops, I am not 100% on scripture as you can see, but the point still remains….read on
Same yesterday, today and forever (in context) refers to his character.
If you are taking this out of context and applying it to the case of death and war, then you will have to know God’s character to see why war?
I don’t see atheists up in arms about women being killed by abortion, let alone their dead babies being slaughtered during a late term procedure…why is war any different? It still involves innocent victims…
Dougwaddedesigh, if you believe that abortion is murder, what legal penalty should be paid by women who have had abortions. Should they be stoned to death (a common old-testament punishment for similar kinds of “sin”). Should they serve at least twenty years in jail?
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Not necessarily– I say ask *both* and see which seems more *reasonable*.
Unlike Faux News, I believe in fair and balanced seeking!
Look, dougwadedesign, your statement that “the Word was God, the Word is Jesus, the Word is His spoken Word. He became the Word in the flesh” is utterly incoherent nonsense. Were this bullshit not part of Christian tradition, a student of freshman composition at any college would be given an F for writing it!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Yes, dougwadedesign, or whatever the fuck your name is, I was aware that these words came from the Bible. My point is that if they were not so well known to us because of the influence Christianity and the Bible have had on our culture, they would still be dismissed as incoherent nonsense.
The Bible is a largely disgusting work. It does not deserve by any means the prestige our culture has traditionally attached to it!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
dougwadedesign is like a scab I can’t stop picking at. Every time I think he’s reached the limit, he goes six feet past it.
How do you “over complicate” circular inanity such as that statement you made?
It’s utterly meaningless on its face. Are you any better at math than you are at logic?
God = Jesus
Jesus = Word
Word = God
Therefore God = God.
0 = 0. Fine, now can we get on with something more interesting?
The concept of “greater cause” is highly problematic.
We Americans, for example, see it is a greater cause to impose “democracy” on people such as the Muslims, while they see it as a greater cause to impose sharia on us.
In the case of the Israelis and the Palestinians, you see two equally benighted people enthralled to their respective religions trying to kill each other off because of religious issues.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
@doug – with a fantastic attitude like that conflicts will never be resolved.
No wonder those of us in the outside world mistrust the motivation of the perceived US crusades.
No- God’s directives are atrocious!!!! They are horrible!!! Civilized countries follow the Geneva Convention!!! Murdering pregnant women and children is NOT ok!!!! Raping women and forcing young virginal girls into forced marriage is NOT ok!!!!
If you think it is ok, then you are SICK!!!!
Roger, why is it so hard to comprehend that the creator God, who created you, wants you to know him? simple question.
This is not a mystery, this is utterly incoherent religious mythology!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Can’t suspend my beliefs now, I am willing to die for them. Tried it once, it was a bad dream, not going back there again. God ROCKS!!
Wow–Pascal’s wager. And you thought of it first!
Wonder why they didn’t name it after you?
Also: “[A]bsolutely, not for a fairy tale though. I would die for you. if I was asked to do so.”
Don’t tempt me.
Forgiveness isn’t taught in the Muslim faith, Forgiveness is the foundation of the Christ-follower. Forgiveness is what you need, from your unbelief.
Forgiveness is what I exercise when I am being lambasted by naysayers…
MO SAID.
I’ll leave you with this (especially Bill and LRA), don’t have anything but my life and my belief…
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell. [See Calvin]
The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.
Now I have to Go, House is coming on, elemenope are you with me?
No– the bible is *enormously* complicated! If that weren’t the case, then why would bible scholars bother to learn hermeneutics, exegesis, Greek and Hebrew languages, etc?
I mean, one could build an entire academic career just on interpretation alone!!!!
For people to assume otherwise is an anti-intellectual bias.
Just to prove my point:
In the beginning was the WORD (LOGOS), and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God.
Do you have any idea of the history of the concept of LOGOS? It dates back to 500 BC with Anaximander, Heraclitus, and Plato (just for starters).
translation in child’s terms (not saying this in a vicious manner)
the Word was God, the Word is Jesus, the Word is His spoken Word. He became the Word in the flesh. He became the true interpretation of God. I am not having trouble with interpreting this one.
I think we humans over complicate scripture sometimes. Although…I have studied the Word of God for over 20 years now and still have a lot to learn…
You just don’t get it do you? You think the bible just poofed into existence and that the writers weren’t coming from a cultural context? You don’t understand that part of studying a work *in translation* is understanding that our language doesn’t necessarily capture the *sense* of the words in another language, nor does our language necessarily convey the etiological roots on the language being translated.
No– you just point to the bible and say “well there it is in black and white.”
LRA,
I don’t want to copy and paste this stuff, it would be a big waste so here are a few study links for to research, it is on the canonization of the Bible…
http://www.foundationsforfreedom.net/Topics/Bible/Bible_Canonization.html
http://www.christinyou.net/pages/canonscript.html
http://www.google.com/archivesearch?q=canonization+of+scripture&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&scoring=t&ei=q0flSeedPOaEmQevzt3wCQ&sa=X&oi=timeline_result&resnum=11&ct=title
These are good references on the validity of when and how scripture became acceptable as Gods Holy word..
Doug- No offense, but I already know how the bible was canonized. It was done by a bunch of men hundreds of years after Jesus’ death. You’d think that a scripture that was “God breathed” would be decided earlier than that!
translation in child’s terms (not saying this in a vicious manner)
the Word was God, the Word is Jesus, the Word is His spoken Word. He became the Word in the flesh. He became the true interpretation of God. I am not having trouble with interpreting this one.
I think we humans over complicate scripture sometimes. Although…I have studied the Word of God for over 20 years now and still have a lot to learn…
translation in child’s terms (not saying this in a vicious manner)
the Word was God, the Word is Jesus, Jesus was there with God the father in the beginning, the Word is His spoken Word. He became the Word in the flesh. He became the true interpretation of God. I am not having trouble with interpreting this one.
I think we humans over complicate scripture sometimes. Although…I have studied the Word of God for over 20 years now and still have a lot to learn…
If you say so. However, you were extrapolating in the extreme. Christ didn’t give us freedom of speech or democracy. Man did.
ok, I am thinking this:
If I am wrong I’ve lost nothing, but if you are wrong you’ve lost everything. This is why I am motivated to share my relationship with Him. The one who unlocks the mysteries of life. Take the challenge, you won’t be sorry.
If you’re wrong and the muslims are right, you’re going to Muslim Hell for being a Christ-worshipper.
Pascal’s Wager is a proposition based on flawed premises.
Suspend your theistic beliefs for three weeks.
See if anything in your life changes.
If your beliefs are valid, then this thought exercise should have no effect on them.
Is that a challenge? Decide for yourself.
look, dougwadedesign, you are repeating Pascal’s wager. Blaise Pascal lived between 1623 and 1662, at the very beginning of the scientific era. If he lived today, I am quite sure he would be confident that Christian teachings about Judgment Day and Hell are nothing more than mythological bullshit.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
“If I am wrong I’ve lost nothing, but if you are wrong you’ve lost everything.”
And if you’re worshiping the wrong god, you’ve lost everything plus all that time you wasted worshiping.
If you wager incorrectly and worship the wrong god, you may be worse than not worshiping at all.
(I’d be more pissed you worshiped the competition)
Since there have been hundreds if not thousands of gods thru history, and many sects of each, your odds seem about the same as an atheist’s.
Again, God made it so we could know for sure, our destiny, our relationship with Him is secured through accepting Christs work on the cross and His resurrection. It’s not a spiritual crap shoot, I wouldn’t gamble with my life, nor would any of the other 10 million believers…
You need to stop looking at the bad examples of Christ and start your own journey….
No religion, no fancy hats, no flowing robes, no choirs, no stain glass windows, just you and God…dookin it out
Knock and the door will be opened.
“No religion, no fancy hats, no flowing robes, no choirs, no stain glass windows, just you and God…dookin it out”
Do churches send you guys to some kind of special school to learn how to spout this crap?
Look Doug, you’ve used a lot of words here to say very very little.
All of us will gldaly acknowledge you are right if you will just provide us the evidence backing up your claims.
How about it?
Doug-
You’re making about as much sense as the following statement:
“The present king of France is bald”.
That’s why we don’t get it. Your propositions are empty.
You see this is the dichotomy, I want you to understand the truth about what I personally experienced, but you don’t personally know me, my words are empty, God’s Word is rich with truth, don’t wait for me to say something that will profound you….God uses people to transform people. People that are changed by understanding his word. With the helper, it all makes sense….
Read the Word my friends it’s all there.
“The present king of France is bald.”
I have been reading the Bible.
I see a lot of things that are absolutely false.
When I ask about these false things, the answer I receive doesn’t satisfy, because that same answer can then be applied to what is true, and thus make what is true seem flimsy.
We can agree on one thing, though. There IS a Truth out there. However, where we disagree is that I believe that Science is the path to that Truth, while you believe that Religion has already found it.
I’m sorry, but… I want more out of life.
so my question to you is, were you hurt by something or someone who claimed Christianity? Is that why you discard the truth of God’s Word?
If so, then forget about it. Everyone needs to seek God on his own, not on someone else’s flawed journey…
If not than you need to keep digging, I still am.
problem here is, Wikipedia was written by people. Kinda through it all together to make everyone happy, politically correct if you would
so he lost his life – so he could find it, don’t know if this is a true story or an allegory, but Bravo for him!
dougwadedesign,
I freely gave up my Christian beliefs because I could not see any reason to believe in them anymore.
Not because of any adverse personal experience with religion.
The Bible and the Christian message are supposed to be a divine message…and I could no longer believe that this is the case, therefore I am not a Christian. Simple enough, really.
Not at all. Noone hurt me with their beliefs. In fact, I had many interesting discussions with believers. However, I discard Christianity on the same basis as most other religions, but specifically for Christianity:
1) I’ve never found any convincing evidence for supernatural entities, such as God or Jesus (also, assigning them absolute properties such as omniscience and omnipotence creates its own paradoxes).
2) No convincing evidence for lots of the Bible’s natural, historical claims (in fact, lots of contrary evidence if you insist on taking the Bible literally).
3) Further study reveals plausible sources for much of the Bible, especially OT, to be myths from other religions and early polytheism. Add to this obvious motivations for bias and lies by protagonists through history, which makes God and the Bible likely to be human inventions (which is undobtedly how you yourself regard religions other than Christianity).
4) Direct Biblical contradictions (though this is a minor point if one does not insist on every word in the Bible being inerrant truth).
5) Conceptual inconsistencies, such as a god behaving extremely unethically while supposedly being a superior moral entity.
6) A lack of comprehension as to why I should worship a god such as one depicted in the Bible. And why he should care.
7) No acceptance of the existence of – or the moral justification for – several biblical concepts, such as original sin and condemnation to Hell for unbelief.
religion is a belief system, atheism has it’s own set of beliefs, everyone believes in something, everyone puts their trust in someone or some thing, the question is, does your belief system stand up in light of eternal things….
ie. your great job, marriage, kids, money, toys, house, car, hobbies, etc….
what happens when all this fails (like many are experiencing today)??
Your belief system is altered…kind of like a moving target wouldn’t you agree?
dougwadedesign,
Atheism is a position about belief in gods.
Beyond that, there is little that atheists actually have in common.
I believe in almost all of things that Christians and other theists believe in *except* for the supernatural.
Love, compassion, kindness, empathy, respect — do any of these things really require a supernatural force to establish their validity?
maybe the Christians aren’t actually writing…hehe
True, but it is sometimes hard to find resources in a pinch. I do try to give .edu sources as much as possible!
Yeah, and oddly enough it compares quite well to the Encyclopaedia Brittanica, to mention just one researched source.
As opposed to the Bible, which is a collection of poorly-translated ancient folktales, and not very accurate at all.
do tell, were you expecting something that you didnt get?
Or was your motivation to give up something?
Very interesting to me why someone would give up on the greatest person who ever walked the face of the earth (I think TIME magazine claimed this one)…
dougwadedesign,
See, that is not a helpful attitude at all.
Time Magazine also asked if “god is dead”, so I guess I shouldn’t believe everything I read in magazines?
Doug, my motivation was to believe something that was true. I enjoyed my experience with religion overall, but I could not find any way to justify my beliefs. Therefore, I could no longer call myself a Christian. You’re making this much more difficult than it should be.
Even if someone like Jesus existed, and was the greatest person to have ever lived via moral teachings, this would not help establish whether or not he was a supernatural being.
I had not considered whether the claims were true, and now that I have, I cannot establish that they are. Blind faith is not enough for me, because I cannot determine whether I should follow Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism or Christianity if faith is my only guide.
Very interesting post tonight, thanks for responding, remember the claims that Christ made Himself, either He was God or He was an insane lunatic…
I came to understand that He was God.
Doug,
No problem – I enjoy these discussions, and moreover, I think they are necessary. If we can’t talk about religion, we can’t coexist.
I have heard of C.S. Lewis’ “Lord, Liar, Lunatic”. It seems like you are making a similar claim?
I have problems with this because there are a lot of different things that could have happened, as I see it.
There could have someone like Jesus who was a moral or religious teacher whose doings were exaggerated after his death — so he could’ve been not a lunatic or a liar, but perhaps his following inflated the stories of his life and works into what we know now.
However, I don’t know for sure exactly what happened. I doubt that it happened exactly the way it says in the Bible because first, even the Bible isn’t very clear on that (it’s contradictory in many places), and many of Jesus’s claims are a bit dubious (such as, saying he’d be back in this generation).
There are many other things which have made me decide that I cannot hold Christian beliefs, but for the sake of brevity I’ll discuss those some other time, and just stick to Jesus. Thanks for the discussion so far!
No- That is NOT what LOGOS means in Greek.
The Logos in the underlying order or reason that unites the change in the universe.
Language is a separate concept from Logos.
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/GREECE/HERAC.HTM
I’m sorry, but you don’t have the right to tell me I am wrong. You don’t know that with any semblance of certainty, nor do you have evidence to prove it.
@jt: Why is it easier to hypothesize about black holes, quantum physics and high minded science than to believe in a supreme creator? – easy one to answer – those hypotheses have proof, whereas religion has none.
Look, jtcrawford, it is easy to discuss black holes because they can be detected by radiation gathered by telescopes. There is no way at all of verifying or falsifying the existence of a supreme creator, so the concept itself is utterly meaningless.
Recently I added to my blog, “Interlingua multilingue,” an article about a binary system of black holes in a galaxy far, far away. Their mass and orbits could be calculated through observing the changing colors of the matter that was being sucked into them.
There is less than a light year’s distance between them, and they will eventually collide and create all sorts of havoc among the stars that are close to them. This is much more awesome than your imaginary god!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
OK, let’s put faith aside for a moment. I am willing.
Explain creation? Let’s look at anything…a rock, human, universe, or star. Where did it all come from?
Which aspect of creation? How the earth formed? (There are perfectly good theories with tons of evidence behind them for that). How life arose (again evolution explains a ton for the variety of life and scientists are working on abiogenesis as we speak). How matter and energy formed in general– physicists are working on that.
Here’s my point: science may explain a ton about the natural world but will not be able to disprove the existence of god (as god is a metaphysical (meaning beyond physical) being). Hence the metaphysical is beyond the scope of science.
But even is the god of philosophers can’t be disproven, this, in no way tells us ANYTHING about the nature of god, let alone that he is the biblegod.
Yea, and after Christianity was made ‘king’ there was persecution of pagans, witches, heathens (Muslims), Jews, and a whole lot more. So much for people who are supposed to be tolerant of others. More damage has been done by Christians to other religious sects that by any other religion in this world. That is a great representation of Christianity.
Today, Right Wing Christians want to enforce their morals and values on those who are not of their little group. Thus we have Amazon.com ‘ranking’ certain books, amazingly mostly books of alternative lifestyles, because or pressure from certain people. We can all guess who those certain people all.
Then we have the Christian philosophy that God will take care of us so they go out and screw up the environment because ‘God will take care of us’. What if there really isn’t a God? Like on Christian said to me while trying to convert me, ‘If there is a God and you don’t believe in Him, you will go to hell’. Well, if there isn’t a God and the Christians, who are all set on God taking care of else, choose not to help in cleaning up the environment, then we are all screwed.
The fact of the matter is, and this is where some Atheist get upset, that Christians in the U.S. are attempting to make public policy based upon their religion. That is called a theocracy and it means that others freedom of religion has be taken away. This country was not founded on a theocracy; it was founded upon freedom of religion. That means that I can practice my religion, or lack of, and you can practice yours without fear of retaliation.
Yesterday, a coworker asked if I had a nice Easter. Before I realized who I was talking to, I said that I don’t celebrate Easter. Now I live in fear of being fired because of that one slip and them knowing that I am not one of them. That should not occur. I should not have to live in fear of being an Atheist. But that is what is happening in society today because of the pressure that Right Wing Christians are putting on society to conform to their way of thinking. It is also because of the negative presentation of Atheist, saying that we are all evil, lack morals, etc. That is so far from the truth. The more the government ‘gives in’ to the Right Wing Christian groups, the stronger they get and the more fearful minority religions become. No religion should have so much power that they can instill their beliefs, values, and morals in public policy but that is what is happening today with the Right Wing Christians.
LRA maybe we can start another post. this one is getting pretty difficult to navigate.
Since you asked. I think we have to consider matter first. Where did it come from. I haven’t heard any plausible theories. Nothing else could be created without it.
The fact that there are pieces that Science doesn’t now reach and I believe never will is evidence of a higher power. There was a maker of all matter. But before we bring god into this discussion, lets exhaust all other possibilities.
What are the possibilities? Let’s try to get to the root of it all.
“The fact that there are pieces that Science doesn’t now reach and I believe never will is evidence of a higher power”
Ugh, no it’s not, it’s evidence that there are pieces that Science doesn’t now reach. What is the basis of your belief that it never will?
It’s like the “six constants of the Universe” that are frequently analogized as finely-tuned dials, if any of them were even slightly different, life as we know it would not be possible… this is frequently cited as proof of God. But what if we discover that they can’t be any other way? Like the circumference of a circle can’t be other than pi-R-squared. Then it’s not like six dials, but one giant knob that can’t turn.
We can’t even conceive of what the possibilities are. That is what “we don’t know how matter is created” means. Just because a question is unanswered does not mean it will never be answered.
Saying “I can’t explain this, therefore it must be supernatural” is exactly the same thing as saying “I can’t explain this, therefore I can explain it”. It is not a real answer.
trj,
You left out one important fact, the big difference between what a Christ-follower believes and all the major world religions is quite eye opening:
Christ Followers know that Jesus is the only salvation, the only way to heaven, the only sacrifice, not of yourself, gift of God so that no man can boast
ALL other world religions (buddhism, hinduism, Islam, judaism, primitive religion) teach that you yourself have to be good enough, work hard enough and deserve heaven
I would group Christ with other world religions.
As far as your discovery of the Bible, I am not denying that you have studied, just hope that you haven’t given up, if you are like me, you wont truly rest until you discover Him for yourself.
wouldn’t that is
Well, that’s not entirely true, since the various Christian denominations can’t agree on whether you are saved by your deeds or your faith.
Some of us believe denominationalism is sin, including myself.
Some of us believe denominationalism is sin, including myself.
They can’t both be right, so which one is it?
Once again, dougwadadesign, or whatever the fuck your name is, your statement that “Jesus is the only salvation, the only way to heaven, the only sacrifice, not of yourself, gift of God so that no man can boast” is incoherent nonsense. Were it not so well known to our culture, it would be immediately dismissed as a manifestion of delusional psychosis.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
@elemenope
It’s Faith and deeds, Faith saves you, deeds backs it up….
ever try to learn something from a book and not try it for yourself?
I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints (Billy Joel?).
;)
Pity it took them 1800 years from the death of Jesus to realize this society. Also, it seems they didn’t really care for women being wholly part of the democratic society, not to mention slaves.
(Which I suppose was well in accordance with biblical doctrine.)
Also, interesting that a lot of other societies became democratic in the following years without having to rely on Christian/deist founders.
Hello? Deists were NOT inspired by the bible!
http://etext.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv1-77
elemenope, I might be off-base on this one (btw, I love your icon-House is my favorite show)
But is the Unity Church the same as the Unitarians?
if so, they believed that “God was very real and something we call Life” you are right that they denied a god-head, but the founding fathers had a lot of diversity, not all believed the same, but thats what makes this nation great, this discussion tonight proves that…free to believe and free to exercise our beliefs, hopefully this never changes…
Ah, Dougwadedesign,
John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were not Deists. They were Atheists.
You must remember that back then, as it is still, saying that you did not believe in God was considered a big sin. People were harassed, put in jail, punished, and would lose their jobs if people found out that they were Atheists. Thus, people like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin had to write in such a manner as to not flagrantly expose the fact that they did not believe in God.
-Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
“I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.”
“Lighthouses are more helpful then churches.”
-John Adams, U.S. President, Founding Father of the United States
“Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?”
“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”
“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.”
Thomas Jefferson, Founding Father and President
“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.”
“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.”
Simple response: if your imaginary sky friend wants me and the other six billion folks to know him, he needs to be a bit more convincing than allegedly speaking through first century goatherders.
There are so many ways a god could accomplish this. One of the best, in my opinion, would have been for Jesus-the-Perfect-God-Man-Trinity-Fraction to have stuck around instead of blasting off through the stratosphere. We could use a guy like that in Darfur or Washington.
You use WOMEN BEING ABUSED as your example?!?!? Have you actually READ the old testament???
:(
“you have never had to fight for a cause that is greater than yourself, something that goes beyond mans reason or intellect?”
If its beyond your reason or intellect, why are you fighting about it/for it?
The examples you give are false.
You’re willing to die for a bloody fairy tale?
I understand. I knew it would be a difficult request.
Well, I hope you are “only” willing to die for your beliefs, not to kill for them.
Horrific car crashes change peoples lives everyday. That does not mean I’m going to start worshiping them.
these things don’t require it, they just drastically enhance them…myself, I never knew how to truly love, respect or forgive until I met the ONE.
Love, compassion, kindness, empathy, respect + Christ = Awesome marriage and great Christian sex!!
Yeahaw!
dougwadedesign,
If that genuinely helps you, and you can take it by faith, then I guess that works well enough for you.
However, it is not good enough for me. I don’t criticize your choices, but I need more before I could even consider returning to Christianity.
teleprompter:
ask and you shall receive, seek and you will find, knock and the door opens…don’t quit searching my friend.
“…great Christian sex!!”
What….the hell….is this?
Does this involve screaming out bible verses at the height of passion?
Some kind of cross related S&M scene?
On second thought – forget I asked.
absolutely, not for a fairy tale though. I would die for you. if I was asked to do so.
You’d die for me if someone asked you to. Right. And you have a bridge you’d like to sell me? Maybe some snake-oil that will cure rheumatoid arthritis?
Yes they were, they believed in One God, they believed in theism (the God head 3 in one) and many other ancient Christian beliefs….the Bible WAS their inspiration, not all of the founding fathers were deists though, Thomas Jefferson for instance was a Christ-follower….
The constitution is it is read proves that the Bible had everything to do with this countries laws and practices….this cannot be disputed….unless you are attempting to erase history.
Both John Adams and John Quincy Adams were Unitarians, which means they emphatically denied the godhead.
Thomas Jefferson was even further removed from theism. His “edit” of the Bible, called the Jefferson Bible, removes *all* mention of miracles and resurrection.
The Constitution (and now you’re drifting into my area of scholastic expertise) neither mentions the Bible nor God, nor pulls any ideas from Biblical text whatsoever.
try to understand that I didn’t grow up in a Christian home, I grew up without the truth in my life, divorce, pain, separated from God…lost, lonely, you get the picture, why would I choose to go backwards?
Every day that I live, I discover new truth, God’s love in people, something I never experienced before. Biggest thing, FORGIVENESS…
CHANGED MY LIFE. NUFF SAID
“CHANGED MY LIFE. NUFF SAID”
No, it really doesn’t say much at all, in my view.
All sorts of things change people’s lives for the better. Sugar pills change a sickly person’s outlook…i.e..placebo effect. For me, that is not “NUFF” evidence to believe that there is anything more than the believer’s own will at work. Also, somewhere there is an Arab who’s had women problems, but overcome them; who’s gone through “pain”, but overcome that pain; who sees “God’s love in people”, etc…..but who attributes it all to the “Almighty Allah”. The Muslim surely believes it is “Allah” who has intervened, but the Atheist AND the Christian know better, don’t they?
I was referring to present day, you need to read the scripture in context..for instance, killing pregnant women and babies through abortion is still murder.
War is different.
In what sense is war different such that when babies are blown to pieces in war, no problem, whereas without the war it is a grave offense?
RE:No- God’s directives are atrocious!!!! They are horrible!!! Civilized countries follow the Geneva Convention!!! Murdering pregnant women and children is NOT ok!!!! Raping women and forcing young virginal girls into forced marriage is NOT ok!!!!
I don’t understand what you are referring to here, is this OLD or new Testament? They are different you know.
Example: Christ came to abolish the law, He came to bring freedom. The Law was adhered to by the scribes for instance… to to stone a woman to death if she was caught in adultery, Jesus forgave the woman that was accused of adultery and made fools of the Pharisees….
Example: Christ came to abolish the law, He came to bring freedom. The Law was adhered to by the scribes for instance… to to stone a woman to death if she was caught in adultery, Jesus forgave the woman that was accused of adultery and made fools of the Pharisees….
I see now. That must be why he said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
Whoops.
OH- so when David said that God was the same yesterday, today, and forever in the Psalms, he was lying?
after all, what could be better than uncountable trillions of years of nothing but church? doesn’t that sound fun?
I think you should ask the Palestinians why they throw their children in front of US military soldiers, with guns, to be slaughtered…
Uh, what?
you missed that one, it’s true, dying I guess and taking an infidel with you, gets you into heaven and many virgins….
Uh, no. Methinks you are very confused here.
LRA:
I’ll leave you with this one, I have read the Bible, for over 20 years now, cover to cover, forwards and backwards, many hours of study with local theologians and pastors, small group studies and such, but that doesn’t mean anything, what I really accept is that without God’s Spirit living in me, they are just words on a page..so in order for us to have a conversation that doesn’t turn into an argument, we both need to have accepted God’s Word as infallible and living and applicable for today.
On little kids and babies, What if me as a father does something really bad, kills somebody? Do you think my kids will suffer because of my actions? Of course they would, not by their actions but because we were related. Sins of the fathers are passed down to their kids (paraphrased),
…back in the day, God was offended when a people would worship false Gods and sacrifice their children to idols, he instructed others to war against them, God is not just a loving God, He is a Holy and just God, He is also a jealous God and will have no other Gods before him….this was the case many times in war…
Sorry, but comparing you as a father (limited) to God as a father (unlimited) does not cut it.
Let me ask you something. Would YOU send your own child to an eternal torture?
If the answer is yes, then you are SICK.
If the answer is no, then YOU have better morals than GOD.
Doug, I’ve read just about enough of you.
You have a serious leak in your think tank, and nothing anyone here is ever going to say will fix it for you.
You profess the loving-God of Christianity, but see no conflict in the murder of children in conflicts that have nothing to do with survival and everything to do with geopolitik.
You claim abortion is wrong, but war is righteous and just.
You need to grow up, read your holy book, and come to the realization that either your values are in utter conflict with most available interpretations, or that your holy book can be used to justify anything.
Cognitive dissonance: You haz it.
First let me say I grieved as well for all of the families that lost loved ones on 911.
But don’t believe for one minute that Bin-Laden would have stopped there if our response was “No” to War, if we would have organized negotiations, tried to talk through our differences and come to some civil agreement with the Al-queda, we would all be dead right now or at least be a Muslim controlled state. Good bye freedom, hello oppression.
There is and always will be a time and a place for war, be it far from me to question the whys and whos involved. Ultimately war could be included in the result of sin and the fall of man and all humankind. With sin, there are always consequences….
Not pretty, I agree, but necessary. If a bully comes up to you in school, ridicules you, pushes you and pulls a knife on you, to you attempt to reason with him first? maybe, if that doesnt work, do you:
1. Run for your life
2. Fight back
Which one is right? which answer appeals to very human nature.
I don’t condone killing anyone, I do believe in justice and mercy, I do see the hurt in peoples eyes that have lost someone they love, this human experience doesn’t provide every answer to every question…..
All I am trying to say is, if someone wants to war with me, I will not back down. If it means protecting my family and the people in this country that I love (Atheists included), I will go to war…
Wil there be casualties, probably so, when there is war and fighting, everyone suffers, it cannot be avoided.
Does God care if people die? Of course He does, that why He sent his son, so nobody else has to die and suffer eternal death apart from him…He wants us to choose life, he says choose life, or choose death, choose blessing or choose cursing…no in-betweens here.
By the way, I believe that babies and children go to heaven, no need to baptize, which is where God wants them.
My whole point is that the war that GOD commanded MOSES and the ISRAELITES to conduct was UTTERLY DISGUSTING!
GOD commanded the deaths of innocent civilians. Do you call that “good” war practice?
No matter what the extremists have done (to me PERSONALLY) I would NEVER follow a command (even from GOD) to rip open pregnant women’s bellies, to kill children, to rape women, or to force people into slavery. NO I am BETTER than that (which makes me better than the biblegod).
Except that the point doesn’t remain. All the stunt with the adulterer did was demonstrate that no human was competent to execute the law; that was the thrust of his point “he who is without sin…(i.e. nobody)”. The law itself still exists, still applies. Hence the “I have not come to abolish the law…”
And that law, as executed throughout history, ancient and modern, seems to make an arbitrary distinction between killing women and children in peacetime (bad) and killing women and children in war (just peachy, sometimes even encouraged).
Any law which excuses murder of non-combatants is faulty. Any law which encourages it is monstrous.
Well I am 100% on scripture (as I was a christian for many years).
You can’t have it both ways. Either God is the same (yesterday, today, and forever) and he commanded the Israelites to do horrible things (which makes him evil) or God is wishy-washy– first commanding them to do horrible things and then growing a conscience (which would mean God is not perfect).
You pick.
God commanded the Israelite’s to war against eveil, that doesnt make God evil, and as much as you want to believe you do not know the scriptures 100%, only God can know that. If you believe this, than you are not atheist, you are with the Unity church.
I have read the bible cover to cover. Can you say the same? I have taken courses in which I studied both the OT and the NT, can you say the same?
So God thinks little kids and babies are evil? How about live stock? Are they evil?
Interesting.
No- you are bending the scriptures to fit your defense (did you NOT read Numbers 31?)– Your scriptures that YOU said were so straightforward that a child could read them.
Just a refresher–
Numbers 31:17 “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.”
God is directly commanding the murder of little boys and the forced marriage of virgin girls.
I don’t see atheists up in arms about women being killed by abortion….
Quite the contrary, the movement for the legalization and medicalization of abortion was in large part *because* the procedure being done in a back-alley with a coat-hanger killed many women. It is unbelievably rare for a woman to die during an abortion procedure today, mainly due to its being moved out of the alley and into a sterile operating theatre.
…let alone their dead babies being slaughtered during a late term procedure…
It turns on whether a fetus is a human being, which is a whole different conversation. But while we’re on the subject, it is worth pointing out that Jews and Christians for *most* of their history considered a fetus to be not a human being until fairly late in the pregnancy. The vast majority of abortions today are early term abortions; up until about the late 19th century you would have been hard-pressed to find any religious figure find such early-term abortions a big deal, much less murder.
A false prophet is nothing more than a profit that you do not like. A “true” prophet, quite simply, is one that you do like.
There are no reliable criteria for distinguishing “true” from “false” prophets, so these very concepts are meaningless.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
no false “profit” is right if you are referring to brother Benny
Whoops! I meant to write “false prophet,” of course, instead of “false profit.”
I also did not realize that I had uploaded this post before I deleted the second copy of my signature.
I wish this system allowed us to delete comments and rewrite them and eliminate the need for uploading posts with errata.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
a false prophet in the Bible was described as someone who was not 100% in his prophesies…(paraphrased)
also, that’s why the major and minor prophets all point to (old testament) prophesies that were fulfilled in the new testament…including Christ.
call me crazy, please…they called Christ a whack job, I would be so honored…
Look, dougwadedesign, you say that false prophets in the Bible are described as as prophets who were not 100% accurate in their prophecies.
Statements by most prophets are vague and can be interpreted more than one way (any good prophet worth his salt, like any other oracle, tries to equivocate effectively to cover all possible bases so that ultimately they can appear to be right).
This greatly complicates the problem of determining whether they are “true” or “false” and makes the problem of evaluating them for truth or falsity simply a matter of interpretation driven by taste.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
But is the Unity Church the same as the Unitarians?
Nope, totally different.
And this is why we come here and talk about stuff we dont all have a belief in. To learn, or if nothing else have our minds opened.
Harleigh, these are not my writings, it’s from the book of John, and I don’t really care to make the grade with this, just expressing His truth,
YOU don’t have to believe it, beautiful thing here is…
it doesn’t make it any less true….
LOL WUT. It was a parable, actually. And you seem to have missed the point of it entirely. Coram Deo claims that God’s justice is fulfilled by the death of Christ. I claim that this is absurd.
If it is within a man’s power to forgive a criminal penalty (with e.g. a presidential pardon), he may do so at his leisure, limited only by his discretion. Similarly, if it is within God’s power to forgive sin, he may do so freely, and Christ’s death is not necessary.
On the other hand, if it is not within a man’s power to forgive a criminal penalty (as with my hypothetical judge), nothing else he can offer will satisfy the penalty, except the punishment of the guilty or forgiveness from someone who does have that power. In the case above, the murderer will face life in prison, regardless of the judge’s actions, unless either of them can convince the governor to pardon the offender. So if God cannot forgive sin without violating His holy nature, then Christ’s death is not sufficient; we must still pay for our actions.
Either way, the point is that, whatever Christ’s death did accomplish, it did not and could not facilitate the forgiveness of sins. (The fact that Christ was forgiving sins left and right, before his death, should be evidence enough of that!)
I hear you Q-I-T,
But, at least my side of the divide has evidence. I can actually point people to the mechanism of oxytocin. In addition, I can conduct ablation studies that show that a disruption in the expression of the oxytocin gene disrupts bonding and mating behaviors. What have the “God is Love” camp got?
What have the “God is Love” camp got?
Dopamine.
Of course, dopamine is somewhat regulated (downstream) by oxytocin…
;)
Yes. The other side has at best dubious theory or hypothesis.
Further, there are a number of different brain processes that are colloquially or religiously identified as love. Since love is a term covering many differentiated, complex biological systems, why should one suppose these things exist non-anthropomorphically? And I agree with you, where are the great Christian scholars who are feathering out the different biological pathways of bonding, sacrifice, interactive excitement, religious ecstasy, etc?
Also, as you have shown in many threads, the other side is plagued by anti-evidence. The scripture, ‘God is love (agape)’ sits in sharp contradistinction to many of the supposed acts of God in other parts of the Bible.
VIOLA! My righteous evidence!!!!
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article6078485.ece
:)
oopsie! I meant VOILA! not a stringed instrument… dang typos!
Maybe you could use a viola to play a little sting just before shouting Voila?
Then Alex Guggenheim is totally justified in treating you people the same way, since he assumes your position in claiming that your ilk spouts nothing but “illogical inanities”.
So why decry his verbal assaults? Well, unless you never have, then forget that question.
What the frak are you talking about?
Nevermind, I take it that you didn’t take offense at Alex’s comments and never hypocritically acted hoity-toity about them.
Good on ya then, consistent.
And a crappy Easter to you, ericbroze!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
You make some very interesting arguments about the existence of Jesus by comparing him with the existence of people like Dark Vader. May the force be with you!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
What you say may be true, Question-I-thority, but the things the religious and nonreligious disagree about are often fought over in things like autos-da-fe and religious wars.
In one of his satires, Jonathan Swift compared this to a war over whether it was right to crack open an egg from the small end or the big end.
I myself believe that both positions are wrong. It is obviously best to crack eggs open in the middle!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Question-I-thority, you are absolutely right!
Here’s the funny thing, most everyone everywhere has something in common. The biggest problem is that few are willing to take the time to see it.
I wonder why that is? Because we have something within us, some gene, defining us in such a way that we feel the need for self-preservation within what we deem our “clan”? Or is it a combination of that and learned behavior just as religion is a learned behavior.
I read an article recently about how people take the religion of their parents, but in the cases where the parents were open to other religions, taught exploration and learning and acceptance in the household, that the children were more likely to be open to new experiences. I myself was raised this way, and while I know my parents would have liked for me to be of their faith, they also always told me that only I know what I am comfortable with and I should embrace it.
That’s why I love to read and listen to other people’s perspectives. People who believe things in a different way than we do, or things that we do not believe at all, are sometimes excellent mirror’s for ourselves. They show us the things that sometimes we could not see on our own!
True – there are many myths and there still are, but only one truth, and the big difference in this case is that it is not myth but truth.
In the myths none of these people has ever died for others, whereas Jesus died for us and not Himself. He didn’t have to put Himself through all that torture, He did it for you and me and everyone.
We can never explain everything about the Bible because God has revealed only what is necessary and only what we can comprehend. It is all about having a relationship with God and knowing Him through His word.
It is not about academic knowledge but about relationship and that can only come about through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is a walk of faith, it is about the heart and not just head knowledge.
We can have ‘head’ knowledge through years of theological study, but still not have a relationship with God and that is what matters.
Blessings
You are essentially wrong on your assumptions about “The Dead sea scrolls”.
They were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. And they were more likely written by a religious sect called the ‘Essenes’, a group which is thought to have stemmed from other ancient Jewish religious sects.
Uh, look, annabellasepiphanies, Aramaic is not the oldest language that there is. It is just another Semitic language in a family that also includes Arabic and Hebrew.
We don’t know when language first emerged or whether it emerged once or several times. The best guess seems to be that it emerged about 100,000 years ago. The Semitic family emerged much more recently than that.
Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing what the original languages we spoke were like. Written records documenting them were not available when they first emerged. We didn’t learn to write until tens of thousands of years later.
You are completely correct, however, in your remarks about the difficulties of producing accurate modern translations of ancient texts.
I myself know nothing about the lost sea scrolls, but I think it would be rather hard to establish their authorship, if only because of their age.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
As far as I know the Dead Sea Scrolls were written after Jesus’ ascension – I need to check this out though. I cannot recollect Scripture ever mentioning that Jesus wrote anything, except something in the sand once.
The Bible orginates from oral tradition and only later was it written down.
I agree translation is very difficult because other languages do not have words to associate with some of the early writings, hence various translations. A good scholar though would use a few translations, along with dictionaries and historical commentaries. The main thing though is an ear for the illuminating of Scripture by the Holy Spirit, after all God intends His word to be understood otherwise how can we follow it?
There was indeed some differences in the early Church. specific to Lower Egypt, there were the Gnostics. There is a good amount of evidence that their writings are older and less reliable than the earlier letters.
If we are really going to research the possibility that God does or does not exist then I propose we hold our beliefs to the side so we can reason from the beginning.
Let’s begin with creation and how we or anything for the “matter” (pun intended) got here. Where did the first Atom come from…I know it’s not the smallest particle but just for illustrative purposes.
I suggest we really take these concepts to the nth degree together. No sarcasim just unadulterated quest for truth.
I am willing to place my beliefs on the line here. At this point, I am a Christian. I do believe there is a God and in the inerrant truth of scripture. I believe in the Holy Trinity and in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ God’s only Son.
I think we need some boundaries to keep the discussion on topic and alive:
1. Engaged civil discussion only. No need to be offensive. Let’s consider this a friendly discussion to search for the root cause of our beginning and man’s end.
2. Evidence: we will all judge the quality of our evidence and the argument being proposed. Sources can be scholarly, historical or personal accounts. Your argument will likely need to be more compelling as it moves through the three options. Personal accounts are best if supported in some way. Believable and honest sources. We need not lie or embellish the evidence or personal accounts. If there is a God, and He created the universe he will not need our stacking the deck to show himself.
3. One topic at a time. Let’s beat the horse to death but just one at a time. Too many topics are hard on my small mind. Plus, it gives us laser like focus on the issue at hand.
4. New location. http://wildtruth.wordpress.com Brand new blog without any extra stuff…previous posts etc.
So that’s it! Let’s find the truth together.
Cheers
My apologies- I should have been more specific- portions of “The Lost/Dead Sea Scrolls” is what I should have said. Still, Jesus supposedly had a hand in the writing- and he did speak Aramaic.
@anna: let me make one thing clear; I do believe in “God”, or a higher power. I DO NOT buy into organized religion. I have experienced “miracles”, and ethereal enigmas – you are just as deluded as any of our christian friends, or have been sneaking some of those “special” mushrooms, or both.
Letss make this quite clear:
1. There is no god or higher power.
2. There are no miracles.
3. ethereal enigmas – wtf?
Most biblical scholars believe that the ‘sin’ of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitality.
” I’m not going to go pulling out my Bible to give exact quotes for people who don’t want to see the truth anyway. ”
Who doesnt want to see the truth, someone who wont back up their claims with a well thought out argument or folks who don’t believe because they have not seen enough evidence.
Out of curiosity where do your beliefs comes from are they based on the christian concept of god.
Because I would like to know what is it, exactly that you base your conclusions about spirituality on.
Annabella, Thanks for the reply. I hope you are still following. I think we can reason through your concerns together.
1. In Genesis 19:24 Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed. You are right, it was not for homosexual acts alone but rather for the sinful and deviant nature of the people who lived there. The Greeks called this area “Asphaltites” we have heard it called the Salt Sea. Nothing grows or lives there even today. Your point is well taken. Many Christians, mean well but, use scripture for their own points. They pluck from a letter or book a few lines that fit their cause and launch them like arrows. This is not God, but man’s own ineptness and judgement. It’s a truth in our makeup. We long to be superior to others in morality, knowledge and possessions. God’s justice is even and fair. We will all one day account for our actions and our treatment of others. But, is it possible that we reject the truth, by the actions of some? You are not beholden to participate in this type of personal practice. You may be a Christian anywhere. Being put off by the actions of others lead Egypt into a period of Monasticism. In a prolonged monastic life we lose the fellowship of other believers. “No man is an island.” There are those who you can connect with.
2. Someone mentioned hermeneutics earlier. It’s not that hard to understand that we need to take any reading into context. Imagine finding a love letter between two lovers. You wouldn’t clearly understand the meaning without detail. You could get the basics, the essence. If you then knew the lovers in a casual way you would gain a little more. You might understand at a deeper level. If the letter was written to you, well then you understand at the deepest level. The same is true with the Bible and its books. We can get the essence by reading. When we consider who the letter is between, well it’s meaning is enriched. If we understand the culture and the politics of the day…it’s even deeper. Yes, people do get off track. If you dig deeper, it becomes clearer and more relevant.
It’s true the Bible is full of commandments and rules about cleanliness. Let’s not forget, this is WAY before science got there. The preparation for Passover…well the Israelites did Spring cleaning. This was directed from a loving and kind God. His care was being offered before we understood the reason behind it. As for some of the laws in Leviticus…I don’t know the why. Maybe science doesn’t either. I could speculate, but I won’t.
3. I would argue that Adam and Eve were here only to procreate. “And the Lord God said, it is not good that man should be alone” (Gen 2:18). It has become more practical for a man to have one wife. I can’t find the reference you are making. I would suspect it was a practical matter at some point. I am not sure. As for who decides what is moral. God is the moral law giver. Sex was always meant to be enjoyable. Take a read in the Song of Solomon.
4. Yes again you are pointing to a human weakness. We must not be so weak as to not recognize sin. Sin is real and can be called for what it is. Regardless of its nature, sin is sin. We are told to first approach the brother or sister in private and show them their error. Next we take another brother and explain the error. The last resort is to take this to the open congregation. It’s how we learn. Those who recognize can help us by guiding us and correcting our course. Well that’s the goal.
In many congregations there is back biting and ruthless behavior. It’s not the design of God but the shortcomings of man.
I appreciate your openness. It is good to hear that you believe in God. You are less enthusiastic about the Church. I think you can find a group that cares for you and treats you as a sister. Just remember wherever you go there will be those that disappoint and reject you. That won’t change the nature of God or his care for you.
Blessings,
JT
annabella,
to respond to #3, I believe that God made one man for one woman, like he did adam for eve. to have multiple marriages just complicates things, you can see how destructive this is in third world cultures and how men treat women, like they are slaves, trash, not worthy of any respect..I think that a faithful man married to a faithful wife is God’s design….as far as the way things were practiced in eastern cultures in those days (OT) I believe that the people of the day were in the dark, God wasn’t finished revealing himself until he made the ultimate reveal in His Son Jesus.
The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.
1 Corinthians 7:3-5
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
Ephesians 5:24-26
In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
Ephesians 5:27-29
Anyone who thinks its ok to have multiple wives and uses the scriptures to justify his actions is just looking for a license to sin….
Uh, Olaf, we invaded Iraq not to fight the Muslims but to control our access to their oil deposits while dictating prices to them as much as possible. This war has merely been an attempted act of theft on our part.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Uh, the remarks about the mass murder of the Timorese by the Indonesians I really meant to direct to Doug.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
But Rhode Island can never take on Texas!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
can you quote that?
I don’t know how you got the notion that Jesus was said to have a hand in them. But serious scholars would disagree with you on this.
As far as I am aware the Dead Sea Scrolls were written after Jesus’ ascension – I need to check this out though. I cannot recollect Scripture ever mentioning that Jesus wrote anything, except something in the sand once.
The Bible orginates from oral tradition and only later was it written down.
I agree translation is very difficult because other languages do not have words to associate with some of the early writings, hence various translations. A good scholar though would use a few translations, along with dictionaries and historical commentaries. The main thing though is an ear for the illuminating of Scripture by the Holy Spirit, after all God intends His word to be understood otherwise how can we follow it?
“Uh, No. Looks like you DIDN’T get my point. When I said “serious” I meant the ones who are generally agreed with by people who study the matter.”
I’m having a hard time believing that you can be this obtuse on this matter(and others).
Miguel, just because people don’t f%cking agree with a “scholar” doesn’t mean that said scholar is not a serious one. ‘Get it? I know what *you* mean, above—however, the angle I’m taking is a DIFFERENT one. Previously, you use the adjective “serious”, as in, “serious scholar”, yada, yada. Again, I’m NOT talking about how others perceive scholars; I’m talking about how they perceive THEMSELVES. There are two ways to approach the matter. Lose your ‘black-n-white’ mentality for two seconds, and you might be able to entertain someone else’s position for a change. ‘Give it a try?
“Well you responded to my question. I wasn’t talking about how scholars perceive themselves – why should anyone talk about this anyway, seems irrelevant – I was talking about how they were perceived.”
Then you should clarify that point, instead of simply saying all “serious scholars”, etc., etc.. In discussions like these, to do so, from your opponent’s standpoint, it may look as though you are simply labeling those who agree with your position “serious”, and those who disagree, NOT “serious”. ‘Get it?
you still blather on….
“Well, ofcourse boom can claim to take them seriously even if they go against conventional beliefs without convincing evidence.”
Dolt—whether “boom” takes them “seriously”, or not—that fact does NOT mean they are not serious about what they do. I cannot make it any clearer. There are two ways to look at it.
Who the hell is Brother Benny?
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
If one takes the Sermon on the Mount and what it says about riches seriously then Benny Hinn is certainly a ‘false profit’ (pun intended).
Harleigh-
Benny Hinn is a tele-evangelist. He claims to heal people and takes their money. A false “profit” indeed!
Since you are now an atheist, HappySpider, I find it hard to understand that you can feel so sentimental about Catholic teachings about sin and redemption.
They make sin completely trivial and meaningless if it can be wiped away in deathbed confessions.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
I’ve told my wife and some of the family that I’d rather just get gifts and celebrate my birthday than any other holiday. My birthday has more meaning to me.
Maybe he can tell it to Jesus. After all, this deity is supposed to hear all your aches and cares, right?
I’d be happier with this idea if it actually led to them coming up with better reasons. Alas, such rarely seems to be the case.
Shorter ucbones:
“No–those were all false religions. Mine’s the only TRUE one!”
Advice, uc: Look up Odin, Horus, and Adonis to start with.
How do you know it is truth? Because Christian scholars say that the Bible is authentic? Isn’t that a little biased.
And how was that authenticity proven? And why were other ‘books’ of the Bible not put into the Bible when their authenticity was also proven.
You cannot have people how have something to gain from the Bible being ‘authentic’ declare it authentic. If the Christian scholars said that the Bible was not authentic, they would be out of a job. Thus, they are biased.
Authenticity of the Bible must be proven by a non-Christian but then we run into this idea of the non-Christian being biased.
In the end, then, there is no real way to prove the authenticity of the Bible.
What can be proven is that there were many religions that have the same stories presented in the Bible. Not just the story of Jesus either. The Noah’s Ark story is similar to another myth known to have existed prior to the birth of Jesus. If you do your research you will find other stories that were already being told prior to the birth of Jesus that are represented in the Bible. To me, the Bible is just a compendium of myths from before Jesus put into a story about one person and one God and pushed off upon the ignorant people as a religion.
Well said!
Except that the LOGOS was a GREEK philosophical (metaphysical) notion that the Christians copied and molded onto Jesus. In other words, the Gospel of John ain’t all that original.
“There are only two cases here: one that He was a crazy man, a mad prophet, and two, that He was in fact God, the creator of everything, who chose to save you.”
Or three, that he didn’t exist at all and the whole story is a myth.
Really now, let’s think about this. Is it rational to believe that a man can be born of a virgin? Is it rational that the Earth could be developed in only seven days? Is it rational that the people in the Bible would write that the Earth is flat when it is really round? Is it rational that a great deity would destroy that which he made only to have it repopulated with the same problems? Consider that last part: If God is all seeing, why didn’t He see that even though he destroyed all the people but Noah the people who repopulate the Earth would be just as bad? That just doesn’t make sense.
You know what is rational to me? Osiris, a mythological story told prior to the development of Christianity, was supposedly born of a virgin. He was called the savior of the people. He was later killed and resurrected threes after death. He had prophets and others that followed him and support him. Hmmm, that story sounds so familiar, doesn’t it? Oh, yeah, that the same story that is being told about Jesus. Could it be that the story of Jesus was based on the myth of Osiris? Sounds rational to me.
The proof of Jesus resurrection lies all around you. Millions of testimonies and Christians and a faith that has stood through centuries.
So I should eat garbage? After all, millions of seagulls can’t be wrong either, right?
Consider that Islam has been around for less than a millenium, and yet also has millions of adherents.
Buddhism has been around longer, and also claims millions of souls.
So having been around a while, and having lots of people praying to its fetishes is no guarantee of truth.
couldnt have worded this better, thx ucbones
another good topic to research: grace vs. the law, how could there be both?
Jesus displayed both law and grace. another mystery.
It’s not a mystery. Human judges are capable of tempering justice with mercy. They do it all the time. Maybe you should read Shakespeare’s Merchant of Venice.
RE: Pascals wager: its all coming from the same source (not even read Pascal), from this side, I see a lot of common rhetoric with the atheists….everyone has a source, nobody is original, nothing new under the sun, all vanity of vanities…
Thanks!
It is not only John that talks about Jesus being God. The Bible is full of Scripture confirming this. Jesus Himself revealed this to John in Revelation 22:13.
I’m not going to list loads of references, they can easily be found, but check out ‘He is before all things’ (Col. 1:16-17) and when the universe began He already existed ( 1 John 1:1).
All Scripture is inspired by God, written by men and in their own style. Scripture must be viewed in context and not with ‘grabbed’ verses, and in recognition that the author is conveying a message in which the writing will be influenced by the surrounding culture.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe we have our replacement for John C.
…or four, that he was sincerely wrong.
…or five, that his specialness was inflated by later followers.
…or six, that political circumstances forced him into a perceived bind in which he decided to lie or mislead.
…or seven, that he was a huckster or sociopath all along.
Also, remember that ‘craziness’ is a very, very broad category.
“Or three, that he didn’t exist at all and the whole story is a myth.”
This option does not stand at all, many secular sources and masses of evidence support the existence of Jesus.
As also does evidence for the resurrection. Many scholars have examined the resurrection over years and have found no support for the hypothesis that Jesus did not rise from the dead.
There is more evidence for Jesus’ resurrection than there is for Julius Caesar invading Britain, but his conquest is believed without any problem. Is it that resurrection does not fit well with pride in our own wisdom?
“Really now, let’s think about this. Is it rational to believe….”
Surely a God who created an entire universe, and us, could manage ‘simple’ things like virgin birth. Just because we cannot comprehend things or understand them should we declare them nonsense. Read Job Chapters 38-42 if you feel like questioning God’s authority.
“Consider that last part: If God is all seeing ….”
I accept that God knew. God is omnipotent. He knows everything. Perhaps the fact that He loves us should explain why He decided not to destroy us, but chose to save us?
He knew we would continue to sin, but He laid the plan to save us through Christ. Sadly though, those who refuse to accept this gift of grace through Christ will receive that fate which was postponed by Noah. Although God does say that He wants all to be saved! Can He do anymore than this?
Incidentally, on that theme, love for other people should be the only reason that true Christians want to give out the message of the gospel. Not for personal gain or achievement but purely because they love others, as Jesus does, and wish to see them saved. As a Christian, I am saved, my compassion is now for others who are not, and my life which once was dark is now light, and is now dedicated to carrying on Jesus’ work.
“You know what is rational to me? Osiris, a mythological story…”
Mmm! but where’s the proof. There is proof for Jesus, and did this god die for others or himself? Why did he die? Why did he come alive again? Jesus died for a reason, it was us, nothing else.
Stories may be mixed, but truth never is.
Blessings
Oh, that’s clever: using Ecclesiastes to dodge a relevant critique. Still doesn’t deal with the silliness of Pascal’s Wager, though.
To an ancient Israelite, copy machines and free-market economics are both pretty new.
No airplanes in the Bible; methinks the author of Ecclesiastes was a little abrupt with his judgment about new things under the sun.
Oh, Elemenope, you just know what doug’s response is going to be, don’t you? It’ll probably go something like this: “What Ecclesiastes is referring to is human motivations and sinfulness and depravity (as from all that book larnin’!)”
I read parts of pascals wager and it sounds to me like he wasn’t totally convinced of his faith, he simply says to side with the things of faith and to believe as if it were so…
Problem here is, God wants you to know him. He says you CAN be sure of your faith, it’s not a religiuos crap shoot…his word is for seeking the truth, those that truly seek will find, I am convinced because His word is what finally convinced me.
As far as Ecclesiastes, this book was written by the richest man that ever lived (Bill Gates 5 times over by todays standards even) and his writings were about seeking for purpose and meaning in life, after he exhausted everything, he realzed that God was all that mattered,,sold out!!
RE: nothing new under the sun…In context…Solomon was talking about thought, his thought life…Airplanes were certainly new after the Wright Brothers invented the airplane, but I am sure that it wasn’t a new thought, I can just see Adam, after he named the tterradactyl, saying< i wonder if I can ever fly like that?
(hey this will get the synics energized!!) Where is this in the bible? Actually Job mentions the behemoth in these writings…yes the dinosuar existed several thousand years ago, don’t believe me, read from some famous creation scientists at http://www.answersingenesis.com
enjoy my brothers!!
doug, remember I pointed out a number of reasons why I’m not a believer? This is something that makes me less likely to become a believer. Dinosaurs living a few thousand years ago? Sorry, doug, but that’s demented. That is the most diplomatic way I can describe it.
If you insist on being literal you’re giving non-believers the best ammunition at all – the ability to point out that the literal Bible is clearly false and ridiculous.
UUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
SO tired of this IGNORANT godbottery!!!!!
“As far as I know the Dead Sea Scrolls …”
The DSS fit within a range of 150BC – 70CE. For the most part, they predate Christianity.
Is that how you think serious scholars should work? Through the Holy Spirit?
“Christian sites are boring, I like a healthy debate, ”
When what you are saying rises to the level of debate, we’ll let you know.
Roger, don’t think I am not tired of the christian garbledigook that spouts out of the mouths of His elect?
I am not responsible for anybody but myself….modern day christianity gives true Christ followers a bad name…
The Christians in Sudan that stand up in the face of death and proclaim Christ while watching their families slaughtered in front of them, because they won’t deny Jesus, now those are my hero’s!!
Good Call, Sunny!
You mean just spouting tired Jeebusy platitudes ad nauseum isn’t debate? ;-)
There is exactly as much proof for Jesus as there is for Osiris. A story. Beyond that, sorry mate, there’s no proof for Jesus’ resurrection.
I will not argue that “Jesus” did exist. I will argue that he did NOT exist as recorded in the Bible.
Many Christian scholars have examined the evidence. I would suggest that you read something that is not written from a Christian biased perspective. It may enlighten you.
Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the Bible you will not understand the truth of God’s word – it is a locked book. You will only comment on your own wisdom and not the wisdom of God.
‘But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them.’ (1 Cor. 2:14)
‘…not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit.’ (1 Cor. 2:13)
Which is why the Psalmist said, ‘open my eyes that I may behold wonderful things from your law.’ (Ps. 119:18)
‘the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.’ (2 Cor. 4:4).
So the answer is yes, how else, but not my answer but God’s.
“You are going to find that almost all of us have asked god/the holy spirit/ jesus/allah/ etc… to reveal himself and his alleged truth to us. It is the utter lack of response that started us questioning his existence.”
Technically, it would be a lack of faith. People I’ve known have waited for years for “answered prayers” without really questioning His existence. But if someone doesn’t have faith in something, no wonder they question it. They didn’t really believe in it in the first place. If someone has faith, they have no reason to question it.
Romans 1:21
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
So here God shows that He hardens hearts….
Using a book to prove arguments against said book is not logical. You have to prove the existence of such a “holy spirit” (and if this thing exists, then why’s it so ridiculously selective about to whom it reveals crap?).
I can understand why you’d say something about letting the Holy Spirit guide you if you’re just an ordinary believer trying to make sense of your belief and the Bible.
But a scholar, studying, say, the Dead Sea scrolls? Talk about a big fat case of confirmation bias. Nobody is going to take such a scholar seriously. Nor should they.
Sorry trj, I need to clarify this.
I was referring to the Bible when I talked about the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of God’s word and not the Dead Sea Scrolls-although I am sure the Holy Spirit would help here also, if asked.
In reply to Roger’s comments I can reply: have you asked the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you?
If you desire to know the truth then why not ask Him? You never know you may become part of the select people! All you need to do is ask.
“and if this thing exists, then why’s it so ridiculously selective about to whom it reveals crap?”
“have you asked the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you?
If you desire to know the truth then why not ask Him?”
You are going to find that almost all of us have asked god/the holy spirit/ jesus/allah/ etc… to reveal himself and his alleged truth to us. It is the utter lack of response that started us questioning his existence.
Did you really think it was going to be this easy?
“I’m sure none of them have ever thought about asking god to reveal himself. I’ll just suggest that and they will finally get it!”
sheeesh.
…. In reply to Roger’s comments I can reply: have you asked the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you?
are you refering to jesus christ bieng our lord and savior when you say truth.
“are you refering to jesus christ bieng our lord and savior when you say truth.”
That’s part of it, but the truth is the whole of God’s word ( John 17:17)
Asking the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth must be done with sincere motives, with a humble attitude, with a desire to know the Lord.
God knows all hearts and also if we are proud to carry our sin, and unrepentant, then chances are that our request or prayer will not be answered.
We have to come to the Lord with a repentant heart, not with one that demands He does what we ask and tells us everything on our terms. We cannot approach the Lord in arrogance.
” We have to come to the Lord with a repentant heart, not with one that demands He does what we ask and tells us everything on our terms. We cannot approach the Lord in arrogance. ”
Are you saying that no one who honestly tried to find god (christian or otherwise) failed to do so.
I for one used to be a christian and I tried as hard as I could to find god but your god didn’t speak to me or didn’t reveal himself to me.
I have a few question for you
1) When you claim that god does everything we ask are you claiming that god answers all prayers .
2) Please give me your best understood definition of gods whole word.
3) If your god really wants people to find him why is he hiding.
@markbey
Hi Mark? sorry missed your post yesterday.
” We have to come to the Lord with a repentant heart, not with one that demands He does what we ask and tells us everything on our terms. We cannot approach the Lord in arrogance. ”
Are you saying that no one who honestly tried to find god (christian or otherwise) failed to do so.
Difficult to answer this one because I do not personally know everyone, but God extends His invitation of salvation to all people.
Perhaps if people have not found God then either it is not yet the time that God has ordained, or they have not approached Him in humility and repentance of their sins. I would say that God knows everyone and promises that whoever seeks God with a sincere heart will find Him.
I for one used to be a christian and I tried as hard as I could to find god but your god didn’t speak to me or didn’t reveal himself to me.
If you became a Christian you must have found
God! Puzzled!
I have a few question for you
1) When you claim that god does everything we ask are you claiming that god answers all prayers .
Yes! But did I claim that God does everything we ask?
“We have to come to the Lord with a repentant heart, not with one that demands He does what we ask and tells us everything on our terms”
2) Please give me your best understood definition of gods whole word.
The Bible
3) If your god really wants people to find him why is he hiding.
He isn’t, it is written down over 66 books over thousands of years
Blessings
“Without the Holy Spirit unlocking the Bible you will not understand the truth of God’s word – it is a locked book. ”
Without 3-D glasses unlocking “A Perfect World” you will not understand his revelation – it is a locked book. Have you ever tried it?
-I don’t intend to be mean, I only want you to acknowledge that your sentence is really “strange”, it has no sense for any non-believer neither for most of the believers.
“If you desire to know the truth then why not ask Him? You never know you may become part of the select people! All you need to do is ask.”
I should think that all the comments on this blog by us atheists asking for proof and evidence is the very act of seeking truth. At the very least, we’re seeking validation of your (and other believers’) beliefs. Surely your “God” sees all this activity on the Intarwebs…surely, if it exists, and if it cares about its creation, and if it wants all of human kind to know it, then it will make itself plainly visible or apprehensible by the very faculties that it allegedly installed in its creation.
@Roger
“I should think that all the comments on this blog by us atheists asking for proof and evidence is the very act of seeking truth.”
Exactly, this is what it is all about. God wants you to seek the truth and He wants you to understand His word.
But you need Him to help you. You cannot control God and make Him do what you ask Him, and then because he does not meet your criteria dismiss Him and go of on your own thing.
In the Bible there is enough evidence. Around the world today there is enough evidence. But because it is not proven conclusively it is rejected.
With some people if Jesus suddenly appeared in from of them they would quickly dismiss it.
Perhaps only a shout at God, from a person, to do exactly as they say is what is needed. But sorry God does not dance on our fingers.
Could we even command our friends to do exactly what we wanted, how should we expect it of God then.
Would he have our respect if He just jumped around to our demands.
There is a verse in the Bible about ‘waiting upon the Lord’. Why? Because He knows better than we do about how everything fits together, about what is the best thing to do, about how the universe, law, physics, fit together.
It is not about us, we are the created, He is the creator. Today people worship the created and not the creator.
For your re-assurance God does know everything, so better to leave it to Him to decide what is best.
Blessings
The dates of the scrolls are debated. The fact that they mention Christianity and Jesus must mean that some, if not all, were written after the ascension of Christ.
“Some scholars have argued that the scrolls were the product of Jews living in Jerusalem, who hid the scrolls in the caves near Qumran while fleeing from the Romans during he destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE.” (Wikepdia).
This is going off-topic slightly and there are other theories, so I’ll leave it here.
Blessings
I should have added “and I bet eastern cultures have spring festivals as well”. Thanks for that.
I do find it amusing that Christmas is now celebrated in Japan. A modern day assimilation of a festival containing elements of at least two different religious traditions, by a culture with a third, completely separate religious tradition. Extra presents!
I find it curious that we still celebrate the death of Jesus depending upon a moon’s calendar, it’s funny. May I celebrate my birthday that way?
Besides, it’s supposed that europeans come from Aryans from the region of India-Iran (“Historians also believe that Holi was celebrated by all Aryans but more so in the Eastern part of India”) so maybe our spring festival come from those times – althought a festival based upon equinoxes may be common to all the cultures with astrological notions
I guess there was a codicil in there excusing calling people “fools” on the Internet.
I was always a little jealous of my cousins who had Orthodox grandparents. It meant that they got two Easters, two Christmases and a Name Day as well as a birthday.
Well, friday is the holy day for all of us pastafarians :)
butbutbut…doesn’t it make your monitor explode? :-)
Nah, it just crashes the OS.
The proof of Jesus resurrection lies all around you. Millions of testimonies and Christians and a faith that has stood through centuries.
Where is Osiris now? I would reckon that most people would know Jesus than know Osiris. Both of them are stories, one is fiction, one is fact.
How would you know about Jesus apart from the Bible. Admittedly, evidence is there, written by historical scholars. But first hand knowledge has also been written by people that knew Him and followed Him during His ministry on earth. Luke was a physician and his intention was to record the truth about Jesus.
“The proof of Jesus resurrection lies all around you. Millions of testimonies and Christians and a faith that has stood through centuries.”
Cool – the fact that people have believed in jesus through the centuries is proof of his resurection? Who knew.
Of course that also means the muslims have it right, because people have believed in that allah guy for centuries too.
“How would you know about Jesus apart from the Bible. Admittedly, evidence is there, written by historical scholars.”
Cite please.
Scholars write about Jesus because of the religion some people made based around him, that doesn’t prove his divinity, that just proves that he’s an interesting identity.
How would I know about Jesus without the Bible? Obviously, I wouldn’t. Without the Bible, and without the people who trumped up his divinity SEVERAL GENERATIONS AFTER the time that he was around, then he would’ve been just another ancient history Jewish rabbi.
The “proof” of Jesus’ resurrection is the word of others. So, if I were to tell you that I am the second coming of Christ, and had twelve friends of mine tell you the same thing, would you then believe that?
If I never performed a miracle before you, but claimed that I had, and had these twelve people back it up, would that convince you?
If I had my twelve friends all write a gospel about how divine I am, would you believe that?
If I did anything, today, that serves as evidence in your eyes for Jesus… would you then believe me to be everything I claim?
In the end, you did not witness any of Jesus’ miracles. They are stories in a glorified story book. They are things that you are told, and you take everything that they say to you just on the word of all of these people who have ALSO never witnessed anything that Jesus is said to have done. Since your proof for Jesus is what others have told you, then my proof for my divinity is what I am telling you.
In the entire existence of our civilized recorded history, there has never been magic outside of fictional stories. The Bible is as demonstratively true as is any play from Shakespeare. There may be some similarities to real events within both, but they’re largely works of fiction.
“Where is Osiris now?”
Well if Emperor Constantine had used the religion of Osiris instead of Christianity, it’d be a world religion now.
Think about it.
Also, there is no evidence that Jesus existed.
Romans 1:21 (New International Version)
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
no offense
You’re welcome.
And Happy Re-erection Day!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Oh Dork Man, you are so angry and bitter-for the wrong reasons. I would be a hyprocrite if I were to say I wasn’t.
There would be no rational way to explain to you what I’m talking about, and to give my personal examples would take up to much room for a blog response thread, but I will say this….
Science and religion are not as far removed from one another as you think, and the Atheist belief system is based on nothing more than scientific values. I have always kept an open mind. Over the years my friends have come from diversified religious belief systems- from atheists to so called “satanists”- in fact, my twin soul was an atheist up until the day she died. A belief system is really nothing more than a persons search for the truth, and whatever it is you believe, I know that you will continue to question the mysteries of life and death-humans are built to pursue wisdom and truth.
With that said, I implore you to keep an open mind-to not do so would be to desensitize the power of your mind.
Check out the Book, “The Afterlife Experiments:Breakthrough Scientific Evidence of Life After Death.” It was written by Gary E. Schwartz, one of the most respected scientist’s of our time. In that book you’ll find other references to a plethora of professionals who also lean towards, and work within fields based on scientific evidence. (i.e. not religious)
All I’m saying is that I believe there is another side to our universe, there is a creator of that which is both beautiful and chaotic, and that when we die, it doesn’t end here. “Energy never dies, it just changes form” Theres a scientific fact for you.
Be well.
annabella
I do not label my spirituality. Why does there always have to be a label in religion? I believe there is a creator, I believe in life after death, and I pray. Some may call me a christian, but christians wouldn’t consider me so because I don’t buy into organized religion, nor that the Bible is flawless.
If I had to be labeled I would probably be considered New Age, or a mix a several denominations-I find truth in many denominations, and beyond that many of these are nearly exactly alike- The only difference is the name of their Gods and there interpretation of heaven and hell-what the process is etc etc.
Markbey,
As I stated above, Atheist base their beliefs on what is rational and can be proven. Thus, going on faith is not something that an Atheist will do. Many Christians do not understand this concept of rationality. Some believe that Atheists become that way because they were hurt by someone who was religious, was denied something by God, or other reason. The truth is that Atheist need absolute proof of the existence of God, such as Him coming down and showing himself. That will never happen though. So Atheist will continue to not believe in God.
As for proofs that the Bible is authentic; for every proof that it is, there is a proof that it isn’t. That, to an Atheist, makes the Bible seem irrational. The Bible itself is irrational because of all the contradictions that are present and the fact that it was written well after the facts by people who were not present at the actual event. Additionally, the Bible appears to be a compendium of stories based upon the myths that were present prior to the Bible. It just appears that someone wanted to play Hans Christian Anderson by making one big story of the myths that were present at that time.
The birth of Jesus from a virgin is irrational. The impregnation of Mary by a God is irrational. The death of Jesus in order to save the sinners of the world is irrational. There really is little in the Bible them makes it possible for an Atheist to ‘believe’.
It is a frame of mind. Some people are more easily deluded than others. Atheists are some of the best educated and most read people out there. There is a reason why religion does not want their followers to read certain books. It is to keep you from thinking. I would suggest that you read some books written by Atheists with an open mind before you condemn our non-belief in God. Especially those of you who so ardently wish us Atheist to read the Bible (which I have read at least 4 times now).
“I believe there is a creator, I believe in life after death, and I pray.”
What evidence do you have that the creator exists or that your prayer works?
….. I do not label my spirituality ……
with all do respect that isn’t what i asked you, what i would like to know specifically is what informs your beliefs.
where do you get them from, what philosophies or text inform your ideas on spiritiaulity. i am assuming you didnt just make them up.
not trying to be a jerk im just curious.
“The evidence I have is my own life, Jesus saved me and is still changing me”
This isn’t evidence, it’s a statement. what evidence do you have that it was jesus that saved/changed you and not one of any number of causes (the most likel of which is plain old you.)
“how many people have the ability to change there lives?”
Every single last one, if by change you mean stop engaging in behaviors that negatively impact their lives. If by change you mean something else (like improve their standard of living) then there can be many external factors that keep them from the change. (Of course there is no evidence I’ve seen that jesus changes those for people either.)
So how does this “faith” happen then. If I question god’s existence, but still act as if he exists, that’s not enough for god? There is some “faith” beyond that which is required?
BTW…how do you know this abouth “lack of faith?”
I can’t tell if you’re being ironic or not.
trj
me?
…. But if someone doesn’t have faith in something, no wonder they question it. They didn’t really believe in it in the first place. If someone has faith, they have no reason to question it.
…..
how do you know if this is a true statement or not. if a woman or a man believed and had faith that their wife or husband had never cheated but then found out otherwise doesn’t that invalidate this statement.
are you saying people cant believe something or have strong faith in something once but then later on change their mind after finding out evidence that disproves what they had originally believed.
@Bill:
No, Niva Tuvia.
Niva Tuvia, do you mean the faith that according to the parable of the centurion’s servant and 1 Cor. 12:10 and Eph. 2:8 is a gift from God? I tried praying for that one too, for several years. Nothing.
“BTW…how do you know this abouth “lack of faith?””
Remember I mentioned having my own experience with atheism?
“how do you know if this is a true statement or not. if a woman or a man believed and had faith that their wife or husband had never cheated but then found out otherwise doesn’t that invalidate this statement.
are you saying people cant believe something or have strong faith in something once but then later on change their mind after finding out evidence that disproves what they had originally believed.”
The wife or husband didn’t question it until there was evidence. I claim that I haven’t found any evidence against God, so I don’t really know where you were going with that. Maybe I misunderstood your question.
“Niva Tuvia, do you mean the faith that according to the parable of the centurion’s servant and 1 Cor. 12:10 and Eph. 2:8 is a gift from God? I tried praying for that one too, for several years. Nothing.”
No. I was referring to faith in general for anything, not just God.
But those scriptures and the example of the centurion clearly support the concept of faith in God being a gift from God – “…help my unbelief”, as the centurion pleas. Why, if God exists, would he deny the genuine request for this gift over years, when this is the only thing that is going to “save” me?
I think I have every reason to question a faith that is unsupported over a long period of time, despite the fact that I did indeed “really believe it in the first place”. That’s probably why it took so long for me to lose it – one doesn’t like to find out that a deeply held conviction is false.
“Remember I mentioned having my own experience with atheism?”
Yeah – you really didn’t answer my question. State above that “lack of faith” is what causes god to keep from revealing himself to us. My question are:
1. How do you know it’s l”ack of faith” that keeps giod from showing up on my front porch; and
2. What does “faith” mean in your world?
You seem to imply it’s something more than asking, begging god to reveal himself, or acting as if god exists even if you have doubts. If that’s so, what does it mean?
Bill,
The evidence I have is my own life, Jesus saved me and is still changing me, ask my wife (she would say “yep” he’s not the same person I married”) how many people have the ability to change there lives?
Answer: nobody really, maybe for a time, maybe to put on a good face, but deep inside you are who you are. Only Christ can transform the human soul and make it into something B-E-A-UTIFUL!!
read this for more evidence of Christ…
http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/the-case-for-christ.htm
personal anecdotes are an especially bad and unreliable form of evidence
That’s bull crap, Doug.
I’ve changed my life drastically WITHOUT Jesus.
I used to be addicted to crystal meth, and then I quit. God had nothing to do with it, I just decided that I didn’t like who I had become.
Sock! Good for you! That’s awesome! :)
It just gets my goat when people claim that we cannot better ourselves without turning to Jesus.
It also offends the FUCK out of me if I relate to someone my own trials and hardships, and they say “Jesus helped you, even if you didn’t know it.” because that cheapens my own accomplishment.
-I- am strong, -I- am loving, -I- am good. I am not ANY of those things because of Jesus. -I- chose to be because -I- cannot imagine being anything else. It is something that I do for myself and by myself. To attribute these difficult actions to SOMEONE ELSE…! Oh that infuriates me.
And I know that Doug didn’t do that, might not even have done it, but. Some Godheads do make that claim.
Well, Sock, I believe in your strength and I believe that you did accomplish those things yourself! As I said, it is awesome!
Sock: you are awesome. Good job.
It also irritates me when people cheapen human effort by attributing good things to a god, but I don’t have an extreme example like that. “‘God’ didn’t spend hours planning, acquiring, and preparing this meal, goddamnit!”
You forgive us? How very presumptuous of you. Not to mention arrogant.
So very, very wrong.
Forgiveness is a foundational teaching of pretty much every major religion, including Islam. You’d be hard pressed to find an ethical teaching in which Christianity is special or apart from the others.
Wow- A creed that isn’t even in the bible!!! That was written by men hundreds of years after Jesus died! Wow! I’m so convinced now!
Sigh – why even come here is this is what you are going to offer in support of your argument for god.
At least he admits he has no evidence:
“don’t have anything but my life and my belief…”
In Doug’s defense, among all the sects, Baptist, Methodist, (an offshoot of Roman Catholicism) Lutheran, Protestant, Church of Christ etc etc etc, Roman Catholicism is the most lenient, and in my opinion has the most validity among them. Along with Judaism and Paganism, Roman Catholicism is one of the oldest religious sects. (Please spare me the crackpot jokes about the child molesting priests’, it’s been done again and again.)
The problem with his defense however is, as many of you have noted, who is to say which denomination is truely correct? Who is to say that all Buddists, Muslims, Jews, etc are wrong and that christianity is the only way into heaven? No one knows that with any certainty, and as I mentioned before-let us not forget the passage, “Judge not lest thee be judged.”
On another note, I find it somewhat amusing that you throughly enjoy “House”, when his character is blatantly atheist. YA RLY.
BTW House is my hero.
Thats OK I forgive you. :)
First of all, I am really happy for Sock, not many can say what he said…everyone finds their strength somewhere, drugs are a killer, (satan has a heydey with my brother-in-law).
I found mine in Christ, I am excited to know that I am changed now and changed for eternity…pretty good package.
TRJ, you have got to look into answersingenesis.com it is by far the best data ever compiled by international scientists….I am not making this stuff up….good stuff, legit, every Atheist should dig into this stuff…case for Christ was also written by and atheist…more good stuff.
L8tr
Ow! Ow! Owwww! The ignorance burns! Ow!
Seriously, Doug. You need to look here:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pseudo-science/
LRA, wait a minute wasn’t that info compiled by a bunch of cynics?
is this a trick?
You almost got me….
No- It was compiled by the best philosophical minds in the field! It was compiled by people who make their living doing this stuff!!!
Further, a good site for the compilation of the actual science is here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
It cites *actual* scientific literature. If you want to see if any of the fake scientists over at answers in genesis have any actual scientific publications (and the answer is they don’t, but you might want to look anyway), then search here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
Seriously, guy, check it out!!!
And I want to reiterate that the first link I put there is from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. You know Stanford University– the IV League of California?
Whoa, Doug! Your new pic is a little scary/mean looking. You’re a fairly nice guy, so I’m not sure if it represents!
Looks very similar to how Edward Norton looked in American History X.
That was a fantastic movie. It’s what lead me to accepting Edward Norton as my lord and savior and favorite actor.
I totally love Ed Norton!
As you should! If anyone is the son of God, it’s him.
@doug:
AIG is probably one of the worst sources you can find if you expect to be taken seriously. What next, you’ll tell me Kent Hovind is a respectable scholar?
The working premise of AIG is that God is true and then “evidence” is found to support this claim. That is the antithesis of real science.
From their about page:
That’s simply pathetic.
I have to wonder how many “scholars” there are out there who proclaim to not be “serious”. I’ll wager, not many.
I have to wonder how many “scholars” there are out there who proclaim to not be “serious”. I’ll wager, not many.
-I’ll pretend for one minute that you didn’t get what I meant.
Just because they don’t “proclaim to not be serious” doesn’t mean they are taken seriously. And the ones that are taken seriously are ‘serious scholars’ in my book.
Miguel: “I’ll pretend for one minute that you didn’t get what I meant.”
You’ll pretend? That should come easily enough.
Continues….”Just because [scholars] don’t ‘proclaim to not be serious’ doesn’t mean they are taken seriously. And the ones that are taken seriously are ’serious scholars’ in my book.”
I won’t pretend that you didn’t get what I meant; there’s no need to.
What you just said, above, has nothing to do with my point regarding what you said previously. I’m not talking in least bit about how “scholars” are perceived; I’m talking about how they perceive themselves. I fully understand that by “serious”, what you mean is the ones you agree with, and vice versa. And if they have a differing conclusion?… well, of course Miguel can proclaim all he’d like that he doesn’t take them seriously. However, that does not mean that they are not “serious” about what they do. Do you honestly think a “scholar” with whom you disagree cannot be taken seriously by someone *else*? Oh, nevermind…. the point was obviously lost on you. Forget it.
“I fully understand that by “serious”, what you mean is the ones you agree with “
Uh, No. Looks like you DIDN’T get my point. When I said “serious” I meant the ones who are generally agreed with by people who study the matter. Dan Brown may have got his information from some Bible scholars, at least thats what he claims, but the ideas he put forward are generally not agreed with by the bulk of respected Bible scholars. We have to accept that in cases like these, there are people who introduce radical ideas that go against the conventional idea, without convincing and peer reviewed evidence to support their claims. And these were the ones I was talking about.
So this particular line of yours was done for the sake of being contentious, bit pathetic.
I’m not talking in least bit about how “scholars” are perceived; I’m talking about how they perceive themselves.
- Well you responded to my question. I wasn’t talking about how scholars perceive themselves – why should anyone talk about this anyway, seems irrelevant – I was talking about how they were perceived.
And if they have a differing conclusion?
- Even if they had differing conclusions, if they are radical and newly introduced ideas to which they have no solid/convincing evidence for, then chances are such conclusions will be marginalized. You don’t get this?
well, of course Miguel can proclaim all he’d like that he doesn’t take them seriously. However, that does not mean that they are not “serious” about what they do.
- Well, ofcourse boom can claim to take them seriously even if they go against conventional beliefs without convincing evidence. However that does not mean that everyone else should, nor does it mean that it is rational that one do so.
Do you honestly think a “scholar” with whom you disagree cannot be taken seriously by someone *else*?
- Strawman. Here I can do that too: Do you honestly think that a scholar who is generally perceived, by other scholars, to be diverging from conventional wisdom without convincing evidence should be treated seriously by those ‘other scholars’, and therefore us?
Hello?? He existed before the universe… that IS logos theory!!! Duh! Check out Heraclitus or Plato, please!
In fact, read Plato’s Republic. It’s eerie how much *christianity* there is in a book that predates the gospels by 600 years!!!
Awwww. I like JC better. This guy makes me nuts!!! :(
The bible was written by illiterate arabs back when they thought the earth was flat. Any 12 year old today knows incredibly more about the universe than the wisest man of biblical times.
Religion could not possibly be started today. Can you imagine a woman walking into any major hospital anywhere in the world today and explaining that she was a pregnant virgin and that she was carrying the child of a man or spirit in the sky.
“Code 69. Get someone from Psyche down here, STAT!”
Religion is something one inherits from their family,society, or culture. If Osama Bin Laden had been born in Kansas he would probably be a Baptist. If he had a good education he would probably be a scientist.
We must take religion out of our schools and cease and desist from brainwashing our children before they are old enough to reason for themselves and religion would disappear in one generation!
Finally, if there is a god he needs to seriously hone his marketing skills in Advertising 101. All he has to do is paint a big message across the moon for all to see.
“I AM GOD YOU DAMN FOOLS
DON’T YOU KNOW ITS ME DAT RULES
SO DROP ON DOWN AND WORSHIP ME
OR I’LL BURN YOUR ASSES FOR ETERNITY”
Hallelujah! That would work on even me! Parables just don’t get it dude.
If God wrote that, I doubt that would get you to love Him, it will just get you to fear Him.
Which proves the point I’ve been making, you people will only believe if God reveals himself to you in your own terms.
It’s hard to unpack the sheer number of problems with this statement.
The bible was written by illiterate arabs…
Number one, Arabs are people who come from the Arabian peninsula. The Jews were not Arabs. Second, for a people that basically invented social literacy, it is odd (at the least) to call them illiterate.
…back when they thought the earth was flat.
They didn’t.
Any 12 year old today knows incredibly more about the universe than the wisest man of biblical times.
Leaving aside the sheer number of stupid twelve-yera-olds in the world today, I would submit that while the average teen today probably knows much more about chemistry and the solar system and fighter jets than his ancient counterpart, in turn the ancient would have him beat in goat-herding, desert survival, and chariot warfare. Who is to say which knowledge is the worthier sort.
Religion could not possibly be started today.
Tell L. Ron Hubbard.
Can you imagine a woman walking into any major hospital anywhere in the world today and explaining that she was a pregnant virgin and that she was carrying the child of a man or spirit in the sky.
Again, leaving aside that there are parts of the world today where that would be accepted as plausible, parthenogenesis is observed in other species, including very occasionally mammals; it is possible in principle in humans. The man-sky-spirit stuff is harder, but there’s always room for metaphor. And these things are no different in kind that the fairy tales we tell our children about how the world works, the narratives that reify things like justice and efficiency and greed and love in a tangible way.
Religion is something one inherits from their family,society, or culture.
At least initially, that’s true.
If Osama Bin Laden had been born in Kansas he would probably be a Baptist.
There are Muslims in Kansas, y’know.
If he had a good education he would probably be a scientist.
There are Muslim scientists, too. I personally met an entomologist from Pakistan back in my school days. Very good with the bug stuff, and also an observant Muslim.
We must take religion out of our schools and cease and desist from brainwashing our children before they are old enough to reason for themselves and religion would disappear in one generation!
I doubt it, sincerely, even if I thought that would be a good thing (and I don’t). People desire frameworks to make sense of their lives, and those which provide more elegant explanations will be favored (and be manufactured if unavailable) even if they are weaker at explaining the mass of facts. It’s how many humans cope with the large and seemingly meaningless morass of data that assaults us through our daily lives.
Well as a victim of ridiculous church practices, I would say that god revealing himself to me on my terms would be an act of mercy. But what do I know?
If God is so desperate for everyone to believe and be saved, why doesn’t he swallow his pride and “reveal himself to [them] in [their] own terms?”
What do finite terms matter to God?
Anna: Religion represents man’s desperate desire for immortality in the glaring obviousness of his mortality.
It is nothing but wishful thinking, and it devalues the short life we have.
annabella,
Check out books by Larry Dossey and Richard Gerber. Very interesting stuff. Also The Field by Lynn McTaggart.
If it is your intention to create a holy and moral people, do you honestly think that they would have greater propensity to be holy and moral if you appear to them and show them some cool magic tricks?
Divine coercion would deny the practical necessity of free will, hence, God will not use irresistible coercion.
God reveals Himself subjectively, rather than objectively. This way, each will believe what they will, instead of having to acknowledge an undeniable objective reality. If we knew with 100% certainty that the Biblical God existed, there is not one among us, including the already faithful, who would not act differently.
Furthermore, God reveals himself to those who seek Him out. I know a lot of atheists have done so to no avail, I’ hope more knowledgeable Christians could answer why this is so.
Miguel, you’re forgetting that according to the story, um…he did. And how! The cool set of magic tricks like turning staves to snakes, murdering the first-born of Egypt, appearing as an effing pillar of smoke and fire and guided a nomadic people across the sea of reeds, and he even threw in an impromptu drowning of their former oppressors as a bonus.
Remember those magic tricks? If God did that sort of thing today, you better bet people would believe, and fast, and hard. And He didn’t seem too concerned that such acts would make the Jews less holy or moral; in fact He claimed much the opposite, no?
Damn! I hate it when you reply to my comments! lol!
I’ll have to think of a way to answer that, It’ll come around..
lol Miguel – is this your equivalent of the famous Richard Dawkins and the 11 second pregnant pause? (on YouTube) – this is a bit of a hoax btw.
Haha I guess so. Elemenope seems to be the smartest guy here.
First, God has revealed Himself to us throughout the Bible; then, as now, we can choose not to believe it and dismiss it all as a fairy story, ridicule it, and turn our hard hearts away from Him.
Secondly, God reveals Himself to us in ‘general revelation’ through His creation, nature, and in our hearts and conscience we instinctively know the difference between right and wrong; this is God’s character that lives within us, because we were created in His likeness. (Romans 1)
God further reveals Himself through ‘special revelation’ to those that humble themselves of their pride, turn to Him, repent of their sins, and receive His forgiveness through Jesus Christ.
To think that God should do what we demand of Him is a product of our fallen nature and our pride. Can we really have the arrogance to tell God what He should do, how He should do things and what He should do for us to make our own little world good for ‘me’. Self and disobedience caused the fall and it still lives in us. God does not do what we demand of Him. He is God, we are not. Should the clay say to the potter why did you do this, why did you make me this way.
Could you tell your employer how he should run his business, demand from him what you want; yet you feel you can demand these things from God.
God gave us a free will so that we can choose to love Him and obey Him or we can choose to reject Him and disobey Him. The choice is entirely ours. He will not force Himself upon us, but he desires that we should come back to Him.
Everything has been told and written about God and Jesus. The Bible is the story of Jesus and God’s plan of salvation for us. It is not a fairy story. We can argue around it for years, but the plan is finished, it has all been told, the offer is there for eternal life with the Lord, or eternal life without Him. The choice as always is yours.
Blessings
@Elem: Thanks, man. And don’t forget the magic tricks performed by Jesus and the disciples. It wasn’t just an Old Testament thing. Special attention should be paid to Paul’s encounter on the road to Damascus. That was an undeniable miracle, performed by God Himself, which specifically targeted a non-believer for conversion. If God didn’t care about Paul’s free will, why does He care about ours?
@UC: I’m not telling God how to do His Job. I’m just asking some questions about His priorities, based on my observations of the world. Remember, if He’s truly omnipotent, we have a 100% reliable indicator of His Will, even better than the Bible. It’s called “reality.”
Miguel, it’s kind of you to say, but I don’t think that’s true. :)
————
@ucbones
Should the clay say to the potter why did you do this, why did you make me this way. Could you tell your employer how he should run his business, demand from him what you want; yet you feel you can demand these things from God.
Only a foolish employer does not listen to the advice of his employees. It is an arrogant potter who does not respect the clay he works with his hands.
And, when you stop to think about it, if we are created beings, then our creation must have had some instrumental purpose for the creator; else why create? The dirty thought lurking underneath theology of whatever brand is the sneaking suspicion that humans are in the final analysis important creatures, worthy of attention. Why would a perfect God regard humans as worthy of attention unless there is something He gets from Humans He can’t get any other way?
God gave us a free will so that we can choose to love Him and obey Him or we can choose to reject Him and disobey Him. The choice is entirely ours.
No choice is entirely anyone’s. All choices, if they even exist at all, are constrained and shaped by the totality of circumstances within which they transpire, and as much reactions to those circumstances as self-generated impulses. God, as described in the Bible, is at least responsible for the totality of the circumstances which inform each choice. So, even if the choice is ultimately someone else’s, he has a lot of influence over how that choice will be made.
He will not force Himself upon us, but he desires that we should come back to Him.
As has been pointed out before, it would not take force to convince most current non-believers to believe. If you listen carefully, Atheists generally do not demand or require evidence that erases all possible doubt; they would be satisfied by even an inkling of an indication. If a man showed up at my door tomorrow, performed a few convincing parlor tricks of the water-to-wine variety, and said he was an incarnation of God, I’d at least question my Atheism and be more open to the possibility of divinity.
According to the text of the Bible, there was a time when God was liberal with the charism and not shy with regards to miracle-working; He certainly didn’t consider such to be a threat to human free-will then. What has changed between then and now?
@Andrew N.P
“If God didn’t care about Paul’s free will, why does He care about ours?”
God does care about our free will and respected Paul’s free will. Paul still had the choice to accept his vision as from the Lord or reject it. God did not remove Paul’s will and force him into service.
These kind of experiences still happen today. Not all people become Christians through attending meetings or church. For many it can be an experience similar to Paul’s.
Even after turning to the Lord, satan is still at work unceasingly trying to get people to reject their faith. As Christians we always have the choice throughout our life to choose.
Living as a Christian is a choice of will enabled by the power of the risen Christ.
Blessings
I’m confused… what says the Bible?
Mark 8:11-12 Jesus deny any proof to the demands
“11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him. 12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation. 13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.”
or maybe… Matthew 12:32-38 Jesus predicts his resurrection as a proof of his holiness
“38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. ”
What a surprise, the Bible is again contradicting itself. More… Luke 11
14 And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. 15 But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. 16 And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. [...] . 20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
That seems to be Jesus giving proofs.
John:
” 48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. 49 The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die. 50 Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way. 51 And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth. 52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. 53 So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house”
Why, then, can’t we have any proof of his existence?
Note: Nope, a book is not a proof
@UC
(WARNING: This is not my best post. This covers many topics at once.)
There is no “choice” in that. Assuming that you’re right, we either live forever in pleasure, or live forever in torment. Who, in their right mind, would chose torment?
However, for me as an atheist, it’s not quite that simple. Let’s assume that I were to choose eternal pleasure. However… IF YOU ARE WRONG!!!! Then I have to live what little time I have on this world believing a lie, and living my life based upon that lie. IF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!! then I have given up many experiences that could give greater purpose to my life. IF YOU ARE WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! then I will have given into the hate and “tradition” that is the Church, and spread intolerance as God’s word.
IF YOU ARE WRONG. If, however, you are RIGHT, and we are supposed to hate gays, rot in hell for not finding to Bible credible, refuse to dine at Red Lobster or Joe’s Crab Shack, or work on Sunday…. then we are shackled with a God who is far from love and goodness, and we’re fucked no matter what.
Maybe you like being told who and what to hate, with no reason given other than “this other guy told us to”. I, personally, would prefer not to hate. And no matter how you cut it, punishing someone with eternal torment for not believing some shoddily crafted book of fables and parables is NOT the act of someone who’s existence is called “love”.
Also.
“we instinctively know the difference between right and wrong”
Except for the sociopaths who do not. Except for those who LACK that evolutionary function of the brain that allows them to integrate smoothly with the society around them. Seriously, mate.
One day, I want you to sit and realize and ask yourself… what if you’re wrong. What if you have been mistaken all this time. In which case, you have been a good person WITHOUT any God. You have lived a wonderful life WITHOUT God, and can continue to do so.
If you want to turn that question back on me, then I will tell you that I have considered that question. In depth. What if I am wrong? No matter how silly the concept is to me, what if there -is- a God? My first response to that is, which version of God? Yahweh? Jesus? Allah? They’re all the same base guy, just with different versions.
However, to make it easier for you. What if I am wrong and the Christian God DOES exist? And my response to that is… the Bible has done a horrible job of portraying him. The Church has -called- him love and forgiveness and all sorts of amazing and wonderful things. However, I am told all sorts of amazing and wonderful things about any product that a salesman is trying to pawn on me. The Church receives tithes, and so it is then my view that Churches, while some of them do good, are at least in part about getting paid. If this was not so, then they would not ask for 10% of your income. I may be wrong, since I haven’t gotten to the point in the Bible where it tells everyone -how- to believe in Jesus, but… I don’t think that it really talks about God wanting 10% of your income from your 9-5 job.
So, from there, when it comes to the Christian God, I do not see him as a loving figure. I do not see him as benevolent or generous, and I think that He alone possesses the power to change my mind, yet He doesn’t. And so, He must clearly WANT me to burn forever. If the Churches are right, and it doesn’t matter how much good I do in this world, that if I don’t follow their tenets, I will burn eternally… then that is not a good and loving God.
In short. I am not unlike Doubting Thomas. If God is going to reveal his divine attributes to one person (a disciple of Jesus, although his gospel was cut from the Bible, so he must not have been that important, but still important enough for God to actually provide scientific proof), then why not to me? Are we not all equal and worthy of God’s love? And if so, then why do we not all receive equal treatment? If I have doubt, then banish it, Oh Lord. Why must you curse me with the ability to think for myself, and why did you make me knowing that I would not know your love? That I would be forsaken for no reason other than because you made me so?
By the way. You may doubt me, but. I -have- sought God, honestly and earnestly. I was agnostic before I was atheist, but I was very open to God. I denied the Churches because I saw too much evil and hate within them to believe that they were truly representative of a being made of love and hope, but I prayed. I contemplated. I thought. I looked into my heart. I waited.
And waited.
And waited.
and waited
waited
wait
ed.
Nothing. Ever. So if God exists, then he forsook me as he created me. I needed him when my Grandmother shot herself. I needed him when my childhood best friend died. He was not there, even though I looked. There was nothing.
So don’t tell me that your God is love when he does not offer any support to those that need it. When my best friend’s grandfather died, I was there for her. She spoke to me and I answered. Does that make me better than God? I don’t know, but it sure as hell makes me real.
@Elemenope
“Only a foolish employer does not listen….”
True, but no employer would accept arrogance and disrespect from an employee. So with God.
But as we approach an employer so we can approach God. We can come to God in prayer with requests and seek His help and speak in a relationship with Him, as we can with an employer ( except prayer!). But it needs to be done in respect and humility.
Would we come to our employer and demand that they do things our way, as we do with God?
“It is an arrogant potter… ”
God does respect His creation, what I am saying is that we should respect His authority in what He has created and not say that we know best how to do it.
“And, when you stop to think about it, if we are created beings, then our creation must have had some instrumental purpose for the creator;”
It did, God desired a relationship with us. He did not need to create us. He is complete. But he desired us, and to enjoy being with us in fellowship.
“sneaking suspicion that humans are in the final analysis important creatures,”
Correct, we are. We were created perfect, in God’s likeness, His character. We were created above all living things on the earth. We were created higher than angels. God’s character lives in us. This perfection has been corrupted through sin and so we live now in a broken world. But one day all will be restored as it was at the beginning. When we will once again live in a perfect relationship with Him.
“All choices, if they even exist at all, are constrained and shaped by the totality of circumstances”
Our free will is a gift from God. We may desire to know more about Jesus or even want to meet with Him but find we cannot, something more powerful is holding us back, we seem to lack the strength to commit ourselves.
That is our will. As we turn to the Lord then His power enables us to break free from the power of satan which is trying to stop us. Christ gives us the freedom to make that choice, as we truly desire it in our hearts.
God does not force us to come to Him, but as we come to Him He makes it possible for us to do so.
This power varies with different people. With Saul it was dramatic with others it can be less so.
As we come to the Lord He meets with us, but it is always in His time and at the best time.
It is all about Jesus and not about us. Everything is about God’s kingdom and God’s plans for His creation, we are just a part of it, to work with Him.
“As has been pointed out before, it would not take force to convince most current non-believers to believe.”
God does not force us to believe, He respects our dignity and welcomes our love willingly given for Him. What more could He do than die for us, is that not enough? But if we choose not to believe this and reject His offer of help then what more can He do?
“If a man showed up at my door tomorrow, performed a few convincing parlor tricks of the water-to-wine variety, and said he was an incarnation of God, I’d at least question my Atheism and be more open to the possibility of divinity.”
Miracles and signs are an indication of the reality of God’s kingdom. Jesus said that they were performed for our benefit to help us, but they are not to be taken as the way to God. That way is by faith.
In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit did not live within people and so signs were needed to show people the authenticity of God’s kingdom. They were also there to help and enable God’s people at times of crisis, as they are today. Jesus performed miracles during His ministry but after the outpouring of the Spirit as Pentecost then God’s people should be ‘walking by the spirit’ and not by signs.
God still does perform miracles and signs but when needed. I know people who have seen visions and received healing and signs but this is not to say that we should base our faith on these, because our faith should be in Jesus.
If we followed Jesus by signs then our faith and committment would be on what He can do to please us and not in who He is.
“What has changed between then and now?”
The resurrection and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within God’s people – as I mentioned above.
Blessings
@UC
“God does care about our free will and respected Paul’s free will. Paul still had the choice to accept his vision as from the Lord or reject it. God did not remove Paul’s will and force him into service.”
Yes, but he DID influence and direct Paul’s Free Will by providing that vision. While Paul could’ve shrugged it off and blamed it on the wine he had the night before, God made it a significant enough experience that Paul could not have done so in good conscience. If God were to reveal himself as a brief and inconsequential every day type of Day Dream… that’d be one thing. However, to actually do what he did to Paul was something else, it was something far from the norm and rarely (if ever!) encountered in the lifetime of your regular person.
Yes, we all have “Free Will” and can chose to ignore or deny or reject things that’re obvious. I see Christians doing that constantly with regards to the tenets of their religion. However, this is not what (most) atheists do. We aren’t denying obvious truths, we are looking at the world with unbiased eyes and do not see a God.
I am not denying or rejecting or refusing or opposing or hating or anything else. I just don’t see anything in this world that says to me “this could not have come about any other way, God must’ve done it.”
@Sock
(WARNING: This is not my best post. This covers many topics at once.)
I’ll reply to this, there’s so much here!
Blessings
Take your time mate. :) I know that it’s a long post, but it just seemed that everything I wrote lead to something else I wanted to say. :P
@ucbones
sorry to interrupt, only a question:
“It did, God desired a relationship with us. He did not need to create us. He is complete. But he desired us, and to enjoy being with us in fellowship.”
How do you know that?
@Francesc
It really is an expression of God as love. Read 1 John 4:8; John 3:16; John 15:13; 1Cor. 1:9. And also a culmination of Scripture throughout the Bible that God expresses His love and concern for His people. There is never any Scripture that states that God needs us for anything, but only that He desires us.
The Psalmist cries out, ‘what is man that you should remember him…’ Psalm 144:3
When we view God as the creator of the universe what can we really help Him with?
In Job, God states in Chapters 38-42, who He is and who we are. There is no mention of Him needed us to complete anything within Himself. God is self-sufficient.
In Genesis 1:26, God say, ‘Let us make man in our image’. This expresses a desire, not a need. In creation God expresses a desire that man should care for His creation. Everything He made was good.
God enjoyed a relationship with mankind before the fall and will restore that relationship after Christ returns.
The story of the Bible is God’s desire for us, not His need of us. He created us to glorify Himself. He created us in love and in love He has redeemed us. Christ did not need to die, He desired to, an expression of God’s love.
I hope that answers it for you.
@ucbones
“It did, God desired a relationship with us. He did not need to create us. He is complete. But he desired us, and to enjoy being with us in fellowship.”
—————————————————————————
yeah, I know that “God is love”
(unless you look at the OT, of course, that could be another God but that’s not the point)
What I was asking is…
1.- God desired a relationship. You are not only claiming that God has “desires”, but also that you know them. Is that in any passage of the Bible?
2.- “He did not need to create us” I indeed understand that assumption as God -almighty and all- can’t have any “need”. As I understand “He is complete”.
3.- “…and to enjoy being with us in fellowship”.
Enjoy? Why? He does not only have desires, but feelings -appart from love. He actually can enjoy?
Btw, thanks for the quotes from the Bible. My point is: each believer has his own personal God, with human-like characteristics around that idea. How can anyone claim to know God’s will? -in case it would exist, of course
@Francesc
“God desired a relationship. You are not only claiming that God has “desires”, but also that you know them. Is that in any passage of the Bible?”
Yes! and it is not unique or unusual to me; God reveals His heart to all Christians, the only difference is how much that Christian allows Him to. How else could Christians follow God unless we know Him.
‘…he who believes in Me [Jesus], the works that I do, he will do also..’ John 14: 12
Although the Bible is God’s word, revealing God, it is also ‘living’ word and through it God speaks to His people through words illuminated by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus promises to send the Holy Spirit to believers to guide them and make known God’s heart. John 14:16
The key verses though are these, ‘You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit’
How can we do this unless we know God’s heart?
And, ‘we [Jesus, God, Holy Spirit] will come to him and make our home with him.’ John 14:23
This is clear evidence that in a Christian lives the Trinity in Spirit. This indwelling leads and enables us to walk in harmony with God, knowing Him, obeying His word, and living a fulfilled life that glorifies God.
Sadly our humanity keeps this from being as it should be and although we become holier each day, it is still as looking through a mirror darkly.
“Enjoy? Why? He does not only have desires, but feelings -apart from love. He actually can enjoy? ”
Remember God made us in His likeness, so is it strange?
Blessings
@ucbones
“This is clear evidence that in a Christian lives the Trinity in Spirit”
Nope, it’s not. Given than we can’t even say that it exists such a thing as “spirit”. But it’s clear evidence that a christian is commanded to think so, and that was exactly what I was asking and what I didn’t know, so thank you very much.
I still have a problem: if a christian knows “God will” because of the Holy Spirit, we should suppose all christians knows it equally. What about the crusaders? They were christians too… What about the mormons? What about witch’s burners? They were not really christians? And how do you -or we- know that you are a real christian? They are so sure as you are. They can claim exactly what you are claiming
I was looking for that passage, John 14:12-14, but you have quoted only a part of it:
“12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it”
So, should we expect from a real christian to be resurrecting people, like Jesus did? Or at least changing water into wine, that seems a pretty easy magical trick
@francesca
“This is clear evidence that in a Christian lives the Trinity in Spirit”
“Nope, it’s not. Given than we can’t even say that it exists such a thing as “spirit”. But it’s clear evidence that a christian is commanded to think so, and that was exactly what I was asking and what I didn’t know, so thank you very much.”
Yes it is. I can’t comment much here because you are calling God a liar.
Speaking for myself, I know that the Holy Spirit lives within me, bringing about changes in my life that I never could have done myself. Bringing about an awareness of God’s word that I never could have under own wisdom. Another thing that the Holy Spirit brings about is ‘no fear in death’, because I know where I am going once I leave this earth. Perhaps you could you tell where this positive assurance comes from, I certainly didn’t do it myself.
On other occasions the Spirit has worked in me bringing about strength and wisdom in circumstances which I know have come from supernatural help.
How can I prove this, I cannot, I can only tell you. If you need to know you need to find Him.
“I still have a problem: if a christian knows “God will” because of the Holy Spirit, we should suppose all christians knows it equally. What about the crusaders? They were christians too… What about the mormons? What about witch’s burners? They were not really christians? And how do you -or we- know that you are a real christian? They are so sure as you are. They can claim exactly what you are claiming.”
I can only apologise for the Church over the centuries and what it has done in the name of Jesus, you are right.
Please refer to my statements for this: “God reveals His heart to all Christians, the only difference is how much that Christian allows Him to”
“Sadly our humanity keeps this from being as it should be and although we become holier each day, it is still as looking through a mirror darkly.”
The question is not that God does not speak through His word, but that man corrupts it because of his brokenness.
“I was looking for that passage, John 14:12-14, but you have quoted only a part of it:
“12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it”
So, should we expect from a real christian to be resurrecting people, like Jesus did? Or at least changing water into wine, that seems a pretty easy magical trick.”
Interesting we both found the same passage, could this be the work of the Spirit?
But in a word, yes, the same power that raised Jesus from the grave lives within a Christian. This power does manifest itself in Christians but not for party tricks or needless egotism or pride. If these things are necessary for God’s kingdom then, yes, a Christian will be seen to heal someone. But remember it is not the Christian who is doing this, but Christ, the Holy Spirit working through that person. The glory is Christ’s not the person.
One instantly becomes a Christian as they receive Christ, but then begins a journey of becoming more like Christ each day, if we are willing to allow the Spirit to guide us along this path. It is the journey of holiness, discipleship.
It is our broken humanity that becomes an obstacle to God’s work through us. This is the battle. In no way is living a Christian life easy, in fact it is much harder than not being a Christian, look what happened to Jesus!
Blessings
I hope you don’t take offense at this. But I will pray that God does reveal himself to you, somehow.
No offense taken! :)
Please don’t fall into the “Easter presents” basket. Wal-Mart and Hallmark have already hijacked Christmas.
I mean, I’m an atheist but I still think commercialization of erstwhile religious festivals is still repugnant.
Keep candy in Easter.
I would assume that as a child of the Bin Laden family, Osama would have had a very good education. What hath Wikipedia to say?
[Citations stripped out for legibility]
“Again, leaving aside that there are parts of the world today where that would be accepted as plausible, parthenogenesis is observed in other species, including very occasionally mammals; it is possible in principle in humans. ”
Well, ‘Nope, if parthenogenesis had happened to Mary, Jesus would be *female*!!! (That how the genetics go down, my friend!)
@DorkMan
Mmm! Correct, we are immortal, that is why we have the desire in our hearts.
We were created immortal, in the image of God, to spend eternity with Him.
True our bodies will die and decay, that is the result of sin, but not our soul that is immortal.
At the return of Christ all will be raised from the dead, as He was, and judged by Him. We will be raised in our bodies; that is, if we are dead when Jesus returns!
But then that could be tomorrow! And just like Noah, when all were carrying on as usual.
Then, were do we spend the rest of eternity? With God or without Him?
Blessings
“we are immortal, that is why we have the desire in our hearts”
This is not a logical conclusion. Desiring something doesn’t make it more or less true. “Humans are immortal” is one possible explanation of “humans desire immortality”.”Immortality would be awesome” is another possible explanation. Evidence suggests that humans are mortal, so the former possibility is improbable.
“True our bodies will die and decay, that is the result of sin”
I am pretty sure bodies die and decay even if you do absolutely nothing.
“At the return of Christ all will be raised from the dead, as He was”
That is a fantastic claim. How do you know? Because someone told you? How do they know? Someone told them? How do… wait.
(How do I italicize things? [i]Brackets?[/i] Carats? /Slashes?/)
@markbey
sorry I have offended you, didn’t mean to, let me explain.
The Holy Spirit illuminates God’s word to us. He helps us to understand what is written. We understand through His wisdom. Without His help then we can only understand through our own wisdom. When we do not accept Him then we limit our understanding to our own wisdom and not His. Calling the Bible a locked book means that it can only be fully illuminated with His help. It was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I admit other religions do have their own holy books and their teachings are not to be ignored, they are good and useful. The difference with the Bible is that it is ‘living’ and illuminated as I said above.
“How can you be sure that god extends his invitation to everyone”
‘…who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.’ ( 1 Tim 2:4)
Sorry to keep giving references to the Bible, but it is difficult not too when we are discussing God’s word!
“How can you be sure it is the christian god”
Sorry, it’s that word faith again. Not sure though who else would want all to be saved? If we relate this to other religions then each has its different methods of being saved. But then in none of them did their god die for them to make it possible. They have to earn it by their own merits. Any one with logic knows that this is impossible. Have you tried just doing the right thing every day, did you manage it?
” Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mark 11:24″
This means that the prayer / request is in line with God’s will. God will give us what we need, but we must pray in faith and in accordance with His word. Nothing in prayer should contradict Scripture. That word ‘faith’ again!
“contradict your statement above…also was Paul being humble”
First, we can pray to God, but we will receive the revelation of Jesus when God ordains it and not us. Also if our heart is not right then that may delay that moment. And again we need to pray in accordance with His word.
Secondly, Paul was already humble. Paul already believed in God, in fact he was probably the most zealous person for God, so much that he hated Christians and his mission was to wipe them out. As a light flashed from heaven he fell to the ground, believing this was God. He was right, it was, and he was humble enough then. Just that He did not realise previous to this that Jesus and God were one. The revelation, the same revelation that comes to all Christians at conversion, convicts them of their sin and they humble themselves before Him.
“If I became a christian exactly what does that mean. What gives you the right to question the fact that I was a christian.”
Because we are brought up in a Christian family does not mean we are a Christian. Same a Buddhist or other can be that in name but not in practice.
I commented on the fact that you said you became a Christian. My statement was that then you must have found God, but you say you didn’t.
I considered myself a Christian for 45 years. I was always searching for God but never found Him. I was brought up in a Christian family, but gave up expecting to go to heaven because I felt I wasn’t good enough. It was only 7 years ago that I had a similar experience to Paul – as my wife did later and my son did after that and then my daughter did a few years later – that I knew that all my life I had thought I was a Christian, but now realised that this was in name only.
On one occasion about 10 years ago I rejected what I knew about God and told Him to get out of my life, I could do better without His interference, and that was that, as far as I was concerned, but it wasn’t.
What I never knew, and this was the key, was that I didn’t know why Jesus had died, I knew the stories, but not the truth. This was the revelation, this was what opened my eyes, and this came not from reading or talking but as I was sat in my room alone and the Holy Spirit revealed this truth to me and I turned to Christ.
So what I said to you was in love and not arrogance or judgement. MY prayer for you is that you do not give up searching. God promises that those who seek Him will find Him.
I do not have the answer why God waits, or doesn’t respond straight away, I wish I did. My mother commented afterwards that she had been praying for me for over 20 years. I hear stories of people praying for people to be saved all their life and it happens just before they die. In one story someone prayed for 65 years. Other stories of immediate answers to pray. I do not know why, only God does.
Remember Saul hated Jesus, but God met with Him on that road. God’s ways are not our ways.
We live in a broken world and we are held in the power of sin. There is a constant battle going on between God’s kingdom and satan’s kingdom on earth. The victor is Jesus, that is conclusive, but the skirmishes will continue until Christ returns.
I see prayer as filling a bowl in the heavens, along with angels and incense, then prayer cause the bowl to overflow and God’s power strikes places on earth, same as a lightening strike, specific and to the point. ( Rev. 8:3-5)
Blessings
I believe I did tell you….I suppose if there was a label it would be New Age. I get my philosophies from more than one source. The combination of both Christianity and Buddhism would be a good starting place I suppose.
I enjoy exploring different types of religions, because, as I said, I find truth in several denominations. I also rely on personal experience, especially pertaining to the afterlife, and the soul, but I haven’t mentioned that much because “personal experience” doesn’t fly in this thread, and thats ok. I do not judge anyone, nor the way they come to their respective conclusions regarding religion.
atucbones
you lelft quite a bit i am going to respond peace by peace. i hope we can have a honest and straightforward dialogue. i am very interested in finding out where you are coming from. if you want me to address a particular point, just let me know. also i would really appreacitiate if you would do the same, if ask for you to address a specific point i would appreciated if you did. i address your comment below it.
… The Holy Spirit illuminates God’s word to us. He helps us to understand what is written. We understand through His wisdom. Without His help then we can only understand through our own wisdom.
when you say understand i don’t really know what you mean because there are 30,000 different gods there are also several other hundred types of Christianity some of which claim you ( ucbones) are going to roast in hell if you don’t believe there interpretation of what is written. . I’m talking catholics, jehovah witness, etc.
what you are asking me to do is to make a choice of which my eternal soul depends, other flavor of Christians are also asking me to make that choice. i have thousands of different religions including competing Christian philosophies telling me if i don’t specifically believe in their specific interpretation of what is written i am going to roast in hell for eternity.
how do i know which christian philosophy is the correct one to choose. if you are going to claim i am going to burn in hell or wont get to heaven based on believing in a specific interpretation of gods written word. then you should have to prove how your interpretation is more valid than other sects of Christianity that make competing claims.
i guess a major reason I’m not buying what your selling is i got thousands of competing interpretations of christianity alone telling me i must belive or suffer.
it doesn’t bother you that your loving, all knowing and powerful god is forcing you to make a choice upon which the joy of heaven and the pain and suffering of hell rest.
doesn’t it bother you, that your all loving and powerful god ask you to make a choice between competing claims of christianity.
doesn’t it bother you that a loving and just god would ask you to make this overwhelmingly consequential decision without any proof or evidence as to which competing claim of christianity is correct.
if god allows all of this misunderstanding about his holy word why is it you consider him illuminating.
.
… I admit other religions do have their own holy books and their teachings are not to be ignored, they are good and useful. The difference with the Bible is that it is ‘living’ and illuminated as I said above. ….
what do you mean the bible is living.
what do you mean by it is illuminated, what exactly do mean.
how is the bible any more living and illuminated than other useful holy books.
I’m not trying to be rude i just would like to fully understand what you are trying to communicate.
…. It was only 7 years ago that I had a similar experience to Pa …..
well i experienced nothing, I’m hoping you can provide more general evidence for your beliefs other than your personal experience.
… But then in none of them did their god die for them to make it possible. They have to earn it by their own merits. Any one with logic knows that this is impossible. …..
yeah but this comes from your bible, non christian believers could just shoot up their religious rhetoric and it would mean exactly the same as your statement here.
so what if other religions dont have the exact same parellels or motiffs.etc it is a fact that christianity is awlfullly siimilar to other religions that came before it.
also how could you assure me that if i were to study and ask the lord to reveal himself to me that i would pick the correct brand of christianity.
your beliefs have some gallactic sized holes in them that do not add up. for example.
many different christians sects make exclusive competing claims as to heaven and hell.
the catholics, jehovao witnesses, seventh day adventist, etc all cannot be right.
exactly how do you know you are picking the right brand of christianity.
…..” Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. Mark 11:24″
This means that the prayer / request is in line with God’s will. God will give us what we need, but we must pray in faith and in accordance with His word. Nothing in prayer should contradict Scripture. That word ‘faith’ again! …….
so once again it is left up to your and others interpretation of what this statement means.
what exactly is gods will and how do we know what gods will is.
catholics, jehovah witness and seventh day Adventist all pray in order to have scripture revealed to them and all of them make exclusive claims about who gets to heaven or goes to hell.
since according to christian theology i am making a choice that will take me to either heaven or hell.
what convincing argument can you make to assure me that if i were to adopt an interpretation of gods word similar to yours that the catholic, jehovah witness, seventh day Adventist god wont send me to hell for choosing the wrong god.
i see no evidence to distinguish between competing brands of Christianity or even totally different religions for that matter.
why should i believe what you are saying instead of a catholic or jehovah witness or a seventh day Adventist.
” Secondly, Paul was already humble. Paul already believed in God, in fact he was probably the most zealous person for God, so much that he hated Christians and his mission was to wipe them out. ”
OK I pulled the quotes from the bible that mention Paul’s conversion no where in any of the verses dose it state that Paul was humble.
” 9 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
Acts 22:6–16 (NKJV)
6 “Now it happened, as I journeyed and came near Damascus at about noon, suddenly a great light from heaven shone around me. 7 And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?’ 8 So I answered, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He
…
12 “While thus occupied, as I journeyed to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at midday, O king, along the road I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who journeyed with me. 14 And when we all had
Acts 26:12–18 (NKJV) ”
What exactly do you base your statement that Paul was humble on.
I admitted that the only evidence id my life and belief, that is not saying I don’t have evidence…
God has made himself known through His word and made the final reveal through His son, I am not sure what other proof is needed, If you are looking for a miracle, the kind of miracles that were performed as noted in the holy scriptures, you are looking in the wrong place…
I believe that it’s a miracle that we are still alive today, every day that blood flows through my body is a miracle, every life tht is saved from cancer, (I am referring to the situations were doctors give a person months to live and all of the sudden without any medical explanation, that person is healed)….
Miracles are still being performed today, God still heals, still saves souls, still reveals himself through his word and still answers prayers that are lifted up with a sincere heart..
BlessYa
“God has made himself known through His word and made the final reveal through His son, I am not sure what other proof is needed…”
What other “proof” is needed? Well, none……. that is, if one is already convinced that the bible is true because it says so. In other words, your “proof” will not likely convince the skeptics here, and certainly, not the former christians here. You’ll have to do better…..much, much better.
Yes, funny isnt it, his wit and humor is a hoot. I really enjoy his struggle with Christians though, he continue to question God and his existence, they probably won’t ever write into the show that he discovers the truth, but it’s amazing on some of the shows that he actually considers the unexplainable as God at work….
CRUNCHY!
Harleigh,
It’s funny that you mention our culture in this statement as if our culture (or western culture, I believe) is the only culture that acknowledges Gods word, maybe I am misreading your post, but if not, remember, other cultures (China for instance) has a booming Christian culture, in the midst of heavy persecution there are a growing number of believers there…
also Sudan, South Korea, Vietnam…..
This is usually the case, trials, and persecution brings revival, an awakening if you would, people start seeking God in the midst of great hardship and pain..
I saw this after 911 and I see it now in the midst of massive job loss and a severe recession…
seek Him.
What has what you wrote have to do with proving the existence of a God? Hell, by your logic, Santa Claus exists, as every Christmas, children write their little letters to that fat fool in the North Pole, and local news stations across the country track Santa’s path. Therefore, Santa exists! Praises.
Doug,
Yes, I am aware that Christianity has spread to other parts of the world and has had an obvious impact on the cultures it has invaded.
I wanted to point out that certain portions of the Bible are incoherent and often insane nonsense but are not recognized as such because they are familiar to the cultures that accept them as normal.
Similar mad ravings from other religious traditions, if seriously preached by someone in a culture where they are unknown and therefore unrecognized, could very well land force such a deluded person into that culture’s equivalent of a madhouse.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
LRA,
Thanks for the links, I checked out some of the links on your site references, that’s some heavy stuff, lots of reading required…this one in particular stood out to me:
Anatomical parahomology
Only thing I am having trouble with is, they are siting these evolutionary ideas using animal evolution and there is no real proof of this…for instance, there is no proof today that this is occurring, or has ever occurred..each species has it’s own unique characteristics, there is no historical evidence that animal species have morphed into complete other species, the only thing that exists to support this theory is more man made theory…
Doug– thanks for asking an excellent question!!!
Anatomical parahomology means that the anatomical features seen across species are very similar (they are para-homo-logos). On the molecular level, we see conservation of homology (similarity) in species the closer they are related. There is a TON of evidence for this and it is observable, especially in fast replicating species. Further, speciation (animals morphing into other species) is absolutely observable. The definition of species is whether or not two animals can breed together.
I think we’d both agree that a female chihuahua and a male borzoi or great dane are both dogs, but they are effectively speciated because a little chihuahua can’t produce great dane puppies. If that ain’t historical evidence, I don’t know what is!!!
LRA,
But isnt the big debate (eveolution vs creation) over the fact that we are not morphing into complete different species….
for instance the ape man is not from the same gene make up of the human man, evolution tries to prove that they are evolving and one in the same?
I guess I need clarification here….
“there is no proof today that this is occurring”
False. But it takes a really short lifespan/lifecycle for evolution to be observed. It has been observed in fruit flies in laboratories.
“there is no historical evidence that animal species have morphed into complete other species”
I am not equipped to dispute this statement, but I submit that one of Charles Darwin’s hypotheses was that there is no “real” distinction between species and varieties, that the distinction is a man-made construct where there is no actual distinction. That is, species are just well-marked varieties. The topic “what defines a species?” is an ongoing discussion in biology, and experts have disagreed on taxonomic designations since the inception of taxonomy.
Doug, I think you read wayyyyy too much into “the Word of God” without ever taking into consideration that it was written by ill-informed uneducated or miseducated individuals given over to superstition who often had agendas of their own to promote. Given that — and given the long history of translations, retranslations, interpretations and the multiple conventions and conferences hosted by biased religious groups, sovereigns and other rulers to determine what books, chapters and verses should and should not be included as part of the whole — the whole thing is unreliable at best. Yet you and so many others steadfastly hold to and proclaim your belief that “The Holy Bible is the Divine and infallible inspired Word of God.”
Frankly, my friend, you have wasted the last 20 years of your life studying an inaccurate and inscrutable document for all the wrong reasons. Your values are skewed, and your knowledge system is tainted. You seem to be a really nice guy, and when you die someday, you will simply be a dead guy who was nice and who wasted a lot of time and energy during his lifetime studying and following a bunch of crap that meant absolutely nothing.
And yet it was fine for the OT patriarchs and kings to have multiple wives and even *gasp* concubines!!!!
I believe I read somewhere in the Bible of a man taking refuge in a Christian’s home. When the mob came and demanded the man taking refuge, the husband gave them his wife instead, knowing full well what they would do to her.
Must be how Christ loved the church.
… Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
Ephesians 5:24-26 ….
so who do hermaphrodites marry.
Doug:
“as far as the way things were practiced in eastern cultures in those days (OT) I believe that the people of the day were in the dark, God wasn’t finished revealing himself until he made the ultimate reveal in His Son Jesus.”
By saying things like this, you are only weakening your case. There are things in the OT that are still found in the NT, and again, I believe someone mentioned previously the fact that it is unlikely God would have his prophets write scripture for the OT, only to turn around and have it abolished by his son JC. It fits into the mold of man covieniently changing things they want to justify. Keep in mind, I’m speaking only of the Bible, not religion in general.
An inconvenient fact for the misogynist. I wonder, has anyone ever tried to advance an argument along the lines of a “holy Y chromosome”? I mean, this must’ve come up before, no? Jesus, not having a human father, would have a hard time being male, having an XO genotype.
Yes- I argued that a few weeks ago. I think it was devysciple that brought it up!
Anyhow, and XO genotype is a female. A OY genotype is lethal (meaning one must have an X chromosome to be viable).
The new tagline:
“With God, anything is possible. Including a penis.”
I don’t see the problem. If you believe the Bible, God magically poofed at least one human Y chromosome into existence. Why not a second?
“Sacrelicious”–now that’s a really GREAT coinage!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Look, a “real” Christian is a Christian who believes much the way you do. A “false” Christian is a Christian whose beliefs you don’t respect.
The only meaningful way to identify a Christian is to ask a person if he or she IS one. If the answer is “yes,” then you have a Christian. If the answer is “no,” then you don’t.
Similarly, a “true” religion is a religion you like. A “false” religion is one that you do not like.
It is useless to try to distinguish “true” religions from “false” ones because they are all built on foundations of idiotic superstition.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
God = Jesus = Word = God is just as trivial as saying 6 = 3+3 = 9-3 = 6, though these various ways of describing 6 are much more meaningful because they apply to a number that can be used to describe a specific quantity of separated things.
Saying God = Jesus = Word comes very close to saying ensculcation = blostinence = floxinality = ensculcation.
Oh, there are three other things I must share with you at this point: Water flows downhill, fish swim in water, and birds fly in the sky.
One final thing: water is defined by one special quality: wetness.
Awesome!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Romans 1:21 (New International Version)
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
no offense.
If the scrolls were written prior to the birth of Christ, could it mean that they were talking about one of the other myth stories, and not Christianity at all???!!!
Open you mind! Be a skeptic for once and think!!!
I was not aware that the DSS mention Jesus or Christianity. In fact, I have heard is stated authoritatively that the DSS have nothing at all to do with Christianity. Could you please cite?
“Some scholars have argued that the scrolls …”
Yes, this is Norman Golb’s theory. There are probably a dozen others. Golb believes that the documents are too heterogeneous to have been produced by a single sect. But note that the theory does not argue with when the documents were produced, only with who produced them. In Golb’s theory, the DSS were a cache of manuscripts produced over a long stretch of time by numerous factions.
Well, it seems that SOME of the scrolls were written before, and some other after. I can guess that some of the scrolls referring to the OT were written before, and the scrolls speaking about Jesus were written after. No surprises here.
But as you know, the version of the Bible we have today is a compendium of other books, picking some and forgetting others. Probably there are some more contradictions about the life of Jesus in those scrolls that weren’t reproduced in the Bible. Let’s wait till they are translated
well here’s a simple reply…
That man was a coward. Man is capable of sinning. Always has been, always will. Man has free will. He can choose righteousness or un-righteousness. Death or Life. That’s what is so awesome about God, he didn’t create a bunch of robots.
You turn things upside down, as if the potter were thought to be like the clay! Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, “He did not make me”? Can the pot say of the potter, “He knows nothing”?
Isaiah 29:15-17
The Dead Sea Scrolls are not the only finding of ancient manuscripts. The importance and significance was in finding support for newer versions of the Biblical Text. Isaiah for example, was found in Qumran. The Essenes were a sect devoted to the purity of Judaism. They lived in the caves and country side. It is theorized that the true and rightful Chief Priest would have been with the Essenes.
The scrolls represent an important contribution to the written record and later texts which ultimately were included in the Cannon. It isn’t the only find like this. Most notably the Nag Hamdi scrolls were found in the desert in Egypt by some poor brothers. The stepped through the earth and into a buried clay pot. Sadly, the brothers needed to cook their meal so they burned a couple of books to do so. Included in the pots were original biblical manuscripts and parts of Homer’s work. It is believed that these are documents saved by the scholars of Alexandria before the burning of the library.
You could devote a lifetime to studying either document…it is an unbelievable find.
I believe the more you connect the dots between the past and present, the easier it is to see God’s evidence.
“I believe the more you connect the dots between the past and present, the easier it is to see God’s evidence.”
Some of these dots are pretty wild. I think it’s a stretch to say that you can connect them to anything meaningful.
For example, the Nag Hammadi text include texts from a Zoroastrian Christian sect who viewed Jesus as a new incarnation of Zoroaster. There’s a text that seems to say that Jesus was really the second coming of the Jewish Priest Melchizedek.
These texts point to the incredible diversity found within the early Christian movement, just as the DSS gives us a hint as to how complex and diverse Second Temple Judaism could get. It casts doubt on the church history of Eusebius, which tries to draw a clear line between the teachings of Jesus and the 4th Century church. Apparently there were a lot of side trips along the way.
Well, so why is this man -yes, I don’t remeber the passage but it’s on the Bible- either rewarded by god, or his story explained as an example of a good jew? He doesn’t appear in the bible as a coward, but as a good believer.
Come on doug, the bible is a bad example for our nowadays morals, specially referring to women
Did you notice the difference though when Christ entered the scene (I am referring from OT to NT), he didn’t degrade women, he sat with women, spoke with women, ate with women, actually had women by his side and ministered with them…
So, what I am trying to point out is Christ is the example, not what culture expects, not what seems politically correct at the time, Not even how you were raised. Christ is the example of true love in marriage and friendship with others.
OT has many bad examples of life, that’s the point, also shows mans journey to discover truth (Ecclesiastes for instance) Not every word is to be taken as “follow this my son and you will be blessed” the Bible is full of examples of man’s depravity.
Consider this, the lineage of Jesus Christ was a bunch of messed up people with frailties and sin, why did He choose that lineage to be born?
Did he have any choice? All men are sinful in nature, Christ transcended sin, hell and death, that was the final statement!!
Pink Marshmellow Peeps for everybody!!!
doug,
Then you know not the lesson of the story if you say the man was a coward. The lesson is that the man that took refuge was a disciple of God and the man that took him in was protecting him by appeasing the mob by giving over his wife. In the Bible, the act was considered grand, actually, for the man to give over his wife to be raped, fondled, and whatever else the mob would do to her, in order to protect the disciple.
Ardubaie,
This is the context as i read it, Lot was attempting to divert the crazy men outside and protect God’s angels (those two men). Sodom an Gomorah was about to be destroyed by God because of it’s sin, the angels came to warn Job and his family. If you will read the next chapter you will see that lot also became drunk and had sex with his daughters (something I see as a greater issue) as in your reference it doesnt say that the people outside were successful in taking Lots daughters..I believe God protected them through this.
Anyhow, my point is STILL that God uses, frail, broken and sinful men to accomplish his purposes…just like today…here’s the text:
Genesis 19
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”
“No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”
6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”
9 “Get out of our way,” they replied. And they said, “This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.
10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.
12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry [a] his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.
15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”
16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the LORD was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, “Flee for your lives! Don’t look back, and don’t stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!”
18 But Lot said to them, “No, my lords, [b] please! 19 Your [c] servant has found favor in your [d] eyes, and you [e] have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can’t flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I’ll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn’t it? Then my life will be spared.”
21 He said to him, “Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it.” (That is why the town was called Zoar. [f] )
23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot’s wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
27 Early the next morning Abraham got up and returned to the place where he had stood before the LORD. 28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.
29 So when God destroyed the cities of the plain, he remembered Abraham, and he brought Lot out of the catastrophe that overthrew the cities where Lot had lived.
Lot and His Daughters
30 Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father.”
33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I lay with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab [g] ; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi [h] ; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.
@markbey
Thanks mark, I’ll get back to you soon.
Yeah…what’s up with that? I’d say the same thing about an atheist rolling up to a Christian blog and engaging in a Lord of the Rings length debate with the denizens of that blog about the existence of their god. Who are you trying to convince? After a while, you can only go so far before it becomes frakkin’ redundant, and, frankly, idiotic.
But then again, this is the Internet, where the Someone Is Wrong On The Internet syndrome is epidemic.
Sorry I dont agree, Sudam Husein was a mass murderer, I believe the original intent was to free people from oppression. You can talk to Iraqians about that one…
As far as present purpose, they are just cleaning up the place, providing food, water, housing and such, I don’t believe there was any theft taking place here…
Look, Olaf, the Indonesians systematically murdered the Timorese, but we didn’t give a shit because about this because we wanted ongoing access to Indonesia’s low-sulfur crude.
In international affairs, economic interests almost always trump moral considerations.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Look, Doug, the Indonesians systematically murdered the Timorese, but we didn’t give a shit because about this because we wanted ongoing access to Indonesia’s low-sulfur crude.
In international affairs, economic interests almost always trump moral considerations.
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Turks systematically kill Kurds, (maybe not so systematically as Hussein did), but they are valuable allies and they will be in the European Union pretty soon. Indeed, political reasons are not bounded to moral
@Mark bey
“what do you mean the bible is living.”
You are right in your questions, they are good questions and I can only reply to you as best I can. I cannot prove them to you. For that you must seek yourself.
If I speak to another Christian they will agree because they know the same and have experienced the same thing. So I will not insult you by just giving you glib remarks that other Christians will just nod their head at and agree.
All books are written by man for man, with the exception of the Bible. God wrote the Bible. It is His word and not man’s. True, man wrote the words by quill and ink, but it was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, speaking inspiration to them. The Bible was written over centuries, it consists of 66 books, by 40 people over 1600 years, yet it all holds together, that in itself must be some evidence?
Prophecies written hundreds of years before the event have proved true. This is surely a sign of authenticity. Many people can claim to be prophets but the truth is whether the prophecies come true. In the Bible’s case, all the prophecies of God have been proven, to date.
“what do you mean by it is illuminated, what exactly do mean.”
I suppose a better word than illuminated is ‘make understandable’.
It is the work of the Holy Spirit to illuminate God’s word to His people. This is why it is ‘living’ because the Holy Spirit is constantly at work in this.
Just because a Christian reads the Bible does not mean He understands everything in one go. ‘Living’ does not mean that the Bible is being added to, but that it is constantly being made relevant and understandable.
“how is the bible any more living and illuminated than other useful holy books.”
Before I came to know Jesus, the Bible to me was just a book, a story. I had read parts of it, but mostly I could not understand it. Later I never read it all because it was boring. In fact I found it irrelevant to my life. It was in effect a dead book, there was nothing there that was useful for me, in fact I found most of it just laws, don’t do this, etc. Also why should God want people to sacrifice things and kill people for disobeying Him?
As you claim, what I had heard about God just didn’t seem to fit in with what I had read. It didn’t make sense. I felt I had to try and drag myself up to what it commanded in the Bible and I couldn’t.
It wasn’t until I came to know Jesus that I managed to pick up the Bible again. I was ashamed of reading it at first because of what people might think, so I would hide it under the table if anyone came into the room.
But suddenly I found that the Bible had become understandable. Things I read seemed to have life in them, they seemed to mean something. It all started to make sense.
I thought well, maybe this is just excitement at finding something new, like picking up a book about a topic you are interested in, it is exciting at first, then once read is put back on the shelf.
The Bible was not like this, it was exciting continuously, never stopping. I have been reading it for years now and never tire, there is always something new. I have read it from cover to cover, studying books, mediated, etc.
I expect that most other holy books are read for religious reasons, the Bible is a relationship with God.
That is how I can best describe it. I cannot prove it, how can I. Same as I cannot prove to you that God exists. God has shown it, we just have to believe it
Blessings
Elliott- perhaps you’re here because iron sharpens iron (to borrow a christian phrase!)?
“Constructing a viable identity for myself as an atheist is part of the healing process.”
There has been research done that shows that people are wired to be sucked into religion and other irrational things. We want an explanation for what happens in life and tend to accept any reason, even those that are irrational. Thus it is that those who are still embedded in religion should be seen as not having evolved for evolution would mean that the person would want a rational reason for what happens rather than accept an irrational.
If you look at the history of religion, the first religions were animistic, where many deities were worshiped. Then they started to move towards having only two or three gods: the sun, the moon, and earth. Then only two, like Wicca today. Then finally one. What is the next step of that evolution? No gods or goddesses. Some people have evolved to that point. Others have not. As an Atheist, I am only waiting for the time when all will have evolved to understanding that there is no God or Goddess.
As for you comment regarding constructing an identity, there are many people who need religion in order to do so. Religion supplies many things to individuals: guidance as to how to act, a reason for living, hope when they die, community in which to be with other like yourself, and so on. I have found that Atheists are much more liable to think outside the box because they have no ties to a belief system. They also are much better read than many Christians because leaders in the Christian organization tend to give lists of books that are forbidden to church members. Some of those books are the most enlightening books around. That is why religion does not want their followers to read them.
@ ucbones
” You are right in your questions, they are good questions and I can only reply to you as best I can. I cannot prove them to you. For that you must seek yourself.
If I speak to another Christian they will agree because they know the same and have experienced the same thing. ”
How can you say this when Jehovah witness, seventh day Adventist, catholics and other flavors of christian all have competing beliefs of who gets to heaven or not.
How can you say this when christians have had wars for centuries amgongst themselves and have split into thousands of different sects with their own understanding/interpretation of gods word.
” All books are written by man for man, with the exception of the Bible. God wrote the Bible. It is His word and not man’s. True, man wrote the words by quill and ink, but it was under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, speaking inspiration to them. The Bible was written over centuries, it consists of 66 books, by 40 people over 1600 years, yet it all holds together, that in itself must be some evidence? ”
If god wrote the bible or it was written under the guidance of god and god is perfect then why are their to different creation stories.
” Genesis 1:25-27
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image…. So God created man in his own image. ”
” Genesis 2:18-19
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. ”
The two different creation stories as well as the other errors in the bible doesn’t that bother you.
It doesn’t bother you that a perfect being, who is going to send you to hell based on whether or not you choose the correct interpretation of his word doesn’t provide enough evidence to know whether or not the correct interpretation of his word is a catholic, jehovah witness or Methodist interpretation
” Prophecies written hundreds of years before the event have proved true. This is surely a sign of authenticity. Many people can claim to be prophets but the truth is whether the prophecies come true. In the Bible’s case, all the prophecies of God have been proven, to date. ”
I wasn’t aware of these fulfilled prophecy please list some of the prophecies that have come through.
Please be clear and not vague in the prophecies listed in the bible you claim have been proven.
Would these goodies from the bible not qualify as false prophecies.
1) Those who do as God says will never be infertile (neither will their cows!) and will never get sick. 7:14-15
2) God says that Solomon’s kingdom will last forever. It didn’t of course. It was entirely destroyed about 400 years after Solomon’s death, never to be rebuilt. 7:13, 16
3) These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20
Do you still stand by your statement that all of gods prophecies have been proven true?
Yes or no.
” It is the work of the Holy Spirit to illuminate God’s word to His people. This is why it is ‘living’ because the Holy Spirit is constantly at work in this.
Just because a Christian reads the Bible does not mean He understands everything in one go. ”
1) who are gods people.
2) why are some people gods people and some people not gods people isn’t god the creator of all humans.
3) Using your definition of living Muslims and Jews could make the same absolute and exclusive claim about thier holy books and you couldnt prove them wrong.
4) why is your loving god hiding and playing coy when he is going to send people to hell if they don’t find him.
5) why does your loving god inspire a document that causes so much confusion even amongst people who believe in him.
please answer the following question
6) why is your god asking me to choose a specific interpretation of his word from competing claims of that specific interpretation and without giving us any proof that isnt subjective.
@ ucbones
” I expect that most other holy books are read for religious reasons, the Bible is a relationship with God.
That is how I can best describe it. I cannot prove it, how can I. Same as I cannot prove to you that God exists. God has shown it, we just have to believe it ”
If you are going to say the bible is a relationship with god then imply that other holy books aren’t then I think it would only be fair for you to give a bases as to why you believe the bible is a relationship with god but the Jewish or Muslim holy books aren’t.
What is your reason for this statement is it the way god makes you feel.
From what I have read so far your argument is based on your feelings and is 100% circular.
All religions can use the same reasoning as you did to legitimize the beliefs they hold.
Two specific questions. I
1) If I were to adopt your belief system how do you know that I would be picking the correct one amongst all of the different forms of Christianity.
2) What I am specifically asking is this, why would your loving and perfect god force me (or anyone else) to make a choice for salvation when their are competing christian claims of how to attain salvation and when your perfect god is refusing to present evidence of whether or not Catholicism, baptist etc is the correct understanding of his word.
@Markbey
“Two specific questions. I
1) If I were to adopt your belief system how do you know that I would be picking the correct one amongst all of the different forms of Christianity.
There is only one Christianity, but many denominations.
My faith is based on God’s word and I have not found anything yet in my faith that contradicts scripture.
If you said that you were going to become a JW for instance then I would say don’t, because they deny the divinity of Christ amongst other things. That contradicts God’s word.
2) What I am specifically asking is this, why would your loving and perfect god force me (or anyone else) to make a choice for salvation when their are competing christian claims of how to attain salvation and when your perfect god is refusing to present evidence of whether or not Catholicism, baptist etc is the correct understanding of his word.
God would not force you to make a choice about this. He would expect you to search for Him and He would honour that committment.
There is only one claim to salvation that is Jesus Christ. He is the only way to the Father. He is the only way to be saved from God’s judgement. There is no other name under which men can be saved.
Catholics, Baptists etc all believe the same. You need to make sure that their teaching lead to Christ and do not contradict God’s word.
Blessings
@Markbey
“1) who are gods people.”
Those who believe in Him, put their trust in Him and love Him.
“2) why are some people gods people and some people not gods people isn’t god the creator of all humans.”
God created all, but some choose to reject Him and turn away from His word.
“3) Using your definition of living Muslims and Jews could make the same absolute and exclusive claim about thier holy books and you couldnt prove them wrong.”
I said God’s word is living because it is written by Him. Other holy books were not written by Him.
“4) why is your loving god hiding and playing coy when he is going to send people to hell if they don’t find him.”
God has fully revealed Himself to all people. It is called the Bible and Jesus fulfilled all this. It is man’s desire to seek Him or reject Him.
“5) why does your loving god inspire a document that causes so much confusion even amongst people who believe in him.”
Ask man! God’s message seems very clear to me.
please answer the following question
6) why is your god asking me to choose a specific interpretation of his word from competing claims of that specific interpretation and without giving us any proof that isnt subjective.
God is asking you to turn to Jesus. The competing claims and confusion comes from man and not God.
God: made us and creation, messed up by man’s disobedience, man separated from God, God loves us to died for us that we can be saved and live with Him again. The way to God is through Jesus. Jesus said: ‘It is finished’ because it is. God’s plan was fulfilled through Christ.
Blessings
@Markbey
“Do you still stand by your statement that all of gods prophecies have been proven true?
Yes or no.”
Emphatically, Yes. ( 2 Cor 1:20)
But do not base evidence on this verse, check it, do some research. It’s out there.
@ ardubaie
” I would suggest that you read some books written by Atheists with an open mind before you condemn our non-belief in God. Especially those of you who so ardently wish us Atheist to read the Bible (which I have read at least 4 times now). ”
ardubaie I am on your side I agree with your post and I think religion is just as silly as you do.
After reading this reply, I now see you label yourself as an atheist, yet by suggesting the books you did, specifically “The Field,” it makes me think that you are spiritual. (there is a difference of course, between spirituality and religion) At the very least that you ponder an afterlife, no?
There was an interesting study done that showed that some people are more susceptible to ascribing to a delusion, such as that present by religion, than others. You may want to look it up and read it sometime. Apparently, it must reside with the strong genes while the lack of delusion must reside with the weak genes, given the number of people who believe in religion.
ardubaie,
I don’t believe in religion. Christ is not a religion, Buddhism is a religion, Hinduism is a religion.
as a matter of fact, you will not see the word Christian in the Bible…good reason, Christ’ intent was not for us to follow a bunch of rules and regulations. His intent was for us to follow Him. The disciples knew this, I don’t believe I have read them discussing that they were all going to become Christians and live a new way, they were impacted by Christ himself…
The modern day western church made this into a religion. I believe you should not be conformed to liturgies and practices just because everyone’s doing it that way. We are each responsible for our own actions, God will judge us on that final day according to our life not the “religious group” that we joined…
Reese cups rock!
“as a matter of fact, you will not see the word Christian in the Bible”
Are you sure?
Darkmatter,
No I am not, but I believe that there were changes in the text for some of the modern day translations vs, the original greek and hebrew text, I will look into this further….
thanks for pointing that out to me again.
So did God says He hardened Bill’s heart like you say He shows you?
Are you somehow accusing Bill before you check the bible verses in greek or hebrew in your belief?
Dark Matter,
this passage was not directed specifically at Bill. It was to all the un-believers in the audience. Romans points out here that the heart becomes hardened upon constant rejection of God.
If someone is feeling “accused” through reading this, than maybe God is nudging them…
and that would be a good thing..now go enjoy a nutty buddy.
“If someone is feeling “accused” through reading this, than maybe God is nudging them…
and that would be a good thing..now go enjoy a nutty buddy.”
Maybe someone feel your wrong accusation is based on your belief and not on your knowledge of the bible, not a nudging of God but your lack.
I will check them out!, Thanks for the suggestions. I love to learn.
marry other hermaphrodites?, this is certainly an oddity in human existence, obviously a result of the sin of fallen man, but no clear answer here.
Do you know any hermaphrodites? Are they conflicted with their sexuality? If not maybe they recognize their place in the order of husbands and wives, for instance, in a homosexual relationship (not that I condone this choice) but the partners have a position on which one leads (or a husband) and which one is the submissive partner (the wife), certainly this exists in every relationship, even between friends…Make no mistake though, this is not acceptable to God, He designed the marriage, we as fallen sinful humans are always trying to defy God’s original plan…
Either way it would be wise to do a search on “sexual immorality” to learn more..
Just my thoughts on the issue.
Mark, there is no command to marry.
” Wow. Are you all still at this? It’s time to move on. Once these people get this god thing implanted in their brains as young people it is almost impossible to get it out of them. ”
You are correct but I love correcting ignorant christians, although I it is so lovely when you refute thier comments and the christians (who have god backing them) have nothing to say.
Stan, Do you have a blog? If you do, I hope you will give me its URL. I’d really like to visit it!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Annabella,
Thanks for the input, I can see how you would respond this way. I believe that it proves the theory that God (mostly) exercises judgment in the old testament and (mostly) mercy in the NT. This gives us a glimpse of His character.
I don’t believe that Christ abolished anything in connection with the law. He simply unveiled His original intent of the law. The best way to describe this “it’s like a story unfolding” and the plot thickens….
There are just as many good examples of how God’s prophets brought a message of grace and mercy as well as Christ displaying judgment. Again this gives a snapshot into Gods character.
(this probably sounds like a cop out but)…These truths are hard to explain, as Gods thoughts/ways are far above ours.
Annabella,
you pose some very good questions in your last blog, I will attempt to respond as I understand it, again these are my views not necessarily the views of other believers:
Passages Which Contradict The Concept of Being Born in Sin
(Matthew 18:3) “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Jesus said we must become converted and like little children.
I believe each person reaches a place in their life when they are cognitive of the fact that God is real. I have a son and 3 daughters, each one of them came to an understanding at different ages, all of them were 4 years and older. I believe that small children/infants especially would be immediately in Gods present upon their death.
(Hebrews 12:9) “Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?” Here, God is referred to as the “Father of spirits.” While we inherit our physical attributes from our physical parents, our inner person, our spirit, we get from God. Our spirit is created ‘in His image.” If we are born totally depraved, then we are depraved in body and spirit. If that is the case, then we inherit our sinful, depraved spirits from God! But in God there is no evil, and therefore none to pass on to us.
Consider this: God (Trinity) is made of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. His creation, mankind is also made of three parts, Physical, Mental (or emotional, also referred to as soul), and Spirit. When ones comes to the knowledge of Christ, God intends for him to give the whole person. Again the diliniation between original sin and mans choice to sin is in play here.
(2 Timothy 3:13) “But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.” If we were born totally depraved, then we could not get worse.
Here I see that the scriptures are making a comparison between godly men and evil men…there are many references like this talking about mankind getting worse, sin abounding, world waxing worse before the end comes.
(Luke 8:15) “…these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.” If total depravity is true, then there is no such thing as “good and honest” hearts.
This was a parable, Christs words, using planting/harvesting as a reference, explaining the conditions of the heart, this persons heart was open to the word. And good soil produces good fruit.
One final point. God defines sin for us. It is not something inherited, nor does He define it as something we are born with. Lord, what is sin? God answers: “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.” (1 John 3:4). Sin is not something we are born with; it is something we do. When we break God’s law, we sin. The good news is that the gospel of Christ is the power of God to take away our sins.”
Again original sin verses personal sinning or the act of missing the mark.
Thanks again for the post. Good stuff
I find it odd that Christians commonly, in some situations, claim to know precisely the mind of God (e.g. he disapproves of homosexuality, he is a tripartate godhead, he loves you, etc), and in other situations claim that humans are incapable of understanding the mind of God (e.g. the problem of evil, divine morality, being both vengeful/jealous and merciful/kind, etc). I guess some unknowable things are just more knowable than others.
Rodney,
that’s because God left out a few things so we could have these discussions. (ooh that will get me some grief)
For me, the Spirit fills in the gray areas…I guess I will have a lot of questions when I face the “visible” man in the sky.
Annabella,
Thanks again for the post, thats a lot to chew on, for now, I am noticing that you are using sin as one common explanation. It could sound contradictory or confusing unless you understand that sin has (at least 2) delineations:
Roman Catholic teaching regards original sin as the general condition of sinfulness (lack of holiness) into which human beings are born, distinct from the actual sins that a person commits. It explicitly states that original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.
By what basis do you claim, “John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin were not Deists. They were Atheists?”
LRA, all I can say is Kings David and Solomon were virile if nothing else. Don’t mistake belief for prudishness LRA.
Homer tries for the second last resort of the scoundrel: prayer.
Homer: God, if you really are God, you’ll get me tickets to that game.
[doorbell rings]
Ned: Heidely-ho, neighbor. Wanna go to the game with me? I got two
tick –
Homer: [slams the door] Why do you mock me, O Lord?
Marge: Homer, that’s not God. That’s just a waffle that Bart tossed up
there.
[Marge scrapes it off into Homer's hands]
Homer: I know I shouldn’t eat thee, but — [bites] Mmm, sacrilicious.
– No waffle too sacred, “Homer Loves Flanders”
Consider the possibility that there is no such thing as spirit. No soul. Imaginary.
JT,
I’m in, thanks for facilitating
This is a good discusion to bring up on wildtruth.wordpress.com
Question: didn’t Mohammed (writer of the Quran) get some of his influence for writing from the believers?
@Markbey
“so once again it is left up to your and others interpretation of what this statement means. ”
God’s word is truth. The infallibility lies with man and not with God.
You ask a lot of questions that is good. The answer lies in the Bible though.
If you believe the words in the Bible to be lies and not the truth then where do you go from there?
Surely there must be some reasonable acceptance of the level of authenticity in the Bible.
Mark, if you are searching so much for the truth, have you not tried attending an Alpha or Christianity Explored course.
To know God’s will you need to have a relationship with Him. Same as any human relationship.
“why should i believe what you are saying instead of a catholic or jehovah witness or a seventh day Adventist.”
The way to heaven though lies through Jesus, the cross and His forgiveness of your sins not me or what I say, but what Jesus says.
If someone speaks to you about faith / religion then all their statements should point to Jesus, not to themselves or their church / denomination. Check this out.
In what I have said to you, does all this point to me or my church, or do my comments point to Jesus?
FACT: you will go to heaven if you turn to Jesus, repent of your sins and follow Christ – it is not about what church or denomination. There are false faiths that will lead you away from this and only lead you into their views.
If you reject Christ then you will be under God’s judgement according to His grace.
Blessings
@Markbey
“OK I pulled the quotes from the bible that mention Paul’s conversion no where in any of the verses dose it state that Paul was humble.”
This statement of humility is based on knowledge of the Bible, not from a specific verse.
Saul humbled himself by falling to his knees “And I fell to the ground”.
Would a proud man have fallen to the ground?
God requires man to be humble. Mt 18:4; Micah 6:8; The fruit of a Christian is humility.
Blessings
@Markbey
“well i experienced nothing, I’m hoping you can provide more general evidence for your beliefs other than your personal experience.”
Not all experiences are the same. What matters is the regeneration of a person, repentance in their heart and a decision to follow Jesus.
Experiences vary in different people.
Personal testimony is the most powerful evidence for the truth of Jesus.
“non christian believers..” We are talking about God and Christianity and not other religions. I can only say that Jesus is the way to God. Other religions lead to different gods and they are false. Is that arrogant in our relativistic society? No, because it is the truth.
Jesus is the ‘way, the truth and the life’
“many different christians sects make exclusive competing claims as to heaven and hell.
the catholics, jehovao witnesses, seventh day adventist, etc all cannot be right.
exactly how do you know you are picking the right brand of christianity.”
The answer is above: Jesus is the only way. It is all about Jesus and Him crucified.
I have not picked the right brand of Christianity, I have given my life to Christ. I do not belong to any denominations. I feel denominations break apart the unity of the Church.
The truth is in Jesus. Jesus prayed against denominations in John 17 ( Jn 17:23). Because He knew what would happen.
But it doesn’t really matter what denomination you belong to as long as it does not contradict scripture and leads to false teaching.
Blessings
@Markbey
Hey Mark – it’s been great talking to you. Got to get back to work now.
“brains as young people”
Mm! I spent my whole life away from God – so really my brain is an old person.
Why did God wait so long? Maybe so that now I can talk to people with 40 years experience of living in the dark and murky world.
I made the choice to follow Jesus. If you gave me a million pounds now ( and I mean that ) I would not swop Jesus for a million.
But hey, maybe I am deluded and don’t know what I am talking about, or maybe I do?
Blessings
Miguel, just because people don’t f%cking agree with a “scholar” doesn’t mean that said scholar is not a serious one. ‘Get it? I know what *you* mean, above—however, the angle I’m taking is a DIFFERENT one.
- Oh so you knew what I *meant* the first time around? Then I have to conclude that your initial response was a nonsensical one. Yes, you can argue that you were taking a *different angle* , but your “different angle” has nothing to do with my position that I was stating. So it isn’t my fault I misinterpreted what you said, you idiot.
I’m NOT talking about how others perceive scholars; I’m talking about how they perceive THEMSELVES. There are two ways to approach the matter. Lose your ‘black-n-white’ mentality for two seconds
- And what does that have to do with my previous statement about ‘how others perceive them’!? If you make such a dumb response such as that, Obviously I would misinterpret it to mean that you thought I was implying that they perceive themselves to be ‘un-serious’ – which I wasn’t!
Then you should clarify that point, instead of simply saying all “serious scholars”, etc., etc.. In discussions like these, to do so, from your opponent’s standpoint, it may look as though you are simply labeling those who agree with your position “serious”, and those who disagree, NOT “serious”. ‘Get it?
- No, I don’t see how it could be misconstrued as to mean that. Maybe for someone dumb, it could.
Dolt—whether “boom” takes them “seriously”, or not—that fact does NOT mean they are not serious about what they do. I cannot make it any clearer. There are two ways to look at it.,
- You dolt! I misinterpreted what YOU said as to mean that I, myself perceived those scholars to be un-serious! Your admittedly *different angle* had nothing to with my position, hence my misinterpretation of it! Hence, it was your stupid fault!
” FACT: you will go to heaven if you turn to Jesus, repent of your sins and follow Christ ”
what about people who have never heard of christ?
” God’s word is truth. The infallibility lies with man and not with God. ”
Isnt the fact that man is born imperfect part of gods will.
@Markbey
This is why I am spending my time writing on this blog. To deliver the message.
This is why millions of pounds are spent on bringing the gospel to people around the world.
I reluctantly give a verse, because I know you will not believe it, but this question was answered hundreds of years ago.
Romans 1 18-32 (v.20, ‘men are without excuse’).
Wow!, you will say, that’s not fair. How can He be a loving God then.
I fear that the problem is not so much with those that have not heard, but rather those that have heard and rejected the gospel.
Also we must consider God’s grace, at the return of Christ, towards those that have not heard the gospel. But to say that they will be saved does contradict Scripture. Only God can answer this question.
Blessings
@ Markbey
No!
“Why did God wait so long? Maybe so that now I can talk to people with 40 years experience of living in the dark and murky world.”
Your training is not complete, young Jedi.
@Roger
I am but a youth, a child.
My training becomes more complete with each passing day.
Only be fully complete when the empire is destroyed and Vadar is put in the pit.
But even now the force is within me! ;-)
Is it so with you?
Boy, you’re quite the obtuse little piece of flotsam.
Thanks for your comments Roger, I hope everyone appreciates them on this site. Bye.
Please give us some evidence for your claims.
I agree, but -technically- He’s making intercession for us at at right hand of God, not praying. Just pointing that out before someone else does in a not so nice way. :)
Evidence? Evidence?? She don’t need no stinkin’ evidence! She’s got her Bible! Which is a thoroughly reliable collection of documents written by people who thought the world was flat and that mental illness was a sign of demon possession and that a woman who was menstruating was dirty, dirty, DIRTY!
Evidence? Why, Paula laughs at your desire for evidence!
Oh, by the by, who might Jesus be praying to now that he’s allegedly up in heaven…with himself?
So, Jesus *is* God, but sitting *in the right HAND* of God??? That must be very uncomfortable.
;)
‘Right Hand’ is metaphorical for the power of God. The right hand is described as the symbol of power and authority, as opposed to the left hand which is not.
btw: Is it possible to keep some respect in these posts?
Your choice is not to believe there is a God, okay that’s fine. No one is trying to force you to accept that there is.
btw: Supposing the Bible is accurate and the word of God then how does this verse fit with you.
2 Cor 4:4 ‘…the god[satan]of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving…’
Wouldn’t that perhaps authenticate why we are having these discussions.
And, if this is true, I wonder why he [satan] has done that??
Blessings
Blesings
The context of this verse means that, as the apostles suffered for their faith, their witness, through the things they had to endure, it meant that others found life in Christ.
Yes, satan is to blame for deceiving mankind and for not allowing them to see the truth of the gospel.
But, that power to blind has been broken. 2 Cor. 3:16
Blessings
“btw: Is it possible to keep some respect in these posts?”
Don’t worry. You have my respect, ucbones :)
btw: Is it possible to keep some respect in these posts?
Oh, quit whining and present some concrete evidence of your sky daddy.
There’s a difference between whining and asking for respect, Roger.
I did not mean respect for me. I don’t mind taking part in any discussion about my faith. I meant respect for what we are discussing. Respect for other people on this blog. Respect for their views.
“btw: Supposing the Bible is accurate and the word of God then how does this verse fit with you.”
Now you blindly say it yourself.
“But, that power to blind has been broken.”
also,
Can’t sleep so i am blogging…
If you understand that the Bible explains the creation of man and woman, God created Adam and Eve. They did not pro-create themselves. And don’t ask me if they had belly buttons.
The Bible teaches that we are all decendants of Adam and Eve. So, for thousands of years we have been pro-creating. God forms the human soul. Man is responsible for the fleshly parts. Obviously, this line of reasoning doesnt deny that God created and designed the complex human body.
Ex: Complexity – For instance, scientists are still trying to get their arms around the complexity of the human eye.
LOOK, DOUG, THE STORY OF ADAM AND EVE IS NOTHING BUT CREATION MYTHOLOGY. THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE THE BIBLE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT BIOLOGY AND EVOLUTION..
MOST OF WHAT IS IN THE BIBLE IS A CROCK OF SHIT!
AND YOU ARE STILL A DISGUSTING HOMOPHOBIC BIGOT!!!
Harleigh Kyson Jr.
Actually, we aren’t. We know exactly how the eye works on a structural and molecular level and we know how it evolved.
A smarty pants indeed, you are LRA. How long did you go to college? 20 years? You remind me of a text book. Except you can think for yourself, of course. And you’d probably be hard to fit into a locker.