Todd Bentley, Yet Another Faith Fraud

todd-bentleyWorld Magazine, a conservative Christian publication, investigated Todd Bentley, the faith healer who attracted tens of thousands in Lakeland, FL. He was pulled from preaching in August 2008 due to an inappropriate relationship (how utterly shocking, right?). He then separated from his wife and remarried a few months later.

This is what World found out about some of his so-called “healings”:

At the height of what many called a revival, WORLD asked Bentley to talk about the healings, like Fogle’s, and asked for a list of people who had been healed at the services. His associates told me Bentley was out of the country and a list could not be produced. But six weeks and more than a dozen requests later, the ministry eventually sent a list of 13 names. Fogle was No. 12 on the list, along with this note: “Healed through the Outpouring and is back to fishing.”

That was on Aug. 8, 2008. There was just one problem. Two weeks earlier, on July 22, Christopher A. Fogle—according to his obituary in the Keokuk (Iowa) Daily Gate City, “left this life . . . after a courageous battle with cancer.”

A review of the list nearly one year later reveals that Fogle is not the only person “healed” who is now dead. When I called Phyllis Mills, of Trinity, N.C., on April 22, to hear the testimony of her healing, a polite family member said, “Phyllis passed away a few days ago. In fact, we’re on our way to her funeral now.”

Mills, 66 at the time of her death, had lung cancer and was undergoing aggressive treatments when she was, according to the list, “healed at the revival.” Mills “was taking radiation, but was sent home according to notes on Bentley’s list, with “no trace of cancer in her body.”

I feel like Todd could be held responsible for some of these deaths. Through fraud, he convinced people they were healed and then asked them for money. Blinded by hope and faith, they believed him and generously gave.

If they were healed, why should they continue treatment? Why should they continue taking medications?

So they stopped.

And they died.

And Todd Bentley made a hell of a lot of money, committed adultery, then found a new wife — laughing all the way.

(via; see also The Rise and Fall of Todd Bentley)

  • Baconsbud

    Think about how many he and others like him claimed to have healed and when they were sick again, they blamed themselves for it. If christians truly believe in justice they would keep track of all these so called healed people and any that the healer didn’t heal should be able to sue. I wonder if someone got a class action suit against healers, how many claiming they weren’t healed would come forward?

    • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

      If christians truly believe in justice they would keep track of all these so called healed people and any that the healer didn’t heal should be able to sue.

      On what grounds? Healing isn’t (usually) guaranteed….

      • TheWrathOfOliverKhan

        Fraud, perhaps, since he has no healing powers to offer?

      • http://metroblog.blogspot.com Metro

        So the list of “cured” people means nothing?

        If these fakes are soliciting money based on their ability to “heal”–and they clearly are–They must be held to the same standard as any other merchant. And unlike doctors, they often DO claim their healing is guaranteed.

        They should either be held to the same minimum moral and ethical standards as other health practitioners (even homeopathists apparently have some), or prosecuted like any other commercial fraud.

        • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

          Where’s the evidence that they guaranteed healing?

          • http://www.BlueNine.info Blue Nine

            Where is the evidence your religion is true?

          • Japanther

            Who cares if they ‘guaranteed’ healing? They said or implied it was ‘possible’, at least right? Where is the evidence that it is possible to yell at someone and say “Jesus” at the end of a sentence, and arms grow back, or stage 4 colon cancer goes away (or any other healing)?

            Seriously, ask yourself “Why won’t God heal amputees?” Because God doesn’t heal anything. Science does. Medicine does. The human body does (naturally).

            • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

              It matters when it comes to a lawsuit for fraud.

              Look, I’m not defending the guy. I don’t support what he’s doing.

              But that doesn’t mean there’s a legitimate legal action to be had.

            • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

              Really whether “there’s a legitimate leagl action” depends on the facts of any given case. It’s not hard to come up with a very plausible fact pattern where someone gets sicker or dies because of guys like this. That could be the foundation for a fraud, negligence or other tort claim.

              It’s tough to tell from this article article if the facts exist in any listed case, but the argument the argument for legal action is not a bad one.

              As I mentioned elsewhere, some of the infirmed would have a tough time proving damages though

            • rodneyAnonymous

              If a medical doctor in a hospital told a dozen people they were cured and could go home, and it turned out they weren’t cured at all and some of them died, the doctor would be in trouble.

            • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

              “If a medical doctor in a hospital told a dozen people they were cured and could go home, and it turned out they weren’t cured at all and some of them died, the doctor would be in trouble.”

              Yes, but if the doctor told them something like “I can’t guarantee you are cured, this is more of an art than a science so you may want to see another doctor…”

              OR

              The patients didn’t believe the doctor, went out and got more treatment from another doctor but died anyway…

              The lawsuits look a lot weaker. Each of those scenarios is equally plausible with the faith healer. I’m not saying viable suits couldn’t exist against these liars, I’m just saying that the facts have to be right.

          • Sanna

            If there is no guarantee of healing, and god still already decided who will live and die, then what is the point of “healing”, if god’s plan for you is already made up, then what reason do you have to pray?

      • DarkMatter

        Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

        This is the evidence from the bible. Christians never realise they are the evidence that their faith is fake.

        • John

          If you read that passage in it’s entirety that is Christ talking to the twelve disciples. I think the way you have stated this passage is taking the passage out of context. This was a specific command to the twelve disciples of Christ for them to go preach unto the world. If you want to then try to apply that to the Christian’s of today, I would say this man here is in the wrong if he truly can heal people because Christ commands the disciples in the very next verse, Matthew 10:9, “Do not acquire gold, silver, or copper for your money belts,” and it goes on. Christ here taught that the twelve disciples were to go out and heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, and raise the dead, but He also said to not do it for money. Christ was all about grace, “freely you have received, freely given” implies that they did nothing to receive what they had acquired; therefore, they should give it for free as well.

          I think it’s important to read the passage in it’s entirety it really does express the true meaning of the passage. Therefore, I encourage you to read the passages from the Bible in it’s entirety. It wouldn’t do you much good to sit down and read just one line of a book and then fashion an opinion off of that one line.

          • DarkMatter

            “If you want to then try to apply that to the Christian’s of today, I would say this man here is in the wrong if he truly can heal people because Christ commands the disciples in the very next verse, Matthew 10:9, “Do not acquire gold, silver, or copper for your money belts,” and it goes on.”

            Thank you for proving me right.

            • John

              I do not see how that is proof of my faith being fake though. If you’re trying to use that scripture to prove that Christian’s should be able to heal the sick, lepers, and raise the dead than you are misquoting scripture. You are then wrong for misquoting that passage. That passage I believe is directly applicable to the twelve disciples. I do not think that the passage you state there implies that Christian’s of today are capable of healing the lame, sick, and blind and raising the dead.

            • DarkMatter

              “I do not think that the passage you state there implies that Christian’s of today are capable of healing the lame, sick, and blind and raising the dead.”

              Then which passage says modern christians are capable of doing that?

            • David

              But aren’t Christians supposed to be a “disciple of Christ”? Assuming so, then aren’t these instructions for all Christians, including healing the sick?

            • Kodie

              Does the relevant passage (or any other relevant passage) assume you don’t have to be trained medically to heal the sick? I mean – if someone told me I must heal the sick, and for whatever reason, I followed the order, I would go to medical school, nursing school, or at the very least, get my first aid cert.

              It just seems… non-specific. Does it say, you know, screw all that medicine, you should just be able to heal the sick by grabbing them and shouting at the ailment, or do people just infer it?

            • John

              I do not believe that today it is possible for true Christians to heal the sick. That was for the disciples and a few others that lived shortly after Christ and during Christ’s time. Their healing of the sick was for the glory of God. And I don’t believe Christians just forgo all medical knowledge. That passage doesn’t say, “Hey, just throw away all of your medical knowledge.” Actually one of the twelve disciples was thought to be a doctor, Luke. And no passages say, “Just forget all of your medical teachings and go heal people.” I do not believe that Christian’s today are capable of healing. I believe that the only healings that are possible are that from the Holy Spirit.

            • John

              @ David

              I do believe that the only healing that is possible now is that healing that comes from God (Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and God the Father, you know the whole Trinity). That is not to say that as Christian’s we aren’t supposed to pray for the sick and through our prayers He might answer them and heal the sick.

              However, maybe I’m wrong. If I am wrong I sure would love to be corrected as I am just a young guy who’s theology is definitely not 100% correct. I have been researching it and maybe it is possible for Christian’s today to heal the sick. If you truly are interested check this website out. http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/sermons/bydate/1990/712_Gifts_of_Healings_and_Workings_of_Miracles/
              If healing is capable today then these healings are to be done not out of exaltation of oneself, but out of love. Also, John Piper the pastor who wrote that sermon says, “That they won’t be able to heal at their will necessarily.” Paul, who played a huge role as an apostle, was not able to heal himself at will. However, he was capable of healing.
              Another important thing to keep in mind is that in the end times (we are there now) false prophets will arise to lead people astray and those false prophets will be able to heal and do signs and wonders. If you really want to know about it, go to that link and read the text from the link or download the sermon. It’s well worth the listen if you want to have an educated answer to the question.
              However, as it stands now, if Todd Bentley gets money and gifts for his so called healings than he is in the wrong.

            • David

              @ John: My belief is that God’s will is accomplished through the works of people. Therefore, in these days, you would put your faith in medical experts to heal your sickness and I wouldn’t say that God isn’t at work at all. Whether the medical experts are successful in extending the inevitable depends on God’s will.

              Anyone who claims to do God’s miraculous works and makes a big spectacle from it (or even gain from it monetarily) is really insulting God’s name.

              My interpretation of the passage in question is that the disciples are to give their services freely to people. Whether that would be to heal or not doesn’t matter; you can receive service from people in many ways.

            • David

              I don’t follow your logic at all. I’m not taking sides in beliefs but John seems to make the statement that it is Christians who are not following their faith that is the problem yet makes no inference to whether the belief is true or not. However, your argument is that since Christians can’t seem to follow their own beliefs, then that belief must be false. John did not prove you right at all — you both made different arguments.

            • DarkMatter

              He proves me right that modern christian can’t heal the sick, the lame, the blind and raise the dead.

            • John

              I am not a scholar or anything like that, just some sinner saved by God’s grace who reads the Bible in his spare time. I do not know if in today’s world Christian’s are capable of healing the sick. I do know that the disciples and a few others shortly after Christ’s time were capable of healing the sick and lepers. I am not so sure if that applies to today’s Christian’s being capable of healing. If you want to know, I am sure there are a few theologians out there who could provide some insight to it. Maybe try http://www.ccel.org and search it out there, or go to http://www.desiringgod.org or http://www.gty.org. Those are some good websites to start out. I think what’s more important than the healing of people’s physical needs is the healing of their spiritual needs (don’t get me wrong, the physical needs are important, but the physical needs are only temporal, the spiritual needs are eternal). Let me explain that, I recently had a friend who passed away due to brain cancer. He had a tumor, when we found out about it we were crushed, but nonetheless we knew the situation was in God’s hands and under His control. My friend went through a few surgeries to have it removed and then radiation treatment. A few months after the surgery it seemed to be looking good. Then over the next week he deteriorated extremely fast. The cancer spread to his spinal fluids and just throughout his body at an alarming rate. Thank God this young man had embraced Christ’s effectual saving call and lived his life in a way that would be pleasing to Christ. Even on his death bed he was completely willing to do God’s work NO matter what it called him to do. He ended up passing away a few months ago and while doing the Lord’s work. Christian’s are supposed to do what the Lord has called them to do. I somehow catch a funny smell from Mr. Bentley and get the impression he is part of the health, wealth and prosperity gospel (here’s a video in regards to the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s ), a part of this American culture which I am ashamed claims the title of Christians. They lose sight of the true meaning of the Gospel way too often, and I believe when they say they love God they mean “I like the way you make me feel,” or “I love you only when things are going well for me.” It’s extremely important that the sinner’s filthy soul be saved, however, a true Christian is going to be satisfied in God no matter how the Christian’s life plays out. I think a lot of these pastors who claim to be able to heal people and then get large sums of money for doing said actions are probably doing it for the wrong reasons. Also, the people who are going for healing are probably not completely satisfied with the true God. If some of the people who require healing are Christians, then they would be most satisfied with God no matter what the situation was. (Don’t get me wrong, I’m not demeaning the situations these people are in, I am sure if I was in a bad situation I would have a rough time dealing with it. But I pray that in the midst of one of those situations I would be able to find my hope and glory in the Lord.) Whether death, life, sickness, health, a Christian is to be completely satisfied with the Lord. The purpose for a Christian’s life is to glorify God, and I can do that as well as the rest of my fellow Christians can do that, by being completely and only satisfied in Him no matter what situation or circumstance I am presented with. I once heard the story by a pastor dealing with a “tragedy.” He told the story of a couple who retires to Florida where they spend the rest of their days collecting sea shells and playing bingo on Wednesday’s. Then he followed it with the story of two 60 year old ladies who died after their bus lost its brakes and drove off the edge of a cliff while they were serving the Lord on a foreign mission field. The pastor then asked what the real tragedy was. Well most might think the people who died in the crash. However, the real tragedy is the people who are living a spiritually dead life in Florida collecting sea shells. That does nothing for Christ’s glory and that is a tragedy. The real tragedy there is the old couple who are spiritually dead. Those older ladies were doing the Lord’s work and were not spiritually dead. However, the spiritually dead are simply wasting their life, that is a tragedy.

            • John

              Whoops, forgot to separate it into paragraphs instead of one large block of text. Sorry. :(

            • David

              Either your original comment was extremely vague or you just threw in your statement just now.

            • David

              The above comment was directed to DarkMatter.

              @ John: I agree with you and would go as far as say that Bentley is one with evil intent.

      • Justin

        Your fallacy is in assuming that divine healing works the same way scientific healing does. I’ve never heard of a faith healer who made any mention of risks, remission et al.

    • cypressgreen

      “”If christians truly believe in justice they would keep track of all these so called healed people and any that the healer didn’t heal should be able to sue.”"

      I don’t believe in the suing part, but I do think some christian watchdog group should monitor outcomes. Usually I hear they fear false prophets, so they could label the ones they see as fake as such are take the guilt off the ‘unhealed.’ Maybe there is such a group right now, but they could be more visible.
      I’m glad World Magazine printed this.

    • MahouSniper

      I certainly think they should be sued. These people rob millions from the sick and dying and often probably contribute to their death when proper treatment could have saved them. I think at the very least they shouldn’t keep that money. The family members should sue and get back what’s rightfully theirs.

  • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

    Preface: The fraud bothers me as much as anyone else here. In fact, maybe more so…

    However,

    If they were healed, why should they continue treatment? Why should they continue taking medications?

    So they stopped.

    And they died.

    Based on your short article, we don’t have enough information to make those judgments.

    First, we don’t know if they were explicitly encouraged to stop taking medications. A lot of ‘faith healers’ encourage people to continue taking medications if/until the Dr. tells them to — if for no other reason than to avoid the accusations you just made.

    Second, we don’t know whether or not the people stopped taking meds.

    Third, we don’t know if the people who were ‘healed’ were terminal before they were ‘healed.’ If they were terminal, and if they stopped taking their meds, this guy can’t be on the hook for their deaths.

    That said, I don’t have time to read the article by World today. If your link answers my questions, and if someone else reads it, I’m happy to be corrected.

    • http://metroblog.blogspot.com Metro

      That’s interesting. Complain that a summation gives you insufficient information, make disparaging remarks about its accuracy, and THEN remark that you don’t have time to check the source?

      Perilously close to concern trolling, old boy.

      Mind you, I agree. The article, which I read (it’s really quite short, in length and on gory detail), doesn’t specifically mention anyone going off their meds through this fraud’s interference.

      Although one might think at least one of the victims had, from her comment about scans indicating that her cancer is spreading: “That’s a fact, but it’s not the truth. The truth is that I’ve been healed.”

    • http://www.BlueNine.info Blue Nine

      So you question the premise of the post, but then say you have not read the linked article. And you “don’t have time to read” it. How convenient.

      I am guessing that you are a Christian. How’s the bubble?

      • Roger

        I’m guessing that the bubble is very Jesusy.

        • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

          Yes, you’re both guessing. Condescendingly and arrogantly, and actually with some accuracy.

          • L

            “SOME” accuracy?

            Please read brgulker’s blog, “hoping for redemption,” where he goes batshit crazy for Jeeeesus.

            http://brgulker.wordpress.com/

            It’s not ‘guessing’ when you’re practically bleeding Jesus out of every orifice in your body.

    • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

      I really don’t have time today. I’m reviewing grants and in and out of meetings until 5. Then I have an appointment at a university.

      But I did qualify my comments in the preface:

      “Based on this article… we don’t have enough info…”

      It’s not trolling. It’s being skeptical.

      Just because Daniel sums an article doesn’t mean I have to believe it’s an accurate summary. He’s capable of being wrong, right?

      I am guessing that you are a Christian. How’s the bubble?

      Did you take time to read the article to verify Daniel’s claims?

      • Siveambrai

        He’s capable of being wrong, right?

        Well if you take his most recent email into account he may just be infallible. :)

      • Daniel Florien

        I’m not saying this happened for everyone. My point is if people were healed, why would they continue to take their medicine or treatments? They would stop if they thought they were healed, right?

        I didn’t say the article specifically said that those people stopped taking their meds, that would be a hard thing for someone to find out!

        • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

          If they were healed, why should they continue treatment? Why should they continue taking medications?

          So they stopped.

          And they died.

          My point is if people were healed, why would they continue to take their medicine or treatments? They would stop if they thought they were healed, right?

          Respectably, Daniel, I certainly don’t understand your first comment to mean what you said it does in the latter.

          “So they stopped. And they died.” In the first place, you’re clearly asserting that they stopped taking their meds, a claim you backtrack on in your comment to me. Second, I’m reading this to mean that you are implicitly placing at least some of the blame of the faith healer who offered people a fraudulent hope. And I don’t think I’m alone in reading you that way, as is evidenced by the comments about lawsuits over fraud
          In my view, you’re talking out of both sides of your mouth.

          On the one hand, you claim that they stopped taking their meds, and as a direct result, they died.

          But on the other hand, you claim that “it would be hard to find out” if they had actually stopped taking their meds.

          I simply challenged your claim that they stopped taking their meds, a claim that is justified by the article, I think. If anything, the article suggests that they kept taking their meds…

          If they were healed, why should they continue treatment? Why should they continue taking medications?

          That part makes perfect sense, and obviously in spite of what they said, they kept taking their meds, which means they didn’t think they were healed.

          • Daniel Florien

            I must have missed if it said they kept taking their meds. If so, I guess they didn’t think they were really healed. Someone who thought they were healed would stop taking their medication.

            About the treatment, I was referring to:

            Mills “was taking radiation, but was sent home according to notes on Bentley’s list, with “no trace of cancer in her body.”

            So it seems she stopped treatment, and then died, based on Bentley’s fraudulent claims.

            • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

              Another problem with Bentley’s list is that some of the healings, even if legitimate, didn’t happen at Bentley’s services. Gaila Smith, 53, of Yerington, Nev., was diagnosed with breast cancer 10 years ago, at age 43, and had what she called a “total mastectomy” at that time. But the cancer had spread to her liver. Over the next decade she endured more rounds of chemotherapy, the latest one ending in December. She eventually attended a women’s conference, where “God touched me,” she said. She says she was healed at the women’s conference, but when she attended Bentley’s meetings in Lakeland, they asked, “If you had experienced a miraculous healing, come forward.”

              Smith went forward and told her story, and she ended up on Bentley’s list, with this note: “Healed of breast cancer that had spread to liver. Totally healed in Florida, all scans are now clear.”

              Not only did any healing take place elsewhere, Smith now admits that the scans are not now clear. “The doctors tell me that my numbers are going up,” said Smith, who told me that she, too, had a healing ministry. “But we don’t buy into that. That’s a fact, but it’s not the truth. The truth is that I’ve been healed.”

              She was ‘healed’ once. Yet, she continued her treatment. She was ‘healed’ again (by the guy in the article), yet she is still seeing a Dr.

            • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

              Bah, hit reply by mistake.

              The article doesn’t say that she’s still taking meds, but it certainly does not say that she has stopped taking her meds. It does tell us that she is still seeing a Dr., so I don’t think it’s much of a stress to think that she’s still being treated by the Dr. she’s seeing.

          • Japanther

            Daniel was clearly just stating one logical implication of victims of faith healers, that if they honestly had faith that they were healed, many would stop their treatments. It would be difficult to find an exact percentage, yes. But exact examples are very easy to find, and I believe Daniel’s above reply includes just such one. Clearly, if enough people go to a faith healer, at least one (probably many) will stop taking medications. And die.

            Agree?

            • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

              Yes, the logical conclusion is sound. If someone believes they are healed, taking meds is illogical.

              But, I do not agree that the point of this post was to demonstrate the logical inconsistency of the people who were ‘healed.’

              The point can be found here,

              And Todd Bentley made a hell of a lot of money, committed adultery, then found a new wife — laughing all the way.

              Clearly, the point is to discredit Todd, a point that seems to be worth making.

              However, my objections have to do with Todd’s complicity in the death of a person/people that he ‘healed.’ Based on the information in the article, I’m not convinced.

            • Japanther

              agreed… but it seems kind of a trivial thing to argue about. I’m nearly certain that out of the tens of thousands of people that attend his stadium tours etc, at least one has died directly because of him.

              You are basing it on one article. I understand that Daniel’s original post was about this one article, so I totally get your objections. However, I think he wanted or intended us to read between the lines. Meaning, there are probably hundreds of articles, thousands of victims, and we can safely assume that it is very likely that someone (probably many) have died.

              Though, once again, I can’t speak for Daniel. That’s just how I took his post.

      • http://www.BlueNine.info Blue Nine

        Yes I did read the article. It’s just amazing to me that Christians are very skeptical of anything that challenges Christianity, yet rarely apply that skepticism to their own religion. When does a Christian say we don’t have enough information to make those judgments? Not when the finger is pointed at them.

        • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

          I’m not skeptical of the fact that this guy’s a fraud. And I’m not skeptical of the article. There’s no reason to doubt the article; it seems to be based soundly in fact.

          I’m skeptical of a couple of Daniels original claims, which are clearly outlined above.

          And based on what we have from the article, the claims stand. But as I’ve said, if I’m reading the article incorrectly, I’m happy to be corrected.

          When does a Christian say we don’t have enough information to make those judgments? Not when the finger is pointed at them.

          I understand that your experiences with other Christians would cause you to ask that about me. But, I’ve been completely honest about my belief an the epistemological limits of belief in other posts. That to say, I don’t like being pigeon-holed anymore than the next person.

    • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

      Just read the article, from start to finish. I will reiterate my objections to Daniel’s original post:

      First, we don’t know if they were explicitly encouraged to stop taking medications. A lot of ‘faith healers’ encourage people to continue taking medications if/until the Dr. tells them to — if for no other reason than to avoid the accusations you just made.

      There is nothing in the article to indicate that these people were ever instructed to stop taking their meds. In fact, in the example of the woman with liver cancer, she’s still undergoing treatment.

      Second, we don’t know whether or not the people stopped taking meds.

      See above. In the examples given, the people continued taking their meds even after the ‘healing.’

      Third, we don’t know if the people who were ‘healed’ were terminal before they were ‘healed.’ If they were terminal, and if they stopped taking their meds, this guy can’t be on the hook for their deaths.

      As best as I can tell, the people in the article weren’t terminal… but the article doesn’t specify either way.

      So, I’ve reviewed the article, and my objections stand. Myy original objections that I posed to Daniel’s summation exclusively actually stand with respect to both articles, and that’s backed by the original story itself.

      If any of you want to read the article and prove me wrong, I will reiterate again, I’m happy to stand corrected.

  • Jer

    Grod, I hate these people who peddle false hope. These people make me wish I actually still believed in some kind of afterlife, so that I could at least believe that someday they might be held accountable for their evil.

  • Roger

    If stupid people believe stupid promises, and then die, then there is one less stupid person in the world. Win win.

    • billybee

      Ditto

    • Daniel Florien

      These people aren’t necessarily stupid, they’re desperate and will try anything.

      • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

        Herein lies the rub. my guess is that many of these people have reached a final straw and are trying anything to get well. They may have died anyway even on medication. Would make proving any damages in court difficult.

        Now if soembody with something treatable relied on the healers representations, gave up medical treatement, and then died, the wrongful death suit looks a lot better.

        Not sure the article gives enough facts either way. It does seem to indicate thyat at least one of the deceased was still undergoing aggressive treatment at the time of her death though.

    • cypressgreen

      Yeah, my sister has recurrent kidney cancer (@ 45 w/2 small kids) and even she went to a healing service. Not one of those big juiced up ones, though. And she does cancer treatment when necessary.
      She’s Catholic and super sharp but she figured, what the heck. She said people were falling over but she didn’t feel anything. She went more to check it out and see if it would lift her spirits.

      I’ve worked 13 yrs in a major hospital in the radiation cancer treatment area and I meet all kinds of souped up religious folk who are desperate. And they try alternative treatments, especially when our doctors can do no more.

    • http://pathtofaith.com/index.php cypressgreen

      I just called my sis, the guy is catholic and you have to pay to get in. His name is Dr. Iffam Nemeh and his site is listed if anyone is interested.
      And yes, her cancer recurred a second time after the healing service. Requiring major surgery.

      • Japanther

        Did she get a refund?

        I’m sorry about your sister. Please don’t take this personally, as I’m not going for rude.

        • http://pathtofaith.com/index.php cypressgreen

          Bwah ha ha ha ha!!!! No she didn’t, and no, I didn’t take it the wrong way. I mean, Liz and I go around saying things like, “It’s not a too-mah.” (ala Arnold)

          • Japanther

            :) That’s great.

            • cypressgreen

              Yeah, in my work I’ve spent time daily with a lot of dying people. It’s radiation treatment and most of our patients come daily for 6 weeks. I ran the front desk for several years, loved the patients and was very popular with them, but eventually I had to get another job in the department. Because it became too much emotionally. Nothing like watching people get sicker every day and having people dying all the time.
              We even treated my father; seven courses of treatments. I got a lot of religious gifts which I passed on (other gifts, too). So ya’ gotta be able to joke about the stuff or it’ll drive you crazy.

              My sis works for the hospital too, but in HR. In my new position, I still have patient contact but more limited in intensity. Bummer for her that she heard about all the sad cases from me, and then SHE got cancer.

              Patients got a great sense of humor often. Brain cancer pts will tell you they use it as the perfect excuse, “Oh, we were supposed to see your mom today? I forgot. Sorry, it’s the brain cancer.” The t-shirts can be really funny. My fav was a guy whose shirt said “I love the smell of chemo in the morning.”
              Funny thing is, his girlfriend bought it for him and neither one had seen Apocalypse Now nor got the joke!
              So it’s hard to find fault in the desperate ones.

            • Japanther

              That was very touching. Thank you for sharing. I’m glad to hear that so many people deal with despair with a decent sense of humor. I laughed quite a few times during that post. Excellent.

    • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

      Roger, that’s a really horrible thing to say. I agree with Daniel. These people are desperate.

      I hope you never have to face that kind of desperation. It’s an awful feeling that I’ve had to experience. Your lack of sensitivity to it is staggering.

    • Siveambrai

      Quite honestly, people at the end do seek comfort where they can find it. I lost my grandmother to stage 4 cancer almost 10 years ago and she luckily decided to seek comfort about her death by being with her family. Those moments are some of the last and best of her that I can keep with me forever.

      However, there are many people that take comfort in their faith. Going to a faith healer for them could be just as much about comfort as it is about curing. And for those who have doubts, their desperation may lead them astray. Having watched my partner’s deeply religious family grieve recently I can agree that they uniformly turned to the local preacher as a source of comfort and reassurance that their deceased loved ones were healed and healthy in heaven. To each their own.

  • BoringPostcards

    The guy comes across as a lunatic, and a violent one at that. Check out his “healing” of a man with colon cancer. OUCH.

    (This video was pointed out to me by a friend on another blog.)

    • Roger

      Holy–! What the hell’s wrong with this dude? Oh, wait. He’s a fraud, a charlatan and doesn’t give a crap. A lunatic, indeed!

    • Japanther

      That video messed me up. LOL.

      • Roger

        Probably not as much as the poor sap who got kicked in the cancer.

        • Japanther

          yeah. Also not as funny after I read Darkmatter’s post/link (below).

  • http://thebeattitude.com theBEattitude

    I personally know a girl that went to one of Todd Bentley’s “healing” services. I met her through a Christian friend of mine.

    She is fourteen years old. She suffers from an extremely rare auto immune disorder. Her family is EXTREMELY religious as her parents are both Christian missionaries. She claimed to be miraculously healed by Bentley and I recieved countless emails praising the miracle that had happened.

    One month later she was hospitalized in more severe agony than she had ever experienced. Today she is heavily medicated and has been in and out of the hospital many times.

    God is good.

  • Darwin

    Darwin ftw?

  • http://leavingreligion.wordpress.com leavingreligion

    This type of fraud is perhaps the lowest of the low. I also think there is more that can be considered fraud, that isn’t because it isn’t coming from ‘holy rollers’.

    I mean, what about those in the church who are gay who end up committing suicide because they are told how evil and sinful they are and that they will go to hell and that gay people are barely even people? What about the girl who gets pregnant out of wedlock at a young age who is so ashamed and guilt ridden that she hides the pregnancy and throws her baby in a dumpster? I consider this just as bad as the ‘holy roller’ who is telling people they are healed, when they aren’t.

  • http://www.thesixtyone.com/paintingtasters Painting Tasters

    Wouldn’t a healer with true, magical healing powers, like JESUS, offer his/her services for free? With a proven track record (the healed don’t die a few days/weeks/months after treatment), everyone would know and recognize that the healer could perform miracles and offer (modest) financial support without the healer having to ask for it.

    Who wants to play Jesus?

  • DarkMatter

    LAKELAND, Fla. — Todd Bentley has a long night ahead of him, resurrecting the dead, healing the blind, and exploding cancerous tumors. Since April 3, the 32-year-old, heavily tattooed, body-pierced, shaved-head Canadian preacher has been leading a continuous “supernatural healing revival” in central Florida. To contain the 10,000-plus crowds flocking from around the globe, Bentley has rented baseball stadiums, arenas and airport hangars at a cost of up to $15,000 a day. Many in attendance are church pastors themselves who believe Bentley to be a prophet and don’t bat an eye when he tells them he’s seen King David and spoken with the Apostle Paul in heaven. “He was looking very Jewish,” Bentley notes.

    Tattooed across his sternum are military dog tags that read “Joel’s Army.” They’re evidence of Bentley’s generalship in a rapidly growing apocalyptic movement that’s gone largely unnoticed by watchdogs of the theocratic right. According to Bentley and a handful of other “hyper-charismatic” preachers advancing the same agenda, Joel’s Army is prophesied to become an Armageddon-ready military force of young people with a divine mandate to physically impose Christian “dominion” on non-believers.

    “An end-time army has one common purpose — to aggressively take ground for the kingdom of God under the authority of Jesus Christ, the Dread Champion,” Bentley declares on the website for his ministry school in British Columbia, Canada. “The trumpet is sounding, calling on-fire, revolutionary believers to enlist in Joel’s Army. … Many are now ready to be mobilized to establish and advance God’s kingdom on earth.”

    More: http://www.alternet.org/story/96945/theocratic_sect_prays_for_real_armageddon/

    • Siveambrai

      Ok.. now THAT is scary.

    • Japanther

      WTF I just read that whole article (4 LONG pages.) This man is very dangerous. This movement is very scary. This might get… violent.

      Keep your eyes peeled for this sub-cult, ‘Joel’s Army’ I have a feeling we haven’t heard the last of them.

      • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

        It won’t get violent. As disturbing as the rhetoric sounds, it’s symbolic, not literal. Aggressive doesn’t mean physically aggressive; it means spiritually aggressive.

        • DarkMatter

          How do you know? History has many examples.

          • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

            I don’t know beyond any shadow of a doubt, I suppose.

            But, I grew up with this rhetoric. I know what he means because I’ve experienced it myself. It won’t get violent, at least not with his blessing.

            • DarkMatter

              He is not the only one, I know you know.

            • Siberia

              I honestly hope you’re right, but considering the precedents of history and the fact the guy sounds quite unstable, I wouldn’t be so positive.

        • rodneyAnonymous

          Joel’s Army is prophesied to become an Armageddon-ready military force of young people with a divine mandate to physically impose Christian “dominion” on non-believers

          Yes that seems quite metaphorical.

          • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

            I stand corrected.

            • Japanther

              yeah. But you are willing to admit it. And that’s great. I like your comments. Always respectful, and able to accept being wrong. (:

            • rodneyAnonymous

              In my experience: only when it’s obvious. Usually, I just misunderstood his point. :)

            • Japanther

              :) I still like him though.

            • rodneyAnonymous

              (But you are generally thoughtful and honest, my previous comment was imprudent, sorry.)

            • http://brgulker.wordpress.com brgulker

              In my experience: only when it’s obvious. Usually, I just misunderstood his point. :)

              Good one :)

            • Frank

              I like him too.

              You’re OK Gulker, we’ll keep you!

            • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

              Virtual Group Hug?

            • Japanther

              (: *HUG*

      • Roger

        I also doubt we’ve heard the last of this crazy cult–is it me, or do they sound just like the Taliban?

        • rodneyAnonymous

          That occurred to me. The mission seems very similar to Islam’s: world domination, convert or perish.

          • LRA

            Wait.. that’s the Necromonger Way. Do you want to see the Underverse?

        • DarkMatter
          • Japanther

            These are clearly legit, and scary. The only thing that could get them off the hook would be if this was a sampling of ‘Chaplain’s Slides’ in the briefing.

            I’m U.S. Army, and I have to sit through similar briefs daily. Most of it is boring information (wont go into it here, for obvious reasons), but near the end of many of these briefs, the chaplain presents his slide (usually powerpoint, and multisite). Everyone has to listen to him say some dumb stuff about baseball games and he makes some weird references to world war 2. Then he invariable closes with ‘Not a sermon, just a thought.’ It rarely makes any sense, and I swear it’s downright embarrassing.

            But I’m not listening to a chaplain THAT high up. I’m listening to a pretty high up there chaplain, but each one is different.

            On the other hand, I am almost certain that Rumsfeld himself had this prepared just like this to manipulate Bush. I thought I could share my experience of Chaplains at the same time though. (no offense, brgulker)

  • John

    I wouldn’t want to be within 10 feet of a redneck with that much ink, let alone have him touch me.

  • http://pathtofaith.com/index.php cypressgreen

    I wonder if it’s a coincidence that his name is “Bentley.” I bet he’s made enough dough fleecing people to buy a bunch. LOL

  • Pingback: Todd Bentley, Yet Another Faith Fraud « Netcrema - creme de la social news

  • http://doubtingeventhomas.blogspot.com/ Doubting Foo

    Why didn’t his followers get biblical on his ass and stone him?

  • Joshua Barnes

    Now this is where you’re doing good work Daniel…good job.

  • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

    If I posted a story about a healing that I witnessed in person, would anyone believe me?

    (Not trolling, just asking)

    • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

      Unlikely. I would ask about the circumstances and be very skeptical.

      I would be interested though. If that helps at all.

    • rodneyAnonymous

      No. I might believe you saw what you saw (who am I to say what your perception is?), but not that what you saw was real. Unless you give me some evidence that outweighs all the evidence I have that says amputees can’t regrow limbs. If I posted a story about having seen someone vanish right in front of me, I doubt you would believe me.

      • Joe B

        I might believe you saw what you saw (who am I to say what your perception is?), but not that what you saw was real.

        Like the lampshade ghost in the openmindedness video

        (0:55-3:05)
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

    • Roger

      I probably wouldn’t believe you unless there was some corroborating evidence (other independent eyewitness accounts, doctor’s reports, etc). I would think that you believe what you believe, but that your belief may be mistaken.

    • Japanther

      I’m afraid I must agree with the others here, my friend. The only things that seem to be able to heal on camera, and not just in a story, always turn out to be… not magic.

      OK, I’m going to steal one more Tim Minchin line: “You know what they call alternative medicine that works?…Medicine.”

      The body heals itself naturally, but only with certain afflictions, and not with 100% efficacy. That’s why we demand video of an amputee’s arm growing back. Why wouldn’t you pray for that? Because you know it wont happen. Why not? Because nature doesn’t work that way. But sometimes a body can rid itself of cancer (science helps this, btw). Which is why we don’t accept ‘Its a miracle!’ if the healing succeeds. Conversely, this is also why we don’t accept ‘God works in mysterious ways’ if the healing fails.

    • Siberia

      Probably not. I didn’t believe my own mother’s alleged healing, after all – placebo effect being what it is.

      • rodneyAnonymous

        Yes, the placebo effect is very powerful, and many ailments can be improved or completely healed by other things that may not be immediately obvious. (Such as medical treatment, people frequently get treatment and also see a faith healer, and if they’re healed attribute it to the latter. “Healing amputees” is a handy example because there is no current treatment to regrow limbs, though regenerative medicine is very promising, especially without political barriers to stem-cell research.)

    • http://brgulker.wordpress.com brgulker

      If I have time tonight, I’ll post what I saw. No promises.

      Plus, my internet has been hit and miss at home this week.

      • Japanther

        looking forward to it.

    • Question-I-thority

      Personal antidote would be a good starting point but not sufficient for acceptance. This is obvious, no?

      • Japanther

        antidote = anecdote?

        • Question-I-thority

          thanks! :)

  • Yvonne Coonrod

    It makes me so angry that someone like Todd Bentley would call himself a ‘Christian’ and then performs like some circus freak, hurting people, bringing false hope, drawing attention to his demonic ways and doing everything that is in exact opposition to what God commands us in His Word. God is a God of order and there is NO order ….just chaos….at Bentley’s meetings. How can people continue to believe this is being done in the name of Jesus. They are so deceived and such is the manner of deception ….you don’t know you are deceived.
    I am so relieved and happy to be out of the whole pentecostal and charismatic chaos! Do I still believe God heals….yes! But not because some lunatic commands Him to do it. He is a sovereign, holy God and He is more than able to heal us if He choses. However the most important issue is our souls and eternity. Jesus healed and delivered during His time on earth purely as a sign to the Jews that He was the promised Messiah….the Son of God. If people would be like the Bereans and study the Word we wouldn’t be in the mess we are today, me included….I had 38 years of believing in experiences instead of studying the Word and checking things out. If you know the true…you will very quickly discern the counterfeit.

    • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

      “It makes me so angry that someone like Todd Bentley would call himself a ‘Christian’ and then performs like some circus freak..”

      OK – so he’s not a true christian – please tell us how we can discern true christians from false ones?

      • Yvonne

        I didn’t say he wasn’t a ‘true christian’. What I said was ..’He calls himself a Christian’.
        Big difference!

        • rodneyAnonymous

          So either you meant “he calls himself a Christian and he is a Christian”, which doesn’t make sense, or “he calls himself a Christian but he isn’t”, which is what Bill was responding to… how should non-Christians tell “real Christians” apart when they both claim to be Christian?

          • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

            yup

          • Japanther

            exactly

        • Yvonne

          C’mon you guys, you are adding to my words…..Bentley CAN call himself a Christian and not be one ….that does make sense and it’s not my place to judge another mans heart as far as his salvation is concerned, thats up to God, but I am allowed to be a ‘fruit inspector’, because Jesus said ….Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheeps clothing but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will KNOW them by their fruits. Matthew 7 :15-16 (But I would recommend whoever to read the whole chapter) The purpose for my comment was NOT to get into a discussion about what a Christian is or isn’t …… because there are some strange things going on in the name of Christianity right now….Bentleys actions included…but equally I don’t think unbelievers have the ability to discern spiritual things (that will throw the cat among the pidgeons!)because when one is a Christian then the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them and He leads a committed Christian into all Truth…the Bible says spiritual truth is foolishness to the natural man because he does not understand. 1 Corinth:2 :14 I think Bentley is deluded and there comes a point where people open themselves up to the demonic spiritual realm and think it is God doing all these crazy supernatural things through them. God DOES not produce the kind of fruit which Bentley is displaying and God doesn’t need me to defend Him but there is still a thing called righteous anger.

          • rodneyAnonymous

            So you didn’t mean “he calls himself a Christian, but he isn’t”, you meant “he calls himself a Christian, what a world”? Ooookay…

            • Joe B

              that actually is how I read it.

            • Kodie

              I think Yvonne could be saying Bentley might say he’s a Christian like I might say I’m a Christian, to get Christians to buy stuff. Or that’s what she ought to mean. Bentley might instead believe he is the sincere Christian and think Yvonne is the fake Christian because he would know her by her fruit. Actually, that’s how I would interpret what she wrote.

            • Yvonne

              What weird ‘conversations’! How did I ever get involved in this lot …..well I’m out of here before I start going ga ga like Bentley and others.

          • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

            Actually, Yvone is making a couple good points. I’ll take a stab at clarifying.

            First, she is saying that salvation is God’s decisions, not ours. Because it’s God’s decision, not hers, she’s unable to make a definitive claim as to whether or not this guy, or anyone, is outside salvation.

            Second, although we Christians cannot answer the “who’s in, who’s out” question, Jesus does tell us that we will know who his disciples are “by their fruit.” In other words, if someone is a follower of Jesus, they will act like it (or at least make authentic attempts; we are capable of completely blowing it). Jesus himself sums up the entire law by saying that we are to love God with our entire being and to love our neighbor as we love our self. So, anyone should be able to point to a Christ-follower and easily observe the “fruits” of following Christ; it should be obvious.

            So, you all are giving Yvone a heck of a hard time when all she is really saying is this:

            Bently calls himself a Christian. I can’t know for sure whether he really is or not. However, there is some very serious, tangible evidence that suggests he is not.

            What more do you all want?

            • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

              “What more do you all want?”

              An explanation of the “tangible evidence” and the process by which she analyzed it and was able to discern that he may not be a real christian.

            • http://brgulker.wordpress.com/ brgulker

              I gave you all the tools you need to locate that tangible evidence, although I would still

              A person who follows Christ will (or at least attempt to) demonstrate that s/he loves God and loves his/her neighbors as he loves him/herself.

              Did you read the article? The evidence is clearly there. Him (or at least his ministry) repeatedly lied, over and over again, in their reporting and perhaps even to people who were ‘healed’ directly — although that’s a point I debated with Daniel and am not convinced either way on.

              Those actions, in my view, are not congruous with loving one’s neighbor as oneself.

              But, that statement is qualified by the Christian belief that salvation is God’s work and God’s decision.

              It’s pretty simple, really.

            • rodneyAnonymous

              Any criteria that don’t require expertise and careful evaluation?

              Anyone who claims to be Christian is Christian.

            • Kodie

              Y’all pick and choose how you interpret what Jesus told you to do, justify it, rationalize it. Every different denomination has altered the idea of what it means to be a Christian and by what measure to exclude anyone from that group by their fruits, i.e., behaving in a manner fitting their customary beliefs. They can tell you by your fruits too. I don’t think they would consider themselves atheists…. so if they do believe in heaven and hell and Jesus, then they must not be too afraid that their actions are in complete disregard for your interpretation.

              I mean, when you get people who think things happen for a reason, you’re going to find people who decide they’re chosen for this work and they’re excused, and they can probably find scripture that defends it as well to prove it. I think they still aren’t too scared of hell or they wouldn’t be doing it.

            • Yvonne

              You know Bill ….I could give you all the answers I could possibly think of but you still wouldn’t be satisfied.For me the Bible is the highest document of Authority (Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth) and unless you believe in the same thing our discussion is futile because there is no other way to discern. To put it bluntly I think Bentley loves the glory, loves being in the ‘limelight’ and brings absolute discredit to the name of Christ….and immature people encourage him because they want some form of entertainment at the expense of the desperate and sick.

            • Question-I-thority

              So you are claiming the Ananias and Sapphira were not Christians?

          • http://billpost.blogspot.com/ Bill

            “…..Bentley CAN call himself a Christian and not be one ….that does make sense and it’s not my place to judge another mans heart as far as his salvation is concerned, thats up to God, but I am allowed to be a ‘fruit inspector’,”

            If I”m reading anything in to your words it’s because you are using words that imply what I’m reading.

            The fact that you say you can be a “ftuit inspector’ implies that you can tell the good fruit from the bad fruit, i.e. the real christians from the false ones. What I want to know is how you do that.

            BTW…pretty convenient that only believers can inspect the fruit. Nonetheless, I’m interested in how a true believer like you can tell the good fruit from the bad.

            • Question-I-thority

              They can be fruit inspectors because they cherry pick. Duh!

      • John C

        The same way you will one day discern your true Self.

  • J.R.

    Christians are saying ” where’s this so called missing link?” Here it is.

    http://richarddawkins.net/article,3865,n,n

    • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

      J.R.,

      Let’s not overhype this fossil find and tag it with the “missing link” monitor. Let’s not blind everyone to the astoundingly large number of links — Tiktaalik, being another especially noteworthy one, too. There are finds like this all the time. In fact, scientists have used evolutionary theory to predict *where* the fossils would be found. Isn’t that amazing?

      Science — it works. :D

      • John C

        Psst…you are not now and never were a monkey, you were created in the image (glory)and likeness of the Father and He is not a monkey either.

        You have the capacity, the latent potential to “house” His very presence, His spirit, man (not monkey) being the very temple (dwelling place) of God.

        Trust me…I know Him and He always tells the truth….btw…He is Love.

        Oh the glory…great glory. Restoration, Mercy, Fellowship, Wholeness, Originality.

        • Korny

          Pssssst…

          You are not and never were a monkey because humans and monkeys diverged a VERY long time ago. You also didn’t evolve from a chimpanzee. Chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestor about 6 million years ago. THAT group of organisms shares a common ancestor with monkeys about 20 million years ago (off the top of my head. Maybe its 200 mil?).

          Evolutionary theory DOES not and NEVER HAS said you evolved from a monkey.

          • John C

            Were you there? Did you witness this for yourself? Do you know any eye witnesses? Great faith my dear, you have great faith indeed!

            • Korny

              Did I Witness it? No, actually I didn’t. I’m more than delighted to admit it. But I do not have FAITH. Faith is conviction in the absence of knowledge. I can show you the evidence, show you the disputes, show you the bits that makes everyone who studies the material go “eh, well thats just weird. How do we explain that?” By calling my understanding of this material “faith” you effectively say that my 5 and half years of tertiary education on the topic was for nothing AND I DO NOT LIKE THAT.
              Did you Witness the Creation in 6 days? Do you know anyone who did?

            • John C

              Yes, I have seen into the beginning of days, the genesis of all creation. The key is childlike wonder, humility and trust. Its a beautiful place, a beautiful Oneness in the spirit.

            • Roger

              Exactly how did you see into the genesis of all creation, John? Tell us, what physical/mechanical processes allowed you to travel millions of years back in time to witness the beginning of existence? Or are you merely speaking about your imagination, and not any real experience? ‘Cause if you’re able to time travel, you need to write a scientific paper–a Nobel Prize in physics awaits!

            • John C

              Once deep in the spirit, in a fast, in a sequestered monk-like state Father allowed me to see things from the beginning! How beautiful, how pristine. Didnt you know? He lives outside of the confines of time and space, the spirit has no age, is not limited as is the physical. One day I hope to see even more.

            • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

              You know John C, I’ve been asking you about your beliefs, and I could say exactly the same thing to you.

              “Were you there? Did you witness this for yourself? Do you know any eye witnesses? Great faith my dear, you have great faith indeed!”

              Were you there when Jesus was on the cross? No. Did you witness this for yourself? No. Do you know any eye witnesses? No. But you would tell me that this line of questioning is ignorant and disrespectful, because it clearly ignores what you believe to be compelling and clear historical evidence, right? Now, I disagree with you when it comes to your beliefs (and I also believe that the evidence is just not there to substantiate the claims made by Christianity), but I am willing to allow you to present your best case for your beliefs.

              You have demonstrated that you do not understand evolution. If I asked you these types of questions about religion, you would be offended. Now, do you have a right to ask me these questions? Do I have a right to ask you these questions? Yes, I believe that we both have this right. However, I want you to remember how you would feel if I applied this standard to you when you would not apply this standard to yourself.

              Most people generally believe that they should have evidence for their beliefs. It seems evident that most theists believe in critical thinking, too. People just tend to apply critical thinking selectively. John C, you ask questions about evolution that you would never ask about your faith. I believe that you should ask hard questions about both evolution and about your beliefs.

              The evidence exists for evolution, and it is overwhelming:
              http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

              Unfortunately, I am not knowledgable enough to give you all of the specifics, but I have directed you to a resource that should be quite helpful.

              I am encouraged that you are skeptical about evolution, and I wish that you would apply the same vigorous standard to all the beliefs in your life.

            • Korny

              Dead horse is sick of being beaten….

              And if the guys thinks he saw Creation, then I’ll guess that yes, he thinks he saw the Cruxifiction.

            • John C

              Apply any standard you wish Tele, I am never offended my friend for it is no longer “I” who lives, but Christ in me. Yes, I was at the cross, I was in Christ and I died. Will you die to Self? So that You might really live?

              Who has been resurrected in us? What is this “good news” really?

              It’s more beautiful than you can imagine. Divine Imagination…that’s a powerful faculty of the spirit realm. All the best…

            • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

              John C,

              I wish you well, but when you say things like “Divine Imagination…that’s a powerful faculty of the spirit realm” you must realize by now that those phrases are absolutely devoid of meaning to me.

              “Spirit realm”? That does not mean anything to me. “Divine Imagination”? I do not see anything in the context of a higher being having “Imagined” it. What would that even entail? “powerful faculty”…so powerful that two-thirds of humanity today is on the wrong frequency?

              XM and Sirius seem to have better reception than Yahweh…and you can only blame the receivers to a point, because most of those people *are receptive* in a quest for some sort of spiritual fulfillment. Besides, XM doesn’t ask for ten percent of my income. ;)

            • rodneyAnonymous

              Telepromter, don’t you Know that capitalizing Words automatically makes them Meaningful? Who are you to Question them?

        • http://avertyoureye.blogspot.com/ Teleprompter

          John C,

          I was never a monkey. We had a common ancestor.

          Science: it works, when you know what you’re doing. :D

      • J.R.

        Thanks for letting me know that. To tell you the truth, I think the media overhyped it, but I take your point. Remember, that it wasn’t that long ago that Einstein’s E=MC2 was deemed absolutely correct. Maybe in time, so will this. Tele, thanks for your comment.

  • Pingback: Lakeland Revival – the aftermath. « Hello Universe, This Is Nessie

  • Jersey

    Here are 3 healers and how we treat them. Notice the difference between #2 and #3.

    Healer #1: Board certified, healing ability comes from education, MD, insurance, peer review, ongoing education requirements, provides pills, injections, physical treatments. Takes your money.
    Healer #2: No medical training required, no insurance, provides pills, injections and physical treatments. Takes your money.
    Healer #3: No medical training required, healing ability comes from saying they have it, no insurance, provides people with false hope and no medications. Takes your money. May ask you to stop seeing healer #1.

    Without religion, both #2 and #3 go to jail.

    However, because #3 says his healing ability comes from God, the faithful see attacks on him as attacks on their faith. I suppose that he’ll have their support is until he is caught (a) with a prostitute, (b) in bed with a man, (c) doing crystal meth, (d) using everyone’s money for all the above.

    Didn’t Christ warn about these kinds of guys?

  • Jersey

    the reason that creationists cannot accept evolution is that if god did not create adam and eve in the garden, then there was no fall from grace. If there was no fall from grace, then there is no original sin. if there is no original sin, then what is jesus doing on that cross?

    there are none so blind as those who will not see.

    what’s funny to me is when creationists mock scientists for saying that we all came from a rock, when, in genesis, god made adam from dust,dirt and air.

    btw, i think John C is pulling everyone’s leg here. gotta be a redditor.

    • Question-I-thority

      Also, Pauline theology goes right out the window as Paul bases justification by faith on a literal two Adam theory.

  • BrianM

    I don’t even see where John C gets his vision of God. What he sees as transcendental insights could just be mental illness. The God of the Boble is certainly closer to the Joel’s Army view than John C’s touchy-feely amalgamation of things not Biblical or traditional. For every God is Love there is a God will smite you.

  • Pingback: The Line Between Faith and Recklessness « theophiliacs

  • ExSunriseCampFolks

    Yes It’s TRUE Todd Bentley Is A SCAM And Has the Same People Going Up For Healings and Even Did This At Our Ex PENTECOSTAL Church Called Lighthouse “PENTECOSTAL” Stony Plain We Were Told This TRUTH By Ex PASTORS,Members and Even Non Since 2007 And Now we BELIEVE THIS TRUTH !!! What Brent Told Us And Many Others Till We Saw The REAL LIGHT in 2008 !!!!

    Todd Is Stealing Our Tithes”$$$” For His NEW Motorbikes,Clothes And New Clothes for His 2nd Wife What He Should Not Have A AFFAIR Behind His 1st WIFE And STEALS/LIES PEOPLES LIVES And Most Of All $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ !!!!!

    Just Like Archibald “Archie” Binnie Having These New Thought Pastors Or Honestly They Are $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$/Cult Pastors And Even Worse We Call our Church Lighthouse Church because We Don’t Want Too Say The REAL NAME Lighthouse PENTECOSTAL Church So We Don’t SCARE PEOPLE Off Of The TRUTH And Teaching Resurgence/Emergent/Word Of Faith “Prosperity”CULT” Gospel !!!!!!!!!

    • Len

      Is there an app to translate this into English?

      • Francesc

        I loVe rANdoM CapitaLIzaTioN

      • Mike

        It’s the button on your keyboard labeled ‘Delete’….

        • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

          Random caps hurts my eyes :-(