What Does God Need With a Starship?

Captain Kirk asks a great question: Why does God need a starship?

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And while we’re at it, why does God need or want to sung to by a bunch of “sinful” humans every Sunday? Why did he command people to sacrifice animals — and why did it please him? Why does he demand to be believed in, yet offer no evidence? Why would he torture people forever for not adopting a specific theology? Why would he have a son, and why would his “plan of redemption” have him executed painfully — and then not even work for anyone who doesn’t believe the event didn’t happen? Why does he have a “kingdom” in heaven surrounded by weird angels that worship him night and day, singing to him about how great he is?

He’s either the most vain, petty, and childish being in the universe, or just an imaginary being created by vain, petty, and childish humans.

  • Baconsbud

    I agree completely. I have asked why does a perfect being need anything, including worshipers or material things.

    • Joe

      God doesn’t need us. We need God.

      • Bill

        Prove it.

  • Sunny Day

    Because god is constrained by its own perfectness?

  • http://tabbiesgarden.wordpress.com Tabbie

    Why indeed.

  • Elemenope

    Damn it. I had *almost* purged all memory of that movie from my head for good, and then I surf to Unreasonable Faith, and all that hard work goes right to pot.

    Thanks a bunch, Daniel. ;-)

  • Sunny Day

    From a talk with a godbot:
    “You assume that the law of God is arbitrary, that God could choose to make the law be whatever He wanted it to be.

    God could no more make the moral law in a different way than he could make the laws of mathematics a different way. All of these abstract laws are an expression of His nature and character.

    God’s character is the basis for good attitudes. God’s actions are the basis for good behavior. God’s character and morality cannot change because His being cannot change.

    God’s knowledge is the basis for the laws of logic, and by consequence the laws of mathematics. He cannot learn or forget. His knowledge is unchanging, and everything He knows must fit together into a coherent account. Logic helps us spot inconsistencies in our own views, the places where our knowledge does not fit together coherently.

    God could not make the laws of morality or the laws of logic differently than what they are. God, being who He is, must create as an expression of Himself.

    Things being what they are, the laws of morality cannot be any different. We know this intuitively whether we admit it or not. We know some things are right and some things are wrong. That is the way the universe works. We know it full well.”

    I find it funny that this god that He speaks of is smart and powerful enough to create all of reality but is simultaneously trapped by the circumstances of its own existence. It is both all powerful and pitiable.

    • claidheamh mor

      I find it funny that this god that He speaks of is smart and powerful enough to create all of reality but is simultaneously trapped by the circumstances of its own existence.

      Ahhhahahahahaha! And the christian fundies have to rescue him!

      Well crowed!

      • Siberia

        I know right – it all boils down to “it is so because it is so, now suck it up and worship me”.
        No, thanks.

    • Felix

      Well, the god he describes isn’t even smart, anymore than a windblow is. Being smart concerns making decisions to find the optimal solution – knowing all exactly precludes even the possibility of making a decision. What this person prays to is stasis.

    • Olaf

      Hey wait! Wasn’t god supposed to be able to do anything?
      He can’t change himself, so he is not that perfect after all!

  • LRA

    Yes– apparently biblegod is soooo needy that he threatens to torture us if we leave him:

    me: “I’m leaving. You just aren’t doing it for me anymore, biblegod. I’m sick of your controlling ways. I’m sick of your abuse. I’m sick of your misogyny. I just want to be happy and live my life, biblegod.”

    biblegod: “No! I can change! I’ll change! Don’t leave me! Please, don’t leave me!”

    me: “No, biblegod. You just don’t get it. You’re the same yesterday, today, and forever. You said so yourself.”

    biblegod: “No! Please! Please! I’ll do anything for you! I’ll… I’ll… kill myself!”

    me: “Why bother? You don’t love me. You just want to control me. Whatever. I’m outta here, biblegod!”

    biblegod: “You’ll be sorry! I’ll make you sorry! If you leave me, I’ll torture you! I’ll put you in a burning hell from which there is no escape! Now, love me or I’ll torture you forever!”

    (horns start growing out of biblegod’s head)

    biblegod: “I said LOVE ME or I’ll TORTURE YOU you worthless sinner! You pathetic excuse of a human being! I am GOD! Do you know how many people are DYING to be with me??? I could have had anybody, but I chose you! I elected you, you ungrateful wretch! I am going to make you SO SORRY! I’ll burn you forever! FOREVER!!!”

    • John C

      This still assumes an independent Self, an apart from Him understanding that is really a mis-understanding. You can never “leave” Him for in Him we live and move and have our very being. You can deny Him, reject Him via an unrenewed (the carnal mind is death) mind but since He is in and through all things, you are only opposing yourSelf.

      Paradoxical Parternity…

      • Sunny Day

        “You can never “leave” Him for in Him we live and move and have our very being.”

        If that’s true then you’ll be stopping your moronic drivel, right? After all we’re already with him.

      • LRA

        Wait… who’s assuming things here? Do you have any way to back up what you just told me? Is there any way for me to verify what you just said?

        • John C

          Not as long as you make the world of physical science your God (what/who you believe, who has your ear/mind/heart and loyalties) since it remains a self assumed limitation but “appears” to be true (judge not by appearances) to our natural eyes and glorified faculties of reason which are merely shadows.

          So we are back to the age old question…tell me, how many apples fell from the orange tree today? The answer of course is none. As long as you continue to look in the wrong vineyard (tree of knowledge) the things of the spirit (tree of life) will remain incomprehensible, foolish and other-wordly.

          So what is the answer? A transplantation into the heaveny (meaning spiritual) vineyard where from we “judge with righteous judgment” meaning we see things as they really are, as God see’s them.

          When you do this, you will no longer have a jaded perception of Father, will no longer post comments like the one above which is contrary to His true nature/character and heart toward us, for then you will see and discern with spiritual (true) eyes.

          The OT is God viewed thru the lens of the tree of the knowledge of good AND evil. But when you switch vineyards…you will see aright, truly.

          You asked LRA….I appreciate you even if I piss you off, even if you dont appreciate me I will still tell you the truth cuz you deserve nothing less, and He is Love.

          • Sunny Day

            “You can never “leave” Him for in Him we live and move and have our very being.”
            “Not as long as…..”

            Figured, just another lie from john c who claims to want the “truth”.

          • LRA

            First of all, I’m not mad at you. I just want to question what you say because I sincerely have no way to verify it. You talk about a spirit realm that I have no way to detect. You mention a tree of life that I have no way to touch. You make claims that cannot be demonstrated. So they just don’t have that much value to me, although I recognize that they have value to you.

            The problem is, JC, that if you cannot demonstrate your claim, but still insist that people believe it, you are stripping us of a very useful defense. You ask us to be naive like a child, and you don’t see how this can be used as a mechanism of control???

            If I believe your basic premise that there actually is some kind of spirit plane, what will you ask me to believe next? That women are inferior to men? That science is wrong and creationism in right? That I’m not allowed to enjoy my body lest I fear being forced to become a mother?

            This is exactly my problem with religion. I can’t actually verify anything you say, so I have to blindly accept it all. Given the pain that this has caused me in the past, I’m gonna have to say no thank you. I will happily take god off the throne of me and put me back on it. I will happily make my own decisions and hope that if there is a god, it is big and gracious enough to understand (which is not what biblegod is).

            But thanks for trying, JC.

            • John C

              Fair enough LRA…all the best to you. We survive to talk and share another day! :)

          • 2-D Man

            I’m not looking for apples. I’m looking for oranges. If the apples exist, I should be able to see the orchard, but people only point to empty fields or declare that the fields are full of invisible fruit trees.
            Someone should be able to bring me some apples, just as I bring them oranges, but they just bring baskets of air, sometimes containing one of the oranges that I picked.
            But the oranges sustain us. They keep us alive and make our lives better. Why should I stop picking them to chase after something that does not seem capable of sustaining us at all?

            • John C

              Yea, the oranges are fallen man’s interest whereas the apples used to be, we are not what we once were, but if we knew who we were originally created to be (hint see Jesus) then we would long for restoration.

      • Kodie

        “This still assumes an independent Self

        REALLY?

        , an apart from Him understanding that is really a mis-understanding.

        It’s not “really” a misunderstanding. It may be from your fruity little cloud, “really,” but your cloud isn’t anything more than you think it is, “really.” God does not exist, friend. That’s just something you believe in. The difference between real and pretend, learn it!

      • claidheamh mor

        John C, you idiot, why would the life force in which we live and move and have our being need a religion, a sacrificed son, christianity —- or any goddamned thing?

        • Sunny Day

          Because John needs it to. Its a god of his own making, but he refuses to consider it.

        • Roger

          I bet you won’t get a coherent answer to that question, claid.

    • Sunny Day

      later on….
      biblegod: Hey baby, how’s it going?

      LRA: I’m doing good.

      biblegod: You know, I’ve been missing you.

      LRA: Sorry to hear that.

      biblegod: I thought about what you said, and I think I understand now. I want you to know I died for you.

      LRA: Really? That’s very flattering…

      biblegod: Really. So now we can have a fresh start if you want….

      LRA: That’s very flattering. How did you die?

      biblegod: I took mortal form and reexamined some of my previous selfish stances on life and existence and changed it to a more peaceful loving message. Then I died. For you. For everyone, but mostly you.

      LRA: How did you take mortal form?

      biblegod: Well, I met this girl. I think her name is Mary.

      LRA: ( Icily ) Oh really?

      biblegod: (oblivious) Yes, you would like her alot, I think you two would really get along.

      LRA: ( Icily ) Go on.

      biblegod: Mary is married to this good guy named Joe. I knew they’d be the perfect couple for baby me. So I impregnated Mary and she gave birth ….

      LRA: (interrupting) Wait a minute! Did you think having some kind of orgy with Joe and Mary make me More likely to take you back or Less?

      biblegod: But baby…

      LRA: No, Fuck this I’m outta here! I can’t believe I almost fell for it! I’m not wasting any more time listening to you.

      • LRA

        Ha! :) Next thing you know, biblegod will be stalking me…

        • John C

          Yea, they call Him the hound of heaven for good reason-He ever lives to chase our hearts, is hopelessly in love with His “runaway” (in Adam) creation longing that we might return home once again (in Christ). Think prodigal son, a Father looking every day for His sons (meaning spiritual offspring, not gender) return.

          • Kodie

            Could you find a hiding spot so good, god can’t find you? He pretty much sucks at this hide-and-go-seek, don’t he? If god can do anything, why does he make everyone wait until they die for the good stuff? Seriously, he could just as easily have made a lot better world for everyone and showed his face every once in a while. You can’t tell me one person ruined it for EVERYONE, and now we all have to live like we do. That’s the stupid way to exact vengeance. If god loves people, and there’s no reason he should (I don’t), he does really weird things to show it. I think he’s really awkward at it actually. Having his son die on the cross is flirting? You are out of your mind!

          • Sunny Day

            More lies from John C.

            The abusive “father” kicked the children out and he’s waiting for their return?

        • Siberia

          But he does! That’s why he invented LDS and Mormons and, and, and…!

    • wazza

      Saddam:

      Some people say that I’m a bad guy
      They may be right, they may be right!
      But its not as if I dont try
      I just fuck up!
      Try as I might.
      But I can change, I can change!!!
      I can learn to keep my promises, I swear it!
      I’ll open up my heart and I will share it!
      Any minute now I will be born again!
      Its not my fault that Im so evil
      Its society, society.
      You see, my parents were sometimes abusive
      And it made a prick of me!
      But I can change, I can change!
      I can learn to keep my promises I know it!
      I’ll open up my heart and I will show it!
      Any minute now I will be born again!

      Satan:

      But what if you never change?
      What if you remain a sandy little butthole?

      Saddam:

      Hey Satan!
      Dont be such a twit
      Mother Teresa wont have shit on me!

    • Joe

      God doesn’t control you. You’ve got free will.

      • Custador

        If you could use your free will to choose to stop spamming religious derp, I’d appreciate it.

  • Arlo

    Or put more simply… what would a “perfect” being *need* with anything?

  • nomad

    Well, God wouldn’t need a spaceship. But if he had one, wouldn’t that make him, like, you know,…God?

    • nomad

      Starship! I meant Starship! Those are the ones with the weapons, right? Whaddaya think happened to Sodom and Gommohra? Photon torpedoes!

  • eindenker

    Of course God doesn’t *need* a Starship — God just knows their freakin’ COOL.
    Bet he’s got a robot too. And a lightsaber…

    • LRA

      So god is Darth Vadar?

      • nomad

        I prefer to think of him as Galactus.

  • http://whyareyousofat.wordpress.com/ McBloggenstein

    Good stuff.

    I’d also forgotten about that movie scene. I can’t remember, did we ever find out what that supposed “god”-type character was in the movie? Probably OZ behind the curtain?

  • trj

    Well, I for one am glad to see that God is trying to be more cool. It used to be he dwelled on a mountain top, in a tent in the desert, or in a temple. Boooring. Now, a spaceship, on the other hand…

    • John C

      He wants to dwell…in you. InChristed man(kind) is true, original humanity.

      • Joe B

        He wants to dwell…in you.

        Anyone else creeped out by that statement?

        • John C

          You’re thinking in fleshly ways, He is Spirit, He is love.

          • Kodie

            He wants you to be obsessed! He’s obsessed. You can be codependent together!

  • UU4077

    Oh, grow up! You should know by now that that’s not the real God!

  • Soulless

    We are told that Gods demand people to believe in them for the same reason that Tinkerbell needed people to believe in fairies.

  • Tully

    If god had a spaceship, could he use it to go back in time (being omnipotent and all, it would seem he could)?

    Then why didn’t he go back in time and prevent the fall of man?

    You know, maybe move that tree out of the center of the garden or not create the serpent (humans in general have a distaste for snakes, why make them at all)?

    But then again, being omniscient, he must have known that those things were coming.

    It would seem to me that if an omnipotent, omniscient god did exist, he would have already had a time traveling spaceship and would have gone back in time and fixed a lot of things that an omnipotent, omniscient god wouldn’t have caused in the first place.

    • Kodie

      I think about this in terms of Intelligent Design. If he knew how things would be now, why did we have to wait so long as a civilization for pants, frost-free refrigerators, and squeezable ketchup bottles? For all John C talks about “fleshly” things (word itself makes me shudder every time), what kind of idiot who can see the future makes the world the way it was and waits for it to become like it is now? There’s some kind of time investment in designing a world that is supposed to not even matter – that plain doesn’t make any sense at all.

      • Francesc

        “what kind of idiot who can see the future makes the world the way it was and waits for it to become like it is now?”
        A sadistic idiot?

    • nomad

      “It would seem to me that if an omnipotent, omniscient god did exist, he would have already had a time traveling spaceship and would have gone back in time and fixed a lot of things that an omnipotent, omniscient god wouldn’t have caused in the first place.”

      Maybe he already did. Maybe things were even worse than they are now and God went back and fixed them but they were so unimaginably bad that this is the best that he could do.

      • http://metroblog.blogspot.com Metro

        Nah–he’s all-powerful and all-loving–says so right here on the label. So if everything’s screwed up, it’s all his fault!

        • Elemenope

          There you go, believing ads again.

          • http://metroblog.blogspot.com Metro

            Well it also says He’s the Truth incarnate. So there.

  • claidheamh mor

    Excellent.
    And why would he need to be “glorified” — whatever the hell that is?
    And why would he need all these crazy fundies defending his ass?
    And why would he be a he?

  • Jerome

    BibleGod has simply been modelled on autocratic rulers of the time.

    • trj

      Not to mention that he’s modeled after how the Bible’s many different authors think God should be. The Pentateuch with its varying and sometimes self-contradicting characteristics of God is a striking example of this.

  • http://www.vidlord.com VidLord

    wow great thread. Reminds me of when I asked a seasoned monk/theologian the question: “Why would God get angry?” His response: “Because God needs to speak to us in terms we can understand.” My response: “How do you know that?”

    • trj

      Be careful with such questions, Vidlord. You might make God angry.

    • Roger

      What was the seasoned monk/theologian’s response to that, VidLord?

      • http://www.vidlord.com VidLord

        Roger, I’m waiting for his response. We have to communicate via snail mail as they don’t use the internet and live on a communal farm. I’m extremely skeptical of anyone that presumes to speak for the mind of God.

  • http://www.topix.net/forum/news/evolution/TNAA77AA Noodly James

    I am an editor for Topix.com at the above link. Rest assured, I am not a creationist or DI puppet. Having come across a link to your site at pharyngula, I decided to pop in. I appreciate this site and it’s insight immensely .
    -
    If anyone is interested in some really idiotic arguments, please peruse the link I placed. We can always use more people to fight the good fight especially people with a background in religion, something I cannot relate to. The funditards, cretins, discovery idiots will make themselves evident within short notice.
    -
    If you are looking for other people who have followed logic

    http://exchristian.net/testimonies/2009/05/bible-is-no-longer-worthy-of-my-faith.html

    is a great place.

  • http://none Noodly James
  • http://none Noodly James

    Wow. Conversation ender. (crickets)…..

    • nomad

      Thanks Noodly. I’ll check it out.

      • nomad

        I may however be a cretin. I’m not sure.

        • http://none Noodly James

          If you refer to yourself as a cretin, I doubt it.

  • Kris

    I have just one challenge to post to all of you die hard christian fat heads, show me one piece of solid evidence that is undisputible that proves what you said

  • Steve

    You ask why God “needs” to be sung to by a bunch of sinful humans? That question is akin to asking why parents “need” their kids to make drawings for them to hang on the refrigerator. The answer is that they don’t. But it is still pleasurable when those we love, and whom we created and are responsible for raising choose to love us, and choose to do things to demonstrate that love to us.

    Christ is referred to as the “Son” of God, but biblically, he is God in human form. As such, it is God himself who chose to sacrifice himself in order to save his us… again, something any loving parent would do. However, if a child chooses not to love his parents, and thus chooses to forfeit both the the sacrifices the parent made for them, and the wisdom passed down to them, then there is nothing that parent can do to force that child back. All they can do is continue to love that child, and be there for them should they choose to return. If the wayward child makes choices that lead to his/her death, then unfortunately, there is nothing that can ever be done to restore the lost relationship. Note: I’m talking about good parents. We all know there are plenty of bad parents out there.

    Likewise with God, we have all made choices that lead to spiritual death. We can choose to restore our relationship with God up until the point of death, but afterward that ability is lost. Hell is not a place where we are eternally tortured on some medieval device (or whatever) but simply a place where we can no longer receive the love of God. A torture in it’s own right, but a torture of our own choosing, not Gods.

    • Kodie

      God is not my parent. Analogies are interesting but don’t prove any god. Children don’t make art because they love their parents, they do it because the teacher tells them what to make, or they make something on their own that has no bearing on whether they love their parents, they just like gluing and fingerpainting. Parents are not gratified by this either. You are kidding me. Parents are overwhelmed with piles of shlt art they have to save or curate sensitively because their kid made it, not because they love it.

      Once again, some sentimental person has attributed a random transaction between parent and child as an expression of the kind of love people should have for a god who loves them. God did not become Jesus and sacrifice himself, and either, what kind of love is that? It appeals to simple emotions, try having some complex emotions, or thoughts, and say – An analogy of that would fill up a psychology textbook on the guilt complex. I’m god, I pretended to die to win your sympathy, dirty trick. Call your mother once in a while!

      • Steve

        I didn’t say anywhere in my post that I was trying to prove the existence of God with that analogy. That’s up to each individual to decide. A question was asked as to why God, should he exist, need these things. I simply answered that question based my own search for God, and the experiences with the children in my life.

        • Kodie

          If you submit to being treated like an infant in the eyes of the lord, that’s your issue. The creation of god is in relative terms to what we see between people. You can only find comfort with a deity you relate to as a parent, because it models after earthly relationships you’re already familiar with. Pretend you are a child, act like you can’t know anything, defer to the parent. It’s pretty insecure that adults are trained to need this in order to navigate their lives. Do you not wonder why atheists think you’re less intelligent? Because you love to be less intelligent, and you’re cowards. I would not even want a child to feel like that if I were their parent.

      • John C

        ‘God is not my parent’

        Summarizes the error and condition of mankind (who is a God-kind). If Love is not your Parent dearest Kodie, if you have not been born of Him…ahh but you have and that, that is the gospel (the good news) that the world must know and be known by, that we all have One Father (www.onefather.com), one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

        Abba Father

        • Kodie

          You’re never going to be reasonable, so — whatever John. Post your little spam evangelism, consequences or no. It’s a myth. I have heartfelt nothing for this god. I love humans sometimes and hate them, and that is life. No one is in charge of me, so I just must know what to do. That’s scary to you. “Bad news.” The “bad news” is your imaginary friend isn’t helping you, it’s you with love in your heart going around being John C. That fuzzy feeling of jesus in you is you alone, you’re the light that’s lighting up those around you.

          • John C

            Happy New Year Kodie, all the best.

  • Ty

    Spam!