Last week Ireland passed a blasphemy law — anyone who utters or publishes “blasphemy” is now guilty of a criminal offense. Here’s an excerpt from the law:
Section 36
(1) A person who publishes or utters blasphemous matter shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable upon conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding €100,000. [Amended to €25,000]
(2) For the purposes of this section, a person publishes or utters blasphemous matter if (a) he or she publishes or utters matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion, and (b) he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage.
Section 37
(1) Where a person is convicted of an offence under section 36, the court may issue a warrant (a) authorising any member of the Garda Siochana [police] to enter (if necessary by the use of reasonable force) at all reasonable times any premises (including a dwelling) at which he or she has reasonable grounds for believing that copies of the statement to which the offence related are to be found, and to search those premises and seize and remove all copies of the statement found therein, (b) directing the seizure and removal by any member of the Garda Siochana of all copies of the statement to which the offence related that are in the possession of any person, specifying the manner in which copies so seized and removed shall be detained and stored by the Garda Siochana.
You know what’s blasphemy in my religion? Not being able to blasphemy.
Which means that anyone who supports this law should be fined, because it causes outrage among others in my “religion.” (Yes, I realize atheism isn’t a religion, but I’m willing to mislabel it to show how absurd this is.)
But who cares about atheists, right? So how about Protestants in Ireland? Are they allowed to say that Jesus isn’t actually in the communion crackers? That causes offense and outrage among Catholics. Or perhaps they could suggest that the Pope is just another misguided buffoon on his way to hell. Oops, outrage again. Can they publish theology books saying that Mary didn’t ascend into heaven, that purgatory doesn’t exist, that saints can’t hear prayers, that priests are not needed to meditate between God and man, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
Can Muslims publish books claiming there is only one God and the trinity is a bunch of bullshit? That would cause outrage among both Protestants and Catholics.
Religion itself needs the freedom to blasphemy, as that is what religions are based on. One person’s theology and orthodoxy is another person’s blasphemy and heresy.
If you want freedom of speech for yourself, you have to be willing to give it to others.
The only thing this law deserves is offense and outrage.
I think it is a dangerous law, but
“he or she intends, by the publication or utterance of the matter concerned, to cause such outrage”
so that “intentionality” -appart from having to be proved in the court, I suppose- would let all religions stating their own bullshit without being guilty.
Of course, atheists can’t. That may be a reason for recognizing some new religion -let’s say pastafarianism or something like that
What’s that sound?
… yeah, it’s the sound of freedom of speech dying a miserable death.
I don’t know whether to be depressed or laugh at the backwardness of Ireland.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/ian-odoherty/all-hail-the-tree-1818805.html
reading again…
“thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion”
so the judge will decide if there is a “substantial number of the adherents of that religion” who feel they are being insulted? Will they do a poll between the “believers”? Does the total number counts, or the proportion?
I suppose that law is only valid for religions acknowledged by the state. If that’s not the case, I’m planning to settle on Ireland and begin my own religion :-)
What happens if one opens the Church of Blasphemy, dedicated to blaspheming against every other church in existence? I wonder…
As far as you are doing it because your religion says so, and not with the intention of offend them…
I respect their beliefs, so they should respect mine when I believe they are idiots
-sorry, I’m really pissed at those legislators, specially by the fact that that law is being passed in europe
There, there. It’ll die a horrible death, I hope, soon enough. I don’t think even the Irish (no offense) will tolerate it for long.
I am from Ireland, and I am one of many who is totally confused as to why this law should have come into being in the first place. Even the religious groups never asked for it. Blasphemy is called out as an offense in the Irish Constitution, but no-one ever bothered to legislate for it because of the difficulties in defining what blasphemy actually meant in the first place.
Then along comes Minister for Justice, Dermot Ahern. He has been updating our defamation laws and in the course of his efforts, he asks his legal people if he needs to legislate for blasphemy too. These guys say yes, Dermot agrees with them, disregards the tidal wave of opposition and pushes through the legislation. So a few months later, blasphemy becomes a law, punishable by 25,000 euros. The whole thing is psychotic and idiotic.
I thank Minister Dermot for doing this work because he has galvanised the opposition, and he has made it a top priority for all advocates of free speech to change the Irish Constitution. The secularisation of the god-soaked Irish Constitution has moved on quite a number of steps now as a result of this man’s lone anti-blasphemous run.
Good
This is what happens when your beliefs are founded in belief, and not evidentiary truth. You can’t get people to take them serious on their merits, so you get a bunch or irrational, like-minded idiots who have wiggled their way into positions of power to enact legislation protecting your absurd, fairy tale mythology from debate, discussion or expression.
Fortunately, it won’t be long before someone invokes the law as Daniel described (one major religion against another), and it will most likely be repealed as the waste of ink and parchment that it is.
Hm, I think it’s more likely that religions will be allowed to blaspheme against each other, at least to a certain degree.
A Protestant will probably be allowed to blaspheme against Catholics, denouncing their silly beliefs regarding transubstantiation and purgatory, because Protestantism (as well as any other religion) will by definition be opposed to these Catholic dogmas.
The question is whether this extends to atheists.
@ reckonr
I think this is what happens when you elect the wrong person to office.
Blaming the stupid actions of individual people on a religion frees them from responsibility.
I think people should hate stupidity rather than religion…
@JonJon
Hold both in contempt; they are synonymous.
thanks, love you too…
I would be surprised if the fundegelicals on this side of the pond weren’t salivating over the possibility of passing such a law here in the US.
Typical bully behavior. What they do and say is fine and should be listened to by everyone, but if one dissenting voice is raised then they have been offended, their beliefs have been mocked and their humans rights infringed upon ( e.g. motion detector lights and the sabbath).
“I would be surprised if the fundegelicals on this side of the pond weren’t salivating over the possibility of passing such a law here in the US.”
They’d interpret it as pandering to Islam. I’m sure some would like to shut down those people who antagonize them, but they’re not going to give up the right to be hostile to the Muslims.
I sort of agree with VJ. I don’t see any way that the religious right in our country would back this sort of legislation, if for no other reason than they don’t want to deprive themselves of free speech with respect to criticizing other religions (or even the people of their own with whom they disagree).
I was probably too brusque there. Most of the time I’ve seen this kind of legislation in Europe and England, it’s been driven by the rising population of Muslims. Witness the attempts to have a UN resolution against speaking blasphemy against religion, led by Muslim nations like Saudi Arabia.
Therefor I tend to associate such legislation with Islam, and I suspect the fundamentalists will, too.
I think the only sticking point for me with what you said is about the religious right wanting to forcefully silence those who disagree with them. That may be true for a few, but I would suspect they are the extreme minority. I’m speaking more from a gut reaction here, though. I could be wrong about that.
With respect to your comments linking it to Islam, I simply have to plead ignorance. Your comments make sense and seem to resonate with what I know about Islamic law, but I’m guessing you know more about that than I do.
I also think that the christian/catholic force is feeling the presenses of the muslims more and more that do not adapt to our life style and this is one way to push back.
At this rate of incoming muslims I think that in the next 10-20 years we have a religious war again in Europe between the Catholics and the Muslim when it reaches a critical mass just like Yugoslav.
I really hope I am wrong about this.
You are wrong about this :-)
Though some muslims in europe don’t give up their religion, most of them addapt -to some extent- to our lifestyle. Most of their sons are normal europeans, with a different religions or none at all. It’s not a religious or ethnic problem, but a social one. They come to europe and have to do the worst jobs, they have less oportunities, and they end in a ghetto.
I’m thinking here in France -les banlieues- some years ago. They were fighting from the same rights -not only in theory, but in a daily basis.
We won’t see a religous war, we’ll see social disturbs
I disagree. You are generalising as regards social mobility, this is an argument we used to hear a lot but less so since the London and Glasgow bombings. Those terror attacks were led by educated people who had been radicalised through their religious beliefs. The London bombers were British, born and bred in Yorkshire with accents to match, indeed, they would have stood out in London much more for their Yorkshire-ness than anything else. While social mobility has always been an indicator in criminal activity with fundamentalism the situation is much more complex.
It should frighten all those who live in the western world that the blasphemy laws introduced in Ireland are mush more recognisable to these radicals and those who invest so much time and effort in the process of radicalising them. This is a giant leap in a backwards direction. One can only hope the people of Ireland come to their senses and oust the people who have foisted this nonsense upon them.
No sure about of parts of the Europe but the UK has laws against incitment of relgious hatred based on the same laws for racial hatred. These are not blasphemy laws but are more intended to protect the right to religious freedom. So far they seem to have worked well in that you are at liberty to offend but not to “stir up trouble” against a relgious group.
This actually just reinforces the Irish constitution, in which blasphemy is already criminalised…
Blasphemy is criminalized in the Danish constitution as well, although the last verdict (an acquittal) was back in 1971. Various people have tried, but the courts haven’t accepted a case since then (not even the infamous Muhammed drawings).
I suppose it remains to be seen to what degree the Irish courts will actually enforce this law.
The law against blasphemy is actually not in the Danish constitution. It is just an ordinary law dating back to 1866. This is quite important since it will make it a lot easier to get rid of the law. However, there isn’t much talk about removing the law since, as you say, it hasn’t been used in court for almost 40 years.
Btw, the punishment is a fine or up to 4 months in prison. So in principle it’s worse than the new Irish law. The wording in the law is much less specific than in the Irish one, though. I’m guessing that’s one of the reasons it has not been used for many years.
A fellow Dane, I presume. You’re right, it’s not part of the constitution but found in a separate law. My mistake.
I should travel to Ireland on my pilgrimage to insult religions. :D
Seriously. WTF?
First Ireland has a massive Catholic child abuse case come out, and now they pass a blasphemy law? Six decades of abuse? I think the abuse victims have earned the right to say, “God damn this is bullshit”.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1184828/Revealed-decades-ritual-child-abuse-Catholic-schools-orphanages-damned-report.html
Hmmm Do you know that LaVeyan Satanism is, in fact, not Satanism? LaVey just named his religion ‘Satanism’ in order to mock Christianity. I’m thinking can we do the same? Maybe someone wants to establish a new religion, based on the idea of atheism, and named it Atheism? So it would be a proper religion and (maybe) recieve more respect?
I just read section 37(1) of that new law – Oh. Their. Fucking. GOD. It gives the Irish police the power to forcefully enter any property INCLUDING YOUR HOUSE if they think that there might be “blasphemous materials” inside – that’s everybody with an internet connection royally fucked then – and sieze them (and you) by force.
What. The. Phuk?!?! Seriously: If you’re in Ireland right now and you’re a Catholic official, extradite me on this: Fuck Catholicism. Fuck it for being racist, fuck it for harbouring paedopohiles, fuck it for first approving of the holocaust and then denying it, fuck it for appointing an ignorant Nazi as pope, fuck it for ruining and ending countless lives in countless countries by preventing Catholics from using condoms, thereby exascerbating the AIDS pandemic and sending countless young girls to back-street abortionists. Fuck you, Catholicism, and fuck all your bullshit too.
Classy…
couldn’t have said it better myself.
“It gives the Irish police the power to forcefully enter any property INCLUDING YOUR HOUSE if they think that there might be “blasphemous materials” inside”
I don’t know in Ireland, but I assume in all europe police has it easier to get into your house than in the US. Specially when they think you are doing something “illegal”
The time and mony spent drafting and passing this law could have been better spent sweeping streets and feeding the hungry. Shit they could have done both at once.
+1
I’m Catholic but cannot believe this is happening in a Western country in 2009. It’s not the civil authorities’ job to be worrying about blasphemy. The crime is against God so let Him take care of judging and punishing blasphemers. The civil courts have enough to worry about without wading into religious matters…
Thank you. It seems to me that the civil authority are called upon by people with little confidence in their God to mete out punishments. They must do the punishing now, just in case there is no Heavenly Court to settle matters.
I am wondering how far this deal about searching for documents and copies go. What if someone is writing blogs, does this then mean any computers that might save the blog to their computer can be taken?
Blasphemy is a victimless crime.
I don’t think religion will go away in my lifetime, but I hope to live to see the end of the oxymoronic idea of a “victimless crime”.
As Crimson Wife has already stated it’s a misnomer to call this a blasphemy law. If we called it by it’s real name, An Affinity Group Is Outraged Law, it might have less traction. HE’S MAKING US ANGRY! INVADE HIS HOUSE AND TAKE AWAY HIS MONEY!
Now that’s just bloody unbelievable. If you drive 250 mph and endanger fellow citizens, the highest penalty will be 500 bucks, but if you say something blasphemous, you have to give a hundred grands?
It just makes me wanna hit somebody.
It just makes me wanna hit somebody.
There’s probably a fine for that, too ;)
Yeah, but don’t forget it: you can’t say “damn god” while doing it, or the fine will be higher
This makes me glad we have the 1st Amendment.
It seems incredibly not Europe-Ireland-and-the-UK like. I think of them as ahead of the USA in state not being ruled by church, and as among countries that have far less religion and religious-right types, together with far better and safer living conditions.
They’re not trying to save the younguns from blaspheming the holy spirit are they? There’s a bible verse that says if you blaspheme God or Jesus, they’re man enough to get over it, but if you blaspheme the holy spirit, it’s forever. So an innocent high school kid wonders, “Gee, if I think ‘fuck the holy spirit’ I’m done for? Oooooooooops! Now I’m done for! Forever!”
Nasty, vicious way to do deep harm to a young person’s psyche.
“It is the ultimate act of hostility to teach a child that God is hostile.”
-My friend
I’m wondering if the idea behind this is something to do with Protestant/Catholic conflict?
That is, maybe there was some (scatterbrained) idea that somehow this would allow more thorough prosecution of the extreme hostility that comes out of that division.
Unlikely, sounds more like they wish to preserve the ‘sensibilities’ of the dominate religion in Ireland and not Northern Ireland where this law has no effect. On a more positive note there’s hope that as soon as the first few cases go through they will realise just have difficult it is to prove and the law will basically become worthless.
As part of the EU Ireland already has laws for freedom of religion but this should not have been extended to freedom not to be offended.
Not sure why you think the UK is involved here?
Sorry, not over-familiar with the legal jargon here. What EXACTLY constitutes a “significant number”. Oh wait, it’s any number you say say it is, right?
Congratulations Ireland, on passing the daftest and most self-contradictory law of the year (so far).
So, if I take Section 36 Part 2 to it’s logical conclusion, would it be fair to say that someone who writes (“publishes”) a review of The God Delusion or a similar book, maybe even on a blog, in which they support the conclusion of said book, they could be found guilty?
And furthermore, should they be found guilty, that will allow the police to forcefully enter a home and seize…. the computers the blog was published on? And, the source material for the review, such as any atheistic books or even any books critical of religion?
ummm….. can we say 1984 meets Fahrenheit 451?
… can we say stupid mets stupider and stupider’s even more stupid brother?
The Catholic Church must be jumping for joy with the suppression on speech they can now cause.
I think it’s a good law for Ireland, considering its recent history of religious violence. It’s a law against intentionally causing religious outrage. That SHOULD be illegal in Ireland, because it’s tantamount to inciting violence.
Yes welcome back to the dark ages, even here in Denmark we laugh of the irish, like we did over the censoring former polish government, that wanted to ban Kafka, Nietzche and Dostoyevski……
To qoute Monthy Pythin: Nobody expects the spanish inquisition ;))))
Good,
This law is in line with other laws getting our society closer to meltdown… Keep it up governments, the people will win in the end.
Get out of Ireland, and don’t go there.
Once the economy goes to shit
so will the government and it’s laws.