The Devil Made Me Do It: Mike Warnke’s Ministry of Lies

by Lorette C. Luzajic
Part 15 of the Pillars of Faith series

As kids, we loved the devil. Satan was the topic in youth ministry that didn’t make us nod off. The apocalypse might keep us awake, too — white horses and dragons made good fantasy reading that was otherwise forbidden. But devil stories were better. A pastor’s son had been “dabbling” in horoscopes, putting the family at risk of demon possession! One morning, he was shaving when the neighbor’s cat began talking to him from the window.

I was oblivious to the horror trends of the era, films where talking cats were a dime a dozen. Later, I heard the story again… and again. It was a standard and legal justification for execution in the witch burning trials, proof that the devil was pussyfooting around.

When Mike Warnke shared his lurid past as an army brat, drug addict and high priest of Satan, we were mesmerized. Mike’s book, The Satan Seller was in high demand. Kidnapped into the church of Satan after being shot, Warnke was saved by Jesus Christ. He came clean about baby sacrifices, summoning evil spirits, orgiastic perversions, rapes, Illuminati conspiracies, very long fingernails, ritual slayings, and magic spells. Mike, who billed himself a “Christian comedian,” put out spoken word albums about his conversion and about the dangers of Halloween, among other things, selling millions of books and records. Warnke was by far the coolest testament to Christ’s awesome powers. Defying the powers of darkness, he told his story to Oprah, Larry King, and more.

More than mere witness for Jesus, Warnke was internationally renown as the foremost authority on Satanism and the occult. He was a trusted advisor in law enforcement on Satanic crime and ritual abuse.

Celebrations of Dope

Pullquote: Journalists Jon Trott and Mike Hertenstein ran some background checks and Warnke’s story tumbled like a house of cards.

Today he continues to save souls with his ministry Celebrations of Hope. He looks more like a bishop in his white clerical robes than the freewheeling Jesus biker of his youth — and that’s because he IS a bishop. Sort of. Ordained by an independent priest into the Byzantine Catholic tradition, Warnke is not your average evangelist.

But then, no one knows just who or what Warnke is. Testimonials on his website refer to his honesty, integrity, humility, and humor. Yet the man can’t seem to “keep the story straight” from one book to another. Does he have two BAs or a PhD? How many times was he injured in Vietnam? When did he become a Christian? And how many wives has he had?

In 1992, Cornerstone, a Christian publication, said The Satan Seller was the source most responsible for the “Satan scare” that was in vogue those past few decades. Journalists Jon Trott and Mike Hertenstein ran some background checks and Warnke’s story tumbled like a house of cards.

Black Mass with Manson

Pullquote: All his friends and colleagues said he was lying.

Speaking to over 100 friends and colleagues, not one of them could verify strange behavior, track marks or wounds, or any other clues to Mike’s past. Everyone said he was lying. The calendar of full moon rituals didn’t even match up, and neither did other dates. A ritual with Charles Manson was quite the black magic: for Manson was at that time in jail. Claims of missing bodies thrown in dumpsters did not match any records.

Mike had asked friends to sign an authenticity affidavit for his book, but they refused, saying it was all bull. Pictures from the peak of Warnke’s Satan worship days showed a conservative nerd, not a strung out longhair with six inch fingernails. Mike’s involvement as a high priest of Beelzebub was limited to one or two Ouija sessions as a kid and possibly some rock n’ roll air guitar.

Far worse than tall tales, former wife Carolyn spoke freely about Mike beating the living hell out of her.

Backmasking for Jesus

Pullquote: I think we’re safer listening to Led Zeppelin backwards that Mike Warnke straight up.

In response to the dismantling of this ministry, Warnke said Satan was at work again. He stated that maybe he had “embellished” certain scenes to get the message across. One example was that the coven of 1,500 had only 13 members, a difference hardly worth mentioning. Mike stood by his story, saying it had happened exactly as described.

He was already in trouble with the IRS for tax evasion and misuse of ministry funds. Word Records dropped him as his lies caught up to him. There was no way out, so finally Mike confessed he had acted ungodly towards his wives and been a failure to others. But he would not turn his back on Satan — the story stands to this day, despite the complete lack of evidence and the multitude of holes.

I think we’re safer listening to Led Zeppelin backwards that Mike Warnke straight up.

But perhaps Mike really was in the hands of the devil. Jesus himself said, “You belong to your father the devil… because he is a liar and the father of lies.”

Lorette C. Luzajic writes about all kinds of interesting people at Fascinating People.

Where the Fire Comes From
You Can't Keep a Bad Man Down
Being Agent Scully
Bob Cargill on the Holy Grail
  • vorjack

    Mike, who billed himself a “Christian comedian,”

    That should have been our first tip off. You can be a comedian, you can be a Christian, you can be a comedian who happens to be a Christian, but you can’t be a Christian(tm) Comedian. As Eco reminds us, Jesus never laughed.

    • DDM

      I always see picture of him grinning though. Knowing he never laughed, that’s kiiiiiiiiinda creepy.

    • ChaplainJudi

      Chonda Pierce is a Christian Comedian. There are others though that is the name that comes to mind.

    • Jim Newman

      Good grief, if jesus never laughed, he must have been an unhappy, Jewish Homosexual.
      OY VEY

  • http://larianlequella.com Larian LeQuella

    So is this one of the main perpetrators of the “baby sacrifice” myth that haunted so many hysterical towns? I vaugely recall reading some rather haunting debunking of this myth, and the horrible effects it had on many people. In particular when people had “recovered” memories of abuse at the hands of these supposed satanic covens.

    It’s firghtening how gullible people are… But then, just look at ANY religion, and you see really how gullible people are!

    • ChaplainJudi

      Well, here are some facts for you to chew on.

      Any claims Mike has set aside, I work as a volunteer with an agency that looks for people who are missing. I would name it but would have to wait weeks for permission. The first missing persons case I went out on was three days prior to Halloween. I was shocked and dismayed when my trainer answered the mom’s question “What are the percentages of a recovery” The trainer took a big swallow and said “Prior to the three days before Halloween, recovery rates are about 68%. Three days BEFORE Halloween it drops to 13%.” There was no more discussion between my trainer and the mom about the percentages, but once back to our vehicle I asked why the difference. She said the covens kidnap people to use in human rituals – and are very thorough because all the body parts are used, so there is nothing to recover. That is why our family does not honor Halloween in any way. Now,do you think most covens are going to be honest with you about rituals? If you think they will, I have an iceberg hotel in the Sahara Desert I will be glad to sell you!

      • wintermute

        Yeah, you’re going to need to provide a citation for something like this. I’ve checked FBI and national police reports and statistics, as well as doing a general Google search, and I can’t find any evidence that there’s the slightest blip in clear-up rates for missing persons during Hallowe’en. So, can you point me to the evidence I so clearly missed?

        • ChaplainJudi

          I will be happy to get you the statistics. I have access to some records that Joe Public cannot access and I need to be sure I am allowed to give out those links. But there is public information that I have found for other groups. I am recovering from the “funky flu” so it may take me a few days. Thank you fior wanting to know facts and not opinions.

          • Jabster

            *coughs* bullshit *coughs*

            • Sunny Day

              The Earth-Shattering information about a massive conspiracy and cover up of murders should take a back seat to Your health issues. The miniscule effort required to post a link could be substantially hazardous to your well being.

              The Neo-Fluxumondium rays that are used to beam you to the secure location where you can pan-anally access the information have been known to blow simple flu like symptoms into a raging case of cranial rectal inversion.

          • wintermute

            So, you are claiming that every law enforcement agency in the country (and presumably around the world), along with the friends and relatives of the victims, is actively engaged in a massive conspiracy to cover up a systematic and predictable series of murders? Are there any agencies other than the one you claim to work for that have noticed these murders are happening, and that the clear-up rate for them is exactly zero? (After all, when was the last time anyone was convicted of conducting human sacrifice for Hallowe’en?)

            You’ll forgive me if I think that this is an extraordinary claim, and that I plan on withholding assent until such time as you can present more significant evidence than “I have secret statistics that I’m not allowed to show you”. And, as Elemenope points out elsewhere, why aren’t your employers doing everything they can to warn people about these terrible crimes? Why are they helping to cover it up?

            • Sunny Day

              Permission from the Mothership will be coming in the next few days. Why do you doubt so?

              While we’re waiting why don’t we try a personal relationship with Gandolf.

          • Cucumber

            You are aware crime statistics are high on ANY public holiday? Kids in costumes are running through neighbourhoods at night. I mean really.

          • wintermute

            it may take me a few days

            It’s been 10 days, which is more than “a few”, and no sign of any super-secret evidence for satanic Hallowe’en murders. Methinks perhaps absence of evidence is, in this case, evidence of absence?

  • phrankygee

    My wife and I were just talking about this guy the other day. (It must be a miracle! What are the odds?)

    I saw one of this guy’s stand-up shows when I was a wee little laddie, sometime during the Reagan Administration. My dad took me to see the show, but was upset afterward that Mike had a whole bit about a fat woman he called “large marge”. My dad is a bit portly (ok, obese), and didn’t think a “family friendly” show by Warnke should resort to making fun of fatties.

    I am pretty sure we bought one of his cassettes, but I don’t think I ever listened to it.

    • ChaplainJudi

      Did he also talk about tall Paul who is a little person and Tiny Tim who is 6’11? Did either of you bother to ask if he was actually talking about an obese person?

  • mikespeir

    I’ve been to two of his–well, presentations, I guess. I was a Christian during those times, both lots of years ago. The first was in Cheyenne, Wyoming. I remember him introducing his wife by a different name than I had read in “The Satan Seller.” But I blew it off, thinking I was just misremembering.

    Years later I attending another of his appearances at a big church in Lakeland, Florida. Only years later did I read the big Cornerstone expose. I realized Warnke’s lies and immorality had all been revealed years before I went to that last show. And yet that huge arena had been packed. To this day, I understand, he’s invited to speak at churches by pastors who will defend him tooth and nail. Such insuperably willful blindness!

    • http://camelswithhammers.com Camels With Hammers

      “Insuperably willful blindness”—-isn’t that faith in a nutshell?

      • ChaplainJudi

        Is that also what we call forgiveness? Remember Jesus said the Pharisees could minister without being a believer. The fact is Mike has touched many lives, and in eternity that is what will count.

    • Relles Natas

      Thanks for the info on Warnke, even though I got here a couple of months late. You should re-post this for Halloween.

      I got to this blog after being inspired to look the fool up on Google after seeing claims in the news by Pat Robertson’s ministry that witches have been busy praying over Halloween candy so that demons will enter the candy and “possess any children who eat it. Sheesh. I guess they’ll keep it up as long as the money rolls in.

      I was reminded of Warnke by that story because I got “saved” after reading ‘The Satan Seller” myself my freshman year at college in ’77. I bought his hoax hook, line, and sinker. A couple years later, while listening to one of his records with some other Christians, I noticed something that convinced me he was lying. He slipped up and had another member of the Navy calling him “Hey hippy” in recounting one of his ‘stories’, but immediately caught himself, knowing that people would realize his hair would have had to have been short while in the service, and so he began to morph, repeating “Hey A.B, hey A.B.” several times. He then claimed he didn’t know why, but when he was in the Navy people called him A.B. It was painfully obvious to me after that point that Mike Warnke was a sham.

      Though it took a couple of years more, I finally saw through the errors and contradictions that permeate the Bible and Christianity, and got “unsaved”. Nevertheless, I still feel the man owes me five years (the time I wasted), and thousands of dollars (the money I spent on tracts, books, records, etc), not to mention my collection of Playboys, Penthouses, and rock-and-roll records which I foolishly threw away or liquidated after coming to believe they were inhabited by “Satan” thanks to this con man and others of his ilk.

      Now I read on wikipedia that even by 1977 there was already evidence of his fraud. If only there had been an internet back then, I could have checked him out, thrown away the book, and moved on. But I was a naive young man, and Warnke and other sheisters took advantage of me. I hope they all burn in hell like they tell other people they will.

      Fool me once… uh…er….you can’t get fooled again!

      Happy Halloween!!

      • ChaplainJudi

        From your reply I see you tried religion. Religion sucks! But you know what doesn’t? A real relationship with Jesus Christ. So if you come to a point and realie the emptiness in your life, try the real thing!

        • Sunny Day

          Its about the same as a relationship with Harry Potter, but there’s a lot more guilt.

          • Cucumber

            but harreh pottah can see inside my mind and then his forehead burns when I do naughty things

  • http://thecheekofgod.wordpress.com/ tysdaddy

    Oh, the memories! Back in my Christian days, Mike was the shit. Read “The Satan Seller” and bought it hook, line, and sinker. Being good Christian kids, we even spent a majority of my bachelor party watching one of his videos. What joy! What fun!

    But something about him began to rub me the wrong way. And about that time, Mike Hertenstein & Jon Trott, Christians mind you, published their exquisite expose about Mike titled “Selling Satan.” More than just a book about Mike, it took a hard look at the entire Christian market and their efforts to market the Jesus Movement. This book is one of the best I’ve ever read, about any topic. If you don’t mind, I’ll include the link . . .

    http://www.amazon.com/Selling-Satan-Evangelical-Warnke-Scandal/dp/0940895072

    • phrankygee

      Your Bachelor party? Really? Dude, that is sad…

      I will see if I can get my hands on that book.

      • Yoav

        Sad indeed.
        Unless the video had some satanic orgy scenes in which case….

        • http://thecheekofgod.wordpress.com/ tysdaddy

          Sadly, no orgies. I so wish I could go back and do that one evening all over again . . .

          • http://thecheekofgod.wordpress.com/ tysdaddy

            And my apologies to the author is this post. I responded to quickly initially and didn’t notice the mention of Hertenstein & Trott. I guess a double plug ain’t bad though . . .

            Get the book . . .

  • elflocko

    I was wondering when someone was going to bring up Warnke. He was big when I was a kid (pre-expose), but I remember not feeling all that surprised when he was outed as a fraud…

    • Mogg

      I remember people being really disappointed that he turned out to be a fraud. I wonder now whether many of those people started to question the idea of satanism being widespread and dangerous. I get a feeling probably not many did.

  • http://givemesometruth.wordpress.com alastair

    One day Jesus saw Satan crying at the back of church. Full of compassion, He asked the devil: “Satan, why are you crying?”

    Satan, his face wet with tears, responded: “Your Christians!!! They blame me for EVERYTHING! When they can’t pay the bills, they blame me. When a natural disaster comes, they blame me. When their boss gives them a hard time, they blame me. For every bad thing that happens under the sun, they blame me. I feel so wrongly accused!”

    Satan’s a pretty evil dude, but the main problem is always the human one

    • Travis

      People like to say satan is pretty evil… But I have yet to read about him doing anything that would actually be considered evil. he seems more middle management, then lord of all evil when you get right down to it. He can’t even do anything without making sure to fill out the requisite forms and getting them rubber stamped by the big guy upstairs.

      • Mogg

        So, more like Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light? Darn you to Heck!

  • elflocko

    If anyone is interested, here is the original expose that revealed the fraud:

    http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/sellingsatan.htm

  • Richard Prins
  • klidov

    Sad to say, I fell for Mike Warnke’s BS hook, line, and sinker back in the early ’80′s. I actually fell for the whole “Satanic-Panic” drama. I was young enough (and naive enough) to believe that Mankind was the prize is a great tug-of-war between Satan & God.

    The problem with seeing demons (or demonic influence) in all things is…well…, you start to see demons in all things. And it makes little sense for a Christian to be focused on the work(s) of evil, till you kinda forget all about God & Jesus.

    I last saw Mike Warnke in 1989, outside of Chicago. He claimed that “…one half of all non-parental kidnappings (of children) are for use in pornography, or satanic murder”. I had allowed a lot of things to not be questioned in the name of faith, but that statement woke me up bigtime.

    Having family in law enforcement, I knew that statistic was not true. And, then I started to question all the drek from others, I believed in the name of faith. Of course, I had to get over the whole “..if you question it is because Satan does not want you to know the truth…” thing first.

    Mike Warnke did a serious disservice to real child victims and Christians. A lie told in the name of Jesus is still a lie.

    • john t

      All liars have a place in the pit of fire Mike or dont u know that ur a liar and a great disappointment but you knew that when u started the LIE.

    • ChaplainJudi

      I dont know what part of law enforcement you were in or if you are a liar yourself, but you and I both know that there are human sacrifices made by covens. Statements like that make me wonder if some of the people are part of covens trying to cover up the truth!

      • Blue

        Bullshit. Show proof or stop spreading lies.

        • ChaplainJudi

          As I responded to someone earlier in the blog who handled the question with dignity and class, I will be happy to provide facts as soon as I can find out what I am able to release.

          • JohnMWhite

            You believe it is handling yourself with dignity and class to call someone a liar because they don’t believe in extraordinary stories and don’t have access to your super secret info with all the extraordinary evidence to prove them?

            • Roger

              Oh, John, it’s called “gnosis.” See, ChaplainJudi has sooper seekrit knowledge that only her invisible sky daddy whispers in her ear…right through her tinfoil hat with Bible inscriptions on it (for better reception, of course).

          • Elemenope

            There is no such thing as secret public health, safety, and crime statistics. There are restrictions on releasing specific information about specific cases, but collated data is always available by law in US under the Freedom of Information Act.

            This is why they are justified in calling “bullshit” on your claims to access of secret statistics and evidence.

          • Sunny Day

            Shades of “Flying Monster Truck”

      • ChaplainJudi

        I am making this a “mass” response. klidov, I was not calling you a liar. For those who have accused me, reread my sentence. I said “I don’t know if you are a liar.” That says John may NOT be a liar, too! Sorry for any confusion on that.

        For those who try to get jabs in by saying I have super secret stories and statistics, they are not super secret stories, and there are trends that are not released to Joe/Jane public (I do not discriminate so lets make sure to use both names) for reasons. There is some information not open to me, but I dont resent their having “super secret statistics” because if you work with an agency you will kniow why certain inf0ormation has to remain confidential.

        I am going to take time tonight away from my recovery time and away from my family time, even time from my neighborhood who lost a member to suicide today, to locate public resources amd to find out which interagency sites are available to the public.

        I pride myself in handlling things with dignity and class, although sometimes my human side outweighs my spiritual side, so if I have not responded in a way that answered some of your thoughts but seemed to be tearing you down, I apologtize. We are to respond in the same love as Christ loved the Church.

        Thank you for listening to my thoughts, and I will continue to share them on a broader scale, since my health, family and community must come first.

        Always in His Service,
        ChaplainJudi

        • Blue

          Oh if that’s your definition of not calling someone a liar then I’m saying you may not be a child molester. You very well may not be. No confusion there I hope.

          Again put up these super secret resources you have or continue to be thought of as a liar and a braggart.

          • ChaplainJudi

            Wow, you spew out alot of hate! But I am told to love you as Christ loved the church, so I willl continue to do so.

            I will get the resources I said I would get, so calm down and give me time. I never said it was a secret. I said I need to find which sources are public and which I am allowed to take from or post a link to. I hope if you had a loved one missing you would want me to take that much care.

            I want to stay humble before God, so sir, in what way did I present myself as a braggart? It was not my intention. Could you tell me in civil language what was bragging?

            Thank you whoever showed me this was an athiest site. I had not noticed that before. But I stand behind every word I have said… it just may explain the hostility I have seen.

            • Elemenope

              The hostility you have seen is rooted to one and only one thing: you made bizarre, hateful, and fanciful claims about “covens” and abductions and human sacrifice, and then when pressed for any sort of evidence on the issue, demurred, claiming that some of the information may not be publicly accessible. To those few of us who have had the pleasure to work with law-enforcement or other government agencies on matters of public concern, or those many of us with two neurons to rub together and analyze such a claim with even the slightest critical eye, it smells of obfuscatory dissembling.

              If such a pattern actually existed, the conspiracy required to keep it from public view would have to be *massive*, well-disciplined, and motivated to do so. The notion of such a conspiracy existing stretches the bounds of credibility…no, wait, it utterly obliterates the bounds of credibility. For a scandal-hungry culture with 24-hour predatory news coverage and millions of soccer moms begging to be told to be terrified of whatever is going to prey upon their children next, if such a thing were real no secrecy rules would stop it from being public.

              Come to think about it, if it were real, and you did have access to such information, you would have a *moral* obligation to report it to the public, the law be damned. If what you say is true, you should be whistle-blowing at the top of your lungs with all the information you can find so that parents can protect their children from these wicked Halloween covens.

        • JohnMWhite

          You honestly feel the need to use someone’s suicide as a needle to jab at us for making poor you actually provide some evidence for your outlandish claims? That is reprehensible.

          • ChaplainJudi

            So let me get this straight. My sharing with you what I was also dealing with but choosing to take time to properly respond to you is using the tragedy to jab at you? Interesting!

            I will not respond to any more for several days while I take time to recover my health, assist my neighbors who want and need my encouragement, and while I gather my facts and access to the facts for those of you who honestly want to know. Some of you sound downright frightened for me to document my statement. By the way, I do shout it all year round!

            Now, how will you turn this posting into an attack or my being dishonest? You have to stretch really hard but I am sure many of you will find a way! And it will give many of you a chance to come up with an adequate response to this – but then you dont need an adequate one – just twist a few facts, ignore others and presto!

            What willl you come up with for the two days I will not visit this blog? Can’t wait to see the spin – or maybe I will be old news and you can go on hating someone else.

            • JohnMWhite

              I call you out once on your distasteful and blatant use of a tragedy to score points and you develop a persecution complex and presume that I will desperately try to spin things to make you look bad, and presume that I go about hating on people. We haven’t met, we have interacted just once before, and yet you know all this. I am impressed.

              I don’t need to spin anything, you are doing a great job yourself.

            • ChaplainJudi

              John, I was not using thisw tragedy! I simply said I was taking time from those who cared about our neighbor and others to try and answer some questions. If anyone is “using the tragedy” it is those who posted here.

              I am sorry if I misread you. I do not feel persecuted, to fact my husband and I were quite amused at the comebacks that you and others had. Bravo!

              If I have offended you or unfairly characterized what your words are saying, then forgive me. Interesting things about blogs and forums – people often draw judgements just on words alone. Thank yoyu for reminding me to be more careful about that.

              And I assume you will be doing the same about me?

  • Terry

    It isn’t that surprising that people like Warnke,Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, etc., etc. are being exposed as having mimistries who teach false doctrine for monetary gain. Jesus warned Christians of “wolves in sheeps clothing” . The apostile Paul commended the Bereans for checking out his sermons using the Bible as the absolute authority on what Paul preached. Those who use Warnke’s false ministry as an excuse for not accepting Jesus as Savior are just as deluded as these false ministries. Jesus’ life, death, and ressurection is the standard we follow, not the failures of men who intentionally or unintentionally falsify the Word of God.

    • CGoldy

      Thank you,Terry. I was getting tired of reading everyone jumping on the bandwagon to kick someone when they’re down. I am a Christian, and not ashamed of it! You are right on! – We shouldn’t misplace our faith in humankind. Jesus is the only way. I feel sorry for these commenters who have to trash something as good and pure as Christianity. We are in this world, but NOT of this world. I believe it was Paul who preached in 1 Corinthians, “If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.” (NIV) We have the hope of glory to come. I believe in prayer, and think Mike Warnke needs our prayer as much as any man, including these other commenters.

      • Elemenope

        I feel sorry for these commenters who have to trash something as good and pure as Christianity.

        Your unwelcome pity aside, who was it that said “know a tree by its fruits”? Christianity seems quite capable of producing both good and rotten fruit in equal measure, making it exactly as special as all the other things human beings have created.

        • ChaplainJudi

          Well, dear, that was a quote from the Bible. And your comment supported it. THANK YOU! For you see, those whose fruit is pure are those who have a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ, and those whose fruit is bitter either has walked away from the Lord or never was in relationship with him to begin with. So thank you for making the point as candidly as you did, because the human religions cannot produce the same sweet fruit.

          Here is an interesting fact. If you take all the predictions of Jesus Christ found in literature other than the Bible (327 to be exact) and take any given person, the chance of 13 of those things qapplying to someone randomly are the same chance as if you stacked the state of Texas one foot deep in quarters, one marked with an x, have a parachitist decide where to jump, and their inding the quarter right away. And yet all 327 came true in Jesus. I know what a difference he made in my life, and if I am deluding myslef what a wonderful deluson. But if it is real (and it is) then those who choose not to believe will miss out on eternal life, and incredible strength prior to his return. So is Christ a Liar, a Lunatic, or God’s son?

          • wintermute

            What are these 327 prophesies that are not in the Bible? Obviously, listing them all would be overly tedious for both of us, but can you tell us which works they are in, and perhaps provide a sample dozen or so?

            Yes, it’s highly unlikely that any set of prophesies would be true of a randomly selected individual, but the odds of them matching someone, somewhere are far greater, due to the Law of Large Numbers. And if the putative subject of these prophesies is only known through the writing of people who had a vested interest in all the prophesies being true, well, I’ll let you work out the odds of that one yourself…

          • ChaplainJudi

            I never said they were not in the bible. I said they could ALSO be found in other writings. Read the book by Josh McDowell “Evidences That Demands A Verdict.” They are all listed along with proof iof their accuracy.

            • wintermute

              Don’t have that book, and don’t plan on spending money on it. From what I’ve managed to find out at the University of Google, his only source for prophecies about Jesus is the Old Testament (which I’m led to believe is part of the Bible), though I may be wrong on that. Please, dig into his citations, and name a couple of non-Biblical works that he claims contain prophecies about the coming Jesus.

              This seems to be a decent analysis, but feel free to point out the errors in it. I’m sure they’re many and obvious.

          • Roger

            I’m gonna go with “liar” and “lunatic.” If I have to choose only one, I’ll go with “lunatic.”

            • wintermute

              Personally I go with “imaginary”.

      • Roger

        Oh, yays! You’re going to pray to your imaginary sky friend for us. Loverly. I believe in rational, critical thinking, so I’ll think for you CGoldy.

    • Siberia

      Jesus warned Christians of “wolves in sheeps clothing” .

      In one of the sweetest, sweetest attempts of long-term making of excuses, ever.

    • Sunny Day

      “…falsify the Word of God.”

      The word of god tells people to kill children, rape women and makes slaves of people, or are you one of those pick and choose which part of “god’s word” you follow.

  • Terry

    To Siberia,
    Your analogy of “wolves in sheeps clothing” makes no sense. We Christians do not make excuses to keep our faith real. It is not the Christians who choose to have false teachers mislead for gain, or for non-believers to invade our places of worship. You use this invasion of our faith as an excuse to show that Christianity is false. Jesus tells us not to worry about the non-Christians in the pulpits and the church. He says He will “separate the wheat from the chaff” which means He will personally remove the unbelievers from the believers. His church will then be without “spot or blemish”. Unbelievers invading our Christian faith is no different than communists covertly trying to overthrow the U.S. democracy. Is that the Americans fault?

    • Siberia

      We Christians do not make excuses to keep our faith real. It is not the Christians who choose to have false teachers mislead for gain, or for non-believers to invade our places of worship.

      Except those people are thought of as “good christians” by many and still thought so even after exposed. How many people still defend Kent Hovind as a good man, even after the tax evasion deal?

      It’s pretty damn easy to point to someone and say “no true Christian”.

  • Terry

    To Sunny Day,
    Have you ever opened a Bible? Luke 17:2- Jesus says it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. Rape women? The Ten Commandments speak about sexual purity. Make slaves of people? Jesus came to free the opressed from bondage. Come on now, you are blaspheming the Word of God. Maybe you are confusing the Koran with the Bible. Jesus says, “Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” He goes on to say I am the “Truth”. In other words, until you know Jesus, you will never know the truth. I hope you find Him.

    • Relles Natas

      Oh boy! A “real” Christian has arrived! Just what we needed.

      I’ll reply to both of these comments of yours.

      Joshua was commanded by God to kill children. And women. And animals. Every last one of them, in I opened a Bible many times, and was a true believer for several years, but when I read that bloody episode I was sick to my stomach. What kind of god of love could order such a thing? What kind of men of god could carry such an order out? You? I think so. “So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. And we utterly destroyed them, we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.” Deuteronomy 3:3-6

      60 cities. Every man, woman, and CHILD. See also the book of Joshua for more on this orgy of love.

      Slavery? “However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” Leviticus 25:44-46

      And why should it be the responsibility of “real” Christians’ to figure out who is and is not a “false” Christian anyway? In Acts 4 & 5, Christians were still “communists” who believed that the love of money is the ROOT of ALL evil, that it is EASIER for a CAMEL to go through the eye of a needle than for a RICH man TO ENTER the kingdom. So they sold all their possessions and had all things in common (i.e. communists), but when Ananias and Sapphira merely lied about a sum of money they were giving to the church both were struck dead. If God was so willing to strike down those merely who lied about the amount of money they were donating in “olden times”, why won’t he strike down the “chaff” and “wolves in sheeps’ clothing” like Haggard, Warnke, and the New Apostolic Reformation/Prosperity Gospel heretics who run the church now in just the same way?

      Maybe it’s because those stories, along with the rest of the “miracles” in the Bible (including Joshua’s genocide against the Canaanites mentioned above– but not, unfortunately the stories of slavery) were just “made up” and are believed by people like you who then go around spewing hatred, judgement, and threats in the name of Christ.

      I hope YOU find Christ. It would be a great archaeological discovery.

    • Sunny Day

      “Have you ever opened a Bible?”

      Have you?
      Thanks for confirming that you are one of those fundie bible-bots Terry.
      Looks like Relles Natas has the lid nailed down on your barrel of crapola.

  • Terry

    To Roger,
    glad to hear you believe in rational and critical thinking. If so, I challenge you to read three books from a former athiest named Lee Strobel. “The Case for Christ”, “The Case For Faith”, and “The Case for Creation” . One other thing to consider: Athiesm is a moral choice, not an intellectual choice. To say “there is no God” is only saying that you choose to belive this notion about God. Without God, there couid not be a notion of His non-existence. Also, you choose to incorrectly describe God as our “imaginary sky friend”. The Christian God-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rpersonally resides in our hearts, not somewhere in the sky. The Bible states that, “unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God” This means that your natural eyes can never see or comprehend God until you accept Jesus as savior. He then gives you spiritual eyes that can see and comprehend His Word. One last thing: what do you say to the person at their deathbed? Do not fear, you have rational and critical thinking? Not much comfort in that, is there.

    • Sunny Day

      “The Christian God-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rpersonally resides in our hearts, not somewhere in the sky.”

      Looks like John C has one of those inward dwellling god believers. Hopefully they won’t start breeding.

    • yahweh

      “Athiesm is a moral choice, not an intellectual choice”

      I know this may be shocking, but you are wrong. It was my intellect that helped me realize there is no magical sky-daddy. That is a defense mechanism that xians use to differentiate themselves from us heathens.

    • poetrini

      The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

  • Terry

    To Elemenope’
    You are confusing unwelcome pity for concern. If your theology is centered around your statement, “Know a tree by its fruit”, then you can relax. That statement is not in the Bible. Saying Christianity is capable of providing both good and rotten fruit is strikingly similar to what Jesus’s enemies said about His healing people. They said He was healing people by the power of Satan, not God. Jesus replied, A house divided against itself cannot stand. If Satan casts out Satan, then his kingdom is divided. Christianity has survived because it is the power of God unto salvation. Voltaire said, “God is dead !” Now Voltaire is dead, and God is as much alive as ever. Lenin said, “religion is the opiate of the masses.” Lenin is dead, as is the USSR. You also state that Christianity was created by humans. Actually, humans were created by the Christ we worship.

    • Elemenope

      If your theology is centered around your statement, “Know a tree by its fruit”, then you can relax. That statement is not in the Bible.

      Er…Matthew 12:33, Luke 6:43-44.

      • Sunny Day

        Hilarious, and I’m supposed to be chided for not reading the bible. HA HA HA.

    • Relles Natas

      No– Marx said religion is “the opium of the people”, not Lenin. And yes, Marx might indeed also be dead, but at least I can prove he actually existed– there are diaries, photographs, University records, newspaper articles, books, letters, etc, for instance. You can’t say the same thing about god. And don’t tell me your deranged “testimony” proves that your “abstract being squatting outside the world” (see below) exists– the only thing the heart contains is muscle and blood. I think the suicide bomber’s belief in Allah’s life-changing power and 72 virgins in paradise makes as much sense as any of that.

      But go on trusting your 1,700 year old “canon”, the content of which was decided upon by the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea fully three hundred years after Christ lived. And don’t worry about the fact that the oldest existing FRAGMENTS of the New Testament date to a full hundred years after Christ, either. God wouldn’t let the scriptures be corrupted, though he apparently didn’t have a problem letting his church sink into horrible error and heresy for almost 2,000 years (if you’re a Protestant), or that this God who is supposed to be the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow changes important doctrines all the time (if you’re a Catholic).

      In any case, you clearly don’t know your modern material philosophers any better than you don’t know your Bible. But your excuse will be that the wisdom of man is foolishness to god, so you can misquote it to your heart’s content, because who cares about accuracy when you’ve got Jesus in your heart, right?

      Actually, I think old Marx (not Lenin) had you and your religion pretty well-pegged when he wrote:

      “Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.” Marx, K. 1976. Introduction to A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right. Collected Works, v. 3. New York

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    I am not commanded to defend the Bible. The Holy Spirit is more than qualified. You choose to deny Christ, I choose to accept Him. When I was a non-believer, my father once told me, you don’t believe the Bible as the Word of God, even though your name is in it. I asked, “If my name is in the Bible, then I will believe.” He quoted me Psalms 14:1, “The Fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’.”

    • klidov

      “….I am not commanded to defend the Bible…”, then what exactly do you think that you are doing Terry? Relles has demonstarted the art of a very good debate/discussion. Even if a person did not agree with the information that he provides, there is no question that he has done his homework very well. Quoting the bible in an attempt to validate (a questioning of the) same said book is truly an exercise in futility.

      Your mistakes were fairly simple:

      1) Assuming there was an attack on Christianty, Christians, and/or God. This article is about a Man who abused the name of God for personal wealth. And he got caught. Bigtime. You would do better to denounce him for the fraud he is.

      2) Assuming that those who do not agree with your tiny & narrow understanding of the Bible, God, Jesus…etc…do not know scripture. Or the Bible. Or the history of the bible. Again, a serious mistake. I am arrogant enough to believe that I have forgotten more of the bible, than you have ever learned to date. (Reading Jack Chick comics does not count as bible study Terry.)

      My advice to you now Terry…? Leave now. Quietly. (Really). While you have some dignity left.

  • Terry

    1 Corinthians, 1:18, “For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God unto salvation.”

    • Kodie

      And so the bible sayeth: “All the cool kids are doing it!”
      And so the parent sayeth: “And so if they were all jumping off the bridge, so wouldst thou?”
      And so the bible sayeth: “I knew you wouldn’t understand, DAD! I HATE YOU! You don’t know what it’s like to be a Christian!!!!”

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    funny you claim the Christians of being Communist. The Christians in Acts gave their possessions voluntarily. Your communists forcibly take from people. The Christians in Acts gave everything they had to grow the new church Christ had just established. Your communists forcibly steal from their people in an effort to wioe out Christianity. You may want to rethink that statement.

    • Relles Natas

      Why should the church behave any differently today? Does god change? Do the scriptures change? See, you just make excuses for your disobedience. You do not carry a cross. You are not persecuted joyfully for your faith– storing up treasure in heaven. Do you turn the other cheek, or do you support legislation to make the US a Christian nation, to teach creationism in the schools, to stone homosexuals, to shoot abortion doctors? When did Christians protest the bloody circuses at the Roman colliseum? The only time Christ became violent was when he overturned the money-changers who had made his father’s house a house of iniquity. Your televangelists, Prosperity Gospel heretics, and New Apostolic Reformation false prophets have made his father’s house a house of iniquity. Where is your protest?

      Do you walk the extra mile in your life? Do you remove the log from your own eye before you try to pluck the speck from the eye of another? Or do you believe the behavior of the church is no longer required to be that of the Biblical church in Acts because you love your money too much to give it away, like the rich young man who wanted to follow Christ:

      “A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good — except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’” “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Luke 18:18-23

      That was not at the beginning of the church, was it? Perhaps you should stop preaching, hang your head, and walk away. You reject the commands of Christ. You are anti-Christ.

      Or was Paul’s warning that “… the love of money is the root of all evil!” given at the beginning of the church? No. These commands are eternal– the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow– if god is as you say he is. But you will protest that you do not “love” your money, won’t you? It is OK for a Christian to be rich today– the church is fine! It is established! Acts is history! Maybe it’s OK to be gay and have abortions then, too? After all, the poor have no needs today. The sick require no care today. Besides, you dropped some coin in the collection plate last Sunday, right? Can you imagine, when Jesus was healing the blind, sick, and lame, and feeding the poor in the filthy streets of Jerusalem that the hills surrounding the city could have been filled with mansions and chariots with bumper stickers and signs on them saying “This (fill in the blank) belongs to Jesus!”?

      Yes, I know. You will say that to love money, you would have to be willing to do anything for money, that you would have to make money the focus of your life, that it would have to be what you think of when you wake up in the morning and the last thing you think of when you go to sleep. Is this not true?

      “And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ “The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:28-31

      So, do you prove that you love your neighbor by jumping over the same high bar with which you prove you do not love money? Do you make your neighbor the focus of your life, as the dirty, filthy, ostracized– but Jesus called him good– Samaritan did on that dark road going up to Jerusalem, stopping to help his neighbor, really a bloody stranger he did not even know, lying beaten by thieves in the road when the righteous priest and levite had already passed by with their excuses? He bound the man’s wounds, took him to an inn, gave the innkeeper money, and told him that when he passed through again he would pay whatever else was owed. “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[ but have not love, I gain nothing. I Corinthians 13

      Is loving your neighbor the first thing you think about when you wake up, and the last thing you think about when you go to sleep? Do you bind his wounds, pay his hospital bills (socialism!), feed him, clother him– or are you just a “clanging cymbal”? And do you know that the homosexual, the abortion doctor, the communist, atheist, prostitute, thief, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, alcoholic and drug addict are your neighbors? How can you possibly keep anything for yourself when you have so many neighbors to feed, clothe, and wash the feet of? You have been commanded to lay down your life. Why, then, are you still alive?

      Or do you have more than one standard for living the love which Chriat commanded you to live?

      • poetrini

        Wow! That was intense and exactly what I would have said had I the eloquence. This is truly the standard Jesus meant for us to live by, yes. But, alas, we are all human and all fall short…no matter how hard we try or how well-meaning we are. Wish I could recreate that sermon at youth group on Wednesday night. Bravo!

      • Cucumber

        Your posts are epic. I can *feel* your passionate frustration. Every Christian should be responding to these questions, except they can’t.

  • Terry

    to Sunnyday,
    if you are offended by goodness, mercy, and love being in the Christian heart, what is in yours?

    • Sunny Day

      Wrong again dumbo. I’m offended by people who worship mythical creatures while those poor deluded fools proclaim they are the holders of some sort of truth only they can see.

    • ChaplainJudi

      Hi, Terry. Nice to meet you on the blog. Did you and your wife know that some of the readers think we are married? HAHAHAHAHA! My husband found it amusing to.

      I considered responding to the posting above yours, but I get the feeling that because they had made up their minds on their opinions they did not want to be confused with the facts.

      But I edo turn the other cheek, walk the extra ten miles needed, speak out aganst violence in the name of Jesus, stand up for those who are falsely accused even if it is is situation the churches may find distasteful, love people many churches amnd christians would reject, speak kindly to those who persecute in the name of “anti-Jesus”…

      Well, it wouldnt really matter, because I am “deluded” by my fauith… and proud of it.

  • Terry

    to CGoldie,
    nice response. We must continue to witness to haters of Christ with the Word of God. We may be the only people they will ever hear concerning the need for salvation. Remember, two things always happen when people are told about the gospel of Christ: they accept and give their lives to Jesus, or they openly attack us while in their denials. When they attack us, they are really attacking Christ. We know that the seeds we sew do not always grow overnight. We can only pray that these seeds we sow will eventually lead them to the saving knowledge of Jesus. Their nasty responses are a good thing. They are starting to think. I used to do the same thing.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    Thank you for the correction. It is the first thing you have said tonight that is true. In all honesty, it has been a long time since I have read any of Marx and Lenin’s crap. I try not to spend too much time reading anti-Christian material. You learn to spot a counterfeit dollar studying the real one, not the fake. You do seem to have a lot of knowledge. So did the Apostle Paul. He attacked Christians as fervently as you do. Maybe someday you will have the same personal encounter with Christ that Paul did. A man with the deep convictions that you possess could do a lot for Jesus. Our dialogue cannot be by chance. I don’t believe in chance when it comes to talking to someone about Christ. We are tripartheid beings…body, soul, and spirit. I hope you find the spirit, only God can give that one to you. You certainly have the body and soul part down…I’m on your side.

    • Jabster

      “In all honesty, it has been a long time since I have read any of Marx and Lenin’s crap.”

      A long time as in never at all?

      • Custador

        Beat me to it. The fact that he can’t differentiate between Marxism and Communism is, as always, a dead giveaway that he’s spouting fountains of fragrant bullshit.

        • Jabster

          A Christian lying … who would have thought it?

    • Francesc

      “Our dialogue cannot be by chance. I don’t believe in chance when it comes to talking to someone about Christ”
      Yeah, it must be destiny!!
      Do you aknowledge the absurdity of such an assertion?

  • Terry

    One last thing, there is much more historical evidence that Jesus was alive on planet earth than Ol’ Karl. Read Lee Strobels books, “The Case For Christ, and “The Case For The Real Jesus”. Strobel was a confirmed athiest before his research on Jesus. Try books from Richard Wurmbrand. His books made Jesus come alive in my spiritual heart…not the one with muscle, arteries, and veins.

    • Jabster

      He was a confirmed atheist you say – well the Christian god must exist then! Oh hang on aren’t there confirmed Christians who became atheists meaning god doesn’t exist or what about confirmed Christians who became Muslim, does that mean Allah exists?

      • Custador

        Don’t be silly! That’s like saying that TrueChristians ™ can do evil things! Obviously the two are mutually exclusive and it only works one way! Sill Jabster!

    • yahweh

      “One last thing…”
      We can all only hope it is your last thing.

    • Sunny Day

      Argument from authority fail.

    • Question-I-Thority

      Terry: I’ve sat here reading through the comments trying to think of a way to respond that might help you understand atheists. I don’t think you’ve had much dialogue with such. Calling us “Christ haters” isn’t a good start. Perhaps you might want to step out of witness mode and actually listen a bit more. You could start by reflecting on Yahweh’s apparent immorality exhibited throughout the Old Testament as pointed out by Relles Natas.

    • poetrini

      I believe Josh McDowell was another who became a Christian while trying to disprove Christianity…read More Than A Carpenter.

      • JohnMWhite

        See what Jabster said above. Plenty of people have changed their minds in either direction, and do so on all sorts of subjects.

  • Terry

    Elemenope,
    you said, “know a tree by its fruit .” This is not in its proper context you were using when you said Christians produce both good and bad fruit. That context is not in the Bible. What the Bible really says is,”either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; FOR A TREE IS KNOWN BY ITS FRUIT.” As usual, you Christ haters pervert scripture to try and make a non-scriptural point. Therefore my statement was correct by infoeming you that “know a tree by its fruit is not in the Bible. But you knew that.

    • yahweh

      “As usual, you Christ haters pervert scripture”

      Hard to hate someone that did not exist as described in the bible. It’s like syaing I hate unicorns because they don’t exist. No, I just say they don’t exist. I don’t hate them.

    • Jabster

      … er no Terry, you were caught out by Elem and you’re now back tracking to try and claim that you are right. Isn’t lying considered a sin or is it ok if it’s lying for Jebus?

    • Elemenope

      This is not in its proper context you were using when you said Christians produce both good and bad fruit. That context is not in the Bible. What the Bible really says is,”either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; FOR A TREE IS KNOWN BY ITS FRUIT.”

      Pretty much every ancient school of ethical pedagogy belonged to what today we call Virtue Ethics; teaching about character and excellence by focusing on the individual, training the moral actor to make better choices through practice and providing tools or rules of thumb to help in situational determinations.

      Jesus was no exception to this, and the Bible makes clear this was his style (and with good reason; neither the Jews nor the Hellenic Romans would have understood a different approach). In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus is teaching his students a rule of thumb: good things tend to have good consequences, bad things tend to produce bad effects. In the particular case, the subject is prophets, and how to tell the ones sent by God from false ones.

      It would have struck his audience as outright bizarre your notion that Jesus intends this rule of thumb be used only when considering prophets. It is, rather, an ethical tool to be used by mature moral agents in a wide variety of circumstances *including* the one Jesus illustrated in the passage. What is remarkable and notable in this particular instance is only that Jesus is taking the radical step of introducing an empirical consequentialist rubric to be applied by people making determinations in a religious context.

      Your obsession with literal restriction of context reminds me just a little of people who read Animal Farm and then complain about the fact that animals shouldn’t talk. Context isn’t merely what sentences surround the passage at issue, but also an awareness of what audience the original was addressed toward and particularly in what way that audience would have understood what was being said.

      • poetrini

        I thought the “tree by it’s fruit” thing was referring to how to tell if someone truly has a relationship with Christ…. If they say they are a “Christian” but do not display the fruits of the Spirit – love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, self-control, kindness, goodness, faithfulness – then they probably are deceiving people or being deceived themselves and need to reexamine their heart.

        • klidov

          love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, self-control, kindness, goodness, faithfulness are not traits exclusive to Christians.

          (However, tolerance, compassion, and acceptance may be exclusive to non-judgemental, non-religious extremists).

          just sayin’

  • Terry

    Jabster
    believe what you want. The only defense you have shown so far is attacking a Christians credibility so your false beliefs may seem credible to yourself. I quote God’s Word for the basis of trying to show you non-believers there is a God who wants you to have eternal life with Him. You only give opinions without any source of fact. You say I have never read anything on Marx or Lenin. I invite you to read “Marx and Satan” by Richard Wurmbrand. You would discover that Marx began his life in a God-fearinf family. It is documented that he was once a Christian.His first written work is called “The Union of the Faithful with Christ. In this he states, “Through love of Christ we turn our hearts at the same time toward our brethren who are inwardly bound to us and for whom He gave Himself in sacrifice.” Later, after he renounced his faith, he complained of being out of food, and not having any trousers to put on so he could get food if he had the money. Obviously, Marx and his followers’ lives had deteriorated to the point of a faith needing trousers.

    • Kodie

      Marx and his followers’ lives had deteriorated to the point of a faith needing trousers.

      That is the weirdest sentence I’ve read in a long time, to say nothing of the logical leaps you’ve taken.

      • Jabster

        Way to go Terry is the qoute in the Bible or not?

    • Paul

      I don’t see what Marx’s change of opinion has to do with your argument… Plenty of people, theists of all types and atheists alike, are all perfectly capable of changing their opinion about the universe without it establishing an truth. Furthermore, you do not tell us anything regarding how that change affected him. I could decide to stop eating junk food and get sick a month later. Therefore, by your logic, this scenario would imply that junk food is obviously necessary to maintaining a healthy body. It seems far more likely that the two are unrelated, or that he was shunned by his christian community for renouncing his beliefs and couldn’t find work.

    • poetrini

      Saying someone was “once a Christian” makes no sense unless you are strickly talking about their religion/group affiliation. If you mean all the groups, religions and affiliations classified as Christian, then, okay. But to say someone was once a born-again, child of God and now are no longer that…just doesn’t make any sense to me! If you will renounce God then you just were never actually a Christian (Christ-follower) to begin with!

      • Custador

        Oh, do fuck off. Changing one’s opinion does not magically send bad-vibes back in time and alter the past. There are many, many people on this site who were as devout as you are and more so who are now atheists. Your inability to accept that is peurile, childish, offensive bullshit – and I should know, I’m expert in all of those things.

        • Jabster

          “… is peurile, childish, offensive bullshit – and I should know, I’m expert in all of those things.”

          Can’t say I’ve noticed ;-)

          • Custador

            Well, when compared to a master of the arts one will always fall short ;-)

            • Jabster

              I’ve always thought that they were very under rated attributes!

        • John C

          Its a contradiction to deny now that you ever knew someone that you once claimed that you knew but now say that you don’t, get it? If you (ever) knew, you know but since you dont, you don’t.

          But you can.

          • Elemenope

            You hear a sound of a knock at the door. You say to the person next to you “there is a person at our door!”, but when you go to answer it, it turns out that there is nobody there. Your ears deceived you.

            If you were asked before you got to the door if you knew there was a person at the door, you would probably say ‘yes’. After you got to the door and realized there was nobody there, if you were asked if you know now there never was a person at the door, you would probably also say ‘yes’. There is no contradiction.

            • John C

              There is only belief or unbelief, no contradiction.

            • Custador

              How many children have you met with imaginary friends who they were convinced were real? I’ve met dozens. I know a few who’ve grown into adults – and none of them still has their imaginary friend.

              The subtext here, in case you weren’t getting it: Grow up, John.

            • John C

              Grow down Custy! :)

            • Jabster

              @Custador

              John C imagines that you’re his friend … does that count?

            • John C

              I think very highly of everyone here, of each of you. Love always thinks the best, the highest. And while I care very much for all you guys, I am under no illusion that that same concern is returned toward me, still that changes nothing.

            • JohnMWhite

              “Grow down Custy!”

              With a dry-cool wit like that, he could be an action hero…

              JohnC, you’re not making any effort here at all. Your god probably wouldn’t be pleased if you didn’t at least try to counteract the points raised.

            • Jabster

              @John C

              “I think very highly of everyone here, …”

              If this is how you treat people who you think highly of (by ignoring what they are saying and just saying what you want to say) then how do you treat people who you don’t think highly of?

      • Jabster

        “But to say someone was once a born-again, child of God and now are no longer that…just doesn’t make any sense to me!”

        So if it doesn’t make sense to you, then it doesn’t count then. All of the ex-Christians on this site weren’t True Christians ™ even though they thought they were because you say so?

        • poetrini

          No. Not at all. I guess I just don’t understand what people mean when they say “Christian”. I suppose if you can choose to become a believer, you can also choose to no longer believe. Yes? I am so confused.

          • Elemenope

            I suppose if you can choose to become a believer, you can also choose to no longer believe. Yes?

            Yes.

          • Jabster

            “No. Not at all.” … really?

            “If you will renounce God then you just were never actually a Christian (Christ-follower) to begin with!”

            So what exactly did you mean by the above if you weren’t claiming that they weren’t True Christians ™ in the first place and as a secondary question why do you think that your version of what it means to be a True Christian ™ holds any more weight than what other people believe?

    • Custador

      Hey Terry, do you believe everything you see written down? I’m betting no. So why do you believe the fairy tales of a bunch of desert nomads from thousands of years ago?

  • Terry

    yahweh,
    interesting name for a non-believer. Your intellect showed you there is no sky daddy? Try 1 Cor. 1 :18, “For it is written, ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent, I will frustrate.” Romans 1: 21, “because although they knew Goid, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools. This nis what happened to Marx and others that were once Christians and later choose to deny Him. I will tell you the same thing as I told Roger: what do you say to comfort the dying on their deathbed, “Fear not, because I have intelligence?”

    • Daniel Florien

      I hope you’re not suggesting yahweh was god’s actual name. We all know around here it was yahoowahoo. If you don’t believe that, then repent from ye darkened heart of darkness!!!

    • yahweh

      “what do you say to comfort the dying on their deathbed, “Fear not, because I have intelligence?”

      Since you asked, when I was comforting my mother as she was dying, I held her hand and told her that everyone she loved was with her. I told her that I loved her and told her it was okay for her to let go. She quietly stopped breathing and slipped away.
      That is one of my most cherished memories in my life.

      By the way, the name….it’s called sarcasm.

  • Terry

    Paul,
    this is the same logic most non-believers use: personal opinion without fact to back up anything you say. Then, when you are confronted by fact, you are offended. Lenin couldn’t find work because the Christion community shunned him for renouncing his beliefs? A great piece of fiction based on no historical fact. Still, that is preferable for non-believers to believe, and to ignore all the historical evidence that Jesus was in fact a historical figure who met all the prophetical requirements necessary to prove He in fact was God Incarnate who in fact rose from the dead.

    • Relles Natas

      There you go again mixing up Marx and Lenin into one person.

      Look, I got 4.0 grades on over 60 hours of history. I developed health problems and couldn’t finish my thesis or I’d have a PhD. Excluding all the other courses in history and philosophy I took which covered Marx, I also aced two classes along the way called “Marx: Theory and Praxis” and “The Philosophy of Marxism”. I can tell you right now you don’t know a thing about Marx OR Lenin even though you keep mixing them together. You shouldn’t even have mentioned them but you were trying to show off by throwing out a line to make yourself look smart, but I’m sure not impressed.

      Everything you’ve said about Lenin (er, Marx) is a lie. I could throw out a small paper here showing how you know nothing about how Jews had to act in Germany at the time of Marx– how you couldn’t get a decent job if you weren’t a Lutheran. How many of them “assimilated”, and gave up their Jewishness in hopes of being accepted by the Christians (Protestant and Catholic alike) Maybe you’ve heard that as late as 100 years later, even such assimilated Jews were rounded up in that same region– in fact from all over Europe, parts of Asia, and North Africa and sent to concentration camps and gas chambers as sub-humans by the Nazis. But why should I assume you know anything about the 20th century Holocaust committed against the Jews when you don’t even know about the second millennium BC holocaust committed by the Jews against the men, women, and children of Canaan when it’s in your “holy” book?

      So Marx’s father (the family was descended from a long line of very wise and well known rabbis stretching back hundreds of years in the region) converted to Lutheranism so he could get a job and “get ahead”. It worked. He became a minor bureaucrat in the government. He hoped his son Karl would use the money he got to go to University to study law– but he was more interested in philosophy, especially the German giant Georg Hegel. Marx was never a Christian. He experienced far more persecution from the government and mobs than you’ve ever experienced for being a Christian, and Jesus promised his followers they would be persecuted. And yes, he was poor, as Jews and many Christians have been poor when they were persecuted by Caesars, Emperors, Popes, and the whole spectrum of fanatical witch-hunters in general (you know, kind of like Mike Warnke here).

      Secret police harrassed Marx constantly. Publishers of newspapers and books were blackballed if they printed his words. His wife Jenny came from a minor Prussion noble family and had a little money but it didn’t last long. His good friend Friedrich Engels worked for his father who was a wealthy industrialist in Manchester (I believe, but it’s been awhile— all this is off the top of my head) and he was able to help Marx from time to time as well as collaborate with him in his writing. Eventually Marx ended up in London where he wrote most of his major works after ‘The Communist Manifesto’. He had several children, some of whom died. Read ‘A Christmas Carol’ by Charles Dickens to get an idea of what life was like for the average person in London at that time. TB was rampant. So were Cholera and Typhus. “Have we no workhouses? Have we no prisons?” Were the likes of Tiny Tim cursed by your god, too?

      So listen, Terry. Why don’t you just quit while you’re ahead? Multiple people here have proven that you’re a know-nothing, and that’s putting it mildly. I proved to that your god commanded men, women, and children to be killed and sanctioned slavery. You said I lied. Read your Bible. Stick with it, and maybe someday you might master it, but I’d stay away from history and philosophy and anything else that doesn’t count faith as a 100% 4.0 GPA if I were you.

      • Sunny Day

        Don’t go confusing Terry with facts. He knows what he knows and that’s all there is to it.

  • Terry

    Daniel, we all know around here that God’s real name is yahoowahoo? Another opinion from a non-believer not based on fact. Obviously you do not fear the Lord or the coming judgement. Not yet.
    Philipians 2:10 says, “at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    The key here is EVERY. That means those who believe, and those who did not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord while on earth. Those that believed while alive confess that He is Lord, entering eternal life with Him. Those that did not believe confess that He is Lord, and enter into eternal damnation.
    Revelation 15-17 says, “Then the kings of the earth, the princess, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and amoung the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks,”Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!” yahweh thinks he is cool blaspheming God’s name in vain. Maybe both you and he can hide under the same rock.

    • Elemenope

      It’s not blasphemy, it’s vowel replacement. Surely you know that Ancient Hebrew was written with no vowels and no diacritics. The diacritics weer added later as a *best guess* for the vowel sounds, but the true pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton which stands in place of the Name of God has been lost. It is only slightly less likely, all things considered, that it is “Yahoowahoo” than it is “Yahweh”.

      But being the Biblical scholar you are, surely you knew that already.

      • yahweh

        My spellcheck does not accept yahoowahoo, hence yahweh.

    • Kodie

      The key here is EVERY.

      Do you think that we should feel threatened because the book of Terry says so?

      • klidov

        ummm…no :)

    • yahweh

      Daniel, it would be an honor to hide under the same rock with you. I’ll bring the vodka.

    • Yoav

      ”Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!”
      You know lambs are small fluffy and yummy, not the most terrifying of animals.
      How about we all meet under a rock and BBQ us some lamb over the fires of hell as the world ends.

  • Terry

    Relles, I am impressed with your self-proclaimed genius. You are the only person that ever had a 4.0 in 60 hrs. of history. I won’t tell my wife. She only has a double masters degree, and taught history before becoming an administrator. You claim multiple people have proved me wrong. The only errors have been by accidentally typing in Lenin for Marx-my bad, but everyone knows exactly what I was saying. My comments, other than Lenin/Marx have mostly come from scripture. I tried to keep opinions based on fact as responses. Here are most of the responses that you say defeated my responses: Jabster-assumes I have never read Lenin. He says I am lying. He has no facts to back his opinion. SunnyDay-offended by people who worship mythical creations, calling us (Christians) fools. She also stated she was glad to know I am a fundie, bible bots…great facts, huh? Daniel and the so-called yahweh responded by blaspheming God…another great retort.yahweh’s elevated intelligence showed him there is no god…he didn’t need facts, his intelligence is far greater than facts. Daniel did not reveal his secret in claiming there is no god. Klidov, said I didn’t know the Bible..his personal opinion without factst to support his opinion. Enelope gave me a personal lesson on Bible interpretation. These folks could do do a Budweiser commercial:”Real Men of Genius-God Haters who debate using contrived insults as facts.” And now I will finish my response to you. You state that you was a true believer until you read Deut. 3:3-6, etc. Here is my response to you based on Biblical fact: You have elevated your self-proclaimed intelligence above God’s. Job 38: Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Verse 4-7:Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you understand.Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? Read through Chapter 41 for more. Next, your omniscient compassion gives you the right to hate God for his commandment to joshua, without even pretending to care as to why God gave the commandment. Scholars agree that the Canaanites were so deep into false gods and immorality that God felt it necessary to eliminate everyone including animals so they could not corrupt His people. Even so, I personally don’t have the problem of judging God’s actions. He is God, I am not. Next, you feel that scripture must be corrupt since Constatine and the council at Nicea was held 300 years after the life of Christ? The texts that were not admitted into sacred text was based on the fact they were not written within the first century or they contained opinion without verification. They did not change the texts, but verified them. Something you and your deluded friends here need to learn. The New Testament material on Jesus’s resurrection was written between two and seventy years after the event and corroborated between 27 and 70 years later. The Qur’an is fifth hand testimony. Since Muhammad was illiterate, he passed it along to others. The Qur’anic revelations were not collected into a single volume until fourteen to twenty years after Muhammads death, and corroborated at least 200 years later. Historically speaking, the New Testament accounts of Jesus have a much higher quality to them than the Qur’an has concerning the message it provides.Yet no one here questions whether Mohammed actually existed, or the validity of the Qur’an. You seem to think I do not give money to the church without knowing my years of service and commitment-monetarily or position wise. You are anti-God, but call me anti-christ. You confuse works with faith,as if works are more important. Good luck to you and all your anti-god friends. I leave with these final words from scripture, Matt.7:6, Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do,they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.Matt. 10:14, If anyone will not listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. Until eternity, and the true judgment..

    • Nzo

      I won’t tell my wife. She only has a double masters degree, and taught history before becoming an administrator.

      Unsubstantiated claim.

      My comments, other than Lenin/Marx have mostly come from scripture.

      Denotes lack of intelligence when on an atheist forum.

      Jabster-assumes I have never read Lenin. He says I am lying. He has no facts to back his opinion.

      And you have none to support your claim that you are not lying.

      SunnyDay-offended by people who worship mythical creations, calling us (Christians) fools.

      Your mythical creation caused fools to be put into positions of power resulting in the commonly-known “dark ages”. Do you disagree, fool?

    • Relles Natas

      And so, right on cue– Terry shakes the dust of this evil thread off of his feet, and having consigned us all to the rocky refuge of fear and/or the fires of hell, moves on– albeit with one last flurry of threats and proclaiming hope that we will all, somehow, someday find the truth.

      I will, however, openly acknowledge that it gives me no pleasure to engage a true believer such as Terry thusly. I see so much of my former self in him. For one thing, I don’t think I was ever as lonely in my entire life as I was during those nearly five years I spent (wasted) as a born-again Christian– though I truly believed the entire time that the Creator of the Universe lived in my heart, just as Terry does now. I think a lot of Christian proselytizing is born of that same loneliness.

      And when I was ultimately forced to begin acknowledging that I could no longer easily explain away the growing body of Biblical contradictions, outright errors, and shocking teachings (and those verses describing the blood-letting “god” unleashed upon the Canaanites are only the tip of the iceberg) which were accumulating in my mind as a result of my diligent study of “The Word”– finally making the decision to leave the faith was one of the most emotionally painful things I ever had to go through. I truly would not wish it upon anyone else. I do not relish overturning anyone’s faith. I just want to force them to own it– to really be aware of what belief in the Bible, or the Koran, or the Book of Mormon entails– and to make others who might be listening aware of what “owning it” entails also. I wish someone like me had been there for me in 1977. But it’s been almost thirty years since I “corrected” my mistake now, half a lifetime, but still some scars remain on my “heart” from the pain I went through. And yet inevitably the first words out of the mouth of a person like Terry are always that “you just don’t know the Word of God” or “you have rejected the truth out of willful wickedness”. Bah. I saw too many games from inside that stadium. I was in that game myself too long– and I spoke the exact same words thousands of times to others. I will never walk so blindly again.

      I really don’t dislike or hate people like Terry. I actually pity them. In fact, I might even say that I forgive them, for they know not what they do. I myself paid a huge cost personally “for Christ”. First, I lost all my childhood friends right out of high school because I preached those friendships “to death”. Then I missed many opportunities for friendships with all the good people I met during my Christian days because I was only concerned about getting them “saved”. I sold all my possessions, spent a fortune on tracts and other aspects of “ministry”, was pushed around and beaten up a few times while preaching on street corners and trying to witness, almost got knifed in a bus station restroom in Harrisburg, PA for trying to share my testimony with a gang-banger who tried to sell me drugs, and then to top it all off I lost all my Christian friends when I finally left the church. Shazam. I wonder what his “words” in the service of Christ have cost Terry?

      No, I can honestly say that I take no joy in battling this kind of “true believer”. It’s too bad, for one thing, that they are unwilling or unable to just let their lives speak the truth of the gospel FOR them, so that they would not have to talk it instead of walk it. You would think that with all the joy, happiness, contentedness, and over-coming power that they exude which emanates directly from the Creator dwelling in their hearts that it would be an easy thing to bring unbelievers into the fold without the need for so much preaching, judging, and condemnation of the unwilling to hell fire before turning tail and running.

      But that doesn’t bother me either. What bothers me is that of late they have taken to calling for making the United States into a “Christian Nation”, whatever that means. There is no precedent in either the New Testament or the Constitution for such a thing. I can understand a “Nation of Christians”– perhaps– but not the other. And this is the primary reason why I now battle against Christian fanatics like Terry– not to overturn their faith but to oppose what I inevitably find to be their “Christian politics”, otherwise known as “Dominionism”. I NEVER believed a “Christian State” was possible when I was a believer. In fact, I would have called it heresy. But these dupes today have clearly forgotten (or more likely never knew) about such minor incidents as the Salem Witch Trials, which were walks in the park compared to the bloody CENTURIES of HOLY WAR which preceded them between the Protestants and the Catholics, or between the Catholics and the Orthodox, or the 2,000 year persecution of the Jews by Christendom, or the wars with Islam (oh wait, that one’s still on) in which millions of people died, had their homes destroyed, and their lands laid waste in the name of god, using Joshua’s example in Canaan, because as Terry finally admits– dirty, filthy, immoral, unbelievers can be killed down to the last child, just as 138 years ago before an attack on a Shoshone village a California militia Colonel named Patrick Edward Connor gave his infantry and cavalry of over two hundred orders to “take no prisoners and remember nits grow into lice”.

      For these reasons our founding fathers placed the separation between church and state firmly into the Constitution via the First Amendment. Some of them, and certainly their fathers and grandfathers remembered Salem. But if these latter day Christian Nationalists win, that amendment will mean nothing to them, and they will hurl us OVERNIGHT back into those bloody days of Medieval insanity which preceded the Enlightenment and the rise of modern, liberal democracies where all citizens are theoretically equal under the law regardless of religion, race, or creed. Under the rule of the Christian Nationalist, unbelievers and heretics would once again be subject to torture and execution by humans (albeit GOD’S humans), here on earth, as they were during the Inquisition instead of just being preached to and harassed with words, allowed to be blissfully ignorant of that terrible day when we all will be punished by god in hell– which really should be sufficient to make even the most sin-frustrated religious fanatic like Terry happy, right?

      And I don’t hate Christ either. The Christ that I have been able to extract from the New Testament, from archaeology, from history, and from my study of comparative religion (see especially ‘Excavating Jesus’ by Crossan and Reed as an excellent history of first century Palestine and the contextual environment in which Christianity arose) is actually a very attractive figure to me. You might even say I follow him as best I can, except I don’t believe in any supernatural mumbo jumbo. I find his teachings– against the immoral and filthy rich, religious hypocrites, and selfish behavior in general, as well as his teachings about how to truly love, practice charity, cooperate, give of oneself, forgive, and be lenient towards non-rich/religious “sinners” (like thieves, prostitutes, tax collectors, and Samaritans) and doing all things only after asking ourselves whether we would have such things done to ourselves– to be the brilliant ideas of a great, moral revolutionary, who was killed because of the threat he posed to the powers that be.

      Had he wanted a “Christian” nation– and if he was who Christians believe he was, he could have rubbed out Caesar, all his armies, along with the scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees with his little finger– he would have had it. But instead he told his followers they were to be in the world but not of it. He spoke of rendering things unto Caesar and things unto God– separating church and state HIMSELF. He promised a CROSS to everyone who followed him (that means death, Terry). He promised POVERTY and PERSECUTION to everyone who followed him too. He commanded his followers to leave this world while they were still in it and join his kingdom, willing to die in the service of that kingdom, to be as salt in the earth which even in tiny amounts will preserve a thing and keep it from rot. He taught his followers to fight Rome not with a worldly government, or knives, or swords but by turning the other cheek, walking the extra mile, laying down your life if need be, and by so doing heap burning coals on the heads of those who would persecute such a beautiful philosophy, and bring them into the “kingdom” by deed more than by word– so that even as individual sparks were lost to the darkness of death, nevertheless the “flame” he started would burn on forever.

      Unfortunately, it appears that the human race is unable to resist the urge to turn even such beautiful teachings as these– centered as they are on the rule that you are to set about removing the log jam in your own eye before even thinking about trying to get that splinter out of your brother’s eye– into just another set of hypocritical religious rules chiseled in stone whereby some are to be included in the “in-group” while the rest are to be excluded under sentence of eternal damnation in hell’s fire and brimstone, weeping and gnashing their teeth.

      • BillZBub

        that was beautiful, man.

    • Nzo

      Daniel and the so-called yahweh responded by blaspheming God

      Again, you’re on an atheist forum. Blasphemy here is not finishing a delicious plate of His holy noodles and meatballs. Blasphemy is pretending to be intelligent while holding bronze-age, mythical beliefs to a higher standard than facts. Blasphemy is talking on a cell phone and pretending scientists are the bad guys with an anti-religious agenda. Need I go on?

      Klidov, said I didn’t know the Bible..his personal opinion without factst to support his opinion.

      Truth. You don’t know it well enough to know that it’s a work of fiction. It really doesn’t matter how much scripture you can spout at any given time. The book is a medley of rape, theft, murder, and genocide.

      Enelope gave me a personal lesson on Bible interpretation. These folks could do do a Budweiser commercial:”Real Men of Genius-God Haters who debate using contrived insults as facts.”

      Funny, I was thinking you could do one called “Real Men of pretending to know things you have no clue about, and using tribal scribblings as the cornerstone for every life choice you make.”

      You state that you was a true believer until you read Deut. 3:3-6, etc. Here is my response to you based on Biblical fact: You have elevated your self-proclaimed intelligence above God’s.

      Ebonics? Too easy. Tell me, what exactly makes your judgment of Relles a biblical fact? I thought judgment was against the rules for you people? Did the word “fact” change definition while I wasn’t looking? Does the fact that Relles does not believe in a god mean your entire argument is invalid? Yeah, looks like you’d win the St. Jude award for that argument already. The rest of your rant looks like something a crazy lady on the sidewalk would shout at you, before telling you you’re going to hell. But hey, since that format seems to be working so well for you, please continue!

      • Jabster

        “The rest of your rant looks like something a crazy lady on the sidewalk would shout at you, before telling you you’re going to hell. But hey, since that format seems to be working so well for you, please continue!”

        Well as they say, god works in mysterious ways …

    • poetrini

      Terry-
      Amen Brother!

  • Jabster

    “Jabster-assumes I have never read Lenin. He says I am lying. He has no facts to back his opinion.”

    If you had read Marx and Lenin as you calaimed you have, then you wouldn’t have made such an elementary mistake. On the grounds that you did, yes I do think you’re a liar and nothing you have posted so far would lead me to conclude differently.

  • cathy

    *sigh*

    Terry, I am a Woman. The Valedictorian of my class, to be specific. (4.0 GPA). True, my major was Nursing (with a seperate Psych degree), but that is beside the point.

  • ChaplainJudi

    OK, here is one for all of you who seem to be an expert on the Bible being false and all Christians livinf a delusion:

    My pastor met a young man who desperately wanted the Word of God taught at his village in the african jungles. He was unsure if he could find his village, but after years met another who has lived there. The three of them agreed to go and try to find the village. Allied with pack mules and bushwackers, they made trails to where they thought the village was. After three weeks they arrived. As they entered the village, a woman came running from the huts. She fell at the pastors feet and said “the one I have worshiped is in you.” No people from “civilized” areas had ever attempted to reach the village, yet she recognized the one she worshiped in my pastor. How?
    By that evening, they had answered the basic questions of those who had the inner desire to follow Christ.

    I am sorry if any of my previous posts were offesive to anyone. You all did good, you pulled me in to your witch-hunt – but wait! For there to be a witch-hunt you must have two sides – good and evil!
    Recently I was invited to comment on a blog where I said “Excuse me for giving facts to those who have made up their opinions!” So for each of you who tried to bring us down, sorry, we are standing on a solid rock. For those others of you they tried to draw into their web, free yourselves in Jesus name and move on to those who want the truth. These people will know soon enough if we have been delusuional or real. They will still have a very short time to come to him on their own without the holy spirit, and they will refer back to what we said. In the meantime, lets pray daily for them!

    • Francesc

      “So for each of you who tried to bring us down, sorry, we are standing on a solid rock”
      Your solid rock is the tale of your pastor? Is he alike Mike?
      “Journalists Jon Trott and Mike Hertenstein ran some background checks and Warnke’s story tumbled like a house of cards”
      Why do you still believe him? Is it because what he says matches with your prejudices, or is it the other way around?

      Judi, I know what it would take to make me a believer: a solid proof of any god’s existence. Why would take you to deconvert?

      • ChaplainJudi

        FrancesC,

        Obviously you are not versed in Christianity, because unlike other religions, our Savious, Jesus Christ, was God become Man, part of the holy trinity. Other Religions (not relationships) follow the teaching of men. So first let me say the solid rock on which I stand it not Mike, but Jesus Christ. Secondly, what did Mike say when you asked him about this – I assume since you are drawing judgement you have actually personally spoken to him about this? I have conversations with Mike frequently, and at some point may ask him about all of this, but if he says “yes, I lied about some things” that would not change our Bible, God’s holy word. Men slip up, but not God!

        As for what it would take for me to deconvert, why would I ever imagine doing this? For you see, I have a relationship with Jesus, so I am not part of churchianity but Christianity. God has done mighty things in my life, and will continue to do so through eternity!

        What isa your personal relationship with God like?

        • Roger

          …you do realize this is an atheist’s blog and that the majority of the commenters here are also atheists, right? So, um, asking an atheist what his/her personal relationship with God is like makes about as much sense as me asking you what your personal relationship with Snuffalufagus is like.

        • Siberia

          What isa your personal relationship with God like?

          Kinda hard to have a relationship with something that doesn’t exist.

      • poetrini

        If there was “solid proof” of God’s existence, what would be the purpose of faith?

        • Jabster

          Yes excellent point. The reason that there’s no evidence for god is that then it wouldn’t require faith to believe in him. Now why didn’t I think of that … it’s obvious really.

  • ChaplainJudi

    Wow! When you look at the dates of the beginning comments and look at today’s, my sharing from the heart has really started a fire storm! I had asked for notifications when people replied not knowing how many would come in so quickly! Because I have a life and a family, I am unsubscribing, but I made promises I plan to keep about putting facts out their for people to evaluate, and when I have time I will come in and see what is being said. If I can, I will make time to respond to it. For those who reaponded with dignity, thank you for respecting my person. For those who chose vulgarity and hate, I will still lift you up in my prayers. Responding as time permits,

    ChaplainJudi

    • Relles Natas

      Judi, Judi, Judi,

      Are you Terry’s wife?

      Or are you the son of a father who, like the fellow in Johnny Cash’s ‘Boy Named Sue’ song, named you Judi?

      In either case, if you are indeed female, how do you get around this?:

      “…women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
      1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (New International Version)

      • ChaplainJudi

        My husband says nice try, but the verse you referenced was addressing a cultural issue of the time, translated today as “Dont bring your ghettoblaster to church and turn it up loud” or some similiar thing. Wow, now we are questioning my sex/gender? Spinning too fast. Bye!

        • Kodie

          Thought you were leaving for 2 whole days. You have a perverse sense of language, and your husband also does. Why would a cultural issue particular to the time be a part of the scripture you’re supposed to follow FOR ALL TIME? I believe you are a woman Judi, but you are making excuses for scripture, and if you are going to come back instead of go away like you said, how about the secret information on those human sacrifices? You seem to keep popping up like a whack-a-mole but, like, how long are we supposed to wait for the truth according to Judi?

        • JohnMWhite

          So what else in there is just to be taken as a cultural issue of the time and not a universal, eternal truth? Are the abominations of Leviticus only really a cultural thing? Is the idea that one needs to give away all of one’s possessions to follow Jesus just addressing an issue in first century Judea? If we are to attribute complex cultural context to an explicit message once, we’re going to have to do it to every statement in the whole darn book, and then anything said by Jesus or Paul or anyone else in it can be rationalised away if we don’t like it or it doesn’t fit our new culture. Hooray!

      • Relles Natas

        So, you’re saying you are Terry’s wife? What are your two master’s degrees in, and what was the name on that cereal box you got them off of?

        Face it Judi, you’ve spoken in church. You’ve broken the law. Disgraceful. No amount of interpretatifying by that New Apostolic husband of yours will be able to save you from the fires of hell now, you wicked, unfundamendalist, word-of-god twisting, unrepentant, church-talking, openly blaspheming WOman. Church is for man-talking only. You just get to sit and listen. Can’t you read? I gave you your chance, but you blew it. But I’ll pray to the ceiling for you. You and that whole women-talking church of the damned of yours.

        I wouldn’t stand next to her if I was you, Terry. She might get turned into a pillar of salt or hit by some fire and brimstone any minute now!!

        Oh, by the way, Terry– it’s all your fault anyway because you caused her to sin by twisting god’s word in the first place. She should have just plucked you out and kept her mouth shut. How’s she supposed to learn at home from her husband if you’re twisting the truth? Now it’s too late for both of you and you’re going to HELL!!!!!

        • ChaplainJudi

          Who is Terry? I am not married to a Terry, but I would be interested in reading some postings – sounds like a real character.

          I was going to stay away for two days, but this morning I woke up feeling better and decided to check in and ssee if I was still the topic for discussion.

          The Liar/Lunatic question was about Jesusw Christ, not Mike.

          I have attended some special services at church’s we did not belong to who asked the women to stay silent and out of respect I did. It is interesting what some people have said about judging people who they dont know yet that seems to be the way things are handled for the most part here. If you wonder why I respond to your postings more,. you handle things sao much better that I do not mind responding to you.

          I am working on the postings about human sacrifices. You seem to appreciuate the delicateness of how information is disseminated, so maybe you could help your co-posters understand?

          I may check in later today but probably wilol not respond until tomorrow IF I am feeling better in the morning!

          I had a real scare! Two days ago I woke up with symptoms of a stroke, but it turned out to be a complicated migraine due to the flu. But I do feel marginally better now.

          • Roger

            You should stay off the Internet and take care of your health.

            • ChaplainJudi

              Thank you for your concern, Roger. I plan to do that although some people wont see it that way.
              I hope the coming year finds you and your loved ones healthy.

            • Jabster

              We llI was really looking forward to your child sacrifce evidence … it’s such a shame that you just made it up, sorry I meant haven’t got the time to post it.

            • Roger

              And now she’s invoking an illness. How convenient!

            • Sunny Day

              I wish more people got ill from compulsive lying Bloviating Bullshit would be self correcting!

            • ChaplainJudi

              I looked on Altavista, and I hope you appreciate the fact that 68,750 links would be difficult to list. Interesting those of you who “searched and found nothing!” Try these with google or altavista, First I put in covens + human sacrifices. That yielded over 68,000 responses. Then I plugged in Halloween + human sacrifice, and found 58,000 responses. So there is the key to those “super secret” links you said no one could access.

              I am still waiting on agency permission to tell me which links are publishable.

              For those who doubt I was sick, let me know where to send the amulance and hospital bills. After all, if they aren fake they will never come, right? Oh yeah, I remember, you dont need facts to make decisions, like I was never sick and married to Terry!

              Once I post the other links I will no longer visit this site as often. When I do if someone seems to really want to know something I will respond. If I see it is used to traffic hate, fear, despisement of purity, or other such nonsense I will not waste my time, or yours since you dont want to know it anyway. See you after the rapture!

            • Elemenope

              I looked on Altavista, and I hope you appreciate the fact that 68,750 links would be difficult to list. Interesting those of you who “searched and found nothing!” Try these with google or altavista, First I put in covens + human sacrifices. That yielded over 68,000 responses. Then I plugged in Halloween + human sacrifice, and found 58,000 responses. So there is the key to those “super secret” links you said no one could access.

              LOL. You either know nothing about checking sources for credibility or you think we are idiots.

              On Altavista:

              Christmas AND human sacrifice: 8,890,000 results
              Iceland AND Nazis: 4,850,000 results
              Chocolate AND Homosexuality: 1,710,000 results

              Yeah, I can really see how you’d be impressed with the number of links that pop up. It surely is a great way to find relationships between things in reality. [/sarcasm]

              I am still waiting on agency permission to tell me which links are publishable.

              Yah, OK. What agency is this, again?

            • Sunny Day

              She still may not be able to tell you ‘Nope.
              I have it from credible sources at Faber College, you are still on Double Secret Probation.

            • klidov

              ChaplinJudi-

              Your argument(s) has absolutely no credibility with me. And you honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

              Let me preface:

              1) I come from a Law Enforcement Family, both active & retired. (My own Husband is both retired Law Enforcement AND served in Counter-Intelligence for the U.S. Military). We do our homework very well. Especially in matters of interest, like the false memory-syndrome and the “satanic-panic” of the 80′s and 90′s. Which, as I mentioned before, I myself was drawn into the Witch-hunts, till I did my homework. In addition, to be clear, I was an active member of a Christian Church and every bit the “good-God-fearing-Satan-fighting” God-Warrior.

              2) Second point, I am currently friends with, and associate with true practicing occultists/satanists. Not the “dress-in-black-live-in-Mommy’s-basement-and-kill-cats” types of poseurs. The actual adults who are *gasp* married people with children, pets, and mortgages. Frightening enough, (sarcastic here) they are normal people. As in they own & love their pets, they care about the environment, and while they spend time on their practice, no human, or animal are harmed/killed in the process.(For the most part, their children are excellent students.)

              3) My friends who are occultists/satanists are very moral people, generally speaking. They believe, for the most part, in personal responsibility in for their actions, and words. No, they do not turn the other cheek and pray for enemies. They ignore them. <–please reread if necessary. Or they allow Karma/the Powers That Be to enforce "punishment". I find them less sexually agressive/permissive, or interested in drugs legal or illegal than the average person on the street. Maybe because the "forbidden" factor is not an attraction. Author/Artist/Occult expert and former Hellfire Club owner, Edward O'Toole is a very close personal friend of mine (he even put a nice acknowlagement for me in his newest book.)

              O.K.-what is my point in name-dropping & bringing these things up? Simply, ANYONE who knows anything about Satanism (Crowley, LaVey, John Dee) knows that Mike Warnke's claims are laughably lies .Even a novice Wiccan/Witch will tell you, they do not believe in a "Satan". (Shockingly. most Satanists don't either. That is a Juedo/Christian concept. My friends who are Occultists believe that they are Gods. Or Philosophy in theory and practice is their foundation).

              Mike Warnke's claims are from bad-B Hollywood films. Pure drek. No Witch, or Wiccan believes in let alone worships a "devil".

              In addition, you can find anything on the Internet, including a website for the Flat-Earth Society. The numbers mean nothing without the facts.

              I am well-aware of the fact that the majority of the people on this site are either Athiests, or Agnostics. I don't have a problem with that. I respect their right to believe, or disbelieve. I give them that credit for their intelligence.

              I was a one-time Christian (as a said), and now I am a Proud Pagan. I am sure that there are people reading this that would be amused at the fact that I believe that trees have spirits. *smiles* The difference is, I know that I do not have emperical evidence to back-up my beliefs.

              Furthermore, I do not try to validate any claim by quoting a book that claims to be the end-all, be-all of "Truth". This whole thread is not a spiritual battle between "good-and-evil". It's about making declarative statements with no evidence to support the claims.

              Mike Warnke lied. And, lied badly. I even fell for his bullshit at one time.Till I did my homework (unbiased, fact-based) and realized his whole gag was made-up. I, for one, can admit, I fell for the lie.

              Bottom line? A lie is a lie. And it's my opinion that lying for "God's purpose" is even more repulsive because it plays on people's trust & faith.

            • Roger

              Did Judi really write “see you after the Rapture”? Wow, this person is most definitely a few beans short of a taco salad.

            • Sunny Day

              “The difference is, I know that I do not have emperical evidence to back-up my beliefs.”

              That and I’m betting you’re Not trying to get laws passed based on and therefore following your beliefs.

            • Siberia

              … Altavista? Really?
              Altavista?

            • Elemenope

              Yeah, I did a double-take with the Altavista thing too. Altavista was the first search engine I used when I first got online; I had no idea they were even still around and that people used it after Yahoo and later Google utterly dominated the market with entirely superior products.

            • Siberia

              Yeah, me too… I used Altavista when Google was still in its infancy.
              Wow, I feel old now.

      • wintermute

        So you believe in a relative morality? Just because something is immoral in one place and time doesn’t mean that it can’t be moral in another?

        Isn’t that something of a minority viewpoint amongst Christians?

  • klidov

    ChaplinJudi-

    When I was a Christian, I wanted very much to believe in my “Brothers & Sisters in Christ”.I was very much a one-time apologist in making excuses for those that were “forgiven, but not perfect”. Then I grew-up. Personal responsibility for one’s actions is the very sign of maturity & personal accountaility. Mike Warnke, A man I once believed in, is a liar & a fraud. Frankly, he gives a black-eye to those who are Believers, and instead of simply allowing “God” to to be the one to whom he answers, I would think that a “true” believer, one who wants to serve the Christ would come forward (loudly) that the brave reporters that did so for Cornorstone Magazine, and call him on his Bullshit.

    Really, defending such a jackass kinda discredits the person who makes apologies for him.

    Hold him accountable & let him face the results of his actions. How else will he learn he is not allowed to lie in “God’s”-name…?

    • ChaplainJudi

      You are absolutley right, and I said I plan to ask Mike about this. We had not been in touch for many years, and he is dealing with a matter far greater than this right now. I reviewed my writings here and I do not think that I have defended him. All I said is that I would ask him when the time was right.. Maybe some people thinki my willing to hear his side IS defending him, but that is not what was said!

      Thank you for what you shared, although my personal faith has nothing to do with whether or not I grew up! You may be able to understand better than many here that I belong to Christ’s Church, not his church. What I mean is that I follow God’s son, not man who is trying to help me to understand. Do you remember the song that said “we are one, we are one. We are one in the spirit of the Lord. My family’s pentecostal, ny neighbor Presbyterian, and I am Nazarene but we are one in the Spirit of the Lord?” Christians and non-Christians try to peg uys to qa denomination and we say we are Christians, not denominational. Even Christians have a hard time understanding that.

      Well,m I need to sign off f0r the day. NMy equilibrium is crazy this morning!

      Thanks for sharing.

      • Relles Natas

        If you’ve never seen this, it’s really a must read:

        ‘Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments’

        Justin Kruger and David Dunning
        Department of Psychology
        Cornell University

        http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/unskilled.html

        • klidov

          thank you Relles Natas. An excellent read :)

    • ChaplainJudi

      Klidov,

      Thenk you for responding in mature fashion most of the time to my postings. I was not too observant to begin with to see I was writing in an aethiest blog, though I have nothing to apologize for in what I have said except for where I have already apologized. But it seems that most people who post here are only interested in making a joke out of anyone’s beliefs. Yes, I believe there will be a rapture of the church, and if there is then Christ will return again with His Church, at which time the naysayers will be held accountable. So here is what I tell people: if I am living in a delusuion then it has been one of the best delusuions I have known of, no harm done. If I am living in a reality, then I do not want to be one of those who chose not to believe. Although I care about each person who posted here, I have many things to do with my day besides trying to converse with those who dont want facts because they already made up their opinion. So I bid farewell, except for the ONE time posting in the future to provide additional links, which I will post specifically to you since you handled yourself with dignity and class most of the time. I am sure my departure will open the floodgates of insults and inuendos, but my time will have been spent productively. Again, thenk you for leading the way of maturity in your responses. Maybe someday some of the others will catch on…

      Sincerely,
      Chaplain Judi

      • JohnMWhite

        “at which time the naysayers will be held accountable”

        Now, at the risk of sounding like I am ridiculing your beliefs by simply questioning them, I have to ask… does it not seem somewhat unreasonable for a figure of such enormous love as Jesus to have set up a system where naysayers, who are only going on their best assessment of the evidence available to them, should be held accountable for his failure to convince them of his existence? Should they really be judged as chaff and not wheat and thrown into the fire just because they came to the best conclusion they could with what was available to them?

        • http://gonewhere.info Brett Blatchley

          Hello John & Everyone, I’m Judi’s husband.

          When she read me your (John’s) reply to her comment, what immediately came to mind is that God is very much larger than this objection; this is a “human-sized” objection to someone/something assumed to be smaller than oneself.

          Imagine for a moment that if God really does exist and really did create us, imagine the great hubris required to assert our morality over His! As our creator He designed us to be moral and is Himself the definition of morality. If we have a problem with God’s morality, then I humbly submit that it is because we don’t have all the facts, or the proper perspective, or perhaps our own “moral compass” is in need of adjustment.

          BUT, to your point: God is NOT fair, rather He is merciful and gracious.

          If we are honest with ourselves, we realize that we don’t even meet our own moral standards, much less that of the moral perfection of God. Further, we all (if we are sane and mentally competent, and therefore responsible for ourselves) have a deep sense of justice. God’s sense of justice is deepest! What is wrong must be made right or “paid for” to put it in one familiar way. So, we *all* already stand condemned (from the sweetest lady to the most heinious mass-murderer), we already deserve to be separated from God, and the goodness that naturally accompanies Him. THAT is what Hell is – it’s a container for those who don’t want God. So if God was fair, there would be no way out of this for us, because though we didn’t give ourselves a rebelous nature, we have used our free will to choose to rebel.

          The mercy of God is that He knows we are stuck in this condition and that we can’t get out of it ourselves – so, He provided a way for us; He took the punishment that is due each one of us upon Himself so that He could extend us love and at the same time balance the “books” of justice.

          But He goes beyond that and gives us grace – grace is unmerited favour. For those who come to Him on His terms (and they are simple enough that a child can come), He sets about to totally remake them into the healed, whole and mature people He intended for them to be before they chose to rebel (something that takes a lifetime), and that’s just the beginning, eternity holds much more for those who love Him.

          But of course, all of this depends on how we exercise our free will – God is not going to force anyone to accept Him, and once they do accept Him, He is not going to force anyone to obey – He wants people to love Him, not robots to serve Him. We are free to reject God, but that has consequences. For those who would rather that they be their own God, there is that container called Hell. For those who have surrendered, there is an unfruitful life full of unnecessary hardship that denies the one who loved them first, AND sets a misleading example that makes it difficult for others to see God for who He is (and thus turn to Him for salvation) {sadly this is all too common}. YET we can exercise our free will in favor of God, and He will come far more than half-way to meet people who honestly want Him.

          SO, with all that in mind, it is in God’s character to make sure that EVERYONE has a genuine chance to accept forgiveness and a relationship with Him at least once in their lives. Those who really want God will find Him; those who don’t will won’t – the intellectually and morally honest people know who they are. Put another way, the truly intellectually honest will be met by God and He will (somehow) remove the intellectual barrier, but most people use such arguments as a way to try to escape ultimate responsibility to God for their lives. Again, such people know who they are, and they don’t fool the discerning, and more importantly the don’t fool God.

          I was once where you folks are – a staunch atheist. I had all these questions too, and as I matured (and struggled in life) my intellectual honestly grew to where I was willing to consider some uncomfortable answers to my deepest concerns. At that point, I still didn’t believe that God existed, or if there was a god then it was no more than an impersonal force. BUT I finally humbled myself to look in the last place I would have expected to find God: the Bible. I turned to the book called Romans and I said to God something like this: “I don’t know if you exist, People that I trust say you do and that this book is living and that I will find you here. If that is the truth, then help me to know this without doubt that you are real. I want to know the truth.” God answered that “prayer” and I eventually surrendered my life to Jesus. He has since healed me of totally humanly-impossible issues that are beyond the experience of most people. (I’ve written about this extensively elsewhere on the ‘Net.)

          Take Care Everyone

          PS) Please note that it’s very unlikely that I’ll write again in this forum, but I will answer polite email: Brett.Blatchley{at}Repartie.net.

          • Kodie

            Our god is not an efficient god.

            I think if I could imagine there was a god, which most people who believe in god have actually imagined there is a god, I would have to explain his behavior and his justice a lot like this. It doesn’t make sense, but you get too lost in the maze, and then you just give up, connect all the disconnected pieces with shortcuts, wave your hands and say, it’s impossibly large or incomprehensible, because that’s how god would roll, we are but stupid humans, and it will all come together in the hereafter, just you wait. Or you stay out of it all together, safe in the knowledge that it’s just not worth getting involved, no matter what anyone swears to know.

          • JohnMWhite

            “We are free to reject God, but that has consequences. For those who would rather that they be their own God, there is that container called Hell. For those who have surrendered, there is an unfruitful life full of unnecessary hardship that denies the one who loved them first, AND sets a misleading example that makes it difficult for others to see God for who He is (and thus turn to Him for salvation) {sadly this is all too common}. YET we can exercise our free will in favor of God, and He will come far more than half-way to meet people who honestly want Him.”

            This is not a choice. This is not freedom. To reject god and be forced to face drastic consequences is just holding a gun to your head while he demands that you, in your own words, surrender to him. This is a system by which you lose, massively, by not giving god what he wants. You cannot walk away, you get stuffed in a torturous container for ever and ever and ever. That’s not love, that’s not freedom. It is simply an abusive relationship wherein one entity has complete power over the fate of another. Where’s the choice to reject god but also reject hell? Where’s the choice to not exist, to have never existed? Where is the choice to enter heaven without kowtowing to god’s arbitrary demands? You can call god the definition of morality but that simply renders morality meaningless – it becomes ‘moral’ of god to do whatever he wants. So in the end, all we are doing is following orders, without a real choice, to please a god who is apparently in favour of the Nuremberg defence as the height of morality.

          • Roger

            Basically, this is Battered Spouse syndrome. Your abusive, petty, tyrannical, egomaniacal, megalomaniacal deity gives you a “choice” to worship it; of course, you can “choose” to not do this. However, if you choose “no,” your abusive, petty, tyrannical, egomaniacal, and megalomaniacal deity will send you to a place of eternal torment.

            Bullshit. You wouldn’t put up with this from a human being–you definitely wouldn’t put up with this from a parent. In fact, you’d call this behavior abusive and evil. Yet, your deity gets a free pass. Let’s set aside the fact that you cannot prove this entity’s existence. The characteristics that you attribute to this entity render it utterly immoral, cruel, and worthy of nothing but the deepest of contempt and opprobrium.

            • JohnMWhite

              While I totally agree with this assessment, unfortunately we seem to first have to get past the hurdle of this man’s belief that god IS morality; by definition whatever god does is moral. I’m not really sure how to get around such a wilfully stubborn and irrational concept, which is why I’m trying to demonstrate how logically this is not a choice (for a human) anyway.

            • Roger

              Good point, John. Of course, we come to Euthyphro’s dilemma. If this “god” of the Christian can do whatever it bloody well pleases and those actions are “moral,” then who is it to tell humans to do when it can act so capriciously and without regard for humanity? What irritates me is the Christian description of this perverse relationship as “love.” There’s nothing “loving” about this relationship at all. And for Christians to characterize their abusive, petty dictator as the ground of all morality is itself part of a battered spouse syndrome–the deity can do no wrong, controls everything, and everything that we do is our fault.

            • Relles Natas

              Hmmm. I wonder if Euthyphro was the inspiration for Randy Newman’s ‘God’s Song’?:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVCGf0CnYzw

          • Custador

            Tell me something Brett:

            If I had you and your entire family tied up in chairs, put a red pill and a blue pill in front of you, told you that you had to take one but the choice of which one was entirely your own decision but that if you took the red pill I would have you and your entire family gang-raped and murdered – which pill would you take?

            That is effectively the “free will” which you vaunt so highly. If one is raised to believe in Christianity, one has no choice at all. It’s only when you realise that it’s all bullshit, that the ropes securing you to the chair are imaginary and you’re free to stand up and smack me with the chair then flush the pills down the toilet – That is when you start exercising “free will”, my friend.

            • Cucumber

              In love with this Matrix anology. Four for you.

            • Custador

              Aw, thanks Cucumber :-)

            • Cucumber

              *Analogy.

              But what if I want the purple pill, or orange pill?! Lulz. There could be any number of pills and there could also be unicorns and also chainsaws.

            • Custador

              If they take the orange pill then I get to strap suicide vests on them and send them to blow up the purple pill takers who refused the blue pill and stole the land of the orange pill takers.

      • Sunny Day

        “But it seems that most people who post here are only interested in making a joke out of anyone’s beliefs.”

        This is what happens when people make up fantastical claims and get called on their bullshit. Perhaps your ministerial duties of Lying for Jesus didn’t prepare you to face criticism from adults who don’t automatically swallow whole any claim you care to make.

        “who don’t want facts because they already made up their opinion.”

        Facts: They are not just what you say. They are what you can prove. We’re happy to listen to whatever you have to say but be prepared to answer questions and back up what you claim.

        • Relles Natas

          Thought processes of a “believer”:

          1. Assume any and all “unbelievers” you come into contact with have no knowledge of the history, development, sources or substance of your “beliefs”.

          2. Don’t ask any questions to find out what they might know or where they , but ignore everything they say, launch into your “testimony” about how you used to be just like them, blah, blah, blah, complete with “cut and paste” theology of your choice thrown which verifies your particular version of the truth.

          3. Assume their logical counterpoints to your gobbledygook and their own experiences with believing the same kinds of things themselves are signs of willful ingorance on their part or just plain old devil possession.

          4. Tell them that if you’re wrong, you’ll just rot in a dark grave when you die, while if they’re wrong, they’ll go to hell for eternity. Kind of like telling them that if gravity is wrong all you’ve done is cling to that tree all your life while if it’s true then they’ll go floating off into space at any minute.

          5. Keep repeating steps 1-4 until you get tired of their devilish “nonsense”, that you don’t read anyway, because you already know all truth for all time.

          6. Then shake the dust of their (town, thread, etc) off of your feet, share your sincere hope that they will some day find the “truth” too, repeat steps 1-4 at least one more time, especially the part about going to hell, then ride off into the sunset, while claiming something clever to you like it’s really the “Son” set, and that you won’t be back anymore.

          7. Come back, and start from step 1.

          How do I know all this? Because I did the EXACT same thing thousands of times myself back when I used to think I knew everything and was God’s personal spokesman too.

          • http://gonewhere.info Brett Blatchley

            Your statements show alot of thought and decision-making, and when you say no one asks how you came to your conclusions, I plead guilty. So please, tell me what made you turn away from your personal belief to a personal unbelief. Like I and my husband said (note he is not Terry)
            we are interested in corresponding with people who want to discuss and not just slam people. And if I did any of that, please forgive me. It probably was not the best idea to start my correspondence on a day that a family near us had such a tragedy amd when I was as sick as I was. I am feeling SO much better niow that I am on the dizzyness medicine Antivert and new ribbon for the eye infection, and medicine for the complicated migraine. Boy., that was so scary because it seemed like I was having a stroke! Anyway, I am interested in what changed your mind/heart.

            • JohnMWhite

              “Like I and my husband said”

              Congratulations on your homosexual marriage, Brett. Tough to get those.

              In seriousness I’m guessing this is yourself, Judi, having forgotten to switch accounts? Just to be clear.

            • Relles Natas

              Well Juli, and I’m assuming this is Juli again using your husband’s registration now– this site has a rather ingenious method whereby one can identify a poster’s previous posts by matching up the distinctive shaped and colored icon/avatar beside their name. Mine happens to be green, and appears somewhat to the north and west.

              I have already written a number of lengthy posts here– all of which detail numerous such “thought processes” and “decisions” that I was forced into making along the way, because when I became a Christian by kneeling down, repenting of my sins, and asking Jesus into my heart to make me a new creature “in Him” so that I would enjoy eternal life– and was baptized in a river in Kansas in December, by the way– I believed I had a “contract” with god based on his eternal promises– by grace through faith, and not by works, lest any man should boast.

              I had been led to believe this “contract” was available and also “eternal” by people like this POS Mike Warnke, Hal Lindsey, Josh McDowell, a number of Dhristian friends from high school, who repeatedly told me that the Bible was inerrant, that it could be trusted inherently, that it had absolute internal, literal consistency. They showed me all kinds of prophecies and told me all kinds of stories, and since I didn’t know much Bible and I didn’t know much history it all sounded good to me and I bought it hook, line, and sinker.

              I was taught that because it was the “Word of God”, and “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” So with credentials like that I naively assumed that such a “Word” would stand up to any amount of reading of it that I could do! In fact, I thought the more I read it, the more sense it would make, and the better I would be able to share it with others, and the more true it would become to me, so I read, and studied, and meditated upon it, and prayed, and did indeed endeavor to share it with anyone who would listen and even some who would not– just as you are doing here.

              For years I believed with all my heart that I had found the “life” and the “light”. In fact “I found IT” was on several of my T-shirts at the time. Now I realize you aren’t even reading any of this, so I’m not going to start listing off all the contradictions in the Bible that I began to find right away. The fact is that for most of the early ones– for the first three or four years– with my growing shelf of concordances, commentaries, Bible encyclopedias, Bible dictionaries, Christian books, and the counsels of other Christians and Elders I was able to “explain” away most of my problems away the way your husband “explained” away Paul’s clear commandment that women are to remain silent in the church with silly comments about ghetto blasters and noise making or whatever.

              But truly, I say unto you, that it was only after I had become expert in the Bible, and had read it many times over– only then did I begin to be able to discern that occasionally the same stories or parables told in the various Gospels would have the occasional discrepency, and later began to find the more serious contradictions such as on which day the Last Supper took place, or which day Christ was crucified, or even how many days or nights he stayed in the tomb.

              Once such things as those accumulated to such an extent– I was forced to either believe my own mind was lying to me, or continue believing what was increasingly becoming an obvious lie. And this is not to say that the whole Bible is a lie, just the fact that it is inerrant, or that it can be trusted by its internal consistency to be a proof of the eternal promises of God, and therefore be trusted as a guidebook to “eteranl life” or to have even originated from the kind of God of whom it claimed to be the “Word”.

              So if you wish to go back and look for my distinctive green icon/avatar with Relles Natas appearing clearly beside it, and actually read what I had to say, and then come back to me with answers which are not the same answers I have listened to hundreds, if not thousands of other Christians wriggling around and copping to in the past– great. If not don’t worry– it won’t be a big surprise. I have, as they say, been there, and done that, and I have very low expectations of you, because I know your “Word”.

            • klidov

              I really, sincerely hope that Judi, her Husband, or any of the other people/personalities that use the account to post, read all of what you have had to say Rellas. I sincerely do.

              They will be in denial. They will attempt to pick apart your testamony. They will give in to the knee-jerk “It must be Satan” fall-back excuse. They will attempt to “pray about it”, giving God an out if “He” does not clear things up for them.

              But maybe, just maybe, they will think about what you have said. They will be fearful for doing so, at first. And angry with you for making them question. At least at first.

              But maybe they (and the lurkers) WILL begin to question. And seek out answers.

              I was the female version of you once, Rellas. I walked a mile in your shoes as a “believer”. And, your story really matches my own, minus certain details.

              Well-done Rellas. You truly are a voice of reason.

            • Cucumber

              The fact that neither have bothered to read your posts is proof enough of their fail. I’ve noticed that with any post of a considerable length, xtians here tend to ignore them and focus instead on the smaller ones that either are there mostly for comic relief.

              If they can’t even exert themselves to read an internet post, it stands to reflect their comprehension of the Bible, at the very least.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    Try as I may, it is hard to understand how a person like you can end up where you are. I do not pretend to know you, but you remind me of Charles Templeton,once Billy Graham’s pulpit partner and close friend. Some thought Templeton would eclipse Graham as an evangelist. One day, Templeton saw a photograph in “Life” magazine. It was a picture of a black woman in Africa, holding her dead baby in her arms and looking up to heaven in deep sorrow. Templeton wondered how a loving God could allow this woman’s baby to die. From this,Templeton renounced his faith.
    “I had gone through a conversion experience as an incredibly green youth. I lacked the intellectual skills and the theological training needed to buttress my beliefs when-as was inevitable-questions and doubts began to plague me…My reason had begun to challenge and sometimes to rebut the central beliefs of the Christian faith.”

    Templeton’s doubts began to work on his friend Billy Graham. One night,Graham confessed to God that he could not answer all the questions that his friend Templeton was raising. He told God that he was going to accept the Bible as God’s word “by faith”. He also said the would allow faith to go beyond his own intellectual questions and doubts.” Billy Graham allowed his faith to overcome the doubts from his intellect. Templeton allowed his intellect to overcome his faith. Graham remained anevangelist, Templeton becamea commentator and a novelist.

    Athiest George H. Smith states, “Reason and faith are opposites, two mutually exclusive terms: there is no reconciliation or common ground. Faith is belief without, or in spite of, reason.”

    Christian educator W. Bingham Hunter takes the opposite view. “Faith is a rational response to the evidence of God’s self-revelation in nature, human history, the Scriptures and his resurrected Son.”

    Maybe you have overthought everything to the point of allowing your intellegence to be superior to God’s? I don’t know. I do know this. On this Easter weekend, I’m just going to look for myself into the empty tomb, and thank Jesus for what that means for me, and for my eternal destiny. I hope everyone here does the same. Happy Easter.

    • Relles Natas

      Sorry Terry, you’re just arguing in circles. Either your beliefs make sense, they will stand up to investigation, and become more solid over time through study– or they don’t make sense, they should just be accepted by faith, and any/all weaknesses/discrepencies/contradictions which your human mind might discover in them should just be ignored as mysteries about god which we, the likeness of god, just cannot figure out with the puny brains he gave us. Fair enough.

      I see that you, like all true believers, have chosen the second route which is fine with me. Just don’t turn around later and try to throw out supposed facts as some kind of foundation for those beliefs, because at the bottom there are none– and you have just admitted as much. All you have is “experience”, not facts. I’m not expecting to change anyone’s religious beliefs– especially not a preacher like you, though some day you might wake up– I’m just intending to provide an alternative voice of someone who has “been there and done that” to anyone as young and naive as I once was who might be following the discussion here and be tempted to believe your split personality in a minute when you decide to throw out some Josh McDowell, Hal Lindsey, or even Mike Warnke– or any other crap for that matter– as “evidence” that demands a verdict in your favor. I have arrived at the verdict– BUNK! You have arrived at the verdict– BLIND BELIEF!

      My good friend Jesus’ bones have long ago turned to dust as all ours shall, and his teachings have either been lost or irretrievably corrupted, and you’re participating this weekend in what is at its root an Ishtar/mother goddess worship rite of Spring– mainly the rebirth of the sun/vernal equinox, and hopes for agricultural fertility as represented by those rabbits and eggs. So celebrate your sun worship at dawn Sunday like the born-again pagan-in-denial you are, but just remember this– the gospels have differing accounts of when the last supper, Jesus’ crucifixion, and death occurred, and even disagree on the number of days and nights he supposedly stayed in the tomb before rising from the dead http://unreasonablefaith.com/2010/04/02/when-was-jesus-crucified/ .

      So check it all out if you dare, and come on back and say it doesn’t matter, or that your brain just can’t understand the greatness of god, or whatever excuse you need, just as long as you understand you’re not going to get away with acting like you know what you’re talking about around here, like you do at Bible study and Sunday school, OK?

  • Terry

    Poetrini,
    thanks for the support. I encourage you to continue with your comments on this website. After a few weeks absence, I felt led to return. Atheists mock “faith”, yet it takes much more faith to be an atheist than it takes to be a Christian.

    Believing that everything created was done so without a creator takes a faith that I do not possess. That, my fellow Christian friend, is true “Blind Faith”. That’s like saying that the dictionary was created from an explosion at a print shop. Random chance, our athiest opponets contend. Well, I am not satisfied with leaving my eternal destiny to random chance, are you?

    What a great weekend we have in store for us. Just think. A God that loved us so much that He gave his only son as a substitute for our sins. That Son who is also God became flesh, and not only willingly gave himself as the perfect sacrifice, He also defeated death by raising Himself from the dead on the third day so we who believe in this AWESOME GOD will also live eternally with Him. We can enjoy this Easter with joy, love, and thanksgiving. Our athiest friends will blaspheme, deny and hate Christ and the empty tomb. That’s OK, He can take their taunts…so can we.

    • Jabster

      Can you come up with some original arguments next time Terry, oh and when using the term “random chance” it helps if you know the subject you’re talking about in the first place otherwise you make yourself sound somewhat ignorant and it opens you up to being show as that.

      p.s. I liked the Christian persecution bit at the end I and was only surprised than you didn’t also offer to pray for us.

    • Relles Natas

      Oh yummy yes, just think– a weekend of Christian worship based originally on an eastern fertility religion, which even takes its name from a corrupted pronunciation of the goddess Ishtar.

      So at dawn on Sunday, when Jesus would only have been in the grave for no more than two nights (maybe three) and about a day (maybe two), depending on which gospel account you choose to “believe” (just don’t add anything up– remember it’s such a MYSTERY!)– you’ll be continuing nearly two thousand years of Christian error! Yes, you’ll actually be marking the annual re-birth of the sun god after its long winter’s dying, greeting that vernal equinox (give or take a week or two either way with all the calendar issues which have arisen after all these years) in imitation of ancient pagan fertility religion without the slightest clue– as usual.

      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
      I don’t care what they may say
      I don’t care what they may do
      I don’t care what they may say
      Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus is just alright
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
      I don’t care what they may know
      I don’t care where they may go
      I don’t care what they may know
      Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus, he’s my friend; Jesus, he’s my friend
      He took me by the hand; Led me far from this land
      Jesus, he’s my friend
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
      I don’t care what they may say, I don’t care what they may do
      I don’t care what they may say, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah

      ~Doobie Brothers

    • claidheamh mor

      Poetrini, thanks for the support. I encourage you to continue with your comments on this website.

      Of course you do. You need people who also believe in your particular mythology and agree with you to reinforce your beliefs.

      Atheists mock “faith”, yet it takes much more faith to be an atheist than it takes to be a Christian.

      Wrong again! That old, unoriginal saw again! “a-”: without, not, and “-theism”: belief in any particular mythology’s deity, means that – finding that the mythology of that deity does not hold up to reason. (Any type of reason: it’s internally inconsistent, it’s inconsistent with fact or history, it’s violent or mentally unhealthy….) Like not-stamp-collecting isn’t a hobby. Not believing a mythology is not not “faith”.

    • JohnMWhite

      “Believing that everything created was done so without a creator takes a faith that I do not possess.”

      But believing that a creator created everything without being created itself requires no faith at all… at least, no faith in causality.

      “That, my fellow Christian friend, is true “Blind Faith”. That’s like saying that the dictionary was created from an explosion at a print shop.”

      Actually it’s more like a print shop exploded and then the result, whatever that may be, ended up being named the dictionary. You are presuming that the universe looks like the universe you know and perceive and that is somehow an enormous coincidence of chance. It’s not, it is merely a result.

      “Just think. A God that loved us so much that He gave his only son as a substitute for our sins.”

      A god that loved us so much that he made a special place of eternal torment for us then had to kill himself to appease himself so that we wouldn’t be sent there so long as we believed in him.

      “That Son who is also God became flesh, and not only willingly gave himself as the perfect sacrifice, He also defeated death by raising Himself from the dead on the third day so we who believe in this AWESOME GOD will also live eternally with Him.”

      Three points… First of all, death wasn’t exactly defeated, we died before and we continue to die since. Secondly, it wasn’t really the third day after his death, more like the second morning after it, but I suppose Jesus was an over-achiever. Finally… stating this stuff over and over as if it is fact on an atheist website isn’t going to get you anywhere. It is pure conjecture with no basis whatsoever. If you believe it to be true, that’s fine, but it’s no more relevant to just keep telling us these things than it would be for me to go to a Star Wars forum and tell them of the adventures of my dog with no evidence to back it up.

    • Roger

      After a few weeks absence, I felt led to return.

      Loverly. Could you also be “felt led” to make some bloody sense and think critically?

  • Terry

    jabster,
    you are a man of deep thought. why don’t you tap into your infinite reserves of gray matter and explain to everyone what random chance secertly means. again, you only offer opinions without ant type of back-up. I’m n ot suprised I sound ignorant to you, you have shown me no evidence of intelligence.

    • Elemenope

      Random chance is random chance. What Jabster is saying is that you’re abusing the concept and misapplying it to the conversation.

      For an analogy, consider the formation of stalactites. Each water drop pregnant with dissolved minerals does indeed take a random course to the ground. However, stalactites form in a predictable (and beautiful) manner because each prior drop’s deposition affects how the next drop will travel and deposit. On the small scale it is random, but when observed over time, patterns are observable.

    • Jabster

      It’s really simple as Terry as multiple posters have already shown they know exactly what I mean but your ignorance shows brightly with your comment concerning “random chance”. As I said before it’s best to understand the subject you’re talking about before posting but you obviously think that parading your stupid in a public forum is a virtue.

      I’ll pray for you …

  • Jim Newman

    Mike Warnke is having you all on for a laugh. I hope you won’t take him seriously.
    I rode the school bus with him every day, to school, in the early and mid 1960s, to Rim of the World High School in Lake Arrowhead California.
    He lived with relatives in a part of Crestline California called Valley of Enchantment.
    He was a nice enough guy. After all of these years it’s nice for me to know how my high school classmates turned out..:)

    • Klidov

      “..Mike Warnke is having you all on for a laugh. I hope you won’t take him seriously…”

      I a pretty sure I speak not only for myself when I say, what Mike Warnke thinks/finds amusing on any topic means little/nothing to me.

      Just sayin’

  • Terry

    Jabster,
    I have never said that I would pray for you. I believe that God will not force a person to do something, or anything against their will. God will not force you, Rellas, Jabster, and every other athiest on this blog to become Christians against your will just because I prayed for Him to do so. So relax.

    Does that sound contradictory to Christian faith? The night Judas betrayed Him, Jesus prayed to the Father for the remaining 11 disciples, calling Judas the son of perdition.

    Why would Jesus treat you, Rellas, Jabster,Klidov, and the rest of the athiest Jesus betrayers any different? Matthew 12:31 says, “and so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, BUT the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

    Paul goes on to say in Romans 1:28, God turned them over to a reprobate mind…”
    God does not do this until He is certain that the person is beyond redemption.

    You and your athiest friends blaspheme God, and you enjoy it. You are His enemies. Sadly I think all of you may have gone to far. He may have turned you over to the reprobate mind-Satan.

    • Relles Natas

      Bye bye, Terry.

      I hope your feet are quite clean now. This is the third or fourth time you’ve shaken the dust of this thread off of them and “left”.

      You did your best. You hurled numerous threats of fire and brimstone, predictably. You spewed sufficient nonsensical gibberish. Now you’ve brought out the big gun– the unforgiveable sin, the one even the blood of Jesus Christ can’t cover– blaspheme against the Holy Spirit!! (Cue scary organ music)

      Now, away with you! I’ve been tired of arguing with nuts like you for 30 years already. But you won’t get the last word here, no matter how hard you try.

      HAPPY ISHTAR DAY, AND A MERRY VERNAL EQUINOX TO ALL!!

    • JohnMWhite

      “I believe that God will not force a person to do something, or anything against their will.”

      Except burn for all eternity for not believing in him.

      • Jabster

        Good old god, he gave as free will to do as we please but will punish us if we don’t do as he pleases!

      • claidheamh mor

        Bwaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha!

        The gobble of “loving” Christians everywhere: (@johnmwhite this time in thousands)

        “You are in for such a big surprise/nasty shock when you die. We have to give up the good stuff in this life, but we’ll get ours (the good stuff) when we die. You bad atheists get the good stuff now, but you will get YOURS (the really really bad stuff) when you die. And it will be FOREVER! And you will finally see I’m right when you get yours, bwaaaaahhaaahaahahaha….”

        It’s too convincing… I’m being saved… I feel the call to give my life to Jesus… I finally heard the word… another soul saved… I finally saw the light…I’m converting to Christianity… this true Christian was such a shining, hate-filled example of the Lord Jesus Christís pure hate… I feel it… it is so powerful… I’m shaking all over (or is that repressed laughter?)… I’m giving my life to Christ and spreading the word of his hate… this spiteful true Christian has finally made me see the error of my ways… I’m turning Christian…

      • claidheamh mor

        Or — was my irony meter low on power again?

        Sheesh on me. Well, good for making fun of terry (and his dusty feet from all the round trips).

    • Klidov

      “…Klidov, and the rest of the atheist Jesus betrayers any different…”

      *sigh*

      Terry. Ah, Terry. I am neither an atheist or an agnostic. (Just like your previous assumption that I was a Male. I am a Female).

      Friendly advice: Declarative statements are not your friend.

  • Jabster

    “… and was only surprised than you *didn’t* also offer to pray for us.”

    I see you reading skills are at much the same level as your understanding of what “random chance” really means. Maybe you should try and educate yourself but then again there is a certain class of believers (and you seem to be included here) that don’t wish to have the views challenged and revel in their own ignorance.

    Oh and here’s a hint, quoting Bible passages at non-believers is a bit of a non-starter. Would you take notice if a Muslim said you where wrong and backed it up with passages from the Qur’an … no you wouldn’t would you?


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X