The Devil Made Me Do It: Mike Warnke’s Ministry of Lies

by Lorette C. Luzajic
Part 15 of the Pillars of Faith series

warnkeAs kids, we loved the devil. Satan was the topic in youth ministry that didn’t make us nod off. The apocalypse might keep us awake, too — white horses and dragons made good fantasy reading that was otherwise forbidden. But devil stories were better. A pastor’s son had been “dabbling” in horoscopes, putting the family at risk of demon possession! One morning, he was shaving when the neighbor’s cat began talking to him from the window.

I was oblivious to the horror trends of the era, films where talking cats were a dime a dozen. Later, I heard the story again… and again. It was a standard and legal justification for execution in the witch burning trials, proof that the devil was pussyfooting around.

When Mike Warnke shared his lurid past as an army brat, drug addict and high priest of Satan, we were mesmerized. Mike’s book, The Satan Seller was in high demand. Kidnapped into the church of Satan after being shot, Warnke was saved by Jesus Christ. He came clean about baby sacrifices, summoning evil spirits, orgiastic perversions, rapes, Illuminati conspiracies, very long fingernails, ritual slayings, and magic spells. Mike, who billed himself a “Christian comedian,” put out spoken word albums about his conversion and about the dangers of Halloween, among other things, selling millions of books and records. Warnke was by far the coolest testament to Christ’s awesome powers. Defying the powers of darkness, he told his story to Oprah, Larry King, and more.

More than mere witness for Jesus, Warnke was internationally renown as the foremost authority on Satanism and the occult. He was a trusted advisor in law enforcement on Satanic crime and ritual abuse.

Celebrations of Dope

Pullquote: Journalists Jon Trott and Mike Hertenstein ran some background checks and Warnke’s story tumbled like a house of cards.

Today he continues to save souls with his ministry Celebrations of Hope. He looks more like a bishop in his white clerical robes than the freewheeling Jesus biker of his youth — and that’s because he IS a bishop. Sort of. Ordained by an independent priest into the Byzantine Catholic tradition, Warnke is not your average evangelist.

But then, no one knows just who or what Warnke is. Testimonials on his website refer to his honesty, integrity, humility, and humor. Yet the man can’t seem to “keep the story straight” from one book to another. Does he have two BAs or a PhD? How many times was he injured in Vietnam? When did he become a Christian? And how many wives has he had?

In 1992, Cornerstone, a Christian publication, said The Satan Seller was the source most responsible for the “Satan scare” that was in vogue those past few decades. Journalists Jon Trott and Mike Hertenstein ran some background checks and Warnke’s story tumbled like a house of cards.

Black Mass with Manson

Pullquote: All his friends and colleagues said he was lying.

Speaking to over 100 friends and colleagues, not one of them could verify strange behavior, track marks or wounds, or any other clues to Mike’s past. Everyone said he was lying. The calendar of full moon rituals didn’t even match up, and neither did other dates. A ritual with Charles Manson was quite the black magic: for Manson was at that time in jail. Claims of missing bodies thrown in dumpsters did not match any records.

Mike had asked friends to sign an authenticity affidavit for his book, but they refused, saying it was all bull. Pictures from the peak of Warnke’s Satan worship days showed a conservative nerd, not a strung out longhair with six inch fingernails. Mike’s involvement as a high priest of Beelzebub was limited to one or two Ouija sessions as a kid and possibly some rock n’ roll air guitar.

Far worse than tall tales, former wife Carolyn spoke freely about Mike beating the living hell out of her.

Backmasking for Jesus

Pullquote: I think we’re safer listening to Led Zeppelin backwards that Mike Warnke straight up.

In response to the dismantling of this ministry, Warnke said Satan was at work again. He stated that maybe he had “embellished” certain scenes to get the message across. One example was that the coven of 1,500 had only 13 members, a difference hardly worth mentioning. Mike stood by his story, saying it had happened exactly as described.

He was already in trouble with the IRS for tax evasion and misuse of ministry funds. Word Records dropped him as his lies caught up to him. There was no way out, so finally Mike confessed he had acted ungodly towards his wives and been a failure to others. But he would not turn his back on Satan — the story stands to this day, despite the complete lack of evidence and the multitude of holes.

I think we’re safer listening to Led Zeppelin backwards that Mike Warnke straight up.

But perhaps Mike really was in the hands of the devil. Jesus himself said, “You belong to your father the devil… because he is a liar and the father of lies.”

Lorette C. Luzajic writes about all kinds of interesting people at Fascinating People.

  • vorjack

    Mike, who billed himself a “Christian comedian,”

    That should have been our first tip off. You can be a comedian, you can be a Christian, you can be a comedian who happens to be a Christian, but you can’t be a Christian(tm) Comedian. As Eco reminds us, Jesus never laughed.

    • DDM

      I always see picture of him grinning though. Knowing he never laughed, that’s kiiiiiiiiinda creepy.

      • Jerry

        What makes you think Jesus never laughed? He was a human just like us, sort of hard to live for 33 years and never laugh.

        • http://www.houstonclownfun.com sharon

          There is no question Jesus not only laughed but has a very ironic sense of humor – a totally Jewish sense of humor. Remember he told a gentile lady that he could not give the food from the children’s table to the dogs and the lady made him laugh by saying the dogs get to have the doggy-bag leftovers the kids don’t eat – he really liked that lady cause she made him laugh.

          Also – he was having a great time laughing with some friends and teaching and one sister tells him her sister needs to work harder on the meal and he tells the strict sister she needs to have more fun.

          And how can anybody NOT laugh at His friend Peter who – when taken up on a mountain and gets to meet important bible heros like Moses – said ” This is great! let’s build them all a tabernacle ! ”

          but – point taken, Warnke is …a disappointment – but he keeps on truckin !

    • ChaplainJudi

      Chonda Pierce is a Christian Comedian. There are others though that is the name that comes to mind.

    • Jim Newman

      Good grief, if jesus never laughed, he must have been an unhappy, Jewish Homosexual.
      OY VEY

    • BRENDA POTTER

      How do you know Jesus never laughed? I don’t believe that. He wept, I believe he also laughed.

    • FarEastPoke

      Jesus laughs loudly in the Gospel of Judas…

  • http://larianlequella.com Larian LeQuella

    So is this one of the main perpetrators of the “baby sacrifice” myth that haunted so many hysterical towns? I vaugely recall reading some rather haunting debunking of this myth, and the horrible effects it had on many people. In particular when people had “recovered” memories of abuse at the hands of these supposed satanic covens.

    It’s firghtening how gullible people are… But then, just look at ANY religion, and you see really how gullible people are!

    • ChaplainJudi

      Well, here are some facts for you to chew on.

      Any claims Mike has set aside, I work as a volunteer with an agency that looks for people who are missing. I would name it but would have to wait weeks for permission. The first missing persons case I went out on was three days prior to Halloween. I was shocked and dismayed when my trainer answered the mom’s question “What are the percentages of a recovery” The trainer took a big swallow and said “Prior to the three days before Halloween, recovery rates are about 68%. Three days BEFORE Halloween it drops to 13%.” There was no more discussion between my trainer and the mom about the percentages, but once back to our vehicle I asked why the difference. She said the covens kidnap people to use in human rituals – and are very thorough because all the body parts are used, so there is nothing to recover. That is why our family does not honor Halloween in any way. Now,do you think most covens are going to be honest with you about rituals? If you think they will, I have an iceberg hotel in the Sahara Desert I will be glad to sell you!

      • wintermute

        Yeah, you’re going to need to provide a citation for something like this. I’ve checked FBI and national police reports and statistics, as well as doing a general Google search, and I can’t find any evidence that there’s the slightest blip in clear-up rates for missing persons during Hallowe’en. So, can you point me to the evidence I so clearly missed?

        • ChaplainJudi

          I will be happy to get you the statistics. I have access to some records that Joe Public cannot access and I need to be sure I am allowed to give out those links. But there is public information that I have found for other groups. I am recovering from the “funky flu” so it may take me a few days. Thank you fior wanting to know facts and not opinions.

          • Jabster

            *coughs* bullshit *coughs*

            • Sunny Day

              The Earth-Shattering information about a massive conspiracy and cover up of murders should take a back seat to Your health issues. The miniscule effort required to post a link could be substantially hazardous to your well being.

              The Neo-Fluxumondium rays that are used to beam you to the secure location where you can pan-anally access the information have been known to blow simple flu like symptoms into a raging case of cranial rectal inversion.

            • Moe

              yup, it IS bullshit. The old “satanic panic” crap with the little boast of ” I have inside information I am not at liberty to show to the public” garbage.

              “ChaplainJudy” maybe one of those police chaplains on the “God Squad” ((rolls eyes))

          • wintermute

            So, you are claiming that every law enforcement agency in the country (and presumably around the world), along with the friends and relatives of the victims, is actively engaged in a massive conspiracy to cover up a systematic and predictable series of murders? Are there any agencies other than the one you claim to work for that have noticed these murders are happening, and that the clear-up rate for them is exactly zero? (After all, when was the last time anyone was convicted of conducting human sacrifice for Hallowe’en?)

            You’ll forgive me if I think that this is an extraordinary claim, and that I plan on withholding assent until such time as you can present more significant evidence than “I have secret statistics that I’m not allowed to show you”. And, as Elemenope points out elsewhere, why aren’t your employers doing everything they can to warn people about these terrible crimes? Why are they helping to cover it up?

            • Sunny Day

              Permission from the Mothership will be coming in the next few days. Why do you doubt so?

              While we’re waiting why don’t we try a personal relationship with Gandolf.

          • Cucumber

            You are aware crime statistics are high on ANY public holiday? Kids in costumes are running through neighbourhoods at night. I mean really.

          • wintermute

            it may take me a few days

            It’s been 10 days, which is more than “a few”, and no sign of any super-secret evidence for satanic Hallowe’en murders. Methinks perhaps absence of evidence is, in this case, evidence of absence?

          • Martin

            Hi. I am very concerned at Chaplain Judi’s health. Has she not recovered enough to post the secret figures that we have all been waiting for now for over a year. Or has she been kidnapped for a secret ceremony or was she lying or perpetrating an urban myth. Come clean top secret Judi of the top secret agency that looks for missing people but cannot disclose they are doing so.

    • Jerry

      Religion is politics and government, Jesus was not into religion. People named the disciples Christians after Jesus. Jesus is not a Christian or religious, He is God.

      • Elemenope

        Of all the lines that Christians like to use, the whole “it’s not a religion, it’s a relationship” tack is one of the hardest to respect.

        Words mean things. The word “religion” encompasses Christianity, no getting around that.

        • Jerry

          I agree, we can have a personal relationship with Jesus, not a religious one. Religion belongs to the the Pope and other worthless idiots.

          • enjoying_the_rapture

            “Jesus is not a Christian or religious, He is God.”
            “we can have a personal relationship with Jesus”

            I have a personal relationship with Mithras. As far as “He is a God” – sure…take your pick:

            http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/names/gods.htm

            We humans love to invent gods.

            • Ty

              Mithras is cheating on me?!

            • Sunny Day

              Sorry, I would have told you earlier, I assumed you two had an open relationship.

          • Sunny Day

            Reading comprehension fail.
            Stupid Jerry.

          • Smig Robustus

            The pope a worthless idiot??? What does that make YOU?? He has some pull, some accomplishments….you…..not so much….but….you CAN post……lucky for u, the Internet came around….even a nobody, unaccomplished loser like you can be heard….

      • Phil

        Amen Jerry ! I have a relationship with God and I totally agree with you

  • phrankygee

    My wife and I were just talking about this guy the other day. (It must be a miracle! What are the odds?)

    I saw one of this guy’s stand-up shows when I was a wee little laddie, sometime during the Reagan Administration. My dad took me to see the show, but was upset afterward that Mike had a whole bit about a fat woman he called “large marge”. My dad is a bit portly (ok, obese), and didn’t think a “family friendly” show by Warnke should resort to making fun of fatties.

    I am pretty sure we bought one of his cassettes, but I don’t think I ever listened to it.

    • ChaplainJudi

      Did he also talk about tall Paul who is a little person and Tiny Tim who is 6’11? Did either of you bother to ask if he was actually talking about an obese person?

  • mikespeir

    I’ve been to two of his–well, presentations, I guess. I was a Christian during those times, both lots of years ago. The first was in Cheyenne, Wyoming. I remember him introducing his wife by a different name than I had read in “The Satan Seller.” But I blew it off, thinking I was just misremembering.

    Years later I attending another of his appearances at a big church in Lakeland, Florida. Only years later did I read the big Cornerstone expose. I realized Warnke’s lies and immorality had all been revealed years before I went to that last show. And yet that huge arena had been packed. To this day, I understand, he’s invited to speak at churches by pastors who will defend him tooth and nail. Such insuperably willful blindness!

    • http://camelswithhammers.com Camels With Hammers

      “Insuperably willful blindness”—-isn’t that faith in a nutshell?

      • ChaplainJudi

        Is that also what we call forgiveness? Remember Jesus said the Pharisees could minister without being a believer. The fact is Mike has touched many lives, and in eternity that is what will count.

        • 100wrongsdontmakearight

          Well, count me as unsaved thanks to Warnke’s lies. Realizing Christians don’t care about the truth was a rude awakening. BS that he’s helping the cause.

          • Blue

            I’m with you on that, 100wrongs. It took several more years before I completely “lost faith”, but Mike Warnke’s outing as a brazen, unapologetic fraud, and then CONTINUING down that same path while idiotic pastors defended his despicable behavior — it was the beginning of the end for me. That kind of BS drives more people away from Christianity than Fred Phelps ever could.

    • Relles Natas

      Thanks for the info on Warnke, even though I got here a couple of months late. You should re-post this for Halloween.

      I got to this blog after being inspired to look the fool up on Google after seeing claims in the news by Pat Robertson’s ministry that witches have been busy praying over Halloween candy so that demons will enter the candy and “possess any children who eat it. Sheesh. I guess they’ll keep it up as long as the money rolls in.

      I was reminded of Warnke by that story because I got “saved” after reading ‘The Satan Seller” myself my freshman year at college in ’77. I bought his hoax hook, line, and sinker. A couple years later, while listening to one of his records with some other Christians, I noticed something that convinced me he was lying. He slipped up and had another member of the Navy calling him “Hey hippy” in recounting one of his ‘stories’, but immediately caught himself, knowing that people would realize his hair would have had to have been short while in the service, and so he began to morph, repeating “Hey A.B, hey A.B.” several times. He then claimed he didn’t know why, but when he was in the Navy people called him A.B. It was painfully obvious to me after that point that Mike Warnke was a sham.

      Though it took a couple of years more, I finally saw through the errors and contradictions that permeate the Bible and Christianity, and got “unsaved”. Nevertheless, I still feel the man owes me five years (the time I wasted), and thousands of dollars (the money I spent on tracts, books, records, etc), not to mention my collection of Playboys, Penthouses, and rock-and-roll records which I foolishly threw away or liquidated after coming to believe they were inhabited by “Satan” thanks to this con man and others of his ilk.

      Now I read on wikipedia that even by 1977 there was already evidence of his fraud. If only there had been an internet back then, I could have checked him out, thrown away the book, and moved on. But I was a naive young man, and Warnke and other sheisters took advantage of me. I hope they all burn in hell like they tell other people they will.

      Fool me once… uh…er….you can’t get fooled again!

      Happy Halloween!!

      • ChaplainJudi

        From your reply I see you tried religion. Religion sucks! But you know what doesn’t? A real relationship with Jesus Christ. So if you come to a point and realie the emptiness in your life, try the real thing!

        • Sunny Day

          Its about the same as a relationship with Harry Potter, but there’s a lot more guilt.

          • Cucumber

            but harreh pottah can see inside my mind and then his forehead burns when I do naughty things

        • Moe

          self righteous pious bullshit pandering.

      • Johnny English

        By what I read I’ll use tough love and lay it out. You were never a real Christian. Your faith was based entirely on fear, and nothing else. “For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline. 2 Timothy 1:7″ When the fear was removed or to your mind proven false your fear based faith was also gone leaving embarrassment and anger for being hoodwinked as you saw it. Faith in GOD and JESUS is entirely based on a relationship and love. “The man answered, “You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.’ And, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. Right!” Jesus told him. “Do this and you will live!”

        • Custador

          No True Scotsman. How original.

        • Spindel

          James 4:11 NIV
          Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

          You assume this person came to christ out of fear just because he said it happened after reading the book. You assume he spent all 5 years as a christian because of fear and fear alone. I doubt that was the case. Now you dismiss his convictions that its all lies just because you don’t see what he sees? If you truly believe in christ you should aim your judgements at false teachers instead of at the people that are hurt by them.

          James 3:1 (New American Standard)
          1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

        • Spindel

          Let us also not forget
          Luke 17:2 (New American Standard)

          2 “It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.

      • http://www.houstonclownfun.com sharon

        RN, i hope you reconsider – i have been in your shoes – totally bought everything he said and so did all my friends, but i still believe in the Lord.

        After all – God did use an ASS to get some points across to Balaam, so maybe he can actually use Mike W

      • ron

        So he is human with flaws. He brags he exaggerates, he is funny as hell like so many and prone to going over the top to make the story work.. He is a doofus comedian! So much fun, we got confused and expected more..more what? Of a disciplined priest? Ya, that is flawless…and really being in the army with his hair cut off..have you ever talked to a hippy? It takes more than a hair cut to hide a hippy! lol dude. Man. hehehe whooa… And he was young and foolish…hard to grow up and see the stupid things we have done, treated people badly ..we can hold ourselves in a prison for a long time, and it takes years and maybe never before you are released from that prison of shame and guilt. Some rightfully so, sometimes it is the thing that is needed for a while to make you desire the better way of living. Even to be a Christian, it is good to have some humble pie in your life to have a better sense of what is real. Often it is the rest of the world that will never forgive a transgression or two or two too many.. so in the end, we have to live with Him alone, He becomes that one true friend that no one can take away. Not even our own self loathing. I trust He has solace , not many here would award him that.

  • http://thecheekofgod.wordpress.com/ tysdaddy

    Oh, the memories! Back in my Christian days, Mike was the shit. Read “The Satan Seller” and bought it hook, line, and sinker. Being good Christian kids, we even spent a majority of my bachelor party watching one of his videos. What joy! What fun!

    But something about him began to rub me the wrong way. And about that time, Mike Hertenstein & Jon Trott, Christians mind you, published their exquisite expose about Mike titled “Selling Satan.” More than just a book about Mike, it took a hard look at the entire Christian market and their efforts to market the Jesus Movement. This book is one of the best I’ve ever read, about any topic. If you don’t mind, I’ll include the link . . .

    http://www.amazon.com/Selling-Satan-Evangelical-Warnke-Scandal/dp/0940895072

    • phrankygee

      Your Bachelor party? Really? Dude, that is sad…

      I will see if I can get my hands on that book.

      • Yoav

        Sad indeed.
        Unless the video had some satanic orgy scenes in which case….

        • http://thecheekofgod.wordpress.com/ tysdaddy

          Sadly, no orgies. I so wish I could go back and do that one evening all over again . . .

          • http://thecheekofgod.wordpress.com/ tysdaddy

            And my apologies to the author is this post. I responded to quickly initially and didn’t notice the mention of Hertenstein & Trott. I guess a double plug ain’t bad though . . .

            Get the book . . .

    • Martin

      I went to a session he did. I was very concerned at the amount of time that was devoted to the offerring which would help save people. I have not forgotten the look of sheer greed on that man’s face. It put me off the whole evening.

  • elflocko

    I was wondering when someone was going to bring up Warnke. He was big when I was a kid (pre-expose), but I remember not feeling all that surprised when he was outed as a fraud…

    • Mogg

      I remember people being really disappointed that he turned out to be a fraud. I wonder now whether many of those people started to question the idea of satanism being widespread and dangerous. I get a feeling probably not many did.

  • http://givemesometruth.wordpress.com alastair

    One day Jesus saw Satan crying at the back of church. Full of compassion, He asked the devil: “Satan, why are you crying?”

    Satan, his face wet with tears, responded: “Your Christians!!! They blame me for EVERYTHING! When they can’t pay the bills, they blame me. When a natural disaster comes, they blame me. When their boss gives them a hard time, they blame me. For every bad thing that happens under the sun, they blame me. I feel so wrongly accused!”

    Satan’s a pretty evil dude, but the main problem is always the human one

    • Travis

      People like to say satan is pretty evil… But I have yet to read about him doing anything that would actually be considered evil. he seems more middle management, then lord of all evil when you get right down to it. He can’t even do anything without making sure to fill out the requisite forms and getting them rubber stamped by the big guy upstairs.

      • Mogg

        So, more like Phil, the Prince of Insufficient Light? Darn you to Heck!

  • elflocko

    If anyone is interested, here is the original expose that revealed the fraud:

    http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss098/sellingsatan.htm

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  • Richard Prins
  • klidov

    Sad to say, I fell for Mike Warnke’s BS hook, line, and sinker back in the early ’80′s. I actually fell for the whole “Satanic-Panic” drama. I was young enough (and naive enough) to believe that Mankind was the prize is a great tug-of-war between Satan & God.

    The problem with seeing demons (or demonic influence) in all things is…well…, you start to see demons in all things. And it makes little sense for a Christian to be focused on the work(s) of evil, till you kinda forget all about God & Jesus.

    I last saw Mike Warnke in 1989, outside of Chicago. He claimed that “…one half of all non-parental kidnappings (of children) are for use in pornography, or satanic murder”. I had allowed a lot of things to not be questioned in the name of faith, but that statement woke me up bigtime.

    Having family in law enforcement, I knew that statistic was not true. And, then I started to question all the drek from others, I believed in the name of faith. Of course, I had to get over the whole “..if you question it is because Satan does not want you to know the truth…” thing first.

    Mike Warnke did a serious disservice to real child victims and Christians. A lie told in the name of Jesus is still a lie.

    • john t

      All liars have a place in the pit of fire Mike or dont u know that ur a liar and a great disappointment but you knew that when u started the LIE.

    • ChaplainJudi

      I dont know what part of law enforcement you were in or if you are a liar yourself, but you and I both know that there are human sacrifices made by covens. Statements like that make me wonder if some of the people are part of covens trying to cover up the truth!

      • Blue

        Bullshit. Show proof or stop spreading lies.

        • ChaplainJudi

          As I responded to someone earlier in the blog who handled the question with dignity and class, I will be happy to provide facts as soon as I can find out what I am able to release.

          • JohnMWhite

            You believe it is handling yourself with dignity and class to call someone a liar because they don’t believe in extraordinary stories and don’t have access to your super secret info with all the extraordinary evidence to prove them?

            • Roger

              Oh, John, it’s called “gnosis.” See, ChaplainJudi has sooper seekrit knowledge that only her invisible sky daddy whispers in her ear…right through her tinfoil hat with Bible inscriptions on it (for better reception, of course).

          • Elemenope

            There is no such thing as secret public health, safety, and crime statistics. There are restrictions on releasing specific information about specific cases, but collated data is always available by law in US under the Freedom of Information Act.

            This is why they are justified in calling “bullshit” on your claims to access of secret statistics and evidence.

          • Sunny Day

            Shades of “Flying Monster Truck”

      • ChaplainJudi

        I am making this a “mass” response. klidov, I was not calling you a liar. For those who have accused me, reread my sentence. I said “I don’t know if you are a liar.” That says John may NOT be a liar, too! Sorry for any confusion on that.

        For those who try to get jabs in by saying I have super secret stories and statistics, they are not super secret stories, and there are trends that are not released to Joe/Jane public (I do not discriminate so lets make sure to use both names) for reasons. There is some information not open to me, but I dont resent their having “super secret statistics” because if you work with an agency you will kniow why certain inf0ormation has to remain confidential.

        I am going to take time tonight away from my recovery time and away from my family time, even time from my neighborhood who lost a member to suicide today, to locate public resources amd to find out which interagency sites are available to the public.

        I pride myself in handlling things with dignity and class, although sometimes my human side outweighs my spiritual side, so if I have not responded in a way that answered some of your thoughts but seemed to be tearing you down, I apologtize. We are to respond in the same love as Christ loved the Church.

        Thank you for listening to my thoughts, and I will continue to share them on a broader scale, since my health, family and community must come first.

        Always in His Service,
        ChaplainJudi

        • Blue

          Oh if that’s your definition of not calling someone a liar then I’m saying you may not be a child molester. You very well may not be. No confusion there I hope.

          Again put up these super secret resources you have or continue to be thought of as a liar and a braggart.

          • ChaplainJudi

            Wow, you spew out alot of hate! But I am told to love you as Christ loved the church, so I willl continue to do so.

            I will get the resources I said I would get, so calm down and give me time. I never said it was a secret. I said I need to find which sources are public and which I am allowed to take from or post a link to. I hope if you had a loved one missing you would want me to take that much care.

            I want to stay humble before God, so sir, in what way did I present myself as a braggart? It was not my intention. Could you tell me in civil language what was bragging?

            Thank you whoever showed me this was an athiest site. I had not noticed that before. But I stand behind every word I have said… it just may explain the hostility I have seen.

            • Elemenope

              The hostility you have seen is rooted to one and only one thing: you made bizarre, hateful, and fanciful claims about “covens” and abductions and human sacrifice, and then when pressed for any sort of evidence on the issue, demurred, claiming that some of the information may not be publicly accessible. To those few of us who have had the pleasure to work with law-enforcement or other government agencies on matters of public concern, or those many of us with two neurons to rub together and analyze such a claim with even the slightest critical eye, it smells of obfuscatory dissembling.

              If such a pattern actually existed, the conspiracy required to keep it from public view would have to be *massive*, well-disciplined, and motivated to do so. The notion of such a conspiracy existing stretches the bounds of credibility…no, wait, it utterly obliterates the bounds of credibility. For a scandal-hungry culture with 24-hour predatory news coverage and millions of soccer moms begging to be told to be terrified of whatever is going to prey upon their children next, if such a thing were real no secrecy rules would stop it from being public.

              Come to think about it, if it were real, and you did have access to such information, you would have a *moral* obligation to report it to the public, the law be damned. If what you say is true, you should be whistle-blowing at the top of your lungs with all the information you can find so that parents can protect their children from these wicked Halloween covens.

        • JohnMWhite

          You honestly feel the need to use someone’s suicide as a needle to jab at us for making poor you actually provide some evidence for your outlandish claims? That is reprehensible.

          • ChaplainJudi

            So let me get this straight. My sharing with you what I was also dealing with but choosing to take time to properly respond to you is using the tragedy to jab at you? Interesting!

            I will not respond to any more for several days while I take time to recover my health, assist my neighbors who want and need my encouragement, and while I gather my facts and access to the facts for those of you who honestly want to know. Some of you sound downright frightened for me to document my statement. By the way, I do shout it all year round!

            Now, how will you turn this posting into an attack or my being dishonest? You have to stretch really hard but I am sure many of you will find a way! And it will give many of you a chance to come up with an adequate response to this – but then you dont need an adequate one – just twist a few facts, ignore others and presto!

            What willl you come up with for the two days I will not visit this blog? Can’t wait to see the spin – or maybe I will be old news and you can go on hating someone else.

            • JohnMWhite

              I call you out once on your distasteful and blatant use of a tragedy to score points and you develop a persecution complex and presume that I will desperately try to spin things to make you look bad, and presume that I go about hating on people. We haven’t met, we have interacted just once before, and yet you know all this. I am impressed.

              I don’t need to spin anything, you are doing a great job yourself.

            • ChaplainJudi

              John, I was not using thisw tragedy! I simply said I was taking time from those who cared about our neighbor and others to try and answer some questions. If anyone is “using the tragedy” it is those who posted here.

              I am sorry if I misread you. I do not feel persecuted, to fact my husband and I were quite amused at the comebacks that you and others had. Bravo!

              If I have offended you or unfairly characterized what your words are saying, then forgive me. Interesting things about blogs and forums – people often draw judgements just on words alone. Thank yoyu for reminding me to be more careful about that.

              And I assume you will be doing the same about me?

      • Martin

        Chaplain Judi again with her warnings of covens…..waiting for your evidence dear

  • Terry

    It isn’t that surprising that people like Warnke,Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, etc., etc. are being exposed as having mimistries who teach false doctrine for monetary gain. Jesus warned Christians of “wolves in sheeps clothing” . The apostile Paul commended the Bereans for checking out his sermons using the Bible as the absolute authority on what Paul preached. Those who use Warnke’s false ministry as an excuse for not accepting Jesus as Savior are just as deluded as these false ministries. Jesus’ life, death, and ressurection is the standard we follow, not the failures of men who intentionally or unintentionally falsify the Word of God.

    • CGoldy

      Thank you,Terry. I was getting tired of reading everyone jumping on the bandwagon to kick someone when they’re down. I am a Christian, and not ashamed of it! You are right on! – We shouldn’t misplace our faith in humankind. Jesus is the only way. I feel sorry for these commenters who have to trash something as good and pure as Christianity. We are in this world, but NOT of this world. I believe it was Paul who preached in 1 Corinthians, “If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.” (NIV) We have the hope of glory to come. I believe in prayer, and think Mike Warnke needs our prayer as much as any man, including these other commenters.

      • Elemenope

        I feel sorry for these commenters who have to trash something as good and pure as Christianity.

        Your unwelcome pity aside, who was it that said “know a tree by its fruits”? Christianity seems quite capable of producing both good and rotten fruit in equal measure, making it exactly as special as all the other things human beings have created.

        • ChaplainJudi

          Well, dear, that was a quote from the Bible. And your comment supported it. THANK YOU! For you see, those whose fruit is pure are those who have a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ, and those whose fruit is bitter either has walked away from the Lord or never was in relationship with him to begin with. So thank you for making the point as candidly as you did, because the human religions cannot produce the same sweet fruit.

          Here is an interesting fact. If you take all the predictions of Jesus Christ found in literature other than the Bible (327 to be exact) and take any given person, the chance of 13 of those things qapplying to someone randomly are the same chance as if you stacked the state of Texas one foot deep in quarters, one marked with an x, have a parachitist decide where to jump, and their inding the quarter right away. And yet all 327 came true in Jesus. I know what a difference he made in my life, and if I am deluding myslef what a wonderful deluson. But if it is real (and it is) then those who choose not to believe will miss out on eternal life, and incredible strength prior to his return. So is Christ a Liar, a Lunatic, or God’s son?

          • wintermute

            What are these 327 prophesies that are not in the Bible? Obviously, listing them all would be overly tedious for both of us, but can you tell us which works they are in, and perhaps provide a sample dozen or so?

            Yes, it’s highly unlikely that any set of prophesies would be true of a randomly selected individual, but the odds of them matching someone, somewhere are far greater, due to the Law of Large Numbers. And if the putative subject of these prophesies is only known through the writing of people who had a vested interest in all the prophesies being true, well, I’ll let you work out the odds of that one yourself…

          • ChaplainJudi

            I never said they were not in the bible. I said they could ALSO be found in other writings. Read the book by Josh McDowell “Evidences That Demands A Verdict.” They are all listed along with proof iof their accuracy.

            • wintermute

              Don’t have that book, and don’t plan on spending money on it. From what I’ve managed to find out at the University of Google, his only source for prophecies about Jesus is the Old Testament (which I’m led to believe is part of the Bible), though I may be wrong on that. Please, dig into his citations, and name a couple of non-Biblical works that he claims contain prophecies about the coming Jesus.

              This seems to be a decent analysis, but feel free to point out the errors in it. I’m sure they’re many and obvious.

          • Roger

            I’m gonna go with “liar” and “lunatic.” If I have to choose only one, I’ll go with “lunatic.”

            • wintermute

              Personally I go with “imaginary”.

          • Spindel

            As soon as I figure out what a parachitist is and save up enough quarters to cover Texas a foot deep, then there might be a slight chance I’ll understand what any of these ramblings you are spouting has to do with any thing.

      • Roger

        Oh, yays! You’re going to pray to your imaginary sky friend for us. Loverly. I believe in rational, critical thinking, so I’ll think for you CGoldy.

        • Barney

          To all you atheists who love to spout “sceince” as a way to prove there is no creator……

          First, Christianity is NOT the only religion yet you all love to ignorantly lump and generalize everyone who believes in a creator as some sort of bible thumping evangelical nutcase….YES there are some, and they get all the media attention, but you’re trying to tell me there are NO rational, intelligent religious people? YOU are the nutcase if you believe this.

          Second…One of the most brilliant minds of our times wrote…

          “The probability of even a single microbe having formed spontaneously without no intelligent design is 10 to the power of 700 zeroes. Then when you think of how complicated physics and biology are, the probability is staggeringly ridiculous.

          It is awfully convenient tho, to believe there are no consequences and everything in existence just POOFED into being after a large explosion….LOL

    • Siberia

      Jesus warned Christians of “wolves in sheeps clothing” .

      In one of the sweetest, sweetest attempts of long-term making of excuses, ever.

    • Sunny Day

      “…falsify the Word of God.”

      The word of god tells people to kill children, rape women and makes slaves of people, or are you one of those pick and choose which part of “god’s word” you follow.

      • Dave

        Not sure the Word of God directs people to rape women. But, you are correct regarding killing men, women, and children.

      • http://www.houstonclownfun.com sharon

        The Bible is well known for recording disturbing ideas and violence – but it’s not always what it seems on the surface

        As an example – one of the psalms has a verse “Happy will they be who dashes your babies heads upon the stones! ”

        At 1st glance that seems like a song advocating violence – how could the word of God have such a terrible “song?’

        But then if you go below the surface this song is foreshadowing Jesus’ teaching about the Golden Rule – treat your neighbor as you would yourself

        The writer is in the Diaspora and the assyrian’s have brutally destroyed his family the enemy has horribly killed babies and children and more

        God may be telling us by such a terrible song that we should be very careful of harming others because there will be consequences in this life and/or the next

      • Barney

        You are just being a typical, sheeplike, atheist. This argument doesn’t even have the logic of a bowling ball.

        NOWHERE on this planet do religious people preach killing children. You are why rational, intelligent people make fun of atheists AND the religious nutsos.

  • Terry

    To Siberia,
    Your analogy of “wolves in sheeps clothing” makes no sense. We Christians do not make excuses to keep our faith real. It is not the Christians who choose to have false teachers mislead for gain, or for non-believers to invade our places of worship. You use this invasion of our faith as an excuse to show that Christianity is false. Jesus tells us not to worry about the non-Christians in the pulpits and the church. He says He will “separate the wheat from the chaff” which means He will personally remove the unbelievers from the believers. His church will then be without “spot or blemish”. Unbelievers invading our Christian faith is no different than communists covertly trying to overthrow the U.S. democracy. Is that the Americans fault?

    • Siberia

      We Christians do not make excuses to keep our faith real. It is not the Christians who choose to have false teachers mislead for gain, or for non-believers to invade our places of worship.

      Except those people are thought of as “good christians” by many and still thought so even after exposed. How many people still defend Kent Hovind as a good man, even after the tax evasion deal?

      It’s pretty damn easy to point to someone and say “no true Christian”.

  • Terry

    To Sunny Day,
    Have you ever opened a Bible? Luke 17:2- Jesus says it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. Rape women? The Ten Commandments speak about sexual purity. Make slaves of people? Jesus came to free the opressed from bondage. Come on now, you are blaspheming the Word of God. Maybe you are confusing the Koran with the Bible. Jesus says, “Know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” He goes on to say I am the “Truth”. In other words, until you know Jesus, you will never know the truth. I hope you find Him.

    • Relles Natas

      Oh boy! A “real” Christian has arrived! Just what we needed.

      I’ll reply to both of these comments of yours.

      Joshua was commanded by God to kill children. And women. And animals. Every last one of them, in I opened a Bible many times, and was a true believer for several years, but when I read that bloody episode I was sick to my stomach. What kind of god of love could order such a thing? What kind of men of god could carry such an order out? You? I think so. “So the LORD our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining. And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. And we utterly destroyed them, we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.” Deuteronomy 3:3-6

      60 cities. Every man, woman, and CHILD. See also the book of Joshua for more on this orgy of love.

      Slavery? “However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” Leviticus 25:44-46

      And why should it be the responsibility of “real” Christians’ to figure out who is and is not a “false” Christian anyway? In Acts 4 & 5, Christians were still “communists” who believed that the love of money is the ROOT of ALL evil, that it is EASIER for a CAMEL to go through the eye of a needle than for a RICH man TO ENTER the kingdom. So they sold all their possessions and had all things in common (i.e. communists), but when Ananias and Sapphira merely lied about a sum of money they were giving to the church both were struck dead. If God was so willing to strike down those merely who lied about the amount of money they were donating in “olden times”, why won’t he strike down the “chaff” and “wolves in sheeps’ clothing” like Haggard, Warnke, and the New Apostolic Reformation/Prosperity Gospel heretics who run the church now in just the same way?

      Maybe it’s because those stories, along with the rest of the “miracles” in the Bible (including Joshua’s genocide against the Canaanites mentioned above– but not, unfortunately the stories of slavery) were just “made up” and are believed by people like you who then go around spewing hatred, judgement, and threats in the name of Christ.

      I hope YOU find Christ. It would be a great archaeological discovery.

    • Sunny Day

      “Have you ever opened a Bible?”

      Have you?
      Thanks for confirming that you are one of those fundie bible-bots Terry.
      Looks like Relles Natas has the lid nailed down on your barrel of crapola.

    • http://www.houstonclownfun.com sharon

      the 1st 5 books of the Bible are the same in the Jewish ,Christian, and Muslim faiths. So Jesus is in all three – in saying He was in all the words of the Holy writings He used the words “jots and tittles” – in other words He is in every punctuation mark – the cross over every t and the dot over every i – you can’t get away from Him very easily

  • Terry

    To Roger,
    glad to hear you believe in rational and critical thinking. If so, I challenge you to read three books from a former athiest named Lee Strobel. “The Case for Christ”, “The Case For Faith”, and “The Case for Creation” . One other thing to consider: Athiesm is a moral choice, not an intellectual choice. To say “there is no God” is only saying that you choose to belive this notion about God. Without God, there couid not be a notion of His non-existence. Also, you choose to incorrectly describe God as our “imaginary sky friend”. The Christian God-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rpersonally resides in our hearts, not somewhere in the sky. The Bible states that, “unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God” This means that your natural eyes can never see or comprehend God until you accept Jesus as savior. He then gives you spiritual eyes that can see and comprehend His Word. One last thing: what do you say to the person at their deathbed? Do not fear, you have rational and critical thinking? Not much comfort in that, is there.

    • Sunny Day

      “The Christian God-Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rpersonally resides in our hearts, not somewhere in the sky.”

      Looks like John C has one of those inward dwellling god believers. Hopefully they won’t start breeding.

    • yahweh

      “Athiesm is a moral choice, not an intellectual choice”

      I know this may be shocking, but you are wrong. It was my intellect that helped me realize there is no magical sky-daddy. That is a defense mechanism that xians use to differentiate themselves from us heathens.

    • poetrini

      The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

      • yahweh

        Oh, a bible verse. You convinced me.

    • Warren

      Terry says: “Athiesm (sic) is a moral choice, not an intellectual choice. To say “there is no God” is only saying that you choose to belive (sic) this notion about God. Without God, there couid (sic) not be a notion of His non-existence.”

      This makes perfect sense, as the following demonstrates:

      Aunicornism is a moral choice, not an intellectual choice. To say “there is no such thing as a unicorn” is only saying you choose to believe this notion about unicorns. Without unicorns, there could not be a notion of their non-existance. Ergo, unicorns must exist because you don’t believe in them.

      I don’t understand therefore why anyone on this forum does not believe in god or unicorns as Terry and I have comprehensively and irrefutably proved their existence. Those of you who persist in your unbelief will go to hell with a unicorn horn up your butt. Those who think that sounds like a not totally unpleasant notion will still go to hell sans horn!

      • Martin

        I like unicorns

      • http://www.houstonclownfun.com sharon

        Unicorns have sometimes in literature represented Jesus so maybe they will not go to hell as they believe in unicorns by default LOL

    • Jasowah

      “If so, I challenge you to read three books from a former athiest named Lee Strobel. ‘The Case for Christ’, ‘The Case For Faith’”

      I’ve read them when I was a Christian. They are not convincing. They actually made me reconsider my faith and want to learn more.

      So yes, this is an excellent choice of reading for Roger. ;)

  • Terry

    To Elemenope’
    You are confusing unwelcome pity for concern. If your theology is centered around your statement, “Know a tree by its fruit”, then you can relax. That statement is not in the Bible. Saying Christianity is capable of providing both good and rotten fruit is strikingly similar to what Jesus’s enemies said about His healing people. They said He was healing people by the power of Satan, not God. Jesus replied, A house divided against itself cannot stand. If Satan casts out Satan, then his kingdom is divided. Christianity has survived because it is the power of God unto salvation. Voltaire said, “God is dead !” Now Voltaire is dead, and God is as much alive as ever. Lenin said, “religion is the opiate of the masses.” Lenin is dead, as is the USSR. You also state that Christianity was created by humans. Actually, humans were created by the Christ we worship.

    • Elemenope

      If your theology is centered around your statement, “Know a tree by its fruit”, then you can relax. That statement is not in the Bible.

      Er…Matthew 12:33, Luke 6:43-44.

      • Sunny Day

        Hilarious, and I’m supposed to be chided for not reading the bible. HA HA HA.

    • Relles Natas

      No– Marx said religion is “the opium of the people”, not Lenin. And yes, Marx might indeed also be dead, but at least I can prove he actually existed– there are diaries, photographs, University records, newspaper articles, books, letters, etc, for instance. You can’t say the same thing about god. And don’t tell me your deranged “testimony” proves that your “abstract being squatting outside the world” (see below) exists– the only thing the heart contains is muscle and blood. I think the suicide bomber’s belief in Allah’s life-changing power and 72 virgins in paradise makes as much sense as any of that.

      But go on trusting your 1,700 year old “canon”, the content of which was decided upon by the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea fully three hundred years after Christ lived. And don’t worry about the fact that the oldest existing FRAGMENTS of the New Testament date to a full hundred years after Christ, either. God wouldn’t let the scriptures be corrupted, though he apparently didn’t have a problem letting his church sink into horrible error and heresy for almost 2,000 years (if you’re a Protestant), or that this God who is supposed to be the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow changes important doctrines all the time (if you’re a Catholic).

      In any case, you clearly don’t know your modern material philosophers any better than you don’t know your Bible. But your excuse will be that the wisdom of man is foolishness to god, so you can misquote it to your heart’s content, because who cares about accuracy when you’ve got Jesus in your heart, right?

      Actually, I think old Marx (not Lenin) had you and your religion pretty well-pegged when he wrote:

      “Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d’honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion. Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.” Marx, K. 1976. Introduction to A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel’s Philosophy of Right. Collected Works, v. 3. New York

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    I am not commanded to defend the Bible. The Holy Spirit is more than qualified. You choose to deny Christ, I choose to accept Him. When I was a non-believer, my father once told me, you don’t believe the Bible as the Word of God, even though your name is in it. I asked, “If my name is in the Bible, then I will believe.” He quoted me Psalms 14:1, “The Fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God’.”

    • klidov

      “….I am not commanded to defend the Bible…”, then what exactly do you think that you are doing Terry? Relles has demonstarted the art of a very good debate/discussion. Even if a person did not agree with the information that he provides, there is no question that he has done his homework very well. Quoting the bible in an attempt to validate (a questioning of the) same said book is truly an exercise in futility.

      Your mistakes were fairly simple:

      1) Assuming there was an attack on Christianty, Christians, and/or God. This article is about a Man who abused the name of God for personal wealth. And he got caught. Bigtime. You would do better to denounce him for the fraud he is.

      2) Assuming that those who do not agree with your tiny & narrow understanding of the Bible, God, Jesus…etc…do not know scripture. Or the Bible. Or the history of the bible. Again, a serious mistake. I am arrogant enough to believe that I have forgotten more of the bible, than you have ever learned to date. (Reading Jack Chick comics does not count as bible study Terry.)

      My advice to you now Terry…? Leave now. Quietly. (Really). While you have some dignity left.

    • Spindel

      “When I was a non-believer, my father once told me, you don’t believe the Bible as the Word of God, even though your name is in it. I asked, “If my name is in the Bible, then I will believe.”

      What a STUPID reason to believe. It’s really not surprising how little sense you make.

  • Terry

    1 Corinthians, 1:18, “For the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God unto salvation.”

    • Kodie

      And so the bible sayeth: “All the cool kids are doing it!”
      And so the parent sayeth: “And so if they were all jumping off the bridge, so wouldst thou?”
      And so the bible sayeth: “I knew you wouldn’t understand, DAD! I HATE YOU! You don’t know what it’s like to be a Christian!!!!”

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    funny you claim the Christians of being Communist. The Christians in Acts gave their possessions voluntarily. Your communists forcibly take from people. The Christians in Acts gave everything they had to grow the new church Christ had just established. Your communists forcibly steal from their people in an effort to wioe out Christianity. You may want to rethink that statement.

    • Relles Natas

      Why should the church behave any differently today? Does god change? Do the scriptures change? See, you just make excuses for your disobedience. You do not carry a cross. You are not persecuted joyfully for your faith– storing up treasure in heaven. Do you turn the other cheek, or do you support legislation to make the US a Christian nation, to teach creationism in the schools, to stone homosexuals, to shoot abortion doctors? When did Christians protest the bloody circuses at the Roman colliseum? The only time Christ became violent was when he overturned the money-changers who had made his father’s house a house of iniquity. Your televangelists, Prosperity Gospel heretics, and New Apostolic Reformation false prophets have made his father’s house a house of iniquity. Where is your protest?

      Do you walk the extra mile in your life? Do you remove the log from your own eye before you try to pluck the speck from the eye of another? Or do you believe the behavior of the church is no longer required to be that of the Biblical church in Acts because you love your money too much to give it away, like the rich young man who wanted to follow Christ:

      “A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good — except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’” “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Luke 18:18-23

      That was not at the beginning of the church, was it? Perhaps you should stop preaching, hang your head, and walk away. You reject the commands of Christ. You are anti-Christ.

      Or was Paul’s warning that “… the love of money is the root of all evil!” given at the beginning of the church? No. These commands are eternal– the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow– if god is as you say he is. But you will protest that you do not “love” your money, won’t you? It is OK for a Christian to be rich today– the church is fine! It is established! Acts is history! Maybe it’s OK to be gay and have abortions then, too? After all, the poor have no needs today. The sick require no care today. Besides, you dropped some coin in the collection plate last Sunday, right? Can you imagine, when Jesus was healing the blind, sick, and lame, and feeding the poor in the filthy streets of Jerusalem that the hills surrounding the city could have been filled with mansions and chariots with bumper stickers and signs on them saying “This (fill in the blank) belongs to Jesus!”?

      Yes, I know. You will say that to love money, you would have to be willing to do anything for money, that you would have to make money the focus of your life, that it would have to be what you think of when you wake up in the morning and the last thing you think of when you go to sleep. Is this not true?

      “And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?” Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ “The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:28-31

      So, do you prove that you love your neighbor by jumping over the same high bar with which you prove you do not love money? Do you make your neighbor the focus of your life, as the dirty, filthy, ostracized– but Jesus called him good– Samaritan did on that dark road going up to Jerusalem, stopping to help his neighbor, really a bloody stranger he did not even know, lying beaten by thieves in the road when the righteous priest and levite had already passed by with their excuses? He bound the man’s wounds, took him to an inn, gave the innkeeper money, and told him that when he passed through again he would pay whatever else was owed. “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[ but have not love, I gain nothing. I Corinthians 13

      Is loving your neighbor the first thing you think about when you wake up, and the last thing you think about when you go to sleep? Do you bind his wounds, pay his hospital bills (socialism!), feed him, clother him– or are you just a “clanging cymbal”? And do you know that the homosexual, the abortion doctor, the communist, atheist, prostitute, thief, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, alcoholic and drug addict are your neighbors? How can you possibly keep anything for yourself when you have so many neighbors to feed, clothe, and wash the feet of? You have been commanded to lay down your life. Why, then, are you still alive?

      Or do you have more than one standard for living the love which Chriat commanded you to live?

      • poetrini

        Wow! That was intense and exactly what I would have said had I the eloquence. This is truly the standard Jesus meant for us to live by, yes. But, alas, we are all human and all fall short…no matter how hard we try or how well-meaning we are. Wish I could recreate that sermon at youth group on Wednesday night. Bravo!

      • Cucumber

        Your posts are epic. I can *feel* your passionate frustration. Every Christian should be responding to these questions, except they can’t.

  • Terry

    to Sunnyday,
    if you are offended by goodness, mercy, and love being in the Christian heart, what is in yours?

    • Sunny Day

      Wrong again dumbo. I’m offended by people who worship mythical creatures while those poor deluded fools proclaim they are the holders of some sort of truth only they can see.

    • ChaplainJudi

      Hi, Terry. Nice to meet you on the blog. Did you and your wife know that some of the readers think we are married? HAHAHAHAHA! My husband found it amusing to.

      I considered responding to the posting above yours, but I get the feeling that because they had made up their minds on their opinions they did not want to be confused with the facts.

      But I edo turn the other cheek, walk the extra ten miles needed, speak out aganst violence in the name of Jesus, stand up for those who are falsely accused even if it is is situation the churches may find distasteful, love people many churches amnd christians would reject, speak kindly to those who persecute in the name of “anti-Jesus”…

      Well, it wouldnt really matter, because I am “deluded” by my fauith… and proud of it.

  • Terry

    to CGoldie,
    nice response. We must continue to witness to haters of Christ with the Word of God. We may be the only people they will ever hear concerning the need for salvation. Remember, two things always happen when people are told about the gospel of Christ: they accept and give their lives to Jesus, or they openly attack us while in their denials. When they attack us, they are really attacking Christ. We know that the seeds we sew do not always grow overnight. We can only pray that these seeds we sow will eventually lead them to the saving knowledge of Jesus. Their nasty responses are a good thing. They are starting to think. I used to do the same thing.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    Thank you for the correction. It is the first thing you have said tonight that is true. In all honesty, it has been a long time since I have read any of Marx and Lenin’s crap. I try not to spend too much time reading anti-Christian material. You learn to spot a counterfeit dollar studying the real one, not the fake. You do seem to have a lot of knowledge. So did the Apostle Paul. He attacked Christians as fervently as you do. Maybe someday you will have the same personal encounter with Christ that Paul did. A man with the deep convictions that you possess could do a lot for Jesus. Our dialogue cannot be by chance. I don’t believe in chance when it comes to talking to someone about Christ. We are tripartheid beings…body, soul, and spirit. I hope you find the spirit, only God can give that one to you. You certainly have the body and soul part down…I’m on your side.

    • Jabster

      “In all honesty, it has been a long time since I have read any of Marx and Lenin’s crap.”

      A long time as in never at all?

      • Custador

        Beat me to it. The fact that he can’t differentiate between Marxism and Communism is, as always, a dead giveaway that he’s spouting fountains of fragrant bullshit.

        • Jabster

          A Christian lying … who would have thought it?

    • Francesc

      “Our dialogue cannot be by chance. I don’t believe in chance when it comes to talking to someone about Christ”
      Yeah, it must be destiny!!
      Do you aknowledge the absurdity of such an assertion?

  • Terry

    One last thing, there is much more historical evidence that Jesus was alive on planet earth than Ol’ Karl. Read Lee Strobels books, “The Case For Christ, and “The Case For The Real Jesus”. Strobel was a confirmed athiest before his research on Jesus. Try books from Richard Wurmbrand. His books made Jesus come alive in my spiritual heart…not the one with muscle, arteries, and veins.

    • Jabster

      He was a confirmed atheist you say – well the Christian god must exist then! Oh hang on aren’t there confirmed Christians who became atheists meaning god doesn’t exist or what about confirmed Christians who became Muslim, does that mean Allah exists?

      • Custador

        Don’t be silly! That’s like saying that TrueChristians ™ can do evil things! Obviously the two are mutually exclusive and it only works one way! Sill Jabster!

    • yahweh

      “One last thing…”
      We can all only hope it is your last thing.

    • Sunny Day

      Argument from authority fail.

    • Question-I-Thority

      Terry: I’ve sat here reading through the comments trying to think of a way to respond that might help you understand atheists. I don’t think you’ve had much dialogue with such. Calling us “Christ haters” isn’t a good start. Perhaps you might want to step out of witness mode and actually listen a bit more. You could start by reflecting on Yahweh’s apparent immorality exhibited throughout the Old Testament as pointed out by Relles Natas.

    • poetrini

      I believe Josh McDowell was another who became a Christian while trying to disprove Christianity…read More Than A Carpenter.

      • JohnMWhite

        See what Jabster said above. Plenty of people have changed their minds in either direction, and do so on all sorts of subjects.

  • Terry

    Elemenope,
    you said, “know a tree by its fruit .” This is not in its proper context you were using when you said Christians produce both good and bad fruit. That context is not in the Bible. What the Bible really says is,”either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; FOR A TREE IS KNOWN BY ITS FRUIT.” As usual, you Christ haters pervert scripture to try and make a non-scriptural point. Therefore my statement was correct by infoeming you that “know a tree by its fruit is not in the Bible. But you knew that.

    • yahweh

      “As usual, you Christ haters pervert scripture”

      Hard to hate someone that did not exist as described in the bible. It’s like syaing I hate unicorns because they don’t exist. No, I just say they don’t exist. I don’t hate them.

    • Jabster

      … er no Terry, you were caught out by Elem and you’re now back tracking to try and claim that you are right. Isn’t lying considered a sin or is it ok if it’s lying for Jebus?

    • Elemenope

      This is not in its proper context you were using when you said Christians produce both good and bad fruit. That context is not in the Bible. What the Bible really says is,”either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; FOR A TREE IS KNOWN BY ITS FRUIT.”

      Pretty much every ancient school of ethical pedagogy belonged to what today we call Virtue Ethics; teaching about character and excellence by focusing on the individual, training the moral actor to make better choices through practice and providing tools or rules of thumb to help in situational determinations.

      Jesus was no exception to this, and the Bible makes clear this was his style (and with good reason; neither the Jews nor the Hellenic Romans would have understood a different approach). In Matthew 7:15-20, Jesus is teaching his students a rule of thumb: good things tend to have good consequences, bad things tend to produce bad effects. In the particular case, the subject is prophets, and how to tell the ones sent by God from false ones.

      It would have struck his audience as outright bizarre your notion that Jesus intends this rule of thumb be used only when considering prophets. It is, rather, an ethical tool to be used by mature moral agents in a wide variety of circumstances *including* the one Jesus illustrated in the passage. What is remarkable and notable in this particular instance is only that Jesus is taking the radical step of introducing an empirical consequentialist rubric to be applied by people making determinations in a religious context.

      Your obsession with literal restriction of context reminds me just a little of people who read Animal Farm and then complain about the fact that animals shouldn’t talk. Context isn’t merely what sentences surround the passage at issue, but also an awareness of what audience the original was addressed toward and particularly in what way that audience would have understood what was being said.

      • poetrini

        I thought the “tree by it’s fruit” thing was referring to how to tell if someone truly has a relationship with Christ…. If they say they are a “Christian” but do not display the fruits of the Spirit – love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, self-control, kindness, goodness, faithfulness – then they probably are deceiving people or being deceived themselves and need to reexamine their heart.

        • klidov

          love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, self-control, kindness, goodness, faithfulness are not traits exclusive to Christians.

          (However, tolerance, compassion, and acceptance may be exclusive to non-judgemental, non-religious extremists).

          just sayin’

  • Terry

    Jabster
    believe what you want. The only defense you have shown so far is attacking a Christians credibility so your false beliefs may seem credible to yourself. I quote God’s Word for the basis of trying to show you non-believers there is a God who wants you to have eternal life with Him. You only give opinions without any source of fact. You say I have never read anything on Marx or Lenin. I invite you to read “Marx and Satan” by Richard Wurmbrand. You would discover that Marx began his life in a God-fearinf family. It is documented that he was once a Christian.His first written work is called “The Union of the Faithful with Christ. In this he states, “Through love of Christ we turn our hearts at the same time toward our brethren who are inwardly bound to us and for whom He gave Himself in sacrifice.” Later, after he renounced his faith, he complained of being out of food, and not having any trousers to put on so he could get food if he had the money. Obviously, Marx and his followers’ lives had deteriorated to the point of a faith needing trousers.

    • Kodie

      Marx and his followers’ lives had deteriorated to the point of a faith needing trousers.

      That is the weirdest sentence I’ve read in a long time, to say nothing of the logical leaps you’ve taken.

      • Jabster

        Way to go Terry is the qoute in the Bible or not?

    • Paul

      I don’t see what Marx’s change of opinion has to do with your argument… Plenty of people, theists of all types and atheists alike, are all perfectly capable of changing their opinion about the universe without it establishing an truth. Furthermore, you do not tell us anything regarding how that change affected him. I could decide to stop eating junk food and get sick a month later. Therefore, by your logic, this scenario would imply that junk food is obviously necessary to maintaining a healthy body. It seems far more likely that the two are unrelated, or that he was shunned by his christian community for renouncing his beliefs and couldn’t find work.

    • poetrini

      Saying someone was “once a Christian” makes no sense unless you are strickly talking about their religion/group affiliation. If you mean all the groups, religions and affiliations classified as Christian, then, okay. But to say someone was once a born-again, child of God and now are no longer that…just doesn’t make any sense to me! If you will renounce God then you just were never actually a Christian (Christ-follower) to begin with!

      • Custador

        Oh, do fuck off. Changing one’s opinion does not magically send bad-vibes back in time and alter the past. There are many, many people on this site who were as devout as you are and more so who are now atheists. Your inability to accept that is peurile, childish, offensive bullshit – and I should know, I’m expert in all of those things.

        • Jabster

          “… is peurile, childish, offensive bullshit – and I should know, I’m expert in all of those things.”

          Can’t say I’ve noticed ;-)

          • Custador

            Well, when compared to a master of the arts one will always fall short ;-)

            • Jabster

              I’ve always thought that they were very under rated attributes!

        • John C

          Its a contradiction to deny now that you ever knew someone that you once claimed that you knew but now say that you don’t, get it? If you (ever) knew, you know but since you dont, you don’t.

          But you can.

          • Elemenope

            You hear a sound of a knock at the door. You say to the person next to you “there is a person at our door!”, but when you go to answer it, it turns out that there is nobody there. Your ears deceived you.

            If you were asked before you got to the door if you knew there was a person at the door, you would probably say ‘yes’. After you got to the door and realized there was nobody there, if you were asked if you know now there never was a person at the door, you would probably also say ‘yes’. There is no contradiction.

            • John C

              There is only belief or unbelief, no contradiction.

            • Custador

              How many children have you met with imaginary friends who they were convinced were real? I’ve met dozens. I know a few who’ve grown into adults – and none of them still has their imaginary friend.

              The subtext here, in case you weren’t getting it: Grow up, John.

            • John C

              Grow down Custy! :)

            • Jabster

              @Custador

              John C imagines that you’re his friend … does that count?

            • John C

              I think very highly of everyone here, of each of you. Love always thinks the best, the highest. And while I care very much for all you guys, I am under no illusion that that same concern is returned toward me, still that changes nothing.

            • JohnMWhite

              “Grow down Custy!”

              With a dry-cool wit like that, he could be an action hero…

              JohnC, you’re not making any effort here at all. Your god probably wouldn’t be pleased if you didn’t at least try to counteract the points raised.

            • Jabster

              @John C

              “I think very highly of everyone here, …”

              If this is how you treat people who you think highly of (by ignoring what they are saying and just saying what you want to say) then how do you treat people who you don’t think highly of?

      • Jabster

        “But to say someone was once a born-again, child of God and now are no longer that…just doesn’t make any sense to me!”

        So if it doesn’t make sense to you, then it doesn’t count then. All of the ex-Christians on this site weren’t True Christians ™ even though they thought they were because you say so?

        • poetrini

          No. Not at all. I guess I just don’t understand what people mean when they say “Christian”. I suppose if you can choose to become a believer, you can also choose to no longer believe. Yes? I am so confused.

          • Elemenope

            I suppose if you can choose to become a believer, you can also choose to no longer believe. Yes?

            Yes.

          • Jabster

            “No. Not at all.” … really?

            “If you will renounce God then you just were never actually a Christian (Christ-follower) to begin with!”

            So what exactly did you mean by the above if you weren’t claiming that they weren’t True Christians ™ in the first place and as a secondary question why do you think that your version of what it means to be a True Christian ™ holds any more weight than what other people believe?

    • Custador

      Hey Terry, do you believe everything you see written down? I’m betting no. So why do you believe the fairy tales of a bunch of desert nomads from thousands of years ago?

  • Terry

    yahweh,
    interesting name for a non-believer. Your intellect showed you there is no sky daddy? Try 1 Cor. 1 :18, “For it is written, ‘I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent, I will frustrate.” Romans 1: 21, “because although they knew Goid, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools. This nis what happened to Marx and others that were once Christians and later choose to deny Him. I will tell you the same thing as I told Roger: what do you say to comfort the dying on their deathbed, “Fear not, because I have intelligence?”

    • Daniel Florien

      I hope you’re not suggesting yahweh was god’s actual name. We all know around here it was yahoowahoo. If you don’t believe that, then repent from ye darkened heart of darkness!!!

    • yahweh

      “what do you say to comfort the dying on their deathbed, “Fear not, because I have intelligence?”

      Since you asked, when I was comforting my mother as she was dying, I held her hand and told her that everyone she loved was with her. I told her that I loved her and told her it was okay for her to let go. She quietly stopped breathing and slipped away.
      That is one of my most cherished memories in my life.

      By the way, the name….it’s called sarcasm.

      • MissDid

        “By the way, the name….it’s called sarcasm.”

        ROTFLMBO! Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! Hooooooo, haaaaaaaaaaa! Ooooohhhhh ho ho ho ho ho hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! OMG I think I peed a little….

  • Terry

    Paul,
    this is the same logic most non-believers use: personal opinion without fact to back up anything you say. Then, when you are confronted by fact, you are offended. Lenin couldn’t find work because the Christion community shunned him for renouncing his beliefs? A great piece of fiction based on no historical fact. Still, that is preferable for non-believers to believe, and to ignore all the historical evidence that Jesus was in fact a historical figure who met all the prophetical requirements necessary to prove He in fact was God Incarnate who in fact rose from the dead.

    • Relles Natas

      There you go again mixing up Marx and Lenin into one person.

      Look, I got 4.0 grades on over 60 hours of history. I developed health problems and couldn’t finish my thesis or I’d have a PhD. Excluding all the other courses in history and philosophy I took which covered Marx, I also aced two classes along the way called “Marx: Theory and Praxis” and “The Philosophy of Marxism”. I can tell you right now you don’t know a thing about Marx OR Lenin even though you keep mixing them together. You shouldn’t even have mentioned them but you were trying to show off by throwing out a line to make yourself look smart, but I’m sure not impressed.

      Everything you’ve said about Lenin (er, Marx) is a lie. I could throw out a small paper here showing how you know nothing about how Jews had to act in Germany at the time of Marx– how you couldn’t get a decent job if you weren’t a Lutheran. How many of them “assimilated”, and gave up their Jewishness in hopes of being accepted by the Christians (Protestant and Catholic alike) Maybe you’ve heard that as late as 100 years later, even such assimilated Jews were rounded up in that same region– in fact from all over Europe, parts of Asia, and North Africa and sent to concentration camps and gas chambers as sub-humans by the Nazis. But why should I assume you know anything about the 20th century Holocaust committed against the Jews when you don’t even know about the second millennium BC holocaust committed by the Jews against the men, women, and children of Canaan when it’s in your “holy” book?

      So Marx’s father (the family was descended from a long line of very wise and well known rabbis stretching back hundreds of years in the region) converted to Lutheranism so he could get a job and “get ahead”. It worked. He became a minor bureaucrat in the government. He hoped his son Karl would use the money he got to go to University to study law– but he was more interested in philosophy, especially the German giant Georg Hegel. Marx was never a Christian. He experienced far more persecution from the government and mobs than you’ve ever experienced for being a Christian, and Jesus promised his followers they would be persecuted. And yes, he was poor, as Jews and many Christians have been poor when they were persecuted by Caesars, Emperors, Popes, and the whole spectrum of fanatical witch-hunters in general (you know, kind of like Mike Warnke here).

      Secret police harrassed Marx constantly. Publishers of newspapers and books were blackballed if they printed his words. His wife Jenny came from a minor Prussion noble family and had a little money but it didn’t last long. His good friend Friedrich Engels worked for his father who was a wealthy industrialist in Manchester (I believe, but it’s been awhile— all this is off the top of my head) and he was able to help Marx from time to time as well as collaborate with him in his writing. Eventually Marx ended up in London where he wrote most of his major works after ‘The Communist Manifesto’. He had several children, some of whom died. Read ‘A Christmas Carol’ by Charles Dickens to get an idea of what life was like for the average person in London at that time. TB was rampant. So were Cholera and Typhus. “Have we no workhouses? Have we no prisons?” Were the likes of Tiny Tim cursed by your god, too?

      So listen, Terry. Why don’t you just quit while you’re ahead? Multiple people here have proven that you’re a know-nothing, and that’s putting it mildly. I proved to that your god commanded men, women, and children to be killed and sanctioned slavery. You said I lied. Read your Bible. Stick with it, and maybe someday you might master it, but I’d stay away from history and philosophy and anything else that doesn’t count faith as a 100% 4.0 GPA if I were you.

      • Sunny Day

        Don’t go confusing Terry with facts. He knows what he knows and that’s all there is to it.

  • Terry

    Daniel, we all know around here that God’s real name is yahoowahoo? Another opinion from a non-believer not based on fact. Obviously you do not fear the Lord or the coming judgement. Not yet.
    Philipians 2:10 says, “at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    The key here is EVERY. That means those who believe, and those who did not believe that Jesus Christ is Lord while on earth. Those that believed while alive confess that He is Lord, entering eternal life with Him. Those that did not believe confess that He is Lord, and enter into eternal damnation.
    Revelation 15-17 says, “Then the kings of the earth, the princess, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and amoung the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks,”Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!” yahweh thinks he is cool blaspheming God’s name in vain. Maybe both you and he can hide under the same rock.

    • Elemenope

      It’s not blasphemy, it’s vowel replacement. Surely you know that Ancient Hebrew was written with no vowels and no diacritics. The diacritics weer added later as a *best guess* for the vowel sounds, but the true pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton which stands in place of the Name of God has been lost. It is only slightly less likely, all things considered, that it is “Yahoowahoo” than it is “Yahweh”.

      But being the Biblical scholar you are, surely you knew that already.

      • yahweh

        My spellcheck does not accept yahoowahoo, hence yahweh.

    • Kodie

      The key here is EVERY.

      Do you think that we should feel threatened because the book of Terry says so?

      • klidov

        ummm…no :)

    • yahweh

      Daniel, it would be an honor to hide under the same rock with you. I’ll bring the vodka.

      • LRA

        woohoo! I’ll bring the orange juice! And chicken salad. It’s not a proper armageddon without chicken salad.

        • yahweh

          Bring some bloody mary mix too please? I hope it is a big rock.

    • Yoav

      ”Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!”
      You know lambs are small fluffy and yummy, not the most terrifying of animals.
      How about we all meet under a rock and BBQ us some lamb over the fires of hell as the world ends.

  • Terry

    Relles, I am impressed with your self-proclaimed genius. You are the only person that ever had a 4.0 in 60 hrs. of history. I won’t tell my wife. She only has a double masters degree, and taught history before becoming an administrator. You claim multiple people have proved me wrong. The only errors have been by accidentally typing in Lenin for Marx-my bad, but everyone knows exactly what I was saying. My comments, other than Lenin/Marx have mostly come from scripture. I tried to keep opinions based on fact as responses. Here are most of the responses that you say defeated my responses: Jabster-assumes I have never read Lenin. He says I am lying. He has no facts to back his opinion. SunnyDay-offended by people who worship mythical creations, calling us (Christians) fools. She also stated she was glad to know I am a fundie, bible bots…great facts, huh? Daniel and the so-called yahweh responded by blaspheming God…another great retort.yahweh’s elevated intelligence showed him there is no god…he didn’t need facts, his intelligence is far greater than facts. Daniel did not reveal his secret in claiming there is no god. Klidov, said I didn’t know the Bible..his personal opinion without factst to support his opinion. Enelope gave me a personal lesson on Bible interpretation. These folks could do do a Budweiser commercial:”Real Men of Genius-God Haters who debate using contrived insults as facts.” And now I will finish my response to you. You state that you was a true believer until you read Deut. 3:3-6, etc. Here is my response to you based on Biblical fact: You have elevated your self-proclaimed intelligence above God’s. Job 38: Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Verse 4-7:Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you understand.Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone-while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? Read through Chapter 41 for more. Next, your omniscient compassion gives you the right to hate God for his commandment to joshua, without even pretending to care as to why God gave the commandment. Scholars agree that the Canaanites were so deep into false gods and immorality that God felt it necessary to eliminate everyone including animals so they could not corrupt His people. Even so, I personally don’t have the problem of judging God’s actions. He is God, I am not. Next, you feel that scripture must be corrupt since Constatine and the council at Nicea was held 300 years after the life of Christ? The texts that were not admitted into sacred text was based on the fact they were not written within the first century or they contained opinion without verification. They did not change the texts, but verified them. Something you and your deluded friends here need to learn. The New Testament material on Jesus’s resurrection was written between two and seventy years after the event and corroborated between 27 and 70 years later. The Qur’an is fifth hand testimony. Since Muhammad was illiterate, he passed it along to others. The Qur’anic revelations were not collected into a single volume until fourteen to twenty years after Muhammads death, and corroborated at least 200 years later. Historically speaking, the New Testament accounts of Jesus have a much higher quality to them than the Qur’an has concerning the message it provides.Yet no one here questions whether Mohammed actually existed, or the validity of the Qur’an. You seem to think I do not give money to the church without knowing my years of service and commitment-monetarily or position wise. You are anti-God, but call me anti-christ. You confuse works with faith,as if works are more important. Good luck to you and all your anti-god friends. I leave with these final words from scripture, Matt.7:6, Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do,they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.Matt. 10:14, If anyone will not listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. Until eternity, and the true judgment..

    • Nzo

      I won’t tell my wife. She only has a double masters degree, and taught history before becoming an administrator.

      Unsubstantiated claim.

      My comments, other than Lenin/Marx have mostly come from scripture.

      Denotes lack of intelligence when on an atheist forum.

      Jabster-assumes I have never read Lenin. He says I am lying. He has no facts to back his opinion.

      And you have none to support your claim that you are not lying.

      SunnyDay-offended by people who worship mythical creations, calling us (Christians) fools.

      Your mythical creation caused fools to be put into positions of power resulting in the commonly-known “dark ages”. Do you disagree, fool?

    • Relles Natas

      And so, right on cue– Terry shakes the dust of this evil thread off of his feet, and having consigned us all to the rocky refuge of fear and/or the fires of hell, moves on– albeit with one last flurry of threats and proclaiming hope that we will all, somehow, someday find the truth.

      I will, however, openly acknowledge that it gives me no pleasure to engage a true believer such as Terry thusly. I see so much of my former self in him. For one thing, I don’t think I was ever as lonely in my entire life as I was during those nearly five years I spent (wasted) as a born-again Christian– though I truly believed the entire time that the Creator of the Universe lived in my heart, just as Terry does now. I think a lot of Christian proselytizing is born of that same loneliness.

      And when I was ultimately forced to begin acknowledging that I could no longer easily explain away the growing body of Biblical contradictions, outright errors, and shocking teachings (and those verses describing the blood-letting “god” unleashed upon the Canaanites are only the tip of the iceberg) which were accumulating in my mind as a result of my diligent study of “The Word”– finally making the decision to leave the faith was one of the most emotionally painful things I ever had to go through. I truly would not wish it upon anyone else. I do not relish overturning anyone’s faith. I just want to force them to own it– to really be aware of what belief in the Bible, or the Koran, or the Book of Mormon entails– and to make others who might be listening aware of what “owning it” entails also. I wish someone like me had been there for me in 1977. But it’s been almost thirty years since I “corrected” my mistake now, half a lifetime, but still some scars remain on my “heart” from the pain I went through. And yet inevitably the first words out of the mouth of a person like Terry are always that “you just don’t know the Word of God” or “you have rejected the truth out of willful wickedness”. Bah. I saw too many games from inside that stadium. I was in that game myself too long– and I spoke the exact same words thousands of times to others. I will never walk so blindly again.

      I really don’t dislike or hate people like Terry. I actually pity them. In fact, I might even say that I forgive them, for they know not what they do. I myself paid a huge cost personally “for Christ”. First, I lost all my childhood friends right out of high school because I preached those friendships “to death”. Then I missed many opportunities for friendships with all the good people I met during my Christian days because I was only concerned about getting them “saved”. I sold all my possessions, spent a fortune on tracts and other aspects of “ministry”, was pushed around and beaten up a few times while preaching on street corners and trying to witness, almost got knifed in a bus station restroom in Harrisburg, PA for trying to share my testimony with a gang-banger who tried to sell me drugs, and then to top it all off I lost all my Christian friends when I finally left the church. Shazam. I wonder what his “words” in the service of Christ have cost Terry?

      No, I can honestly say that I take no joy in battling this kind of “true believer”. It’s too bad, for one thing, that they are unwilling or unable to just let their lives speak the truth of the gospel FOR them, so that they would not have to talk it instead of walk it. You would think that with all the joy, happiness, contentedness, and over-coming power that they exude which emanates directly from the Creator dwelling in their hearts that it would be an easy thing to bring unbelievers into the fold without the need for so much preaching, judging, and condemnation of the unwilling to hell fire before turning tail and running.

      But that doesn’t bother me either. What bothers me is that of late they have taken to calling for making the United States into a “Christian Nation”, whatever that means. There is no precedent in either the New Testament or the Constitution for such a thing. I can understand a “Nation of Christians”– perhaps– but not the other. And this is the primary reason why I now battle against Christian fanatics like Terry– not to overturn their faith but to oppose what I inevitably find to be their “Christian politics”, otherwise known as “Dominionism”. I NEVER believed a “Christian State” was possible when I was a believer. In fact, I would have called it heresy. But these dupes today have clearly forgotten (or more likely never knew) about such minor incidents as the Salem Witch Trials, which were walks in the park compared to the bloody CENTURIES of HOLY WAR which preceded them between the Protestants and the Catholics, or between the Catholics and the Orthodox, or the 2,000 year persecution of the Jews by Christendom, or the wars with Islam (oh wait, that one’s still on) in which millions of people died, had their homes destroyed, and their lands laid waste in the name of god, using Joshua’s example in Canaan, because as Terry finally admits– dirty, filthy, immoral, unbelievers can be killed down to the last child, just as 138 years ago before an attack on a Shoshone village a California militia Colonel named Patrick Edward Connor gave his infantry and cavalry of over two hundred orders to “take no prisoners and remember nits grow into lice”.

      For these reasons our founding fathers placed the separation between church and state firmly into the Constitution via the First Amendment. Some of them, and certainly their fathers and grandfathers remembered Salem. But if these latter day Christian Nationalists win, that amendment will mean nothing to them, and they will hurl us OVERNIGHT back into those bloody days of Medieval insanity which preceded the Enlightenment and the rise of modern, liberal democracies where all citizens are theoretically equal under the law regardless of religion, race, or creed. Under the rule of the Christian Nationalist, unbelievers and heretics would once again be subject to torture and execution by humans (albeit GOD’S humans), here on earth, as they were during the Inquisition instead of just being preached to and harassed with words, allowed to be blissfully ignorant of that terrible day when we all will be punished by god in hell– which really should be sufficient to make even the most sin-frustrated religious fanatic like Terry happy, right?

      And I don’t hate Christ either. The Christ that I have been able to extract from the New Testament, from archaeology, from history, and from my study of comparative religion (see especially ‘Excavating Jesus’ by Crossan and Reed as an excellent history of first century Palestine and the contextual environment in which Christianity arose) is actually a very attractive figure to me. You might even say I follow him as best I can, except I don’t believe in any supernatural mumbo jumbo. I find his teachings– against the immoral and filthy rich, religious hypocrites, and selfish behavior in general, as well as his teachings about how to truly love, practice charity, cooperate, give of oneself, forgive, and be lenient towards non-rich/religious “sinners” (like thieves, prostitutes, tax collectors, and Samaritans) and doing all things only after asking ourselves whether we would have such things done to ourselves– to be the brilliant ideas of a great, moral revolutionary, who was killed because of the threat he posed to the powers that be.

      Had he wanted a “Christian” nation– and if he was who Christians believe he was, he could have rubbed out Caesar, all his armies, along with the scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees with his little finger– he would have had it. But instead he told his followers they were to be in the world but not of it. He spoke of rendering things unto Caesar and things unto God– separating church and state HIMSELF. He promised a CROSS to everyone who followed him (that means death, Terry). He promised POVERTY and PERSECUTION to everyone who followed him too. He commanded his followers to leave this world while they were still in it and join his kingdom, willing to die in the service of that kingdom, to be as salt in the earth which even in tiny amounts will preserve a thing and keep it from rot. He taught his followers to fight Rome not with a worldly government, or knives, or swords but by turning the other cheek, walking the extra mile, laying down your life if need be, and by so doing heap burning coals on the heads of those who would persecute such a beautiful philosophy, and bring them into the “kingdom” by deed more than by word– so that even as individual sparks were lost to the darkness of death, nevertheless the “flame” he started would burn on forever.

      Unfortunately, it appears that the human race is unable to resist the urge to turn even such beautiful teachings as these– centered as they are on the rule that you are to set about removing the log jam in your own eye before even thinking about trying to get that splinter out of your brother’s eye– into just another set of hypocritical religious rules chiseled in stone whereby some are to be included in the “in-group” while the rest are to be excluded under sentence of eternal damnation in hell’s fire and brimstone, weeping and gnashing their teeth.

      • BillZBub

        that was beautiful, man.

    • Nzo

      Daniel and the so-called yahweh responded by blaspheming God

      Again, you’re on an atheist forum. Blasphemy here is not finishing a delicious plate of His holy noodles and meatballs. Blasphemy is pretending to be intelligent while holding bronze-age, mythical beliefs to a higher standard than facts. Blasphemy is talking on a cell phone and pretending scientists are the bad guys with an anti-religious agenda. Need I go on?

      Klidov, said I didn’t know the Bible..his personal opinion without factst to support his opinion.

      Truth. You don’t know it well enough to know that it’s a work of fiction. It really doesn’t matter how much scripture you can spout at any given time. The book is a medley of rape, theft, murder, and genocide.

      Enelope gave me a personal lesson on Bible interpretation. These folks could do do a Budweiser commercial:”Real Men of Genius-God Haters who debate using contrived insults as facts.”

      Funny, I was thinking you could do one called “Real Men of pretending to know things you have no clue about, and using tribal scribblings as the cornerstone for every life choice you make.”

      You state that you was a true believer until you read Deut. 3:3-6, etc. Here is my response to you based on Biblical fact: You have elevated your self-proclaimed intelligence above God’s.

      Ebonics? Too easy. Tell me, what exactly makes your judgment of Relles a biblical fact? I thought judgment was against the rules for you people? Did the word “fact” change definition while I wasn’t looking? Does the fact that Relles does not believe in a god mean your entire argument is invalid? Yeah, looks like you’d win the St. Jude award for that argument already. The rest of your rant looks like something a crazy lady on the sidewalk would shout at you, before telling you you’re going to hell. But hey, since that format seems to be working so well for you, please continue!

      • Jabster

        “The rest of your rant looks like something a crazy lady on the sidewalk would shout at you, before telling you you’re going to hell. But hey, since that format seems to be working so well for you, please continue!”

        Well as they say, god works in mysterious ways …

    • poetrini

      Terry-
      Amen Brother!

  • Jabster

    “Jabster-assumes I have never read Lenin. He says I am lying. He has no facts to back his opinion.”

    If you had read Marx and Lenin as you calaimed you have, then you wouldn’t have made such an elementary mistake. On the grounds that you did, yes I do think you’re a liar and nothing you have posted so far would lead me to conclude differently.

  • cathy

    *sigh*

    Terry, I am a Woman. The Valedictorian of my class, to be specific. (4.0 GPA). True, my major was Nursing (with a seperate Psych degree), but that is beside the point.

  • Pingback: Those who believe in Universal reconciliation - Christianity - Page 2 - City-Data Forum

  • ChaplainJudi

    OK, here is one for all of you who seem to be an expert on the Bible being false and all Christians livinf a delusion:

    My pastor met a young man who desperately wanted the Word of God taught at his village in the african jungles. He was unsure if he could find his village, but after years met another who has lived there. The three of them agreed to go and try to find the village. Allied with pack mules and bushwackers, they made trails to where they thought the village was. After three weeks they arrived. As they entered the village, a woman came running from the huts. She fell at the pastors feet and said “the one I have worshiped is in you.” No people from “civilized” areas had ever attempted to reach the village, yet she recognized the one she worshiped in my pastor. How?
    By that evening, they had answered the basic questions of those who had the inner desire to follow Christ.

    I am sorry if any of my previous posts were offesive to anyone. You all did good, you pulled me in to your witch-hunt – but wait! For there to be a witch-hunt you must have two sides – good and evil!
    Recently I was invited to comment on a blog where I said “Excuse me for giving facts to those who have made up their opinions!” So for each of you who tried to bring us down, sorry, we are standing on a solid rock. For those others of you they tried to draw into their web, free yourselves in Jesus name and move on to those who want the truth. These people will know soon enough if we have been delusuional or real. They will still have a very short time to come to him on their own without the holy spirit, and they will refer back to what we said. In the meantime, lets pray daily for them!

    • Francesc

      “So for each of you who tried to bring us down, sorry, we are standing on a solid rock”
      Your solid rock is the tale of your pastor? Is he alike Mike?
      “Journalists Jon Trott and Mike Hertenstein ran some background checks and Warnke’s story tumbled like a house of cards”
      Why do you still believe him? Is it because what he says matches with your prejudices, or is it the other way around?

      Judi, I know what it would take to make me a believer: a solid proof of any god’s existence. Why would take you to deconvert?

      • ChaplainJudi

        FrancesC,

        Obviously you are not versed in Christianity, because unlike other religions, our Savious, Jesus Christ, was God become Man, part of the holy trinity. Other Religions (not relationships) follow the teaching of men. So first let me say the solid rock on which I stand it not Mike, but Jesus Christ. Secondly, what did Mike say when you asked him about this – I assume since you are drawing judgement you have actually personally spoken to him about this? I have conversations with Mike frequently, and at some point may ask him about all of this, but if he says “yes, I lied about some things” that would not change our Bible, God’s holy word. Men slip up, but not God!

        As for what it would take for me to deconvert, why would I ever imagine doing this? For you see, I have a relationship with Jesus, so I am not part of churchianity but Christianity. God has done mighty things in my life, and will continue to do so through eternity!

        What isa your personal relationship with God like?

        • Roger

          …you do realize this is an atheist’s blog and that the majority of the commenters here are also atheists, right? So, um, asking an atheist what his/her personal relationship with God is like makes about as much sense as me asking you what your personal relationship with Snuffalufagus is like.

        • Siberia

          What isa your personal relationship with God like?

          Kinda hard to have a relationship with something that doesn’t exist.

      • poetrini

        If there was “solid proof” of God’s existence, what would be the purpose of faith?

        • Jabster

          Yes excellent point. The reason that there’s no evidence for god is that then it wouldn’t require faith to believe in him. Now why didn’t I think of that … it’s obvious really.

      • Barney

        Have you experienced love? Have you ever studied science? Do you have any understanding of how complicated DNA is and how little we understand of it? If you need more proof than that, then you are an idiot.

        “The probability of even a single microbe forming without some sort of intelligent design behind it, is 10 to the power of 700 zeroes.” – Stephen Hawking

        Einstein believed in a creator too. Please stop ignorant mixing up religion and Christians. Christianity is a religion that has been marketed and twisted for thousands of years.

        Judge the person, don’t just them because they carry a title with them…

        There are dozens of religions and LONG before the internet or any worldwide media, the stories were all strikingly similar. There is a God, and a man who came down to take a physical form of God (or some such thing) and he taught people to be good.

        Are humans just PRONE to make up stories and lie? I can’t think of anything recent that is just a bold faced lie made to look like history, can you?

  • ChaplainJudi

    Wow! When you look at the dates of the beginning comments and look at today’s, my sharing from the heart has really started a fire storm! I had asked for notifications when people replied not knowing how many would come in so quickly! Because I have a life and a family, I am unsubscribing, but I made promises I plan to keep about putting facts out their for people to evaluate, and when I have time I will come in and see what is being said. If I can, I will make time to respond to it. For those who reaponded with dignity, thank you for respecting my person. For those who chose vulgarity and hate, I will still lift you up in my prayers. Responding as time permits,

    ChaplainJudi

    • Relles Natas

      Judi, Judi, Judi,

      Are you Terry’s wife?

      Or are you the son of a father who, like the fellow in Johnny Cash’s ‘Boy Named Sue’ song, named you Judi?

      In either case, if you are indeed female, how do you get around this?:

      “…women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.”
      1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (New International Version)

      • ChaplainJudi

        My husband says nice try, but the verse you referenced was addressing a cultural issue of the time, translated today as “Dont bring your ghettoblaster to church and turn it up loud” or some similiar thing. Wow, now we are questioning my sex/gender? Spinning too fast. Bye!

        • Kodie

          Thought you were leaving for 2 whole days. You have a perverse sense of language, and your husband also does. Why would a cultural issue particular to the time be a part of the scripture you’re supposed to follow FOR ALL TIME? I believe you are a woman Judi, but you are making excuses for scripture, and if you are going to come back instead of go away like you said, how about the secret information on those human sacrifices? You seem to keep popping up like a whack-a-mole but, like, how long are we supposed to wait for the truth according to Judi?

        • JohnMWhite

          So what else in there is just to be taken as a cultural issue of the time and not a universal, eternal truth? Are the abominations of Leviticus only really a cultural thing? Is the idea that one needs to give away all of one’s possessions to follow Jesus just addressing an issue in first century Judea? If we are to attribute complex cultural context to an explicit message once, we’re going to have to do it to every statement in the whole darn book, and then anything said by Jesus or Paul or anyone else in it can be rationalised away if we don’t like it or it doesn’t fit our new culture. Hooray!

      • Relles Natas

        So, you’re saying you are Terry’s wife? What are your two master’s degrees in, and what was the name on that cereal box you got them off of?

        Face it Judi, you’ve spoken in church. You’ve broken the law. Disgraceful. No amount of interpretatifying by that New Apostolic husband of yours will be able to save you from the fires of hell now, you wicked, unfundamendalist, word-of-god twisting, unrepentant, church-talking, openly blaspheming WOman. Church is for man-talking only. You just get to sit and listen. Can’t you read? I gave you your chance, but you blew it. But I’ll pray to the ceiling for you. You and that whole women-talking church of the damned of yours.

        I wouldn’t stand next to her if I was you, Terry. She might get turned into a pillar of salt or hit by some fire and brimstone any minute now!!

        Oh, by the way, Terry– it’s all your fault anyway because you caused her to sin by twisting god’s word in the first place. She should have just plucked you out and kept her mouth shut. How’s she supposed to learn at home from her husband if you’re twisting the truth? Now it’s too late for both of you and you’re going to HELL!!!!!

        • ChaplainJudi

          Who is Terry? I am not married to a Terry, but I would be interested in reading some postings – sounds like a real character.

          I was going to stay away for two days, but this morning I woke up feeling better and decided to check in and ssee if I was still the topic for discussion.

          The Liar/Lunatic question was about Jesusw Christ, not Mike.

          I have attended some special services at church’s we did not belong to who asked the women to stay silent and out of respect I did. It is interesting what some people have said about judging people who they dont know yet that seems to be the way things are handled for the most part here. If you wonder why I respond to your postings more,. you handle things sao much better that I do not mind responding to you.

          I am working on the postings about human sacrifices. You seem to appreciuate the delicateness of how information is disseminated, so maybe you could help your co-posters understand?

          I may check in later today but probably wilol not respond until tomorrow IF I am feeling better in the morning!

          I had a real scare! Two days ago I woke up with symptoms of a stroke, but it turned out to be a complicated migraine due to the flu. But I do feel marginally better now.

          • Roger

            You should stay off the Internet and take care of your health.

            • ChaplainJudi

              Thank you for your concern, Roger. I plan to do that although some people wont see it that way.
              I hope the coming year finds you and your loved ones healthy.

            • Jabster

              We llI was really looking forward to your child sacrifce evidence … it’s such a shame that you just made it up, sorry I meant haven’t got the time to post it.

            • Roger

              And now she’s invoking an illness. How convenient!

            • Sunny Day

              I wish more people got ill from compulsive lying Bloviating Bullshit would be self correcting!

            • ChaplainJudi

              I looked on Altavista, and I hope you appreciate the fact that 68,750 links would be difficult to list. Interesting those of you who “searched and found nothing!” Try these with google or altavista, First I put in covens + human sacrifices. That yielded over 68,000 responses. Then I plugged in Halloween + human sacrifice, and found 58,000 responses. So there is the key to those “super secret” links you said no one could access.

              I am still waiting on agency permission to tell me which links are publishable.

              For those who doubt I was sick, let me know where to send the amulance and hospital bills. After all, if they aren fake they will never come, right? Oh yeah, I remember, you dont need facts to make decisions, like I was never sick and married to Terry!

              Once I post the other links I will no longer visit this site as often. When I do if someone seems to really want to know something I will respond. If I see it is used to traffic hate, fear, despisement of purity, or other such nonsense I will not waste my time, or yours since you dont want to know it anyway. See you after the rapture!

            • Elemenope

              I looked on Altavista, and I hope you appreciate the fact that 68,750 links would be difficult to list. Interesting those of you who “searched and found nothing!” Try these with google or altavista, First I put in covens + human sacrifices. That yielded over 68,000 responses. Then I plugged in Halloween + human sacrifice, and found 58,000 responses. So there is the key to those “super secret” links you said no one could access.

              LOL. You either know nothing about checking sources for credibility or you think we are idiots.

              On Altavista:

              Christmas AND human sacrifice: 8,890,000 results
              Iceland AND Nazis: 4,850,000 results
              Chocolate AND Homosexuality: 1,710,000 results

              Yeah, I can really see how you’d be impressed with the number of links that pop up. It surely is a great way to find relationships between things in reality. [/sarcasm]

              I am still waiting on agency permission to tell me which links are publishable.

              Yah, OK. What agency is this, again?

            • Sunny Day

              She still may not be able to tell you ‘Nope.
              I have it from credible sources at Faber College, you are still on Double Secret Probation.

            • klidov

              ChaplinJudi-

              Your argument(s) has absolutely no credibility with me. And you honestly have no idea what you are talking about.

              Let me preface:

              1) I come from a Law Enforcement Family, both active & retired. (My own Husband is both retired Law Enforcement AND served in Counter-Intelligence for the U.S. Military). We do our homework very well. Especially in matters of interest, like the false memory-syndrome and the “satanic-panic” of the 80′s and 90′s. Which, as I mentioned before, I myself was drawn into the Witch-hunts, till I did my homework. In addition, to be clear, I was an active member of a Christian Church and every bit the “good-God-fearing-Satan-fighting” God-Warrior.

              2) Second point, I am currently friends with, and associate with true practicing occultists/satanists. Not the “dress-in-black-live-in-Mommy’s-basement-and-kill-cats” types of poseurs. The actual adults who are *gasp* married people with children, pets, and mortgages. Frightening enough, (sarcastic here) they are normal people. As in they own & love their pets, they care about the environment, and while they spend time on their practice, no human, or animal are harmed/killed in the process.(For the most part, their children are excellent students.)

              3) My friends who are occultists/satanists are very moral people, generally speaking. They believe, for the most part, in personal responsibility in for their actions, and words. No, they do not turn the other cheek and pray for enemies. They ignore them. <–please reread if necessary. Or they allow Karma/the Powers That Be to enforce "punishment". I find them less sexually agressive/permissive, or interested in drugs legal or illegal than the average person on the street. Maybe because the "forbidden" factor is not an attraction. Author/Artist/Occult expert and former Hellfire Club owner, Edward O'Toole is a very close personal friend of mine (he even put a nice acknowlagement for me in his newest book.)

              O.K.-what is my point in name-dropping & bringing these things up? Simply, ANYONE who knows anything about Satanism (Crowley, LaVey, John Dee) knows that Mike Warnke's claims are laughably lies .Even a novice Wiccan/Witch will tell you, they do not believe in a "Satan". (Shockingly. most Satanists don't either. That is a Juedo/Christian concept. My friends who are Occultists believe that they are Gods. Or Philosophy in theory and practice is their foundation).

              Mike Warnke's claims are from bad-B Hollywood films. Pure drek. No Witch, or Wiccan believes in let alone worships a "devil".

              In addition, you can find anything on the Internet, including a website for the Flat-Earth Society. The numbers mean nothing without the facts.

              I am well-aware of the fact that the majority of the people on this site are either Athiests, or Agnostics. I don't have a problem with that. I respect their right to believe, or disbelieve. I give them that credit for their intelligence.

              I was a one-time Christian (as a said), and now I am a Proud Pagan. I am sure that there are people reading this that would be amused at the fact that I believe that trees have spirits. *smiles* The difference is, I know that I do not have emperical evidence to back-up my beliefs.

              Furthermore, I do not try to validate any claim by quoting a book that claims to be the end-all, be-all of "Truth". This whole thread is not a spiritual battle between "good-and-evil". It's about making declarative statements with no evidence to support the claims.

              Mike Warnke lied. And, lied badly. I even fell for his bullshit at one time.Till I did my homework (unbiased, fact-based) and realized his whole gag was made-up. I, for one, can admit, I fell for the lie.

              Bottom line? A lie is a lie. And it's my opinion that lying for "God's purpose" is even more repulsive because it plays on people's trust & faith.

            • Roger

              Did Judi really write “see you after the Rapture”? Wow, this person is most definitely a few beans short of a taco salad.

            • Sunny Day

              “The difference is, I know that I do not have emperical evidence to back-up my beliefs.”

              That and I’m betting you’re Not trying to get laws passed based on and therefore following your beliefs.

            • Siberia

              … Altavista? Really?
              Altavista?

            • Elemenope

              Yeah, I did a double-take with the Altavista thing too. Altavista was the first search engine I used when I first got online; I had no idea they were even still around and that people used it after Yahoo and later Google utterly dominated the market with entirely superior products.

            • Siberia

              Yeah, me too… I used Altavista when Google was still in its infancy.
              Wow, I feel old now.

      • wintermute

        So you believe in a relative morality? Just because something is immoral in one place and time doesn’t mean that it can’t be moral in another?

        Isn’t that something of a minority viewpoint amongst Christians?

  • klidov

    ChaplinJudi-

    When I was a Christian, I wanted very much to believe in my “Brothers & Sisters in Christ”.I was very much a one-time apologist in making excuses for those that were “forgiven, but not perfect”. Then I grew-up. Personal responsibility for one’s actions is the very sign of maturity & personal accountaility. Mike Warnke, A man I once believed in, is a liar & a fraud. Frankly, he gives a black-eye to those who are Believers, and instead of simply allowing “God” to to be the one to whom he answers, I would think that a “true” believer, one who wants to serve the Christ would come forward (loudly) that the brave reporters that did so for Cornorstone Magazine, and call him on his Bullshit.

    Really, defending such a jackass kinda discredits the person who makes apologies for him.

    Hold him accountable & let him face the results of his actions. How else will he learn he is not allowed to lie in “God’s”-name…?

    • ChaplainJudi

      You are absolutley right, and I said I plan to ask Mike about this. We had not been in touch for many years, and he is dealing with a matter far greater than this right now. I reviewed my writings here and I do not think that I have defended him. All I said is that I would ask him when the time was right.. Maybe some people thinki my willing to hear his side IS defending him, but that is not what was said!

      Thank you for what you shared, although my personal faith has nothing to do with whether or not I grew up! You may be able to understand better than many here that I belong to Christ’s Church, not his church. What I mean is that I follow God’s son, not man who is trying to help me to understand. Do you remember the song that said “we are one, we are one. We are one in the spirit of the Lord. My family’s pentecostal, ny neighbor Presbyterian, and I am Nazarene but we are one in the Spirit of the Lord?” Christians and non-Christians try to peg uys to qa denomination and we say we are Christians, not denominational. Even Christians have a hard time understanding that.

      Well,m I need to sign off f0r the day. NMy equilibrium is crazy this morning!

      Thanks for sharing.

      • Relles Natas

        If you’ve never seen this, it’s really a must read:

        ‘Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments’

        Justin Kruger and David Dunning
        Department of Psychology
        Cornell University

        http://gagne.homedns.org/~tgagne/contrib/unskilled.html

        • klidov

          thank you Relles Natas. An excellent read :)

    • ChaplainJudi

      Klidov,

      Thenk you for responding in mature fashion most of the time to my postings. I was not too observant to begin with to see I was writing in an aethiest blog, though I have nothing to apologize for in what I have said except for where I have already apologized. But it seems that most people who post here are only interested in making a joke out of anyone’s beliefs. Yes, I believe there will be a rapture of the church, and if there is then Christ will return again with His Church, at which time the naysayers will be held accountable. So here is what I tell people: if I am living in a delusuion then it has been one of the best delusuions I have known of, no harm done. If I am living in a reality, then I do not want to be one of those who chose not to believe. Although I care about each person who posted here, I have many things to do with my day besides trying to converse with those who dont want facts because they already made up their opinion. So I bid farewell, except for the ONE time posting in the future to provide additional links, which I will post specifically to you since you handled yourself with dignity and class most of the time. I am sure my departure will open the floodgates of insults and inuendos, but my time will have been spent productively. Again, thenk you for leading the way of maturity in your responses. Maybe someday some of the others will catch on…

      Sincerely,
      Chaplain Judi

      • JohnMWhite

        “at which time the naysayers will be held accountable”

        Now, at the risk of sounding like I am ridiculing your beliefs by simply questioning them, I have to ask… does it not seem somewhat unreasonable for a figure of such enormous love as Jesus to have set up a system where naysayers, who are only going on their best assessment of the evidence available to them, should be held accountable for his failure to convince them of his existence? Should they really be judged as chaff and not wheat and thrown into the fire just because they came to the best conclusion they could with what was available to them?

        • http://gonewhere.info Brett Blatchley

          Hello John & Everyone, I’m Judi’s husband.

          When she read me your (John’s) reply to her comment, what immediately came to mind is that God is very much larger than this objection; this is a “human-sized” objection to someone/something assumed to be smaller than oneself.

          Imagine for a moment that if God really does exist and really did create us, imagine the great hubris required to assert our morality over His! As our creator He designed us to be moral and is Himself the definition of morality. If we have a problem with God’s morality, then I humbly submit that it is because we don’t have all the facts, or the proper perspective, or perhaps our own “moral compass” is in need of adjustment.

          BUT, to your point: God is NOT fair, rather He is merciful and gracious.

          If we are honest with ourselves, we realize that we don’t even meet our own moral standards, much less that of the moral perfection of God. Further, we all (if we are sane and mentally competent, and therefore responsible for ourselves) have a deep sense of justice. God’s sense of justice is deepest! What is wrong must be made right or “paid for” to put it in one familiar way. So, we *all* already stand condemned (from the sweetest lady to the most heinious mass-murderer), we already deserve to be separated from God, and the goodness that naturally accompanies Him. THAT is what Hell is – it’s a container for those who don’t want God. So if God was fair, there would be no way out of this for us, because though we didn’t give ourselves a rebelous nature, we have used our free will to choose to rebel.

          The mercy of God is that He knows we are stuck in this condition and that we can’t get out of it ourselves – so, He provided a way for us; He took the punishment that is due each one of us upon Himself so that He could extend us love and at the same time balance the “books” of justice.

          But He goes beyond that and gives us grace – grace is unmerited favour. For those who come to Him on His terms (and they are simple enough that a child can come), He sets about to totally remake them into the healed, whole and mature people He intended for them to be before they chose to rebel (something that takes a lifetime), and that’s just the beginning, eternity holds much more for those who love Him.

          But of course, all of this depends on how we exercise our free will – God is not going to force anyone to accept Him, and once they do accept Him, He is not going to force anyone to obey – He wants people to love Him, not robots to serve Him. We are free to reject God, but that has consequences. For those who would rather that they be their own God, there is that container called Hell. For those who have surrendered, there is an unfruitful life full of unnecessary hardship that denies the one who loved them first, AND sets a misleading example that makes it difficult for others to see God for who He is (and thus turn to Him for salvation) {sadly this is all too common}. YET we can exercise our free will in favor of God, and He will come far more than half-way to meet people who honestly want Him.

          SO, with all that in mind, it is in God’s character to make sure that EVERYONE has a genuine chance to accept forgiveness and a relationship with Him at least once in their lives. Those who really want God will find Him; those who don’t will won’t – the intellectually and morally honest people know who they are. Put another way, the truly intellectually honest will be met by God and He will (somehow) remove the intellectual barrier, but most people use such arguments as a way to try to escape ultimate responsibility to God for their lives. Again, such people know who they are, and they don’t fool the discerning, and more importantly the don’t fool God.

          I was once where you folks are – a staunch atheist. I had all these questions too, and as I matured (and struggled in life) my intellectual honestly grew to where I was willing to consider some uncomfortable answers to my deepest concerns. At that point, I still didn’t believe that God existed, or if there was a god then it was no more than an impersonal force. BUT I finally humbled myself to look in the last place I would have expected to find God: the Bible. I turned to the book called Romans and I said to God something like this: “I don’t know if you exist, People that I trust say you do and that this book is living and that I will find you here. If that is the truth, then help me to know this without doubt that you are real. I want to know the truth.” God answered that “prayer” and I eventually surrendered my life to Jesus. He has since healed me of totally humanly-impossible issues that are beyond the experience of most people. (I’ve written about this extensively elsewhere on the ‘Net.)

          Take Care Everyone

          PS) Please note that it’s very unlikely that I’ll write again in this forum, but I will answer polite email: Brett.Blatchley{at}Repartie.net.

          • Kodie

            Our god is not an efficient god.

            I think if I could imagine there was a god, which most people who believe in god have actually imagined there is a god, I would have to explain his behavior and his justice a lot like this. It doesn’t make sense, but you get too lost in the maze, and then you just give up, connect all the disconnected pieces with shortcuts, wave your hands and say, it’s impossibly large or incomprehensible, because that’s how god would roll, we are but stupid humans, and it will all come together in the hereafter, just you wait. Or you stay out of it all together, safe in the knowledge that it’s just not worth getting involved, no matter what anyone swears to know.

          • JohnMWhite

            “We are free to reject God, but that has consequences. For those who would rather that they be their own God, there is that container called Hell. For those who have surrendered, there is an unfruitful life full of unnecessary hardship that denies the one who loved them first, AND sets a misleading example that makes it difficult for others to see God for who He is (and thus turn to Him for salvation) {sadly this is all too common}. YET we can exercise our free will in favor of God, and He will come far more than half-way to meet people who honestly want Him.”

            This is not a choice. This is not freedom. To reject god and be forced to face drastic consequences is just holding a gun to your head while he demands that you, in your own words, surrender to him. This is a system by which you lose, massively, by not giving god what he wants. You cannot walk away, you get stuffed in a torturous container for ever and ever and ever. That’s not love, that’s not freedom. It is simply an abusive relationship wherein one entity has complete power over the fate of another. Where’s the choice to reject god but also reject hell? Where’s the choice to not exist, to have never existed? Where is the choice to enter heaven without kowtowing to god’s arbitrary demands? You can call god the definition of morality but that simply renders morality meaningless – it becomes ‘moral’ of god to do whatever he wants. So in the end, all we are doing is following orders, without a real choice, to please a god who is apparently in favour of the Nuremberg defence as the height of morality.

          • Roger

            Basically, this is Battered Spouse syndrome. Your abusive, petty, tyrannical, egomaniacal, megalomaniacal deity gives you a “choice” to worship it; of course, you can “choose” to not do this. However, if you choose “no,” your abusive, petty, tyrannical, egomaniacal, and megalomaniacal deity will send you to a place of eternal torment.

            Bullshit. You wouldn’t put up with this from a human being–you definitely wouldn’t put up with this from a parent. In fact, you’d call this behavior abusive and evil. Yet, your deity gets a free pass. Let’s set aside the fact that you cannot prove this entity’s existence. The characteristics that you attribute to this entity render it utterly immoral, cruel, and worthy of nothing but the deepest of contempt and opprobrium.

            • JohnMWhite

              While I totally agree with this assessment, unfortunately we seem to first have to get past the hurdle of this man’s belief that god IS morality; by definition whatever god does is moral. I’m not really sure how to get around such a wilfully stubborn and irrational concept, which is why I’m trying to demonstrate how logically this is not a choice (for a human) anyway.

            • Roger

              Good point, John. Of course, we come to Euthyphro’s dilemma. If this “god” of the Christian can do whatever it bloody well pleases and those actions are “moral,” then who is it to tell humans to do when it can act so capriciously and without regard for humanity? What irritates me is the Christian description of this perverse relationship as “love.” There’s nothing “loving” about this relationship at all. And for Christians to characterize their abusive, petty dictator as the ground of all morality is itself part of a battered spouse syndrome–the deity can do no wrong, controls everything, and everything that we do is our fault.

            • Relles Natas

              Hmmm. I wonder if Euthyphro was the inspiration for Randy Newman’s ‘God’s Song’?:

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVCGf0CnYzw

          • Custador

            Tell me something Brett:

            If I had you and your entire family tied up in chairs, put a red pill and a blue pill in front of you, told you that you had to take one but the choice of which one was entirely your own decision but that if you took the red pill I would have you and your entire family gang-raped and murdered – which pill would you take?

            That is effectively the “free will” which you vaunt so highly. If one is raised to believe in Christianity, one has no choice at all. It’s only when you realise that it’s all bullshit, that the ropes securing you to the chair are imaginary and you’re free to stand up and smack me with the chair then flush the pills down the toilet – That is when you start exercising “free will”, my friend.

            • Cucumber

              In love with this Matrix anology. Four for you.

            • Custador

              Aw, thanks Cucumber :-)

            • Cucumber

              *Analogy.

              But what if I want the purple pill, or orange pill?! Lulz. There could be any number of pills and there could also be unicorns and also chainsaws.

            • Custador

              If they take the orange pill then I get to strap suicide vests on them and send them to blow up the purple pill takers who refused the blue pill and stole the land of the orange pill takers.

            • MissDid

              What about a green pill… Can I have a green pill? Then maybe I’ll whip out my chainsaw and ride my unicorn in a rally against the orange pill takers, who were wearing very stylish suicide vests when they blew up the purple pill takers, who refused to take the blue pill and instead stole the land of the orange pill takers because they figured “Heck, they ain’t coming back. Did you see those vests they got on?”

              Nice.

      • Sunny Day

        “But it seems that most people who post here are only interested in making a joke out of anyone’s beliefs.”

        This is what happens when people make up fantastical claims and get called on their bullshit. Perhaps your ministerial duties of Lying for Jesus didn’t prepare you to face criticism from adults who don’t automatically swallow whole any claim you care to make.

        “who don’t want facts because they already made up their opinion.”

        Facts: They are not just what you say. They are what you can prove. We’re happy to listen to whatever you have to say but be prepared to answer questions and back up what you claim.

        • Relles Natas

          Thought processes of a “believer”:

          1. Assume any and all “unbelievers” you come into contact with have no knowledge of the history, development, sources or substance of your “beliefs”.

          2. Don’t ask any questions to find out what they might know or where they , but ignore everything they say, launch into your “testimony” about how you used to be just like them, blah, blah, blah, complete with “cut and paste” theology of your choice thrown which verifies your particular version of the truth.

          3. Assume their logical counterpoints to your gobbledygook and their own experiences with believing the same kinds of things themselves are signs of willful ingorance on their part or just plain old devil possession.

          4. Tell them that if you’re wrong, you’ll just rot in a dark grave when you die, while if they’re wrong, they’ll go to hell for eternity. Kind of like telling them that if gravity is wrong all you’ve done is cling to that tree all your life while if it’s true then they’ll go floating off into space at any minute.

          5. Keep repeating steps 1-4 until you get tired of their devilish “nonsense”, that you don’t read anyway, because you already know all truth for all time.

          6. Then shake the dust of their (town, thread, etc) off of your feet, share your sincere hope that they will some day find the “truth” too, repeat steps 1-4 at least one more time, especially the part about going to hell, then ride off into the sunset, while claiming something clever to you like it’s really the “Son” set, and that you won’t be back anymore.

          7. Come back, and start from step 1.

          How do I know all this? Because I did the EXACT same thing thousands of times myself back when I used to think I knew everything and was God’s personal spokesman too.

          • http://gonewhere.info Brett Blatchley

            Your statements show alot of thought and decision-making, and when you say no one asks how you came to your conclusions, I plead guilty. So please, tell me what made you turn away from your personal belief to a personal unbelief. Like I and my husband said (note he is not Terry)
            we are interested in corresponding with people who want to discuss and not just slam people. And if I did any of that, please forgive me. It probably was not the best idea to start my correspondence on a day that a family near us had such a tragedy amd when I was as sick as I was. I am feeling SO much better niow that I am on the dizzyness medicine Antivert and new ribbon for the eye infection, and medicine for the complicated migraine. Boy., that was so scary because it seemed like I was having a stroke! Anyway, I am interested in what changed your mind/heart.

            • JohnMWhite

              “Like I and my husband said”

              Congratulations on your homosexual marriage, Brett. Tough to get those.

              In seriousness I’m guessing this is yourself, Judi, having forgotten to switch accounts? Just to be clear.

            • Relles Natas

              Well Juli, and I’m assuming this is Juli again using your husband’s registration now– this site has a rather ingenious method whereby one can identify a poster’s previous posts by matching up the distinctive shaped and colored icon/avatar beside their name. Mine happens to be green, and appears somewhat to the north and west.

              I have already written a number of lengthy posts here– all of which detail numerous such “thought processes” and “decisions” that I was forced into making along the way, because when I became a Christian by kneeling down, repenting of my sins, and asking Jesus into my heart to make me a new creature “in Him” so that I would enjoy eternal life– and was baptized in a river in Kansas in December, by the way– I believed I had a “contract” with god based on his eternal promises– by grace through faith, and not by works, lest any man should boast.

              I had been led to believe this “contract” was available and also “eternal” by people like this POS Mike Warnke, Hal Lindsey, Josh McDowell, a number of Dhristian friends from high school, who repeatedly told me that the Bible was inerrant, that it could be trusted inherently, that it had absolute internal, literal consistency. They showed me all kinds of prophecies and told me all kinds of stories, and since I didn’t know much Bible and I didn’t know much history it all sounded good to me and I bought it hook, line, and sinker.

              I was taught that because it was the “Word of God”, and “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.” So with credentials like that I naively assumed that such a “Word” would stand up to any amount of reading of it that I could do! In fact, I thought the more I read it, the more sense it would make, and the better I would be able to share it with others, and the more true it would become to me, so I read, and studied, and meditated upon it, and prayed, and did indeed endeavor to share it with anyone who would listen and even some who would not– just as you are doing here.

              For years I believed with all my heart that I had found the “life” and the “light”. In fact “I found IT” was on several of my T-shirts at the time. Now I realize you aren’t even reading any of this, so I’m not going to start listing off all the contradictions in the Bible that I began to find right away. The fact is that for most of the early ones– for the first three or four years– with my growing shelf of concordances, commentaries, Bible encyclopedias, Bible dictionaries, Christian books, and the counsels of other Christians and Elders I was able to “explain” away most of my problems away the way your husband “explained” away Paul’s clear commandment that women are to remain silent in the church with silly comments about ghetto blasters and noise making or whatever.

              But truly, I say unto you, that it was only after I had become expert in the Bible, and had read it many times over– only then did I begin to be able to discern that occasionally the same stories or parables told in the various Gospels would have the occasional discrepency, and later began to find the more serious contradictions such as on which day the Last Supper took place, or which day Christ was crucified, or even how many days or nights he stayed in the tomb.

              Once such things as those accumulated to such an extent– I was forced to either believe my own mind was lying to me, or continue believing what was increasingly becoming an obvious lie. And this is not to say that the whole Bible is a lie, just the fact that it is inerrant, or that it can be trusted by its internal consistency to be a proof of the eternal promises of God, and therefore be trusted as a guidebook to “eteranl life” or to have even originated from the kind of God of whom it claimed to be the “Word”.

              So if you wish to go back and look for my distinctive green icon/avatar with Relles Natas appearing clearly beside it, and actually read what I had to say, and then come back to me with answers which are not the same answers I have listened to hundreds, if not thousands of other Christians wriggling around and copping to in the past– great. If not don’t worry– it won’t be a big surprise. I have, as they say, been there, and done that, and I have very low expectations of you, because I know your “Word”.

            • klidov

              I really, sincerely hope that Judi, her Husband, or any of the other people/personalities that use the account to post, read all of what you have had to say Rellas. I sincerely do.

              They will be in denial. They will attempt to pick apart your testamony. They will give in to the knee-jerk “It must be Satan” fall-back excuse. They will attempt to “pray about it”, giving God an out if “He” does not clear things up for them.

              But maybe, just maybe, they will think about what you have said. They will be fearful for doing so, at first. And angry with you for making them question. At least at first.

              But maybe they (and the lurkers) WILL begin to question. And seek out answers.

              I was the female version of you once, Rellas. I walked a mile in your shoes as a “believer”. And, your story really matches my own, minus certain details.

              Well-done Rellas. You truly are a voice of reason.

            • Cucumber

              The fact that neither have bothered to read your posts is proof enough of their fail. I’ve noticed that with any post of a considerable length, xtians here tend to ignore them and focus instead on the smaller ones that either are there mostly for comic relief.

              If they can’t even exert themselves to read an internet post, it stands to reflect their comprehension of the Bible, at the very least.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    Try as I may, it is hard to understand how a person like you can end up where you are. I do not pretend to know you, but you remind me of Charles Templeton,once Billy Graham’s pulpit partner and close friend. Some thought Templeton would eclipse Graham as an evangelist. One day, Templeton saw a photograph in “Life” magazine. It was a picture of a black woman in Africa, holding her dead baby in her arms and looking up to heaven in deep sorrow. Templeton wondered how a loving God could allow this woman’s baby to die. From this,Templeton renounced his faith.
    “I had gone through a conversion experience as an incredibly green youth. I lacked the intellectual skills and the theological training needed to buttress my beliefs when-as was inevitable-questions and doubts began to plague me…My reason had begun to challenge and sometimes to rebut the central beliefs of the Christian faith.”

    Templeton’s doubts began to work on his friend Billy Graham. One night,Graham confessed to God that he could not answer all the questions that his friend Templeton was raising. He told God that he was going to accept the Bible as God’s word “by faith”. He also said the would allow faith to go beyond his own intellectual questions and doubts.” Billy Graham allowed his faith to overcome the doubts from his intellect. Templeton allowed his intellect to overcome his faith. Graham remained anevangelist, Templeton becamea commentator and a novelist.

    Athiest George H. Smith states, “Reason and faith are opposites, two mutually exclusive terms: there is no reconciliation or common ground. Faith is belief without, or in spite of, reason.”

    Christian educator W. Bingham Hunter takes the opposite view. “Faith is a rational response to the evidence of God’s self-revelation in nature, human history, the Scriptures and his resurrected Son.”

    Maybe you have overthought everything to the point of allowing your intellegence to be superior to God’s? I don’t know. I do know this. On this Easter weekend, I’m just going to look for myself into the empty tomb, and thank Jesus for what that means for me, and for my eternal destiny. I hope everyone here does the same. Happy Easter.

    • Relles Natas

      Sorry Terry, you’re just arguing in circles. Either your beliefs make sense, they will stand up to investigation, and become more solid over time through study– or they don’t make sense, they should just be accepted by faith, and any/all weaknesses/discrepencies/contradictions which your human mind might discover in them should just be ignored as mysteries about god which we, the likeness of god, just cannot figure out with the puny brains he gave us. Fair enough.

      I see that you, like all true believers, have chosen the second route which is fine with me. Just don’t turn around later and try to throw out supposed facts as some kind of foundation for those beliefs, because at the bottom there are none– and you have just admitted as much. All you have is “experience”, not facts. I’m not expecting to change anyone’s religious beliefs– especially not a preacher like you, though some day you might wake up– I’m just intending to provide an alternative voice of someone who has “been there and done that” to anyone as young and naive as I once was who might be following the discussion here and be tempted to believe your split personality in a minute when you decide to throw out some Josh McDowell, Hal Lindsey, or even Mike Warnke– or any other crap for that matter– as “evidence” that demands a verdict in your favor. I have arrived at the verdict– BUNK! You have arrived at the verdict– BLIND BELIEF!

      My good friend Jesus’ bones have long ago turned to dust as all ours shall, and his teachings have either been lost or irretrievably corrupted, and you’re participating this weekend in what is at its root an Ishtar/mother goddess worship rite of Spring– mainly the rebirth of the sun/vernal equinox, and hopes for agricultural fertility as represented by those rabbits and eggs. So celebrate your sun worship at dawn Sunday like the born-again pagan-in-denial you are, but just remember this– the gospels have differing accounts of when the last supper, Jesus’ crucifixion, and death occurred, and even disagree on the number of days and nights he supposedly stayed in the tomb before rising from the dead http://unreasonablefaith.com/2010/04/02/when-was-jesus-crucified/ .

      So check it all out if you dare, and come on back and say it doesn’t matter, or that your brain just can’t understand the greatness of god, or whatever excuse you need, just as long as you understand you’re not going to get away with acting like you know what you’re talking about around here, like you do at Bible study and Sunday school, OK?

  • Terry

    Poetrini,
    thanks for the support. I encourage you to continue with your comments on this website. After a few weeks absence, I felt led to return. Atheists mock “faith”, yet it takes much more faith to be an atheist than it takes to be a Christian.

    Believing that everything created was done so without a creator takes a faith that I do not possess. That, my fellow Christian friend, is true “Blind Faith”. That’s like saying that the dictionary was created from an explosion at a print shop. Random chance, our athiest opponets contend. Well, I am not satisfied with leaving my eternal destiny to random chance, are you?

    What a great weekend we have in store for us. Just think. A God that loved us so much that He gave his only son as a substitute for our sins. That Son who is also God became flesh, and not only willingly gave himself as the perfect sacrifice, He also defeated death by raising Himself from the dead on the third day so we who believe in this AWESOME GOD will also live eternally with Him. We can enjoy this Easter with joy, love, and thanksgiving. Our athiest friends will blaspheme, deny and hate Christ and the empty tomb. That’s OK, He can take their taunts…so can we.

    • Jabster

      Can you come up with some original arguments next time Terry, oh and when using the term “random chance” it helps if you know the subject you’re talking about in the first place otherwise you make yourself sound somewhat ignorant and it opens you up to being show as that.

      p.s. I liked the Christian persecution bit at the end I and was only surprised than you didn’t also offer to pray for us.

    • Relles Natas

      Oh yummy yes, just think– a weekend of Christian worship based originally on an eastern fertility religion, which even takes its name from a corrupted pronunciation of the goddess Ishtar.

      So at dawn on Sunday, when Jesus would only have been in the grave for no more than two nights (maybe three) and about a day (maybe two), depending on which gospel account you choose to “believe” (just don’t add anything up– remember it’s such a MYSTERY!)– you’ll be continuing nearly two thousand years of Christian error! Yes, you’ll actually be marking the annual re-birth of the sun god after its long winter’s dying, greeting that vernal equinox (give or take a week or two either way with all the calendar issues which have arisen after all these years) in imitation of ancient pagan fertility religion without the slightest clue– as usual.

      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
      I don’t care what they may say
      I don’t care what they may do
      I don’t care what they may say
      Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus is just alright
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
      I don’t care what they may know
      I don’t care where they may go
      I don’t care what they may know
      Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus, he’s my friend; Jesus, he’s my friend
      He took me by the hand; Led me far from this land
      Jesus, he’s my friend
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah
      Jesus is just alright with me, Jesus is just alright
      I don’t care what they may say, I don’t care what they may do
      I don’t care what they may say, Jesus is just alright, oh yeah

      ~Doobie Brothers

    • claidheamh mor

      Poetrini, thanks for the support. I encourage you to continue with your comments on this website.

      Of course you do. You need people who also believe in your particular mythology and agree with you to reinforce your beliefs.

      Atheists mock “faith”, yet it takes much more faith to be an atheist than it takes to be a Christian.

      Wrong again! That old, unoriginal saw again! “a-”: without, not, and “-theism”: belief in any particular mythology’s deity, means that – finding that the mythology of that deity does not hold up to reason. (Any type of reason: it’s internally inconsistent, it’s inconsistent with fact or history, it’s violent or mentally unhealthy….) Like not-stamp-collecting isn’t a hobby. Not believing a mythology is not not “faith”.

    • JohnMWhite

      “Believing that everything created was done so without a creator takes a faith that I do not possess.”

      But believing that a creator created everything without being created itself requires no faith at all… at least, no faith in causality.

      “That, my fellow Christian friend, is true “Blind Faith”. That’s like saying that the dictionary was created from an explosion at a print shop.”

      Actually it’s more like a print shop exploded and then the result, whatever that may be, ended up being named the dictionary. You are presuming that the universe looks like the universe you know and perceive and that is somehow an enormous coincidence of chance. It’s not, it is merely a result.

      “Just think. A God that loved us so much that He gave his only son as a substitute for our sins.”

      A god that loved us so much that he made a special place of eternal torment for us then had to kill himself to appease himself so that we wouldn’t be sent there so long as we believed in him.

      “That Son who is also God became flesh, and not only willingly gave himself as the perfect sacrifice, He also defeated death by raising Himself from the dead on the third day so we who believe in this AWESOME GOD will also live eternally with Him.”

      Three points… First of all, death wasn’t exactly defeated, we died before and we continue to die since. Secondly, it wasn’t really the third day after his death, more like the second morning after it, but I suppose Jesus was an over-achiever. Finally… stating this stuff over and over as if it is fact on an atheist website isn’t going to get you anywhere. It is pure conjecture with no basis whatsoever. If you believe it to be true, that’s fine, but it’s no more relevant to just keep telling us these things than it would be for me to go to a Star Wars forum and tell them of the adventures of my dog with no evidence to back it up.

    • Roger

      After a few weeks absence, I felt led to return.

      Loverly. Could you also be “felt led” to make some bloody sense and think critically?

  • Terry

    jabster,
    you are a man of deep thought. why don’t you tap into your infinite reserves of gray matter and explain to everyone what random chance secertly means. again, you only offer opinions without ant type of back-up. I’m n ot suprised I sound ignorant to you, you have shown me no evidence of intelligence.

    • Elemenope

      Random chance is random chance. What Jabster is saying is that you’re abusing the concept and misapplying it to the conversation.

      For an analogy, consider the formation of stalactites. Each water drop pregnant with dissolved minerals does indeed take a random course to the ground. However, stalactites form in a predictable (and beautiful) manner because each prior drop’s deposition affects how the next drop will travel and deposit. On the small scale it is random, but when observed over time, patterns are observable.

    • Jabster

      It’s really simple as Terry as multiple posters have already shown they know exactly what I mean but your ignorance shows brightly with your comment concerning “random chance”. As I said before it’s best to understand the subject you’re talking about before posting but you obviously think that parading your stupid in a public forum is a virtue.

      I’ll pray for you …

  • Jim Newman

    Mike Warnke is having you all on for a laugh. I hope you won’t take him seriously.
    I rode the school bus with him every day, to school, in the early and mid 1960s, to Rim of the World High School in Lake Arrowhead California.
    He lived with relatives in a part of Crestline California called Valley of Enchantment.
    He was a nice enough guy. After all of these years it’s nice for me to know how my high school classmates turned out..:)

    • Klidov

      “..Mike Warnke is having you all on for a laugh. I hope you won’t take him seriously…”

      I a pretty sure I speak not only for myself when I say, what Mike Warnke thinks/finds amusing on any topic means little/nothing to me.

      Just sayin’

  • Terry

    Jabster,
    I have never said that I would pray for you. I believe that God will not force a person to do something, or anything against their will. God will not force you, Rellas, Jabster, and every other athiest on this blog to become Christians against your will just because I prayed for Him to do so. So relax.

    Does that sound contradictory to Christian faith? The night Judas betrayed Him, Jesus prayed to the Father for the remaining 11 disciples, calling Judas the son of perdition.

    Why would Jesus treat you, Rellas, Jabster,Klidov, and the rest of the athiest Jesus betrayers any different? Matthew 12:31 says, “and so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, BUT the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”

    Paul goes on to say in Romans 1:28, God turned them over to a reprobate mind…”
    God does not do this until He is certain that the person is beyond redemption.

    You and your athiest friends blaspheme God, and you enjoy it. You are His enemies. Sadly I think all of you may have gone to far. He may have turned you over to the reprobate mind-Satan.

    • Relles Natas

      Bye bye, Terry.

      I hope your feet are quite clean now. This is the third or fourth time you’ve shaken the dust of this thread off of them and “left”.

      You did your best. You hurled numerous threats of fire and brimstone, predictably. You spewed sufficient nonsensical gibberish. Now you’ve brought out the big gun– the unforgiveable sin, the one even the blood of Jesus Christ can’t cover– blaspheme against the Holy Spirit!! (Cue scary organ music)

      Now, away with you! I’ve been tired of arguing with nuts like you for 30 years already. But you won’t get the last word here, no matter how hard you try.

      HAPPY ISHTAR DAY, AND A MERRY VERNAL EQUINOX TO ALL!!

    • JohnMWhite

      “I believe that God will not force a person to do something, or anything against their will.”

      Except burn for all eternity for not believing in him.

      • Jabster

        Good old god, he gave as free will to do as we please but will punish us if we don’t do as he pleases!

      • claidheamh mor

        Bwaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha!

        The gobble of “loving” Christians everywhere: (@johnmwhite this time in thousands)

        “You are in for such a big surprise/nasty shock when you die. We have to give up the good stuff in this life, but we’ll get ours (the good stuff) when we die. You bad atheists get the good stuff now, but you will get YOURS (the really really bad stuff) when you die. And it will be FOREVER! And you will finally see I’m right when you get yours, bwaaaaahhaaahaahahaha….”

        It’s too convincing… I’m being saved… I feel the call to give my life to Jesus… I finally heard the word… another soul saved… I finally saw the light…I’m converting to Christianity… this true Christian was such a shining, hate-filled example of the Lord Jesus Christís pure hate… I feel it… it is so powerful… I’m shaking all over (or is that repressed laughter?)… I’m giving my life to Christ and spreading the word of his hate… this spiteful true Christian has finally made me see the error of my ways… I’m turning Christian…

      • claidheamh mor

        Or — was my irony meter low on power again?

        Sheesh on me. Well, good for making fun of terry (and his dusty feet from all the round trips).

    • Klidov

      “…Klidov, and the rest of the atheist Jesus betrayers any different…”

      *sigh*

      Terry. Ah, Terry. I am neither an atheist or an agnostic. (Just like your previous assumption that I was a Male. I am a Female).

      Friendly advice: Declarative statements are not your friend.

  • Jabster

    “… and was only surprised than you *didn’t* also offer to pray for us.”

    I see you reading skills are at much the same level as your understanding of what “random chance” really means. Maybe you should try and educate yourself but then again there is a certain class of believers (and you seem to be included here) that don’t wish to have the views challenged and revel in their own ignorance.

    Oh and here’s a hint, quoting Bible passages at non-believers is a bit of a non-starter. Would you take notice if a Muslim said you where wrong and backed it up with passages from the Qur’an … no you wouldn’t would you?

  • Terry

    Jabster,
    you still haven’t given your definition of “random chance”. Maybe Rellas can fill the gaps in far you

    • Elemenope

      Perhaps you weren’t paying attention, but the random chance thing was explained. By me. Did you not understand the explanation? I can try another way if you wish.

    • Jabster

      Oh come now Terry, the meaning of random chance has been explained to you (I’m ever so sorry for not realising that I was expected to explain it to you).

      Moving on can you explain what you think random chance means and why you thought it was relevant to the thread in hand? Of course you could just admit that you’re attacking a subject which in fact you have very, very little understanding of and indeed you have little interest in understanding.

  • Terry

    Jabster
    yes, I wanted your explaination of random chance. Some original thought of your own without piggy backing on others comments for once. Come on, its not that hard…is it?

    • Ty

      At some point, you will be so ironic that you will collapse into an irony singularity.

    • Jabster

      No Terry it’s already been explained to you what random chance is. It’s not really a subjective term is it?

      The fact of the matter is that you’ve used the term to try and “score a point” yet don’t even know the subject you’re attacking. The fact that you are unwilling to to answer the question speaks volumes.

  • Terry

    Relles,
    looking back on your comments has convinced me that you are 100% phony. You claim that you became a Christian after reading trhe “Satan Seller.” Really? I read the book at basically the same time that you did, and easily realized Warnke was a fake. He substituted sensationalism and shock as Christian evidence that he was saved. What part of the book led you to Jesus? The part when Satan and his demons held down Warnke and tried to kill him? It is sad that false preachers can deceive Biblically illerate people by the hundreds. The things Warnke wrote as fact were pure hogwash.
    So, instead of accepting Jesus as your Savior, you chose Warnke and his false teachings. No wonder you said you never felt as lonely as you felt the 4 plus years you worshipped Warnke.
    You claim to have sold all of your posessions, lost all of your friends who were not Warnke/Christians. You spent thousands on tracts, etc. You were pushed around and beaten up a few times for preaching on street corners. After reading your twisted reasoning and deliberatly perverting scriptures, I’m surprised you came out alive.
    I really enjoyed the story you told of almost being knifed by a gang-banger for witnessing to him as he tried to sell you drugs in a bus station restroom. That story is almost identical to a story Warnke told on one of his tapes. Except Warnke’s account ended with the druggie going home only to become a preacher. Either you were trying to BE a Warnke, or you are twisting Warnke’s fables in an attempt to sound cool and martyred. That is the same M.O.you use when twisting your interpretations of the Bible.
    Your reasoning and interpretation of scripture is so bizarre that only the Biblically illeterate or a fool could even pretend to understand or believe it. What is even more bizarre is that you think you are an authority of the Bible. Dream on, You only use your so-called “diligent study of the Word to prevert and to mislead.
    You were never a Christian. A Warnke-ian maybe, but Christian? Not even close. To become a Christian, a person must first confess to God that he is a sinner. He must then repent of these sins, and confess that without God’s forgiveness, he can never be forgiven of these sins. He must confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, that He lived a sinless life while on the earth, was crucified, dead and buried, and on the third day He arose from the dead, defeating death and Satan. And because He lives, we who believe in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Christ is the believers center of worship, not the other way around.

    You never took even the first step in becoming a Christian. You certainly never accepted the fact that Jesus is Lord, and arose from the dead. No way. People that have had Christ revealed to them in truth, and believe NEVER WILL GO ON TO DENY HIS DIETY.

    I think you have always been anti-Christian who saw the shock value of Warnke’s absurd claims as something that was cool. It was a counterfeit Christianity you could accept because you thought you could emulate Warnke and appear cool without actually being Christian. Finally, after four plus years of making a fool out of yourself, you returned to your vomit, like Scripture says the dogs do. In an attempt to save face, you blame Warnke.

    Well pal, I know what crap smells like, and your smell makes one check his feet after you speak. Poor Rellas, the persecuted. Baloney. Demas stayed with Paul longer than you stayed with Warnke. The only people you dupe are your fellow reprobates in this minature universe/blog site.

    • Relles Natas

      Terry, Terry, Terry. I’m starting to feel dirty now– like I’m plucking the wings off of flies or something. You truly are a pathetic excuse for an intellect. Your constant returning here after promising you’re leaving, along with your judgemental attitude, anger, and threats show that you are of the flesh. You are in the world AND of it. You have not been crucified with Christ. You have not risen a new man in him. You’re just a sad, bitter religious fanatic, as dead as anyone else. You’re the one whose pride and flesh keeps bringing him back to the vomit. I really do pity you. You’re a religious hypocrite, and except for the greedy rich Christ hated no one more.

      As for my journey to “find Christ”, I was first exposed to born-again teachings in 1968. I never said Warnke’s book was the only influence on me. It was what pushed me over the edge, but I’d been hearing the gospel for years. I read “The Late Great Planet Earth” in 1972– I remember the year specifically because I was on a trip with my parents and the TV in the motel room had the Olympics on while I was trying to figure out what all those horns and beasts were all about. Then I had Christian friends all through Junior High and High School. It was actually on a school bus on the way to a football game my Senior year in the fall of 1976 that a guy gave me the Warnke book. I didn’t read it till I got to college the next year.

      As far as I know, none of the other Christians I fellowshipped with after I got saved had even read Warnke’s book. So much for that ridiculous “theory” of yours. Some people had his albums, but as I pointed out above, it was something he said on one of those records that convinced me he was a liar. By then it didn’t matter anyway. Didn’t I have the completely inerrant, inspired, internally coherent, absolutely trustworthy Bible as my evidence? I sure thought so. That’s why I studied it and preached it every day. Maybe I did use Warnke’s stories to try to scare people into getting saved. After all, the only thing ll I did in those days was preach, I really don’t remember the specifics of each sermon. It was over 30 years ago. I was barely 18, naive, and believed if something was in a book it must be true or “they” wouldn’t let if be sold. But I was a Navigator in the dorms and used their Bible Study program to learn more and to witness. I had other friends in Intervarsity, Campus Crusade, Icthus, etc. I focused more on the End Times and Prophecy to scare people, not Warnke, who I figured out on my own was a liar.

      And everything I said above happened and more. The knife episode was very real. You take a bus out of Harrisburg PA sometime at 2:30 AM and tell me how it goes. That was 1980. I was on my way to New York to protest abortion and the devil Jimmy Carter at the Democratic National Convention at Madison Square Gardens. Being from the midwest I couldn’t understand what the dude who followed me into the bathroom was saying to me. He was getting mad, but all I was seeing was what I thought was an opportunity to share the gospel. Even up to the point where he pulled the knife I still thought he was asking me questions about why I didn’t use drugs anymore. I was, to say the least, out of my element. Knowing what I know now that was a close one.

      And I did public preaching almost every weekend. Sometimes it was right there in the student tavern district where I went to school– other times 20 or 30 of my church would travel a few hours to another college campus nearby, and take turns preaching/passing out pamphlets at busy campus chokepoints. You might be surprised at how many people who were just laughing at you a minute ago will come to your rescue when somebody pushes you, knocks you down, hits your pamphlets out of your hand, screams in your face, etc. Turning the other cheek does work. You should shut your mouth and try living a testimony instead of being nothing but words sometime. You might actually get somewhere.

      Anyway, I know the power of my testimony to the falseness of the Bible has touched you deeply, Terry. I know that I have planted the seeds, and that in time they will grow to fruition, and you too will become free of superstition and stupidity. Until then, I hope you don’t get so angry and prideful in the flesh that you do or say something around the wrong person. Jesus might not be looking out for you like I guess he was in that bathroom in Harrisburg.

      I’ll be thinking FOR you Terry. I’ll be imagining that you wake up in the morning, open your eyes, think for yourself, and figure things out. Hopefully there is some mysterious, unexplainable force that can transport my rational thoughts and ability to discern evidence from bunk to you, wherever you’re holed up. And if you fail to heed my words, don’t worry. I’m pretty sure you won’t be going to heaven or hell when you die, even though you have broken one of the ten commandments by bearing false witness against me, claiming I’m a liar, when you have no idea what the truth of the matter is.

      But just in case, you’d better get down on your knees right now and repent.

  • Terry

    klidov, you say that you are the female version of Rellas? That’s a scary thought..but you are neither athiest or agnostic? If you agree with Rellas’ rantings you obviously do not believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior who rose from the dead as He predicted.

    not only do you people pervert your own beliefs, you enjoy trying to convince yourselves that they are true.

    While you are at it, ask Relles, the only self-proclaimed athiest/Bible scholar how the bones of Jesus that he claimed turned to dust were not in His empty tomb. Maybe Relles is hiding them in Warnke’s stack of unsold “Satan Sellers.”

    • Elemenope

      If you agree with Rellas’ rantings you obviously do not believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior who rose from the dead as He predicted.

      You have passed the irony event horizon, just as Ty predicted. I especially liked:

      “Finally, after four plus years of making a fool out of yourself, you returned to your vomit, like Scripture says the dogs do.”

      I can just feel the love of Christ ooze from that one.

    • JohnMWhite

      Jesus predicted he would rebuild the temple in three days. Took him a day and two nights. He was a bit off, you have to admit.

  • Terry

    Elemenope,
    the problem with athiests is that you feel you can live and do as you please without being held accountable. You guys want to rant and rave total gibberish, then expect us Christians to pat you on the head and say, “there, there, I understand…it’s O.K., I’ll pray for you. That is not Christian love.

    That just isn’t the way it works in this world. All I’m doing is calling a spade a spade-holding everyone accountable for their foolish remarks. I know you athiests don’t like being held accountable, but it is the only way to bring you back to your senses, if that is possible.

    I like this new “passed the irony event horizon”. Sounds like more new age jibberish you non-believers belch out when you are exposed as the frauds you are.

    • Jabster

      So then Terry what do you think random chance means?

    • Siberia

      You don’t even know what an event horizon is, do you?
      That’s OK. We’ll keep thinking for the likes of you (and lol’ing behind your back, of course).
      Your sky pixie can go… well, it can’t, since it doesn’t exist.

    • Elemenope

      the problem with athiests is that you feel you can live and do as you please without being held accountable. You guys want to rant and rave total gibberish, then expect us Christians to pat you on the head and say, “there, there, I understand…it’s O.K., I’ll pray for you. That is not Christian love.

      I’d put my ethical virtue up against your any day of the week, but really that misses the point. I really don’t want you to pat me on the head (and man is that unbelievably condescending). I want you to go away. You bring nothing here of substance. Since what I want and what happens are not always in lockstep, undoubtedly you will continue to come back and annoy folk anyways, and good luck with you for that, as you certainly aren’t helping the cause of Christianity with your behavior here.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    there is nothing that sounds as moronic as an athiest telling a Christian that they must repent. An athiest/Bible scholar is an oxymoron. I’ll use the Holy Spirit as my council, not you-thanks anyway.

    On your Oct. 30, 2009 entry you stated, “…I got saved after reading the ‘Satan Seller’ myself my freshman year in college in ’77.”

    “Though it took a couple of years more, I finally saw through the errors and contradictions that permeates the Bible and Christianity, and got “unsaved”.

    You were exposed to Christian teachings as early as 1968. I’ll buy that. What I don’t buy is your claims to be a devout witness. If you truly believed what you preached, you never would have got “unsaved”-whatever that means. By the way, how do you get “unsaved”?
    That sounds as rdiculous as saying an egg gets unfried.

    Maybe you missed a step or two when you claimed to have gotten saved. I don’t see how you went through the proper steps of becoming a Christian by reading the ‘Satan Seller’. Did you come under conviction of your sins, repent of those sins, recognize that only the blood of Christ could cover those sins, ask Christ to forgive you of your sins, and invite Him into your life as Lord and Savior?

    People who believe exactly who Christ is, and follow the proper steps do not get “unsaved.”
    So, maybe you got caught up in sensationalism, and tried to substitute that for what actually getting saved entails. Therefore your house was built on shifting sand, instead of on solid rock. Then when the storms came, your house did not stand, just as Christ’s parable said would happen. Perhaps you did not understand what being saved really means, and since then you have tried to deny Christ because no one ever told you the difference between sensationalism and salvation. Just a guess. I may be wrong, but what I do know is this: People who have Christ revealed to them by the Spirit of God cannot get unsaved. And they cannot go on to say that He was never God, or that his bones have turned to dust, as ours will. If you have always believed that, you never knew the real Jesus.

    By the way, it might distress you to know that we do agree on certain things. Jimmy Carter is a moron, and abortion is wrong. We also agree that many, if not most of the televangelists are indeed phony. We agree that there are many false denominations such as the “Word of Faith” people who believe that they can make God obey everything they command Him to do in Jesus’ name. Benny Hinn and his phony “slaying in the spirit’ cons are baloney. I also agree that I am not an intellect. That is an important part of atheism, not Christianity. The Bible says those who professed to be wise became fools.

    The difference is that I know that Christ will survive all the phony preachers, athiests, agnostics, etc, etc. just as He has done for the last 2000 plus years.

    • LRA

      “I also agree that I am not an intellect.”

      Indeed.

      • Jabster

        … and apparently the pope is known to wear silly hats.

      • yahweh

        File this under the heading “water is wet”

    • Elemenope

      The Bible says those who professed to be wise became fools.

      God forbid you learn about what you are talking about.

      Literally.

      • JohnMWhite

        Now this had me laughing. :)

    • Relles Natas

      Terry,

      Though I am indeed troubled by abortion, in an ideal world women would have access to affordable, safe birth control and family planning materials, along with health care, and condoms would be universally used to prevent unwanted pregnancy, as if the dangers of STDs are not enough. But perhaps the only thing I wrote above which was intended to be ironic was when I called Jimmy Carter the devil. I actually like the man. I admire his humanitarianism, and his constant advocacy for the poor and downtrodden. Even in 1980 I was conflicted by the sudden marriage of right-wing politics with the Christian church. I have only become more so in the decades since.

      Now, you wrote “By the way, how do you get ‘unsaved’? That sounds as rdiculous as saying an egg gets unfried.”

      Well, what if, even though an egg believed it had been fried and there were other eggs which also believed they had been fried, but a few of the eggs– while rolling around in the frying pan and exploring it, trying to learn everything about it as well as the fire which was said to roar beneath it, creating the heat which did the “frying”– in order to convince other eggs to jump in the pan themselves and be fried as well– what if once in a while an egg discovered that there was no heat in the pan and no fire roaring underneath? What if no frying was actually going on at all? And what if furthermore that the egg discovered that its function was not to be fried in the first place but to hatch? And so its shell broke open, and out came a little chick, which in time grew strong wings and feathers, and flew away?

      Might not that bird be amazed at how many eggs continued to roll around in that frying pan convinced that there was a fire under the pan heating it so that they had been fried, but the birds from their new vantage point could see that not only was the fire not there, and the pan was actually cold, and the eggs which were convinced they were fried were still just eggs? Do you believe that the only things an egg CAN be is either just an egg in a shell or fried? I think so.

      You think the only truth is the fire, and that the fire comes through the pan, and that the pan cooks the eggs. So if some egg which believed that it had been fried, had confessed publicly that it had been fried, and tirelessly encouraged other eggs to be fried– if that egg later came to the conclusion that since the pan was not even hot and therefore either fire did not create enough heat, or perhaps the fire did not even exist, that neither it nor any of the other eggs had actually been fried? Might not the other eggs tell that egg that it is either a liar or just doesn’t know how to get fried? Isn’t that basically what you are telling me?

      But the purpose of eggs is not to be fried, Terry, but to hatch. And we have hatched, Terry, while you roll continue to roll around in the pan believing in fire which does not exist, claiming to feel heat which cannot be felt, claiming to be fried when you are not. You just think you are. Now, we may not all be the same species of birds. I for instance, do not call myself an atheist. You say that I am. I, on the other hand keep my bead firmly on the wire. For all I know, there may be some god or gods out there who created the Universe, but it cannot be the god described in the Bible. Because I have studied the book and it is just too full of holes to be entirely believed. And if it cannot be entirely believed, then how are we to determine which parts are to be believed, when our eternal souls depend on split hairs and dogmatism based upon correctly understanding it?

      So you’re not going to convert anyone here, Terry, and we’re certainly not going to change your mind with all of our “reprobate-mind-induced blasphemy”, so the sooner you decide once-and-for-all to really shake the dust of this thread off of your feet and leave us to our well-deserved eternities in Hell, the sooner I’ll stop getting email notifications informing me that you continue to post, and I can be done with these same, old, tired, stupid, off-the-shelf arguments of yours that I used to spit out myself, before I knew better, and which I have heard a thousand times since leaving the faith, and expect to hear a thousand times more– only please, for the love of GAWD, just not anymore from you. OK? Because I can go on as long as you can. And I make an awfully lot more sense, reprobate mind or no.

  • Terry

    “I also agree that I am not an intellect.” Einstein, Bell, Edison, GW Carver, King Solomon, The Apositle Paul, Marie Curie….these are people of intellect. The problem with most athiests who self-proclaim themselves to be intellects is they think they are smarter than God, or who put themselves in a position of authority equal or greater than God.

    Jeremiah 8:9-the wise will be put to shame, they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the Lord what kind of wisdom do they have.

    Paul states in 1 Corinthians 1:17-Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

    • Jabster

      “… is they think they are smarter than God, …”

      Please explain why it’s possible to think that you’re smarter that something which doesn’t exist. Do you think you’re smarter than Allah or Zeus?

      Please explain why you think quoting Bible verses at non-believers is somehow convincing?

      Please explain what you mean by random chance?

      Please explain why it’s ok to blasheme other gods but not the myths you believe in.

      Please explain why you thought you had to mention you’re not an intellect?

    • trj

      I see two options:

      1) You’re convinced that atheist actually do believe in God but are too proud to admit it.

      2) You think atheists compare themselves to something which they don’t believe exists.

      Either way, your statement is foolish. I agree with you – you’re not an intellect.

  • Terry

    Elemenope,
    “you bring nothing here of substance” Really? I did not realize there was “substance” in an atheist blog that blaspheme’s God. Denying Christianity is really valued substance-if you are a reprobate

    • Elemenope

      Then why are you here? You obviously aren’t here to witness effectively, so are you just getting your rocks off on chastising the unbelievers? Is this what you do instead of watching secular movies or listening to Satan’s music?

      • klidov

        perhaps he is here to teach us by Christ’s example…?

        ;)

    • LRA

      Denying The Flying Spaghetti Monster is really valued substance-if you are a reprobate.

      There, fixed that for ya.

    • Roger

      Then what the frak do you hope to accomplish with your idiotic ramblings?

      • Custador

        Nothing. Terry’s a dick who likes to hear himself rattle.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    I asked you how does a true believer, (which you claimed to be) get unsaved? The real intent is to show you that you could never have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, and acknowledged the Bible to be written by men under the power of the Holy Spirit? These are necessary beliefs for salvation.

    So you really did not get “unsaved” becuse you were never truly saved. No one who believes what you do about Christ and the Bible could never have believed what is necessary to be saved in the first place.

    So, why don’t you just come to terms with the truth, and admit your story about getting saved 30 years ago is phony? Do you believe that lie makes you a more credible non-believer? By the way, people who do not believe the God of the Bible does not exist is an athiest.Claiming you are not an athiest is as phony as you claiming to be a former Christian.

    Telling an incoherent story about an egg rolling around in a pan only shows me that the only thing that got fried is your brain.

    • Kodie

      You’re not truly saved either. That’s how anyone who believes they were saved gets “unsaved.” They figured out there’s no Jesus and that he’s imaginary and doesn’t have the powers to save anyone in the first place. You can believe it, and I believe Relles believed it before, he just doesn’t anymore and you still do. You’re having a disconnect because you think he was not a true believer because you think Jesus has something to do with that and he doesn’t. Is that clear enough for you now?

      • trj

        Doesn’t matter, Kodie. The mere possibility that you could have a profound belief in God/Jesus and then later simply change your mind is too scary for Terry to contemplate. It’s easy enough for you and me to understand that people can change their minds, but Terry refuses to acknowledge this when it comes to his belief, so he’ll continue to deny this possibility, the same as he will continue to claim that he knows better than Relles what Relles used to belive.

        • Kodie

          I liked the story about the egg, but I could tell it was too deep for Terry from the get-go.

    • Relles Natas

      Terry,

      When my kids were little, they sometimes became scared that a monster was hiding under their bed or in their closet. By some strange coincidence, when I was little I also often became convinced that a monster was hiding under my bed or in my closet as well. In fact, I remember some nights being filled with such stark terror that I just knew if I were to let my foot or hand dangle over the edge of the bed, or if I breathed too loudly, or made any noise at all, that monster would jump out and grab me and that would be it. Sometimes I would be so scared I would take the insane risk of not only dangling my foot off the bed, but jumping out of it entirely, and actually running down the hall to my parents’ room. Other times I would scream out for my mom, and she would get up and come to my room. Most times I would just lie there as still as I could, for a very long time, following my rules of not moving, or letting my hands or feet dangle over the bed, or breathing too loudly, or making any kind of noise at all, so that the monster might not know I was there.

      But I’ll never forget what my mom would always tell me if I did run for help or call out. She would say, “Now son, I’m almost 50 years old (she was 44 when I was born), and in all those 50 years, I’ve never seen a single monster. Now I’m afraid of spiders, so that’s why I spray the basement for them, and I’m afraid of lightning, so that’s why we always go downstairs when there’s a bad storm. And I’m afraid of bad people, and that’s why we lock our doors at night. But we don’t have to be afraid of monsters under the bed or in the closet, because there aren’t any there. There aren’t such things as monsters”.

      And she would get on the floor and shine the flashlight under my bed, and open the door to the closet and turn on the light, and sure enough there were never any monsters, but sometimes she would still have to lie down beside me because I wasn’t quite sure, until I fell asleep.

      Now, I no longer believe in monsters. And so when my own kids had the same kinds of fears when they were littler that I did, and they would come running into our bedroom, or call out in the night, I would say to them, “Listen, I’m almost 50 years old. When I was a little boy your age, I used to be scared there were monsters under my bed and in my closet too. But I never actually saw one. And grandma would always tell me she hadn’t seen one in almost 50 years before that, so that’s almost 100 years of nobody in our whole family ever seeing any monsters. That’s because there aren’t such things as monsters. You just watched a scary show tonight, that’s all”. Now, I don’t spray for spiders. Instead, I let big mamma wolf spiders run around all over the place downstairs because I know they don’t bite people unless you really ask for it by hurting them somehow. You can pick them up, hold them. Even if they do bite you, I hear it hurts like crazy, but they’re not poisonous. Instead, I let them do what they do best– hunt down and eat every brown recluse and black widow they might find, which are the only spiders around here you have to be afraid of, because they are poisonous, and while I see lots of wolf spiders, I’ve only ever seen one brown recluse in over 15 years living in this house. My kids know all that, so I never said anything to them about being afraid of spiders. And because I also know the chances of getting hit by lightning are pretty low, and even though we live in tornado alley we don’t go in the basement unless the whistles blow, so I never said anything about that, either.

      But I would tell them that there were things like fires to be afraid of, so if the smoke alarms went off in the night they had to remember to open the windows and get out of the house and go to our meeting place. And I also told them I did believe in bad people, because I’d seen bad people (especially that one in the bus station bathroom in Harrisburg, PA), and that was why they were never to go with strangers, even if they had candy or puppies, and they also knew that was why we locked our doors at night. And I would promise them that if a bad person ever did break into our house and try to hurt them, he would have to come through me first. At the same time I would always remind them that we live in a very safe, small town where lots of people don’t even lock their doors at night, and that never in as many years as nobody in the family has seen any monsters, neither have any bad people ever broken into anyone’s house around here and hurt them.

      If necessary, I would shine the flashlight under the bed, and turn on the light in the closet. And then they would go to sleep.

      So, did I ever believe in monsters? Yes, most definitely. Was I terrified of those monsters? Absolutely. Did my imagination create all kinds of scenarios in which those monsters were going to tear me limb from limb and/or eat me? Quite vividly, in fact. But did those monsters ever exist? Never. Did my believing in them make them exist? No. Does my not believing in them now mean I couldn’t have believed in them then? Well, now we’re in your expert territory, so you tell me. Am I some kind of hypocrite, liar, reprobate mind, or ignorant moron because I no longer believe monsters exist even though I believed they did back then? Again, as you’re the Einstein of such theoretical lines of questioning, I must defer judgement on such matters to you.

      Did you ever believe in monsters, Terry? Do you believe in them now? Do they still hide under your bed and in your closet? Did they then? Did believing in them or not make them exist or not? Does not believing in them mean they could still exist, but you just don’t believe in them anymore, so they just leave you alone? Or do you just believe in demons and devils, and angels and three-in-one gods who don’t exist, and never have, whether we beleive they do/did or not?

      I do pity you, Terry. I feel so sad for you. Really, really sad. You should feel it. You say you read ‘The Satan Seller’ around the same time I did? So you’re somewhere around 50? And you’re no smarter than this? A mind, as they say, is indeed a terrible thing to waste.

      And you’re the one who brought eggs into the discussion, buddy. Did you decide you didn’t want to talk about eggs after all?

      • beyonddeities

        Maybe he really likes watching ‘Supernatural’? Its like Republicans and ’24.’

        • Elemenope

          I watch that show. It’s fun.

    • Jabster

      “By the way, people who do not believe the God of the Bible does not exist is an athiest.”

      So Hindus are athiests then?

      • Custador

        “By the way, people who do not believe the God of the Bible does not exist is an athiest.” [emphasis mine].

        Actually I think those are called Christians or sometimes Jews….

        • MissDid

          Well, technically, Jews don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah.

          But, then, neither do you.

    • yahweh

      @Terry – Please answer the following question:
      How do we know you are saved? Since you don’t believe Relles’ “testimony”, then your “testimony” will not suffice. Please present evidence of your salvation that is observable.

  • Terry

    yahweh,
    my testimony will be the apostiles creed. Tell me how you can believe this creed, then throw it away as foolishness. I can understand NEVER believing the creed, but never renouncing it.

    I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
    maker of Heaven and earth;
    And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord:
    who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
    born of the Virgin Mary,
    suffered under Pontias Pilate,
    was crucified, dead, and buried;
    the third day he rose from the dead;
    he ascended into heaven,
    and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
    from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness og sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and the life everlasting.
    AMEN

    • Elemenope

      Tell me how you can believe this creed, then throw it away as foolishness.

      When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

      …that’s how.

    • yahweh

      “Tell me how you can believe this creed, then throw it away as foolishness.”

      Simple, the same way I believed in Santa Claus as a child then as I matured I realized he was not real.
      You are making this too easy Terry.

    • yahweh

      By the way Terry, your creed still does not prove to me that you are saved. In fact your evidence of salvation is far from as convincing as Relles’ testimony of de-conversion.

    • claidheamh mor

      Tell me how you can believe this creed, then throw it away as foolishness.

      By believing it, and studying it, and noticing (more like having it hit me in the face) how it goes against both facts and other beliefs such as:
      *the equality of people and their right to determine their own life (as opposed to “being subject to their husband” and “keeping silence in the churches”)
      *honesty with oneself and with others
      *natural, innate ethics

      Seeing the bible line about how you can curse the father and son but if you curse the “holy spirit”, it’s forever , and thinking, ‘So if I think “Fuck the holey spirit”, I’m done for forever?…. OOOoops!’

      The feeling awful: How come everyone is playing on this sunny day at the pool and I feel worthless and damned? (You know, good kids who wonder about saying “fuck the holy spirit”)

      Noticing at the age of 17 the breathtaking statement by Paul that “I never thought of a lot of nasty things until you went and put them in my head” – right there in the bible! The church was doing that to me, and they *never* saw themselves in that line. I haven’t found it again, and I’m not about to read the damn bible again, so somebody post it here it you know it.

      The nasty view of how humans are born evil and have to have ethics forced on them. Just go look at a nasty, evil baby. Eeeevil. (/sarcasm)

      The constant squeezing and distorting and ignoring of facts into a Procrustean bed to fit the bible, until finally realizing that maybe the facts win, and the bible loses, having little or nothing to do with the facts.

      So the answer to “how?” isn’t “Easy!” – because dragging yourself out of a pit of damaging beliefs isn’t easy. But it’s easy in the sense that getting away from any set of beliefs that is innately harmful to human well-being is easy. And necessary to you well-being. Facts and the need to become fully human will pull us away.

      I can understand NEVER believing the creed, but never renouncing it.

      Some people never do believe it, but I could *easily* understand renouncing it. I did it, so have many others who have posted about doing the same, and so do others with self-awareness and reason and belief in human rights, human value, and becoming fully human. That is, humans have rights, humans are equal in rights, humans have ethics, humans are not born evil with some need to have a rigid set of “morality” forced on them.

      (I cannot bring myself to call the bible or christianity a set of “ethics”. It is one of the most unethical, stunting ways to program humans.)

  • Terry

    Jabster, you got that right. Hindus do not believe in the Triune God who is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. One God, in three distinct persons-the trinity. Jews are not athiests because they do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, but they do believe that Messiah will come. There are many instances of Jews who were filled with the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.

    Muslims believe their God is Allah, not the Trinity-Jehovah Yahweh, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

    Mormons believe that Jesus was the spirit brother of Lucifer, not one of the Trinity equal with God.

    • yahweh

      “There are many instances of Jews who were filled with the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament.”

      Obvisously not enough of them were filled since the jews didn’t recognize jesus as the messiah. God really has a problem picking friends. The jews were supposedly god’s chosen people (chosen by the jews themselves as they wrote the majority of the OT). But yet god has never been able to keep them under control. From adam to the flood to the tower of babel, god’s chosen people were constantly pissing him off. Even when he sent his son to save mankind, the jews didn’t believe (and still don’t believe) he was the messiah. I just find this amusing. Especially in light of the crap you hear from xians (fundies mainly) that god isn’t finished dealing with Isreal. All just a pathetic attempt to fit historical facts into the framework of the bible and their narrow world-view.

    • Siberia

      *facedesk* Muslims believe the same god you do. They just, like the jews, don’t agree Jesus is a/the Messiah simply because he said so.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    No, I did not ask about you trying to fry an egg in a frying pan. I stated that unfrying an egg makes about as much sense as getting “unsaved”

    I have never been to, or ever heard of a church that has one altar for getting saved, and another for getting unsaved. I do believe we are to be accountable or we will have a world ruled by anarchy. That’s what athiests want, a world where they can do as they please without having to answer for their sins. That’s why athieism is a moral choice, not an intellectual choice.

    You say “a mind is a terrible thing to waste” I agree. Worse, much worse, the soul is a horrible thing to waste. I too was terrified of monsters. I feared the dark. One night my parents also shined a light that took away my fears. Instead of shining the light under my bed, they used the Bible and shined the light in my soul. They told me not to fear the one’s who can kill the body, but fear only the one who can kill the soul.

    The saddest part of your story is this: you did not want your children to fear a non-existent monster, but you were totally unconcerned about their eternal security. Monsters will be nothing compared to the anguish and suffering those who reject God will face for eternity.

    Many athiests in this blog tell me that God is a terrible God to sentence people to Hell. In all honesty, all God is doing is respecting the non-believers wish. They have no use for God, and they certainly prefer Hell to eternal peace and happiness with God.

    What non-believers do not understand is that life totally without God is Hell. They think they are living apart from Him now, and things will be the same after they die. Not so. Satan is not the ruler of Hell, nor will he ever be. Hell was created by God for Satan and his followers.
    It is not a “good ol’ boys club” as many hope it to be.

    You may be living apart from God now, but not until you die will He be living apart from you.
    That, is a state I hope to help prevent you and your friends from experiencing.

    • Elemenope

      I do believe we are to be accountable or we will have a world ruled by anarchy. That’s what athiests want, a world where they can do as they please without having to answer for their sins. That’s why athieism is a moral choice, not an intellectual choice.

      It is this belief, more than any other, that causes you to fail. When you willfully (or through ignorance) misunderstand your interlocutors, your points will fall on deaf ears if not draw outright derision.

      Also, atheist is an exception to the “I-before-E-except-after-C” rule, because it is a loan word from Greek. That would also help.

      • yahweh

        Fail in a mighty way.

        • Roger

          His fail is an awesome fail.

    • yahweh

      “In all honesty, all God is doing is respecting the non-believers wish”

      So Terry, this is your idea of free will that we supposedly have with god. That is not free will. That is a choice, door #1 or door #2. By the way, the wrong door you send you to eternal torment. In fact, either choice will send us to somewhere that has not been, nor ever will be proved to exist. Free will would allow us to believe as we see fit with no consequences other than those as a direct result of our actions.

    • Relles Natas

      Why don’t you just admit that you have no idea what you are talking about?

      “Many athiests in this blog tell me that God is a terrible God to sentence people to Hell”

      First, you can’t even spell atheist. So I don’t imagine you can spell theology either. But the fact of the matter is– a person who knows god doesn’t exist also doesn’t think diddly ABOUT god. Now, an atheist might tell you that a god WOULD be a terrible god IF he/she/it/they existed AND were to sentence people to Hell. I’m not going to go try to tell somebody who believes he owns a unicorn anything about his “animal”– for instance that he isn’t trimming its hooves correctly, or taking proper care to avoid being stabbed by its horn or anything else. I’m going to try to get away from a person who believes he owns a unicorn. Because unicorns DON’T EXIST. So does that make me an a-unicornist? No, it means that something that doesn’t exist isn’t real, so to argue about particular atributes about that thing which doesn’t exist is either playing fantasy or being delusional. I’m thinking door number two for you,Terry.

      Sorry Terry. There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that a god exists. Now if you could show me a book, say, that was 3,000 years old, and that book made certain claims about such a god, and that book was internally consistent in what it said about that god, and was not full of both subtle and glaring contradictions and errors, then a person who claimed to base his faith in the god described in that book might be able to say he had a nail on which to hang some beliefs. Or the first rung on a ladder. But you have neither.

      There is no book like that. You can cut and paste verses from this book and that book to make your Bible say anything you want it to. But anyone who studies the WHOLE THING, and becomes expert in it, will not emerge from the process a believer in it as the word of any omniscient or omnipotent god. The Old Testament, in fact, is nearly incoherent as a result of its convoluted absurdities. The god of the Old Testament appears not only to be bipolar, but also suffers from a severe case of personality disorder, and seems to be unable to make up his mind whether he wants man to be fruitful and multiply or be destroyed from the face of the earth.

      The New Testament is slightly less problematic in terms of internal coherence– because the time frame covered by it is much shorter, and it took place in the historical era when real historians actually existed who wrote things down instead of relying on oral tradition. But still there are glaring inconsistencies between the various gospel accounts on everything from such simple questions as how many demoniacs Jesus encountered at the cemetary or where the cemetary was even located, to more serious ones like what day Jesus and the disciples ate the last supper, what day Jesus was then crucified, or how many days and/or nights did he stay in the tomb before the resurrection. If you can’t get that part right, what part can you? Then there is the unresolved struggle between Paul and James over the law versus grace– which is just left to dangle off into nowhere in the decades leading to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem as the Jewish followers of Jesus and the Gentile followers of Jesus separated into two alienated churches (not one catholic one), and in terms of doctrine introduced what is probably the most fatal flaw into any hope for a cohesive belief system emerging from the New Testament.

      The Bible is just plain bunk. Impure and simple. It’s garbage in, and so it’s garbage out. Who could believe in a god whose supposed proof of himself– his word– is such a joke?

      And the Nicene Creed? Have you ever seen what goes on at a sausage factory, Terry? The Council of Nicea was a sausage factory. By that time the so-called Christian church was already divided between the Catholics and the Orthodox, the Jewish believers were long gone, and the Bride of Christ had long slipped into 1400 years of fatal error, from which god was apparently unable to extract it at any time, FOR any time. The Jews only had to wander the wilderness with Moses for 40 years, and the church stayed in the unsaved darkness of error (and terror) for 1400 years till Martin Luther showed up?

      Your god is a fluff ball, Terry. I do not fear his hell.

  • Terry

    Elemenope,
    you left out the part of Scripture,”I reasoned as a child…’ You still reason as a child. Actually, children have a better perspective on God than you. That is why Jesus said, “Unless you become a child, you can never see the kingdom og God.”

    • Elemenope

      It blows my mind just how many times you contradicted yourself in that short passage.

    • beyonddeities

      That is some flawless logic right there ladies and gentlemen.

    • claidheamh mor

      @terry: you left out the part of Scripture,”I reasoned as a child…’ You still reason as a child. Actually, children have a better perspective on God than you. That is why Jesus said, “Unless you become a child, you can never see the kingdom og God.”

      Parrots can speak words too.
      Somebody *stop* this nut from impersonating a reasoning human being.

  • Terry

    Custador,
    Saying Christians and Jews are athiests is like saying you are a Christian or a Jew

    • Elemenope

      Pretty sure he was just pointing out your apparently shaky grasp of negation rules in the English language.

  • Terry

    Elemenope,
    What is that name short for, Elementary Dope? Fear not, you have yet to show you have understood anything so far anyway. You may want to trade some of that intellect for wisdom.

    • Elemenope

      The notion that a person has to turn their brain off in order to find truth is only appealing to those who were never comfortable thinking in the first place.

      And people who get headaches.

      Which are you?

      • yahweh

        My vote is for the former for Terry.

    • trj

      Translation for non-Christians:

      You should gain some wisdom = you should accept Jesus.

      Not to be confused with the traditional meaning of the word wisdom.

    • Custador

      There’s no wisdom like silence, Terry. I think you should practice that a while.

    • Roger

      Thor’s balls! Terry is still prattling on about his imaginary sky friend? Oh, and point of information, Ter, “Allah” is the Arabic word for “God”–they worship the same vengeful, petty, spiteful, vindictive, megalomaniacal deity you do. And if you think your 3-in-1 deity who had himself get himself killed to appease himself for a blunder he made but yet blamed on the blunder he made makes more sense than the pantheon of Hindu deities, then there really isn’t much more point in engaging you.

    • VidLord

      “trade some of that intellect for wisdom” = “trade some of that ‘god given’ reason for feelings and emotion. That’s the way it works. Feelings….

  • Terry

    Siberia,
    sorry…Allah is not the god of the Old and New Testament. Believe what you want. Facts and accountability are not part of your morality.

    • Elemenope

      It’s funny, the Jews say the same thing about your so-called God.

    • Siberia

      sorry…Allah is not the god of the Old and New Testament.

      Believe what you want to believe, luv. That’s what you’re good at, no? Facts be damned.

      Facts and accountability are not part of your morality.

      Because you know soooo much about me.

      That’s ok, though. I’d rather be a moral-less heathen than be coerced into morality out of fear of skydaddy. Some of us have matured beyond the praise/punishment phase, dude.

    • VidLord

      Terry: “Allah is not the god of the Old and New Testament.”

      Ahh yes the god of the old testament. The god who makes laws and later breaks them. Primitive man innately worshiped that of which he was most afraid. He was a god of wrath, like zeus, whose voice was heard in the thunderclaps and who rocked the earth with his displeasure. Laws were but divine whims to be changed at divine pleasure, and as diversified as divine moods. None dared to question the right of god to elevate one man and debase another for the same deed. While entire races languished in the benighted state of savagery, this god concerned himself with the number of bells on the petticoats of his high priests or the type of smoke offered to him or who touched his golden box. He would cast down a rebellious people who insist on making altars round in form when he desires them square.

      It is sad to see some of us still worshiping the god of antiquity – a god that partakes so abundantly of human frailties that we can almost truthfully declare that we understand him.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    it’s good to see that the real you is beginning to emerge. You state that there is absolutely no evidence that a god exists. Earlier, in a previous comment you said that you never said you were an atheist. Aren’t you glad you aren’t living that lie anymore?

    In Paris there is a monument to the Huguenots showing an anvil and a number of broken hammers, with the inscription, “Hammer away ye hostile bands. Your hammers break: God;s anvil stands.”

    Ol’ Rellas. The non-believer/Bible expert. And you think God is bipolar? If this is true, you and God are a lot more alike than you would like to admit. I think you suffer from schizophrenia, not manic depression.

    Schizoid characteristics include separation of the intellect from the emotions, inappropriate emotional reactions, and distortions in normal logical thought processes. You just said that because there is no God, you don’t think diddly ABOUT God. Yet you claim to be a former Christian, and even worse, you claim to be an expert on the Bible. If you do not suffer distortions in normal logical thought processes (as many schizoid’s do), how do you explain how someone who doesn’t think diddly about God because he does not exist (ergo nothing can be thought about an entity that has never existed) can spend hundreds of hours studying a Bible that centers around the God in whom you say never existed.

    That, my Savior’s unworthy opponent, is schizophrenia in every psychiatrist’s medical journal.

    • Roger

      Well, Ter, you’re so confident in the existence of your petty, vengeful, spiteful skydaddy; do us a solid and give us horrid, schizoid atheists some proof of the existence of your petty, vengeful, spiteful skydaddy. We will not accept any tautologies or solipsisms, nor will we accept any ad hominem attacks–arguing that I or anyone else is deficient isn’t proof positive of your skydaddy’s existence. Arguments for your skydaddy’s existence won’t do; provide proof–incontrovertible, undeniable proof.

      • John C

        I love you Roger. Even though you’ve never spoken a kind word to me…ever, just the opposite, have called me every name in the book, have ridiculed me, slandered me, despised me, and for what? You would spit on me if you could.

        Love is alive friend and He loves you.

        How much more proof do you need?

        • Roger

          Oh, quit whining, get your pretentious ass off the cross, and stop it with the pedantic spiritbabble.

          • John C

            Love is the evidence you seek, if you seek at all.

            • Roger

              Blah, blah, blah…

    • Elemenope

      ROFL. You just continually top yourself. If you were performance art, pretentious people might even pay money to see it.

      • Jabster

        @Elem

        Just imagine Terry saying his speeches in a French accent … occasionally pausing to inhale on his fag.

        • Elemenope

          I prefer to imagine that William Shatner is reading his posts like a beat poem.

          • Jabster

            The sheer idiocy of some of Terry’s arguments makes it hurt even to read them … 91% of Americans believe in the Christian god so it must be true. Just what sort of argument is that?

            • Elemenope

              The kind of argument that persuades 91% of Americans?

            • Jabster

              Not exactly raising the bar very high there!

    • Aton

      Funny that is. I was always under the impression one could think about imaginary beings….

    • Relles Natas

      The “real” me is starting to emerge? Are you kidding?

      I’ve hidden nothing here. You expect to understand everything about another human being, everything he thinks, everything he’s done, everything he “is”, from a few, brief comments on a website? How typically shallow of your ilk. It would take you fifty years and approximately ten months to know the “real” me, Terry, and I don’t think you could keep up with all the cognitive activity along the way. Because that’s how long I’ve been alive– playing, working, studying, learning about this world and how it works, its various cultures and religions, science, and whatever else I can discover about the Universe. And yes, the time I spent believing in god played a very important role– I certainly wouldn’t be who I am right now without it having happened. But I probably know far more about the “real” you than you do about the “real” me, Terry. That’s because I’ve known so many like you, lived with them, fellowshipped with them, broke bread with them, preached the gospel with them, and studied the Bible with them. But you seem to have a particularly limited knowledge of others yourself. Your limited knowledge comes from the narrow path. You have chosen to close your eyes, and it shows.

      OK then Terry. I’ll type really, really slowly and occasionally use BIG LETTERS so you can follow along here:

      1. At one time– not now Terry, but another time, in THE PAST– between 30-40 years ago, I came under the influence of a number of individuals and groups in succession who either assured me of certain things about the Bible, or introduced me to books which said certain things about what the Bible supposedly said. I did not ask them to do this. I did not seek any of it. It simply happened. Slowly, I began to understand the “big Bible picture” as it was being portrayed to me. Being young, naive, and never having read it myself (YET, AT THAT TIME. I DID LATER. SEE BELOW), at some point I began to BELIEVE what was being portrayed to me, but for a number of years was not ready to RECEIVE it.

      2. At a certain time– not now Terry, but another time, in THE PAST– in the fall of 1977 to be exact, I got on my knees, acknowledged my state-of-sinfulness (a Biblical concept which I NO LONGER believe but DID THEN), acknowledged that Jesus had paid for my sins (a Biblical concept which I NO LONGER believe but DID THEN), asked Jesus into my heart (a Biblical concept in which I NO LONGER believe), and make me a new creature, saved by grace through faith, and not by works lest any man should boast (all Biblical concepts in which I NO LONGER believe, but DID THEN). I began to serve the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Biblical concepts in which I NO LONGER believe but DID THEN), was baptized shortly thereafter in their names (a Biblical practice I NO LONGER believe in, but DID THEN), and began to diligently read and study the Bible (both on my own, and in an organized setting with a campus group), and preach to others what had been preached to me.

      3. Within days, perhaps that very night, because I do not remember when for sure– however, it was NOT NOW Terry, it was another time, in THE PAST– but I know it was shortly after I (believed AT THAT TIME) “got saved”– I found my first earth-shaking Bible “issue”– “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5) Now, having not yet BEEN baptized (til December), but having been assured by most (except the Catholics, Mormons, and Church of Christ) that baptism wasn’t necessary to get to heaven, it was just an act of obedience– I ran down the hall of my dorm wing immediately to consult with the Christians who lived there, who had played a role in my “getting saved”, along with everything else that had happened UP TO AND INCLUDING reading the Warnke book. I wasn’t doubting the Bible at that point, I was doubting the teaching of the church and all the Christians. If the Bible said you had to be born of water and the Spirit, but the church just said you had to be born of the Spirit, then the church was wrong, right?

      But my brothers assured me, however, that being “born of water” referred to the breaking of a woman’s “water” during birth (though this does not always occur), not baptism– and so not only was I greatly relieved, but little did I know that I had just experienced a thing very common with people who ACTUALLY read the Bible and believe it has no errors or contradictions– the need for constant INTERPRETATION.

      4. Now, it wasn’t until SOME TIME had passed– not NOW Terry, but another time, still all quite IN THE PAST– after I’d freaked out when I read the part where Jesus commanded you pluck the eye out and cut the hand off that made you sin (all meant to be quite symbolic, it turns out luckily! That Jesus– what a kidder!!)– I regularly continued to come across many other problematic passages in the Bible that caused me trouble. But with my growing collection of Bible translations, commentaries, handbooks, concordances, dictionaries, encyclopedias, atlases, Christian books, and the constant counsel of elders, etc, I was always able to “explain” every problem away. But one day after reading John 3:5 for the 100th time or so, I said, “Wait a minute. So Jesus is saying that unless you exist you can’t be saved? He actually took the time to make the point that only you, and not your imaginary friend, could be saved?” I mean, who hasn’t been born of a woman, after all? And does that mean cesarean sections go to hell?

      Why was Jesus always saying things that were so different than Paul? I mean, there’s no way you can get “saved by grace through faith and not by works” from the gospels. And no way you get taking the word to the gentiles from the gospels either. And why did Paul and James get into that horrible argument? And wishy-washy Peter, siding with James, then with Paul, then back with James again? Oh well. Interpret, interpret, interpret.

      5. So, over the course of the next four years– not NOW Terry, but another time, as in THE PAST– I continued my Bible study and preaching. I also began to read the Old Testament extensively as well, and though I was quite shocked at how differently Jesus behaved in those days than he did in the New Testament. A bunch of that stuff in Genesis is just plain whacky. A bunch of that stuff in Joshua is just plain blood-curdling. But I just kept on believing and interpreting, interpreting, interpreting as much as I could in order to keep believing. I could always find a way, but I was starting to wonder why god made it such hard work to cut and paste his word together.

      Then, the first major contradiction which no amount of counsel and explanation and interpreting, interpreting, interpreting could explain away was my discovery of the demoniac/demoniacs at the Gadarenes/Gerasenes problem (Mark 5 & Matthew 8). Now, if it just hadn’t been for that herd of pigs running down the hill and drowning in the lake after Jesus cast the demons into them, I could probably have convinced myself that Jesus had two different run-ins with three different demoniacs, each time after he just got out of a boat, and all of whom lived among tombs– then I could have explained the apparent discrepency in number of demoniacs and place. I was assured by nearly every Christian I consulted (and I consulted everybody) that since the verses in question didn’t have anything to do with salvation, I should just forget about it and god would show me in time what it meant. And I tried. I really tried. But I could never again fully believe the word of god had no errors. And even the slightest errors in the inerrant word of god were deeply troubling to me. But I found other, much more serious errors and contradictions in the Bible after that which did have to do with salvation, and other important doctrines. See, the more I read, the more familiar I became with the various parts. I kept filing examples to follow and not to follow, sins to avoid, commands to obey, promises to claim, truths about god, things to pray about, and difficulties to explore away in the back of my mind. But the shock of finding that first, unexplainable, un-interpretable contradiction will always stay with me. It hurt like my heart had been ripped out. I became depressed. I did a great deal of weeping. I read one of my roommate’s journals one day when he went for a walk and left it out. He said talking to me about the issue was “drying him out”. I didn’t want anyone else to go through what I was going through. But the point of no return had been passed. Slowly, the whole house of cards began to fall.

      Now normally, I don’t like to mess with people’s beliefs. If you’re happy with them, far be it from me to rock your boat. I really don’t wish for anyone else to go through the pain I went through during that horrible period when I lost my faith. The scars have still not fully healed. However, for you I’ll make an exception. If you wish, my Bible is right here by my right hand, and my Strong’s Concordance is here by my left, so if you want to throw down, I can begin looking up verses in Genesis, work forward, and see how well you do at interpreting, interpreting, interpreting. What say? Shall we have a go? Hint, hint. Nudge, nudge. Say no more!

      6. But whatever the case, Terry, now– yes Terry, right NOW, TODAY, AT THIS VERY MINUTE as opposed to THE PAST– I therefore no longer BELIEVE the Bible. I did THEN, in the PAST, when I was in fact a different person than I am now and did not KNOW the things about the Bible that I KNOW now. I DIDN’T KNOW THEN. DO NOW. Didn’t, THEN. Do, NOW. I believed it THEN, don’t believe it NOW. Got it?

      So you see, Terry, there is no “real me” for you to jump out and discover as you now appear to think you have done here, calling me in turn a liar, a hypocrite, a fake, a person who never believed, a person who just couldn’t figure out how to believe, a person who made up a story so he could come on here and argue with you. But I have nothing to hide– and I have hidden nothing. I have no reason to. I’ll share any period of my journey– from not believing something I didn’t even know about, to believing something I hadn’t even read, to learning about the thing I had come to accept as the inerrant word of god by intensive, constant study of it, to thereby finding out so much of it was crap that I COULD no longer believe in it, and so I DON’T. ANYMORE. But I DID THEN– IN THE PAST.

      You’re the paranoid one, Terry, looking for lies and the devil in everything– not me. I came to this site for the first time last fall when I wrote my first post above. I was channel-surfing TV before Halloween and saw a crazy 700 Club program where they were claiming that witches were casting spells over all the trick-or-treat candy so that little children who ate it would be possessed by demons or something, like those pigs and that/those demoniac/demoniacs at the Gadarenes/Gerasenes. So I thought, “Wow, that sounds like that craaazy Mike Warnke crap I read waaaay back in the day. I guess there’s still some craaaazy people out there who believe that Satan/demons crap. By the way, I wonder what’s up with old Mike Warnke? I hope he sat on a sharp fencepost and died slowly.” So I did a search, found this thread, and here I am, getting witch-hunted by a fundamentalist loop-job like you. Who’da thought?

      And finally, I said I DO NOT CALL MYSELF an atheist. You call me an atheist. You say that I am. But as I already tried to explain above, I do not call myself an a-unicornist simply because I do not believe in mythical, horse-like creatures with a horn on their forehead, either. It’s true I NEVER believed in unicorns. And I still don’t believe in them NOW. But I did believe in monsters under my bed and in my closet when I WAS LITTLE. And I believed in a deity later. Do you want to call me an a-monsterist NOW, Terry, along with atheist? I suppose you can if you want. But I see no reason to define myself using the negation of a concept which I no longer believe has a real existence, outside the imagination of delusional fools, though I DID believe in the thing AT ONE TIME. Wow, this could be fun. I’ll just think of everything I don’t believe in, and then figure out the negation of that concept using the prefix (a;an) which means “no, absence of, without, lack of, not” But I prefer to be called just plain old “rational dude”.

      Now Terry, the next time you post, I’m going to post my entire “testimony”, from the time I first got exposed to the gospel, through the various stages and experiences I went through thereafter, to when I got “saved”, and then the process I went through whereby I was forced to reach the difficult conclusion that the Bible was bunk, that there was no god, and so therefore no salvation, heaven, or hell, and there was no point in continuing to try to believe in something which was just so patently wrong. The dominoes have fallen; the house of cards has collapsed.

      And if you post again after that, I’m going to start before Genesis, then the Garden of Eden, Original Sin, the Flood, Exodus, Joshua, Judges, the rise of Saul, David, and Solomon, the period of the prophets (which I really kind of like) and finally I’ll shred the New Testament. So fire away, hermano. I’ve got better things to do, but you are an epic fail, and this is epic fun.

    • THE GOD

      Hi, Terry, I’m God. I’ve looked at your file and think you are going to be quite unhappy after you die. Well. I mean, what can I say to such a sanctimonious prick, harassing my real children. I hope you enjoy your delusions that you’re getting into heaven, but you most definitely are not welcome here after putting on the show like you did. Your space in hell has already been assigned and there is nothing you can say or do to beg. I don’t care if you do not believe I’m really God. I have never cared, not once in all eternity. I do not care what it says in the bible nor where it says it, because anyone who reads that and believes I wrote it has put words in my mouth. I am God! Why would I write such a piece of shit? That book don’t make no sense! I mean, have you read it? That book has made me look like a fool since the day someone sold it to the next guy as my work and made many people foolish besides. You do not do good works, you do not honor me at all. You are a fanboy of the worst sort.

      Anyway, the point is, there is a hell and you’re going to be there when you go. I hate people like you, I really do. Regardless, I don’t see myself in the role of doing anything about it particularly except not letting you into heaven. I didn’t make you who you are, you let yourself get sucked into a cult. No, you do not please me, Terry. You do not please God at all.

  • Terry

    Aton,
    Rellas is the one who brought that one up, not me

  • Terry

    Roger, revealing Rellas’ obvious schizoid delemma is not a reference to the Almighty’s existence. There are over 5,600 ancient texts that have been discovered, all which reveal the existence of our Lord. Unfortunately, no ancient texts have been shown to prove that God does not exist.

    Look up. Who created those billions of stars? What year is it. The majority of us will tell you 2010. 2010 from what? ……the birth of Jesus. Explain the complexities of DNA or RNA. No intelligent designer? Why is it that atheists for centuries have done everything they can to disprove God and destroy the Bible? Why do the atheists die, yet the Bible with the eternal Word of God survive your feeble attempts? Voltaire’s home is now the place where a Christian building now resides.
    Why is it that self-proclaimed “intelligent? atheists cannot even wipe out a Bible (which you claim is false) from existence.
    91% of Americans believe in the existence of God. Yet the 9% who claim there is no God must be right?
    You atheists are like the cow bird. You breathe God’s air, drink His water, eat the food He provides, then want to take over everything He created as if it has always been rightfully yours. It’s all take, and no giving for you atheists. Its all immorality and no accountability with you.

    • Roger

      Ter, your arguments are just that: arguments. If the Bible’s so “eternal” then would you care to explain the various councils that argued about what was going to go in it? And why, if it’s the “word of God,” it emerges out of one particular part of the world and, for much of it, seems quite preoccupied with only a specific group of people in that particular part of the world? Oh, and if it’s so “eternal”(and, in your feeble mind, perfect), reflecting the mind of a perfect being, why does it seem to reflect an entity that is, at best, vicious and capricious instead of all the attributes you assign to it?

      Arguing that “91% of Americans believe in God” isn’t proof that “God” exists–again, that’s an argument. You can’t even abide by my challenge. Here’s another: if your “god” exists, I challenge it to smite me dead by 12:30 a.m. eastern standard time. That’s ten minutes from now.

      • Roger

        For the record, it’s now 12:31 a.m., EST. Still alive and functioning quite well. Perhaps your deity is busy, Ter.

    • trj

      There are thousands of ancient texts that have been discovered, all of which reveal the existence of Shiva. Unfortunately, no ancient texts have been shown to prove that Shiva does not exist.

      You Christians all just pretend to not believe in Shiva so you can act all immoral and not be held accountable.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    I do want to clarify my position I made earlier about you. I did not mean to say you are suffering physically from schizophrenia. My intent was to show your spiritual schizophrenia traits. If you really are schizoid, please forgive me. I was not trying to ridicule an illness that you suffer. That would be cold-heearted. Sorry

    • Relles Natas

      Terry, your ignorance appears to know no depth. You just keep digging down deeper and deeper.

      Schizoid and schizophrenia are two, entirely different things.

      Schizophrenia is characterized most commonly by: auditory hallucinations (hearing noises and voices which are not there– i.e. the voice of god?), paranoid or bizarre delusions (i.e. that people with whom you are speaking are “hiding” something from you about themselves or that they are not who they say they are? Or that supernatural beings like gods, angels, devils, and demons exist and are out to get you?), or disorganized speech and thinking with significant social or occupational dysfunction (well, your gibberish is pretty disorganized, your thinking can hardly be characterized as “steel trap”, and you certainly are not getting along with many people here– how are things at the job? Much conflict?).

      If the shoe fits, then wear it. But thanks for the concern, anyway. Actually, I’m mostly just chronically depressed at the state of the world brought on by all you Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, and various fanatical political groups that are taking the species down like a millstone around our neck, by their backwards, primitive, tribal, centralist, holy warring ideologies of division. But hey, what can you do?

  • Terry

    Elementary Dope,
    “pretentious” is the shifting sand foundation of you atheists, not Christians. You pretend there is no God. Christians proclaim there is God. Yours is a lose/break even situation. When you die with your belief, you gain either eternally suffering in Hell, or return to nothing.
    When a Christian dies, he either gains eternal bliss with his Lord, or return to nothing. That is a win/break even. I like the Christian’s odds. That, for me is door #1.

    • JonJon

      Don’t make fun of the moderators. I’ll get grumpy and have to start reading this thread.

      • Elemenope

        Heh. Prolonged exposure might be toxic. Between the people claiming covens are rampantly sacrificing children and Terry, well, doing what he does, it got real.

        Really ridiculous.

    • Garrett

      So, Pascal, you pretend to believe in a supreme being (knowing deep down that it’s a ridiculous notion) just in case there is one?

    • trj

      Unfortunately for you, by hedging your bets on one particular god you’re also increasing your risk of eternal punishment if it’s the wrong god. If it turns out the Muslims are right all you Christians will go to Muslim Hell because you worshipped Jesus rather than Allah.

    • yahweh

      Terry, you’re still placing a bet that is 50/50 to return to what you were before you were born. For all your belief in your imaginary skydaddy, 50/50 are the best odds he can provide you with? Not very reassuring.

  • Terry

    Roger,
    God doesn’t settle all his accounts by 12:30

    • Roger

      Hm. Seems that “he” did for Elijah when he challenged the priests of Baal. Now. Quit with the crappy argumentation and present incontrovertible proof of the existence of your deity.

  • Terry

    Roger,
    councils held by men prove nothing. Gods Word did not need councils to survive. All the councils did were to verify texts that were basically written in Hebrew or within a time slot worthy of validation. Many texts written 200 years or more after Christs death were not admitted into sacred cannon.

  • Terry

    Roger,
    eliminating the false prophets of Baal did not settle all of God’s accounts. You gotta do better than that.

    • Roger

      So do you. Still waiting for your incontrovertible proof of your deity’s existence. Or for your deity to get off his arse and get on CNN.

  • Terry

    Abraham was called by God to be the father of a chosen nation. This chosen nation was to be a people who worshipped the one true God. At that time, the world was filled with peoples and nations worshipping only false gods.
    The Messiah was to come out of this chosen nation. His love for all mankind was why He allowed Himself to be beaten and crucified. Raising Himself from the dead made it possible for mankind to have eternal life with God. Dying for mankind is not vengence, hatred, vicious, etc. It is pure, agape love.
    John 3:17 says, for Christ came into the world NOT to condemn, but to save…

    • Roger

      Ok, now you’re just babbling…

    • Sunny Day

      “NOT to condemn, but to save…”

      He passes to Moses, he shoots, he SCORES!

    • Kodie

      Terry – It’s mighty convenient for the authors of the book to name themselves as “chosen” by the god who is the supposed author of the book. I mean, almost too convenient if you see what I’m saying, but I don’t think you have the mental faculties necessary to see what I’m saying since you’re a moron.

  • Terry

    Roger,
    your proof will unfortunately have to wait until you have your one-on-one with my Savior. I have nothing to prove. Like you, I once did not believe, and had to find truth for myself.
    I did not cop-out by demanding others to prove it to me. That’s your problem. You have nothing to gain and everything to lose with your arrogant,reprobate attitude.

    Why do you think that you are so great that you can tell God what to do? He will take you at His appointed time, not yours. He said that He will come like a thief in the night, when you least suspect it. I hope for your sake it is not at 12:50

    • Roger

      Save the self-righteous babble for someone else, Ter. Oh, and you have everything to prove. You’re the one who ran up in here with your self-righteous godbabble. It’s on you to prove your claims. And if all you’ve got is a vague, bullshit “threat” thinly veiled in your preening “hope,” well, you can take it stuff it in your colon.

  • Terry

    well, its time for bed. will someone please e-mail Rellas about my entry about him?

    • Jabster

      Serious question … did the comic Viz base its Terry character on you?

  • Cucumber

    I’m loving that we’re all on nickname-basis’ here.

  • Terry

    Rog,
    you seem to know alot about getting things stuffed in your colon. too bad you never stuffed anything in your brain.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    you merely parroted everything I previously described about your problem. Parroting can also be an issue with your symptoms. Still, your main source of delusion is that you still think you are an athiest/expert on Biblical interpretation. You don’t see that as a bizarre delusion?

    The Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union discussed the problem of Khrushchev. Brezhnev and others said: “He is an idiot. Let us get rid of him.” Podgornyi intervened: “But now it is possible to transplant organs. Let us transplant in him the brain of a genius.” The others consented.
    A surgeon was called. The operation was successfully completed. But it did not provide the expecterd result. They had forgotten about the phenomenon of rejection.
    The brain of the genius rejected Khrushchev.

    You keep trying to transplant the knowledge of Biblical interpretation into your brain. But the Holy Spirit rejects your idiotic ramblings.

    Schizoid/schizophrenia…potato/patato

  • Terry

    Sunny Day,
    interesting name for one who lives in darkness

  • Terry

    Jabster,
    it’s starting to make sense…your education came from comic books…is there random chance in Spider Man?

    • Jabster

      You don’t even know what random chance is do you Terry, yet you band it about as though it’s part of some killer argument (hint: it’s not) … here’s that list of questions that you’ve failed to answer. Now of course I don’t expect you to answer them as it’s gettting near to that time where you claim that you’re leaving only to reappear and start with the same set of blathering again.

      Please explain why it’s possible to think that you’re smarter that something which doesn’t exist. Do you think you’re smarter than Allah or Zeus?

      Please explain why you think quoting Bible verses at non-believers is somehow convincing?

      Please explain what you mean by random chance?

      Please explain why it’s ok to blasheme other gods but not the myths you believe in.

      Please explain why you thought you had to mention you’re not an intellect?

      • Custador

        Personally I’d have smacked Terry with the ban-stick by now. I don’t object to people rehashing old arguments repeatedly, but I do object to the same person doing it every few days for weeks on end.

        • Jabster

          I find him somewhat amusing … who can resist the combination of smugness and stupidity?

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    sorry to hear you suffer from chronic depression. Regardless as to what is causing it, you should seek professional help.

    one thing to ponder, atheists and homosexuals suffer the greatest percentile in the area of depression. It is very sad, and so easy to be remedied.

    I will be in thought for you…does that sound comforting?

    • Roger

      one thing to ponder, atheists and homosexuals suffer the greatest percentile in the area of depression. It is very sad, and so easy to be remedied.

      You mean that I should become a brain-dead zombie zealot sycophant such as yourself? No thanks.

    • beyonddeities

      Because the majority of the population shares your worldview and acts upon what your ideology dictates. Duh. People don’t just get depressed randomly; environment is a HUGE factor.

  • Terry

    Rog,
    when Jesus returns, He won’t need CNN to be seen…

    • Roger

      Well, I guess you told me! I mean, you’re using the threat of Jesus’ allegedly imminent return–because, you know, his return (will we call the sequel The Wrath of Christ? Jesus Strikes Back?) has been imminent for two freakin’ thousand years now. Oh, and no other religion has ever “predicted” an apocalyptic moment in which they who follow the religion are vindicated and those who don’t follow it are “punished.” After all, his return was so imminent, that Paul told the church at Corinth that they should probably remain single, but if they couldn’t control themselves, it was better to marry than to burn (in lust).

      Ter, your lunacy is *this* close to requiring a tinfoil hat.

    • yahweh

      See, jesus cares for the people who cannot afford cable.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    this may be the explaination of your misunderstanding of scripture:

    James 1:5-8-If anyone of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

    But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

    For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

    he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

    • Relles Natas

      Ah yes, James. “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24

      And this fits perfectly with Paul so well: “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God– not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8&9)

      And again: “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.” (Romans 3:28)

      James– justified by works, not by faith alone.
      Paul– justified by faith apart from works of law.

      I report, you decide.

      Seems pretty hard not to “doubt” when one apostel of Christ is saying one thing, and another apostle of Christ is saying the opposite. So interpret, interpret, interpret for me now, Terry. What do those verses really mean, in the light of your twisted, blind, doctrinaire fanaticism?

      Night night for now though. I have to violate the pseudo-Sabbath and work by the sweat of my brow all day long tomorrow for the sins of Adam and Eve.

    • Roger

      Terry is calling someone “unstable”? Isn’t that the textbook example of the pot calling the kettle black?

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    I finally admit that you are what you say.

    2 Peter 2:20-22: For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, THE LATTER END IS WORSE FOR THEM THAN THE BEGINNING.

    For it would have been better for them NOT to havw known the way of righteousness than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

    • Elemenope

      Oh, he found a Bible passage. Therefore, it is allowed to exist. He wasn’t sure before, because if the Bible doesn’t say it’s possible, it couldn’t be!

      I wonder if he applies the same standard to automobiles and copy machines.

      • trj

        Terry will go far in order to judge Relles. It seems to be his thing. Now that he has found a Bible verse that can be twisted to condemn Christian apostates he can set aside that nagging feeling of insecurity he felt upon seeing someone choose to leave Christianity. Not that Relles was ever a True Christian, anyway, of course.

    • Relles Natas

      Terry has merely discovered the law-worship of James and Peter– but has not yet refuted Paul. Interestingly enough, it was I who first mentioned Peter and James in my commet above at April 17, 2010 at 2:35 am. Terry appears to have only now discovered them (and I can almost certainly assure you by now our Terry has sought out the counsel of his elders, and is getting help with his homework, and what we are seeing here is a cadre of armchair theologians at work, or if only one, he is doing more Bible study– with the cut and paste efficiency of Google– than he has ever done before) and he is recapitulating in his babblings here nothing less than the historical slide of his “holy catholic church” into the chaos, pestilence, and collapse of the Dark Ages. It happened once before for a reason. It will happen again. Christianity had already fallen into a pit of no return by Nicea in the 4th century. The Protestant reformers would pull it part way out in the 16-17th centuries. But Paul was never reconciled with Peter and James while they lived. Paul CAN NEVER be reconciled with Peter and James, anymore than you can weld a piece of cloth to metal. I really do have to get to work, so I’ll go into this problem more this evening.

      But soon, poor Terry will find himself needing to call a council of his catholic church to try to bring all the contradictions once again under control. With their relentless calls for the breakdown of separation between church and state the fundamentalists, each seizing hold of mutually self-contradictory “fundamentals” are spawning the growth of competing political churches. These churches will need a strong emperor before all is said and done to bring together that which cannot be brought together. But fearing the autocratic power of the anti-Christ, they will rush into his arms, in the name of Christ.

      In Christianity you have three parts– the gospels, the letters of Paul, and the letters of Peter and James. You cannot get Paul’s teachings from the gospels– but you can get Protestantism and Calvinism from Paul. You cannot get salvation by grace through faith alone from Peter and James– but you can get the Roman Catholic Church with its sacraments, purgatory, need for mediators between man and god other than Christ Jesus to god like Mary and the Saints, and salvation by faith AND works.

      Terry is mortally wounded, he’s just too dumb to realize it. He has not responded and will not respond to a single of the death blows I have already delivered. He has not even read them. He begins quoting Peter and James after I do. He will go on with his beliefs, never opening his mind, never investigating a thing, because he is a coward and would rather believe a lie that guarantees heaven than investigate a truth that promises nothing. He admitted as much above. In the end, he is like the poor, little orphaned monkey in the infamous experiment clinging to the artificial mother wrapped in soft fabric while reaching over to the cold, cruel mother constructed of chicken wire but holding a bottle full of milk. He must seek comfort where there is no food, and food where there is no comfort.

      • VidLord

        “In the end, he is like the poor, little orphaned monkey in the infamous experiment clinging to the artificial mother wrapped in soft fabric while reaching over to the cold, cruel mother constructed of chicken wire but holding a bottle full of milk. He must seek comfort where there is no food, and food where there is no comfort.”

        Well said. Religion is the great security blanket. How do you offer hope, comfort or solace to someone just diagnosed with a particularly painful form of terminal cancer? In many ways I think my own intellect is a curse -like trying to sleep on a cold slab of concrete compared to the warm bed of ‘Jesus loves you’.

        To think is to usurp a divine prerogative. We are ignorant, fleshy creatures without sufficient sanctity to contemplate the sandal thongs of the Lord. We are duty bound to spend days and nights hymning our creator with the proper “Glorias.” The truly religious, programmed since birth, have gone from the simple state of not knowing to the actual inability to know.

      • John C

        ‘In Christianity you have three parts– the gospels, the letters of Paul, and the letters of Peter and James’.

        This is a common misunderstanding derived from an academic approach to Christianity (which Christianity is not) devoid of Spirit’s invaluable aid (since Spirit penned it Himself). There is only one Author in all of Holy Writ, not three as diverse as the text may ‘appear’ (judge not by appearances) at times, it can only be stitched together progressively by the aid of the spirit, ie the grace that (the spirit of Christ) in Paul alludes to is complemented, matured to the next degree in light by (the spirit of Christ) in James as he depicts the synergy of matured faith naturally manifesting (physically/outwardly) in righteous, God-initiated deeds.

        There is no (spiritual) insight in unbelief, one can deduce nothing of lasting substance, no true (eternal) meaning as Father will not empower the prideful and so further their own deformity from their original essence in Him, would be terribly injurious.

        Speaking of Peter, we read in his first letter that ‘the spirit of Christ’ was in the Prophets of old. And Paul declared that ‘Christ in you is the mystery of the ages’. So, its not Paul and and James and Peter, etc but rather the spirit of Christ manifesting/speaking through each and all, ie Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc. This is not only true for scripture, but every one who is truly InChristed, who has died to himself, whom Christ lives through. (Gal 2:20).

        All the best.

        • VidLord

          “Christ manifesting/speaking through each”

          Funny, a friend of mine was just telling me this is how satan controlled the serpent in order to tempt Eve. Satan was manifesting/speaking through the serpent.

        • Relles Natas

          John C,

          Thank you. And all the best to you as well.

          I do not dispute the fact that Paul, James, and Peter all three claim to be speaking in the name of Jesus Christ. What I dispute is whether, given the scriptural evidence, this can be true if Christ is One.

          And I must point out that when I first began to notice the very clear differences of tone and teachings between the gospels, the writings of Paul, and the writings of James and Peter, I had certainly never even heard of anything called an “academic approach” to Christianity. I was a young, growing Christian, finding myself being frequently rocked by my jarring discoveries again and again– through my fervent, whole-hearted, fully-believing study of the Bible– that divergent opinions existed among the apostles about whether the Christian believer was saved AND justified through faith (followed by works as “fruit”– Paul’s view) or saved by faith and justified by works as it would seem James and Peter have it. Thus, the whole idea of “losing one’s salvation” if you don’t put out the right mixture or quality of works is brought into the mix– as evinced by the horribly scary verses Terry is only now discovering for the first time in James, Peter, and Mark. I was already quite familiar with every verse he has quoted so far thirty years ago, though he springs them upon me now as though they are traps and he believes he is the first mortal to have ever read them in the history of the world. I do believe, however, that that great scholar of the Bible has learned more in the few days of arguing with me than in his entire Christian career up to this point. He should thank me. Yet still he has not thrown out my favorite– Hebrews 10: 26-29– “For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?”

          But it does not require an “academic approach” to the scriptures to see that in Acts 15, according to Luke, a dispute broke out at Antioch between Paul and some Jewish believers who came from Judea preaching that Gentile Christians had to be circumcised according to the law of Moses. This resulted in Paul and Barnabas going to Jerusalem and– still according to Luke– the issue being resolved by agreement on the part of James, Peter, and others there that Jewish followers of Christ would indeed continue to follow the law, but they “should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the pollutions of idols and from unchastity and from what is strangled and from blood.” (Acts 15:19-20) According to Luke, this would appear to have been the end of it– that Jewish Christians would henceforth be bound by and justified by the law, whereas gentile Christians would not. This in itself should be a troubling thing to any Christian who believes in one holy, catholic church and one gospel of Christ– to find a two-tier approach to salvation/justification sanctioned by the Bible itself. And what would happen to a Christian saved by grace through faith who nevertheless ate an animal which had been strangled, or consumed blood– as one might do today in enjoying a medium-rare rib-eye steak? The fires of hell await those who do not discern correctly, it would appear. So cook that sucker till it’s well-done, brothers and sisters, if you don’t want to end up well-done yourself.

          But it gets worse. In Galatians 2 we hear Paul’s side of the story– and he disagrees even with Luke’s attempt to gloss over the entire issue in having portrayed the conflict as a one-and-done episode which was permanently resolved by Paul’s and Barnabas’s trip to Jerusalem in Acts 15. To the contrary, in Galatians 2:1-10 Paul describes this first meeting when he and Barnabas went to Jerusalem and such a compromise was supposedly reached. However, beginning at verse 11 we see that according to Paul a second episode occurred– “But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, ‘If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?’ We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.” (Galatians 2:11-16)

          Yet we still read in the book of James– which is in the Bible, and which is considered scripture by Christians, co-equal to the gospels, to Acts, and to the letters of Paul– “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)

          So you can interpret this irreconcilable controversy as much as you need to. Anyone with an open mind will see the terrible truth. As I wrote above, when I first began to read these kinds of things, I did not doubt the Bible itself– I doubted the Christians who had shared the gospel with me and the church itself for apparently believing in the error that a man could be entirely justified by faith alone. And I doubted my own salvation, because I was not following the law. I meditated on the very verses Terry believes I am seeing for the first time now nearly constantly back then, and was greatly troubled. Who was I to believe? Paul? James? Peter? How was this to be resolved? Finally, after a great deal of heart-breaking struggle and soul-searching, I was forced to begin to admit to myself that the various problems could not be reconciled– that the New Testament as a whole, taken together in its current form– the gospels, Acts, writings of Paul, and writings of James/Peter– cannot be reconciled. If it cannot be reconciled, it cannot be the word of god. If it is not the word of god, then what is it? Do I begin throwing out this verse and that book to get reconciliation? Why would god allow two gospels? Why would god leave us such a mess? And gradually it dawned on me– a god which could not produce a coherent word which could not be reconciled, who would allow two gospels to be preached by HIS APOSTLES when he had promised that he was THE way, THE truth, and THE life– not TWO ways, TWO truths, and TWO lifes– well, a god like that is no god at all, or if he is a god, he is not worthy of my concern.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    you are the one Jesus speaks of in Mark 4 when he talks about the farmer who had seed sown on rocky places, You heard the word and at once received it with joy. But since you had no root, you lasted only a short time. When trouble or persecution came because of the word, you quickly fell away.

    That is exactly your situation, and exactly yyour testimony.

    Next came James 1:5-8, then 2 Peter 2:20-22. Everything you do and say brings you squarely into these verses.

    Your salvation was brief, at best. You then threw it away when people harrassed you on the street corners while you pretended to be Warnke, Jr. then you got gang-banged. Worse, much worse is you gave up your collection of Penthouse and Playboy.

    I know of no other that suffered for the faith as much as you. The Apostle Paul was fortunate to only having to endure his beatings and beheading.

    • Relles Natas

      Has anybody else ever seen the movie ‘Ruthless People’ with Danny DeVito, Bette Midler, and Judge Reinhold?

      I love the scene towards the end where DeVito’s character has dropped off Midler’s ransom money to Reinhold wearing the clown disguise. The cops are all around on the roof tops with sniper rifles and megaphones. Then the mistress’s stupid boyfriend shows up with a gun and tries to steal the ransom.

      Reinhold tells him they’re surrounded by cops, but the guy doesn’t believe him and takes the money anyway. So the cops shoot one of his tires out. He turns around and yells at Reinhold something like “Hey! How’d you do that? You don’t have a gun!” And Reinhold says something like, “Well, you’ve got me! Maybe it was the cops?”

      What the cops say next is classic:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW_jvLbAqMg&feature=related

  • Terry

    Jabster.
    rqndom chance is you crossing the road without being run over

    • yahweh

      Actually, I would call that looking both ways before crossing.

  • claidheamh mor

    Good on you, Roger.

    We have a Ter-ible troll spouting nonsense and dodging reason, to accomplish, um, what? Um, nothing.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    you and your athiest buddies are like wind-up monkeys. Every time you are held accountable for your words and actions, you start clanging your cymbals as fast and as loud as you can,

    If you could get the monkey to yell stupid while clanging the cymbals, 99% of your responses would be solved.

    • LRA

      Cuz, yeah, your sanctimonious bullcrap is *really* winning people over. Is there any bit of wisdom you can quote *besides* the Bible (which stole most of its ideas from other people, ie the Logos theory was stolen from the Greeks who predate the Gospel of John by 600-700 years)? We yell stupid for a reason. Most religious people are close minded to other great human works. Read the Upanishads sometime. It may astound you that the people of India have a much more sophisticated and well-thought out system of ethics and metaphysics than found in the Bible. In fact, the Greeks are currently considered the first great thinkers in Western history, and any philosophy class on Western thought is likely to go straight from the Greeks to the Enlightenment. Why? Because all that silly babble in the middle ages amounts to nothing because people didn’t have freedom to say what they *really* thought (and could be tortured and killed for it by *the church*!) In other words, while the Bible (a wholly and demonstrably *human* and NOT divine work) has some intellectually rich ideas, other works are much much better.

    • Relles Natas

      Once again, Terry, it’s spelled atheist, not athiest.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    if you think I need council from a team of elders to rebut your incoherent ramblings, you obviously forgot to take your meds.

    your wekend pass is over..time to go back to the padded cell

  • Terry

    LRA,
    what bananna truck did you fall off of? Do any of you athiests use any type of truth for your insane ramblings?

    • Elemenope

      Yeah, the kind of truth moored by facts. A kind you are unfamiliar with, and so it is not at all surprising you wouldn’t recognize it.

    • LRA

      Terry- I proudly fell off of the Columbia University banana truck.

      • LRA

        ps I never said I was an atheist.

  • Terry

    LRA, are you Rellas’ wife.?….the enlightnment?…don’t you mean total darkness?

    While Rellas lays in bed at night, trying to focus his thoughts into my brain, he must have accidentally focused his thoughts into yours…bummer

    • LRA

      You are absurd and have no intellectual merit. Actually address some points I’ve made or kindly STFU.

      • claidheamh mor

        Give up on that – it’s shown itself to be just a troll that needs feeding.

        • LRA

          Yeah- ’bout to.

  • Terry

    you did not have too. Columbia..wow…that has to be at least ten times a greater institution of higher learning than say, any other undergraduate school.

    • LRA

      I’m actually not an atheist. And yes, Columbia is an IV League school on par with Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Penn, and the other IVs.

      • LRA

        LOL! My bio background makes me prone to think in medical terms. IV should be *Ivy*

        • LRA

          Oh- and I did my Master’s there. I completed my thesis with Eric Kandel, who won the Nobel Prize in 2000.

  • Terry

    Elementary Dope,
    what have you added to this blog other than the monkey clanging his cymbals?

    • LRA

      Don’t diss NOPE. I guarantee he is one thousand times smarter than you.

    • Paul

      I think you should try saying his name, as he writes it, out loud. Maybe then you’ll figure out what it stands for, instead of making a blatant assumption that does nothing but fabricate fodder to unjustifiably attack with. Name calling is unarguably childish, and I would go as far as to even suggest the mark defeat. It’s a shame you can’t recognize this.

      • yahweh

        Note that since Terry has gotten absolutely nowhere with his so-called arguments, he has resorted to name-calling and short sarcastic responses.

  • Terry

    Your ramblings about secular,re-written history that intentionally denies religious facts does not merit a response. Ivy League..humm…I remember a few years back when those schools were actually looked upon as offering cirriculum that was at a higher standard than most colleges..guess the computer age closed that gap

    • LRA

      Religious facts??? Do you even know what a fact is?

      Ummmmmm, lemme guess. You do not.

      http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/facts/

    • claidheamh mor

      @ terry: Your ramblings about secular,re-written history that intentionally denies religious facts does not merit a response.

      Yet, ad nauseum, he responds!

  • Terry

    I had many friends at MIT and Harvard when I was at Berklee College of Music in Boston. Now those guys were smart.

    • LRA

      Hmm. Wow. Berklee College. I have… never heard of it. Well, you try getting into Columbia. We’ll talk then.

  • Terry

    I was also playing music with the greatest jazz muscians in the world at Berklee. Their musical genius did not give them entitlement to rise above God’s standards. Johnny Carson’s son was in the Tuesday Night Dues Band with the rest of us. Unfortunately he died in a car wreck while under the influence of drugs. I saw a lot of people there wasting their talent and lives on drugs.

    • LRA

      God’s standards? You mean human standards. The Bible was written by people… a demonstrable fact. It’s great that you are a talented musician: however you are a crappy philosopher.

    • Paul

      First of all, Berkeley, which i doubt you went to since you keep misspelling its name. Second of all, what does your attending any university have to do with anything? Many people, both intelligent and ignorant, attend universities, and many more don’t.

      • Paul

        Sorry, I assumed the the east and west coast used the same spellings.

  • Terry

    you probably havent, it is only one of the top jazz schools in the world

  • Terry

    Understand. Any philosophy based on the Bible would be crap to you. That’s OK, you are in the majority in this micro universe/blog site. Unfortunately Jesus does not change His beliefs according to a majority. I’m taillights ….bye

    • LRA

      “Unfortunately Jesus does not change His beliefs according to a majority”

      Really? Do you have any way to demonstrate or verify this statement. It’s is about as epistemologically sound as stating that Krisha does not change His beliefs according to a majority. Really! Such poor, poor critical thinking skills here.

  • Terry

    Paul
    you are the moron of the day..Berklee College of Music in Boston was named after Lee Burke, hence Berklee..good one

    • LRA

      Actually, that would be Lawrence Berk.

  • Terry

    Unfortunately the Nobel Prize has been watered down to the cocsistency of a loose bowel movement.

    medical huh. last time I checked, the average person lives to be between 76-80. The average medical professional lives on average of around 56..National Health care should raise our average life expectancy, since none of us will be able to get treatments.

    • LRA

      You’re talking out your a$$, you know.

  • Terry

    He was known as Lee to his friends,

    • LRA

      Yes, but you still got the last name *wrong*.

  • Terry

    that’s true, Burke is the spelling of a great trumpet player I knew well..Burk is correct.

    also, I apologize for being flippant…Columbia is a great school, and anyone who graduates from there is obviously gifted, as my friends at MIT and Harvard.

    Just a poor attempt at Ivy League envy humor…

    I do hope you did not run around with those Radcliffe girls though. Rumor has it that around 80% of them had clymidia (probably spelled wrong) at one time…

  • Terry

    Roger thinks you and I are ignorant because we went to college. I hope he doesn’t apply to BERKELEY College of Music….lol

    • Roger

      It is a non sequitur spoken by an idiot, signifying nothing.

  • beyonddeities

    Terry, stop. For the children.

  • Question-I-thority

    …one thing to ponder, atheists and homosexuals suffer the greatest percentile in the area of depression.

    Terry, would you please provide evidence for this claim?

    Further, Relles Natas has provided a detailed explanation for the reasons he began to reject the authority of Scripture. He, like so many others, are not likely to be persuaded by further quoting of Scripture. Keeping in mind that it does not do so for us, why does the Bible compel belief for you?

  • Terry

    The Bible is the one thing in this life that provides proper answers to those who are willing to accept and obey God’s will in our lives. When we trust and obey God’s word, we find out that He is for our best inteests, not a sky-daddy who enjoys perpetually grounding people who do not obey Him.

    Atheists detest God or anyone telling them what to do, even if it is for their own good. They prefer anarchy to a society that protects the innocent with laws. Following God means you csn’t just do anything you want without dealing with consequences.

    There are different levels of atheism just as there are different levels of theism:

    1. Atheists who do not believe because of lack of information necessary to make a decision for, or against Christianity. Thses types generally become strong believers when they accept Jesus. The Apostle Paul, Richard Wurmbrand, and C.S.Lewis are three former atheists who became great Christians when proper information was given to them.

    2. Atheists who choose to deny God because of moral convictions instead of intellectual convictions. People who live immoral lifestyles prefer atheism because it allows them to do as they please without accountability or responsibility. Most atheists fit in this catagory.

    3. Atheists who just hate God, particularly Jesus Christ. These people do everything they can to discredit, profane, or blaspheme the Bible, Jesus Christ, and Jehovah. They intentionally twist scripture and slander and libel anyone or anything associated with Christianity. This type of atheist’s goal (besides blaspheming God) is to recruit people and to cast doubt for the cause of Satan, their true god. Lies and deciet confirm their hatred towards God, except they are socialpathic in the sense they believe their lies as truth.

    Rellas is a prime example of this lowest form of atheism. His followers such as Roger, Sunny Day, Question-I-thority, Jabster use Rella’s ramblings and blasphemes as their anti-christ affirmations.
    2.

    • Garrett

      As has been pointed out many, many times to Christians, the Bible is full of contradictions. That sure makes it hard to make a sound argument that the Bible more than any other book “provides proper answers.”

      The atheists, agnostics and deists that I know are much better people (a subjective statement, I realize) than pretty much every Christian that I know or have ever known. To some, though, bigotry isn’t immoral but having sex prior to marriage is. So, I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder.

      • claidheamh mor

        “The bible provides proper answers”?

        I especially love all its answers about microbiology by the designer of microbiology: germ theory, the biology of bacteria, viruses, how disease works and the curative medical processes; astronomy and the heliocentric system; geology; chemistry; metallurgy; atomic and molecular structure; how to prevent diseases.

        /sarcasm

    • Nzo

      Atheists who do not believe because of lack of information necessary to make a decision for, or against Christianity.

      Unless you’re talking about the 3rd world country types, there’s plenty of information available.

      Atheists who choose to deny God because of moral convictions instead of intellectual convictions. People who live immoral lifestyles prefer atheism because it allows them to do as they please without accountability or responsibility. Most atheists fit in this catagory.

      Your ignorance is showing. Most atheists refuse your dogma on intellectual grounds. The moral grounds are hardly some bastion of christianity. If the bible is true, your god is a genocidal, slave-making, rape-approving, child-killing abortionist. As are those who adhere strictly to (bits and pieces) of the book.

      They intentionally twist scripture and slander and libel anyone or anything associated with Christianity.

      If you knew what you were talking about, you’d know that the only ones to twist scripture are the apologists who take HUGE leaps from logical reasoning to explain away all the inconsistencies and embarrassing passages in the bible.

      This type of atheist’s goal (besides blaspheming God) is to recruit people and to cast doubt for the cause of Satan, their true god. Lies and deciet confirm their hatred towards God, except they are socialpathic in the sense they believe their lies as truth.

      This isn’t some made-up hollywood movie. This is real life. There are no demons, or ghosts, or boogeymen, or genocidal perverts in the sky, or santa clauses.

      There’s not a single person here that needs an “antichrist” affirmation. Your book is a myth. Your god is a myth. That is a fact.

      What is also a fact, is that you sound like the type that would kill a man if you believed your god told you to do so. Am I right terry?

    • Relles Natas

      There are two kinds of people in the world:

      1. Those who think there are two kinds of people in the world.

      2. Those who don’t.

      Seriously, Terry, you’re starting to sound a lot like Mike Warnke here. I have never received a single paycheck from Satan.

      And no one here is a “follower” of mine. I don’t know any of them, and they don’t know me. As far as I can tell the people you have slandered thusly appear to me to be quite able to think for themselves, and don’t need a “leader” to do it for them. To them, I apologize for this insult.

      My experiences, like my posts, are my own, and I and I alone am responsible for them.

      Besides, who is really serving Satan here? Isn’t Jazz DEVIL MUSIC?

  • Terry

    we must add Garrett to #3 on the atheist list I just showed.

    #3′s also show hatred and are very argumentative

    • Nzo

      Yes, of course, Garrett’s post smacked of hatred…

      Wait… no, it didn’t. He stated facts and when veering from them even volunteered the “heads up” on the subjective information.

  • Terry

    Add claidheamh mor to group #3.

  • Terry

    Nzo just qualified for group #3

  • Nzo

    Unless you can offer some kind of response to us, you’ve completely lost. No one really cares what group you want to qualify them for.

    Honestly, with what you’ve written already, your opinions wouldn’t be held in high regard. You’re just like the crazy guys on the sidewalk preaching from the top of their milk crates.

    Offer some kind of rational argument, or the default judgment will be you as the loser.

  • Terry

    Nzo
    the last crazy guy I know on the street corner would be your hero Rellas.

    Claiming intellect as a decision to be an atheist is not another catagory of atheism.
    It falls in between #2 and #3, depending on the hatred in the atheist.

    Read the posts I have made on this micro universe/blog site if you want my responses to your questions. They go back to at least the first of March. No need to repeat these responses

  • Nzo

    Ezekiel 23:19-20

    Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.

    Morals

    1 Samuel 18:25-27

    Then Saul said, “Thus shall you say to David, ‘The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king’s enemies.’” Now Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king’s son-in-law. Before the time had expired, David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife.

    Morals

    Deuteronomy 21:18-21

    “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

    Twisted, for satan’s service… obviously (yes, that’s sarcasm, you pompous prick)

    2 Kings 18:27

    “But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? Hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?”

    Stupid atheists couldn’t possibly know what’s in the bible. I know because my preacher tells me what’s in the bible.

    Psalm 137:9

    “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.”

    Obviously twisted for my own evil purposes, so break out your stupid mythbook and look it up yourself.

    There’s no need to look up and read this impossibly long thread. You obviously just don’t know when you’re beaten. Either way, here is but a small taste of your book’s morality. I suggest you try to defend it while you still have some ounce of credibility to those that haven’t already seen you get shredded with logic.

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    actually that would be rock-and-roll. jazz does not use lyrics to promote Satan. We just enjoy playing notes in rhythm, not a satanic rite as of yet.

    Most of the atheists here may not be certified sign-up, pay a monthly fee follower of yours. They ususlly refer to your ramblings after one of your posts. Usually because they cannot think for themselves.

  • Nzo

    Claiming intellect as a decision to be an atheist is not another catagory of atheism.
    It falls in between #2 and #3, depending on the hatred in the atheist.

    You’re not exactly some intellectual authority here. It’s not your choice to make up “categories” to place us in. However, for now, I’ll be willing to allow that, if you allow ME to make up a category for christians.

    1) Idiots who believe a bronze-age book of fairy tales written in 3 different languages, on three different continents, by 40 different authors, over 1600 years. Nothing but intellectual terrorists too scared of dying to embrace reality.

    • Nzo

      Oh, no! Terry is in danger of becoming a #1~!!!

  • Terry

    nzo,
    are you Rellas wife? same m.o. many words, little substance. You should write a book

    • Nzo

      Little substance? Do you have any idea what that word means? I just quoted your book, word for word, and pointed out that your morals are pretty f*cked if you get them from that book.

      You, on the other hand, only seem to be able to avoid the issues while pretending you’re somehow winning arguments.

      You can’t win on an intellectual playing field, so you resort to childish tactics. That’s really cute, but it doesn’t exactly work here.

  • Terry

    nzo,
    sorry..you have to be an atheist to qualify. At least Rellas admits I am a true believer…you are being argumentative…#3

  • Terry

    nite, nite
    think I’ll listen to some Stan Kenton and Buddy Rich for a while

    • beyonddeities

      You clearly have either very limited experience in debating or seem completely ignorant of the rules. Most are common-sense. If you provide a substantial argument that anyone, not just crazy hobos, can follow with at least minimal ease and you provide coherent conclusions, most would not resort to not taking you seriously and ridiculing you. This is kid-stuff: you don’t throw a verbal tantrum when a person refutes your point or lack of.

      • Elemenope

        I’m still laughing from the time Terry claimed that Paul (of biblical fame) was a former Atheist.

        Terry’s problem isn’t a failure to obey rules of debate. This is what I believe the kiddies call an EPIC FAIL. Total, complete, self-parodying fail.

        • yahweh

          FAIL squared

  • Terry

    NZO,
    what does that stand for? Hopefully not National Socialism. Anyway, you are falling into the same trap as Rellas. An atheist quoting scripture is an oxymoron. The real Christian is instructed and guided by the Holy Spirit, not by non-believers, especially atheists.

    A good analogy of this would be like a person who only listens to music tries to tell an experienced musician how to read and perform music.

    Christianity is not a debate. It is a way of life, a relationship with Jesus Christ. A non-believer might apprehend this concept, but only a real Christian can EXPERIENCE it.

    In C.S.Lewis’ book, “Mere Christianity” , Lewis states, Every time you make a choice you are turning the central part of you, the part of you that chooses, into something a little different from what it was before. And taking your life as a whole, with all your innumerable choices, all your life long you are slowly turning this central thing either into a heavenly creature or inton a hellish creature: either into a creature that is in harmony with God, and with other creatures, and with itself, or else into one that is in a state of war and hatred with God, and with its fellow-creatures, and with itself. To be one kind of creature is heaven: that is, it is joy and peace and knowledge and power. To be the other means madness, horror, idiocy, rage, impotence, and eternal loneliness. Each of us at each moment is progressing to the one state or the other.” “Good people know about both good and evil: bad people knoe about either.”
    That is why a non-believer trying to interpret scripture is an oxymoron.

    • Relles Natas

      “madness, horror, idiocy, rage, impotence, and eternal loneliness”

      That pretty much sums up every one of Terry’s posts here.

    • Siberia

      C. S. Lewis? The dude makes a few of the weakest arguments for Christianity (his flavor of it, anyway) ever. Quite literally “because the magic book says so, it must be true.”

    • yahweh

      “That is why a non-believer trying to interpret scripture is an oxymoron.”

      @Terry – if scripture was truly given by and inspired by god, there should be no need to have to interpret any part of it. It should be as crystal clear. Yet it is not. It requires interpretation and to some believers (yourself included), the guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand it.

  • Terry

    NZO, by the way, I did read your nonsense. There is no context in your incoherent jibberish.

    • Nzo

      In that case, why don’t you provide context for those quotes?

      At what point is anything I’ve said incoherent to anyone with a decent education? Do you require a monosyllabic vocabulary in what you read to be able to understand?

  • Terry

    Rellas,
    you say Satan has never given you a paycheck. If he did, I think you would have accepted it. You may not be on his payroll, but you are on his administrative council. Why would that offend you? You either love God and hate Satan, or hate God and love Satan. There are no in-betweens.

    • Elemenope

      Or think they are both characters in an ancient mythology. Really hard to love or hate that which is fictional.

  • Terry

    Nzo,
    my MO here is to try to show the need of accountibility and responsibility to those whose main problem in life is to ignore these things. You cannot blaspheme God and His Word and accept accountibility and responsibility.

    • Elemenope

      You have failed to show

      1. Anyone here is not a responsible or morally accountable person
      2. Anyone here ignores moral duties
      3. There is a God
      4. That if there is a God, that he happens to be the God you believe in
      5. That #1 and #2 have anything whatsoever to do with #3 and #4
      6. That you have anything worthwhile or even minimally persuasive to say about anything having to do with the above

      If this is your attempt at delivering the good news, stick to jazz.

      • Siberia

        Why, exactly, are we feeding the troll?

        • Elemenope

          He looked hungry. I’m not about to deny a starving being nourishment, that would just be cruel. Must be those God-given morals we keep hearing so much about.

          • Siberia

            I suppose… but he also needs to be housebroken; look at the mess!

        • Garrett

          1) Entertainment. 2) Venting. Totally irrational people are entertaining. Daniel’s site produces a lot of humor at the expense of those folks. Also, if you’re like me, you’re venting. Because, sadly, kooky religious people are all around us…and in our own families. As someone who lives in the US, I find it distressing that such a high percentage of the US population (relative to many other nations) denies evolution, believes in supernatural beings, etc. So, when we encounter a kooky religious person or Tea Klan member at Unreasonable Faith, we let him or her know how absurd and damaging we think their belief system is.

          But we all know, I think, that we aren’t going to change Terry or John C. Because….”Myers’ Axiom: You can’t use reason to talk someone out of a position they didn’t use reason to arrive at.”

          Now, Terry and John C and others might claim that it’s just a difference of opinion. However, we’re not debating opinions so much as poking fun at beliefs that have zero basis in reality.

          • Siberia

            Yes indeed. Living in Brazil, it’s pretty damn hard to escape religion in all its colorful forms. Yay for 3rd world nuttery.

            I suppose I just don’t think he’s all that entertaining anymore. It was fun when the testimony battle was running and the types of atheists surely made me lol, but now it kind of fell into malaise…

            Ah well, I’ll keep watching :p

    • CoffeeJedi

      My only question for you Terry has nothing to with religion.
      *ahem*

      How did you get to be so stupid that you cant figure out how to work the “reply” button on a basic blog comment section?

  • BillZBub

    I’ve been getting all the posts to this thread delivered to my mailbox even before Terry showed up, and it’s been generally very entertaining, but I’m all out of popcorn now. Can we wrap this up? Terry, your posts have become dull, repetitive, mean-spirited, illogical, and silly. You lost. Game over. Try again another time, another thread.

  • Terry

    BillZBub,
    how can I loose? I have eternal life with Jesus. What do you have? If you don’t have Jesus, you’ve been out of popcorn for a long time.

    Cool name, Beelzebub….Lord of the flies…you got that going for you! How can a Christian compete with that?

    • Elemenope

      How can you loose?

      That’s a question for the ages.

      • Relles Natas

        Who let him loose?

        • Elemenope

          Foot.

    • Nzo

      Isn’t the idea of being with a guy for eternity a little homosexual?

  • Terry

    Elementary Dope,
    I find it distressing that you say Satan is a fictional character. After everything he’s done for you? Don’t you respect anyone?

    • Elemenope

      I find it distressing that you believe in a character from a fantasy book. We are all distressed about something, I guess.

    • Elemenope

      Also, seriously, learn to use the reply button. It would be at least courteous, minimally decent, and ethical to do so.

    • John C

      Terry friend, calling someone you are sharing your faith with a ‘dope’ is a bit counter productive, don’t ya think? Do they need Terry, or Christ in Terry? Offer Him, not you.

      • beyonddeities

        I love you John. Can we be friends? I realise that we’ll only agree on religion if magic mushrooms were involved, but you’re a nice troll :3

      • Terry

        JohnC,
        I looked back on this blog to see how much time you have spent in here. Since March 27, you have 6 entries. Out of those 6, you actually quoted scripture one time.

        Since Feb. 23, I have posted 90 entries. Most of these entries are backed by quoted scripture.

        Since you are an authority on witnessing to atheists, I’ll hand this over to you. Check out the 4/19 entry about types of atheists, and the 4/21 entry where I quoted C.S.Lewis. You may not know this, but Lewis is recognized as possibly the greatest Christian author in the 20th century.

        Then, if you care to take the time, go back to my first entry on 2/23 and read from there to here. What you will find is the more I quoted scripture and tried to hold these people to accoutability and responsibility, the more of them jumped on me for doing so.

        Read Elemopes retorts, and Rellas’ and Nzo’s intentional twisting of scripture.
        You will find atheists blaspheming God, His Word, His Son, and every Christian. If you do not hold them accountable, they will ridiicule you to scorn.

        I challenge you to show me one instance where I offered myself instead of Christ. Calling a person the thing they are acting like is tough love. If you pat them on the back and encourage them to continue blaspheming God, you will find it has no meaning to them.
        People here that truly hate everything about Christ can only accept Him if you use scripture, and by holding them accountable for what they say. If they intentionally say stupid things, or blaspheme, you call them what they are. They are very tough, and in many ways hardened.
        One final thing: You must consider Jesus’ comments to the Scribes and Pharisee’s hypocrites and blind guides. Kind of counterproductive, don’t you think? What about C.S.Lewis’ remarks that I quoted ?
        I’ve spent well over 100 hours in here, trying to reason, witness, and even trying to shock people back to their senses.
        I’ll check back in a couple of months to see how you are doing. Try to throw in a little scripture to back up your reasoning.
        At first you will be their hero for me leaving, but get ready….I’ll be surprised if you spend 10 minutes on this ..see you in a couple of months.

        • trj

          Terry, there’s a very simple thing which you seem unable to understand.

          ATHEISTS DON’T HATE GOD. For the simple reason that we don’t believe he exists. For the same reason, it’s absurd to claim that we follow Satan.

          What we DO have a problem with are the people who insist on telling us what to think and do and who constantly pass judgement in the name of the god they believe in. That’s you, Terry.

          Most of us are willing to consider arguments for the existence of God and the veracity of scripture. But this requires that you actually present a coherent argument. The only things you have provided are infantile name-callings, absurd strawmen about how evil we atheists are, easily dismissible clichés we’ve heard a hundred times before, non-sequiturs and arguments from authority, and incoherent rambling in general. All of it sprinkled with Bible quotes, as if this somehow makes the crap more compelling.

          Of course, when we point out that you haven’t made an argument at all, or in the rare case where you’ve tried to make an argument which we then contradict, you get insulted, and instead of actually defending your claims you call us hateful blasphemers and ignore every counter-argument made.

          Allow me to show some tough love back at ya’: Terry, you’re an idiot. What’s more, a self-righteous idiot. I don’t know if it’s your faith that has made you into the idiot you are, or if it just comes naturally to you, but either way, all you’ve been doing here since your first post is to antagonize people towards Christianity. You think you’re winning souls for your god, but the obvious stupidity of your posts only convinces people to stay the hell away from Christianity. Who in their right mind would risk embracing Christianity if it means they could become like you? You’re an effective deterrent and an embarrasment to other people of your faith.

          • beyonddeities

            Well, techincally speaking there’s many different kinds of atheists, and I would say a portion would hate the concept/idea of the Christian God… but IA with everything else!

          • Buzz Payne

            trj that was an excellent response to Terry. I’ve chosen to be a Christian for almost 40 years. At times I wonder about it all too. I have read most of the responses, on this particular post, and have laughed at some and winced at others. I choose to believe in the invisible God and it’s not always easy, but I’m not going to condemn someone who chooses not to believe. I will probably catch more flak from Christians, for saying this, than I will from atheists. Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that I thought your response was solid, intelligent, logical and reasonable.

        • yahweh

          Is it possible that we overfed a troll?

          • Nzo

            Probably, but most of us wound up getting fed in the process

    • Siberia

      Well, he doesn’t return our calls, not even shows up for tea. We’re starting to think he doesn’t exist, what with his utter lack of presence in our lives…

      • yahweh

        Haven’t you learned anything Terry has taught us yet? Satan wants us to think he doesn’t exist. This way he can really control our lives. ;-)

        • Siberia

          Mission accomplished, then ;)
          Wonder why Gawd doesn’t keep Lucy in check.

      • trj

        No no no, like Terry says: “You either love God and hate Satan, or hate God and love Satan. There are no in-betweens.”

        So obviously you must believe in Satan as well as God. It is simply impossible that you would not believe in either of them.

  • yahweh

    Terry, even John C is calling you out for the kook that you are. You came in here attempting to witness to us evil atheists and you failed miserably. Which should not be surprising since we have all heard everything you have presented hundreds, if not thousands of times before. You have failed to even attempt to answer specific questions presented to you that were based on the nonsense found in you own holy book. You have now resorted to name-calling and mean-spirited attacks on anyone who has completely shot down every “argument” you have presented. Not very xtian like. It is time for you to pack up your buybull and find another atheist site to fail at.

  • klidov

    Terry-Please review:
    Comment Policy: No evangelizing. No name calling. Keep your comments on-topic. Do not put links to your own site outside the url field. Failure to follow the comment policy will result in a ban.

    Having said that, I have no problem with the fact that the Admins & Site Owner(s) have not banned you. I will say that I do cringe whenever I see your latest drek because I get embarrassed for you. I really do.

    The art of intelligent discussion/debate obviously has escaped you, or perhaps you never learned them to begin with, as I see no example of those skills in your ramblings.

    You make declarative statements with no foundation, or facts to support your “facts”. You assume to know the people here, how we think, how we feel…and what we know. (Again, with little or no information with which to make your statements.)

    You have attempted to both objectify and discredit those that reply here, yet there is a difference between “attacking a subject”, and personal attacks. And, FYI, when a person resorts to personal attacks, instead of relying on the strength of their argument(s), they have lost both credibility, and the discussion at hand.

    • klidov

      I still do not understand exactly what you think you have accomplished with your diarrhea of the mouth. No one here is accountable to you, you do not represent in any way the God you claim to worship (just in case he might be real, paraphrasing your own words), and all you have succeeded in doing is further alienating the very people you claim to want to “reach”.

      You have made a mockery of yourself, and your god. (And if I were a Christian, I would cringe at how your presume to speak for us/them.)

      Really, go now.

      And before you start with the whole “atheist”-rant, yet again, I will repeat, I am not an atheist.

      My final rebuke, your book teaches that no man knows the heart of (a) Man (or Woman) but God himself. You have put yourself on God’s level. And frankly, with your behavior, you have served the Satan you believe in. After all, he is the “accuser”-A role that you have taken on here.

  • Francesc

    “Since Feb. 23, I have posted 90 entries…”
    That’s called spamming and usually people is not proud of it.

    “… Most of these entries are backed by quoted scripture”
    You may want to look for more solid backup

    “You may not know this, but Lewis is recognized as possibly the greatest Christian author in the 20th century.”
    And that doesn’t say too much about other Christian authors.

    “What you will find is the more I quoted scripture and tried to hold these people to accoutability and responsibility, the more of them jumped on me for doing so”
    Maybe quoting scripture is not a way to reason. Only suggesting.

    “intentional twisting of scripture”
    ¿? I thought that was what christians do

    “You will find atheists blaspheming God, His Word, His Son, and every Christian”
    Blasphemy is a crime without victims. I didn’t know you can blaspheme Christian, is he also a god?

    “Calling a person the thing they are acting like is tough love”
    Moron. With love.

    “People here that truly hate everything about Christ can only accept Him if you use scripture”
    Has it ever worked??

    “I’ve spent well over 100 hours in here, trying to reason, witness, and even trying to shock people back to their senses”
    What a waste of time! Not everybody can reason, so don’t let the failure discourage you. Next time maybe you can reason a little.

    By the way, John C has been here for a lot more time than 100 hours.

  • lonewolf

    Most of you are idiots. Actually I really want to say Jesus loves you but everyone else thinks you’re a bunch of assholes

  • lonewolf

    those of you who hate God and Christ will simply burn in Hell. you already live in Hell as deep down in your pathetic little minds, you simply long to be loved. Your insecurity, ignorance and shallowness shows as you wear it on your sleeves for all to see as nothing but empty words and noise. You reject the only true and real meaning of life and an eternal future of love with our creator for what? This life and this world? It pales in comparison to what God reallyt has in store for His followers. For those of you who don’t seek Gods’ true Agape love, you are simply evil sons and daughters of satan. You will get what you deserve. An eternity with satan in torment, damnation and separation from God. It’s a shame really as God loves All of His creation and does not wish to lose any of it……….. you can argue all that you want about religion, the bible, Jesus, real or not but deep down you know the truth. As the saying goes, for some, The Truth hurts. The bible says even the demons know God and His word and tremble in fear at His presence. You fools I pity you. I would rather live believing that God exists than to live a life of despair and having nothing to look forward to but an eternity of nothingness, non-existance and blackness.

    • LRA

      One finger pointing at me leaves three fingers pointing back at you, bub. Insecurity, ignorance, and shallowness are the hallmarks of extreme religious people. I don’t think you know the first f*cking thing about agape, you hater.

      Also, do you have ANY definitive proof for the existence of hell? Yeah, I didn’t think so.

      Finally, you don’t get to tell me about my life. You don’t know the first thing about it.

      • lonewolf

        my my we have anger issues don’t we? let me guess, not only a God hater but a man hater? bye bye idiot. you cannot argue with ignorance, especially yours. you will reap the whirlwind of Gods judgement. I Do hate evil and if you reject God you represent evil. Thank God for back space as I no longer have to read the drivel here. as you probably love to have the last word, I leave you robbed of that pleasure as I will never visit this site again. A total waste of time.

        • Custador

          Do they have padded bridges for clinically insane trolls to live under?

        • John C

          Come back when you can love, have been conformed to the image of Christ, are a true disciple of His. He said ‘love your enemies’ and ‘judge not lest you be judged’. He said ‘why do you call me Lord but don’t do what I say’?

          Until that day (when you can love like Christ, who loves through you) you are merely part of the problem, have nothing of value to offer anyone.

          Love’s reach is unlimited, but hate and judgment is self-defeating, has the opposite effect. Learn this lesson now and it will drastically change your life for the better.

          You came back to read this, yes you did.

          • Custador

            John C versus random angry fundie troll?

            *grabs popcorn*

        • LRA

          LOL! I…… have anger issues? Me? After that rant, that’s looking pretty ridiculous. And where did you get “man-hater” from? Is there anything in my post that differentiated men from women? No? Oh, yeah. That’s right. You just ASSumed. Because you are an ass. (and probably a misogynist as well.)

          Sad.

          • Jabster

            @LRA

            You’re only saying that because he’s a bloke …

            • LRA

              I must be a man-hater after all! :P

            • DarkMatter

              I do not think that is LRA but a reply. There is nothing of a bloke in her reply, unless I miss it.

            • LRA

              DM- he’s joking with me.

            • DarkMatter

              Sorry.

            • LRA

              No worries!!! :)

            • John C

              What’s this? DM apologizing, displaying humility, contrition toward his fellow man, erh woman? Mark this day, this comment! It’s a miracle!

              Now, if we can just get him to show that same spirit towards those he doesn’t agree with…presto…sainthood! Just pickin’ on ya man, You dunn gooood! :)

            • DarkMatter

              Did I apologize to mine, my fellow humans? Some Lizzies might disagree with you. :)

            • LRA

              WIN!

            • John C

              No, I was referring to you apologizing to LRA, not Lizzy. Ugg, nevermind.

            • LRA

              JC- I think he was joking with you! :D

            • DarkMatter

              “What’s this?”
              yeah, ok, your “:)” :)

            • DarkMatter

              I love JohnC where he is here.

          • trj

            Obviously when a woman fails to like lonewolf she must be a man-hater. I’m guessing there are quite a lot of man-hating militant feminists in Lonewolf’s world.

            • Custador

              Want to bet he gets rejected a lot by the opposite sex?

        • Roger

          Aw, crazy troll will not troll anymore? Why? Why???

          • Custador

            Fun = spoiled :-(

            • LRA

              You could always beat up on the wicked witch of the west on my “well, well, well” post on the forum….

              (just kidding. well, kinda. ok- not really kidding.. LOL!)

            • Custador

              Elizabeth? No, I decided that she wasn’t worth talking to when she claimed that a clear and unambiguous comment she made meant something entirely different later on in the conversation when the former expressed opinion no longer suited her needs. She’s a total twat-bag and I’m not wasting my time getting angry at her tbh.

            • DarkMatter

              i just realise it. Me bad. (smile)

    • Jabster

      3/10 for trolling … must try harder.

      • Custador

        I’d swear at him but he just doesn’t seem worth the effort.

        • Jabster

          TBH he’s given it away a bit by only using lower case at the start of sentences where as the spelling is fine and there’s no randomised caps … I’m marking him down to 2/10 for such mistakes.

    • JohnMWhite

      “those of you who hate God and Christ will simply burn in Hell”

      And then god will wonder “why do these people hate me?”

      • Terry

        Why would God wonder why “these people hate me” when they are burning in Hell? Hell is the abode of those who reject Jesus, not the place where a snickering God glefully dumps his reprobates. They are there on their own volition..God wished they had chosen Him instead…(:^(…

  • Pingback: Pillars of Faith Series | Unreasonable Faith

  • Terry

    It sure has gotten quiet around here since I have been on vacation! Where is everyone??? In CHURCH?? Rellas?? Roger? Jabster?? LRA?? Has Satan performed the anti-rapture?? Humm…maybe National Health Care has taken it’s intended toll?? Or…maybe everyone re-joined ACORN?? One thing for sure…I’m back!!!!!!!

    • yahweh

      Oh joy. *yawns*

    • Relles Natas

      I swear I just read “…maybe National Health Care has taken it’s intended TROLL”. But here you are still. I for one have missed you, Terry.

      But you see your god hasn’t killed me off yet, in spite of your prayers. And, believe it or not, it’s not like everybody here at UF knows each other and works as a group. We’re just other places doing other things hoping you had decided to stay in your zombie lair.

      I for one have no real interest in this thread, or wasting my time on you, but I clicked the box to receive an email notification everytime someone posts something new on it, so here I am. I stumbled upon this thread myself by accident a year ago this coming Halloween. I think I told the story above. But this thread isn’t all there is here at UF, Terry.

      There is an entire blog and forums section on this site. You should definitely go up top and click on forum. at least. The good news is you’ll have a much larger audience. The bad news is there’s no evangelism allowed and you’ll attract the attention of some brutally efficient destroyers of hooey-purveyors like yourself who will have you turning in circles and quickly reduced to hurling threats to have hellfire rain down on our heads. Eiher that or we’ll all learn some new drink recipes, and then you’ll probably get banned for refusing to argue rationally and resorting to self-righteous preaching.

      But still, doesn’t that sound like a lot more fun?

      • Terry

        Rellas,
        glad to see you have the same ol’ spunk! It is odd that you think I would pray to God to take your life..?? Maybe that’s the difference in thought processes of a Christian and a what…nonbeliever/athiest/agnostic/cynic??? Anyway, I don’t pray for people to be harmed just because they believe or behave differently from me. That would put me on the same level as a dictator or an anarcist or a demi-god.
        Another thing, I think you put too much faith in your athiest friends intellect in your forum/micro-universe. Brutally efficient destroyers of hooey purveyors like me?…haha…If they are so cock-sure of their abilities, why do they put restrictions on rules of engagement? (No evangelising) I’ll tell you why! They (or yourself) cannot compete against the Word of God. It’s the same old story with you non-believers: you spew half-truths and your prejudices without accountibility. Then, when you are confronted with the pure truth of God’s Word, you retort by attacking our (all Christian) credibility and intellect. That tactic has never won a debate for anyone, yet that always seems to be the final retort before you guys claim victory.
        I’m not here to claim victory. The victory has already been won through the death and ressurection of Christ. This is not a contest. It is the battle of the ages-Good vs. Evil.
        Call it what you want. Call yourself what you want. It all comes down to this-Jesus Christ is Messiah, the absolute truth. There are those who accept and worship Him for what He is, and those who refuse to accept Him, despite all the undeniable evidence.
        One last thought: You can’t have the notion that something never existed unless there is first evidence that the something you say doesn’t exist does indeed exist? Maybe a self-proclaimed intellect in your forum can explain this. If any of them want to spar, you know where to find me.
        Glad you are doing well!

        • Relles Natas

          Oh yes, of course Terry. No religious groups would ever employ such methods as banning or excluding rule-breakers, or disturbers of the peace.

          Unless of course you count the Gestapo tactics at the Creation Museum in Kentucky where:

          “The security team uses hidden cameras, uniform and plain-clothed officers as well as trained dogs to look for explosives.”
          http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2008/March/Creation-Museum-Ups-Security-/

          Why? Are they afraid of the truth?

          So, in the face of a completely non-existent wave of bombing attacks against Christian installations across the US, it has become necessary for followers of the Good Shepherd to patrol their “truth” exhibits with German Shepherds, and to employ all the intimidating tools of a police surveillance state in order to keep weirdos in strange clothing and such from disturbing the serene beauty and peace of their all-conquering truth? Sounds like Satan to me.

          “… signs warning that guests could be asked to leave the premises at any time. The group’s reservation confirmation also noted that museum staff reserved the right to kick the group off the property if they were not honest about the “purpose of [the] visit.”

          Because of these messages, Barton said, the students felt they might accidentally reveal themselves as nonbelievers and be asked to leave. This pressure is a form of “compulsory Christianity” that is common in a region known for its fundamentalism, Barton said. People who don’t ascribe to fundamentalism often report the need to hide their thoughts for fear of being judged or snubbed.

          At one point, Barton reported in her paper, a guard with a dog circled a student pointedly twice without saying anything. When he left, a museum patron approached the student and said, “The reason he did that is because of the way you’re dressed. We know you’re not religious; you just don’t fit in.” (The student was wearing leggings and a long shirt, Barton writes.)”
          http://www.livescience.com/culture/creation-museum-fundamentalists-christians-discrimination-100818.html

          Just sayin’, Terry. Your brethren down Kentucky way seem a bit extreme in ways that probably transcend the comments policy here at UF. And I won’t even mention other tactics as book burning and such. I’ve never seen any dogs or any of that other stuff around here, bro.

          • Terry

            Rellas, that’s pretty weird stuff alright. Unfortunately there are some pretty strange things going on in the name of religion. My father used to say, “you can be so right, that you are wrong!”
            These people need to learn that Christianity is a belief, not a religion. They confuse santification with isolation. Kinda like the guy in Gainesville wanting to burn the Koran. What is he afraid of?? Jesus warned us of these “many false prophets”. That does not make it excuseable though…see, we do agree on certain things…
            <[(:^D}//…

            • Terry

              Are we ready to do a Cardinal game together yet???

            • Relles Natas

              I suppose we do indeed agree on certain things, Terry. Belief is a very complex thing, and very basic to the way the human brain works. I’m too tired to start tonight, but I’ll leave you with this:

              Once when I was a Christian, I was travelling down a street in the little mid-western college town where I lived at the time with several of my church brothers in the car with me. I don’t recall if I was driving, or someone else. These were good friends of mine. We fellowshipped together all the time, some might even have been my roommates, others were ones who if anyone ever needed help working on a car, or moving, or anything, they were always there to help. The only one in the car whom I recall specifically was Bob.

              The local Unitarian Universalist church was on that street, and as we passed it, Bob (his real name) said, “Man, I’d like to firebomb that place”.

              I was absolutely dumbstruck. In a way, I still am. He “believed” that because those people and that place were leading people to hell, that he could forget that his job was to love them as Christ had supposedly loved him, and instead of loving them, out of what he “believed” was love for the souls they were leading to hell, he said such a terrible thing. And I will never forget it.

              “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.” Steven Weinberg

            • Terry

              Rellas,
              that is an interesting story. Actually, I can see why people are fed up with religion when you hear guys wanting to bomb a church whose theology is different than their own. As I said earlier, wishing bad on other people only puts me at the same level as a Hitler, Hussein, or Judas.
              That is why it took me 28 years to become a believer, even though I was raised in church. What made me decide to begin a life in faith was I finally quit worrrying about what people were or were not doing that was different from my standards, and began a relationship with God.
              I realized that there was nothing I could do to earn God’s favor, except to admit that I was a failure according to God’s laws and standards. I asked Him to forgive me, even though I would probably keep screwing up to some degree for the rest of my life, and I accepted God’s gift of eternal life through Jesus’ death and resurrection as a gift of mercy, (a gift I didn’t deserve), and grace (because He loves us), and by faith (accepting his gift).
              The hardest thing for me to believe is that I am forgiven, because way down deep, I know I do not deserve anything God has freely offered me. Most days I struggle with the same problems that I had before I was saved, so what has changed? Grace. That’s the only difference. Before, I couldn’t accept God’s unmerited favor because of my sin. Now I accept it, even reluctantly, but I have to accept it as an act of faith. If I couldn’t do that, then I have put myself in the place of God.
              Since then, I have stopped doing things that are wrong-most of the time. When I regress, I dust myself off, remind Jesus that He accepted me as I am, and start another day. That way He can relate to me, and I can relate to Him. If I constantly did the things from the past, I could not have that relationship, because I would be focusing entirely on the thing that had my attention, instead of Him.
              Warnke has done a lot of things wrong, but one thing he said on one of his tapes is absolutely correct-”You can’t get cleaned up before youn take a bath.” That means most people think they have to straighten themselves up first, then God will accept them. But God accepts us first, then does the cleaning, not us.

            • Darwin

              So, this is what you’re basically saying:
              ‘I was a bad person, but then I accepted God and now he forgives me whenever I screwup. And Jesus accepted me as I am so I don’t really need to do anything since he’ll take me to Heaven, no matter what.’

    • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

      BFD.

      • Terry

        Looks like a newbie has plopped on the scene since my vacation. Hey Skippy! What do you have to say about the truth of the Incarnate Christ?

        • Sunny Day

          Obvious Troll is Obvious.

          • Terry

            Sunny Day!
            Glad you are back. I’ve missed your dark side! I’ve heard there is a new broom out that has an electric start, so you don’t have to pull that pesky rope…

        • Relles Natas

          Oh, and by the way Terry, I’ve misrepresented this site’s rules a bit, silly me. Actually, you can evangelize all you want over on the forums, but you have to do it on a special forum for evangelization. Look around and you’ll find it, somewhere down at the bottom. Some people engage in a bit of evangelism on the regular forums, and are generally allowed to do so as long as they behave intelligently and don’t say crazy things. If you want to say crazy things, and I think we both know you do Terry, then you have to do it on one of those special forums.

          Sorry, my bad. Are we clear now? You CAN evangelize here, but just in a special forum. And no German Shepherds, hidden cameras, plain-clothes guards, or any of that stuff they do down there in Kentucky.

          • Terry

            haha..I enjoy the fact that in a country where free speech is freely promoted, the athiest’s have to protect themselves from the truth’s resulting from free speech by decicing who, and on what basis free speech can be performed. I understand evangelism is a scary act when received by the non-believer. They must feel it is a type of excorism. So…boundaries in so-called high intelligent forum’s are created for the protection of their intelligence…or to protect the half-truths of their babblings. Ya’ll know where I am…Hey, didn’t you think my comment about Satan’s anti-rapture was quite funny??…<[:^D}//…

            • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com WMDKitty

              The only thing scary about evange-liars is the level of abject idiocy.

            • Terry

              Kitty, careful…you might P-Off the censor (I think the brave soul is Custador), then you’ll really be in trouble.See, you non-believers can call our beliefs idiotic, and we are quite fine with that. That is part of normal banter for some. It doesn’t bother me, because at least I respect you, Rellas, Yahweh, Jabster, and whoever else are brave enough to mentally share your beliefs. Wouldn’t you be offended if you weren’t allowed to share your opinions with me and the rest of the group? That is the M.O. of third world dictators, not the U.S. In all honesty, I am glad you took the time to throw in your 2 cents worth!.(:^D…

            • trj

              Sorry to burst your comfortable illusions, Terry, but the rules of no evangelizing are not there to protect us atheists from your brilliant arguments, but as a noise filtration system.

              You see, this is a debate site. Quoting Bible scripture and telling people they should believe in Jesus or burn in Hell is not debate. It’s just mindless repetition devoid of substance. People get tired of reading those kinds of posts as they bring absolutely nothing meaningful to a discussion, and they’ve heard it a thousand times before. That’s why evangelizing is not allowed – although in practice it’s tolerated to some degree.

            • Terry

              trj,
              come on now! Not everybody is that out of touch with reality that they actually believe that excuse. This is a debate blog? Really? And who decides the rules of engagement, the atheists? If you are going to have a real debate, then both sides have the right to quote information useful to back up their claims. Since the Bible is the absolute athority to the Christian, taking the source of our authority only shows your cowardice and inability to accept the truth-any truth. You are only interested in pretending your false reality is true, and you, like the Communists use the “ban the Bible” tactic to keep from being exposed. You can hide behind your false reasons as to why evangelism is prohibited, but only the atheists use this practice. Even Muslims and Hindu have debates with Christians and their Bible. As I told Kitty, at least I respect her, Rellas, jabster, yahweh, and the others who choose to debate me. You and this site are a bunch of cowards who are tired of being exposed as the frauds you really are. So you have a censor who “determines” by a mere value judgement who can, and who can’t be posted. Why don’t you all just move to a Communist country and see how great it is? You can’t do that though, they don’t let you live off the gov’t. You can’t feed off the hard working people over there, can you? Go ahead. Keep pouring water into a gasoline engine, and tell everyone that the car will run fine, while censoring the mechanics who keep trying to tell you that only gasoline will make the car run. Call his constant warnings as “repetitive”.

            • Darwin

              Why are you quoting the Bible at us? We’re atheists. We don’t accept the Bible as an authority on anything, except idiocy.
              You screaming at us about hell is also idiotic. It doesn’t prove anything. You threatening us with the wrath of Jesus is like me threatening you with the wrath of Zeus.

            • trj

              You know, Terry, most other Christians understand the value of actually arguing their point, rather than just repeating ad nauseam that they have the Truth which can’t be questioned and everybody who don’t agree with them is evil. Clearly, you have neither the desire, nor the ability for doing so.

              I think it’s pretty obvious to everyone else but you that you’re not engaging in any debate but simply standing in a corner shouting that you’re right and everybody else is wrong because you have the Truth. I also think that nobody is impressed by this in the least.

              I should probably thank you for your contribution to the atheist cause. Someone considering adopting Christianity who happens to stumble across your posts will invariably say to themselves: Is this what Christianity has to offer? Is this really the best case that can be built for it?

            • Olaf

              “I understand evangelism is a scary act when received by the non-believer. They must feel it is a type of excorism.”

              Not scary, only the most irritating thing you can find.
              Senseless quotes that have no meaning whatsoever. Just like you take random words and try to create a sentence out of it.

            • Terry

              oaf,
              random words from myself makes more sense than life emerging from random chance!

            • Olaf

              Insane people also use random words which makes sense to them.

        • Custador

          Obvious Troll needs to stop evangelising.

          • Terry

            Custy,
            now, what kind of example are you presenting to your enlightened ones calling me names, when name calling is forbidden in here, and you are the censor!

            • Custador

              Calling you what you are is not the same thing as calling somebody a chil-abducting paedophile. I’m sorry that you’re too intellectually deficient to see that. The only other thing I’ve censured you for is evangelism – and I wouldn’t have done that if you hadn’t been extremely offensive in the process.

            • Terry

              offensive to who? and you are the idiot who makes that determination???

            • Sunny Day

              Hahaha.

              Yes you nimwit He’s one of the people selected by the blog owner to make that determination. Your willful stupidity is just startling sometimes.

            • Sunny Day

              “I’m done with you sociopathic fruitcakes.”

              Another lie from Terry.

        • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

          Looks like a newbie has plopped on the scene since my vacation. Hey Skippy! What do you have to say about the truth of the Incarnate Christ?

          First, I’m not a “newbie.” I used to post under the name “Roger.”
          Second, I want no part of your “Christ.” Your deity likely does not exist, and if your “Christ” did exist, it is far more likely that he was, as was many of his day and age, a “new age” rabble rouser who made a lot of promises, but kept none of them. Your “truth” is built on a foundation of willful delusion.

          • Terry

            Skippy, so…Roger has become Skippy…hope that did not require a sex change..

  • yahweh

    “you’ll attract the attention of some brutally efficient destroyers of hooey-purveyors like yourself who will have you turning in circles and quickly reduced to hurling threats”

    RN – it’s already happened. Below are parts of a response I made to Terry 5 months ago. Trolls never learn.

    “….You came in here attempting to witness to us evil atheists and you failed miserably. Which should not be surprising since we have all heard everything you have presented hundreds, if not thousands of times before……You have now resorted to name-calling and mean-spirited attacks on anyone who has completely shot down every “argument” you have presented…….”

    • yahweh

      Sorry, this was supposed to be a reply to Relles Natas’ entry above

      • Relles Natas

        Yep, that’s why Terry ryhmes with scary.

        • Terry

          Do I scare you?? <{(:^D}//…

    • Terry

      Yahweh,
      What you perceive as name calling and mean spirited attacks is not what I do. If someone says or does something I know is stupid, I tell them it is stupid. If you want to turn that into a half-truth, and then use that to attack me, then OK. Saying someone is stupid does not mean I hate them. I may dislike what you stand for, but I do not dislike you as a person. Maybe I should have clarified that earlier-although I tend to believe that kind of statement woud be twisted out of context also.
      As responsible adults, we are expected to be accountible for our words and deeds. That, I believe is the weakness of most non-believers. They take a “lie”, stack a bunch of half-truths on it, and call it “reality”. Then, when they are called into question, they are the ones who use verbage to attack in an effort to avoid exposure.
      If a person can’t take criticism, he can never know the truth. Use that as a platform when we have dialogue, and you may find we have spirited discussions, but the actual goal is to discover the “real truth”, which I believe is in the person of Jesus Christ, not to win a self-perceived debate.

      • yahweh

        Terry, You said “What you perceive as name calling and mean spirited attacks is not what I do”. But that is exactly what you did when you were last here in mid-April. When you realized your arguments where not winning anyone over, you resorted to name calling. Below are just a couple of statements you led off your posts with (I am just copying and pasting. You can go back to some of your entries from April 15-19 to confirm this):

        Elemenope,
        What is that name short for, Elementary Dope?

        Rellas,
        you and your athiest buddies are like wind-up monkeys

        Paul
        you are the moron of the day

        LRA,
        what bananna truck did you fall off of?

        Now, I am sure none of these have offended anyone in anyway. They are only words and we can tend to engage in that type of behavior in the age of internet anonymity. However, don’t say that you don’t call people names and attack them when in fact you did.

        • Terry

          Yahweh,
          Name calling is something someone does to another person that is not true. For example, if I said you were an intellect, that would be name calling.

          The examples you show have nothing to do with name calling, I am merely telling someone who they are based on their perceptions, or false opinions. I have no problem if someone calls me stupid, and can back it up with substantial proof. But if I call a spade a spade, and the shoe fits, they should have no problem wearing it.

          the problem with a lot of people who live a lie today are offended when they are exposed. I try to be accountible for what I say and do in life. If someone tells me I am stupid, and can show me where I am wrong not based only on their phoney opinion, then I will change. A person can never know the truth if they can never take a little criticism…try that as a standard for your life, and I guarantee you a better life..(:^D}..

          • trj

            > “If someone tells me I am stupid, and can show me where I am wrong not based only on their phoney opinion, then I will change.”

            Sure you will, Terry. It has been pointed out to you repeatedly that no atheist believes in or worships Satan, yet you keep repeating this falsehood.

        • DarkMatter

          Terry lies about what name calling is and he thinks he can change people using his lies as truth. But Terry is what he is, a liar telling lies as truth, by the way, I am not name calling anyone.

          • Terry

            Dark Matter???
            are you sure that shouldn’t be “grey matter”?

            • Olaf

              Terry, you sound like either young or very uneducated.

            • Olaf

              I also think that your are still a virgin, because you can’t get a date.

            • DarkMatter

              He can’t get a date because he accidentally castrated himself during self circumcision. He thought he has to remove the whole penile skin.

    • Terry

      What you perceive as a miserably failed witness by yours truly is in fact not a failure at all. Failure to do something is failure. Taking action to witness to others is not failure. It is an obedience to God’s will. Whether my witness is perceived by others as ineffective also does not make the witness a failure. That is only an opinion towards the action of my witnessing. [Extremely offensive evangelism removed] – Custador.

      • yahweh

        Terry, You said “Failure to do something is failure.”. No, that is not doing something. Failure occurs when you actually attempt something with an outcome in mind (e.g. you winning us to christ) and not acheiving your goal.
        So, you have not failed at attempting to win us to christ. Your failure is that you have not won us to christ.

        • Terry

          Yahweh,
          Nice try…Your opinion of my sucess as having an effective witness, and your interpretations of my reasoning is once again skewed by only opinion not based on fact.
          People who witness aren’t graded on it’s effectiveness based on short-term sucess, because we only plant the seeds. God does the harvesting. And most results are based on the hearer or reader of the witness to accept or deny the offer. In that sense, the only loser is the one who refuses the offer. Besides, who is to say that even 20 years from now ssomeone on this blog might remember something that I said, and then decide to change their life for the better?

          Your opinion hasn’t yet been elevated to the point of being absolute truth, so I take it for what it is-just your opinion. You have to do better than that. Calling yourself Yahweh is one thing. Being Yahweh is another…lol..

          • Olaf

            I think far more people would have become either Athists or Islamic that your Christ in 20 years time when you look at the statistics.

            I think that in 20 years time your messages will be shown in classrooms to show how silly those Christians were back then.

            • Terry

              Oaf,
              I think you and “Grey Matter” have brains that have been infected by spyrochetes of the Syphilis variety…

      • Terry

        custador,
        good to see you are doing your job as censor! Can you believe that an extremely offensive evangelistic message almost slipped by your ever watchful eyes? Wow, if that would have happened, your blanket would have been taken out of your dungeon, and your captors would have served your evening gruel without warming it up!!!!

        • Paul

          Evangelizing, especially offensive evangelizing, doesn’t contribute to intellectual debate (I hope you do understand at least why the offensive part doesn’t help anything within discussions). It is perfectly possible to argue for your christian standpoint without needing to evangelize, staying out of the realm of logical fallacies, or blatant harassment. This is why such speech is curtailed, which isn’t really in violation of free speech as, as most people here would agree, makes sense, not to mention the fact this is a private (not public) forum.

          Also, I simply love your use of “once again skewed by only opinion and not fact.” Especially when it’s simple use of diction that is being called into question… but this is merely an opinion, which, of course, is skewed and not fact…

          • Jabster

            @Paul

            He’s not evangelising … he’s just doing a traditional bit of trolling. I think the best thing to do is either ignore him of take the piss out off him.

            • Paul

              I saw the first of his renewed comments the other day before anyone had responded…. I was really hoping for the collective choice of ignoring, but since that’s not the case…

            • Jabster

              … arh, you’re going for taking the piss then!

  • aerie

    Oy! I can’t believe I just spent an 1hr1/2 reading this whole thread! 1hr1/2 I’ll never get back but the level of Terry’s ‘obtusity’ (is that a word?) was incredible. I woke the cat in my lap with my jaw-drops so many times, she finally got snarked at me and & dashed for her fav chair.

    Some awesome rebuttals by all of you. Really. *applause*

    I’ve reading about levels of defense mechanisms as they relate to personality disorders & it’s understood that “lower level defense mechanisms are considered primitive b/c they fundamentally rely on blatant misrepresentation or outright ignoring of reality in order to function. These mechanisms flourish in minds where emotion trumps reason & impulsivity rules the day. They are indicative of emotional retardation on some level. Adults who use these methods consistently demonstrate a failure to appropriately distinguish between representations of self & others and difficulty with what they perceive vs. reality.” The preceding paragraph describes ‘Terry’ perfectly. They are cluster B type personality disorders (Dramatic, Emotional, Erratic Behavior).

    • Jabster

      I enjoy reading some of the old threads and have always found it strange just how few of the comments I can remember making even when I read them. I’m relative sure that if my name was removed I wouldn’t be able to spot even half the comments I’ve made. It’s also nice to remember some of the olds faces that used to post here such as teleprompter, Aor and phankygee.

      • Terry

        Hey Jabster,
        It’s good to see that you are still around. I kinda miss the old days when we sparred about stuff that was mostly (in my case at least) Jabster type of humor..ie-you still haven’t given your explanation of what moral relativity is..haha

    • Terry

      Actually, you misdiagnosed me. If you are a phycologist, then that explains alot, since most pets can get that degree. If you are a psychiatrist, then you must chage a very low fee.
      I am extremely type A personality, whether you want to believe that, or even if it offends you, that is who I truly am. My career in sales as an account manager, district and regional manager, a solist in music and a life-long athlete proves that, at least to the hundreds of people who know me.

      I guess the rub is what our personal values are based on. Apparently, those whose foundation is built on truth will perceive reality totally different than those whose foundation is built on lies or half-truths. Example? Reading your opinion brought me to the conclusion that you were talking about the non-believers, not me. I try to back up every statement of importance with truth. Most retorts slammed at my beliefs as a Christian are almost 100% personal opinions or superstitions. When non-believers quote a portion of scripture, then pervert it’s historic and proven meaning to try to prove their lies and half-truths carries very little weight, meaning and clout to those who know better. Nice try…(:^(…

      • aerie

        I wasn’t diagnosing you, Terry. Your analysis of what I wrote was way off, anyway.
        I think that complex personality disorders and defense mecanisms are too complicated for you to grasp. But, thanks for playing.

        • Terry

          aerie,
          big words, fancy prose, little context…

        • Jabster

          “I think that complex personality disorders and defense mecanisms are too complicated for you to grasp.”

          I would probably add that a crayon is also too complicated for Terry to grasp …

  • Terry

    Darwin,
    haha…I love it when people like you read something that is plain and simple, then pervert what was said in an attempt to discredit the person or their statement. But that is what Satan and his followers do. The live a life of lies and half-truths, so anything that is true has to be perverted to prevent their phoney lives from being revealed. That’s why Jesus said, “Know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” The great thing about living a life centered around truth: it is a very calm and relaxing existence. Try it, you will be amazed when you find that you aren’t angry all the time.

    • yahweh

      “But that is what Satan and his followers do.”
      Terry, anyone who follows satan is delusional. Satan, like any god, does not exist.

      • Terry

        yahweh, how can you say that Satan and God do not exist. The proof that they do exist is the fact that you cannot have a notion that something does not exist unless first there is a
        notion that they first must have existed. If they never existed, no one could have ever come up with the notion on their own volition they they do indeed exist.

        • trj

          Yes, it is quite impossible for someone to think up something that doesn’t exist beforehand. You’ve hereby proved the existense of Zeus, Odin, and every other deity in history.

          • Terry

            trj,
            nice try. No one (at least sane people) have ever claimed that Greek Mythological entities were ever real…gotta do better than that!

            • trj

              Ha ha, no of course not, silly me. The ancient Greeks never believed in their own pantheon, the Nordic peoples never believed in Valhalla or Odin, and no present-day Hindus, Shintoists, or Sikhs believe in their own gods.

        • Olaf

          Zorks do also exists. But people always laugh when I tell them that the Zorks are coming back.

          • Terry

            Olaf, I believe you when you say you believe the Zorks are coming back…I’m not laughing…:)

    • Darwin

      I’ll explain this to you slowly. Atheists do not worship satan or any other supernatural entity. Get this through your head and than we’ll talk.

      • Terry

        Darwin,
        you are correct. Atheists worship themselves. Say, you’re not that guy who came up with that lame-brained theory that man came from ape, and species evolve into other species over a period of time are you?

        • aerie

          Actually Terry, I read recently that some of our closest descendents may the wonderfull bonobo monkeys. They are loving & affectionate w/in their matriarchal group and care for their young well into adulthood. They enjoy leisurely sex w/ each other & can recognize themselves in a mirror! You should read up on them sometime. Very interesting reading.

          • Terry

            aerie,
            I think we’ve met..is your last name Ola? Prob not…guess we haven’t met. As with Olaf, it is possible that some of you were grunted out of Cheeta. I think you would make a great bonobo monkey! why don’t you and Olaf get together and see if you can concieve one of those sexy rascals…..<[(:^D…

            • Terry

              eerie,
              I do think it would be a great idea for the matriarch doing all the work, and us guys eating pizza, watching ESPN all day long while the broads eek out the living. Now why did you and Olaf reverse roles after you became the first humans conceived from Cheeta and King Kong? You guys really messed up a good deal for us guys…

            • MissDid

              Whoa whoa whoa! Set’le Pet’le! That was not necessary. Remember who you are, bro.

        • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

          You say that “atheists worship themselves.” Prove this assertion, Terry.

          • Terry

            Skippy,
            look at you…that’s proof enough for me..yes or no on the sex change???

        • Olaf

          Terry, have you ever read the evolution theory?
          I doubt that you even understand the first page.

          • Terry

            Olaf,
            are you Viking? Don’t tell me, you can believe that Cheeta had sex with King Kong, and 9 months later grunted out Olaf? Yet you can’t grasp that God created the rest of us in his image??

    • Terry

      Darwin,
      besides, like it or not, or even if you aren’t aware of it…you are a follower of Satan if you do not follow Jesus. We have only two main choices in life, and that’s a fact, not a evangelistic message!!

      • aerie

        The part you don’t get is, that we *reject* your idea of “two choices”. Whether *you* like or or not. And it’s apparent you don’t. Again, not our problem. Satan is meaningless. Evangelism is meaningless. It holds no value and evokes no fear in us.

        YOU are the one “not liking” it but that is not our problem. And let me add that YOU, Terry are the “supreme perverter of words”. You are really gifted.

        • Terry

          aerie,
          did you used to be enelope? Rogerette has become Skippy…if so, that’s eerie, aerie..

        • Terry

          aerie,
          one of the problems with atheism is that when things are going well, you don’t have anyone to thank! If that’s not bad enough, just wait for the deathbed! Your bravery willl fall like a house of cards! Read up on the attitude changes that occur with atheists on their deathbed! Most of them leave planet earth screaming for forgiveness and crying in fear…but none of you brave souls talk about that, do you?

          • Paul

            That’s a bit fallacious. While it is possible for an atheist to make a deathbed conversion, and it does happen, the only times I hear about the plethora of occurrences is when it is being cited by religious leaders, which is not a very objective source. From what I have heard, from general discussion and not by any one trying to promote a particular world view, atheists do not have that death bed trend. I would also like to point out that it is possible for a theist to to have a deathbed deconversion.

            And why is having no god to thank a bad thing? If all is going well, and no god is responsible for this well being, why can’t we thank our own hard work as well as the hard work of everyone else involved? That, actually, would be more of something to be thankful of, as it wasn’t quite the physical concept of people that need to be thanked (although some degree of gratitude to them may be due, e.g. to farmers, teachers, cops, doctors, etc).

            • Sunny Day

              The world is too complicated for Terry to understand. Putting a magical critter on “top” makes it eaiser for him to set aside his fears and bewilderment of the world.

          • Mike

            No Terry – it’s the religious who leave the world screaming in fear. Have they done enough? (they know they haven’t). Are they going to fry for eternity under the gaze of their loving and merciful sky daddy? Of course. Whereas the atheist knows exactly what to expect – they just have to remember what it was like before they were born.

          • Custador

            Having witnessed several deaths, of atheists and of theists both: Bullshit. Absolute, unmitigated, complete and total bullshit. The whole “no atheists in a foxhole” lie is such an ugly construct – theists feeling smug about atheists in mortal peril. Very revealing about said theists if you ask me.

          • Yoav

            Terry, not that reason is going to work with you but you should look up Christopher Hitchens’ recent interview with Anderson Cooper on CNN. He explain how despicable is the hunt for deathbed conversions is much better then I could.

            • Terry

              Yo..
              CNN?? Well now, the Communist National Network of Ted (Billy Graham) Turner is not exactly producing programs that would be considered reliable, or relative to traditional values in truth, is it…

            • Yoav

              Who gives a sh*t about what you think of CNN, I’m not a fan myself but I was trying to point you to an interview where Hitchens talk about people looking for his deathbed conversion and what he think of them. Are you too scared to hear him, did your pastor told you he can destroy your precious delusions?

      • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

        Please provide proof of the existence of this “satan” of which you speak.

        • Terry

          Rogerette..uhh.Skippy…
          think of satan as if he were the one who performed your sex change…

          • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

            I’m sure that that kind of response is pleasing to your alleged savior. It’s highly hypocritical of you to come around a blog bleating about your religion when, apparently, you don’t have enough integrity to follow it.

            • Terry

              Integrity??
              come now Roger, don’t use my faith as reasoning for your complaints…that would be evangelising..and Custy will put you back in your cell!!

            • Terry

              Skippy,
              if you are serious about wanting to really know about Satan, and you are not mocking me-as it appears, I would suggest you find a nice church in your area, and begin a life of submitting to the Christian faith. Other than that, it doesn’t matter if you think ol’ Beelzebub is “Lord of the Flies” or not.
              I am not allowed to evangelize in this micro-universe/pig’s sty…

            • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

              No. If you’ve got proof of the existence of this satan of yours, then bring it.

          • MissDid

            TERRY! BE STILL!

            You should know better… I am literally appalled right now. I expect name-calling and explicit retorts from others, but you? Can’t you see they have you wrapped around their pinky? What the H are you doing? Leave it alone.

      • Olaf

        I do not follow Jesus, and I do not follow Satan.
        I follow the only true god.

        • Terry

          Oaf,
          and who would that be, Zork???

    • Olaf

      Satan? People still believe in Satan? Wierd!

      • Terry

        olaf,
        you don’t believe satan has you by the short hairs, but you believe that cheeta and king kong are your closest relatives, and Zues is the one true God…humm…wait…that is starting to make sense!!!

        • Olaf

          Who claims Zeus to be the one true god? That one is fictional.
          There is only one true god. The god so powerful he created the other gods created the multi-verse.

          He is the answer to life the universe and everything!

          • Terry

            Oaf,
            the multi-universe?…humm….do you travel in and out of these multi-universes through thought…or do you beam yourself up and around these whacky joints??

            • Olaf

              No, but that multiverse god that created your god gave us
              The answer to life, the universe and everything!

    • Terry

      darwin,
      earlier you posted a comment accusing me of “screaming about Hell is also idiotic”. I’d like to be the first to say I was not screaming. I was venting, in a nice quiet voice!

      • MissDid

        And you should stay that way!

        Nice and quiet…

  • trj

    Hm, so we’re ultra-liberal communist anarchists. You’re making as much sense as ever, Terry.

    Let me just fix your list:
    3) argumentative retorts
    3) infantile name-calling

    The problem with debating you, Terry, is that there’s nothing to debate. You offer no substance of any kind, no arguments beyond “I am right because the Bible says it”, plus you’re a self-absorbed idiot convinced of his own brilliance who can’t form a coherent argument – which can be occasionally entertaining but at this point is just tedious.

    It obviously annoys the hell out of you that we don’t give a crap about your evangelizing message, and so, unable to actually frame an argument, you resort to the only option left to someone of your intellectual stature: throwing tantrums and using childish invectives. Well, that and complaining how everybody is so eeeevil.

    You should run along now, little troll. Go somewhere else and do your witnessing. Because none of us here give a flying shit about your holy testimony or anything else you have to say.

    • Sunny Day

      Let me guess, it’s a coloring book?

      • Elemenope

        It’s a cookbook!!!

        • http://ironymous.wordpress.com/ nomad

          To serve man?

    • trj

      How many want to bet that Terry’s article won’t be including a link to this page, despite all of his talk about censorship?

    • Ty

      Wow, and he pulls the old, “It was all an experiment, and you guys were just my test subjects, so HAH!” routine?

      Wow.

      This is weapons grade clueless.

      • Custador

        I really, really , really don’t like moderating comments on Daniel’s blog, because Daniel is extremely tolerant of others and the giant cans of crazy that they sometimes choose to spray about the place and this is his blog, not mine – however Terry has gone far too far. I have therefore removed some of his comments.

        • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

          I have no problem with that. His form of “commenting” probably warrants more moderation than others. Of course, to Terry, this appears as “censorship.”

  • Yoav

    Oh, I’m gonna cry. Poor wittle Terry, did the mean atheists made fun of your buybull and didn’t automatically accepted it as the absolute source? Stop whining, the moderators on this site are extremely lenient and only block comments when it get really annoying (usually a moron copy/pasting half the buybull into a post and thinking he just made an actual argument). try posting facts on a creationist site and you’ll see what censorship really is.

    • Nox

      I’m not sure how even this idiot can get the idea that he’s being censored here. As far as I can tell, none of his hundred or so comments have been deleted. They just sit there as evidence that Terry is not the brightest (and circumstantial evidence that Terry and Mike Warnke are the same person). If you are still reading this Terry…

      Someone telling you that you are not saying anything is not the same as someone trying to stop you from saying something.

  • Siberia

    ROFL. You wouldn’t know sociopathic if it slapped you in the face (and promptly slit your throat, as aggressive sociopaths often do).

  • klidov aka cathy

    Terry/Troll=epic fail

    Wow.

  • MissDid

    As I have sat here reading all of these wonderful arguments, I find myself agreeing: they are WONDERFUL arguments.

    This is coming from a born-again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Yes, I know it is an atheist site. Please stop sighing with exasperation… I can hear you from here. I’m not about to pick a fight with anyone, especially with a lot as intellectually diverse as this. Well, some of you. I have to admit that I do not agree with some of the things posted, especially BY Christians… You can’t bully someone into believing, so stop trying! That goes for ANY subject. But for the most part, I laughed my butt off! I too was totally captivated by Mike Warnke, I still find myself repeating specific lines from his performances. But even if that’s all it was, a performance, he still changed thousands of peoples’ lives. Reminds me of a movie, which is VERY loosely based on the ministry of another evangelist-gone-wrong. Maybe you’ve heard of it: Leap of Faith. Stars Steve Martin, very funny, I love it. Just goes to show that faith is stronger than fiction.

    Now now, don’t start yelling at me. I told you I’m not trying to pick a fight. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Does it SPECIFICALLY apply to anything in particular? No. Anybody can have faith for anything. Although, I’m really lost on the thought of atheists having faith. I may be wrong here, but aren’t you guys not supposed to believe in ANYTHING? But faith is typically used in reference to some form of religion or another, so I can see why you might get abrasive just seeing it in front of you.

    I wasn’t going to post anything here. I didn’t come to the site for anything other than to read the article. But I found all the posts so fascinating, and I couldn’t help myself.

    To the atheists: you make a great case. There isn’t a lot of proof. Actual hold-in-your-hand, see-it-to-believe-it proof. There’s no remains to uncover, there’s no descendants, there’s no fossilized footprints or whatever else scientists can use to prove Jesus was actually here. And that’s the way you see it. Cool beans. Way to stand up for what you believe in… er, or don’t.

    To the Believers: I’m proud, and a bit shocked at your behavior. Yes, you need to fight for the cause, but seriously? You gotta know how to pick your battles. Jesus died for them as much as he died for you. Tell them the news, AND MOVE ON. Don’t sit there and argue. THAT’S WHAT SATAN DOES! He finds the chink in the armor and he hits it over and over again. If he knows your sensitive about being called a liar and a phony and a TrueChristian(TM), (whatever is up with that whole thing) then he’s gonna egg it on for as long as he can to keep you occupied. Because he’s going to make it personal. When there is warfare, it is ALWAYS personal. GET OVER IT. We are expecting this, remember? One step closer to his return…

    All in all, I really enjoyed visiting this site. And if there aren’t too many of you mad at me when you read this, I’d like to come back sometime. It’s been very…. enlightening.

    • LRA

      Actually we have regular and well-liked Christian posters here. The thing for me is this… you know that you don’t have evidence, you’ve admitted that, so how can you ask me to commit to your way of things when there are literally thousands of religious ways of viewing the world?

      I suppose your answer would be conviction by the Holy Spirit, but the thing is that I was a devoted Christian for over a decade, and deconverted as I learned more philosophy and science. I literally cried and prayed to “feel” the Spirit. I begged for God/Jesus to help me to have the best possible relationship with “him”/it… and…. nothing. Not a word. Not a clue. Not a hint. Not a single thing to demonstrate that the Christian God is the wonderful counselor… the prince of peace… almighty God. Nothing. Silence. Eventually I gave up.

      What kind of God denies his children? What kind of God gives silence for devoted prayer? What kind of God refuses to relieve suffering when asked in earnest (seek and ye shall find)???

      But it gets worse… I read the Bible in search of answers to the silence… and what I found horrified me. Take a tour of the Old Testament… with its raping and genocide and cutting of babies from womens’s wombs and silly commandments (not the 10, the 250+) and still try believing that “God” is love. No. No! NO! It’s impossible.

      So thank you for your comment, and I appreciate your tolerance, but I just can’t follow you where you are going.

      Thanks anyway. Sincerely.

      • MissDid

        I have many friends of different religious beliefs, and they have all asked me “why?” LRA, my answer to you is simple:

        It’s what I believe.

        But I promise I won’t preach at you if you respect my choice, just as I respect yours.

        And, I know how that felt, crying out to someone and not feeling like He hears you or even cares. I STILL feel like I mean absolutely nothing sometimes. But I can’t just turn my back on someone who has proven who He is to me. I have literally been right there, with my foot out the door… and then He stops me. It might not be understandable to you, especially since you’ve been there. But you made your choice. And I’ve made mine.

        And about the Old Testament…. yeeeeeeaaaaahh, I know! I have asked so many questions and talked to so many people… The truth is…. well, I don’t know exactly what to say. I’m not a theologian who has all the right words to say. All I know is how it was put into terms for me: God is a jealous God. Like a mother protecting her children, she’ll do anything… even kill. That’s what He did. He protected his children. You gotta remember the world was not SUPPOSED to be like that.

        I know you don’t believe in a deity, and so none of that makes any difference to you. But it made all the difference to me.

        • Ty

          “It’s what I believe.

          But I promise I won’t preach at you if you respect my choice, just as I respect yours.

          And, I know how that felt, crying out to someone and not feeling like He hears you or even cares. I STILL feel like I mean absolutely nothing sometimes. But I can’t just turn my back on someone who has proven who He is to me. I have literally been right there, with my foot out the door… and then He stops me. It might not be understandable to you, especially since you’ve been there. But you made your choice. And I’ve made mine.”

          You are allowed to believe anything you like. I respect each person’s right to make their own choices. I do not have to respect the choice itself.

          You freely admit this is a belief system for which you have no evidence other than your belief. You do realize that this is a tautology, right?

          • MissDid

            Ty you’re slightly twisting my words, but ok. I get your point.

            I said there is no scientific evidence substantial enough to prove the existence of Jesus Christ living here on earth. I did NOT say that there is no proof He exists. And I know you’re gonna ask me for proof, something I can show you. Well, I can’t think of anything I can link you to right now… All I know is from my own personal experience with miracles, there IS a real true LIVING God who watches over and takes care of me.

            Contradict me all you want, it’s not gonna but me. Like I said, I didn’t come here to start a fight, get into a heated debate, slander anyone, or try to convert anybody. I’m not a preacher. But whatever you say is not going to sway me from my beliefs. And I can tell from reading all the previous posts that it does no good to argue, because you won’t either.

            WHY oh WHY can’t we all just get along?! We’re all still human, right? Except for maybe this Zork guy…

            • vidlord

              God watches over and takes over you now. Wait awhile and you will come to doubt that

          • MissDid

            “You are allowed to believe anything you like. I respect each person’s right to make their own choices. I do not have to respect the choice itself.”

            By the way, I feel EXACTLY the same way about homosexuality. And I have plenty of friends who love and respect me because I don’t judge them. I simply do not agree with their lifestyle choice.

            • Ty

              Oh, so you’re a bigot too?

              Nice. It cuts down the signal to noise ratio when someone hands you an excuse to ignore everything else they say. Thanks for the time saver!

            • MissDid

              Whatever….

            • LRA

              Homosexuality is NOT a lifestyle choice. It is a biological difference on par with the difference between blue, green, and brown eyes. How do we know this? Guess what? There is scientific evidence… not only of what hormones affect biologically masculine and feminine phenotypes, but also how brain structures differ between gay, bisexual, and straight people.

              Gay people aren’t sinners. They aren’t abominations. They are biologically built the way they are. Period. End of story.

            • LRA

              Directly from the scientific literature (via the PubMed search engine):

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16143171

            • yahweh

              This didn’t last long. I saw under the Recent Posts section there were comments on this thread and I thought “Terry’s back”. I pickup where our new friend starts and all is nice and sweet and “we just have different beliefs but we respect each other”. OK. Kind of boring. Then the “lifestyle choice” comment. Yup. MissDid showing the true colors of a bigoted, I’m right and your wrong xtian.
              Lipstick on a pig is just a pig with lipstick.
              And Ty, I spit out my tea with your “Oh, so you’re a bigot too” comment.

            • LRA

              Here’s an even more recent review from 2008:

              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18157628

            • Sunny Day

              “Oh, so you’re a bigot too?”

              I don’t know about that. She could think that Homosexuality is “wrong” in the same way that she feels believing in God is “right”. Without evidence and based purely in an emotional response. I wait for the person to act on their prejudices before calling them a bigot.

            • Jabster

              “By the way, I feel EXACTLY the same way about homosexuality. And I have plenty of friends who love and respect me because I don’t judge them. I simply do not agree with their lifestyle choice.”

              Of course you do, of course you do … it always amazes me just how my Christians post here who have so many gay friends that respect them even though they find their “lifestlye style” sinful.

              Honestly, do one and feck off back to where you came …

            • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

              What is this “lifestyle” of which you speak?

            • Sunny Day

              She could be repressing and choosing Heterosexuality. It’s totally valid in that context.

              Ted Haggard anyone?

            • claidheamh mor

              @MissDid Whatever….

              That is a lame, grade-school (80′s cliché-sounding) way of non-supporting your particular chosen mythology, and your using it to justify being arrogant and covertly hostile toward specific groups of people. You serve as a good example of the answer to your question asking why can’t we all get along.

        • Paul

          “It’s what I believe.”

          Belief does not equate reality. I can believe all I want in phlogiston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston_theory) but that doesn’t mean phlogiston is accurate in anyway physical or otherwise. Lot’s of people have believed any number of things throughout history that have turned out wrong. Greek Pantheon? Norse Pantheon? Egyptian Pantheon? Japanese Pantheon? Lots of people accepted these as truth and believed them before your religion; not so much anymore though (Although I do not fully know how much weight the Japanese Pantheon still caries).

          Your lack of evidence only puts it on the same credibility level as what I listed, which is not an exhaustive list. You’re perfectly welcome to believe it if you want, but certainly do not confuse your belief with valid reason for anyone to accept it.

          “All I know is from my own personal experience with miracles…”

          Why is it that these “personal experiences with miracles” are never described any further? I love the I-have-some-proof-but-wont-show-you response.

          “Like I said, I didn’t come here to start a fight, get into a heated debate …”

          But you did open your views and opinion up for debate by posting here. That’s why there’s a “Reply” button. (PS that last sentence is meant to sound slightly jocular).

          @Yahweh

          I had the exact same feeling about Terry.

    • Sunny Day

      “Please stop sighing with exasperation… I can hear you from here. I’m not about to pick a fight with anyone, ”

      “Now now, don’t start yelling at me. I told you I’m not trying to pick a fight.”

      But you’ll try your best to bait us with comments like that.

  • Pastor Claude

    Well folks, I’ve read all the post and there’s a lot of valid questions and good points. Also, there’s a lot of philosophies, theories and speculations. They all have one thing in common. They’re all opinions and they are not facts, nothing more. Don’t take me wrong here!. Opinions are great, as long we can respect each other individuality.

    The bible is history book and there’s a lot of existing facts, and proven facts. For example; look at first & second Corinthians, the ruins of the old city of Corinth still exist and has been proven by carbon dating to be the old biblical city of Corinth. The same goes for extinct tribes, the Philistines, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Babylonians all mentioned in the Bible. All artifacts found was exactly where the bible mentioned where these tribes lived.

    But, even though the facts are there, doesn’t mean people will accept it. Jesus fulfilled all the prophecies of the Law concerning the Messiah, even did miracles and violated the laws of gravity and physics. Yet the Pharisees and Sadducee knew the possibility he was the messiah. However, they were threaten with the fact that if Jesus is the Messiah, the law would be fulfilled and they would be out of a job. Simply because by admitting that he is the messiah there would be no need for each family to bring a lamb to the temple to be sacrifice as a atonement for sins.

    This was a a profitable and lucrative business. The animal skin was sold to tent makers. There was a lot of money involve and it would be all gone and out of a job if they admitted that Jesus was the Messiah. So they framed him, arrested him, and had a kangaroo court behind closed doors after sunset. That was against the laws of Moses. They tried to get Pilate take responsibility for crucify Jesus because the religious leader feared the people more then they feared God. If the people would have found out, The religious leaders would have said that they didn’t kill the Messiah, Pilate did. But, Pilate found no crime committed by Jesus and washed his hands for taking responsibility to condemn Jesus. But they wanted him dead and they took responsibility for his death.

    So the truth of the facts are not always received even if there was tons of evidence. How many people don’t believe man went to the moon or the existence of dinosaurs? Even if evidence is produce, people will still claim to be fake evidence.

    To believe is a choice. How you define what you believe is up to you. This is MY OPINION!

    • Jabster

      As the saying goes, everyone is entitled to an opinion but that doesn’t mean that all opinions are equal.

      As another saying goes claiming “… even did miracles and violated the laws of gravity and physics.” is confusing opinion and fact. Now I’m sure you wouldn’t want to do that would you?

    • trj

      For all your talk about accepting the facts, I wonder how far your sense of accomodation stretches when the evidence doesn’t go your way. I have a feeling you absolutely won’t accept those archaeological findings that contradict the Bible, such as the age of Jericho or Ai, which were abandoned respectively 150 and 1000 years before Joshua and his gang allegedly conquered them.

      The Bible contains valuable historic information – some of which has been confirmed and some of which has been rejected – but it is definitely not a history book.

      • Len

        For all your talk about accepting the facts, I wonder how far your sense of accomodation stretches when the evidence doesn’t go your way.

        When the evidence doesn’t agree with the belief, then it’s obviously not evidence about True Facts (TM)

    • Francesc

      For example: trojan ruins were found last century. That means that Odissea and Illiad are historic books. Criptozoologists are going to enjoy cyclops, sirens and Scylla and Caribdis when they found those real animals.
      Of course, it also means that Afrodita, Atenea and Hera are real godesses.

  • Relles Natas

    I just noticed that the next person who posts a comment on this thread will be #666. What better way to permanently seal this thing and ensure no one will ever touch it again?

    If all the atheists and assorted unbelievers quit posting, any born-again loonatic who does so will be forever marked by the number of the beast.

    Bella Ciao.

    #665.

  • Daniel

    I just spent an hour of my life reading this blog. As a bible believe christian, I can say that the majority of people posting here posing as christians got their hind quarters handed to them the moment they fell back to childish name calling when they did not have the mastery of topic or language to make/prove a point.

    Anywho, here is the real reason for my post, my hopes that the poser claiming to have mad stats about abductions will come back without her BS excuses and explain to us why she never posted a single word as promised, other than apologies for not getting permission to do so.

    +If I judged Jesus based on the people that claim to follow him I would not be an atheist, just a Jesus hater. To the ‘christians’ that have posted here, perhaps this is a good stick to measure oneself ?

    +@Relles Nata ~ thank you for always being civil, well spoken and well thought out. A shame more people like you with such a mastery of the English language and the ability to post as adults don’t add to such conversations. I look forward to reading more on this page and hope that others post as eloquently as you!

  • JC

    I have to say, being a christian means also to forgive. Pray for him (Mike Warnke) and forgive him! Jesus forgave you!

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      Have you quite grasped the point of an online atheist community?

  • Robroy

    to chaplainjudi, why do you need permission to provide the links to back up your assertion about missing people before halloween? if they are links, they are on the internet and are publics knowledge. don’t play games. you make a claim like that, then back it up. as you are not using your real name, you have nothing to fear.

    • Spindel

      The reason ChaplainJudi wont produce her evidence or even name the secret agency she volunteers for is simple… she is apart of… and a full supporter of the conspiracy.

      Her claims are simple enough to see through. Her incoherent and tedious ramblings about made up statistical evidence involving quarters and Texas as well as her confused belief that the number of google hits on a word or phrase means any thing about the legitimacy of that word or phrase. Her undocumented story about her pastor being proof of the bible being true. As well as the ‘fact’ that one moment she says “I have conversations with Mike frequently” and the next moment she says “I said I plan to ask Mike about this. We had not been in touch for many years” shows her true nature.

      ChaplainJudi is obviously a Satanist plant intentionally discrediting the ideas she claims to have proof of. This is truly an insidious plot.

  • crissy

    [BuyBull Bable Redacted - Post scripture quotes on Christian forums instead of atheist ones, you'll get a better response] – Teh Srvr Munkehs

    PS …please dont tell me Keith Green was wrong too!!

    • Custador

      Bless ‘em, Teh Srvr Munkehs are cranky tonight! But they’re quite right: Posting Bible quotes does not count as adding to the discussion when one is amongst non-Christians. Please post your own thoughts rather than those purported to be from long-dead Palestinians.

    • Sunny Day

      PS …please dont tell me Keith Green was wrong too!!

      Possibly, but Don Burmeister most certainly was wrong.

    • http://fugodeus.com Nox

      The Keith Green who referred to 1978 as “the last days”? Why would anyone say he was wrong?

  • moe

    After reading through this long list of responses, I noticed that “chaplain judi” weaseled out of showing proof of her personal evidence from her alleged law enforcement related job where she made the children kidnapped for human sacrifice claim.

    I’m not surprised. This was about a Christian liar Mike Warnke and I ‘ve seen Christans outright lie too many times to take them at their word. And how coincidental her supposed hubby posts in. BTW that is an old junior high school level trick game of pretending to be more than one person.

    The irony of christians lying, bearing false witness and knowingly playing decieving games — much like their Satan– should be obvious.

  • Sheila Hagenson

    Bottom line-if something is working for you, that’s wonderful. It’s when it’s not that’s the problem. Anyone who claims to believe in something and wants to share it with others because they want them to live that way too, but they are angry, miserable people and then they want to tell other people how to live-there is something very wrong with that.


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