Thank God for holy books — otherwise how would people know it’s morally right to punish women rape victims?
A 16-year-old girl who was raped in Bangladesh has been given 101 lashes for conceiving during the assault.
The girl’s father was also fined and warned the family would be branded outcasts from their village if he did not pay.
According to human rights activists, the girl, who was quickly married after the attack, was divorced weeks later after medical tests revealed she was pregnant.
The girl was raped by a 20-year-old villager in Brahmanbaria district in April last year.
Bangladesh’s Daily Star newspaper reported that she was so ashamed following the attack that she did not lodge a complaint.
Her rape emerged after her pregnancy test and Muslim elders in the village issued a fatwa insisting that the girl be kept in isolation until her family agreed to corporal punishment.
Her rapist was pardoned by the elders. She told the newspaper the rapist had “spoiled” her life.
“I want justice,” she said.
(via)
Just warped.
You don’t have all the facts. It was later revealed that her burqa was too short, she was flashing a full 1/4″ of her right ankle at her attacker..er.. I mean suiter. This girl is truly evil – how else you explain someone who would do such a vile thing to shake the muslim faith of the attacker..er..I mean suiter.
101 lashes?! I say bury her waist deep and stone her!
Praise the Lord!
The girl had leg showing? Well, obviously she had it coming, then. And I don’t think she’s evil, just terribly misguided. Thinking that wearing a shorter burka would be ok with the almighty lord, or mohammed or whoever.
but shouldn’t the parents be lashed for allowing their daughter to walk around with her leg showing? and why was her attacker or suiter punished? he should be just as punished for raping her as she was.
Truly awful, inhumane and unspeakably cruel. It’s right out of the Old Testament (albeit a lighter sentence, considering the OT would have had her stoned for not crying out loudly enough to attract attention during the attack).
It’s completely natural and common for victims of rape and sexual assault to remain silent after the attack, to self-blame and feel ashamed and afraid. It’s a very human reaction to a very inhuman act. The people responsible for this should be jailed.
Since she is an unmarried girl the nice men who wrote the OT will just have her marry her rapist (Deuteronomy 22 28-29).
She should have said that an invisible ghost let her pregnant, and her son was destined to be the next god’s prophet.
She lives in a Musliom village. Suggesting the possibility of any prophet but old Bomb-In-Turban would get her stoned to death for sure.
It’s rather depressing that this sort of news is not surprising. :(
i, for one, am running out of ways to call situations like this “ass-backwards.” because it is, and it happens continually, and what can be done to stop it? a complete overhaul of the social and moral zeitgeist in regions like this? it’ll take generations of freely- and differently-thinking individuals to incite any real motions towards positive change. this is all hypothetical, of course. but i suppose all positive progress is slow progress (unless you’re microwaving popcorn, then it’s almost instantaneous positive progress.)
Evil girl. She should’ve known she might get pregnant if she let herself be raped.
(No, don’t bother. I’ll strangle myself, thank you.)
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This makes me want to puke.
Christianity can be pretty stupid at times, and its proponents decidedly insensitive (witness the recent idiocies emanating from the Magical Talking Anus) but when it comes to pure, unadulterated evil, it still has something to learn from that perversion of all that is good and just that has the hypocrisy to call itself a religion of peace. Sam Harris nailed it – we should not ‘respect’ this kind of belief just because it calls itself religious. We have a moral duty to condemn it, loudly, at every available opportunity.
I don’t think it has much to do with the religion in question.
When Christian dominated areas were more socially backward, there were these sorts of abuses. I think it has far more to do with the poverty and lack of education in these areas than the particular belief they espouse. The uglier aspects of any religion just need a nice potting soil of ignorance and desperation to grow in.
Exactly. Poverty and lack of education are the underlying causes for things like this. In areas where poverty is alleviated and education is plentiful, women have more control over their lives. In poor areas where education is lacking, women are systematically abused.
Religious beliefs provide a great ally for those who justify this kind of behavior, but getting rid of religious beliefs wouldn’t change things. The folks in charge would find other ways to justify their behavior. “Tradition” would be cited (in general appeals to religion are just appeals to tradition with a “God said so” trump card played in addition).
(And to those who want to say that Christianity is “better” than Islam because of stuff like this – look at the history of chattel slavery in the West and how it was justified by Christian theologians for centuries. Educated Christian theologians, which makes it seem worse to me somehow. Same crap, different religion.)
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
– Steven Weinberg
I don’t agree with Steven on the 2nd part. Religions are just excuses for unreasonable proofs.
That really applies here. Religion, all religion, keeps people from looking outside of the box – at rationality – and creating social progress. Religion keeps people mired in the old ways. This is usually because the theistic gods are male, arbitary, violent, and cruel. All of them. Therefore, this is total legitimacy for male humans who wish to act the same way. Look where they get their role modeling. As long as we have religion, we will have these kinds of horrors.
Religions are dead without human propagation. Humans create and propagate religions to legitimize their intentions and doings.
Even today, the Catholic Church at least feels that if a 9 year old girl is raped and somehow gets pregnant, she should be forced to carry the baby to term regardless of the physical damage it might do to her, and anyone compassionate enough to help her should be cut off from communion with the church and burn in hell forever. I wouldn’t say Islam is any more evil or violent than Christianity, it just gets more opportunities these days since most Christianised areas of the world happen to have evolved societies who don’t let the church dominate them to such a degree.
What he said.
As happened in Brazil a couple of years ago, I recall. The girl terminated her pregnancy – and cardinal Ratzinger and his crew of clowns promtly excomunicated* her, her parents and all of the medical staff involved. The rapist? He still counts as a good Catholic, apparently.
( *NB -”excomunicated”: The Catholic threat equivalent to “I shall scream and scream and scream until I am sick because you won’t let me have my own way” ).
Last year, actually.
The rapist is also her stepfather. He was moving on to abuse her sister, who is handicapped.
He is now resting merrily in jail. I hope he rots there.
She was pregnant with twins, too.
I remember that incident. I was utterly disgusted by the bishops and priests who tried to justify the excommunication of the medical staff who helped the child, and that the only reason the kid herself did not suffer a similar fate was because she was “too young.”
And not once did they mention anything about punishing or excommunicating the step-dad for his atrocity. That load of crock was one of the factors that finally convinced me to leave the church for good.
That event is henced burned into my memory, a black mark to remind me of why the church is no moral bastion.
When I read crap like this it makes me wonder how anyone can ask me why I’m so cynical and misanthropic.
You know, that was exactly what my parents said when they were asking me why I never said anything good about religion anymore.
Then I showed them Papa Ratzi’s inane quotes on homosexuality.
How are these people not being pursued by the UN for violations of human rights?
Because religion is off limits?
Also many of the countries in which these abuses occur have chairs on the human rights boards of the UN. They spend most of their time trying to force through resolutions that would make it illegal for people to ‘defame’ their religion. You know like pointing out how monstrous their concept of justice is.
The UN is a joke, a sick, sick, post-colonial joke.
Yep. Apparently Catholic Ireland is staunchly opposed to the UN enforcing deffamation of religion laws (which would basically stop anybody from ever criticising Islam) despite their own anti-blasphemy laws (which are pretty much designed to stop us all from pointing out that the Catholic church consists of a bunch of paedos).
Yes, but they are trying to protect the truth and not some made up mumbo jumbo!
There has to be some line established than establishes when an act becomes a criminal offense. This is seriously disturbing to me.
sorry, too many establish…’s
Justification for “religion” wars because of greed and hatred?
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.
Yeah, but don’t forget the religious nut who sneaked on board!
Unsolicited Aliens quote! Gotta love it!
Everything I have to say about this can be found here: http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com/2010/01/rape-victim-receives-101-lashes-for.html
This is hardly the worst they put women through with Sharia Law in effect. Hardly. Sad, but far worse offenses have been done. The girl is lucky she only received lashes and not the death penalty. If you see nothing wrong with me having to put “lucky” there, then…
And thats religious morality. “My holy book says so thus its right!”
But my holy book says your holy book is stupid!
But my common sense says both your holy books are stupid!
But my holy book was written by the All Mighty Dog!
But my holy book contains a passage that says my holy book is true.
But my holy book contains a passage that says it is true and a passage that says all other holy books are false. Therefore, my book is clearly true.
I’m having a (holy) book burning – any takers?
Does this involve rolling up some monster doobs, cause I’m down with that. Nothing quite like Bible for rolling papers.
My holy book is bigger than your holy book.
My holy book can totally beat up your holy book.
My holy book is an honor student.
I’m not sure we can take this article at face value. While my anecdotal experiences can not be used as proof of anything, I do have some first-hand experience in dealing with these kinds of justice systems because I have lived in the middle-east for many years. It appears to me that this sentence is much more consistent with the idea that the village elders were not convinced by her story that she was raped. It appears to be much more consistence with the idea that they concluded she was engaging in consensual sex and made up the rape story after her pregnancy. I’ve tried clicking through the references to try and gain additional info., but that effort has not been successful.
I wish to repudiate in advance, the idea that I am trying to blame the victim. I think the sentence would be unjustified in any case. This should not have happened. However, the interpretative characterization that she was punished for being raped, as opposed to being punished for promiscuity, may not be correct. If we are going to use this example to inform our perceptions of the religious group, we must be careful that we analyze/condemn the judgment for what it actually was, as opposed to what the article said it was.
Thanks for that point of view Matthew. Challenging our presuppositions is critical to remain skeptics and not cynics.
She might have feared an honor killing by her father, so she decided to lie about being raped. Anything could have happened, and the truth is something we will never get out of a reclusive society like that.
Either option, as you pointed out, is atrocious. No one should be whipped or punished for having consensual sex.
This explanation would help make sense of the fact that they pardoned the man involved. I suppose a man cannot be punished for permiscuity in Islam? Are they against sex before marriage for both males and females? or just females?
The orginal article doesn’t say the man was pardoned. That was added by people downstream trying to summarize the original.
Because these situations are so often barbaric and unjust, I share the inclination to condemn this as a travesty of justice. However, I think there are some points in the original article that should be noted to get the full picture.
***
The young woman did not mention to her rape to authorities. (There could be many reasons for that)
The only proof that this guy actually raped her is the testimony of ‘family sources’.
The young man is outside the jurisdiction of the village elders, meaning they couldn’t have prosecuted him even if they though there was enough proof.
The family married her to a different man, without disclosing that she was six months pregnant. (Surely she was aware she was pregnant at the time they were arranging a marriage to another man.)
The family does technically have access to the state judicial system. (There are a variety of reasons why this might not be viable).
***
Even if we take the facts in the article at face value, it appears there is a sufficient amount of data available to ask if the fine imposed on the family was in fact related to them marrying their daughter off without disclosing that she was pregnant.
I find it interesting that this post occurs in such close proximity to the article on this site regarding women lying about the paternity of their kids under social pressure (virgin birth). Is it implausible to contemplate that she became pregnant through consensual sex with this guy/another guy/who knows?, and then attributed the pregnancy to a rape by a young man in another village (knowing he was outside the jurisdiction of the local elders)? Would not these ‘family sources’ be likely to lie under social pressure?
At this point I think I would be remiss not to express my horror at the description of the execution of the sentence. I think it is horrific, and I don’t wish to excuse it at all. It should not have happened.
I want to clarify that my comment is about questioning that she was sentenced for being raped and getting pregnant, as opposed to being punished for having sex and lying. Of course, as I say above, the punishment is unjustified regardless, but it is relevant to the accuracy of the headline statement: “Rape Victim Receives 101 Lashes for Becoming Pregnant”
Matthew, if she’s claiming it was rape, it was rape.
I’m not so sure. People do lie, you know, even young pregnant women.
Which doesn’t make the situation any less despicable, of course.
There is imo only one thing a woman can do that is as despicable as rape – and that is falsely accusing a man of rape. I believe such instances are unusual, but they have been known, and on very rare occasions, been prosecuted.
Falsely accusing someone on a rape is as depicable as actually raping someone? Can you check that sentence again, please?
I’m sorry, but legal hassles are nothing compared to being fucking RAPED. I hope you never have to find that out the hard way, Mike.
Having seen the outcome of both things, up close and personal in people I care about, while I would never claim that being unjustly accused is the same as being raped, it is far far more damaging that just ‘legal hassles’.
Both are vile crimes, and should be punished accordingly.
Ty, there really is a huge difference between being ASSAULTED and FORCED TO HAVE SEX, and dealing with false charges.
The assault has lifelong repercussions for the survivor, she will never be the same. Ever. How do I know this? FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE. (And I wish I had reported it — the abuse and the anal rape — to the authorities.)
A man falsely accused? Well, shit, if it’s truly a FALSE allegation, the facts will show at trial, and he’ll be found not guilty. That’s… just nowhere near the same thing.
I understand the emotions tied to this issue. I know exactly how devastating a rape can be. I really do, for reasons I don’t want to go into detail on.
But I’ve also seen a person’s life completely destroyed by a false accusation of sexual assault. Not “go to court and clear it up.” Completely. Destroyed.
I am not calling the crimes equivalent, I am just saying they are both quite damaging to the victim. And one should not be blown off as no big deal because it isn’t the same as the other.
No, Ty, you DON’T understand the damage.
I had to literally re-train my body to accept touch. Any touch. I couldn’t even hug my Dad without flinching. I still can’t handle unexpected contact, even by family. People standing behind me or lurking over whatever I’m doing act as a trigger, because that’s what HE would do. Dad gets angry, and I run and hide — I know he won’t hurt me, but I can’t help feeling like I’m in danger. And if something touches my tail-hole… well, my life-mate can tell you from first-hand experience, I FREAK OUT.
Yeah, sure, I’m healing. I’m getting better. But I will never be the same as I was Before.
If I sound angry, I AM. I am past angry, actually, and don’t even have the words to express it. The police, on the occasions I DID report the abuse, did NOTHING. The justice system? NADA.
Rape and abuse are FAR WORSE than a false allegation of rape or abuse.
A false allegation can be cleared up.
The mental and emotional scars, the trauma of being abused and/or raped? Not so much….
So stop trying to compare the two, stop saying that false allegations are “just as damaging” — because they’re not.
Kitty, you are putting words in my mouth. Stop doing that.
“No, Ty, you DON’T understand the damage.”
You are making assumptions here about what may or may not have happened to me in the past that you are, frankly, in no position to make. Stop doing that.
“So stop trying to compare the two, stop saying that false allegations are “just as damaging” — because they’re not.”
Not only have I not done that, but I have explicitly said they are not equivalent.
Then why do you continue to claim that false allegations are “just as damaging”?
Especially when so many victims of rape and abuse are dismissed as “lying”, or “out to get him”?
Lives are completely destroyed by rape and abuse. People DIE because of it.
Now please, PROVE that even ONE person’s life was “completely destroyed” by false allegations. (With relevant court documents.) If you cannot provide that proof, I will assume you are lying.
And if you really do understand the emotional baggage I and other survivors carry, TRY SHOWING SOME FREAKIN’ SYMPATHY.
Please show me the quote where I said they were just as damaging. I can’t find it. I can, however, find several places where I said they were not.
“Lives are completely destroyed by rape and abuse. People DIE because of it.”
Ok, that is true. It has nothing to do with anything I said.
“Now please, PROVE that even ONE person’s life was “completely destroyed” by false allegations. (With relevant court documents.) If you cannot provide that proof, I will assume you are lying.”
This is offensive, and, considering the point you are trying to make, deeply ironic.
“And if you really do understand the emotional baggage I and other survivors carry, TRY SHOWING SOME FREAKIN’ SYMPATHY.”
Nothing I said was unsympathetic. In fact, quite to the contrary. I’m deeply sorry that you have been so devastated by what happened to you. Rape is a vile crime, and rapists are evil people. Talking about other crimes does not lessen this. The total evil in all possible crimes is not a zero sum game. If you say, “Rape is evil!” And I say, “Yes. Also, this crime is evil,” it does not reduce the evil content of rape.
I’ve had some awful things done to me. Some things that most people would not be able to understand without having gone through a similar ordeal. I do not believe this means I have the only valid opinions on those topics, and that I can yell down anyone who chooses to speak on them. How is that helping anything?
WMDKitty, are you falsely accusing Ty just to proof your point?
No, I’m not accusing anyone of anything. I’m just saying that, if he truly knows of a person whose life was, and I quote, “completely destroyed” by false allegations of rape, he should be able to provide details of said allegation and “destruction”, as well as point us to the relevant court case.
If he won’t, it suggests he knows the allegations were, in fact, true, and I must conclude that Ty is knowingly lying to cover for a rapist.
If he can’t… well… I can’t believe something I have no evidence for, and must conclude that Ty is making it up.
Simple logic.
Some women will lie, yes, and those few who file false charges should be arrested and prosecuted.
THE REST OF US shouldn’t have to suffer ongoing abuse from partners and society in general just because this woman or that woman lied about being abused or raped.
I am tired of having my veracity called into question over a situation that would never have happened if I’d had a choice in the matter. I am tired of having to explain that, if I could have gotten out safely at an earlier date, I would have. I’m sick and tired of MEN that assume I must have “deserved” it — I’ll admit, I’m stubborn, and I hold my own in verbal arguments, but that in no way excuses the behavior of my ex. It was entirely HIS fault, HIS lack of self-control, that harmed me.
MEN lie too, and with much greater harm done — “I promise I won’t ever hit you.” “I promise it won’t happen again.” “If you tell me to stop, I will.”
And the excuses follow: “You MADE me hit you.” “If you hadn’t MADE ME ANGRY, I wouldn’t have split your lip.” “I couldn’t help myself.” “She was wearing a mini-skirt.” “She was dancing provocatively.” “If she didn’t want it, why did she wear X?”
The simple truth is, MEN NEED TO LEARN HOW TO CONTROL THEMSELVES.
I don’t care if you’re angry, that’s no excuse for beating the crap out of me. I don’t care if you “couldn’t stop”, I SAID NO. I don’t care if what I’m doing or what I’m wearing influences your thoughts, it’s not an invitation to have sex. I don’t care if you’re attempting to forcibly dominate me through rape, it is still YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO CONTROL YOURSELF.
There is no such thing as a rapist “unable” to control themselves, they consciously decide to assault women, they MAKE THE CHOICE to ruin a life.
Even if rape and abuse is about power and control, it still comes down to one simple fact: rapists and abusers have zero self-control, which is why they wish to control others.
I find this discussion a bit disturbing. WMDkitty, clearly you are still furious about what happened. I get it – it happened to me too. And to many others – men too. But I think anger sometimes clouds the issue. Everyone here agrees that rape is a horrible crime. But other crimes are also horrible. Not the same, but terrible too. I knew someone who was accused of child molestation – and he turned out to be innocent. He is now essentially shunned in the community. He can’t get a job. Wife left him, and once a woman finds out she’s embarrassed to be with him. He has been labelled, for life, as the worst kind of predator. All because of an accusation that wasn’t true! The accusations are on the front page, in large print…the aquittal is on page 12, as an afterthought. This man’s life was destroyed by a false allegation. Because there’s always that seed of doubt…what if he really did that? You can never really leave that behind. Once some words are said, they destroy. I’m NOT minimizing rape, or the permanent impact of rape. It took me many years to get over mine (“get over” is the wrong word – I would say get over the anger and move on a little wiser & sadder). So I understand you need to vent – but I think you may be misunderstanding or misjudging Ty because you’re so pissed off. And it’s ok to be pissed off! Just try not to attack people who actually agree with you! There’s enough bad guys out there – let’s go after them instead!
Thanks, Janet.
It became clear to me that the conversation had left the rational discourse rails, and there was no way to bring it back, but I appreciate your comments.
I do admit that I find this particular behavior inexplicable and quite disturbing. As a man who has never hit a woman in his life, and who finds even the idea of rape vile in the extreme, and who has been the victim of sexual assault in his own life, I am deeply disturbed by how willy nilly such accusations are thrown around in discussions of this nature. It seems that some people view their victimization as carte blanche to viciously attack anyone at any time. The ‘men are all evil pigs because I was hurt’ is a terrible and unhelpful position to take. It is akin to, “All women are sluts because one cheated on me,” which I would hope all women find just as offensive.
“I knew someone who was accused of child molestation – and he turned out to be innocent. He is now essentially shunned in the community. He can’t get a job. Wife left him, and once a woman finds out she’s embarrassed to be with him. He has been labelled, for life, as the worst kind of predator. All because of an accusation that wasn’t true! The accusations are on the front page, in large print…the aquittal is on page 12, as an afterthought. This man’s life was destroyed by a false allegation.”
This. Exactly this. And the idea that WMDKitty can call me a liar and a defender of rapists because I won’t parade the man’s name across yet another website for her edification is, frankly, insane.
I’m deeply sorry you were hurt, Kitty. I hope you find a way to make peace with it someday. But this attack on me was uncalled for and deeply offensive.
I begin to doubt WMDKitty claims that she was raped.
That is not helpful, DM. Really really really not helpful.
THIS is so NOT a good way to prove a point.
Sorry. I give her back the benefit of doubt.
Fuck you, DarkMatter. That was low.
I’m in therapy for my issues, and it helps. And yes, I’m ANGRY.
I don’t understand the attitude here that the victim has no right to be angry, or upset. I don’t understand why the local men can’t comprehend that, yes, it is their job to train their sons that no means no, and their daughters to know they are in control of their own bodies.
Rape and abuse, yes, are about power and control. BECAUSE the rapist and/or abuser feel like they have no control over their own lives, they try to take power over others.
Yeah, Darkmatter had no call to go there.
“I don’t understand the attitude here that the victim has no right to be angry, or upset. I don’t understand why the local men can’t comprehend that, yes, it is their job to train their sons that no means no, and their daughters to know they are in control of their own bodies.”
What I don’t understand is how you have gotten the impression that any of those things are true. You are kind of having an argument with yourself here. You keep attacking positions no one is actually taking.
I don’t have kids, but I used to teach as assistant instructor in a rape prevention class. I taught hundreds of girls and women how to defend themselves from sexual assault. You can bet I’ve taught my wife everything I know on the topic. And as soon as my friend’s daughter is old enough to understand what’s going on, he wants me to begin teaching her the basics of avoiding dangerous situations and protecting herself. I have no idea where you are getting the ideas you are getting about the other people on this blog. No one is claiming the things you are arguing against, and in fact the people you are attacking are not only sympathetic, but at least in my case have gone way above and beyond the call of duty in helping solve the problem.
Seriously. What are you doing?
Authenticity is always preferred over pretense, is admirable. Personally, (I realize it probably wont mean too much to her coming from me but still) I admire and commend WMDkitty’s candor, sincerity in all this hardship, pain and suffering she has unfortunately endured. Takes a “real” person to be, well real with others, even if the anger sometimes spills out, and it will..let it spill girl, let it spill.
My heart goes out to you Kitty, get well girl, heal up, love wins out in the end, it really, really does.
(ps…the term “girl” is meant to communicate an endearing context, not meaning to offend pls)
As for you DarkMatter… “Teach me to feel anothers woe; To hide the fault I see; That mercy I to others show, That mercy show to me”. (some old, long dead guy).
Thank you, John.
It is more likely to happen if the woman would face punishment for consensual sex.
Funny how every comment alleging that she’s lying come from MEN….
*comes from
Sorry, I had a grammar fail.
I’m a girl and I do think it’s possible she’s lying, much as I think it’s possible for anyone to lie.
I frankly am not inclined to take anyone at face-value simply because of gender; especially if punishment for consensual sex is worse than for rape. That’s not to say she wasn’t raped – she might as well have been – but I don’t know.
I believe that the correct response to a rape allegation is to treat the person claiming rape as if they were a victim up until we know they were not, and the person accused of the rape as innocent up until we know they are not.
It is entirely possible to do both things, and it is the path least likely to lead to additional harm.
Well, let’s see — most RAPISTS will say that “she wanted it.” Or that “her body said yes.” Or some other stupid excuse. So it really isn’t too difficult to determine that:
a) RAPISTS LIE.
b) Victims are reluctant to come forward because WE WILL BE JUDGED — not as victims, but as “whores”. After all, if we were drunk, or high, or dancing suggestively, or wearing anything that might be considered “enticing”, or just walking in the wrong part of town, we must have been “asking for it”. We are treated as if we are responsible for our assaults.
Until society at large recognizes that the problem lies solely with MEN, this will be a problem.
And men, if you want to help women out, especially survivors, you will not only learn to control yourselves, but train your sons to control themselves as well — teach them that ANYTHING other than a verbal “Yes” should be taken as a refusal of their advances, and RESPECT IT by STOPPING.
“a) RAPISTS LIE.”
This does not mean that everyone who claims not to have committed a rape is actually a rapist lying about it. You do know that, right?
“b) Victims are reluctant to come forward because WE WILL BE JUDGED — not as victims, but as “whores”. After all, if we were drunk, or high, or dancing suggestively, or wearing anything that might be considered “enticing”, or just walking in the wrong part of town, we must have been “asking for it”. We are treated as if we are responsible for our assaults.”
This is truly awful, and some terrible things have been done to victims by defense attorneys looking for ways to exonerate their clients. I do feel like this is less and less common, and some legal changes have been made to provide greater protection to victims. I think we need to keep working on ways to avoid re-victimizing the victims of crimes during the trials. The legal system is an imperfect and evolving construct. Hopefully we can keep making it better.
“Until society at large recognizes that the problem lies solely with MEN, this will be a problem.”
This reads a lot like, “Men commit the kind of rape I care about, therefore Men are evil.” Women commit rape too. Women are raped in female prisons by other women all the time, and women commit statutory rape on underage boys. Women don’t commit the kind of rape (maybe) that hurt you personally, but that doesn’t make all the other kinds lesser crimes.
“And men, if you want to help women out, especially survivors, you will not only learn to control yourselves, but train your sons to control themselves as well — teach them that ANYTHING other than a verbal “Yes” should be taken as a refusal of their advances, and RESPECT IT by STOPPING.”
I think that claiming rape is men ‘not controlling themselves’ is both failing to recognize the root psychological cause of most male rapes, and it paints men as slavering beasts who will use rape to satisfy their sexual urges if they haven’t been sufficiently trained not to. I think this is simplistic and incorrect. The pathology of rapists has less to do with sex than with violence and power fantasies. At least in all the literature I’ve read.
I never said rapists don’t lie. They DO, and that’s horrible, very very horrible.
But so are women capable of lying, especially if their lives are at risk, as would probably be the case here – if she’s taking lashes for being raped, what would she get if she had consensual sex? Hell, I’d lie to save my skin too. I’ve no qualms about that.
I regard people as equal and no gender fundamentally better than the other. If I acknowledge rapists lie – and they DO – I can acknowledge that some women lie, too. And that’s evil and sick and wrong, but that’s the way the world is.
Frankly, I won’t pretend all women are saints because not all men are saints.
I’m not saying this woman’s lying. I’m saying the possibility that she might be exists. Simple like that.
Having been both the victim of sexual assault and falsely accused of rape, I can say with some authority that being sexually assaulted is way worse than being accused of it. Bruised pride and embarassment heal a whole lot faster than PTSD and lacerations.
No one, at any point, said they were the same. People are acting as though it was said, but it never actually was.
Fair enough, then.
Kitty, if you ever need to chat to somebody else who’s been there, ask Daniel for my email addy.
Hi Custador – it might be strange for a woman, and someone who has been the victim of rape (and spousal abuse for years) would say this, but I think false accusations have far greater repercussions than bruised pride. It can mean real, permanent, serious losses. Some bells cannot be un-rung.
I was over-simplifying, however the point remains that *actually getting raped* is much, much worse. Really. With the actual rape you have to deal with all the same emotional issues of feeling violated, but with actual physical harm thrown in.
And a lot depends on age, too. A child is actually more vulnerable than an adult, and is generally less able to process the trauma intellectually, regardless of the sex of the victim.
News out today on Huffpost – young Turkish girl murdered by her family in honor killing for talking to boys! How she died? She was BURIED ALIVE!!!!! Oh, the glory of religion. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/05/turkish-girl-buried-alive_n_450019.html And if anyone tries to argue that this is not religious, it’s cultural, that’s bullshit. It is the patriarchal abrahamic religions that have created legitimacy for abuses against women, and have stymied progress in every part of the world. If religion falls, these “cultures” have nothing to stand on – no authority to explain why it’s ok to do this kind of CRAP to girls. My fervent wish is that there IS A HELL so that people who do this kind of thing could be tortured forever. If that’s not possible, maybe time alone in a room with one of these asshole things – he’d show himself to be the COWARD that he really is. I am really, really angry – I just read this article myself.
Have any of you ever heard of Timothy Cole? Or Crystal Gail Mangum? Or Duke University?
Yeah, I’ve heard of them, and your point (such as it is) is entirely irrelevant. Women are coerced into lying and saying they weren’t assaulted all the time, by their partner, or sometimes the defense lawyers.
How many rapists and abusers are walking free because they FORCED their victims to recant?
How do defense attorneys coerce them into lying?
I do suppose that rape within the context of an abusive relationship would be reported much less often than other rapes.
Michael, the prosecution rate for rape is pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. There is no way on Earth that all of the men who get “not guilty” verdicts are actually not guilty.
Again, though, this is not a good reason to assume everyone accused is guilty.
We need to do a better job of prosecuting the crime and protecting the victims. But we need to do it without abandoning our principles of “presumption of innocence.”
And if we assume that everyone who is deemed ‘not guilty’ by the court actually was guilty and just forced his accuser to recant, then that’s exactly what we are doing.
I absolutely agree that we should never assume that the accused is guilty.
Sadly, as with any crime where the evidence boils down to one person’s word against the other, rape is a very hard thing to prove.
What we need to do as a society is to STOP stigmatising victims (something which, in the UK, women are more guilty of than men according to a recent survey) and encourage them to come forward IMMEDIATELY, while there is still physical evidence. That means better trained police, better trained and more rape-counselors, better Forensic Medical Examiners and a less judgemental society.
At the same time, we need to start educating boys from a very young age that NO means NO, regardless of the circumstances – you stop whatever you’re doing right there. Frankly, though, in my own country sex education is pathetic – and I’m pretty sure it’s worse in yours – so before we can teach boys what consensual sex means we have to also teach them what just sex means.
It is pretty obvious that no means no.
Absolutely agree.
I suppose it’s even worse for some victims – the girls who are pretty or have “a reputation” (whatever the hell that means), prostitutes and other various sex workers…
It’s disgusting that in my country, until recently, a prostitute couldn’t press charges for rape. Nor could a married woman raped by her husband.
Truly depressing.
What about those who get guilty verdicts who are not guilty? I don’t know if rape by the same sex in prison count as rape outside of prison because of the verdict.
Maybe it’s less devastating because they are in prison away from public pressure or is it?.
Honestly, I doubt it happens. Like I said – if it’s his word versus hers and there’s no physical evidence, it’ll always be a “not guilty” verdict. If there IS physical evidence… Well.
“http://www.411mania.com/politics/columns/128236″
This one website beside others must be lying also if your doubt is correct.
To prosecute rape, we need to prove guilt beyond a reasomable doubt.
The cases of Timothy Cole and Crystal Gail Mangum just makes it harder.
Custador,
I should note that false rape accusations can undermine our criminal justice system, especially if they result in conviction.