Beck on Bat Creek

Glenn Beck does a lot of talking about God. The odd thing about that is that he does it while surrounded by Christians – most probably evangelicals – while Beck himself is a Mormon. The Mormons may believe in the same God as the rest of Christianity, but they believe he has a very different nature. How Beck handles having such differences with his primary audience is an interesting question.

James McGrath points out how many in Beck’s audience have co-opted the Progressive Christian arguments for ecumenical co-existence. But every now and then, Beck still puts his foot in it. He did so a couple weeks ago, when he mentioned an odd item called the Bat Creek Stone. Beck believes that the Stone is evidence for the Mormon version of North American pre-history.

The Stone

The Bat Creek Stone was discovered in 1889 in a burial mound at the confluence of the Bat Creek and Little Tennessee River. It was discovered by John Emmert, a semi-trained archaeologist working for the Smithsonian. Emmert claimed to have found the Stone along with some copper bracelets, wood fragments and skeletons in the mound. Later tests would date the wood fragments to the first CE.

The most notable feature of the Stone was the eight characters engraved upon it. Emmert claimed that these were Cherokee. This caused some obvious problems, since the Cherokee alphabet was only created by Sequoyah around 1828, and the mound was clearly much older than that.

Emmert’s superior at the Smithsonian, Dr. Cyrus Thomas, already believed that the mounds had been created by the Cherokee or their ancestors. Thomas was willing to argue that the symbols used in the Cherokee language were actually a great deal older than previously thought. He later seemed to abandon this argument, and may have decided that the Stone was a forgery.

Despite the initial flurry this generated, the Stone seemed to disappear off the radar. It continued to attract very little attention up until the 1970s. That’s when Dr. Cyrus Gordon (yes, another Cyrus), a professor of Mediterranean Studies, claimed that when you inverted the stone it became clear that the characters were actually Hebrew. He admitted that three of the characters were problematic, but suggested that the stone might read “for the Jews.”

The Current Debate

Gordon was a proponent of a very old idea: that the Old World and the New World had been in contact after the migration of the Native Americans and before Columbus. He suggested that the Stone proved that people had migrated to America during the Roman Empire. Most other proponents of the theory have different ideas, and the stone is frequently mentioned by people who argue that it shows a connection between ancient Jews and modern Native Americans. You can imagine the connections with the Lost Tribes of Israel or Mormon pseudo-history.

The debate has continued, most prominently in the pages of the Biblical Archeology Review, where Huston McCullough argued for its authenticity. One of the best responses to Gordon was an article by Robert C. Mainfort and Mary L. Kwas in the The Tennessee Anthropologist, available online here.

In order to understand the symbols, the authors contacted Frank Moore Cross, at that point the Hancock Professor of Hebrew and Other Oriental Languages at Harvard. Dr. Cross is famous for his work on the Dead Sea Scrolls, being one of only two Americans on the scroll-publishing team.

Cross’ verdict is pretty damning: of the eight characters on the stone, six cannot be identified as paleo-Hebrew script. Faced with that, the most probable conclusion is that the Stone is a fabrication, rather than evidence of Hebrew contact with the New World or the preexistence of the Cherokee alphabet. Since there are no photographs or reports from the dig, it is impossible to say with any certainty that the stone wasn’t placed by Emmert or someone else at the time.

Conclusions


There’s a fair bit of speculation as to why a forgery would be created. Mainfort and Kwas suggest that Emmert was trying to gain support from his boss, who believed that the mounds were the work of the ancestors of the Cherokee. Another theory has it that Luther Meade Blackman, a Union veteran and local stone cutter, was trying to set Emmert, a former Confederate soldier, up to be fired by planting a fake stone.

I don’t know how much this kind of speculation is going to gain us. My inclination is to rest on Cross’ statements about the stone. It’s a forgery, and finding out who created it and why is less important than making sure its nature is understood.

But let’s set its nature aside for the moment, and look at the arguments that it’s used for. Let’s assume that it does, as Gordon suggests, read “for the Jews.” What does that tell us?

Not nearly as much as many pseudo-archeologists would often like. It would presumably show some contact between the Middle East and North America, but contact does not equal influence. Consider the Maine Penny(above). While its exact provenance is still unknown, it seems likely to be a real Norwegian silver penny. But no one is going to suggest that it proves the Natives Americans are really descendants of Vikings. At most, it’s a sign that the Vikings who may have briefly settled in Vinland might have traded south farther than expected.

  • dutchhobbit

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE6mft9TnLc

    excellent video on the same subject.

  • Yoav

    My guess is that the majority of Beck’s xtian fundie followers don’t really know his a mormon (they obviously can’t tell he’s a moron). The teacups get all their information predigested by fix noise and since Glenn Beck’s mormonism is not part of the talking points designated by their corporate masters they just don’t trouble their little heads with it.

    • Zen Mermaid

      Yoav .. what an idiotic comment and judgment you made. First of all it’s natural for Beck to want to substantiate his religions book (book of mormon) and it’s origins, it’s an interesting theory, and not abnormal to be inclined to want to find more proof. I don’t blame him at all. Second, investigating the origins of this stone is very interesting, and as many “experts” as people may want to bring into it…we still don’t truly know. But you are very narrow minded in your attack of Beck because he is mormom, see what comes around goes around and a year later, I attack you verbally.

      • Yoav

        What the fcuk does your comment have to do with the fact that fix noise downplays beck’s mormonism or his audience not having no information accept what the Koch brothers are feeding them through Beck and fix noise. My problem with Beck is not his mormonism but his pushing of doomsday and fake information to advance the politics and profits of himself and his masters. Compared to some of the ridiculous stuff he pushed on his show, jesus in america, getting your own planet after death and magic undies hardly rate a chuckle.

        • Zen Mermaid

          Exactly my point…freedom of religion is supposed to include … freedom to BASH. There is a difference between how you deliver you opinion and how people RECEIVE IT. I am not receiving what you are saying well because of HOW you express yourself. You express yourself with great arrogance and hostility…try more neutrality. I have the freedome to criticize you and how you see things too. Don’t I?

          • Yoav

            Have you read the comment you’re replying to? Any way, if you don’t like my style you are free not to read my comments.

            • Zen Mermaid

              Good point, your style sucks, I won’t read your comments, and leave me alone…it will be a great day!

  • nazani14

    “For the Jews” sounds like a land claim to me. I’d rather go with the penny or the Kensington rune stone and claim Norwegian citizenship.

  • http://www.Rapture-Orphan-Rescue.com/ japanther

    What an excellent article. I spent about 2 hours researching various topics mentioned here, from paleo-indian ancestry, to population migrations, and fake fossils etc…

    Thanks for the brain food, vorjack.

  • http://peternothnagle.com Peter N

    But wait! There’s more! It turns out that the inscription on the Bat Creek Stone is almost identical to an illustration in a Masonic reference book that was published shortly before the stone was discovered. So someone, for some reason, carved the Masonic text on this little rock shortly before it was “discovered”.

    • claidheamh mor

      Oh, I love this Masonic text! That’s at least somewhat like stopping in the middle of an argument about how many teeth a horse has and counting the teeth in a horse’s mouth.

    • Zen Mermaid

      This is very interesting! And, you didn’t even bash anyone … good for you.

  • Steve

    Looks like Beck is up Bat Creek without a paddle.

    • Yoav

      You mean Bat [sh*t crazy] creek.

      • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com WMDKitty

        This.

  • Konrad

    Regarding the Penny. It doesn’t even mean that the Vikings got that far south. Just that the penny got traded down. I read somewhere that the first Europeans to get down to New Guinea found that some tribes where already in possession of iron tools that been traded on again and again, moving through several cultures that did not have the knowledge of metal work.

  • Paul S.

    As a former Mormon, I can tell you what’s probably going on here. The Mormon heirarchy has been slowly shelving controversial parts of their dogma, moving closer and closer to mainstream xtians. The confusion for members like Beck is that they still have this crazy book that talks about Jesus visiting the Indians. Their values and every day lives are nearly indistinguishable from mainstream Xtianity. The crazy only comes out when you dig a little deeper.

    • Zen Mermaid

      I am not a very devout mormon and question soooo many things, but you know what…I think it’s wrong down to the bone to put down the whole religion. I would rather respect these people and their beliefs. You and mister Yaov, are idiots of a spiritual nature as well. Stop judging people because of their beliefs, go into a greater space of neutrality and enjoy the uncovering of information about this stone or other discoveries, without putting people down and their religions. This country was supposedly built upon religious freedom. No longer huh, with people like you making small minded comments about other people’s religion. Why can you just enjoy the discoveries and do your best to be non-judgmental!! I don’t like you very much, Paul.

      • Elemenope

        I am not a very devout mormon and question soooo many things, but you know what…I think it’s wrong down to the bone to put down the whole religion.

        If he’s a former mormon as I believe he’s stated, he’s earned the right. Who are you to say that his opinion of his former religion is ill-considered, based as it is on his own experiences from the inside perspective, so to speak?

        Stop judging people because of their beliefs, go into a greater space of neutrality and enjoy the uncovering of information about this stone or other discoveries, without putting people down and their religions.

        Beliefs drive actions, or else are empty dalliances. Hence, it is *important* on some level to judge beliefs, and people for holding them, since beliefs are what motivate what they do that affects those around them.

        This country was supposedly built upon religious freedom. No longer huh, with people like you making small minded comments about other people’s religion.

        That freedom includes freedom from religion, and freedom to criticize religion.

        • Zen Mermaid

          In many ways you are right, and I am not receiving this very well because it seems like everyone is BASHING! People are bashing religion…one can bash races, sexes and anyone or anything conceivable, and I am tired of myself being bashed and I am here to take a stand. Arrogance while bashing doesn’t lend itself to a debate or a conversation. Defining freedom of religion and even freedom from religion leave me one view and that is tolerance…tolerance with religion. It seems people are bashing on this website and not discussing. I then have the “right” to critisize how these comments are coming across, to the same degree that you critisize Beck and the mormon church. But you know, it doesn’t have to be Beck it could be a Blue Footed Booby who worships at the Booby Church. You know the old adage, “it isn’t what you say, but HOW you say it”… HAS A LOT OF TRUTH in it.

          Is it possible to look at a topic, with interest and even differences and not blast to hell a person and their belief system? Have we as a “people” become so cold?

          • Sunny Day

            I’ll go clean off the fainting couch so you can lie down.

            • Zen Mermaid

              Thank you, I could use the rest. I’ll move off the couch for you next time you need a rest. My gratitude!

          • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

            Zen, I hear what you’re saying and I would respond thus:

            When organisations like the LDS church cease and desist all political advocacy, when laws are not enacted based on the religious faith of a tiny minority who’ve spent a lot of money, when legislators start looking at issues in an impartial way instead of through the distorting lense of religion, THEN I will stop bashing churches and religions.

            You might not like it or want to hear it, but the origins story of the LDS is so absurd that it’s laughable. I would expect most eight year olds to treat it as an imaginative fantasy if told about it on the playground. So much of the book of Mormon is proveable lies, the origins story is such patent bull-pucks and the founder such a well known fraud that it is nothing short of idiotic to treat it as truth.

            • Zen Mermaid

              I don’t like the political involvement of ANY church in influencing how voters vote, I believe that to be very unfair, very!!! And, those that do it I feel are advancing their own personal interests. I agree.

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              So you disaproved of the LDS Church effectively buying the Prop 8 vote?

          • Ty

            Some beliefs are stupid.

            You have the right to believe whatever you want. I have the right to point out where those beliefs are stupid. Ain’t freedom grand?

            • Zen Mermaid

              Freedom is grand, and I too get to point it out! PARTY!!!

            • Ty

              So far, you are the only one defending stupid ideas. But if you see someone else do that, please point it out.

      • trj

        Freedom of religion is not the same as being exempt from religious criticism. And while I’m sure most mormons are nice people, let’s face it: the depiction of Hebrew tribes living in North American is utter bullshit. And that is far from the only objectionable thing about mormonism (their history of racism springs to mind). Sorry, but you can’t expect everybody to just smile and nod at your religion in the name of political correctness.

        • Zen Mermaid

          Religious criticism can create “group think” which is dangerous at best. There are steps of escalation as people start to silently agree with the “bad and corrupt nature” of an organization and it’s individuals, like Jews for instance, or Mormons. It can also happen this way with races like the blacks. This is the first step it’s tacit agreement, and then humor about the “group” then it escalates 2 more steps, and the last step is violence against and toward an individual or a group of individuals. The violence could be burning crosses on lawns like back in the day, it could be terminating the life at various levels of someone or a group. You don’t realize it, obviously but all sort of people are out in this world from all walks of life, some more peacable than others. I will never stand by and allow group thinking to start to form around me, so it doesn’t matter if it’s a mormon, a jew or a blue footed booby. If one critisizes, please use some form of humanitarian respect. Do you know that your comments collectively could lead to some crazy out there to commit violence against a mormon, or a blue footed booby? And, how this world was populated contains many questions. I disagree with you, I think it might be very much possible for people from another country to come here, whether it was Isreal or not. After all, unless you are a native american, the chances are your people came here from another country, only later on in time.

          • Yoav

            I think it might be very much possible for people from another country to come here, whether it was Isreal or not. After all, unless you are a native american, the chances are your people came here from another country, only later on in time.

            Do you really can’t see the difference between the likelihood of someone coming to the Americas since the late 1400s and the claim that 1st century jews made the same voyage even though there is no indication of any vessels capable of anything remotely capable of such a voyage in the middle east of 2000 years ago.

            • Zen Mermaid

              Some people have found “proof” of a migration from Egypt to South America way back then. Were ships capable of sailing long distances back then? Only the men who manned the vessels can tell you that. Mankind has always had a very adventurous spirit. There were probably voyages you never knew of … The Romans invaded Ireland, the Norseman were great seaman, how do you know for a FACT? Other than the IDEA that it is “absurd”. That’s a bunch of crap!

            • Ty

              “Some people have found “proof” of a migration from Egypt to South America way back then.”

              No they haven’t. Links please.

            • Sunny Day

              So you take the plaintive cry of “It could have happened that way.”, dress it up in pretty clothes and and slap on some perfume by invoking, “Mankind has always had a very adventurous spirit” and expect us not to spot a turd?

              Is that all you’ve got?

            • Yoav

              I can see why claims made by Thor Hydral, a man who push the idea that gods were really aliens, will appeal to a mormon but it doesn’t count as proof.
              Genetic analysis trace native americans to a Siberian population that migrated over 10000 years ago, not the middle east of 2000 years ago.

            • Ty

              And the theory that Egyptians colonized South America because there are pyramids in both places has been thoroughly debunked.

          • Paul

            Where is your proof that this little blog is going to progress according to that escalation of violence you’ve set up? Criticism can just be criticism. Also, “group think,” really? What about religion, all of them are quite guilty of group think no matter what era we are talking about. And you know what, so far, there is plenty of evidence for the religious group think, as opposed to atheistic, doing damage to society. The crusades, the spanish inquisition, contemporary missionary work (modern day witch hunts in Africa born however inadvertently from fundamentalist missionaries) are a few examples.

            I think you just wrote this bit badly… but:

            “There are steps of escalation as people start to silently agree with the “bad and corrupt nature” of an organization and it’s individuals, like Jews for instance, or Mormons.”

            As I’m reading this, it sounds like you mean that the jewish and mormon communities are both guilty of agreeing with dangerous group think. To say the least, leaving out the anti-semitism rebuttal, this is completely hypocritical as you are trying to condemn us for group think, and shouldn’t even be allowed to criticize your own religion since you wouldn’t let Paul S.

            “And, how this world was populated contains many questions.”

            You should look into the genetic mapping that has been done by biologists. The populations that migrated over to North America happened quite a bit before the Israelite culture existed. We even have a rather decent idea of which populations went where and broke off from whom.

            All you’ve done in this comment is presented a slippery slope argument that is in no way a certainty. Do you realize that the religious blogs with all their comments could lead to some crazy out there to commit violence against an atheist?

            • Zen Mermaid

              I agree with so much of what you say…we are ALL guilty by “all” I mean religious and non religious peoples of group think. I don’t agree that I am ACCUSING YOU and all the commentators on this blog of group think. I am implying that group think does exist and it’s not a good phenomenon, on either side of the board, religious or not. I am aware that people do things that are horrid in the name of God, but people who are not connected to the idea of God, can be pretty horrid too. Ever heard of “man’s inhumanity to man”?

            • Ty

              Getting most atheists to agree on anything is like herding cats. As a group, atheists are the least group-think you’ll find. The one thing we all agree on (no god) is a fairly minor point, overall.

          • Sunny Day

            Yeah atheists have a long history of persecuting people over their religious beliefs. (rolleyes)

            Whats the weather like on your planet?

            • Zen Mermaid

              Pretty good weather we’re having here on Neptune!

          • http://fugodeus.com/ Nox

            This has to be poe. You’re defending mormonism by criticizing groupthink and racism?

            • Zen Mermaid

              I’m not truly defending mormonism. I am defending the right to be mormon or anything else, gay or whatever. I have never agree with the fundamentalist views on gay marriage, I am very liberal. I was simply pointing out that the “group” here is bashing religion, and I think it’s wrong to BASH IN GENERAL. It’s not a good way to be. Without you realizing that way of expressing oneself can, without you knowing, could impact someone else’s thinking. Would you want your son or daughter to grow up being hostile toward groups of people, because they are different? Are you a father? or a mother? Mom, when I grow up I want to bash people…that’s my main objective in life. No, it’s how you not you, but how any group handles themselves. But, methinks much testoterone run rampant through these pages.

            • http://fugodeus.com/ Nox

              You do have the right to be mormon.

              Or gay.

              Or whatever.

              No one here would take that away from you even if they could.

              You do not have a right to a world where no one ever points out the atrocities and lies of the LDS church. If you don’t want people criticizing the institution that committed these actions (out of a lack of respect for other people’s right to their own beliefs), then maybe they shouldn’t have picked some of those fights.

              Here’s the thing. Mormonism is a side effect of the first amendment. It exists and can exist only because of the religious plurality available in the US. And now a church who owes it’s entire existence to the idea that people get to choose their god is trying to take that right away from others and force their beliefs on as many people as they can without regard for whether those people themselves are mormon. And you are telling us we should refrain from pointing that out because it might make mormons look bad. It isn’t “bashing in general” to say out loud what we both know to be true. It is arguing for the freedom you are trying to argue for (how far do you think the LDS church would have gotten in medieval Europe).

              And just to clarify, I consider most ground level mormons innocent, well meaning, stupid pawns who have absolutely no idea where there money goes or how much they have been lied to. I don’t blame every catholic for the pope covering up clerical pederasty. I blame every catholic for keeping the pope in business.

          • http://fugodeus.com/ Nox

            Mermaid,

            Your church has engaged in actual religious persecution. Even if pointing that out might lead to imaginary religious persecution it doesn’t matter. You don’t have a right to force your beliefs upon others and then complain when someone points out the thing you believe is fraudulent.

            The Mountain Meadow Massacre is persecution. Proposition 8 is persecution. The Mark of Cain doctrine is persecution. Forcing all non mormon residents of Utah to live under a mormon theocracy is persecution. People saying (true) things on a website that make you uncomfortable is not persecution.

            • Zen Mermaid

              My church can suck eggs in a big way and I have the scars to prove it, so you needn’t PROVE it to me. I have my questions and struggles with organized religion but even as disaffected as I can be and I don’t ANYONE to “show me the error of my ways” as far as organized religion is concerned. I respect ALL religion, that doesn’t mean I agree with it. But what I personally disagree with since we are talking freedom of speech here, is speaking freely with respect to all. There is something to be said about being a respectful person to another human being, this is my BEEF. Play nice, there is no reason not to, even I who have been through hell, you know not off in regard to this church and in other ways, don’t want to just bash people CAUSE I CAN. This is the main of my “criticism”…and just like you guys have told me if I don’t like it I can stick it where the sun doesn’t shine….back at ya!!!

            • Ty

              I’m not hanging out on a Mormon blog and complaining that people aren’t nice to atheists.

              Why did you expect people who hold religion generally in contempt to play nice with your particular set of silly beliefs?

            • Zen Mermaid

              Nox… I personally oppose the disgusting judgments religion puts on Gays. I am not there!!! Here what I said? I get it…I do. I grew up in West Hollywood which is now a gay community and at the age of 16 is when that transition started to occur, and I went on to at that time 19, become a hair dresser and make up artist, thus many of my friends were gay. I don’t agree with the fundamentalist and the thing about “gay marriage” that everyone went on about, including the other fundamentalist churches I think was a red herring thrown own by the republicans. There are many other topics that need addressing other than is Tom is wearing white or not! Domestic violence and poverty in our country is huge and this is not visible enough, but has great impact on lives.

            • Zen Mermaid

              Believe me I hear what you’re saying about the theocracy in Utah… and I have been trying to escape for years now, and get back to California where I belong!

            • Zen Mermaid

              Nox, on your last post…I am actually not denying that action should be taken to make people aware of the need for change in the mormon church, I actually think it would an amazing thing and a good thing. All I want is people to be kinder or maybe that’s not the right word, but more humane in their comments, but that’s just me, I have never dealt with such a large amount of atheists ever, so didn’t know what to expect. No, I am not highly educated but I am educated, I have enough courage to have faced a few serpents in my day and lived to tell it. I have learned only one lesson thus far, on this planet…religious or not. That is to do one’s best to be Kind, positively spirited toward others, and still disagree, it is possible! The old adage You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar, still hold true. Yet, I do see when the time is right, pull out the guns and blast someone. What I have noticed is the blasting is repetitive with regard to being asked to be kind, if I were a scientist pointing out some marvel or correcting, then the chances of humane interaction would be higher.

          • trj

            You fail to realize that not objecting to various religious practices can actually help facilitate some of the unpleasant actions that you mention, such as violence, persecution, racism, and groupthink, all of which are historically closely related to religion.

            And your slippery slope argument needs some work. How exactly does criticizing someone’s religious viewpoints equate to attacking someone because of their skin color? And how does one lead to the other?

            It can also happen this way with races like the blacks. This is the first step it’s tacit agreement, and then humor about the “group” then it escalates 2 more steps, and the last step is violence against and toward an individual or a group of individuals. The violence could be burning crosses on lawns like back in the day…

            Ha ha, yes, that’s just how the KKK started. By someone being disrespectful, then it all escalated from there. You really nailed it.

            • Zen Mermaid

              I am not interested in “winning” as I post comments. Not winning in a secular fashion. So much of what you all say is right, and you win!!! Horray. But what you have not won is my respect in HOW YOU EXPRESS YOURSELVES with respect and kindness toward someone like myself, even if I am a spiritual person, and I actually consider myself not just one, but many spiritual disciplines combined … a Mormon, budhist, catholic, jew. I work professionally as a clairvoyant and therefore what I do in mormonism or any fundamentally strick church is not acceptable, yet I perceive spirit in my own way.

              Yes you have won!!! but my heart is still detached in general. I would love to see debates with regard to any religious or non religious communities operate with peace and kindness. Only until an earthquake hits and you are carrying the child of a mormon in your arms, or a mormon carries yours will you see what I mean…heart to heart.

            • Sunny Day

              But what you have not won is my respect in HOW YOU EXPRESS YOURSELVES with respect and kindness toward someone like myself,

              Oh, Boo Hoo. Here have a good lay down and cry. I cleaned off the fainting couch the best I could. John C’s ichor left some really bad spots and I’m afraid it will never be the same.

              I work professionally as a clairvoyant

              Get the fuck off my couch!

              I would love to see debates with regard to any religious or non religious communities operate with peace and kindness.

              Translation: Uncritical acceptance of whatever fanciful twaddle someone attempts to put forward.

            • Ty

              “I work professionally as a clairvoyant”

              Hahahahahahahahahaahahahaha, . .

              Whew.

              Yeah, no wonder you don’t mind blind belief without evidence. It’s literally your stock-in-trade.

            • trj

              Well, thanks. I didn’t realize we were having a competition, but it’s nice to find out I’ve won. Seems I didn’t win your respect, but I’ll just have to find a way to live with that.

              No idea deserves automatic respect, and some ideas deserve disrespect and ridicule. If that happens to offend the sensibilities of the people promoting those stupid ideas (and it always does), then so be it.

            • Zen Mermaid

              Ty.. btw I am about 98% accurate as a clairvoyant…ewwww … the mysteries of life!!! I get visuals of things that are accurate, words, phrases and so on. I will gladly get off the other commentators couch, being unwelcome. Someone asked me why I expected an atheists blog to be “nice” to a spiritual person. Well I followed a link on facebook that was posting about the bat creek thing, I didn’t know it was an atheist site. I saw comments that were bashing beck and mormonism, which I am not accustomed to seeing, as hostile as I can be toward the mormon church at times, I still respect them on the whole, as much as I want to leave Utah, I still respect them on the whole. I am an older female and suspect that most of the commentators on this blog are younger males, maybe a female here and there, but I would bet my bottom dollar, which I have little of…that most are younger males between the ages of 20 and 45.

            • Ty

              I am still laughing.

              Go take the Amazing Randi’s million dollar challenge, then win, and I will stop laughing at your self delusion.

            • Sunny Day

              Ty.. btw I am about 98% accurate as a clairvoyant…

              Cool!
              Put up or Shut up. Lay out your predictions and what timeframe will it it be necessary for it to be proven true.

              Someone asked me why I expected an atheists blog to be “nice” to a spiritual person. Well I followed a link on facebook that was posting about the bat creek thing, I didn’t know it was an atheist site.

              Well so much for your clairvoyance.

              but I would bet my bottom dollar, which I have little of…that most are younger males between the ages of 20 and 45.

              Too general. How about guessing TY’s age, or Mine?

            • Ty

              Also, why does a psychic have no money?

              If I were able to make clairvoyant predictions with 95% accuracy, i would be a wealthy wealthy man.

            • trj

              Too bad the spirits never reveal next week’s lotto numbers. I bet they’re keeping the money for themselves. Stupid, selfish spirits.

            • Sunny Day

              I predict an excuse will be made.

            • Zen Mermaid

              I don’t play games with a reading, especially knowing you are baiting me. Why don’t you extend you hand in my face and say…what’s my future about? No don’t buy that technique either. You don’t know my life story Ty, and wealth has not been my aim. In the last few years I have been sick, and since you enjoy science as your main form of reality, then appreciate that I have had 2 onsets of diabetes and re-occuring clinical depression. Thus the struggle to recover and survive, and decided to use a talent of mine in order to begin the survival process and start over. Can you relate? Hummm, didn’t think so!

            • Ty

              I am all in favor of using talents and gifts as part of the healing process. I have close friends and family with both diabetes and with depression. I’ve taken a class on cooking for diabetics to help out, and I’ve studied depression as well.

              But while I recognize the seriousness of those problems, it doesn’t change the fact that clairvoyance is baloney.

            • Sunny Day

              I’m all for whatever mental gymnastics you use to get through your day. It’s when you start declaring that they have other, real world, applications is where I have trouble breathing because I’m laughing so much.

            • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

              I predict that you’re 100% full of it.

            • wmdkitty

              “I am about 98% accurate as a clairvoyant”

              Okay, then. How many fingers am I holding up?

          • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

            To quote Ty: Nice straw-man.

            • Zen Mermaid

              If I only had a brain! And then you sing…a heart…for yourself.

            • Zen Mermaid

              Ty…I don’t care if you are laughing and think that I am delusional. I could care less of your opinion of me.

            • Ty

              You’re right. The best way to show you care for people is to coddle their delusions.

              Reality can just suck it, right? All that matters is what people WISH were true. Who are we to tell them it’s not?

            • Ty

              Sure you care.

              The entire reason you’re here is because you care what other people think of your pet delusions.

              And I love how every supposed psychic dodges taking a real scientific test of their abilities by putting their hands over their ears and screaming, “I don’t need to prove anything to you!” at the top of their lungs.

            • Ty

              Also, just as an FYI, the correct term is “couldn’t care less.”

              If you could care less, then that means you do care.

            • Zen Mermaid

              You can test me Ty, all you want as far as my “gifts” are concerned, but you will have to pay. I will gladly put my talents up for view without ever seeing you …. but you have to offer something back. That’s the way it goes. Nor will I lie to you, I will tell you the truth. But as it says in a Few Good Men…you can’t handle the truth. The truth is that science is important, to PROVE things as facts like DNA in a murder case. But so is art, which is more on the unexplainable side. How about the murder which has circumstantial evidence? It would not be wise to convict on that only, yet the murderer might indeed be the one you think did it. Happen to my BF that way, her husband shot her in the mouth … lots of circumstantial evidence but he was a fellow cop. Her fingers were broken (I wonder by who?)…and she hated guns. Statistically most women don’t committ suicide by gun (maybe some but not many), she is not one of them. Women prefer drug overdoses, and poison. Men like to blow things up, back to the testosterone running rampant.

            • Ty

              How does a million dollars sound?

              There is a million dollars in an attorney managed escrow account just waiting for someone, ANYONE, to demonstrate a paranormal activity that tests out better than random chance.

              Here, I will even link to it so you don’t wear yourself out with google: http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

              Not sure what the point of your rambling about murder and art is, but take that challenge and win it. Heck you could win it with just a 60 or 70% success rate, and you claim 98%. Go get ‘em, tiger.

            • UrsaMinor

              You can test me Ty, all you want as far as my “gifts” are concerned

              Is the use of quotation marks a Freudian slip?

            • Zen Mermaid

              Well time to carry on with life! It’s been interesting getting to know the athiests on this blog, well know might not be accurate, but hearing you all out. @Ursa: Not sure what you mean by freudian slip? Do you mean sexual? Sounds very scorpionic! Yikes. lol. @ Ty: so much for a million dollars especially when challenged in such a way, but thanx for the thought. @ Everyone else: some of you have been kind, most of you have not, but that’s the way it goes. Be well to all.

            • Sunny Day

              Multi-Kill!

              Ty is in the lead.

            • Zen Mermaid

              @ Skippy: I predict that you don’t know who I am and never will. Skippy is that like Kip? I like Skipper better. ay, ay … captain, hardy har har … we’ll make the the crap psychic walk the plank, I bet she couldn’t foretell that, ay…hardy har!! I predict that heart problems run in your family…more veggies, fruit and exercise.

            • Ty

              Heart attacks are one of the top killers in America. Way to go out on a limb, there psychic Sue.

              I predict that someone in Skippy’s family needs corrective lenses for sight. I predict that someone in Skippy’s family has male pattern baldness. I predict that someone in Skippy’s family is at least 20 pounds overweight.

              How did I do, Skippy?

            • Ty

              So, you said I’d need to pay you to test your gifts. I linked you to a million dollar challenge that should be a breeze for anyone who claims a 98% accuracy rating. You blow it off because of. . . why, exactly?

              This is a legitimate thing. You can actually win this money. Why are you not taking the challenge?

              Skippy’s theory is looking like the most likely candidate.

            • Zen Mermaid

              Because it’s more than likely bogus, I don’t trust it especially coming from you, who laughed like a hienna at me. Yeah, in your opinion I may believe in stupid things but I’m not STUPID!!!

            • Zen Mermaid

              Oh yeah, and your predictions stink and you’re a fraud! Keep your day job.

              I’m not falling for your scientific without more artistic threading (like life) does predictions. I like believing in the unknown, thing you can’t see, FOR SURE, I enjoy the mysteries in life, not just the certainties. Life is not CERTAIN or Predictable in the way you mean, life is a gamble, a chance you take.

              Yep, and I believe in Gods and Goddesses! ;P

            • Ty

              And now we see the fraud self defense mechanisms come into play.

              “Because it’s more than likely bogus,”

              Nope. It’s a real thing which five minutes of research would have told you.

              “Yeah, in your opinion I may believe in stupid things but I’m not STUPID!!!”

              You can say this, but the fact that you didn’t do enough research to realize that the million dollar award is legitimate doesn’t speak well for you.

              “Oh yeah, and your predictions stink and you’re a fraud! Keep your day job. ”

              Projection is another fraud self defense mechanism. I pointed out the ridiculousness of your ‘prediction’ by making statistically probable predictions of my own. I don’t claim to have psychic powers, just a fair knowledge of probability.

              “I like believing in the unknown,”

              Fine, but that’s irrational. Curiosity about the unknown is entirely rational, and shared by all scientists. What you are doing is not that. Your flailing attempts to shift the focus away from your ludicrous claims and onto someone, ANYTHING else, is just sad.

              The real world is fascinating. You should check it out sometime.

            • UrsaMinor

              You may not be stupid, but you are lazy. The challenge is 100% legitimate.

            • Nzo

              You expect us to take what you say at face value, then decided that you don’t believe a well-documented, fully-funded challenge to your super powers would actually net you a cool million? You’re not even being halfway respectful of the people you’re attempting to convince.

              The greatest thing about the challenge isn’t even the million dollar prize – you could make that in a month using your powers, if they’re proved to be true through that.

              Basically, if you don’t take the challenge and show that your powers are real, you’re just another nutjob claiming to have super powers on the internet, where everyone is a pr0n or rap star genius with the ability to talk to god directly.

            • Yoav

              The Randi challenge is fcuking famous, search for it on your own if you don’t trust Ty, but then as a psychic you should be able to know whether he’s lying or not. If I had magic powers I would jump on the opportunity to not just win a million bucks but to make James Randi, a person who made life hard for so called psychic for decades, look all foolish. I guess your reluctance is more about you being the standard fraud who depends on vague generalization and cold reading to get the success rate up.

            • Sunny Day

              Aww I missed the death spiral of the “I have magic powers!” nutjob.

      • Templar of the West

        Oh dear all these rows over a language you do not see….this is written in the language of the Khymru….it says…Madoc the ruler he is….

  • Pingback: Bend It Like Glenn Beck | VoVatia

  • Leslie Carol Kalen

    I am the one who is an Member of The Easter Band Of Cherokees and hired Scott Wolter (kensington rune stone) to test the Bat Creek Stone after a year of extensive testing at UT
    where it is displayed the results show the Bat Creek Stone is Authentic.. We are Carbon-dating
    the relics at the Smithsonian as well. This will be made public soon.

    • Francesc

      What do you mean by authentic? And how are you doing carbon-dating upon a stone?

      • Leslie Rose Kalen

        The Carbon Dating is being done on the wood fragments found in Mound #3 with the
        Bat Creek Stone. This is going to be done at The Smithsonian soon.

        • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

          How, exactly, does the date of the wood (the authenticity of which has never been questioned) influence the likelihood of the stone being a fake that was planted? These are seperate issues.

          My point is, there are extremely good reasons to think that the stone is fake and was planted – the age of the wood is completely irrelevant to that question.

          • Leslie Rose Kalen

            Understand the carbon dating of the wood shows when the stone was placed in the burial. The wood fragments were rolled up with relics inside with the remains found
            with the stone Same burial chamber

            • Leslie Rose Kalen

              Which could prove what time the Stone was placed in the mound

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              No, I’m sorry but it wouldn’t. That is provisional on the honesty of the discoverer and the site-workers; since the text is yet to be satisfactorily identified anyway, even that speculation is meaningless.

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      Wow, that’s a spectacular lack of knowledge about radio-isotope dating you’re displaying there! You wouldn’t be… Lying, would you? What would Jesus say?

      • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

        Oh, Custador. Jesus wouldn’t say anything. He’s dead. ;-)

        • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

          Well, if one believes the stories one has read concerning such things, I think Jesus would most likely say “Brrrraaaaaaaiiiiiinnnnsssss….”, while shuffling around in torn clothing with his arms held out in front of him. That’s what zombies do, right?

          • Leslie Rose Kalen

            We just completed a report that was presented to UT Jeff Chapman, Museum of Cherokee Museum and Tribal members on the Bat Creek Site field work and the
            test show the stone came from the Bat Creek Area.. The Stone is Authentic The
            inscription is still up for debate The Tribe will have their own professional look at the inscription as well.

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              Tell me, has anybody used microscopy to examine the “script” and determine what tools were used to cut it? That would be very interesting.

            • Leslie Rose Kalen

              Yes we have with the very best. I need to post a copy of the report that will
              answer your questions I am sure. It was published in Ancient America
              Magazine several months ago. We have no connection to the Magazine

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              Well, that’s a good start; Now, has anybody identified the “script” used on the stone? From what I’m reading, nobody really knows what it is. Are you drawing inferences that it is evidence of Jewish travellers to North America?

          • Len

            Zombies can run, these days.

    • vorjack

      Scott Wolter? Scott f@#ing Wolter?

      The same Scott Wolter who believes that the Kensington Rune Stone proves that Minnesota was once owned by Vikings who happened to also be Knights Templar?

      Oh dear sweet FSM …

      • Leslie Rose Kalen

        Yes you are correct Scott Wolters of American Petrograph who has done research
        on The Pentagon after 911. He has more history due to his different areas of research
        you may find exceptable.?

        • vorjack

          … who has done research on The Pentagon after 911

          How does this relate to his ability to date inscriptions?

          He has more history due to his different areas of research

          What are his qualifications? Where did he get his degree – he does have a relevant degree, doesn’t he?

          What peer-reviewed journals has he published in? And not “alternative” rags with an established editorial agenda like Ancient America Magazine, but non-biased, respected journals.

          I’m sorry, but from everything I’ve seen, Wolters looks like a complete crank.

          • Scott Wolter

            vorjack,

            First of all, have you read any of my papers or books on the Kensington Rune Stone, or my report on the Bat Creek Stone? I think some people get confused about when I’m talking about hard scientific fact and speculation.

            The facts in geology, language, runes, dialect, grammar and the dating are consistent with the KRS being a genuine medieval aritfact. Further, the three Dotted R runes are the conclusive “silver bullet” that is undisputable.

            I know many long-time skeptics will be greatly disappointed, but the scholars simply didn’t have the necessary data available until recently. Sadly, they were also too arrogant to admit that they simply didn’t know.

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              Ahem…

              “Almost all Runologists and experts in Scandinavian linguistics consider the runestone to be a hoax.”

              “The runestone has been analyzed and dismissed repeatedly without local effect.”

              “Flom found a strong apparent divergence between the runes used in the Kensington inscription and those in use during the 14th century. Similarly, the language of the inscription was modern compared to the Nordic languages of the 14th century”

              “The language of the inscription bears much closer resemblance to 19th century than 14th century Swedish.”

              “the root word opdage must have been a borrowed Germanic term (i.e. from Low German, Dutch or High German). Also, the -else ending characterizes a class of words that the Scandinavians borrowed from their southern neighbors.
              However, before the Scandinavians could have borrowed the term from the Germanic languages, the Germanic peoples had to have first borrowed it from the French language, which did not happen before the 16th century.”

              “Old Norse had the four cases of modern German. They had disappeared from common speech by the 16th century but were still predominant in the 14th century (see Swedish language). Also, the text does not use the plural verb forms that were common in the 14th century and have only recently disappeared: for example, (plural forms in parenthesis) “wi war” (wörum), “hathe” (höfuðum), “[wi] fiske” (fiskaðum), “kom” (komum), “fann” (funnum) and “wi hathe” (hafdum). Proponents of the stone’s authenticity point to sporadic examples of these simpler forms in some 14th century texts and to the great changes of the morphological system of the Scandinavian languages that began during the latter part of that century.”

              And then there’s you. An unqualified kook who thinks that the Kensington Runestone was carved by the Knights Templar in a period when the Knights Templar didn’t even exist anymore. I hate to break this to you, but when an unqualified kook advances theories which he has apparently just pulled from his arse and a whole bunch of extremely qualified people disagree – it is not the bunch of extremely qualified people who are being arrogant, it is the unqualified kook.

            • Francesc

              You are being close-minded and, what is worst, rational!
              It is clear that Scott knows the TRUTH and has to defend it from the stablishment wich doesn’t want us to know that knight templars are still among us, always conspiring. The same with the Bat Creek Stone where everybody failed again but not Scott.

              Seriously, what are the odds that everything that Scott touches is revolutionary?

            • Scott Wolter

              Do you always resort to name-calling when you have nothing but out-dated information to fall back on? Come on man, get current and refer to the latest data.

              The subject matter of all your quotes have been found to be erroneous and you also completely ignored the Dotted R. You also made no mentoin about the word “har.” The first word on the split side was long thought to be a modern Swedish word and used by Scandinavian scholars as the chief piece of linguistic evidence against the stone. In 2002, I found two dots above the “a” rune which instantly changed it to an old Swedish word. Opps, they messed that one up didn’t they?

              Incidentally, not everything I’ve examined turns out to be, what was your word, “revolutionary.” I wish that were the case. Late last year, I examined a white marble Burrows Cave artifact and found it to be a recycled modern tombstone. Further, several artifacts and inscriptioins I’ve examined I concluded were inconclusive for various reasons.

              BTW, when appropriate, it’s OK to say, “I don’t know.” If more of the linguist and archaeologists who looked at the KRS in the past had been honest and said those words, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

              Mmmm, the Knights Templar didn’t exist anymore, well they “officially” didn’t exist anymore, most certainly in the minds of Roman Church. However, as I’m sure you must know, you can kill people, but you can’t kill an ideology or belief system. Make no mistake, the ideology of the leadership of the KnightsTemplar/Cistercian orders contiuned on. Are you really going to fall back on that silly argument that the Templars didn’t exist? Really…?

              You guys apparently see the world through a bias lens just like the academics of the past you’ve cited. It’s a new world out there gang, and it’s time you joined that world.

              Is dripping sarcasm the standard protocol here, or are you people sometimes actually serious?

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              Alrighty smart arse, where’s your EVIDENCE that the runestone had anything whatsoever to do with the Knights Templar?

              If you follow the link I posted, you’ll find citations for all of those quotes – and you’ve just dismissed them as wrong with nothing more than an appeal to your own authority. Here’s a hint: YOU DON’T HAVE ANY.

            • Francesc

              It’s my standard protocol with unsupported claims, we are not a hive mind so others may follow different protocols on their own.

              “and you also completely ignored the Dotted R”
              So? One letter is similar? No one but a real viking templar could use that R? It doesn’t seems very convincing.

              Two dots above an “a” rune changed the word. I would be very ashamed to not having tought of this if I were an expert linguist, even if they weren’t visible. Luckily you “found” those dots. Have I to believe this extragavant explanation because you said so?

              Glad that you don’t think any artifact is legitim, as lots of cooks out there. Point for you.

              So far, I think those linguists were honest, and you are not. But I’m not an expert, you don’t have to convince me. Try showing the evidences to the experts before, and not discussing those themes publishing in dubious “rags”. Real scientists and scholars usually don’t need the fame you same to be trying to achieve.

              Finally, have you tried to compare the script with the summerian writing? Or are you falling in the silly argument that summerian civilization disappeared long time before?

  • Leslie Rose Kalen

    The Cherokees and I have no connection to the Mormons or claim to ever have.

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      You just suddenly jumped infinitely in the credibility stakes :p I hope I’m not coming off as confrontational here, but a lot of people are going to draw conclusions about this little bit of stone, so it does interest me. Actually, the Mormons will draw their own conclusions anyway and call anything that disagrees a lie, so you know… I’m glad for the rest of us that this seems to be in good hands. I wish you luck, and will leave you in peace as it’s 01:20 in the morning where I am. Good night.

      • Leslie Rose Kalen

        Agreed. Nite here too. Thanks for the intersting debate I enjoyed the comments.

  • Leslie Rose Kalen

    I really dont think we are the Lost Tribe if thats what you mean. I feel it was used in ceremony
    with a part of our Pre-Columbian History inscribed on it.

    • Francesc

      “feel” may not be the correct word.
      Anyway, as custador said, if you are dating the wood and not the stone, and even if it can be proved that the stone was coherent with cherokee’s usual crafts, it wouldn’t be clear if the “script” was made 2000 years ago or just 200 years. This discovery already had some credibility issues and calling Wolters to do research may not help.

  • Scott Wolter

    Custador,

    Hey, I’m just trying to fit in. Seriously, yours are legitmate citations that just happen to be wrong. So many times academics claimed things didn’t exist, when in fact they did. They simply hadn’t been found yet. There are two problems with this kind of logic. First, you can’t use a negative to prove anything. Second, when they found specific features did exist, where is the retraction? There was only silence hoping nobody would speak up.

    My relative age geological weathering studies showed the inscription is at least 200 years old from the date it was pulled from the ground. My work independently confirmed the 1909 weathering studies of our first State Geologist in Minnesota, Newton H. Winchell. The geology has proven that the KRS is not a modern hoax, but it is the language and runic features (to say nothing of the dating) that puts the inscription in its proper place in time.

    The medieval runic was not well understood back in 1898, and to this day much is still being learned. The Dotted R and “har” are the two most important pieces of evidence that proves this very point.

    As far as the Templars go, you first have to realize its simply a label I use for a group of people who were trying to re-establish an ancient religious belief system the Roman Church suppressed (and hijacked many parts of) in the first century. The “Templars” used elements of Church doctrine to undermine the institution, along with the whole fuedalistic system of Europe at that time, and almost succeeded. The question is, what happened to them after the suppression?

    My speculation is they came to North America. The KRS one piece of evidence that is consistent with this theory. I suggest you read my latest book, “The Hooked X: Key to the Secret History of North America, to get a better idea of what I’m talking about.

    To be quite frank, I gave up on the academics years ago because they refused to look at anything that doesn’t fit their train of though. Call it laziness, arrogance, turf-protecting, fear to challange the established paradigm, whatever. Call it anything you want, but it certainly isn’t science.

    I am a licensed professional geologist who ultimately must answer to a State Board who can take my license away if I’m found to have done anything professionally or ethically improper. I don’t just throw things out randomly. I take my work very seriously and make every attempt to adhere to those standards. Are academics held to a similar standard or run the risk of having their livelihood taken away if they act in a unethical or unprofessional manner?

    I’ve decided to go to the masses in the hope that if enough people understand, and then demand that the scholars straighten up and fly right, maybe we’ll get to the bottom of this mystery. When you strip away all the B.S. and get down to the real facts, the answer to the KRS question is obvious. At that point the quesion becomes: “What else were they wrong about?”

    How’s that?

    • http://lydiafromtexas.wordpress.com/ LRA

      “I’ve decided to go to the masses in the hope that if enough people understand, and then demand that the scholars straighten up and fly right”

      LOLWHUT???

      Since when are ill-educated people capable of successfully engaging the experts in *any* field?

      You sound like Don McElroy, who said “someone’s gotta stand up to the experts!” concerning the evolution/creationism foolishness going on here in Texas.

      Right. Appeal to the masses. That’s just brilliant. Not.

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      So you’re saying you found 200 years of weathering on the inscriptions – which would date them c. 1700. The Knights Templar ceased to exist sometime in the 1300s. Even if I accept your evidence (and given your total lack of credibility thanks to your bizarre assertions about Knights Templar, I don’t), all that proves is that the runestone isn’t a modern hoax; it doesn’t actually advance the argument about what the stone is at all.

      You’ve totally skipped my request for evidence supporting your theory about the Knights Templar, which leads me to stick to my original assertion: You pulled it out your arse.

      I think you and Erik Von Daniken should correspond, you’d get on well.

      • Scott Wolter

        You’re back to insults and sarcasm; why don’t you read the Hooked X and then we’ll talk about Templars.

        You’re right about the circa 1700 time frame, but my tombstone study concluded the weathering was “older” than 200 years. It’s the inscription that put it to 1362. What plausible scenario would put the inscription anywhere else? It’s either 1362 or circa 1900. The geology and the dotted R make 1900 impossible, so what’s the only logical alternative.

        In spite of your indignance LRA, the ‘going to the masses’ thing is working out pretty well up to now. Especially when some of those masses contribute money to the institutions with professors saying the stupid things like our State Archaeologist in Minnesota. When I invited Scott Anfinson to attend one of my lectures at the Univiersity to hear the latest data, he replied, “I don’t find the KRS to be scientifically interesting.” I found that comment rather interesting coming from a person educated in a discipline that doesn’t receive formal training in the scientific method.

        How do I know that’s true? Just look at their (linguists, historians and runologists too) past investigations into the rune stone. The whole problem boiled down to improper method from the very start. Remember gang, I’ve operated a forensic materials laboratory for 25 years. It’s what I do all day, every day, and I know botched forensic methodology when I see it. For some examples, you might want to read the chapter in my KRS book, “Scandals in Scholarship.”

        Who’s next?

        • http://lydiafromtexas.wordpress.com/ LRA

          Let me repeat my question:

          Since when are ill-educated people capable of successfully engaging the experts in *any* field?

          These sorts of disagreements are best sorted out among the EXPERTS in peer-reviewed, scholarly journals.

          But you are right, going to the masses is good for money. So, now we know what you are after.

          • Scott Wolter

            Nice try LRA, this is what people say to me when they have nothing reasonable left to argue. Go back and read my previous post. We’re talking about a fundamental difference in the way opinion-driven disciplines do their work and the way hard scientists do their work.

            • http://lydiafromtexas.wordpress.com/ LRA

              Excuse me? You’re advocating the position that people who don’t know *anything* about the fields in which you participate are superior in judging capabilities as to the appropriateness of your claims to those who are actually members of the field (whether in the humanities or the sciences)?

              And you think this is “reasonable” and I’m “unreasonable”?

              LOL!!!!!! Wow.

            • Sunny Day

              Don’t forget they have to be ignorant AND willing to plonk down the money for his book before they are good judges of whats reasonable.

            • claidheamh mor

              Nice try, Scott Wolter. You haven’t answered the question. Here it is a third time:

              Since when are ill-educated people capable of successfully engaging the experts in *any* field?

        • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

          Learn to accept that nobody here is going to buy your book.

          “It’s either 1362 or circa 1900″

          Straw-man, false dichotomy, call it what you will – but that statement is bullshit and your own evidence disagrees with it.

          You’re still refusing to provide any evidence for your assertions about the Knights Templar despite repeated requests; do you have any or not? If you do, what is it?

          And Scott, if I start with insults and sarcasm, you’ll know it. My last post stated the facts as they are on display and the logical conclusions that I drew from them; the fact that you find an argument from somebody with a decent analytical mind to be insulting just further reduces your credibility. Well, it would, but it hit zero some time ago anyway.

    • Francesc

      “Second, when they found specific features did exist, where is the retraction?”

      Science changes everytime we learn something new. We still are not sure about the colonization of america by the first humans. Some southern locations predate those of the north. Did we came to america through Bering (as it seems) or through pacific islands? Only once, or more times? There are real scientists trying to solve this question.

      Till recent genetical studies we didn’t know that our sapiens ancestors mated neardenthals after going out of Africa. Sapiens in Asia seem to have mated a third human species recently found. A tooth was found in Israel and there are archaelogists trying to duplicate the age of our species, altought the easiest explanation is that it is not a sapiens tooth. Which is our relationship with H. floresiensis? There are some -few- biologists defending that our species evolved in an aquatic environment and not in the plains.

      All those questions aren’t answered yet and can be discussed because the data we have today fits -more or less- different options. New data, evidences, means that an answer is more probable than others.

      On the contrary, you feel you are being prosecuted and ignored by the “scientific stablishment”. I would say that you don’t have any evidence to support your claims.

      • Francesc

        sorry, “a tooth was found in Israel and there are PALEONTOLOGISTS trying to duplicate the age of our species”

      • Scott Wolter

        Francesc,

        I don’t mind people taking shots at me, I’m a big boy; and I don’t mind people having an opinion. However, an opinion is pretty much worthless unless there is evidence to support it.

        For the record, several geologists who have reviewed my work on the KRS have no problem with my conclusions. There have certainly been a few questions and suggestions, but to be quite frank, the pyrite and mica studies I performed were pretty simple and straightforward. Even though, to my knowledge, no one had done anything like the tombstone study I performed before, it wasn’t very complex at all.

        I personally think using the term “scientific” when referencing the investigative processes used by linguists, archaeologists, runologists, historians, etc., is not appropriate. I know many will take offense, but until I see them use proper methology, I stand by my statement.

        No offense intended.

        • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

          “However, an opinion is pretty much worthless unless there is evidence to support it.”

          Irony: You’re missing it.

          • claidheamh mor

            The irony, it burrrnnnnssss!

        • http://lydiafromtexas.wordpress.com/ LRA

          “I personally think using the term “scientific” when referencing the investigative processes used by linguists, archaeologists, runologists, historians, etc., is not appropriate. I know many will take offense, but until I see them use proper methology, I stand by my statement.”

          “I’ve decided to go to the masses in the hope that if enough people understand, and then demand that the scholars straighten up and fly right”

          So you think that (1) you are qualified to criticize whole fields of scholarly endeavor, that (2) it is appropriate to levy this criticism in a public forum rather than a scholarly forum, and that (3) the masses can also properly criticize the scholars, especially if informed by the arguments in your book?

          And you don’t see what’s wrong with this picture?

  • Scott Wolter

    Custador,

    Apparently, I am getting under your skin since you feel the need to prove to everyone how tough you are behind a keyboard…? Your mind is already made up so it is useless to try and have an intelligent discussion. If you don’t have the time, inclination, or money to read the latest data (and my speculation), that’s fine. Let’s just agree to disagree and move on with our lives!

    • Sunny Day

      Willful stupidity gets under everyone’s skin.
      New Kook Definition – Tough Guy: Someone who uses logic and reason and asks for evidence.
      Standard Kook Definition – Agreeing to Disagree: A way to elevate unproven bullshit to stratospheric heights.
      Standard Kook Definition – Latest Data: Buy mah book! It’s got pictures and stories!

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      So, having had your arse publically handed to you you’re now going to strop off claiming victory and calling me a netwarrior? More bullshit, what a shock.

      I’ll try again:

      What is your basis for claiming that the Knights Templar created the runestone? What is your evidence? These are simple questions which you have avoided again and again – Answer them or go away.

  • Scott Wolter

    LRA,

    So, what is your vocation if I might ask? Your mind also appears to be as firmly entrenched as Custadors. Niether of you respect the geological findings of either me or Winchell, so what’s the point of arguing?

    To be honest, it’s probably too late to read the Hooked X because my new book will be ready soon. The thesis hasn’t changed, it’s expanded.

    I’m sure you’ll all have fun when it comes out!

    • http://lydiafromtexas.wordpress.com/ LRA

      I was a special education teacher, then I was a neuroscientist, and now I am looking to pursue a PhD in philosophy of science. I did my graduate work in molecular bio/neuroscience in Eric Kandel’s lab at Columbia.

      And, btw, it doesn’t matter what *I* think about your thesis… I’m not a geologist. That’s the whole point. I take umbrage with your statement:

      “I’ve decided to go to the masses in the hope that if enough people understand, and then demand that the scholars straighten up and fly right”

      The masses aren’t QUALIFIED to tell scholars anything.

    • Nox

      (A) If your book actually does contain arguments that prove the date of the inscription is what you say it is, you should be able to reproduce those arguments here. Just telling people to buy your book is transparent as both a bad dodge and a shameless plug. If you presented your evidence here and gained some credibility, more people would be interested in reading the whole thing and you would be more successful in your overall goal of moving units.

      (B) Words mean things. For example “Templars” means “the poor knights of the temple of Solomon”, a religious order founded after the First Crusade. I’m pretty sure the word you are looking for is “Protestants”.

      (C) LRA covered this, but if you are openly saying that your theory only makes sense to people who don’t have all the relevant information, then what does this say about the theory?

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      If you think anybody here is buying your book you really are kidding yourself.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=821044294 Jason Johnson

      i know this is an old thread but I’ve been contacted by Ms Kalen regarding my writings. i know it was the Templars as well and furthermore i know what cargo they brought with them to escape rome’s persecution! ;)

  • Scott Wolter

    Boy, it sure is easy to get you guys fired up.

    Look at what’s happening in Egypt right now. I realize it’s not the same situation, but let me give you an example of what I’m talking about. Sunday I was in Florida and examined a rune stone no one has ever seen that was found in North Carolina in 1969. The woman was 11 years old at the time and over the last 40 years has reached out to various academic institutions, including the Smithsonian Institute, who only wanted to fly she and her mother up so they could donate it (they promised her a plaque, whoopie! Why did they want it anyway??). Not one of these institutions would take her find seriously. She became disgusted, threw it in the drawer and forgot about it until she saw our film.

    We spent 5 hours examining her stone, recording an interview of her story and took a small sample off the back side for testing. I can tell you that I haven’t seen a red flag yet, and yes, I’m being skeptical as I go.

    Personally, it looks fantastic; professionally, I have no opinion yet.

    The way this woman was treated is a travesty; the very people that the public should be able to trust, failed her. How else are we going to get this to change?

    The current system doesn’t work as good as it could. If enough people become aware of the problem…

    You get it.

    • http://lydiafromtexas.wordpress.com/ LRA

      “Boy, it sure is easy to get you guys fired up.”

      Yeah, we don’t really like snake oil salesmen.

  • Scott Wolter

    LRA,

    You’re funny man; I don’t like snake oil salesmen, or saleswomen, either! You’ll be happy to know I don’t play that way.

    Protestants doesn’t go far enough, these people embraced a form of montheistic dualism that goes back to the heretic pharaoh Akhenaten. That thread has would through time and is still around today. It went underground and tried to resurface after the Roman Messiah didn’t return in 1000 A.D., but was pushed back underground in 1307. That thread came over here and rose up again as the “Great Experiment.”

    You guys know the story…

    I suppose you people think the Newport Tower was a windmill…?

    • Sunny Day

      You’re funny man

      So your defense is you are stupid and blind. I guess you think when the templars stopped using the name you were free to attribute it to any old group that suited your fancy.

      • Scott Wolter

        Sunny Day,

        Your mind is completely closed. I thought there was no name-calling here?

        You’re obviously curious, so read up and come back better prepared.

        • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

          I think Sunny has made it abundantly clear that he doesn’t care for your crackpot theories. You fail at reading for perception. This does not shock me.

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      Erik Von Daniken. You are he, he is you.

  • Scott Wolter

    Custador,

    Apparently, you are hurting for money, why don’t I just give you a book? Would you read it?

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      Scott, if I really wanted your book I’d buy it. I’ve already read Gold of The Gods and Chariots of The Gods – I don’t need to read any more kooky crap, thanks.

      Meantime, ANSWER THE QUESTIONS:

      What is your basis for claiming that the Knights Templar created the runestone? I’m not going to stop asking just because you dodge the issue.

  • Scott Wolter

    OK fine; that’s for the banter guys. This was fun!

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      What is your basis for claiming that the Knights Templar created the runestone?

      • Leslie Rose Kalen

        After reading the comments I get the sense you think every stone Mr. Wolters looks at is real. This is how we came to know Mr. Wolters three years ago before the films, we had no
        knowledge of the KRS. We had uncovered a cave that contained over 300 signatures and drawings. In the lower chamber of the cave we discovered what we thought were Saxon
        alphabet. We contacted Cambridge and other Universities for someone to take a professional look at it. Mr. Wolters was the professional that came highly recommened to take a look at the insciption. Within several minutes after looking at the inscription on the cave wall, he said without a doubt it was a fraud. Only 2 stones that we know of that Scott
        claims are geniune..you dont consider the hundreds that he has examined.

        • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

          “Within several minutes after looking at the inscription on the cave wall, he said without a doubt it was a fraud”

          He made that proclamation in minutes, without any tests or checks, on nothing more than his own opinion, and that inspires confidence?! I’m sorry, but it has the opposite effect on me. His disagreement with the entire scholarly community over the Kensington Runestone gives me enough cause for concern as it is, but his attribution of it to a defunct religious order ala Dan Brown is the nail in the coffin. He has been asked here again and again and again what his basis for that assertion is, and he will not answer. That tells me that he knows that he is being intellectualy dishonest and that he also knows that it will not fly here. There are readers of this blog with sufficient knowledge and intelligence to bury him for it, in public, and he won’t risk that. Ask yourself who you have employed.

          • Francesc

            To be fair, if the fraud is obvious an expert may not need more than a glimpse. On the other hand a good commercial has to inspire confidence and what better way to do it than, between hundreds of possible artifacts, picking one of them.

            Notice that he picked some so he still would be hired, when other researchers could have imagined that every artifact was a forgery after seeing that lots of them where forgeries. Picking that one wich seemed more plausible he can construct kinda of a case, and he will forget to add that this one artifact was found surrounded by frauds.

            I don’t now if he is a cook, but at least he is an intelligent cook.

          • Leslie Kalen

            Actually it was the head of UT that discounted it in seconds…at least Scott explained how he came to the conclusion it was Fraud. Several different Professors
            came out to examine the inscription.

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              So wait… Now academia do come when called? Only Scott was complaining that they don’t. Hmmm.

    • Sunny Day

      Thanks for showing up Scott. Its very telling when pressed for information all you can do is shout, “Buy my book!”

      Maybe you’d have better luck selling T-Shirts.

  • Lynn Brant

    >Since when are ill-educated people capable of successfully engaging the experts in *any* field?<

    You mean like the field of computer science and a college freshman dropout named Bill Gates?

    In my long experience, I've found that those who scurry for the cover of experts are seldom those who make contributions to the body of knowledge, in "any" field. Expertise is inherently "so yesterday."

    • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

      Bill Gates never designed or made any of his own systems – he bought or stole them from others. He’s a good businessman – his products are shite. You might like to find a better example.

      • Moonrock

        I also thought the comment about experts was stupid and the example of Gates nails it. I’ve never been on this site before, but what I’m seeing in this thread is a lot of pedantry from people who can’t quite pull it off. Just an observation.

        Note from Custador: Did you seriously think I wouldn’t spot such obvious sock-puppetry, Lynn Brant? Do that again and I’ll delete your post. Consider yourself fairly warned.

        • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

          Notwithstanding the debate about censorhip on the forum right now…

          • Lynn Brant

            You’ve been owned.

            • Elemenope

              Your IP address (208.78.201.195) being the same as Moonrock’s is kind of a dead giveaway. Normally I’m pretty laid back for a moderator, but one thing that is not tolerated is sock-puppetry. I have no dog in this fight/argument/whatever, but sock-puppet argumentation is lame enough for me to pull out the banhammer. Don’t make yourself the first I have to ban. Use one nick, stick with it, and let your arguments stand and fall on their own.

            • Lynn Brant

              If custador hadn’t deleted the post you would see that Moonrock and I were together and posting from the same computer, which as far as I can see, violates no rule. Please do ban me, you tools have nothing here. No wonder none of us have ever heard of this site.

            • Elemenope

              Uh, being a moderator I can see the deletion/editing history, and I have no idea what you’re talking about.

              Anyway, honestly, there is no way to check your claim that the two nicks represent two people posting that happen to be using the same computer, but when one nick shows up merely to cheerlead the other (as occurred here), it sorely tests the presumption of difference.

              And, for what it’s worth, if your expressed scorn for this site and its denizens is actually genuine, I can’t see why you’d stay even absent a thwack from the banhammer. If you are in fact very superior to us tools, kindly saunter snootily along, if you would.

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              Have a look in the spam pile right now, it’s a hoot….

            • Len

              Let us see too.

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              I’ll add a capture to my last post about the spam filter in a minute.

            • Elemenope

              Favorite from the filter: “IS YOUR GRAMMER PREFECT I DONT WANT THE SAME GRAMMER AS BABYKILLERS”

              ROFL!

            • http://theskippyreview.wordpress.com Skippy

              What does Kelsey Grammer have to do with any of this? /sarcasm

            • Francesc

              Favorite from the filter: “IS YOUR GRAMMER PREFECT I DONT WANT THE SAME GRAMMER AS BABYKILLERS”

              I knew grammar was devil’s work! It makes you eat babies!

            • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

              Spelling and syntax, too.

    • Siberia

      Bill Gates is a businessman. If you think he’s a programmer in his company, you’re sorely mistaken. He uses experts to do his thing, trust me on this.

      In any case, computer programming is something that can be learned (and yes, you can earn expertise in it) by experience and practice. It doesn’t require a degree. In fact, having a degree is no impediment for expertise; it’s just experts usually do have degrees because they care to learn more. If you think the knowledge Bill Gates (or someone who actually does code) is equal to that of the masses you’re very sorely mistaken.

    • Kodie

      In my long experience, I’ve found that those who scurry for the cover of experts are seldom those who make contributions to the body of knowledge, in “any” field. Expertise is inherently “so yesterday.”

      So you want us to value your “long experience” with people who don’t know what they’re talking about… do you even know what the word ‘inherently’ means? Know-nothings who mouth off about knowing nothing and not trusting anyone who does, in my long experience, have little to contribute and make no sense that they have to create a pretend other person who falls over themselves to agree with them – spontaneously.

      • http://lydiafromtexas.wordpress.com/ LRA

        WIN!

  • claidheamh mor

    Scott Wolter has apparently left the building. Without answering any of the questions.

    • UrsaMinor

      Damn. I was really looking forward to hearing the explanation about the Knights Templar connection.

      • Francesc

        They are trendy. They help selling books :p

        • http://ohmatron.wordpress.com/ Custador

          Hope versus expectation, my friend…

        • Jason Johnson

          ^^^ I sure hope so! I’ve got a doozy!!!^^^

      • Jason Johnson

        ok, buddy, here ya go….
        PRELUDE

        As he placed the infant girl into the old man’s weathered hands, he experienced the first sense of peace since his fleet had set sail from Europe with prices on all their heads. The fleet had reached its destination, such a fleet as it was at that point: two storm battered ships made landfall of the thirteen that had originally set sail on that fateful day. The passengers that survived the journey were no better for having done so. The ones that hadn’t succumbed to the tuberculosis and scurvy did well to avoid starvation or the outright insanity that had caused them to have to throw more than one of their brother knights overboard lest he jeopardize their Holy Mission. That mission could not be allowed to fail at any cost; too many lives had already been lost before they ever set sail for any of them to entertain the thought of giving up. There was nothing for them to return to at any rate. Their estates seized, their families imprisoned or slaughtered outright, their former lives no longer existed.

        The child looked up into the old man’s face from the blood spattered Templar cross bearing tunic they had wrapped her in. The two old souls smiled at each other and the convent was sealed. His people would raise the child, as it was clear the ones who brought her were soon to meet their ends. How the child had escaped their fate was a mystery that the shaman took as a good omen, despite the fate of her bearers.

        His fellow elders were not so enthused about his decision. They were all too aware of the prophecies concerning the men from across the sea and the destruction those men would bring to their people. The shaman could feel nothing but good in the child so he stood firm on his decision, thinking perhaps this kindness could somehow cancel out the dire predictions of so long ago. Her bearers clearly presented no threat as they were at death’s doorstep on arrival and intent on leaving as soon as they were assured that their cargo was secure, as their presence would alert their pursuers to the child’s existence which would spell her certain death. They had burned the rat-infested ships after making camp to remove the beacon of their presence from the eyes of the ships they were certain were in hot pursuit.

        After trading copious amounts of gold with the natives for as much provisions as they could carry, they set out into the wilderness to claim land for God and Country, which they managed to accomplish surprisingly enough, as evidenced by the engravings they left on the stone they buried beneath a sapling before death took them. This stone would be discovered by a farmer many many years later and is now known as the Kensington Rune stone.

        The white men had called the child Margaret and somehow conveyed that the child was the descendant of the Great Spirit Himself. The old shaman found this amusing, as it was common knowledge that no human body could contain the vastness of the Great Spirit, but he listened patiently to their tales, doing his best not to laugh. He didn’t understand most of what they were trying to convey and didn’t believe the part he understood.

        When the white men had taken their leave of his village, the shaman and his wife were left to care for the child as no younger couple would accept her, knowing as they all did of the prophecies. The name Margaret was foreign to them and didn’t fit her in their estimation, so they named her Fawn because of her doe-like eyes and timid nature.

        It wasn’t long before her presence made itself felt in the village. The rains came to the crops just when needed. Previously warring tribes now came to pay tribute and seek peace. The buffalo seemed to lie at their feet in supplication. If this was the “curse” they all feared, then the old man wished he’d only cursed them sooner.

        In time, the child became woman and she married the shaman’s grandson and they had children. The tribe’s prosperity continued and increased under the blessing of her presence, so the dire curses so long-predicted were relegated to the status of silly myth and given no more credence among the shaman’s people.

        Thus the Holy Grail came to the New World and the Deer Clan was established.

        Her tribe would have done well to remember the dire predictions, for in time the ships of the Templars’ pursuers would once again approach their fair shores, bearing the same giant red-crossed sails aboard La Nina, La Pinta y La Santa Maria….

        Excerpted from Curse of the Deer Clan.All rights reserved by the author, Jason Johnson Aug. 2, 2011

  • Rachel

    I just read a great book about the Bat Creek Stone. It’s “Bat Creek Stone: At a Glance” by Mandel Cook. It includes the latest examination of the stone and all types of cool point of views.

  • Steinar Skailand

    The enigma of the “Bat creek stone inscription ” has been solved by the eminent Norwegian Dr. Philos. Kjell Aartun.
    You will find the explanation in the book “Studien zur ugaritischen Lexikographie”,
    printed by the German publisher “Harrassowitz Verlag” in 2006. (ISBN3-447- 05326-7, ab 1.1.2007 978-3-447-05326-6)
    The text is in 4 languages (minoan Hieroglyphs, minoan Linear A, Atruscan and 2 (merely 2)
    Runes.
    The Engraving is approx. 3800 years old.

    • UrsaMinor

      A remarkable amount of linguistic diversity for an inscription that has only 8 characters in toto, no? With four languages claimed to be represented, that’s an average of only two characters per script.

      Sorry, I don’t buy it. There are only just so many distinct symbols you can make with two to four lines/curves per symbol. If you take a bunch of such letter-like symbols and search through enough scripts, you will find something that matches them somewhere.

      While Cretan hieroglyphs and the Linear A script are old enough to fit into the claimed time frame, and were in use at the claimed time, it is worth noting that an age of 3800 years predates the appearance of the Etruscan and Runic scripts in Europe by approximately 1000 and 2000 years, respectively. This is highly inconsistent with the hypothesis that these supposedly 3800-year-old symbols are Etruscan and Runic. At the same time, it is perfectly consistent with the hypothesis that somebody went through a bunch of alphabets until they found something that seemed to match the symbols.

  • chilegirl

    American Petrographic Services Inc. studied the Bat Creek Stone and found it to be authentic. The report includes photographs, methods and procedures used, original notes and letters and drawings from the excavator John Emmert. It is an intelligent, unbiased, states the facts report. No assumptions, no speculations. I read a story by Lowell Kirk about how the Bat Creek stone “might ” have been planted. It is so convoluted and full of speculation and assumption that it is ridiculous. If people are really interested then read the American Petrographic Services report done in 2010. And concerning the religion thing there is no need to make fun of any belief. It is disturbing that people attack based on misinformation and believe anything they read whether it is about religion, politics or whatever. Search for informed and unbiased information about ALL things. Being mean, name calling, and putting others down is immature and pointless. Lastly scholars never agree with one another. There are always divisions.

    • trj

      We’ve already had a “discussion” with Scott Wolter, president of American Petrographic Services, on this page.

  • jcam

    Scott is a special person. The question you need to ask is “does the methodology used have acceptance in the scientific community”. if it does it would be fnd in peer reviewed journals. It is not. So a fringe technique that allows conclusions that are “revolutionary” should be taken with a large grain of sodium chloride. Mr. Wolters also holds similar opinions about concrete performance that have been discredited by methodical, controlled experiments. Only one of these approaches makes interesting self published books. Guess which one

  • vasaroti

    Nothing to see here. The 19th century was chock full of romantic ethnic history and archaeological hoaxes. This is just another.

  • Lightkeeper

    I really read these comments to see everyone’s opinion on the bat creek stone but found a discussion of everything but the stone. Really, if I wanted to read discussions on religion and atheism, I can read it daily on CNN or msn discussion boards. So sad to see no original thinking or theories on this very interesting topic.

    • UrsaMinor

      Really, if I wanted to read discussions on religion and atheism, I can read it daily on CNN or msn discussion boards.

      Would you mind explaining why you think it’s a useful exercise to come to a blog about religion and atheism to complain about that?

    • Custador

      Okay, I’ll start:

      Wow, that thing’s an OBVIOUS fake!

  • Wade Baker

    I love how something that’s found and doesn’t fit accepted historical doctrine is automatically a “forgery”.
    The only reason the Smithsonian goons haven’t “lost” this stone is because it’s too well documented already.

    • Custador

      Um. No. It’s because this thing is a fucking obvious forgery.

  • Donovan

    Man up! Native Americans are Judah ancestors! Japheth(invaders) killed the true Hebrews, exiled to this country from the Holy Land. You’re people were supposed to bring the Native American back to the Lord Jesus with the Word of God and by example, instead you raped the women and killed the men then spread you’re deadly plague throughout the Americas. You enslaved them, took all their land and resources, hunted them down like animals and left them in the fields to rot. Only a remnant remain and they are to return to the Lord their God!


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