Ireland Closes Vatican Embassy

Ireland just gave a middle finger to the Catholic church, and it’s a bit shocked. They closed down their embassy to the Vatican because the fees were too expensive. Imagine that.

Well, and I’d guess the whole priests-raping-their-children thing might have factored into it, too.

Catholic Ireland’s stunning decision to close its embassy to the Vatican is a huge blow to the Holy See’s prestige and may be followed by other countries which feel the missions are too expensive, diplomatic sources said on Friday.

The closure brought relations between Ireland and the Vatican, once ironclad allies, to an all-time low following the row earlier this year over the Irish Church’s handling of sex abuse cases and accusations that the Vatican had encouraged secrecy.

Ireland will now be the only major country of ancient Catholic tradition without an embassy to the Vatican. [...]

Dublin’s foreign ministry said the embassy was being closed because “it yields no economic return” and that relations would be continued with an ambassador in Dublin.

The source said the Vatican was “extremely irritated” by the wording equating diplomatic missions with economic return, particularly as the Vatican sees its diplomatic role as promoting human values.

Diplomats said the Irish move might sway others to follow suit to save money because double diplomatic presences in Rome are expensive.

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  • dutchhobbit

    A victory for Ireland. W00t!!!11oneone

  • Custador

    I can’t help feeling the Vatican missed the point by being “extremely irritated” that Ireland are closing their embassy because it “yields no economic return”.

    The sub-text is fucking obvious to a particularly stupid potato:

    The Vatican charges a ridiculous rent as a sly way of getting Irish money into the Vatican without it raising as many eyebrows back in the Emerald Isle as a blatant gift of cash would. In previous years, this was done with the tacit approval of whoever was in power in Ireland. However, now that the Catholic church are in reflex attack-mode because of the Irish PM wanting answers about paedophile priests.

    The Catholic church are so arrogant and self-centred that they honestly don’t see why they should answer to legal authority, so they’re tearing into the Irish political establishment. And they, in turn, have decided that Darth Pope and his nasty little clique can go fuck themselves. They’ve stopped paying the “rent” (read “tribute”) that the Vatican wants to levy on them.

    Kudos, Ireland. I am deeply impressed at you.

  • Bertrand T Russell

    Al of my fondest dreams are coming true…………….. Aaaaaaaaah!!!!!!

  • Straight Shooter

    It is interesting that the PM referred to the “economics” as the cause of the closing of the embassy. Ireland abandoned the Church decades ago when the new god became prosperity and money. Church attendance, especially among the under 40 crowd, fell a long time ago, and all of Ireland knows it. The new god has abandoned them as their central bank went belly up to the tune of at least 34 billion Euro. Unemployment is harming many families.
    Only by returning to Christ in the Eucharist will the country find the love it needs to heal the many sufferings it is enduring. Anger at the church will not solve the problem.

    • Custador

      You were doing quite well until that last paragraph, really. After that… Well, bland assertions about [personal choice of mythology here] aren’t very meaningful, are they?

      • Straight Shooter

        [personal choice of mythology here] is an assertion that comes from the bizarre constructs of the so-called “Age of Enlightenment.” The philosophy of that era was that if you couldn’t weigh it, measure it, or put it into a bottle, then it was only a personal opinion. This brazen construct thus reduced all religion, especially belief in Jesus Christ, down to a mere “opinion.” In fact, by what magical power do the secularists actually make this claim? Why should any reasonable person believe that reducing Christ down to a [personal choice of mythology here] is an answer to any human conflict? Christ shows us how to resolve our conflicts without harming each other. Christ could have destroyed his enemies, but chose to be crucified rather than crucify others. BTW, I don’t think he would be so rude as to reduce an argument down to a silly bumper sticker slogan, such as [personal choice of mythology here].

        • Elemenope

          Jesus taught all sorts of good (and a few downright crummy) lessons that are familiar the world over, in different wording, precisely because they are the opposite of groundbreaking. He was not the first to teach them, and certainly not the only one to teach them. So he may have shown some folks a way to transcend their animosities, but that is no cause to fall down and worship the guy.

          And given how unoriginal his contribution was, attributing to him divine power simply because of his (mostly) good advice is quite simply you reading your own personal choice of mythology into the situation. A person like me who does not share your personal spiritual proclivities is not at all impressed with the attributions of divine power that inevitably follow the observation that his ideas weren’t half bad.

        • Twin-Skies

          //This brazen construct thus reduced all religion, especially belief in Jesus Christ, down to a mere “opinion.” //

          The witch doctor down the street was saying almost exactly the same thing, about medical science ruining his voodoo business. Are you on his payroll.

          • Umilta

            You switched subjects, (Jesus Christ & witch doctor) and then implied that both are the same. You have not actually formed a rational argument, because there is not middle term connection your assertion with your conclusion. Strong opinions not backed up with rational argument are only hot air.

            • Custador

              Woah thar’, hos! this is your argument for Christianity?!

              “Strong opinions not backed up with rational argument are only hot air.”

              I hate to break this to you, O-Thick-One, but for everybody else that’s a bloody strong argument against Christianity! Aside from the act that you totally missed the point of Twin’s post: Voodoo and Christianity are both religions, and they’re both based on mythology that has no supporting evidence (and a metric fuck-ton of evidence against, by the way). You’re engaging in what’s known as “Special Pleading” for your preferred brand of supernatural bullshit to be given credibility and respect, while simultaneously dismissing everybody else’s brand of supernatural bullshit for the same reasons they reject yours (and we reject all of them).

              Umilta, you are a long fucking way out of your depth in this discussion. Really.

    • Gordon

      Anger at the church could help, by forcing them to pay Ireland what they owe – thus clearing Ireland’s debt!

      • dutchhobbit

        The Vatican sure has the money for it.

    • JohnMWhite

      I am pretty sure when the country was joined at the hip to Christ in the Eucharist, their children were getting raped in the hundreds. A good portion of the suffering it is enduring is because of the Catholic Church. Ireland certainly did not say that leaving the Vatican would solve their economic problems, but their economic problems did not happen because the Irish authorities finally stepped in to try to stop the Vatican’s tacit approval and enabling of rampant child abuse. There is no connection, unless you mean to say that the god you worship is just such an evil entity it would wreck a country’s economy in order to bully them into giving up their children to be raped. Really, I would like you to explain yourself and hope it will be without revealing yourself to be a vicious enemy of all decency by defending the largest paedophile ring in the world. I’m sure you’d call that an ad hominem, but if you really think that fixing the economy by sucking up to a god is more important than protecting children from sexual abuse, what else are we to think but that you are a petty, cruel, dogmatic drone devoid of conscience?

      • Straight Shooter

        The molestation of anyone, especially a minor, is one of the most hideous evils that can ever occur. This creates a reaction in the victim that continues long after the crime has ended. The victim looses his or her sense of “personhood.” It can take decades of effort to restore what is lost. I know, because I am a victim of such evil. But I can also say that Jesus Christ can heal the memories of those who suffer. I know this. :)

        • Twin-Skies

          //But I can also say that Jesus Christ can heal the memories of those who suffer.//

          And where was Jesus when these kids were being molested by his followers in the first place?

          //I know this. :)// You claim so, but why should we believe you?

          • Umilta

            Why would anyone believe anything that anyone says? In fact, it is better to trust someone until that person is proved untrustworthy than to trust no one until proven trustworthy. Why? Because to trust no one is a symptom of paranoia, which is a serious psychiatric illness. Surely you don’t really mean to promote paranoia, do you?

    • Jer

      Economies have had cycles for much longer even than Ireland’s ties to
      Rome. The idea that separating their state from the church ever so slightly is related to the latest downturn is just silly.

    • Sazz

      As a young Irish person I can agree that church attendance is falling. But the reason, I think, is because young people in Ireland are two things; Lazy…and extremely educated. Yes it’s true that we really just couldn’t be arsed getting up at 10am on a Sunday morning but also we have become one of the most educated generations of young people around the world. In reality we have grown too clever to need God.

      • Umilta

        Are you to clever to need Christ? And where will you find Him or His capacity to love your enemies? In clever places, such as the Internet? Will solve all of your conflicts and problems? Besides which, where do you intend to be in 10,000 years? How do you intend to get there? Do you really hope that your life will end forever? Seriously?

        • Custador

          My Srvr Spider Munkeh Sense was tingling, and I do love it when I’m right: Umilta is a sock-puppet of Straight Shooter. That would be considered naughty around these parts, Umilta. Please don’t do it again.

        • Custador

          1) Christianity is a net exporter of conflict, pain and violence. That’s not even slightly debatable.
          2) sells books, films and music. Minus ten internets from Slytherin for the stupid rhetorical question.
          3) What I hope has got fuck all to do with what will be when it comes to life after death. You don’t get to live forever just because you want to. It’s juvenile to think you might.

  • elainek123

    f I had a child that had been abused by any Priest, Nun, Rabbi etc. I would have rather gone to jail for life for murder then know that they are free to abuse any more children.
    Close the Vatican altogether then see where these priests will be able to hide.
    I believe that confessions should not be private any more and if any priest is found to have heard from any priest in confession that they had been an abuser then they should be obliged to report them not to the Church but to the World.. Of course this wont happen until we all get together ,maybe outside Canterbury Cathedral, then perhaps the news stations will cover this story more to get rid of these abusers for all time.

    • blotonthelandscape

      That kind of reform would be a fantastic (if small) step. A pity the vatican has proved so inept at solving it’s problems. Our priests are molesting children? Better re-affirm our aversion to women in clergy!

      And I’m not sure the powers that be are in the habit of being swayed by popular opinion.

      • Len

        A pity the vatican has proved so inept at solving it’s problems.

        Not really – they moved the guilty priests around so they could do it again, then hushed everything up. It rather depends on your definition of solving problems.

  • Silas

    A sad day for Ireland….money is the main reason for closure Ha!When our leaders forsake God this is what happens. You can not blame the whole Church for few people ‘s mistake and sin.

    • Sunny Day

      A few mistakes? The mistakes are endemic to the whole institution of the church.

      A molester priest is a mistake. The deliberate hiding of them, the facilitation of providing them new hunting grounds, and the pattern of obfuscation and orders from higher up in the church that enables these monsters, is what makes it the whole rotten edifice of the church responsible.

      Fuck you and your “few mistakes.”

    • blotonthelandscape

      I’ve yet to see a country fail because of secularisation.

      • Straight Shooter

        Really? Then how do you explain the fall of the Soviet Union? They gave up God and destroyed millions. They killed off 7 million Ukrainians alone in the winter of 1932-33. To survive their godless (=pointless) lives, they turned to vodka. When Mikhail Gorbachev came to the United States, one of the first things that he did was ask representatives from A.A. to set up meetings in Moscow. There is substantial speculation that the failure of the potato crop, which is used to produce vodka, led to the end of communism there, because it force the people to sober up and deal with their despair.
        So yes, secularism most definitely does lead to the destruction of a country.

        • Elemenope

          I am gobsmacked by the sheer amount of nonsense in the above post.

          Personally, I explain the fall of the Soviet Union as a three-pronged affair, with the collapse of the command economy (and its inability to compete with distributed models), military overinvestment (driven by the Cold War), and internal ethnic strife and erstwhile nationalism amongst many ethnic groups in the Union.

          But what do I know. Clearly, it was the vodka drying up.

          Perhaps you are referring to Gorbachev’s 1985 reforms (the first batch) that included ending massive state subsidies for alcohol production. It was driven not by grain/potato shortages but as a continuation of a proposed policy by his predecessor, Chernenko, to reduce the economic ill-effects of alcoholism. The campaign lasted for only two years, and had no impact on the stability of the regime.

          If you want an out-of-the-box cause that is often overlooked, in September 1985 Saudi Arabia, in its role as a largest stakeholder in OPEC, suddenly increased oil production to crater the price of oil (and make a bid for control of oil reserves by bankrupting rivals); this had the overnight effect of bankrupting one of the few areas of the USSR economy that was functioning in the black: petroleum production. From this price shock the industry did not recover, at least not before the collapse of the regime.

          • Straight Shooter

            You believe that alcoholism had nothing to do with it, but then state that two premiers attempted to halt it. Which is it: was there alcoholism or not? Oh wait, secularists are incapable of recognizing a contradiction in their thinking.

            • Elemenope

              Alcoholism in the Czech Republic is a serious problem. 2nd highest consumption rate in the world (highest is Moldova), and notably higher than it ever was in Russia. It is a serious economic drag and a cause of much early, preventable death. What it notably isn’t is a threat to the stability of the Czech Republic.

              Something can be a problem, even a big problem, and not be a credible cause of the collapse of a nation-state.

            • Custador

              Minus ten internets for misunderstanding / stupid use of the word “secularists”.

            • B-dawg

              Idiot. I’ve been an atheist since I was 18, and I’ve never been driven to drink by not believing in your god. In fact, I drank more as a (nominally Christian) teenager than I ever have since… and as for life being “pointless” without your god? It’s only pointless if you think it is… life has whatever value you want it to have. It’s subjective, stupid!

            • argle

              Want to know what’s funny? The only time I have ever consumed alcohol in my pointless, despairing atheist life was a single sip of communion wine, before my parents let me stop going to church.

              …Sorry, don’t let me get in the way of your tinfoil adventure.

        • UrsaMinor

          Ah, yes, rampant secularism is why the Chinese government has collapsed too.

          Oh, wait…

          • Umilta

            The communist government of China has murdered between 49 and 78 million of their citizens since it took over the country. Could fear be the reason that the government has not ended? How would you react if your government had used its power to kill millions of its enemies? Do you really think that you would actively oppose it? It would be helpful if you knew at least a little about what you are talking about.

            • UrsaMinor

              The whistling noise you hear is the sound of my point going right over your head.

              I am not arguing for or against the beneficence of the Chinese government. If you actually read my post, you will notice that I have expressed no opinion about its character.

              I was responding to the Straight Shooter’s assertion that secularism leads to the fall of a government. It has clearly not led to the fall of the Chinese government.

            • Custador

              I’m not sure if you’re spamming or not, but I’m very sure you’re an idiot.

              40 to 70 million people died during Mao Zedong’s rule, yes. But they weren’t murdered. Most died of starvation. I’m not saying the Communist regime wasn’t culpable for those deaths, but there’s a massive difference between murder and negligence.

              Shall we discuss the country with the highest per-capita prison population in the world? Protip: It starts with a U and ends in a “nited States of America”.

              Or how about we examine the nation that’s killed the most foreign civilians in the last two decades? Want to guess who that is?

              There we go then.

              (Edit: This wasn’t aimed at Ursa, obviously).

            • Custador

              @ Umilta: I’ve removed your post because you are now referring to (and supporting) yourself in the third person, pretending that you are not you. That is called “sock-puppetry”, and I’ve already pointed it out and asked you not to do it. The fact that there’s a post from “Nuff Said” in the exact same words as you later posted as “Umilta” (except that as “Nuff Said” you also used the same email address as “Straight Shooter”) sitting in the spam filter tells me that somebody else has already banned you once for some reason or another (it wasn’t me, by the way), but since you insist on sock-puppeting within minutes of being asked not to, allow me to double-down.

        • Twin-Skies

          Ironically, the communist regime of the USSR exhibited the following symptoms:

          1. Blind obedience to dogma
          2. Violent enforcement against any form of dissent.
          3. A cult of personality (Stalin)
          4. Close-mindedness to any ideas that the communist party found disagreeable
          5. Paranoia.

          All characteristics of a theocracy, or a religion I might add.

  • Umilta

    Alcoholism is not a cause, but a symptom of moral decay. In the Soviet Union, alcoholism was so rampant that the people had an expression, “They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work.” There was despair throughout society. You are correct in denouncing theocracy, but you should realize that athiesm is also capable of creating the same thing through a belief in nothing other than the self. The issue is not who hold power over the morals of a country. Instead, according to a letter written by Pope Gelasius to the Emperor in the 5th century, because of the “pride of man (i.e. our fallen state) no person should be entrusted with both the civil power and the moral power.” In other words, the Catholic Church is on record from early on as being opposed to any union of power between church and state.

    • Custador

      1) This thread is not about alcoholism.

      2) The Russian expression you quoted has nothing to do with alcoholism.

      3) The volume of content-devoid God-spam you’re churning out is making Teh Srvr Munkehs cranky.

    • Nox

      “Instead, according to a letter written by Pope Gelasius to the Emperor in the 5th century, because of the “pride of man (i.e. our fallen state) no person should be entrusted with both the civil power and the moral power.” In other words, the Catholic Church is on record from early on as being opposed to any union of power between church and state.


      Assuming you are referring to Gelasius’ letter to Anastasius, this is a complete misrepresentation.

      Gelasius didn’t oppose “any union of power between church and state”. He said the state should bow to the church. And that the emperor should bow to the pope. That’s not quite what is meant by “separation of church and state (which is meant to both protect the state from interference by the church, and protect churches from interference by the state)”.

  • Aferferk

    “In other words, the Catholic Church is on record from early on as being opposed to any union of power between church and state.”

    Yeah it was quite a while ago that they might have actually believed that.

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