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That’s another aspect of christianity’s guilt complex….. Make everyone else feel guilty.
Evil and the Devil/Satan are part of Jehovah/Jesus’s plan which is to torture humanity into worshiping it as a God. Our suffering will teach us the lesson to love, honor and obey Jehovah as a God as we cower, conform and comply to Jehovah’s rule over us.
A sick twisted plan of a psychopathic cold blooded killer.
Jesus’ plan? Maybe you’re confusing the Old Testament god, or the Christian version of Jesus, or some other preconceived notion of Jesus with the true Jesus. Reading only the words ascribed to him presents a man much different than the one you’ve imagined here.
True Atheism (if that’s what you are) is not about throwing out reason, and the teachings Jesus presented are completely reasonable, and in accordance with most people’s conscience. Throwing out God because you refuse to believe in a jealous, murderous, contemptible, (etc) god is completely reasonable. Joining that god to the teachings of Jesus without first knowing the difference between the two is not.
Are you suggesting he is not a TrueAtheist™?
No, I suggested a brief definition of atheism, which includes the use of reason.
Atheism is defined as not believing in god. I know plenty of teenagers who are atheists and, trust me, it has nothing to do with reason.
Good point.
Absolutely. Not believing in any gods does not require the use of reason, any more than believing that there are gods does.
I would guess that the majority of atheists arrive at their position by the use of reason, but it is not the only way to be an atheist by any means.
I’m not any fonder of irrational atheists than I am of irrational theists, personally. If one cannot explain the basis for one’s beliefs, something is wrong.
Do you mean to say that there is a non-Christian version of Jesus out there? I think the Christians would disagree with you.
Did you just No True Atheist the previous commenter? And I thought I’ve seen everything up until just then.
Personally, as an atheist(I don’t know if I match your idea of a True Atheist(tm)), I don’t claim that there are no Gods out there at all. The universe is old, and it is vast, and no one knows what came before it and will come after it. To say that there are no Gods or God-like being out there is, to my mind and speaking for myself only, akin to Christians wanting to put the Ten Commandments all over the place while at the same time claiming to know the mind of God and to speak for said God(ie., taking the Lord’s name in vain).
So no, I don’t throw out the concept of God out of hand. I am open to the possibility. Unfortunately, nothing has yet come along to shake my conviction that there is, in fact, no God, not Christian God, not Muslim God, not any kind of God at all. Except maybe Thor. Any God that wears armour like that has got to be real. Am I right?
“Did you just No True Atheist the previous commenter? And I thought I’ve seen everything up until just then.”
No. But I suppose one might take it that way if they were looking for an argument. People ’round here get so touchy sometimes. Just saying….
Since the only place the Jesus character can be found is in the buybull, where he is claimed to be the same asshole god of the OT, lumping them together is completely justified. Before you try to argue that the teaching of jesus are any more or less rational then anything how about providing even a shred of evidence that jesus actually said any of these things (or maybe you can start by proving he actually existed).
‘you can start by proving he actually existed’
He has already told you the Way, shown it to you friend. You can surely know, if you want to, yes indeed you can. You can prove Him anytime that you choose to ‘begin to number your days and so gain a heart of wisdom’ Ps 90:12. Tick tock, tick tock, tick…
He is the ‘light that lights every man coming into the world’. Jn 1:9. That includes you too, Yoav.
You surely can’t think John C that that is any kind of a reply. Biblical babble is no kind of proof of existence. In effect, Jesus exists because the NT says so: the NT is proof because it was inspired by Jesus. A completely circular argument, ever the resort of the rationality-challenged.
Not so-
We know John C exists because of his biblical babble: the biblical babble is proof because it was inspired by John C.
I take it these comments are directed at me? I suppose I’ll take a shot at replying:
“Since the only place the Jesus character can be found is in the buybull, where he is claimed to be the same asshole god of the OT, lumping them together is completely justified.”
—-I’m not sure what Bible you’ve been reading, but I don’t recall Jesus ever saying he was the Old Testament God. He even spoke out against that “god” on occasion, making reference to Old Testament stories. I think you’ve mistaken some modern day Christian teachings for the teachings of Jesus? This is why is said plamabornes comments weren’t reasonable. They take a false presupposition (that Jesus is the same as the god of the OT) as means to justify discrediting the teachings of Jesus. I think it is only fair to judge Jesus by his own words–and I would hope most reasonable people would agree.
“Before you try to argue that the teaching of jesus are any more or less rational then anything how about providing even a shred of evidence that jesus actually said any of these things (or maybe you can start by proving he actually existed).”
—-That is absolutely irrelevant. You’re bringing an entirely new argument which has nothing to do with either plamaborne or my comments. But if I were to answer that, I would say this: Attach any name you like to the words, they still remain true, reasonable, and relevant. Whether or not Jesus ever existed is a pointless diversion. My comments were made about the words (in other words, the teachings) that are attributed to Jesus. If you want to say we don’t know who actually said those words or if a man named Jesus ever existed, fine. It won’t change the fact that those teachings are far removed from the ones attributed to “God” in the Old Testament.
Same God Nathan. The OT is God seen through the knowledge of good & evil, a duality, the NT through grace and truth (a truer revelation, which Christ manifested is).
‘Behold I (Christ) come to do Thy will oh Lord. He takes away the first (covenant, the law) in order to establish the second (covenant, grace)’. Heb 10:9
Your quote from Hebrews is not Jesus speaking. Therefore it cannot be relevant since I was defending his teachings.
Your idea of the OT being seen through the lens of good and evil does not hold water because it is precisely the OT which demonstrates Gods evil nature—the same OT which purports to contain the very words of God given to Moses. Words that caused the murder of untold thousands, the forced marriage (raping) of virgin women and then the abandonment of such women (adultery), the theft of properties, the taking of slaves, the establishment of governments, judges, military’s, police forces, and many other detestable acts, all of which Jesus condemned.
Yes, the Hebrews passage is taken from Ps 40 in which David (a type of Christ, a foreshadowing) says the very same thing friend.
Additionally, the Holy Spirit is the Author of all scripture (2 Tim 3:16) and since ‘They’ are One, yes, Jesus is ‘speaking’. Besides, that’s the entire focus of the unfolding revelation woven thru the scriptures, ie Christ’s coming (in the flesh, our flesh too) to do the will of the Father since we couldn’t in our own self-efforts, ie our flesh (which the OT is a picture of).
Those various and heinous ‘atrocities’ you reference in the OT…aren’t. You don’t understand what the ‘Amalekites’ represent, etc, are still seeing in the literal sense but God is Spirit (Jn 4:24) and His a spiritual kingdom & higher reality. This is the life of faith, to transition from outward, visible, literal things to inward, hidden, spiritual understandings. (2 Cor 4:18).
I realize you feel the need to separate Christ from the OT but its only a matter of discernment.
Perhaps this little limerick of sorts will help you remember how the OT & NT relate: ‘The OLD is by the NEW revealed, the NEW is in the OLD concealed’.
All the best Nathan.
What exactly is reasonable about hating your family and not changing a letter of the law of the Old Testament? These are things Jesus said, after all.
He fulfills the law in us (above referenced verses) and the family we ‘hate’ is our fallen condition and identity compared to our true, heavenly one. He told Abraham (after Terah, Abe’s earthy father passed) ‘get thee out of thy country and kin, leave your fathers house’ (Gen 12:1) which, in its deeper context is rooted in identity.
Its a ‘whose son art thou’ thing. So, JMW, whose son are you?
I don’t know about you, but I am my parents’ son.
Yes Michael, you are squarely fixed, identified within your Adamic consciousness, for now anyways. And this is the worlds problem. The Father (Is 9:6) came to His own and they ‘recognized Him not’ (Jn 1:11). That is the veil that’s been cast over all of humanities eyes through the consequence of the fall of man, we’ve lost our heavenly consciousness, the knowledge of our true Paternal origins in Him who is life and love and light. So now, instead, we have darkness and we ‘do the deeds of our (perceived) father’.
Therefore He implores us to ‘leave our fathers house’ and come back UP to ‘our heavenly Father’ as Jesus called Him in what is called ‘the Lord’s prayer’.
Please, no offense intended, I trust you know my heart by now. All the best.
Does this Agnostic community get beyond the high school sophomore level? I can laugh at the Buddy Christ [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddy_Christ] as much as the next guy. But it is a wounding experience to see the person of Jesus Christ being ridiculed this way by infinite loop. I’m not expecting you to be moved by the cross-carrying exchange between Jesus and Judah Ben-Hur in the famous movie, but you are clearly intelligent enough to know that Christians are. Does this section of Patheos have any substantive wisdom to graciously pass along, or is it a collection of lost souls whose primary pleasure is dark humor and petty ridicule?
I’m sorry that the parody of a Mythical Figure disturbs you.
You could always look at lolcats, I hear they’re cute and funny. But then Basement Cat and Ceiling Cat are thinly veiled parodies of God and Satan
and again you would be wounded. I suggest you suck it up and realize your silly beliefs are not automatically entitled to respect.
As for what this website if for, maybe you should read the About tab on this website.
You don’t have a right to not be offended.
I think the 11/29 blog entry on the Global Blasphemy Law is apropos.
Would you 2 guys get a room please. I’m tired of hearing about the “copycat” religion known as Christianity. It’s time for a new religion, to really fuck up the world. Holy crap, has anybody heard and seen that the new messiah, A.J. Miller is in Australia “bringing in the sheep” . He tells them, ” I AM JESUS, GET OVER IT!”
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
I believe in God, I try to be good and when I don’t manage it I pray for forgiveness. I don’t thrust it down peoples’ throats, my faith is private between me and God. I don’t follow any particular religion unless you count the Church of England but I know that God loves me. He made me the way I am therefore the fact Iam bisexual is also the way he made me so he must be happy with it. I don’t follow the Bible strictly, I don’t even know much of it I don’t need to know it.
I am able to see the connection between creationism and evolution, I have my own views on that and they do not contradict each other they work together. I don’t claim to be a good Christian, I just try to live my life being kind and considerate to others and being the best person I can be. I am not perfect, no one is and no one can be. I hope for the best about heaven but I won’t hold my breath. I enjoy the debates on this site, I can see the points of view of most people, some make me laugh, some make me sad but mostly they make me think.
“when I don’t manage it I pray for forgiveness.”
Why? Didn’t your god already promise you forgiveness?
Are you giving it reminders in case it forgets?
“I am able to see the connection between creationism and evolution, I have my own views on that and they do not contradict each other they work together.”
Could you expand on what you mean by creationism and evolution as they certainly can contradict each other dependent on what you take those terms to mean?
And now us, gee thanks.
Why wouldn’t we count the CoE as a religion?
Let me hazard a guess that you have no idea what the theory of evolution actually is.