Tillman and Tebow

For Vorjack and Revyloution.

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  • Revyloution

    FTW. I’m saving this quickmeme, and posting under the comments wherever Tebow is mentioned.

  • vorjack

    Nicely done.

    • Custador

      I had Teh Srvr Munkehs knock it up in Shoop for me. They’re getting better.

  • http://larianlequella.com Larian LeQuella

    Sharing this on Memebase for more popularity. Linking it back here of course.

  • NelsonMuntz

    I fucking love that.

  • Nzo

    *Killed by friendly fire; three shots to the head. Take a wild guess as to why this happened, and why they tried to cover it up.

    • UrsaMinor

      Surely you are not suggesting that theists would kill nonbelievers, because theists are, like, all ethical and stuff.

      • James

        Surely you jest when you say that theists are perfectly innocent and have not killed others before.

        • Jon

          Surely you understood the post you replied to was sarcastic.

          • UrsaMinor

            Surely not.

  • Custador

    Honestly? I doubt it was murder. Many automatics will fire a three-round burst fast enough to put all three slugs through the same hole. Besides, to my knowledge it was a blue-on-blue, meaning an entirely different unit mistook his outfit for enemy and engaged them. Plus his brother is a Ranger, and there’s no way he wouldn’t have heard tell if it was suspicious. Absent better evidence, I just don’t see it.

    • Custador

      Should have been a reply to Nzo, obviously.

    • http://fugodeus.com Nox

      There isn’t enough publicly available evidence to say with certainty that he was murdered.

      There is enough publicly available evidence to say that Tillman’s death was suspicious.

      • Nzo

        True, but let’s just say my spidey-sense was tingling.

        Custador, I didn’t catch the separate unit part, but the cover-up is smoking-gun enough for me to make my assumptions. When all the details come out, I’ll change my mind… if indeed it needs changing.

        • Nzo

          I mean… his own unit burning his journal – totally standard operating procedure.

          • Custador

            I was unaware of that detail, but if his unit had been involved in ops that were less than savoury or legal (which is possible), then I can see why they’d burn it. Not saying it wasn’t murder, but playing devil’s advocate a second.

            • dallashyland

              It was his own unit. Good sources are Boots on the Ground by Dark by Mary Tilman and Where Men Win Glory by Jon Krakauer. Also, The Tilman Story, a documentary film was a great source. He was killed at close considerably close range by automatic weapon fire from a moving vehicle by a man who knew him well. The three round burst theory having a less than one inch minute of angle at thirty yards from an automatic weapon in a moving vehicle is arguably impossible. Worth the read folks to know the whole story if you like.

              As for his personal convictions versus Teabow, it is pretty clear Tilman walked his talk. We’ll see with Teabow, he’s not done yet.

    • kdizzle4shizzle

      The M-16A2 service rifle fires a three round burst, but from a distance as close as 20 meters, it would still have a 3 shot pattern extending at least a couple of feet from the 1st hole to the 3rd hole. This was murder.

      • Daniel

        The M249 fires the same rounds at a much higher rate.

    • david anthony

      wrong. read krakauer’s book for fucks sakes b4 commenting.

  • Reginald Selkirk

    But but … Tebow went overseas too. It wasn’t to fight the evil Al Qaeda, it was to snip the foreskins of native boys.

  • grumpygirl

    Pat Tilman gave it all. ‘Nuff said.

  • Leland Somers

    They’re both hot. Other than that WTF cares.

    • Custador

      Quite a lot of people, to be honest. There’s some serious coverage of both men talking about how principled they are. The point I’m trying to make is, one actually was demonstrating his principles in a practical manner, and the other one is just pandering to co-religionists while not actually doing anything principled at all.

      • Stan Brooks

        That isn’t true at all. Tebow (whether you like his principles or no) does a lot to back up what he believes. He gives time, money and effort to causes he believes in. He spreads the teachings he believes in ( which btw you are suppose to if you are a good christian). He saved himself for marriage.

        You can not like what he believes but I think the man has proven that he is practices what he preaches. You should respect that.

        • UrsaMinor

          What is he preaching when he prays publicly at the game? It isn’t the Bible, which says that you should pray privately.

          I’m willing to give him a pass on the other points, though.

          • Stan Brooks

            He is not the only person that does that and I see no reason why he should be made a point of scorn.

            He is not making anyone join in with his public prayer. He does not even ask for a moment of silence.

            • calthopian

              He’s still being a hypocrite by his religion though, that’s undeniable.
              Matthew 6:6-8 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

            • UrsaMinor

              He’s a public figure who calls himself a good Christian and is grandstanding with his prayers in order to draw attention to that fact, in direct contravention of the instructions of the Bible that he supposedly follows.

              It doesn’t matter what I think of his beliefs. This is hypocrisy on his part, whether I subscribe to his belief system or not. Your mileage may vary, but I think it deserves to be made a point of scorn.

          • TimwheresthecameraTebow

            He simply does all of these things for attention. Hes a televangelist in a football uniform.

        • http://fugodeus.com Nox

          Depends on one’s definition of good christian. There was one early christian who suggested “And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.”.

          The point of the OP is that some people demonstrate their principles by shouting about their principles, and some demonstrate their principles by demonstrating their principles. Did Tillman going to Afghanistan actually help anyone? Probably not. But he could have had a reasonable expectation that it would. And it is certainly an act of self sacrifice that far outweighs taking an NFL contract and writing bible verses on your eyeshadow.

          • joy

            The thing to consider is the reason behind what they do and only the creator knows the intention of the heart because he created us to say we know his reason for doing what he does that is passing judgment do you want people to judge you by every little flaw you make. It is one thing that if we see someone not doing right we GENTLY tell them there is a better way to do that and if they are wise they listen and see if the way you put in front of them is better. Who are we to say my way is the only way we were not there in the beginning. We can only guess at the best way as this season comes upon us I thing of a christmas carrol the people with faith they had peace through the storm. The ones that depended on their own didn’t seem happy untill they had faith,he learned the hard way from his partner.

      • Hmm.

        Oh I see. Tebow is demonstrating his principles by starting charities, and Tillman is pandering to co-religionists by going to Afghanistan to kill the Mooslums. That picture is stupid.

    • UrsaMinor

      If somebody is physically attractive, I’ll look once. If they have questionable ethics, I won’t look twice.

  • http://litbrit.blogspot.com Deborah Newell Tornello

    Many automatics will fire a three-round burst fast enough to put all three slugs through the same hole.

    True. But as the distance between the rifle and target increase, so will the separation of the slugs. In Tillman’s case, they were extremely close together, all on his forehead, if memory serves me well (it has been a while since I read the redacted inquiry). I have never seen the actual ballistics report wrt this incident (not sure if it was ever released, actually), nor do I know what the wind conditions were, but for the slugs to meet their target so close together, the shooter had to have been close enough to see whom he was shooting. Furthermore, the type of rifle Rangers use has three settings–single, manual burst, and automatic burst. I am told by a former SEAL friend that the standard way to set that rifle is on single or manual, since blasting at everything in auto-burst is a bad habit and will eat through your ammo in a big hurry, and you want to avoid having to carry all that weight around (to feed your habit). Switching to manual or auto-burst is a deliberate act, and it is thus somewhat difficult to believe the “automatic rifle just went off/it was an accident” theory.

    Maybe it was one of those specisl magic rifles with Bible verses engraved on the barrell?!

  • http://litbrit.blogspot.com Deborah Newell Tornello

    (Er, the above should read “switching from single or manual or auto-burst” is a deliberate act.)

  • http://litbrit.blogspot.com Deborah Newell Tornello

    I cannot type on this iPad thing! And no preview…

    Okay, what I am trying to say is: when not literally engaged in active combat, they generally keep the rifles on single shot (not, from what I understand, on manual burst or autoburst) and switching to manual burst (for one shot) or auto-burst (for that and all subsequent shots) involves a deliberate act, in advance of pulling the trigger.

    Forgive the multiple posts.

    • Chris

      Just a small correction. The M-16/M-4 series of service rifle have a 3 position safety. The first position is “Safe” – pull trigger no round fired, “Semi” – pull trigger and one round fired, “Burst/Auto” depending on specific model of rifle can either be a 3 round burst or fully automatic. Generally you would want to carry the rifle in Safe mode, so that if the trigger is accidentally hit it will not fire and cause injuries to fellow soldiers, until you are in an active fire zone, then it would be in semi or burst depending on the circumstances.

    • JV

      If memory serves correct, Tillman was shot by a Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) which only fires on automatic. Rangers are well trained shooters, and a “tight” shot group from this weapon is totally plausable. You are correct in stating that Rangers, and all soldiers, are trained to fire in the “Semi” selection on M16/M4 rifles, but I don’t think that was the weapon system used.

  • http://www.floralcotton.com Mark

    I am an atheist, and loved Tillman… but I still like Tebow. He is obviously brainwashed but I believe his faith and goodness is genuine. I don’t think he is a phony.

    • Custador

      Does it make any difference? It’s still a fawning display of pious bullshit on a platform which has explicit rules against such displays. Wonder if he’d be allowed to display passages from the Q’Ran? Or the Communist Party Manifesto? There we go then. The fact that he might not realise how entitled he is doesn’t change the fact that he is.

      • Stan Brooks

        He prays after touchdowns. There are no rules against it. People are allowed to celebrate things in the NFL. He is not the only on that does it. He is breaking no rules.

        • Elemenope

          Nobody’s trying to stop him. That doesn’t make it immune from criticism. Something can be allowed and still be wrong.

          • Stan Brooks

            So are you saying that it is wrong to be outspoken about your beliefs?

            • UrsaMinor

              You might try staying on topic. It is his beliefs that are being criticized, not the fact that he is outspoken about them.

            • Elemenope

              Am I saying that? No. But I’m confused why more Christians aren’t. After all, it seems pretty plain from the teachings of Jesus that public piety is anathema to him. Proper charity is anonymous, proper prayer is private.

              How do Christians not see the problem with publicly thanking Jesus for blessing oneself with touchdowns? WWJD??

            • Daniel Florien

              I’m pretty sure Jesus said people should pray loudly in public so others know how godly they are. A core teaching and all. ;)

          • joy

            I would ask you to consider how school was like before they took prayer out of the school I often hear my parents talk about how school was for them they did not have to worry nearly as much the biggest thing that teachers had to worry about was like fist fights and ussually it was mildish injuries. However now days we have to worry with kids trying to take guns to school to kill. I would challenge everyone atheist or not to take a look at the scientific evidence of how our morals are declining. If christians do nothing I am sure the world will get worse, on the other hand if people who have influence will take a stand and live out the morals they believe that are positive it has no choice but to impact for good. Whether you know it or not you are someone’s role model knowing such what to do know is the question.

            • Custador

              I hear this fantasy history from Christans a lot, and I really only have two things to say to it:

              1) America’s downhill slide into moral decay began in the late 1950s. The phrase “under God” was added to the pledge of allegiance, and the phrase “in God we trust” became the US motto and started being printed on money in 1956. Therefore corruption and immorality is all God’s fault.

              2) Correlation is not the same as causation.

  • JDM

    How do the beliefs of either of these 2 men directly affect any of us? Just seems like a lot or arguing for nothing. Let people believe what they want to believe and don’t force it upon anyone. Seeing Tebow display his faith doesn’t affect my beliefs, just as Pat Tillman’s don’t either. That’s the beauty of this country, we can all believe whatever we want.

    • joy

      It encouages me to know that there are still some people with influence that want to make a positive difference in the world around them. When this is done it gives me hope that all is not lost.

  • rb

    Uh yeah put anyone next to pat tillman, and they will look dumb. And not sure why religion is relevant. I’m an atheist and I’m tired of hearing other atheists hate on people that aren’t. It’s fucking old, if you wanna hate on other people cuz they don’t believe what you believe, you can go vote for rick perry, then kill yourself.

    • Jabster

      C- must try harder …

    • Daniel Florien

      You seem like one of those nice people.

    • Beynon

      Apparently you aren’t familiar with r/atheism. The goal is to make memes based on anecdotal evidence and agree with it 10,000 times.

      • Jabster

        Have to go with a E+ there …

      • UrsaMinor

        I think you’re confusing atheism with religion.

  • Stephen

    One of these men was only 14 when the towers fell and thus to young to join the military.
    So I’m not understanding the comparison your trying to make.
    fyi I hate Tebow.

  • AG

    Tillman is the man for what he did no doubt about it. However you can’t take anything away from Tebow I’m pretty sure the guy goes to third world countries to help the unfortunate pretty regularly. Not many people do that. This probably wasn’t the best example…

    • Nzo

      I’ve mentioned it elsewhere, but a MASSIVE majority of the time, those that go to ‘help’ third world countries are just there for the “I’m a good person, and you’re not” photo-shoots. They ruin the local economy by making it easier, and more profitable in a lottery kind of way, to be as dirt poor as possible. No reason to farm, or work, etc. when big money charities roll in and give you everything you never could get with your own hard work.

      • Nzo

        Not to mention the homes they build usually only stand up long enough to take the photos. These people are not a true construction crew, and do not have to abide by any regulatory measures to keep the house standing.

        That’s just the tip of the iceberg, but you can find out more by doing some research… if you care to.

        • Custador

          There’s quite a good de-motivational poster of an anorexic Haitian woman taking a Bible from a fat white guy, with the caption “Thank you, that looks delicious”. Sums it up for me tbh.

          • Revyloution

            Every time someone posts that poster up, im stuck. Stuck trying to figure out if I should laugh, cry or scream.

  • Bob

    The ignorance of some people is just plain appalling. What is your issue with Tim Tebow? You say he’s a hypocrite but I would like for you to give me specifics as to where he is hypocritical? The man exclaims his love for the Lord and wears bible verses on his face to show how unashamed he is to be a Christian. When he prays, he doesn’t stop the game, drop to his knees and cry out to God to draw full attention to himself. If anything, he says a quiet prayer on the sideline. He isn’t doing it to draw attention to himself or make himself gain popularity. Did you happen to see his quote when he was asked why he talked about God so much? You should take a look at it if you haven’t.

    • UrsaMinor

      You might want to read the whole thread before commenting. The specifics are given above.

      But to repeat: he’s being called a hypocrite because he is presenting himself as a good Christian, yet he is praying very publicly when the Bible that he supposedly follows gives very clear instructions to pray privately and refrain from public displays of piety.

      Whether he is doing it to draw attention to himself and gain popularity, or whether he conceives of it as being for purely selfless reasons is not relevant. He doesn’t get to wear the mantle of ‘Good Christian’ if he flaunts the Bible.

    • joy

      Amen I agree he is not trying to show off when you have been delivered from a lot of junk (not saying that is the case because I do not know) but you have more exuberance for saying how good the person is that saved you. I have seen it time and again. Say you owed a person 1,000 dollars and someone decided to pay it for you, my guess is that if you owed say 100 dolars to someone else and a different person payed that bill that you would spend more time trying to be around the person more that paid the 1,000 dolars and you would be in their grattitude longer. The same basic idea applies. People that know how much God has saved them from seem to have more reverence,respect and appreciation.Whereas the people who have just been around church and did not go really wild as a teen don’t seem in my experiance to have the passion. To do stuff like praising God for a touch -down. This jazz about his life before God we all mess up it’s what we do with our mess ups that matters.

  • BallerMajor

    All of you should get back to your shitty day jobs and stop arguing over something that everyone could care less about

    • Nzo

      Something about black kitchenware comes to mind.

  • Douche

    One is cold stone dead and one will live forever.

    • Revyloution

      Your gravatar is well named.

    • joy

      Amen It’s all about who you know decides where you go. Frankly what do you have to loose if your right and there is no life after death we both win , but if your wrong do you really want to spend some time burning not exactly my idea of fun. The only way to stop the burning is to surrender to the master designer before you die, because once you die it is to late and by then you will know beyond any doubt but by then it will be to late. No God is not this vengful giant with a magnifying glass ready to call down fire for little stuff. He wants everyone to make it to heaven. He knows how many hairs we have on our head. He cares about every detail of our life he is our Dad. Not to be confussed with a male that is not worth his salt by beating, not being around. No God loves us to much for us to imagine the average person uses 10% or less of our brains So we can not possibly understand everthing or how much he loves us.

      • Azel

        You know that Pascal’s Wager is possibly the worst argument for God ? Because what if neither Christianism or Atheism are true ? Truth may be on Islam’s or on Hinduism’s side. In which case, you lost more than an atheist.
        And to say the truth, by Pascal own admission his Wager is for undecided people, for persons who are convinced neither by atheism nor by religions.

  • Bill

    Tebow’s humblebragging shtick bugs the shit out of me. He also bothers me because he’s a high profile representative of the type of religion that I believe is slowly rotting away the moral core of my country.

    Most of all, I find him offensive because HE’S A TERRIBLE QUARTERBACK. (This cannot be said loud enough. Seriously if you’re statistically terrible and your team keeps winning, they are winning inspite of you.)

    • drgoode

      He is 7-1. Better in EVERY stat than John Elway after 8 starts, and who won 2 superbowls (lost a few too), and is in the hall of fame.

      • Bill

        And yet, after 8 starts the football world almost universally thought Elway was the future of the franchise. While, nobody but the most homer Bronco’s fan thinks that about Tebow.

        Also, this:

        http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/11/18/sportscenters-elway-versus-tebow-1st-8-games-comparison-is-asinine/

        • drgoode

          You are entitled to your opinion, of course. The stats do not support your opinion.

          I suppose your mantra should be “keep hate alive.”

          • Bill

            See my post below citing why the stats support my opinion.

            • drgoode

              Other than the fact that his stats are better than John Elway by far, he is winning and winning is the ONLY stat that matters in football. He teammates LOVE him and play harder because of him, by their own accounts – just another fact not represented in the stats you post.

            • Bill

              Winning is the most important stat. You’re right. Unfortunately for your argument, teams with strong defenses and running games can win with bad quarterbacks. (See Ravens, Baltimore.)

              If his teamsmates really play harder for him than other QB’s they should be cut. They are well played to play hard no matter who is under center. (Of course it’s kind of doubtful that they actually do play harder for him.)

  • Bob

    what idiot posted this? i will bet you no one posting here has ever spent a summer working at an orphanage in the philippines. it’s pretty easy to sit behind a computer and rank people based on their moral values. but ya there’s no excuse for praying in public, that’s just outrageous. what a terrible human being

    • Revyloution

      Philippines? Nope missed that nation, I’ll try to put it on my list. I have worked lots of other charities. I also ‘tithe’ ten percent of my income to charities like Doctors without Boarders, MercyCorp, NPR, Smile Train and St. Judes (yes, an atheist donates to St. Judes. Shocker, I know).

      World statistics show that the more secular the nation, the higher the rate of giving, with Sweden, Norway and Finland leading as the most generous nations in the world.

  • Bob

    bill, you are also an idiot. tim tebow, if he qualified based on games played, would be in the top 10 in the league in quarterback rating. he has the highest td/interception ratio in the league. terrible? that would be your grammar as “in spite” is two words you retard

    • UrsaMinor

      that would be your grammar as “in spite” is two words you retard

      A. That’s a spelling error, not a grammar error.
      B. Coming from someone who’s not using capitalization or punctuation correctly, that’s pretty hypocritical.

    • Bill

      Tebow’s QBR is 30th out of 34 QB’s in the league. (http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7307382/nfl-week-13-total-qbr-season-leaders) Seriously, he’s worse than Mark Sanchez and Rex Grossman. That is not good by any stretch. In fact, it’s bad.

      His lack of turnovers (and turnover to TD ratio) is the one bright spot in his stats, and is largely driven by the fact that Denver runs the ball at a higher rate than most other teams in the league. If he threw at the rate of Aaron Rodgers, or even an average NFL QB, his stats in this area would not be nearly as good. Plus is completion percentage is under 48%, placing just about at the bottom of the league despite having less attempts than almost all quarterbacks.

      There’s a reason his own GM (who knows a little something about quality QB play), won’t commit to him as a starter despite a winning record.

      Thank you for the grammar lesson by the way. Please allow me to reciprocate and point out that the shift button allows for capitalization.

      • Douche

        Stats better than Elway at this point in his career. Well his team is winning and John’s didn’t.

        • Revyloution

          I don’t follow football that closely. Could anyone simplify this for me? Just tell me how many baskets Tebow makes in an average game. Or is it home runs?

          • Bill

            Revy – Here’s the simplified version. Tebow is statistically not good, but his team keeps winning. In addition to actual bad stats when compared to his peers, every QB expert I have seen and read says that his mechanics are awful, which is a very good indicator that he will not have long term success. Despite these realities, there are a fair number of people convinced he is good and a large part of the reason Denver is winning.

            Oh – and he averages 6 baskets a game.

  • drgoode

    Tillman was a football player, real life badass, and he was also gung-ho dumb.

    Tebow is just a football player who was about 14 on 9/11.

  • u

    I agree, arguing about this meme is pointless

    Tillman was an American hero who spoke out against our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan and paid the price for it.

    • Custador

      It’s a meme now?! And it only took me twenty seconds to make!

      • http://fugodeus.com Nox

        Twenty seconds is all it takes to release a meme. The meme called Pascal’s Wager (which celebrates it’s 350th anniversary next August, and was in use as recently as this morning) was created by accident after it’s creator was already dead.

  • John

    So? Mind your damn business. Its not like he’s shoving religion down everyone’s throat…. that would be the national media. Meanwhile, you are trying to shovel atheism down everyone else’s throat. Not sure why you would waste your time comparing apples to oranges or even caring about this kinda stuff. Something to bitch about I guess.

    • TheoryofI

      Shoving atheism down your throat??? You found your way to this site. If you don’t like what you see/read, go back to your base where proselytizing is practiced with fanatical zeal and where heretics like us are damned but never allowed to speak — for your own protection of course.

    • joy

      good points I supposed that you may have noticed the people that are downing him for praying probably don’t know enough about the scripture claiming he’s a hypocrite to understand he is setting an example P.S. his role model calls him to be salt and light to a bland dark world. And my guess is he is doing that to the best of his ability he knows he is not perfect, but he is trying.

  • David

    I don’t know the whole story on his death, but I will offer some analysis on military rifles. The M16/M4 line of rifles come with three safety positions, safe, semi and 3 round burst (or fully automatic on the M4A1)-as mentioned by another comment. Another common squad level weapon is the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW). It is a fully automatic belt-fed light machine gun. All these weapons fire the 5.56mm NATO cartridge. Unless you are REALLY (probably 5 meters or less) close range with an M16/M4, you are not going to put 3 rounds in that tight of a group when firing on burst. This is more feasible with the SAW if you were shooting from the prone position, bipod supported. If what Dallashyland said is true, that it was from a moving vehicle, then I have never in my life met anyone who could even come close to that. In fact, giving my extensive experience, I will go ahead and say it’s impossible.

    Source (me): former Marine, 0311/infantry rifleman. Qualified expert 3 consecutive times with M16/M4 and was also a SAW gunner for over a year.

  • TheoryofI

    Blind patriotism is about on par with blind faith, but it might be interesting to see the level of public outrage displayed if a national sports figure made an exaggerated public display of the < fish during a game. Woohoo!

    • TheoryofI

      Hmmm… That was supposed to print as EVOLVE fish. HTTP censorship?

    • UrsaMinor

      My guess? I’ll bet the howling would be awesome, and he’d be accused of grandstanding and trying to shove his beliefs down everybody else’s throat, proselytizing in an inappropriate venue, and told to confine it to his private life.

      The last thing I would expect would be widespread public support for his right to express his beliefs in this way.

      • TheoryofI

        Agreed. There would be a lot of fans crying foul, and the religionists would have a field day with it. Might even become a political football? Hypocrisy is the name of the game.

  • Jay

    Is the point here that religious people are smarter? Not a Tebow fan, but well-played, I guess.

  • David

    This is a stupid post because it totally ignores the charitable, good work that Tebow has done. This paints him as if he’s someone who doesn’t do what his faith tells him to do (giving back, helping others) and that’s just not the case.

  • Roddg

    Hmm. I’m not a Tebow fan by any means (I think he’s a twit), even though I do live in Colorado. Don’t watch much football, though. Given that, I don’t think it’s fair to say one is more patriotic than the other. Few, in any profession, would have done what Pat Tillman did, so I don’t think comparisons of this nature are helpful.

    • TrickQuestion

      On the contrary. I think that comparing an outstanding, self-sacrificing, extraordinary individual who gave up what most people would consider a pretty sweet job running a ball from point A to point B to go fight to a pompous self aggrandizing pandering fella that does get said ball from A to b, and thanks his awmity gawd for doing it (just to make people think that hey, jebus is looking out for out win record) is pretty apt.

    • joy

      True it is trying to compare apples vs. oranges and you just can’t get a acurate comparison

  • hank

    teabow is not worthy to have his picture next to tillman

  • Jake

    Tebow believes in something that gives him strength as an athlete and as a man. By breaking down in prayer for the blessing he feels his God bestowed on him when he scores a touchdown he is displaying his faith to a NATIONAL tv audience which is something encouraged in his religion. I would NEVER take anything away from a serviceman who gave his life for our great nation but if Pat Tillman really was an atheist (I have never heard this before) then he died fighting a war that I frequently hear atheists calling a “holy war” and describing as just a worthless loss of life because of religion (the Muslim middle east vs the Christian west). Why do atheists feel the need to take things that individuals people feel proud of away from them? Both of these men thought that what they were doing/are doing with their lives is valuable and I think that any rational person should see that and just leave them both alone to do with their lives as they see fit. Welcome to America people. That’s what this whole place is all about…

    • Nzo

      We aren’t allowed, in this country, to mock the NFL’s Poster Child for Creationist Stupidity/Hypocrisy?

      Does your entire post smack of hypocrisy?

      Yes… yes it does.

      • Len

        … he is displaying his faith to a NATIONAL tv audience which is something encouraged in his religion.

        Maybe a poe. After all, from this quote, his religion would appear to be religiotard – certainly not Christian.

      • Jake

        You have some issues with not being right all the time don’t you? You’re one of those people who always has the answer to everything and other people don’t have the same opinions as you because they aren’t as smart/informed/insightful as you, right? Wrong. The problem isn’t the fact that organized religion exists in the world, it’s that people like you just can’t let people believe what they want to believe or what makes them happy. Because of that they must justify their beliefs to you, you them they’re wrong, and that understandably makes them angry. If people like you (and sadly there are A LOT of you) would just live and let live things could be sooo much better. But that’s probably too much to ask for isn’t it?

        • Sunny Day

          “You have some issues with ”

          Work at a movie theater much?

          “Because of that they must justify their beliefs to you,”

          When people try to make others live according religious beliefs, yeah you have to justify them.

          “If people like you would just live and let live…”

          We didn’t make you come here. You could always decide to start living the standard that you would have others follow.
          But that’s probably too much to ask for isn’t it?

        • Nzo

          You have some issues with not being right all the time don’t you?

          Doesn’t happen often enough. Sometimes I actually wonder if I’m just completely insane, because it’s statistically improbable to be right as often as I am. Fortunately I have a system of checks and balances that assures me that either A) I’m not insane, or B) Everyone else is insane too.

          You’re one of those people who always has the answer to everything and other people don’t have the same opinions as you because they aren’t as smart/informed/insightful as you, right?

          Yep

          Wrong.

          Nope

          The problem isn’t the fact that organized religion exists in the world, it’s that people like you just can’t let people believe what they want to believe or what makes them happy.

          Straw-manned false dichotomy.

          The problem is that organized religion (well, yours at least) is responsible for more deaths, more injustice, more hatred, more rape, more assault, and more slavery than any one thing in the history of mankind. Oh, and you’re also part of the problem, because you create a platform for the craziest of the crazies to continually express their hatred towards those not like them. Why do I blame you for their behavior? Because you, and those like you, would vote for a racist, homophobic hatemonger for the simple fact that he calls himself a ‘christian’.

          Because of that they must justify their beliefs to you, you them they’re wrong, and that understandably makes them angry.

          Why does it make them angry to be wrong? Why does it make anyone angry to be wrong? You’d be surprised how happy I’d be to be shown, in graphic detail, how wrong I am. The telltale sign of the weak-minded is whether or not they get angry about being wrong. These people are born-and-bred cattle for the churches/pastors that milk them.

          If people like you (and sadly there are A LOT of you) would just live and let live things could be sooo much better.

          You clowns really have got to stop saying this. I’m so tired of responding to this lately. You don’t get to play the martyr card to the people that are actually being persecuted.

          Case in point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrMho4pE7A&feature=g-all

          But that’s probably too much to ask for isn’t it?

          Leave the snark to those that can pull it off. Your delivery is just a pathetic ending to an even more pathetic post.

          • Jake

            I never said I believe in god buddy. In fact i said right in there that i dont agree with tebows beliefs. youre just so eager for a fight with a theist you found one in a place where it doesnt exist. i do like your supporting evidence though. from an atheist point of view its very compelling. however, youre preaching to the choir (excuse the churchy euphemism :P) Im just a fan of anyone today who can stand up for something they believe in. thats all…

            • Nzo

              For not being a fundie, you sure post like one. I’m sure you can see why I went ahead and assumed this… if you can’t read a few more of the threads around here.

              If standing up for what you believe in, no matter what it is, is admirable to you, then I’d really like to know what you think about the KKK, NAMBLA, MADD, SOPA, PETA, and any other cause that is socially unacceptable, and anathema to most, but staunchly supported by its members?

            • Nzo

              **edit:

              ‘…if you can’t, read a few more…’

              (added a comma for clarification)

    • Custador

      “By breaking down in prayer for the blessing he feels his God bestowed on him when he scores a touchdown he is displaying his faith to a NATIONAL tv audience which is something encouraged in his religion. “

      But it isn’t encouraged by the words of Jesus, who (according to the Bible) explicitly said that prayer should be private and without an audience, and that public displays of piety were not acceptable.

      • UrsaMinor

        This point has been raised repeatedly by atheists on this thread, and ignored repeatedly by Tebow’s defenders. Not one of them will acknowledge that Tebow is flouting a very clear and unambiguous Biblical instruction.

        • Custador

          Of course not. American Christianity is all about the Pew Cred – Who can be the loudest, most pious, most publicly devout. It looks more and more like a fringe cult every day.

      • Jake

        How is an athlete like Tebow supposed to control where the cameras are pointed during his private moments of prayer either in the back of the endzones or on the sidelines? He’s is doing his best to spread the word of God using his fame. You never see the man praying during a press conference or during an interview. He never involves other teammates in his celebratory prayers. He attempts to find his moments of privacy and cameras just happen to capture it. It isn’t a grab for attention, he just feels the need to do it and he does. I may not believe the same things he does, but he stands up for his beliefs in public and I applaud him for it.

        • TrickQuestion

          You know what..you’re right.
          I think i’ll go to a national televised event, where i am one of the performers, and be completely unaware that cameras are going to be on me at every given moment.
          You realize “He’s is doing his best to spread the word of God using his fame” and “He attempts to find his moments of privacy and cameras just happen to capture it. ” are contradictory statements, right?

          • Jake

            not even close. his acts of prayer in the open are solitary moments for him that get caught on camera. when he gets into a postgame interview (like the one he gave after the Bears game yesterday) and “thanks his lord and savior jesus christ”, THAT is spreading his religion via fame, but it is certainly not an example of prayer.

            • TrickQuestion

              So, giving thanks to “the lord” is not prayer…
              could have sworn any talking to “the lord” is prayer.

        • Custador

          You applaud him for doing something which Jesus explicitly instructed Christians not to do?

          Is any Christian actually going to address this point? I’m getting kind of bored of pointing it out.

          • timothy mark

            In your zeal you miss the context of Christ’s meaning and teachings. True, in the gospels his example of isolated prayer are listed numerous times. For those desirous, he was demonstrating the need to practice a continuous, and prayerful private relation with God. This in turn provides solid foundation which would be reflected daily by proper words and deeds. What he is saying in Mathew: Do not be like the hypocrites! The reward they seek has in fact been achieved. For all they desire is recognition and to be considered righteous for their personal glory. He is saying these individuals, lacking a personal prayer relationship, are missing the point. Practicing or acting out prayer solely in public will not create the relationship one desire with God. It does not preclude public prayer or praise and affection for God if one truly has that private relationship . As I said previously, in teaching how to pray he used the words our, we and us, not my, me and I. Finally Jesus’ final words on the cross to God were made in public.

    • joy

      sure you can believe your religion is right and I am sure they are both proud that this is raising questions and publisityfor their individual causes and don’t get me wrong I think there can be some moral atheists but how if they do not want anything to do with the bible how do they know right from wrong. What is there compass for right and wrong. The christian has a guide to what is wrong from the person that created all things. How many people do you know that do not carry religion to far to one extreme or another are going out and deliberately trying to break the laws of the land. The Christians I know have ballence to everyone and everything they are showing in love the right way to do things there are people who carry the name but they do not honnor the name. They distroy property of abortion clinics instead of giving the young women options like addoption. Then there is the other extreme that don’t have the gumption to speak out for what they believe. I am a firm believer that the best lies in the middle.

  • hemingway

    this is the most exploitative use of pat tillman i’ve ever seen. tim tebow, a young quarterback, has nothing to do with pat tillman. what a bunch of shit.

    • Nzo

      Exploitative? Do explain, instead of, you know, whining like a b*tch about an unsubstantiated claim.

    • http://fugodeus.com Nox

      It’s a contrast between the situations of the two men and how they handled them. It’s not like anyone is suggesting they ever played on the same team.

  • Tom Vincent

    Why aren’t people disgusted that he gets paid millions for playing a damned game while teachers, firefighters and police are getting wage and benefit cuts?

    While thousands lose their homes so that millionaires can get richer?

    While bank robbers get 10 years in prison for stealing thousands and bank owners get 10 vacation homes for stealing billions?

    • Custador

      Uh… If I had to guess I’d say that when people actually think about it, a lot of them probably are disgusted about that. But, the thing is, that’s got nothing to do with what we’re discussing at the moment. So nobody’s brought it up. Speaking as somewhat of an expert in the noble art of the thread-derailing rant, even I thought that one was a bit odd :-/

  • joy

    As to your coment why wont anyone address the issue that he is doing something that christ told him “not to do”. You might want to read it in context so many things can be twisted with just an assumed word here and there or just not taking into consideration for when he uses a exageration of being sarcastic to prove his point. You also need to understand the customs of the day. It’s very different. Do you remember when being “gay” meant something totally diferent from what it means in todays society? The priests of the day had this attitude that they knew everything about the law. However when they came to trap Jesus he outsmarted them every time with their own words ussually. They were trying to live the law, but were missing the point of what God was trying to show them. It’s not about what you do it is the matter of the heart that counts;.

    • Custador

      I have, which is why I know you haven’t. Christians – Failing to read their own holy book since 100 CE

    • http://fugodeus.com Nox

      “Out of context” tends to suggest that the context is one that changes the statement. Since the context is the sermon on the mount, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to say anyone tricked Jesus into saying it.

      The clear point of the statement in or out of context is the same. People who make a display of their faith are not doing it for the benefit of god but for themselves.

      • timothy mark

        Exactly! God doesn’t need the praise or worship to feel good about himself, herself or itself it is used to remind those who believe of His glorious blessings.

      • trj

        Apologist’s rule of thumb: If I disagree with your interpretation in any way then you’re reading things out of context.

        • timothy mark

          Christians argue with Christians concerning context no reason Free Thinkers should not be afforded the same respect.


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