Judaism vs Christianity vs Islam

This is clever, and most religions are similar… yet they’re all different enough that they’ll kill each other over them.

  • https://twitter.com/AtheistJohnny Johnny

    Although I see the pattern being attempted in the picture, I don’t think most Christians would agree with the Christian description of Jesus. Mainly because it doesn’t include their belief that he was the son of Jehovah.

    • http://themikewrites.blogspot.com JohnMWhite

      Agreed. Also, considering these are the Abrahamic religions, it stands to reason they will largely have the same basis and just diverged somewhere along the line. I don’t see how pointing out that Abrahamic religions are similar but still prone to violence amongst one another is “clever”.

    • http://www.virtue-quest.com/ Robert King

      Also, “Jehovah” is an archaic usage (at best), essentially a mistaken transliteration of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton (Four Letters, the Name of God). Christians tend to use “Yahweh” these days. Serious Jews do not speak or write the Name of God, often spelling it “G-d” or using “Adonai” which translates to “The Lord”.

      So yes, the point is well taken that the differences are apparently minor; but this chart is simply wrong on a factual level, so it undercuts its own point.

      • KD

        Also just to clarify Allah is not the name of god, it just means the lord in arabic. Arab christians use it too.

    • Reginald Selkirk

      It sounds like the Arianist heresy, or perhaps Psilanthropism.

    • Sara S.

      depends on what type of Christian your discussing. For some, its another name for God. For others, its a entirely separate God.

  • Joe

    Could keep on going, add the Latter Day Saints into the mix !

  • Revyloution

    Should have the Baha’i faith as the 4th column.

    • DMG

      I was thinking that. “Let’s add one more prophet, that’ll fix everything!” ;)

  • Alan

    While there are no doubt significant similarities – this caricature misstates the religions’ views to force the appearance of them. For example, the christian trinity is more different than just mixed up transliteration of the name from the jewish god. Jesus is the son of god for christians but not for muslims. Jews don’t believe that the teachings of lot or arbraham for that matter are the word of god (can’t speak to the other religions but I don’t think islam would say that either). And it goes on.

  • vasaroti

    Not crazy about this, but just like the previous cartoon, I am glad that somebody out there is thinking about the inherent problems with all religions.

  • Chuck

    If I may make a suggestion, go read ‘The Faith Instinct’ by Nicholas Wade. He does a good job explaining how we are ‘wired’ for religion and why. It is in our genetic makeup.

  • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

    Okay, hang on here….time for yet another “Judaism is…” debunking.

    When exactly has Judaism been going around killing others over their own faith? I’m sorry, but I don’t remember the last time after the last, say, two thousand years or more, that this has actually happened. Aside from the myths of the bible – of which we know the majority are actually *not true* and recognize this as atheists, might I add – when exactly has Judaism been going around “conquering” other people to convert them to their faith? In fact, even in the bible, this is not something Jews did. And they also did not simply kill people for being of a different faith. Not that Judaism is any more “correct” than any other made up mythology, but there are some things that some religions do and other religions don’t. Judaism makes no mention of needing to kill people because they “don’t believe” (as far as I know). All the people that the ancient Hebrews actually killed were killed for various other reasons (conquest of land – not a very religious reason, booty, etc…..). And, as we know full well, most of those stories aren’t even true. It’s something we often rant about as atheists, remember? Suddenly, we’re taking these claims to be true because it serves our purpose? I don’t think so.

    Jews don’t go around trying to convert people, by the sword, by persuasion, or any other way. Now, if you ask me (living here in Israel as I do), the ultra-Orthodox should be kicked out of the country or forced to serve and pay taxes. But even, as *bad* as they are, and as *idiotic*, *insane*, and *insulting* as they are, do *not* go around trying to convert non-Jews. It’s against their entire law.

    So while you can blame Judaism for a heck of a lot of insanity and idiocy in religion, you *cannot* blame them for the same wars and motivations of Christianity and Islam. It’s not even in the same frigging ball park, ok? The war with the Arabs has *nothing* to do with trying to convert them from Islam to Judaism. It has everything to do with many other factors (and all of it debatable if you want), but it is *not* because Israelis see Arabs as some sort of heretics – which, I might add, Christians and Muslims see everyone else as. So please, if you’re going to accuse Judaism of things, and you have every right to do so, please at least make it an educated accusation. Don’t lump it into everything else because it not only doesn’t fit, historically speaking, but it also doesn’t make any bloody sense.

    • Bill

      “When exactly has Judaism been going around killing others over their own faith? ”

      Some people on the West Bank would like a word with you.

      • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

        I already addressed this: it’s not because they’re non-Jews. If you think that Jews are going around killing Palestinians because they’re non-Jews, you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

        • Kodie

          The graphic doesn’t apparently distinguish why the Jews are killing anyone. Where does it say “to convert them” that you are trying to correct the impression?

          • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

            Judaism doesn’t say to go around killing non-Jews. It almost all cases, it doesn’t even address or acknowledge non-Jews. It has almost nothing to say about them. That graphic isn’t why Jews are fighting Palestinians. Israelis, by and large, are not fighting a religious war on their side. If you don’t believe me, look up the percentage of atheists and agnostics in this country and then remember that religious Jews don’t serve in the military (which is one reason they are absolutely hated here). Also: many of the religious Jews are against the state of Israel for religious reasons. You can’t blame Jews for being in a religious war when the most religious of them refuse to accept the state of Israel on religious grounds. This country was founded by mostly atheist communists. I know that isn’t something they teach in school but it’s the bloody truth, and I’m sick and tired of hearing how Israel was started by wild-eyed religious maniacs when it’s absolutely not true. The first Prime Minister of Israel was an atheist and a communist, or socialist at the least. This is a very liberal society and one, I might add, that is completely fed up with the religious people in it.

        • Kodie

          If the Palestinians were Jewish, the Jews wouldn’t be killing them.

          • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

            If the Palestinians were Jewish, they wouldn’t have had a war with the Jews.

            • Kodie

              If the Palestinians were Jewish, they wouldn’t have lived there this whole time.

          • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

            Do you even know what “Palestinian” meant before 1948? To everyone – including the Arabs, Turks, Muslims of the region. Do you have any idea?

    • UrsaMinor

      Have you ever read the Torah, or even the Old Testament translations of it? In it, God commands the Jews to kill specific groups of non-Jews.

      • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

        I’ve not only read it, I’ve read it in Hebrew. And I already addressed this as well: we already *know* that almost all of those claims of conquering other people are made up stories – they’re *not* real. We, as atheists, acknowledge this. It’s part of why we think the bible is bullshit: because much of it is made up. The archaeological evidence is contrary to the claims. Therefore, how can you condemn Judaism for simply making the claim, but actually never carrying it out? I can condemn it on a whole lot of other things (Leviticus, for one), but I can’t really say that it was wrong to wipe out such and such groups of people when they actually never really did it. Can I?

        • Kodie

          Read a newspaper?

          • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

            I read the newspapers every day. What’s your point?

            • Kodie

              Connect the fucking dots!

        • Kodie

          You make so little sense. Ok, the bible is fiction. Based on what? Based on a peaceful time and a peaceful people who never met any trouble, weren’t driven from their land, and currently fighting and killing people for the right to occupy that land by driving out the people who had occupied it in the meantime? Because it never happened, and therefore nobody believes it happened, and aren’t actually using that rationale to kill people who don’t want to move, and have no right to be there, because… they aren’t Jews.

          • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

            If that’s what you “know” about the actual history based on real archeology of this land, then you really are an ignoramus.

            That’s what pisses me off sometimes about this movement. I have absolutely no problem criticizing things for being made up and for there being zero evidence for a god of any kind in the universe. But I really do have a problem with people who arrive at all sorts of stupid and uneducated conclusions based on propaganda and complete ignorance simply because it fits their original deduction that there is no god.

            • Kodie

              Seriously? You think the invalidation of the Torah by your sources has any bearing on observable, current-day war and the reasons people keep fighting them?

              Hint: the Torah is still true if you believe it.

          • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

            You think Israel was founded by religious Jews and that they chose Israel because they were religious Jews? That’s what it sounds like you’re saying. You think that’s the reason the modern state of Israel exists? You think that’s why they are fighting Palestinians? Is that what you’re saying?

            • Kodie

              Yeah, because god promised them their land and they never forgot that, essentially. What’s another reason to be obsessed with occupying a country where you never lived and then killing the people who live there? Persistent cultural identity and failure to assimilate*? Let’s provide your sources and go on with how stupid you think I am.

              *Greed, arrogance, racism, imperialism… divine rights?

        • UrsaMinor

          It appears to me that Judaism has no specific scriptural mandate to convert or kill non-Jews- but the descriptions of the practice of genocide, whether they represent real historical events or not, is clearly approved by God. Most of the instances seem to me to be for the purpose of clearing the land of its non-Jewish occupants so that the Jews may occupy it. The battle lines are clearly drawn by ethnicity and cultural identity. It’s pretty hard to separate religion from that mix.

          • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

            The question is: Did they actually do that? We know that they didn’t. These are myths. You’re conflating myths with historical events. From what we know, none of that actually occurred. It’s made up. It isn’t until around 700 BCE that the “history” starts to play out from the biblical perspective, and even that is dubious at the start. Yes, there was a King David, and no he wasn’t a huge builder or slayer or anything of the kind. The claims that he conquered nations of people is complete hogwash. The Egyptians killed more people setting up one guard post than the “ancient Israelites” did during King David’s time. And we don’t go around condemning the ancient Egyptians for genocide, do we? No, we don’t. Everyone in the region had an “Us vs. Them” mentality. You think the Assyrians were basking in the philosophy of the Enlightenment? Or the Babylonians or Egyptians or even the Phoenicians? They all had their myths of conquest. That doesn’t distinguish one from the other at *all* in this case. And yet, we somehow treat Judaism as if it’s different from them?

            Why? Because it’s still around? Guess what: most Jews aren’t religious. Ever read the studies done on this? You think Jews actually give a damn about commandments for the most part? Judaism is an ethnicity and culture for the most part. The idiots that make it into a religion at this point are an extreme minority. If you’re going to start making claims about Judaism, you’re going to have to learn what’s what and the historicity of it. You can’t put Judaism in the same basket as Christianity and Islam, and you can’t put those in the same basket as Hinduism or Buddhism. They’re all different. Stop treating them as if they’re the same. I don’t see anyone bitching about how Hinduism is teaching Hindus to kill Muslims because they’re different and, hence, have to be destroyed – and yet, there’s a war with Muslims and Hindus that is *far* older than the war with Muslims and Jews. And, quite frankly when you get down to it, it’s a war for the same reason: land, rights, and history. It has nothing to do with Hindus trying to convert Muslims or kill them because they’re “different” (and believe me, the Gitas are full of violence – I’ve read them as well).

            But somehow, I missed the whole “Hindus preach that they’re different so they’re killing Muslims because of it” spiel. Now, *why* is that? Can you tell me? Can you let me fucking know because, in case you missed it, there’s a terrorism “war” going on against India as well. But for some reason, people let that slide and think that Jews are somehow not in the same category and deserve some of that blame when it comes to their war.

            Guess what that is? It’s fucking anti-semitism. And it’s based on absolute lies and ignorance. That’s why I oppose graphics like this: because they’re ignorant bullshit. And it’s that kind of ignorant bullshit that people like Kodie appear to be buying into. Well, I’m sorry, but I’m not having any of it. That graphic is as ignorant as a stupid motto like “No Blood for Oil” and it says absolutely nothing about the intricacies of the situation, the historicity of the struggle, or the other, FAR bigger, factors involved outside of religion. Until 1947, nobody, and I mean *nobody*, thought that Jews were anything except something trodden on by history since two thousand fucking years. Ever since 1947, it’s become fashionable to think of them as some sort of grandiose oppressor?

            Give me a fucking break.

            • Kodie

              I live in a neighborhood where a visible population of Orthodox Jews live. Out my window is one of the 3 temples within a half-mile radius (that I know of). You want to claim that nobody is religious, that this war has nothing to do with religious beliefs? Speak to the banners on the temples, and the scarf-covered young women with 5 or more kids in a row (so far), the females of which all wear skirts that cover their knees and the boys in black suits with their tzitzis and yarmulkes and those hats I don’t know what they are called, big black hats. And beards. Walking all over the sidewalk with their big families because they can’t drive to temple, or press the button that changes the stoplight to red so they can cross the street.

              Now, none of them ever seems to have killed anyone because I don’t live in the Middle East. Maybe they just came from there; maybe they are going back. Even when a mosque was built on an abandoned lot a block from here, seems to be pretty peaceful. I know they know how to get along, if not particularly friendly, then not antagonistically. I don’t see as many Muslims because I think the ones at this mosque are rather liberal, wear common dress, except for head covering if they are female. Just saying they don’t stick out, so I don’t know where they go home to. But they all make it work.

            • UrsaMinor

              That’s quite a rant in response to “whether they represent real historical events or not”. And it misses my point that such behavior is, if not officially sanctioned, at least given a solid pass in scripture. Whether the events described happened or not.

            • Kodie

              It’s a simple (simplistic?) chart with 3 Abrahamic major religions and ONE favorite region to fight over.

              Hindus vs. Muslims is a different cartoon. Maybe if you draw one and post it to reddit, it will show up here.

  • C Tran

    Why are there no pictures in the Muslim column?

    • Kodie

      Think it through.

    • UrsaMinor

      First guess? The depiction of human likenesses in art is forbidden in Islam, so someone is being careful not to arise Muslim ire.

  • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

    This is exactly what I mean by ignorant:

    “Yeah, because god promised them their land and they never forgot that, essentially. What’s another reason to be obsessed with occupying a country where you never lived and then killing the people who live there?”

    I don’t even have to refute that. Any historical source will have documentation that Jews have lived there since before the Roman occupation, and even after the fall of the Temple in 70 AD down through the two thousand years since. Jews have had a continual presence on this land since before the Arabs ever got here. To claim that Jews don’t belong here is like saying that Hindus don’t belong in India. It’s complete and utter nonsense.

    • Elemenope

      Jews have had a continual presence on this land since before the Arabs ever got here.

      Who was there before the Jews?

      Who was there before the people who were there before the Jews?

      Who was there before the people who were there before the people who were there before the Jews?

      The fact of the matter is, that land has been occupied by Jews and non-Jews for several centuries. Is there probably a slightly more aggrieved party than all the other aggrieved parties over this piece of land? Perhaps. Can we figure out who it is today? Not likely. In light of that, all the claims of priority are silly. It’s a piece of land. ‘Share or die’ seems to be the reality. Take from that, or not, what you will.

      • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

        Again: Are you not aware of the history of partition? You say “Share or die”. Exactly what do you know about partition? There was one side who wanted to share, and said they would. And then the other side went and tried to gun them down for it and attempt real genocide – not made up mythical genocide.

        Or have you never actually read that history?

        • Elemenope

          Quite a bit, having studied it at length as part of formal schooling and elsewise (and one of my former professors was an expert in the field). Your simplifications of the same (especially in your almost laughable heaping of blame onto one side alone) forces me to assume that you either don’t have a good grip on the details or that your agenda has clouded your ability to put facts in context.

          There were plenty of missed opportunities on both sides. I’m curious how you explain, for example, the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin if not in reaction to the Oslo accords? The bulldozing-and-settlement policies of the Netanyahu government? How, if all of its neighbors are so intent on its genocide, do you explain, for example, King Hussein of Jordan warning Prime Minister Meir of an impending surprise attack in ’73? Why, afterwards, if they were so intent on genocide, did the Egyptians sign on to a lasting peace with Israel?

          Your account is just too simplistic to match with real historical events.

    • Kodie

      You never really make a good case why Jews get a pass for killing people who aren’t Jews.

  • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

    Seriously Kodie, this is the most incredibly ignorant comment I’ve seen from you yet. Do you have any idea, *ANY* idea about the founding of the state of Israel? You appear to be reciting absolute propaganda from Islamists.

    I asked you this before: You think that Israel was founded by religious Jews for religious principles? Really? Is that what you think? Please let me know how deeply your ignorance goes.

    The person who came up with the entire *concept* of Zionism was an avowed atheist. Theodore Herzl. He not only didn’t believe in god, he didn’t like religious Jews. Israel’s first Prime Minister, Menachim Begin, was an atheist. Have you read Chaim Potok’s novel “The Chosen”? If you had, you wouldn’t ever say that Israel was founded on religious principles or ideals. The religious were against the foundation of the state because it represented blasphemy against the Torah. They still oppose it. Rabin was a non-religious Jew. Peres is a non-religious Jew. Barak is a non-religious Jew. The people in command of the entire military are non-religious Jews. The people who did most of the fighting in 1947 and 1947, ’56, ’67 and ’73 were non religious Jews, agnostics, or atheists for the most part. The people who founded the Kibbutzes were atheist communists who rejected religion completely, rejected the family unit, and even rejected all personal ownership of anything at all. They were from the left. The state of Israel was founded by the left, the atheists, the communists, the secularists, and the intellectuals. The people who supported the foundation of the state of Israel were people like Albert Einstein – a non religious Jew.

    And now you’re going to turn that entire history around because it suits your purposes to “blame the Jews” and say that it was religious genocidal mania which spurred all of this on?

    Yes, you really, truly, are ignorant on a colossal and historical scale.

    • Kodie

      You’re the one who is trying to elevate Jews above all this killing. I’m not saying the Palestinians have clean hands, but they also have the right to live there.

      • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

        No, I’m not. You’re trying to say that Jews were motivated by religion in this fight, and they weren’t. And you can’t admit that, and you can’t admit that historically speaking, Israel is a result of people rejecting god, rejecting religion, and rejecting everything that you think they haven’t rejected. You’re trying to equate the state of Israel with a religiously genocidal view from the bronze age which has never actually been real or significant in any way, and you’re trying to make it a political issue because you think that Israel is there because of religious ideals. I don’t even have to mention the Palestinians for you to be wrong on this point. That isn’t the issue. The issue is whether or not Judaism actually goes around conquering people for religious convictions in the real world, and the fact is that it doesn’t. That line at the top of the graphic saying that they’re killing each other because of the differences of religion is exactly what I said it was: bullshit. That is not why Jews are fighting, and outside of the stories of the old testament, which we *know* didn’t really happen for the most part, that never was actually the case. It *is* different from Christianity and Islam, and it *isn’t* right to lump them in with the others. They are guilty of being nonsensical with their deity, but they are *not* guilty of trying to force others to be as ludicrous as they are. They are *not* interested, by and large, what other religions think or believe, unlike Christianity and Islam. And I’m right to get fed up and pissed off when people who know absolutely nothing about the specifics start to spout off as if they actually do know something.

        If anything, it was *our* movement – the atheist, leftist, secularist, socialist global movement – which created the state of Israel. You better frigging own up to that history and realize that they had good reasons that weren’t religious to actually found this state. I never said that Palestinians don’t have the right to be here too, and by the way, neither has the state of Israel ever said that either. I did mention partition and the official declaration in 1947 accepted partition – it was the Arabs in general who did not. And the evidence for that is the one million Arabs living in Israel today, as Israeli citizens, who chose to stay on the Jewish side of the partition and accept partition as well. They weren’t kicked out of their homes. They’re still here.

        • Kodie

          1. They are killing non-Jews.

          The graphic doesn’t apparently distinguish why the Jews are killing anyone. Where does it say “to convert them” that you are trying to correct the impression?

          • Kodie

            You never really make a good case why Jews get a pass for killing people who aren’t Jews.

            • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

              Who said I’m giving them a pass?

              All I said was that the motivations ascribed to them by that line above the graphic are false.

          • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

            “This is clever, and most religions are similar… yet they’re all different enough that they’ll kill each other over them.”

            Once again: the Jews aren’t killing others over the religious differences or sentiments.

            • Kodie

              Ok, ok, ok. Apparently you’re unfamiliar with Daniel’s casual system of posting things he likes from reddit (or so I’ve heard).

          • Kodie

            I didn’t mean for that comment to be bolded or emphasized other than repeating a question I’d already asked.

    • Elemenope

      Zionism had both secular and religious forebears. Some extremely conservative Haredim consider(ed) the modern state of Israel to be an abomination, but their opinion is a minority amongst most Jews of all theological flavors. The first Aliyah was predominantly composed of religious immigrants, while the second wave was more secular. The Kibbutz movement was leftist, but was not predominantly secular until fairly late in its history. At that late point in its history, the Kibbutz had already ceased to be a major driving force in Israeli society; they had always been demographically marginal, but they ceased also to have much social capital going forward.

      The State of Israel has always, since 1948 officially so, considered itself a ‘Jewish and Democratic State’. It has official state Rabbis (one for the Sephardim and one for the Ashkenazim), and has some Halachic laws written pretty firmly into social regulation, especially those dealing with kashrut and keeping the Sabbath. One of the most important demographic tales from the 1970′s until now has been the rise, population-wise, of a much more conservative religious community inside the wider society, which has led to parallel religious school systems (many of which are directly funded by the government), religious judicial courts, and other civil structures.

      Try to lay off the accusations of ignorance when you play this fast and loose with the facts, ok?

      • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

        1) No, most of the haredim don’t actually recognize the state of Israel and refuse to serve.

        2) Ben Gurion and the people around him were by and large secularists. It was one of his biggest mistakes to acquiesce to the religious and give them exemptions, but it did not make him or his intentions religious in any way whatsoever.

        3) The vast majority of leaders of the Israeli state have been secular/atheist since the foundation. The most prominent political party until the last couple of decades was on the left, not on the right.

        4) If you read Ben Gurion’s book, you will know what he meant by “Jewish and Democratic State”. He wasn’t talking about religion at all. He was talking about ethnicity and culture. If you read that book, you will also know how he felt about the religious.

        5) Zionism was penned up by Theodore Herzl – an atheist, and not by a religious person.

        6) The kashrut laws concerned Jews, not people who *aren’t* Jews.

        7) The rise of the religious community is one that upsets me to no end, and hopefully the political situation will finally change so that they either have to put up or shut up. As fast as they are growing, however, they are *still* the minority. And just because they are a growing population does not mean that this is supposed to be a religious state. The rise of the fundamentalists in America is also a concern since the last few decades, and they would *like* to make America into a religious state, but that doesn’t mean that it is. I don’t hear anyone arguing that they have it right simply because of their numbers, and that they define the law for the same reason.

        And my original point still stands: the Israelis are not conquering or killing other people simply because of a religious difference. That is a complete fabrication. It may be true for the Hamas and Hezzbollah (even though they also have other reasons), but it is not true for Israel. Unlike the Hamas, Israel’s policy is not to “kill all infidels”.

        • Elemenope

          1. Simply not true. One, the Haredim are not exactly a unified movement, so any statement across the group is bound to be suspect, but beyond that while the Haredim tend to hold themselves apart culturally from secularized and “less orthodox” Jews, they happily participate in the political process of Israel, which is an implicit acknowledgment of the state. Agudat Yisrael is a good example of such a political party. Neteuri Karta is an outlier in that they do not recognize, and wish to dismantle, Israel as a secular state. They do not represent the majority of Haredim in this position.

          2. I never argued that they did, but while we’re on the subject, it’s pretty hard to read policies like enforcing the Sabbath and the intentional absence of civil marriages as anything but religious in nature. Ben-Gurion may not himself have been religious, but he was extremely friendly to policies that entrenched religious rules into the secular culture. He did so in large part to make alliance with the religious leaders already present in Eretz Yisrael; to call them insignificant while highlighting Ben-Gurion’s personal secular orientation is to cherry pick facts in service to a narrative, and not an accurate reflection of what occurred.

          3. The first part is undeniably true. The second part is irrelevant. Who said anything about left/right politics?

          4. I am well aware of what Ben-Gurion meant. I am also aware that the phrase has taken on quite a different complexion of meaning over its lifetime, as the changing internal circumstances of Israel have changed. Since Judaism as culture or ethnic identity is difficult to separate from Judaism as religion in the best of times and easiest of examples, I’m not entirely sure what you think this line of argument buys you. The only thing that has been said for sure is that the state will not tolerate parties or individulas who seek to overturn the state for a more explicitly Halachic one without democratic features. As I sad before, the state recognizes only religious marriages, maintains its own religious offices, runs religious schools, regulates religious courts, and includes explicitly religious political parties. That might not be what Ben-Gurion had in mind, but it is what the state is.

          5. Herzl is an interesting figure. I’m familiar with his secularism, and the influence of anti-religious thinkers on his thought regarding the Jewish state, such as Nietzsche. However, Herzl did not advocate for a separation of religion and state, but a loose union, as he knew well that the cultural and religious sentiments were not so easily separated. Interestingly, prior to the sudden and rather dramatic collapse of the Ottoman Empire following WWI, Herzl did not regard Palestine as the best place to create a distinctly Jewish state. He discussed Argentina, the United States, Ethiopia, and a few other locations. It was only after the death of the Ottoman Empire that settling in Palestine came to be considered a feasible permanent option.

          6. No kidding, hence their establishment in the civil law of Israel as an indication that it is a Jewish state.

          7. My argument about the nature of the State of Israel does not hinge upon the demographic increase in the Orthodox population, but it does certainly give some of these arguments a bit of immediacy. It was easier to leave things ambiguous when the schisms in the society were not aggravated by demographic pressures. Now, they are. In contrast, by most measures the religious in the US is a collapsing community, with large proportions of people aged thirty and under hemorrhaging from church membership and other indicators of religious observance.

          And my original point still stands: the Israelis are not conquering or killing other people simply because of a religious difference.

          Please explain the bulldoze-and-settle policies, if you would.

          • beryelectric

            @Elemenope…some of the most eloquently put descriptions of the modern Jewish state I have yet read.Just beautiful and directly to the point.But,Summer Seale does have a point also!

  • Bob Jase

    Neandertals were in Israel before any modern humans – I say we return the land to their descendents.

  • http://www.summerseale.com Summer Seale

    Much as I’d love to stay and argue, it’s 1am.

  • http://ysolutions.info yogev izhak

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    my son, is 3 month years old today, mixed color, mixed culture… israeli. why israeli? becouse
    here in israel we are jews that grouped here after long time that we lived in other countries and
    suffer from anti-semic hate (read history..) and we always kept our relegion and torah in mind.
    and this is what unite us together. as jews. like the french, italians, americans, russions, arabs, etc..

    as a personal, i cant call myself “relegion’ person, and most of the israelis are not relegion.
    i’m sure if it good or bad.. but this is fact.
    and we all live here in israel, to build a jews kingdom for freedom to all citizens, inside, and all
    over the world.

    our relegion dream is to build the holy temple for god, in the place that even today, as israelis
    who rule the place in jerusalam, our country dont let jews get inside and pray. the muslems and
    christians still rule the place. USA runing israel…. we are still trying to build the real ZION.

  • Ali

    first sorry for my weak English

    second I hope from the site managers to publish my comment

    Hello everybody I am a Muslim and I would like to say that the trick of the Israeli state is only in preparation for the arrival of the Antichrist who will ruin the earth by the New World Order and the regulations Islamic terrorist like al-Qaeda, which is a creation of the United States of America (I do not mean the people) to distort the image of Islam and the Arabs and to occupation of the Arab and Islamic countries such as Iraq under the pretext of terrorism and nuclear weapons while the rest of the moderate Muslims being killed in Syria and other places by these same terrorist groups, I am a moderate Muslim (and thanks for Allah) I have many Christian friends, and I deal with them very normally , my soscity is not like the Muslim Brotherhoods soscities … , I live very normally eating and drinking , and buy nice clothes from Aleppo and turkey and Latakia , and I spent time with my friends and I worship my God and do my duty when I supposed it,,, I feel miserable when I know that you look at me as a person who kills to live , I’m a very normal human being , I see a Christian person in the street and say Hello for him ,,.

    I want to put here some Quranic verses and and I hope from the site managers to publish my comment , ( you say that USA is the country of freedom , if this is true I should see my comment here )

    Allah almighty said : Verily! those who believe and those who are jews and christians, and Sabians,whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.