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Exactly. Worship whatever or whoever you want, just don’t use it as a weapon or try to force others to worship your fictional deity.
But it’s my Deeply Held Belief (TM) that I be allowed to throw the rock at you, for Stratigraphy 3:39 says “He who is not strucketh by thy rock is an abomination unto you, so you shall stoneth them until they die, or at least try to ruin their life, though this does not maketh thou a bigot”.
Yeah. The problem comes when said worshiped rock begins speaking to its devotees and commanding them to throw it at folks. Things like this have been known to happen.
No-one in the entire history of the English-speaking world ever said “He who is not strucketh” or “this does not maketh”. If you want to use archaisms, at least get them right.
Do you know where I can get one of those necklaces with a “T” on it?
You’ll have to ask David, there must be a specialty shop that sells Pedant’s.
No. Fuck you.
Hey, you’re just intolerant of my sincere belief that this is how archaic English worketh.
Doth not the phraseth “workest” more accurately fit? Eth.
Sé ne ys Englisc, Ye Olde or otherwise.
That is a fantastic statement to express how I feel when those super religious folks think that I should believe just as they do or be destined to eternal something—likely Damnation. :o) It is also a great statement to express how I feel when some politicians think this country is protected by some divine being, and that everyone believes it too. Nope! Their beliefs are fine for them—leave me out of it and keep it out of the public stage.
Why should we have to keep our thoughts out of the public stage? America was founded on free speech. That’s one of the few rights that makes this country better than the others. So when you’re trying to shut someone else up because you don’t like what they have to say, remember that censoring speech could mean at some point your speech could be sensored. Someone could tell you “you can’t say that.” Which reminds me of a quote that says: The most unamerican thing someone can say is “You can’t say that.” I don’t remember who origionally said it, but it’s true. While we Christians are not supposed to shove our point of view down others throats (unfortunately some do. ), shutting out our rights to speech, could also limit yours.
Nobody that I know here has a problem with religious people who say, in the public arena, “My religion considers X a sin, therefore I will not do X.” Most of them, however, have a problem with religious people who say “My religion considers X a sin, therefore I am going to enact legislation to make it illegal for anyone to do X”.
There’s a difference between “you can’t say that” and “you shouldn’t say that”.
There’s a difference between calling out something as rude as opposed to arguing for its abolition.
Nobody is saying that you shouldn’t have the right to be as big a jerk in public as you want to be, they’re just pointing out that it makes you a jerk and they’ll certainly feel free to call you on your jerkassitude. If you want to stand on the streetcorners and shout so that your piety may be marveled at by others, go for it. The knowledge that you can open your mouth at any available opportunity does not correlate with knowing when it is wise to, or whether what comes out of it is of any value to anyone else.
In this particular case, every time someone cries “oh noes, the free speech!!!!!” after they’ve been criticized is an excellent signpost for me for knowing that you know nothing about what the right to free speech actually is, how it functions, and what an actual violation of it might look like, and allows me to comfortably ignore pretty much everything else that follows if I want to (I usually don’t, just to be sure, but it’s comforting to know that I could and not risk missing anything valuable).
I have defended the Westboro Baptist Church’s right to free speech on these forums. I have argued against passing legislation to shut them up. I disagree vehemently with every bit of what they have to say. This is how free speech works.
This. Also, free speech exists in more countries than America.
Jane, there is the right to free speech and there is the problem of basing a law on someone’s idea of a religious concept—such as not allowing same gender couples to marry, or at one time, slavery being legal, or not allowing those of different races to marry, not allowing women to determine when or if to get pregnant etc. Those are laws based in large part of someone’s idea that their version of “morality” should be enforced into our private life, because of what is written in someone’s sacred text. Also the thought that every public meeting should start with a prayer—why? That assumes that all in the room believes as the person delivering the prayer. I’m old enough to have lived in the era of starting the day with a Christian prayer each morning in public school. I’m also old enough to believe that that being outlawed was fine and should have been done a long time before it was. If one wants prayer in school, there are plenty of RCC and other schools associated with a faith to have that done. However the 1950′s pushed a lot of stuff on us that shouldn’t have happened—such as adding “in God we trust” to the Pledge of Allegiance. Why? I was fine saying it as a child without it. Fortunately I don’t have to recite that part of the Pledge and don’t, but it really was fine without it. Just whose god would that be, and why is this country supposed to be under some divine being’s control? If a person wants to pray and pass out religious stuff on the street, OK. I can just walk past. Free speech is one thing and I’m for that. We have a great country, and free speech is part of the reason. We can disagree with the government, without threat of arrest (unless violence is advocated to change something we disagree with of course). I’m not against free speech at all.
A problem is that some think we all have to believe in something even if it is just a rock.
From Rick Cronk, President of the Boy Scouts of America, May 2006 in an interview
Q. Turing to God in the scout oath, does one have to believe in a Christian God to be a Boy Scout?
A. There must be hundreds of Gods out there. God in the oath referrs to a supreme being of some sort – it’s a moral or ethical or spiritual orientation. We don’t care if it’s Mohammad or Buddha or a rock in Japan.
We ask the kids to take the Scout oath and what they do on their own time is up to them.
Basically I’ve understood among most people (in my vicinity) that they don’t care what you believe in but that slot must be filled with something and cannot be empty. Atheism seems to be something most religions warn about, while in the US at least parts where I have lived are the “religious freedom” tolerance/diversity/”coexist” kinds of places. In other parts of the US where I haven’t lived, I am to understand there is more of an assumption of Christianity. Even in the Northeast, I think most white people if not in a heavily Jewish population, assume other white people are also Christians, and we are the majority, so even examples of the 10 Commandments banners and prayers were “deferred to” by the minority religions. But this is why enclaves exist – aforementioned Jews, not even orthodox ones, created places for themselves to be openly Jewish when just about everyone hated Jews. I think it’s weird if a town wants to put a manger scene on its town hall and “to be fair,” puts a Hannukah display to accommodate zero Jews. What’s wrong with that is it just shouldn’t be there in the first place. But I digress…
If people don’t care what you believe as long as you believe something, people will still argue with you if you believe something they don’t or it conflicts with them. Two Christians can have opposing views on how old the earth is and whether gay people should be allowed to marry. If I believed the moon was calling me and told me my fortune, I’m sure that “belief” would get an earful of “reasons why it’s not true” from someone with a religion. The last time I openly admitted (admitted!) I’m an atheist to people, the one guy who’s a Jew who just ate bacon (and beef) on a pizza looked at me like I’m nuts and the most scientific (PhD at MIT) of the bunch tried to tell me I cannot be more than agnostic and that that’s what I meant (and he’s a Hindu who gets a separate pizza with vegetables because he’s a believer, not because he’s a vegetarian). I care because I will eat the veggie pizza with him and let everyone else eat the meat one, because food is food and I don’t hate vegetables, and I paid to get to eat some of it.
A variation on this was what I planned for my son if the question ever came up in Boy Scouts. He would profess to worship Thor (give me that old time religion, put the Thor back in Thursday!) and would go out every Thursday to squash a bug with his Mjollnir hammer replica, giving his God a blood sacrifice. Sadly he dropped out of scouts before it became necessary.
I’m sure they would have believed they were being mocked, but how could they prove it? The Boy Scouts do not believe in God, they believe in belief in God.
That rock looks like pumice, so go ahead and throw it at me. I’ll use your deity to remove icky buildup from my bathroom porcelain.
and my charcoal grill.
And if you don’t mind, please don’t come knocking on my door to tell me how great your rock is.
I guess the problem Christians have is one of the foundation beliefs is to love your neighbour as yourself, so what do you do if you really believe in hell,what say nothing???When your children are growing up and they are at the age where they start to pull away and want to make their own decisions it can be very stressful when from an adults perspective they are making a terrible choice but they insist on doing it.What you say nothing and just let them find out themselves,no,that would be negligent and not loving.Same with a belief in hell.If when we do die and there is nothing and you were right,fine,sorry for bothering you,but what if you are wrong and Christians are right,eternity isnt a stage in your life that you will grow out of like a poor choice made in your youth,so duck here comes my rock again,Turn to Jesus now.As it says in the book of Proverbs, only the fool says in his heart there is no God.
“…what do you do if you really believe in hell,what say nothing?”
Why do you “really believe in hell”? Did your god visit you personally and spend a few hours chatting about why he wouldn’t hesitate to send you into the horror of eternal torment if you weren’t “good enough”? Oh, and by the way, he loves you! Is that the way you treat your kids? Or your neighbor?
If you didn’t have that chat, then you got the hell idea second-hand from somebody who got it second-hand from somebody else etc, etc. Needless to say, that goes all the way back thousands of years to a somebody who, although ignorant about virtually everything in the world, was smart enough to recognise that inventing a god could make it appear that he knew about things of this world nobody else could understand and that preaching of a horrible threat gave him immense power over other people. However ignorant humans have been in the past, they have always been power mad, and using the threat of punishment from a god has been a guaranteed means to enforce their control over others.
If you believe in hell, you have submitted to the power of other people, people who benefit from controlling you — the vast hierarchy of organized religion. There is no god, there is no hell. There ARE many people who want to control your thinking and take your money.
I believe in hell because the Bible says it exists. i believe the Bible is the word of God and true because of the ability to prove it through prophecies that have come true, even though they were proven to be written 1000′s of years before they happened: Such as Israel becoming a nation again in one day, and that we would become a cashless societ, that people would receive a mark in their right hand or in their forhead that would and that we wouldn’t be able to buy, sell, or trade without it. We are on the very edge of that one. Some people are already getting the RFID’s which do this. Some clubs won’t let you in without one. There are over 100 end-time prophecies that tell us what will happend, and that it will happen in one generations time, and even which generation. Which is the one that was born the year Israel became a nation again in one day. Archaeology proves the people, places, and events of the Bible; the very fact that the whole universe has order, and purpose, and design. I mean, you wouldn’t look a painting of the Mona Lisa, and say look what happened when the paints fell out of the closet, and splatted all over the canvas! The universe if much more complex, with greater levels of order, and design, and yet you believe that it all happened by accident? I mean, really? You believe the complexity of the human body is just an accident? The way the hundreds of thousands of calculations, and actions the body takes on a normal day that keeps us alive and functioning is just an accident? It requires more faith the believe that it all just happened by accident than to be believe in a creator. Especially when the creator has written a book 1000′s of years before events of the world happen, telling us what’s going to happend. compare your history books with what the bible said would happpend, and you’ll see that it’s happened just the way God said it would.
I believe in hell because the Bible says it exists. i believe the Bible is the word of God and true because of the ability to prove it through prophecies that have come true, even though they were proven to be written 1000′s of years before they happened: Such as Israel becoming a nation again in one day, and that we would become a cashless societ, that people would receive a mark in their right hand or in their forhead that would and that we wouldn’t be able to buy, sell, or trade without it. We are on the very edge of that one. Some people are already getting the RFID’s which do this. Some clubs won’t let you in without one.
RFID tags are inserted subcutaneously, typically in the arm, never in the hand or the forehead, so they do not fulfill that prophecy.
There are over 100 end-time prophecies that tell us what will happend, and that it will happen in one generations time, and even which generation. Which is the one that was born the year Israel became a nation again in one day.
But of that day and hour knows no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
- Matthew 24:36
Archaeology proves the people, places, and events of the Bible;
What’s your point here? Archaeology also proves the events of the Koran, and of Greek and Chinese mythology too, among others, so I take it you accept those as true as well? Some mythological writings are founded on actual events. What makes the Bible special in this regard?
the very fact that the whole universe has order, and purpose, and design. I mean, you wouldn’t look a painting of the Mona Lisa, and say look what happened when the paints fell out of the closet, and splatted all over the canvas! The universe if much more complex, with greater levels of order, and design, and yet you believe that it all happened by accident? I mean, really? You believe the complexity of the human body is just an accident? The way the hundreds of thousands of calculations, and actions the body takes on a normal day that keeps us alive and functioning is just an accident?
Who here has claimed that the complexity of the human body is an accident? I certainly don’t believe that- but I don’t believe it was designed by a supernatural being either. It doesn’t look like something that an omniscient being would have designed- several of the systems are clearly jerry-rigged or co-opted from other, earlier structures and functions that we see in related species. The appendix, the knee, the foot, the coccyx the small bones of the inner ear. Most quadrupedal mammals are better adapted structurally to their niches than we are, and they are every bit as complex biochemically.
If you take the time to study mathematics and numerical simulations, you will see that complexity can emerge from simple beginnings with no divine intervention necessary. If you have not taken the time to study what is already known about emergent complexity, you have no business making statements about what is possible and what is not.
It requires more faith the believe that it all just happened by accident than to be believe in a creator. Especially when the creator has written a book 1000′s of years before events of the world happen, telling us what’s going to happend. compare your history books with what the bible said would happpend, and you’ll see that it’s happened just the way God said it would.
Yes, I can see that the world ended within the lifetimes of the generation that witnessed Jesus’ crucifixation two thousand years ago just as the Bible said it would. That one was pretty much a show-stopper.
There are over 100 end-time prophecies that tell us what will happend, and that it will happen in one generations time, and even which generation. Which is the one that was born the year Israel became a nation again in one day.
That’s a minor point compared to UrsaMinor’s rebuttal, but more that one generation time passed since Israel reborn as a country: it was in 1948 and a generation is usually around 20 years, so the events should have append before 1968. Even if you take the definition used in sociology (average age of women at first birth) you get to around 30 years for the countries with the longest generations, so all of these predictions would have to take place before around 1978.
So, even if all comes to pass like predicted (which is, to say the least, doubtful) that’s still a fail: you think that an omniscient being would have get the date right…or, at least, not off by 30 years (that’s one generation and an half, for those who follow at home).
In addition to Ursa’s points
Such as Israel becoming a nation again in one day,
This is an idiotic claim even by bible thumper’s rather low standards. Yes, Israel have officially become an independent state on May 15th 1948 but that was just the official conclusion process that lasted for nearly a century, by the same standard you can claim that any country that have an official independence day has become a nation in one day.
“There are over 100 end-time prophecies that tell us what will happend, and that it will happen in one generations time, and even which generation.”
The bible does specify which generation will see the end of the world. It specifically says the generation from 2,000 years ago will see the end of the world.
Thanks, Nox. I couldn’t be bothered to look up all the Bible verses that support this. But there are only twenty-eight mutually reinforcing references repeated across twelve of the books of the New Testament, so it can’t have been an important point of Christian theology or prophecy, now could it?
I don’t understand prophesy since it’s after the fact. People saw it in the bible and made it come true because it was supposed to, because they regard the bible as prophetic. That’s cheating.
Second of all, but we’re not really looking into the rest of the “prophesies,” if they have not already been forced to come true, they are weak references that people force together like a puzzle to force the bible to appear prophetic. In some instances, people may have had a sense or an idea for an invention, but didn’t have the means. Maybe someone in the bible saw a bird and “prophesied” that humans would fly, for example, because he wished it would be true, and just like science fiction makes a lot of stuff happen in a futuristic setting, sometimes those things eventually get invented. That’s not a prophesy either. It’s not likely just that one person in the bible “foresaw” that humans would fly, it’s just one guy got it mentioned in this book his friend was writing. Although someone might be the first person to think of it or say it out loud or published, it’s not a prophesy. It’s an idea, and people have imaginations and want to innovate – there’s a long history of invention and technology and human record that’s more impressive than the bible for “how humans make shit up and then actually follow through”.
There are some fairly blatant shoe-hornings of events to fit Biblical “prophecies”, and not a few examples of Biblical “prophecies” being written long, long after the events they supposedly prophesied. Some of those events are probably just fictional stories made up to fit, too.
Noticing that the one thing they can’t force to happen hasn’t happened yet, while they base their expectancy that it will on things that aren’t actually prophesies.
Have you tried to balance what you’ve “learned” about NDEs with information that explains what actually happens in those experiences? Have you read both sides? How old are your children and you are basically tell them not to step on cracks in the sidewalk or have bad luck for 7 years if they break a mirror. Just because you are the parent, an adult, with irrational fears doesn’t mean your children have to agree with you to be safe. Why are you so convinced of one thing and afraid of breaking these invisible rules? As an adult, you should not believe in fairy tales or encourage your children or feel righteous in the concept that because you are their parent that you know more. If you know wrong things, you are not teaching them well or protecting them for their own safety, only to allay your own irrational fears. If you haven’t examined these fears from all sides, how do you know what you’re saying is true? You read it on the internet? You can find rational counter-arguments to all your beliefs on the internet too, but … you seem really certain only the stuff you read and makes you fear is correct. You are insisting your parental authority on your children about stuff you have no proof of, and what has convinced you is not proof.
I am not saying parents serve no purpose of safety or training their children to be safe or wise – for instance, looking both ways before crossing the street or not to answer the door unless they know who it is or how to swim or when to say please and thank you, but these types of things have observable consequences if you don’t learn or observe them. Fearing what the invisible bogeyman will do to your soul when you die if you don’t believe in it – when your kid can’t sleep because there’s a monster in the closet, are YOU too scared to look? What convinces you there’s a monster in the closet, you’re a grown-up!
What do you do when your children want to go their own way and perhaps decide for themselves about a heaven or hell? You let them. It’s called love. My loving parents who were wonderful people raised me and my 2 sisters in a Christian denomination, Methodist. I decided at 17 that it wasn’t for me, but my 2 sisters are still devout Christians. I have never regretted my decision to leave the church. That was 48 years ago. The Bible was rewritten and translated so many times (by men with an agenda) that it is impossible for it to be accurate on anything. It contradicts itself everywhere. The start of the stories were so many years after JC was supposed to have done his thing, how accurate were/are any of the accounts? My husband and I raised 2 children in the UU tradition and they have made their own decisions about faith. It wasn’t my job to tell them they were wrong or right in their decisions. IMO, there is absolutely no proof of a heaven or hell. None. NO one has come back and said so. Hell is a control mechanism for religions. Works for some folks and not for others. My parents never threatened us with that myth, as religious as they were. IMO, they were smarter than that.
above at 2:13 pm, 15 August mainly for Jane. Sorry I didn’t address you in the article. :o)
Well “you says”being good enough isnt how you get to heaven and being so bad isnt why people end up in hell or separate from God. And yes ive had plenty of spiritual experiences and so has most people i know plus there is dozens of books and youtube vids of people who have been to heaven and hell who share their experiences with nothing to gain.So no doubt you have heard or read their story’s and the endless NDE people have had,and you can simply discount them as delusional if you like,thats your choice.Why do you think the church controls me and gets my money?
@Norm – churches sell “the solution” to fear of something they made up. What effort do you put in to looking at this from all angles? Of course what you learned is meant to be persuasive. Our brains play tricks on us and most people don’t understand how that works. The statement “only a fool says in his heart there is no god” is for your instantaneous reaction – of course you don’t want to be a fool! What they are really saying is “People won’t believe this unbelievable stuff because it’s too ridiculous, but that just means they are foolish!” Gullible people are persuaded by simple statements like this. Why do you believe there is a god, because your other choice is the bible calls you a fool.
They have got you in a bind now, that’s how it works. People who are too afraid to entertain the notion that it’s not true are their best customers. It is a marketing scheme and it works on you because they sell a product you don’t need by convincing you to be afraid of something they can’t show you and only tell stories about. And then they have some nerve telling you that you’re a fool if you examine these fears rationally and realize they only exist to sell you a product that doesn’t do anything. Perpetually. To scare your children, to tell all your neighbors and friends, using you to sell their product! It’s funniest when they use you as a salesman in their scheme, which they make money off but you get this invisible “heaven” as your reward, and this satisfies you.
Imagine if I said, you’ll get sick if you don’t drink my lemonade, so you drink the lemonade and don’t get sick! Oh my, this stuff is a miracle! I have to buy it and tell my friends! They tell you they will give you a prize if you bring friends over to buy their lemonade, and your prize is a smile. Where’s your cut? They are using you. You’ll get paid “after you die”.
Norm, I have also had many “spiritual” experiences. The trouble is that they seem to me indistinguishable from the emotional experiences that come feom singing with any group, watching a profoundly emotional movie, or what I feel when I go for a walm on a beautiful morning. I also know a little bit of psychology and neuroanatomy, so I know that “spiritual” experiences can be induced physically with magnets or can be a result of brain injury. I’ve also seen lots of houtube videos of people of relifions other Christianity making claims just like anyrhing you or any other Christian have made. Knowing all this, why wojld I NOT dismiss your statement and experiences as at best dubious, at worst evidence of something wmedically wrong ?
I also have studied the basics of group psychology. It is, yes, pretty clear that many churches and church leaders not only use psychological tricks to control the flock, but also encourage the flock to use similar tactics on their family, friends and neighbors. I do not want your rocks, and I hope your children mature to the point that they too can resist them and make their own decisions onhow to live their lives. Being guilted by their dad into living a certain way is a crappy way to live.
I explained one reason why the church (industry of religion) controls you and takes your money. Too bad you can’t seem to understand that.
So, you have these chats with god pretty often do you? Does he call first to make an appointment or just suddenly show up sitting at your kitchen table after helping himself to a cup of coffee? Does he go into detail about all the cool ways he plans to torture you if he sends you to hell, or just toss out a few hints, you know…just to make you more terrified than you were before he dropped in?
And about your friends and acquaintances, do they have group meetings with god or do they all do it secretly with nobody else around who could corroborate their amazing claims? What about you?
When these people you speak of go visiting heaven and hell, do they go with a tour group, or just get a round-trip ticket for themselves? Seems that would be kind of selfish doesn’t it? I’m sure lots of people would want to tag along to see the clouds and harps and gold paved streets and all, even if they couldn’t stay in paradise permanently. Do any of them try to stow away or hide after they get there? Maybe try to miss the return bus or something? Nah, they’d get tossed straight into hell if they tried that huh?
Speaking of hell, how did the people who went there get to leave and come back to talk about it?
In a related note, I hope you know there are medications or maybe EST treatments that can help you live a somewhat normal life despite your condition.
Well thanks for your comments,i appreciate the feedback.XXX
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