Isaac Flemming, round #1

I’ve agreed to do an online debate/blogalog with Isaac Fleming over the existence of god.  Here is his opening.

God exists. When I speak of God I speak of the Christian God in particular although the arguments used pointing to theism may at times overlap with deism as well. I am going for God in general, and more specifically of Christianity in particular.

From a worldview level I think that because God exists one can have a cohesive and coherent worldview. One can make sense of the world and one’s personal life.

1. Origen – God is the best explanation for the universe. The argument is as follows. 1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause, 2. The universe began to exist, 3. Therefore the universe has a cause. This cause I call God. An eternal universe breaks down with the laws of thermodynamics. A multi-verse does not seem to be proven as of yet, and if it were it would not take God out of the picture. I think that God created the universe, which is backed up by the outset argument of this paragraph. It was created with a purpose, by an all intelligent being. To further back up this idea we could say that from nothing, nothing comes. We can clearly see that the universe had a beginning and was not always here, therefore how does something come from nothing. There is also intelligence from the outset. How does intelligence come from non-intelligence? If there is no intelligent being of some kind in the cause, how can we expect the same in the effect?

2. Meaning – I think objective meaning exists, and is best explained by the existence of God. If there was no ultimate objective meaning from the outset, then how can there be any ultimate meaning to this existence now? From the point of view that God exists, there is meaning from the outset therefore ultimate meaning is an actual reality. It stands outside of ourselves which gives it objectivity. Atheism does not give a good explanation here. In my own discussions some say there is no actual objective meaning. Others provide subjective personal examples of what is meaningful to them. Yet, this is not ultimate or objective. It is subjective, and again how does meaning and purpose come about if there was not meaning and purpose to our coming about in the first place?

3. Morality – Objective morals exist which is best explained by the existence of a good God. Therefore Christianity has the best ontological argument for the existence of morals. If absolute moral values exist then God exists. Absolute moral values do exist, therefore God does exist. The idea that God exists provides the framework for looking at moral evils that happen in society and actually calling them for what they are. This does not mean there are no sticky issues, but it does mean there is an absolute objective standard, where as in atheism there is subjectivity. Now, this does not mean that some of the same conclusions cannot be reached about morality. I am not saying that an atheist cannot do good things. This is clearly not what Christianity says. The point is that the Christians have a way of grounding them.

4. Destiny (What happens after death?) – I think that life after death exists, which shows that there is true destiny. In the end if atheism is true, it has a real sense that what was done on this earth did not matter. Now, I know the atheist tries to rescue this, but it is foreign to the worldview. If there was no meaning to existence in the outset and there is no ultimate purpose or meaning to the end of life, then life has no ultimate meaning or purpose. One is left with the temporal purposes, which may have its perks, but meaning is not central or ultimate to atheism. If in the end there is nothing, morality is undercut as well. Destiny makes sense if God exists, which makes one’s life having meaning in the outset as well as what comes after.

5. Truth: Objective truth that can be known makes the most sense if God exists. This leads me to the validity of reasoning itself, which seems better explained by the existence of a rationale mind rather than the result of non-rationale processes. It is hard to think that rationale can be valid from non-rationale causes; therefore a rationale super intellect makes more sense of one’s valid rationality.

6. Jesus Christ claimed to be God, and backed it up with a resurrection in time and space history. The best explanation for the resurrection story is that it actually happened. I think his resurrection was an actual miracle which is proof for the validity of the Christian religion most specifically that God exists. One may not grant miracles, but they cannot use their ideology to discount it, it must be discounted by what evidence there is itself. One cannot just say miracles do not exist, because they have to prove this, not assume it. Which I think trying to prove the resurrection actually wrong, is a tall order.

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