When your prayers are only ever answered by mortals, it’s time to stop asking god.

Saw another prayer request on Mark Shea’s blog that I thought begged for comment.

My reader who has been suffering from profound depression has a treatment option open to her, but will need resources to do it, particularly childcare every day for three weeks from 8 to 5.  FWIW, I’ve suggested she start a Kickstarter page or some other fundraising thing.  If she does, I will give youse guys the link because you are awesome and generous and have ridden to the rescue of Christ’s beloved in the past.

Take a moment to let the irony of praying to the architect of depression to cure depression sink in.  It’s like people beseeching Osama Bin Laden to put a stop to terrorism.

What’s more, if prayer works, you don’t need the Kickstarter page.  However, if human being are the solution to every problem facing, like the people donating to the Kickstarter page and the psychological experts who have dedicated their lives to understanding the operation of the human mind, then the Kickstarter page makes perfect sense.  People like Shea say they believe in a god who answers prayers, but then act like it’s all bullshit.

And if the depressed person is Christ’s beloved, why would Christ afflict them with depression?  And why are the efforts of people who are not all-powerful required?

Another reader writes to ask for prayer as he struggles with a deep crisis of faith.

Father, hear our prayer that your son will find his footing on the Rock who is Jesus Christ and place his complete trust in you.  Mother Mary and St. Thomas the Doubter, pray for him.

Send them to me.  I can help them.

  • Carol Eberhard

    I have seen several people who, when asked to pray for someone, post their prayer right then and there on Facebook. This always cracks me up. I hope god logs in to see it. Oh, wait, maybe it’s good ole Christian posturing! Not really meant for god so much as it is for all the people who really do read Facebook.

    • Art_Vandelay

      Right? I don’t even think they actually pray. I think all they have to do is type “prayers” on Facebook and their job is done.

      “I’m praying for you.” Ummm…no you’re not. You’re screwing around on Facebook.

      • invivoMark

        Functionally, I see no difference.

        • Glodson

          i see a difference. Screwing around on Facebook at least does something. Notably, it leaves a post or a like on Facebook.

          Unlike prayer, which is like having a conversation with a mute imaginary friend.

          So, by screwing around on Facebook, you’ve actually managed to do more than if you had just prayed.

          • Art_Vandelay

            In terms of counter-productivity, beating screwing around on Facebook is something to hang your hat on.

    • Glodson

      I wonder if god “likes” prayers he’s going to grant, or if he just likes the ones he thinks are cute.

    • invivoMark

      We know He reads Facebook, because sometimes people write “G-d” in place of “God” in their Facebook posts.

      From this, we can infer the following:

      1) God reads Facebook.

      2) God hates it when you write “God” on Facebook (possibly only in certain circumstances… I could never figure that out).

      3) God is exceptionally easy to trick, and can’t figure out what the missing letter is in “G-d”.

      • Nate Frein

        It’s a Jewish thing, and it’s not just confined to Facebook. It has to do with the commandment to not take the lord’s name in vain.

        • invivoMark

          I thought God was just a title in Jewish tradition, like King or Emperor, and not a name. God’s actual name is like El or Yhwh or something like that.

          If you can argue that God is God’s nickname, or close enough to his name to violate that commandment, then why doesn’t G-d?

          • Nate Frein

            I won’t even pretend to know. I asked one time. That was the answer I got.

          • John H

            Wiki has good info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_take_the_name_of_the_Lord_thy_God_in_vain
            Basically, it comes from the Big Ten Commandments and a lot of confusion relating to the fact that we’re not all speaking Ancient Hebrew. The commandment prohibits misusing the personal name of their god (most likely transliterated to English as “Yahweh”); being super-worried that any use might potentially viewed as improper, some sects of Judaism stopped saying the name entirely, writing it without vowel diacritics or euphemizing it entirely as “elohim” (gods, interestingly plural though it still takes singular adjective and noun conjugations; “el” is the Hebrew root for “god”, with a suffixed morpheme indicating grammatical number), “adonai” (lords, again plural), or “HaShem” (The Name).

            Fast forward to today where some Christians, not realizing/caring that “God” bears no resemblance to the personal name of their god, nor a translation nor transliteration of it into English, still avoid writing “God” in an attempt to follow the commandment (and mirroring the dropping of the vowels from the written yod-he-waw-he [YHWH] in Hebrew). Basically, it’s becasue of a belief that words are magical.

            (There’s an alternate theory that the practice started to prevent representations of Yahweh from being defaced by rival cults; this may also be the reason for the prohibition on religious idols, which Christians have been only too happy to abandon.)

          • Nate Frein

            Cool, thanks for the better insight.

          • invivoMark

            It’s awesome how among this blog’s commentariat, a few lines of snark frequently lead to opportunities for learning. Thanks!

          • Kodie

            As far as I can tell, the Jews believe they excel the most at outsmarting god. They have devout beliefs we should respect that they seem to mostly abide their spooky laws with technicalities.

          • CottonBlimp

            You probably know this already, but for no reason whatsoever except that that’s what other people are doing.

            If they were into questioning the reasons behind ritualistic social behavior they wouldn’t be religious in the first place.

      • Glodson

        Gid? Gad? Gyd? Ged? Fuck, I can’t figure out these kids and their slang! I’m going to look at LOLcats, to hell with these prayers!– G-d.

        • Kodie

          Ggd.

          • Guest

            https://twimg0-a.akamaihd.net/profile_images/2695194938/c5e0ba30acb14fc619091569646c5e8b.gif

            Edit to fix blind linking faux pas: I feel like this image is the only appropriate reply to that.

            Edit again: Whoah! My post just imaged, but only after editing. Disqus is confusing.

          • Kodie

            I don’t know why people assume the missing letter is a vowel. In the beginning, Glen Quagmire said “giggity” and it was good. Everything after the fig leafs were adopted speaks for itself.

  • Glodson

    FWIW, I’ve suggested she start a Kickstarter page or some other
    fundraising thing. If she does, I will give youse guys the link because
    you are awesome and generous and have ridden to the rescue of Christ’s
    beloved in the past.

    I’m confused. If god is going to answer prayers and help, why does she need the help of donations? Why not just put the money in her wallet? Or give her the winning lottery number?

    But I will say this…. the people who give money to her would be more generous than their god. (Also, this raises an issue… if she’s praying for the money and she gets it from people, how could anyone give god credit? Wouldn’t it be the efforts of the people donating unless god removed their free will and forced them to give. If that’s the case, why not just remove the woman’s problem and safe the effort?)

    • islandbrewer

      Maybe it’s like the matching gift donations like NPR has during pledge week? God will match your gift dollar for dollar!

      … except he won’t.

      • Glodson

        Oh, he’ll match it… with money donated by other people. And he’ll match that too… with… pretty much this is recursive. Where do you think the really rich mega church people get their money?

    • kagekiri

      See, God is good, and God is love, so any good or loving things are proof of him! Superior morality by way of mere definition/attribution!

      “You’re the one who gave her the money!”

      “But God TOLD me to!”

      “But you’re the one who listened!”

      “But thank God, he made me someone who would/could listen!”

      …repeat ad nauseum. The whole “your problems are yours because you MUST have chosen them or deserved them, but your goodness is God’s and you deserve no credit” thing is pretty ridiculous.

    • Kodie

      The generosity of people seems to let these people know their god is working for them though. That’s what’s tough. It’s not right to leave this person high and dry just for believing, but every dollar you give them affirms their beliefs.

  • islandbrewer

    I like the praying to other dead saints to pray on their behalf – it sort of lays out both the hierarchical mindset of catholicism as well as its polytheist nature. The greeks used to pray to Hera to intercede with Zeus on their behalf (because her husband was a dick and an occasional rapist, but his wife had the ability to calm him down).

    So, taking this model, god is a dick, but some of his closest entourage might be able to get in a good word for you if you suck up. It has entirely nothing to do with merit, of course. God answers based on the quantity and quality of suck-upitude.

    • islandbrewer

      And by “I like” I really meant “I find sociologically interesting.”

    • invivoMark

      It always creeped me the hell out.

      I would never ask a dead person to do something for me. Unless that thing were to eat my neighbor’s brains.

      • Glodson

        Gid? Gad? Gyd? Ged? Fuck, I can’t figure out these kids and their slang! I’m going to look at LOLcats, to hell with these prayers!– G-d.

        • islandbrewer

          Sometimes you need to have your neighbors brains eaten.

          Edit: Doh!

    • baal

      This work IRL too. I’ve asked some folks to float my ideas sometimes when the person making the decisions doesn’t always want to hear from me. Nice to know gods can be fooled by the same simple ruse.

  • Art_Vandelay

    Send them to me. I can help them.

    Not if an old virgin and a skeptical apostle have something to say about it.

  • Jasper

    To be fair, it’s really hard to 1) find two true Christians and 2) get them to pray about the same thing.

    • Glodson

      We all know that there is no such thing as True Christians. There’s just a large set of Christians that as numerous subsets of True Christian with only a single element in each of those subsets. So there cannot really be two True Christians, but rather a True Christian, and a different True Christian which is the element of another singular subset.

    • Greg G.

      You would think it would be cheaper for a construction company to hire one True Christian with the faith of a mustard seed than to buy all that earth-moving equipment and hire the people to drive it.

  • beebdeed

    I think that it was on this site that I read the quote:

    “Prayer – the ultimate way to abandon responsibility whilst insisting that you’re helping…..”

  • Link Daddy

    Christians are all ONE in the Body of Christ…extensions of His Body on earth. Christ is the head of the Body, and we are the members. Each member of the Body has a different function. All the parts are connected by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    St. Paul describes it best (for the mockers here, he even addresses “those members of the body which we deem less honorable”):

    For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts. -1 Corinthians 12:12-31

    • Art_Vandelay

      This has to just be Zinc Avenger fucking with us.

      • Zinc Avenger

        To be that densely self-referential and utterly oblivious to anything that passes as an “argument” in the real world takes a Troo Beleever.

      • Glodson

        That is wishful thinking.

    • kagekiri

      I know it’s hard coming up with actual arguments that aren’t just “God is always right, he couldn’t possibly do evil, lalalalalalalaaaa!”, but a giant Bible quote is a poor substitute, especially without explaining your personal interpretation of said passage.

      Your regurgitation of the passage right before the passage was a somewhat better attempt as it was in your own words (ish), but still entirely fails to say how it applies to this situation.

      Basic interpretation and application are freaking Bible study 101 or the components of every sermon ever; get your religious shit together. My rating: D-

      But as an expert in making Biblical applications up thanks to my 20+ years of being a Sunday School teacher’s pet (and then a Sunday School teacher), I’d say you were going for “this lady is the less honorable member, and thus we Christians, as fellow body parts, need to take care of her” bit?

      The thing is: getting diseases and mental illnesses AREN’T a function any body part has; it’s perhaps an infection in this strained metaphor, which potentially happens to any body part. So why is this lady “less honorable” to you? Are you saying her role as someone being helped is her duty or something?

      Jesus apparently said a man was given a disability because it would glorify God when it was healed…that would’ve been a WAY better reason that wouldn’t require obliquely demeaning a fellow Christian as “less honorable”.

      You really should’ve tried a different verse, like say the one I mentioned of the blind man being blamed for his disability, or the ones about how the people should lay on hands to heal each other, or how the early church sold its own belongings and spread out their resources to the poor like a commune in Acts, or how they say to “help the needy and desperate because that’s like doing it for Christ” in the Gospels.

      That crap about honoring and Christians being a body is just barely linkable, and more insulting than anything.

      Don’t try to take atheists to Bible school if you’re not even a graduate yourself; it makes me embarrassed for you.

      • Link Daddy

        When I spoke of the “less honorable” parts, I was silently referring to myself. I do not deserve to be graced with the honor of being called a Christian – and I certainly do not deserve the Love I have received from Christ and His Body.
        The thought that the lady suffering from depression is a “less honorable” part of the body never even entered into my head-until you injected it. Thanks for that.

        • Glodson

          When I spoke of the “less honorable” parts, I was silently referring to
          myself. I do not deserve to be graced with the honor of being called a
          Christian – and I certainly do not deserve the Love I have received from
          Christ and His Body.

          That’s the doctrine of the religion. Well, a part of it. That no one is deserving of it. So the false modesty part of this is disingenuous. If you believe the Bible, and this teaching, you must believe that no one is deserving of it.

          Meaning that everyone is deserving of an eternity in Hell, as no one is deserving of god’s grace.

          There is a practical function of this guilt. By dehumanizing yourself, by casting yourself as lesser, it is easier to follow blindly. This is not a good thing.

          Maybe asking a few questions as to why god would create such conditions as to even allow for us to be tortured forever in hell.

        • kagekiri

          You’re reminding me of the utter mind censorship and self-esteem assassination that all my years of Christianity instilled in me: thanks for that.

          “Silently referring to yourself”…talking to yourself on comment threads is a bit rude.

          • Glodson

            @kagekiri:disqus

            Yea. It is an odd mix we got in the religion. It is a mark of humility to consider yourself a horrible sinner. It is so horrible, in fact, that you have to brag about being a horrible sinner to show off how humble you are for the lord, which absolves you of being the horrible sinner.

          • kagekiri

            Yeah, I used to beg to be humble, and then have to beg God to kill my pride in wanting to be humble.

            I saw the same in others: people saying they had tons to brag about, but saying God made them humble, then basically bragging about their humility, then saying it was for God’s glory…..

            The punishments for pride and the whole “last will be first” thing makes the self-reinforcing self-martyring, self-hating stuff all the more twisted, circular, and destructive.

          • Zinc Avenger

            Uriah Heep was the Christian’s hero in David Copperfield.

          • invivoMark

            Oy, that’s a triple paradox! A humble, bragging, absolved sinner!

          • Art_Vandelay

            “I’m humbly on a divine mission for the creator of a 950 trillion light year sized universe!”

          • Link Daddy

            No ruder than you “rating” me on the quality of my “religious s#%t.” Thanks for that.
            Is sneering cynicism a by-product of higher self-esteem?

          • Glodson

            Is sneering cynicism a by-product of higher self-esteem?

            It is the byproduct of exposure to reality, bad apologetics, and Random Bible Verse quoting.

          • kagekiri

            You’re so welcome!

            Posting Bible verses on atheist threads without arguments or commentary is deserving of little to no respect. Posting verses that have no relevance is worse still.

            You still haven’t stated anything of relevance or usefulness to explain your position, or how it even applies to the story. I made more Christian arguments than you in my attempt at a rude but somewhat constructive critique, which was kinda my point there. Even my inner Bible-studier voice has no idea where the fuck you’re going with that verse.

            And my cynicism is a product of religious bullshit, both what I’ve experienced and what I continue to experience post-deconversion. I’ve been fucked by religious thinking, and continue to see family harmed by it. It gets no free passes from me.

          • Link Daddy

            STAY CALM
            AND…

          • Kodie

            … fuck off, you arrogant douchenozzle?

          • Link Daddy

            The great irony is that you respond as such, and I will be banned from this blog when JT wakes up on Monday. F-bombs and ignorance trump the Truth in this house.

          • Nate Frein

            Oh get over yourself.

            First, name one thing you posted here that is actually “true” in the sense that you can provide evidence for it. And as much disregard people may have had for your delicate sensibilities, they responded to the content of your posts, a favor you have yet to return.

            You probably won’t get banned, and if you do get banned, JT will most likely do so after creating a blog post explaining in excruciating detail how obtuse you were being. Not that Glodson, Kagekiri, Kode, et al haven’t done so already.

          • Link Daddy

            What is Truth? Jesus – The Word – is the Truth…and is not allowed to be posted here “without proof.” His Life, and Word, and Spirit are the proof.

            Billions know/experience and/or believe it. You all will too some day.

            http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/

          • DavidMHart

            A presuppositionalism flowchart? Really? That’s your ‘proof’? You’re going to have to try harder. The fact that logic holds true does not prove that the universe was created by a sentient supernatural entity, no matter how hard you wish it did. And it certainly doesn’t mean that the universe has to have been created by a sentient entity who is his own father and had to sacrifice himself to himself in order to persuade himself to forgive us for being the way he made us – because logic tells us that that proposition is completely nonsensical.

          • Kodie

            Proselytizing your faith is not the same as engaging in a productive conversation, and pouting it out like you did so fast just tells me you’re not a good listener yourself. Do you have any questions or do you just like to stand there with your dick in your hand complaining that nobody lined up to suck it?

            Logic fail 1: circular argument
            Logic fail 2: just because a belief is popular doesn’t mean it’s true; billions more don’t believe in your god than do.
            Logic fail 3: Threatening people. If it’s something you have to wait until you die to find out, you don’t know either.

            What does your link say that you can’t put together in your own articulation? I mean, if you are coming here with these shitty persuasive techniques religions used to convince you, what point is it to click on your link? Is it really hard for you to explain? Do you think you already have but this source is how you support your prior arguments?

            I really don’t know why you got so angry so fast – you may have gotten frustrated that you felt like you had the slam dunk nobody’s ever considered before, and since you find no fault in it, you are blaming everyone else. You think certainty comes from arrogance. Did it ever occur to you that you’re so gullible and inarticulate and lacking critical thinking skills, that the reason you are poorly received on atheist blogs is because you don’t actually know what you’re talking about? Many atheists used to be believers, very sincere and deeply devout believers. They have had their emotions tugged by terrible logic like you have, and they have since sorted it out. You are not talking to a bunch of people who just never heard of Jesus before.

          • islandbrewer

            So I followed that link, and clicked through to the inevitable Ten Brugencate (or whatever William Shitbag Craig’s friend’s name is) conclusion that without a giant invisible man in the sky, I couldn’t think.

            Which is, of course, bullshit.

            I find it particularly revealing that this site couches this chestnut as a “big reveal” … “You can’t think without God! TA DA!” Fuck all the explanation or evidence for why the divine is necessary changing neural membrane action potentials.

            I just erased a long explanation on how cognitive processes work, how they adapt to sensory input, how we can build simple electronic models that that learn and navigate mazes, and simple biological systems that learn.

            But it doesn’t matter. Because you don’t care. You don’t give a fucking shit about proof or evidence, or even the truth (unless it’s your Truth (TM)).

            Thanks for the presuppositionalist trolling. It was mildly entertaining.

            3/10

          • kagekiri

            Oh, number of believers now qualifies something as true? Interesting. I guess Allah of Islam and the billions of Gods in Hinduism are true because of the number of true believers THEY have, huh?

            Look, buddy, I thought the same way as you. Simply regurgitating Scriptures convinces no one. Redefining words to get God off the hook for evidence or evil is staggeringly ineffective.

            And whining about how mean people are, when Jesus himself said people would be annoyed by Christians, and to rejoice in suffering and persecution on his behalf? Seems like you want your cake and want to eat it too. Jesus of the Bible was right: if we didn’t respect him, that thought-crime enforcing, hell-promising delusional rabbi, we won’t respect you merely for saying you’re his follower.

          • Kodie

            Claiming you have come here with the “Truth” is exceedingly why I labeled you an arrogant douchenozzle. Now it’s your turn to spot where you think we’re all being ignorant? You already failed to spot any irony.

          • Link Daddy

            Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge). The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware…(Source: Wikipedia.com).

            I am ignorant of many things: car maintenance, lobstering, how to play Go, the Cyrillic alphabet, etc. Just pointing out that you are all ignorant of the fact that God is alive and He loves you.

          • islandbrewer

            Presuppositionalism is not proof by any reasonable standard. Why do you think it’s proof of anything, let alone that there’s a giant invisible magic man loving me and making up rules to send me to eternal torture?

          • Link Daddy

            Do you really need to throw out seven-syllables to say “stop assuming that God exists when you reply to us.” Check this out, though: I KNOW HE DOES! Your use of this word is backwards – kinda like a blind person telling me: “The sky is NOT blue! Presupposing this is not proof by any reasonable standard (in my experience).”

          • Kodie

            Nobody cares about your problems. Calling us blind because we don’t share your delusion is arrogant douchenozzle material. Instead of complaining that the accurate words people use are too big, stop insisting you have the Truth without ever bringing evidence. Nobody cares what you feel. If that’s all you have to talk about, just take a hint. It’s not falling on deaf ears or blind eyes – you have said nothing to support your argument and only everything to complain that nobody wants to hear your loud nothingness.

          • islandbrewer

            Does it fucking matter what words I use to point out that you are making an assumption without proof, and that your “proof” is just nothing more than saying “just because”?

            Using the term “presuppositionalism” is rather a polite term for what ought to be called “shitty thinking that only the most fervently deluded godbots would think is clever.”

            So, you know … sorry … “KNOW HE EXISTS.”

            Without using presuppositionalism … er, sorry … shitty thinking, can you, in explain how you know … sorry “KNOW HE EXISTS”?

            (For future reference, the Caps-Lock key is to the left just above the Shift key on most keyboards.)

            Your use of this word is backwards – kinda like a blind person telling me: “The sky is NOT blue!

            Um…. no. You are making an implicit assumption. Your implicit assumption (aka, presupposition) is not proof. An apt analogy would be a blind person telling you that “You haven’t told me WHY you think the sky is green.”

            I’m using the term “presupposition” in the the right way. Don’t just be a contrarian douchenozzle just because you can’t make an argument, please. (Hey, Kodie! I’m really warming up to the term douchenozzle! Thanks!)

            And calling me blind is pretty fucking condescending, so … thanks for showing your true colors. … for Jesus, I’d assume. I’m blind because I don’t see leprechauns with a rainbow trail effect like you do? Sorry, it wasn’t leprechauns, it was your almighty fuckwad of a god – I confuse the two.

          • Kodie

            Wow. You are an arrogant douchenozzle. You think telling us this is supposed to cast some spell and we suddenly believe everything you say? You have come here to proselytize and not to get into any discussions. You’re just saying things like “billions of people have felt” some delusion that you share and you got pissy because atheists demand evidence and you’re not given the welcome you thought you deserved. It’s not because you’re a Christian, it’s because everything you’ve said so far is unsupported nonsense, yet you think you’re exactly what we need. You have come here to try to save people, not communicate with us like a decent person. You have prejudices and they are glaring. What kind of messenger doesn’t say anything? Check yourself, buddy. The reason nobody is blown over by what you have to say is that you don’t have evidence. It’s unbelievable. “Billions of other people believe it” is not a valid reason to believe anything.

          • islandbrewer

            And here’s one more thing you’re ignorant of:

            Any rational argument that even vaguely demonstrates any evidence for a giant invisible man in the sky.

          • Drakk

            Well, I’m convinced. Allahu akbar!

          • baal

            “you are all ignorant of the fact that God is alive and He loves you.”

            but I’ve seen Cyrillic, love playing Go with those fun little pieces that are not M&Ms and used to change my oil. Lobster is really yummy and I get the basics of boats, nets, and such. My ‘evidence’ for god is folks like you making assertions. This puts you in the same box (fields of molehills) as UFO sighters and big foot / nessy enthusiasts.

          • http://www.facebook.com/norman.donnan Norm Donnan

            Ha you figgered atheist blogs out pretty quick LD, arrogant simpleton best sums up Kodie. Im sure shes a sweetie at heart

          • islandbrewer

            Wow. Hey, could you try to be more condescending, Norm? I think you were far too subtle with your godboticle disdain.

          • Kodie

            Norm, thanks for helping out Link Daddy but I’m sure he can do without your deadweight, he’s sinking ok on his own.

          • Link Daddy

            Went to church this morning feeling the way a person feels after spending the day before…here.
            Then, “coincidentally” Second Reading at Mass this morning was: http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/051913-pentecost-mass-during-day.cfm
            …and it’s Pentecost! All better now. Thank you, Jesus.

          • Kodie

            You are hooked on drugs, son.

          • Link Daddy

            Holy Spirit Fire…Spark it up!
            Jesus IS Lord!

          • http://www.facebook.com/norman.donnan Norm Donnan

            Thats awesome LD,dont you wish the people here could only experience the Holy Spirit in their lives,As it is they can only bitch and moan about our reality so dont be disheartened,what we have they can only hope for.They put their hope in themselves,pleasure ,money ect instead of the One who gives hope and grace freely through His Son.There is a time coming soon when signs and wonders will be poured out on the earth and those who are searching,like those here (lm looking at you Kodie)will finally understand the truth and turn to Him.

          • http://www.facebook.com/norman.donnan Norm Donnan

            I read your mass reading,It really is the living word.

          • kagekiri

            Matthew 6:5

            “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.”

            I was “led by the Holy Spirit” and this verse came to mind, along with Paul’s many recommendations of being a “Jew to win the Jews.”

            It’s…it’s like decades of indoctrination and practice of post-hoc rationalization of coincidences make these connections obvious the “Spirit” is here speaking to me again, that still-small whisper in my brain heart (that’s TOTALLY not just my subconscious stringing bullshit from Sunday sermons together).

            Here’s a hint, since your inner “Holy Spirit” (i.e., your ego and internalized bits of your religion) is obviously blind to it: your obtuse obliviousness on these threads is a stumbling block to reasonable people anywhere, keeping us from even pretending “believers” have anything resembling a coherent argument or proof of God.

            When trying to convert people who say they value reason (whether or not you think they’re really reasonable), try and actually use reasons and arguments. Duh. Even Paul, saying how he didn’t need arguments, and only needed the power of the Holy Spirit to convert people, went ahead and made a whole shitload of arguments, even making up connections of Yahweh to the Greek Pantheon in Athens while preaching.

            The other option is to bring a bigger dose of this magical “spirituality”, because your current level of HS juice is obviously ineffective.

            Or you know, practice the method Jesus commanded when people reject your preaching: flounce off and say people who didn’t believe you are just haters who will suffer for rejecting God (that’s not a joke: Jesus says to dust off your feet as warning to cities that reject a preacher).

          • Link Daddy

            Satan tried to attack Jesus with Scripture. That didn’t work out so well…

            Are you calling me a hypocrite for going to church (I get to be one with Jesus – Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity – every day if I want to! Why would I pass that up?), or for telling you I went to church (technically, none of you know me and, therefore, I receive no reward from you – unless slander is reward)?

            I was just passing on a little miracle to you…a little proof that Jesus is the Word.

            “Therefore do not fear them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. What I tell you in the darkness, speak in the light; and what you hear whispered in your ear, proclaim upon the housetops. Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” -Matthew 10:26-28

          • kagekiri

            Oh, so you’re Jesus, now? And I’m Satan?

            Really? This is humility? And I’m the one slandering YOU?

            And no, you gave no miracle nor proof. Billions go to churches that believe fundamentally contradictory things. That they all think they have the one true knowledge of the supernatural and that all coincidences are proof of their gods, and I think you’re all wrong. Your confidence is not proof, and going between bragging about how great Jesus is and how sad you are for us is a supremely poor substitute for listening and actually trying to argue with what people have said to you.

            Also, hilarious that smugly bragging about yourself doesn’t count if you do it and no one knows you…that’s not how humility works IRL or in your scriptures, jackass.

            But please, keep smugly spewing pointless verses that don’t really relate, rudely fail to respond to actual responses like in violation of you own fucking scriptures that I quoted to you, and generally making Christians look even worse than they already do. You’re not nearly as enlightened as you think you are.

          • Link Daddy

            Do you believe in the Holy Spirit? Did the Holy Spirit give you that verse for me? If no, you are just mocking and/or lying…

            As Jesus establishes in His Word: believers are part of His Body. Not being prideful. Just telling you the Truth.

          • Kodie

            Someone gave you something to think about – from your bible – and your answer is that they’re satan because they’re either mocking you or lying? You are certainly quick to judge. I will definitely say your first guess was right, you’re a hypocrite. You are a hypocrite because the first thing you did when you sensed that was to find and name all the loopholes that prove you aren’t. Then you judged someone because they made you to look at yourself, you found yourself to be holier-than-thou, and called the other person satan. And that’s only one of your marked delusions. Like I said, you’re hooked on drugs.

          • kagekiri

            Yeah, like believing Jesus speaks through you is at all humble.

            Again, keep ignoring everything everyone else is saying and only respond with smug bullshit that whines and entirely misses the point. It really is a good way to prop up your faith and insulate from actual truth.

          • Link Daddy

            Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. -1 Corinthians 12:3

          • Kodie

            Jesus is Logggahhahhahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

            You believe we believe the same stupid shit you do for the same stupid reasons that you cannot even realize how stupid what you said was. The bible confirms that the bible is correct. Not a really good way to ground yourself in reality. When are you going to say something that actually matters? Jesus is Lord by the way. Jesus is Lord, Jesus is Lord, Jesus is Lord. Or are you going to go out of your way to make some shitty argument about how I didn’t really say that when everyone can see that I did?

            Still, you had a lot of room and time to express your supporting evidence that any of the bullshit you have said is true, and you used that room and time to say other stuff. Do you think we’re as easily fooled as you are?

          • Link Daddy

            Now say it…Not to this room, but to Him, audibly.

          • Kodie

            I just heard recently by another true believer that prayer only works if you don’t talk. I don’t think he’ll hear me anyway since he doesn’t exist outside of your imagination. Did you really think your little evangelism tour netted you a soul to win?

            Or are you going to go out of your way to make some shitty argument
            about how I didn’t really say that when everyone can see that I did?

            Yup. Try to be even more predictable and say another thing from the bible.

          • Link Daddy

            I think God invented Bluetooth in these Last Days so His followers can just talk to Him out loud all day long without feeling a bit “weird.”

          • Kodie

            Not that it ever stopped you. By the way, are you making another unsupported claim? I am not surprised because Jesus IM’d me and told me you would.

          • Link Daddy

            Just supposing…

          • baal

            Now, you want Kodie to talk to your invisible friend? Well, I’m not going to follow your god until you prove that it’s not possible to prostrate yourself before Cthulhu by actually doing so.

          • Dez

            Mentioning Jesus is useless as speaking about Zeus or Odin. It’s all the same crap to us. What makes your mythology more likely than any other besides a book that says so? Any actual evidence that can be evaluted by anyone.

          • kagekiri

            “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.” Matthew 7:6

            You can even pretend you’re the one throwing pearls out and us atheist “dogs” are tearing you a new one (wow, scripture’s been FULFILLED! PRAISE JESUS!), but either way, you’ve been rejected. Step 2: stop digging. Seriously, that’s straight from Jesus, repeated multiple times.

            See, THAT’s how you quote shit. Don’t just post random crap and expect others to get what the fuck you’re saying. How about those verses about asking for a good thing and getting a bad one, also in Matthew 7? Because we asked for relevance, for how your scriptures actually apply to the story, but you just whine and complain about being insulted.

            What happened to heaping burning coals on our heads? What happened to giving a man your tunic when he asks for your coat? You’re whining about me insulting your religion, while you insult our skepticism (my crap about the “hearing ‘the Holy Spirit’” was because you mocked skeptics with “oh, what a ‘coincidence’”, asshat). What happened to “may your yes be yes, and your no be no”? Jesus isn’t for sarcasm.

            Newsflash: we don’t have verses saying not to mock people, you do. You want me to listen to your holy scriptures that you can’t even interpret for me? And you want to do it while ignoring all the verses you don’t like that I’ve quoted over and over? Tough, not gonna happen.

            Your scriptures utter ineffectiveness at making you listen as a supposed “true believer” only further lowers my respect for it. And considering I started this conversation off thinking it was backwards, pointless, and misguided shit from ancient history, yeah, quite the accomplishment. With proponents like you, the Bible has little want for detractors.

          • Kodie

            Your arrogance knows no upper limit; and your god’s miracles know no lower limit. That’s really pathetic – you went to church, pissed your pants over a sermon and you’re proud to announce this as proof of something? That’s not proof of anything. You are obviously not going to have any, because you don’t know what it is.

          • islandbrewer

            Wow, look! You’re not banned from this blog! Mostly that’s because we find your clueless and fact free arguments entertaining.

            Now, if this were a catholic blog, you be gone within a few seconds.

          • Jasper

            I’d argue that Christianity has about 2000 years of earned Disrespect that it still needs to make up for before it breaks even, and has a chance of being a positive thing.

        • Kodie

          You don’t deserve god’s love and you don’t have it.

        • DavidMHart

          This is what I don’t get about Christianity. It takes an observable fact about humans – that no one is 100% perfect, and extrapolates this to an absurd conclusion – that everyone is so utterly evil as to deserve to be kept alive for all eternity in order to be tortured for all eternity – which would be daft enough in itself, but if you then ask why everyone is so evil as to deserve infinite punishment simply for the crime of existing, the only answer you can possibly give, as a Christian, is that God made us that way. Do you see why people have a hard time taking seriously your hypothesis that such a god could be described as good?

    • islandbrewer

      Oooh! Can I guess which “member” you are?

      • Link Daddy

        32 – M- Unemployed – 3 cats – 1 dog – 2 roommates?

        • Glodson

          That is…. oddly specific. Could have just said “the guy who evangelizes.” Or “the guy who brings pastries to meetings.”

          Now, if you are the latter… well, when I was a Christian, you were my favorite member.

    • Glodson

      Christians are all ONE in the Body of Christ…extensions of His Body on earth.

      Great. Relevance?

      Each member of the Body has a different function. All the parts are connected by the power of the Holy Spirit.

      St. Paul describes it best (for the mockers here, he even addresses “those members of the body which we deem less honorable”):

      Yes, but what does that have to do with the fact that prayer doesn’t work? This sounds like justifying why god seems to act through the community of believers rather than direct intervention.

      And to be honest, I did retract a joke I had in here before posting. While I think your comment is lacking in relevance and substance, it hasn’t gotten to the point of my feeling comfortable with tasteless jokes.

      Anyway, my point is that you didn’t address what was stated in the post by JT. Other communities can “intervene” in the same way as a Christian community. People do have different functions, but the generosity comes form the community itself. Not for an external divine force. Which is the point of the posting.

      As I stated in a different posting before. If god acts through surrogates, why does he feel the need to remove the volition of a believer when he could just arrange another solution which doesn’t require this? A solution that would be both more efficient and better for everyone? How do we know he’s acted? How do we know people didn’t take it upon themselves to act? And so on.

      Finally, I find your reading of Paul to be slightly problematic in taking the whole of Christianity as a body, given the commands of Jesus to maim one’s own body rather than risk an eternity in hell.

      • islandbrewer

        And I obviously do feel comfortable with tasteless jokes about members.

        • Glodson

          I thought about it. But this guy hasn’t done anything yet, compared to the last few people around here.

          I’m trying to not have a hair trigger. However, I am quite annoyed that it is a few sentences followed by a long Bible quote which ignored the substance of the original post.

          So… I’ll give him a chance since I’ve seen much worse. And that joke wasn’t bad. Wasn’t the joke I had planned.

      • Zinc Avenger

        Who cares about relevance? Just cram all the religious buzz-phrases you can think of into a single statement and let the endorphins released by the positive associations give you the fuzzy wuzzies.

        • Glodson

          @Zinc Avenger

          It is like the Zapp Brannigan of Christian Apologetics.

          Just read off Bible passages as quickly as you can without stopping.

          I find the most erotic part of theology is the boobies.

          • Zinc Avenger

            At times like this I like to quote: Genesis 1:1 – Revelation 22:21. Aaaaah. Ohhhh yes, THAT’s the Holy Spirit.

      • Link Daddy

        I was answering the following question from Mr. Eberhard:

        • Rain

          It was actually a rhetorical question. We already knew there were made up baloney apologetics and people like Paul the expert on invisible stuff. (Cuz we’re not dumb.)

        • Guest
        • Kodie

          Jesus Christ, who remembers you from 9 10 days ago? Remember yesterday when I called you an arrogant douchenozzle and you cried hypocrisy?

    • John H

      Holy wall of text, Batman! (Or should that be “wall of holy text”? :-P )

    • Drakk

      >> Christians are all ONE in the Body of Christ…extensions of His Body on earth.

      I get all sorts of emails offering to extend parts of my body. I’m not sure I’d want the procedure to involve christians though.

    • Kodie

      Why does your religion so heavily partake of metaphor only to take it dead serious literal or else? I also missed how this refers to the post at hand. Seriously, asking people to give you money and then they give it to you so you don’t have to get evicted is how people solve problems without god. Why do you people insist on taking everything warm and fuzzy that happens among humans as evidence of god’s interference in people’s free will? Plenty of times, on this blog and others, a call goes out to help, and atheists come through even though they don’t believe in a god or believe they are part of his cartel. How do you explain that?

      • Zinc Avenger

        Supplemental to Kodie’s question: If you are going to say “That’s GOD working through atheist hands!”, what then is the utility of prayer and faith, apart from to take generosity and selflessness in others and attribute it to divine mind control beams? How does free will work in a world where prayer works through human agency?

    • baal

      “Christians are all ONE in the Body of Christ.”

      I didn’t consent to the orgy :(.

  • Link Daddy

    I have been called many bad things for simply disagreeing about the existence of God. Have I made one hateful or derogatory remark to any of you? Why all the anger? What is so objectionable about telling you that I believe you are wrong about the existence of God? Aren’t you here to convince others of the validity of your arguments? Has anyone here given me ONE argument supporting the forum’s belief that God does not exist? Why cannot I just say that I believe God exists and leave it at that? Is the burden all upon me to prove to you that God does exist? Maybe I am just here to talk? Is that ok? Do you ever disagree on matters large or small with your parents, or siblings, or neighbors, or friends or enemies without frothing and grinding the incisors? Sheesh…
    KEEP CALM
    AND…

    • Glodson

      Has anyone here given me ONE argument supporting the forum’s belief that God does not exist?

      Null Hypothesis, the rejection of any claim with sufficient evidence. It is much the same reason why we don’t believe that Smurfs really exist, even if someone has a logical argument. It is logic and evidence. Provide evidence for the god, real evidence. In many ways, we aren’t saying that god(s) don’t exist in general. We are saying that, in general, there is insufficient evidence to accept the existence of any god.

      This is even before we get to the question of worship.

      Why cannot I just say that I believe God exists and leave it at that?

      You can. There’s been other Christians who chimed in on other things, admitted their religion, and we didn’t demand any proof of god. If the topic isn’t about prayers, or the existence of god, there won’t be a demand to back up the claim. In this case, the existence of god is relevant to the issue at hand. The nonexistence of god neatly explains why prayers are answered through human efforts.

      Is the burden all upon me to prove to you that God does exist?

      Yes. You are making the claim. When one makes the claim, the burden of proof is always on them. If we were talking about the existence of Zeus, and I said there’s no such thing, it would be on me to proof that Zeus doesn’t exist.

      Now, this is tricky. Proving a negative is…. well, hard. Really hard. Maybe even impossible in some cases. I cannot disprove the notion that there’s a teacup between here and Mars in orbit around the Sun. I can argue why it wouldn’t exist, how silly it is, and all that. But I couldn’t disprove it. This is Russel’s Teapot. And why the burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. It is a harder position to take, to make the claim.

      Maybe I am just here to talk?

      Look, you want to talk, that’s cool. But if you come into a topic on god, expect god stuff. Expect dissent, expect to be challenged. If you started in one a topic about the Moon Theme from Duck Tales about how cool the game is and people blasted you for believing in god, that wouldn’t be cool. But in a topic on prayer, being expected to uphold your end is expected.

      Do you ever disagree on matters large or small with your parents, or
      siblings, or neighbors, or friends or enemies without frothing and
      grinding the incisors?

      I suspect this is projection. Look, it is the internet. Part of this is that our tone is not communicated well through these tubes. So the language can get harsh to let you know that people are losing patience, or to add emphasis.

      And some of us can be like this. However, large or small is a wide category. I don’t tend to get up in arms over matters small. But the devotion of one’s life to a god that might not be there isn’t small.

    • http://www.facebook.com/norman.donnan Norm Donnan

      Well LD to be a “free thinker” you HAVE to think like us,and we had a “Reason rally”,but we are the only reasonable people we will acknowledge because only our reality is real,we reject your reality and replace it with our own.Even if you gave irrefutable evidence,if it didnt fit in with our world view….well it doesnt exist.See where we are coming from,and we have science to prove we are right….even though it doesnt,and carnt,well,no problem we take reality and replace it with our own.And yes we get a little uptite and insecure at times when people like you have a different opinion to us because we are reasonable free thinkers.Sheesh,what dont you get

      • islandbrewer

        Hi Norm! I think you should look up the term “projection.” Have a nice day!

      • Zinc Avenger

        Try it. Give us irrefutable evidence. Go on. We’re waiting. Take as much space as you need, and lay it out for us.

        Difficulty: State your assumptions, and make sure that they are assumptions that can be accepted by someone who does not share your faith. Example: If you assume there is a God, you won’t get very far, you’re just begging the question.

        Super Difficulty: Show it without recourse to the Bible, since the Bible proves God in exactly the same way the Koran proves Allah, the Tibetan Book of the Dead proves Buddhism, and Action Comics #1 proves Superman.

        • http://www.facebook.com/norman.donnan Norm Donnan

          Irrefutable evidence:creation.If you dont get it from creation,well l dont think its worth wasting any more time with eye witness accounts either.

          • Kodie

            Good, then go away, so the grown-ups can talk.

          • Zinc Avenger

            You didn’t state your assumption: “Creation” was created by God.

            So to prove God, you’re first assuming God. That is known as “begging the question”.

            Unless you’re not assuming that “creation” was created by God, in which case it doesn’t support your case.

            Edit: It occurs to me you might be using “creation” in either of two senses. Either “the act of creation” or “everything”. I assumed you mean “everything”. If you meant “the act of creation”, then you’re begging the question so hard you might hurt yourself.

          • Glodson

            Irrefutable evidence:creation.

            Circular reasoning is fun!

            I believe that God exists because the world exists, because god created the world, therefore he must exist!

            This isn’t fatally flawed reasoning at all!

            If only there was an alternative explanation for existence that doesn’t require a supernatural force and could be backed up with empirical evidence. If only there were people here who knew about this! That would be one big bang of evidence that could totally evolve this conservation.

            If you dont get it from creation,well l dont think its worth wasting any more time with eye witness accounts either.

            Huh? Eye witness accounts? Those notoriously unreliable things? We need eye witness accounts for what?

            As Zinc points out, there is a degree of uncertainty in what you mean by creation. Sounds like you mean everything, or you mean the act of creation itself.

            Doesn’t matter though, it is still begging the question, and a great example of circular reasoning. This pizza is delicious because pizza is delicious!

            (Your conclusion is also your premise, just in case you are wondering what we are talking about. As far as I know, the name of the term is a mistranslation of the original term from Latin which meant “assuming the initial point.” You have to assume the existence of god in order for your evidence to work. Without that assumption, your argument falls apart.)

          • baal

            You know the bible can’t prove itself? If I write the words, “i have magical powers and this text on this screen is the literal Truth so sayeth the god of this text” I still don’t get magical powers.

            Also, WLC and you still haven’t solved the ‘which god?’ problem even if we grant you ‘creation proves god’

          • Norm Donnan

            Theres nothing to be resolved Baal, there is only one God,people worship Him in differant ways

          • baal

            Followers of Huitzilopochtli or Vishnu may not share your views on the grand unified divine. I know that I, and most christian sects, do not.

          • Dez

            That’s lame. The sky is blue so no god. See how stupid that reasoning is. This is why you get dismissed so easily.

      • Kodie

        To enter a discussion, one ought to provide evidence to support one’s argument. To just spout off large sections of the bible and consider it a done deal is proselytization. You want to be considered a free thinker, you do have to agree to listen as well as talk. You can have your opinion, but your opinion isn’t interesting. I have told you before, Norm, participating in a discussion is not the same as whatever you think it is, this sharing your story like we’re in a campfire circle. Good for you, you believe, you are terrible at supporting your argument, and that aggravates people more than what you believe in that differs from what they believe. Playing the victim because we’re not convinced, grow impatient, and call you names? You are beneath the educational level of what a rational discussion is. If you believe in Jesus, you have to bring the evidence or else shut up and go away, because that’s boring. No shit, some people believe in Jesus for presupposed reasons, argumentum ad populum, and threats. Your work here is done, we’ve heard everything you had to say. We told you why it’s not convincing, you didn’t listen, you repeat yourself.

    • islandbrewer

      I have been called many bad things for simply disagreeing about the existence of God.

      Wrong. Totally wrong. Lots of people who believe in God don’t get called anything when they comment here. Want to know the reason (pretty sure you don’t, but let’s pretend that you do.)?

      You have been called “many bad things” because you trot out the same trite and tired arguments that we have rejected time and time again. You have been called “many bad things” because you FAIL to respond to our questions, while we have done the courtesy of responding to yours. You have been called “many bad things” because you adamantly refuse to examine your own position, while we are expected to reexamine ours every time someone like you, who discovers a tired old presuppositional argument for the first time, says to themselves “Oooh, those atheists have NEVER heard this before!”

      Have I made one hateful or derogatory remark to any of you?

      Yes. You just didn’t realize it.

      Why all the anger? What is so objectionable about telling you that I believe you are wrong about the existence of God?

      As we dodge and weave through the crowds of evangelists and christian apologists on the way to our schools, our workplaces, our cars, each of them with the belief that we atheists, in our christianity-soaked United States, simply haven’t yet “heard the good news,” we have to wonder if any of them realize, for one second, just how ridiculous they sound. There’s nothing objectionable about telling us you think we’re wrong. There is something objectionable about you not doing us the intellectual courtesy of responding to our questions, sidestepping issues, and failing to show the same courtesy that we’ve shown you in actually engaging in the conversation instead of throwing out bible quotes.

      Has anyone here given me ONE argument supporting the forum’s belief that God does not exist?

      Glodson explained the Null Hypothesis pretty well. That’s how science works. Go figure that out, and you’ll start to understand how it is that we don’t believe in leprechauns. (Then go and replace the word “leprechauns” with “God”.)

      Why cannot I just say that I believe God exists and leave it at that?

      I don’t know! Why didn’t you?

      Is the burden all upon me to prove to you that God does exist?

      Yup.

      Remarkable claims require remarkable evidence, and all that – be it giant invisible men who love us and are going to toture us for eternity or invisible garage dragons.

      Maybe I am just here to talk? Is that ok? Do you ever disagree on matters large or small with your parents, or siblings, or neighbors, or friends or enemies without frothing and grinding the incisors?

      I really haven’t given any thought to what motivates you, frankly, nor do I care. I am not, nor do I think anyone else here is, frothing or grinding dentition. Many of us are sighing, slapping our foreheads, and slowly shaking our heads at your obliviousness, which we see all the fucking time.

      KEEP CALM
      AND…

      … shove it up your ass?

    • kagekiri

      Hmm, accusations of blindness, whining about us being mean without addressing your own rudeness in posting random, unrelatable verses, telling us we’ll know Jesus is real eventually (yeah, I can tell this is a “Well, you’ll see on JUDGMENT DAY!” bit, aka “turn or burn!”), ignoring all arguments, preaching as if no one has said anything you can actually attempt to address, a whole load of false humility and false “care for non-believers”, saying we’re “frothing and grinding our teeth” in this very post, etc.

    • baal

      “simply disagreeing about the existence of God”
      If you think that’s the case, I recommend you find a therapist (secular, not religious). You have 2 goals. 1. empathy, learn to understand the emotions of others. 2. listening skills, kagekiri bent over backwards to educate you and many others have pointed out where you’re not paying attention to what’s actually being said.

  • http://www.facebook.com/norman.donnan Norm Donnan

    The architect of depression is satan not God,sorry to spoil your fun

    • islandbrewer

      [citation needed]

    • Zinc Avenger

      Well maybe we should take it up with the architect of Satan.

    • Loqi

      I once wrote a script that created art using random fractals and an evolutionary algorithm. It made some pretty crappy art. In other words, *I* made some pretty crappy art.

    • Kodie

      Blah blah blah I’m Norm!

    • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

      You’ve still got the problem of evil there, Norm. It’s clearly not a free will thing, because given the choice, no one chooses to be depressed. God lets Satan play with people’s brain chemistry because …? And God created Satan, yes? So Got lets Satan live because …?

      I await your answers with bated breath. Figuratively, anyways, because I can’t hold my breath for more than 2 minutes, and you won’t even see this until more time than that has passed.

      • http://www.facebook.com/norman.donnan Norm Donnan

        Not sure Femi,l guess we will all have to wait to find out the whys and wherefores.I dont think free will has much to do with depression at all,why did you think l did ?

        • http://twitter.com/sqlrob Rob

          Because Satan and free will is generally the excuse for even the existence of Satan.

        • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

          Well, because then why does God allow depression? Or rather, based on your characterization, allow Satan to cause depression? That doesn’t seem very all-good to me, especially since depression can and does lead to suicide, which is a major unforgivable sin to most Christian denominations. So tell me, why does God let Satan make people depressed? And why does God let Satan continue to exist at all? Doesn’t seem very benevolent nor powerful to me. And “mysterious ways” doesn’t cut it either- if I had a super awesome plan that involved killing and torturing people for the good of everyone (except those I’d killed and tortured, of course), maybe my plan isn’t so awesome. There’s no definition of good (and especially Good) that allows for that nonsense.

          The explanation I usually hear for “why does God allow evil” is “he gave us free will, and some people use it for evil”. But since depression has nothing to do with free will, and by some definitions actually circumscribes and reduces it, one can’t use that explanation to explain depression. I did not mean to imply that you thought depression was a matter of will, as I do not think you think so, but merely to head off that usual (and terrible) argument on the problem of evil.

          • Kodie

            I rather do think Norm thinks depression is a matter of will – i.e. if you invite satan in, you will suffer, and I rather do think he and Link Daddy will assume the path out of depression is Jesus, some kind of revival meeting or prayer chain, such as described in the OP. If you start with the first brick called Jesus, you can build such a house of bullshit out of it. What I hate most about religious beliefs is how it thinks it’s helping the most while it’s ignoring actual ways to help people in need. They think god and satan have a battle inside your body, and billions of people’s bodies (body including the brain, aka the “mind” or “soul”). That’s why they’re so scared of what will happen if they like members of the same sex – those homosexuals who commit suicide were depressed by satan as a consequence, not by having been rejected outright by godly fucking judgmental, arrogant assholes and abused and sent away by their parents and people they thought were their very good friends. They are so screwed up and out of balance with the real world that they can’t admit that what they believe does real damage. “Someday” we will all know they are telling the truth! If people could just take Jesus into their lives, satan would be driven out and nobody would do things that end them up cast off from society. Just be like the rest of us, just go along with the ridiculous claims I’m making, and when you die, you will have it all confirmed, it was all for the best, even though it didn’t seem quite right at the time.

            No, Norm, or Link Daddy, you do not get to slink away without explaining by what mechanism you know and which the rest of us may know what you’re talking about. None of this “when you die, you will finally agree with me, but I can’t and won’t bother to explain it now, since you are obviously too blind to see the delusions I see!”
            You cannot just say that the architect of depression is satan with no supporting evidence for that, especially since we have studied the brain and continue to develop medicines to alleviate depression. None of your made-up stories – you have to break it down how it works or fuck the goddamn fuck off, and stop crying that you are held to the same standard as anyone else.

          • Norm Donnan

            Hi Kodie,just wondering,are you from a Dutch heritage??? I carnt believe how much you remind me of my mother in law. Maybe German but more likely Dutch.

    • Glodson

      Then if Satan created the depression, then why doesn’t god prevent this from his followers? Why does god allow Satan to muck about in our brains to create the necessary chemical reactions for depression to exist?

      • http://twitter.com/sqlrob Rob

        Satan is more powerful than God, duh. He’s omnipotent + 1.

        Or neither of them exist. Whatever.

        • Glodson

          Or we could have a god that is not all knowing and not all powerful, and as such couldn’t prevent this somehow despite being more powerful.

          I would say that saying god is still all-knowing and all-powerful but lets Satan design depression to inflict on us makes god even worse. To not interfere when a supernatural entity finds ways to make life harder for some people and their families, is pretty evil.

          • http://twitter.com/sqlrob Rob

            Doing it on a bet is even more evil.

          • Glodson

            Poor Job.

          • Zinc Avenger

            Hey, God replaced his family with another to make up for it, that’s just as good, right? Humans are interchangeable, right? No harm, no foul, apart from all the death and suffering, right? Right?

            Note to self: No matter how good the potential payoff, don’t bet against an omniscient being.

    • baal

      Hi Norm! Welcome to JT’s blog. I don’t recognize your nym so pleasantries and all.

      As a man, I find your avatar hot. More on point, depression is a serious physiologically based issue and can’t be prayed away / solved by inserting Satan in the discussion.

      • Norm Donnan

        Thx Baal, l know some things you at this point you havent experienced yet which you would rather not acknowledge because to do so would cause more issues for you in life and beyond.

        • baal

          Oh the many things I’ve seen down on Mulberry Street. I’m happily perverted so I’m game to go investigate whatever you think I’ve missed. I’m lacking a belief in the ‘beyond’ so that won’t motivate me much, however.

          I also can’t tell if you talking about sex, gods or the intersection between them. On the chance it’s relevant, personal experiences of alien abduction (or deities that talk personally to you) are not good evidence for said aliens or deities. See also google for “induced religious experience neuroscience drugs”.

    • Dez

      You didn’t since neither is real. If they are, prove it.


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