John McCain on Fox News: Muslims thanking god is no more offensive than Christians thanking god.

Where did this guy go in 2008?  Seriously.

There was nothing for McCain to gain for telling the truth on Fox News there and plenty for him to lose politically by saying that Christians do the same thing they find deplorable in other faiths to an audience guaranteed to be outraged at having their hypocrisy exposed.  And McCain set the record straight anyway.  Sure McCain sold himself out to the political machine in order to run for president, but there was integrity in that moment and I can respect that, as brief as it was.

About JT Eberhard

When not defending the planet from inevitable apocalypse at the rotting hands of the undead, JT is a writer and public speaker about atheism, gay rights, and more. He spent two and a half years with the Secular Student Alliance as their first high school organizer. During that time he built the SSA’s high school program and oversaw the development of groups nationwide. JT is also the co-founder of the popular Skepticon conference and served as the events lead organizer during its first three years.

  • Mackinz

    There is more sanity in McCain than that one moment on Faux Noise. He was one of the Republicans who helped ended the presidential nominee gridlock and, in general, has been toeing the party lines as, what seems to me, one of the few moderate Republicans in the Senate.

    Though we have disagreements, I’m willing to say that McCain is one of the only Republicans I would vote for if I lived in Arizona.

  • baal

    The look on the 2 stooges faces was priceless. McCain’s flip flop into pandering to the religiloons on the right when he ran with Palin has soured me on him as a politician, however.

    • Richie Tipsy Kariuki

      I’d rather this than him continuing to pander to loons though..

  • Gehennah

    I was a big supporter of McCain early in the elections of ’08. I thought he was a great guy. He was a centralist for the most part (leaned a tad to the right which I can accept) and was willing to make her own side upset and walk across the isles if needed.

    But then he lost his mind when he tried to get the nomination and went far right, and I lost all respect for the guy.

  • King Dave

    “Muslims thanking god is no more offensive than Christians thanking god.”

    Right, but no less either.

  • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

    We have all broken God’s law. We have all stolen, lied, looked with lust (adultery of the heart according to God) . Because God is a just and holy God, he must punish sin (like a just and good judge who punishes a murderer by sending him to prison.) Each of our sins against an infinitely good God is an infinite offense. God’s prison is hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm never dies. The Bible says God is rich in mercy and loving and He made a way for us so that we don’t have to go to hell. He sent His Son, Jesus, fully God and fully man to live a perfect and sinless life and to die on the cross as payment for our sins. On the third day he was resurrected and defeated death and sin. God has two requirements of us. That we repent of our sins (turn from our sins, turn from our worldly ways) and turn towards Christ and that we believe in and put our trust in Christ’s perfect life and sacrificial death on the cross. So please, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

    • Gehennah

      If god was rich in mercy then he wouldn’t offer an eternal punishment for a finite crime.
      The god that you worship is not all good. He is an insane monster.

      • Dr Joseph

        >If god was rich in mercy then he wouldn’t offer an eternal >punishment for a finite crime.

        1) The Bible doesn’t consider defiance of God a “finite crime.”

        2) The sin of defiance of God CONTINUES in Hell, so this is no different than the fact that prison inmates can commit new crimes while in prison and thereby accrue more years of incarceration as punishment.

        So your claim is a failure of basic logic.

        >The god that you worship is not all good. He is an insane monster.

        No. You’ve simply demonstrated that you disapprove of his justice. Prison inmates complain about their judges in exactly the same ways.

        • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

          My “defiance of God” is that I don’t think he exists.

          Hell would, at least, provide some evidence otherwise. However, I wouldn’t be allowed to change my mind once the evidence was presented to me. My life is finite- probably less than 120 years. So for finite crimes, I would be condemned to eternal damnation. Any human being can only ever commit finite crimes, because we have finite lives.

          And yeah, torturing people for eternity? Torturing them at all? That’s evil. There is no way a good entity would torture anyone, ever, nor turn them over to his pet torturer and watch from afar. If I, a super flawed human being, can see that torture is Not Acceptable Ever, I’m pretty sure an omniscient deity can figure it out too.

        • Rob

          No, the failure of logic is when there is no demonstration of the axioms.

        • phantomreader42

          1) If the bible truly says that not believing in your imaginary friend is infinitely worse than torture, rape, murder, or genocide, then that’s not an indictment of atheists, it’s an indictment of the bible.
          2) Your assertion is wholly unsupported, and is nothing more than your own made-up excuse so you can blame those whose torture you fantasize about while masturbating for the unjust punishment you imagine being imposed on them for your depraved entertainment.
          3) Prison inmates in civilized countries are not burned alive for the perverse amusement of corrupt judges and their sycophants.

      • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

        God is infinitely righteous, holy and good. Each one of our sins is an infinite offense to an infinitely good God. So an infinite offense must be punished by an infinite sentence, which is Hell.

        But God made a way for us so that we would not have to go to hell. He sent His son, Jesus, fully God and fully man to die on the cross. Jesus has infinite worth, and so He paid price for our sins so that justice could be served. Jesus rose from the dead on the third day. Our fine has been paid and God can dismiss our case. God requires that we turn from our sin (repent) and believe or put our trust in Jesus, and the sacrifice He made for us.

        So please, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

        • Rob

          “God is infinitely righteous, holy and good.”

          The god that orders genocides, has wiped out the planet, destroyed entire cities, that god?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            The God of the Bible. Yes, that one.

            Wiping out the planet. I’m assuming you are talking about the flood at the time of Noah.

            5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

            So yes, God does punish those who are wicked. Usually He is patient with us and allows us the opportunity to repent of our sins and put our trust in Jesus for our entire lives. But sometimes, He punishes the wicked, as in the case of the flood.

            Do you consider yourself to be a good person? Not by our very low standard, but by the standard of the Bible. Jesus said, be perfect as my Heavenly Father is perfect. That means if you have sinned once, you have fallen short of God’s standard. God gave us commandments so that we would know we have sinned against Him. That’s why we know that lying, stealing, adultery and murder are wrong.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Really? Jews know people aren’t perfect. We have a whole day for atoning, called Yom Kippur. The people you wronged, you must go and ask forgiveness from. It’s only sins against God (such as breaking the Sabbath) that one can ask God’s forgiveness for. It is also a fast day for two reasons- one is atonement, the other is to remind us how much being hungry sucks and hone our empathy for the poor who are hungry not by choice.

            That whole flood thing was pre-Jesus, by the way. I don’t think believing in someone that wasn’t going to show up for at least 500 years, maybe close to 1,000 years, would have helped very much. Seriously, what the fuck is with Christians rewriting OT stories into Jesus stories? And what did the poor animals do to deserve dying, not to mention the plants and insects? The flood story is the story of an adolescent god throwing a tantrum and then, seeing the utter devastation, promising to never ever do it again because, oops! Clearly not perfect, clearly not nice, and clearly not demanding perfection either.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            There are many prophesies of Jesus in the Old Testament. Jesus fulfilled those prophesies. The first one was in Genesis Chapter 3 vs 14

            14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

            “Cursed are you above all livestock
            and all wild animals!
            You will crawl on your belly
            and you will eat dust
            all the days of your life.
            15 And I will put enmity
            between you and the woman,
            and between your offspring[a] and hers;
            he will crush[b] your head,
            and you will strike his heel.”

            So the offspring of the women will crush the head of the serpent.

            When Jesus lived a perfect life, died for our sins and was resurrected from the dead, He defeated death and sin. We have to repent of our sins and put our trust in Christ to have eternal life.

          • Mary

            if the serpent’s head is crushed, then how is it that he can strike his heel?

            I know Christians believe the snake is Satan even though that is not mentioned in the story. But notice that the snake has offspring also. The battle is between the SNAKE’S OFFSPRING and the woman’s offspring. So that can’t refer to Satan.

            This just seems to describe the instinctive hatred and fear that we have about snakes. And of course we need to be careful not to step on one.

            Frankly I would be more interested in how the Hebrews interpreted this story. After all, it is their scripture. What you are doing is reading into the story something that isn’t there.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            At the cross Satan “bruised” Christ’s heal, but because of Christ’s death and resurrection, He crushed Satan’s head.and won a complete victory over him.

            Yes, there is enmity between the offspring. The Pharisees were “children of the devil according to John the Baptist and Jesus. Throughout history there has been a conflict between Satan and God, Satan’s children and God’s children. In fact, it wasn’t long after that Cain murdered Abel, for Cain was “of that wicked one.”

          • Mary

            Well all you have is a hypothesis of what the story means. You do not know what the original author intended it to mean, which is my point. The fact is that Satan was not mentioned in the story nor are the Pharisees or even Jesus. These are later interpretations.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Fair enough. The Bible is infallible, but my interpretation is not. The whole Bible is remarkably consistent I would encourage you to read it with a humble heart and decide for yourself.

          • Mary

            ‘God gave us commandments so that we would know we have sinned against Him. That’s why we know that lying, stealing, adultery and murder are wrong”

            Believe it or not, people knew right from wrong before the ten commandments ever existed. We know that lying, stealing, adultery and murder are wrong because we have all have a conscience. Morality is based in empathy towards others.If we need God to tell us how to behave then we would all be sociopaths.

            Someone once said “We are not punished FOR our sins, rather we are punished BY our sins”.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes you are right, we did know right from wrong before the ten commandments. God put morality in our heart. He gave us the ten commandments as a mirror, so that we would see our sin because He wrote the commandments on our heart.

            So please, repent of your sins against God and put your trust in Jesus

        • DavidMHart

          “Each one of our sins is an infinite offense to an infinitely good God.
          So an infinite offense must be punished by an infinite sentence, which
          is Hell.”

          This is absurd. According to your own theology, your god made us incapable of not sinning. If he is omnipotent and omniscient, then he must have deliberately made us incapabale of not sinning. And if he is omniscient then he must by definition have known from the outset that only some of us would exploit his loophole.

          This means that your god, according to your own theology, deliberately created a world full of humans in the full and certain knowledge that he would be torturing some of them for eternity, despite being perfectly capable of creating a world in which no one gets tortured forever.

          Thus your god would be infinitely evil if he existed, and we should be very glad that there’s no good evidence that he does.

          The standard Christian excuse, “free will”, won’t wash, because, whatever free will means (and it’s not at all obvious, but let’s set that aside for now), an omnipotent and all-powerful god would be able to populate a universe with beings with free will, all of whom would use it to do whatever it takes to stay in his good books.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Two things. God did give us free will and we chose to sin. That does not excuse us. But allowing people to sin instead of making them robots does deserve an answer.

            By allowing sin in the world, we are able to better see, understand and give glory to God’s holiness, His righteousness, His love, and His mercy.

            So please, repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus

          • DavidMHart

            Either we are able to choose to sin (and therefore also able to choose not to sin) or we aren’t – we are all simply hard-wired to sin. If some of us are able to choose not to sin then those people don’t need to repent of anything and don’t need to put your trust in jesus.

            So which is it? You can’t have it both ways. Either your god made a species of humans knowing full well that he was going to judge them all to be defective, or he didn’t. You decide.

            “By allowing sin in the world, we are able to better see, understand and
            give glory to God’s holiness, His righteousness, His love, and His
            mercy.”

            How do you know? You have to explain why an omnipotent god, who is by definition capable of making us perfectly able to see and understand his righteousness, love and mercy without having to introduce sin, nevertheless chose to do so.

            To an omnipotent being, there is literally nothing good that that can achieve by means of unleashing some evil on the world that they cannot achieve equally well without unleashing that evil. That’s what omnipotent means. So again, you must choose: does your god unleash unnecessary evil on the world just because he wants to make us suffer a bit, or is he unable to work things any other way? That is – is he at least a bit evil, or a bit powerless?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes God created Adam and Eve and they were able to either choose to sin or choose not to sin. They chose to sin and sin and death entered into the world. God allowed it to happen.

            Although sin entered the world through one person, salvation is also by one person. Jesus, who lived a perfect life, and died on the cross for our sins and rose from the dead. Salvation is for those who repent of their sins and put their trust in Christ.

          • DavidMHart

            How does that even begin to answer my points? Does your god create people who are going to not sin, or does he create us all hard-wired to sin? That is – assuming you think the story of Adam and Eve is literally true (and come on, you think the story of Adam and Eve is literally true? What are you, five years old?), then it means this:

            Either your god deliberately decided make sin hereditary – that is, he was able to make sin not transmissible down the generations, so that everyone starts with a blank slate and some of at least manage to avoid sin, and thus avoid needing Jesus, but he chose to do that to us anyway, in which case he is evil, or he was unable to set things up any other way, in which case, he has some severe limitations as a supposedly all-powerful being.

            You decide.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes, the story of Adam and Eve is literally true. It is much more realistic than that fairy tale for adults – Evolution.

            Yes, sin entered through one person and thus can be saved through one person, Jesus.

            But since you don’t believe in God, that doesn’t matter. Let me ask you this, do you think you are a good person? Have you ever lied, stolen, looked with lust (adultery), or blasphemed the name of God? Then you will be without excuse on Judgment day. But God offers eternal life to those who repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus, His perfect life, sacrificial death and resurrection on the third day.

          • DavidMHart

            If evolution is a fairy tale for adults, why is it taught in every reputable university biology department in the world? That is to say, if it is false to say that the current diversity of life is the result of millions of years of gradual divergence and speciation, evidenced by mountains of evidence from fossils, molecular biology, species distribution, real-time lab experiments, geology, radiology and much too much else to mention in a short comment, and if it is true to say that the current diversity of life is the result of a magical being somehow pinging everything into existence as described in a book of ancient Hebrew mythology, there would have to be one of two things going on:

            1) a truly colossal conspiracy among the world’s biological scientists, dwarfing the supposed conspiracy among governments to cover up the evidence of extraterrestrial visitors, or

            2) a god who created the universe so that the harder you try to honestly study nature and figure out how things got to be the way they are, the more deceived you become and the more wrong your answer gets – i.e. a god who deliberate sets out to mislead us about reality.

            Granted, a god who has no problem with creating a universe full of sentient beings in the full and certain knowledge that he will be condemning some of them to infinite torture is certainly evil enough to create a universe full of false evidence of deep time and evolutionary change so as to deliberately make us less likely to believe in him, but is that really a god you would want to defend?

            Once again, you decide: is it
            1) unimaginably enormous conspiracy, or 2) douchebag deity?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            God can be clearly seen in creation.

            People don’t want there to be a God, because then they would be accountable for their sins. That’s why it’s easier for most people to believe that nothing created everything and explosions cause order, because it imagines a system whereby there is no one to be accountable to.

            That way, no one has to answer for lying, for stealing things, for their thoughts (looking with lust is adultery.)

            Despite all this, God sent a savior, Jesus, to die for our sins, and raise from the dead. So please repent of your sins and believe in Jesus.

          • DavidMHart

            People who want to get away with burglary don’t generally decide to not believe in the police. People who want to get away with cheating on their spouse don’t tend to pretend to themselves that their spouse doesn’t exist. That’s just not how rational minds operate – and if it’s how your mind operates, then please understand that you are very unusual.

            No. The reason people who don’t believe in gods don’t believe in gods is usually the same reasons people who don’t believe in fairies, leprechauns, vampires, and astrology don’t believe in fairies, leprechauns, vampires and astrology – and also the same reason that they don’t believe in other gods: a lack of good evidence that they exist.

            I’m sure you have convinced yourself that the existence of the universe backs up the supernatural tales you have been indoctrinated into, but please understand that that is not what is going on in most people’s brains – and it takes some chutzpah for you to presume that it is.
            One might as well say that the reason you don’t believe in Huitzilopochtli is because you don’t want to have to carry out human sacrifices, even though you know he will judge you harshly for failing to do so.

            It also gets things backwards. If I was able to just change my beliefs according to what I wanted to be true, then, if I really wanted to get away with stuff, I would become a Christian, because then I could sin all I wanted, knowing that I just needed to ask Jesus’s forgiveness at the crucial moment. And if, as you seem to believe, I was kind of aware on some level that your particular god existed, then, by choosing not to believe, I’d be choosing to live a life where I am morally accountable to my fellow humans, and get to suffer for all eternity, no matter how well I behave. Your theology has, as Sam Harris once phrased it, nothing at all to do with moral accountability.

            And quit it with the thoughtcrimes. We can no more not feel sexual desire for those we find sexually attractive than we can stop breathing indefinitely, or stop finding the taste of sugar sweet. And having sex with a willing partner (assuming no one else is going to be harmed) is not like genuinely victim-creating behaviour anyway. The weird and deeply orwellian assertion that merely imagining doing an (allegedly) evil action is as bad as actually doing it is absurd, and clearly a meme that has been inserted into Christianity to try to persuade people they are sick in order to sell them the cure. It has nothing to do with how good and evil actually play out in the real world. In the real world, if two people think about committing a particular crime, and one of them goes ahead and does it, while the other one decides on balance not to, we would have no problem at all in considering the first person to be the more wicked of the two.

            And given that we cannot consciously control what thoughts will arise in our heads, anyone who would punish us for having thoughts that we cannot not have – that we have no control over – is a cruel tyrant. The more you tell us about your god, the more evil he appears. This ought to worry you more than it does.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I must have hit a nerve with the thought crime thing. Did you know that hatred is murder of the heart.

            You have Jesus teachings all wrong. Repenting of your sins (turning from your sins) and putting your trust in Christ has the exact opposite effect. You realize you have sinned against a holy God and you strive to please Him by loving Him and loving your neighbor. You realize that you are accountable to a holy God and that you strive to please Him. That is a life of accountability for your actions.

            We when die, we will all kneel before a just and holy God and we will be judged by His standard. Because we have all sinned, we will be found guilty and the place of punishment is hell. Because of His great love for us that none should perish, He sent His son, Jesus, fully God and fully man to live a perfect life, and die on the cross for our sins and to be resurrected on third day.

            Eternal life is freely given to those who repent of their sins and put their trust in Christ.

          • DavidMHart

            “Did you know that hatred is murder of the heart.”

            No it isn’t. Don’t be ridiculous. Imagining an action is not the same as doing it. If you are unable to understand that, then your religion has profoundly warped your moral compass. Sure, you can say that painting go-faster stripes on your car is as reprehensible as actually driving it at three times the speed limit, but here in the real world, we recognise a hierarchy of good and bad, and we regognise that carrying out a bad deed is a lot worse than merely imagining carrying out a bad deed (though we do arrest people for attempted crimes – but that is only when one has gone past simply imagining doing something and actually decided to do it, and started to take steps towards doing it.

            If you think that simply disliking someone is morally equivalent to murdering them, you’ve got a hell of a lot of explaining to do if you want us to accept that (and no, “it says so in the Bible” isn’t an explanation; it’s the source of your claim, but you’ve still got to demonstrate why it’s true).

            You have Jesus teachings all wrong. Repenting of your sins (turning
            from your sins) and putting your trust in Christ has the exact opposite
            effect.

            Leaving aside the fact that quite a lot of Christians are just as capable of bad behaviour as everyone else, you have missed the point. If I thought there was a god who would hold me accountable for my actions but offer me forgiveness if I believed in Jesus, and if I wanted to live an unethical life and avoid being held responsible, I wouldn’t convince my self that that god didn’t exist (which is almost impossible to do while consciously aware that you’re doing it anyway), I would set things up so that I got away with as much as I could for as long as I could before finally doing the Jesus thing.

            It is your theology that completely makes a mockery of any kind of moral accountability. Here in the real world, we hold each other morally accountable for our actions. Sure, it sucks that some people get away with enormous cruelty, and other suffer terribly for doing the right thing, but we strive for justice and do the best we can under less-than ideal circumstances.

            In your fantasy universe, it is perfectly possible for a person to live a life of utter viciousness, and come to Jesus at the last moment, and be rewarded with eternal bliss, while another person lives a life of extraordinary compassion, self-sacrifice and kindness, motivated only by concern for their fellow humans, giving no thought to the supernatural, and be punished for it with eternal torture. This schema – which, as I said above, has absolutely nothing to do with moral accountability, is so glaringly, obviously unjust that you must have had to work really hard to blind yourself to the cruelty of it.

            Because we have all sinned

            You still haven’t answered my question: why did God make us all incapable of not sinning? Is he evil, or is he less than all-powerful? Those are the only two realistic options.

            You see what has happened here. Your religious commitments have so utterly warped your moral compass that you have been forced to redefine the most collossal evil imaginable as ‘good’. I can’t think of anything more evil than condemning someone to eternal torture simply for the ‘crime’ of being human…especially if it was me that made them human in the first place. If what you say about your god is true – that he made us all incapable of living up to his standards, and throws a lifeline only to some of us (those that are able to believe a wildly implausible story, and luck enough to hear it) while condemning the rest of us not merely to oblivion – a peaceful non-existence – but to eternal torture, then he is a being of infinite evil and it really doesn’t reflect well on you that you’d try to defend him.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            My point was that God’s standard is so high that our thought life is measured as well. It was not to suggest that there are not degrees of sin. Of course actual murder is worse than hatred. But hatred can lead to murder and so it is still sinning in God’s eyes.

            Yes, it is possible for someone to repent at the last minute, but that is not the normal case and no one knows when they will die. There are many people who are young and today will be their last day. So a deathbed confession is not the norm. But Jesus paid the price for our sins, and we only have to repent and put our trust in Him to have eternal life. The two thieves on the cross are the perfect example. One mocked Jesus and told Jesus that if He was really God, then why not save Himself. But the other thief had a repentant heart and said that he deserved the punishment he was getting but Jesus was innocent and did not. That is why Jesus said, today you will be with me in paradise.

            God didn’t make robots. He made Adam and Eve sinless and gave them the option to choose and they chose to sin. God allowed it, but made us with free will to choose. And sin and death entered the world at that time and we are all held accountable for that sin. But don’t fuss, because we all sin individually, so it’s not like our only sin was the original one. But while sin entered the world through one person, salvation also comes through one person in Jesus, fully God and fully man, to live a perfect life and die on the cross as a substitution for our sins and was raised from the dead on the third day. So please repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ.

            In my universe, no one gets away with anything. All sin, all viciousness, all murder, all rapists all our works are paid for. Either in hell, or on the cross by Jesus.

            To follow Jesus, there is a higher moral accountability. I am commanded to love my neighbor and to love my enemies.

            My moral compass is not warped. I only share with you the very high standard that God has for us. Feel free to take it up with Him if you don’t think it’s fair.

          • DavidMHart

            “we are all held accountable for that sin”

            You still haven’t given me a straight answer: Did god make us (at least some of us) capable of not sinning, or did he make everyone sufficiently defective that no one could possibly live up to his standards? If he made us all so defective that none of us could possibly live up to his standards, then he is either evil (because, being omnipotent, he could by definition have made all of us able to live up to his standards, in a way that still preserves your precious free will but chose not to), or he is not omnipotent.

            Give me a straight answer: stop skirting around the issue. A god who knowingly and deliberately sets things up so that some of us will be torured for eternity must be either evil or incompetent if ‘evil’ and ‘incompetence’ mean anything at all. You want to defend your view, start actually defending it.

            “In my universe, no one gets away with anything. All sin, all
            viciousness, all murder, all rapists all our works are paid for. Either
            in hell, or on the cross by Jesus.”

            If I do some evil act, and someone else gets punished for it instead of me, then I have got away with it. That’s what “getting away with it” means. If you want to play humpty dumpty with words, that’s your prerogative, but you see how dishonest your religion is compelling you to be?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I have given you a straight answer, but I will try to explain in more detail to make it clear. God made Adam and Eve capable of not sinning and they chose to sin. And so sin and death has been inherited through Adam and Eve’s and so you and I are only sinful. Humanity was judged through Adam and Eve. Lest you think yourself different, if you were Adam then you would have sinned too. You also commit many sins in your lifetime and you are responsible for your actions.

            But God also saved the world through one man Jesus, who lived a perfectly righteous life and died on the cross as punishment for our sins and rose again on the third day. Eternal life with God in heaven is available to all those who repent of their sin and put their trust in Christ.

          • DavidMHart

            Nope, sorry, you’re still trying to have it both ways. If you can say with confidence that everyone is a sinner, then that means that no one is capable of not-sin, for all practical purposes in the real world. For it to be true that we are capable of not sinning, you would have to be able to produce examples of people who managae to not sin (ordinary humans, of course – Jesus doesn’t count because in your theology he is also God, and therefore gets to decide what is and isn’t sin in the first place.

            You are worshipping a god who deliberately set us all up to fail and then only rescues some of us by extending his salvation only to those credulous enough to believe a wacky myth about an undead Jewish preacher-magician. And you are astonishingly unable to see how cruel this is. Can you think of any act more evil than condemning someone to eternal torture for simply being the way you made them?

      • Joseph O Polanco

        You’re right. He wouldn’t and he doesn’t: http://bit.ly/17fVMYm

    • Rob

      First, demonstrate God exists.

      Difficulty: empirical evidence only. No bible quotes.

      • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

        O.K. although Bible quotes are my favorite. Let’s use rational thought and start at the very beginning.

        The very existence of the universe itself is evidence that there is a God. There are only three possibilities:

        1. The universe is eternal. This one has actually been utterly rejected by the scientific community. The motion of the galaxies, the background radiation echo and other evidence (such as the universe is expanding and cooling) points to overwhelming evidence that it sprang to existence at a point in time. Pretty tough to support this one.

        2. The universe created itself. So there was nothing, and then Bang, nothing created everything. This one is hard for me to even imagine. I know people try to “re-define” nothing to be matter and anti matter that exploded into the universe. The attempt to redefine nothing is the attempt to try to leap over the problem of nothing creating everything.

        3. A higher being that always existed created the universe (and also created time). Of the three options, this clearly is the most rational. If something exists now, then rationally, something must have always existed.

        I’ll wait for your response before we continue this discussion but I just wanted to add that did you know that God gave us a conscience so that we’d know right from wrong? That way, we would know when we lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, we know that we are breaking God’s law and sinning. God is a just judge and is angry with the wicked every day. Because God is good, holy and righteous, He must punish sin and has chosen Hell as the place of eternal punishment. God made a way for us to avoid hell because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. He sent is son, Jesus, to die on the cross as payment for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day. For all who turn from their sin (repent) and put their trust in Christ, God will grant eternal life.

        So please, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

        • Compuholic

          The very existence of the universe itself is evidence

          The existence of X is evidence for the existence of X and says exactly nothing on how it came to be.

          There are only three possibilities:

          How do you know?

          The universe is eternal. This one has actually been utterly rejected by the scientific community.

          You might want to look up “Multiverse”

          I know people try to “re-define” nothing to be matter and anti matter that exploded into the universe.

          Sorry, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Nothing is not being redefined as (anti-) matter. There are a couple of values that are always conserved. Anti-matter is what balances out matter so that the sum-total is zero (nothing).

          A higher being that always existed created the universe (and also created time). Of the three options, this clearly is the most rational. If something exists now, then rationally, something must have always existed.

          No, that is the cop-out of intellectual cowards. First of all the notion of “creating time” is incoherent babble. If something is created then there was a point in time when it didn’t exist and after it was created it does exist. If there is no time, then there are no points in time. So how do you create something without a notion of time? And even if something always existed it is not necessarily a being.

          So even if those are the only 3 options: 1 and 2 actually are at least coherent concepts whereas 3 is not.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Hi Compuholic,

            Perhaps a better way to explain it are there are “three categories” of how the universe came into existence.

            Courtesy of Wiki
            The multiverse (or meta-universe) is the hypothetical set of infinite or finite possible universes (including the historical universe we consistently experience) that together comprise everything that exists and can exist: the entirety of space, time,matter, and energy as well as the physical laws and constants that describe them. The term was coined in 1895 by the American philosopher and psychologist William James.[1] The various universes within the multiverse are sometimes called parallel universes

            So the above could fall into Category 1 – The universe always existed. Whether it’s multiple universes or a string of universes they either had to always exist or

            Category 2 – all these universes created themselves

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I know people try to “re-define” nothing to be matter and anti matter that exploded into the universe.

            Sorry, you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. Nothing is not being redefined as (anti-) matter. There are a couple of values that are always conserved. Anti-matter is what balances out matter so that the sum-total is zero (nothing).

            Yes, I only offered one “re-define” of nothing with the anti-matter reference. You are saying that nothing is the sum total of something that adds up to nothing. However, your “There are a couple of values that are always conserved” is something. Nothing to me is nothing. So either there was really “nothing” or there was “something”

            Nothing cannot create anything, so to me the above argument falls into something always existed.

            Did you know that Jesus said, whoever looks upon a person to lust after them has already committed adultery in their heart? Jesus said be perfect as my heavenly father is perfect, that means if you sin just once, you fall short of God’s standard. Because God is a just judge, He must punish sin. The place of punishment He has chosen is Hell. But God made a way for us. He sent His son Jesus, fully God and fully Man to live a perfect life and die on the cross as a substitution for our sins and on the third day He rose from the dead. For all those who turn from their sin (repent) and believe in Jesus, will be saved.

          • Rob

            “He sent His son Jesus, fully God and fully Man to live a perfect life and die on the cross as a substitution for our sins and on the third day He rose from the dead.”

            For someone sent by god, there’s remarkably little documentation that isn’t the bible. As in none.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/archaeology

            “He sent His son Jesus, fully God and fully Man to live a perfect life and die on the cross as a substitution for our sins and on the third day He rose from the dead.”

            Thanks for re-posting this. It’s my favorite part.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Substitutionary atonement is immoral and unjust. The one harmed is not God, so God cannot forgive the wrong done. It’s a cop-out for actually taking responsibility for one’s actions and the consequences thereof.

            The whole idea of human sacrifice is also pretty sick, really.

          • Mary

            Even if the one harmed was God, there is no reason why God couldn’t just forgive.The whole idea of blood atonement as I understand it was something the Hebrews got from pagans who sacrificed animals. Christians will argue that blood sacrifice was necessary but since God supposedly made the rule himself then whole idea falls apart. God has free will to do what he wants so really what it amounts to is that God would have been playing games. In fact there is no reason why he couldn’t have dispensed with the whole drama by just forgiving Adam and Eve. Pretty simple really.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Well yeah. The only reason the ultra-Orthodox (Judaism’s version of fundagelical Christians) don’t do sacrifices anymore is they have to be performed at the Temple, which is still very broken and sitting under the Dome of the Rock. Before the Romans kicked the Jews out of Palestine ~2,000 years ago, animal sacrifice was very much still a thing. You had some scapegoats (literally, goats driven into the wilderness to die as carriers of sin), but most sacrifices were just that; a sacrifice of a precious source of protein to get forgiveness and/or good fortune in the future. They weren’t really different from pagan sacrifices at all.

            I don’t get how Christians got from there to human substitutionary sacrifice though. I really don’t. And you’re absolutely right, if God made the rules, God can damned well change them without any of this silly rigamarole.

          • Mary

            “I don’t get how Christians got from there to human substitutionary sacrifice though”

            Human sacrifice is just an extention of the same kind of thinking that led to animal sacrifices. My theory is that Jesus was a teacher and reformer of the Jewish religion. He probably was executed by the Romans who were disturbed that he had such a following. There had already been some unrest in the area and they were afraid of a revolt by the Jews. Anyway some of his followers probably did not want to accept his death and so their ideology morphed into the idea that he was God and paid the ultimate price for mankind. It would have seemed logical to them to make the leap between animal sacrifice and human sacrifice.

            I think the same kind of transitional thinking explains a lot of Christian ideology and ceremonies. Baptism was based on the ritual bathing that the Jews already engaged in, for example. And of course the Passover meal led to the communion ceremony.

            A lot of things had to be dropped too, because it became a mostly Gentile religion. So bye-bye dietary restrictions and circumcision.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            That’s definitely one possibility.

            The other is that Jesus is a purely mythical figure, a pastiche of several different wandering prophets and with a bunch of heroic origin stories thrown in to try to shoehorn him into Jewish prophecies. There’s actually really terrible archaeological and written evidence (like, none outside the Bible) that Jesus actually existed at all as a person.

          • Mary

            Your way is possible as well. I am aware that we can’t know whether Jesus actually existed. I was just thinking ot the logistics of how the theology came about and it seems plausible that it could have been based on a real person. Of course the pinnacle events as described in the gospels were the death and resurrection and it again seems plausible that Jesus’ death had such a huge impact on his followers that this gave rise to the idea of him still being alive and being the sacrificial “lamb.”

            Yes outside of the bible the only reference I think is from Josephus and he was talking about the sect of Christianity But I have read that it is likely that he didn’t even write that because he referred in glowing terms to Jesus as being the promised Messiah as if he were a Christian himself, which of course he was not. Most likely a Christian inserted it into his writings.

            It is possible that other records could have been lost when the temple was destroyed but we will most likely never know.

            I do agree that the Christians did try to shoehorn Jesus into Jewish prophecies and vis versa..In fact the prophecies are taken completely out of context, mangled with mistranslations and in some cases the prophecies don’t even exist in the OT at all.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Prove it.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Prove what? That Jesus may not have existed?

            Okay. Jesus may not have existed. A statement of possibility doesn’t require proof.

            But, if you mean you want me to discuss the archaeological evidence and such, I suggest you read through this thread, which is quite long, for a frank and evidence-filled discussion of the lack of evidence for Jesus. It also incidentally covers how Jesus didn’t fulfill prophecies in one section.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Prove that Christ is “a pastiche of several different wandering prophets and with a bunch of heroic origin stories thrown in to try to shoehorn him into Jewish prophecies.” Prove it.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Read the thread. The discussion is there. And we both know it can’t be proven (it’s not a mathematical proposition after all), but there is a lot of evidence for that scenario and thus I consider it a fairly likely possibility.

            Prove that Jesus existed at all, using only non-Biblical sources and archaeological evidence.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Done but why non-biblical?

          • Andy_Schueler

            Awww, the troll thinks he has proven the existence of his magical skydaddy by copypasting William Lane Craig´s material (without citation of course). How adorable :-)

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            The Bible isn’t a credible source, of course.

            And William Lane Craig isn’t a scholar, he’s a terrible hack of a Christian apologist. I mean, damn dude, you might as well cite Ken Ham. I mean actual anthropological, archaeological, or historical evidence from the turn of the millenium suggesting a dude named Yeshua was crucified in or near Jerusalem for any reason whatsoever. Go forth and bring me proof.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Prove it. Prove the Bible isn’t a credible source.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            The fact that it’s written by anonymous authors well over 30 years after the events it purports to describe, contradicts itself in several places, was cherry-picked by a cabal with an agenda, has known interpolations (also known as forgeries), doesn’t make any sense in parts of it, and is clearly not written by unbiased observers.

            Do you consider the Quran independent evidence that Mohammed existed? Or the Pali Canon as evidence that Buddha existed? Or the Bhagavid Vita evidence that Krishna existed in any human form or interacted with humans? If not, then you know why holy books are not credible sources.

            Why don’t you go for credible evidence instead of arguing about whether the Bible is or is not credible? If there’s outside evidence, surely you can present it to me instead of trying to sidetrack this discussion.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            i. What proof do you have in support of your claims?

            ii. Here’s why those, unlike the Bible, are not divinely inspired works: http://bit.ly/14Ckccl http://bit.ly/1d0Y82v

            iii. Do you accept all evidence or just scientific evidence?

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            i. Go. To. Wikipedia.

            ii. Bullshit. Everyone claimed divine inspiration, and you can’t tell if anyone is lying because, hey, no evidence for it so you either believe them all or none of them. Also, I don’t go to short URLs- if you want me to look at them, link them in full. All you ever do is link bullshit JW sites that aren’t convincing to anyone with half a brain and a quarter-ounce of rationality.

            iii. Define scientific evidence before I answer that question.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Thanks for admitting that you’re trolling and not actually interested in learning anything.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Huh. I reread what I wrote. I don’t see anything saying I’m trolling.

            I see me refusing to educate you when much better resources exist than, quite frankly, a random well-educated layperson on the Internet, especially one who has already sent you to a long and erudite thread about how the NT is full of it. I see me laying out why divine inspiration is bullshit. I see me laying out why bit.ly links are bullshit, and especially distrusting yours because they’ve never gone anywhere useful in the past. And I see me requesting clarification before answering what is almost certainly a trick/trap question. None of that spells troll to me … do you need glasses or a new dictionary?

          • J. Polanco

            There’s nothing erudite about your confirmation bias nor your smoke and mirrors. As with some misbegotten mongrel, you’re quick to abandon your claims as soon as I press you for proof. It’s all just pure palaver … and I’m not trading it for genuine truth.

          • islandbrewer

            And you’re avoiding the request to prove you’re not a murderer.

            The only conclusion we can draw is that you’ve abandoned any claim that you’re not a murderer, and implicitly admit to murder.

          • Andy_Schueler

            As with some misbegotten mongrel, you’re quick to abandon your claims as soon as I press you for proof.

            Aww… your insults are so adorable! You try so hard and still fail so badly. it´s just hilarious :-D

          • islandbrewer

            He likes to call insults “contumely.” It’s really cute.

            Hey, Joey! Pull some Latin out of your colon for us! C’mon!

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Projection much?

          • J. Polanco

            If you’re so appalled by what you see in the mirror I’ve held up to you, why not change?

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Yeah, whoooosh right over your head. Can’t say I’m shocked.

            So. Why won’t you read the things I lay out for your intellectual delectation? Why should we believe your claims about divine inspiration but no other claims? What counts as scientific evidence for you? Why do you fail to comprehend basic English words and concepts such as “projection”?

          • Maxximiliann

            Because it’s where the evidence inexorably leads us. Do you really think it such a small matter to have concrete evidence for a vastly superior cosmic intelligence?

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            No. I think it’s a huge matter. That’s why the fact we have no evidence for any vastly superior cosmic intelligence is pretty telling and highly suggestive that no such vastly superior cosmic intelligence exists.

            Answer the questions. Why won’t you read the things I lay out for your intellectual delectation? Why should we believe your claims about divine inspiration but no other claims? What counts as scientific evidence for you? Why do you fail to comprehend basic English words and concepts such as “projection”?

          • Maxximiliann

            That you pretend we have no evidence doesn’t make all the evidence for God’s necessary existence vanish: http://bit.ly/1197U6R http://bit.ly/1d0Y82v

            Adversus solem ne loquitor.

          • Andy_Schueler

            I thought stealing is wrong Jo? I guess it´s only wrong when others do it, eh?

          • Andy_Schueler

            Can you explain something to us Jo? Why does the Watchtower society only use citations when they quote a JW and otherwise simply steals quotes without citing the sources? Do they just assume that JWs will never notice this theft anyway because they brainwash their kids to not read anything that is not approved by the Watchtower society?

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Answer the questions. Why won’t you read the things I lay out for your intellectual delectation? Why should we believe your claims about divine inspiration but no other claims? What counts as scientific evidence for you? Why do you fail to comprehend basic English words and concepts such as “projection”?

            And no, that isn’t evidence.

          • Maxximiliann

            Prove it. Prove it isn’t credible evidence.

          • Gehennah

            Because just like most other prophecies, they are vague and can be attached to many events. If you want a prophecy to be taken seriously then it should be extremely specific, not something that is not generally open to the public (because people wanting to prove a prophecy revealed certainly could do so if they knew what was supposed to happen).

            So no, your Biblical prophecy is not credible evidence.

          • Maxximiliann

            Prove it. Prove Biblical prophecy is not credible evidence.

          • Gehennah

            A) It isn’t very specific
            B) Those prophecies are well known, which can lead to people fulfilling them themselves to make it come true.

            Then again a prophecy coming true is an extraordinary claim, and an extraordinary piece of evidence is requires to support such a claim. So how about explaining it, in your own words why they do count as credible evidence and why they can’t be fulfilled by people simply reading it and saying “lets do that.”

          • islandbrewer

            I know you know nothing about science, so let me teach you this:

            Someone making a positive claim, (eg, “The Bible Grimm’s Fairy Tales are true!”), bears the burden of providing the proof. Saying things like,” Prove it isn’t true!” is a sure sign that you’re full of crap with regard to the assertion you’re attempting to defend.

            Oh, that reminds me, you haven’t yet proven that you’re not a murderer, Joseph. Your silence on the matter will be taken as your tacit admission that you are, indeed, a murderer.

          • baal

            Joseph Polanco fecit terríbile cum hircis. It’s true until he disproves it.

          • Gehennah

            Perhaps you should prove that they are credible. Are they extremely specific? Is there a way to prevent people from self fulfilling it or are these prophecies hard to get ahold of beforehand so that you can’t just say “that’s a good idea, lets make it come true.”

          • islandbrewer

            You’ve had at least 10 hours to reply.

            You have now admitted that you are a murderer, Joseph. Should I alert the authorities to your confession, or are you turning yourself in?

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Answer the questions. Why won’t you read the things I lay out for your intellectual delectation? Why should we believe your claims about divine inspiration but no other claims? What counts as scientific evidence for you? Why do you fail to comprehend basic English words and concepts such as “projection”?

            This really goes both ways, you know. If I answer your questions, you have to answer mine. You don’t just get to make random claims and require impossible mountains of evidence from me, while ignoring your reciprocal burden (especially when I do provide you evidence or where to look for it). You especially don’t get to pretend we haven’t already had this discussion. Biblical prophecies are not credible evidence. This has already come up and been dispatched.

          • baal

            quigibo reget nos!

          • Gehennah

            It’s a huge matter, and something that should be blatantly obvious.

            But there hasn’t been any.

          • Maxximiliann

            Unless you believe everything came from nothing it most certainly is. Creation is undeniable evidence of a Creator.

          • Gehennah

            Krauss’s model of the origin of the universe not only requires not creator, but also matches the observed universe today (zero charge, zero spin, zero energy, and flat).

            While his model doesn’t prove that is how the universe was created, it certainly shows that it is plausible.

          • Maxximiliann

            Krauss is a mendacious quack. That your lack of critical thinking allows you to be taken in by him is very, very poignant.

            Abbott: I want to talk to you about the quantum vacuum.
            Costello: You want to talk to me about what?
            Abbott: Nothing.
            Costello: So you don’t want to talk?
            Abbott: I do want to talk.
            Costello: Oh, OK. So what do you want to talk about?
            Abbott: Nothing
            Costello: But you just said you wanted to talk to me.
            Abbott: I do.
            Costello: So what do you want to talk to me about?
            Abbott: The quantum vacuum
            Costello: OK. Tell me about the quantum vacuum.
            Abbott: It’s nothing
            Costello: If it’s nothing than why do you want to talk about it?
            Abbott: Because it’s important.
            Costello: What is?
            Abbott: Nothing
            Costello: Nothing is important?
            Abbott: Yes, it’s very important.
            Costello: Then it must be something.
            Abbott: Of course it’s something.
            Costello: But you said it was nothing.
            Abbott: I certainly did.
            Costello: So the quantum vacuum is nothing, and it’s something, and it’s very important.
            Abbott: Exactly!

          • Gehennah

            Then by all means, explain what part of his model doesn’t work.

          • islandbrewer

            Krauss is a quack? What exactly is wrong with his model – please explain in some detail.

            I’m shocked, really, that your command of cosmology and theoretical physics hasn’t netted you the chair of some physics department, if not a Nobel Prize! Why aren’t you teaching university physics, Mr. Staggering Intellect?

          • islandbrewer

            Creation is undeniable evidence of a Creator.

            As is said far far too often when people like you make unsupported assertion here, “Citation needed.”

          • Maxximiliann

            Riiight because the universe came from nothing, by nothing for nothing 13.70 billion years ago …

            And you accuse ME of believing in fairy tales?!!

          • islandbrewer

            I do accuse you of believing in fairy tales.

            Is the existence of the universe the single best argument of your for the existence of a giant magical invisible Jehovah? Do you have any credible evidence? Anything that isn’t just as easily, if not more easily, explained by natural nonmagical explanations?

            Or would you rather resort to quotes from the folklore of bronze age shepherds? That’s every bit as credible as the Bhagavad Gita, or the Koran, or the Kalevala.

            Look, I know you love to obscure your lack of argument with Latin or SAT words (which I’m sure you never took, because Jehovah’s Witnesses and higher education don’t really go together), or dismiss them with insults and “ad homs” (all the while acting offended at icky “bad words”). But unless you’re willing to learn just a little bit of the science that you fetishize, nothing you say about cosmology or physics will ever impress anyone outside your little Kingdom Hall.

            Pop Quiz! Can you find the actual ad hominem in my comment?

          • DavidMHart

            No, because ‘creation’ is a linguistic quirk left over from when most people presupposed that there was a sentient creator. The word most people now use to describe ‘everything that exists’ is ‘reality’ (or ‘the universe’ if someone is confident that our universe is the only one that actually exists).

            It would be a bit like noting that the word ‘animal’ comes from the Latin word meaning ‘having a spirit or soul’ (‘anima’), and therefore insisting that the existence of animals is undeniable evidence of souls.

            But no, it doesn’t work. The fact that the universe exists suggest that the somehow the universe came into existence’. It doesn’t remotely necessitate the very specific claim that whatever caused the universe to come into existence was a sentient being that deliberately designed and created it. And even if you thought it did, it would be a hypothesis that requires you to presuppose the existence of something even more amazing and complicated than the universe, and is thus a deeply unparsimonious hypothesis.

            No one has ever come up with a convincing explanation for why a sentient creator deity should be immune from the need to explain its own existence – though plenty of people have come up with clever excuses that don’t quite stand up to inspection. If anyone ever had come up with a convincing explanation as to why a creator god could be presupposed without an explanation as to why it exists, then we wouldn’t be having this argument in the first place.

          • baal

            You forgot to add that she’s a neckbeard, Steve.

          • islandbrewer

            Prove that you’re not a murderer. Go ahead, show us any proof that you want that you have never murdered anyone.

          • Gehennah

            Because the Bible does not align with many historical events.

            Noah’s flood demonstrably didn’t happen.
            The Exodus somehow left no real traces behind
            Genetics doesn’t support Adam and Eve or Noah’s flood.
            There are contradictions in the resurrection accounts

            So no, it’s not credible.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Argumentum ex silentio. Fischer’s “Historians’ Fallacies” categorically asserts, “Evidence must always be affirmative. Negative evidence is a contradiction in terms–it is no evidence at all. The nonexistence of an object is established not by nonexistent evidence but by affirmative evidence of the fact that it did not, or could not exist.” That is to say, you need to present evidence that supports your claims that none of these events took place.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Hebrews 9 explicates it quite nicely: http://bit.ly/16dDNVs

          • Joseph O Polanco

            There was much more at play than just forgiving Adam and Eve: http://bit.ly/11EyvgO

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Every one of our sins is an infinite offense against and infinitely good, righteous and holy God.

            If a murderer was in a courtroom and said to the judge, I know you are a forgiving judge, so can you just let me go? If the judge let’s him go, then he isn’t a good or just judge.

            In the same way, God is and infinitely perfect and just judge and He will punish all sin. So please, repent of your sin and put your trust in Jesus.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            So this absolutely perfect god made imperfect creatures and expected them to be perfect?

            That’s incredibly stupid or sadistic. You pick.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Nope. He gave us the choice and we sinned against Him and will be judged according to His standard when we die.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            So, we were given a choice that isn’t a choice at all (everyone sins, you said). Remember what I said earlier in describing Christianity (though possibly to someone else)? It is the firm belief that a snake talked to a woman and convinced her to eat a magical apple, which cursed humanity for ever and ever until an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity fucked a virgin to impregnate her with himself in order to sacrifice himself in order to force himself (even though he’s all powerful!) to forgive humanity for the woman eating the magical apple. Also, if you don’t believe this, this deity will condemn you to eternal torture but won’t give you the information necessary to prove it happened. But he loves you!

            That sounds awfully sadistic and abusive to me. Believe this absolute nonsense with no evidence whatsoever to back it up and oodles of evidence of a completely natural world, or be tortured for eternity for using the brain God Hirself (if you believe in that God) endowed us with.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Thanks for writing. I will pray that you repent of your sins and put your trust in your savior.

          • Cake

            WOW what a fucked up thing to say. It would have been more honest to just say. I hope my god mind fucks you into blithering obedience.

            Not that it will ever happen because:
            1, You’re too dishonest to openly communicate that way
            2. God can’t do anything cause it’s not real.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            No, I truly meant it. I harbor no ill will towards you and pray for all those who don’t know their savior to know Him.

          • Cake

            I understand.

            What you couldn’t do by talking, you hope to do by force and coercion.

          • Jasper

            I think I can speak for most of the people here, when I say you haven’t been even remotely convincing.

            From our perspective, you keep going on and on about how we’re going to get coal for Christmas if we don’t believe in Santa Claus enough… and we’re still waiting for you to provide sufficient scientific evidence to override our general observations of reality.

            Instead, I’m going to walk away from the conversation, even more convinced that theism is delusion.

            Have a blast talking to your invisible imaginary best friend on our behalf. The more you do that, the less you’ll be dragging down the rest of the world with you.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            It’s true that many people’s hearts are hardened towards God. It is terrible and unfortunate.

          • Cake

            Rational thinking has hardened the hearts of many people against faerie tales. This is a feature and not a bug.

          • Jasper

            I’d call it the dawn of a new era of mankind, one that’s not totally irrational and insane, engaging in genocide, slavery, horrendous doctrines, opposing any kind of scientific progress, dumbing down each new generation – exploiting that classic “if you catch them young, you’ve got them for live” mechanism because their silly delusional fairy tales can’t be supported in any way, shape or form.

            That’s good!

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            In other words, PWNED! You still can’t admit that your religion makes no sense?

            Also, please don’t pray for me. Although it will have no effect, praying for me to change my mind is asking your God, who you claim likes free will, to mind-fuck me. That’s just wrong.

          • phantomreader42

            When a christian offers to pray for an atheist, they are ALWAYS lying. What you’ll really do is jerk off fantasizing about watching your monstrous imaginary friend burn us all alive forever for your depraved entertainment. Fuck off, lying death cultist sack of shit.

          • Jasper

            I’m glad that I’m not the only person thoroughly frustrated with this person.

            Every time he says something along the lines of “I will pray that you repent of your sins and put your trust in your savior”, my skins crawls just a little bit more.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            That is not true. There is no satisfaction in saying “I told you so” to the saved.

          • Cake

            What’s this we shit kemosabe? You got a talking turd in your pocket?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Thanks for writing. Did you know that the Tenth commandment is that you shall not covet.

          • Cake

            Yet you’re still doing it anyway.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            cool. Did you know that the eighth commandment is you shall not steal

          • Cake

            Robot Jesus says what?

          • Cake

            I see now it’s all about ego for you, always need to get in the last word?

          • Joseph O Polanco

            You are mistaken: http://bit.ly/11EyvgO

          • Mary

            I knew someone was going to bust out with AIG sooner or later. They are liars and are less credible than the National Enquirer. I hope you don’t donate to them because they are just a bunch of con-artists fleecing their flock.

            By the way there are plenty of Christians who don’t buy into their crap because they see it for what it is. They are embarrassed by the fact that such an idiotic organization is associated with Christianity.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Best way for your to discern for yourself is to read the Bible from cover to cover and determine for yourself.

          • Mary

            Well first of all Dean, I have read it from cover to cover many times. Second of all I wasn’t talking about the Bible in the first place. I was talking about AIG and their sloppy “science”. When they claim that fire-breathing dragons existed then they have jumped off of the deep end.

            Dean do you believe that the earth is a flat circle surrounded by ocean with a solid dome in which the stars, sun and moon are suspended? Because that is what the bible says. Even Ken Ham has not gone that far as far as I know but if you are going to believe that the entire bible is literally true then you would also have to accept this as well.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Hi Mary,
            The Bible is not “literally” true for everything. After all, Jesus said He was a door. His isn’t literally a piece of wood with hinges. Rather He is the door to salvation/heaven.

            So please repent of your sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

          • Mary

            So you believe in the creation story but not all of it? Where do you draw the line then?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Not following you. Adam and Eve were literal people, but every example in the Bible is not literal like the example I gave with Jesus and the door.

            But yes, I believe the creation story was literal. Adam and Eve are literal people and God created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th.

          • Mary

            Dean how can you explain that they had maps showing the exact structure of what they thought the Universe was like. THEY took it literally. In fact for most of Judeo-Christian history this was how they conceived of the natural world.

            So you are saying that Adam and Eve were literal figures but yet the creation of the earth, moon and stars were not literal accounts?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            No, I am saying that Adam and Eve were literal people and that the creation as told in Genesis was how the universe happened.

            I was just giving an example that not everything is literal. For instance, when Jesus said I am the door, He did not mean He was a piece of wood with hinges, but rather, He was the entry way to heaven for all those who turn from (repent) their sin and believe in Him.

          • Compuholic

            So the above could fall into Category 1

            Yes it could be assigned into the 1st category but then your second statement is false. Namely that this position is utterly rejected by the scientific community. The multiverse is a serious hypothesis.

            However, your “There are a couple of values that are always conserved” is something.

            Yes, but the sum-total of those conserved values is zero. Let’s make a concrete example of conserved values: The total electric charge of any system is always conserved. If the sum of the negative charges is equal to the number of positive charges the total charge is zero. When you create matter in particle accellerators you create matter out of nothing (you just need energy) but you get equal parts of matter and anti-matter. When they meet again they annihilate themselves and turn back to energy. A similar case can be made for energy itself: The total energy of the universe might be zero. So if the sum total of all conserved values is zero: The universe can very well spring into existence on its own.

            Nothing cannot create anything, so to me the above argument falls into something always existed.

            Not necessarily true. 200 years ago everyone would have agreed. That is just your everyday experience. Unfortunately your everyday experience means exactly shit when it comes to the quantum world. You might want to look up “Quantum fluctuations” or the “Casimir effect”. Those things cannot be understood by classical “common sense” mechanics.

            Did you know that Jesus said, whoever looks upon a person to lust after them has already committed adultery in their heart? [...]

            No idea what that has to do with anything. But I am aware that the bible says that a guy named Jesus supposedly said something like that. Who cares? For all the great things he is supposed to have done, there is remarkably little evidence that this guy even existed.

          • phantomreader42

            Jesus supposedly said a lot of shit that is stupid and false. Neither you nor any other member of your cult has offered any evidence to support your imaginary friend’s alleged pronouncements, so why should anyone who isn’t a brainwashed death cultist believe a word you say?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            So what did Jesus say that was stupid and false, I would be happy to discuss what issues you have with the Bible.

            For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it’s a gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

            So please, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

          • Rob

            “Anti-matter is what balances out matter so that the sum-total is zero (nothing).”

            They don’t balance, there is asymmetry. Sum total is still zero however, that doesn’t change.

          • Compuholic

            On the scale of the universe that seems to be the case. However when done in a lab there is no asymmetry. It is one of the research applications of particle accellerators to find out what happened to the antimatter.

          • Rob

            Given a conflict between the lab and the universe, the universe wins :D

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Looks like you are redefining “nothing” into “something” because you know it is intellectual suicide to say that nothing created everything.

            Did you know that the two greatest commandments are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind and all your strength, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself.

            Jesus said, I am the way, the truth, the life, and no one comes to the Father but by Me.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Huh. Jesus was also into female inequality and slavery, but you don’t hear those verses bandied around as much. God is also totes okay with sex slavery and genocide. Don’t hear those verses as much either.

            You sure you want to get in a quote war? I’ve got my EvilBible tab open and waiting!

          • Mary

            Tack onto that the human sacrifice of a young virgin girl also on that site.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Yeap. There’s a lot of good (read: absolutely horrendous) stuff in the Bible.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Sure. You cut and paste your quotes here from other sites out of context and I will be happy to explain the context to you.

            Let’s start with female inequality. I’d love to address that one. It is one of the most quoted and misunderstood.

          • Mary

            Well why don’t we start out Dean with what I brought up. The human sacrifice of a young virgin girl. Or how about women being forced to marry their rapists? Or the honor killings of women who were not virgins on their wedding nights? Or the sexual slavery of women? Or forced abortions if the husband had a “spirit of jealousy”?

            Since you don’t like people to cut and paste then I assume that you know where all these passages are and are fully prepared to answer since you are such an “expert” on the bible.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Forcing to marry their rapists (your words). I’m assuming you are referring to Deuteronomy . If you stud the verses, you will see that the sex was consensual. We today call it a shotgun wedding.

            With regards to other items in the Bible, there is a lot of sin that is written about in the Bible. It does not mean that God endorses it.

            In fact the first sin ever recorded was Adam and Eve sinning against God in the Garden of Eden and death entered the world because of it.

            So please repent of your sin and put your trust in your savior Jesus Christ.

          • Mary

            “Forcing to marry their rapists (your words). I’m assuming you are referring to Deuteronomy . If you stud the verses, you will see that the sex was consensual. We today call it a shotgun wedding.”

            REALLY?

            “If a man is caught in the act of RAPING a young woman who is not engaged, he
            must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young
            woman because he VIOLATED her, and he will never be allowed to divorce
            her.”(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

            “With regards to other items in the Bible, there is a lot of sin that is written about in the Bible. It does not mean that God endorses it.”

            WRONG

            Jephthah Burns His Daughter

            At that time the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he went throughout
            the land of Gilead and Manasseh, including Mizpah in Gilead, and led an army
            against the Ammonites. And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, “If you
            give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing
            coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice
            it as a burnt offering.”

            “So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and
            the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to
            an area near Minnith – twenty towns – and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus
            Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his
            daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and
            dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. “My
            daughter!” he cried out. “My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came
            out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back.”
            And she said, “Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me
            what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your
            enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep
            with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin.” “You may go,”
            Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went
            into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she
            returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has
            become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days
            each year to lament the fate of Jephthah’s daughter.” (Judges 11:29-40
            NLT)

            DO YOU REALLY WANT TO MAKE ANY MORE RIDICULOUS CLAIMS?

            You have just demonstrated your ignorance of the bible. Congrats!

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            If you read the previous verses, you will see that a man that rapes a woman in the country is to be put to death because the woman’s screams could not be heard. In the verses you quoted, the “in the country” was removed, so it was in town. The fact that they were “discovered” implies that there were no screams and so that the sex was consensual. The law was put into place to protect the woman because no man would want to marry a woman who is not a virgin.

            With regards to the Judges quote, I have seen two interpretations. One that she was not actually sacrificed, but just kept a virgin her whole life and that no mention of her sacrifice is mentioned and her virginity was mourned because she would never have children and thus die a virgin. I tend to reject this one, because the original vow appears to have sacrifice in mind.

            That leaves us with your assertion. Nowhere in the Bible is human sacrifice condoned, in fact we are to preserve life and one of the commandments is not to murder. I’m going to assume that since the scripture says that the Lord gave Jephthah victory that you are assuming it was because of his vow. I don’t agree with that interpretation. People sin all the time and make stupid vows. The fact that the Lord used a sinful Jephthah to bless His people by having victory over an enemy does not imply that Jephthah’s behavior was appropriate.

            Human history is a long line of sinfulness and God uses sinful people to fulfill His promises. King David committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered Uriah (Bathsheba’s husband) to cover it up, yet King David married Bathsheba and they had a child Solomon which was in the lineage to Christ (Matthew Chapter 1 vs 6 & 7), our savior. God uses sinful people for His purposes. The fact that Jesus came from the lineage of David and Bathsheba’s son Solomon does not mean that God endorsed King David’s behavior.

            All the recording of people sinning in the Bible does not change the fact that when we die, we will all be accountable to God for our actions, thoughts and words. So please repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ.

          • Cake

            Whoops I guess you meant there’s no human sacrifice except for these parts here.

            http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/human_sacrifice.html

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yeah, cut and paste Atheists taking Bible verses out of context. Shall we go one by one?

            Here is the first Genesis 22:2

            2 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

            Perhaps you should read a little further all the way to verse 11 & 12:

            11 But the angel of the Lord called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

            “Here I am,” he replied.

            12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

            ——————————-

            And I will throw in another one since I just answered this in a different conversation, it’s regarding Judges 11:29-40 in your link above.

            With regards to the Judges quote, I have seen two interpretations. One that she was not actually sacrificed, but just kept a virgin her whole life and that no mention of her sacrifice is mentioned and her virginity was mourned because she would never have children and thus die a virgin. I tend to reject this one, because the original vow appears to have sacrifice in mind.

            That leaves us with your assertion. Nowhere in the Bible is human sacrifice condoned, in fact we are to preserve life and one of the commandments is not to murder. I’m going to assume that since the scripture says that the Lord gave Jephthah victory that you are assuming it was because of his vow. I don’t agree with that interpretation. People sin all the time and make stupid vows. The fact that the Lord used a sinful Jephthah to bless His people by having victory over an enemy does not imply that Jephthah’s behavior was appropriate.

            Human history is a long line of sinfulness and God uses sinful people to fulfill His promises. King David committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered Uriah (Bathsheba’s husband) to cover it up, yet King David married Bathsheba and they had a child Solomon which was in the lineage to Christ (Matthew Chapter 1 vs 6 & 7), our savior. God uses sinful people for His purposes. The fact that Jesus came from the lineage of David and Bathsheba’s son Solomon does not mean that God endorsed King David’s behavior.

            All the recording of people sinning in the Bible does not change the fact that when we die, we will all be accountable to God for our actions, thoughts and words. So please repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ.

          • Cake

            Nah. Still sounds like bullshit. Any book that claims to be the “truth” but fucks up the order in which the world was supposedly created within the first few chapters can’t be trusted to be anything but a thinly veiled lie.

          • Mary

            You are just twisting bible verses to suit your interpretion. The verse clearly says ‘RAPE’

            These are the other verses you are talking about:

            23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

            25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death.

            Deuteronomy 22:23-26
            New International Version (NIV)

            What these verses are refering to are the penalties due for violating someone else’s property. That of the husband’s (or betrothed as it had legal ramifications that we don’t have). Note is says clearly that the sin of the man was violating his neighbor’s wife instead of hurting the woman. In both cases the woman was a virgin.

            Now there was a separate rule for a non-betrothed vigin. It didn’t matter whether she was raped in the town or outside of it because the rapist was commiting a crime against her father and so that was easily remedied by him paying the bride-price.

            IN ALL OF THESE CASES RAPE WAS NOT A CRIME AGAINST THE WOMAN.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            There is a second interpretation as told by Hank Hanegraaff. I’ve cut and pasted it here.

            According to Mosaic Law, “If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives” (Deuteronomy 22:28–29). Isn’t that barbaric?

            First, the Mosaic Law is hardly about letting a rapist off easy. The consequence for raping a woman engaged to be married was stoning (Deuteronomy 22:25). If the woman was not engaged, the rapist was spared for the sake of the woman’s security. Having lost her virginity, she would have been deemed undesirable for marriage—and in the culture of the day, a woman without a father or husband to provide for her would be subject to a life of abject poverty, destitution, and social ostracism. As such, the rapist was compelled to provide for the rape victim for as long as he lived. Thus, far from barbaric, the law was a cultural means of protection and provision.

            Furthermore, there was precedent under the Mosaic Law for the victimized woman not to marry the victimizer if her father determined that she could be provided for in a more suitable manner (Exodus 22:16–17). Thus, the law was not designed to force the rape victim into an unbearable marriage, but to secure her future and that of her children.

            Finally, neither then nor now, there is no perfect resolution for a woman who has been violated through the horror of rape. The modern–day solution of aborting a child conceived through rape only compounds the horror. Indeed, if we are completely satisfied by any earthly solution—even the death penalty—our moral sensibilities are seriously skewed. Ultimately, only eternity will make all wrongs right.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            I’m sorry, are you actually suggesting that being forcibly married to one’s rapist, instead of ordering people to, oh I don’t know, not rape or not be obsessed with a woman’s virginity, is the better solution? Why not say that a woman’s honor does not, in fact, reside between her legs, so stop worrying about it so much?

            If God is so awesome, why not give out rules to live by that are actually good, instead of rules that treat women as chattel property? Why try to strand humanity in Bronze Age ignorance and misogyny?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            He did. He called us to love our neighbor as our self.

            Just wish everyone would listen to God.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            And loving one’s neighbor as oneself involves enslaving one’s neighbor if they worship a different god, eh?

            You don’t get to pick only the nice sayings. If you claim your holy book is holy, then own it. Own its misogyny, its slavery, its genocide. Own its horrible teachings and death penalty for trivial misdeeds. You don’t get to cherry-pick if you’re going to claim the whole thing is the Word of God. Own its scientific ignorance, its fairy tales and talking animals and magic.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            The Bible has many rules to regulate people who act evil because their hearts are wicked. Having rules for people’s wicked behavior to regulate it is not endorsing the behavior. You have mis-characterized the Bible’s teachings if you only look at the stuff you don’t like and disregard the whole story.

            As regards to genocide, God destroyed all humans on earth except for 8 people in the flood because people where corrupt.

            11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.

            God is sovereign over His creation and can do with us what He chooses. God patiently waited one hundred years while Noah built the ark, allowing all time to repent of their sin. But none did.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Every single person was corrupt except those eight? The infants yet to talk, even? The toddler drawing in the dirt? And what about the cows and goats and cats and dogs and penguins and butterflies and cockroaches and flowers and ragweed and wheat and all the plants and animals and bugs that died in the flood? What did they do wrong? Were they corrupt too? No matter what, drowning the whole earth is Evil, capital E. We don’t even have a word for such an event it’s so incredibly, horribly bad. Why, supposedly, even God admitted his mistake and promised to never do such a thing again because it was so incredibly immoral and horrible! That’s where rainbows are from.

            Now, fortunately, we know that flood didn’t actually happen. It’s a story probably referencing a regional flood (lots of flood stories in the area from about that time). However, you clearly think the Bible is a literal history, which means you think God literally drowned everything in the whole wide world. Which means you think that murdering every single living thing on the whole planet except for a handful isn’t an evil act. To which I say, what is wrong with you?

          • Mary

            As far as the human sacrifice is concerned, HE MADE AN OATH TO GOD AND GOD DID NOT STOP HIM. And yes the bible says VERY clearly that in fact she did die:

            “When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she DIED a virgin.” Judges 11

            There is no indication that there was anything wrong with what he did. In fact if anything it implies that he made a very difficult decision to follow God and sacrifice his own daughter.

            It is very easy to overlook all the moral problems in the bible.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Why did you address the interpretation that I said I tended to reject? Also, if the 40 year old virgin in the movie died before having sex, then he would have “died a virgin” so the literal text does not say he was sacrificed, however, based on the text, I have a second interpretation that I felt was more appropriate.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Deuteronomy 22:28,29 isn’t describing a rape because rapists were executed in ancient Israel. This is expressly manifested at Deuteronomy 22:25-27:

            ““If, however, it is in the field that the man found the girl who was engaged, and the man grabbed hold of her and lay down with her, the man who lay down with her must also die by himself, and to the girl *** you must do nothing . The girl has no sin deserving of death ***, because just as when a man rises up against his fellowman and indeed murders him, even a soul, so it is with this case. For it was in the field that he found her. The girl who was engaged screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.” – Deuteronomy 22:25-27 (Emphasis mine.)

            What we have described in Deuteronomy 22:28,29 is a case of consensual sex. This law obligated the man to pay a fine and, were he to marry the girl whose virginity he took, he would never be allowed to divorce her. (cf. Exodus 22:16,17)

            These laws obligated the man, not the virgin.

            In other words, what you have here is a good ‘ol fashioned shotgun wedding.

          • Andy_Schueler

            What we have described in Deuteronomy 22:28,29 is a case of consensual sex.

            So, when the Bible says something you don´t like, you simply make up your own verses and believe that shit instead? Good one.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            “The girl who was engaged screamed, but there was no one to rescue her.” That doesn’t sound consensual to me. Why, she screamed in pain! And no one came to rescue her (you only need rescuing from where you don’t want to be, FYI).

            The laws said that virgins who were raped had to marry their rapists.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Not sure if you’re just trolling or you actually missed the point …

          • Andy_Schueler

            What we have described in Deuteronomy 22:28,29 is a case of consensual sex.

            Is this from your Pink Princess Bible?
            Hint: the hebrew word that is used in verse 28 is this one:
            “תּפשׂ
            tâphaś
            taw-fas’
            A primitive root; to manipulate, that is, seize; chiefly to capture, wield; specifically to overlay; figuratively to use

            Nothing spells consent like “seize her!” – good one Joseph! Defending genocide is not enough, you have to defend rape as well, eh?

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            You claimed the text supported the idea that it was consensual sex. I pointed out text that shows you are full of bullshit.

            That is neither trolling nor missing the point. That is, in fact, just clubbing you over the head with facts you can’t refute.

            Of course, Andy_Schueler did it better, for which I thank him.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Which text. I gave exegesis on two distinct passages.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Actually, 3 is the most irrational of all the options because an infinite regress of causes has no basis in reality; it can’t be turtles all the way down. (Lookup “Hilbert’s Grand Hotel” if you’re interested in a more in-depth analysis: http://bit.ly/1dq935A)http://bit.ly/SSsy8x

        • Rob

          Argument from incredulity, argument 2 is invalid.

          Something from nothing has been observed, so the incredulity is also ignorance.

          And no, it doesn’t violate the laws of thermodynamics. The more correct colloquial expression is “On AVERAGE, matter and energy isn’t created or destroyed”. The sum total of energy and matter in the universe is 0, so the law isn’t broken.

          And let’s get into the consistency of argument 2 as well. Universe can’t come into existence on it’s own, yet God can? Try arguments without special pleading.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Something from nothing has been observed, so the incredulity is also ignorance.

            Please share. There was nothing, and then there was something. And it’s observed. I’d like to see that.

            And yes, God always existed. If something exists now, then something must have always existed. Unless of course, you have nothing, which creates everything.

            Did you know that Jesus said that whoever looks with lust commits adultery in their heart. So God not only measures our actions, but thought life as well. In the same way, hatred is murder of the heart.

          • baal

            “Did you know that Jesus said”

            No, we had no idea there was a Jesus fellow or that anyone quotes him these days.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            You can examine the evidence for yourself by reading the Bible. The first 4 books of the New Testament quote Jesus quite a bit.

            Did you know that Jesus also said “Be perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect.”

            That means if you sin just once in your life, you fall short of God’s holy and perfect standard, so please repent of your sins and believe in Jesus.

          • Compuholic

            Please share. There was nothing, and then there was something. And it’s observed.

            I take it you didn’t look up the Casimir effect or quantum fluctuations in general as I suggested?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I did look up the Casimir effect. In fact, I found it hilarious as I read what Wiki had to say. Scientists used a bunch of “stuff” i.e. “something” to test what happens in a vacuum between two plates etc.

            Please provide evidence of a scientist that started with nothing, and then something happened.

            Here is the link to Wiki of the Casimir effect. Perhaps I misread.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

            Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Me.

            For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

          • Compuholic

            I found it hilarious as I read what Wiki had to say. Scientists used a bunch of “stuff” i.e. “something” to test what happens in a vacuum between two plates etc.

            If you found this hilarious the joke is on you because you didn’t understand it. There is nothing between those plates. But because of virtual particles that pop in an out of existence from a vacuum (aka nothing) you get an observable effect in the real world.

            You asked for evidence that something can come from nothing. You were provided with it: virtual particles are such an example. Now you have shifted the goalpost: Now you want something that comes from nothing but doesn’t require anything to measure it. Talk about dishonesty: You are a shining example of christianity.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I understood. My point was, why do you need to start with plates to do the test. Why not start with nothing, and then wait until it becomes something as you are implying that is how the universe came into existence.

            Please repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ.

          • Compuholic

            No you did not. You don’t “start with the plates”. The plates are only there to measure the effect.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes, you are saying you need “something” to measure nothing becoming something.

            Why not just wait around and let nothing become something like how the whole universe started.

            So absolutely nothing became the universe.

            People don’t want there to be a God because they don’t won’t to be accountable for their actions like lying, stealing or looking with lust (adultery.) This has caused people to hold onto the nothing created everything impossibility.

          • Mary

            Seriously, you are only embarrassing yourself…

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I’m not the one who is saying I am a talking primate and that everything came from nothing.

          • Mary

            Technically YOU ARE a talking primate as a catagory. That is like saying that you are not a talking mammal.

          • Mary

            So you think that scientists would go through expensive and time-consuming education and spend millions of dollars on experiments for the sole purpose of disproving God? That is pretty silly.

            You forgot about this part:

            “In modern theoretical physics, the Casimir effect plays an important role in the chiral bag model of the nucleon; and in applied physics, it is significant in some aspects of emerging microtechnologies and nanotechnologies.[8]”

            If this were not real then how come they are using it in technologies?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            There is big money in finding the “missing link” which gets front page headlines and grants and the retractions many years later are buried in the back pages.

            With regards to science. There is a lot of legitimate science. However, the current line of thinking is counter to science and rational thought. That at first there was nothing and then bang, the universe came into existence. Nothing is Nothing. All the attempts to re-define nothing into something just shows that it is intellectual suicide to take this position.

            There are three possibilities. If you think of another one, let me know.

            1. Universe created itself
            2. Universe always existed.
            3. Universe was created by a higher being.

            1 means that nothing created the universe, because the universe could not have created itself because then it would have had to exist to create itself.

            2 is not in alignment with science today as we see declining energy in the universe and if it was infinitely old, then it would have ceased to exist as we know it today.

            3 is the only logical option. a higher being (God) that always existed and created time is the most logical

          • Cake

            There are four possibilities. If you think of another one, let me know.

            1. God created itself
            2. God always existed. (moron hint: same as #1)
            3. God was created by a higher being.
            4. God is an invention of primitive man who is trying to make sense of the world.

            4 is the only logical option because, blah blah blah you’re not listening anyway and will shortly tell us for the 99th time we must read the bible cover to cover as if that will somehow make the bullshit more clear…..

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Fantastic, so when I asked you this:

            There are three possibilities. If you think of another one, let me know.

            1. Universe created itself
            2. Universe always existed.
            3. Universe was created by a higher being.

            You decided to skirt the issue because you can’t think of one. So what’s your proof for 1 or 2?

          • Jasper

            What makes you think those are the only three possibilities?

            We’re fine to acknowledge that we don’t know… and what science tends to discover is that the natural world is even more bizarre than we had originally thought.

            You’ve set up a false dilemma.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            It’s rational thought those three possibilities.

            Did you know that looking with lust is adultery according to Jesus.

          • Jasper

            “It’s rational thought those three possibilities.”

            Coming up with the first three isn’t the problem. The argument you’re constructing can only work if those are the ONLY possibilities. There may be quadrillions of possibilities, most of which may take us millions of years to discern.

            The rational position is to wait until a possibility comes forward that’s actually demonstrably true. Until then, it becomes an Argument from Ignorance combined with a False Dilemma.

            Rational people would recognize the logical fallacies.

            “Did you know that looking with lust is adultery according to Jesus.”

            Did you know that Captain Kirk saved the galaxy multiple times?

            Actually, yes, I am familiar with that teaching… and it’s one of the most dumbass things I’ve ever heard.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            so of the three possibilities we have now, we know that that universe cannot create itself, because nothing cannot create anything. We know that the universe could not have always existed (which is why all scientists point to the Big Bang, because the evidence shows that there was a beginning of the universe) Which leaves the third and most rational reason which is that a higher being created the universe and time. He is the un-caused cause.

            whether you think it is a dumb teaching or not is irrelevant, because when we die, we will all be accountable to God’s standard.

          • Jasper

            You don’t appear to be comprehending what I’m saying… “Of the three possibilities we have now” is what renders your argument impotent. You’ve blown right past the fact that you’re engaging in multiple logical fallacies, without a care in the world.

            This is why a process of elimination is one of the worse ways to go about anything, because it necessarily presumes that one is in possession of all the unknowns.

            I’d say there’s a 4th option: “A naturalistic explanation that we have no clue about yet, that operates in a way that trumps our common understanding about how reality works” … you know, just like most of the ground-breaking discoveries we’ve made.

            I, on the other hand, instead of engaging in pointless speculation based on limited information, am willing to wait until we have sufficient evidence to actually demonstrate that something is actually true.

            And WE’RE the ones who are called arrogant!

            “whether you think it is a dumb teaching or not is irrelevant, because when we die, we will all be accountable to God’s standard.”

            What is relevant is that it demonstrates that the Bible has not particular “wisdom”. It’s a bunch of word salad that promotes things we consider immoral in today’s society – this one, for example – thought crime.

            It’s a picture-perfect example of a book that was invented in the bronze-age by people with bronze-age mentality.

            I don’t care if you think your invisible sky wizard is going to have me punished because I’m THINKING THE WRONG THOUGHTS. Your god is pure evil.

          • Cake

            Sense you make none.

          • Cake

            Fantastic, so when I asked you this:

            There are four possibilities. If you think of another one, let me know.

            1. God created itself
            2. God always existed. (moron hint: same as #1)
            3. God was created by a higher being.
            4. God is an invention of primitive man who is trying to make sense of the world.

            You decided to skirt the issue because you can’t think of one. So what’s your proof for 1 or 2?

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Conceptually, only 2 is plausible because an infinite regress of causes has no basis in reality; it can’t be turtles all the way down. (Lookup “Hilbert’s Grand Hotel” if you’re interested in a more in-depth analysis: http://bit.ly/1dq935A) http://bit.ly/SSsy8x

          • Cake

            BZzzzt! Wrong answer.

            The correct answer is 4. God is an invention of primitive man trying to make sense of the world.

            We would have also accepted, “Joseph O Polanco is a lying shit fuck whos failed at marriage and fatherhood, and is failing at his current hobby of bringing the message of his corrupt and harmful religion to atheists.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Prove it.

          • Gehennah

            You’ve already proven it yourself. Thanks.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Evade! Evade! (You can’t actually make arguments, if you haven’t noticed.)

          • Gehennah

            I’d argue that its you to have failed to not only make a comprehensible argument, and your ultimate comeback is “prove it” which just shows how desperate you are..

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Since when is requiring evidence “desperate”?

          • islandbrewer

            You can’t even copypasta yourself, now?

          • Cake

            As proof I offer every single one of the gods that you DON’T believe in. Then I’ll throw on that extra one or three whichever your kookie beliefs require.

            Say hi to your wife, er ex-wife for me.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            And you would be committing an A Dicto Simpliciter fallacy. Try again.

          • Cake

            Boring.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Thanks for admitting that you’re trolling and not actually interested in learning anything.

          • Cake

            You make me laugh.

          • Mary

            Believe it or not, I do believe in God, but I do not believe that God has a religion. I do not know what started the Big Bang, but we have rock solid evidence that it happened from measuring the cosmic background radiation and looking back into time with WMAP.

            What I am objecting to is the fact that you totally misrepresented and discarded this experiment when it is proven that it has technological applications. I would remind you that creationists cannot refute an argument that they don’t understand in the first place.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            So if you believe in God, do you believe that the Bible is His inerrant word?

          • Gehennah

            That’s one of the dumbest arguments around.

            If I wanted to not be accountable for my actions, I’d be a Christian because they have this little loophole that even would allow murderers into heaven unpunished.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I understand that it feels unfair to you. But there is judicial punishment and it was suffered on the cross by Christ.

            But from what I can tell of your worldview, you say that when you die that is it, so all the unsolved murderers and rapists receive no justice.

            That is why so many take the worldview that there is no God, because they don’t want accountability for all their sins.

            In the Biblical worldview, all accounts are settled in the end – either on the cross by Jesus Christ, or in eternal hell.

          • Gehennah

            Allowing someone to step in for you take take your punishment is immoral and not just because justice is being done to the wrong person.

            And no, you don’t understand my world view. if there were sufficient evidence of a god, then I would believe that that god exists. This isn’t to say I would worship that god as then that god would have to show he is worthy of my worship. Just being powerful doesn’t mean you are moral or worthy of worship.

            It has nothing to do with wanting to sin, or not wanting accountability. I acknowledge that many crimes will go unpunished, this isn’t by choice, this is just facing reality. But it has nothing to do with wanting to “sin.”

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            It would be immoral and not just if you or I was stepping in place of someone else’s punishment. But God is the giver and sustainer of life, and so Jesus taking our place on the cross is just punishment for our sins.

          • Gehennah

            And its still immoral and unjust.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Not when it’s the creator of the universe.

          • Gehennah

            I disagree. Being more powerful doesn’t mean you automatically get completely different moral standards.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Well, “nothing” is hard to get on Earth. Earth is full of somethings, so we have to artificially create vacuum.

            Then, we have to measure to see if we got something coming out of nothing, else we couldn’t know and what’s the point of the experiment if we have no way of measuring that which we are seeking? The plates are part of the measurement schema. The scientists did start with nothing (albeit artificially created nothing) and wait until something showed up. It was very small somethings with very small effects (quantum particles are like that), but still, there you have it. The fact that you are choosing not to fix your scientific illiteracy is really not our problem, except as it leads you to make already-debunked arguments.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            All this “something from nothing” argumentation is just pure folderol:

            Abbott: I want to talk to you about the quantum vacuum.

            Costello: You want to talk to me about what?

            Abbott: Nothing.

            Costello: So you don’t want to talk?

            Abbott: I do want to talk.

            Costello: Oh, OK. So what do you want to talk about?

            Abbott: Nothing

            Costello: But you just said you wanted to talk to me.

            Abbott: I do.

            Costello: So what do you want to talk to me about?

            Abbott: The quantum vacuum

            Costello: OK. Tell me about the quantum vacuum.

            Abbott: It’s nothing

            Costello: If it’s nothing than why do you want to talk about it?

            Abbott: Because it’s important.

            Costello: What is?

            Abbott: Nothing

            Costello: Nothing is important?

            Abbott: Yes, it’s very important.

            Costello: Then it must be something.

            Abbott: Of course it’s something.

            Costello: But you said it was nothing.

            Abbott: I certainly did.

            Costello: So the quantum vacuum is nothing, and it’s something, and it’s very important.

            Abbott: Exactly!

          • baal

            When it comes to talking about nothing, you’re no Shakespeare.

          • Gehennah

            You do realize that quoting the Bible doesn’t help your argument at all without actually supporting it with external evidence, something that you have failed to do.

            I can quote Harry Potter, it doesn’t mean you should take the quote seriously.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Well. The Bible is truth and Harry Potter is fiction.

            1 Corinthians 1:18 – For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

          • Gehennah

            The Bible is demonstrably not completely true.

            The resurrection accounts seem contradictory, the flood demonstrably never happened globally, and there is no evidence of the Exodus actually happening.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            All you have to do is Google “Bible and Archaeology” to find evidence.

            In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

            What’s your evidence of how everything came into existence.

          • Gehennah

            The universe that we see fits the Big Bang Theory perfectly. What caused it, we don’t know for sure, we are still researching it. A quantum vacuum could have caused it, and the universe that we see does match that model, but we are still doing more research.

            As to the Bible Archaeology, I’ve done tons of research into it. Some cities, some events in the Bible may have happened. But things like the flood and the exodus didn’t.

            It was one of the reasons that I stopped being a Christian.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            So how would you classify yourself, Athiest?

          • Gehennah

            I would consider myself an agnostic atheist.

            I do not believe in a god or gods. I am open to the belief of god or god(s) provided sufficient evidence.

          • Joseph O Polanco

            Science certainly has no experience of things popping into being ex nihilo sine causa. Bohmian quantum mechanics, for instance, is fully deterministic and states that any indeterminacy is merely conceptual.

            “Being does not arise from nonbeing”; “something cannot come from nothing”. These are putative metaphysical principles, like cause and effect, unrestricted in their application. Thence, we have very good grounds, both conceptually and scientifically, for believing that whatever begins to exist has a cause. (http://bit.ly/SSsy8x)

          • Rob

            “Science certainly has no experience of things popping into being ex nihilo sine causa”

            BZZZT. Try again. It’s been observed. (Kasmir Effect)

            “These are putative metaphysical principles, like cause and effect, unrestricted in their application.”

            BZZT. Try again. Effects without causes have been observed. (Radioactive Decay at the atomic level)

          • Joseph O Polanco

            i. Physical forces arising from a quantized field are no relations, potentialities, state of affairs, properties, or simply put, not “anything”? What newfangled dictionary of the English language are you using?

            ii. Argumentum ex incredulitátem. Science is not omniscient. Try again.

      • Joseph O Polanco

        Do you accept all evidence or just scientific evidence?

        • baal

          Do you accept voodoo ritual Loa possession divinely espoused wisdom as evidence?

    • Loqi

      Each of our sins against an infinitely good God is an infinite offense.

      I’ve never followed this logic. The degree of the offense is determined by how long-lasting the victim is? By this logic, stealing from a cancer patient is less of a crime than stealing from a perfectly healthy individual because the person without cancer is likely to be longer lived. Hell, by this logic, murder isn’t a crime at all, since the victim is dead and can no longer experience the offense. Every crime would be punishable by jail time for however long the victim lives. It takes a truly warped sense of justice and morality to think that way.

      And what’s this about an infinitely good god? Presumably, mercy is one of the qualities of a good being. Yet it’s impossible to be any *less* merciful than this god character. For example, if you walked up to me and punched me in the face, my response wouldn’t be to lock you up and torture you for eternity. I’d walk away from you. You’ve physically assaulted my person, and rather than give you what you deserve (a battery charge), I’ve allowed you to walk away. I’ve granted you some level of mercy despite your attack on me. Let’s compare this to god. According to him, I’ve committed the crime of not believing in him (which, by the way, he could remedy quite easily – I can demonstrate that I exist to anyone who requires such a thing, why can’t he? It’s a pretty simple task). For this crime, he could do what I did and just let it roll off his back. Or he could make me stub my toe or something. Or give me some sort of illness. Or, if he was really an asshole, he could kill me over this little insult. But no, he goes further. He damns me to hell, which, according to Christianity, is the *absolute worst thing that can even be conceived by the human mind*. How is that merciful? That’s like saying a guy who brutally stabs to death anyone who bumps him on the street is merciful. It’s the exact opposite of mercy.

      But, you say, he’s given us a way out of damnation, and that’s what makes him merciful. Well, let’s take a look back at our psychotic, knife-happy killing machine. If, after you bump him, he immediately tells you that he won’t kill you if you drop to your knees and give him oral sex in the street, is he now merciful?

      • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

        you know, we have a similar sense of justice. If I say I want to harm a person, it will largely go ignored or maybe some policeman would interview me. If I say I want to harm the president, I get arrested and am in jail. Just a small example.

        • Gehennah

          And in neither case do you get eternal punishment, the punishment fits the crime.

          Your god getting upset and punishing someone eternally it as unjust as it gets.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I guess this settles the sockpuppet question.

            Each of our sins is an infinite offense to an infinitely holy, righteous and just God.

            God’s punishment is judicial and the place he’s chosen as punishment is Hell, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

            Did you know that Jesus said, whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery in his heart. God not only measures us by our actions, but our thought life and intentions as well when he measures our sin.

          • Gehennah

            Actually I don’t know that Jesus said that and neither do you technically since the exact words (or any actual words) were likely not transcribed.

            And I don’t buy into the whole infinite offense to his infinitely holy righteousness because he allows murders and rapists into heaven.

            So to do that he has to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from himself by teaching himself how to forgive.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes, you are measuring God by your standards. If God was not loving and forgiving, then we would all end up in Hell, because we all sin. But many people make the mistake of thinking that God’s forgiveness is unjust because he allows sinners into heaven. But that is why He sent Jesus, to suffer the penalty for our sins and die on the cross and to rise from the dead on the third day.

            We all deserve hell, but because God so loved the world, He sent His only begotten Son, so that all who believe in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

            Please repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus.

          • Gehennah

            Two things.
            1) It is unjust to not punish someone who committed a crime, yet punish someone else instead.
            2) The ‘sacrifice” that Jesus did was pretty pointless. Why not just be able to forgive in the first place? 33 years isn’t much at all for an eternal being, at the most it was a slight inconvenience.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Jesus was on this earth 33 years to live a perfect and sinless life to fulfill all righteousness.

            the punishment Jesus bore was the wrath of God. While Jesus humbled Himself to become man, His punishment was the wrath of God. When He said, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me, it was because the full wrath of God was being poured out on Him. When He said it is finished, the penalty had been paid.

            It’s not unjust when God pays the penalty.

          • Gehennah

            It’s still unjust to have someone else take your punishment for you. I don’t care if its a god or an insect, you do the crime you do the time.

          • Cake

            Still having a hard time comprehending how a God could be wronged by any lesser creature.

          • Cake

            We have to measure god by our standards if the words loving and forgiving and justice are to have any meaning.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Unfortunately, you can’t go into a courtroom and say, Judge, I’m going to measure you by my standards.

            It doesn’t work that way. God is the Creator of the universe. He sets the standard, and the rules.

            If you want to earn your salvation, you only need to do one thing. Be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Unfortunately, you can’t go into a courtroom and say, Judge, I’m going to measure you by my standards.

            If a human judge would do his / her best to emulate “Gods justice” – which means sentencing everyone to death by torture for the crime of being human, sane people would think that this judge is a dangerous lunatic. And you believe that a judge who did the same thing, only infinitely worse, turns from “dangerous lunatic” to “perfectly just”?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            If you really view hell as torture and not judicial punishment, it’s all the more reason to avoid going there.

            Repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus.

          • Andy_Schueler

            If you really view hell as torture and not judicial punishment, it’s all the more reason to avoid going there.

            The hell you believe in is torture by definition, and the God you believe in is infinitely unjust, by definition. You simply try to redefine those words to mean their exact opposite.
            Also:
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5iwOKdOf4w

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Ok. I watched the video. what do you want to talk about?

          • Andy_Schueler

            Oops, sorry, my bad, that was the wrong video – I actually meant this one:
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGMR9dnv2VM

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            ok, I watched the video. What do you want to talk about?

          • Cake

            Wrong.
            A courtroom is made up of my peers I have no problem with standards created by my peers.

            If the actions of your god doesn’t meet the human standards of kind and loving, its time to stop using those words to describe it.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            The Creator of the universe makes the rules. His standard is perfection.

            Be perfect and my Father in heaven is perfect

          • Andy_Schueler

            The Creator of the universe makes the rules. His standard is perfection.

            Well, since the Bible says that humanity is not only flawed, but pretty much a FUBAR case (e.g. Romans 3:10) – this alleged creator apparently didn´t exactly live up to his standard when he allegedly created humans.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            He didn’t make robots. He allowed us to choose against Him so that He could be glorified in offering us salvation through Jesus.

          • Andy_Schueler

            He didn’t make robots.

            You said earlier:
            “When someone repents of their sins and puts their trust in Christ, the penalty of those sins are paid by Christ and you become a new creation, desiring to please God and not sin.”
            I presume that those “new creations” do not count as robots (although they apparently can no longer choose to not disobey God) and that this is what God wants. So he could have created these “new creations” from the get go instead of fucking up his old creations and then punishing them for his fuck ups.
            Your faith makes no sense.

            He allowed us to choose against Him so that He could be glorified in offering us salvation through Jesus.

            Well since you believe that it is impossible to not “needs Jesus”, this could not have been a choice, if it were a choice, it would not be impossible to not “need Jesus”.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            No. Christians still sin. When you are a new creation, God gives us the ability not to sin, but will still do. But with Fatherly love, He guides and changes us over time. I don’t need to be made a robot. I want to please God the Father.

            Even the Apostle Paul, whom through God wrote much of the New Testament saw himself as a “a foremost sinner (verse 15)

            1 Timothy 1:12-17 – I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, 13 though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. 17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

          • Andy_Schueler

            “No. Christians still sin. When you are a new creation, God gives us the ability not to sin, but will still do.”
            - So there will be sin in heaven?

            “But with Fatherly love, He guides and changes us over time.”

            - Since the only difference between christians and non-christians is some beliefs, this “change” seems to be invisible.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes, that is unfortunate. There are many false Christians. Even Jesus said that many are not saved.

            Matthew 7:13-14: Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

            Unfortunately, many churches today teach believe in Christ, say a little prayer and you are saved. Jesus is the narrow gate. But the Bible doesn’t teach that you say a little prayer in your life and you are saved. There is a narrow road. The narrow road doesn’t save you, but if you have truly repented and put your trust in Christ, your life will be more and more a reflection of Christ (narrow road.)

          • Andy_Schueler

            So there is sin in heaven?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Nope. God fully sanctifies us in heaven. While we are on this earth though, we will continue to sin.

          • Andy_Schueler

            So you will be a robot in heaven?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            No. I will willingly bow before my Savior and Lord.

          • Andy_Schueler

            So God wants people like that, can make people like that, and they would not be “robots” (which makes your earlier comment re robots meaningless btw), but he chose not to that – and then punishes his creation for his fuck up.
            I know I have asked this several times already, but it really seems as if you´ve never thought this stuff through… Contradictions galore.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            No contradictions and yes I have thought this through.

            I have identified the problem – Sin, which is lawlessness. I have described that sin – have you ever told a lie, stolen anything, looked with lust (adultery).

            I have told you the consequences of your sin – hell, because God is a just and good judge, He will punish sinners in hell.

            I’ve also told you the good news, the solution. That Jesus, fully God and fully man, came to this earth, lived a perfect and sinless life and died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins and rose from the dead on third day.

            I’ve also told you the how. To repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ.

            Finally, I have said that if you choose not to repent and put your trust in Christ, then you are without excuse.

            I also know that the cross of Christ is foolishness to those who are perishing and I pray that your eyes will be opened to the saving gospel of Jesus Christ.

          • Andy_Schueler

            “No contradictions”
            - Well now you are simply being dishonest. Every time I point out a contradiction and you run out of answers (as has happened right now – you completely ignored the comment you replied to where I pointed out yet another contradiction) , you simply go right back to zero and just start over with the same gibberish as if nothing happened.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes. We have a different world view and so I understand that you see contradictions where I do not. Where do you want to go from here?

          • Andy_Schueler

            1. I´ve met plenty of people with worldviews different than my own – yet we all agree on the same laws of logic.
            2. I recognize these contradictions when I assume that your worldview is correct.

            Sorry, but your religious views are logically flawed.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Ok. I’ll bite, even if it’s only going to be a short sidestep.

            Why do you use logic? I’m not being facetious. This is a serious question.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Why do you use logic?

            For the same reason why everyone else does, because it works.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            So you use logic because it’s logical?

          • Andy_Schueler

            “it works” is not synonymous to “it´s logical”

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            ok. define how “it works”?

          • Andy_Schueler

            For the particular application that is relevant in this context right now, it would be informal logic – and it works by identifying whether arguments are valid or fallacious and whether propositions are coherent or not.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            You may have to rephrase that so I can make better sense because it appears by your response that there are not laws of logic and that laws of logic depend on the context of the discussion, which means that there are not “laws” of logic.

            Never the less, let me ask this:

            If I tell you to repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus Christ because “it works,” wouldn’t it be logical to conclude that you would only know if “it works” if you repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ? And if you refuse, then you simply don’t know if it works, because you have not done it?

          • Andy_Schueler

            You may have to rephrase that so I can make better sense because it appears by your response that there are not laws of logic and that laws of logic depend on the context of the discussion…

            Of course they depend on the context – what we are talking about (if we would talk about quantum mechanics, classical logic is not always applicable, to name one example) and how we communicate (whether we use a natural language like english or a formal system to express ideas, for example).

            If I tell you to repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus Christ because “it works,” wouldn’t it be logical to conclude that you would only know if “it works” if you repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ?

            Nope, it wouldn´t be, because I would only know if it works when I´m dead, and if another religion would turn out to be true – I would be fucked.
            But, more importantly, you presume that this is a choice. It obviously isn´t. I cannot choose to believe in something I don´t actually believe in (and apologists seem to realize that because, like you, they are very careful in avoiding the word “believe” and replacing it with “trust” – as if you could trust something you don´t believe in).

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes, believe is correct, but there is a distinction. You can “believe” but it can be inadequate, because you can’t just “believe the facts” of Jesus death and resurrection, you have to put your trust or confidence in it.

            You can know while you are on this earth. You don’t have to wait until you are dead. When you repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ, you are given the Holy Spirit so that you can know and have a relationship with God.

            So asking me to not believe that God exists would be like asking me not to believe my wife exists. I know them both.

          • Andy_Schueler

            So asking me to not believe that God exists would be like asking me not to believe my wife exists.

            I know, you can´t choose to not believe that your wife exists. And I can´t choose to believe that your God exists. Beliefs are not chosen.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            We don’t have to spend a lot of time here, because I know that you guys (yes I’m generalizing atheist/agnostic types) get very angry at this, but the Bible explains that you do choose not to believe:

            Romans 1:18-20 – The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

          • Andy_Schueler

            No, we don´t get angry at this, I actually laugh out loud every time someone copypastes Romans 1 :-D
            This time it´s even more funny than usual because you just said:
            “So asking me to not believe that God exists would be like asking me not to believe my wife exists. I know them both.”
            => Your wife obviously doesn´t exist! You just “suppressed the truth” that you killed her five years ago!! ;-)

            Also, protip: if you want to proselytize among people that are not monotheists (e.g. Hindus or Atheists), avoid Romans 1 like the plague – if you want to convince someone that the Bible is not full of shit, citing verses that they know to be transparently and spectacularly false is literally the worst thing you can do ;-)

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Thanks, but I think I’ll take my tips from the Bible.

            1 Corinthians 1:18 – For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

            1 Corinthians 2:1-5 – And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

          • Andy_Schueler

            1 Corinthians 1:18 – For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

            :-D Yeah, you might want to avoid this one as well for proselytization purposes.

            It literally means “alright, our beliefs are bugfucking nuts, but only to the uninitiated, after you believe them, they make total sense!!”.
            Scientologists have stolen this idea btw, if you ask them some questions about all this Xenu crap, they will also tell you that these ideas make no sense to you before you reached the OT level (i.e. the scientology version of “being saved”).

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Difference of course is that the Bible is truth.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Prove it.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus Christ and you will know.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Already proven to be impossible. Next.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            It is possible it might be impossible for you. That is what I fear. But it is not impossible, for I have repented of my sins and put my trust in Christ.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Why would you fear that, don´t you look forward to this perfect justice?? ;-)
            And after you have demonstrated that you can freely chose to genuinely believe that your wife is actually not real and turn this genuine belief on and off like a light switch – I might start believing that you have a point here.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Because there is no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I would rather that all come to repentance.

            Ezekiel 33:11 – ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways

          • Andy_Schueler

            No pleasure, alright, but what is there to fear?? I mean, since I “suppress the truth through my wickedness” and since Hitler believed in a creator, I must be much, much worse than Hitler ;-)

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I don’t fear for my life. Just yours.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Awww… how nice of you! But I don´t want to stand in the way of perfect justice ;-)

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            One of my favorite preachers is Charles Spurgeon. He wrote this:

            “If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.”

          • Andy_Schueler

            Nah, I´ll go with perfect justice – sounds awesome ;-)

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Not really.

            Revelation 20:11-15 – Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Ah, so you don´t like justice? Well, I do ;-)

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            No. Justice is good. But when you throw a life line to someone there is no joy when they throw it back.

          • Andy_Schueler

            I see no life line anywhere and I certainly didn´t throw anything back. But who cares, as long as justice will be served ;-)

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Here is the whole message, including the life line:

            We have all broken God’s law. We have all stolen, lied, looked with lust (adultery of the heart according to God) . Because God is a just and holy God, he must punish sin (like a just and good judge who punishes a murderer by sending him to prison.) Each of our sins against an infinitely good God is an infinite offense. God’s prison is hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm never dies. The Bible says God is rich in mercy and loving and He made a way for us so that we don’t have to go to hell. He sent His Son, Jesus, fully God and fully man to live a perfect and sinless life and to die on the cross as payment for our sins. On the third day he was resurrected and defeated death and sin. God has two requirements of us. That we repent of our sins (turn from our sins, turn from our worldly ways) and turn towards Christ and that we believe in and put our trust in Christ’s perfect life and sacrificial death on the cross. So please, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

          • Andy_Schueler

            So if you had raped and murdered a few hundred women, and someone offers to take your place in prison for that and you can walk away a free man, you would actually take that offer? I guess you don´t like justice after all.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            We all deserve eternal torment in hell because each of us has sinned against God. Why did He make a provision for a wretch like me, by Jesus dying on the cross, instead of just sending me and everyone else to Hell. So that we could see His glory and mercy and grace. That’s why He allowed sin in the world, so that we could see His greatness in saving those who do not deserve it.

          • Andy_Schueler

            So you like justice but you want things you don´t deserve? That´s eating your cake and having it too – make up your mind. I´ll go with justice.

          • baal

            Will you at least try the naked dancing in a swamp thing if I promise to bring a goat this time?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Mark 8:36 – For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?

          • baal

            I have bitten a thousand humans and yet to taste their soul. Souls, like the rest of the supernatural fuferawe, don’t have evidence for their existance.

          • Cake

            We were talking about the meaning of words and now you’ve deflected to the subject of perfection. An honest person wouldn’t need to do that.

            If you can’t convince yourself how do you expect to convince others?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            What word you like me to discuss the meaning of?

          • Cake

            The ones you deflected from, moron.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Each of our sins is an infinite offense to an infinitely holy, righteous and just God.

            God’s punishment is judicial and the place he’s chosen as punishment is Hell, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

            So, the “just” punishment for a little girl that takes something from the cookie jar without asking first, is infinite torture. And the “just” punishment for raping and killing 100 girls, is also infinite torture. It seems that the christianese word “justice” is simply the exact opposite of the english word “justice”.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Each person is punished according to their works which are kept on record until the day of judgment.

            Revelation 20:11-15: Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

            Revelation 21:8 – But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

          • Andy_Schueler

            Each person is punished according to their works which are kept on record until the day of judgment.

            I´m still working on my christianese skills, so in english “according to their works” means “infinite torture for everyone” – infinite torture for the little girl that “stole” something from the cookie + infinite torture for the serial rapist / murderer, correct?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Your example is setting up a false argument by creating a person that doesn’t exist. Let’s look at two verses in the Bible. How many of these sins have you committed:

            1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God

          • Andy_Schueler

            All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Your example is setting up a false argument by creating a person that doesn’t exist.

            Little girls don´t exist? Alright… Then I´ll change my example:
            So the christianese phrase “according to their works” means in english: “infinite torture for everyone” – a jewish girl that died in Auschwitz gets the exact same punishment as Hitler, correct?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            No. each is punished according to their works. But yes, all who don’t repent of their sins and put their trust in Christ go to hell. So whatever the punishment is, each according to his works, then that punishment is eternal. All the more reason to avoid going there.

            1 Corinthians 15:1-4: Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
            3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

          • Andy_Schueler

            No. each is punished according to their works. But yes, all who don’t repent of their sins and put their trust in Christ go to hell.

            Alright. So yes, the jewish girl that died in Auschwitz and Hitler get the exact same punishment. And “according to their works” thus means in english “works are irrelevant, one size fits all”.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            A Jewish female and Hitler both go to hell (the Bible shows that babies go to heaven but the Bible is silent as to what age someone is accountable, so most Christians define it as the age of reason*see below) but they don’t both get the same punishment. But both punishments last for eternity.

            But yes, if you want to earn your way to heaven, then you must live up to God’s standards which are:

            Jesus said, Be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect.

            For whoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumble at one point is guilty of all.

            *Age of Reason

            I think the best way to answer that is to say this: There is no “age of accountability” identified in Scripture, as such. There is nothing in the Bible that says, “Here is the age and from here on you are responsible!” I think the reason for that is because children mature at different paces. That would be true from culture to culture, and from age to age in history.

            So the Lord in His wisdom didn’t identify a specific moment. God knows when each soul is accountable. God knows when real rejection has taken place; when the love of sin exists in the heart. When enmity with God is conscious and willful. God alone knows when that occurs

          • Andy_Schueler

            but they don’t both get the same punishment. But both punishments last for eternity.

            Yeah, that is a distinction without a difference. If 1 represents the mildest conceivable form of punishment and 10 the harshest conceivable form of punishment, try multiplying 1 with infinity and 10 with infinity (hint: the result is infinity in both cases). So both get infinite torture and works are completely irrelevant.

            But yes, if you want to earn your way to heaven, then you must live up to God’s standards which are:
            Jesus said, Be perfect as my Father in heaven is perfect.

            So you believe that God didn´t make us perfect and then punishes us for not being perfect?
            Makes about as much sense as telling your son to jump a million meters high and torturing him to death if he refuses to “obey your orders”.

            I think the reason for that is because children mature at different paces.
            ….
            So the Lord in His wisdom didn’t identify a specific moment. God knows when each soul is accountable.

            That is a contradiction. You believe that there is a specific moment t when someone is “accountable” (i.e. deserves infinite torture). Which means that 0.00000000001 seconds before t, (s)he did not deserve infinite torture. In other words, there can be no “maturing” if this is true, because maturing is a gradual process – there can only be a specific moment where you instantly jump from “not mature at all” to “totally mature” with no development in between whatsoever.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes, there is a moment of accountability. Only God knows and defines that moment. The important thing to know is that you have already reached that moment of accountability.

            God made Adam and Eve without sin and they chose to sin against God and so sin and death entered the world through them.

            But we also sin. Just compare yourself against the ten commandments. Have you ever lied, stolen, taken the Lord’s name in vain, looked with lust (which is adultery). Then you too fall short of God’s standard.

            Because God is a just judge, He is angry with the wicked every day and the place of punishment He has chosen is Hell.

            The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. Instead He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

            For God so loved the world, He sent His Son, fully God and fully man, to live a perfect and sinless life and to die on the cross for our sins, and to be raised on the third day.

            Salvation is to all who repent of their sins and put their trust in Christ and His sacrificial death and resurrection.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Yes, there is a moment of accountability. Only God knows and defines that moment.

            In that case you have to retract what you said about “maturing” earlier because this can only be true if “maturing” is no process – we simply instantly jump from zero maturity to total maturity at one moment.

            But we also sin.

            So God didn´t create us perfectly and then punishes us for not being perfect.

            Because God is a just judge

            So you believe that a judge who has to decide over two cases, a) a man who stole a loaf of bread to feed his starving family and b) a man who tortured 100 children to death, and sentences both to the exact same punishment – death by torture, would be more “just” than a judge who would judge them based on what they did? You realize that the christianese “just” thus is simply the exact opposite of the english “just”?

            For God so loved the world, He sent His Son, fully God and fully man, to live a perfect and sinless life and to die on the cross for our sins

            I don´t know if you´ve ever met someone who wasn´t indoctrinated with this stuff as a child – for those people, the latter sentence is complete gibberish, pure and undiluted semantic nonsense.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            God judged the world through Adam, and saved the world through Jesus. But lest you think you are an innocent victim, look at all your sins. (lied? stolen? looked with lust?)

            There is a moment of accountability, we mature and hit that age. Don’t know when it is. Have to ask God on that one.

            This is a ridiculous argument. You are setting up a false argument. Please show me the person who stole a loaf of bread to feed a starving family yet has never done anything else wrong in his whole life. You have created a fictional situation.

            Have you stolen? downloaded music on the internet without paying for it? Stolen time from your employer by not putting in a full days work?

            Yes, I understand. People don’t want to be accountable for their sins and so they don’t want to believe in Jesus for it is foolishness to them.

            1 Corinthians 1:18 – For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

          • Andy_Schueler

            God judged the world through Adam

            Yeah, that makes no sense either. You could say that every human being that ever existed or will exist would have done the same thing as Adam, but that would simply mean that Adam´s “test” was rigged and impossible to pass – and if you don´t say that it would mean that God intends to “judge” us for things we didn´t do.

            But lest you think you are an innocent victim, look at all your sins. (lied? stolen? looked with lust?)

            You can try the Humpty Dumpty approach and say that being hungry is the same as eating a big fat steak, which makes about as much sense as saying that “looking with lust” is adultery – but that simply means that you don´t understand how words work.

            There is a moment of accountability, we mature and hit that age.

            Nope, that can´t be true given what you said earlier – make up your mind, you can´t have your cake and eat it too.

            This is a ridiculous argument. You are setting up a false argument. Please show me the person who stole a loaf of bread to feed a starving family yet has never done anything else wrong in his whole life. You have created a fictional situation.

            That makes it even easier doesn´t it? So a godly and “just” judge would then simply sentence everyone in his courtroom to death by torture for being human – we can completely do away with trials and save a lot of time.

            Yes, I understand. People don’t want to be accountable for their sins and so they don’t want to believe in Jesus for it is foolishness to them.

            :-D :-D :-D
            Right! And next I´ll choose to believe that there is no police and rob a bank, and after that, I´ll choose to believe that there is no gravity and jump from a high building! Makes total sense ;-).
            Btw, if you are right, the only way to not be accountable for anything I did would be believing the same stuff that you believe – so you honestly think that I want to “avoid accountability” by not doing the ONLY THING I could do to avoid accountability?? Seriously, that might be single stupidest thing I´ve ever heard ;-).

            1 Corinthians 1:18 – For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

            So you have to believe the Bible, but the Bible makes no sense to you unless you believe the Bible? Are you sure you´ve thought that through?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Unfortunately, you will be accountable to God, whether you choose to believe in Him or not.

            Romans 14:11-12 – For it is written, “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.” 12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God

          • Andy_Schueler

            Unfortunately, you will be accountable to God, whether you choose to believe in Him or not.

            I presume you don´t believe that it is possible to choose to not believe in the police or believe that the moon is made out of green cheese or believe that 2+2=42. But you do believe that it is possible to not believe in your God. Strange isn´t it? (Hint: whether you believe in libertarian free will or not – beliefs cannot be chosen in either case.)

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            No, I believe that you choose to suppress the truth.

            Romans 1:18 – The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

            You choose to suppress the truth about God because you don’t want there to be a God that holds everyone accountable for their actions.

          • Andy_Schueler

            So, do you believe that I could choose to “suppress the truth” that there is a police and then rob a bank because I have nothing to worry about with no police existing? I guess not. And that should tell you that your “suppressing the truth” schtick is BS.

            “You choose to suppress the truth about God because you don’t want there to be a God that holds everyone accountable for their actions.”
            - So you believe that I choose to not do the only thing I could do to avoid accountability alltogether because I don´t want to be held accountable? You realize that this makes exactly as much sense as telling a guy who just donated all his money to charity “you only gave all your money away because you wanted to have a lot of money!!”?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            So you believe that I choose to not do the only thing I could do to avoid accountability alltogether because I don´t want to be held accountable?

            You are going to have to phrase that differently so that I can understand your point and respond.

            But yes, you are denying there is a judge. Simple as that. You don’t want to be held accountable for your sins, so you pretend (suppress the truth) there is no God, so that you can live your life pretending there are no eternal consequences.

            God gave us a conscious so we know that we have sinned against Him. We inherently know it is wrong to break the ten commandments. I’m hoping that a nerve will be touched in you or someone else which is why I continually post about what is a sin and is not.

            Romans 3:20: Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

            Matthew 5:28 – But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

          • Andy_Schueler

            So you believe that I choose to not do the only thing I could do to avoid accountability alltogether because I don´t want to be held accountable?
            You are going to have to phrase that differently so that I can understand your point and respond.

            You describe Jesus as a get-out-of-jail-free card – an option to avoid punishment for anything you did, and you also accuse me of “not wanting to be held accountable”.
            And this literally makes exactly as much sense as telling me that the only reason for why I DON´T want a get-out-of-jail-free card is because I want to avoid prison.

            But yes, you are denying there is a judge. Simple as that. You don’t want to be held accountable for your sins, so you pretend (suppress the truth) there is no God, so that you can live your life pretending there are no eternal consequences.

            Do you, or do you not believe that I could suppress the truth that there is a police and then rob a bank because I don´t have to worry about the police? How many times do I have to ask you that and why are you unable to answer this question?
            I tell you what I believe, I believe that you realize that what you say here is complete BS. But you are afraid of admitting to yourself that the Bible could be wrong on anything – so you make up the craziest stories to not face the harsh reality that the Bible is transparently and spectacularly wrong on this issue.

            God gave us a conscious so we know that we have sinned against Him. We inherently know it is wrong to break the ten commandments.

            You really have never met anyone who wasn´t indoctrinated into christianity as a child did you? What you said here literally could not be more wrong. The only “commandments” that are obvious to anyone are those that no culture on this planet ever disagreed with. For the others, we don´t only not know inherently that they are wrong – we don´t even know inherently that they exist! I had no idea what a “sabbath” is supposed to be or what “taking the lords name in vain” is supposed to mean or who this alleged “Lord” is even supposed to be before I learned about Christianity.

            Matthew 5:28 – But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

            Yeah, just like being hungry is like eating a big fat steak in your heart. Makes total sense.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            —Do you, or do you not believe that I could suppress the truth that there is a police and then rob a bank because I don´t have to worry about the police? How many times do I have to ask you that and why are you unable to answer this question?—

            Yes. That is what you are doing. I thought I answered it with the judge, but you are pretending there are no police or judge. That is what is so amazing to me. Or as another example, you are sitting in a plane and pretending there is no making of the plane. You are in creation and deny there is a creator.

            —-You describe Jesus as a get-out-of-jail-free card – an option to avoid punishment for anything you did, and you also accuse me of “not wanting to be held accountable”. And this literally makes exactly as much sense as telling me that the only reason for why I DON´T want a get-out-of-jail-free card is because I want to avoid prison.—-

            When someone repents of their sins and puts their trust in Christ, the penalty of those sins are paid by Christ and you become a new creation, desiring to please God and not sin. You are reformed.

            What I am saying is that you want to go on living life according to your standards and not the standard of the Bible which is moral perfection. Because you want to continue to live in sin (which are not sins by your standards) you deny God.

            My question for you is what worldly pleasure, what worldly lust of the heart is worth all eternity in hell?

            did you know that anger or hatred towards one another is murder of the heart?

            Matthew 5:22 – But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Yes. That is what you are doing. I thought I answered it with the judge, but you are pretending there are no police or judge. That is what is so amazing to me. Or as another example, you are sitting in a plane and pretending there is no making of the plane. You are in creation and deny there is a creator.

            Wow. Wow. WOW….. So, let me get this straight – you actually do believe that it is possible to choose to believe that there is no gravity and then jump from a high building without a worry in the world – and you also believe it is possible to choose to believe that there is no police and no judges and then rob a bank without a worry in the world?
            Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I´m pretty sure that qualifies as clinically insane. Have you had any problems with alcohol or substance abuse?

            When someone repents of their sins and puts their trust in Christ, the penalty of those sins are paid by Christ and you become a new creation, desiring to please God and not sin. You are reformed.

            Yeah… I´ve seen enough Christians to know that this is BS. As Nietzsche said “Die Christen müssten mir erlöster aussehen, wenn ich an ihren Erlöser glauben sollte.” (“Christians should look more saved if they want me to believe in their saviour” – it sounds nicer in german because the german word for “saved” has the additional meanings of “being relieved / free of pain and worries”).

            My question for you is what worldly pleasure, what worldly lust of the heart is worth all eternity in hell?

            That question has no semantic meaning to anyone who doesn´t believe in your version of Christianity.

            did you know that anger or hatred towards one another is murder of the heart?

            Yeah, like being hungry is eating a big fat steak in the heart.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            ——–Wow. Wow. WOW….. So, let me get this straight – you actually do believe that it is possible to choose to believe that there is no gravity and then jump from a high building without a worry in the world – and you also believe it is possible to choose to believe that there is no police and no judges and then rob a bank without a worry in the world?
            Amazing. Absolutely amazing. I´m pretty sure that qualifies as clinically insane. Have you had any problems with alcohol or substance abuse?———

            No, I don’t drink or do drugs. But yes, you are sitting in an airplane and denying there is a maker of that airplane. The same way you are in creation and denying there is a Creator. The same way you are sinning and denying there is a judge, or even a standard, and you are denying there is a prison, which is hell.

            Revelation 21:8 – But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

            1 Corinthians 5:20-21 – We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

          • Andy_Schueler

            No, I don’t drink or do drugs.

            You might still want to get your mental health examined. Honestly believing that you could choose to genuinely believe that there is no police is pretty much as insane as it possibly gets.

            But yes, you are sitting in an airplane and denying there is a maker of that airplane.

            Nope, I´m actually at home.

            The same way you are in creation and denying there is a Creator.

            Yeah, that might be the worst analogy I´ve ever heard. Unless of course you could prove that science is completely wrong about pretty much everything and show me a construction site where your “Creator” is just busy making universes or planets or stuff like that, you know something like this: http://images.defensetech.org/images/airplane-construction.jpg – then, and only then, would these situations be analogous (hint: there would also be no atheists or no non-christians in that case).

            The same way you are sinning and denying there is a judge, or even a standard, and you are denying there is a prison, which is hell.

            So, what is your explanation for why I allegedly do that with your “God”, but not with our actual police and our actual judges? Since you believe I just want to “sin” and since you believe I could just choose to not believe in any of this, what is your explanation for why I don´t actually do this and start robbing banks or stealing cars or whatever?

            Revelation 21:8 – But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

            Wait… don´t tell me you believe in wizards as well?

          • islandbrewer

            But yes, you are sitting in an airplane and denying there is a maker of that airplane. The same way you are in creation and denying there is a Creator.

            Gah! You’re dragging in the “existence=designed” fallacy, again. Planes have indicia (signs) of artifice, indicators of manufacture. The universe, quite frankly, does not. We observe accretion disks around other stars, and we figure out how planets form without seeing any “cosmic broom” sweeping up dust into a big ball. We observe gas clouds forming stars, see stars in different stages of development, without any cosmic “starsmith.”

            Can we just get back to where you accuse us of not being actual atheists, and lying about god because we want to swear and have sex?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Gah! read my other post to you. Should clear up my intent with this line of discussion.

          • islandbrewer

            This may sound a little off, because I originally meant to respond to you a couple comments ago, however:

            You choose to suppress the truth about God because you don’t want there to be a God that holds everyone accountable for their actions.

            Yeah, about that:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CqLtbw0rlM

            As you can see, that argument makes no sense (at least not to us). It would be more logical to say that you’ve invited Jesus into your life so you can just keep on sinning because you’ll be forgiven.

            I won’t make that argument, because I don’t believe it’s true. I take you at your word that you actually believe in Jesus. I don’t think you “believe” just as a motivation to sin. I think you honestly and sincerely believe.

            You, however, won’t extend the same courtesy to us. When we say that we don’t believe, you tell us we choose to suppress the truth. In other words, you accuse us of actually believing, but pretending not to.

            And,

            … you become a new creation, desiring to please God and not sin.

            Forgive the cynicism, but christians appear to desire to sin every bit as much as atheists, as far as I’ve seen.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Ok, so unlike Joseph, I did click on your link because I don’t think you are getting extra credit with Dawkins or anything.

            By the way, my favorite part was when the Atheist starting crying and said “you got me”

            I actually do know that this video represents how you think about this argument. I also know that more than any other topic, this seems to get the most attention and so I am happy to continue to discuss it as it allows me to insert Biblical truth into the discussion. However, what I don’t expect this particular argument to do is convince you. Never have and never will. While it is a Biblical truth, it’s something you will not understand unless you believe. I know you will say that I should use logical arguments so that I can convince you to believe, but that’s now how it works.

            See, God does the saving. He chooses to save people through proclamation of the Gospel. Which is Christ dying or being crucified for our sins. 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 puts forth my intent most eloquently:

            And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

            The way it works is believe so that you might understand. Not understand so that you might believe. That’s why I will always be a one trick pony. Preaching the gospel of Christ. But the full gospel of Christ includes talking about the problem which includes sin, judgment and hell and the solution of repentance as well as faith in Christ.

            Your cynicism is well placed. Christians are sinners. I hate that part of my life and wish I could fully deny my sinful tendencies. I will tell you I sin less than before I was a believer out of a desire to please God the Father.

            Unfortunately, many Christians in America teach that just say a little prayer in your heart, say that you are sincere and poof, you’ve jumped out of the line to hell and in the line to heaven. Many don’t preach on sin or hell because they are uncomfortable. They say a little prayer and praise God on Sunday and live their lives during the week as if He doesn’t exist.

            I belong to a street witnessing team that goes out and proclaims Jesus. I talk to people etc. Funny though, the people that seem to hate my message the most are many Christians who say that I should just focus on God’s love and not sin, hell etc. But that is not the true gospel.

            The easiest place for someone to hide their sinful life is to go to church on Sunday. I used to do that. It’s heartbreaking, but the Bible teaches many people who say “Lord, Lord” (i.e. are Christians) will face a terrible thing on judgment day, because they profess faith, but are false believers. It’s in Matthew 7:21-23:

            Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

            By the way, I’ve noticed you’ve said a couple nice things about me now in your posts. I appreciate that.

          • Andy_Schueler

            While it is a Biblical truth, it’s something you will not understand unless you believe.

            Makes total sense! Here is another truth for you:
            =)RH)§BFPBW§ÜFJMNIP§UTHP”§CFMKLW§FP
            => Choose to believe that, then it will make sense to you.

            The way it works is believe so that you might understand. Not understand so that you might believe.

            Well, choosing to believe something would be silly enough, because beliefs cannot be chosen. Choosing to believe something that is complete gibberish to you adds an extra layer of sillyness on top, see above.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            RH)§BFPBW§ÜFJMNIP§UTHP”§CFMKLW§FP

            I choose to believe that those are just random letters.

            But God is real and there is a day of judgment –

            Hebrews 9:27 – And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

          • Andy_Schueler

            No, they are not random letters – believe that this is true, then it will make sense to you.

            Seriously though, have you ever thought this stuff through?
            If I tell you “there is a God and if you don´t choose to believe that the moon is made out of green cheese, he will kick the shit out of you” – that would already be remarkably silly.
            But if I further tell you that the moon being made out of green cheese makes no sense to you until you actually believe it, and that before you believe it, you might understand “being made out of green cheese” as “being made out of yellow paper” – then we get something that is finally as silly as the story you are trying to peddle.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Seriously, I have thought this through.

            See, God does the saving. He chooses to save people through proclamation of the Gospel. Which is Christ dying or being crucified for our sins. 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 puts forth my intent most eloquently:

            And so it was with me, brothers and sisters. When I came to you, I did not come with eloquence or human wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

            And the reason that I am so persistent is that I don’t want this to be your fate:

            Revelation 20:10 – and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

            Revelation 21:5-8 – 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
            6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

          • Andy_Schueler

            Seriously, I have thought this through.

            I doubt that.

            See, God does the saving. He chooses to save people through proclamation of the Gospel.

            Ah, so you believe that we actually can´t believe this stuff, your “God” simply makes us believe it or doesn´t if he´d really like to torture us for eternity? But he can only make us believe it after people like you tell us about it because…. reasons.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            What I do know, is that salvation is a miracle of God and He chooses to save people through the proclamation of the Gospel.

            1 Corinthians 15:1-4 – Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

            3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

            Please repent of your sins and put your trust In Jesus.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Ah, so you´re not even trying anymore eh?
            Well, two people can play that game: please repent of your sins and realize that there is only one God, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) was his prophet. If you don´t believe that, the fires of hell await you where your flesh will burn and regrow and burn again for all eternity.
            Sounds totally stupid if it´s not your God and not your hell, doesn´t it?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Trying? I’ve always been trying to work into my posts that you are a sinner, headed for hell, but God so loved the world that He sent His Son, Jesus, fully God and fully Man, to live a perfect life, die on the cross for our sins, and to be resurrected on the third day.

            Eternal life is for those who repent of their sins, and believe in Christ.

            No, it doesn’t sound stupid, just wrong. You have to believe in the right God. You are either correct or not. And the Islamic “god” is not the right God. Islam teaches:

            Sura 23:102-103 – And those whose scales are heavy [with good deeds] – it is they who are the successful. But those whose scales are light – those are the ones who have lost their souls, [being] in Hell, abiding eternally.

            That is not consistent with Biblical teaching:

            Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast

          • Andy_Schueler

            Trying? I’ve always been trying to work into my posts that you are a sinner, headed for hell,

            You are not trying. You seem to subscribe to some form of presuppositional apologetics – which means that you are actually not trying to convince anyone, you simply repeat “I am right because I am right” ad nauseam.

            You are either correct or not. And the Islamic “god” is not the right God. Islam teaches:

            Sura 23:102-103 – And those whose scales are heavy [with good deeds] – it is they who are the successful. But those whose scales are light – those are the ones who have lost their souls, [being] in Hell, abiding eternally.

            That is not consistent with Biblical teaching:

            :-D :-D :-D
            Ok, let me try that – you are believing in the wrong God because your God is not consistent with the teachings of the holy Qur’an:
            “It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, “Be”, and it is. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: therefore serve Him; this is the Straight Way. [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 19:35-36]“

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I understand what you are saying. I’m just saying that you need to repent and put your trust in Christ so that you will understand the truth.

            Don’t believe me. That’s ok, just repent of your sins and put your trust in the Savior, Jesus Christ, and you will be saved – and understand.

          • Andy_Schueler

            I understand what you are saying. I’m just saying that you need to repent and put your trust in Christ so that you will understand the truth.

            Translation: I understand what your saying, I´m just saying that I don´t understand what you are saying.

            Don’t believe me. That’s ok, just repent of your sins and put your trust in the Savior, Jesus Christ, and you will be saved – and understand.Christ

            It´s ok if you don´t believe me. Just repent for your sins and put your trust in his holy word recorded in the Qu’ran – you will be saved and understand Allah.

          • Cake

            Only a weak god would need to have a son.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            The Father sent the Son so that they may be glorified. So that we may see their glory.

            When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Given your ongoing exchange with Jo in the other thread – you do realize that you cannot even convince a fellow Christian of your claims by copy-pasting bible verses, don´t you? So why do you expect that copy-pasting bible verses will convince people who believe that the Bible is largely fictional?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Jehovah’s Witness’ are not Christian. They believe in a false Jesus and change the Bible to fit what they want it to teach.

            Joseph is to be evangelized just as you are and anyone who doesn’t repent of their sins and put their trust in Jesus.

          • Andy_Schueler

            From an outsider perspective, this really is quite hilarious. Catholic fundies say that there is “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” and everyone else is being misled by the devil. Some fundagelicals say that you have to “born again” or go to hell, and everyone who disagrees is being misled by the devil. JWs say that Jesus actually wasn´t God, and everyone who disagrees has been misled by the devil.
            They all say completely different things about the Bible, but the exact same thing about each other – everyone else just “cherry picks” the Bible or is misled by the Devil or both. Since christians have largely stopped killing each other over these issues, this has become a very entertaining spectacle from the outside ;-).

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            You could read the Bible and decide for yourself. Start in the Gospel of John.

          • Andy_Schueler

            I did. Except for the OT prophets because they were so terribly boring, whiny and repetitive.
            Interesting that Christians like the one gospel that is so radically different from the other three so much. In Mark, Jesus was still described like a modern miracle healer (the story says that his alleged superpowers didn´t work if people didn´t believe that he has this powers, just like with modern “miracle” healers – Mark 6). Then the gospels of Mark + Matthew add some extra miracles and exaggerate the ones that they copied from Mark. And finally you get John where someone decided to almost completely rewrite the story.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Actually, my favorite Gospel is Luke.

            People mostly gathered around Jesus because they wanted Him to do miracles, but they didn’t believe. Miracles don’t save people, the Gospel does.

            Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

            3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures

          • Andy_Schueler

            Miracles don’t save people, the Gospel does.

            Prove it. And if you intend to answer this with a Bible verse, prove that this Bible verse is true.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I know the Father. If you want to, you will have to repent and put your trust in Jesus.

          • Andy_Schueler

            So to believe what you believe, I simply have to believe what you believe. That is a meaningless tautology.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            No. To believe what I believe, you need to repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus. Then you will have a Biblical world view.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Repentance is easy, every non-sociopath does it all the time. So how do you “put your trust” in someone you´ve not only never met, but who is for all you know non-existent?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            repentance is not easy and must come simultaneously with faith.

            When you fly in a plane, do you meet every pilot that flies the plane? No? You don’t know the pilot, but you put your trust in that person to fly the plane.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Now you are contradicting yourself again.
            I said:
            “So to believe what you believe, I simply have to believe what you believe.”
            You replied:
            “To believe what I believe, you need to repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus.”
            I replied:
            “Repentance is easy, every non-sociopath does it all the time. ”
            And then you say:
            “repentance is not easy and must come simultaneously with faith.”
            => So I was right all along, you do say that to believe what you believe, I simply have to believe what you believe.

            When you fly in a plane, do you meet every pilot that flies the plane? No? You don’t know the pilot, but you put your trust in that person to fly the plane.

            I know that there are pilots and I know how planes work, at least on an abstract level. I have never met any Gods though – so this analogy is false.
            Again, how do you “put your trust” in someone you´ve not only never met, but who is for all you know non-existent?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes. You have to have faith. But it must be a repentant faith.

          • Andy_Schueler

            Again, repentance is easy and all non-sociopaths do it all the time. Faith cannot be chosen however, so your beliefs are incoherent on this level as well.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            what is your definition of repentance?

          • Andy_Schueler

            re·pent
            verb ri-ˈpent
            : to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes. That is pretty close to Biblical repentance which is “to change one’s mind” that results in a change of actions. But it is of the heart.

            Many people are sorry for what they did because they got caught, not because they have had a change of heart and turned from their sin and turned towards God.

          • Andy_Schueler

            “Many people are sorry for what they did because they got caught”
            - That would not be “repentance” as it is defined in the dictionary, because “repentance” implies that you see what you did as wrong per se, not wrong because you “got caught”. Christians try to steal and redefine the word “repentance” all the time – but the definition is clear. If you think repentance doesn´t count without “faith” in your God, then you have to invent a new word.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes. Repentance without faith in Christ doesn’t “count.” You still end up in hell. But faith in Christ without repentance is a false faith as well, and you still end up in hell.

            So please, repent of your sins and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

          • Andy_Schueler

            “Yes. Repentance without faith in Christ doesn’t “count.” ”
            - So repentance doesn´t count. Again, you don´t get to redefine words, make up a new one if you don´t like the actual meaning of repentance.

            “You still end up in hell.”
            - yeah, yeah… got it and couldn´t care less.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I am sorry that is the case.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            And to answer your other question, I’m using “repentant faith” as the Biblical. Repentance for your sins and faith in Jesus. It matters what you repent of and who you put your faith in.

          • Cake

            Thanks for proving my point.
            Weak God.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Naw. So that we might see His holiness and glory.

          • Cake

            Weak and Vain.

          • Cake

            If the biblical truth sounds so meaningless and insipid what does that say about the rest of the bible?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Someday, I pray you will repent and believe in Jesus so that you will not see it that way.

            1 Corinthians 1:18 – For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

          • Cake

            Please stop praying for my rape.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I get this comment a lot. On the day of judgment, we will all have revelation of the truth and will be without excuse.

            Those who hate God will still hate Him, but they know they will be without excuse on judgment day and that their own punishment is just.

            But God made a way. Repent and trust in Jesus Christ.

          • Cake

            You are disgusting, STOP.

      • Joseph O Polanco

        It’s just rhetoric to defend an indefensible mendacity: http://bit.ly/17fVMYm

        • baal

          You are so deeep. I don’t know if I can take you this deeep.

    • baal

      Didn’t you post this on FA just yesterday Dean? It’s considered fucking rude if not out and out trolling to make cut and paste comments. if you have canned talking points, the place for them is as posts on your own blog and not as pollution on someone else’s.

      • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

        Yes, I have posted this as a starting point for discussion on about three articles. I then engage with those who respond. It is the basic message of Judgement and Salvation. Thank you for reading it twice.

    • Ophis

      I’ve been meaning to get involved in the comments on the other patheos blogs more instead of hanging around in Hallquist’s comments constantly. I can’t believe I’ve finally been tempted to comment here just so I can do some troll-feeding. But fuck it, everyone else seems to be getting involved, I’ll jump on the bandwagon.

      I was going to write a really long comment here, but I realised that all I really wanted to say was that most of what you said in your comment seems kind of insane to me, deanforGod. I know it’ll sound kind of sarcastic and hostile but that’s genuinely just how the whole thing seems to someone outside of Christianity.

      This, for example: “He sent His Son, Jesus, fully God and fully man to live a perfect and sinless life and to die on the cross as payment for our sins. On the third day he was resurrected and defeated death and sin.” Does none of that seem remotely odd to you? Does all that seem like a perfectly normal and reasonable thing to happen? The “fully God and fully man” part alone is so weird that it took the church four centuries to work out what the heck was going on with that. And here you are just chucking it all into a comment on a video about John McCain, in amongst the stuff about Fox News and Palin and Presidential nominee gridlock, as if it was all totally unsurprising and not in need of several books worth of explanation and supporting evidence.

      • Mary

        The problem is that when you are in it, it seems to make perfect sense. Christians are not trained to think. I sure wasn’t. The only thing that matters to them is really the fear of hell-fire if they question too deeply. Unfortunately that always makes them approach everyone in a “if you aren’t for me then you are against me” way. It is like the saying “You can’t reason someone out of a belief that they were never reasoned into.”

        • Ophis

          The weird thing is I used to believe this stuff (quite a while ago now). But I at least tried to back up my crazy beliefs. I don’t get this idea of just laying out a bunch of doctrines and asking people to please believe it. I can accept Christians not following me to atheism, but it would at least be nice to make them appreciate that a disembodied timeless intelligence taking human form, coming to Earth and getting himself killed, would be a surprising thing to happen.

          The shorter way to express my current attitude to Christianity is “wtf?!”

      • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

        Yes, I understand that this seems foreign to you. To understand, you must repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ. There is no other way to understand.

        • Ophis

          So I’m supposed to just will myself into believing a set of ideas that seem crazy to me, and once I’ve done that, it’ll seem less crazy. So what do I do when Mormons start knocking at my door, tell me a whole bunch of different crazy beliefs, and say that it’ll seem less crazy after I become a Mormon? If a Muslim told you to trust in Allah in order to understand Islam, would you try it?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            You know inherently right from wrong, and so repenting from your sins is necessary. I’d suggest you read the Bible cover to cover and then you can decide for yourself.

          • Cake

            I do know right from wrong and it tells me to not trust salesmen that tell me I need to believe in something intangible first so they can give me something else.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yes, you know right from wrong, because God wrote that on your heart, so that you would know you are sinning.

            Did you know that the greatest commandment is that you shall love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength.

            The second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

          • Cake

            Yeah, that must be why my heart is telling me you’re full of shit.

          • baal

            I got to Ezekiel and stopped. It’s rife with insanity but also has some of the sexiest content in the bible. I knew then that the book and what arose from it was, at best, fit for riding a raptor while high on acid and little else.

          • islandbrewer

            Don’t drop acid and ride raptors!

            - FAHRR (Fathers Against Hallucinogenic Raptor Rides).

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            That’s unfortunate that you could not appreciate the majesty of God’s Word.

          • Gehennah

            I have read the entire Bible and find the book to be a fairy tale.

            It has numerous things in it that demonstrably did not happen (Garden of Eden, Noah’s Flood, and the Exodus to name a few). It had numerous contradictions, which just shows me that it isn’t inspired by a perfect being because a perfect being would not get so many things wrong in the book that is supposed to be evidence for its own existence.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            The Bible will make sense when you come to know the Author. It is filled with history of an ancient people, but it also tells you how to get everlasting life.

            You seemed to have missed that part. But now worries, I will share it with you.

            1 Corinthians 15:1-4: Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
            3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

          • Gehennah

            I get what the Bible says and what it claims. Many of those claims are demonstrably wrong (such as claiming a world wide flood, claiming the exodus happened, claiming Adam and Eve).

            And I was a very devout Christian much of my life. I believed much of if not the same stuff you believe today. But I was wrong.

            Quoting the Bible in itself without other supporting evidence isn’t going to help your argument and it isn’t the least bit convincing.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            You said you were a devout Christian much of your life. Can you describe what that means? Many people’s definitions are different.

          • Gehennah

            I followed the teachings of Christ to the best of my ability. I strongly believed in him. I even thought I “felt” his touch in my spirit.

            But I can get the exact same feeling of the touch of Jesus (and no, not in that way) by talking to any invisible friend. I found this out through a psychology experiment. It’s basically the placebo effect.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I’m curious. If I asked you during that time, are you saved? How would you have answered?

          • Gehennah

            It would have been an undeniable yes.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            How did you know?

          • Gehennah

            Because the Bible told me so, and the Bible was my source of truth. And I felt the holy spirit.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            It’s quite possible that you had a false conversion. I’m going to give you a link, there are two recordings, probably about 45 minutes each. You can choose to listen or not, I’m just making it available.

            http://www.wayofthemaster.com/audiolessons.shtml

            Also, I would ask that you consider a teaching of Jesus on the sermon on the mount. Someone asked Him if “only a few are being saved?” Jesus answered with “make every effort, because many try and will not be able to.

            Luke 13:23-24: 23 Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”He said to them, 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

          • baal

            deanforGod, do you find this line of questioning ethical?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I’m questioning Gehennah about an experience that I think possibly could have resulted in a false profession of faith. The Bible speaks about many who will claim to have faith, but for one reason or another it’s not a real faith. I was just asking Gehennah questions to learn more about his Christian experience. Unfortunately, much of Christianity in the U.S. is pretty artificial which results in “false converts.” No where in the Bible does Jesus teach that “just say a little prayer in your heart and accept me and off to heaven you go.” I was just curious.

            In the parable of the Sower, Jesus talks about two groups of “believers” who end up not being real believers.

            It’s in Luke 8:11-15: 11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

          • baal

            Oh, it looked to me like you were trying to push a recovered person back into the bad thinking of their past. I normally consider that unethical behavior.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Although I’m sure you realize that my goal in life is to profess Christ to everyone in hopes that you will repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ.

          • baal

            Yes, I find that morally repugnant too.

            What I want for you is a happy a fulfulling life that doesn’t include pushing people to think how you think. Do you really mean to say that you want everyone you meet to push you to follow their ideals? That’s only fair if you think it’s ethical to consistenly push your Christ beliefs as everyone should get the same rights – to push their own beliefs.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I think you and I differ here. Most people I speak with share their ideals and views and I happily listen. I also use it as an opportunity to point out how their beliefs and ideals are different than what the Bible says.

            What would be morally repugnant to me is if you knew there was a hell, where there is eternal torment forever and ever, and chose not to warn me about it.

          • baal

            I strongly suspect that nearly everyone here, but know with certainty that the ex-christians, have already heard about it.

          • baal

            It’s insane none sense that even fails as metaphor and poetry.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I would suggest you try again, but this time I’ll give you a helpful hint.

            The Bible will make sense when you come to know the Author

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Really? I’ll suddenly start discarding the evidence of all the rocks and seas and trees and everything if I just believe? I’ll learn to close my eyes to evidence and just take on faith all the fucked-up, nonsensical things in the book?

            I thought you were trying to sell your religion. That’s not a good pitch.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            oh. Hi Feminerd.
            Not quite. When you know the Author of the Bible, you will see the evidence with your eyes opened. But remember, in order to know the Author, you must repent of your sins and put your trust in Christ.

            Romans 1:19-20 – since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Sooo … is that a yes or a no on following the scientific evidence wherever it leads?

            And you totally have your thing backwards. Evidence leads to conclusions, not the other way around. I don’t believe something and then look for evidence to back me up. That’s a horribly biased and unscientific way to do anything. I look at the evidence and see where it goes, and if it leads me places I didn’t expect, well I guess reality didn’t behave how I thought it would. I learned something. So when you say first believe, then you’ll see the evidence? That’s just … there almost aren’t words for how wrong that is.

            Never, ever reason start from your conclusion!

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I have to admit I’ve gone around and around on this topic, but it usually bears little fruit, so I stay away and stick to the message. I will give you one example though.

            There are clams/seashells on Mount Everest. I explain that through the flood. You would say that plates shifted over time (I think 65 million years) resulting in there being shells on the surface of Mount Everest. You choose to believe that explanation but can’t prove it.

            In the same way I would explain the Grand Canyon being cut by the receding waters of the flood, but again, you would say “over millions of years.”

            However, the most important thing is to remember that you have sinned before a holy and righteous God, and it is His standard you will be judged by. Have you ever told a lie? Stolen? Looked with Lust (Adultery).

          • Gehennah

            We have observed plate tectonics and geologic lift (my mind blanked on that term, if I used the wrong on for lift please correct me). We know this is how mountains form.

            And the flood has numerous other problems before it can even be taken seriously. How did the fish survive? Why do we not have an extreme genetic bottleneck (as well as all other animals, we do have a bottleneck but its not that extreme), why are there footprints from the same levels that you claim are laid down by the flood? How did the coral survive? How did the carnivores survive? How did the sloths get to the Ark and back home again? How did plants survive? Where did the water come from and go post flood? Why do the ice cores not support the flood myth?

            And of course with the Grand Canyon, there are some really smooth yet tight curves that would not have been formed by the runoff from a flood. Especially considering that this is further up the Canyon where the water should have been carrying much more energy.

            And again, even if your god existed, why is he worthy of worship? I’m not going to worship someone that endorses slavery no matter how powerful it is.

          • islandbrewer

            There are clams/seashells on Mount Everest. I explain that through the flood. You would say that plates shifted over time (I think 65 million years) resulting in there being shells on the surface of Mount Everest. You choose to believe that explanation but can’t prove it.

            In the same way I would explain the Grand Canyon being cut by the receding waters of the flood, but again, you would say “over millions of years.”

            See, when you put it like that, you make it sound like two people, looking at the same thing, and coming up with two different opinion that seem equally plausible based on point of view.

            Nothing could be further from the truth.

            Thousand of geologists since the time of Charles Lyell have been studying geology to a depth we non-geologists don’t come close to. The field of geology has done amazing things. They can monitor volcanic activity, and predict eruptions life-saving minutes to hours before they occur. Metamorphic petrologists successfully predict where oil and gas deposits will be. Geologists protect our groundwater reservoirs, and warn us when our buildings are in danger of natural disasters.

            To glibly dismiss the conclusions of thousand and thousands of scholarly hours of research, and say that your opinion on the matter is of equal weight, is absurdly arrogant to those of us who have careers in or attached to science.

            It’s not unlike walking up to an oncologist and telling them that the tumor they’re examining at is probably, in your amateur opinion, just a giant pimple, and all you need to do is squeeze it.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Not quite. Geologists are still “guessing” what happened 65 million years ago.

            Did you know that taking the Lord’s name in vain is a very serious sin.

            By the way, my 11 year old son, Kyle, says it’s very very bad, so don’t do it.

          • Gehennah

            They aren’t exactly guessing. While they do not have all of the details, they have enough of them to come up with the most logical conclusions. Now, as new evidence emerges, those conclusions may change somewhat, but those conclusions generally go towards a certain direction.

            People once thought the earth was flat (which was wrong). People then thought the earth was round (which is still wrong). But now we know that the earth is a spheroid. If you notice while both flat and round are wrong, flat is wrong by a much higher degree than round.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            And you can observe the earth and it’s shape, but you can’t observe what happened 65 million years ago.

            Did you know that if you place love of anything above God, it is a sin? For we shall love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul mind and strength.

          • Gehennah

            Directly, no. But there is a ton of evidence left behind.

            We know that super volcanoes have erupted in the past, we can see the evidence left behind for them.
            We know large meteors have hit the planet before, we can observe the evidence left behind.
            We know we evolved, we can see the evidence left behind for it in the fossil record and in our DNA (ERVs for example).

            We don’t directly have to be there and observe it physically, we just need the evidence for it, as a forensics team doesn’t have to be at a scene at the time of a murder to help figure out what happened.

          • Cake

            “And you can observe the earth and it’s shape, but you can’t observe what happened 65 million years ago.”

            Fucking Wrong.

          • islandbrewer

            Not quite. Geologists are still “guessing” what happened 65 million years ago.

            There’s still much to be figured out, yes, but it’s a far cry from guessing about what happened from reading some folklore.

            Did I take your Lord’s name in vain in the previous post, I didn’t notice. I could now, if it would make you feel vindicated in your admonishment.

            You’ve still failed to give me any reason to fear the wrath of God any more than the wrath of Thor.

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            About 70 million years, actually. And we have lots and lots of evidence for it. See, we can date some of the minerals in the rocks that have half-lives. They all correlate to a certain fairly narrow span of time, so we know how old they are. We can study how plate tectonics works, and figure out how old the Himalayas are based on projections of plate tectonics combined with radiological dating. We can actually see the plates with modern technology. The reason the Himalayas have fossil shells (which are far, far older than 3,000 years old or whatever) is that the seabed was once underwater, but when the Indo-Australian plate hit the Asiatic plate the seabed was forced upwards, and then more upwards, and then more upwards, until it turned into mountains. The shells on the bottom of the seabed, of course, didn’t go anywhere, so you get seashell fossils on the Himalayas (they date, as I said, to 70 million years old or older, further confirming the theory that the Himalayas are ~70 million years old). I’d call that pretty freaking good evidence, actually.

            We can do the same with the Grand Canyon, by the way. The only reason we think it’s millions of years old is because the evidence points in that direction. No one started with the premise that it was millions of years old, and in fact it shocked people. Unlike you, they were willing to change their minds when contradictory evidence reared its head, though.

            What evidence do you have? A fairy tale. A fairy tale that doesn’t even make any sense- where did all the animal poop go? What did the meat-eaters eat? What did the herbivores eat, for that matter? Why did Noah save mosquitos but not unicorns? What hosted all the various diseases, and how/why didn’t those hosts die? How did the plants survive with no sunlight? What did the maggots that feed off dead flesh eat? How did the saltwater fish survive an inundation of fresh water? Do you really think we are all descendants of Noah’s grandchildren’s incest?

            In other words, why do you believe your fairy tale in the face of evidence that you are wrong and logical questions that show the story is impossible? Besides, any god that would drown the whole world is evil. I mean, seriously, more evil even than Tlaloc, who requires children’s tears to bring the rain down so requires torturing children to death. At least that’s only killing a few people, not every single human being, animal, and plant that existed. The most important thing to remember is YHVH doesn’t exist, but if ze did, ze is evil and has no right to judge anyone.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            It doesn’t matter what you believe, Just if what you believe is true. How will you fair on judgment day?

            1 Corinthians 6:9-11 – Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God

          • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ Feminerd

            Um, what one believes is entirely the point, because we’re arguing about truth. In my world, truth is what aligns best with reality. The Noah’s Ark story doesn’t align with reality at all, thus it’s false. The Jesus story doesn’t align with reality at all, thus it’s false. I’m pretty sure what I believe is true (no supernatural things), that’s why I believe it. If I thought I was wrong, I’d change my mind. Obviously.

            Yet, you appear to believe that whole Noah story is true, despite giant piles of evidence that it literally cannot be true. Why? If you want me to believe that your holy book is accurate, and I can show that the stories in it are just that- fairy tales, written during a time when people were really ignorant- why should I believe any of it?

            Just so you know, a true discussion does not involve completely ignoring when your argument gets smashed and moving on like it never happened. It requires actually engaging what the other person said, not reading/typing from a prepared script. It certainly doesn’t include quotations from a source your opponent doesn’t view as credible. Answer my questions, please.

          • Cake

            Sin is just some made up bullshit so you can sell the magic spot cleaner needed to get rid of it.

            If you don’t believe in sin, you don’t need the cure.

          • baal

            so when i read what you wrote, it looks like, “once you have the conclusion, the fact that prove the conclusion lead right to it!”

            That’s not right or how we normally think.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Not quite. I’m saying if you know God, your eyes will be opened.

          • baal

            And I tell you, you’ll never know the shear terror that awaits those who do not worship Cthulhu before he awakes unless you go and dance naked in a swamp.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            There are lots of false gods. In fact, the Hindu’s believe in about 330 million.

            But there is only one true God, who judges us by the standard of perfection. If you’ve sinned just once you’ve fallen short of His standard and are under judgment. Have you ever told a lie? Stolen? Looked with Lust (adultery).

            By the way, quoting false gods from low tech games made by STEAM as your example of god, probably just points to your focus on material things….If that’s true, that’s also a sin for you shall:

            Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.

          • Gehennah

            He’s actually doing the exact same thing as you do. Finding a god and then using that god of evidence of its existence.

            And the Biblical god isn’t perfect. While not all of the Bible is bad, there are many things which your god supposedly was fine with. Slavery for instance.

            I, and most of the modern world find slavery morally reprehensible. I’d even wager that you find it that way too. Yet your god not only didn’t say “thou shalt not own another human being,” he endorsed it and made rules by which to rule slaves by, even allowing you to beat them.

          • islandbrewer

            Actually, Cthulhu was invented by H.P. Lovecraft in 1928, in The Call of Cthulhu. You’re about 80 years off, there.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            fair enough. I only looked at the first two google results.

            Have you ever looked with lust? Jesus said, whoever looks upon a person and lusts after them has already committed adultery in their heart. In the same way anger or hatred is considered murder of the heart.

            So God measures our thought life and and intentions as well.

          • islandbrewer

            Have you ever looked with lust?

            Yup!

            Jesus said, whoever looks upon a person and lusts after them has already committed adultery in their heart.

            Pffft! Nonsense. Besides, “adultery” isn’t wrong, per se, in my mind.

            In the same way anger or hatred is considered murder of the heart.

            Equal nonsense. Hyperbole to an absurd degree. I get angry all the time. It’s never made me want to murder anyone. Never even willed anyone to be dead out of anger.

            So God measures our thought life and and intentions as well.

            Except that I don’t believe that your God exists, so why exactly should I care?

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Because we are all accountable to God when we die. And we are accountable to His standards, not ours.

          • Gehennah

            But not only you, but your god has failed to demonstrate its existence.

            I could say that you will be held accountable to Thor when you die whether you want to or not. This doesn’t mean Thor is real.

            And to quote someone who’s name I forgot.

            Your god say he would destroy all evil, I still see evil in this world. Thor said he would rid the world of ice giants, and I see no ice giants. Therefore Thor is real and your god isn’t, all hail Thor.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Evil will be destroyed on the day of judgment.

            Revelation 20:11-15- 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

          • Gehennah

            And I can quote Harry Potter to you, or I can quote Yoda to you.

            Without actual evidence to support your claim that your god is real, there is no rational reason to believe in such a god.

            I know those verses greatly, after I became an Atheist they haunted me for months. Even though I rationally didn’t believe in heaven or hell, the thought of it still tormented me for a long time.

            Luckily I had a good friend to help me out with getting over that. When I was a theist, she never pushed me to become an atheist even when I was preaching to her. But she was there for me when I needed her.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            I really hope you consider listening to those messages I provided a link to. And I pray that you have not completely shut out God.

            It’s a terrible thing on judgment day to know the truth and yet have rejected it.

            Today is the day of salvation. Please, Repent and put your trust in Christ.

          • Gehennah

            When I have sufficient evidence to believe in a god, then I can believe in a god.
            Then, and only then, will I determine whether or not that god is worthy of worship. And even if your god did exist, he’s highly immoral and child-like and unworthy of worship by not only myself, but by anyone. Holding a gun up to someone’s head and telling you to “love me or else” is not moral.

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Fair enough. Just know that you have been given the truth, and that you have been sufficiently warned.

            If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our dead bodies. And if they perish, let them perish with our arms wrapped about their knees, imploring them to stay. If Hell must be filled, let it be filled in the teeth of our exertions, and let not one go unwarned and unprayed for.”

            ― Charles H. Spurgeon

          • Gehennah

            If it is the truth, then your god has done a poor job at leaving evidence behind that it is indeed the truth.

            I’m completely open to the evidence for a god, but without evidence I cannot believe in one.

          • Cake

            Fuck you are really pig ignorant.

            You’re not here to talk to anyone in any meaningful fashion. You’re just here to spout worthless bible quotes and sell a god based on fear and hate.

            Do you really think that people haven’t heard your fucking idiotic message of salvation? Are you that egotistical and purposefully stupid to think that, “Hey I’m the guy who’s going to save an atheist by spewing tired bible verses at them! Maybe if I babble just a little bit more and pray a little bit harder this time it will work.”

          • Andy_Schueler

            Just know that you have been given the truth, and that you have been sufficiently warned.

            Here is what I think of your “truth” and your “warning”:
            ” Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. –Matthew 12:30-32″
            => Fuck the holy spirit.
            And just to cover all bases and make sure I´m also eternally damned if the muslims are right: The prophet Muhammad (piss be upon him) is a pedophile asshole.

            There, I just damned myself to eternal torture. Does it bother me? No. I´m as worried about your “hell” as I am worried about the muslim hell – and I am as worried about the muslim hell as I am worried about getting a spanking from Santa on Christmas.
            And just because you are so incredibly annoying, I will try to get at least ten people today to say “fuck the holy spirit” today – should be easy, there are plenty of non-christians where I live. And I´ll do it just for you. You´re welcome.

          • islandbrewer

            See, that only works if I believe in a god. If I told you that you’d better conform the the standards set forth by the King of the Leprechauns or face eternal pain and torture by wearing the magic dancing shoes, because you don’t believe in leprechauns (I’m assuming, correct me if I’m wrong) you’d have no motivation to care whether you conformed to my obviously contrived standards.

            I’m in the same position with respect to your god. You keep warning me about how horrible his punishment is unless I believe in him. You still haven’t given me any reason to believe in him, however.

            Your attempts to refute science aren’t going to work, as I trust the scientific method and the peer review process more than your bible. I have tangible proof that the scientific method works. I have none for the bible. And if you, like our friend Joseph O Polanco, were to demand evidence that science works, it would be like demanding evidence that the sky is blue, or corporation are greedy, or some such nonsense.

            If you want me to believe, the evidence you present has to meet the kind of evidentiary standards that I expect in science.

          • baal

            STEAM? I don’t think so. HP Lovecraft wrote before the start of time (last Thursday, prove me wrong if you can) ~ turn of the last century.

            Sin is just another name for South Park’s bus driver’s shoot the bunny argument. Let’s put it this way. Your basic humanity offends me. I count those offenses in Boojums. By doing what I tell you to do or via me granting you an indulgence (my grace) I’ll let you not have to pay off some Boojums. That’s might nice of me isn’t it? (hint: it’s a form of extortion)

          • http://NeedGod.com/ deanforGod

            Yep. I only looked at the first two google responses.

            When we die, we are not all accountable to South Park’s spoof on religion. We are accountable to God. And His standard is perfection.

            For Jesus said – Be perfect, therefore, as my Father in heaven in perfect.

            The Bible also says, for whoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumble at one point is guilty of all.

          • Andy_Schueler

            There are lots of false gods. In fact, the Hindu’s believe in about 330 million.

            No no no. Those Gods are absolutely real and I can prove it to you. You just have to choose to believe that they are real, then you´ll believe that they are real.

            Are you impressed? No? How about I´ll just repeat ad nauseam that you just have to choose to believe they are real, then you´ll believe that they are real?

  • TeaPartyLegitimateRapists

    Fck christians, fck muslims, fck jews, fck hindus, fck bhuddists and all delusional wackjob fundie ass holes everywhere.

    • baal

      What did you do with all the “u”‘s?

      • Dr Joseph

        >What did you do with all the “u”‘s?

        He stammers a lot. So he needs to keep a big supply of them on hand.

  • http://rationaloutlook.wordpress.com/ rationaloutlook

    I don’t get why people are so happy with this. I think we should encourage conversational intolerance towards all religion, not tolerance! What his little act does is make some people more tolerant to the phrase “Allahu Akbar.” And that’s bad! Instead we should be intolerant to all forms like “Thank God” too.

  • ufo42

    Oh! Oh! McCain said something not totally batshit crazy! He must be a secret muslim! Ban him from Faux News! :)


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