Christianity Becomes an African Religion, Islam Overtakes Christianity, and Other Upcoming Changes

Christianity Becomes an African Religion, Islam Overtakes Christianity, and Other Upcoming Changes May 11, 2015

 Christianity Islam changesThe Pew Research Center recently published a thorough and intriguing new study, “The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050.”

Dwight Longenecker, a Catholic blogger here at Patheos, gloated about the conclusions in “The Facts: Atheism is Dying Out.”

Atheist “intellectuals” speak disparagingly about religion and predict that mankind is on the cusp of a new age in which religion will simply disappear as science, technology and reason are in the ascendant.

The facts indicate exactly the opposite. It is religion which continues to grow around the world while the statistics indicate that agnosticism and atheism are dying out.

In journalism, that’s called “burying the lede.” No, that’s not really the story. Let’s explore in more detail how religion will change by 2050.

Christianity has been the 800-pound gorilla on the world stage, but Christianity is losing its edge. In 35 years, Christianity will be only negligibly larger than Islam, with 31.4% of world population vs. 29.7% for Islam. Islam is projected to be the number one religion by 2070.

Changes in Christianity

Christianity will increasingly become an African religion. Africa is already the largest Christian continent, with slightly more Christians than North America. But by 2050, North America will have less than half of Africa’s Christian population (1.12 billion vs. 516 million).

North and South America will increase their Christian populations slightly—about the same as population growth for South America and substantially less than population growth for North America.

Christians in Europe will drop from 75% to 60%.

This global movement of Christianity can be seen visually on a map showing the changes in Christianity’s center of gravity over time. In 33 CE, the center of gravity began in Palestine. Over the centuries, it moved through Asia Minor and Greece, then gradually westward as Christianity spread through Western Europe. By 1700, it was in northeast Italy, by 1800 in northwest Italy, and by 1900 (with the rise in the Christian population of the Americas) in Spain. By 1970, it had moved dramatically south and was in northwest Africa. Today, it’s roughly centered on Timbuktu, Mali, and it’s expected to continue moving southeast into Africa.

The ancient city of Timbuktu is often used to suggest an impossibly remote place. Western Christians may find this metaphor relevant as world Christianity becomes increasingly foreign.

Changes in Islam

The Muslim fraction of Europe will almost double by 2050 to 8.7%. Islam in North America will continue to be tiny, with 2% of the population.

In Africa, however, Islam will more than double to 960 million. The big winner will be Asia, with 1.74 billion Muslims in 2050. The top four Muslim states will be India, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Nigeria.

Changes in Unaffiliated

The number of people unaffiliated with any religion (which includes atheists) will increase, but as a percentage of the global population, this group will decrease, from 16% to 13%.  This is the statistic that Longenecker was gleeful about.

But there’s more to the story. For most religious groups, the difference between those switching in (adopting the religion) roughly matches those switching out. Christianity, however, is the big loser here, with a net loss of 66 million by 2050. The Unaffiliated will see a net increase of about the same amount. Christianity may not be that sticky a meme after all.

Changes in the United States

Consider projected changes in Christianity vs. Unaffiliated in the United States.

Graphic copyright 2015, Pew Research Center. Permission to reprint graphic provided by Pew Research Center.

Unlike changes in worldwide statistics, Christianity in the U.S. is the big loser (78% to 66%) and Unaffiliated the big winner (16% to 26%). That is, the Unaffiliated category appears to be winning the only race that one can be proud of winning, the intellectual debate in the marketplace of ideas.

While Christianity can win a demographic race as long as Christians make more babies, movement by intellectual migration does not favor Christianity.

Could upcoming changes in America predict how the whole world will go?

Notice where these worldwide demographic changes are coming from: more babies. Islam will soon surpass Christianity not because Islam explains reality better or because Allah is the one true god, but for no more profound reason than that Muslims are making more babies. (Which is also largely how Christianity became #1.)

The fertility rate is now 3.1 children per woman for Muslims and 2.7 for Christians. One option for Christians nervous about these changes is to have more babies, which is what the Quiverfull Movement is all about (critiqued here).

But this baby arms race won’t last much longer. Worldwide fertility was 5.0 in 1950, it’s 2.5 now, and it will reach replacement level of 2.1 (the fertility rate of a stable world population) by 2050 (source, p. 25).

Demographic changes in religion are now driven by fertility, but as that factor wanes, what will change? Religion will no longer win simply by cranking out a surplus of indoctrinated babies and will have to compete on an intellectual footing.

To see how this may play out, consider world population charts with a sharp upward bend beginning several centuries ago as clean water technology, sewers, vaccines, antibiotics, and modern medicine reduced infant mortality. Modernity slowly brought the birth rate down, but this happened unevenly through the world. The population in Europe and the United States is now shrinking, but it is still growing dramatically in other parts of the world, most notably in central Africa. (Religion thrives where social conditions are poor, which is one reason why Christianity and Islam are spreading in central Africa and Arab countries.)

The drop in fertility rates means that the developing world will follow the West. Might the same secularization predicted for the United States happen there as well? The developing world has adopted Western technologies, they are following Western drops in fertility, and perhaps the United States of 2050—where “no religion” will be a viable and growing option to Christianity—will also be their future.

Whether atheism (or simply None of the Above) will continue to make inroads in Christianity as it’s projected to do in America for the next few decades is unclear. What seems almost certain, though, is that the time of fertility-driven growth will be over.

(Instead of Christianity becoming merely irrelevant, I propose a soft landing for it here.)

Limitations to predicting the future

Let me pause and note that the Pew Research study is careful to list caveats. The conclusions may be wrong if they’re based on flawed assumptions. For example, Pew doesn’t speculate on what social conditions might drive atheism, and Christianity’s future in China is hard to predict.

Father Longenecker (the “Atheism is Dying Out” author) adds his own speculations of events that would change the picture. Some make sense—a global war, natural disaster, or Christian revival in the West. And some are ridiculous—God uses magic to convert Muslims to Christianity or makes birth control pills stop working.

Let me add a few on the atheist side of the ledger. Suppose the Catholic Church figured out that preventing a conception isn’t the same thing as killing anything and lightened up on their antagonism against contraception. Or even allowed abortion. Christian denominations have been fine with abortion in decades past. If the rapid rise of the anti-abortion movement in the United States is possible, the reverse is conceivable as well.

Suppose Islam gets its Enlightenment. Christians can (and sometimes do) find support for regressive policies in the Bible that are out of touch with modern society. If Christians can dismiss nutty stuff in their holy book, Muslims could, too.

Suppose secularism catches on. Maybe there’s a snowball effect waiting to happen, and once enough Unaffiliateds or atheists go public with their unbelief, others will follow their lead—first the doubters who attend church because they feel they must and then other believers who unexpectedly have a new option to consider.

What do we actually want to drive the world’s beliefs?

What’s glaringly missing from Longenecker’s analysis is “Christianity will win out because it’s, y’know, true.” He could argue that true things have staying power and Christianity simply explains the world better.

Nope—he throws in the towel on the intellectual debate and doesn’t even acknowledging it. He’s simply rooting that Christians have more babies. (I’m beginning the see the value in conservative Christians’ recent redefinition of marriage to be all about making babies.)

Longenecker is like a General Mills executive fretting that Cheerios will lose its popularity in the breakfast cereal aisle. His claims that Catholicism explains life’s big questions are as well grounded as that Cheerios does. Without an intellectual grounding, Catholicism falls in with Cheerios as lifestyle features.

Once this baby-driven phase of religious expansion ends in the next few decades so that the effects of intellectual migration are clearer, it will be interesting to see who wins. The early indication doesn’t support religion.

“I don’t understand how you don’t believe in God.”
Well, you know how you don’t believe in Zeus?
Like that.
— Ricky Gervais

Image credit: Jialiang Gao, flickr, CC

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • MNb

    Yeah, a few more decades and you will have to rename your blog. I suggest Half Moon Examined.

    • Kodie

      I think that sounds like a job for a proctologist. How about Islam Schmislam.

    • RichardSRussell

      Actually, I can do a bit to explain that moon business. I serve as dungeon master for a D&D campaign, and one of my jobs is to set up the world in which the game occurs. (Thus the standard rubric among gamers, “DMIG” — dungeon master is god — literally describes my role in the game world). Since our party of adventurers occasionally has to travel at night, I need to know the phases of the moon, so I can tell them what kind of hazards they’ll face, whether they’ll need artificial light, how long they can nap before the moon rises to light their way, etc.

      Well, you know who else spends a lot of time traveling by night? Desert dwellers! Islam experienced its own “inflationary universe” era among the nomads of the Sahara, to whom the phases of the moon were (and still are to this day) very, very important. Which is why Islam (and Judaism before it) uses a lunar calendar. Christianity, as I’m sure we’re all well aware, inherited a lot of its traditions (as well as its calendar) from the solar deities.

  • Peter_J88

    It’s funny cause the graph looks like a guillotine…

  • Siep Kooijman

    In short, to paraphrase the Architect: while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalating probability of enlightenment.

  • Cognissive Disco Dance

    I love how Dwight puts “intellectuals” in air quotes and then proceeds to believe in stupid fairy tales.

  • Snowflake

    Well, against my better judgement I went to Mr. Longenecker’s blog. I was actually interested in reading the comments. I may have missed something, but I did not see a place to comment. Oh well.

    I did skim the article. Well not really. However, I did check out his conclusions, which essentially said, you never know what is going to happen. I actually don’t disagree with that. Life can always throw an unexpected variable. I was fascinated by some possible unexpected outcomes he suggested.

    Perhaps there will be mass conversions, like in Mexico in the 16th century when there was an outpouring of the holy spirit and many converted. Funny, that is not how I remember how things happened in 16th century Mexico. Not sure how much choice those conversions were.

    Another possibility is thatthere will be restrictions on Muslim people to immigrate to western nations or they will be deported. Where would you deport an American Muslim who’s family has been here 75 years? Or an American who converted to Islam. Where to send them?

    Or hey how about this? War or natural disasters that can wipe out entire populations and people may return to religion.

    Nice guy. True Christian(TM).

    • I warned you! You go to that blog, and you can’t unsee what you’ll see.

      Yes, Father L’s hypotheses are pretty odd. I agree that revivals are possible, but God uses magic to convert Muslims? Birth control won’t work anymore?

      And I don’t see how restrictions against migration will change the global numbers of Muslims or Christians.

      • AliKat

        There is one very dark possibility-in some countries Muslims kill each other a lot. If they end up confined to those countries then they might slow down their growth rate.

    • Pofarmer

      Longenecker closed down comments because people, including yours truly, were calling him out on his asinine articles.

      • Interesting! I hadn’t noticed. Was that recently?

        I wonder if he handles backtalk any better in person.

        • Pofarmer

          Over a year ago. He always moderated comments heavily.

      • Snowflake

        Well, thanks for taking one for the team. I’m still learning how.
        I wish these people enjoyed having a brain. It is a terrible thing to waste, I hear.

        BTW, I love your name. I’m a farmer wannabe.

  • Pofarmer

    The rise of Global Islam is one of those things that truly, truly concerns me.

    • The solution is obvious: pray … and make lots of babies.

      Onward, Christian soldiers!

      • Snowflake

        No offense, but I hate that song.

        • None taken. I hate it, too.

        • wtfwjtd

          You mean you’re not inspired by a hymn that advocates militaristic, in-your-face-Christianity as a virtue? I’m shocked.

        • adam

          ”’

        • Snowflake

          I attend my local UU Society, I really enjoy the community there. However, the services follow a traditional Protestant service structure although the words are changed. The hymns are familiar, but again, the words are changed. Most people there are atheists. I usually work with the little kids so I don’t have to attend service. One day, I was teaching a class and the melody to Onward Christian Soldiers was heard. Instant panic attack. I thought I was the only one, but I found other members felt the same way.

        • Greg G.

          If you hate it now, just think of the disco version of it. A rap version would probably be an improvement.

        • Snowflake

          I think I will now have nightmares tonight. Onward Christian Soldiers in Disco? Thank goodness my kitten just came by for a hug.

      • MNb

        You guys made me curious, so I listened for a few bars. It’s the same genre as the Horst Wessel Song. I’m not going to link to it. The lyrics are not too different either.

    • Susana Gonzalez

      Global ISLAM (fadical) will take over the world. You do well to be concerned. The rise of ISLAM is related to people abandoning the faith in GOD . This is NOT NEW. It happened already many times in the BIBLE. (old testament)
      + atheist+ apostates = raise of ISLAM

      • adam

        ” The rise of ISLAM is related to people abandoning the faith in GOD .”

        Islam worships the same ‘god’ as you do, the ‘god’ of Abraham…

        You’re an IDIOT…

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Bob cannot answer a question, that needs someone to answer for him? Is you name BOB? or you are eager to answer (and insult) because you have no arguments to debate as decent person?

        • Kodie

          It’s obvious you’re just illiterate.

        • adam

          Says the HYPOCRITE who refuses to answer questions….

        • Ceirwyn

          Nope Islam doesn’t worship the same god as we worship. Nearly everything Islam stands for blasphemy to the Father. It is as un-godly as satanism.

        • adam

          So YOU dont worship the “God of Abraham”

          Christianity does…

        • Ceirwyn

          Try reading a Koran, dear. Between the endless commands to murder and rape and genocide, there’s not a shred of the love of the God of Abraham in there; Islam is a satanic cult that’s very moral structure is in direct opposition to everything Christian and Judaism stand for. That is proof enough, in spite of the lies Muslims spout that it isn’t the same god.

        • I’d be curious to see an objective, quantitative comparison of the two books. They’re both pretty violent. You delude yourself if you imagine the Koran to be full of violence but the Bible not.

        • Ceirwyn

          Violence isn’t the problem, it’s how that violence is directed (ie. everywhere). It’s why the middle east is a mess; violence has it’s place, but Islam doesn’t have any restraint or compassion to balance it (because it isn’t based on anything God actually said). Islam is fundamentally selfish: everything is about self satisfaction and earning your way to heaven. Christianity is all about sacrifice and humility: you can’t earn your way to heaven or even be a good person as far as God is concerned, and you shouldn’t live your life for solely for you. That’s a pretty big difference.

        • Violence isn’t the problem

          Uh … Yahweh condoning slavery and demanding genocide is kind of a problem. His followers then think that it’s OK.

          It’s why the middle east is a mess

          Is this a blanket condemnation of Abrahamic religions?

          Islam doesn’t have any restraint or compassion to balance it

          One of the 5 pillars of Islam is giving to the needy. Listening to the conservative Christian leaders in the US, you’d think that helping the needy was ridiculous.

          Islam is fundamentally selfish: everything is about self satisfaction and earning your way to heaven.

          Read the parable of the sheep and the goats and then come back and tell me how you get to heaven.

          Christianity is all about sacrifice and humility

          That’s one viewpoint. What fraction of Christians worldwide would agree?

          That’s a pretty big difference.

          Christianity is a very big tent—45,000 denominations and counting. It’s spawning new denominations faster than bacteria in a Petri dish. You can find Muslim approaches to life that are both kinder and harsher than Christian denominations.

        • adam

          “Try reading a Koran, dear”

          I have, DEAR, it is based on the OT, same God of Abraham

        • adam

          “Between the endless commands to murder”

          Read your bible

        • Ceirwyn

          Ignoring the obvious fact this is verse is about a government run war, not individual killing sprees…and the fact, that any kill commands are rare vs islam where it’s all about killing all the time.

          I see you’ve reverted to the old testament, which is about the law. Since the law has passed by virtue of Christianity being under the new convenient (the new testament), let’s look at what Christ said:

          Matthew 26:52
          “Then Jesus said to him, ‘Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. ‘”

          Now try this:
          https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/murder.aspx

          There are plenty of instances where God commanded governments to wage war and kill an opponent, but none where individual folks run around slaughtering people. In fact, doing so would have earned them the death penalty, even in the old testament, as killing was to be done through governmental authority only.

        • Greg G.

          not individual killing sprees

          When the Israelites were in deep Shittum, a plague was ended when Phinehas snuck into a tent and ran a spear through an Israelite man and his Midianite girlfriend. (Numbers 25) God apparently approved of cold-blooded murder.

        • adam

          “Ignoring the obvious fact this is verse is about a government run war,
          not individual killing sprees…and the fact, that any kill commands are
          rare vs islam where it’s all about killing all the time.”

          So yes, IGNORE the Crusades
          IGNORE the Inquisitions
          IGNORE the witch burnings
          IGNORE the gay killings

          Cherry pick your own bible and history.

        • adam

          ” let’s look at what Christ said:”

          Yes, let’s look at what Jesus said about the LAW….

          Hint: you do understand that Jesus was Jewish dont you?

          .
          .
          .
          The earth is still here and has not passed.

          REAL Jesus followers understand this.

          The rest prefer Paul’s ‘god’ who Paul admits he never met Jesus.

        • adam

          “There
          are plenty of instances where God commanded governments to wage war and kill an
          opponent, but none where individual folks run around slaughtering people. ”

          Have you never read the Bible?

          Kill Witches
          You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

          Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

          Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you
          must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the
          livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

          But of course the most STUPID

          Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

          The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I
          am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh
          day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

        • adam

          ” let’s look at what Christ said:”

          Yes, let’s LOOK

        • MNb

          And then rape and genocide are OK? The victims will rejoice.

        • Myna A.

          Since the law has passed by virtue of Christianity being under the new [covenant] (the new testament), let’s look at what Christ said:

          Seems like Jesus says a lot of things:

          Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

          Looks like you and Jesus have some talking to do.

        • Myna A.

          God commanded governments to wage war…as killing was to be done through governmental authority only.

          Translation: theocratic authority. I’m sure if they were able, the sad shades of popes, bishops, cardinals and inquisitors would stand up in their dusty tombs and applaud your sentiments.

          But helas…the inglorious reign of the Christian theocracy is dead. It has no more power in Munchkinland. Now, while walking the yellow brick road, we’ll have to use our own brains to outwit the lions, the tigers and bears.

        • adam

          “and rape”

          Read your bible

        • Ceirwyn

          Try 2nd grade reading comprehension; that’s wergild, not encouragement to rape.

          Now try:
          Abu Said al-Khudri said: “The apostle of Allah sent a military
          expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met
          their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them
          captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant
          to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their
          husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the
          Quranic verse, “And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save
          those (captives) whom your right hands possess”. That is to say, they
          are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period.” [The Quran
          verse is 4:24]

          Islam encourages rape. Period.

        • adam

          “Islam encourages rape. Period.”

          Yes, of course, they get it from the OT God of Abraham just like YOU do…

          “(Judges 21:10-24 NLT)

          So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead
          they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.”

          Yep the God of Abraham LOVES rape:

          More from Judge:

          hen they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be
          understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guiltyof breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage
          to them.’” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their townsand lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and
          families, and they returned to their own homes.”

        • adam

          “Islam encourages rape. Period.”

          Yes, of course, they get it from the OT God of Abraham just like YOU do…

          (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)

          They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of
          Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives,
          both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

          Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plagueto strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women
          who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.”

          Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

        • adam

          “Islam encourages rape. Period.”

          Yes, of course, they get it from the OT God of Abraham just like YOU do…

          (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

          As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children,
          livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

          What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

        • The Bible encourages rape. Period.

          15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” [Moses] asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

        • adam

          “and genocide,”

          Read your bible

        • adam

          ” That is proof enough, in spite of the lies Muslims spout that it isn’t the same god.”

          No, Muslims know it is the same god, and so do you.

        • Ceirwyn
        • Greg G.

          The Trinitarian god is not the god of the Old Testament. Jews, Muslims, and Unitarian Christians worship the false god of the Old Testament. Trinitarians worship the false god of interpolated New Testament verses.

        • Greg G.

          What a coincidence that the god of the Koran and the god of the Old Testament issued the same commands!

        • Ceirwyn
        • Greg G.

          Then Trinitarian Christians don’t worship the same god as Unitarian Christians, while Muslims and Unitarian Christians do worship the same god. Even Isaac Newton rejected Trinitarianism. Some verses that appear to support Trinitarianism have evidence of tampering.

        • With that logic, different Christian denominations don’t worship the same god.

        • MNb

          They don’t.
          The technical expression is they don’t have the same god image (‘cuz Kant). I like that better because it suggests that god is created in the image of man.

        • Greg G.
        • Myna A.

          Most excellent.

          Now, if individuals like Ceirwyn have the courage to actually watch it without going into some kind of incoherent fit…

        • Greg G.

          I am afraid that Ceirwyn might not read fast enough for the subtitles.

        • Very clever. Is this a Dutch project?

        • MNb

          Yes. It was setup to mock Dutch islamophoby.
          Did you miss it a few months ago? At least to colleagues at Patheos Atheist mentioned it.

        • I heard the story, but I hadn’t watched the video. Cool.

        • Greg G.

          Yes, I recall reading about it late last year. I think I saw it first on Google News. Here is a short story and the video on another Patheos channel
          ;

          http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2015/12/the-holy-quran-experiment-will-make-you-laugh-and-think/

        • Myna A.

          Try reading a Koran, dear

          Right back at ya. A basic Google search on what is actually written in the Qu’ran will show the statements you just made are pretty high on the bullshit scale and I don’t even have a stake in Islam. Here’s just a simple link to give some evidence to your hysteria: https://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-10.htm

          From the OT to the Qu’ran, all the Abrahamic religions have aggression at their core and the doctrines reflect this. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are Abrahamic religions. Do you understand what that means?

        • adam

          “Try reading a Koran, dear.”

          I have dear, and I understand where if comes from – the God of Abraham’s OT writings.

          You should try reading a Bible, dear….

      • I question your equation. Atheists aren’t Muslims. You need to go back to elementary school for more math. And reason.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          HOW difficult is for you is to interpret a simple children math…

          + atheist+ apostates = raise of ISLAM

          Where exactly I said atheists are muslims? heeeloooooo lol

          And you are the one interpreting the biblical slavery….a blind leading other blinds will fall in to the hole..

        • atheist+ apostates = raise of ISLAM

          Where exactly I said atheists are muslims? heeeloooooo lol

          Where you said that atheists not becoming Muslims leads to the “raise of ISLAM.”

          And nice reference to your inability to discuss the slavery issue rationally. No, you can’t.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Due to your lack of understanding , I will explain in another approach :

          ISLAM growing (by immigration) or conversion is the result of people leaving the faith.

          More atheist means more RADICAL ISLAM.

          I did not mean atheists will become muslims.

          Why? because muslims believe they have a divine mandate, that apostates and idolaters and atheists deserve to be fought and killed and kidnapped. So they turn to this kind of islamic interpretation.

          And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)” (Surah2:191-193)

          http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

          This is the radical islam doctrine explained to dummies. We christians might tell you how wrong you are in your thinking, but muslims will kill you BOB. Unless you are willing to die for your convictions you might keep this blog and end as charlie hebdo..Or maybe you will not dare to offend muslims..

          http://www.wsj.com/articles/third-atheist-blogger-hacked-to-death-in-bangladesh-1431439393

          ” Third Atheist Blogger Hacked to Death in Bangladesh
          Fears grow about increasing radicalization in Muslim-majority country”

          Is reality…

        • adam

          …..

        • MNb

          “ISLAM growing (by immigration) or conversion is the result of people leaving the faith.”
          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          Yeah, because the Dutch began to leave the christian faith from say 1960 on more and more muslims came to The Netherlands, who because of secularization became more and more radical.
          Wow, you’re a fine example of how faith and belief destroy cognitive skills.

          “muslims will kill you”
          So perhaps I have to rethink my relationships. I married a muslima in 1991, divorced in 2004 and since then have had a relationship (we’re not married) with another muslima, who regularly visits her mosque.
          Or perhaps you’re logic is ridiculous.

        • MR

          So people should allow fear to dictate what they think?

        • adam

          How else do you give an IMAGINARY character real political power?

        • adam

          “Why? because muslims believe they have a divine mandate, that apostates
          and idolaters and atheists deserve to be fought and killed”

          Gee, anybody know where they got such an idea?
          .
          .
          .
          .

          Kill Followers of Other Religions.

          1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do
          not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

          2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your
          towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man
          or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

          Death for Blasphemy
          One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an
          Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses,
          “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT

          Hmmm, the ‘god’ of Abraham IS THE INSPIRATION for all this EVIL….

        • You’re not saying that Islam is rising because of transfers in from Christianity, are you? It’s increasing because of babies.

          More atheist means more RADICAL ISLAM.

          Meaningless. You could explain this. Or not—I don’t much care.

          We christians might tell you how wrong you are in your thinking, but muslims will kill you BOB.

          Yes, some will. And … ?

  • MNb

    Some great unintentional christian humour:

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2015/05/is-god-also-our-mother/

    Believing is complicated.

    • wtfwjtd

      There’s some serious mental gymnastics going on there! How entertaining.

      • MNb

        Mental gymnastics about ….. nothing.

      • RichardSRussell

        In math, if you divide by zero, you can “prove” anything you want to.

        • MNb

          Wrong.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projectively_extended_real_line

          You divide by zero, but still can’t prove that 1 + 1 = 3.
          Didn’t you make this mistake before?

        • RichardSRussell

          You use the number “1” in your question. Twice, in fact. But suppose I show you that 1 really equals 2 to begin with. Then I’ve “proved” the proposition you cite.

          And here we go …

          Proof that 2 = 1:
          Let a and b be equal non-zero quantities
          a = b
          Multiply both sides by a
          a^2 = ab
          Subtract b^2 from both sides
          a^2 – b^2 = ab – b^2
          Factor
          (a – b)(a + b) = b(a – b)
          Divide by (a – b)
          a + b = b
          And since a = b,
          b + b = b
          2b = b
          Divide by b (which is non-zero)
          2 = 1

          QED

        • MNb

          Do you really think that you can fool an experienced teacher math with a joke that’s as old as the beard of Methusalem? Anyhow, you’re proof is irrelevant for my comment, because it doesn’t belong to projective geometry. It’s as silly as trying to use Pythagoras’ Theorem in non Euclidean space.

        • RichardSRussell

          I’m not trying to fool anybody. Quite the contrary, I’m trying to provide a concrete example of my original statement that dividing by zero obliterates the value of everything that comes thereafter. Dividing by zero is an understandable example from math that I was using as an analogy for using the supernatural as an “explanation” of the way the world works.

          The purpose of analogies is to present the reader or listener with a simpler example of a similar thing, to make it easier to understand, which is why I avoided things like non-Euclidian space.

        • MNb

          Your example still doesn’t apply to projective geometry.

          “The purpose of analogies is to present the reader or listener with a simpler example of a similar thing, to make it easier to understand,”
          Yeah – and by neglecting the relevant differences you provide incorrect information. It’s a tactic apologists are very fond of. I don’t know about you, but I rather avoid their mistakes.

          Plus there was nothing in wtfwjtd’s comment

          “There’s some serious mental gymnastics going on there! How entertaining.”

          that required any simplification. Neither does Olson’s article I linked to – the title says it all. So if simplification were your intention it was an empty gesture.

  • NWaff

    1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This same is antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son.
    Islam has rewritten the life of Jesus and denies his deity..

    • Greg G.

      Also the Mandaeans. Also the Jews. Don’t forgot the Hindus and the Buddhists. Then there are those who claim to be Christian and say the Bible is the word of God but don’t even read it so they are not Christians in deed. So most people are antichrists according to 1 John.

    • adam

      So what?
      Christianity rewrote the life of Jesus to support their political power and agenda.

      so anyone who denies your trio of ‘gods’ huh?

    • Dueling holy books? Get the popcorn!

      • Greg G.

        I like my popcorn with salt that hasn’t lost its flavor.

    • RichardSRussell

      OTOH, Christians have rewritten the life of Jesus and proclaim his deity.

  • Mick

    The preacher writes: Atheist “intellectuals” speak disparagingly about religion and predict that mankind is on the cusp of a new age in which religion will simply disappear as science, technology and reason are in the ascendant.

    * That happened in the 1860s after Darwin explained the theory of evolution.

    * It happened again in the 1920s when people thought the war to end all wars had brought everlasting peace to the world

    * And again in the 1960s when the younger generation claimed that “God is Dead”

    On each occasion the Christians have always been able to rally the mugs in the pews and quickly regain all lost ground.

    It is my guess that they have the power, the finances, and the numbers, to overcome any and all threats for thousands of years into the future. I am one atheist who thinks that religion will never die – and it pisses me off!

    • Your concern is well placed, but remember that Christianity is only the most successful religion. Thousands have come and gone.

      But while Christianity may die, I agree that supernatural beliefs do have a pretty strong hold on our minds. Even if we improved social conditions enough (like removing mosquito breeding grounds) so that we’re rid of Christianity, who knows what’s next. And it doesn’t even have to be religion. Homeopathy and similar beliefs show how woo is eager to colonize and area of uncertainty by providing certainty (bullshit certainty, to be sure, but certainty of a sort nonetheless).

      • Gunnar Thalweg

        Sin, sickness, suffering, evil and death. We have infinite desires and finite resources. There is an inherent unfairness in how resources and even how natural gifts are distributed. There is just an unfairness to life, and to death, that materialism offers little comfort for. The non-religious methods of dealing with this are well-known — stoicism and epicureanism. You can alter stoicism to include more and more sophisticated psychological techniques, and can build more and more warm and mature communities to help people cope with the difficulties of life. But, still, death is just extinction of your consciousness. There’s really nothing to offer suffer up to. There’s no setting things right in the end. Pure materialism just can’t offer a whole lot. That’s probably why most atheists spend a lot of time holding onto Christianity, to focus on why it’s wrong, rather than try to fully cope with the cold, dark universe.

        • I’ve never noticed any atheists holding onto Christianity.

          Christianity has some non-supernatural things–community in the church, and so on–that are worth keeping. But if you’re thinking of some sort of fear of the unknown, Christianity’s empty claims do nothing for most atheists.

        • RichardSRussell

          I’ve never noticed any atheists holding onto Christianity.

          Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean by “holding on to”. Check out the Clergy Project, which is an atheist outreach to currently employed, practicing Christian ministers and priests who’ve become atheists for intellectual reasons but can’t figure out, as a mundane practical matter, how to break free of an occupation which they’ve dedicated a large portion of their lives to, where they really do provide a service to other people, which they’re probably good at and get psychic rewards from, and which may be the only thing they’re qualified to earn a livelihood from.

        • Greg G.

          Life is not fair. You do the best you can and it enjoy it as much as you can.

          Death is fair. It is one to a customer. The transition might be unpleasant but non-existence is quite serene.

        • adam

          “Pure materialism just can’t offer a whole lot.”

          And yet it appears as if that is all we have.

          “There’s really nothing to offer suffer up to.”

          Why should suffering be ‘offered up’ at all, all that would seem to do is make people callous about suffering,

          Or worse, like Mother Teresa, makes them an advocate of suffering.

          The biggest problem with Christianity IMHO is this celebration of suffering, RATHER than dealing with the root causes of suffering.

          “Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man.” T Paine

        • Gunnar Thalweg

          I was explaining why religion is appealing to people.

        • Kodie

          You did a bad job at it.

        • adam

          I understand.

          And I understand that all the time and money invested in ‘religion’, especially one that worships suffering, could have probably ended most of the needless suffering in our world, rather than celebrating it.

          I understand why Santa Claus is appealing to people as well. It doesnt mean that Santa is REAL, though, and that those who believe in Santa are not experiencing a mass delusion.

        • MNb

          One of the benefits of becoming an older atheist is accepting this inherent injustice. Like you wrote psychology helps: I just focus on what I realistically can accomplish. It’s useless for me at my age to try to become an NBA player. Sticking to this dream is only depressing.
          So pure materialism may not offer that much – it still offers a reliable way to happiness. I doubt if Mother Theresa had such a happy life.

        • Kodie

          You really think that’s why most atheists are focusing on Christianity? Because we are jealous?

        • Gunnar Thalweg

          No.

        • RichardSRussell

          We have infinite desires and finite resources.

          This is formulated in Econ 101 as the Fundamental Law of Economics — “Demand is infinite; supply is finite” — from which the entire remainder of the discipline springs.

    • RichardSRussell

      As Richard Dawkins pointed out, memeplexs are like genomes — constantly evolving as the hardier memes and genes survive to reproduce, while the less well adapted ones die out and disappear. The Christianity of today bears little resemblance to that of 100 CE, because it has evolved to be able to answer questions that people kept posing to it. Far from being “eternal truth”, it has proved to be highly successful at balancing tradition with adaptation, whereas Shakerism (to name one particularly notable example) went down a blind alley from which it never emerged. How did it accomplish this? The same way it works in biology: diversity! There are separate niches for every conceivable combination of variations, and people shuffle around until they find a comfortable one where they can light, linger, and proliferate.

      Hey, it’s working for us “nones” as well. Have you heard the phrases “spiritual, but not religious” or “I think of myself as a humanist, not an atheist, because I want to stand for something”?

      Evolution is pretty damn impressive, but make no mistake: With memes as with genes, it’s totally pragmatic, not teleological. It goes with whatever works, having no predetermined end point in its non-existent mind.

    • Seathanaich

      Nobody had the social power to leave religion back then. You’d lose your family, your spouse, your job, and in most of the world your life back then. People can leave religion today with reduced levels of negative consequence. That makes all the difference. That’s why atheism is now growing everywhere, and will continue to grow.

  • Scott_In_OH

    Off-topic of this post, but relevant to the blog, I hope:

    I just read through the Psalm 22 thread where lots of conversation has been happening.

    Technical question: How to people handle threads with hundreds of comments? My computer gets so bogged down, I usually give up.

    Substantive question: Two separate commenters (Jerry a few months ago and the YouTube guy a few weeks ago) claimed that Jewish scribes (aka “the Jews”) had altered the texts of the Torah because they (the scribes) realized the Christians were right that the original texts showed Jesus was the Messiah. Both commenters were telling pretty much the same story, something to do with the Masoretes, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, and Hebrew vowels. Where are they getting this from? Is it a widespread argument? Sounds like someone is trying to lay the groundwork for some serious anti-Semitism to me.

    • I hear through Patheos that a large fraction of their readers use mobile devices. I also use a computer to wade through comments, and as difficult as that is, I can’t imagine doing it on a mobile device.

      One issue is that Patheos pages are pretty compute-intensive with all the ads. I delete Patheos tabs on my browser when I’m done with them to take pity on the CPU.

      Greg G. or other commenters might have more to say about Jewish scholars’ hanky panky. I don’t take that as anti-Semitism, just warring worldviews, but perhaps I’m missing something.

      • Greg G.

        I often use a mobile device but I go to the desktop version. I wish I could bookmark the URL to make my browser use the desktop but it often defaults back.

        That Share button that hovers over the page on my mobile device no matter which page version I use is annoying. When the keyboard takes two thirds of the page and that button covers the right edge, there’s not much room to see what I am typing. Then it covers the Post button. When I move the page so the boost button is clear, that Share button will move itself back over it just as I try to post.

    • Greg G.

      1. Disqus needs a dump button. Each comment has at least a timer and a reply monitor which need to be updated. When you have hit the “Load More comments” a few times, the browser window can’t keep up with its normal routines. I usually use the recent comments section and scroll up. If you are using a desktop computer, you can hover over the share at the bottom of comment and right click on the link icon to copy the url, open a new browser window and paste the URL. Then you can reply easier. I wish Disqus allowed one to drop read comments when loading the next batch.

      2. Those writers of the New Testament favored the Septuagint, as did three centuries of church fathers. But Jerome thought the Hebrew Old Testament should be more authentic. I think the Masoretic text we have comes from the 10th century. Perhaps those who complain are thinking all the writings should translate verbatim and no changes should ever creep in over 1000 years, especially if it is God’s word so any discrepancy must have been deliberate by whoever had possession of the text during that time. But if the NT is mostly based on the Septuagint which I think comes from Christian scribes, any valid criticism they have is misdirected.

    • MNb

      “How to people handle …”
      In the right column you’ll find the 15 latest comments. I use them. Also I receive replies in my mailbox. Sometimes, when a thread is particularly interesting, I start scrolling from above until I meet a subthread that’s a bit old. Sure I will miss several comments, but alas peanut butter, as we Dutch say.

  • Susana Gonzalez

    https://discipleallnations.wordpress.com/2013/08/25/the-top-20-countries-where-christianity-is-growing-the-fastest/

    -China will become the largest christian country in the World, By 2030, China’s total Christian population, including Catholics, would exceed 247 million.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10776023/China-on-course-to-become-worlds-most-Christian-nation-within-15-years.html

    –South Korean is the country who sens more missionaries to the world. Seems 20% of their population is already Evangelic Christian. Is becoming a powerful country. AS CHINa.

    -USA will become islamic, atheist, and then it will collapse.USA is now suffering TORNADOs, DROUGHS, NATURAL DISASTERS and is still unrepented. Wait to see your country destroyed and then your will look and will turn to GOD.

    • To look at a moment in time when the upward movement of a population is high and then extrapolating that forward is a pretty elementary mistake. Yes, China’s Christian population might grow substantially, but let’s be careful. Friends don’t let friends extrapolate irresponsibly.

      Tell me more about America’s future. It’s predominantly Christian and will still be about 65% Christian by 2050. When will this atheist utopia happen?

      And I’m surprised about the natural disasters. Is this just in your dreams, or are natural disasters substantially more now than they have been in the past? Show your sources–reliable ones, please.

      • Kodie

        I’m not a scientist, but the panic about natural disasters someone else can correct or confirm- global warming is having some effect on natural disasters… “superstorms” … don’t quote me on this, I heard about it on tv during the dinner hour and maybe on facebook. China had a devastating earthquake not too long ago, so I don’t know if that will be the last one if they’re all kneeling to Jesus now. I kind of doubt it. Christianity appeals to them because of how they treat their workers.

        • Christianity thrives in poor conditions. Perhaps those conditions will improve and give the Chinese worker less need to go to religion.

          This Argument from Natural Disasters seems both surprising and not. It’s not surprising because if you immerse yourself in Fox News (or whatever), you can be convinced that the world is going to hell in a jet-propelled handbasket. But it’s surprising because finding the stats showing that our times are that big a deal (though, yes, with a slight uptick possible from climate change). But certainly not Armageddon-esque.

        • MNb

          Actually I do fear that the world is going to hell, but in a steady and slow pace. That makes it much harder to reverse the processes.

          http://www.amersfoortaanzee.nl/96cdc7f38bcd5ccd4ee7fdec07b041e54a3ff0fb.jpg

          (Amersfoort is about 70 km from the Northsea coast – in between is the most populated part of the country)

          The good news is that the predictions of the alarmists haven’t come true say last 50 years – mainly because politicians took their warnings seriously. Dutch experts have the knowledge to prevent that picture coming true.
          Of course I agree that christian lovers of the Apocalypse are only a millstone around humanity’s neck.

    • MNb

      I rather rely on scientific research – done by qualified demographists – than on wishful thinkers like you, who don’t care about facts.

    • Greg G.

      -China will become the largest christian country in the World, By 2030,
      China’s total Christian population, including Catholics, would exceed
      247 million.

      Could China be called a “christian country” if nearly 85% of the country is not Christian?

  • Susana Gonzalez

    USA will climb in atheism and Islam FAITH even more, with hundreds of thousands of muslims aliens arriving to USA, eventually will show to Atheists not to mock religions (as happened with Hebdo Charlie).

    -We all know USA economy is collapsing.

    Natural disasters hitting USA

    -Drought in California,
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/upshot/mapping-the-spread-of-drought-across-the-us.html?_r=0&abt=0002&abg=1

    -snow storms as never seen before.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30118783

    Tornadoes..Hurricanes….civil unrest…Is the beginning of judgement against USA and the soon to be atheist European countries. Did I forget terrorism? When a nation abandons to GOD through legal murder (abortions), destruction of marriage (gay agenda, sexual immorality) and unbelief, (atheism, mocking God) calamities will HIT your country. We Christians,know what is going to happen. Almost 2000 years ago it was foretold the abandoning of faith in the last times. It doesn’t come as surprise that people are leaving the Christian Faith. In fact, is a fulfillment of bible prophecy,

    1 Timothy 4:1
    But the Spirit speaks expressly, that in latter times some shall apostatise from the faith, giving their mind to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons

    And at the same time a revival of the Christian Faith in places as China:
    Matthew 24
    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vak-n_E43CU

    People needs FAITH. Christian Faith will never never go away.

    • Yes, atheism will climb. Why is that a bad thing?

      No, Islam is not projected to be anything more than a tiny religion in America in 2050.

      Yes, I realize that Charlie Hebdo was attacked. What is your point? That religious extremists are bad?

      I can’t imagine what you’re trying to say with news of natural disasters. Drought in California? Look up “Dust Bowl,” my friend. Snow storms? Look up “Galveston of 1900.”

      You don’t like abortions; how nice. Make your case. And it looks like you’re a homophobe, too? I’m married; tell me why same-sex marriage imposes on my life at all.

      Bible prophecy? Show me a prophecy in the Bible, either in the past or yet to come. I’ve never seen one.

      You like faith. Why? What value is faith?

      • Susana Gonzalez

        “Yes, atheism will climb. Why is that a bad thing?” Is you to decide in a few years. AS close as 5 years , USA your country will collapse with your artificial economy based on debt. Oh this already started is not? Government offices were shutdown in 2013

        http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal-government-shutdown-cost-2-billion-in-lost-productivity-omb-report-says/2013/11/07/e883c3ec-47f2-11e3-bf0c-cebf37c6f484_story.html

        You still do not get that some natural disaster are linked to what USA does and stop doing?
        http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread534602/pg1

        God knows how to bring a wicked nation to its kneels, when this nation advocates for murdering of unborn children and moral decay in society. And when its population advocates for rejecting God in the whole nation. Stop dreaming of USA in 2050 as atheist nation. It will never happen. IT will be a revival of Christian faith when USA people realizes the evil they brought to themselves rejecting GOD. I can assure “BOB” when you lose your job, and food and essentials climbs to exorbitant prizes, when your family has nothing to eat, when you see terrorism everywhere and natural disasters striking America and having your home destroyed, either you will wish to be death or you will TURN TO GOD. This is the moment you will find the true meaning of FAITH.
        By now LEARN what FAITH does to people.
        https://youtu.be/vak-n_E43CU
        Prophecies? this article is a fulfillment. People losing their Christian faith is a fulfillment of bible prophecy.

        • Kodie

          It’s faithless Christian fundamentalist conservatives gleefully hastening the process in order to fulfill the “prophesy” lest it go unfulfilled. You’re an idiot.

        • “I’d kill you with my mind, but it doesn’t feel right. I’d feel like I’d be putting down some special needs member of the cast of ‘Footloose.’”

          Video @ 2:59:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhko3m7D6UA

        • Prophecies? this article is a fulfillment. People losing their Christian faith is a fulfillment of bible prophecy.

          And that’s as good as your all-powerful creator of the universe can do? I’m not impressed. You need to upgrade.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          You are the kind of person that in spite of witnessing all fulfillment of prophecies, you will not believe.
          When God calls someone, not even the most reticent atheist can resist.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsbj7EN1Uzs

        • Oh, please. Hugh Ross? I see little value in his blather.

          Yes, I suppose you’re right that if God exists, you’d find his call irresistible. I wonder why he hasn’t contacted me? I guess he doesn’t care.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “I wonder why he hasn’t contacted me? I guess he doesn’t care.”

          is my imagination or..do you just feel abandoned by God?
          I like this testimony. AS many atheists, he used to slander the Bible without knowing about it.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFfInlpUTZE&index=10&list=PL-0zpu2toenabuNUBeBxQmmjr8JGuXVEs

        • That’s completely your imagination. I don’t feel abandoned by God. How about you–do you feel abandoned by Brahma or Quetzalcoatl?

          Show me that God exists and things will be different.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “Show me that God exists and things will be different.”

          I rather ask you… Show me that God doesnot exist.! Not even Richard Dawkins can. BTW he calls himself agnostic. He cannot prove God does not exist. Look, I will never invest my time and effort denying Father Christmas because he doesnot exists! But you put so much effort in denying someone you do not believe. Is illogical for a “programmer” like you.

          Maybe because you have to convince yourself?

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9102740/Richard-Dawkins-I-cant-be-sure-God-does-not-exist.html

          What exactly do you know about God? We do not see electricity, but it exist. WE do not see gravity but it exist. We do not see GOD today, but it was not like this in the past 4000 years. God manifested in different ways to humans, 2000 years ago he came to earth and many had the opportunity to walk with him. His name is Lord Jesus. And do not tell me JESUS did exist, because not even a SERIOUS scholar would dare to deny that Jesus existed.

          FYI…many atheists are coming to Christ recently.

          https://jamesbishopblog.wordpress.com/2015/04/18/former-atheist-mike-bird-becomes-christian-after-studying-jesus/

          I like to read their testimony because seems all atheist think the same way. This former atheist was told not to think in what is transcendent to human beings.

          ““I grew up in a secular home in suburban Australia, where religion was categorically rejected—it was seen as a crutch, and people of faith were derided as morally deviant hypocrites. …

          When I crossed from unbelief to belief, all the pieces suddenly began to fit together. I had always felt a strange unease about my disbelief. I had an acute suspicion that there might be something more, something transcendent, but I also knew that I was told not to think that.”

        • adam

          You do understand that not even Richard Dawkins can prove that Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns dont exist…

          Same with Ganesh, Shiva, Zeus and the TENS of THOUSANDS of other other ‘gods’//

          It is an argument only an IDIOT would make..

          Yes, god is manefested differently in everybody, BECAUSE everyones IMAGINATION is different.

        • The burden of proof is on your shoulders. When someone says, “Show me that Zeus doesn’t exist. Can’t do it, can you??” I’m sure you dismiss that argument as pathetic like I do.

          I don’t ask you for proof, just good evidence.

          If there were no impact on society by Christians, I wouldn’t bother with a false belief. But that isn’t the case, unfortunately.

          Turn on a light and then tell me if there’s evidence of electricity. Or stick a metal fork in a wall plug. Where’s the God equivalent?

          You say God provided evidence thousands of years ago but not today? OK, then I guess we have no good reason to believe today.

          Show me the evidence.

        • MNb

          “Show me that God doesnot exist.! Not even Richard Dawkins can.”
          But Herman Philipse can. Your god is an immaterial being. All means to interact with our material reality are also material. Hence your god can’t have such means available or he would cease to be immaterial. Plus you don’t have a reliable method to separate correct claims about the immaterial from the incorrect ones.
          God is an incoherent concept and that’s enough reason to reject it.

          “What exactly do you know about God? We do not see electricity, but it exist. WE do not see gravity but it exist.”
          False analogy. Electricity and gravity are not entities, but abstact concepts used to correctly describe a whole variety of observed facts. They are part of coherent and consistent theories.
          Your god fails in these respects as well.

          “not even a SERIOUS scholar would dare to deny that Jesus existed”
          I don’t deny that. I deny that he was divine. In exactly the same way I don’t deny that Santa Claus existed.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

          It doesn’t follow that he rides the sky with his rendeers or rides the roofs on his grey.

          “many atheists are coming to Christ recently”
          And many more christians begin to understand that Jesus was not christ.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          I always wonder why pp’ invest do much Time and energy to débunk someone they do no believe exist. So do you béliève in santa claus??

        • Does Santa Claus cause problems within society? Stand in the way of social improvements?

          Perhaps now you can see the difference between Santa belief and God belief.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          So you are basically Saying that both are not the same. Is Funny how you equate God au the same lvl as sauta clauss only to see, that you différentiate thèm! I just have to wait to caught you in contradictions!

        • Maybe if you’d stop trying to find errors in my statements you’d see the problem. You think we can’t see that you’re unable to respond to the issue?

          No, belief Santa Claus and God are not identical. Santa Claus believers don’t cause problems in society. God believers do.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “You think we can’t see that you’re unable to respond to the issue?” Is me who choose to respond or not your “issue” and there is a reason for.
          Now…seems for you, that “GOD believers” are the cause of all problems in society. For this topic. we will focus in those who belongs to the Christian faith, alhtough I will agree with you that muslims (allah believers) believers behaves terrible in these days. So you said.. that GOD believers behaves bad. And I agree. Because GOD is Holy and Perfect. We humans, are not. Because we behave bad we need GOD merci and HIS grace of forgiveness. Said that way, humans are the cause and root of evil. And that includes believers and no believers. Because I do not think atheists are perfect…do they?

        • No, “God believers” aren’t the cause of all problems in society. Religion is the cause of some of society’s problems.

          I’m not tarring all Christians, and there’s no reason for you to tar all Muslims. Yes, some Muslims do bad things, driven by their religion. Not all.

          I also agree that humans cause some bad in the world, but natural disaster is God’s doing. One serial killer is pretty bad, but an earthquake or tsunami can kill a quarter million people in minutes. Thanks, God.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          So … you blame GOD of natural disasters? how can you blame someone who you do not believe exists? Is illogical and irrational if I start blaming Tlaloc for all the natural disasters.. IF You do not believe in GOD, then GOD doesnot cause the natural disasters! btw..how TEXAS flood is doing?

        • God creates evil and brags about it:

          I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, Jehovah, do all these things (Isaiah 45:7).

          Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? (Lamentations 3:38)

          When disaster comes to a city, has not Jehovah caused it? (Amos 3:6)

          No, I don’t believe in God. I’m rubbing your nose in the consequences of your belief in God.

        • MNb

          And if you do believe in your god, then your god does cause the natural disasters, because he’s omnipotent and everything. How does it feel to worship a mass murderer?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Your Logic is irrational, and you are a programmer, ? You canot blame someone or take to the court to an inexistance being, try to do it…you Will end .. At hospital at the psiquiatry section.

        • MNb

          Susana, you wouldn’t be capable of distinguishing irrational logic from rational logic if your life were at stake, so this is a very silly comment of yours.

          BobS’ logic goes like this.

          Suppose for the sake of argument that there is a god. Like Susana does.
          We have observed natural disasters.
          Question to Susana: why does her loving god allow natural disasters?

          BobS’ answer is: there is no god to allow or not allow natural disasters.
          Susana’s answer is: ……………….

          BobS – Susana 1-0. The ball though is in her court, so perhaps she manages to score too. If she fails we have a fine example of

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

          Which has been rational logic about as long as your favourite Holy Book is old. Except that the latter is badly outdated and the Reductio ad Absurdum isn’t. I guess it’s because there was no god involved when the Greeks developed the latter. That tends to increase the quality of thinking.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          THERE A RE MANY BOBS HERE, ANSWERING FOR HIM…MAYBE HE NEEDS HELP…

        • MNb

          Quite a lame attempt at making a joke …..

        • Greg G.

          He was speaking hypothetically. If an omnipotent being exists, it could prevent all suffering of all sentient beings. It could perform billions of miracles per nanosecond for every being in existence just as easily as not doing any miracles. That is just the definition of omnipotent.

          That means that all suffering is unnecessary. Any reason you might think of for allowing suffering, an omnipotent being could think of another way to achieve the same result and do it the non-suffering way as easily as not doing it.

          So if there is an omnipotent being, it is OK with allowing suffering. That is either indifference or sadistic. It is not benevolence. Would you really want to spend an eternity with a being that is happy with others suffering?

        • adam

          Santa Clausians do NOT make war with the St. Nicolasians because Santa OR St Nic are jealous of competition.

          Otherwise they are BOTH childish mythology.

        • Heather

          This is funny. Just yesterday I was thinking about just how scary Santa really sounds. I was thinking about the song “Santa Claus Is Coming To Town”.

          “He’s sees you when you’re sleeping; he knows when you’re awake; he knows if you’ve been bad or good…”

          You better watch out, you better not cry, you better not shout, I’m telling you why…Santa Claus is coming…”

          Santa sounds kind of creepy to me now…

        • adam

          It is creepy, as are the whole ‘god’ tales

          magine that you live in a world where 90% of the
          people around you sincerely believe in something
          that appears to you to be downright whacky, if perhaps
          relatively pleasant on the surface in many respects.
          Say they believe in Santa Claus; beard, the big red
          suit, the flying reindeer, the sled loaded with a
          billion gifts, the North Pole Workshop, Mrs. Claus
          and the elves; all of it.

          But in this fantasy world, they’re not content merely
          to believe in Santa Claus, they want you to publicly
          agree all the time that you also believe in Santa,
          in their specific version of same, and they pressure
          everyone else in numerous ways to pretend that they’re
          not strange or childish for believing in this. They
          don’t just limit it at that even, they insist everyone
          kiss their ass about their Santa belief every damn
          day of their lives and if you don’t humor them at
          the drop of hat under any circumstances, you’re being
          disrespectful, you’re out of line. No matter how
          much you humor them, they always demand more.

          Imagine, seriously imagine for a moment now, that
          these people, the vast majority of the electorate,
          vote for politicians based in large part on what
          they think Santa wants, campaign speeches all end
          with “Be good or Santa won’t come to visit”.
          And most of these voters won’t even consider voting
          for someone who doesn’t believe in Santa Claus and
          his factory at the North Pole. Yet they routinely
          congratulate themselves as belonging to the most
          graciously tolerant and open minded people in all
          of history.

          Imagine that large sections of the country, the majority
          in fact, reject modern geography and want to teach
          that Santa lives at the North Pole in a giant Dickensian
          factory manned by elves as part of that curricula.
          They don’t just want to teach it at home or in Santa
          Mass every Sunday, they wanna teach it as geographical
          fact and they’re militant about it. They lobby the
          schoolboard and stack them with Santa-ists who want
          to ‘teach both sides of the geographic controversy’
          and let the kids decide if they wanna believe in
          Santa’s Workshop at the North Pole, or not. They
          want to ‘teach the evidence against naturalistic
          North Polism” and no amount of evidence, no
          sat photos, no onsite reports, no live North Pole
          Cams, will dissuade them from this effort.

          It gets even better.
          This is just a small piece, see the rest here: http://www.bornagainpagan.com/texts/004-text.html

        • Heather

          Welcome to America!!

          Love the link. Posting to FB as soon as I can…

        • Santa is a bit like Josh Duggar.

        • adam

          Ohh, that could leave a mark…

        • Heather

          Only he did a lot more than just “see them sleeping.”

          Bad joke, I know…but it keeps me from vomiting…

        • Kodie

          Children who believe in Santa Claus are too young to vote, you moron.

        • MNb

          Psssst …. my comparison was about the historicity of Jesus and Santa Claus. I never said they were the same in all respects. Their historicities are very similar.
          See that you’re fun? Your belief hasn’t exactly made you smart. You have a hard time grasping elementary things.

        • Kodie

          I always wonder why idiots like you think this isn’t about YOU. Do you exist? Do you exist and act in the world upon your fucking idiotic superstitions? Then what reason do you think an atheist shouldn’t have something to fucking say about that? We have to endure people like you existing in our world and fucking it up with your nonsense. I think you’d agree we should have something to say about it, since it is nonsense, but we can see you’ve come to your last resort and pretend we really believe in your stupid violent maniac god. We don’t. We believe you’re crazy enough to act on his behalf, and that can affect us.

        • MNb

          Because I enjoy it.
          What did you write again?

          “Show me that God does not exist.!”
          I did and now you neglect it.
          I always wonder why people make such a request and then show zero interest in the answer. You probably won’t answer it either, so my conclusion will be that you’re dishonest.
          And that’s fun. It makes your belief look bad. You make your belief look bad.

          “So do you béliève in santa claus??”
          I already answered that question. So again you make your belief look bad.
          Funny Susan.

        • MNb

          You made a request: “Show me that God doesn’t exist!”
          I fulfilled that request.
          You are a jerk – very unlike your great hero Jesus – for not appreciating the effort, even if you totally disagree.

        • adam

          “What exactly do you know about God?”

          THIS:

        • Greg G.

          I rather ask you… Show me that God doesnot exist.!

          You need to define God. If God is omnipotent and benevolent, the existence of suffering proves he doesn’t exist. (See
          http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2015/05/christianity-becomes-an-african-religion-islam-overtakes-christianity-and-other-upcoming-changes/#comment-2051503025 ) If God is omnipotent but not benevolent, then he may as well be Satan. If God is benevolent, but not omnipotent, he can hardly be called a god because many people and some dogs are benevolent and not omnipotent.

        • Kodie

          Not abandoned at all. I don’t know what kind of crazy imaginary stuff you’re talking about. It would be trivial for a supernatural being to let us all know that he exists, but instead he’s apparently sent you to ramble on, just like all others before you have rambled on. What kind of mind do you have that rambling from others has impressed you that this imaginary being exists? What kind of suggestible mind do you have where this even makes any sense? I don’t know what to make of religious people always talking about things that aren’t real as if they are.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Kodie have you ever read the Bible?

        • Kodie

          That silly book?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Yes, Kodie, the first book ever being printed.

          Translated to 2500 languages,

          Have you read the most FAMOUS BOOK and BEST SELLER of all times through HISTORY?

          More facts about the Bible.

          Was written:

          over a 1500 year span (from 1400 B.C to A.D. 100)

          over 40 generations

          over 40 authors from many walks of life (i.e. – kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, scholars)

          in different places (i.e. – wilderness, dungeon, palaces)

          at different times (i.e. – war, peace)

          in different moods (i.e. – heights of joy, depths of despair)

          on three continents (Asia, Africa, and Europe)

          in three languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek)

        • Kodie

          None of these things makes you sound less delusional.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Those are facts. Very well proven.

          Anyway. Have you read the BIBLE?

        • Kodie

          Listen, you’re weak of mind to let other people influence you and believe this bullshit. Why do you think we’d think you are credible? You use a lot of poor reasoning. Popularity is no reason to believe it.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Have you ever read the Bible?

        • Kodie

          I read some of it, and it’s silly.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Sorry to keep asking. What part of the Bible did you read and why is “silly” for you. I can notice that many nonbelievers have never read the Bible in full.
          How can you have an opinion of the Bible, when you do not even know it?

        • Kodie

          Your incoherent rambling tells me everything I need to know about Christianity and what it could do for me.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          But you still have not answering the question: How can you criticize a book you have never read? How can you debate themes you do not know?

        • Greg G.

          Most people who consider themselves to be Christian have not read much of the Bible.

          Christians can’t agree on which parts are historical and which are metaphor and “disagree” is an understatement. Some think Adam & Eve is history and the world is 6000 years old. Other Christians are embarrassed by those people. Some think Jesus was not divine.

          If people who think the Bible is worth reading and believing cannot agree on what it means, why is it important which parts Kodie has read? Maybe you should say what parts you take seriously and we’ll point out why that can’t possibly be right.

        • MNb

          I have read Revelation, so I can criticize it. I have read a few huge chunks of other Bible Books, so I can criticize them. If you bring up a Bible quote and it’s relevant for the topic we discuss I will look it up and read the entire chapter for context. So I can criticize it.
          I don’t everything about physics and math, even if it’s my job to teach them. I know the parts I teach very well. So I can criticize them.
          Your Holy Book is not special in any means. I don’t have to know everything about it to criticize it.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Anyone can réad. Only few will understand, which of course is not your case.

        • Kodie

          How brainless you are: you actually think you’re onto something. I read it and about it, and only fools like you believe that it was true.

        • adam

          Themes?

        • Greg G.

          I have read the Bible devotionally as a Christian. The second time I read it, I read it for comprehension and it helped to destroy my faith. I have studied it quite a bit for the last decade with my critical thinking hat on instead of God goggles. It is better if you read it with a serious adult viewpoint instead of reading it with childlike awe. It just a collection of writings by the most educated people of the day who were scientifically ignorant and religiously gullible.

        • MNb

          If I may answer the question: I read Revelation on one go and thoroughly enjoyed it, exactly because it’s silly. A random example:

          Rev 16:13 “And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.”

          Excellent metaphor! Frogs leaping out of mouths is something everyone can see every day .

        • Why ask? What happens when you read the whole thing? Something magic?

          You’ve perhaps heard it said that the best way to create an atheist is to have a Christian read the Bible honestly.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Have you done that ? Have you réad the bible honestly?

        • Ask me that after you’ve read the holy books of all the other religions honestly.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          I ha on l’y read the quran. But i do not consider IT Holy. Whats your point?

        • I’m surprised that my point wasn’t obvious, but thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify: You demand that I “read the Bible honestly.” I’ll think about it only after you show me that you’re consistent and read every holy book from all the other religions.

          Otherwise, you’re privileging Christianity’s holy book without a good reason (besides “It’s my religion’s holy book!”).

        • Susana Gonzalez

          So what is your point of criticizing the BIBLE if you do not even know its content? You have not read it. You only read from here and there and what others have posted in the internet through atheist sites. I though you had your own criteria…

        • And once again you avoid the issue. I think I hear a baby crying in the distance …

          Respond to the issue (or admit that you have nothing) and we can then talk about something else.

        • MNb

          So what is your point of declaring the Bible holy if you haven’t even begun to read all the other religious books that claim to be holy? You have not read them. You haven’t even read from here and there and what others have posted on the internet on christian sites. Just nada, zilch. Apparently you have no criteria at all.

        • MNb

          Why do you consider the Bible holy, but not the Quran? And how do you rule out the option that some other Holy book is the holy one?

        • adam

          Not silly, but disgusting….

        • Kodie

          Upon closer inspection, the bible sure is disgusting, but my first impression of it is what’s wrong with the brain of any adult who believes this is true?

        • adam

          ” what’s wrong with the brain of any adult who believes this is true?”

          No kidding, huh…

          The real problem is that religion and propaganda work to make adults WANT to believe this is true.

          This must be the most powerful political tool ever created by man.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          So the jewish ppl who follows torah, still pourchase slaves? Prove your point pls. From what i heard is ISSI Who are slaving ppl. But ..not I dont see that you are upset because of IT. Blind or you focus to point out only the Torah? Which means you do not care for slaves. You only care for What happened 3800 yrs ago.

        • adam

          The point is that “ISSI” is actually following their ‘god’s word, everybody who does not has better morals that the ‘god’ they CLAIM to worship, so why do they even NEED a ‘god’.

          So YOU think SLAVERY is NOT disgusting?
          I think slavery IS disgusting AS IS THE ‘god’ who sanctions it.

          So YOU are in the “ISSI” camp?

          Here is another example of something a disgusting ‘god’ promotes in his ‘word’

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Exodus 21:16 “Whoever kidnaps another person must be put to death, whether he has sold the … shall steal a man, and sell him, being convicted of guilt, shall be put to death.”
          ARE YOU AGREE WITH THE SENTENCE ABOVE?

          People have been slaving people for thousands of years. It has been pretty normal. Most probably your ancestors owned slaves. SO Tell me now. Do you think is ok to slave people or not? and why.

        • adam

          16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

          This is speaking about stealing someone else’s PROPERTY…

          NOT about slavery.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Lol

        • adam

          So YOU find SLAVERY humorous.

          I am not surprised…

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Someone means what exact l’y? You are funny!

        • adam

          someone
          : some person

          Merriam Webster

          So what does kidnapping have to do with SLAVERY.

          Your bible quote gives no punishment for selling into slavery, JUST for STEALING

          You are scary…..

        • adam

          slave

          : someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay

        • Susana Gonzalez

          http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-16.htm
          “Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.

          Do you agree with the above verse??

        • adam

          slave

          : someone who is legally owned by another person and is forced to work for that person without pay

        • And by picking the happy verses in the Bible and pretending that the bad ones don’t exist, you are not being funny. Maybe obnoxious. Or stupid.

        • MR

          I love the fact that the very next verse following the one she quoted is:

          “He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.

          And I so want to ask her: ARE YOU AGREE WITH THE SENTENCE ABOVE?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          And by picking the “bad” verses in the Bible (according to your own criteria)and making your whole doctrine you are not being intelligent. Maybe ignorant. or…

        • Greg G.

          Are you implying that the verses (Leviticus 26: 27-29; Deuteronomy 28:53-57; Jeremiah 19:9; Ezekiel 5:10; 2 Kings 6:28-29a) that sound like God has a fetish about people eating their babies are not bad verses? The same Bible forbids eating pork, though.

        • adam

          No accounting for taste….

        • Well, pig and long pig aren’t the same thing. Just sayin’.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Bob cannot answer a question, that needs someone to answer for him?

        • Greg G.

          What does Bob not answering a question have to do with you not answering my questions to you?

        • adam

          What is ‘intelligent’ about believing in IMAGINARY beings who support slavery?

        • Greg G.

          The Bible specifically allows slaves to be bought and sold. It doesn’t allow a Jew to kidnap someone to make them a slave but it doesn’t forbid buying someone who was kidnapped, either. It allows a person to sell himself and it allows a man to sell his daughter.

        • Your god is cool with slavery.

          That seems to be a problem.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Are Jews people slaving? No of course not. You do not understand the point and context of this bible verse.

          My GOD dictates the death penalty for slavers:

          Exodus 21:16 “Whoever kidnaps another person must be put to death, whether he has sold the … shall steal a man, and sell him, being convicted of guilt, shall be put to death.”

          People have been slaving people for thousands of years. It has been pretty normal. Most probably your ancestors owned slaves. SO Tell me now. Do you think is ok to slave people or not? and why.

        • adam

          So what does kidnapping have to do with slavery?

          The quote isnt concerned ‘whether he has sold the ….” man’ that is perfectly OK with bible ‘god’

          “Whoever kidnaps a person, whether he has sold him or whether the victim is still in his possession, is certainly to be put to death.

          This is about STEALING, slavery is AOK with bible ‘god’

          However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You
          may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

          When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will
          not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.
          (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

        • And once again you avoid (or miss) the point. I’m not saying that Jews enslave today. I don’t even much care if Jews enslaved in the past. The point is that your God accepts slavery!

          You’re poorly educated on this subject. Read my post here.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          who told you slavery is wrong? for millenniums atheists and pagans have slaved people.

          You think is wrong? so the BIBLE:

          “Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.”

          http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-16.htm

        • For the third fucking time: your god is OK with slavery! Your god has the moral sense of a desert sheep herder from 3000 years ago (almost as if that’s who made him up).

          That’s the point. If you want to try to dig yourself out of that hole, fine. I’ll listen. But don’t waste our time changing the subject, again.

        • Kodie

          There are slaves in every country in the world now as well as underpaid workers in deplorable conditions, who technically have freedom but in reality have a lack of choice, and I care about all of them. I don’t get any indication from the god in the bible that this is wrong, and I don’t even get any indication from the consumers in the US currently that this is wrong. You are the one clinging to a book of instructions thousands of years old. How are you able to pick and choose from it what to believe and do? Why are you holding it up to me and telling me how can I criticize it? If you are here thousands of years later still believing that shitty nonsense, then I have you to argue with, not “god”. God doesn’t exist. If you are disbelieving or distorting any of that book, then how can you hold it up as an example of anything worthwhile? You obviously hate the book, if you choose to disagree with it in any part. You can’t say one minute that the book is ultimate everything, and then change things and say “well that was a long time ago and we are different now”. If slavery was wrong, the words coming out of god’s mouth at the time would have said so. Slavery can’t just be wrong now because conveniently we don’t need it anymore, which isn’t true – according to the ignorance with which people purchase and consume goods in stores, they depend on the low prices for those goods that are provided by slavery at the root, so you could say slavery is still necessary and there’s nothing wrong with it, because you need to save money.

          But you think slavery is bad, except when it’s good, except for a long time ago, when it turned out to be pretty useful to consider humans as if they were machines. God’s rules of slavery were not humane – they were instructions how not to waste your resources unnecessarily. You may need to beat a service animal (exactly what a slave is) in order to get it to work, but the rules against killing that slave weren’t to uphold or recognize the slave’s humanity or dignity, or to compare it to murder of another human being, but to maintain that slave in good working condition so you wouldn’t have to replace him or her. You still think “god” sounds like a decent moral being? You still think a magical moral spirit wrote that book, or more likely that it was just written by people about their local culture who didn’t think there was anything wrong with slavery?

          We’re not opposed to god – we’re opposed to morons like you who still think there is actually a god and worships that god, no matter if the words coming out of your filthy mouth have to adjust to the fact that the god you worship has been presented as nasty and immoral. That cognitive dissonance where you actually behave more like an asshole because of your belief than you would without it. A moral person wouldn’t excuse immorality, even if that’s what their god said thousands of years ago. Idiots like you are still clinging to every word in that old filthy silly stupid book.

        • Greg G.

          The Torah allows the Jews to own slaves but doesn’t compel them to do so while the laws of every nation today forbids them to do so. If ISIS is enslaving people, they have biblical justification for it.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          You posted before “It (the BIBLE) doesn’t allow a Jew to kidnap someone to make them a slave ”
          ISIS is kidnaping people and slaving them. This is not biblical. You contradicted yourself.
          If the only way to free those slaved women, would be to “purchase” them from ISIS..Would you do it?

        • And once again you’re off in the weeds.

          The Old Testament shows God totally OK with slavery. And you worship this guy??

        • Susana Gonzalez

          You have not answering m’y questions:
          1- Why you think slavery is wrong? Has been practiced by non-believers for milleniums!!

          2- Having the power and money to purchase the yazidi girls slaved by Isis…Will you purchased thèm ? Yes or not.

        • Kodie

          The idea is not to encourage their behavior by paying any ransom. As soon as you bought those girls’/women’s freedom, they would see it as a profitable business and enslave many more.

        • Kodie

          Another stupid thing you’re stupidly overlooking is that by purchasing slaves from a slave-owner, doesn’t mean you are a slave-owner. You are trying to say that buying women from a slave-owner makes you a slave-buyer, but if money could buy someone’s freedom, as their “owner”, setting them free is not the same as buying slaves to own. You’re fucking stupid for making this shit about ISIS when the concept here is your GOD makes owning people a normal and not immoral thing to do, like how we own vacuum cleaners and lawn mowers. YOU ARE the one who is avoiding the actual subject. YOU ARE the one who thinks god does all the right moral things, and yet, he fucked it up. You’re disgusting.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          You keep ignoring my question. Are you afraid to answer? I Will Not answer you, until you have the enough courage to answer What a décent Human Would do.

        • adam

          A decent Human would have more MORALS than a slave approving ‘god’

          Dont YOU?

        • MNb

          What a decent human being would do is rejecting stufff like

          1 Peter 2:18 “Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.”

          for instance by buying them free from those masters.
          You are only partly a decent human being if you reject this with your deeds, but not with your mouth.

        • I’ve already answered your questions.

          Still waiting for answers to mine. As a wise person recently said, “What a décent Human Would do.”

          Perhaps you need a reminder: What could possibly justify your God being OK with slavery?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          You have not answering Bob, because you Are AFRAID to accept that you would follow God laws. So hère I go AGAIN:

          Would you purchase” à ISIS (woman or child ) yazidi slave to rescue from their misèry?

          YES or NOT?

          If you say no… I would add..

          What about If the child is yours!

          Would you Like soméone pay a ramson for his/her freedom?

          Your fans are watching! Do not run away from MY QUESTION

        • Kodie

          Hey, you loser, YOU are ignoring all the questions and the answers to your question that don’t fulfill your need to “gotcha!”

        • Greg G.

          The better question is would you buy an ISIS slave to own and use as a slave as the Bible allows?

        • adam

          ..

        • I’ve already answered your question. Since it didn’t stick the first time, I won’t do it again.

          But since you bring it up, I’ll rub your nose in the fact that you are afraid of answering my question: how does it feel to be worshipping a slavery-supporting god who has a poorer understanding of morality than you do?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          No you dont..but in case, you might please refresh your answer…

          I almost forget… because you have problems with simply maths I will bring one more time the verses of my LIVING GOD. Then you will be baseless to continue with your lies.

          I WORSHIP a Perfect GOD who has nothing to do with your lies.

          EXODUS 21:16 “Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.

          EXODUS: 22 :21
          “You must not mistreat or oppress foreigners in any way. Remember, you yourselves were once foreigners in the land of Egypt.

          Jeremiah 22:3
          This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

          1 Timothy 1:10
          for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for *slave traders* and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

          No my friend, you are highly wrong, judging a LIVING GOD what you DO NOT EVEN KNOW.

          I ANSWERED YOU, now ANSWER My Question, if you are not ashamed of being caught in your own lies.

        • Greg G.

          There is nothing in the OT about a Jew not being able to buy a slave that was kidnapped as long as the Jew didn’t do the kidnapping.

          If the only way to free those slaved women, would be to “purchase” them from ISIS..Would you do it?

          I would not. Such a market would fund terrorism and cause even more kidnappings.

          Would you free enslaved women that way?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Your friend RUDY wrote: “”I believe it’s morally correct to pay for someone’s freedom.”

          Of course is correct to use any means to free the innocent from the oppressor.
          But you rather prefer to allow someone to suffer, even if you had the power or the money to free them.
          This is wrong. Is wrong to see people suffering and being a simple spectator! READ my previous post to RUDY

        • Greg G.

          How much would you pay to free someone from oppression? How many times would you do it? Until you spent every penny to your name?

          You could release a few from suffering but then others would be kidnapped into that suffering. They might torture the next batch even more so you and your friends would feel obliged to pay even more.

          By saving one person from suffering by that means would only make others suffer instead.

          You have moved the goalposts. If I had the power, I would end the whole slavery racket. But I am not God. If God exists, it must be his will that ISIS enslaves and causes suffering. You might make God angry by spoiling his fun.

          If you want me to read a post in another sub thread, you should post the link. Disqus doesn’t make it easy to find replies like that.

        • Kodie

          You’re an idiot. It’s not morally correct to infuse cash into the terrorist network, and it’s more morally correct to let people die if they can’t be rescued, but it is better to free them by any other means than money. You can’t really see a big picture, and you think it’s better to fund terrorists who’ll only kidnap more women and everyone else if it is profitable to them, and keep paying them off to set the prisoners free. So if you had cancer, your favorite treatment would be whatever makes that cancer bigger! Or let’s give a baby cancer. Maybe the baby will have to die of cancer if we can’t find a cure or any attempt at surgery didn’t work as well as we planned. But your moral plan, directed by your fucked-up morality from your imaginary friend, would be to feed that baby cigarettes and asbestos and sugar and uranium. To free a few people, you’re going to fund a nuclear holocaust. Thanks, asshole!

        • Kodie

          Jews are all about the loopholes.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          What about the slave is your own child…

        • adam

          What about it, bible god has no problem with slavery

          Or hating your children, it appears to REQUIRE it…

        • Greg G.

          Of course, I would. I would even trade places, if necessary.

          I would probably trade your children for mine. Sorry.

          If it were your favorite child being held as a slave by ISIS, would you trade your second favorite child if that was the ransom? See, the questions get harder in these hypotheticals. I would still like a “yes” or “no” answer per Matthew 5:37 and James 5:12.

          But, no, I would not buy an anonymous person out of slavery if it resulted in one or more people taken into slavery because of it.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          This is a clear example:

          Non christian COUNTRY, Japan did not pay ransom for their citizens:

          http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-japanese-hostages-japan-reiterates-it-will-not-pay-ransom-as-72hour-200m-deadline-to-save-two-men-draws-closer-9995544.html

          “France, Italy, Spain and Germany have all found ways to channel money to terrorists in exchange for their citizens’ freedom.”
          http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/02/british-government-dilemma-refusing-pay-hostage-ransom-isis

          Why countries with a Christian majority paid the ransom AND HURRIED TO RESCUE THEIR citizens based on the biblical mandate: “Jeremiah 22:3 This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. **Rescue from the hand of the oppressor** the one who has been robbed. ”

          while non-christian Japanese government acted based more on logic and reason? (“not to fuel the terrorism” )

          BECAUSE OF THE HUMAN AND MORAL VALUES THAT ARE BASED ON THE BIBLE

          Even though you REFUSE to recognize that the countries with a majority of Christians acts more in compassion and value to a human life, this is not the same with countries as Japan and yourself. Not even in your power you would rescue a children from those wicked people. You claim to be “progressive humanist”, but you care less for a human being, an anonymous person in need simply, has ZERO value to you.

          Slavery has existed for thousands of years. People will always be taken to slavery.

          God protect us to have people like u in the government.

        • Greg G.

          Did you read your second link?

          Professionals say the payment of ransoms by countries whose nationals are kidnapped encourages further kidnappings as they represent a guaranteed cash return. Big European countries that are willing to pay millions of euros have inflated the price for other captives, putting the cost beyond the reach of families or employers trying to negotiate privately.

          The US and UK are not paying ransoms.

        • Kodie

          That’s an emotional trap, and you’re quite an asshole if you think if you make it emotional, then the “right” answer will emerge. If saving my own child means funding terrorists, then I have a selfish choice to prefer my own child to someone else’s child who will then be enslaved because by my selfish approach, I have demonstrated to terrorists that this scheme is profitable and they want to make money to build their terrorist organization. “I don’t care what else happens, I have to save my child at any cost” is not a moral choice. It is obviously an emotionally tough choice to do what’s for the greater good over what’s personally good for yourself, and so you think the right thing to do is buy the freedom for your own child. You have demonstrated that you do not understand even your own shitty arguments and why they are shitty. You want so badly for those Jews to be on the good side, that you would yourself kidnap someone’s child to prove something; you’re actually proving the opposite, that emotional appeals are the right reason to act.

          But you’re a terrorist! When the terrorist takes your child and tells you how much you need to pay to see your child go free, he is using the same argument as you are.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Most of People do not live on “reason and humanists views”

          If your child is kidnapped, you only wish as mother first and human second, your child be rescued or be treated well. B y a n y m e a n s.

          Is morally correct to wish someone rescue your child? after all paying for a ransom is the same than purchasing the person freedom. Money is involved.

          OF course not everyone thinks this is correct. “Humanist Japan” left their two citizens kidnapped by ISIS, to be killed not to fuel terrorism. Was this action ethically correct?

          Maybe yes. For the moment, ISIS terrorists understood that Japan will not cede to their demands. However, that will not stop terrorist of keep kidnapping people, and you might ask to the families of the victims what they would have had wished to be done. By now Japanese citizens KNOW that JAPAN will not move a finger to SAVE THEIR LIFE. Would you like to live among people like them? surely not me!, I count on my country Canada to protect my life and rights!

          So the reason why The BIBLE allowed “to purchase foreign slaves” implied more than simply transactions, we are talking of human life being destroyed, mistreated and where ancient ISRAEL (not the same as modern Jews) could purchase these people in disgrace and gave them a better life through work. Most probably those people had their home destroyed!! And we will never know how many of them, were freed or converted to Judaism.

          Think the contrary. What about if GOD would have said “not to purchase kidnapped people (alien slaves)”

          I am sure people would start to say…”God was merciless because HE did not allow ancient ISRAEL To purchase the freedom of foreign slaves, people in disgrace”

          People who oppose GOD will always find a way to be against HIS PRECEPTS.

          That is the true.

        • Kodie

          If you would kill maybe dozens or hundreds or thousands of people to save your own fucking stupid life, you’re not moral. You’re selfish. If you think your country should save you to endanger everyone else, you are not moral, you are selfish. You’re delusional if you think your own life is worth more than everyone else’s, and immoral and selfish. I don’t know what the fuck you think is right about your thinking. You are a terrorist, you think like a terrorist.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          You can tell all those countries that saves and rescue their citizens out of Kidnappers that they are not moral, but selfish.

          Humans who kidnap, murder and do evil to others lose the right to live. Point. This is what JUSTICE is about it. I think that “humanists” people like you would let crime to flourish!

        • MNb

          All of which has precious little to do with

          Exo 21:7-11 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter. If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.”

          Do you have a daughter to sell? I’m interested to buy her. Or maybe I can contact your father, so that I can buy you? I’ll convert to christianity first and after two years probably will buy another christian daughter.
          Deal?
          No?

          Then your argument is empty. And before you begin to sputter: I’ve read the entire chapter.

        • MR

          I love the cognitive dissonance that goes on here. If you could repackage these verses and read them as coming from some other religious tradition, a Christian would have no problem reading it for what it is. If Susana thought this came from the Koran, for example, I bet she’d go on and on about how it proves how barbaric Islam must be. But when it comes from your own holy book…, oh my, the justifications!

          Most Christians don’t even know all that’s in their holy book because they’re only directed to the feel good parts. I’d love to see a contest where they take verses from various religious texts and you have to guess from which text it came. I bet if you quoted the above verses and asked Christians if they came from the Bible or the Koran, most would guess the latter.

        • adam

          //

        • adam

          “Most of People do not live on “reason and humanists views”

          Of course they do…….

          Otherwise you would see a LOT more of THIS:

        • MNb

          That’s exactly why I don’t like what your favourite Holy Book writes about slavery.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Bob number 2, you only pick the verses and make a whole doctrine. I posted already the verses that contradicts such statements but you do not care to read it. In any analysis, you usually see the 2 sides, otherwise you can be accused of being biased. You are biased, because you REFUSE to understand the other side, as you already made up your mind is DIFFICULT to try to reason with you.

          When you do an analyse this way in the real life your subject of analysis will be criticized and dismissed. Biased analyses has no value my friend.

          I understand perfectly your side. I understand that you accuse GOD of allowing slavery, because GOD allowed hebrews to purchase foreign slaves, 3800 years ago and I understand that you are VERY CONCERNED for the ancient people being -purchased and owned by Hebrews.

          I brought the example of paying a ransom for innocent people being kidnapped and sold.
          You surely would wish someone rescue your child, spouse, parents etc. in this situation.

          Well ISRAEL was allowed to purchase slaves with this purpose. The posterior reading of the TORAH allows you to understand the treatment of those foreign people. Foreign Slaves FIT in this category.

          GOD regulated the practice of slavery in a time and circumstances only. But also GOD commanded the following:

          Exodus 23:9
          “Do not oppress a *foreigner*; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.

          **Because the slave was a foreigner, it was told to HEBREWS not to oppress them in any way.

          Deuteronomy 27:19
          “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.”

          **JUSTICE Was for everyone. Is that bad?

          Jeremiah 22:3
          This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

          **How exactly do you rescue someone has been robbed? WE are commanded to do it. Is that bad?

          Leviticus 24:17
          “‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.

          **from what I know USA still has the death penalty to murderers.

          and once rescue, HOW these persons suppose to live…as kings? no! they had to work like anyone else. That is common sense. Today, rescued refugees mostly live from welfare and “humanists’ liberal nations perpetuates laziness.

          Regulations on biblical slavery:

          The slave was a member of the master’s household (Lev. 22:11).

          The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10; Deut. 5:14).

          The slave was required to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13; Exodus 12:44;Lev. 22:11).

          The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17).

          The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).

          When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14).

          in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8–10).

          Even today modern employees are not members of the household of the employer. God commanded to treat a slave as a member of the household.
          Modern employees are exploited with low wages. Sometimes they are treated badly and sent without compensation add to that the depression and stress of harassment.

          I believe that is possible that many modern employees would wish to work, under the labor conditions of the Biblical “slavery’, house, food, no mistreatment, rest day, participation in festivities, being treated as members of the household, justice, compensation etc.

          I hope this position is clear. I will not answer anymore about this subject.

        • adam

          ///

        • MNb

          “Bob number 2”
          And yet another christian who doesn’t care about Matt. 7:1.

          “you only pick the verses and make a whole doctrine”
          Nope. I don’t make any doctrine out of anything from the Bible. You give one reason yourself:

          “I posted already the verses that contradicts such statements but you do not care to read it.”
          Oh, I did. Keyword in this quote: “contradicts”. So I conclude that your favourite holy book is of human origin and not of divine origin.

          “Biased analyses has no value my friend.”
          I suggest you to follow your own advise.

          “I understand that you accuse GOD of allowing slavery,”
          You don’t understand anything. I “accuse your god of just one thing: of non-existing. I accuse you of worshipping a god who according to your holy book allows slavery. What concerns me is not what some superstitious tribe about 2800 years ago did (sidenote: you’re about 1000 years off). What concerns me is what this superstitious book written by a superstitious tribe does with people like you today.

          “I brought the example of paying a ransom”
          And I already told you that this example of yours has nothing to do with

          Exo 21:7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter. If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.”

          I’d like to buy you; how can I contact your parents? If we have a deal I’ll convert and buy me another daugher within two years. What do you say?

        • adam

          …………..

        • MNb

          Yes, they are facts. It’s still silly to think it is relevant for us today.

        • adam

          Crap is popular…

        • I listened to half of this video. It’s half crap. I’m sure the second half of the video would complete the crap.

          If there is anything useful in there, point it out to us.

        • Cognissive Disco Dance

          Yeah if only atheists knew about the Bible. If only atheists knew that God gave Richard Dawkins “a multi-million dollar paycheck over and over again”. (Checkmate.) Wake up atheists!

        • Cognissive Disco Dance

          AS many atheists, he used to slander the Bible without knowing about it.

          That is so patronizing. It’s worse than those instructional CDs that came out when computers were becoming a thing. “Hey kids, have your parents explain about the mouse. Wooooooo the meesteriouuus mouse, wooooooo ivory tower.”

        • MNb

          You didn’t answer BobS’ question. Why did your god not contact him?
          Many atheists – not including me – know the Bible better than the vast majority of christians. Here on Patheos Atheist you’ll find several – Ryan Bell for instance, who lost his belief about two years ago. On this blog you’ll find Greg G. The Bible is a major reason not to be a christian.
          Btw – I don’t feel abandoned by your god. I abandoned him and are better off for it.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “Why did your god not contact him?” Because I do not know God ways.
          If I knew, God would not be a superior being, but human.

        • Kodie

          You don’t seem to know humans’ ways.

        • adam

          “Because I do not know God ways.”

          Then WHY do you ‘believe’ that YOUR ‘god’ is good?
          When it supports slavery, mass murder, misogny and more….

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Let us see if you can reason. WHO TOLD you slavery is WRONG? before Judaism, and Christianity slavery was practiced. Atheist, pagans were slavers, for MILLENNIUMS!

          billions of people have slaved others!

          the hebrews were slaves in EGYPT for 400 years. If there was a nation who knew what slavery meant, were the HEBREWS. YEt they were allowed to PURCHASE SLAVES from other nations in one time of their history.

          Hebrews were not allowed to kidnap and sell people, which is what slavers do. I will bring one more time the text: (because you seems slow to understand it)

          http://biblehub.com/exodus/21-
          “Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.

          IS clear to me that the act of kidnapping and selling people is FORBIDDEN IN THE BIBLE. This is what we call human trade. Slavery. GET IT?

          In case you have not noticed JEWS do not traffic slaves. Therefore your accusation is baseless.

          Now explain why slavery is wrong. Because is forbidden in USA? because the LAW says so? because your “moral” standards are higher than what the Bible says?

        • So lots of other people had slaves? Yes, I see that. So you’re saying that since everyone was doing it, it’s not a big deal if God was OK with it as well?

          It’s weird when the atheists have to teach the Christians about the moral standards that perfect gods must live up to. And by “weird,” I mean “pathetic.”

        • MNb

          “Atheist, were slavers, for MILLENNIUMS!”
          Prove it. See, modern atheism is only a few centuries old ….

          “Hebrews were not allowed to kidnap and sell people”

          Hebrews were totally allowed to sell people:

          Exo 21:7-8

          “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again.”

          Hey, I have a daughter to sell to BobS; he’s no stranger to me, so it’s OK. You’re the expert. What would you think an acceptable price?

        • I’m happy to follow the rules. If she doesn’t satisfy me, I’ll let you buy her back. That’s only fair.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Atheists have existed since the creation of this world!
          “What would you think an acceptable price?”
          YOU ARE THE FATHER
          What is the price for your daughter?

          Will you sell your daughter (in arrange marriage) if that was the only way to save your family from dying?

        • Rudy R

          Atheists and pagans were slavers, for MILLENNIUMS

          So Jews and Christians followed others in the practice of slavery. They followed others in murdering and stealing. Are are you going to make a moral argument for murdering and stealing as well?

          IS clear to me that the act of kidnapping and selling people is FORBIDDEN IN THE BIBLE

          But buying is allowed.

          “However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.” (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

          And selling your daughter is allowed too.

          “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.” (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

          Do we really need to explain why slavery is wrong? We can safely exclude the Bible as moral guidance against slavery.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          I will not argue the fact that buying foreign slaves was allowed inthe TORAH. But…be honest with your answer..if purchasing the ISIS slaves was the only way to free those yazidi women from their misery…would you do it? yes or not…

        • Rudy R

          You are drawing a wrong parallel. The Jews didn’t pay for the slave’s freedom. They paid to own slaves. But to answer your question, I believe it’s morally correct to pay for someone’s freedom.

          Do you believe slavery is wrong? if you do, it was contrary to the Bible’s teachings, because Yahweh condoned slavery.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “I believe it’s morally correct to pay for someone’s freedom.”

          Wonderful! OF COURSE IT IS…you have got the point.

          And this doesnot mean you support slavery.

          Is exactly the same for the BIBLE: IT WAS MORALLY CORRECT to purchase slaves to provide them for a better life AND FREE THEM FROM THEIR OPPRESSORS.

          We will never know if ancient Israel gave them freedom, most probably they would have been captured again, please note, that sometimes those people (bible slaves) had lost everything, family, lands etc. Being purchased, to live among ISRAEL, meant a better life FOR THEM.

          Leviticus 19:34
          The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

          Jeremiah 22:3
          This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. ***Rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed****. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

          PURCHASING FOREIGN SLAVES was a rescue, that GOD had provided. Which did not mean that GOD supports slavery as we know (the action of kidnap someone to sell them )

          If you believe Exodus is about slavering people, then you must be consistent, and believe that the LORD commanded to ***Rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed****

          Which is exactly what YOU WOULD do in case you see someone being oppressed.

          BECAUSE IS MORALLY CORRECT TO RESCUE SOMEONE FROM THE OPPRESSOR. RIGHT? EVEN IF YOU do it through money…

        • Rudy R

          I hate to let the air out of your balloon, but we don’t agree and you didn’t provide an “aha” moment. You look to the Bible for your moral values and I don’t. For me, the Bible is just a collection of stories, myths, folklore and a trace of history and was the reflection of Bronze Age, nomadic desert dwellers trying to understand the world and their place in it. Their moral values worked for them during those times, but in the 21 Century, they are outdated and in many cases, repugnant and illegal.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Rudy is not about picking bible verses to slander and accusing GOD of promoting slavery. This is not the case. I brough this example, because in ancient times people was far more wicked than today. There was not humanists, no human rights and each group of people used to fight for their survival. Ancient people slaved others, Egypt slaved hebrews and even murdered their babies males for many many years. When GOD allowed to hebrews to purchase slaves was not to promote slavery but to save them from a live of misery, Hebrews were GOD fearing people and we will never know how many of those slaves converted to Judaism or were freed. Think deep about the reasons why GOD allowed hebrews to purchase foreign slaves.

        • adam

          I will say it again, you’re an IDIOT

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery

          When a man strikes his male or female slave with a
          rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If,
          however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

        • Greg G.

          You need some “think deep”,

          Leviticus 25:44-46 (NRSV)44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.

          Only fellow Israelites were exempt from harsh treatment. The omission of other slaves from this restriction is a loophole to allow them to be treated harshly.

          Exodus 21:20-21 (NRSV)20 When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

          This passage allows a slave to be beaten to death as long as they suffer at least a day before dying.

          These passages show that the slaves you think are being relieved of misery are the ones who are specifically permitted to be treated harshly.

          Why do you keep lying about that?

        • adam

          “Why do you keep lying about that?”

          Dishonest support of a dishonest ‘god’.
          It is really the VERY BEST that she can do.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          I WORSHIP a Perfect GOD who has nothing to do with your lies.

          EXODUS 21:16 “Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.

          EXODUS: 22 :21
          “You must not **mistreat or oppress foreigners in any way. Remember, you yourselves were once foreigners in the land of Egypt.

          Jeremiah 22:3
          This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

          1 Timothy 1:10
          for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for *slave traders* and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine

          No my friend, you are highly wrong, judging a LIVING GOD what you DO NOT EVEN KNOW. how do you feel making up a whole deceived doctrine? your slanders are refuted by the BIBLE itself.

        • adam

          “I WORSHIP a Perfect GOD who has nothing to do with your lies.”

          When YOU have to LIE to represent YOUR ‘god’, THAT makes it clear what kind of ‘god’ you worship.

          One REQUIRING deception..

        • Can you not see how stupid this looks? Greg G. just quoted you from the goddamn Bible. You gonna trump that with what??

          I’ll type slowly so you can follow: your god legislates how slavery, both indentured servitude of fellow Hebrews plus slavery for life of non-Hebrews. He’s a Bronze Age bastard. Why worship him? You actually have superior morals than your god.

        • Greg G.

          I’m not sure that Exodus 21:16 is about slavery. is the word “sold” a word for “collected ransom and released”? But it doesn’t forbid buying kidnapped persons as slaves.

          Exodus 22:21 is not referring to slaves because two chapters before, an owner is allowed to beat a slave to death if they suffer a day or two. Leviticus 25:46 forbids beating an Israeli like that so that leaves foreigners as the only slaves that could be beaten to death.

          I have only quoted what the Bible actually says about slaves and it clearly allows only foreign slaves to be beaten to death if they die slowly. You are bringing up verses that have nothing to do with slavery.

          You should give up reading the Bible. You are not very good at it.

          You haven’t answered my question from another sub-thread. If you favorite child was held as a slave by ISIS, would you exchange your second favorite child?

        • Your God promoted slavery. Get over it. Stop denying it and address the arguments (in my blog posts or elsewhere) that God in the Old Testament clearly has no problems with slavery.

          Think deep about the reasons why GOD allowed hebrews to purchase foreign slaves.

          Been there, done that. Now it’s your turn: respond to the evidence that God had no problem with slavery. Read something besides a Christian apologetic on the subject.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          I responded already. You are biased in your analysis. Biased analyses has no value. You can be a blind guide for YOUR FANS THE other Bobs in this site who are there focused to help you to answer.

          “Think deep about the reasons why GOD allowed hebrews to purchase foreign slaves.’

          I did already but you did not. You even refused to answer, if you would free a kidnapped person, I asked you the same question 5 times. 5 times YOU REMAINED SILENCED.

          That says a lot about your moral.

          You seems so concerned for the slaves of 3800 years ago. What exactly are you doing for modern slavery?

        • adam

          Biased?

        • Your God supports slavery for life. Not a pleasant character. You can do better.

          I already told you: no, I wouldn’t pay hostage money. Why is this interesting to you?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Slavery still exists in modern world. This is a better cause you can fight for, Slavery is REAL, if you do what you preach, take that cause, than worrying for “mythological slaves” who passed away 3800 years ago.

          But this is NOT* something you care, rescuing slaves through hostage money,are not worth enough for your priorities. A per your own words (I already told you: no, I wouldn’t pay hostage money) .

          There are many organizations, Christians and non Christians who FIGHT and persecute and PURCHASE children freedom.

          http://www.christianpost.com/news/christian-human-trafficking-rescue-organization-launches-campaign-to-stop-men-from-participating-in-child-sex-slavery-113087/

          https://ourrescue.org/

          http://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/12/world/un-criticism-angers-charities-buying-sudan-slaves-release.html

          and many more religious or not.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRu6CaXTAxA

          You should wonder why most of the slavery is still practiced in countries where Christians are not a majority.

          The natural outcome would be, that if the TORAH and New testament allows slavery as you claim, many Christians and Jews **TODAY **would be involved on this.

          Note the word **TODAY.

          But the contrary is TRUTH. We are not slaving people. But If In my power I would purchase some else freedom. And Countries based on Christian principles are the ones who provide AID for people being persecuted.

          According to your morals, these organizations and countries must be wrong.

          They are simply following the BIBLE:

          http://biblehub.com/jeremiah/22-3.htm
          This is what the LORD says: Be fair-minded and just. Do what is right! Help those who have been robbed; rescue them from their oppressors. Quit your evil deeds! Do not mistreat foreigners, orphans, and widows. Stop murdering the innocent!

          Seriously…you claim yourself to be progressive humanist…

          “=Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings,
          =a person having a strong interest in or concern for human welfare,values, and dignity.”

          http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/humanist

          How far goes your concern for human welfare , value and dignity of a person?

          You and your followers, can proclaim to have morals and values but in paper “BOB”. Which is useless.

          when asked about the great Great Commandment, in Luke 10:25-28

          JESUS answered:

          25And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to receive eternal life?”

          26What is written in the Law?” Jesus replied. “How do you understand it?” 27He answered, “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.’(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ ” 28“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do that, and you will live.”.

          WE CHRISTIANS, do understand that this commandment is a Resume of the LAW of the prophets. If you love your neighbor, you will rescue, him, help him/her, feed, etc, the same way you would like to be treated, helped, rescued if you were in disgrace.

          This is what we follow. GOD Commanded to Love each other, to help each other…Even to our enemies…

          Do you think love/help, rescue each other is WRONG? Or do you rather agree with what Jesus SAID?

        • adam

          ??

        • Slavery still exists in modern world. This is a better cause you can fight for

          Yes, I do care about slavery. But why should you? You defend a deity who is fine with slavery. Shouldn’t you be consistent? Doesn’t your rejection of slavery point to the errors in the story about Yahweh?

          rescuing slaves through hostage money,are not worth enough for your priorities.

          But you would pay to encourage kidnappers to get slaves over and over?

          You should wonder why most of the slavery is still practiced in countries where Christians are not a majority.

          Good point, since the Christian god is OK with slavery!

          if the TORAH and New testament allows slavery as you claim

          And you claim otherwise? Then refute my posts that talk about slavery. Betcha can’t.

          And Countries based on Christian principles are the ones who provide AID for people being persecuted.

          And what countries are based on Christian principles?

          They are simply following the BIBLE

          Cherry picking the good bits and pretending the bad bits don’t exist–what a noble intellectual tradition!

          Though I do think I hear a baby crying in the distance …

          Seriously…you claim yourself to be progressive humanist

          Yup. And here’s the irony–you are a better person than your god. You have much better morals. You know right and wrong. And yet you worry about a god would can’t figure out that slavery is wrong? What better clue that this is just pretend?

          WE CHRISTIANS, do understand that this commandment is a Resume of the LAW of the prophets. If you love your neighbor, you will rescue, him, help him/her, feed, etc, the same way you would like to be treated, helped, rescued if you were in disgrace.

          Yet more cherry picking. Why not reject the Ten Commandments, which has room for “don’t covet” but seems to forget “don’t enslave” and “don’t rape.” Whoops—must’ve slipped the mind of the Almighty.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Incapable to reason. you are guilty of what you accuse: “Cherry picking the bad bits and pretending the good bits don’t exist–what a noble intellectual tradition!”

        • So then you can’t respond to the individual points of my comment.

          Duly noted.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Having a clear answer from you took me 1 week and 5 times asking the same question. Why I should respond your “individual ” points? you did not even commented on the Biblical quotes I posted. The question was: if they were moral or not. And your personal opinion of them. Instead you began to attack and argue. You know what your problem is?
          You REFUSE to accept hat the BIBLE can be a moral guide. You choose the texts and twist to follow your own deception. It does not work that way. You do not even have read the whole BIBLE in a honest way. You admitted it previously.

          So your points are dismissed.

        • MR

          So your points are dismissed.

          That’s what’s known as a cop out.

        • adam

          “You REFUSE to accept hat the BIBLE can be a moral guide. ”

          No, not at all…

          The problem is with the morals IN the bible..

        • Having a clear answer from you took me 1 week and 5 times asking the same question.

          Yeah, and I gotta take some blame for that. Questions meant to divert us from the real issue, especially from someone who refuses to answer questions addressed them, are low priority on my list.

          You know what your problem is? You REFUSE to accept hat the BIBLE can be a moral guide.

          Wrong again. You could use a Ouija board as a moral guide. You could use the phone book as a moral guide. I’d rather you didn’t, of course, but that’s not the point.

          I think the Bible sucks as a moral guide—everything that’s good advice you already knew from other sources, and there’s plenty of bad advice and example there. The best I could say about it is that there are good parables and memorable stories in it that have become part of modern culture.

          You choose the texts and twist to follow your own deception. It does not work that way.

          Say … I have an idea! When I make a point about the Bible, show me how my interpretation is wrong.

          Cuz when you’re just deceptive and whine about how you can’t respond, that just makes clear that you have no argument. You want us to accept your claims without evidence.

          You wouldn’t accept that from me. Why should I accept it from you?

          So your points are dismissed.

          Translation: “I can’t respond.” Yeah, got it.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “Say … I have an idea! When I make a point about the Bible, show me how my interpretation is wrong.”

          I did already. But you refuse to accept it. I am not here to convince you. You can dig to your own deception. Make a favor to yourself and your followers and at least have a conversation to a Jewish Rabbi and ask about the slavery issue. That will be a more honest approach. If you ever know what honesty means.

        • You showed me nothing. You simply asserted that God’s actions in the Bible are super-duper moral. Why wait for a rabbi? We have you here, and you understand the issue perfectly. It’s odd that you don’t share that knowledge with us. You know that not providing evidence for your assertions makes baby Jesus cry, right?

          You lose.

        • MNb

          “….a Jewish Rabbi and ask…..”
          Like this one?

          http://www.jewishjournal.com/articles/item/how_culpable_were_dutch_jews_in_the_slave_trade

          It seems like BobS’ view finds some agreement among jewish scholars. Now the question is – are you honest enough
          a) to read the book?
          b) to react to my comment?

          If you ever know what honesty means.

        • adam

          “If you ever know what honesty means.”

          Whup, there goes another coffee and keyboard…

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “Why wait for a rabbi? We have you here, and you understand the issue perfectly. ”

          You are not afraid of talking to a RABBI are you?

          http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/158,2473/Why-does-the-Torah-allow-slavery.html
          what a better source of information of the descendants of the people who practiced the TORAH laws. I mean, you cannot go against a people who is well versed in his own history and the TORAH. I think he is in better position to let you know how ignorant you are in these subjects. I have been telling you, already..anyway.

          Go to the source and get the right information. If you are interested in the TRUTH of course. But if you are interested in mocking others beliefs, while making up lies, as you have been doing, you are free to deceive yourself. Oh a little advise..they will not put the “other cheek.” so be nice to them and they will be nice to you. Respect them and they will respect you.

          Ah for your records.. how do you like the moral of these people…
          http://listverse.com/2010/06/05/10-people-who-give-atheism-a-bad-name/

          Morality is relative. An atheist born in USA will not have the same moral standard, than an atheist born in Korea. Each one accommodates what they think is good or bad. They do not have a moral compass. They did behave how a person with out moral, is expected to behave. No slavery here. They enjoy killing people. Between ISIS and those genocidal atheists, Isis seems to be amateurs. What another proof you want? This is my evidence, Atheists do not have a moral guide Ruddy declared that he would pay a ransom for the victims of slavers.(not you, you will let them be raped, tortured etc., as your “humanist behavior” is only on paper…) that was a really bad response and I understand why you SPENT so much days avoiding my question.

          ASK YOURSELF what was the moral guide of those atheists..oh yes.. their moral guide was the disbelief in GOD. No difference in this point, between you and them.

        • You are not afraid of talking to a RABBI are you?

          Not afraid of sticking to the subject at hand, are you?

          If you can find a rabbi who wants to add to the conversation, point them our way.

          what a better source of information of the descendants of the people who practiced the TORAH laws

          So you’re a Jew then?

          If not, why would you care in the least what Jews thought? They obviously have it wrong. John says that they took corporate blame for killing Jesus. You say that they cluelessly had the Messiah in front of them and ignored him.

          I think he is in better position to let you know how ignorant you are in these subjects. I have been telling you, already

          I’m hearing crickets. You’ve certainly got nothing. Got a rabbi friend who can do better? Bring it on.

          Ah for your records.. how do you like the moral of these people…

          Rev. Jim Jones an atheist? You need to read better sources.

          As for Stalin et al, look up what I’ve written about that argument. (Spoiler: I wasn’t impressed.)

          Morality is relative.

          I agree. It’s surprising to hear that from you, however.

          An atheist born in USA will not have the same moral standard, than an atheist born in Korea.

          A Christian born in the US will not have the same moral standard as a Confucian born in Korea. So what?

          They do not have a moral compass.

          They have a different moral compass.

          (Drunk typing makes you look stupid. Sober up next time.)

          They did behave how a person without moral, is expected to behave.

          No, that’s God in the Old Testament that you’re thinking of–he was largely without morals.

          declared that he would pay a ransom for the victims of slavers.(not you, you will let them be raped, tortured etc., as your “humanist behavior” is only on paper…) that was a really bad response and I understand why you SPENT so much days avoiding my question.

          No, you don’t understand why I dismissed your question. (But why explain it again when you don’t care?)

          Your morality is to pay slavers to keep getting slaves. I’d prefer to focus on the root of the problem, thank you.

          ASK YOURSELF what was the moral guide of those atheists..oh yes.. their moral guide was the disbelief in GOD.

          Wrong again. More stupid typing.

          Atheism says nothing about morality—like chemistry, for example.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          If not, why would you care in the least what Jews thought?

          Because “BOB” if you really want to write about a subject and LEARN, you need to turn to Scholars who know better than you. You are not historian, not a researcher, and your analysis are mediocre, slanderous. You write to destroy, not to build. Any Jewish scholar will say clearly how mediocre your analysis are.

          I always wonder what your Christian relatives must think of your “hobby”.
          —————————————————————————————————–

          “A Christian born in the US will not have the same moral standard as a Confucian born in Korea. So what?”

          Wrong. They will have the same Moral standard. And this from 2000 years ago. Of course there will be always be “nominal Christians’ who lately believe in nothing.

          ——————————————————————————————————

          “A Christian born in the US will not have the same moral standard as a Confucian born in Korea. S…”

          They have a different moral compass.

          Different? Nooo, they have an EVIL moral compass. Because if you dismiss the 10 commandments, what exactly do you stand for? if you do not believe in God, why not to murder as “atheists” have done? after all, for you there is no punishment. The Men Law can punish you for murdering.

          But when the LAW was made by atheists murdering is not that bad…

          Those atheists believed the same as you: “there is no GOD”

          What make you different? What stop you to do anything you want..after all MORALITY among people of your kind… is RELATIVE, like the wind.

          http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/richard-dawkins-sexist-atheists-bad-name

        • Kodie

          Why would any religious scholar have an answer that disputes what reading the actual biblical text says? Where are they getting their different answers from what it says in the text of their god? I am, but you’re not, skeptical of what anyone says whose primary job it is to rationalize what horrification the bible provides in order to excuse god from justified criticism.

          You’re a terrible person with terrible morals. You believe someone whose job it is to go against what god says and make up his own beliefs about what it really means, so it doesn’t sound so bad.

        • if you really want to write about a subject and LEARN, you need to turn to Scholars who know better than you.

          Whaaa … ? You listen to Jewish scholars? Don’t tell me you do unless you’re a Jew!

          You are not historian, not a researcher, and your analysis are mediocre, slanderous.

          Show me. You’ve got a big mouth; put some evidence behind it.

          That you don’t makes clear that you have nothing with which to respond to my arguments. Kinda sad that you’re still here. I think I hear baby Jesus crying in response to your performance …

          You write to destroy, not to build.

          Wrong again! (There’s a hat trick in there somewhere.) I naively imagine a world where people believe things that are true. Sound like a good dream?

          Any Jewish scholar will say clearly how mediocre your analysis are.

          Another bold, unevidenced claim. “Cuz I said so, that’s why!” That doesn’t even work with a parent talking to a child; it sure as hell won’t work on me.

          if you dismiss the 10 commandments, what exactly do you stand for?

          That’s the ultimate in morality? The first 4 are in direct contradiction to the U.S. Constitution! Should we throw that out as well?

          if you do not believe in God, why not to murder as “atheists” have done? after all, for you there is no punishment.

          Yeah, I did that for a while. But the weirdest thing happened—when I told the cop and then the judge that I was an atheist, that didn’t seem to matter at all! Can you believe it? It’s almost like atheists have family, friends, and even society to answer to!

          What make you different? What stop you to do anything you want..after all MORALITY among people of your kind… is RELATIVE, like the wind.

          You’ve been told a lie—there are stupid questions. Think about this (and read my posts on morality), then come back and have a thoughtful conversation about it with us.

        • MNb

          Sure the Bible can be a moral guide. It was for this theologian.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobus_Capitein

          Was he also a deceiver?
          Or perhaps you are the one with a problem.

        • Greg G.

          You REFUSE to accept hat the BIBLE can be a moral guide.

          One cannot use the Bible as a moral guide. There are so many immoral teachings that one must have an understanding of morality first to make the distinctions. If one already has an understanding of morality, the Bible is unnecessary.

        • adam

          “If one already has an understanding of morality, the Bible is unnecessary.”

        • adam

          ….

        • MNb

          So much for Matth. 7:1. You defy your own belief system.

        • adam

          “”Cherry picking the bad bits”

          Why would an all-knowing ‘god’ put bad bits in, in the first place?

        • adam

          …..

        • Rudy R

          So your god had no better option than slavery to help his chosen people? Seems like he was very unimaginative in his approach to problem solving. It would behoove your god to take your advice to think deep.

        • Kodie

          Why do you think they were freed if we cannot know? The bible god gives instructions how to treat slaves (labor animals) so they weren’t mistreated so much that they wouldn’t function. It’s possible for human beings, even in the bible, to come out morally superior to god, but you don’t admit this for some reason.

        • Hilarious! So now you tell us that the Old Testament gives the clear and unambiguous message that the only interaction Jews had with slavery was to buy slaves’ freedom?

          I think you need to go back to Sunday school.

        • adam

          ” WHO TOLD you slavery is WRONG?”

          HUMAN BEINGS

          YOUR ‘god’ condones it in the bible..

          However, you may purchase male or female slaves from
          among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

        • Susana Gonzalez

          For millemiums unbelievers and believers owned slaves. why do you think is wrong? do not bring the bible, I want to know your own opinion on this.

        • adam

          “For millemiums unbelievers and believers owned slaves. why do you think is wrong?”

          Because I have better morals that the bible ‘god’.

        • adam

          Why do you believe that YOUR ‘god’ is OK with owning people as PROPERTY?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Why you do not answer my question?

        • adam

          Why you do not answer my question?

        • Kodie

          It’s called human empathy. The bible doesn’t teach human empathy, it seems to make the baseless assertion that morality comes from a deity. You believe this, but you are also avoiding the subject. Why would a perfect deity not only allow slavery, but give instructions how to treat slaves? The puzzle is solved without a god existing – people didn’t know any better and we progressed by observing and communicating and creating new laws. With a god existing, your assertion, slavery would still be used through history, but it never makes sense if god is moral, that ancient instructions from GOD would condone slavery, if slavery is now considered wrong.

          So does it make any sense without a god that slavery existed? Of course. It makes a lot of sense that the bible was written by people who thought slavery was great and useful. It just doesn’t make sense that the bible was authored or inspired by the god that you claim. You recognize this in the bible is wrong, you realize slavery is now considered wrong, but you still allow that god thinking slavery is ok is both FROM GOD AND NOT A HUMAN, and also PERFECTLY FINE AT THE TIME ACCORDING TO GOD.

          If he’s god, anyone but a drooling moron would say if slavery is immoral, then it was god’s prerogative to say something to that effect then, knowing his words were being written down for posterity. Knowing thousands of years in the future, you’d believe every word of it makes sense and is true. An imperfect god might change his point of view based on popularity, which is what everything in the bible basically is – god changing his mind according to the author and the author’s experience in their culture.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          The BIBLE did teach human empathy, but you are unaware of this. God was not “ok” with slavery, this is far to be TRUE. Kidnap someone and sell , meant the death penalty in the TORAH:

          Exodus 21:16 “Kidnappers must be put to death, whether they are caught in possession of their victims or have already sold them as slaves.”

          This LAW is consistent with the NEW testament, therefore GOD has not changed in this issue:

          http://biblehub.com/nlt/1_timothy/1.htm

          9For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. 10The law is for people who are sexually immoral, or who practice homosexuality, or are **slave traders**

          The trade of slaves is a serious sin that GOD Punish.
          So Why GOD would allow Hebrews to purchase foreign slaves in a specific time of their history ?

          First at all, I personally believe there is compassion involved, due the fact the slavers were wicked people. Actually I see the “transaction” more as a ransom for people without hope who had lost everything, as we know that slavering people meant destroying families and land.

        • Rudy R

          Or you couldn’t know he is a superior being because you don’t know his ways.

        • adam

          is it my imagination or..do you just feel abandoned by Vishnu?
          I like this testimony. AS many theists, YOU slander the Vedas without knowing about it.

        • Kodie

          If god exists, why would he send idiots to speak on his behalf? Your god is other people. Your god is words they say that convince you there’s an imaginary place you’re going after you die. Why do you attribute ordinary occurrences and feelings to a supernatural entity? It’s not witnessing, it’s called the power of suggestion. You see what’s not there to fit in. Period.

        • MNb

          “When God calls someone, not even the most reticent atheist can resist.”
          My dear Susan, you don’t realize what you write here. I’m a reticent atheist. So according to you he never called me. So still according to you he is totally fine with me not worshipping him.
          Nobody is going to look for 40+ minutes to some silly video, so I visited his website. I found this:

          http://www.reasons.org/articles/darwins-problem-the-origin-of-language

          It’s one big god of the gaps: science can’t explain it, hence god. Well, here I have more such “evidence” for your god:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-temperature_superconductivity

          Apparently Ross’ god keeps himself busy lifting those magnets. Because science can’t explain.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Dr. Holly Ordway has published a book titled Not God’s Type, telling her personal story.

          https://humblesmith.wordpress.com/2013/02/03/atheist-professor-becomes-christian/

          “My college science classes presented Christians as illiterate anti-intellectuals who, because they didn’t embrace Darwinism, threatened the advancement of knowledge. My history classes omitted or downplayed references to historical figures’ faith.” Still later, “At thirty-one years old, I was an atheist college professor–and I delighted in thinking of myself that way. I got a kick out of being an unbeliever; it was fun to consider myself superior to the unenlightened, superstitious masses, and to make snide comments about Christians.” (p.15-16)”

        • Kodie

          Your problem is you only believe the testimony of believers. This is not a convincing argument. Not all Christians are illiterate anti-intellectuals who threaten the advancement of knowledge, but you are.

        • MNb

          I’m not very interested in personal stories. Assuming your quote is correct and your doctor is honest – something I can’t say anything sensible about – this

          “I got a kick out of being an unbeliever”
          is pathetic. I’ve been an unbeliever for almost 40 years now; I’ve never been baptized or belonged to any denomination, so you could even say I’ve been an unbeliever my entire life.. I never got a kick out of it and it certainly didn’t make me feel superior.
          Your doctor is a sad person – atheism is better off without her. If her conversion made her a better person, more power to her. It means nothing to me.

        • Greg G.

          Ordway has gone from atheist to Evangelical to Catholic and now teaches at Houston Baptist University. What beliefs will she reject next?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          My friend, I cannot know if GOD will reveal to you. What I know is that GOD can call someone in their last breath of life. Have never read the parable of the rebellious son?

          an extract of this:
          http://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/15.htm

          Please note: the “Father” represents GOD who is always Filled with love and compassion to their rebellious children.

          11To illustrate the point further, Jesus told them this story: “A man had two sons. 12The younger son told his father, ‘I want my share of your estate now before you die.’ So his father agreed to divide his wealth between his sons.

          13“A few days later this younger son packed all his belongings and moved to a distant land, and there he wasted all his money in wild living. 14About the time his money ran out, a great famine swept over the land, and he began to starve. 15He persuaded a local farmer to hire him, and the man sent him into his fields to feed the pigs. 16The young man became so hungry that even the pods he was feeding the pigs looked good to him. But no one gave him anything.

          17“When he finally came to his senses, he said to himself, ‘At home even the hired servants have food enough to spare, and here I am dying of hunger! 18I will go home to my father and say, “Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, 19and I am no longer worthy of being called your son. Please take me on as a hired servant.”’

          20“So he returned home to his father. And while he was still a long way off, his father saw him coming. Filled with love and compassion, he ran to his son, embraced him, and kissed him. 21His son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against both heaven and you, and I am no longer worthy of being called your son.b’

          22“But his father said to the servants, ‘Quick! Bring the finest robe in the house and put it on him. Get a ring for his finger and sandals for his feet. 23And kill the calf we have been fattening. We must celebrate with a feast, 24for this son of mine was dead and has now returned to life. He was lost, but now he is found.’ So the party began.

        • MNb

          “I cannot know if GOD will reveal to you”
          Well, thus far your hasn’t and according to your own argument this means he’s OK with me being an atheist. You have wasted a lot of time typing that Biblical story. I don’t care about it. It’s irrelevant. I haven’t read what you typed; while I’m familiar with the outlines it means nothing to me. My only reaction is shrug.

        • Greg G.

          That passage has the earmarks of being made up by Luke. The central section of Luke, basically chapters 10 through 18, come from Deuteronomy. This story comes from and expands Deuteronomy 21:15-22:4 [C.F. Evans, “The Central Section of St. Luke’s Gospel.” In D.E. Nineham (ed.), Studies in the Gospels: Essays in Memory of R.H. Lightfoot. Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1967].

          Another literary tendency that is peculiar to Luke is to have the protagonist talk to himself by stating the problem or by asking himself a question, then answering it with a plan of action. The Prodigal Son does it in your post in verses 17-19. The Rich Fool does it in Luke 12:17-19 and the Dishonest Steward does it in Luke 16:3-4.

          The secret to understanding the Bible is to skeptically say “yeah, right” at the end of every passage.

        • adam

          “What I know is that GOD can call someone in their last breath of life. ”

          “Because I do not know God ways.” says Susana

          So do you KNOW or NOT KNOW, and HOW to YOU tell the difference.

          Filled with love and compassion?

          However, you may purchase male or female slaves from
          among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of
          such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You
          may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent
          inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel,
          your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

          WOW, you have a warped and twisted view of ‘love’

        • Susana Gonzalez

          I know GOD commandments, love, grace and mercy. But the one who claims to know everything about GOD is yourself! You even dare to judge the LORD, by your own imperfect limited little mind. Job 21:22
          “Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?

        • adam

          LIKE YOU, I only know what YOUR ‘god’ writes in his book

          So YOU should know better than I WHY you cant teach knowledge of YOUR ‘god’

        • adam

          YOUR ‘god’s’ commanments

        • Dys

          The nice thing about the end-times predictions in the bible is that they’re so incredibly vague and non-specific that it allows for pretty much any event to be linked to them in some way.

          Which is why Christians have been predicting the imminent end of the world literally since the religion was founded. And they’ll continue to do so far into the future. They, along with everyone else, made fun of Harold Camping, but their only real disagreement was that he put a date to his ramblings.

          By now LEARN what FAITH does to people.

          If we go by your example, it makes them irrational conspiracy theorists.

        • MNb

          “God knows how to bring a wicked nation to its kneels”
          Then god is totally OK with abortion and same gender marriage, as the period you talk about here

          “AS close as 5 years , USA your country will collapse”

          has gone for several years since European countries introduced them. The Netherlands for instance legalized abortion in 1981 and same gender marriage in 2001. You say the economic crisis was divine punishment? Well, then your god has become a softie, because even at its worst moment it wasn’t as bad as in the 80’s. That was punishment for legalizing abortion you say? Well, that crisis was by far not as bad as the one in the 30’s.

          http://talenexpo.nl/kp_userfiles/image/large/311_crisis_jaren_30.jpg

          “Who can get me a job, no matter what”
          This didn’t occur during the last few crises.
          You’re just a christian scaremonger addicted to apocalyptic prophecies, so these facts are probably wasted on you.

        • Greg G.

          …AS close as 5 years , USA your country will collapse…

          Christians were predicting that evolution would be overturned within 15 years in the mid-1970s. A Christian told me the same thing in the mid-1990s. (Of course when I asked him about that 15 years later, he denied having made the claim.) Christians were predicting the overturning of gradualism in geology within 15 years back in the 1820s, nearly 200 years ago. But then Christians have been calling for the return of Christ any minute now for nearly 2000 years.

          Nothing gives me more confidence in the stability of the USA than a Christian predicting its demise in the near future.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “Christians have been calling for the return of Christ any minute now for nearly 2000 years.” I am glad that you remember this. So in the judgement day , you will have to explain to the LORD why you did not pay attention, to a preaching (of redemption and salvation) that lasted 2000 years,..

        • Kodie

          I’m glad you’re still vigilant, so you can waste your life waiting for something that’s never going to happen.

        • Greg G.

          Are you not worried that you will be taken to task for not following a religion that is even older? They all can’t be true. It is obvious that false religions can last a long, long time. Too bad they all rely on excuses for their lack of evidence.

        • MNb

          I have paid attention – at the other hand I have a few questions for your god, similar to Stephen Fry:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-d4otHE-YI

        • adam

          Well, I will explain that LYING for thousands of years SHOULD be enough to convince EVERYONE that the story of Christ’s return is a FABRICATED LIE invented to trap people into SUBMISSION to a POLITICAL AUTHORITY.

        • SparklingMoon,

          LYING for thousands of years SHOULD be enough to convince EVERYONE that the story of Christ’s return is a FABRICATED LIE invented to trap people into SUBMISSION to a POLITICAL AUTHORITY.
          ———————————————-
          It is one of the Divine mysteries that when the law which is brought by a Prophet or by a Messenger is corrupted after his death, his true teaching and guidance are perverted and absurdities are attributed to him, and all this misguidance is attributed to the Prophet himself, the soul of that Prophet is greatly moved for the removal of all the corruption and calumnies that are attributed to him, and then his soul demands that a substitute of his should appear on earth.

          The soul of Jesus (peace be upon him) had two occasions to demand a substitute. The first was six hundred years after his death. This was when the Jews insisted more than ever that he was an impostor and a liar and that his birth was illegitimate and that is why he died on the cross. While the Christians on the other hand proclaimed that he was the son of God and even God himself, and that he had laid down his life on the cross for the salvation of mankind. Thereupon the Holy Prophet of Islam (peace be upon him) was raised, one of the many purposes of whose advent was to clear Jesus of all the false charges made against him and to bear witness on his behalf. Jesus is reported to have said in John chapter 16: ‘when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth … He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you….’

          (Quran 4:172-173): ”People Of the Book! exceed not the bounds in the matter of your religion, and say not of God anything but the truth. Indeed, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was but a Messenger Of God and the fulfilment of glad tidings which he conveyed to Mary and a mercy for Him. So believe in God and His Messengers and say not: There are three gods. Desist, it will be the better for you. Indeed, God is only One God. His Holiness brooks not that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. Sufficient is God as a Guardian. Surely, the Messiah would never disdain to be accounted a servant of God, nor would the angels who are close to God. Those who disdain to worship Him and consider themselves above it will He gather all together berore Himself.

          The second time when the soul of Jesus (Peace be upon him) was agitated was when the Christians completely assumed the qualities of Antichrist, and, as predicted, the Antichrist was to lay claim to both Prophethood and Godhood, this is exactly what these people did. They claimed Prophethood by interfering with the Divine word and framing regulations and carrying out changes that were the functions of a Prophet. They established what they wished, and invented doctrines and modes of worship and intervened so freely as if they had been commanded to do so by Divine revelation. Such unwarranted interference with Divine scriptures amount to claiming Prophethood.

          And they claimed Godhead in the sense that their philosophers and thinkers designed to assume all the functions of Godhead. Their plans testify to their intents …. They believe that Divine decree has no meaning, and assert that it is only the failure of a project by some mistake which is taken to as Divine decree. They think that whatever is attributed to God Almighty is because previously the natural causation of everything had not been discovered and man’s extreme frustration was named God or God’s decree. According to them, when the system of physical causation is completely understood these ‘false’ notions would automatically disappear….

          Thus in this age the soul of Jesus was agitated a second time and longed for his substitute to appear in the world. When this desire reached its climax, God Almighty raised one who was his spiritual reflection to defeat the Antichrist of this age. That substitute is called the Promised Messiah, inasmuch as the reality of the Messiah is incarnated in him, i.e., the reality of the Messiah was united with him and he appeared in consequence of the demand of the soul of Jesus (as). That reality is reflected in him like a reflection in a mirror. (Ruhanikhazain)

        • adam

          So you have a competing FABRICATED LIE invented to trap people into SUBMISSION to a POLITICAL AUTHORITY., so what?

        • SparklingMoon,

          So you have a competing FABRICATED LIE invented to trap people into SUBMISSION to a POLITICAL AUTHORITY.
          ————————————————-
          Religion has no need to trap people into SUBMISSION to a POLITICAL AUTHORITY as its only purpose is to improve moral and spiritual condition of mankind. When we reflect upon the Holy Word of God, we find that in its teachings it seeks to reform the natural conditions of man and to raise him step by step to higher spiritual levels. In the first place God desires to teach man the elementary rules of behaviour and culture and thus to change him from the wild condition of animals, and then to bestow upon him elementary moral conditions which can be described as culture or civilization. Then He trains him and raises him from the elementary moral conditions to a high moral stage. All this is in truth one stage, which is the reform of natural conditions, and the only difference is one of degree.

        • adam

          “Religion has no need to trap people into SUBMISSION to a POLITICAL AUTHORITY as its only purpose is to improve moral and spiritual condition of mankind.”

          What is moral about slavery, beheading and stoning people to death because an old book says it is what should be done?

          Religion is POWERLESS unless it traps people into submission to a political authority.

        • SparklingMoon,

          Religion is POWERLESS unless it traps people into submission to a political authority.
          ———————————————
          The revelation of the Quran points out very clearly why a cursory glance at history can lead one to such a conclusion. It cites the past to show that those who perpetuate brutality in religion’s name are either anti-religious or people whose religion has been corrupted. There are also religious leaders who have no warmth, compassion, mercy or piety. To be honest, they are hypocrites with a lust for power cruelty is their ruling passion. It would be a great mistake to associate religion with the misdeeds of such men. The real truth is that God—the Fountainhead of Mercy does not allow the followers of any religion to oppress His people.

          For Example the Prophet of Islam (sa) did not appear in the land of Arabia in the capacity of a monarch. It therefore cannot be suspected that he had royal majesty and power with him, such that the people gathered under his banner for fear of their lives. Now the question one faces is simply this: When he waged his lone spiritual battle for the pronouncement of God’s Unity and for the establishment of the truth of his ministry in a state of utter helplessness and poverty, then where was that sword which struck terror in their hearts, and coerced the meek into submission? And had they refused to believe or had they persisted in their rejection of him, from which king did he beg for a contingent army to be sent to his aid so that they may be forced to yield?

          The Prophet of Islam (sa) graced the world with his presence at a time when it was steeped in darkness and was in dire need of a great reformer, and he did not die before hundreds of thousands of people had abandoned Shirk and idol-worship and had adopted Tauhid and the right path. None but the Holy Prophet (sa) could have brought about this great reformation. He taught human values to a people who were savages and brutes. In other words, he transformed brutes into men, men into civilized men, and civilized men into godly men. He infused spiritual qualities into them and established their communion with the True God. In His path they were slaughtered like goats and trampled underfoot like ants, but they held fast to their faith and kept marching forward in the face of every hardship.

          It was through him that all human virtues reached their perfection, all the forces for good became active in their respective spheres, and no branch of human nature was left fruitless.The finality of Prophethood in his person consists not only in his being last but also in the fact that all the perfections of Prophethood culminated in him. Since he was the perfect manifestation of Divine attributes, the Law he brought contained the qualities of glory as well as of beauty. His twin names, Muhammad and Ahmadsa, symbolize the same reality. His universal Prophethood does not partake of any parsimony, but was from the very beginning meant for the entire world. (Ruhani Khazain)

        • Does (sa) = “peace be upon him”? I’ve seen that expressed as SAW or SAAW. Is SA another variant of that?

        • SparklingMoon,

          Yes, It (sa) is for Arabic Word ‘Salalaho Aleihe’ Peace be upon him.

          Or these words Salallaho Aleihe Wasalm (saw) peace and honour be upon him.

          Or Salalaho Aleihe Wa-alehi Wasalam (saaw) Peace and honour be upon him and his followers.

        • adam

          So I understand this is just about what the Mormons claim for their ‘faith’ as well.

          And their revelation from ‘god’ is newer and supercedes yours…

        • MNb

          “LYING for thousands of years SHOULD be enough to convince EVERYONE …..”
          The same for the nonsense you produce on this blog.

        • SparklingMoon,

          By now LEARN what FAITH does to people.
          —————————————————–
          The true purpose of adopting a faith is that one should acquire such certainty concerning God, Who is the fountainhead of salvation, as if one can see Him with one’s eyes. The wicked spirit of sin seeks to destroy a man and a person cannot escape the fatal poison of sin till he believes with full certainty in the Perfect and Living God and till he knows for certain that God exists, Who punishes the offender and bestows upon the righteous everlasting joy. It is a common experience that when one believes in the fatal effects of anything one does not have recourse to it. For instance, no one swallows poison consciously. No one deliberately stands in front of a wild tiger. No one deliberately thrusts his hand into the hole of a serpent. Then why does a person commit sin deliberately? The reason is that he has not that certainty in this matter as he has in other matters of the kind that we have mentioned. The first duty of a person, therefore, is to acquire certainty with regard to the existence of God, and to adopt a religion through which this certainty can be acquired so that he should fear God and shun sin. How can such certainty be acquired? It cannot be acquired through mere stories. It cannot be acquired through mere arguments. The only way of acquiring certainty is to experience God repeatedly through converse with Him or through witnessing His extraordinary signs, or by keeping company with someone who has that experience. (Ruhanikhazain)

    • Rudy R

      Everything you quoted is either factually not true or you’re drawing the wrong conclusions. Instead of turning to the Bible to quell your fears, I recommend you read more current and relevant scientific books than the one that wasn’t written 2000 years ago.

    • SparklingMoon,

      People needs FAITH. Christian Faith will never never go away.
      —————————————————————————–
      The purpose of religion is that man should obtain deliverance from his passions and should develop personal love for God Almighty through certain faith in His existence and His perfect attributes. Such love of God is the paradise, which will appear in diverse shapes in the hereafter. To be unaware of the True God, to keep away from Him, and not to have any love for Him, is the hell which will appear in diverse shapes in the hereafter. Thus, the true purpose is to have full faith in Him. Now the question is which religion and which book can fulfil this need. The Bible tells us that the door of converse with God is closed and that the ways of obtaining certainty are sealed. Whatever was to happen, happened in the past and there is nothing in the future….. Of what use then is a religion? (Ruhanikhazain)

      • MNb

        “People needs FAITH.”
        Perhaps you do. I’m better off without.

        “To be unaware of the True God”
        So you are aware of the False God(s)? Please tell us more.

        “Of what use then is a religion that is dead? What benefit can we derive from a book that is dead? What grace can be bestowed by a god who is dead?”
        All the more reason to leave that silliness behind us.

      • Susana Gonzalez

        Faith only, will not save you. Deeds will not save you. IS THE GRACE of GOD who will save you. Romans 9:16
        http://biblehub.com/nlt/romans/9.htm
        16So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

        • Jesus surprisingly has some good advice in the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. Read it. No faith required, just works.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Trying to justify yourself? is obvious you do not understand about those who will be judged by faith, deeds or both.

          http://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-8.htm
          8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;** 9not as a result of works**, so that no one may boast.…

          Sorry to tell you, if you think you can “make it’ with your deeds. The ones who will be judged by deeds are the ones who never heard of JESUS. But because you heard about HIM, yet you reject HIM, you are already judged.http://biblehub.com/john/3-18.htm

        • You do know that baby Jesus cries when he sees you dancing away from the argument, right?

          Parable of the sheep and the goats. No faith required. QED.

        • Greg G.

          So Jesus says one thing and Paul says something else. Then there is James’ opinion.

          James 2:14-17, 24 (NRSV)
          14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters,[a] if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

          You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

          I’m glad I’m not worried about making it to heaven by following the Bible.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Deeds are the result of a faith. You do good deeds because this is how decent human beings behave.

        • Faith is unnecessary–parable of the sheep and the goats, remember? Jesus said it, which kinda shuts down your argument to the contrary.

        • Greg G.

          I do good deeds because I like to do good deeds, not because of faith. Remember the Good Samaritan? One does things because they are the right thing to do. Doing things because you think God wants you to do them can lead you to do bad things. Remember what happened to the Amalekites and Canaanites?

        • MR

          People do good deeds all the time that have nothing to do with faith.

        • Kodie

          You are not a decent human being if you think there’s a good context for god giving instructions for how to treat your human property. He was giving instructions for how to treat your labor animals, which is what slaves are, without mistreating them so much they couldn’t function anymore. Anything you think is a good deed that you do is probably not a good deed, because your sense of what a good deed is damaged by belief in god.

        • SparklingMoon,

          Faith only, will not save you. Deeds will not save you. IS THE GRACE of GOD who will save you.
          ——————————————————————–
          God Almighty has two attributes as He is Gracious ( Rahman )and also Merciful (Raheem). ‘Grace’ has been eternally manifested without being the result of any action on the part of anyone. For instance, heaven and earth, the sun, moon and planets, water, fire and air, and all the particles of the universe which were created for our comfort, and all those things that were needed by us, were provided before our coming into being. All this was done when we were not even present. No action had proceeded from us. Who can say that the sun was created on account of some action of his, or that the earth was created in consequence of some good action of his?

          The second attribute ‘ Mercy’ of God Almighty comes into operation in consequence of human actions and works for those only who use the blessings of Grace on their proper place. For example a person who uses the blessing of sight can safe oneself to fell in a coming hole in his path and a person who does not use this blessing and does not try to safe oneself willingly, must have to fell in the hole and no grace will safe him. A seed has ability to turn into a tree but this seed on a table will never turn into a tree even in hundred years and it will bring no fruits. A person have to follow the laws of God Almighty and have to sow it in a soil to get its hidden fruits.

          It the same way human deeds in the practice of God ‘s laws are also important to have heavenly fruits. If Grace is the only thing for salvation then Why does God Almighty always send prophets and His laws to practice. Mirza Gulam Ahmad has written: ”When on a bright day you open all the windows of your room, the light of the sun will enter your room under a natural law, but if you keep your windows shut, the light will not come in merely by virtue of a tale or story. To obtain light you will have to get up and open your windows and then light will enter and will illumine your room. Do not expect that any other design can purify the human ego. As darkness can be dispelled only by light, in the same way, the remedy for the darkness of sin are the Divine reflections in word and action which in a miraculous way descend upon a good heart from God with fierce rays, and show him that God exists and remove the foulness of all doubts and bring satisfaction and contentment. By the strong attraction of his heavenly power that good person is raised to heaven. All other remedies that are put forward are fakes and useless.

        • adam

          “Faith only, will not save you. Deeds will not save you. IS THE GRACE of GOD who will save you.”

          But you’ve FAILED to demonstrate that this ‘god’ of YOURS is anything but IMAGINARY…

          Here is a quote from another book of IMAGINARY characters:

        • “Book of imaginary characters”? Can I bring up wisdom from Saturday morning cartoons?

        • adam

          Of course, just as valid.

          And probably doesnt have all that ‘kill those who…..’ clauses.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          ” If Grace is the only thing for salvation then Why does God Almighty always send prophets and His laws to practice”

          Indeed God SENT the biggest prophet of all time!
          HIS MESSIAH, God in flesh, to whom,Christians can have an assurance of salvation only if you believe in HIS words.

          John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

          Do you practice JESUS teachings and LAw?

        • SparklingMoon,

          HIS MESSIAH, God in flesh, to whom,Christians can have an assurance of salvation only if you believe in HIS words.
          ——————————————————————-
          The Christian doctrine that God, out of His love for the world and in order to bring salvation to mankind, transferred the sins of disobedient, disbelieving and wicked people to His beloved son Jesus and made him accursed and caused him to be hanged on the cross to deliver the world from sin, is completely wrong

          If weighed on the scales of justice, the act of imputing the sin of one man to another is unjust and human conscience can never accept that a criminal should be allowed to go free while an innocent person is punished for his crimes.

          This doctrine is again falsified when we consider the reality of sin from the viewpoint of spiritual philosophy. The fact is that sin is a poison that is born when man does not obey God, does not love Him fervently and does not remember Him with love. A person whose heart has become estranged from God’s love is like a tree which, having been uprooted from the soil and, therefore, being unable to absorb water, withers with each passing day and soon loses all its verdure.Sin devastates man just as dryness kills a tree.

          Divine law has prescribed three remedies for this condition: Firstly, love; Secondly, desire not to expose. As long as a tree’s roots remained covered by the earth, it has every chance of remaining green; Thirdly, repentance, i.e.,(turning to God in all humility to absorb the water of life) to attain nearness to Him and to be released from the darkness of sin through righteous deeds.

          Verbal repentance is not enough; true repentance must be accompanied by good deeds which bring one nearer to God. Prayer, too, is a form of repentance because through it we seek nearness to God. This is why when God breathed life into man He called it Ruh, for his true happiness and peace lies in acknowledging and loving God and submitting to Him. He has also called it Nafs for it seeks union with God.

          He who loves God is like a tree firmly rooted in the soil. This is man’s ultimate bliss. Just as a tree sucks and absorbs water from the earth, and expels harmful substances through it, when a person’s heart is nourished by the water of Divine love, it is easily able to get rid of all poisonous influences. Having immersed itself in God it continues to receive pure nourishment that causes it to grow and flourish and bear good fruit. But those who do not have their roots in God cannot absorb this nourishing water. They become drier with every passing moment and all their leaves fall off leaving behind bare and unsightly branches.

          Since the aridity of sin results from estrangement, the obvious remedy is the establishment of a firm relationship with God, as the law of nature itself testifies. Referring to this, God, the Glorious, says in the Quran: ” O soul that is at peace with God! Return to thy Lord. He is well-pleased with thee and thou are well-pleased with Him. So enter thou among My chosen servants, and enter thou My garden.” (Ruhanikhazain))

        • Susana Gonzalez

          ” If Grace is the only thing for salvation then Why does God Almighty always send prophets and His laws to practice”

          You still have not explained why YOU DO NOT practice Lord JESUS teachings and LAW.

        • Kodie

          Because SparklingMoon was indoctrinated in a conflicting religious belief from Christianity. Jesus is a character in that story, but has a different outcome and is not the savior. That’s what people are taught, then they believe. You were taught something else, and you are confused how someone can believe something different. How isolated and ignorant you are of other beliefs. I thought you said you did read the Qur’an!

        • Susana Gonzalez

          I am not confused of ISLAM believing the way they do. Their main belief was foretold in the BIBLE.

        • MNb

          You still have not explained why YOU DO NOT practice the teachings of the Buddha, Confucius or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
          Answer that one and you might understand why Sparkling Moon doesn’t practice christian teachings and why we atheists don’t practice any religious teachings.

        • SparklingMoon,

          why YOU DO NOT practice Lord JESUS teachings and LAW.
          —————————————————
          I believe and practice fully that is told by beloved Jesus in his teachings. I believe that Jesus was a divine messenger of God Almighty as he always referred to himself as having been sent by God, for instance: ” This is Eternal Life: to know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”(John 17:3) ”I can of my own self do nothing, as I hear I judge and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which has sent me (John 5:30) And the Father Himself, which has sent me, has borne witness of me.” (John 5:37)

          In fact, his function as a messenger of God was defined even before his birth by Divine direction as set out both in the Gospel and in the Holy Quran. The angel that appeared to Mary and told her that she would bear a son whom she should name Jesus also informed her that God will give him the throne of his father David, and he shall reign over the house of Jacob (Luke1:32-33). The revelation of the Quran (3:49-50) also affirms that Mary was told that God would teach Jesus the book and the wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel and would make him a messenger to the children of Israel (3:49-50).

          Jesus (as) never claimed like prophet of Islam(sa) that he was sent for all people or had a universal Law for whole mankind. The ministry of Jesus as a prophet was confined to the children of Israe according to his own wordsl. He was the heir to the throne of David and was to reign over the house of Jacob. (Luke 1:32-33) Jesus had told:” I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 15:22-28) He clearly directed his disciples to that effect, as would appear from: These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:5-6)

          ‘Christianity guided to the same God as did the Torah. But, after the Messiah (as) as, the god of Christians was transformed into another god who was nowhere mentioned in the original teachings of the Torah, nor did the Israelites have any inkling of such a god. Belief in this new god disturbed the entire dynamics of the Torah,and its teachings regarding deliverance from sin and attainment of piety and purity became corrupted. Deliverance from sin came to depend simply upon the belief that the Messiah (as) had courted death by crucifixion for the salvation of mankind and that he was ‘God’ himself. Many other timeless commandments of the Torah were also violated and the Christian faith underwent such a change that even if the Messiah(as) himself were to return, he would fail to recognize it. It is most astonishing that the people who had been enjoined to follow the Torah, so brazenly flouted its commandments. For instance, it is nowhere written in the Gospels that though the eating of pork was made unlawful in the Torah, yet I [the Messiah] make it lawful for you; or that though the Torah prescribes circumcision, I repeal this commandment.

          Dear Susana! I appreciate and respect your great love for Jesus but this great love of Jesus (as) demands to turn to his religion. The religion which is championed as ‘Christianity’ is, in fact, the religion of Paul and not that of Christ, for the latter never taught the doctrine of the Trinity. As long as he lived, he only taught the Oneness of God and His being without partner. After he died, his James — who was his successor and a holy man — also taught the Oneness of God. But Paul unjustly opposed him and started preaching contrary to his true teachings, and went to the extent of creating a new faith. (Ruhani khazain)

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “In fact, his function as a messenger of God was defined even before his birth by Divine direction as set out both in the Gospel and in the Holy Quran”

          My friend the GOSPEL did not exist before JESUS. You are confused here. The GOSPEL is a declaration of the Christian FAITH.
          *******************************
          “the god of Christians was transformed into another god who was nowhere mentioned in the original teachings of the Torah, nor did the Israelites have any inkling of such a god.’

          Wrong again. The Hebrew scriptures foretold of JESUS:

          “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
          http://bibliaparalela.com/isaiah/9-6.htm

          HEBREW PROPHECIES FORETOLD THE MESSIAH AS MIGHTY GOD. The latest copy of the book of Isaiah dates from 2200 years ago.
          ******************************************************
          “Jesus (as) never claimed like prophet of Islam(sa) that he was sent for all people or had a universal Law for whole mankind.”

          Read this:

          http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/matthew/28.htm

          18And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, **All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. 19Go ye therefore, and make disciples of

          ***all the nations, **

          baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost: 20teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

          1- JESUS has all authority in heaven and earth
          2- Jesus SENT to make disciples of ALL NATIONS
          3- JESUS instructed to teach, to baptize nto the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost
          4- Jesus promised to be with us until the end of the world.
          ******************************************************

          “ut Paul unjustly opposed him and started preaching contrary to his true teachings, and went to the extent of creating a new faith.’

          Paul received knowledge from Lord JESUS:
          http://bibliaparalela.com/acts/20-24.htm

          BUT I hold not my life of any account, as dear unto myself, so that I may accomplish my course, and the ministry which I received from the** Lord Jesus**, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

          There is nothing new in Paul teachings. HE confirmed to gentiles what JESUS taught. I can easily remove his books from this debate and still sustain my Christian Faith.

          And finally, why JESUS sent his disciples to ISRAEL only? is clear this happened while JESUS Was alive. AS we read already, when JESUS died, resurrected and before to ascend to the heavens as the quran confirms, JESUS gave a new commandment:

          19Go ye therefore, and make disciples of ***all the nations, **

          But the first disciples, had to be JEWS, ISRAELIS. First Christians were simply Israelis. You know.. GOD fearing people, believers , The GOSPEL HAD To be though through believers.

          God never made prophets from pagan people. ISRAEL Was chosen to carry the oracle of GOD. as QURAN STATES:

          Sahih International
          And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and placed in his descendants ***prophethood and scripture***. And We gave him his reward in this world, and indeed, he is in the Hereafter among the righteous.

          http://quran.com/29/27

          This simply quran verse, destroy Muhammad pretended prophethood and revelation.

          http://bibliaparalela.com/ezekiel/38-17.htm

          Thus saith the Lord GOD: Art thou he of whom I spake in old time by my servants the **prophets of Israel,** which prophesied in those days for many years that I would bring thee against them?

          Muhammad people were pagan. He was a pagan who used to bow idols. is simply blasphemous to pretend that GOD in HIS HOLINESS could chose someone as the islamic prophet. That contradicts your own quran.

          Peace on you.

        • SparklingMoon,

          There is nothing new in Paul teachings. HE confirmed to gentiles what JESUS taught.
          ————————————————————————-
          Jesus (as) was a humble and selfless person who did not even want to be called ‘good’; but Paul made him ‘God’. It is written in the Gospels that someone said to Jesus “O Good Master!”, but he said, “Why callest thou me good?” And how wonderfully do the words which he uttered at the time of the crucifixion testify to his belief in the Oneness of God. With the utmost humility, he had cried, Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani?, “My God! My God! Why hast Thou forsaken me?” Can any reasonable person believe that he who supplicated to God with such humility, and considered Him to be the Lord and Master, could himself have claimed to be God?

          The truth is that those who have a relationship of personal love with God are often made to use some metaphoric expressions regarding themselves which ignorant people use to prove their divinity. Jesus’as brother James, son of Mary (as), was a righteous man. He followed the Torah in everything, believed God to be One without any partner, considered the flesh of swine to be unlawful, faced the Holy Temple while praying— as was the custom of the Jews —and considered himself a Jew in everything, with the exception of his belief in the Prophethood of Jesus (as). Paul, on the other hand, turned people against the Holy Temple. (Ruhanikhazain)

        • SparklingMoon,

          Paul received knowledge from Lord JESUS:
          ————————————————————————-
          It is worth noting that as long as Jesus (as) lived, Paul was his sworn enemy, and, according to Jewish chronicles, he only turned to Christianity after Jesus’ death because he had some selfish desires which the Jews did not fulfill. Therefore, in order to avenge himself, he became a Christian and pretended that Jesus (as) had appeared to him in a vision.

          If Paul was indeed meant to appear as an Apostle after the Messiah, the latter should have foretold something about him. This was necessary because Paul had bitterly opposed Jesus (as) throughout his life, and had contrived to harm him in every way. How could such a person betrusted after Jesus’ death, unless he himself made a clear prophecy that, although Paul has been my bitter enemy and has done me great harm, he will become an Apostle and a holy man after I am gone.

          This was all the more important because Paul gave a teaching that was against the Torah, and declared eating the flesh of swine to be lawful, and even abolished the Divine commandment regarding circumcision, although it had been greatly stressed in the Torah and all Prophets—including the Messiah himself— had been circumcised. He also replaced the teachings of the Torah regarding the Oneness of God with the teaching of the Trinity,and declared it unnecessary to follow the commandments of the Torah, and turned away from the Holy Temple. It was, therefore, essential that some prophecy should have been made regarding this person who played such havoc with the Mosaic Law. But in the absence of any such prophecy in the Gospel, and in view of his hostility towards Jesus (as) and his opposition to the timeless commandments of the Torah, is there any reason at all why he should be accepted as a sage?(Ruhanikhazain)

        • Susana Gonzalez

          I know how muslims dislike Paul. The reason is that you do not know him nor his ministry. Paul was a JEW born in Rome. HE was from the Tribe of Benjamin, ISRAELI and descendant of the lineage of prophets (Remember quran 29:27 “And We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and We established the prophethood and the Scripture among his seed,”)

          So the fact Paul is a descendant of Jacob, he is QUALIFIED to be a prophet. PERIOD. Let us remember, that the prophet of ISLAM was not Jacob descendant, so in this case PAUL Was in MUCH better position than Muhammad to carry a prophethood.

          Paul was a Jewish SCHOLAR. Highly respected who in his jalousie of worshiping GOD, persecuted the first Christians thinking he was doing right (as is happening with muslims when they murder Christians, they think they do right.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxghxoA7YJw )

          AS we ALREADY LEARNT the apostles WENT TO REACH the TRIBES of ISRAEL as mandated by Lord Jesus. According to historian Flavio Josephus, the lost Tribes expanded in EUROPE, the apostles reached EUROPE and England, through the Holy Spirit they were able to speak perfectly many languages so the message could reach as many Jacob’s descendants to the most distant parts of the earth, as we have been doing since.

          *********************************************************************

          “This was necessary because Paul had bitterly opposed Jesus (as) throughout his life, and had contrived to harm him in every way. How could such a person betrusted after Jesus’ death, unless he himself made a clear prophecy that, although Paul has been my bitter enemy and has done me great harm, he will become an Apostle and a holy man after I am gone.”

          God had assigned Paul to go to the GENTILES. HE is called the “apostle of the gentiles”. Because of this roman nationality he could travel freely through the roman empire. Paul was converted miraculously (because GOD can convert the most evil and atheist person to HIS CAUSE)
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-L1KIU7lao

          .So Why GOD Would choose his bitter ENEMY? my friend.. WE all were enemies of GOD. Is not the way you see, but the way GOD sees the things. Paul suffered a martyrdom and he died for Lord Jesus. He was faithful until his death and founded all churches in North Africa, Asia and Greece.

          Paul declared:

          1 Corinthians 15:3 “3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what*** I also received,** that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,”

          ******************************************************************************
          “If Paul was indeed meant to appear as an Apostle after the Messiah, the latter should have foretold something about him.”

          Apostle Peter confirmed Paul letters:
          http://biblehub.com/2_peter/3-15.htm
          Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our **dear brother Paul **also wrote you with the wisdom that **God gave him.**

          Is clear that the apostles knew about Paul ministry and they acknowledged the Wisdom and teachings of PAUL came from GOD. A prophet confirming another prophet, this is a biblical rule for someone who claim to be a **prophet**.

          For your records, nobody confirmed the prophethood of muhammad. Why not?

          Second. Prophets are able to do miracles. Paul healed many people and even resurrected a teenager the same kind of miracles as the apostles.

          http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/acts/20.htm
          . 9And there sat in the window a certain young man named Eutychus, borne down with deep sleep; and as Paul discoursed yet longer, being borne down by his sleep he fell down from the third story, and was taken up dead. 10And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Make ye no ado; for his life is in him. 11And when he was gone up, and had broken the bread, and eaten, and had talked with them a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. 12And they brought the lad alive, and were not a little comforted

          Paul performed this miracle by the power of GOD.

          *************************************************************************

          “He also replaced the teachings of the Torah regarding the Oneness of God with the teaching of the Trinity,and declared it unnecessary to follow the commandments of the Torah, and turned away from the Holy Temple.”

          The Holy Trinity is implied in the old testament. This is not a new theology, nor from the apostles. I can prove Trinity through the Taknah and TORAH, the Hebrew bible. AS I did prove you already God making himself a human in the TORAH, Trinity is there in the old testament. Never read this text in plural?

          http://biblehub.com/nlt/genesis/1.htm
          26Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us**.

          IS not plural majestic. IS plural PERIOD.

          Trinity is confirmed by apostle John before Paul conversion.

          http://biblehub.com/nlt/john/1.htm

          1In the beginning the Word already existed.

          The Word was with God,

          and the Word was God.

          2He existed in the beginning with God.

          3God created everything through him,

          and nothing was created except through him.

          4The Word gave life to everything that was created,a

          and his life brought light to everyone.

          5The light shines in the darkness,

          and the darkness can never extinguish it

          AMEN to that.

          The TORAH Was intended to JEWs YOU SAID THAT, AND i AGREE.

          Lord Jesus did not keep the TORAH but JESUS FULFILLED THE PROPHECIES OF THE TORAH REGARDING TO HIM. The TORAH was a burden of laws that nobody could kept. But the TORAH exposes the sin, to make humans to be perfectly aware of what is wrong and good. When JESUS CAME, JESUS fulfilled the new COVENANT. The old Covenant with the TORAH and ancient ISRAEL had His mission accomplished. The MESIAH being born among a holy people. and so He was.

          http://biblehub.com/jeremiah/31-31.htm

          REsume: Paul did not bring new theology. Their writings are confirmed by the apostles John, Mark, Luke, Peter, Mathew, Marc. Remember that is not Paul, nor the apostles who brings theology or knowledge. Is the Holy Spirit who does.

          http://biblehub.com/luke/12-12.htm
          for the Holy Spirit will teach you* in that very hour what you ought to say.”

          AMEN

        • Greg G.

          Acts says Paul was a Roman citizen but that dozen mean he was from Rome. Acts also calls him “Saul of Tarsus”, if i recall correctly.

        • adam

          …..

        • SparklingMoon,

          “Jesus (as) never claimed like prophet of Islam(sa) that he was sent for all people or had a universal Law for whole mankind.” Read this: http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/… 18And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, **All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth. 19Go ye therefore, and make disciples of ***all the nations, **
          ————————————————————————–
          Religion has a twofold purpose : (i) it enables man to meet his Creator ; and (ii) it teaches him his duty towards his fellow-men. All religions existing before the advent of Islam were not only different according to the demand of their needs and their teachings were confined to their own people. The Bible talked not of a universal God like the Quran , but of the God of Israel.

          Mosaic Law was revealed for twelve tribes of Israel. We read in it again and again in the Old testament that : And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me (I Samuel 25 : 32). And also thus said the king, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, which hath given one to sit on my throne this day, mine eyes even seeing it (I Kings I : 48). Blessed be the Lord God of Israel for ever and ever. And all the people said, Amen, and praised the Lord (I Chronicles16 : 36).

          And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, who hath
          with his hands fulfilled that which he spake with his mouth to my father David, saying . . . (II Chronicles 6 : 4). “God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things” (Psalms 72 : 18).

          Jesus was a follower of Mosaic Law and his ministry was confined to the people of Israel.Jesus says : ”Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled (Matthew 5 : 17 -18).

          Christian missionaries have gone to all parts of the world, but Jesus himself had no such plan. The question is not what Christian believers are trying to do. The question is, what was the intention of Jesus himself ? What was the design of God Who sent Jesus? This nobody can express better than Jesus himself and Jesus said clearly : “I am not sent hut unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15 : 24). “For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost” (Matthew IS : I I).

          The teaching of Jesus, therefore, is only for twelve tribes of Israel, not for others. It is said that Jesus exhorted his followers to go to other people :

          ”Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Matthew 28 : 19).
          But to argue from this that Jesus had commanded his followers to take his Message to peoples other than Israel is not correct. It means only this that the followers of Jesus were commanded by him to preach his Message to all the tribes of Israel and not to all nations and peoples as such. Jesus speaks in clear terms: ”Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). “I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 15 : 24). “It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs” (Matthew 15 : 26). The twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not : but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel ” (Matthew 10 : 5-6).

          The Christians who are followers of Trinity are acting against the teaching of Jesus. The apostles also regard it as incorrect to preach the Gospel to non-Israelites. Thus we read : ”Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen traveled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.” (Acts I I : 19). Similarly, when the apostles heard that Peter in one place had preached the Gospel to non-Israelites, they were annoyed : ”And when Peter was come to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, saying, Thou wentest into men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.” (Acts I I : 2-3).

          Before the Holy Prophet of Islam (sa), therefore, nobody addressed a Message to the whole of mankind; before the Quran, no book addressed itself to the whole of humanity. It is the Holy Prophet who declared : “Say, O’mankind ! truly I am a Messenger to you all from Allah” (7 : 159). The revelation of the Quran, therefore, was meant to remove those differences and divisions which had come to pass between religion and religion and people and people,

          Secondly, Jesus had warned the apostles: Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you (Matt. 7 : 6). Jesus had told in these words his followers that if his teachings would be given to non Israelites people then his followers ( Israelites of his time ) had to face persecution of those people who had no value of true teachings of God. The same happened according to the prophecy of Jesus non Israelites had persecuted the followers of true teachings of Jesus (as) and had destroy his whole divine message. The people who are followers of Trinity are actually followers of Paul as teachings of Jesus were according to Mosaic Law.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Muslims and atheists alike are expert in cherry picking bible verses to fit their own self-doctrine.
          When using this method, you will always end with false doctrine.
          There are some topics to clarify:
          1- The TORAH
          2- God for ISRAEL or for the whole world?
          3- JESUS came for ISRAEL or for the whole world?
          4- How Lord Jesus fulfilled the TORAH.
          I choose these topics because somehow are related from what atheists are discussing in this Forum.
          1- The TORAH
          At least you understand the TORAH was meant for ISRAEL only, in a time and context, that most of the TORAH doesnot apply today in modern Judaism
          (such animal sacrifices and corporal punishments) and MOST IMPORTANT: The Torah was not intended for Christians or muslims.
          Your self-explanations also debunk what the author of this article wrote: “that ISIS muslims are following the bible regarding slavery”.

          Which is completely false, as ISIS slavery (or muslim slavery) is the act of kidnap a human being and sell the people for a profit.
          http://beforeitsnews.com/science-and-technology/2015/05/the-arab-slave-trade-200-million-non-muslim-slaves-from-all-colors-and-nationalities-2767002.html

          “Mosaic Law was revealed for twelve tribes of Israel. We read in it again and again in the Old testament that ”

          I am glad you recognize that following Torah or Moses law was for ISRAELIS, now the JEWS exclusively, thus, ISLAM has no connection, nor it confirms any teaching given in the Old Testament.

          You may pretend it does, but, ISLAM stands with no Jewish nor Christian theological support.

        • adam

          “MOST IMPORTANT: The Torah was not intended for Christians or muslims.”

          So Jesus is NOT the ‘god’ of the OT……

          Good to know…

        • Susana Gonzalez

          The TORAH was only for ISRAEL, today modern Jews. Gentiles needed only not to Murder, to abstain from idolatry and make good deeds. It was more easy to be gentile than to be a TORAH follower. Torah laws were given for a purpose in a time and context. This is the reason why many false claims and accusations form atheists to Christians simply do not apply. (such “slavery”)

        • adam

          Funny, since your Jesus was SO CLEAR on this subject….

        • Rudy R

          You’re cherry picking, said the cherry picker.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Yeah BOB number 2 as always speaking of things you do not know. I give you an advice, read first honestly the BIBLE and then we can talk on a certain level.

        • adam

          Why would I want to stoop down to STUPID?

          You HONESTLY read the bible first

          I already have.

        • I expect to see Christians worldwide rejecting the Old Testament.

          That should take away some ammunition from the gay haters.

        • What fun! Atheists and Muslims cherry pick, but not you or any other Christians.

          That’s odd, because your approach to the Bible’s verses in support of slavery is textbook cherry picking.

          Look in a mirror.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          2- God for ISRAEL or for the whole world?

          Gentiles figure largely in the Old Testament, and often are depicted as being more faithful than the covenanted Jews.

          Before Moses, there was no distinction between Jew and Gentile. God did not favor any particular nation or family, but only the righteous
          Abel was approved because he was more righteous than his brother (Hebrews 11:4); likewise Enoch and Noah were saved because of their righteous
          faith (Hebrews 11:5-7).
          We know that Abraham was not alone in his righteousness during that period. Melchizedek, King of Salem, lived concurrently with Abraham (Genesis 14),
          and was called “the priest of the Most High God” (Hebrews 7:1). Here was a man who served God faithfully, and eventually became a type of Christ’s priesthood (Hebrews 5:6). Undoubtedly, there were other God-fearing people in the land, else Melchizedek would have no one to whom to administer priestly rites. Also, it is widely believed that Job was a contemporary of Abraham, or at least lived in the same pre-Mosaic period. An entire book
          of the Bible is devoted to his story, the story of a man who followed God against all odds. Not only did Job know the true God, but his friends likewise knew Him, indicating that true worshippers were probably neither isolated nor rare. Thus, while Abraham and his family obediently traveled to Canaan, other peoples worshipped God faithfully and truly.

          The Law was given only to the Israelites (as were the prophets), yet there were many Gentiles who believed and worshipped God without benefit of either.
          Moses’ father-in-law, Jethro the Midianite, was a priest (Exodus 3:1).

          Although the power of God working through His people caused whole nations to tremble, God’s providence is seen most clearly when godly individuals were brought to the attention of Gentile monarchs, who then accepted Jehovah as God.

          This was the case with:

          Joseph and the Pharaoh (Genesis 41:38-39),

          Elijah and Naaman (2 Kings 5:15-17),

          Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3:29; 4:2-3),

          Daniel and Darius (Daniel 6:26),

          nd Esther and Ahasuerus (Esther 8).

          Each of these ***Gentile KINGS*** exercised authority over the ancient world and to an extended degree they established true worship among his people.

          GENTILES KINGS who were REAL people,as history confirms,Nebuchadnezzar and Darius even issued specific decrees declaring the God of Israel as the
          one true God of all nations (Daniel 4:1-18; 6:25-27).

          Daniel 4:1-18 4

          [a]King Nebuchadnezzar,To the nations and peoples of every language, who live in all the earth:
          May you prosper greatly!2 It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me.
          3 How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal kingdom;his dominion endures from generation to generation.

          http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/daniel/6.htm

          25Then king Darius wrote unto all the peoples, nations, and languages, that dwell in all the earth; Peace be multiplied unto you.
          26I make a decree, that in all the dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end:
          27He delivereth and rescueth, and he worketh signs and wonders in heaven and in earth; who hath delivered Daniel from the power of the lions.
          28So this Daniel prospered in the reign of Darius, and in the reign of Cyrus the Persian.

          http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1227

          Resume: The ancient world KNEW about GOD and HIS LAWS. Millions of gentiles were believers, God fearing people, without the burden of the TORAH.

          What a wonderful thing to know that POWERFUL KINGS of the ancient world, bowed before the GOD of ISRAEL and RECOGNIZED HIM as the TRUE and only GOD.

          Atheists and muslims alike, should pay attention what a powerful king wrote about the GOD of ISRAEL:

          http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/daniel/4.htm

          1Nebuchadnezzar the king, unto all the peoples, nations, and languages, that ***dwell in all the earth; peace be multiplied unto you. 2It hath seemed good unto me to shew the signs and wonders that the Most High God hath wrought toward me.

          3How great are his signs! and how mighty are his wonders! his kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion is from generation to generation.

        • adam

          ..

        • Susana Gonzalez

          3- JESUS came for ISRAEL or for the whole world?
          “Christian missionaries have gone to all parts of the world, but Jesus himself had no such plan.”

          Really? I think is pretty CLEAR the following passages, This is what we call the great Commission.

          http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/matthew/28.htm
          19Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost

          http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/mark/16.htm
          15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

          http://bibliaparalela.com/acts/1-8.htm
          But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto ** the uttermost part of the earth.***

          http://bibliaparalela.com/matthew/24-14.htm
          And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world **for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.**

          http://bibliaparalela.com/multi/romans/3-29.htm
          Or is God the God of Jews only? Isn’t he the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

          http://bibliaparalela.com/galatians/3-26.htm
          and that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, Therefore will I give praise unto thee among the Gentiles, And sing unto thy name.

          I believe I have proven you that JESUS came for all nations as the prophecy told to our father ABRHAM

          Galatians 3:8
          Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

          ALL NATIONS!

          Is the HOLY SCRIPTURES rebuking you!

          Do you believe or are you condemned for disbelieving?

        • SparklingMoon,

          Really? I think is pretty CLEAR the following passages, This is what we call the great Commission. http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/
          ——————————————————————-
          The reference you have given from Gospel have no message that Jesus was a Universal Prophet with a universal message. These verses like other verses of the Bible are testimonies in support of Jesus’ escape from death on the Cross. On the morning of Sunday he first met Mary Magdalene, who at once informed the disciples that Jesus was alive, but they did not believe it. Then he was seen by two of the disciples when they were going out to the countryside; and last of all he appeared to the eleven when they were at their meal and censured them for their callousness and lack of faith: ”He said to them, “Why are you troubled? Why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is truly me. Touch me and see, for a spirit doesn’t have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.While they still didn’t believe for joy, and wondered, he said to them, “Do you have anything here to eat? ”They gave him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb. He took them, and ate in front of them (Luke 24:38 43)

          Jesus himself showed to his disciples the flesh and bones of his body, and again, not only this, but there were also the pangs of hunger and thirst –necessities of the mortal body; otherwise, where was the need for him during the journey to Galilee to do such useless things as eating and drinking water, resting, and sleeping? Undoubtedly, hunger and thirst, in this world, are painful for the mortal body, which may even prove fatal if they become extreme. So there is no doubt that Jesus did not die on the Cross, nor did he acquire a new spiritual body: rather, he was in a state of death-like swoon.

          Now, to say that Jesus did all this with a spiritual body (which is supposed to be the nature of the body after death), which only the physical body was capable of doing, as, for example, eating and drinking, and sleeping, and making a long journey to Galilee which was at a distance of seventy miles from Jerusalem, is saying something impossible and quite against reason. The gospels clearly show that Jesus met his disciples in the ordinary mortal human body, and made a long journey on foot to Galilee; showed his wounds to the disciples, dined with them at night, and slept in their company.( Ruhanikhazain)

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “The reference you have given from Gospel does not say that Jesus was a Universal Prophet with a universal message.”

          Lord Jesus came to SAVE the WORLD His GRACE is for the WHOLE WORLD!

          John 12:47
          “I.. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

          PLEASE NOTE: 4 amazing words: ======to – save -the – world.====

          Do you need something more EXPLICIT?

          http://biblehub.com/john/3-17.htm
          17″For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world***, but that the **world might be saved through Him

          The GENTILES Samaritans declared:

          http://biblehub.com/john/4-42.htm
          Many Samaritans Believe
          …41Many more believed because of His word; 42and they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this ***One is indeed the Savior of the world***.”

          ** Savior of the world.**

          Lord JESUS cared for gentiles enough as Jehovah of the Old testament, and He went directly to preach the Gospel to them. The Gospel is the Salvation through the Messiah, this is what the Gospel means. But JESUS intended to PREPARE his apostles, the descendants of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL, for the great commission to preach the GOSPEL all over the world. This proves also that JESUS as Jehovah, chose only ISRAEL descendant to spread His message. GOD NEVER NEVER could possible choose a pagan to become prophet.

          Because my friend here is a shocking revelation: the nations founded on Christian principles are the “lost” not so lost 10 Tribes of ISRAEL.

          1 Timothy 4:10
          That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the ***Savior of all people,*** and especially of those who believe.

          1 John 2:2
          He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the ***whole world***.

          1 John 4:14
          And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the **Savior of the world.***

          Salvation through Lord Jesus is UNIVERSAL. To the whole world.

          By now, I hope that this is EXPLICITLY CLEAR AS THE WATER.

          This is the reason we reject any prophet. Quran states the prophethood only comes to the descendants of ISRAEL, so the BIBLE. Muhammad cannot stand before JESUS. Jesus was sinless. muhammad was a sinner and needed Jesus to be saved.

          Jesus is the only path to GOD and HE DECLARED CLEARLY:

          http://biblehub.com/john/14-6.htm
          ” 6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

          no one comes to the Father but through Me.

          no one comes to the Father but through Me.

          no one comes to the Father but through Me.

          1 John 5:20
          We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. ***He is the true God and eternal life.***

          IS JESUS Who will judge the world, He is the one who is coming back. He is the one who will resurrect Muhammad to be judged by his wicked deeds. And my muslim friend be aware that denying Jesus ministry and salvation is a serious sin.

          http://biblehub.com/nlt/revelation/22.htm
          12“Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay **all people** according to their deeds. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

          Matthew 16:27
          For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          The Divinity of Lord JESUS is one of the most shocking statements: either you accept it or reject it. GOD walking among humans…like human.

          Contrary to what you can believe, the Torah teaches that GOD comes from time to time in a human form. When talking to ADam and Eve.

          http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/genesis/3.htm
          8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking*** in the garden in the cool of the day..

          PLEASE if you read carefully you will note: GOD walking!! this is not a new christian concept. Jews knows that very well.

          Another proof in the Old testament of GOD coming to earth as human, and even eating what Abrham offered to HIM.

          “1And the LORD appeared unto him*** by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2and he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood over against him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door..and bowed himself to the earth,”

          http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/genesis/18.htm

          Abraham bowing to humans? no. Abraham knew was in the presence of GOD and in fear he bowed to earth. It was the time when the LORD used to appear to humans. You know what is strange? that GOD showed up directly to Jewish prophets.

          But muhammad can only claim to have seen something, he though was angel “Gabriel”

        • SparklingMoon,

          The Divinity of Lord JESUS is one of the most shocking statements: either you accept it or reject it. GOD walking among humans…like human.
          —————————————————-
          There is no doubt that the Prophet Jesus (as) is a great Prophet of God. He is without question loved and honoured by God, a light of this world and the sun of guidance.He was glorified before the Lord God and possessed a status close to His throne. Millions of those who love him, follow his teachings, and act upon his guidance will receive deliverance from hell.

          However,it is a serious error and disbelief to raise such a chosen servant of God to divinity.Those whom God loves are very close to Him and have a special relationship with Him. If, on account of this relationship, they sometimes refer to themselves as the “sons of God”, or claim that God speaks through them or manifests Himself in them, then these claims are true in a sense and from a perspective which must be explained. The use of such terms —for those who lose themselves in God and then emerge in a new form after being nurtured by the light of God— is a time honoured tradition among those bestowed with Divine knowledge.It is sometimes said that God has appeared in such a person .This expression does not mean that the person is himself Lord of all the Worlds. Many have lost their footing on entering this delicate château of thought and, as consequence of this confusion, thousands of pious people, holy men, and avatars have been worshiped as God. (Ruhanikhazain)

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “However,it is a serious error and disbelief to raise such a chosen servant of God to divinity.”

          JEsus was not a chosen servant. HE WAS GOD In flesh.

          JESUS declared of HIMSELF

          1- JEsus can forgive sins…as the FATHER

          2- Jesus can JUDGE people…as the FATHER

          Let us analyze the first sentence with the words of JESUS:
          http://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/5.htm
          18Some men came carrying a paralyzed man on a sleeping mat. They tried to take him inside to Jesus, 19but they couldn’t reach him because of the crowd. So they went up to the roof and took off some tiles. Then they lowered the sick man on his mat down into the crowd, right in front of Jesus. 20Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the man, “Young man, your sins are forgiven.”

          21But the Pharisees and teachers of religious law said to themselves, “Who does he think he is? That’s blasphemy! Only God can forgive sins!”

          JEWISH SCHOLARS knew that only GOD can forgive sins. They were shocked deeply but JESUS responded:

          22Jesus knew what they were thinking, so he asked them, “Why do you question this in your hearts? 23Is it easier to say ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or ‘Stand up and walk’? 24So I will prove to you that the Son of Mand has the authority on earth to forgive sins.” Then Jesus turned to the paralyzed man and said, “Stand up, pick up your mat, and go home!”

          JESUS proved this way HE COULD FORGIVE SINS. No prophet ever claimed to forgive sins. Only JESUS. That make him someone more that human. This make HIM GOD.

          2 JEsus claiming to JUDGE the WORLD. This is an ancient prophecy from the book of DANIEL.

          http://bibliaparalela.com/erv/daniel/7.htm
          13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

          14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

        • if you read carefully you will note: GOD walking!!

          Yup. The idea of God (Yahweh, Elohim, whatever) evolves through the Bible. In Genesis, he walks in the Garden. And later, we’re told that “no man see me, and live.”

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Yeah BOB as always speaking of things you do not know. I give you an advice, read first honestly the BIBLE and then we can talk on a certain level.

        • Kodie

          Yeah BOB, take the advice of a babbling incoherent moron and read that bible “honestly”.

        • adam

          “read first honestly the BIBLE and then we can talk on a certain level.”

          Lead by example…

        • Greg G.

          You don’t read the bible honestly. You cry when it is pointed out what it really says about slavery.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          no BOB number 3. I do not use cherry pick of verses as you do, to make a false doctrine. I know what my BIBLE says regarding slavery and is far from what you are led to believe. This is a old subject and I made almost 5 years ago a video in youtube regarding biblical slavery. Which prove, how you keep repeating over and over the same lie.

        • adam

          Yes, we can all read the ‘bible’

        • Greg G.

          When Christians tell us how wonderful Old Testament slavery was, the “don’t treat fellow Israeli slaves harshly” is said to apply to all slaves but there is a great distinction in the treatment of Israeli slaves and indentured servants versus foreign slaves.

          You cherry-pick Exodus 20:16 which is about kidnapping in general, not kidnapping for slavery specifically. It’s the only law prohibiting kidnapping in the Bible. If you were correct, it would have been completely biblically legal to kidnap and collect ransoms. The word for “sold” in that verse would mean “received money for” to cover collecting ransoms, but could also include selling into slavery. But the Bible provides plenty of other means to acquire slaves but kidnapping is forbidden. That makes it a poor defense of Bible slavery yet it is the only argument you have. You are not reading the Bible honestly. You may get away with lying to yourself and other Christians but you will be called out for it here.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Bob number 3, you only pick the verses and make a whole doctrine. I posted already the verses that contradicts such statements but you do not care to read it. In any analysis, you usually see the 2 sides, otherwise you can be accused of being biased. You are biased, because you REFUSE to understand the other side, as you already made up your mind is DIFFICULT to try to reason with you.

          When you do an analyse this way in the real life your subject of analysis will be criticized and dismissed. Biased analyses has no value my friend.

          I understand perfectly your side. I understand that you accuse GOD of allowing slavery, because GOD allowed hebrews to purchase foreign slaves, 3800 years ago and I understand that you are VERY CONCERNED for the ancient people being -purchased and owned by Hebrews.

          I brought the example of paying a ransom for innocent people being kidnapped and sold.
          You surely would wish someone rescue your child, spouse, parents etc. in this situation.

          Well ISRAEL was allowed to purchase slaves with this purpose. The posterior reading of the TORAH allows you to understand the treatment of those foreign people. Foreign Slaves FIT in this category.

          GOD regulated the practice of slavery in a time and circumstances only. But also GOD commanded the following:

          Exodus 23:9
          “Do not oppress a *foreigner*; you yourselves know how it feels to be foreigners, because you were foreigners in Egypt.

          **Because the slave was a foreigner, it was told to HEBREWS not to oppress them in any way.

          Deuteronomy 27:19
          “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.”

          **JUSTICE Was for everyone. Is that bad?

          Jeremiah 22:3
          This is what the LORD says: Do what is just and right. Rescue from the hand of the oppressor the one who has been robbed. Do no wrong or violence to the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

          **How exactly do you rescue someone has been robbed? WE are commanded to do it. Is that bad?

          Leviticus 24:17
          “‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death.

          **from what I know USA still has the death penalty to murderers.

          and once rescue, HOW these persons suppose to live…as kings? no! they had to work like anyone else. That is common sense. Today, rescued refugees mostly live from welfare and “humanists’ liberal nations perpetuates laziness.

          Regulations on biblical slavery:

          The slave was a member of the master’s household (Lev. 22:11).

          The slave was required to rest on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10; Deut. 5:14).

          The slave was required to participate in religious observances (Gen. 17:13; Exodus 12:44;Lev. 22:11).

          The Bible prohibited extradition of slaves and granted them asylum (Deut. 23:16-17).

          The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).

          When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14).

          in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8–10).

          Even today modern employees are not members of the household of the employer. God commanded to treat a slave as a member of the household.
          Modern employees are exploited with low wages. Sometimes they are treated badly and sent without compensation add to that the depression and stress of harassment.

          I believe that is possible that many modern employees would wish to work, under the labor conditions of the Biblical “slavery’, house, food, no mistreatment, rest day, participation in festivities, being treated as members of the household, justice, compensation etc.

          I hope this position is clear. I will not answer anymore about this subject.

        • Greg G.

          Oh, Susanna!

          The Hebrews had hired servants, bound (also called “indentured”) servants, and slaves bought with money. You will never understand biblical slavery until you recognize the differences between them. This is a common mistake among Christians which I take as an indication of the deceit of Christian leadership. You cited Leviticus 22:11 but if you read the previous verse instead of cherry-picking verse 11, you would see the differences. You would also see that the passage was about temple priests and who was permitted eat sacrifices.

          The servitude of a Hebrew debt-slave was limited to six years (Ex. 21:2; Deut. 15:12).

          When a slave was freed, he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically (Deut. 15:14).

          These are not verses about slaves! These are about indentured servants.

          in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8–10).

          But had you read further into 1 Timothy, you would have found:

          1 Timothy 6:1 (NRSV)6 Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed.

          There is no exception for the “ungodly and sinful”, the masters should still regarded as worthy of all honor.

          Have you considered this?

          Deuteronomy 15:12-17 (NRSV)12 If a member of your community, whether a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and works for you six years, in the seventh year you shall set that person free. 13 And when you send a male slave out from you a free person, you shall not send him out empty-handed. 14 Provide liberally out of your flock, your threshing floor, and your wine press, thus giving to him some of the bounty with which the Lord your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; for this reason I lay this command upon you today. 16 But if he says to you, “I will not go out from you,” because he loves you and your household, since he is well off with you, 17 then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his earlobe into the door, and he shall be your slave forever.You shall do the same with regard to your female slave.

          Do you see that it says an indentured servant can voluntarily become a permanent slave? But the Bible goes even further by giving explicit instructions in how to give a temporary servant such an incentive:

          Exodus 21:2-6 (NRSV)2 When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave declares, “I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person,” 6 then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

          The Bible instructs the literate master in a method to use “family values” against an Israeli servant. Instead of the expected livestock, he must leave his wife and children.

          When you compare employees to slaves, you should realize that employees are like the hired servants in Leviticus 22:10 who were not to eat with the priest’s slaves. What employees would want to live like a slave who could be beaten to death without punishment to the killer? You really do not understand this stuff.

          I hope this position is clear. I will not answer anymore about this subject.

          Well, at least you are promising to stop lying about the Bible and slavery. The only position that is clear is that you don’t understand the subject.

          Just so you don’t think I am cherry-picking verses about slavery. Here are all the verses in the Bible on the subject. They do not paint a pretty picture.

          Genesis 17:12-13 (NRSV)12 Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring. 13 Both the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

          Exodus 12:43-45 (NRSV)43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance for the passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, 44 but any slave who has been purchased may eat of it after he has been circumcised; 45 no bound or hired servant may eat of it.

          Exodus 17:28,32 (NRSV)28 When an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall not be liable.32 If the ox gores a male or female slave, the owner shall pay to the slaveowner thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

          Exodus 21:2-6 (NRSV)2 When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave declares, “I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person,” 6 then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

          Exodus 21:7-11 (NRSV)7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed; he shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt unfairly with her. 9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out without debt, without payment of money.

          Exodus 21:20-21 (NRSV)20 When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

          Deuteronomy 15:12-17 (NRSV)12 If a member of your community, whether a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and works for you six years, in the seventh year you shall set that person free. 13 And when you send a male slave out from you a free person, you shall not send him out empty-handed. 14 Provide liberally out of your flock, your threshing floor, and your wine press, thus giving to him some of the bounty with which the Lord your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; for this reason I lay this command upon you today. 16 But if he says to you, “I will not go out from you,” because he loves you and your household, since he is well off with you, 17 then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his earlobe into the door, and he shall be your slave forever.You shall do the same with regard to your female slave.

          Leviticus 22:10-11 (NRSV)10 No lay person shall eat of the sacred donations. No bound or hired servant of the priest shall eat of the sacred donations; 11 but if a priest acquires anyone by purchase, the person may eat of them; and those that are born in his house may eat of his food.

          Leviticus 25:44-46 (NRSV)44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.

          Luke 12:47-48 (NRSV)47 That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.

          Ephesians 6:5-9 (NRSV)5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; 6 not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7 Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, 8 knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free. 9 And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality.

          Colossians 3:22 (NRSV)22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything, not only while being watched and in order to please them, but wholeheartedly, fearing the Lord.

          1 Timothy 6:1 (NRSV)6 Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed.

          Titus 2:9 (NRSV)9 Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back,

          1 Peter 2:18-20 (NRSV)18 Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. 19 For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. 20 If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God’s approval.

        • adam

          //

        • adam

          ……

        • Philmonomer

          Can you link to the video? thanks.

        • adam

          ///

        • adam

        • adam

          ….

        • Oh my! Who just got taken behind the wood shed??

          You sidestepped my point because you can’t answer it. Message received.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          I will give an answer. GOD cannot be seen HE IS SPIRIT, the HOLY SPIRIT.

          Is only when he make Himself human that HE can be SEEN.

          GOD in His form cannot be seen, humans would die. So GOD has to make HIMSELF a human like us as HE did in the person of JESUS. So HE can interact with us. When GOD came down as human then we see JESUS. And He has been doing this from ancient times. IS in the TORAH in the Gospels and in many religions. We call this Theophany.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophany

          When GOD spoke to ISRAEL they were TERRIFIED:

          http://biblehub.com/exodus/20-19.htm

          18All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. 19Then they said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die.”

        • adam

          “GOD in His form cannot be seen, humans would die. ”

          You are a LYING IDIOT

          Well at least according to YOUR bible…

        • Susana Gonzalez

          YES BOB number 4, recurring to ad-hominen does not make you the smart one, the contrary is true. You do not realize to which point I ignore blatant unpleasant people lie you?

        • adam

          Oh YES, we understand WELL how you IGNORE truth and PRETEND…

        • adam

          …..

        • adam

          //

        • Greg G.

          Moses saw God’s buttocks. Do spirits have buttocks?

        • Pofarmer

          Religious people can be asses, does that count?

        • I will give an answer.

          You deign to answer me! My cup sloppeth over.

          GOD in His form cannot be seen, humans would die.

          Wrong. You just told us that Adam and Abraham saw God.

          This is the problem with making up a story. You have a hard time keeping it straight. My advice: follow the evidence.

          When GOD spoke to ISRAEL they were TERRIFIED:

          And you worship this guy?

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Bob there are spiritual realities. God in SPIRIT cannot be seen. You can only see HIM when HE CHOSE TO BECOME HUMAN.
          JESUS is GOD in human form. Is that difficult to understand? seems that for muslims and atheist you do not get the concept.

          The presence of GOD , the creator of the Universe with all His MIGHT can make people tremble, in FEAR and TERROR.

          And do you oppose HIM ?

          what a foolish thing…

        • adam

          “And do you oppose HIM ?

          what a foolish thing…”

          As MOST people have for millions of years and YOUR ‘god’ does WHAT?

          Just shows the lack of power in YOUR imaginary ‘god’…

        • adam

          //

        • Greg G.

          Moses wrestled with God. Jacob wrestled with God who had to cheat by miraculously crippling Jacob. Adam and Eve saw him. Did Abraham see him? Job had a conversation, really an argument that Job won so God got all high and mighty. Or were those all imaginary stories like your “spiritual realities”?

        • Bob there are spiritual realities.

          Are there? So far, you’ve only asserted them. I’m waiting for the evidence.

          JESUS is GOD in human form. Is that difficult to understand?

          Adam and Abraham saw God in human form. Is that difficult to understand? It’s in your own holy book–read it sometime.

          The presence of GOD , the creator of the Universe with all His MIGHT can make people tremble, in FEAR and TERROR.

          And do you oppose HIM ?

          what a foolish thing…

          So it’s like living in North Korea. The leader is an asshole, but you’d better suck up to him or you’ll regret it. In that case, I see your point—brownnosing is the smart move.

        • Susana Gonzalez

          Your comparison is pathetic. God will never force anyone to love Him. You are a living proof. You chose by your own free will to fight against GOD.

          What a foolish thing!

        • MNb

          “God will never force anyone to love Him.”
          Psssst – the prison system is part of governmental law enforcement.
          The threat of Hell is part of divine love enforcement: love me or you’ll suffer forever ……
          How did you put it?

          “His MIGHT can make people tremble, in FEAR and TERROR.
          And do you oppose HIM ?”
          In other words: love me or be scared. That’s the definition of love enforcement.
          Btw your god’s might doesn’t seem to be that impressive. I’m not scared at all – never have been since I became an unbeliever almost 40 years ago. Perhaps your god is OK with me not worshipping him.

          “You chose by your own free will to fight against GOD.”
          Eh no, I never fought against god. I never fought against Pink Unicorns either.

        • I’ll assume that the points you avoided are points you have no response to.

          As for God not forcing you to love him, yes, I see that. My comparison to the Great Leader remains: you don’t suck up, and you’ll regret it in an eternity in hell.

        • Greg G.

          God will never force anyone to love Him.

          How is one forced to do anything? You can threaten to take away things a person values. You can threaten someone with death. You can threaten to torture said person. You can actually torture the person. You can threaten the person’s loved ones with the same.

          The God myth does all of those. How is that not coercive force? Of course that only works on people who don’t understand that it is a myth.

        • Kodie

          You accept that god is your abuser. Even in your mind, it was a choice, and all you can do is say nice things about your abuser or you’re afraid of what he’ll do to you. But you know whose fault it really is? You worship people. You worship liars, you are afraid of a fictional character because you’ve been convinced that these people tell the truth. Nothing you say or nothing I say will change either one’s mind – you’re warped and I’m free. You’re incapable of changing your mind, because in your mind, this fictional character has the power to smite you. Why should I change my mind and turn ugly on the inside and stupid all over like you? Everything you say tells us how disgusting and sick you are.

        • adam

          …..

        • adam

          ////

        • jh

          In point of fact, Jacob actually wrestled with God. That’s a bit more than just seeing God.

          Genesis 32: 22-31

          22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. 23 After he had sent them across the stream, he sent over all his possessions. 24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
          But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” 27 The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered.
          28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
          29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
          But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” 31 The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip.

          Not only that – John 14 (Jesus directly equates himself to God so I would assume that people saw “God”.)

          John 14

          6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

          8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

          9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves

        • Susana Gonzalez

          “His beloved son Jesus and made him accursed and caused him to be hanged on the cross to deliver the world from sin, is completely wrong”

          Why is wrong? islam teaches that those muslims who kill themselves will intercede for the sins of 70 members of their families. IF you believe a shaheed can intercede for your sins…why you do not believe that a PERFECT MAN, a MESSIAH, the greatest prophet of all times, can intercede for OURS SINS?

          you have to learn that the sin is eternal. Cannot be erased with good deeds. Or with martyrdom.

          If someone kill your child or wife or parents your pain will be eternal. Not even the death penalty for the murderer will erase your pain. Let us suppose that the murder does “good deeds” to you..how many good deeds will bring back your loved one?

          NONE. This is the reality of sin. No good deeds can erase any single sin.

          This is your hadith
          arrated AbudDarda’: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The intercession of a martyr will be accepted for seventy members of his family.
          Abu Dawud 14:2516

        • SparklingMoon,

          Why you do not believe that a PERFECT MAN, a MESSIAH, the greatest prophet of all times, can intercede for OURS SINS?
          —————————————————————-
          But I fail to understand how people’s hearts can be cleansed of sin by such an unmerited death and how the crucifixion of an innocent man can cause anyone’s sins to be forgiven! This method is not only contrary to justice, but also to mercy; for it is unjust to punish an innocent person in place of the guilty one, and it is cruel to kill one’s own son in such a callous manner, and that too in vain. The real cause of the current deluge of sin, is lack of God-realization, and as long as the cause persists it is impossible to negate the effect. What kind of logic is it to say that although the cause—which is the lack of God-realization— is still present, the effect—sin— has been eradicated!

          There are thousands of instances in our experience which show that unless we have full awareness about something we can neither love it, nor fear it, nor understand its worth. Man’s motivation for doing certain things and avoiding others is either love or fear, and these only come from awareness. Without awareness there will be no fear and no love.

          Christians do not possess anything that can lead a person to God realization. They have already set a seal on revelation, their miracles have ended with the Messiah and his disciples, and they have abandoned the path of reason by deifying a human being. As for past miracles, which are now in the form of fables, their detractors might wonder just how authentic they are and how far they have been exaggerated. The plan [devised by the Christians] for attaining salvation is not practicable, for it never stops people from sin, and it is a sin in itself to commit suicide for the deliverance of others.

          The Messiah never willingly accepted crucifixion, and the mischievous Jews of his time had treated him as they liked. He spent the whole night weeping and praying in a garden, and God accepted his prayers on account of his righteousness, and—as the Bible itself admits—saved him from an accursed death on the cross. It is, therefore, sheer calumny to say that the Messiah willingly committed suicide, and it is unreasonable to suggest that one can cure the headache of another by striking one’s own head.(Ruhani khazain)

        • Susana Gonzalez

          What is the opinion of your own teachings:

          This is your hadith
          arrated AbudDarda’: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The intercession of a martyr will be accepted for seventy members of his family.
          Abu Dawud 14:2516

          Why a murderer, a “martyr” can intercede for others and JESUS CANNOT?

          In fact you believe the same, except that you put your faith in imperfect unsaved sinners, one of them the man you call your prophet, who did not have any idea where he would be…after his death. A prophet unaware of his salvation, puts your soul in danger of ending in hell.

          Sahih International

          Say, “I am not something original among the messengers, **nor do I know what will be done with me or with you.** I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner.”

          http://quran.com/46/8-9

          Muhammad did not have an idea of what will happen to him or to his followers after his death.

          Get the point? this is the reason muslims turn to the Jihad and martyrdom, so they can get salvation killing unbelievers, this is the real cause of TERRORISM!, the UN-certainty of salvation. How sad for them, once they die, to find out the true! no murderer can go to heavens!!

        • SparklingMoon,

          This is your hadith arrated AbudDarda’: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: The intercession of a martyr will be accepted for seventy members of his family. Abu Dawud 14:2516
          ———————————————————–
          A Hadith always should be according to the message of the Quran as prophet of Islam was appointed to maintain the law of the Quran and nothing else. The Quran is the only Book of God than which we have no more conclusive and certain statement. It is the Word of God and is free from all doubt and speculation as it has promise of God for eternal safety of its words. Hadiths are those traditions which were compiled from the statements of diverse narrators a century and a half after the Prophet of Islam (sa). The Prophet of Islam (sa) did not have the Hadith recorded in his presence nor did he make any arrangement for its compilation. If the purport of a Hadith is not opposed to the Book of Allah, it would be accepted as authoritative, but we will not accept an interpretation of a Hadith which is opposed to the clear text of the Holy Quran.

          God Almighty says in the Quran: He who follows the right way follows it only for the good of his own soul: and he who goes astray, goes astray only to his own loss. And no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another. We never punish until We have sent a Messenger. Again [Quran 41:47] Whoso does right, it is for his own soul; and whoso does evil, it will only go against it. And thy Lord is not at all unjust to His servants. Again [Quran35:19] And no burdened soul can bear the burden of another; and if a heavily laden soul call another to bear its load, naught of it shall be carried by the other, even though he be a kinsman. Thou canst warn only those who fear their Lord in secret and observe Prayer. And whoso purifies himself, purifies himself only to his own advantage; and to Allah shall be the return.

          Jesus was a follower of Mosaic Law and according to many verses of Old testament: (Deuteronomy 24:16) ”Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin”. Again (Ezekiel 18:20)” one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.” Again (Isaiah 3:10) ”Tell the righteous it will be well with them, for they will enjoy the fruit of their deeds.” Again (Isaiah 3:11) ”Woe to the wicked! Disaster is upon them! They will be paid back for what their hands have done.” Again (Jeremiah 31:30) ”Instead, everyone will die for their own sin; whoever eats sour grapes–their own teeth will be set on edge.” Again (Ezekiel 14:14)”even if these three men–Noah, Daniel and Job–were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD.”

          A doctrine that is to be found neither in the Torah, nor in the Holy Quran, nor even in the Gospels! Nowhere do Jesus in the Gospels even hint about this kind of salvation as usually considered by the followers of Trinity. Jesus always called his followers towards God Almighty and to achieve His love for salvation.

        • Rudy R

          I’m afraid you are wasting your time. Susana is drunk from all that Christian Kool-Aid she’s been guzzling.

      • jh

        Nope. People don’t need faith. They need air, they need food, they may need a form of economic currency. Faith isn’t necessary for living.

  • Mick

    Christianity will increasingly become an African religion.

    Everybody else better get ready then. Those African Christians are real bastards:

    Christian militias in Central African Republic have carried out ethnic cleansing of the Muslim population during the country’s ongoing civil war, but there is no proof there was genocidal intent, a United Nations commission of inquiry has said.
    http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2015/01/un-muslims-ethnically-cleansed-car-2015196546788288.html

  • SparklingMoon,

    In this philosophical age, which is accompanied by cultured reason and sharpness of intellect, it would be a great mistake to hope for religious success on the basis of such doctrines ( that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross, came back to life, then ascended bodily to heaven and took his seat on the right hand of his Father and will descend (with the same body) to the earth to judge mankind in these latter days). If these meaningless speculations were to be presented to the illiterate Bedouins of Arabia, or the inhabitants of the deserts of Africa, or the wild dwellers of the far off islands in the oceans, they might gain some acceptance; but we cannot hope to propagate among educated people such doctrines as are utterly opposed to reason, experience, laws of nature and philosophy.. How can those, whose hearts and minds have been developed by the light of new kinds of knowledge, accept such concepts which are disrespectful to God Almighty, denigrate His Unity, falsify His Law and abrogate the teachings of His Books?

    Jesus was a true Prophet of God Almighty and was a loved one of His. According to the eternal ways of God Almighty, every Prophet with a high resolve has to migrate on account of the persecution by his people. Therefore, Jesus (peace be upon him) also, after a ministry of three years, and having been rescued from death on the cross, migrated towards India. Having conveyed the Divine message to the other tribes of Israel, who, after the Babylonian dispersal, had settled in India, Kashmir and Tibet. (Ruhanikhazain)

    • MNb

      How fat is your big thumb exactly?

      • SparklingMoon,

        It does not mean to be disrespectful in any way to Christians or to the person of Jesus Christ. It is a fundamental article of faith to believe in the truth of Jesus Christ, and to accept him as a special and honored , holding a unique position. But where truth demands, in all fairness to logic, common sense and human understanding, one cannot abstain from revising one’s views on Christianity. The purpose is to bring Christians closer to the reality of Jesus Christ and away from the myth created around him

        Time can distort reality into myths and legends. Influence of such legends only serves to distance man from the realities of life. As a result, faith becomes imaginary and unreal. Whereas true faith has its roots in the verities and facts of history, it is very real and potent enough to bring about significant changes in human society. In the endeavor to understand the true faith and teachings of Jesus, it is essential to sift out the fact from the fiction and truth from myth. A critical approach is essential to save the world of Christianity from unfortunate moral degradation; (the course of which they are finding so hard to reverse) and as a result contemporary youth is fast losing its faith in God.

        • Greg G.

          Good. Now apply that same thinking to your own religion. For example:

          But where truth demands, in all fairness to logic, common sense and human understanding, one cannot abstain from revising one’s views on Islam. The purpose is to bring Muslims closer to the reality of Muhammad and away from the myth created around him.

          Time can distort reality into myths and legends. Influence of such legends only serves to distance man from the realities of life. As a result, faith becomes imaginary and unreal. Whereas true faith has its roots in the verities and facts of history, it is very real and potent enough to bring about significant changes in human society.

        • SparklingMoon,

          Muslims have no such claims that Jesus (peace be upon him) died on the cross, came back to life, then ascended bodily to heaven and took his seat on the right hand of his Father and will descend (with the same body) to the earth to judge mankind in these latter days). Muslims believe Jesus in the light of the revelation of the Quran a beloved messenger of God Almighty for people of Israel like other prophets of God.

          It is confirmed by God Almighty in the Quran: ”The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; many Messengers have passed away before him. His mother was a paragon of truth and they both were in need of and ate food. Observe how We explain the signs for their benefit, then observe how they are led away. Ask them: Do you worship beside God that which has no power to do you harm or good? It is God Who is All Hearing, All-Knowing. Admonish them: People of the Book, exceed not the bounds in the matte r of your religion unjustly, nor follow the vain desires of a people who themselves went astray before and caused many others to go astray, and who strayed away from the right path.” (Quran 5:76-78)

          ”Those certainly are not believer of God Almighty who say: God is none but the Messiah, son of Mary: whereas the Messiah himself taught: Children of Israel, worship God Who is my Lord and your Lord. Surely God has forbidden heaven to him who associates partners with God, and the fire will be his resort. The wrongdoers shall have no helpers. Those certainly are disbelievers who say: God is the th ird of the three. There is no one worthy of worship but the One God. If they desist not from that which they say, a grievous chastisement shall surely afflict those of them that disbelieve. Will they not then turn to God and beg His forgiveness, seeing th at God is Most Forgiving. Ever Mercirul. ”( Quran 5:73-75)

          The sayings of Jesus also confirm that he had not the slightest hesitation in affirming the Unity of God. For instance: ”One of the scribes came.. and asked him, which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him , The first Of all the commandments is, Hear O Israel, the Lord, our God, is One Lord: and thou shall love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: This is the first commandme nt.. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth; for there is One God; and there is none other but He. (Mark 12:29-30 -32)

          It states in the Gospel: ”Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do you stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; because that thou, being man, makest thyself God. (John 10:31-33)

          Now here the crucial question was directly posed to Jesus. Did he claim to be God, the second person in the Trinity, as he subsequently came to be represented? His answer must be accepted by all those who profess to believe in him and follow him.

          Jesus answered them, is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? If he called them gods unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, thou blasphemeth; because I said, I am the son of God (John 10:34-35)

          This makes it quite clear that the expression, son of God, when applied to Jesus, by himself or by others, meant no more in his case than it means in its application to others in scripture:

          I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Psalms 82:6) Israel is My son, even My first born. (Exodus 4:22) Also I will make him (David) Myfirst born, higher than the kings of the earth. (Psalms 89:27) He (Solomon) shall be My son, and I will be his Father. (1. Chron 22:10)

          Jesus was son of God in that sense, but in no way at all God, the son, the second person in the Trinity as is claimed by some followers of Trinity.

        • MNb

          Atheists have no such claims that Jesus died on the cross, came back to life, then ascended bodily to heaven and took his seat on the right hand of his Father and will descend to the earth to judge mankind in these latter days.
          They don’t have such claims that Mohammed rode the sky on his horse Buraq either, not that they will receive 72 virgins after they die.

          “It is confirmed by God Almighty”
          Your god, almighty or not, is imaginary, so he/she/it can’t confirm anything.
          How fat is your big thumb exactly?

        • Greg G.

          Previously, you said:

          But where truth demands, in all fairness to logic, common sense and human understanding, one cannot abstain from revising one’s views on Christianity.

          You are right to do that with Christianity but you should do that with your own beliefs. Many stories about Jesus are implausible. We can see that those stories are derived from Hebrew and Greek literature of the day from tales about other people, not Jesus. But we can see the same thing with even the plausible stories. You mentioned that Jesus had a 3 year ministry. That is inferred from the Gospel of John which relies on the Gospel of Mark where the ministry was a few months. But the earlier epistles don’t support any ministry. The epistles only refer to Jesus in terms of the Hebrew scriptures with no tales of recent events. When you peel back myths, you are left with nothing. Yet a significant segment of the world’s population continues to believe it fervently.

          So you should be skeptical of your own fervent beliefs. Start by seriously considering whether riding to heaven on a flying horse is any more plausible than the cow that jumped over the moon. Then step back to consider the plausibility of a human taking dictation from an angel in a cave.

          Your belief system is as absurd as the Christian belief system. But where your belief system is good, you don’t need a religious justification for it. The good parts are self-justified. Reject the silly parts and embrace the reasonable parts.

        • SparklingMoon,

          So you should be skeptical of your own fervent beliefs. Start by seriously considering whether riding to heaven on a flying horse is any more plausible than the cow that jumped over the moon.
          —————————————————
          There is no description in the Quran that Prophet of Islam flew to Heaven on a winged horse . The name of ‘Miraj” is given to that spiritual journey when the Prophet of Islam (sa) had a vision of those celestial scenes he was transported into a highly spiritual state

          It is described in religious books that Prophet of Islam lay between sleep and awakening (his eyes were closed but he was conscious), Miraj (ascension to heaven) vision took place. The Quran describes this spiritual journey in these words: ”And He revealed His Word when he was on the uppermost horizon. Then he drew nearer to God; then he came down to mankind. So that he became, as it were, one chord to two bows or closer still. Then He revealed to His servant that which He revealed. The heart of the Prophet was not untrue to that which he saw.” [Quran 53:8-12]

          There is no description of any flying horse. The source of this spiritual vision was his heart only. It is mistakenly considered by some Muslims or other people that a winged horse had carried prophet of Islam (sa) to sky for this ascension to heaven to meat God Almighty. They have confused heaven with sky. Sky is a place that is faraway from earth. Heaven is a realm that exists here everywhere but it is so spiritual that human eyes have no ability to perceive it but human heart has this capacity to connect that realm. All holy scriptures have told that God Almighty is in Heaven and the meanings of this Heaven are spiritual elevation of God’s Holy attributes. A person can achieve spirituality of heart by practicing attributes of God Almighty. God is highly spiritual therefore a physical body or object has no access to Him. A person meets His God on the nature of his heart. The nature of heart possess that spirituality that make it possible for a person to transfer oneself to Him .

        • Greg G.

          Good. You don’t believe the part about the flying horse and the cave dictation.

          All holy scriptures have told that God Almighty is in Heaven and the meanings of this Heaven are spiritual elevation of God’s Holy attributes. A person can achieve spirituality of heart by practicing attributes of God Almighty. God is highly spiritual therefore a physical body or object has no access to Him. A person meets His God on the nature of his heart. The nature of heart possess that spirituality that make it possible for a person to transfer oneself to Him .

          But how do you know the “holy scriptures” are accurate? You don’t need to achieve “God’s Holy attributes” because you could not possibly know what they are even if there was a god. Are these “Holy attributes” even good things? If they are, you should embrace them because they are good without having to pretend that there is a spiritual connection to your imaginary god. You don’t need religion to make you a good person. If you want to be a good person, you are already at the starting point of being a good person. Just continue that. If religion teaches that method is impossible, it is lying.

        • SparklingMoon,

          Each and every word of revelation of the Quran is safe in its original words as had been revealed to Prophet of Islam (sa). The time between Prophet Adam to prophet of Islam is about four thousand years. All previous revelations (in their original form) with some new teachings had been assembled in the Quran and it was informed by God Almighty to all mankind: ”This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favors upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion.” ( Quran 5:4)

          Previous revelations contained two kinds of commandments: (a) Those which,owing to changed conditions and to the universality of the new Revelation, required abrogation. (b)Those containing eternal truths which needed resuscitation so that people might be reminded of the forgotten truth.

          It was, therefore,necessary to abrogate certain portion of those previous Scriptures and bring in their place new ones, and also to restore the lost ones. So,God abrogated some portions of the previous Revelations, substituting them with new and better ones in the Quran, and at the same time re-introduced the missing general spirit of the religious teaching.

          As the Quran is a Final Law for His people therefore He had promised to safeguard the integrity of His Word for all times to come “Verily,it is We Who have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We are its Guardians.”(Quran 15:10)

        • Just cuz? Or is there good reason to accept your historical claims?

        • Greg G.

          These are perfectly circular arguments.

          ”This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favors upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion.” ( Quran 5:4)

          As the Quran is a Final Law for His people therefore He had promised to safeguard the integrity of His Word for all times to come “Verily,it is We Who have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We are its Guardians.”(Quran 15:10)

          We see the same fallacy in the Bile:

          2 Timothy 3:16 (NRSV)
          All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

          The fallacy is accepting those statements.

        • SparklingMoon,

          All these followers Jews Christians and Muslims believe that all prophets of Israel had revelations but they also know that their revelations are not safe in their original words. The descriptions of the Bible show that they are amalgamation of revelations and human narrations.

          The Quran is revealed in Arabic and is safe in its original words. The last thirteen hundred years bear witness to the truth of this prophecy (“Verily,it is We Who have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We are its Guardians.”(Quran 15:10) No idolatrous teachings have ever been able to infiltrate into the holy Quran and there is no logical reason to suppose that this will ever happen in the future. hundreds of thousands of Muslims know the whole of the Quran by heart, thousands of commentaries have been written upon it, its verses are read in Prayers five times every day. It is recited by its followers daily, millions of its copies have been spread throughout the world, and its teachings have become known to the people of every nation. All these things compel sane reason to believe that it is impossible for any kind of interpolation or alteration to ever find its way into the holy Quran. (Ruhanikhazain)

        • Greg G.

          The people who had these “revelations” didn’t know where the sun went at night. They were trying to understand how the world worked but they were off on a tangent heading down a rabbit hole.

          I used to memorize Bible verses when I was a Christian. Jimmy Buffett
          had a greatest hits album called “Songs You Know By
          Heart
          ” and I know most of them by heart. That doesn’t make
          them true. My niece knows several children’s songs.

          Memorizing the Quran and praying five times a day keeps your mind in prison. Every thought you have is forced through your religion. It makes you think those things mean something and you need religion to be a good person. You think a story about a man in a fish for three days is a reasonable explanation. You think that quoting scholars who believe that story is a rational thing to do. That is what religion has done to your mind.

          Try praying four times a day and going through the motions once. Nothing will happen because of it. Try praying to a fly on the wall. You get the same results. Just credit anything good to the kindness of the fly. If something bad happens, attribute it to the times you didn’t pray to the fly. It doesn’t matter, everything you do is circular reasoning.

        • SparklingMoon,

          The people who had these revelations didn’t know where the sun went at night. They were trying to understand how the world worked but they were off on a tangent heading down a rabbit hole.
          ————————————————————
          It is a mistake to search scientific knowledge about physical universe in religious books. There is no need of religious knowledge or purity of heart for Scientific progress. Any person who will meditate about the laws of nature, have its knowledge . The revelation of a prophet mostly deals with moral and spiritual progress of a person in the way of God and a practice to this revelation becomes a source of purity for a human heart.

          There is no doubt that sometimes some hidden facts about universes are also told by All knowing God to make it certain that He is the Creator of this universe. For example in the time of Prophet of Islam (about 1500 years ago ) when he had revelation of the Quran , the human understanding of the nature of the cosmos and the movement or the stillness of the heavenly bodies was extremely primitive and obscure. There is one example from his revelation: ”The mountains that you see, you think they are stationary while they are constantly floating like the floating of clouds. Such is the work of Allah Who made everything firm and strong…” (Quran 27:89)

          In this verse mountains are declared to be in constant motion, and the only logical inference to be drawn from this would be that the earth is also rotating along with them. This verse ends with a lasting tribute to the creative faculty of God, Who has created all things with such firmness that they cannot be dislodged. Anything which cannot be dislodged can never be catapulted out of the earth, to fly alone, leaving the earth behind.

        • adam

          “It is a mistake to search scientific knowledge about physical universe in religious books. ”

          Yes, we understand how it exposes that religion is not based on a scientific core, but an IMAGINARY one like Harry Potter….

          “There is no doubt that sometimes some hidden facts about universes are also told by All knowing God to make it certain that He is the Creator of this universe.”

          Sorry, but you have yet to demonstrate that this “All knowing God’ of yours is anything but IMAGINARY…

          He knows if we find them, and destroy all the horcruxes we’ll be able to kill him. I reckon he’ll stop at nothing to make sure we don’t find the rest. There’s more, one of them is at Hogwarts. -Harry Potter

        • Rudy R

          More liberal interpretations of “hidden facts” in scripture by theistic apologists.

          Anything which cannot be dislodged can never be catapulted out of the earth, to fly alone, leaving the earth behind.

          I guess Allah didn’t foresee the invention of the rocket.

        • SparklingMoon,

          I guess Allah didn’t foresee the invention of the rocket.
          ————————————————————
          It is characteristic of God Almighty alone to know the hidden by virtue of His personal power and His personal condition. From ancient times, those who based themselves upon truth have believed that it is proper for God Almighty that He should know the hidden. This is a personal specialty of His. He has no associate in this attribute as He has no associate in His other attributes. It is, therefore, impossible for anyone to have personal knowledge of the hidden whether he is a Prophet or Reformer or Saint. It is true, however, that favorites and chosen ones are given knowledge of hidden mysteries through revelation. This has been so since ancient times and continues today, but such experience is now confined to the followers of the Holy Prophet of Islam(sa) alone. For example God Almighty, 1400 years ago, told prophet of Islam (sa) about the things that would be a sign for second coming of Messiah such as, the building of numerous canals flowing out of rivers, discovery of minerals from beneath the earth, profusion of worldly knowledge, availability of means for the mass publication of books, invention of a new means of transport— which will render camels useless, make it easy for people to meet and communicate, and facilitate the spread of news and information. (Ruhanikhazain)

        • Rudy R

          OK, you demonstrated you know how to rationalize away the errors in the Qur’an. The Qur’an, like the Bible, is not immune from getting science completely wrong and if the Qur’an had no scientific errors, you would have a more convincing case that it was inspired by the word of your god. But as such, since your god doesn’t know the Earth revolves around the sun and that the moon doesn’t emit light, you can’t make a convincing case he is the creator of the universe.

        • SparklingMoon,

          The Qur’an, like the Bible, is not immune from getting science completely wrong
          —————————————————————–
          The revelation of God Almighty mostly deals with moral and spiritual progress of people and to prepare them to recognize their God in this world for their next journey after physical death. The scientific knowledge has no value for this purpose as no prophet had called their followers towards nature to recognize God. All prophets had advised his followers to improve their moral conditions and to meditate in the love of God about his attributes and to practice them.

          Secondly, the original revelation of the prophets of Israel had certainly no errors and had no contradiction to the laws of nature; working in this universe. Their revelation unfortunately has been mixed with human narrations and explanations with the passage of the time . Revelation and universe both are creation of same All Knowing God Almighty therefore contradiction is impossible

          A reader will find no description in the Quran that is against the laws of nature. The reason is that its words are safe in its original revelation of God . A person may find errors in human explanations of some people ( there are some religious haughty people who prefer their explanations to the real words of revelation) but the safe revelation of the Quran is enough for a person to find truth . I would like to refer you some articles related to the topic ”The Quran and Cosmology — ”Entropy and the Finite Universe” –”The Quran and Extraterrestrial Life ” etc. that are in the book ”Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth by Mirza Tahir Ahmad ” ( free online to read).

        • Greg G.

          Why would an “All Knowing God Almighty” bother to give revelation of “had certainly no errors and had no contradiction to the laws of nature that are working in universe” when he would know (by virtue of being “All Knowing”) that it would be “mixed with human narrations and explanations with the passage of the time”?

          It was not revealed, it was made up, it was faulty from the beginning, and the original was probably less accurate than what we received.

          You shouldn’t accept excuses from indoctrinated scholars. Don’t be gullible.

        • SparklingMoon,

          It was not revealed,it was made up,it was faulty from the beginning,
          ——————————————
          The Holy Quran forcefully asserts that its prophecies and narratives are from the realm of the unseen, it contains prophecies about the future down to the Last Day, and that it is a miracle in respect of its eloquence and beauty of expression. The Holy Quran is the only scripture in the world that proclaims itself to be a miracle. The Holy Quran claimed that it was a unique and miraculous book, and it challenged anyone who considered it to be the word of man to come forward and prove it, but no opponent took up the challenge.

          [17:89] ”Say, ‘If mankind gathered together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they could not produce the like thereof, even though they should help one another.’”

          It is challenged again [11:14] ”Do they say, ‘He has forged it?’ Say, ‘Then bring ten Chapters like it, forged, and call on whom you can beside Allah, if you are truthful.”

          Again [2:24] ”And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then produce a Chapter like it, and call upon your helpers beside Allah, if you are truthful.”

          Just consider, can a person dare to give such a challenge to the whole world, while having cooked the whole thing up on his own, and knowing full well that this knowledge has not come to him from the unseen and to think that no one should be able to accept his challenge and expose him! Therefore there can be no doubt that the Holy Quran is totally composed of the revealed word of God, and that this revelation was a great miracle, for, no one could produce anything like it.

          Secondly, the true criterion is whether the book proves its Divine origin through God’s law of nature and through powerful signs.The Holy Quran is the only book in the world that has shown God and His attributes to be in accord with the same law of nature which is the result of God’s ‘action’ in this world and is imprinted in human nature and conscience. (as other revelations are not safe in their original condition).

          The fact is that only Divine revelation of the Quran has the authority to prove the truth or falsity of past scriptures. Any account confirmed by Divine revelation has to be true, even though some ignorant ones declare it otherwise. Similarly, the account which Divine revelation of the Quran rejects, has to be false, even though some people declare it to be true. (Ruhanikhazain)

        • Rudy R

          Just consider, can a person dare to give such a challenge to the whole world, while having cooked the whole thing up on his own, and knowing full well that this knowledge has not come to him from the unseen and to think that no one should be able to accept his challenge and expose him!

          To answer your question, yes.

        • MNb

          “Just consider, can a person dare to give such a challenge to the whole world, while having cooked the whole thing up on his own, and knowing full well that this knowledge has not come to him from the unseen and to think that no one should be able to accept his challenge and expose him!”
          Yes, a person totally can do that, even while being honest. People are very, very good at deluding themselves.

          “The fact is that only Divine revelation of the Quran has the authority to prove …”

          Divine revelation has no authority to prove anything at all, certainly not as long as muslims don’t have developed a method to settle their theological disputes.

        • Rudy R

          A reader will find no description in the Quran that is against the laws of nature

          Wanna make a bet on that?

        • adam

          We wouldnt need rockets if magical flying horses existed.

        • Greg G.

          For example God Almighty, 1400 years ago, told prophet of Islam (sa) about the things that would be a sign for second coming of Messiah such as, the building of numerous canals flowing out of rivers, discovery of minerals from beneath the earth, profusion of worldly knowledge, availability of means for the mass publication of books, invention of a new means of transport— which will render camels useless, make it easy for people to meet and communicate, and facilitate the spread of news and information.

          Let’s see them. I have seen similar claims like these but the references are very vague so that the reader has to import the knowledge to verse to make it say what you are claiming.

        • SparklingMoon,

          It states in the Quran: “And when the she-camels, ten months pregnant are abandoned.” (Quran81:5) “And He has created horses and mules and asses that you may ride them, and as a source of beauty. And He will create what you do not yet know.” (Quran16:9) As we know people, specially those living in deserts, have now abandoned camels and other animals for travelling. But this prophecy of invention and emergence of new transport systems is on-going as we witness new and faster modes of transportation emerging all the time.

          “And when various people are brought together.” (Quran 81:8) Fast transport systems, telephone, satellite systems and internet have brought so close to each other proving the truthfulness of the holy Quran.

          And when books are spread abroad.” ( Quran 81:11)The invention of printing press and publication houses and consequently spread of books every where is one of the marvellous prophecies of the Quran made in the dark ages of ignorance and illiteracy.

          It states in the Quran: “And by the heaven full of tracks” (51:8) While prophesying about modern transport systems, Quran also foretold the air-traffic system which is an essential part of aviation. A person living in desert 1400 years ago cannot talk about such advance technologies unless revealed to him by God Almighty.

        • Greg G.

          And you have done as I said you would. You are reading into the verses what you want to read, not what anyone would read as prophecy. Giving that much leeway to prophecy allows most anything to be prophecy.

          Abandoning pregnant camels sounds like falling on hard times, not giving them up completely. The second one specifically says equine transports. “And He will create what you do not yet know” is completely vague. You can put anything into that. It doesn’t prophesy anything. Theses passages say nothing about transport systems which were created by mankind without divine intervention.

          “And when various people are brought together” is another completely vague statement. That could mean cities or weddings which were old at the time. You are completely using your imagination to get “fast transport systems, telephone, satellite systems and internet” into the passage.

          “And when books are spread abroad” is another vague statement. Books were spread abroad in Greek eras. You are reading “printing presses” and literacy into it.

          “And by the heaven full of tracks” does not say anything about aviation. That is coming from your own imagination.

          None of the passages say what you claim they say. You had to stretch them out of shape. Jews and Christians do the same thing with the Bible. Hindus do it with their holy writings, too. Have you seen what people do with the nonsense Nostradamus wrote? People make vague statements say whatever their imagination can make them say. The method is not reliable except to make those people look gullible.

          Since you have been reading the Quran so incredulously for so long, you should step back and start looking at it critically.

          My prophecy was better than any of the ones you claimed. Look how specific mine was:

          Let’s see them. I have seen similar claims like these but the references are very vague so that the reader has to import the knowledge to verse to make it say what you are claiming.

          You imported knowledge into vague statements. It wasn’t a real prophecy. It is just what everybody does who claims ancient writings contain prophecies.

        • SparklingMoon,

          I would like to refer you a short (60 pages) book ”pdf Lecture Sialkot ” that is related to the topic. (free online to read).

        • Greg G.

          I have read about 10% of it so far. It is very much like the claims of Christianity where they pick out a unique feature of the religion and tout that as the distinguishing characteristic that makes it the one true religion. The book points out that Hinduism worships idols as if worshiping a physical idol is wrong. Christians often do a similar thing by worshiping their Bibles. But Muslims are guilty of the same in their worship of the Quran. Some Muslims execute people for accidentally burning a page of a Quran. The whole Islamic rejection of idol worship seems to have become a metaphorical idol itself taken far more seriously than the idol worshippers take their own idols.

          On page 8 I find:

          Even the Christians and the Jews do agree that, counting from the time of Adam, the present millennium is the seventh.

          It is hard to take this seriously when it leans on Young Earth Creationism.

          I’ll finish it later. Is there anything you find particularly persuasive in it?

        • SparklingMoon,

          Is there anything you find particularly persuasive in it?
          ————————————————————————–
          There are many descriptions but following some I would like to refer you to know some facts about religion:

          ”The scriptures of all the Prophets (as )as well as the Holy Quran (Verily, a day with thy Lord is as a thousand years of your reckoning.—Al-Hajj, 22:48) show that from our Adam to the end, God has ordained the age of the world to be seven thousand years, with a thousand year periods both for light and for darkness. (page 11)

          ”these are the signs of the latter days which have been fulfilled word for word, thus proving that the present era is the last era of the world. (page13 -14)

          ” human civilization and dispensation have a cyclic life. The progeny of Adam also has a life cycle of seven thousand years. Only God knows how many Adams have passed away and how many have yet to come. (page 15)

          ”The question naturally arises as to why the Promised Messiah was to appear from among the Muslims.’ (page 16)

          ”God has sent me in the spirit and character of Jesus” (page17)

          ”Jesus came at the turn of the fourteenth century after Moses (as), so did the last Messiah appear at the turn of the fourteenth century after the Holy Prophet of Islam (sa).” (page 20)

          ”The God to Whom I invite is very Gracious, Merciful, Modest, True, and Faithful. He bestows His mercy on the humble ones. You too should be faithful and pray with all sincerity and faith so that He may bestow His mercy on you…. God will show miracles to those who supplicate and those who ask will be blessed with extraordinary grace. Prayer comes from God and to Him it returns. Through prayer God becomes as close to you as your very life.” (page 31)

          ”The first blessing of prayer is that it brings about a holy change in a person, as a consequence of which God also brings about a transformation in His attributes.His attributes are indeed immutable, but for such a transformed person He shows a different manifestation of which the world knows nothing.” (page 32)

          ”It is sheer arrogance to believe that one does not stand in need of God’s Messengers and Prophets. Of course it is God Who creates man, but look how He has also made one man the source of another man’s birth! Hence, just like the physical father through whom man is born, there is also the spiritual father who is the source of spiritual birth.” (page37-38)

          ”My advent in the present age is not for the reformation of the Muslims alone, but I have come to reform the people of all the three religions: Muslims, Christians and Hindus. Just as God has appointed me the Promised Messiah for the Muslims and Christians, so am I the Avatar for the Hindus. For the past twenty years or so, I have been proclaiming that just as I have appeared in the spirit of the Messiah son of Mary (as) for the purpose of removing sins which have filled the earth, so have I come as Raja Krishna— one of the greatest Avatars of the Hindu faith. In other words, I am the same person by virtue of spiritual reality.” (page 39)

          ”Religion does not teach the vilification of holy men, Prophets and Messengers (as), for such things are against the very purpose of religion, which is that one should cleanse one’s self of all evil, enable one’s spirit to lie forever prostrate at the threshold of God Almighty, and become so imbued with conviction, love, true knowledge, truth, and faithfulness that a genuine transformation is effected and a heavenly life is attained in this very world.” (page 47) (Lecture Sialkot by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed of Quadian India )

        • MNb

          “show that from our Adam to the end, God has ordained the age of the world to be seven thousand years”
          Thanks for showing that you reject science.
          The Earth is more than 4 billion years old; the Universe more than 13 billion years. Any source that claims 7 000 years is just ridiculous. You thinking this is authorative are ridiculous as well.
          Here, some muslims who unlike you do accept scientific consensus:

          http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/1560/
          http://www.cosmology-theory-evolution-quran.com

          As long as you don’t manage to settle your theological disputes with them nobody here will take you seriously. You’re worse than wrong – you’re irrelevant.

        • Greg G.

          ”The scriptures of all the Prophets (as )as well as the Holy Quran (Verily, a day with thy Lord is as a thousand years of your reckoning.—Al-Hajj, 22:48) show that from our Adam to the end, God has ordained the age of the world to be seven thousand years, with a thousand year periods both for light and for darkness. (page 11)

          That is taken from the Bible:
          2 Peter 3:8
          But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

          Psalm 90:4
          A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

          But to an eternal being, it could be a billion billion years is like a day. The “thousand year” periods is based on an arbitrary number. Secondly, there was no Adam and Eve. Humans have had civilizations for more than seven thousand years already.

          ”these are the signs of the latter days which have been fulfilled word for word, thus proving that the present era is the last era of the world. (page13 -14)

          Christians have been saying this for two thousand years. Paul expected it to be within his lifetime.

          1 Thessalonians 4:15
          15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.

          You can find some of the apocalyptic failures HERE and another list HERE.

          ” human civilization and dispensation have a cyclic life. The progeny of Adam also has a life cycle of seven thousand years. Only God knows how many Adams have passed away and how many have yet to come. (page 15)

          About an hour’s drive from my house is a hill near an outcropping of some of the best flint in North America that shows that it was used from about nine thousand years ago to a few hundred years ago. That refutes the claims of seven thousand year cycles.

          ”The question naturally arises as to why the Promised Messiah was to appear from among the Muslims.’ (page 16)

          That is only according to Muslim writings. Hebrew writings have a Hebrew Messiah. Christian writings say it will their hero, Jesus Christ. It is funny that each of the religions claim the Messiah. They are recycling each other’s jokes.

          ”God has sent me in the spirit and character of Jesus” (page17)

          HERE is a list of some of the people who have claimed to be Jesus over the past 250 years.HERE is a list of some of the people who have claimed to be the messiah over the past 2000 years. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is listed at least three times.

          ”Jesus came at the turn of the fourteenth century after Moses (as), so did the last Messiah appear at the turn of the fourteenth century after the Holy Prophet of Islam (sa).” (page 20)

          Matthew 1:17 “So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; from David to the exile to Babylon fourteen generations; and from the carrying away to Babylon to the Christ, fourteen generations.”

          Matthew makes a big deal about the number fourteen, too. It seems that “David” in Hebrew numerology adds up to 14 (DWD = 4 + 6 + 4). But Matthew gets one sequence right but omits four generations in the second sequence, then counts the Babylonian exile as a generation as he lists only 13 names. Why would the Babylonian exile be an important marker? Just because it happened to be near where Matthew needed a marker.

          Mirza counts back to get fourteen centuries. Why are centuries the unit of time? It’s just a round number for the base 10 counting system but so what? Why Moses? Archaeologists have dug up the Sinai looking for evidence of Moses but have found none. The evidence shows that the Hebrews lived along side the Canaanites, the only apparent difference between their cultures is that some had pig bones and some didn’t.

          So the Moses to Jesus timeline is fictional because Moses is a fictional story and I think Jesus is, too.

          ”The God to Whom I invite is very Gracious, Merciful, Modest, True, and Faithful. He bestows His mercy on the humble ones. You too should be faithful and pray with all sincerity and faith so that He may bestow His mercy on you…. God will show miracles to those who supplicate and those who ask will be blessed with extraordinary grace. Prayer comes from God and to Him it returns. Through prayer God becomes as close to you as your very life.” (page 31)

          ”The first blessing of prayer is that it brings about a holy change in a person, as a consequence of which God also brings about a transformation in His attributes.His attributes are indeed immutable, but for such a transformed person He shows a different manifestation of which the world knows nothing.” (page 32)

          If prayer worked, there would be no war. The humble would ask for food for everyone so there would be no poverty. Claims about prayer sound wonderful but they don’t stand to a moment’s scrutiny.

          ”It is sheer arrogance to believe that one does not stand in need of God’s Messengers and Prophets. Of course it is God Who creates man, but look how He has also made one man the source of another man’s birth! Hence, just like the physical father through whom man is born, there is also the spiritual father who is the source of spiritual birth.” (page37-38)

          It is arrogance to claim that one’s spiritual father is God especially when the reasoning for a spiritual father is through a weak analogy.

          ”My advent in the present age is not for the reformation of the Muslims alone, but I have come to reform the people of all the three religions: Muslims, Christians and Hindus. Just as God has appointed me the Promised Messiah for the Muslims and Christians, so am I the Avatar for the Hindus. For the past twenty years or so, I have been proclaiming that just as I have appeared in the spirit of the Messiah son of Mary (as) for the purpose of removing sins which have filled the earth, so have I come as Raja Krishna— one of the greatest Avatars of the Hindu faith. In other words, I am the same person by virtue of spiritual reality.” (page 39)

          Quite a specious claim for a person who believed Adam and Moses actually existed.

        • SparklingMoon,

          Sorry I have mistakenly answered here therefore have deleted it

        • Greg G pointed out helpful specifics about why your open-mouthed wonder at the Koran’s marvelous prophecy is poorly placed.

          Show me a scientific discovery that was first uncovered in the Koran rather than in a scientist’s head and I’ll begin to see your point.

        • SparklingMoon,

          Show me a scientific discovery that was first uncovered in the Koran rather than in a scientist’s head and I’ll begin to see your point.
          ———————————————————–
          The time the Holy Quran was revealed, the human understanding of the nature of the cosmos and the movement or the stillness of the heavenly bodies was extremely primitive and obscure. This is no longer the case, as our knowledge of the universe has considerably advanced and expanded by the present age.

          Some of the theories relating to the creation of the universe have been verified as facts, whereas some others are still being explored. The concept of the expanding universe belongs to the former category, and has been universally accepted by the scientific community as ‘fact’. This discovery was first made by Edwin Hubble in the 1920s. Yet some about fourteen centuries before, the Creator of the universe had clearly had told in His revelation of the Quran. As it states in the Quran:

          ”And the heaven We built with Our own powers ( Arabic word ‘aydin ‘ ) and indeed We go on expanding it ( Arabic word ‘musi’un ‘).(Quran 51:48)

          The description of this concept of the continuous expansion of the universe is exclusive to the Quran. The discovery that the universe is constantly expanding is of prime significance to scientists, because it helps create a better understanding of how the universe was initially created. It clearly explains the stage by stage process of creation, in a manner which perfectly falls into step with the theory of the Big Bang. The Quran goes further and describes the entire cycle of the beginning, the end and the return again to a similar beginning. The first step of creation as related in the Quran accurately describes the event of the Big Bang in the following words: ”Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass ( Arabic word ‘ratqan’), then We clove them asunder (Arabic word ‘fataqna’)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (Quran 21:31)

          In this verse the Arabic words ‘ratqan’ (closed-up mass), and ‘fataqna’ (We clove them asunder), carry the basic message of the whole verse. Authentic Arabic lexiconn (LANE, E.W. (1984) Arabic—English Lexicon. Islamic Text Society, William & Norgate, Cambridge.) give two meanings of Arabic word ‘Ratqan’, that have great relevance to the topic under discussion. One meaning is ‘the coming together of something and the consequent infusion into a single entity’ and the second meaning is ‘total darkness’. Both these meanings are significantly applicable. Taken together, they offer an apt description of the singularity of a black hole. ( Quran and Cosmology by Mirza Tahir Ahmad)

        • Only in hindsight (that is, with the knowledge given to us by science) can you see truth in that Koranic verse. As I said, we’ve learned nothing first from the Koran or any holy book. Only science does that.

          Your interpretation of 21:31 is odd. The heavens and earth were bundled together and “We” clove them in two, and we made everything from water? How, from that, do you get the Big Bang 14 billion years ago, stellar creation of heavy elements, then condensation into a solar system, and finally evolution of life? Who’s the “We”? And it ends with, “Will they not then believe?”

        • Greg G.

          This verse ends with a lasting tribute to the creative faculty of God, Who has created all things with such firmness that they cannot be dislodged. Anything which cannot be dislodged can never be catapulted out of the earth, to fly alone, leaving the earth behind.

          Science has found that the moon was created when another body collided with the Earth, which dislodged part of the Earth itself to create the moon. Meteorites strike the moon which can catapult debris into space. So the passage is falsified.

          If that is the only logical inference to be drawn from the passage, why did nobody infer that before science showed it. What logical inferences were made until then? You were right when you said, “It is a mistake to search scientific knowledge about physical universe in religious books.” Perhaps someone felt an earthquake while on a mountain and wrote the verse to describe the experience..

          It is possible to contrive systems of ideas that have no internal contradicitions. A system could be self-justified. Those systems could still contradict one another. That means that not all of them are true. So being self-consistent and self-justified do not necessarily make the system consistent with reality.

          Science tests whether it is consistent with reality. It tries to understand the underlying causes of observations and recombines the possible understandings in tests to see if those understandings are valid. Religion cannot test itself to see if it corresponds to reality. The best it can do is adopt what science teaches and look for a parallel verse in scripture to say it knew it all along. The verses are not really about the scientific fact but is vague enough to interpret any way necessary. You should roll your eyes when a religious person tries to do that kind of reinterpretation.

          You have been indoctrinated with your religion but it is possible to set aside the indoctrination and subjectivity to view your religion as objectively as any other religion. This means taking your thumb off the scale when you weigh them. Start with what you know without religious interpretation and other objective facts and see where it leads.

        • SparklingMoon,

          Science tests whether it is consistent with reality. It tries to understand the underlying causes of observations and recombines the possible understandings in tests to see if those understandings are valid. Religion cannot test itself to see if it corresponds to reality.
          ——————————————————-
          God Almighty has divided His wonderful universe into three parts. First, the world which is manifest and can be felt through the eyes and the ears and other physical senses and through ordinary instruments. Secondly, the world which is hidden and which can be understood through reason and conjecture. Thirdly, the world which is hidden beyond hidden, which is so imperceptible that few are aware of it. That world is entirely unseen, cannot be reached by reason and is pure conjecture. It is disclosed only through visions and revelation and inspiration and not by any other means.

          As is well established, it is the way of Allah that for the discovery of the first two worlds that we have mentioned He has bestowed upon man different types of faculties and powers. In the same way He has appointed a means for man for the discovery of the third world and that means is revelation, inspiration and visions which are not wholly suspended at any time. Indeed, those who comply with the conditions for achieving them have, throughout, been their recipients and will continue to be such.

          As man has been created for unlimited progress and God Almighty is free from every deficiency, miserliness and holding-back, it would be an unworthy thought that He put into the heart of man the eagerness to learn the secrets of all the three worlds and yet has deprived him wholly of the knowledge of the means of acquiring knowledge of the third world. This impels wise people to believe in the permanent need of inspiration and visions and they do not confine revelation, like Aryas, to the four Rishis beside whom it is impossible for a fifth person to arrive at that excellence.

          Instead, wise people, believing in the absolute bounty of God Almighty, deem the door of inspiration ever open and do not confine it to any country or religion. It is true, however, that it is limited to the straight path by treading along which these blessings can be achieved, inasmuch as it is necessary for the achievement of everything to follow the rules and methods conformity to which is necessary for its achievement. People do not deny the wonders of the world of visions.

          They have to admit that the absolute Benefactor, Who has bestowed upon man faculties and powers for the discovery of every little matter in the first world, would not deprive man of the means of discovering the grand affairs of the third world through which a true and perfect relationship with God Almighty can be established, and true and certain understanding having been achieved the lights of heaven become manifest in this very world.

          This method is also open, like the methods of discovering the other two worlds, and true people adopt it forcefully and follow it and obtain its fruits. The wonders of the third world are numberless and in comparison with the other two worlds are like the sun in comparison with a grain of poppyseed.

          To insist that the mysteries of that world should be wholly revealed through reason would be like shutting one’s eyes and insisting that visible things should become perceptible through the sense of smell. The wonders of the third world totally frustrate reason. No one need be surprised at the creation of souls for in this very world such mysteries are revealed to those who have experience of visions, that reason wholly fails to penetrate to their reality. (Surma Chashm Arya by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad)

        • Greg G.

          HERE you wrote:

          Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has written: ”The truth of a Prophet might be known in three ways: First, through reason.

          Now you have Mirza Ghulam Ahmad saying:

          God Almighty has divided His wonderful universe into three parts. First, the world which is manifest and can be felt through the eyes and the ears and other physical senses and through ordinary instruments. Secondly, the world which is hidden and which can be understood through reason and conjecture.

          The three levels of the universe goes back to the ancients. They didn’t even know where the sun went at night. They didn’t understand dreams. They tried to interpret drug-induced visions to understand the universe. The three level universe was wishful thinking. They had no way distinguish one random imaginary thought from a revelation from an imagianry angel.

          The three level universe cannot even pass the first hurdle that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad put out himself.

          For reason to work, you need premises that are true and a valid argument structure. When you must introduce things that are “hidden and which can be understood through reason”, you should become skeptical of all that follows. You can throw away all the previous talk about reason.

        • But I’m sure Moon will be consistent. Since the argument (circular or not) is compelling in the Koran, it must also be in 2 Timothy.

        • MNb

          Sura 17:1 “Glory to ((Allah)) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)”
          To call these two mosques spiritual is only your personal interpretation. The details about the story stem from Muhammad al-Bukhari and Sahih al-Bukhari. They produced one of the three most trusted collections of hadith. You are fully aware of this, so thanks for confirming that you’re as dishonest as any christian apologist by presenting your very own personal interpretation as fact. Of course you do this because you don’t want to answer the crucial question:

          How do you decide that your personal interpretation is the correct one and the hadith by the Al-Bukharis is incorrect?
          What’s your method?
          Your big fat thumb, I assume.

        • SparklingMoon,

          To call these two mosques spiritual is only your personal interpretation. The details about the story stem from Muhammad al-Bukhari and Sahih al-Bukhari. They produced one of the three most trusted collections of hadith. You are fully aware of this, so thanks for confirming that you’re as dishonest as any christian apologist by presenting your very own personal interpretation as fact.
          ————————————————————
          There are two different events Miraj ( spiritual ascension to heaven) Isra (Night Journey to Jerusalem) that happened in different times. These both spiritual journeys of Prophet of Islam are described in different suras of the Quran; Miraj in described in sura al Najam 8-12 and Isra in described in Bani Israel (17.1) Miraj took place during the 5th year of his Prophet hood (when Prophet of Islam (sa) was resting at night near the house of Kaba in Mecca ) and ”Isra” in the year of 13th when he was in the house of his relative Ume Hani.

          ‘Miraj” is given name to that spiritual journey when the Holy Prophet had a vision of celestial scenes and God Almighty revealed His Word when he (prophet of Islam) was on the uppermost horizon) and God Almighty bowed down to meet him(then Prophet (sa) came down to mankind). This condition of nearness of prophet of Islam on one side to God Almighty and on the authorised to his mankind has been described in the Quran by this simile: ‘So that he became, as it were, the one chord of two bows or closer still. (Quran 53:8-12)

          The other event ‘ Isra’ (Spiritual Night Journey to Jerusalem) has different details as during this vision Prophet of Islam met Adam and all other prophets and led them in prayer in the Holy House of Jerusalem. It all happened in vision as all previous prophets were not physically there. It is also told by Prophet of Islam (sa) that during the Night Journey to Jerusalem (Isra), he saw ( this world) in the form of an old woman, (a person standing on one side of the road). There Gabriel presented him with three cups containing water, milk and wine. The Prophet took the cup containing milk and drank it and refused to accept the other two. Upon this Gabriel said to him, “Thou hast indeed, chosen the right course which is in perfect harmony with a pure, unsullied nature. If thou hadst accepted water or wine, thou and thine followers would have been lost.” Then Adam and the other Prophets were presented to him, and the Holy Prophet led them in Prayer. After this Gabriel explained to him that the old woman he saw on the way was an embodied representation of the life of this world and only as much was left of the life of the world as was left of the life of that old woman.

          These descriptions serve as a key to resolve this whole allegory. It gives the most reliable and correct account of the Isra. It shows that the Journey to Jerusalem was no physical act but only a vision for it is only things seen in visions that need interpretation and explanation.

        • MNb

          It’s still your personal interpretation. So I just repeat my question:

          How do you decide that your personal interpretation is the correct one and the hadith by the Al-Bukharis is incorrect?
          What’s your method?

          Not answering this makes me assume it’s your big fat thumb indeed.

        • SparklingMoon,

          The tradition about ‘Isra’ (Spiritual Night Journey to Jerusalem) by Ibn Jarir on the authority of Anas bin Millik is briefly as follows:”When the Archangel Gabriel brought the Buraq to the Holy Prophet (of Islam), he mounted it, and had gone only a short distance, when he saw an old woman. The Prophet asked Gabriel who she was, but Gabriel gave no answer to his question; on the contrary he told him not to ask questions, just as Moses in his Mirag(Spiritual Ascension) was told not to put unnecessary questions (Quran18: 71)

          After the Prophet (of Islam) had gone a little further he saw a man calling him by name from across the road In order to invite his attention to himself. But Gabriel asked him again not to heed his call. When the Prophet (of Islam) had proceeded a little further, he met a party of men who greeted him with the greeting of peace. Gabriel told him to return their greeting. After this the Prophet reached the Holy House in Jerusalem. There Gabriel presented him with three cups containing water, milk and wine. The Prophet took the cup containing milk and drank it and refused to accept the other two. Upon this Gabriel said to him, “Thou hast) indeed, chosen the right course which is in perfect harmony with a pure, unsullied nature. If thou hadst accepted water or wine, thou and thine followers would have been lost.” Then Adam and the other Prophets were presented to him, and the Holy Prophet led them in Prayer. After this Gabriel explained to him that the old woman he saw on the way was an embodied representation of the life of this world and only as much was left of the life of the world as was left of the life of that old woman. As for the person who called him from across the road, he was Iblis, the enemy of God. The party of men who greeted him were the Prophets Abraham, Moses and Jesus (Ibn Jarir).

          This Vision of ‘ Isra ‘ of the the Prophet of Islam(sa) implied a great prophecy. His journey to the Distant Mosque (Alaqsa) meant his Emigration to Medina where he was to build a Mosque which was destined to become later the Centre of all Faiths and Dispensations and the Holy Prophet’s seeing himself in the Vision leading other Prophets of God in Prayers signified that the New Faith- Islam -was not to remain confined to the place of its birth but was to spread all over the world and the followers of all religions were to join its fold.

        • SparklingMoon,

          How do you decide that your personal interpretation is the correct one and the hadith by the Al-Bukharis is incorrect?
          ————————————————————-
          Religion is a field of God Almighty and all related matters are decided in the light of His Holy revelation. I have no personal argument or interpretation except that is confirmed by the Quran because it is the Book of God than which we have no more conclusive and certain statement. It is the Word of God and is free from all doubt and speculation.

          Hadiths are those traditions which were compiled from the statements of diverse narrators a century and a half after the Prophet of Islam (sa).The distinction between Sunnah and Hadith is that Sunnah is a continuous practice which was started by the Prophet of Islam (sa). It is only next to the Quran in its certainty. As the Prophet of Islam (sa) was commissioned for the propagation and practice of the Quran, he was also commissioned for establishing the Sunnah. As the Holy Quran is certain so is the continuous Sunnah which he practised. Both these tasks were performed by the Holy Prophet (sa) as his duty.

          On the other hand, the Prophet of Islam (sa) did not have the Hadith recorded in his presence nor did he make any arrangement for its compilation. There is no doubt that most of the compilers of Hadith were very pious and righteous. They tested the accuracy of Ahadith as far as it was possible.

          If the purport of a Hadith is not opposed to the Book of Allah, it would be accepted as authoritative, but we will not accept an interpretation of a Hadith which is opposed to the clear text of the Holy Quran. So far as possible, we shall try to interpret a Hadith so that it should be in accord with the clear text of the Book of Allah, but if we come across a Hadith which is opposed to the text of the Holy Quran, and it cannot be interpreted in any other way, we would reject it as spurious, inasmuch as God, the Glorious, has said: ”In what discourse apart from Allah and His commandments will they believe?” This means that if the Holy Qur’an is conclusive and positive about a matter and its meaning is clear, a believer should not accept a Hadith which is clearly opposed to it.

        • MNb

          “I have no personal argument or interpretation except that is confirmed by the Quran”
          The muslims who accept the hadiths by the Al Bukhari’s make exactly the same claim. So yes, it’s your personal interpretation.

          “It is the Word of God and is free from all doubt and speculation.”
          Then I invite you to discuss this issue with those muslims who accept the hadiths by the Al Bukhari’s and conclude that Mohammed actually rode the sky on his horse Buraq. If doubt and speculation are not possible you will after a while settle on consensus. When you’re done, come back.
          Maybe then you’ll be willing to answer my question:

          “How do you decide that your personal interpretation is the correct one and the hadith by the Al-Bukharis is incorrect?”
          because thus far you haven’t. Neither have those muslims who accept the hadiths by the Al Bukhari’s. This

          “we will not accept an interpretation of a Hadith which is opposed to the clear text of the Holy Quran.”

          doesn’t work because the muslims who accept the hadiths by the Al Bukhari’s make exactly the same claim (yup, I actually have asked a few).
          So go discuss this with them, reach consensus (must be inevitable according to you own words) and tell me how you reached it.
          I’ll be sitting on the fench, but won’t hold my breath.

        • SparklingMoon,

          You mentioned that Jesus had a 3 year ministry.
          ———————————————————-
          I have nowhere mentioned that Jesus had a 3 years ministry. According to my knowledge he had ministry of 120 years. Let it be noted that though Christians believe that Jesus (peace be on him) after his arrest through the betrayal by Judas Iscariot, and crucifixion — and resurrection — went to heaven, yet, from the Holy Bible, it appears that this belief of theirs is altogether wrong. Matthew (chapter 12, verse 40) says that just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so the Son of Man shall be three days and three nights in the bowels of the earth. Now it is clear that Jonah did not die in the belly of the fish; the utmost that happened was that he was in a swoon or a fit of fainting. The holy books of God bear witness that Jonah, by the grace of God, remained alive in the belly of the fish, and came out alive; and his people ultimately accepted him. If then Jesus (on whom be peace) had died in the belly of the ‘fish’, what resemblance could there be between a dead man and the one who was alive, and how could a living one be compared with one dead? The truth rather is, that as Jesus was a true prophet and as he knew that God, whose beloved he was, would save him from an accursed death, he made a prophecy in the form of a parable, revealed to him by God, in which he hinted that he would not die on the Cross, nor would he give up the ghost on the accursed wood; on the contrary, like the prophet Jonah, he would only pass through a state of swoon. In the parable he had also hinted that he would come out of the bowels of the earth and would then join the people and, like Jonah, would be honoured by them. So this prophecy too was fulfilled; for Jesus, coming out of the bowels of the earth, went to his tribes who lived in the eastern countries, Kashmir and Tibet, etc. The ten tribes of the Israelites who 721 years before Jesus, had been taken prisoner from Samaria by Shalmaneser, King of Assur, and had been taken away by him. Ultimately, these tribes came to India and settled in various parts of that country. Jesus at all events must have made this journey; for the divine object underlying his advent was that he should meet the lost Jews who had settled in different parts of India; the reason being that these in fact were the lost sheep of Israel who had given up even their ancestral faith in these countries, and most of whom had adopted Buddhism, relapsing, gradually into idolatry. Dr. Bernier, on the authority of a number of learned people, states in his Travels that the Kashmiris in reality are Jews who in the time of the dispersal in the days of the King of Assur had migrated to this country.

          According to Travels in the Moghul Empire by Fracois Bernier (Constable, London, 1891): ”There are however many marks of Judaism to be found in this country. On entering the Kingdom after crossing the Peer-Punchal mountains, the inhabitants in the frontier villages struck me as resembling Jews. Their countenances and manners, and that indescribable peculiarity which enables a traveller to distinguish the inhabitants of different nations, all seemed to belong to that ancient people. You are not to ascribe what I say to mere fancy, the Jewish appearance of these villagers having been remarked by our Father, the Jesuit, and some other Europeans long before I visited Kashmir. (Page 930-932).

        • Greg G.

          In http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2015/05/christianity-becomes-an-african-religion-islam-overtakes-christianity-and-other-upcoming-changes/#comment-2042587468 you said “Therefore, Jesus (peace be upon him) also, after a ministry of three years,” You then added something about an additional ministry. The 3 years part comes from the Gospel of John which has Jesus going to 3 Passover celebrations in Jerusalem. Mark has the Jews getting mad at Jesus for the “Cleansing of the Temple” tantrum. John has Jesus do that in his first visit but the Jews don’t decide to kill him until after the raising of Lazarus.

          The Jonah story is something else you should be skeptical of. One doesn’t live for three days in the belly of a fish or a whale for three days even if in a coma. Besides, the story only has Jesus in the belly of the Earth for two nights, so the prophecy failed. That was just Matthew making up stuff from the OT scriptures. You should really step back and look at these religious claims rationally.

          When Alexander the Great went into India,the Silk Road trade route was opened. Religious ideas were passed back and forth from the Greek Empire to the Far East. The Buddhists adopted Greek practices for making statues, even. The Silk Road has been active for nearly 2500 years.

          But it is not just spices, fabrics, and religious ideas that were traded. Genetics were exchanged as well.

        • SparklingMoon,

          This description means three years ministry of Jesus before cross in Jerusalem.

          There is available an interesting book ‘Jesus in India’ free online to read. (Chapter 4th – section 2 – Evidence from books on Buddhism)

        • Greg G.

          But the source the Gospel of John used is the Gospel of Mark and it does not have three years. It is a matter of months. But the Epistles have no ministry at all. The whole Jesus ministry idea was made up after Jerusalem went up in smoke.

          There have been many people who have claimed to be Jesus over the past two thousand years. I expect it would have been lucrative to do so in India at many times. They still fall for that sort of thing in India. See Sathya Sai Baba.

        • SparklingMoon,

          There have been many people who have claimed to be Jesus over the past two thousand years. I expect it would have been lucrative to do so in India at many times. They still fall for that sort of thing in India. See Sathya Sai Baba.
          ———————————————–
          Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has written: ”The truth of a Prophet might be known in three ways: First, through reason. It needs to be considered whether reason affirms that a Prophet or reformer should appear at the time when a Prophet or a Messenger claims to have come, and whether the condition of mankind demands such a reformer. Secondly, the prophecies of previous Prophets should be studied whether any of them had prophesied concerning his appearance or concerning the appearance of a Prophet at the time of his advent. Thirdly, it should be considered whether there is Divine help or heavenly support for his claim. These three conditions have been laid down from ancient times for testing the claim of a true commissioned one of God. God has had mercy upon you and has established all three conditions in my support and it is up to you to accept me or not.” (Lecture Sialkot)

          It is claimed by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad: ”The God Who has manifested Himself to all the Prophets, and appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai and appeared to Jesus on Mount Seir and shone forth to Hadrat Muhammad on Mount Paran, the same Mighty and Holy God has manifested Himself to me. He has talked to me and has said: I am the High Being to establish Whose worship all the Prophets were sent. I alone am the Creator and the Master and have no associate. I am not subject to birth or death.” (British Government and Jihad)

          He said: ”I am that person, who was to come from God at the turn of the century for revival of the faith. The purpose was that I should re-establish the faith which had disappeared from the earth, and pull mankind towards reform and righteousness and truthfulness through the power and strength that God had bestowed upon me and through the magnetic power of His hand. I was also destined to correct their doctrinal errors and to reform their conduct. ” (Tadhkirat-us-Shahadatain)

          He has written: ”Disregard for the rights of God’s creation and the murder of innocent people have both become a part of the Muslims’ beliefs. These barbaric people have killed thousands of innocent people because of this erroneous point of view. Disregard for the Creator’s rights has also reached its apex. It has become a part of the Christian faith that Jesus (as), the Messiah, is God and worthy of worship by human beings and angels. There are three beings in the Trinity according to their belief but, in practice, they supplicate to and worship only the Messiah. Both of these violations—against the rights of God’s creation and against those of the Creator have reached such a height that it is difficult to tell which one exceeds the other. Therefore, God named me the Messiah in relation to the rights of His creation and sent me as the avatar of Jesus( as) the Messiah. Similarly, in relation to the rights of the Creator, He named me Muhammad and Ahmad, and sent me as the avatar of the Holy Prophet(sa).” (British Government and Jihad)

          One of the earliest revelations vouchsafed to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was: ”I shall carry thy message to the ends of the earth.” At the time of the revelation, he was not widely known even in his own hometown and he lacked altogether all normal means of publicity and propaganda. At that time, Qadian had not yet found a place on the maps and did not even possess a telegraph office, was not connected with the railway system of the province, and could not be reached by a metalled road. The nearest railway station and telegraph office were at a distance of 11 miles, a journey to which occupied the better part of three hours. Despite all this lack of normal facilities, his message in last hundred years, spread to the farthest corners of the earth and the prophecy just mentioned has been, and continues to be, fulfilled in an astonishing manner.

        • MNb

          You didn’t answer my question. How fat is your big thumb exactly?

  • Heather

    Oh my FSM! I could be wrong. I have a hard time distinguishing between all these stupid religions…

    Do I see a Christian and a Muslim arguing over each other’s holy books on an Atheist blog?

    • Bring the popcorn!

      • BlackMamba44

        I had to log in just so I could upvote!! LOL!! I ate my popcorn too early.

  • Maoh

    We are also going to see a great drop in religious prestige as well. Atheism tends to catch on quicker with the successful and educated. Eventually, it will reach a tipping point when Christianity becomes primarily associated with poverty by a majority of society.

    • Ceirwyn

      Living in the poor religious south, I’d say Christianity and it’s morals, when practiced, are about the biggest reason to stay in the region. It has strong, positive values that work to make society better. Not so with Islam. Islam is too violent and selfish to benefit society.

      • I don’t think it works that way. Poor conditions encourage Christianity as a medicine, but there’s good evidence that Christianity encourages those poor conditions. Look at rankings of states by social traits (homicide, teen pregnancy, literacy rates, life expectancy, etc.). Then look at the rankings by religiosity. The worse the social conditions, the stronger the hold by Christianity.

        The comparison of European countries vs. the US tells the same story: poor social conditions correlate to higher religiosity. I’ve written more here.

        Does Christianity simply step in when conditions are poor? Or does higher belief make conditions poor?

      • Truman Golden

        obviously, living in the poor south is reason enough for us to believe you are badly educated about the world and other religion, hence you distorted views on islam and the secular world.
        the south is poor, racist and violent because of christianity.

        • Ceirwyn

          Oh? and what social justice and wonders has Islam ever brought about? Do tell.

  • A concern that I’ve seen expressed a lot is the “hollowing out effect”– that society is going to become more and more divided into a far-right fundamentalist Christian group that wishes use government edicts to enforce religious law and views non-Christians as subhumans to be squashed, a far-right fundamentalist Islam that’s virtually identical, and– well– everybody else. I’m not quite sure what to make of that concern. While that’s unlikely to happen in much of the word, some nations could be an exception.

  • Its Obvious

    I think you missed the real 800 lb gorilla. China. Unlike Islam which wants to be the government via Sharia, Christianity is growing rapidly.

    Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, give to God what is Gods. That doesn’t work with Islam. That is paramount for growth in China.

    Plus Islam’s birth rate is starting to drop precipitously. Plus the worlds largest Christian nation is Brazil is it not? China will soon surpass that.

    • China is a wild card. Maybe that will be another source of new converts for Christianity, maybe not. Still, the birth rate in Islam is higher.

      Either way, the days of high growth will soon be over, and each religion will have to try to win by making a superior logical case. Making new babies is easy, but winning this intellectual contest will be far more difficult.

  • Riz Asper

    The PEW research also outlines Islam is gaining more net converts then Christianity; the reason Muslim population is growing as the majority of Muslims are young and will marry and have babies not necessarily because they are having more babies….this article is slightly biased against Islam

    • The Pew study says that Muslims do have more babies (higher fertility rate), though the rates for both Muslims and Christians are dropping.

    • KO_bae

      I think you’re right. Plus Muslims are dying at an incredibly disproportionate rate in war-torn regions of the world, not to mention natural causes so I don’t think its as simple as babies

  • Spanoftheyard

    Historically everyone pretty much worked, Muslim and Islam related to welfare in some areas. Kazakhstan? Still has areas where people with long term disabilities live including autism. There are areas of Muslim culture focused on welfare, health and calm for people with long term disabilities. In 2017 People need to participate in the modern world and be more responsible. Islam need to changed and modernized to except modern economy, working expectations beyond welfare and women’s rights where educated. Areas of welfare need to be more defined with a focus on modern therapies for intellectual disabilities, emotional problems, physical disabilities. Population growth is increasing and people are ignoring this huge problem. Everyone needs to be responsible for them selves away from a game of welfare. Muslims were never paid or rewarded to have an excess of children. They historically always had one or two children. Social programs preaching inequality and unfairness, distributing wealth to people to have an excess of children needs to be examined and even stopped. No one should be paid or rewarded for having an excess of children. Children are an expense no matter what the digital money calculator says. There is too many people between Africa and the middle east please be more responsible.

  • To be a Muslim, one must believe in and pronounce the words (Shahada) that mean, “There is no deity worthy of being worshipped except Allah (s.w.t) and Muhammad (peace be upon him) is His Messenger.” This declaration testifies that Almighty Allah exists
    https://www.dawateislami.net/blog/islam

    • So you’re saying that you’ve proven that Allah exists? This is interesting, but you need to show your work.

    • Greg G.

      To be a Pastafarian, one must believe in and pronounce the words (Semolina) that mean, “There is no deity worthy of being worshipped except The Flying Spaghetti Monster (s.w.t) and Chef Boy-ar-dee (peace be upon him) is His Messenger.” This declaration testifies that Almighty Flying Spaghetti Monster exists