Clues that Religion Is False

Clues that Religion Is False December 23, 2017

Laser cat

Imagine that you see someone wearing a tinfoil hat. What are they concerned about? Perhaps that their thoughts are being read by the NSA or CIA. Perhaps that some mysterious government agency is using radio waves to send commands into their brain. But that wasn’t the original purpose of tinfoil hats. Delusions change with the times, and there was no NSA or radio programming in the 1920s when tinfoil hats became a thing. Back then, the goal was to prevent telepathic intrusion.

Today, someone might fear alien abduction, but it might’ve been demon possession in an earlier time. Today, someone might fear government spying through computer malware, but yesterday it might’ve been fear about someone stealing their soul.

Signs of the times

It’s not just paranoid delusions that adapt to developments in science and technology. Bogus medical treatments also keep up to date. With new scientific interest in magnetism, Franz Mesmer treated patients with magnets in the late 1700s. With the discovery of radioactivity, radioactive products were popular in the early 1900s—radioactive toothpaste to brighten teeth and radium water (advertised as “Perpetual Sunshine”) to improve health.

We’ve seen this innovation in religion as well. The Fox sisters were key players in the growth of Spiritualism in the late 1800s. They were investigated by well-known scientists, and this gave them a respectable luster. During the same period, Christian Science developed as a Christian response to scientific medicine.

More recently, UFO religions grew after UFOs and aliens became part of the culture. The Seekers cult expected to be taken aboard an alien spacecraft in 1954, just before the end of the world. When the appointed hour came and went with neither destruction nor a spacecraft, they reframed reality so that their prayers had saved the world. In 1997, the Heaven’s Gate cult committed suicide together to catch a ride on a UFO flying behind a comet. Raëlians prefer to enjoy life here on earth, with aliens providing technology for eternal life. Scientology’s mythology includes Xenu, the ruler of the Galactic Confederacy. The Nation of Islam also includes UFOs in its teachings.

New religions that would’ve been inconceivable just half a century ago include Kopimism, which views communication as sacred (“kopimi” = “copy me”) and Jediism, inspired by the movie Star Wars. Barely more credible are New Age views like those of Deepak Chopra, despite his frequent use of science-y words like “quantum” and “vibrations.”

What does this tell us?

If “Yahweh is the creator of the universe, and his son died for the salvation of mankind” were an instinctive truth programmed into every human heart, we would expect to see people moving toward Christianity, and there would be only one interpretation of it. However, the hydra of religion that we actually see, with new heads appearing daily, doesn’t look like what we’d expect if there were some universal, accessible religious truth. In fact, it looks like quite the opposite. Religion is a response to vague supernatural desires, and these responses change with time and place. Far from coalescing into a single viewpoint, Christianity continues to mutate, with 45,000 denominations and counting.

Why does religion change and adapt? For the same reason that bogus medicine changes and adapts: hope.

If conventional medicine won’t promise you a cure, quack medicine will. Laetrile will cure your cancer, and stem cell treatments will cure your Parkinson’s. And if your life sucks—whether you’ve just been dealt a bad hand by life or you screwed it up yourself—religion offers hope. If you have guilt from past actions, it shows how to wipe the slate clean. If your present life is painful, it shows how to ensure a great afterlife. Religion is the cereal aisle at the grocery store—there’s something for everyone, with novel new products testing the water all the time.

Delusions, quack cures, and religion adapt to the times. None make convincing claims for truth.

There is a rumour going around that I have found God.
I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys,

and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
— Terry Pratchett

(This is an update of a post that originally appeared 5/19/14.)

Image credit: Matthew Bellemare, flickr, CC


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  • gusbovona

    I was suspicious about the 45,000 figure for the number of Christian denominations when I first heard it, and still am. I initially did some research that I now can’t replicate, but I did stumble upon this: Defining a denomination as an organization, and not defining it by distinct beliefs, reduces the atheist’s point to not much.

    I haven’t been able to find how denomination was defined in the source document for the 2-page summary that was linked to above, but I think my earlier research confirmed that it was a very loose definition of denomination.

    I’d be interested in whatever anyone else can find out about how “denomination” was defined when that 45,000 figure was calculated.

    • Michael Neville

      It took me about ten, maybe twelve seconds to find Why are there 45,000 Denominations? [LINK] :

      According to a report published by the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, in mid-2014 there were over 45,000 Christian denominations worldwide.¹ Furthermore, that number is increasing at the rate of 2.2 new denominations per day.

      Ironically, it is always the leaders in the churches of Christianity who start the new denominations, seeking to make a name for themselves. That is why there are 45,000 denominations today, and 45,002 tomorrow, and 45,004 the next day… Ichabod. It means the glory has departed… long, long ago. [Emphasis in original]

      ¹ [LINK] see line 41

      • gusbovona

        Wow, that was fast! But the question is how denomination is being defined; whether one denomination is distinguished from another on theological grounds, or something else.

        • Greg G.

          Does a denomination become a different denomination every time their set of beliefs change? If a denomination decides it is OK to be gay, is it no longer the denomination it was the day before?

          I don’t think a denomination is defined by what they happen to believe at any point in time. There may be many denominations that happen to have the same set of beliefs on any given day but they do not want to consolidate and then be subject to the changing beliefs decided by others. Some churches are fiercely independent of any other churches. Often a preacher will preach against pride and vanity but it is the preacher’s own pride and vanity that defines the denomination.

          Most of the people in any congregation would be hard pressed to define that beliefs of their denomination. Most Christians haven’t read the Bible for that matter. Many of those who have read it, did not read it for comprehension.

        • Perhaps there are churches with identical beliefs that simply don’t know it. A matchmaking AI could help connect them.

          I imagine it’s not all beliefs but also control. If the First Avenue Bible Church of Mobile, Alabama discovers that the Praise the Lord Bible Church of Owensboro, Kentucky has identical beliefs, why would they link up? The leadership in each one would then have to coordinate the governance thing, and I doubt they’d risk having to yield to the other guys.

        • Lark62

          I don’t think you could get any two churches to agree on everything, or even any two people.

          In fact, individuals don’t have consistent beliefs. Ask a christian do describe god or what it means that god is loving. They can’t put together two consistent sentences.

        • Kodie

          I feel like it might be a different denomination because of how it’s presented to them also. Variations in demographics/social culture, what the cult leader is like (older like a wise father figure, younger like a cool Jesusy dude, etc.), projects they like working on (such as these people volunteer at children’s hospitals and those like to feed homeless veterans). While their beliefs may be identical, they are fracturing themselves on purpose like that, otherwise these people would prefer that church. It becomes something like a brand name, and then it becomes the associations someone has with it, like belonging to a social club, and once you like the people, then you get to refining your beliefs to match whatever the leader says. I mean, there are certain aspects about Christianity that can vary from one denomination to another, interpretations of the bible, and not entirely sure how people become attracted to some kind of church or other. What about grown children who move away from their home church must try to find the nearest kind like it, right? And if they are married to someone from a slightly different denomination, they probably compromise. It is almost just like “church is church”. I’m sensing from others that moving somewhere might mean neighbors try to find out where you go to church (which you don’t already) so they can invite you to theirs, and now that you have a friend there, you’re probably not going to try all of the others, as long as what’s preached aligns with your beliefs, and I think even just being there can influence someone to alter their beliefs or adjust them. It’s all marketing and persuasion, it’s performed to sound pretty sensible to the person wanting to hear what to think.

        • sandy

          Perhaps “follow the money”. In the U.S. churches (denominations) are tax exempt. Just maybe there is a benefit to someone to start up their own church/denomination and this contributes to the large number.

        • Pofarmer

          What typically happens here is that a group within an existing church disagrees with another group inside an existing church on some theological point and one faction breaks away and starts a “new” church. Et Voila. It used to be fairly rare, but there are literally dozens of new churchs that I’ve seen in the last couple weeks.

        • al kimeea

          I bet there are at least 666 theologically distinct xian sects. Nice round number, easy to remember and large enough to reinforce the issue. This, along with the varieties within the many other cults, bodes ill for any deity. However, this has been an issue from day one of xianity for which Nicea was a band-aid that soon(ish) fell off.

        • epicurus

          The Emperor Julian (The Apostate) was just going to leave the Church alone and let it implode from all the vicious infighting. His reign only lasted a couple years so we didn’t get to see how that turned out, then it was back to the state forcing the church to get along with itself.

    • Castilliano

      “Denomination” doesn’t have a standardized, rigorous definition and is, like most religious terms, subjective & nuanced.
      The 45K+ number is a legitimate number for separate Christian church organizations, or denominations in the colloquial sense. (As Michael linked while I was typing this.)
      There are flaws in numbering it this way, such as denominations can be split by geography rather than theology, by financial schisms, by race or culture, or by many other factors that are secondary to them actually being different types of Christianity. But from pro-Christian sources, I’ve still seen the numbers in the 10K+ range. The question is, how many are too many? I’d say it was a much lower number than that if we’re talking about an omni-god bequeathing humanity with insight. While many splits can be attributed to human flaws, the number of earnest seekers being led in such varied directions by the same source material is ridiculous (or the source material itself is).

      Perhaps the main flaw in the denomination question is that most parishioners don’t know what beliefs/creeds/etc. set their version of Christianity apart from others (with exceptions for the major splinter groups like Mormons). Arguably, most mainstream Christians don’t use that criteria to choose a church, as compared to how welcoming or charitable the church is or how well its politics align. And more than a few churches in my area hem & haw about tougher topics, avoiding a formal stance so as to have the broadest appeal. And while one would think this might make for excellent discussion, there’s hardly any. It’s music and safe topics like love & self-improvement. And among those Christians who have explored deeper topics, I have found a surprising number who disagree with their church, but remain for social reasons or because that’s the closest theological fit they could find…meaning they’d need to add another denomination to have a church best suited to them!

      While this is a direct knock against Christianity being god-led, it also hits on how flawed the methods of theology are.
      If theology worked, its progress wouldn’t be measured by how well the rhetoric has developed or how the insights have gravitated toward cultural norms. It would move toward reconciling at least some issues, but theology only accumulates more issues while continuing to split on the basic ones. Like say…which god(s)?

      BTW: I’d appreciate a website which laid out which churches believed what and with what degree of fervor/importance.

      • gusbovona

        The relevance of the definition of denomination is that it seems that atheists are making a point about belief and theology when they bring up the 45,000 figure. So it would seem prudent to use a number that one could actually support as being based on different beliefs.

        I also saw something that said that the 45,000 figure was not only distinguished by different organizations, but also by country: so two churches in different countries with the same beliefs would be counted as 2 denominations.

        • Greg G.

          If a belief remains popular in one country but becomes very unpopular in the other country, do you think the denomination will determine the status of the belief or the individual denominations in the country? I recall some Methodist churches within a denomination disagreeing with the parent denomination on things.

        • MNb

          “making a point about belief and theology”
          See above – for that point the number and hence the definition is hardly relevant. If you want to reduce it to 2 000 it still stands.

        • al kimeea

          In late 1517 the number was 3 for xianity alone, never mind the others. The point stands.

        • Kodie

          Believers attend this church instead of that church because they believe their church is the best church and the other one is not a good fit for them. I mean, the number comes from believers’ behavior, in addition to you often hear believers who maybe don’t go to a church at all or very often, forming their beliefs more socially. Some believe Jesus to be a hippie who preaches kindness and accepts homosexuality, and another believes Jesus to be a hippie who preaches kindness, but believes it is kindness to preach homosexuals out of their “sin”. Another believes Jesus to be a hippie who preaches kindness, and while believing homosexuality to be a sin, does not feel their place to interfere or judge (like, to their face). They don’t get reinforced on these close but different ideas from attending any church, but from filtering what they know, what they already believed, and what is going on around them through the idea that they have to have not just an opinion, but that their opinions are god’s opinions and have consequences beyond life on earth.

          Many many many people have similar beliefs that don’t know it, but they believe their sports team, I mean church, is the true path to salvation. That’s why they go there instead of a different one nearby. They like the sound of the preacher’s voice, or his attitude, his salesmanship, the bible passages he chooses to emphasize, maybe the architecture, maybe they have kids and it’s lively and kid-friendly instead of dry and old-sounding, or maybe they are old-fashioned and prefer a serious old man who must surely be wiser than that young punk who has no experience. There are enough differences in churches to say someone from one church carries so many dangerous and ignorant ideas, while another one seems pretty secular except for their willful belief there’s a god and a heaven and a hell if asked, but to me they’re pretty much the same. Why are there so many? Because they all sincerely believe slight alterations give them not only a better shot at salvation, but of feeling comfortable in a place with people who believe the things they already believed.

        • Greg G.

          If people went to church for the religion, it wouldn’t matter which church they went to if it was a wide-spread denomination. But people will drive to a more distant church to see their friends and family and to hear that preacher who knows their names.

        • Pofarmer

          Even if it wasn’t a wide spread denomination. Denomination shouldn’t matter. It’s all Christians. It’s all Church, right? ;Yeah, not so much.

      • Len

        BTW: I’d appreciate a website which laid out which churches believed what and with what degree of fervor/importance.

        That world require a level of honesty and openness not seen in churches. They like to keep it cloudy – that allows them to adjust things when necessary.

      • Giauz Ragnarock

        “or the source material itself is”

        They don’t have the source material (supposedly a still living omnipresent person), so they all cherry-pick a book of varied contents and translations from their own pens and printing presses as if that makes sense given the claimed source.

    • MNb

      That number of 45 000 doesn’t really matter. Divide it by 10 or 20 and the point still stands: religion is not capable of separating correct claims from incorrect ones.

      • gusbovona

        Agreed, but tactically, we should be using a number that is truly a best estimate, just to forestall the rejoinder that our number is incorrect.

        • Greg G.

          45,000 is from 2014. We should be using 47,000 or so now. Any church that refuses to be a part of any other denomination is a denomination itself. The Springfield Bible Church in Massachusetts is not the same as the Springfield Bible Church in Missouri which is not the same as the Springfield Bible Church in Illinois. (I chose those at random but two of them actually exist.)

          The names and beliefs are irrelevant.

        • Pofarmer

          Been driving quite a bit the past couple of weeks, and it’s truly amazing the number of non-denominational church’s popping up. The way I look at it, folks are leaving traditional denominations for “something else”. I’m hoping when the “something else” fizzles, we’re left with a whole lot fewer fundamentalists. Key word “hoping”

        • I’m happy to change, but the stats you point to aren’t much of a change. If you’re saying that this is an rhetorical Achilles heel, I’m missing it.

        • gusbovona

          Perhaps, practically, no Christian is complaining about the 45,000 number, so it doesn’t matter tactically. However, it is not good practice to present numbers or stats that are not well founded as if they are, even if they have been cited in authoritative publications.

        • I do my best to use the most reliable data, and I drop an argument if I find irredemable flaws with it (even if my opponent wouldn’t know). A Christian source (the International Bulletin of Missionary Research), particularly one that has similar data to other sources, sounds like a reliable source in this context.

        • gusbovona

          It’s a question of validity, not reliability. It’s a question of not using a number to be a measurement of something that it isn’t really measuring. The 45,000 figure is apparently measuring denominations on things other than just viewpoint (theology or doctrine), so we shouldn’t use that figure to imply that there are that many distinct viewpoints among Christians, even if the number is in the thousands anyway.

        • Greg G.

          Denomination is not based on viewpoints, theology, and doctrine. A denomination might have a specific viewpoint, theology, and/or doctrine but those can change and often do while remaining the same denomination. Saying there are 45K denominations is not saying there are 45K viewpoints. There are probably way more than 45K viewpoints. Same for theology. There may be fewer doctrines. Denomination is about affiliations.

        • gusbovona

          So we shouldn’t use the 45.000 figure to say something about viewpoints then. That’s my point.

        • Greg G.

          But there are 2.1 billion Christians viewpoints, one per Christian.

        • gusbovona

          That’s fine, let’s use the 2.1 billion number, and say that it represents every single Christian. It might be incorrect that every single Christian holds a different viewpoint, but at least the number would be honest in what it represents. But 45,000 does not, apparently, represent denominations with 45,000 different viewpoints (if only because some denominations are distinguished merely because they are in different countries).

        • Pofarmer

          There’s something like 30 Churches in my little town of 10,000. Something like half of them are non-denominational. How do you propose to count that? I know one has preachers that are affiliated with the Southern Baptist conference, but the Church itself is independent. How is that not a separate denomination? If anything, I’d wager the 45,000 number worldwide is low.

        • gusbovona

          How you define denomination is not my issue. My only issue is that there was a discrepancy between how a denomination was defined as the basis for the 45,000 figure (which distinguished between denominations on more criteria than just viewpoint or doctrine), and how Bob used it in the OP, that it indicated different viewpoints.

        • Greg G.

          There is the viewpoint of who should be affiliated with whom to consider. That viewpoint works out to denominations.

        • Pofarmer


        • MNb

          Those christians wouldn’t be complaining even if there were actually a few million of denominations, so tactically and strategically that’s a totally irrelevant argument.

        • Greg G.

          The 45,000 figure represents Christians’ refusal to agree even if they agree.

          That makes Jesus the biggest prayer failure of all time because his prayer was that believers would agree so completely that it would impress everybody else so much that they would also believe.

          John 17:20-23 (NRSV)20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

        • epicurus

          This and Jesus’ belief that the end would come within a generation should be enough to shutdown the whole show.

        • Pofarmer

          Cognitive dissonance is obviously not that hard to handle.

        • Kodie

          Megachurches should be a lot more popular.

        • Kodie

          Tactically, they all believe theirs is the one true one, and acknowledge there are many other believers and hand-wave about why. We have one around sometimes who does dispute the number, mainly saying they are mostly the same and whatever makes them different isn’t really critical enough to count as a new denomination. Of course, when it’s convenient to count how many people call themselves Christian, even the not-true-Christians count then.

        • Pofarmer

          There probably isn’t a “Best estimate”. All over the place right now there are non denominational “Genesis Church’s”, and “Renew Chruch’s” and the like popping up. It’s really almost exponential around here (Missouri) as congregations divide and set up new digs. Yes, a lot of these are probably loosely part of the Southern Baptist group. But all of them are different in some significant way.

        • epicurus

          As they continue to grow, or if they do, won’t they become their own denominations, in practice if not in name?

        • Pofarmer

          I’d say that practically they are, yes.

        • Greg G.

          Often the “significant way” is the preacher’s ego.

        • Pofarmer

          I’ve seen that, as well. I’ve seen a congregation get sideways with a preacher and he just goes and starts another church.

        • carbonUnit

          Often the “significant way” is the preacher’s ego.
          Or ignorance of the true meaning of what he’s split off from.

        • MNb

          Tactically I just point out what I did in my previous comment: OK, let’s accept 2 000 then. Religion still is not capable of separating correct claims from incorrect ones. Works tactically fine for me.

        • gusbovona

          That’s fine by me.

      • Pofarmer

        Well, they think they are. “Them other religions are WRONG!”

        • Kevin K

          Their kilts are the wrong plaid…

    • reduces the atheist’s point to not much.

      My point is the amazing statistic of thousands of denominations (45,000 in the Christian source that I noted, which is the same magnitude as the 21K, 33K, and 34K at your source) makes clear the remarkable fact that Christians can’t even agree among themselves on the single correct interpretation of the Bible that they all share.

      I imagine that any independent church that doesn’t join a national organization is a “denomination.”

      • Lerk!

        From personal experience I would tend to lump some together even though they are, strictly speaking, independent. The original “non-denominational” denomination, the “churches of Christ” (little-c donchaknow) have 4 distinct branches that I’m certain of (although there may be 5 now). There’s the “mainline” branch, which constitutes the majority of the churches with “Church of Christ Meets Here” on the sign out front, then the “non-inistitutional” group (who refer to the mainline group as “liberal” and who are referred to by the mainline group as “anti”), and a couple of smaller groups, one which is usually referred to as “no Bible class” and the other as “one cup” (which means everybody drinks from the same big cup of grape juice every Sunday so be sure you sit on the front row!). The mainline group may be splitting into instrumental and non-instrumental music.

        I’m most familiar with the non-institutional group. While their beliefs on some subjects vary in different parts of the US (for example, on marriage-divorce-and-remarriage), they are consistent enough to be lumped into these 4 or 5 denominations and counting each congregation as a separate denomination gives too much credence to their claims of independence. Though there’s no official organization and no hierarchy, the informal relationships are so close that they form de-facto denominations.

        And I would think that most of the more modern “community church” non-denominational churches have doctrines that closely tie them with particular denominations of Christianity, whether they’re Baptist or Pentecostal or whatever. Might be better to simply refer to them as “independent Baptist” and call that a denomination.

        I have no idea how much that would reduce the number.

    • So which numbers do you come out with?

      • gusbovona

        I haven’t seen any numbers on Christian denominations defined by differences in beliefs or theology without reference to organizational structure or affiliation. Presumably it’s in the thousands,

        • Greg G.

          I just posted another reply about affiliations before I saw this. Beliefs and theologies can change but the affiliations remain so it is the same denomination. If the changes happened to coincide between Methodists and Baptists for a Sunday, they wouldn’t automatically be MBeatphtoidists. They would still be two different denominations.

          There are many Bob Jones University preachers out there in independent churches with basically the same theology but they are fiercely independent.

        • Kevin K

          All “Baptist” churches are independently owned-and-operated. My local “mega-Baptist” church has very, very little in common with the nearby “KJV-believing” Baptist church.

        • Greg G.

          That’s what I thought. There is the United Methodist Church but no United Baptist Church.

        • Pofarmer

          If you go to someplace like Arkansas, you’ll see 3 different “Baptist” church’s on 3 corners of the same intersection. The 4th is probably a generic “Church of Christ” or “Bible Church” of some sort.

        • Greg G.

          Every one of them thinks the church across the street is going to hell.

        • TheNuszAbides

          They answer to a thousand higher authorities.

        • Not 45,000?

        • gusbovona

          The 45,000 figure apparently includes denominations distinguished by mere organizational affiliation and even country and not necessarily theology/doctrine, which is the distinction of use to atheists making the point about how religions aren’t consistent with their beliefs.

        • eric

          I think you’re downplaying the sectarianism and insularity of a lot of congregations. Personally, I’d say a good rule of thumb is that if you are ‘qualified’ to take communion in your home church, and you go to a new one and tell the priest what you are, and he refuses you communion, then you and they are a different sect – even if you have the same denomination title and organizational affiliation. And I think that sort of refusal is very common, even between churches that call themselves the same denomination. In fact using this rule of thumb, there’s probably a lot of single-congregation Christian sects out there. That may seem extreme, but really think about what refusing communion means, theologically. That’s a big deal; refusing the sacrament, refusing to let the person participate in the single most defining and keystone religious observance of Christianity. Refusing to let that person participate in sharing in Christ. So I think that even if it leads to an absurdly large number of counted sects, that rule of thumb is a pretty good one.

        • gusbovona

          Is there some research or poll or statistic that would indicate how much that happens?

        • So any idea how many are different in beliefs rather than just having separate organizations?

        • Without Malice

          Does it really matter? Just about every Christian has his own version of god regardless of what denomination he/she belongs to. Some southern Baptist think god is fine with gays, others think god hates gays. Some Mormons think leadership of the church passed to Joseph Smiths sons, while others think it passed to Brigham Young. Religion is a pie that can be cut an infinite number of ways.

        • I was just curious.

    • eric

      Here is a start. Certainly not 45,000, but enough to make the point, I think. One prophet and even a couple hundred sects is a problem.

      IMO the ‘adaptation’ that Bob talks about is especially obvious in some of the more extreme American protestant denominations. Most everyone with at least a high school education knows Protestantism arose in the 16th century. But this presents a problem for protestants with very strict heavenly entry requirements; while a liberal protestant sect may be happy to think of early Catholics getting in, a fundie baptist who doesn’t has to deal with the issue of God sending every Christian from 300-1515 going to hell because Christianity hadn’t discovered what they believe to be the right interpretation yet. So in some cases they’ve adopted a sort of historical revisionism adaptation, where they claim all those centuries the real and regular church folk had protestants similar to their flavor of protestantism today, and it was only the church hierarchy that was different.

      • gusbovona

        Yes, that list is sufficient to make the point. So I recommend that we use that list (someone count ’em?).

    • I suspect these factors could lead to both underestimates and overestimates.
      For example, my former denomination, the Christadelphians, probably counts as one denomination (or maybe even zero, if they are considered sufficiently heretical).

      Most were in the “Central” fellowship, but we knew of at least half a dozen other fringe fellowships, most of which wouldn’t fellowship with us or with each other.
      In some cases they were using exactly the same doctrinal statement, but placing different meanings on some of it.
      Even in Central certain churches wouldn’t interact with certain other churches, though officially they were still in fellowship.

      And I’m sure we weren’t the only place where groups wouldn’t interact with each other, but officially still keep the same name and are treated as the same denomination. What does that show? That there are a near infinite number of points of “True Religion” (oh, and culture) available to divide over?

    • Kevin K

      Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, “Don’t do it!” He said, “Nobody loves me.” I said, “God loves you. Do you believe in God?”

      He said, “Yes.” I said, “Are you a Christian or a Jew?” He said, “A Christian.” I said, “Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me, too! What franchise?” He said, “Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?” He said, “Northern Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?”

      He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist.” I said, “Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region.” I said, “Me, too!”

      Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?” He said, “Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912.” I said, “Die, heretic!” And I pushed him over.

      — Emo Philips.

    • Chuck Johnson

      The various organizations have distinct beliefs because even individuals within the same church have different beliefs from each other.
      The heart of Christian beliefs is the existence of a miraculous God, a miraculous Jesus, and a Bible which is true in miraculous ways.
      These three things are actually false.
      God and miraculous Jesus don’t exist and never existed except as ideas, as stories.

      Scientific beliefs and investigations are very different from this.
      Scientific beliefs and investigations revolve around things which exist in the physical world. Empiricism involves the proof (or disproof) of things in the real, physical world. The more scientific work is done, the greater the confidence in the findings.
      In religions, the more work is done, the greater the diversity of the findings, thus the growing diversity of specific beliefs.
      This diversity varies over geography and it varies over the time that the Christian churches have been in existence.

      It’s like the story of the blind men and the elephant, but in Christianity, the elephant does not really exist.
      In Christianity, there is just a diversity of stories about a nonexistent elephant.

      • Greg G.

        They are certain that the elephant lives in their hearts.

        • TheNuszAbides

          and does cave paintings and inscriptions with its trunk.

    • E.A. Blair

      The correct word is “cults”, not “denominations”.

  • They just claim it’s sinful desires that keep us in denial, though presumable hell is part of what we instinctively know? How can people be held responsible if we’re so deluded that we’d deny that with the cost of eternal suffering?

    • epicurus

      It’s a double whammy of unfairness – our minds are clouded by the effects of an inherited sinful nature so we can’t chose God’s grace without His help. At the same time, there is a super smart, super tricky, super powerful, super deceitful divine being running around constantly trying to trick and deceive us, using all his powers that we can’t even begin to compete with, trying to keep us apart from God so we can be sent to hell forever, we we are going to anyway if we are not chosen by God to be saved.

      • The deck is stacked, as God allows Satan free reign apparently.

        • Pofarmer

          Yeah, you’d think that God would just beat Satan and be done with it. But then, there wouldn’t be much story, would there?

        • There is a theory Satan vs. God comes from Zoroastrianism, in which the good Ahura Mazda and the evil Ahriman battled each other. They are both equally powerful, however, which explains why the good god can’t just destroy the evil one. So it made sense originally (at least, more sense).

        • Pofarmer

          That actually does make sense. But it doesn’t work when one party is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.

        • Yep, if you have non-omnipotent gods it works. It’s nonsense otherwise.

        • Kodie

          It’s just like in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, where it turns out Slugworth is an employee of Wonka’s. Willy Wonka is a weird guy with a temper, and the evil Slugworth is just to see if you use your free will to pass or fail the test. If Willy Wonka doesn’t have Slugworth, all the children would obviously choose to be brats, because there were no …. other consequences. Well I see now, the other kids who won the golden ticket factory tour were assholes and never got a chance to sell the everlasting gobstopper to Slugworth anyway. And there were no Oompa-Loompas when Charlie stole the Fizzy Lifting Drink, and nobody watched them, but Wonka still knew about it because he’s omniscient and just ordered Charlie and Grandpa Joe to get the fuck out at the end. It’s really the only time the tempting offer by Slugworth even comes into play or gives any of the kids a chance to redeem themselves by giving back the candy.

          It makes sense for an omnipotent creator to use evil as a tool and hire an agent to help him sort people. If what religious people think is close, humans are susceptible to the lure of behaving badly, but try to explain the use of catastrophic events and diseases nobody asked for, because they are always saying god sprinkles misfortune on people to get them to come to Jesus, while dealing them circumstances that they could succumb to hatred of god, despair, and choose to lash out violently or take up an addiction or whatever. I mean it is totally bullshit excuses, but that’s what they would come up with.

        • Originally in the Hebrew belief Satan was apparently a servant of God, perhaps his tempter. That seems to be what the Book of Job depicts, which shows them talking like they aren’t enemies at all. Only later with their rescue by the Persians did the Jews adopt some of their beliefs apparently, and Satan became the anti-God.

        • Kodie

          In WW, they think Slugworth works for the other guy too. If you’re writing from your perspective, you hate that guy. If you’re god, you might find him useful to hang around. At least in the movie, he didn’t really come up again until the end. Those kids all looked like they would take the offer but they never had a chance to. There’s apparently a thing going around some internet nerds that Grandpa Joe is actually the villain. The factory tour was a bonus in Charlie’s life, but it was all pretty tidy – they did sign the contract with the very fine print, and it was Grandpa Joe’s idea to stay behind and try that Fizzy Lifting Drink and almost got himself and Charlie killed. Why is Charlie entitled to another fucking thing? Out of spite and utter defensiveness, Grandpa Joe calls Wonka a crook and suggests they really ought to sell the secret candy to Slugworth if they’re not going to get the lifetime supply of chocolate, so Charlie gave it back and Wonka changed his tune, because that was the “test”. For reasons I don’t understand, this means Wonka gives Charlie the factory, which I would believe makes a person utterly mad, or you have to be kind of insane and eccentric, which Charlie is not. Wonka is a judgmental god who immediately deals with bad children and sends them to I guess learn their lesson? Nobody could learn a lesson from the first kid, and what the fuck is wrong with chewing gum anyway? Seems pretty harsh to me, and, for that matter, I don’t know what one expects to happen when you present children first off with a room of plants made out of candy that they can eat directly from, but stay away from the chocolate river. Makes no sense to punish Augustus Gloop but not Charlie. Veruca Salt was really the only kid totally out of line, since her father had his workers unwrapping chocolate to find a golden ticket at his own factory to serve her demands.

        • I don’t know the story, so I’m not really able to comment.

        • Freethinker

          Given his eternal powerlessness to stop him it’s evident that God is, always has been, and always will be Satan’s bitch.

        • carbonUnit

          It is as if the teacher assigned to the playground is more concerned about the bully’s free will than the well being of the others who are following the rules, but getting the carp beat out of them.

        • Yes, it is odd. The free will defense explains evil this way for us (not that this explains natural evil, but never mind). Yet what free will do people have when they are being murdered, raped, robbed etc., let along being preyed on by demons?

        • carbonUnit

          And how are we to find The Truth upon which our eternal fate depends if said demons are free to manipulate the world to create confounding evidence?

        • Quite so. According to many Christians, all other religions and even rival sects were created by them for that very purpose. How do they know Christianity is not their creation? Some forms at least do seem like they were made by evil creatures.

  • Len

    Just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is religion in the mind of the believer.

    • carbonUnit

      I will see that pink elephant on my front lawn if I just believe.

    • Freethinker

      Both beauty and religion look better in the eye of a beerholder.

  • ThaneOfDrones

    Tinfoil (and aluminium foil) is out, velo-stat is in.


  • Tommy

    It seems like a user has derailed the topic by hairsplitting.

    • Michael Neville

      That became obvious a day or two ago. That’s why I quit commenting on this thread.

  • Kevin K

    Happy Monday, all you godless heathens (me included). I’ve got a contract to finish, so I see no reason to spend the day lolling around doing nothing. Afternoon with the family — Exploding Kittens is probably going to happen tonight.

  • dluch

    “But if oxen (and horses) and lions had hands or could draw with hands and create works or art like those made by men, horses would draw pictures of gods like horses, and oxen of gods like oxen, and they would make the bodies of their gods in accordance with the form that each species itself possesses” – Xenophanes

    • Kevin K

      Reasonable assumption; but I think that doesn’t account for the half-human gods of the Babylonians, Egyptians, and Indians, as well as the fantastic gods of the Americas (and elsewhere). Humans seem to have created gods with human form (Hercules, Mercury, Jesus, et al), half-human form (Osiris, Ganesh, and such), and non-human form (Quetzalcoatl). And, of course, the Greeks had non-god chimera like the Minotaur.

      Xenophanes doesn’t give humans nearly enough credit for our imagination. Horses — probably less so though — their gods likely are all-horse (and riderless).

      • JustAnotherAtheist2

        Either way, they would certainly talk about how “perfect” their bodies were and how clearly they indicate design.

  • RichardSRussell

    Objectivity and religion are like oil and water.

  • Bob Jase

    if god isn’t real why did I find a parking place this morning?

  • Max Doubt

    “Clues that Religion Is False”

    Religion exists. That is objectively demonstrably true. Religion is no more true or false than an apple is true or false. Suggesting either is a silly proposition.

    • Kevin K

      Thank you, Mr. Pedant.

      Without you, none of us would ever have understood that the word “religion” was being used as a shorthand for the phrase “the truth claims made by theists about the existence of gods and their impact on the operation of the world and its humans”.

      • Max Doubt

        “Without you, none of us would ever have understood that the word “religion” was being used as a shorthand for the phrase “the truth claims made by theists about the existence of gods and their impact on the operation of the world and its humans”.”

        Is/are “the truth claims made by theists about the existence of gods and their impact on the operation of the world and its humans” true or false?

        • Kevin K

          Take a guess at my answer.

        • Max Doubt

          “Take a guess at my answer.”

          Since it is demonstrably true that truth claims made by theists about the existence of gods have a great deal of impact on the operation of the world and its humans, and since you tend toward thinking reasonably about such matters, your answer would be “true”. Those claims certainly have impact.

        • eric

          The post isn’t talking about their impact. Kevin isn’t talking about their impact.

          So, are you just being obtuse or do you truly not understand the point?

        • Max Doubt

          “The post isn’t talking about their impact. Kevin isn’t talking about their impact.

          So, are you just being obtuse or do you truly not understand the point?”

          I understand the point. In this instance Kevin doesn’t seem especially concerned with clear communication outside the echo chamber. I was dabbling in the same kind of ambiguity as those who would ask, “Is atheism/religion true?” I accept that colloquialisms and sloppy communication can get the job done when everyone in the conversation already knows what everyone else means, but…

          I may be wrong, but it seems part of the intent of these blogs is to move the conversation outward. If it’s only about atheists agreeing with each other, we could stand in a circle with each person patting the next guy on the back and saying, “Good job, dude.” If that’s not the point, maybe we would do better to use a term like “religious claims” when that’s what we mean.

        • eric

          In this instance Kevin doesn’t seem especially concerned with clear communication outside the echo chamber.

          Ah I see. You were clarifying the post in case a non-atheist reader mistakenly thinks Bob is arguing religious belief doesn’t exist. Because you’re worried that might happen. Is that correct?

        • Max Doubt

          “Ah I see. You were clarifying the post in case a non-atheist reader mistakenly thinks Bob is arguing religious belief doesn’t exist. Because you’re worried that might happen. Is that correct?”

          Well, not quite. I started by pointing out that religion isn’t true or false any more than an apple is true or false. If someone means “religious claims” they should use words that mean “religious claims”. I followed by pointing out that clear communication is important if we want to be understood, and I was having some fun with Kevin’s rather unclear comment as a sort of example.

          My immediately previous comment offered what I think is a pretty sound reason for avoiding sloppy communication in these forums. It’s not that I’m not worried about it, but most regular participants here have encountered god believers who want to attribute us with positions we don’t hold. It seems we’d spend much less time and effort re-explaining or correcting incorrect impressions if we try to avoid ambiguity from the git-go.

  • Sawyer Heavensgate

    I also am non-religious and non-spiritual, though also non-atheistic and pro everything Jesus taught. Jesus was actually an extraterrestrial but there are charlatans galore, who are the space alien fallen angel souls who were imprisoned under the earth from their fall during that last civilization on earth, allowed to surface in the 1940’s and 1950’s primarily and who run the human world. So if religions are diminishing that’s great because they were built by man, led by the Luciferian space alien fallen angels to a distorted condition that are actually now “killers of souls” when clung to. What was called the Kingdom of God in Heaven is really The Many Member-ed Physical Evolutionary Kingdom Level Above Human and is as much above human as a human is to a dog or horse (for instance). Lot’s to say about this. I’d be glad to debate it. The raelians think heaven can be found on earth though technology but they will all still die, even if they manufacture new physical bodies their Spirit or Soul can move into for a little while longer. They proved to me they were charlatans when Rael wrote about his alien experience as their saying they outlived planets but didn’t make the planets when the true creators made all the planets and all the life forms and designed the human kingdom to be a stepping stone into membership in the Level Above Human.These are the teachings of TI and Do, the Heaven’s Gate Cult of truth I was with for 19 years and continue to serve. My book is at:

    • Greg G.

      What’s your evidence?

      • Sawyer Heavensgate

        My book is filled with the most compelling evidence that these Two were the so called Second Coming of the Kingdom of God in the literal heavens. I’ve posted on my blog the entire book (and it’s for sale in ebook and as a softcover) that is over 400,000 words of research into the hebrew and greek word origins together with global events, primarily since the early 1800’s with a focus on the United States as the geography for the return (as Jesus said he wouldn’t be returning to Jerusalem area). The book is in seven sections of blog posts to fit it all. The first post is at:

        • adam
        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          how about proof that nothing exists?

        • Susan

          how about proof that nothing exists?

          No one here made that claim.

          Greg G. simply asked you to distinguish your claims from imaginary claims.

          And you instantly erected a strawman instead of answering an honest question.

          What are you claiming and how do you support it?

        • MNb

          I’m not sure if he understands that himself.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          I wrote a whole bunch of stuff to support some of my claims and part of it was….

          “-Do Comes Public as the return of “Jesus” in 1993, shown as sitting on a “white horse,””

          So Greg then says…
          “I have sat on a white horse, was I the return of “Jesus”? So you’ve got NOTHING”

          and you say my response was the strawman… okay then, fair enough it was…

          So what was his honest question. Asking for evidence but in this talk isn’t evidence subjective?

          I’m talking to someone who uses the bible to show what to us would be considered bad behavior – striking and/or owning a slave, as if that by itself is evidence that the entire body of information is …. what… something he doesn’t believe in at all or that he believes in those verses enough to use them as examples but then, when I talk about how that was a “toddler” level classroom and talk about Jesus not promoting that behavior he then says the Jesus record entirely is imaginary, didn’t happen.

          That’s quite the strawman argument is it not?

          Even so, you ask what I am claiming and how I support it.

          I claim that the earth and all the planets and all the life forms are the scientific design of a Kingdom of Highly advanced living physical Beings who don’t die or have disease and travel in very sophisticated spacecrafts, who set up the earth as a type of hothouse and that the product they are looking for are what the religious literature talks about as Souls but are actually subtle physical (like the wind/breath) computer chip like containers that function like “seeds”. When they are planted in particular human vehicles (bodies) they can be activated when they are exposed to the information they were designed to recognize and that information is provided by word of mouth from Older Members in that Kingdom periodically to selected groups of humans. These individuals are so advanced that their Minds have grown so much that they can literally manipulate matter by thoughts. But they are not only advanced in that way. They are completely compassionate and gentle and loving and kind and thrive on serving the ones that ushered them into membership in their Kingdom Level Above Human. However the containers many of us see as who we are, are not all we can be as they designed the human body genetically to generate a mind of it’s own and that mind doesn’t die when the flesh body dies. The mind is that sublle wind like physical stuff spoken of in the religious literature as “spirit” or as a discarnate or ghost. It’s discarnate when it is not attached to flesh any longer. Latin “carne” means flesh. That spirit then tries to continue to influence living humans to do the things it did when it had a dense physical body. Thus humans are actually time shared computer systems, shared by any number of discarnate. All we are then is the chooser. We choose what to think and do so that determines what we become and believe.

          Now the object of the Next Level Above Human has is to help humans come to recognize their Mind as different from their normal human mind. They don’t just come down with their spacecrafts and step out with their ominous Minds and say, “we are your potential future if you seek to become like us” because that would not be giving humans the choice really. They would either die from freight or have their minds blown and be in the mental ward or they could become instant slaves or they would try to kill them. These Above Human Beings don’t need new members so they don’t mince words more than necessary to have a degree of communication. they want humans to be able to make choices continuously as they don’t need robots. They can grow or construct robots to do most anything. And they don’t need slaves either as they don’t need anything humans have. They are at least as evolutionary developed above human as humans are above the animal kingdom and as animals are above the plant kingdom and as plants are above the mineral kingdom.

          When they are done with a “garden” like experiment, they start over by bringing about a planetary recycling so that the previous civilization is all but vanished, that is until the humans develop the technologies to dig deep enough to find evidence of the previous civilization but not so much evidence that they can arrive at certain conclusions.

          These individuals use dense matter physical bodies the way a human would put on a spacesuit to travel in space or a diving suit to dive into the ocean. These bodies are not who they really are just like a human who was designed to look like them – humanoid isn’t dead when it’s physical body is dead. Their soul body is who they have become and that seed that starts off as, has the capacity to go through a metamorphosis just like the caterpillar to a butterfly does. The caterpillar body actually dies completely inside the cocoon. That body turns into goo that shows no signs of caterpillar body parts, yet from that goo a new body is built and that body can then be a totally new creature with new characteristics it didn’t have before, like wings so it was no longer limited to crawling around on branches to survive. The new body that can develop in the human “cocoon” also changes into a new body and that new body has some new characteristics like defying gravity, turning invisible at will yet still being able to eat and is still very much physical. That’s what happened to Jesus when his human body died. After 3 1/2 days he by his will healed it from it’s wounds enough and then he stayed around for about 40 days to prove to his students that he was still physical and told them they must perform the same kind of task as he did by self sacrificing his body to those who were the religious and govt vehicles of the lower forces on the planet. He committed suicide and told his disciples to do the same thing which some of them did.

          So I’m claiming now that the Above Human Older Member who was in the body named Jesus did come back as he said he would and as others said he would, (Daniel, Zechariah, etc.) and did so by intentionally sacrificing their existing Next Level bodies that they grow on a vine, the reason they have no need for reproductive organs and sexuality, because they are not mammals any longer, in what was seen by much of the world, understood to date as UFO crashes, mostly in the US southwest in the 1940’s and 1950’s. This gave humans who became aware of those events the proof that there were beings from other planets because the bodies they had were not human or showed to be human bodies with certain appendages atrophied – like reproductive organs. At that point it was no longer theoretical and a great deal of spirituality and religious thinking fell by the wayside though was covered up as the Next Level anticipated so that it could be gradually introduced to the humans of their world. When their bodies died, they, the Souls stepped away from them and started preparing to enter – take over human bodies to perform the next stage of their “gardening of souls” task.

          When the time was right, after they had spent thousands of years preparing the human strains for the updates to include the development of technologies of flight and rocketry and everything to include preparing people for the reality of beings from outer space and space travel, through science fiction writing and movies starting mostly in the 1800’s, they took over two human vehicles from Texas who gradually in stages woke up to being from Outer space and knew they were sent to bring updates to the bible and to fulfill prophecy. That was by 1973 and they soon discovered they must be the Two Witnesses in the bible, which they didn’t feel fond of having to tell people, and they really hardly did. So they started to hold public meetings and they were flooded with information and at the first meeting in Hollywood several dozen chose to leave all behind to follow them. So they continued meetings and when they came to Oregon where I was living on the west coast I also left all behind to join them. They were called the UFO Two by the media, a huge story at the time because myself and 33 others left all behind to follow them and the idea was that we would be picked up by a “cloud of light” Ufo and taken to this next evolutionary kingdom, though I could care less about UFO’s at the time and wasn’t religious either.

          The story is very involved and you might want to go to itunes and type in heavens gate and listen to those 10 podcasts. They are not pro cult podcasts but they do a decent job in some respects that I also wrote extensive commentary on. they became the group who committed suicide in 1997 of course after I left them in 1994.

          So evidence of all this is going to be in the eye of the beholder to decipher but it exists but certainly not find-able in a run of the mill way. I don’t know what could be evidence really, which is why I used that strawman response.

        • Greg G.

          Doesn’t the Level Above Humans understand that the Level Below the Level Above Human needs unambiguous evidence because believing wild claims without sufficient evidence has never gone well for anybody? Without that, they will only get gullible people interested and only the subset who don’t have a good sex life anyway will stay engaged. Christian heaven is said to be praising God forever. I don’t think I want to massage God’s ego forever. It would be more appealing if it was an eternal orgasm. Your cult forbids the making of the beast with two backs even occasionally.

        • Kodie

          We’re still working on your ridiculous claims. Atheism simply means “I don’t believe you”. You make the claim, you support it, that’s how it works. When one of you loonies ever has any evidence that you’re more than a gullible moron, you get the validation from atheists that you desperately wish for. It’s strange how people who are so secure in what they believe want the external validation so much from atheists than even their own cult leaders or god or whatever matters to any individual theist. You have the superstition that you are embedded in a science-fiction epic, along with the promises that Christianity offers, with that pseudo-scientific twist that appeals to you, or likely appealed to you in your teens, and you got sucked in deep. I am going to be so bold as to proclaim that there’s nothing you can say that would convince me – it is already bizarre, with absolutely no pertinence to reality. I feel so sorry for you to think you hold these ideas to be truth and are so out of touch with reality. I have accused creationists blblical literalists or whatever of coming from another planet, but you have been sucked into a cult that struck on the concept that the whole rest of the story takes place in outer space where no one can check. You’re not careful, you are gullible.

        • MR

          When one of you loonies ever has any evidence that you’re more than a gullible moron

          No doubt some of our Christian friends are sniggering up their sleeves at this “loon.” If they would only consider that their claims hold no more water than his.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          And all you offer is insults and claiming to know my motivation. I have no need for atheist validation. Maybe you are projecting your need to me and I said maybe because I don’t claim to know you by a few words as you claim to know about me. What have I said that can’t be scientific. I know from many talks with physicists that any talk of Spirits is for some quackery as with UFO space aliens, yet I have personal experiences with both in a number of circumstances without any substances after I already believed it possible. It’s like the Reticula Activating system of the brain that one can’t see what they believe doesn’t exist, the same limiting mindset that would string up people for claliming the earth wasn’t the center of the solar system which may be mostly driven by fear of not knowing and feeling unintelligent.

          By the way my cult doesn’t exist on earth anymore. I answer to no one on earth with my beliefs, for whatever that might be worth. I have as much problem with christians talking about what I talk about as I do with staunch atheists, yet I understand both mindsets and both have their validity in my opinion in degrees. Generalizations never really work in these regards. There are christains who know there is evidence in the bible of a civilization before adam and eve story. there are some who know there have been distortions and dilutions and misinformation in the bible and some that know there is additional historic evidence of a relationship of Above Human Beings to humans. Atheists are often more practical thinkers but they too can get entrenched in their own mindset.

          When someone tells me something I don’t know, I don’t discount it out of hand. I think about it and research it sometimes and I change my thinking if it makes sense to, at least until I see something else that might still bring about further changes.

          But you are so wrong about why I give this conversation any time at all but of course you can believe what you want to believe about me.

        • Kodie

          Generalizations work just fine when none of you can avoid “prove nothing exists!”

          I woke up with the tv on, and Lost in Space was on, sounded like what you’re talking about. It’s a campy tv show from the late 1960s, not reality.

        • Stephen ProTruth

          I watched that as a kid and even though it was silly it was a forerunner of things to come so was a stimulus of advanced thoughts set to sci-fi so people could accept it easier. The truth of it is that the creators are actually people from the future in the sense that the human evolutionary kingdom is in each members past as they climbed the evolutionary ladder when it was offered to them and they hit the deck running to get on board with their program. The Next Level Crews provide those hints to their future to movie makers and inventors and we can think they were our ideas – and they then can become our ideas but require further pursuit to grow into a further recognition of reality beyond earth.

        • adam
        • Greg G.

          Another inactive post.
          I will reply here.

          So Greg then says…
          “I have sat on a white horse, was I the return of “Jesus”? So you’ve got NOTHING”

          Greg who? It wasn’t I. But I cannot say that I would not have said something similar if I had seen your reply.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          Maybe everything exists somewhere at sometime if we can imagine it?

        • Greg G.

          There’s your problem. You can’t or won’t distinguish imaginary things from real things and will believe anything rather than confront that issue.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          You use an imaginary analogy and then claim that mine is and that I’m not confronting the issue. So then what is the issue you want me to address without imagery. Are the records that were compiled into the book called the bible all imagination equivalent to the spider-man cartoon. If that was the case then what isn’t imaginary about any history?

          Just because we’re good with posting pictures to compare apples and lsd doesn’t confront any issue I can see.

          I addressed some of the verses you quoted in Leviticus, etc. (if I recall it was you who made those comments, but if I’m mistaken I guess it doesn’t apply here) and then when I offered a way to look at it, perhaps you weren’t prepared for and I’d brought up things Jesus said, you said that the entire Jesus story was a fairy tail or some equivalent description.

          This happens to me frequently and the next stage of this comment exchange might then be to call me names, or perhaps that already started with your pictures labeled ReliiFake.

          I can understand being angry with the way religion is shoved down people’s throats and often by people who are so hypocritical all they end up doing is driving people away from what they say they believe. But what’s most strange about such religionists is that they don’t seem to believe in what they say they believe in or they wouldn’t act that way. They wouldn’t cast judgements. They wouldnt’ pray in public. They wouldn’t dress like they are holy. They wouldn’t charge interest for loans they give out. They wouldn’t sentence anyone to death. They wouldn’t cut the hands off of people who stole something. They wouldn’t commit to one person and then sleep around with others. They wouldn’t make their religion into a profit making enterprise. They wouldn’t plan their giving and claim it on their tax return. They would pay taxes if they used the money systems. They wouldn’t put themselves in the place of “God”. They wouldn’t twist and turn most everything recorded in the records to suit their beliefs. They wouldn’t be so nit picky in the words someone uses to describe their sense of a relationship with the creators. They wouldn’t condemn anyone. They wouldn’t be afraid of someone questioning their authority, even willing to banish them or tar and feather them or burn them at the stake or some equivalent to that. They wouldn’t say they were acting on Jesus behalf. They wouldn’t be accumulating vast wealth and empires. They wouldn’t be doing anything to anyone else against their will. They wouldn’t be violent. They wouldn’t be quoting Paul’s letters unless it seemed to match what Jesus taught. They wouldn’t be putting women into some subservient to male role. They wouldn’t teach things Jesus didn’t teach like how they often say anymore that God will bless you with wealth if you live by his word and then take their wealth as evidence of receiving God’s blessing. I could go on and on but I’m sure you recognize lots of this throughout the Christian and other religion heirarchies. So yes, I say we who have come out of religions are blessed to see that hypocrisy but then it’s like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The bathwater is dirty but the baby that was washed is not so why throw the baby out. The baby in this analogy is the records. It’s not like those records havn’t been examined by historians and scientists testing and dating the papyrun and matching up known history with the events depicted in many of the manuscripts. Even Josephus seemed to speak of Jesus. And sure, there have been many who have come along and said they were Jesus and/or a Christ or a maitreya or messiah, etc., but it just so happens Jesus said that would happen.

          It was after I left the cult and then after 9/11 that I began to research both political things and history and the bible and that’s when I found out that I could use it all not just tiny parts, to show evidence of who my teachers knew they were because in the cult we didn’t have bibles for the first 10 years and never had bible lessons and the two teachers didn’t justify anything they said or did by references to the bible but they knew they, their Souls had come into these two middle aged female and male human vehicles in the early 1970’s, from outer space, the literal heavens and were here to bring updates and to fulfill prophecy and yet they didn’t know what prophecies they were to fulfill until nearly a year later – the Two Witnesses prophecy – but still did not follow what was said in those passages very much. It was only after leaving them that I could line up everything they said and did as prophecy fulfillment.

          So if you want to debate, then pick the issue and I’m do my best. If it’s only going to be about whether slaves were permitted in the Moses camp and how they were treated then that’s far too limited.

          I know there were and still are people that will use those verses to justify treating people like cattle. There are stories in that book that can be used to justify just about anything but like I’ve said at best those records represent a type of taming of a primitive and often violent people. Moses had people out to get him from the first few days of their exit from slavery to the Egyptian pharaoh. There were many who fought against everything he said and conspired to turn others against him.

          Had he not set some guidelines on how to treat one another and who to have intercourse with and with some penalties many would have laughed at his rules and did anyway. People had slaves well before Moses. And people beat their slaves well before Moses. And some treated slaves as family members as Moses also recognized. The Souls or Spirits in humans, even if they are put into slavery or some other subservient role to other humans can still grow from that experience, but that won’t be generally recognized without seeing the larger picture that all humans are actually in a huge school.

          In this school, humanity gets into the human kingdom in the first 6 grades. So at 6th grade, no matter the culture and time frame in history they have arrived as a genetic strain at their most success. They have a wonderful family life, great career, all the wealth they could want, have their kids future’s paid for, give to charities may even have their burial plot paid for and life insurance plan to take care of everyone when they die.

          But in school 6th grade isn’t the final grade so the Next Level has ways to start to remove what they developed and they have the choice of how to respond as they lose their sense of security, etc. Weather phenomena is often one of the methods the Next Level uses to stir things up. The vehicles are designed to be replaced by new vehicles and the Spirit or Soul survives death and can be helped to move to the next grade circumstance. We can choose to remain at a grade by refusing to change when we are confronted by big changes. Say a hurricane wipes out one’s business on the gulf coast and even does it several times over the years. To not take that as handwriting on the wall and move someplace else might be seen by the Next Level as refusing to change so they stay in that circumstance and may even die in the circumstance.

          But some do change and continue to be challenged and eventually get to the 11th and 12th grade which is when the Next Level in that civilization sends one of their own undercover so they don’t look like they are really any different than anyone else and yet those who are in that grade in new human vehicles have the potential to recognize something they want to follow. Some do and some graduate eventually. By graduation one can not have any security in the human kingdom. They must put all their heart, mind, soul and strength into getting rid of all their human behaviors and ways and replace them with Next Level behavior and ways. when they take those lessons to heart, they are even willing to die rather than act like an animal.

          None of this is meant to be competitive. I certainly don’t think of myself as above anyone else as I don’t measure myself against fellow humans. I measure myself by my relationship to my Older Members – Ti and Do who I still have communication with and who anyone also has communication with if they seek to have it whether they use those names or not.

          If anyone wants to see the evidence of what I say here, then they will have to want to see it however they think that wanting may or may not be transmitted to Living Beings who have the technology to hear our thoughts. They are circulating in the heavens best thought about as among the stars and they are waiting to hear from some and will help those that seek to know the truth and no one else needs to know about our personal quest.

          I wish you to find whatever it is you want in life.

        • adam

          Of course, it exists in the IMAGINATION.

          No bearing on reality.

          But if you are in the business of defrauding people, why would you care?

        • Greg G.

          My book is filled with the most compelling evidence…

          Can you give a link to the compelling evidence? I looked at the first link you gave and it wasn’t there.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          Maybe your joking with me as that first link to my book provides so much evidence of what I propose in the title and subtitles of the book it would take many hours to sift through. But on the chance you want some other forms of evidence, here is another link that includes a few pictures mostly from NASA that I could tell a story about each and how it showed up at times when I was putting my book together that helped me relate some of the prophecy to said events among the sun, moon and stars (planets/comets, etc.) as Jesus taught would be seen. Then there is the body of evidence from the entire UFO subject. Then another body of evidence from the entire paranormal story, each with their distortions. But here is a link to some of the images my book relates to:

        • Greg G.

          Maybe your joking with me as that first link to my book provides so much evidence of what I propose in the title and subtitles of the book it would take many hours to sift through.

          People have been making claims, similar in kind but different in content, about things written in the Bible for over two thousand years. Read Jewish Wars 6.5.2 through 6.5.4 to see how the Jewish people in Jerusalem kept holding out against the Romans because they thought God would deliver them. Josephus tells about all the strange signs that the Jews had misread. Then he explains that they were misreading the prophecy of their writings about the coming Messiah. Josephus was “correct,” though, because he realized the prophecy about the ruler of the known world coming out of Judea was Vespasian. There probably hasn’t been a generation since at least Hasmodean times that a generation hasn’t come up with reasons to believe that their generation was the one that would see the Messiah come.

          Your “compelling evidence” looks more like mistakes that have been made for centuries. It’s more free association of current events with vague ancient statements. That’s not compelling or evidence.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          but have you looked at my compelling evidence. Was what was prophesied never going to actually occur? Maybe you think everything is made up. People nowadays shoot down Christianity using rules for slaves and servants and bond servants and strangers and other instructions for that group of people and then say the Jesus record was all made up like a sci fi movie. Religionist and secular humanists support going all over their lands and the world killing people who they feel threatened by, against the very laws they say they live by. There has been no other time in history that matches ALL the prophecies and I show that in my book but you just discount it as if it’s impossible. Suit yourself. I gain nothing but having people believe in what I have been given because it won’t ever appeal to masses unless there is enough time for the lower forces on the planet to compel humans to once again distort it all, disguising the truth.

        • MNb

          “so much evidence”
          If evidence in your dictionary means humbug combined with incoherent interpretations, yes, then that first link to your “book” is full of it. So is this new link of yours.

    • Why/how did you avoid the suicide by the others in Heaven’s Gate?

      • Sawyer Heavensgate

        It was always easy to leave right from the start. In fact the truth is it was harder to stay than to leave as Ti and Do never wanted anyone to follow them if they didn’t insist upon doing so and then prove to them we meant it by our actions. In 1976 there were about 100 students and Ti and Do sent 19 of them out of the group because they weren’t proving to them they wanted to be there and abide by all their teachings. At that time some of them were still smoking pot and having sex with other followers which was taboo to be in their group. Here is a post I made long ago that partially describes the way Ti and Do “vetted” the group members directly and indirectly:

    • Kevin K

      Seek psychiatric counseling.

      • Greg G.

        I went to the link he provided. TI and DO, spoke to the Heaven’s Gate bunch just before they killed themselves. Then they were known as Bo and Peep.

        If it is a joke, it is too poorly written to hold one’s interest to get to the punchline. If it isn’t a joke, I concur with your diagnosis.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          I’m not sure I understand what you are saying here. These Two first took the names Bo and Peep in 1975 when they first attracted students. After their 1260 days of prophecy were completed they soon took new names of DO and TI, like from the sound of music song (also see Rev 14’s “song”). There is no joke to anything I have written or given links to but this entire story needs a great deal of attention by anyone who want’s to see it’s full scope.

        • adam

          ” There is no joke to anything I have written or given links to but this
          entire story needs a great deal of attention by anyone who want’s to see
          it’s full scope.”

          It sounds like a joke, and you sound like a joke.


        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          Which one are you, the Nothing person or the evidence person?

          If nothing that’s fine as I gain absolutely nothing whether you believe in what I believe in or not. But if you want evidence then you will have to work for it and I will provide all the tools but you can go find them yourself as well but if you don’t seek it out, you won’t find it. I provided links to some of the evidence from the perspective of the “records”.

        • adam

          I am the evidence person, you’ve already claimed to be the Nothing person.

          “But if you want evidence then you will have to work for it ”

          I have been working on it for almost 50 years and what I find is that people like you who keep claiming evidence you dont present, are FRAUDS, CON MEN or mentally ill.

          “I provided links to some of the evidence from the perspective of the “records”.”

          If you had actual evidence it would already be obvious, you are committing FRAUD.

        • adam
        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          That could be said about the president of every country – a person at the top who knows what they say to the public is a scam – the art of the deal. Today science is also a religion. Take a look at the way global warming has become a mission by the secular democrates many of which are new age spiritualists without “spirit” because they don’t believe in the existence of “spirits”.

          And the republicans are yet another cult that like the democrates but in a different way foster predatory wars all over the planet and justify murder and pillage, often touting religion as the greater god and calling innocents collateral damage. That’s some cult isnt’ it?

          If you think Jesus wasn’t the most dangerous cult of his time, you don’t know the real Jesus.

          And anyway, the Heaven’s Gate cult was formed by TWO teachers and they acknowledged they were the “cult of cults” and the “cult of truth” and yet stand alone and unique amidst all the other cults – traditional or not which I show tons of evidence of to those who want to know that truth and can stand to handle it.

        • Kodie

          I am guessing you are warned by your cult leaders that you will be called a gullible brainwashed fool, and then to brush it off with some lame excuse that makes you feel like you’re worthwhile.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          Yes my cult leaders who are no longer in human vehicles knew that anyone who spoke to the public about what they knew would be ridiculed and condemned and fought against and ignored and treated as they were treated which is exactly what happened to the followers of the Jesus cult when he instructed them to lay down their lives in His service to receive the same treatment he received. It’s actually a training program by otherworldy beings, but the beings who created everything. I already know I’m not worthwhile without them and what they gave me that “caught” me like a fish in 1975.

          How strange the logic that claims to know what motivates me, when you’ve only heard a few words from my mouth on these pages. Why is it so disturbing to hear to cause someone to lash out against another when they said nothing to offend or threaten anyone, that is unless the truth is now seen as an offense?

        • Greg G.

          If you think Jesus wasn’t the most dangerous cult of his time, you don’t know the real Jesus.

          Hey Ignorant Amos! Imma gonna need some help putting my Christmas irony meter back together.

        • adam

          “Today science is also a religion.”

          Not by any measurable means, so this is what is called a LIE.

          “If you think Jesus wasn’t the most dangerous cult of his time, you don’t know the real Jesus.”
          The Jesus story is about a nutjob who thought the world was going to end during his generation.

          You know a loser version of Nostradamus.

          ” “cult of truth” ”


          “which I show tons of evidence of to those who want to know that truth and can stand to handle it.”

          No, we have read through your incoherent ramblings and you offer no evidence, ONLY emotional OPINION.

    • adam
      • Sawyer Heavensgate

        This is taking what Jesus was talking about way out of context and even using a translation that opens the door to inaccuracies. It was given as a parable, a story. The word “slave” was used in place of “servant” which is anyone who has committed to be in the employ of another, unlike the way people are forced into submission as in the Jim Crow south and without rights and the kindness and consideration and respect for their families that Jehovah gave to Moses on the subject. Service is not a bad thing because we who want to be members of the Kingdom in the literal heavens must want to serve and even want to be “slaves” and “puppets” for the Older Members of the Next Level to know our hearts are being filled with what their hearts are filled with. It’s a qualification. The entire human kingdom is a set up of a school some can qualify to graduate and noting is given that doesn’t require us to work to have as James talks about. So this parable was illustrating when we make such a commitment to an employer to not think we can go behind that employers back to do differently from what we know would please that employer and that if we do there will be a penalty because they knew better. But for Jesus disciples there was a higher standard than is said in this parable and that was to “turn the other cheek” when someone wrongs you. Then, though you may lose your human life you will be pleasing the Kingdom of God so your soul will be saved for a future lesson opportunity to eventually graduate the human condition.

        • adam

          “This is taking what Jesus was talking about way out of context and even using a translation that opens the door to inaccuracies.”

          No, Jesus could have just as easily said:
          It aint right to own another human being as property,

          But you have realize what he said as his dad:

          “The word “slave” was used in place of “servant” which is anyone who has committed to be in the employ of another,”

          ‘servants’ are not OWNED AS PROPERTY TO PASS to YOUR CHILDREN

          “The entire human kingdom is a set up of a school some can qualify to
          graduate and noting is given that doesn’t require us to work to have as
          James talks about. ”

          so for millions of years, God just ignored human being?

          “Then, though you may lose your human life you will be pleasing the
          Kingdom of God so your soul will be saved for a future lesson
          opportunity to eventually graduate the human condition.”

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          First off, we have all died before in one of two ways. Genetically we are as plants that have a season of growth and then die off, compared to wheat and then come up in the next season. Each humans grows with it’s own mind, it’s a genetic mind, the offload of the programming it accepted while their physical body (hardware) was alive. That program construct with it’s most density coming from the brain cells electromagnetic field continues to operate and seek to express itself and feel alive but can only do so then through another human vehicle (computer system) so it attachs to the humans it’s drawn to, and gets to influence a human to think, say and do the very same things it used to think, say and do when evolving in a vehicle.

          Regarding slaves verse servants, that’s fine but I’m claiming everything in the Bible is 100% inspired by the Evolutioary Level Above Human anyway as like all the religions there were seeds of distortion sown and anyway Jesus brought updates.

          According Ti and Do that I later learned for myself, the lessons in the Old testament were for the equivalent of “toddler” souls to learn. Anyone who claims to be Christian can certainly refer to those materials as I have but to act accordingly when it comes to how to treat another person would be wrong given that Jesus brought updates to treat all people as we want to be treated. That’s part of why he was killed by the religious who used the government to execute so they wouldn’t be blamed by the people that considered Jesus the messiah. Additionally, some of what Moses was said to have written was distorted though I only have guesses
          about some of it. I don’t pretend to be an Old Testament scholar. Also it’s very easy to misinterpret certain verses or take them out of context.

          Even still, it would be easy to make a case that says humans treat other humans as slaves and some as servants and feel justified to force them into submission with our without religious motivations. One doesn’t have to call it slavery but it really amounts to the same ownership of people whether their is a written contract or not. How many thousands hate their jobs and/or are mistreated because of their race, gender, class, sexual orientation, beliefs, etc.

          And in a world that has no creators, no higher being instructions and guidelines, what’s wrong with doing anything to other humans to thrive and survive? Going into another country and killing or displacing millions (as in Iraq) is just one animal lording over another because they can so tough luck I guess to the victims.

          But for the atheists among whom I often relate best because of seeing how the religions are no longer about godliness (though can’t judge each person, only the institutions that teach the distortions of what they consider their core teachings), there really is no logical explanation for goodness in general. It’s like trying to teach a tiger to feel compassion for the lamb. How is that done? How did humans gain compassion for other creatures and/or fellow humans?

          Let’s face it, Humans are obviously not the brightest intelligence in the universe by far. If they were then they would know how to design ecosystems and planetary systems and would be able to easily change the weather and easily explain how the brain works and what consciousness is and how all the genetic code works and would be able to heal all diseases and how to design new life forms that provide new functional options and would understand why comets come in many shapes and sizes and have different outputs and contain different mineral constructs.

          So the idea that there are Living Beings who designed it all or at the least know how it all works is logic. But then in steps religion and it’s so interesting that Christians say they believe in Jesus yet don’t’ often teach what he said to teach nor do what he said to do but instead have become anti-Jesus and that’s exactly what Jesus said would happen at this time at the end of the 2000 year age. He said there would be false-Christ(ian)s and what do we have – people that claim to be Christian yet are antichrist as they don’t even know what the Christing process meant. This alone alerts someone that there’s more than meets the eye.

          If the designers choose to wipe out a million vehicles with a tsunami who am I to say they are wrong to do so. They can turn around and grow another billion very easily. However that doesn’t give any one of us license to do the same and justify it as humans do religious or not.

        • Greg G.

          You are making the mistake about Bible slavery that Christians tend to make. There were foreigners bought with money that could be beaten to death without punishment if they suffered a day or two before dying. The servants would be indentured servants, which were fellow Israelis who served for six years and were given money and livestock at the end of the servitude. Only the fellow Israelis were not to be treated harshly while the slaves could be treated like slaves.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          If you can point me to the references where foreigners could be beaten to death I’d be interested in reviewing it more. However that won’t change the overview I feel I’ve been given of it all because according Ti and Do that I later learned for myself, the lessons in the Old testament were for the equivalent of “toddler” souls to learn. Anyone who claims to be Christian can certainly refer to those materials as I have but to act accordingly when it comes to how to treat another person it’s wrong given that Jesus brought updates and was part of the reason he was killed for doing. Additionally, some of what Moses was said to have written was distorted though I only have guesses about some of it. I don’t pretend to be an Old Testament scholar..

          Also it’s very easy to misinterpret certain verses.

          Now with what jesus taught, I think we can trust that every word from Jesus is accurate enough. I say this for two reasons. I have studied it all and with a few exceptions see the way it updates the Old testament teachings and/or was meant to pave the way for the next lesson step upon his return. Ultimately I believe we can count on Jesus words because my teachers Ti and Do said so and they proved to me in many ways that they were the same Souls who were incarnate before.

        • Greg G.

          If you can point me to the references where foreigners could be beaten to death I’d be interested in reviewing it more.

          Exodus 21:20-21 (NRSV)20 When a slaveowner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

          Leviticus 25:44-46 (NRSV)44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.

          Regarding the Passover meal:

          Exodus 12:43-45 (NRSV)43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance for the passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, 44 but any slave who has been purchased may eat of it after he has been circumcised; 45 no bound or hired servant may eat of it.

          Regarding sacrificed foods:

          Leviticus 22:10-11 (NRSV)10 No lay person shall eat of the sacred donations. No bound or hired servant of the priest shall eat of the sacred donations; 11 but if a priest acquires anyone by purchase, the person may eat of them; and those that are born in his house may eat of his food.

          These passages show that there is a distinction between bought slaves and indentured (bound or bond) servants and hired hands.

          If TI and DO didn’t get this straight, what else did they screw up?

          Now with what jesus taught, I think we can trust that every word from Jesus is accurate enough.

          I have looked at everything the epistles say about Jesus, and it looks like the early epistles only knew about Jesus from the Old Testament. They thought the Suffering Servant passages were history in the form of a mystery disguised as a metaphor. None of them know anything about a first century Jesus. The gospels are a fictional mixture of the fictional literature of the day.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          First off Ti and Do didn’t teach from the Bible, though they maintained that the Next Level Crew preparing for the scheduled return worked very hard to be sure to preserve what Jesus taught and thought that certain students were given to take notes, the reason why there are different versions of the same events. Members of the Next Level can be among us and be physical and yet remain hidden, or they can work from their spacecrafts in a number of ways. They are futuristic time travelers in a sense because they already know what we can and cannot do as it’s part of the limitations put on humans in the human “corrals”. I know that hurts some human’s pride but to the Next Level we are like wild horses they gather, even capture (the real meaning of rapture – “caught away”. So They and I are NOT Christians. For instance Pauls epistles that became the base of catholisim and most sects thereafter are not to be trusted at all if they don’t reflect what Jesus said. People can be in denial that the Jesus record is real but there is a great deal of reasons to recognize that it was totally real but I don’t need to bring up that evidence if someone has already made their mind up as it’s of no value to me to have more people believe in what I believe. It’s just my job and I’m not saying I don’t enjoy seeing some recognize the reality that DO was the same individual Older Member from the Evolutionary Level Above Human that the records show as Adam, Enoch, Moses, Elijah and Jesus and that the individual depicted as Elohim and Jehovah and The Father was His Older Member in the incarnation named TI. I have proven this with many evidences but it will not be evidence to anyone who doesn’t want to know the whole truth because they have recognized the corruption in all the religions. The Next Level are in reality most like a Star Trek crew where they have the ability to cloak their appearance when they visit a planet with an upcoming civilization growing on it. The difference though is that in the Next Level they have no human mammalian behaviors. They don’t reproduce like animals. They don’t kill one another like animals. They don’t steal from one another like animals. They don’t back bite and slander others. They don’t give in to anger. They don’t fight with one another. They don’t procreate. Just like humans are learning to develope test tube babies, they have for trillions and trillions of years to some unknown power been able to literally grow physical bodies of all types and colors and characteristics on a vine – to adulthood. They are beautiful bodies and have various functions built into them but unlike human bodies that operate on their own when fed, etc. they require a strong Mind to operate sort of like a advanced flying machine requires a highly trained pilot to operate. They have a way to grow that kind of Mind by using a human body as a type of incubator and the training program is done completely undercover so no humans can tell who has been given that computer chip like, subtle physical “deposit” or not.

          Humans are all animals as we know. The only thing that separates them from the animal kingdom is that they have the capacity to choose to outgrow their animal ways. I don’t know what parts of the Old Testament records attributed to Moses were written by Moses and like I said to another, that was at best the development of civility to the equivalent of “toddlers” in the human kingdom where adults in the human kingdom would be nearing graduation of the 12th grade.

          It’s interesting in those verses you provided that a “slave” was allowed to eat of the same food provided during the passover event as those in that “classroom” after they have given their flesh (circumcision) sacrifice but the “bound or hired servants may not eat of it. So the Slave was accepted into their “family” and had most of the same rights. There had to be laws that included punishment because like animals and human toddlers for instance, if they don’t have a certain amount of discipline – consequences to their actions, they won’t learn how to get along in the adult world. If one doesn’t swat the backside of a puppy they will not associate that minor pain to pooping on the floor.

          Now I’m not promoting corporal punishment because we are hopefully as a society more mature and are the product of the updates Jesus provided, though some are not. Some don’t even live by those Moses toddler laws and they even wear suits and yet justify murder and collateral damage which is another topic but is related as there are some humans that have no Next Level Mind in their programming so they don’t make any bones about killing humans they determine are lessor than they are who are in their way.

          So you have built your case against the existence of a real Kingdom of many members who are evolved beyond human who created everything on records you choose to use to make your case just like religionists do – picking and choosing what is or isn’t a historic record. I’m not saying it’s all trustworthy but a student of that record will learn to see inconsistencies rather than throw out the entire record, like saying that Jesus didn’t exist and was a made up fairy tale. That’s just seeking an escape from what’s real the same as is done with many things especially these days.

          Ti and Do didn’t screw up anything but there is a long list of ways people see them as screwing up all the time, yet each time they said something that didn’t come to pass in exactly the way it sounded like it was meant to come to pass and they changed it resulted in some of the followers dropping out of their group. They knew many of the things they said would become reasons for some to drop out and they didn’t want anyone to drop out unless they didn’t want to abide by everything they taught and everything they taught continues to boggle the minds of most everyone who studies what they taught.

          I wish I could convince people, not for me as I have no cult and am not a leader, don’t make any money from doing this and it’s actually been more detrimental to my human life than beneficial as I’ve been run out of churches, blocked from chat rooms, defriended, avoided, disassociated with, falsely accused of stuff by even some who believe in Ti and Do, not to fail mention of many religionists, chrisitans and atheists, which gives me no pleasure.

        • adam

          ” So the Slave was accepted into their “family” and had most of the same rights.”

          Now you are just being downright EVIL

          When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that
          the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the
          slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the
          slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

        • Greg G.

          I am replying here to a post that is reported to be no longer active.


          Additionally, some of what Moses was said to have written was distorted though I only have guesses
          about some of it. I don’t pretend to be an Old Testament scholar.

          Moses didn’t exist either. There was no Exodus. There were never large numbers of Israelis in Egypt. The Hebrews appear to have been a sect of the Canaanites, which the Israelis did not commit genocide on. Some parts of the Old Testament are somewhat exaggerated. The rest is either mostly wrong or completely wrong. The New Testament was made up from pretending the Old Testament made sense in a way the authors didn’t imagine.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          Well perhaps you also believe you can prove the earth is flat and/or doesn’t turn and that the moon is a hologram and that nothing from NASA is real, there never have been space aliens, there are no other creatures in the universe and none that could design plantery systems and that the moon landing was in hollywood and that big foot is impossible and that the kennedy assisination was caused by a curving bullet and that 9/11 happened exactly the way the party line dictated.

          It’s very convenient to gravitate to the information that least challenges us. Then we don’t have to think outside the box do we.

        • Greg G.

          Ha ha ha. It’s not often that somebody says I don’t think outside the box. We are atheists in a country that is 80% Christian. Just requiring evidence for belief seems to be thinking outside the box.

          The Egyptian archaeologists have produced evidence that there was never large numbers of Israelis in Egypt over 3000 years ago. Jewish and Christian archaeologists have diligently searched the Sinai for evidence of the Exodus for over a century but it has been futile. If a couple of million people wandered the desert for 40 years, one would stumble over evidence effortlessly. Israeli archaeologists have found lots of sites from around that time period that show no sign of an abrupt culture change, only similar cultures with one difference: some have pig bones and some do not. It would be irrational to think a culture to wiped out another culture, then adopted all the culture they had just eliminated. The evidence shows that the Hebrew religion just evolved within the culture.

          See? That’s what evidence can tell us. Unambiguous evidence can separate the fact from imagination. It’s not that difficult to point to vague ancient prophecies and apply them to current events. People have done it for Bible prophecies for many centuries and it never works out.

          You promised compelling evidence. I went to the site and didn’t see any. I asked where the compelling evidence was and you said there was some on the page I saw. I checked out a couple of other sites on the subject. Still no compelling evidence. If you have some, bring it.

        • MNb

          “It’s not often that somebody says I don’t think outside the box.”
          Oh, I’m totally willing to maintain that you refuse to think outside of the box you build for yourself. No problem afaIc.

        • Stephen ProTruth

          The records from that time indicated there were “600,000” men. I’m not sure what one would do to document they existed besides the fact that that genetic strain exists today and it seems they had very few artifacts that would have been special to their culture and what can one tell from bones and clothing should any of those things been preserved. Why discount they existed anyway. There are many records found. If it was all made up what isn’t made up. Did the Egyptians employ slaves? I bet they did. That was quite common in I suspect most if not all human cultures.

          I am curious what you learned about “pig bones”?

          Compelling evidence? What form would that have to be in. Were the dead sea scrolls pretty compelling evidence of a hebrew community? The essenes was one of the sects. They found in those jars in Qumram the book of Isaiah and other materials that showed evidence of other connections. I’m not a historian except as needed to write my book. I’m not saying all those records are 100 accurate but the overall gist certainly shows consistency with what came to be afterwards.

        • adam

          “However that won’t change the overview I feel ”

          Of course not, your arent interested in truth, but EMOTION

        • adam

          “, I think we can trust that every word from Jesus is accurate enough.”

          So you obviously follow all the old Jewish laws?

        • adam

          “, I think we can trust that every word from Jesus is accurate enough.”

          But we have evidence where it is not accurate at all

        • Greg G.

          From a post below that does not have an active Reply function:

          I wish I could convince people, not for me as I have no cult and am not a leader, don’t make any money from doing this and it’s actually been more detrimental to my human life than beneficial as I’ve been run out of churches, blocked from chat rooms, defriended, avoided, disassociated with, falsely accused of stuff by even some who believe in Ti and Do, not to fail mention of many religionists, chrisitans and atheists, which gives me no pleasure.

          You have my sympathy. This sounds like Paul’s laments when he was pushing his version of Christianity/Judaism.

    • adam
      • Sawyer Heavensgate

        That’s right, when we separate from our human families which is required to graduate into membership in the Next Level family that will be seen by the human family as going against them and it is but not personally speaking. In other words, if they try to stop us from giving our all to God, then whether they know it or not they are being manipulated by the lower forces of the planet. This is assuming someone is not a little child and has come into some maturity as before that, they need to honor their parents instructions. But once they reach adulthood they are free to make any choices they want to make, though if they want to please their Heavenly Father they must abide by everything taught by Jesus. It becomes adversarial among families because of how the truth became corrupted in between visitations from Older Members from the Kingdom of God so that people that claim to be godly are often only godly with their mouth and not with their actions. Plus when Jesus came he brought updates and those that were the children of the corrupt one didn’t recognize those updates as fully consistent with what had been taught before through Moses.

        The same thing is happening now since Jesus came back in the name DO with his Father incarnate also (See Rev 12 “woman”) fulfilling the Two Witnesses task and Christians many times hate them they most. People can quote Jesus all day long and still not know his Mind which Jesus said would happen at this time at the end of that age.

        • adam

          ” if they try to stop us from giving our all to God,”

          Not what the bible state.

          “This is assuming ”

          you appear to be doing all assuming.

          “It becomes adversarial among families because of how the truth became
          corrupted in between visitations from Older Members from the Kingdom of

          This is the VERY best YOUR “God” has to offer?

          Have any evidence to back up your STORY?

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          The Older Members of the Evolutionary Kingdom Level Above human, once called the Kingdom of God and Kingdom in the literal heavens (outer space) actually provide “evil” as a form of fertilizer for their “planted” “soul-seeds”. This then provides all humans with the choice to become kin to that evil or to reject evil to grow to become a member in the Next Level. What is or isn’t evil becomes relative to what we accept as right and wrong. If for instance we believe that killing of other humans is evil that can be shown to have originated in the records as “you shall not kill” yet how many religious groups find excuses to kill other humans.

          But these Creator Gods I speak of own all the planets and all the life forms whether we like it or not so if they want to grow humans and then wipe them out it’s their prerogative just like a farmer will grow a crop and plow it under some some of the life forms die while others are harvested to serve them.

          It’s understandable that the religions have become wrought with hypocrisy and the proponents of distortions of what was provided. The facts are that humans truely create nothing. If the humans did not exists the animals and plants and minerals still could but humans won’t exist with the lower kingdom levels.

          You say I make assumptions but then give me an example, otherwise what good is saying that.

          Evidence of my story? What would be evidence to you? Granted we all need to open our minds to see more of what’s true.

          The best path to seeing the evidence is to project your asking are far from this planet as you can imagine, to the highest source you can imagine existing and ask if what Sawyer is saying is true or better yet ask to see the truth in what Ti and Do taught (as I can make mistakes so don’t want to mislead anyone).

          You will then get the help to see more evidence but in goes hand in hand with seeking out what is most true which can take the shape of at least being willing to look at most everything.

          Even though I don’t see any evidence of a “flat earth” I still wanted to look at what flat earth believers were using for their determination knowing that perhaps I would learn something and so I did and now I can show how what some say that’s from the bible is a misinterpretation.

          So God is both benefic and malevolent. To the potential fruit They are benefic. To the weeds They are malevolent, to use the terms from Epicurus.

          God is willing and able to prevent evil but are masters in using evil to bring about a positive result.

          Human vehicles are of great value as it is through conquering them that our minds grow but they are also expendable, the reason they have such a short lifespan because humans are perennial plants. Jesus said evil was necessary to exist but woe to those who become it’s instruments.

          humans killing other humans is an example of this evil. We humans don’t have the judgement involved with deciding to kill another human so it’s evil for us to do it. I would be better that we die than to kill another human so we don’t.

        • Stephen ProTruth

          contrary to what you think I do next to no assuming. I’d be glad to give you my basis for saying that but you must want it. You quoted tiny fragments of what I said and I can’t say everything there is to say in these little comments so I pack in a lot and I don’t plan that at all so it’s not all that cohesive. I do a better job on my youtube video’s and blog posts. My blog is at: and my youtube channel is: 3spm

        • adam

          “You quoted tiny fragments of what I said and I can’t say everything there is to say in these little comments”

          If you cant participate in the discussion, then why are you here?

          ” I do a better job on my youtube video’s and blog posts. ”

          No, you actually dont, you expose yourself as fool and an idiot.
          I already read though the B.S. from your links,

        • adam

          “contrary to what you think I do next to no assuming.”

          I’ve read your blog, it is ALL assumptions.

        • MNb

          Given the lack of sexuality in your imagined Kingdom of God those lower forces of the planet are to be preferred.

        • Greg G.

          Another post that is not active below so I am replying here.


          Evidence of my story? What would be evidence to you?

          I cannot say what your evidence must be. It could be quite surprising. It just has to connect the claims to reality and distinguish them from imagination and conjecture.

          My favorite example of evidence doing that is when Einstein’s theory predicted that the path of light would be affected by gravity. Someone realized that during a coming solar eclipse a certain star would be behind the sun, but if Einstein was correct, the light from the star would be curved and the star would be visible. Astronomers fanned out across the path of the eclipse hoping that some of them would have clear skies to make the observations.

          It turned out that the star was not only visible, it was seen precisely where the theory predicted it would be.

          Now we have GPS satellites and GPS devices that use Einstein’s equations in their calculations. If they were not accurate, GPS technology would not work.

          Granted we all need to open our minds to see more of what’s true.

          But we do not need to open our mind’s to believe what is not true, nor should we. Show us some unambiguous evidence.

        • Greg G.

          Another post that is not active below so I am replying here.


          Eleven or twelve years ago, a co-worker became a very out-spoken climate change denier. He would bring up a new argument everyday as if he had just found them on the internet. When he would bring them up in a group meeting, I would point out that his argument conflicted with the argument he produced the day before and the last two arguments were in conflict with the argument from two days earlier.

          The arguments were of three types:

          1. There is no increase in temperature.
          2. CO2 does not cause the observed increase in temperature.
          3. The CO2 from humans does not increase the temperature.

          There is a less common argument that makes even less sense and I think my friend only used it once:

          4. Other things can cause global warming.

          I spent over two minutes on the first video and nearly ten minutes on the second video and heard all four of these types of arguments.

          The religious nuts offer another argument:

          5. God is in control and would not permit global warming to harm us.

          About ten years ago, I decided to learn the physics of global warming. I was appalled at how the pages warning about global warming had very little science as if the pages were written at a pre-teen level. But the denier sites had lots of science on their pages, which I found to be useful.

          The denier sites gave the formulas and the names of the formulas. I was able to look up the formulas in basic science pages to learn how the formulas were developed. Then when I went back to the denier pages, I noticed that they all left something out. They were doing the first three types of arguments but using physics and math.

        • Stephen ProTruth

          Considering the governments are the biggest proponents of human caused global warming, right off the bat we should all see their arguments as fishy to say the least as governments are not invested in the truth even when they know it, IF by telling the truth and both sides of an argument they stand to reduce their influence on constituents who back their campaigns. They are most all professional liars but it’s called politics and business. There is a ton of evidence of this throughout history and in most every country because they are part of the human kingdom and the human kingdom was not designed by the creator beings to “work” to be a destination for a soul. It was meant to be outgrown. Now that doesn’t mean they do nothing decent or honestly and that’s also not to judge any one person. That’s not for us to do as we can’t be accurate about that but we can judge actions. For example the war on terror and the invasion of iraq has not one bit of the one true kingdom of God’s will in it, I think is very safe to say as the Lord hates humans killing other humans for any reason. And that’s just one example of many.

        • Greg G.

          Disqus isn’t taking me to the post I wanted to reply.

          There is no evidence of large numbers of Hebrews in Egypt during the period the Bible refers to, despite there being lots of evidence from the period.

          At the time the Hebrews were supposed to be in Egypt, there is evidence in Canaan of identical cultures except some sites lack pig bones while others have them. That is an indication that the Hebrew culture was developing out of Canaanite culture.

          If the Hebrews had wiped out the Canaanites, there should be evidence of a sudden change of culture. Why would a group commit genocide because it opposed the culture of the people then adopt the same culture?

          The archaeologists in Egypt had no reason to hide evidence while the Israeli archaeologists would have a motive to verify the Bible account unless they are honest.

    • Greg G.

      pro everything Jesus taught.

      Have you plucked out an eye or cut off a hand, yet? Have you become a eunuch as Jesus says in Matthew 19:12?

      • Sawyer Heavensgate

        Actually I tried to become a eunuch but did not succeed. It’s a long story but Jesus didn’t give that as an instruction. He gave it as an option that was better than losing one’s opportunity of graduating into his kingdom. Jesus taught that what one gave to the Kingdom would be their entire life, physically, emotionally (heart), mentally (mind), spiritually (soul) and in terms of effort (physical strength), as Moses taught as well. When a member of the Next Level is incarnate then all must be given to that Representative to qualify to go with him to graduate. When he left he said the instruction was to “love your neighbor as oneself”, so that’s the primary lesson step since he left though he gave many other instructions on what not to do – like pray in public for instance, which shows how far afield the religions are.

        • Michael Neville

          Actually I tried to become a eunuch

          As I said, your cult believes sex is bad. The above statement is Exhibit A.

        • Max Doubt

          “As I said, your cult believes sex is bad. The above statement is Exhibit A.”

          And it’s not even just plain old ordinary badness. There’s an element of mentally unhealthy in that sex-is-bad-ness.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          yes, relative to evolving out of the human mammalian condition to graduate into a society of living beings who have no desire for that primitive behavior.

        • Michael Neville

          So what’s the upside? You keep telling us about evolving but you never tell us what the advantage to becoming pod people is.

        • Stephen ProTruth

          The advantage is ceasing to be a temporary limited life form that gets recycled and instead gets to assist in working for Headquarters in the universe, traveling, enjoying new environments, having new challenges and helping others evolve out of their human kingdom.

        • Greg G.

          When he left he said the instruction was to “love your neighbor as oneself”, so that’s the primary lesson step since he left though he gave many other instructions on what not to do – like pray in public for instance, which shows how far afield the religions are.

          That’s what Paul said in Galatians 5:14 where he quotes Leviticus 19:18 but I think he borrowed the idea from Rabbi Hillel, a first century BC rabbi. James 2:8-10 responded to that, saying it was a good start but one must follow all the laws. He goes to show he thinks Paul was saying that it was OK to murder and steal. Galatians is all about the importance of faith rather than following the law and the Epistle of James is about following the law, responding to many points in Galatians, such as Paul says Abraham’s faith was important and James gives an example of Abraham’s deeds being important. Paul makes a point about Abe’s wife’s faith and James responds with another woman’s deeds, Rahab the prostiture. Paul then explains in Romans 13:8-10 beginning with the James 2:11 objections and re-explaining that if one loves his neighbor, he won’t be killing him, lying to him, etc.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          Wow, that’s a great perspective on the discourse that seemed to go on between James a student of Jesus and someone – Paul – who never was a student of Jesus. James knowing that “faith without works is dead” while Paul was all about diluting the importance of “works” that fostered a type of “blind faith” because it’s through changing our behaviors and ways to the specific teachings from the incarnate Older Member, at that time in the body named Jesus, that a student draws on Their “holy” Mind/Spirit – actually most true information – program that becomes the basis of their faith because they experience the greater perspective that comes by performing the “work” – the service, what DO said true “worship” was – “working for” one’s Older Member from the Kingdom in the Heavens.

          Paul certainly learned some things about what Jesus taught from Jesus’ students, but he got way too big for his britches and some of the students of Jesus clearly knew it and didn’t trust him and it appears you have shown how, in this case it was addressed.

          It was through adherence to what Paul wrote that really set into motion what then became institutional Christianity that today doesn’t resemble much of anything Jesus taught so that today Christians, whether they know it or not have become their own dreaded “antichrist” – anti-Jesus while using his name like Jesus said would happen.

          Thus when He (The Soul in the vehicle named Jesus) returned incarnate, Christians by in large would be the LAST one’s to recognize Him because He would be saying the same things He said during his Jesus incarnation and they would have been taught to see him differently – see him in a pollyanna spiritualist fashion, easy for anyone to claim studentship with. DO said that Christians hardly stood a chance. But saying “hardly” was like when he said, a rich man could hardly enter the kingdom of God, though that it wasn’t impossible.

          That possibility for Christians to see the whole truth thereby exists. They can be among the students in the LAST (second) Harvest Wave and to be among those in either the FIRST or LAST harvest Wave is an honor and blessing but it will be very challenging just like it was when Jesus was in the flesh (incarnate) (son of man – offspring of human).

          He returned with His “Father” as he said he would in:

          Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
          Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

          The world was not going to see him then because he was going to be incarnate again and the fact that he comes with his Father this last time is evident in a number of places. The Father is the Revelation 12 Woman and he is the male child born to the throne task – made into a Father by taking his student souls through their remaining overcoming of their humanness.

          The Two Witnesses are both Anointed, both Candlesticks/Lampstands, Olive Trees and thus both Christs having both overcome the human kingdom long ago and even many times to try to bring new student souls into membership in their many membered Kingdom.

          Rev 3:12 shows that He has a new name and that he will identify his Father who he will tell his students the name of. The names became TI and DO, named after the SONG (Revelation 14) from the Sound of Music – Doe a Deer they felt was to help them and their students wake up through.

          TI didn’t identify herself as the Father. DO recognized it by working with “her” and he resisted the idea. DO didn’t identify himself as the return of Jesus until TI said that he was, though He didn’t return with that same physical body he took with him into the spacecraft as their return needed to be a new teaching time period, though it appears He is slated to return one last time as shown in Revelation 19.

          The Two Witnesses were to prophesy. That means they “speak”. They need to have human vehicles to speak to the human vehicles the returned Souls that were their disciples past would need to take over to follow them.

          There is a lot more to say. There is nothing hidden that is not being revealed at this time but the only dependable source of the whole truth is found by studying everything Ti and Do taught and I will provide that to anyone freely and if one wants to see what they taught in relationship to all the prophecies then my book is available and I tried to put some of it on video tapes on my youtube channel: 3spm .

        • MNb

          “an option that was better than losing one’s opportunity of graduating into his kingdom”
          Lots of things are better than losing that opportunity.

        • Glad2BGodless

          “Actually I tried to become a eunuch but did not succeed.”


    • Michael Neville

      I have read what’s at Sawyer’s link. That’s 45 minutes I’ll never get back. UFOs, Lucifer and his Lucifierian minions (Paul was Lucifer’s emissary), advancing to the Next Level (which cannot be done by mere humans, they must be led there), apostles sent to the Next Level by death and receiving new “vehicles” which are grown on vines because sex are bad, and so much more. It’s not only claptrap but tedious, banal, tiresome claptrap. I’ve read tax laws which were more interesting.

      • Sawyer Heavensgate

        I never said sex was bad unless one chooses to give all their love to the Kingdom of God as Jesus taught and Paul confirmed. It then becomes “bad” because the Kingdom of God has no sexuality, the reason they were giving instructions to eliminate promiscuity – to have only one mate for life as Jesus said was the first lesson step that was compromised because it was too hard for most to embrace. But this is why Jesus said upon return the students would not marry nor be given in marriage. Students had to become celibate in mind and body to prepare to have a physical body that didn’t have a way to express itself sexually so it needed to be burned out of us by our own effort BEFORE anyone would be admitted into heaven. But for those that don’t feel inclined to taken this same pathway, sexuality is perfectly natural – It’s part of the human mammalian kingdom of life.

        I understand it’s strange and hard to see as reflecting reality but for those who claim to believe in Jesus, that’s because they’ve been fed a diluted distorted view of Jesus. He was actually as much a dangerous cult leader in his day as Ti and Do were in their days and still are seen that way by most. But the Next Level doesn’t’ need new members so they make it very hard to become a member, yet they help all those who seek to have the help to break away from their human attachments, behaviors and ways when they ask for that help in whatever terms.

        We are all in a big school on earth and each moves into their next grade when they are ready and some flunk out and get to try again.

        At least you gave it a little shot.

        • Michael Neville

          Students had to become celibate in mind and body to prepare to have a physical body that didn’t have a way to express itself sexually so it needed to be burned out of us by our own effort BEFORE anyone would be admitted into heaven.

          In other words, sex is bad.

          It always amazes me how religions are so anti-sex. I believe that’s because sex is strongly emotional and religions don’t like emotions that they can’t control. Your favorite cult is just like the others except that instead of just fornication (extra-marital sex) being forbidden, all sex is forbidden. I can see why you have so few adherents to your cult, it’s more controlling than most.

        • Another possibility: religions make hard-to-meet demands about sex so that when people fail, they’re more dependent on the church. Guilt and donations often follow.

        • Sawyer Heavensgate

          So what is the hard to meet demand of Christianity? Celibacy – that’s not a demand? Now tithing is a demand and I agree uses guilt to justify as buying your way to some illusion of heaven. My teachers didn’t teach religion nor did they teach out of the bible. Nor did they automatically discount things very easily. Nor did they seek members. Sex to them was primitive. Their society have outgrown it. They were from the only future human mammals can ever see. They don’t need new members. They have only so many seats/positions on their spacecrafts and in their planet sized laboratories that are completely scientific but where their science isn’t limited in all the many ways humans and their science is limited. For instance they have elements that provide anti-gravity. The grow physical bodies, some of which can actually be spacecrafts that can turn invisible to all human detection. They can design a civilization that could exist on a planet we could observe and not see any part of it because they fully control the allowable light frequencies the eyes of the creatures they grow can decode. They are not religious or spiritual yet are responsible for where those ideas came from.

        • It doesn’t much matter the story. You’re giving us yet another example of a religion suppressing sex.

        • MNb

          “So what is the hard to meet demand of Christianity?”
          Given the lack of sexuality in the Kingdom of God this is not hard at all – I have every desire not to meet it.

        • Greg G.

          Sex to them was primitive. Their society have outgrown it.

          Why not pitch their schtick to old people who have lost the ability to perform? Or is it just made to appeal to those who cannot get laid anyway?

        • Carol Lynn

          “Old people” do not *necessarily* give up sex when they can’t perform or viagra would not be a thing.

        • adam

          “So what is the hard to meet demand of Christianity? Celibacy – that’s not a demand?”

          No, that is actually the easy one

          Are you perfect yet?

        • Max Doubt

          “My teachers didn’t teach religion nor did they teach out of the bible. Nor did they automatically discount things very easily. Nor did they seek members. Sex to them was primitive. Their society have outgrown it.”

          Healthy people enjoy sex. If you don’t, you might consider taking that up with a competent mental health counselor or therapist.

        • Carol Lynn

          Sawyer H. could be asexual. That’s OK, too, but not everyone is asexual, obviously, and it can’t be made into some kind of religious mandate and expect to get many followers.

        • Kodie

          Well, Christianity has plenty of followers and, although they put it a little differently, pretty much the same view of sex. Sawyer says his cult doesn’t need new members so doesn’t need to procreate at all, but the regular Christian way is that sex is dirty, aka, lust is a primitive instinct, which it technically is, so they advise marital fucking is fine, rather than fornication. That doesn’t mean Christians stay away from having sex before or outside of marriage, but in the Christian cults, Jesus can forgive them for being primitive animals. In Sawyer’s cult, they don’t get to graduate. What I’m saying is, with the proper brainwashing course, prospective members of this spaceship cult will self-loathe because of their sexual urges and try to overcome them because the next level becomes more important to them. I didn’t read all of Sawyer’s crap, but I don’t know if the cult is that forgiving. It sounds to me like they make harsh rules, raise the expectations, and aren’t so needy as the Christians to retain faulty members who can’t stick to the rules.

          I actually think asexuality is not that common, and neither is gullibility for this fringe spaceship cult, so it would be difficult to filter in only people who are asexual in the first place. Asexuality is a pretty good quality for many religions, so I think it’s probably made up mostly of people raised as Christians (who are already primed to be conflicted about sex (like priest candidates must be???) or like what the cult offers that they accept the challenge. And probably cheat, but who would know?

          As far as I can’t tell, Sawyer is left behind some suicide cult and wasn’t allowed to join them on the spaceship. He sounds like he still believes what they were preaching, but they rejected him and excluded him from the mass suicide, and now he’s alone.

        • MNb

          “the Kingdom of God has no sexuality”
          Then save me this terrible prospect.

        • adam

          ” because the Kingdom of God has no sexuality, ”

          Imaginary Kingdoms have IMAGINARY settings.

        • Max Doubt

          “We are all in a big school on earth and each moves into their next grade when they are ready and some flunk out and get to try again.”

          Lemme guess. You’re sitting around a dorm room with some stoner pals and playing with philosophical notions like brain-in-a-vat and the matrix and stuff. Here’s a clue: You’ve either smoked too much weed or not enough. If you must dabble in philosophical masturbation, have the decency to keep it among your buddies. We’re mostly adults in this forum, and most of us are far beyond that kind of college kid bong smokin’ philosophical circle jerk. When you grow up, you’ll appreciate reality more if you don’t try so hard to avoid it now. Meantime, go have a few more bong hits and enjoy that for its own pleasure.

      • “Chloroform in print” was Mark Twain’s analysis of the Book of Mormon.

      • Greg G.

        I read through it very quickly and I assumed I may have missed something. I did get all of that, too.

        • adam

          I thought I read in there that Seth Rich was murdered by Chelsea Clinton.

        • Greg G.

          I didn’t… Wait a minute… Are you trying to trick me into reading it again?

        • adam

          I couldnt make it through a first time.

      • Pofarmer

        Now imagine that people waste time actually coming up with this garbage.