10 Commandments (for Atheists)

10 Commandments (for Atheists) November 2, 2018

The authors of the 2014 book Atheist Mind, Humanist Heart: Rewriting the Ten Commandments for the Twenty-first Century sponsored a competition for a new set of atheist Ten Commandments. Here are the winners:

  1. Be open minded and be willing to alter your beliefs with new evidence.
  2. Strive to understand what is most likely to be true, not to believe what you wish to be true.
  3. The scientific method is the most reliable way of understanding the natural world.
  4. Every person has the right to control over their body.
  5. God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life.
  6. Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognise that you must take responsibility for them.
  7. Treat others as you would want them to treat you and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.
  8. We have the responsibility to consider others including future generations.
  9. There is no one right way to live.
  10. Leave the world a better place than you found it.

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We could tweak the wording, swap out a few, or maybe add a few more (what’s magical about ten?). Overall, though, I think it’s a great list.

But not everyone was pleased. At Glenn Beck’s The Blaze, conservative commenters objected in various ways, and I waded through hundreds to get the major themes. I didn’t notice any Christian commenters applaud the general idea. Instead, they all dug in their heels in various ways.

As I go through these categories, I’ll respond only briefly, but feel free to add your own comments.

Quibbles. Some complained that they aren’t all commands—numbers 3, 4, and 5, for instance. Some are similar and could be combined—6 and 8, for instance. One commenter asked, “What is the penalty for violating these ‘Ten Suggestions?’” (I doubt he wants to go there. The Old Testament gives death as the punishment for almost all of the original ten.)

Some of this is subjective—for example, what does it mean to leave the world a “better” place?

And that’s the problem when using the format of immutable laws from an absolute dictator as a structure for enlightened advice. Fair points, I’d say, but they (deliberately?) avoid the issue. As for the concern about subjectivity, yes, we may have different directions we’d like society to move in. Welcome to the real world.

Defiant or petulant. One commenter winsomely said, “I seem to like the original version, atheist can kiss my @ss!” Another: “They don’t seem to get that their way of life is so illogical even though they claim to be such superior intellects.”

If you’re frustrated but have no concrete complaint, I suppose this is what you’re left with. I get empty “You’re wrong! And also stupid!” comments of this sort regularly at this blog.

Atheists are hypocritical. Sure, you atheists will follow rule #1 and alter your beliefs … “unless it points to God.” You’ll follow #2 and reject that which has no evidence … “unless it’s what you think is true.” You’ll follow the scientific method … “only if it fits [your] agenda.” Summing up, “These sound like liberal commandments for others, not for themselves.”

Are atheists imperfect? Of course. But I see none of the hypocrisy that they imagine. I strive to follow these rules and would encourage those in my life to point out where I fall short.

Atheists are arrogant. “My primary argument with atheists is that they are so arrogant as to not consider that there may be a higher power than themselves.”

I’m happy to consider that. In years of searching, I’ve found negligible evidence, but I continue to seek out good arguments in favor of Christian claims.

Your list is incomplete. “Not a single word against killing, stealing, diddling someone else’s spouse, catting around while your spouse isn’t looking, being greedy or being excessively prideful. So basically, ‘Anything Goes!’”

You need commandments to be reminded not to kill someone? Anyway, #7 (“Treat others as you would want them to treat you and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated”) covers that. “Anything goes!” is neither the point of this list nor the philosophy of any atheist I know.

Where are the absolute consequences? “What happens if you break these atheist commandments? You go to not-hell? What’s the punishment? I see no reason to follow any of these if there is no God.”

“What is the incentive to be good when evil is more fun and profitable?”

Penn Jillette had a great response:

The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine.

I’ve yet to see any compelling argument for objective morality (that is, moral claims that are true whether anyone believes them or not). There are lots of enthusiastic and confident claims, but no good evidence.

Anyway, there are plenty of consequences right here. Society imposes legal or social sanctions for poor behavior. Atheists happily acknowledge the obligations they have to their family and friends. Christians who think that they’d rampage through life without God to constrain them hasn’t thought this through.

Atheists wouldn’t worry about God unless they knew he existed! About nativity displays on public property: “I would have no problem if I had neighbor who worshiped turnips, and put up a yearly display. I wouldn’t try to prohibit his freedom to do so. Why are atheists offended by religious displays? I suspect they, deep down, know and refuse to acknowledge the Divine Designer.”

So atheists are really all believers? Nope.

As for nativity displays, I don’t know why the War on Christmas® is that big a deal (except for Fox News ratings, I mean). I have no problem with a neighbor who puts up a yearly display for turnips or Jesus, just don’t do it on government property. Show respect for your Constitution. Why is this hard? The separation of church and state that prevents Christian-only displays on public property also prevents only Muslim prayers in your kids’ classrooms.

It’s all the atheists’ fault. “Back in the 60’s before prayer was kicked out of school and the teachers had a copy of the 10 Commandments on her board you never heard of any kids killing kids.”

Not really. When you look at social metrics, you find that belief is inversely related to social health. The godless Scandinavian countries embarrass the U.S. with statistics on lifespan, divorce, life satisfaction, murder, and so on.

10 atheist commandments? Must be a religion. “Funny how the supposed sect of the nonreligious has to make their ‘thoughts and beliefs’ in a form that parallels another religion.”

“If they’re trying to make themselves not a religion they’re a doing a terrible job at it.”

It’s quite a stretch to call anything within atheism a religion when atheism is a rejection of supernatural claims. As to the logic of this project, it looks to me like a reasonable and interesting challenge to take the constraints of the well-known 10 Commandments and see what it would look like if reason and evidence were the guiding principles.

Other commenters looked down their noses at Humanist chaplains and atheist church services, but there is no inconsistency. Take chaplains and church, remove the supernatural, and what remains can be useful.

Double down on Christianity. “To believe in a non belief.. So sad for them to believe that when we die, there is nothing. I choose Heaven.. These people have lost all hope.”

“You Atheists are starving. Like petulant children who stomp their feet because they resent the thought of someone being ‘in control’ other than they, themselves.”

No evidence here, just Bible quotes, Christian theology, an opportunity for proselytizing, handwaving about how great heaven will be, and Pascal’s Wager. In short: Christianity, just because.

There is more—atheists love abortion, atheism = communism, Stalin was an atheist—but you get the idea.

(I’ve written more about the Ten Commandments: about their irrelevance to modern society, how the ten that we’re familiar with aren’t the correct ten, and about an American Atheist monument put up in response to a Ten Commandments monument on (you guessed it) public property.)

Christianity has 45,000 denominations. Christians can’t even figure out their own Bible.

The intellectual and emotional energy it takes
to figure out how God fits into everything
is far greater than dealing with reality as it presents itself to us.
— Ryan Bell (“Year Without God” blog)

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(This is an update of a post that originally appeared 1/2/15.)

Image credit: Hartwig HKD, flickr, CC

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • JustinL
    • RichardSRussell

      George Carlin! Often imitated, never equaled!

      • al kimeea

        He was FUCK! FUCK of the MOUNTAINNNN!

    • Kevin K

      I’m with Carlin, you don’t need 10. They made 10 just so that people would know when they were done.

  • Jim Baerg

    “Be mindful of the consequences of all your actions and recognise that you must take responsibility for them.”
    To what extent is that possible? Some consequences are very easily foreseen and others are not.

    • Leisuresuitbruce

      To be fair, it does not specify you forsee the consequences. It could mean in hindsight. As Steve Urkel would say “did I do that?”.

    • Moreover, one’s responsibility might vary according to one’s circumstances.

  • Kevin K
  • Michael Neville

    Atheists wouldn’t worry about God unless they knew he existed!

    I couldn’t care less about God or gods or other supernatural critters. I do care that Christians and other theists try to impose their beliefs on me and people I care about. I don’t say anything about Jains or Sikhs or Shintoists because their beliefs don’t affect me. If Christians gave me the same courtesy as Mahayana Buddhists do then I wouldn’t say a word about Christianity.

  • Otto

    I would like to see more emphasis on consent…other than that it is a good start.

  • valleycat1

    I don’t like that atheists’ lists are modeled on the 10 Commandments. Somehow that seems to give credit that the 10 is the standard that we are lamely copying. Just one or two, perhaps trying to avoid a secular version of the “do unto others” commandment too (though it at least was Jesus’s replacement for the 10, which few Christians are willing to accept). Yes, I realize it is a handy literary device, but we are talking about a cohesive set of principles to live by.

  • epicurus

    Just like the actual 2nd set of OT Ten Commandments that no one uses, in addition to having mostly irrelevant contents, but is the finished version, maybe we should whip up a parallel 2nd set of Atheist/Sceptic commandments. I’ll start off with the first three:
    1. Always cheer for the Minnesota Vikings
    2. Never top a pizza with cherries boiled in orange juice
    3. Make no treaties with anyone from Dildo, Newfoundland

    • Cozmo the Magician

      Can I make a treaty with a woman from Newfoundland that has a dildo? That would be fun.

  • Cozmo the Magician

    The BEST commandment ever “Be excellent to each other” O_o

    • Greg G.

      I notice the parallel between Bill and Ted and that slogan being a parallel to Jesus’ “Love one another.”

      But when the sequel had them coming back from the dead, I knew that it was intentional.

      • Cozmo the Magician

        Been ages since I watched it. Didn’t they beat death with a game of Twister?

        • Greg G.

          I haven’t seen it in ages either but that sounds right.

        • Cozmo the Magician

          Gonna have to dig it up and watch. And by dig it up (since my DVD is long gone, I mean use the internet)

  • Jim Jones

    I’ll stick to Fred Rogers’ three commandments:

    1). Be kind

    2). Be kind

    3). Be kind

  • Michael Murray

    I’ve always wondered what the other 5 were ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXeTsWGPT0w

    • Greg G.

      I like it when Moses came to the people and said, “Well folks, I got him down to ten, but adultery is still a ‘no’.”

  • Matt Brooker

    I’m always deeply amused by the reverence shown to the ten commandments, given the number of gaps in the set – consider: a rich man from a wealthy nation moves to a poor country. He finds a community of desperate people living in abject poverty and offers them a life-changing amount of money to sell him ten little girls, aged between nine and eleven. He marries all ten girls, then spends his days smoking crack and having sex with a different one each day while the other nine are sent out to work to support his lifestyle. He finds an excuse to beat one of his child brides each day so the girls will remain terrified and obedient. So, we have slavery, pederasty, statutory rape, polygamy, drug abuse, child labour, domestic violence and child abuse. Which of the ten commandments have been violated?

  • Ficino

    But what about Hillary’s emails???!!!

    • Lark62

      BENGHAZI!!

      • Greg G.

        Lock her up!

  • I fully support them.

  • This is well done. Thank you for sharing. I know a few people who could benefit from reading this!

    • Thanks. Some have said that we shouldn’t shoehorn good wisdom into an ancient and outdated format, but it’s still an interesting exercise to see what one can come up within those constraints.

      • Greg G.

        What about, “Thou shalt not go swimming for a half-hour after you eat”?

        • OK–eleven commandments, then.

        • Michael Neville

          Thou shalt pick thy friends and thou may pick thy nose but thou shalt not pick thy friend’s nose.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower
        • Greg G.

          Now I will be stuck with this song as a worm up my ear for the rest of the day.

        • MR

          Oh, I can help with that…,

          ♪ Day-O! Day-ay-ay-O! Daylight come an’ me wanna go home…♫

          You’re welcome.

        • Greg G.

          Earworms in stereo.

          Are you getting even with me for the Blazing Saddles/Great Depression timing thing?

        • Otto

          Always look on the bright side of life…

        • Greg G.

          Not this record! Not this RECORD!

          https://youtu.be/Yz2LaJOVAiA?t=120

          For God’s sake, take it off, TAKE IT OFF!!!!

        • Ignorant Amos

          Let me help ya out there chum…

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj1heGiIehU

        • Ignorant Amos
        • Phil

          Ah, not done your research. Shame on you. Only applies to Olympic type swimmers doing intensive training. Nobody has died from swimming after eating but plenty have after drinking alcohol. Amend to “Thou shalt not go swimming after a good night out on the town”. I like the “Thou shalt” gives it an air of authenticity!

        • Grimlock

          Amend to “Thou shalt not go swimming after a good night out on the town”.

          This does most certainly not get my vote. Combining swimming and alcohol can be fun.

        • Yeah? What about the opening scene of Jaws? That woman went swimming while drunk, and she got chopped in half by a shark.

          The cause and effect is obvious–it’s because she was skinny dipping.

        • Grimlock

          The moral of the story? Only go skinny dipping where it’s too cold for sharks to hang out.

        • Phil

          There you go. Easy target for shark, human already peeled. Might have turned out different if clothed. The shark would’ve given up because they don’t have opposable thumbs to undo zippers and buttons.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Nope….that’s purely conjecture….stay skeptical…this was on the news a few days ago…

          An Australian man has died after being attacked by a shark at a popular tourist spot in Queensland.

          He said sharks could be drawn by fishing activity or dirty water, but no theories had “so far been supported by real substantial information”.

          https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-46105285

  • Rudy R

    Treat others as you would want them to treat you and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.

    The “Golden Rule” appears to be a bedrock of morality, but a deeper dive analysis could justify it for the scrapheap. Conservative females may accept their place in a patriarchy culture, but the impact is negative to females overall. Many theists believe they should receive civil punishments for their sins, which have a negative impact on the society as a whole. The old maxim, the ends justifies the means, can open the door for all kinds of negative treatments to others, especially when the “treator” is willing to receive the same negative treatment.

    • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

      The ‘Platinum Rule’, as I heard it, is to understand others and treat them as they would wish to be treated.

      • Len

        This is pretty much the only guideline you heed. If properly applied, all the others mentioned follow naturally.

  • Halbe

    I find #5 (God is not necessary to be a good person or to live a full and meaningful life) odd and out of place. This is a rather defensive declaration, not a positive commandment.

  • Grimlock

    I’d object a bit to the idea of these being “atheistic” in any meaningful sense, except for the sense that they don’t appeal to a deity. They do appear to be rather influenced by online debates about religion, though I’m not quite sure if that’s a good thing or a bad thing.

    (what’s magical about ten?)

    Twelve would obviously be better.

    • Otto
      • A good list. Here’s another, from the Satanic Temple:

        One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.

        The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

        One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

        The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one’s own.

        Beliefs should conform to one’s best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one’s beliefs.

        People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one’s best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.

        Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

        https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/tenets

        • Lark62

          Yes. These are my favorite. They seem to cover all the bases.

  • Kev Green

    Number one is problematic in regards to Christianity. My mind is firmly made up in regards to the Christian God’s existence because any version of the Abrahamic God is incompatible with the world we live in. I’m always willing to consider new evidence, but pretending that there might be new evidence capable of causing me to rethink my position on this version of God is just dishonest.

    So, am I arrogant? Let’s see here, Christians believe that the universe was created for them by an omnipotent deity that is deeply concerned with what they think of Him. They believe that this deity exists because they choose to believe in Him. I merely refuse to take their word for it that this deity exists.

    Christians reject the existence of Zeus, Thor, Ra, Vishnu, etc. They reject Mormonism, Islam, Buddhism, etc. But, somehow I’m arrogant for treating them the same way they treat members of every other faith. They aren’t angry I don’t believe in their God, they’re angry I don’t believe in how special they are.

    Finally, most Christians would object loudly if their neighbor put up a display promoting turnip worship. There is absolutely no chance they would allow the government to support such a display, even if other displays were equally supported. The idea of even one turnip worshiper being elected to public office is ludicrous. Why are Christians so offended by the existence of Atheists? I suspect they, deep down, know and refuse to acknowledge the Divine Designer isn’t real.

    • sandy

      Just to add to your comment. I’ve always felt that there is nothing more arrogant than to have a belief in something for which there is no evidence and display it proudly, as most Christians do.

    • Ignorant Amos

      Number one is problematic in regards to Christianity.

      Yep. No amount of evidence can overturn the logic that demonstrates their god can’t exist.

    • Ignorant Amos

      Finally, most Christians would object loudly if their neighbor put up a display promoting turnip worship. There is absolutely no chance they would allow the government to support such a display, even if other displays were equally supported. The idea of even one turnip worshiper being elected to public office is ludicrous.

      They do, and that’s a fact….take the touring statue of Baphomet in the US as a prime example…

      The Satanic Temple organisation arranged the rally outside the Arkansas State Capitol building to protest a Ten Commandments monument already on the grounds.

      Satanic Arkansas cofounder Ivy Forrester, one of the rally organisers, said: “If you’re going to have one religious monument up then it should be open to others, and if you don’t agree with that then let’s just not have any at all.”

      The display inspired a counter protest by Christian activists, while a leading Republican politician in the state condemned the Satanic icon as “offensive”.

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/satanic-temple-arkansas-state-capitol-little-rock-baphomet-jason-rapert-ten-commandments-a8495576.html

  • Michael Neville

    Why are atheists offended by religious displays? I suspect they, deep down, know and refuse to acknowledge the Divine Designer.

    We’re offended by GOVERNMENT sponsored religious displays. You can cover your church and your home with twenty foot high portraits of the founder of your church, St. Paul, and I won’t complain. But stick the 10 Commandments on the court-house lawn and I’ll let you know of my displeasure over your marking territory because you think you can get away with it. The First Amendment means something to me, even if you pretend it doesn’t exist.

    I don’t “know” your Divine Designer except as a figment of Christians’ collective imaginations. You and I both refuse to acknowledge Allah, Vishnu, Wotan and Quetzacoatl, so why is your favorite god different from those other gods?

    • Joe

      “Why are atheists offended by religious displays? ”

      I mean, we’ve answered this question ad-infinitum yet we would be prepared to explain to this individual, with crayon drawings if required, why we oppose government backed displays for only one religion. But I guess it’s easier for this author to stick to their pre-conceived notions?

  • Geoff Plumridge

    If atheists are correct and there is no God, then stuff commandments, if we are merely animals then do what you can to control and increase your breeding power and control over others. Lie cheat steal and kill anyone that gets in the way of your ambition or your family. Dominate the weak and bow to the strong, always with one eye on a weakness you can exploit for your own benefit and that of your family. Do whatever you can, as often as you can, to increase your wealth and standing, just as long as you don’t get caught. No point in half arsed platitudes, everyone is going to the same place and there is no long term consequences to your actions. Find whatever pleasure wherever you can, because one day you will die. Your success on the planet will only be judged by the size and strength of your offspring.

    • sandy

      That’s a tired old argument Geoff. If you need the fear of a God to make you a good person then you’re just a sad POS. Ever hear of humanism?

      • Geoff Plumridge

        Yes. Religion is what separates us from the animals, the very thing that makes us human.

        • Grimlock

          So, I guess you’re saying that atheists ain’t human? Way to go working on that out-group mentality.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Denying a huge part of their humanity. Part of the self-hate that tends to characterise the members of that particular cult.

        • Grimlock

          Oh, so we’re a cult now. Gee, how come nobody told me? I hate it when I join a cult and nobody tells me.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Self awareness is lacking, but self hate isn’t. Again another characteristic of members of this particular cult.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          The IMAX people want to talk with you about using their projection trade secrets without a license…

        • all those supernatural beliefs were the tip-off.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Nope.

          YOUR KIND don’t get to claim some kind of ‘divine’ mind-reading skills.

          EVIDENCE or STFU & GTFO.

        • You can’t put a positive spin on this difference? You can’t say science is what separates us?

        • Greg G.

          I see. Animals don’t waste their time on religion. Most people believe in some type of deity but they are contradictory. That means most people are wrong about the gods. When we examine each one, it breaks down into smaller and smaller sects, so most of the people in any one religion is definitely wrong. So, at most, there is one correct sect, and everybody else is wrong. You would probably disagree with that sect, so you would be wrong, too.

    • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

      Nope.

      Humans aren’t wolves or lions, we’re *social* animals.

      If we did as you said, in less than a generation there’d be no trace of humanity left besides some gnawed and bleaching bones.

      YOUR KIND don’t like it, but the answer is easy: The humans who *cooperated* survived, and were the ancestors of us all. Those who weren’t didn’t survive long enough to breed, so cooperation was reinforced. That’s evolution, and it works, fundyfool.

      • Geoff Plumridge

        Atheists tried that in the 20th century and millions died. Only difference was there were people with faith around to stop them.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Specify, then.

          If you’re talking Hitler, he was a practicing Catholic right to the point he apparently took cyanide.

          Stalin trained as a priest.

          Mao got a religious education, too.

          You’re trying to tar atheism with the acts of people who merely opposed religion as a check on their power. Not ONE of them did ANYTHING in the ‘name’ of atheism.

          So try again.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          How can anyone do anything in the name of atheism? It is like holding up a blank piece of office paper as a battle standard.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Uh, you DO realize you just made my point for me, right?

          Or did you *unwittingly* score that own goal there?

        • Since we agree that atheism is merely one answer (No) to one question (Do you have a god belief?), what is your complaint? Why did you allude before to atheists killing millions when you know there’s no cause and effect?

        • epeeist

          Atheists tried that in the 20th century and millions died.

          Theists tried it in the 17th century during the 30 years war, estimates for that are that up to a third of the European population died as a result of the conflict.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Let’s take a Christian favorite…Hitler…and grant the idiocy that he was atheist for the sake of argument, since when did a nation of Christians put an atheist with Hitlers views into a position of power? The assertion is ludicrous in the extreme.

          Btw. Eugenics was not a German invented concept and Hitlers manifesto on how to deal with what he seen as the Jewish problem, was mirrored on the writings of Christian Reformationist Martin Luther.

          The eugenics movement began in the U.S. in the late 19th century. However, unlike in Britain, eugenicists in the U.S. focused on efforts to stop the transmission of negative or “undesirable” traits from generation to generation. In response to these ideas, some US leaders, private citizens, and corporations started funding eugenical studies. This lead to the 1911 establishment of The Eugenics Records Office (ERO) in Cold Spring Harbor, New York. The ERO spent time tracking family histories and concluded that people deemed to be unfit more often came from families that were poor, low in social standing, immigrant, and/or minority. Further, ERO researchers “demonstrated” that the undesirable traits in these families, such as pauperism, were due to genetics, and not lack of resources.

          http://knowgenetics.org/history-of-eugenics/

        • epeeist

          Only difference was there were people with faith around to stop them.

          If you mean the US, they only came into WWII when they were attacked by the Japanese. Up to that point one of the main countries opposing Germany was the Soviet Union.

        • Ignorant Amos

          If you mean the US,…

          Weren’t they mostly Christians?

          Didn’t they drop something called “The Bomb”…twice?

          It’s probably just a numbers game, it usually is with the Christers.

        • And the Soviet Union’s suffering in the war was incredible. Stalin (rightly) asked the rest of the Allies when they were going to open a Western front to take the pressure off them.

        • You’re implying a cause and effect. You need to actually show it, otherwise, it’s just slander.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Good point.

          I bought into Geoffie’s assumption out of habit.

        • Greg G.

          “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
          –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

          We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession. It combats the Jewish-materialist spirit within and without us, and is convinced that our nation can achieve permanent health from within only on the principle: the common interest before self-interest.
          We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls…. We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity… in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.
          –Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf

          And to that charge I can answer: In the first place it is Christians and not international atheaists who now stand at the head of Germany.

          We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

          National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it stands on the ground of a real Christianity. The Church’s interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement.
          –Hitler

          Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith.
          –Adolf Hitler

    • And yet atheists don’t act that way. Since your guess at how they should act is wrong, perhaps you should consider that they might understand their situation better than you do. Maybe a little humility would be a good place to start.

      • Geoff Plumridge

        Western Atheists are just Christians without the label. Diet Coke.

        • Grimlock

          Neh.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Descriptive.

        • Grimlock

          You don’t provide an argument, so why bother phrasing a rebuttal?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Neh.

        • Ignorant Amos

          A wonder what non-western atheists are in that case?

          What a dopey Dime Bar.

        • Grimlock

          Imaginary? Communists? Both?

        • Uh huh. Much clearer, thanks.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Assertion.

          How about some EVIDENCE?

          Not so much to ask, now is it?

      • epeeist

        Bob, I am afraid that I have to make a complaint. The quality of chew toys that are now coming to the site is absolutely appalling. You need to improve this or I will have to complain to the management tell somebody about it.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          How piss weak. You are like a disgruntled customer trying to get a staff member sacked by writing to the CEO. How sad.

        • epeeist

          You are like a disgruntled customer trying to get a staff member sacked by writing to the CEO.

          Ah Christians, no sense of humour. As it is your analogy fails in that you are not an employee.

          A better analogy would be someone phoning a repair company up because they had a burst pipe and the company sends out someone who knows nothing about plumbing but offers to pray over the pipe to fix it.

          How sad.

          Your’e a follower of the mango Mussolini? That explains a lot.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Wow could you get anymore cliched? No bother, I have the same contempt in remittance. Atheism: The Philosophical equivalent of the flat earth theory.

        • epeeist

          Wow could you get anymore cliched?

          In your world that counts as a rebuttal?

          Atheism: The Philosophical equivalent of the flat earth theory.

          Actually I see it as being more in line with Quine’s ideas outlined in his paper On What There Is.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Contempt?

          More like disappointment.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Nope.

          Your sense of humor is broken, too.

          You’re just a poor-quality representative of your harmful superstitious meme, and it’s VERY apparent.

        • Unlike you who just whines and provokes.

          Is this all you do? Or do you actually have thoughtful arguments for Christianity?

        • Lark62

          Whoosh. Right over your head.

          For the record, Epeeist was complaining that you, being far more stupid and boring than the average troll we get here, are failing to sufficiently entertain us.

          The rest of us, including Bob, agree that we could use more entertaining chew toys.

          We are laughing at you, not with you.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower
        • The lettuce in the buffet is looking a little brown? There’s no sneeze shield? People are using their fingers instead of tongs? I hear you.

          Tell you what–I’ll pray about it.

        • Greg G.

          I love sneeze guards on salad bars. It’s better using one of those than carrying around a handkerchief.

    • Joe

      How does a god change this scenario, in your opinion?

    • I Came To Bring The Paine

      And yet all of that is and has always been a reality in a world supposedly created and supervised by God. Are you admitting that a world with God and a world without God look exactly the same?

      • Geoff Plumridge

        No supervision since we walked away from God in the beginning. If there is any Supervisor present then it the serpent, not the Father.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          No supervision since we walked away from God in the beginning.

          Humans did not exist “in the beginning”.

          If there is any Supervisor present then it the serpent, not the Father.

          You mean the craftiest of all God’s creatures? (Genesis 3:1)

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Homo Sapien as a species had a beginning, a genesis. And we walked away from what God gave us, built cities, domesticated animals. Maybe he didn’t want us to do that, maybe he wanted us to live like the indigenous Australians or Amazonian Indians did before they were “civilised”. The Devil really is a city boy at heart.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          And we walked away from what
          God gave us, built cities, domesticated animals.

          where did you get that from? Not from the Bible, it seems. Because you said:

          No supervision since we walked away from God in the beginning.

          If true, that would make the Bible false.

          Maybehe didn’t want us to do that, maybe he wanted us to live like the indigenous Australians or Amazonian Indians did before they were “civilised”.

          Maybe you don’t know what you’re talking about and making stuff up. Maybe your God isn’t real.

          The Devil really is a city boy at heart.

          Glad you two are tight with each other.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          And maybe God is real and your lack of belief is exactly what the serpent wants you to think, not for your benefit, but his.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          But then again, God did make the serpent the craftiest animal.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Yep, and he gave Lucifer an awful amount of native strength. Who knows what his plan was.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          His plan seems to make me not believe any of the hilarious bullshit you’re saying. I think it’s working.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          And that is exactly what he wants you to think. Saying that, glad that I am entertaining you.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          Your God wants me to believe you’re full of shit?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          The devil sure does.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          You mean the city boy that you hang out with?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Yep, the very same. He loves the internet.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          He also seems to love trolling on Disqus under the username @geoff_plumridge:disqus.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Nope that is just me. He doesn’t like people reminding others that there is a God, and that we should love one another as he loves us. Doesn’t suit his business model.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          Nope that is just me.

          So you’re trolling all by yourself, then? Good to know.

          He doesn’t like people reminding others that there is a God, and that we
          should love one another as he loves us. Doesn’t suit his business
          model.

          You two don’t seem to be alike. I wonder how you guys became friends? Opposites attract, I guess? &#128518

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Glad that you are tentatively acknowledging his existence maybe there is hope for you yet.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          If you’re friends with the city boy devil, then you’re the one who needs hope. &#128518

        • McGill
        • Geoff Plumridge

          Dunno about friends, I think of the devil as more Jehovah’s disgruntled ex-employee.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          Not according to Job. Are you sure you’re the one whose knowledge of the Bible is lacking?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          What, do you think that the devil tested Job because God asked him to? Because they were mates? Wow.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          What, do you think that the devil tested Job because God asked him to? Because they were mates? Wow.

          What, you don’t think that God tested Job because the devil asked him to? Wow.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Well I dunno what you are trying to say then. Job to me is the classic example of Satan expressing his hatred of humanity which emanates from his dismissal from heaven. He has had it in for all of us from the beginning.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Show me the word ‘hate’ anywhere in Job as an emotion that ‘satan’ is expressing.

          You’re just faffing on in a way that makes you feel good, not that has any support, even in the book.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          You must have read a different version of Job then I have.

        • Greg G.

          Satan doesn’t do anything without God’s permission.

        • MR

          Salvation only makes sense if God and Satan have equal footing which allows God to save us from something. It kind of falls flat when God is the instigator and has total control.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Read the book. There’s a wager at the beginning about Job’s ‘faith’…so your ‘god’ was okay with fucking up a man’s whole life to demonstrate a point.

          That’s sociopathic in itself.

        • It’s just one chapter. You can read Job 1? Or is evidence irrelevant to you?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          You haven’t read the book of Job, have you?

          (see also the movie Trading Places)

        • Someone needs to read Job 1. Satan works for God.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Christianity is all about hope. It is you poor buggers that decide to deny your basic humanity and eschew all hope.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          The Bible and thus Christianity is false according to you:

          No supervision since we walked away from God in the beginning.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Your knowledge of the bible is clearly lacking. But that is ok, to you it is just irrelevant allegorical folk tales so no dramas there.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          Your knowledge of the bible is clearly lacking.

          How so?

          But that is ok, to you it is just irrelevant allegorical folk tales

          Right.

          so no dramas there.

          Wrong. There are plenty of dramas in the Bible.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Of course there is. It is the story of mankind constantly rebelling against their creator, then when openly confronted with proof of the divine nailing that proof to a cross. Drama indeed.

        • I Came To Bring The Paine

          Irrelevant allegorical folk tales indeed.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Nope.

          You don’t get that until you’ve DEMONSTRATED this ‘god’ in a fashion that’s specific and incontrovertible.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Yeah…about that…you’d have thought that the Chosen Ones would’ve learned about YahwehJesus’s wrath well before the need to nail himself to a cross by way of demonstration. A mean, if a world wide flood doesn’t impress, I can’t see how some dickhead getting himself pinned to a couple of planks for pissing off human authorities is going to work, but then it didn’t much, did it?

        • Lark62

          A semi mythological man god had a lousy weekend.

          Big whoopie.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Uh, nope.

          YOU made that claim about your ‘god’.

          Were you deluded or lying?

        • Then how lucky for us that you and your Bible knowledge are here.

          There are over a thousand posts here. Help us out by showing where they fail. Or are you only here to insult?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Xtianity is all about a FALSE hope.

          When it can’t be demonstrated, it’s a lie.

        • Ignorant Amos

          And everyone that isn’t a Christian doesn’t believe this twaddle ya pump out. Why are they all wrong and you are not? What method do you use to verify you are the one on the correct page and everyone else is doomed to oblivion for all eternity?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Your irony meter needs calibration.

          Also your sarcasm detector.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          reminding others that there is a God

          ^^^^^Evidence required.

          I can see plenty of people who *believe* this ‘god’ exists, but zero evidence of the ‘god’ as anything other than a superstitious hateful meme.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          The same city boy who, per your story, told this ‘adam’ & ‘eve’ the truth about the fruit tree in ‘the garden’, showing your ‘god’ to be a craven liar at the same time?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Well then, demonstrate this ‘devil’ exists.

          (and none of the pap about this ‘devils’ greatest trick being to convince us it doesn’t exist….because your ‘god’ did that, and earlier.)

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Geoffie-poo, you’re not a mindreader, and paradox is not a useful tool for understanding the world.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I call nonsense and monkeyshines.

          OR I call every *other* fiction book in the world objectively truth-telling.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          And maybe God is real

          Well, if this ‘god’ of yours is real, just show us the specific *to* your ‘god’, incontrovertible evidence…like the evidence for gravity.

          It *should* be easy, really….

        • Pofarmer

          The Stupid is certainly real.

        • Pofarmer
        • Ignorant Amos

          Homo Sapien as a species had a beginning, a genesis.

          Nope…they really didn’t…and you thinking they did just goes to demonstrate you know nothing about the subject.

          The process was a gradual development and it involved more than two individuals.

          There was no two non homo sapien parents that gave birth to a homo sapien offspring. Why don’t you set down the book of myths, legends, lies and nonsense. Pick up a book a different book and learn something ffs.

        • Grimlock

          Hey, that doesn’t sound all that bad!

        • The serpent was the hero in the Garden of Eden story. God was the liar.

          Whoops.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Something these guys just don’t get.

          I asked Brother TC to show me where the serpent lied anywhere in the book…I even linked to the relevant chapter of the book for his convenience, aftyer he said it was to be read in context and to read the verse prior…all I got was crickets, that was just prior to his blocking me, citing rudeness, I’m guessing, as his reason. Too easy to see through that ploy.

          The best the Christians can come up with is that the serpent is described as crafty. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it lied. And indeed, nowhere in it’s actions did it. What it actually means is that the misogynistic fuckwits that wrote the bullshit considered women as more fickle and easier bowled over by the character of the serpent, it’s guileful ways as a plot device. So women are largely to blame for why humans indulge in hedonism. Considered to be immoral for the plebs…not so much for the top brass…as lso demonstrated in the not-so-good-book.

          The serpent was only pointing out that Yahweh was holding back, and lying about the consequences of eating the fruit killing them. A scare tactic. I’ve done the same thing maself.

        • I see the serpent/apple story as just an etiological story to explain where morality comes from. How it made God look was a secondary condition.

          Aside: one wonders what the serpent looked like initially, if he crawled on the ground after he was punished. I’ve heard wings mentioned, presumably citing some other mythology where the story may have come from, but I don’t remember specifics.

          And clearly the serpent = Satan connection was a much, much later interpretation.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Which is in turn just your personal interpretation

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Uh, nope.

          If ‘satan=serpent’ was the original interpretation, it would be black-letter text, not just implied.

        • Yeah, based on what the story in Genesis actually says. You disagree? Then make an actual argument.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Look at the world since women got the vote..

        • Ignorant Amos

          Why? Which women? Where? When?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights act, ADA, PPACA, Social Security, workplace safety rules, the EPA…I could go on.

          Why are you saying that as if women voting was a *bad* thing?

        • What am I supposed to be looking at? Antibiotics? Smallpox no longer a killer? Computers?

          You’ve lost me.

    • Grimlock

      Well, gosh, I sure hope you never stop being religious.

      You do realize that there’s not a 100 % correlation between atheism and what you describe (social darwinism, near as I can tell), right? In fact, it’s probably way closer to 0 %.

      • Geoff Plumridge

        Nope. Any deviation from the behaviour mentioned above would quite obviously come from the insidious influence of theism, more specifically Western Christianity. Denial is after all just a river in Egypt.

        • Grimlock

          Oh. Your subtle and explicitly phrased arguments have convinced me. Horray, I am liberated! Freed from the shackles of, uh, shackles!

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Pfft. I don’t really care either way. I just have a clinical fascination for you miserable people, mainly motivated by pity, but also a sense of curiosity, like when you can’t help sniffing a nasty smell.

        • Grimlock

          Oh, so you don’t care about the people you pity. How very Christian of you.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Why should I? You deny the very existence of the God that has inspired me to pity you. Atheists deny the core of their humanity so my pity is like one I would give to a dog with a bad cold.

        • Grimlock

          Wow, is your worldview cold and barren or what?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Yes. We live in the Devils time and the end really is nigh. Repent while you still have the breath to.

        • Grimlock

          I think I’ll pass.

          Let’s go back to talking about your depressing worldview, shall we?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Just one honest look at the world would shake anyone to their core. Evil is everywhere. Still, we can always just retreat into a techno bubble and pretend everything is fine.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          That’s the difference between us and YOUR KIND.

          WE are dedicated to improving the world, leaving it better for future generations.

          In fact, you live with some of our successes, very likely:
          – No smallpox
          – Almost no polio
          – the Internet
          – Democratic society
          – much more freedom to be who one wants to be, without being burned at the stake (you’re the *wrong* religion to SOMEbody, and so would be kindling…)

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Every “success” in the Western World you mark off has only come about due to the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. Doubtless you owe your very corporal existence to the preservation of Christianity in the West.

        • epeeist

          Every “success” in the Western World you mark off has only come about
          due to the adoption of Christianity as the official religion of the
          Roman Empire.

          Just two things. Firstly, the “successes” of the Western World derive as much as anything from the saving and development of material from the Greeks within Islamic society. The West only started to develop when this material became available through translations around the 12th century (can you say “Renaissance”?).

          Secondly, modern science only started to develop during the time of the Enlightenment when the power of the various churches was weak (which is why many of the Founding Fathers of the US could be deists rather than Christians).

        • Ignorant Amos
        • Geoff Plumridge

          Someone had to save them. Cue in centuries of celibate Monks with pens.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          As I mentioned above, such preservation wouldn’t have been necessary if xtianity hadn’t destroyed all such knowledge outside of monasteries.

        • epeeist

          Someone had to save them.

          Well yes, and it wasn’t Christians.

          Cue in centuries of celibate Monks with pens.

          You neglect the translations that were done by Spanish Jews and Mozarabs. Oh, and when it comes to then Enlightenment I don’t think many celibate monks were involved given that Gutenberg introduced the printing press into Western civilisation in the middle of the 15th century…

        • Ignorant Amos

          Idiot.

          At a time when western Christian society could be accurately characterized as superstitious, brutal, dogmatic and repressive, the Arab world during the Christian Crusades period was reaching a zenith of learning and enlightenment. Once such example of this is the watershed work called the Fihrist (meaning “the catalogue”), a compendium of all of the significant written works on religion, the humanities and science available at the end of the first millennium A.D. The Fihrist, and the scholarship it represents, is one of the shining positives that emerged from a Crusades history that was otherwise brutal and bloody.

          https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/post-biblical-period/an-unexpected-consequence-of-the-christian-crusades/

        • Geoff Plumridge

          The Crusades were caused by Islam and the sacking of the church of the holy sepulchre in 1009. Ergo they were caused by the Islamic intolerance of Christianity, not the other way around.

        • Ignorant Amos

          The Crusades were caused by Islam and the sacking of the church of the holy sepulchre in 1009.

          Well, first of all, your grasp of history is seriously fucked up if you think that’s what caused the crusades. But it is irrelevant to the point of the article and it’s relevance to your comment. So pah!

          Ergo they were caused by the Islamic intolerance of Christianity, not the other way around.

          That is not what the is about, nor is it relevant to the rebuttal of your ignorant rant. The story is a lot more complicated than “we everything to the Christians, cause they always win” fuckwittery.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “Ergo they were caused by the Islamic intolerance of Christianity, not the other way around.”

          The way fundies all over the US and Europe try to block mosques, and deface synagogues?

          Start with the beam in your own eye.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          I’m thankfully not from the US or from Europe. Both toilets.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I’ll bet there are those in your society who attempt to suppress competing religions, though.

        • There was more than one Crusade, Chester.

        • Ignorant Amos

          And none of them started in 1009 or anywhere near it. Or were any of them because the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was sacked by the mad Caliph. Although the Pope at the time, Pope Sergius IV is alleged to have raised a Papal Bull calling for a crusade at the time. Nothing came of that. So either it never happened, the Pope didn’t have the clout at that time, or the Christian folk in Europe just really didn’t give a fuck. It is supposed that it was a made up fiction invented over 80 years later in order to rally round the troops for Urban’s campaign.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Try again.

          *Most* of the success is a result of *pagan* *Greek* scientists whose work was suppressed by the Roman empire (the moreso after xtianity was adopted as the state religion).

          The *rediscovery* of that knowledge was a result of the Reformation weakening the grip of xtianity on Europe, and the Enlightenment that came from the rediscovery of the scientific knowledge and modes of thought of the pagan Greeks.

          You can’t claim xtianity caused it to happen in a world where xtians burned heretics and unbelievers at the stake…pretending to be an xtian was a survival mechanism.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          And who preserved that knowledge? The patriarch of Constantinople. Next?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Why did it need preserving?

          Because the church wouldn’t allow it outside the monastery walls.

          You don’t get credit for not burning down your own house if you’re an arsonist burning down the rest of the neighborhood.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          You do if you spend centuries preserving ancient knowledge that has directly contributed to advances in every field and created the modern world. No-one else was doing it.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Xtianity was suppressing progress outside the monasteries.

          If nothing else, it would be hoarding, but I still call it being an arsonist and not burning down one’s own house.

        • Lark62

          Yeah sure. They scraped irreplaceable knowledge off of parchments so they could record insipid prayers. It is only with modern technology that we can decipher what the monks tried to destroy.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Good point.

          I’d forgotten that.

        • Ignorant Amos
        • Pofarmer

          Holy fuckin stupid.

        • Greg G.

          Humans spent a long time trying to figure out where their gods fit in and trying to explain the working of the world in terms of gods. But when they starting leaving gods out of their equations at the end of the 17th century, science and technology really took off.

          We entered the post-Christian world at that point.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Take an honest look at the world at anytime. “Evil”, by which I take you to mean badness, was everywhere.

          And in The Better Angels of Our Nature, Steven Pinker shows, with good argument, that at no other time in human history has there been less “evil” and gives reasons why.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature

          So you are talking a loada ballix.

          …techno bubble…

          Oh the irony of it all.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Wiki is always good for a chuckle.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Ah right, you didn’t go to the link…or you are to dumb to have figured out that it is a page containing a synopsis of the book that points out you are talking a loada nonsense, either you are being stupid.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          I love wiki I edit it all the time. Maybe you have used or referenced my ballix.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          You didn’t edit Stephen Pinker’s book….which is the point being made.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Probably not the subject matter I would be interested in to be honest.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I’d be interested in seeing your attempt at a fisk of it…but I doubt you have the talent. You DEFINITELY don’t have evidence to refute it.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Another non sequitur.

          I doubt I’ve referenced your ballix, because I know how to reference Wikipedia. That you edit it all the time, and you demonstrate you are inept, doesn’t mean everything on Wikipedia is ineptly cited.

          But if it is the source I’m using that is giving you a tingly dick, I can provide another…or you could just borrow the book…I hear lending libraries are still about.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Really? You don’t sound like the bookish type.

        • When Christianity was in charge, we had the Dark Ages. It’s science that’s changed society for the better.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Actually Rome was officially Christian for centuries before the Dark ages (brought about by pagan invasions) and arguably there were no “Dark Ages” in The Byzantine Empire. No Christianity, no enlightenment.

        • Yes, I agree–when Christianity was in charge, nothing extraordinary happened. It looks like ordinary human progress and retreat. God’s impact was indistinguishable from chance, as if God didn’t even exist.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Wow that really is an ignorant comment.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Geoffie-poo to honesty translator “I got nothin’, but I HAVE to pop back!”

        • Geoff Plumridge

          No, that was me avoiding any further discussion with a bigoted idiot.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          So, per YOUR KIND, telling the truth about the lack of scientific progress THAT WAS DUE TO XTIANITY STIFLING INNOVATION is ‘bigoted’ & ‘idiotic’?

          Try again.

        • Very eloquent. Thanks. Your position is much clearer now.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Actually Rome was officially Christian for centuries before the Dark ages

          Nah…380 to 476 isn’t centuries.

          (brought about by pagan invasions)

          Nah…that only get’s you part of the way in excusing Christianities part in the Dark Ages. Didn’t those Pagan barbarians convert to Christianity?

          ..and arguably there were no “Dark Ages” in The Byzantine Empire.

          Arguably? And arguably that could be because of it’s proximity to the Middle East and what the Islamic world was doing with knowledge.

          No Christianity, no enlightenment.

          Well, yes…it has to be dark, before it can be light…that’s the point being made, but thanks for conceding that point.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          If you feel that so strongly, why not cut the line and go straight to ‘heaven’?

          Oh, yeah, they changed the rules in early xtianity when slaves and the wretched poor started committing suicide to go to ‘heaven’ where they’d no longer be slaves…

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Nope, more to do with the fact that killing yourself is the ultimate selfish act. And being Christian isn’t just a plan to get to heaven. But I understand that an atheist would think along those lines. You poor little buggers.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “killing yourself is the ultimate selfish act”

          Uh, you DO realize that you just espoused an *Enlightenment* value, which your ‘bible’ doesn’t say boo about…except for glorifying people who are martyrs??

          Of course not…that would be an Inconvenient Truth…

          🙂

        • Geoff Plumridge

          More of a tenant of my faith actually. Not everything is in the bible, that is more of a myopic Protestant view.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Guess what?

          IF you bothered to read the history of xtianity, you’d see it only became a teneT (no ‘an’ there, tovarisch) after early poor xtians decided to take the express to ‘heaven’ as described by the hucksters selling the meme.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          What is a ‘huckster’? Is that even English?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower
        • Geoff Plumridge

          Clearly a North American colloquialism. I’ve never heard the word before.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Clearly an example of the paucity of both your intellectual curiosity and your research skills.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Nope…You are giving yourself away….

          https://www.etymonline.com/word/huckster

          I’m British and it is a well known term.

          There’s even a bar and restaurant called The Huckster in London’s, Paddington railway station.

        • Greg G.

          Nope, more to do with the fact that killing yourself is the ultimate selfish act.

          What about suicide by cop? What about suicide by Roman soldier?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Nope, more to do with the fact that killing yourself is the ultimate selfish act.

          Nah…that’s nonsense. Selfish for who? And who says?

        • Apocalypticism is still in vogue? “The end will come in your generation” still has staying power, 2000 years later?

          You might want to double-check your calculations.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Time is relative.

        • Translation: “Duuuuuh … I got nuthin’.”

          Jesus predicted the End in the lifetime of some of his followers. He was wrong. Deal with it.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Last I looked he still had a few followers

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “Last I looked he still had a few followers”

          Who were still alive at the same time as the Jeez?

          Please, introduce us!

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Bah. Atheist Bible experts. I’m not going to bother.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Translation:

          “Dammit, per the black-letter text of the ‘bible’, they’re right!

          (maybe a pathetic attempt at derision will derail the discussion for Geoffie-poo?….)”

        • Geoff Plumridge

          No, I’m not going to argue the finer points of the good book with an atheist. How pointless.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Nothing has stopped you from arguing *before*.

          Describe, book/chapter/verse, why the assertion is *wrong*, or else it stands on the black-letter text.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Mate stand it up your cloaca if that makes you feel better. I won’t bandy words with an avowed atheist about the good book. Take whatever the hell you want from it.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “Brave, brave Sir Geoffie, bravely ran away…”
          “I DID *NOT*!!!”

          😉

        • Ignorant Amos

          stand it up your cloaca

          Now there really is something I’d never heard before. And after a Google search, it appears to be incoherent.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Robin Williams *loved* that word 🙂

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=828UlOk4vHM

        • Smart. You’d get your ass handed to you around here.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Pwnd!

        • Someone’s shooting blanks.

        • Phil

          I’m following Bob!

        • Mohammed has followers. Joseph Smith has followers. Hell, L. Ron Hubbard has followers.

          Now that you’ve gotten your little one-liner out, are you going to move on to actually engage with the point? Or am I to simply draw the obvious conclusion?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          What point? That you are an atheist who is also an expert in bible interpretation?

        • Can’t scroll up 15 lines? Let me copy it for you: Jesus predicted the End in the lifetime of some of his followers. He was wrong. Deal with it.

        • Greg G.

          The point is that he still has followers who are still waiting for him to come, 2000 years later.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Funny, you’re using Enlightenment ideas of time relativity and relative truth to buttress your inflexible religious claim.

          Really rather amusing.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Why? Western Christian thought is the cradle of the Enlightenment.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          *Greek* *pagan* thought is the cradle of the Enlightenment.

          The rediscovery only happened after xtianity was too weak to continue to suppress it.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          That isn’t history. That is bigotry. They do rhyme though.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          It’s truth.

          If you consider historical truth as ‘bigotry’, you’ve got bigger emotional issues.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          If you fail to give Christianity any credit for the development of modern liberal western democracy then you are a bigot.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Not a bit.

          If you look at the progress of liberal western democracy, the great mass of xtianity opposed it every step of the way.

          A few progressives (who had to be religious or be burned at the stake or disregarded) who DID support the advance were generally mocked, derided, and spurned.

          Then, within a few generations of LOSING, the xtian establishment lied and claimed to be in the forefront of progress.

          See the Civil Rights struggle and the Marriage Equality struggle for details.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Nope. History isn’t a salad bar. Bigotry does tend to put the blinkers on, saying that I never met an atheist (generally paired with socialist) that had any real knowledge or interest in history. Historical fact seemed to disturb the narrative.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          So, you can make an assertion.

          That don’t impress me much (see the song for more details)

          History demonstrates what I said, clearly to the point of being blatant.

          I think the whole ‘blinkers’ thing is more projection.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Funny thing about arrogance and ignorance. They tend to work together.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          That’s a deepity AND a non sequitur all in one!

          ETA: and yet *another* own goal…

          https://media.makeameme.org/created/im-not-even-oara8c.jpg

        • If you think that the pillars of Western government–separation of church and state, religious freedom, democracy, and so on–came from the Bible, then you are misinformed.

        • Greg G.

          That’ what Paul was saying nearly 2,000 years ago. When he wrote about the Lord coming, he always used the first person plural for those living when that happened and the third person plural for the dead. But the Jews in Judea and Galilee were thinking the same way, which led them to revolt against the Romans, as they thought their Messiah was coming to kick the Romans out of Judea. To the very end of the siege of Jerusalem, their leaders were reminding the fighters who were left that the Messiah would be there to save the day and that they shouldn’t give up.

          But there was a world leader who came from there, just like the prophecies said, except he wasn’t born there. Vespasian led the fight against the Jews but was appointed Caesar and ruled the Roman Empire for a decade.

        • Kevin K

          I wonder what the people who committed suicide at Masada thought about the lack of appearance of their Messiah?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          I think they were just keen to not let themselves get taken by vengeful Romans.

        • Greg G.

          There’s a verse in Daniel about the dead being raised. Paul seems to have used it for his apocalypse message and Josephus seemes to have been thinking of it when he described the beliefs of the Pharisees. Perhaps that was Plan B.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Yes. Christianity is an apocalyptic religion. And?

        • And Apocalypticism teaches that the End will be coming within the generation of the hearers of the message.

          The imminent end didn’t happen. Your religion fails.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          In your opinion. I still see much by the way of success.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          You can only claim success by moving the goalposts.

          Your ‘apocalypse’ has failed for about 2 millennia or so.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Who in their right mind would want the apocalypse to succeed? I’m happy he hasn’t come down to judge the living and the dead yet but looking around the signs ain’t good.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Different point.

          Your story has your Jeez promising an apocalypse about 2000 years ago.

          It didn’t happen.

          Was the supposed ‘Jeez’ mistaken, or a liar?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          So you admit that he is a real historical figure then? Progress.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Re-read, knucklehead.

          “your story” and ‘supposed’ are sufficient to demonstrate my disbelief in the claims make by your ‘bible’….it’s just that YOUR KIND are willing to chuck it out the window whenever it’s inconVEEEENient. That’s soooooo rich…

          So, again:
          – Mistaken?
          – Liar?

          it’s ONE of those two, per the story as written.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          What is a ‘knucklehead’? More inferior regional colloquialism?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower
        • Geoff Plumridge

          Ok. Kind of crude and unimaginative. Good exemplar of the country of origin.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Still, one we British have adopted and use with regularity…so pah!

          Synonymous with our term blockhead, no more crude or unimaginative…but let’s just stick to idiot for you since you are so ignorant and a stickler for traditional words.

          https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/knucklehead

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Whateves.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          You left out ‘deliciously descriptive’ and ‘unerringly accurate’, both in regard to your obstreperous self…

        • You and your childish questions–you’re adorable!

        • In your opinion.

          I’m just reading the quoted words of your Lord and Savior and drawing the obvious conclusion.

          And that’s your response? Just “Nuh uh!!”?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Atheist bible experts. Pfft.

        • Ignorant Amos

          What is an atheist bible expert when you are writing back? Is it similar to just a plain bible expert, or does the preface of atheist means they know more than just a bible expert. They usually know more than Christer bible experts in debates I’ve observed.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          No, but why study the bible if you are actually an atheist? How patently stupid.

        • So we can share with Christians who don’t read their holy book what it actually says.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Oh so you can try and be a fucking smart arse. Preach to practising Christians. What a bunch of arrogant knobs.

        • If you know of any practicing Christians who have something to offer, tell them to drop by.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          It falls under “know how authoritarians will try to predate on us, given even less than half a fucking chance…”

        • Ignorant Amos

          It’s called getting educated, something I feel you know very little about.

          Since I didn’t read it until I ditched god belief and was Ann atheist, I thought it prudent to know the contents for when I engage Christian arseholes who come on Ann atheist forum to “hang around” a group they infer they wouldn’t wanna hang around, to talk about a book the vast majority hasn’t actually read themselves…making them look patently stupid.

          So, your dopey question is patently stupid, you are just too patently stupid to see how patently stupid yer patently stupid question is…ya Dime Bar.

        • And that’s your best response? Pfft.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          I’m not playing the atheist bible expert salad bar game show. If you don’t believe then I have no idea why you would be reading that book. Make paper planes out of it or use it as toilet paper. But please don’t profane it by actually trying to understand it. It is demeaning.

        • I’m not playing the atheist bible expert salad bar game show.

          Obviously. Because you can’t.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Yes. If that makes you feel better.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Why are you attempting to attack the messenger?

          Impugn the *message*, if you can…my money says you can’t, as it’s black-letter text of YOUR KIND’s ‘bible’.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Bwaaaaahahahaha!

          Now there’s that craic I was talking about.

        • Michael Neville

          So your understanding of the Bible amounts to zip point shit. That’s why you’re whining about atheists who understand your propaganda better than you do.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I don’t believe in ANY fiction I’ve read, be it Nero Wolfe mysteries, Star Trek, or David Drake’s military and fantasy s/f.

          Reading YOUR KIND’s book falls under the heading of ‘know those who will attempt to persecute me’.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Experts are experts…beliefs don’t make a difference.

          Else there be no scientists who are xtians.

        • Greg G.

          I still see much by the way of success.

          I still see Jesus’ prayer in John 17:20-23 as the greatest prayer failure ever. Christians were supposed to agree in unity so impressively that the whole world would come to believe. Christians have never had that unity and the whole world didn’t come to believe. The populations of 20 centuries have lived and died since then.

          Why wasn’t Jesus’ prayer answered when he asked? (Matthew 7:7-8; Luke 11:9-10; 1 Kings 3:5)
          Did he not have the faith of a mustard seed? (Matthew 17:20; Mark 4:30–32; Luke 13:18–19)
          Did he not ask in his own name? (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24)
          Did he not pray with faith? (Matthew 21:21)
          Did he not believe it was answered? (Matthew 21:22; Mark 11:24)
          Did he doubt? (James 1:6)
          Did he not ask with the right motives? (James 4:3)
          Was he not righteous? (James 5:16)
          Did he not keep God’s command and please God? (1 John 3:22) God said he was well pleased with him, so that wasn’t it?
          Did he not pray God’s will? (1 John 5:14-15)
          He must have forgotten to confess his sins. (James 5:16)

        • Memetically speaking, it’s been hard to top Abrahamic religions for the past 1800 years.
          Unless you count things like heliocentrism, the germ theory of disease, and McDonald’s.

        • Greg G.

          There’s nothing more sacriligious than a bacon cheeseburger.

          Exodus 23:19b (NIV)Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.

        • Greg G.

          In case you haven’t noticed, there was no apocalypse. The Jews lost the war with the Romans because no Messiah came to help them either.

        • Kevin K
        • Geoff Plumridge

          Yep. AC/DC did extrapolate on this position.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I’m taking bets that Geoffie isn’t a native English speaker.

          On the one hand, well done on learning another language.

          On the other, why waste your time trolling where you’re going to lose, tovarisch??

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Yes I am. My name kind of gives my background away a bit. I don’t speak the corrupted American patois though (thank God).

        • Ignorant Amos

          A see that flew right over yer head too.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Dumbarsed remarks generally do

        • Ignorant Amos

          That’s you trying to dig your way out of your idiocy.

          I think you’ve got a touch of the Dunning-Kruger’s.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu-hp39e5zc

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Must be. Good insight.

        • Greg G.

          Probably the most common manner of speaking English these days is with a Chinese accent.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Nonsense.

          If you didn’t care, you’d go on about your life and leave us to do the same.

          The fact is, YOUR KIND CAN’T *STAND* the fact that we live peacefully, happily, and prosperously *without* your harmful superstitious meme.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          I hope you are all happy. I just feel pity in the main.

        • Using flattery and sucking up to convince us of the rightness of your position? Smart.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          I’m not here to convince or convert. If you don’t realise that you are a sheep then you will never follow the shepherd.

        • I see that. You’re wasting your time. Why are you here then?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Just to provide an alternate viewpoint. Arrogant hypocrites shit me.

        • I don’t see any arrogant hypocrites within the set of people responding to you, but you certainly are getting shat upon.

          And what is your alternate viewpoint? That atheists are poopy heads? Or do you want to bring some actual argument to the adult table for discussion?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Not really, just wanted to use hate filled half arsed generalisations and one eyed sweeping statements about atheism and atheists. In short, to basically respond in kind.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Pity you are so fuckig shite at that too then. There might have been a bit of craic to be had, had you been equal to the task.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Why would I want craic with an atheist? I’ve never met one that wasn’t personally obsessed with trying to point out how stupid I am for following my faith? Why would I want to hang around a bell end like that?

        • Greg G.

          It does not seem like following your faith is the reason you are stupid.

        • Ignorant Amos

          would I want craic with an atheist?

          You really are that stupid a cunt? On behalf of the atheists here, we give zero fucks about what you want, the craic would be had by us lot. Try upping your reading for comprehension there soft boy.

          I’ve never met one that wasn’t personally obsessed with trying to point out how stupid I am for following my faith?

          Didn’t yer mammy tell ya a gazillion times not to exaggerate?

          That’ll be your narcissistic personality kicking in. Or maybe you are off yer meds and it’s the paranoia youse religious cretins suffer from badly? Who’d have thought such a thing? There is no “personal obsession” on my part…you came here ya fuckwit, remember?

          Why would I want to hang around a bell end like that?

          Spoiiiinnnng! There goes a lorry load of irony meters ffs.

          Yet here ya are, wondering why we all think you are as daft as a brush. Your not the sharpest tool in the box, are ya?

        • No, you’re not responding in kind. There are a thousand posts here. You have nothing useful to say in response?

        • Geoff Plumridge

          No I don’t. I’m not here to convert, only to protest.

        • If you mean that you’re just here to waste everyone’s time with snarky comments, then I’ll do everyone a favor and call the bouncer.

          I’ve not seen a single insightful or valuable comment from you. My working hypothesis is that’s because you have none. Show me that I’ve misjudged you or get banned.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Why do you persist in asking for me to try and convert you? I can’t be arsed. Ban me.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Martyrbation in public, right here…

          CLEANUP ON AISLE SEVEN!!!!

        • Done. Twice now.

        • dorcheat

          I am do not see nor read any arrogant hypocrites at Bob’s forums. May I suggest using a good brand of toilet paper or better yet, a bidet for your apparent feces problem.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          The shepherd keeps sheep for 3 reasons:
          – Fleecing them
          – Killing them to eat them
          – F**king them

          I’d just as soon NOT be a sheep, kthxbai…

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Cool story bro.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Oh, you do something DIFFERENT with *your* sheep?

          Do, tell!

          (wanker…)

        • Geoff Plumridge

          You are the bible expert, have a gander at the good shepherd analogy.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Your ‘good shepherd’ so-called ‘analogy’ is useless.

          OF COURSE a herder is going to go after lost stock.

          That doesn’t change WHY a herder keeps stock.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Why did God create humans then? Company?

        • Greg G.

          What good is having a hell if you don’t have people to torture in it for eternity?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I don’t believe in your ‘god’, nor that it created humanity.

          So that’s YOUR question to answer.

          MY question is: why do you even think any ‘gods’ exist?

        • dorcheat

          Why do some christians absolutely insist upon calling some 7.6 billion homo sapiens as domesticated sheep? The last I heard, we classified as homo sapiens sapiens and not domesticated sheep, ovis aries.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Geoffie-poo, look at the incidence of criminals in prison who are atheist vs. the general population. The fact is, FEWER atheists break the laws and go to prison.

          Unless you think we’re just so *smart* that we can break the law without getting caught? That wouldn’t say much for your religion if it makes people stupid and greedy.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          72.3% of all statistics are invented on the spot.

        • epeeist

          72.3% of all statistics are invented on the spot.

          Raw data from an FOI request to the bureau of prisons.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Interesting

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower
        • Lark62

          Citation please

        • Treat others as you would want them to treat you and can reasonably expect them to want to be treated. Think about their perspective.

          Utterly atheistic, yet the cornerstone of any functioning society.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          Utterly atheistic, yet almost word for word Luke 6:31

        • Greg G.

          “Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing.” – Thales (c. 624 BC – c. 546 BC)
          “Do not do to others that which angers you when they do it to you.” – Isocrates (436–338 BC)
          “Treat your inferior as you would wish your superior to treat you.” – Seneca the Younger (c. 4 BC–65 AD)
          “What you do not wish for yourself, do not do to others.” – Confucius (c. 500 BC)
          “That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another.” – Egyptian papyrus (c. 664–323 BC)
          “Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do.” – attributed to the Egyptian goddess Ma’at (c. 2040–1650 BC)

          That last one comes from before the woolly mammoth went extinct. That may be further back in time to the New Testament era than the New Testament era is to us.

        • MR

          a) Can we please have these in chronological order? Sheesh.
          b) Stop that!

        • Christianity has some good ideas, but none of them require a god.

        • Ignorant Amos

          And none of them are original to Christianity or the Jesus yarn.

        • Ignorant Amos

          And plagiarized….aka stolen….aka against the Decalogue…aka a sin….ya two faced fucker.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          Lol! I can’t tell if this is silly or just sad. I’ll get back to you on it.

          In the meantime, would you mind answering a couple questions?

          1) Is a dog capable of recognizing other dogs?

          2) Is a dog capable of valuing those other dogs differently than a cat?

          3) Is a dog capable of kindness?

    • Rudy R

      You’ve just described some very prominent Christians.

      • Geoff Plumridge

        Sure.

    • Greg G.

      If atheists are correct and there is no God, then stuff commandments,

      Paul and James debated this in the epistles. In Galatians 5:14, Paul quotes Leviticus 19:18 and says it fulfill the whole law. James 2:8-11 argues that is a good start but if you don’t follow the whole law and break one part, you break the whole law, and you will be killing and committing adultery in no time. Paul shoots that down in Romans 13:8-10 by pointing out that if you love, you will not kill, commit adultery, steal or covet, so it fulfills the whole law.

      Another argument stems from Galatians 3:6 where Paul says Abraham was justified by faith. James 2:21-23 argues that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac on the altar. But Paul came back with Romans 4:1-3 and Romans 4:10-12 by pointing out that Genesis 15:6, which is quoted in all three epistles, where Abraham was reckoned with righteousness, happened before he was even circumcised, which of course, was long before the altar incident.

      What Paul says works whether there is a god or not. If you love one another, you won’t be breaking the commandments that make sense. Following the law is not what gets you reckoned as righteous.

      You came to this blog forum like a venom-spewing serpent and you get what you gave. Leviticus 19:18 is one of the most quoted verses from the Old Testament that is quoted in the New Testament 3 gospels and 3 epistles. But it doesn’t seem to be one of your favorite verses.

      • Geoff Plumridge

        When in Rome dear boy.

        • Greg G.

          When in Rome dear boy.

          Yes, that’s what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount.

          No, wait. He said, “turn the other cheek”.

        • Geoff Plumridge

          I’m never turning the other cheek to someone who firmly believes that he is just an animal.

        • Greg G.

          Would you loan money to someone who thinks they can ask Jesus to forgive them if they don’t pay you back?

    • Phil

      This ” increase your breeding power and control over others. Lie cheat steal and kill anyone that gets in the way of your ambition or your family. Dominate the weak and bow to the strong, always with one eye on a weakness you can exploit for your own benefit and that of your family. Do whatever you can, as often as you can, to increase your wealth and standing, just as long as you don’t get caught.” perfectly describes evangelicals not atheists.

      • Pofarmer

        Projection?

    • Brian Curtis

      Basically, your argument is that ‘without religion, humans are incapable of coming up with morals and ethics.’ And that’s obviously untrue. So what’s your point?

      If you’re arguing that the absence of a supernatural carrot-and-stick is going to make decent behavior toward others impossible, you’re just admitting that believers are basically sociopaths (as Jillette pointed out above). This shows that nonbelievers are MORE ethical than believers, not less.

    • Phil

      Oh and ” Find whatever pleasure wherever you can, because one day you will die” sounds good to me as long it is consensual, doesn’t break the law and doesn’t affect other people, the planet and small furry animals.
      ” Your success on the planet will only be judged by the size and strength of your offspring.” So why is my success on the planet important? Who is going to be bothered to judge me? What is success anyway?

  • I’m probably going to regret this, but how does one get to the Blaze’s comment sections?
    I want to bask in the crazy.

  • aCultureWarrior

    #11 Borrow off of Judeo-Christian doctrine on a daily basis, of course without giving it’s Author recognition.