20 Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage, Rebutted (Part 6)

20 Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage, Rebutted (Part 6) December 20, 2018

This is the concluding post looking at popular arguments against same-sex marriage. Conservative radio host Frank Turek provides most of them. (Part 1 here.)

17. Christians are obliged to reject same-sex marriage!

Frank gives society some tough love:

If we celebrate harmful behavior we are being unloving. Love requires we tell people the truth, even if it upsets them.

We’ve already established that homosexuality is no more inherently harmful than heterosexuality (see argument 15). Franks “harm” is simply a caution against unsafe sex.

You can imagine that God creates homosexuals and then somehow is disgusted by his own creation, but it’s curious how God’s views seem to line up so conveniently well with your own—so conveniently that I wonder if you’re playing “God” like a sock puppet.

First show that your severe god and his supernatural world exists. Only then will worrying about his desires make sense. Until then, I have no respect for your fantasy.

18. Society will collapse!

Frank considers same-sex marriage in society and doesn’t like the orgy that he expects it to cause within the straight community.

Legally equating [straight and same-sex] relationships breaks the link between marriage and childbearing which leads to higher illegitimacy and a chain of negative effects that fall like dominoes—illegitimacy leads to poverty, crime, and higher welfare costs which lead to bigger government, higher taxes, and a slower economy.

So same-sex marriage lets slip that it’s actually sex that produces babies, not marriage? That’s already obvious to anyone who’s been paying attention. Frank concludes that this insight will cause straight people to have more sex outside of marriage, and that will produce more illegitimate children, but how does that follow?

Ignoring the incoherence of the orgy argument, it sounds like he’s confusing illegitimate children with unwanted children. Illegitimacy can simply be redefined. If illegitimacy causes problems, encourage society to define the problem away. As for unwanted children, I get it—that is indeed a problem. For that, I urge Frank to stop making abortion more difficult (more here).

19. There is no genetic basis for homosexual desire!

Frank gives us the benefit of his years of research into the biology of homosexuality.

After many years of intense research, a genetic component to homosexual desires has not been discovered. Twin studies show that identical twins do not consistently have the same sexual orientation. In fact, genetics probably explains very little about homosexual desires.

That may be right, but so what? We could wrestle with why someone is homosexual (one source: “Scientists hypothesize that a combination of genetic, hormonal, and social factors determine sexual orientation”) but that’s off topic. Frank wrongly implies from this incompletely answered question that no one is homosexual. I wonder if he’ll next tell us that, since he isn’t left handed, left handedness doesn’t exist.

Though conversion therapy (the conversion of someone from a homosexual into a heterosexual) still exists, its reputation is poor today, and it is illegal in some states. If people call themselves ex-gay and are satisfied with that self-image, that’s fine. Sexual identity is a spectrum, and a bisexual person might see themselves as gay one year and ex-gay the next. Just don’t conclude that homosexuality is bad, that it should be suppressed, or that no one is homosexual.

Exodus International was a Christian ministry devoted to conversion therapy. It operated for almost 40 years before disbanding in 2013. Its president admitted that their work had changed almost no one.

20. But same-sex marriage is unnatural. Just think about it. . . yuck!

[Marriages of this type are] alliances so unnatural that God and nature seem to forbid them.

Hold on. No, that’s my bad. This is actually from an 1878 Virginia Supreme Court decision, and the marriages that so bothered the judges in this case were mixed-race marriages.

But this is basically identical to what modern opponents to same-sex marriage say. Here is the 2003 view of Anglican archbishop of Nigeria Peter Akinola:

I cannot think of how a man in his right senses would be having sexual relations with another man. It is so unnatural, so unscriptural.

First off, homosexuality is natural. It has been documented in 1500 species of animals, including all great apes (of which humans are a part).

Second, if it freaks you out to think about two guys doing it, then don’t think about it. There are straight couples that do the same thing, and quite possibly in larger numbers—does that bother you?

You think gay sex is yucky? What’s yucky is the Christian as imaginary voyeur, peeking through the window into someone’s bedroom to criticize what they’re doing.

Third, let’s not put that much stock in whether something is supported by scripture or not. Slavery, polygamy, and genocide have clear support in scripture. Christians happily condemn those practices today, so the Bible obviously no longer binds us.

Fourth, the Bible says nothing about same-sex marriage. Even the widely cited verses arguing that homosexuality is wrong make a weak case.

Fifth, marriage was invented by humans. It’s changed in important ways in my own lifetime (see argument #3), and the legality of same-sex marriage is just one more change.

Finally, consider IVF, abortions, surrogate mothers, and modern technology that saves the lives of premature infants. Add to that erectile dysfunction pills, birth control pills, morning-after pills, and testosterone pills and tell me that there aren’t plenty of unnatural elements of sex within marriage already. And the focus of marriage laws is to a large extent on unnatural things like property rights.

Final thoughts

In the 1996 Romer v. Evans case, the Supreme Court struck down a state law that prevented any local government from recognizing homosexuals as a protected class. It stated, “If the constitutional conception of ‘equal protection of the laws’ [from the Fourteenth Amendment] means anything, it must at the very least mean that a bare . . . desire to harm a politically unpopular group cannot constitute a legitimate governmental interest.” When we consider them, we find that the arguments raised by the anti-same-sex marriage crowd either have no legitimate governmental interest or are simply factually wrong.

To any Christians who may be having second thoughts on their opposition to same-sex marriage, let me suggest a graceful exit. Stop parroting conservative politicians and instead follow the lead of Jesus. We have no record of Jesus scolding homosexuals for what they did between the sheets, but we read much about his concern for the poor and sick. “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.” Homosexuality isn’t a lifestyle choice, but hateful Christianity is.

Despite Obergefell, the June, 2015 Supreme Court case legalizing same-sex marriage nationwide, Frank Turek is still flogging this dead horse because it benefits him. He has an audience who will pay him to pat them on the head and assure them that their prejudice is not only reasonable but God given.

We can find a parallel in the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi. In the lead-up to the games, Russian president Vladimir Putin caused waves with his anti-gay pronouncements. With Russia in the spotlight, why would he make his country look bad within the international community? But Putin’s intended audience wasn’t the international community; he was grandstanding to the folks back home who rewarded a tough-on-gays attitude.

In a similar way, I doubt Frank cares much what outsiders think. I doubt he expects to convert many liberal Christians to his way of thinking. He just wants to please his conservative Christian constituents. Frank is the anti-gay Pied Piper, leading nervous Christians who are delighted to follow someone who will assure them that the sky is indeed falling and eager to pay for the privilege of being in his club.

If Jesus wants to perform an impressive miracle, he could get these Christians to focus on the actual problems in the world. God knows there are hundreds more important than this one.

“Every human being [already] has the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex”? That’s seriously the empty and heartless sentiment you want to be remembered for, Frank?

History is listening.

How ironic that most of the same people squawking,
“You can’t redefine marriage”

have been trying to redefine “murder” since 1973.
— commenter Sven2547,
referring to the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision


(This is an update of a post that originally appeared 1/21/15.)

Photo credit: Wikipedia

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  • Lex Lata

    Some years ago (before Obergefell), Lad Lata and I were in the car, listening to a local news story about hotly-debated legislation that was about to authorize same-sex marriage here in Minnesota. My son asked, “Sheesh, why does anyone care who marries who?” I’ve never been so proud of the kid’s indifference.

  • skl

    20. But same-sex marriage is unnatural.
    Just think about it. . . yuck!

    This made me think of something that puzzles me. Specifically, how remarkable it is how pro-gay-sex
    Liberals try to smear Conservatives by joking that they engage in gay sex.

    For example, I recall Stephen Colbert recently saying
    that Trump served as Putin’s “c*ck holster“.

    And more recently, MSNBC host Mika Brzezinski said on air
    “Are the pathetic deflections that we
    just heard when [Secretary of State Mike Pompeo] appeared on Fox & Friends,
    is that a patriot speaking? Or a wannabe dictator’s butt-boy?”

    I find this very queer, that is, very odd.

    Perhaps Bob S. will do a piece or two on prominent pro-LGBT people who use gay imagery as insults.

    • eric

      It’s not that odd that humans (of any political, religious, or cultural background) know how to push each others’ buttons. For any opposing persons A and B, A can probably find an insult that ticks off B, and vice versa.

      However, IIRC there’s a body of research that supports the notion that conservatives associate what they consider to be immoral with what they consider to be disgusting. While liberals tend to separate the two concepts. Which is why conservative arguments against some behavior sometimes fall flat on liberal ears; what conservatives consider a compelling analogy (‘it’s like pooping on someone!’), liberals will think is a non-sequitur. In reverse, liberal intellectual arguments in favor of allowing some behavior may likewise fall flat on conservative ears, because they don’t lessen the disgust conservatives feel for the action.

      • skl

        You may have something there. IOW, both conservatives
        and some prominent pro-LGBT people find gay behavior disgusting, but it has the bonus of being immoral for conservatives. Like adding insult to (what both parties feel is) injury.

        • ildi

          some prominent pro-LGBT people find gay behavior disgusting

          Names, or admit you’re making this up.

    • Raging Bee

      Um, no, we’re joking about gay-bashing Conservatives being CAUGHT having or pursuing gay sex.

      • Haggard’s Law.

        The serious irony is when you’re anti-gay (like most conservatives) and you’re caught in a gay situation. When you’re pro-gay, either there’s nothing to be caught at, or it’s adultery–not cool, but there is no Haggard’s Law irony. And it always seems to be the conservatives.

    • Jim Jones

      There’s no point in scaring a bear with ghost stories.

    • Kodie

      Chrissake, you’re still here?

      I don’t think it’s great to insult someone for seeming gay, as though being gay is a valid insult. So what if Putin fucks Trump up the ass, that’s fine, but let’s be open about their loving relationship instead of pretending they are not together.

  • Miranda

    “Christians are obliged to reject same-sex marriage”….
    Um No…Many churches and individual Christians support it – now this occurs in one of two ways. Some progressive Christians, such as myself, see nothing wrong with homosexuality, reject a literal reading of the bible as anachronistic and more often than not hypocritically selective (nothing wrong with poly-cotton fabrics or shell fish so why get jumped up on man on man abominations!), and are more than happy to have more wedding to go to and encourage peoples relationships.

    A second group of Christians still affirm homosexuality is a sin, and marriage is between a man and a woman (and not o the trans kind) But are happy for it to be legalized as ultimately the church and state must be separate – the law is for everyone and if two non-Christian women want to get married they should not be stopped by a Christian (usually a cis hetero male afraid of his occasional attraction to other men).

    Men like Turek are an embarrassment to themselves and all Christians they purport to speak for, you are absolutely right Mr. Seidensticker to take his foolishness apart.

    Side note would love to see an article addressing (or rebutting!) the recent book – “God is Good For you – a Defense of Christianity” by Greg Sheridan.

    • Otto

      It probably should read “Some Christians are obliged to reject same-sex marriage”. The point is that those Christians feel their very religion obligates their rejection of certain people…no it is not all Christians, but in this country there are a whole lot of them and they consider it a war, a literal war that has to be fought tooth and nail with their opposition. I appreciate you are not in that group and I don’t blame you for being put off by being lumped in with them.

      Re: Side note
      I don’t know what Sheridan’s point is but I read a couple of reviews and either the reviews didn’t understand what he was trying to say or his point got lost somewhere. I would like to see Bob review the book but that is up to him. Would you like to present what you think are a few of Sheridan’s better points and discuss them?

    • Kodie

      I don’t think your rationalizing your version of Christianity legitimizes your superstition as much as you want it to. Yeah, you’re more normal to society that you think makes you different to born-again fundie weirdos, but you still adhere to a religion that is a superstitious myth, and pretend that’s fine. Men like Turek don’t get flaky about what the bible actually says and what the religion actually purports, so what about the bible do you stick to an why, because you can erase a bunch of it somehow. Honestly being extremely wrong by adhering to what the bible says, vs. ignoring lots of the bible or interpreting it creatively means you’re more “authentic” a Christian? How far away from the bible do you need to get to admit you don’t believe in god? To me, you are trying to fit in and rationalize. Either adhere to what the bible says, or admit it is full of errors and is most likely entirely stupid bullshit.

      • Miranda

        “To me, you are trying to fit in and rationalize. Either adhere to what the bible says, or admit it is full of errors and is most likely entirely stupid bullshit.”

        That’s a bit of a false dichotomy, if you take the bible as a spiritual rather than scientific or completely historical document (call it historical spiritual fiction) then you can admit it has errors as flawed as the men who wrote it but still adhere to a core spiritual concept love of neighbour, self, active questioning of God (of which Job is arguably all about).
        But I take your point, here is the thing your question “How far away from the bible do you need to get to admit you don’t believe in god?” I’d answer (probably won’t satisfy you) in that you can believe in God without believing in the Bible, but you can’t take the bible as a spiritual document of guidance unless you believe in god first.

        • Kodie

          Isn’t it just another self-help book on the shelf? It might help, you might need something (or nothing) else?

        • Miranda

          Self Help book – you could certainly say that! Problem is when you take it as your only source of truth – all things in moderation. As fro something else, well that’s’ why I read blogs like Mr. Seidenstickers to see if something else is more helpful.

    • “God is Good For you – a Defense of Christianity” by Greg Sheridan

      Can you point me to anything about it? I couldn’t find this on Amazon.

      • Miranda

        Sorry holiday break!
        Try Amazon in Australia or Kindle. While the second half is all about Australia and can be ignored (except perhaps if you’re interested into the state of Christianity down under) the first does go up against Atheist arguments and promotes a view on the importance of retaining Christianity as an indelible part of western civilization.


        The first part is in five main sections each of which I’m sure you could sink some teeth into – I think in particular you’d have a field day with Chapter 3 – “What did we ever get from Christianity – apart from the idea of the individual, human rights, feminism, liberalism, modernity, social justice and secular politics” and Chapter 1 – “Believing in god is rational, atheism is an odd religious faith and the new atheists are false prophets.

        • TheNuszAbides

          how does he establish that any of those things are causally connected to “Christianity”? the main problem is when you presume that everything originates with ‘God’, the concept of ‘credit’ is meaningless outside of a contrast with ‘rebels’ or ‘contrarians’ who would suppose anything other than a ‘divine’ source. would no mathematician have come up with zero if Hinduism had been wiped out beforehand?

          and he must really torture the definition of ‘modernity’ to credit Christianity with it. try pulling that one on a Thomist – come to think of it, it was a Thomist who I first saw (about 10 yrs ago) claiming that Christianity is/was required for individualism and human rights to become a thing (along with some handful of medieval developments in technology). needless to say, he didn’t explain the ingenious process by which no other religious hegemony could have encouraged/initiated/etc. such things – just produced a list, because all he was actually arguing against was some sweeping statement like “under Christian dominance, science was at a standstill for 1500 years” … so let’s start with not assuming there’s a counterclaim on the table. does Sheridan back this stuff up, or is he just burning straw? the descriptions i’ve seen suggest that he’s only selected ‘new atheist’ arguments to respond to. (though if he follows suit with the other anti-new-atheist theists, he will fail to engage ‘Horseman’ Dennett.)

      • TheNuszAbides

        this could be interesting … or horribly uninteresting. Sheridan is the Foreign Editor of yet another Rupert Murdoch organ, so my hopes aren’t exactly high right off the bat.

        … the amazon reviews are worthless so far; most detailed review on goodreads had these nuggets:

        The book attempts to do what apologists like C.S. Lewis and G.K. Chesterton have done in bringing some theological reflection to a non-specialist audience, though without the same degree of intellectual weight.

        um … far from impressive even were it with “the same degree of intellectual weight”.

        his form of Catholic faith is one that is aware of the values of a liberal society that takes pluralism seriously. Being married to a Sikh and raising two sons in that religious tradition has no doubt helped to provide sensitivity to interfaith issues.

        now that’s at least interesting.


        some clearly skeptical guy (actually the only one i could detect across several websites; most are obvious cheerleaders with reviews devoid of detail) refers to Sheridan’s apologetics and apologetic references as all “low-hanging fruit variety” but has gone 8 months without releasing his “formal review to follow”.


    • disqus_6eYbqH77V7 important

  • Jim Jones

    > Legally equating [straight and same-sex] relationships breaks the link between marriage and childbearing which leads to higher illegitimacy and a chain of negative effects that fall like dominoes—illegitimacy leads to poverty, crime, and higher welfare costs which lead to bigger government, higher taxes, and a slower economy.

    So, increase the minimum wage.

    A couple of gay men will spend about $120,000 to get “their own” baby. The spend any amount to care for it.

    A poor waitress will get knocked up in the back of a Chevy after drinking 40 or two. Then the child will be born into a society that only really cares about the children of wealthy.

    Educator: In Finland, I realized how ‘mean-spirited’ the U.S. education system really is – The Washington Post

    The fact that students can fail and return, or work and return, or retire and return had a palpable effect on the mood and the tone of the buildings. Surprisingly, considering their achievements, Finnish students spend less time in the classroom, have more breaks throughout the day, and benefit from receiving medical, dental, psychiatric care and healthful meals while in school. It was … nice.

    In comparison, the United States public school system (an idea we invented, by the way) seems decidedly mean-spirited.

    Our students enter at around age 5 and have some 13 years to attain a high school diploma. Failure to earn a diploma is a dead end for most. In the United States, when students fail at school — or leave due to many other factors, sometimes just as resistant teenagers — we are done with you. Sure, there are outliers who are successful through luck, sweat, connections or all three, but for most, the lack of a diploma is a serious obstacle toward advancement.

    Without a high school diploma, educational aspirations can be severely truncated. Students need a high school diploma to attend community colleges and many technical schools which provide access to advanced skills that impact the living standard.

    With or without the needed diploma, any additional education is at the student’s expense in time or money — a further blow to financial standing.


    • Michael Neville

      the lack of a diploma is a serious obstacle toward advancement.

      As a further example of this, in the US Navy and Marine Corps (I don’t know about the other services), one cannot be promoted to E4 (Petty Officer Third Class or Corporal) without a high school diploma or GED.

      • Jim Jones

        Got A Bad Reading About This (Link)

        March 14, 2018

        (I am a recently-hired grocery store assistant manager. An elderly relative of mine comes into the store shortly before the start of the holiday season with her neighbor’s son. Apparently, this young man got his girlfriend pregnant and is in desperate need of a job. She is asking me to use my “connections” to get him a job.)

        Elderly Relative: “This is [Job Seeker]. He needs a job because his girlfriend is pregnant and he needs money to support the baby. He would preferably like a management position.

        (I am a little taken aback by this, as I am the latest management trainee to graduate from the corporate program. The corporate training program requires at least FIVE years of management experience or a bachelor’s degree. This kid doesn’t look old enough for either.)

        Me: “Well, [Job Seeker], let’s go over to the application kiosk so you can fill out an application. I can’t guarantee a management position, but we are hiring for a bunch of other positions in the store.”

        (The job seeker goes over to the computer terminal that we use for job applications and I tell him to sit down and click the start button.)

        Job Seeker: “What is the start button?”

        Me: “The button that says, ‘Start.’ Use the mouse and click on it.”

        Job Seeker: “I can’t read!”

        Me: “What do you mean, you can’t read?”

        Job Seeker: “I was homeschooled, and my mama never taught me how to read!”

        (Thinking this is some kind of a joke, I ask my relative if this is true. She says that it is indeed true, and that he was homeschooled by barely-literate parents who just taught their children oral Bible stories as their entire homeschool “education.” The state standards on homeschooling allowed his mother to fudge his grades and grant him a high school diploma.)

        Me: “[Elderly Relative], what did you think you were doing, bringing him down here? I can’t hire someone who doesn’t even know how to read well enough to fill out a job application!”

        Elderly Relative: “But you can teach him how to read! Isn’t that your job as the assistant store manager?”

        Me: “It’s not my job to teach this kid how to perform basic life functions. I’m busy enough trying to manage the store. My manager would fire me on the spot if I hired him!”

        Elderly Relative: “I can’t believe that you are going to let this kid go without a job! He is going to be a father, you know! He failed out of Job Corps because he couldn’t read!”

        (I then ask if someone tried to teach him how to read while he was in Job Corps. Someone indeed did, but he didn’t think he “needed to know how to read” to function in society! The job seeker then goes into a rant about how his daddy says that reading is “stupid.” He tells me that his daddy makes $11 an hour loading trucks and can’t read, so he doesn’t understand why he can’t get a job at the store. I then take the job seeker to a section of the store that needs restocking and show him a very basic plan-o-gram. Most of the positions that we have are for replenishment associates. I ask him to tell me where a specific product should go on the store shelf based upon the plan-o-gram. Not surprisingly, he can’t.)

        Me: “[Job Seeker], I can’t hire you because you can’t perform the basic functions of the job. Have you tried Vocational Rehabilitation? Maybe they can put you in classes to teach you how to read.”

        Elderly Relative: “I don’t understand why you can’t get him a job here! You were homeschooled, so you should know how hard it is for homeschooled kids! You didn’t graduate from college until you were 30!”

        Me: “If you can’t recall, I could read when I was four! I also went to college and earned my degree eventually. I dropped out of a program that I didn’t like and did a stint as a truck driver to see the country. I received a quality education that prepared me for basic life skills and even prepared me for college.”

        Elderly Relative: “What about the trucking company that you worked for? Could they hire [Job Seeker] as a driver? He doesn’t have a driver’s license, but he could get one.”

        Me: “I don’t think you understand. The testing for commercial drivers is much harder than a simple job application. If he can’t read enough to fill out a job application, there is no way that he is going to be able to study the driver training manual and take the test. I’m not even going to bother embarrassing myself by talking to my old boss about hiring [Job Seeker].”

        Elderly Relative: “But it is your fault that he can’t get a job! You won’t hire him!”

        Me: “I’m not going to hire someone who can’t perform the basic functions of the job and who would be a hindrance to my other employees. If he couldn’t hack Job Corps, he isn’t going to hack it working here.”

        Elderly Relative: “Well, you’re just being unChristian! Come on, [Job Seeker]. Maybe the Army will take you!”

        (I later heard from a friend at the recruiting office that [Job Seeker] was rejected because he could barely write his own name, let alone fill out the paperwork to take the ASVAB. He also had a criminal record that my relative had not disclosed to me. The last I heard, he was doing time in the county lockup for burglary. If I had known the names of the parents, I would have reported them to social services for failing to educate their children!)


        • quinsha

          I would say that you were exaggerating, except that I ran into a similar problem. I was working as an associate at Wal-Mart, and our boss put a job seeker into the break room to fill out the job forms, and the young man turned to me and said “I can’t read this, can you read it to me?” Sadly I had to tell him that if I did that I risked losing my job. The look on the young man’s face was enough to break my heart. I was wondering how the heck he graduated high school without being able to read a job application.

        • Quinsha important

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          There’s truth to the statement that lots of high schools are just warehousing kids.

        • Amazing. It’s helpful to have an anecdote to put a face on the statistics.

  • eric

    If we celebrate harmful behavior we are being unloving. Love requires we tell people the truth, even if it upsets them.

    I’m not sure what the former has to do with the latter, and what either has to do with morality or sin.

    If my kid has a communicable disease, it is the truth that my hugging and kissing him makes it more likely that I will get it. But he, I, and others may still celebrate my choice to be physically close to him. Or not – people’s opinion will differ on that, but I fail to see a theological requirement there. Lastly, if one is Protestant (…Frank Turek is), whether a parent chooses to wear a face mask or not has nothing to do (theologically) with whether the parent gets in to Christian heaven – since under Protestantism that is entirely determined by their faith. Sola Fides, Frank – did you forget?

    Now, apply all of that to gays, Frank…

    • Raging Bee

      They did. Exceptions appeared out of nothing.

  • Even if you agree with him about “illegitimacy”, the causation here is backwards. This grew common long before any same-sex marriage laws.

  • Kodie

    Gay sex seems yucky primarily because most people aren’t gay, so don’t understand the attraction same sex has for some people, so it is very easy to convince people that it is unnatural, because they already feel unnatural about it, and influence gay people to feel ashamed rather than proud or open about it. I mean, if what you liked wasn’t popular to the point of ridicule, you’d think yourself weird, and therefore ashamed and hidden, because what’s yucky to everyone else around you isn’t yucky to you. To put it some other way, for some reason over the last couple decades, clowns became scary. Maybe clowns have always been scary, but it has become a “thing” on the internet to see clowns as creepy rather than enntertaining, and became a meme.. Unless a clown is particularly drawn to be frightening, I don’t find clowns scary at all. I don’t even believe most people find clowns scary. I think they are going along with the meme and reacting, subconsciously, to feel some aversion to clown images. I mean, there’s a meme that gay people are immoral or unnatural, but I don’t believe most people to be authentic in that assertion, but persuaded by popularity of their group to say things without thinking what they are talking about.

    • Otto


      You and you good points have been missed. I agree with the clown analogy.

    • Michael Neville

      Our Kodie is back!

      O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!
      He chortled in his joy.

      Since many cis-hetro people are uncomfortable thinking or talking about sex, it’s easy to persuade them that a form of sex they wouldn’t indulge in is “sinful” and “immoral”.

    • Doubting Thomas

      I don’t think that it’s necessarily the same sex part that people find yucky about it. My wife is straight and yet I find her attraction to me to be weird and yucky. I think that the attraction that straight women and gay men have for other men is in some way yucky because, as a man, I understand just how yucky most men are. We’re oddly hairy, weirdly proportioned, and fart a lot.

      I have wondered if most people’s disdain for gay sex comes from the inability to mentally insert one’s self into the situation. If I see a sex scene between a man and a woman, I can pleasantly think of myself in the man’s place. If I see a sex scene between two women, I can insert myself anywhere (pun intended). If I see a sex scene between two guys, there’s nowhere I could mentally put myself that I would find enjoyable.

      • Kodie

        And I always think it’s weird how men could be attracted to women, based on stereotypical behaviors and presentation. Women are stereotypically soft and pretty and smell nice, maybe high-maintenance and confusing, I am not saying that’s what women are, but that’s what I hear men think women are, all kinds of things men try to avoid associating with in other dimensions, like food choices and home decor. Men shame each other with toxic masculinity to avoid ruffly pillows and might hang a sheet over the window with a staple gun if left to their own devices, won’t touch a vegetable or yogurt, and have to be tricked by marketing to groom at a slightly higher level than the man who washes everything on him with the same bar of soap and sniffs a shirt on the floor to see if he can wear it again. A woman is just the opposite of what he’s looking for, unless he’s admitting he can’t take care of himself, which doesn’t seem manly to admit. By the way, most women are weirdly hairy, we just spend a lot more time and money to pretend we’re not so a man would even want to be near us, and so other women don’t judge us, if you’re the kind who cares about that sort of thing. I am straight, but I can’t really tell you what a woman really finds attractive about men, well, we can sort through what’s more attractive.

        • Doubting Thomas

          I’m guessing that when most people are thinking about what they find sexually attractive, food choices and home decor don’t come to mind.

          I was just trying to figure out the reason so many people find the thought or sight of gay sex unappealing.

        • Kodie

          I was just comparing women with the other things men usually like, and how it doesn’t make sense to me.

        • Doubting Thomas
        • Cozmo the Magician

          I think u messed up some coding. or maybe discus is just being bad today.

        • Greg G.

          Disqus limits the HTML you can use but it adds some tags like <spoiler>See what this does?</spoiler>.

          For YouTube videos, all you need is the URL that is provided in a Google search or by the “Share” button on the YouTube video. Never try the “iframe” tag.

        • disqus_ifemywCqch but

        • disqus_ifemywCqch briefly

        • I think it’s not that gay sex is gross but that sex is gross. Imagine meeting someone at a cocktail party and having them quickly move from name and occupation to their sexual fantasies. In the right context, you might be aroused, but probably not here.

  • RichardSRussell

    “Every human being [already] has the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex”

    And now, thanks to Obergefell, every human being also has the same right to marry someone of the same sex. Equal rights, what a concept!

  • JustAnotherAtheist2

    Legally equating [straight and same-sex] relationships breaks the link between marriage and childbearing which leads to higher illegitimacy and a chain of negative effects that fall like dominoes—illegitimacy leads to poverty, crime, and higher welfare costs which lead to bigger government, higher taxes, and a slower economy.

    It’s hotly contest, but this may well be the dumbest thing Frank Turek has ever said. I can’t imagine how this is even supposed to be compelling, let alone actually being so

    • Cozmo the Magician

      I used to use the phrase ‘you fucking bastard’ as an insult. No more. Not after reading his shit. I’m going to use it as a compliment.

      • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

        Alexander Hamilton and Steve Jobs, for two…

    • Otto

      Since he designated himself the adult in the room I am sure this piece of shit thinks he gets to define what is ‘legitimate’ and what isn’t.

    • justanotheratheist2 important

    • Poor Frank has been dealt a crappy hand, and he’s doing the best with what he has.

  • Cozmo the Magician

    What is ‘gay sex’? AFAIK the sexual practices of hetero and gays are very similar. Maybe if this idiot ever had a decent BJ he would understand. OTOH, I can’t imagine ANYBODY wanting to have ANY kind of sex with this hateful piece of shit.

    • Greg G.

      If he can’t have the kind of sex he desires, he is going to stop everybody from having it.

    • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

      Robin Williams had something to say about that, in Good Morning Vietnam:


  • Greg G.
  • Grimlock

    Hey y’all, lurkers and commenters alike.

    Happy holidays!

    • Otto

      Back at ya Grim!

    • Kevin K

      Festivus for the rest of us!

  • Herald Newman

    Legally equating [straight and same-sex] relationships breaks the link between marriage and childbearing …

    Well shit Frank, we better go about making sure that people aren’t getting married if they aren’t having children. Perhaps you should propose some kind of law that forces married couples to have a baby within two years of getting married. Or better yet we could also push for laws that stop the elderly, and the sterilized (you know, people who cannot have children), from being married. If they aren’t having kids, what are they doing getting married, right Frank?

    Oh wait, this hasn’t broken down society yet (and I doubt many people are claiming that they are), but somehow the gays are going to lead to the downfall of society… Anybody who thinks that the concern over gay marriage has anything to do with babies is just ignorant of the opinions of fundie Christians..

  • ThaneOfDrones

    Happy Newtonmas to all!

  • aCultureWarrior

    #17: It’s pretty hard to embrace Jesus’ 2 greatest commandments (they’re commandments, not suggestions), while embracing homosexuality .
    #18 Moral decay has been the downfall of many a civilization.
    #19 Ask any EX homosexual, and they’ll tell you what caused their homosexual desires (being raped by a homosexual adult as a child, or growing up in a dysfunctional family where the father is absent or abusive, or having an overbearing mother).
    #20 Call me old fashioned, but I always thought that the anus was made for expelling human waste, not for sex. 80% of homosexual males admit to engaging in buggery, the other 20% are liars.

    • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

      Just more evidence that you’re reading the (useless, hateful) prejudices drummed into you in your youth into the supernatural meme that rules your life.

      If you bother to read the scholarship on that, what was apparently being condemned was prostitution.

      But YOUR KIND don’t care, as long as you can damage others, now do you?

      BTW, lots of straight couples like anal sex, too…so you might want to reformulate….or is it because you’re closeted and self-loathing? I see shades of that in your behavior…

      • aCultureWarrior

        *I’m sorry Harold , but I don’t have a copy of the rainbow flag waving “Queen James Bible” which obviously says homosexuality is perfectly normal as long as money isn’t exchanged. BTW, does the Queen James Bible embrace other sexual deviant behaviors as well that the Bible prohibits such as incest and bestiality?
        *The anus is to a homosexual act as the vagina is to a heterosexual act. Do so-called heterosexuals experiment with buggery? Yes, but then chances are that would be the same people who experiment with homosexuality as well (the “B” in the LGBT acronym).

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          In short, you’re a mouthy fuckup who is emotionally convinced that you know more than people who’ve studied the languages and history.

          But then, you’re a fundy xtian, so I repeat myself…

        • aCultureWarrior

          Always nice debating with you Harold, and don’t forget to “get tested!”

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          You’re even incompetent at pathetic attempts to insult, belittle, and malign.

          You know nothing about me except that I oppose your hateful overreach in the name of a horrifying superstitious meme, yet feel qualified to throw out phrases that you feel should ‘put me in my place’.

          May the people surrounding you in meatspace discover what a horrible person you are and publicize it so you’ll never know a day’s peace from being hounded from pillar to post to escape your reputation, in a cold, brutish, painful existence.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Good boy Harold, let all of that HATE out. While having inner peace through a relationship with Jesus Christ is tranquility at it’s highest peak, I suppose a lisping rant on the internet is better than beating up your boyfriend.

        • Kodie

          If you had inner peace, you would not be so bothered that homosexuality is normal. You really can’t stand it, it has sent you into such a fit that you can’t stop commenting about how your delusion is the answer to a problem that doesn’t actually exist. I suppose a brainwashed rant on the internet is better than beating up Harold’s boyfriend, you are actually harassing people and shaming them with your delusions, which is the source of any homosexuals’ inner issues.

        • aCultureWarrior

          You’ve been submerged so long in your culture of moral depravity that you don’t even know what’s normal. How sad.

        • Kodie

          You’ve traded in your brain and your heart for your cult that you mistake for success.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          You’re projecting like MAD, in case you’d missed it, Gollum.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Is THAT the best you’ve got?

          I call you out for being the worthless fuckup you demonstrate yourself to be here, state that justice would be for you to have to live it without hiding behind anonymity, and all you can do is call *justice* ‘hate’?!?

          And while on the topic: Why *shouldn’t* I hate somebody who would try to take authoritarian control over me or my life in the name of a hateful, destructive superstition?

        • MR

          Their behavior belies their claim to being a good Christian. Somehow I don’t think Jesus would be proud. Douche bags for Jesus.

          “Not all those who cry Lord, Lord….”

        • MRussula gg

        • Zeropoint

          “The anus is to a homosexual act as the vagina is to a heterosexual act.”

          Hmm. Your knowledge of sex acts seems quite limited. I wonder what you think lesbians do?

        • aCultureWarrior

          Why on earth would one woman strap on a dildo and penetrate another woman when the real thing (a man) is available? Makes no sense to me Zero, does it to you?

        • Zeropoint

          It sure does! As a straight guy, I find women to be appealing, so it’s easy for me to imagine that woman could have pants feelings toward an attractive woman!

        • Kodie

          Why do you care what two people love each other, and what they do together? Aren’t you the sick one, imagining other people in their bedrooms? You sound bitter and obsessed about it. Are you sure that’s love?

        • aCultureWarrior

          I imagine them going to the HIV/AIDS clinic to get tested monthly. Your definition of love is perverse.

        • Greg G.

          I imagine them going to the HIV/AIDS clinic to get tested monthly.

          That sounds even more bitter and obsessed.

        • BlackMamba44

          That’s not the only thing he imagines them doing! He’s got some serious issues.

          My man is hetero and homosexuality/gay sex never even enter his mind. The only sex on his mind is hetero sex.

          Hell, he’s binge watched the entire series of “Shameless” a few times now. And that show is full of gay sex scenes.

        • Kodie

          Do you also worry someone will beat the shit out of them for holding hands in public? Or is that love.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          How twisted of you…gloating in another’s assumed misfortune.

          But then, YOUR KIND do that as easily as you breathe, so…

        • Kodie

          Why would someone have an imaginary friend who tells them what to do, and they’re afraid of hell, so they do what the human mouthpiece for the imaginary friend tells them to do.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Because man isn’t smart enough to do what’s right.

        • Kodie

          Yeah, you are dumb and it steered you wrong.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Humanity is doing better ALL THE TIME since the Enlightenment occurred and we stopped listening to you authoritarian freaks.

        • Greg G.

          Why on earth would one woman strap on a dildo and penetrate another woman when the real thing (a man) is available?

          Do you know what some women call the useless piece of flesh at the end of a penis? A man.

        • aCultureWarrior

          So they turn to a plastic phallic object for sex. There’s a lot of trauma in the life of a homosexual, lesbians included. There’s help out there for them, all they have to do is ask.
          Lesbian Sexual Practices and Disease

        • Kodie

          You are definitely ignoring the traumatic effects of having to pretend to be straight because Christians think they own morality and society. Where is god in all this? It’s just something you pretend is the authority, then you beat people over the head with your ignorance, fear, hate, and intolerance. Why wouldn’t they suffer trauma in your world? They must, they have to, to fit into your worldview, they have to come to YOU, the LORD, for mercy. Only, you’re just a fuckhead on the internet, not lord.

          You are a pawn using judgment to alter other people to cave in and give in to your cult, that’s all. It’s sad that some people are vulnerable and you find them the best ones to pick on to join your cult. It’s actually mean and heartless and monstrous of you. But you deflect and say you’re at total peace and love gay people straight like they should be. Sorry, you’re just pathetic and brainwashed.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          That organization is the house organ of an anti-LGBTQ hate group:

          The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a socially conservative advocacy group of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States. … ACPeds has been listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center for “pushing anti-LGBT junk science”.

          Members: 500 (estimated)

          American College of Pediatricians – Wikipedia

        • Greg G.

          There are risks no matter what you do. For example, actively avoiding sex makes people act like you. There is a simple cure but you fear it.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          That’s the *point*.

          It doesn’t HAVE to make sense to you or YOUR KIND.

          Y’all need to just fuck off and let good people live our lives WITHOUT your authoritarian superstitious interference.

    • eric

      It’s pretty hard to embrace Jesus’ 2 greatest commandments (they’re commandments, not suggestions), while embracing homosexuality .

      First and foremost, nobody has to embrace Jesus’ commands in order to get married. The right of non-Christians to marry is protected by the state. So what you say would be no argument against gay marriage, even if it was right.

      But second, it’s wrong at least IMO. Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself? These say nothing about homosexuality. Gays can be both Christian (loving God) and be loving, kind, and forgiving to their neighbors.

      Lastly, if you don’t like anal sex, there’s an easy solution: don’t do it. I don’t like bungee jumping, but I don’t try and criminalize it or prevent others from doing it…I just choose not to do it.

    • Michael Neville

      Call me old fashioned

      I won’t call you old fashioned, I’ll call you a homophobic, hating bigot. You talk about Jesus’ two greatest commandments but it’s quite obvious that you only love people you approve of. If you don’t approve of someone for being homosexual or for some other reason, you have nothing but hatred for them. Typical evangelical Christian, known for the people you hate.

      • aCultureWarrior

        Obviously you’re confused by the words hate and love. If I encouraged someone to stay in a lifestyle that is full of disease, misery and death, which homosexuality is, that would be an act of hate on my part. If I told them that Jesus Christ has a better way for them, a way that will help them escape their miserable life, that’s an act of love.

        • Michael Neville

          I’m not confused at all. You hate homosexuals. You express you hatred plainly and blatantly. Which is normal for an evangelical, fundamentalist Christian. You folk are known for who you hate and how loudly you express that hatred.

          Unlike you, I actually know homosexuals. They’re no more disease-ridden than anyone else (AIDS stopped being a “gay” disease decades ago, something you’d know if you actually gave a damn about anyone besides your hating self). The only reason why depression is more common among LGBTQs than the general population is because bigots like you go out of your fucking way to make them miserable.

          No, bigot, you’re not loving in the least. You’re a hater and proud of your hatred.

        • aCultureWarrior

          *I “hate” what those who have same sex desires are doing to themselves, to children and to society in general. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want even the most despicable among you (Dan Savage) to repent and accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior and join the fight to restore decency to this once great country. I would “love” nothing better than for all of you to do that.
          *Check CDC reports.

        • Michael Neville

          Don’t lie. You hate people who love other people differently than what you think is “decent”. Your hatred for LGBTQs seeps out of everything you write because you think they lack “decency”.

          Why should anyone “accept” any god that you’re a representative of? I can understand accepting a loving god but if you’re an advertisement for Jesus then Jesus has to be the most hating asshole of a god possible.

          When did this country stop being great? Was it when your hero, Donald Trump, became Maximum Leader?

        • aCultureWarrior

          *Just because I mock you doesn’t mean that I don’t want the very best for you Mike. If I hated you Mike, I’d tell you to buggerize away to your little pea pickin heart’s desire.
          *You’re going to hate me even more after I tell you this: But Donald Trump is YOUR ally (I’ve spent the last two years exposing his ties to the homosexual/transgender movement before being President and during).

        • Michael Neville

          You’re mocking me? I’ve just read all of your posts on this thread and mocking is not there. All I see is your hatred for LGBTQs. I know you don’t hate me, you think I’m straight (which I am), so I’m not subject to your hatred. You save that up for the gays.

          Donald Trump is NOBODY’s ally. Trump is interested in one person to the exclusion of all others and that person isn’t anyone other than himself. But thanks for showing your hatred is so deep that you’ll even lie about Trump.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Why the need to point out that you don’t engage in same sex behavior Mike, is there something wrong with being accused of being a homosexual?
          Donald Trump has done great things for your movement Mike. Early in his wannabe dictatorship he said that “Obergefell v Hodges is settled law…it’s done”. It doesn’t get any better for the sodomite movement when a President who pretends to be a conservative on occasion takes society’s most valuable institution (the family is the nucleus of society) and turns it over to the sodomite movement.
          Be proud of Donald Trump, while he and you might not buggerize people of the same sex, you’re both supportive of sexual deviancy.

        • Michael Neville

          You think that homosexuality is wrong because it gives you a group to hate. Like many conservative Christians, your religion is based solely on hatred. You even hate Trump, not because he’s a narcissistic liar, a debauchee, and a racist, but because he once said promised nice to LGBTQs (and never followed through).

        • Pofarmer

          I think the Hagard rule might come into effect.

        • Greg G.

          Haggard’s Law has been cited a few times with this bigot.

        • aCultureWarrior

          You are one of many reasons “Why Homosexuality MUST Be Recriminalized!” Mike. I don’t know what happened in your life that caused you to hate so much, but Jesus can fix that for you.
          And yes, Donald Trump is all of the above and a rainbow flag waver too. It must be eating you up inside that Donald Trump and you think so much alike.
          BTW, you used the term “Conservative Christian”. It seems to me that all Christians should “conserve” the teachings of God/Jesus Christ. If they don’t can they still be considered a follower of Christ?

        • Michael Neville

          How can a figment of your hating imagination fix anything? First you have to show that your Jesus exists before you can claim it can do things.

          I admit that I hate you. Bigots bring that out in me, especially bigots who use their religion to excuse their bigotry. As for the rest of your rant, I’m ignoring what a hating, homophobic asshole has to say.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Why not hate people who would hate a person for what s/he IS, rather than what s/he DOES?

          Abusing others is wrong, but YOUR KIND don’t get to set the agenda on what counts as abuse, either.

        • Greg G.

          There’s only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people’s cultures and the Dutch.

          ― Michael Caine

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          tRump is a moral reprobate for SECULAR reasons, and YOUR KIND thoroughly embrace him and put him in the Oval Office.

          And YOUR KIND *don’t* get to set the agenda any more, and you’re continuing to lose power…otherwise you’d be out in public acting like Iran’s “Morality Police”. You’re here because you have to remain anonymous or you’d be socially pilloried and isolated as you so thoroughly deserve for trying to flex your authoritarian tendencies.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          You don’t give a FUCK about people.

          You *desperately* care about the right to abuse others as an authoritarian with no pushback and no way to escape your control.

          Your screeds here are proof enough of that.

        • Kodie

          You have a superstition that magical Jesus does anything to restore anything to anyone. It is a fake set of rules that the people who suffer the punishment of doing what they will because your army also enforces the punishment that they suffer. It’s not being gay that causes any destruction, but the hatred of gays that cause destruction, gays to hate themselves, and to turn inward on themselves, aside from the isolation and persecution they get to “enjoy” as a solution to force them to be straight, and they will never be straight. They can pretend for your comfort at their cost, and no reward in heaven. God’s not going to punish them because he’s not real. You’re going to punish them because you’re real, and you’re really superstitious and warped that punishing people is a loving act, according to a magic book. Sorry, but you have a disease that breaks down society, and deceive yourself.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Remember that when we’re dealing with same sex desires and behavior Kodie, we’re dealing with broken people who as children, the vast majority of the time were sexually molested. When it comes to human sexuality, their first experience was traumatic, and hence the reason they go looking for love in places where true love can never be found.
          A relationship with Jesus Christ has helped many of those sexually abused people understand why they had/have same sex desires, and many of them will be able to overcome those desires through spiritual, and often times spiritual and psychological therapy.

        • Kodie

          Remember when we’re talking about Christianity, we’re talking about people warped by their cult to hate people and make up rationalizations about why they need you to pester them, when they’re actually ok.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower


          You and YOUR KIND are *glorying* in your perversion of trying to fuck with other peoples’ sex lives with heavy-handed authoritarianism and blatant fucking LIES.

        • Anri

          Please cite the CDC reports indicating higher degrees of STD’s among lesbian couples.
          I’ll wait. (And wait, and wait…)

        • aCultureWarrior

          “… While all women have specific health risks, lesbian and bisexual women are at a higher risk for certain diseases than other women.”

        • Anri

          You didn’t actually read what I wrote, did you.

          Try again.
          Ask a friend if the words are too hard for you.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Didn’t like what the CDC has to say about your lesbian lifestyle?
          “Women who have sex with women (WSW) are a diverse group with variations in sexual identity, sexual behaviors, sexual practices, and risk behaviors. Recent studies indicate that some WSW, particularly adolescents and young women as well as women with both male and female partners, might be at increased risk for STDs and HIV based on reported risk behaviors (179-183). Certain studies have highlighted the wide diversity of sexual practices and examined use of protective/risk reduction strategies among populations of WSW (184-186). Use of barrier protection with female partners (gloves during digital-genital sex, condoms with sex toys, and latex or plastic barriers [also known as dental dams for oral-genital sex]) was infrequent in all studies. …

          Be sure to put condoms on your sex toys Anri!

        • Anri

          Didn’t like what the CDC has to say about your lesbian lifestyle?

          No, it just didn’t say anything that answered my question.

          Also, what makes you think I’m a lesbian? Please demonstrate your level of reading comprehension by indicating why you think that, I’d appreciate it.

          What the CDC report you are quoting this time around is saying is that WSW who are younger, or who have sex with men, are are at increased risk for STD then WSW who are older, or who don’t have male partners, or frequent male partners. Duh.
          Please explain how legislating against marriage for these people will increase these factors.

          If you’d like me to explain how marginalizing them leads to increased health problems, I’ll be happy to do so – with the exact report you first linked to.

        • aCultureWarrior

          *I’m checking to see if CDC reports come in braille. Obviously you’re only interested in seeing what you want to see.
          *So you just defend those who engage in sexual deviancy, but are too chicken to do it yourself?
          *Yes, lesbians have quite a bit of diversity in their ranks and as shown there are many risks to the unnatural behavior that they engage in.
          *Living a lie never helps anyone, that includes those who mock God’s institution of marriage.
          *Ahhh, the ole “Your homophobia lead to my STD’s/AIDS!” ploy. I could applaud your sexual deviant behavior and it wouldn’t change the fact that homosexuality is a unnatural/disease ridden behavior that is brought on by traumatic experiences in childhood (rape, dysfunctional family, etc.).

        • Anri

          I’m checking to see if CDC reports come in braille. Obviously you’re only interested in seeing what you want to see.

          My apologies for reading them, rather than just getting intimidated by a wall of text. I get that cherry-picking documents is kinda a big thing for theists, but it doesn’t play in all circles.
          …you did take a look over the documents in the line notes of the document you quoted, right?

          So you just defend those who engage in sexual deviancy, but are too chicken to do it yourself?

          I was just asking what you read of what I wrote that led you to believe I was a lesbian. If the answer is “Welp, I just assumed without having any good reason,” it’s probably better – and certainly more honest – to just admit that.
          Maybe honesty isn’t as much of a thing among theists as they’d like us to think, I dunno.

          Yes, lesbians have quite a bit of diversity in their ranks and as shown there are many risks to the unnatural behavior that they engage in.

          The “unnatural behaviors” listed in your quoted paragraph as increasing risk:
          1) Being young
          2) Having male sex partners.
          …but let’s all remember, you’re the one with the better reading comprehension.

          Living a lie never helps anyone, that includes those who mock God’s institution of marriage.

          Fortunately, I live in a country with a legal system explicitly separated from the multitude of god-bothering creeds inhabiting it. For those that prefer theocracies, there are still a few left available to move to.

          Ahhh, the ole “Your homophobia lead to my STD’s/AIDS!” ploy.

          Text from one of the references in your own link:

          Lesbians may experience chronic stress from discrimination. This stress is worse for women who need to hide their orientation as well as for lesbians who have lost important emotional support because of their orientation.
          Living with this stress can cause depression and anxiety.

          I didn’t say homophobia led to STD’s. I said that being marginalized leads to increased health problems, as indicated by the sources the CDC was drawing from. Which I just quoted, as I said I could.
          …but let’s all remember, you’re the one with the better reading comprehension.

          As for “unnatural”, except as a hidebound insult, I don’t get why the anti-gay faction puts such stock in the concept.

          There’s nothing natural about zipping down a highway at a mile a minute, or through the air at almost ten times that. There’s nothing natural about opening a person up and replacing their organs with someone else’s, or with machines, and them living well afterwards. There’s nothing natural about the majority of your kids living to adulthood, or you still having teeth when they have kids. These are all artificial things, imposed on the natural order by human thought and will. We call doing that “civilization”.

          For that matter, there’s nothing natural about typing on a keyboard to send images of letters to someone half a world away. If natural is more important to you than what you wish to do (as you insist it is for others), get the heck off the internet. There’s nothing more unnatural than the virtual world, and yet here you are.

          My question is: did you know you were a hypocrite in insisting other people follow what’s natural while not doing so yourself, or have you never actually twigged to the fact that you were?
          And which of those answers should inspire confidence in anything at all you have to say?

        • aCultureWarrior

          “The “unnatural behaviors” listed in your quoted paragraph as increasing risk:
          1) Being young
          2) Having male sex partners.”

          1). I’ve met a lot of young people and not one of them contracted STD’s because of their age.
          2). Bisexual male sex partners (the “B” in the LGBT acronym). Stick with God’s plan: one man, one woman, united in matrimony, it’s disease free.

          “Lesbians may experience chronic stress from discrimination. This stress is worse for women who need to hide their orientation as well as for lesbians who have lost important emotional support because of their orientation.
          Living with this stress can cause depression and anxiety.”

          One must remember what brought on these homosexual desires. They were either raped as a child or grew up in a dysfunctional home. These lost souls need spiritual and psychological help to overcome their living nightmare, not a license to continue to live in it.

          Regarding your “natural” rant: Anything to avoid talking about the health hazards of homosexuality ey?

        • Greg G.

          1). I’ve met a lot of young people and not one of them contracted STD’s because of their age.

          How do you know this? Do you interrogate young people about their sex lives and medical history?

          Do you think someone would tell something like that to a sexual deviant like yourself?

          Or do young people just smile and nod while you are talking, then walk away when you stop talking for a few seconds?

        • aCultureWarrior

          Look at Greg, he’s so deeply submerged in his culture of disease that he thinks that every young person is down there with him.

        • Greg G.

          You didn’t answer the question. Do you ask young people about their sex lives and medical treatments? Do you just assume they don’t have any? But you assume everybody else does.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Look at aCW, so threadbare in his incompetent advocacy he starts attacking the messenger rather than providing a rational response.

        • Anri

          I’ve met a lot of young people and not one of them contracted STD’s because of their age.

          You quoted the report, I’m just reading the bits of it you don’t like an pointing them out to you. I’ve already apologized for actually reading what you’re quoting, I’m not going to again.

          Bisexual male sex partners (the “B” in the LGBT acronym). Stick with God’s plan: one man, one woman, united in matrimony, it’s disease free.

          Please quote the section of the report discussing the bisexuality of the male partners they were citing as a risk factor.

          (Spoiler: you can’t, because they didn’t. The report said that WSW were at greater risk from having male sex partners then not. Just that.)

          One must remember what brought on these homosexual desires.

          Your referenced report lists the marginalization as the cause for their increased health issues. Again, if you don;t like what a report says, you might wanna stop quoting it. There’s the (apparent) risk someone might read it for content.

          They were either raped as a child or grew up in a dysfunctional home.

          Citation sorely needed.

          It is nice to see that you only dishonestly mischaracterized my argument once – that’s progress. Maybe, with practice, you can stop doing so entirely.

          Regarding your “natural” rant: Anything to avoid talking about the health hazards of homosexuality ey?

          First of all, the entire first half of my post was about health risks. I know you read this, because you responded to it. So, pretending I’m not discussing it is just dishonest, which appears to be a pattern for you.

          Secondly, you’re using the term. Once more, if you don’t care for an aspect of something being discussed, don’t bring it up.

          It may come as a shock to you, but you aren’t empowered to regulate other people’s conversation any more than you are empowered to regulate their sex lives.

          I’m assuming you find the whole “thought I was lesbian” business unsupportable and embarrassing and you are therefore going to just pretend it never happened and hope it just goes away quietly.

          Lastly, Mass Resistance?
          Wowee, just scratching the surface on them is eye-opening.
          Campaigning against anti-bullying laws? Claiming the FBI actively recruits gay people to stay in bed (heh, so to speak) with the SPLC? That guy taking pictures of the schoolkids?

          Seriously, quote the “it’s not aliens” guy from the History Channel – he’s got more credibility.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Lastly: MassResistance. Refute the information in their book.
          Lesbian Sexual Practices and Disease

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I already did, above.

          You’re using a slanted conservative hate group that’s masquerading as a respected professional association:

          “The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a socially conservative advocacy group of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States. … ACPeds has been listed as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center for “pushing anti-LGBT junk science”.
          Members: 500 (estimated)
          American College of Pediatricians – Wikipedia

        • Anri

          Let’s take a look-see, shall we?

          Obviously, many lesbians were/are having sex with men or they would not be concerned about birth control and abortion….

          This is a vastly stupid statement, as evidenced by the fact that many men, including gay men, are concerned with access to birth control and abortion for women.

          It’s because they care about women. It’s possible – just possible – that whomever wrote that statement was dumb enough to believe it, but as they are capable of writing complete sentences, I suspect they were just being dishonest and pretending they couldn’t think of any reasons. Or ask someone. Like lesbians. Or women. Or, well, anyone.

          All of these studies show that as a group, many
          lesbian/bisexual women are exposed to the same health problems stemming from sex with men as are heterosexual women.

          Yes, no-one is saying else wise.

          But some of the men they are involved with may be “gay” or bisexual, further increasing these women’s risk of HIV and other STDs common to MSM.

          Please indicate your references for statistics that show that WSW have sex with bisexual men. Or out that claim as a dishonestly spurious claim. Your call.
          (This claim is made more than once on the page, and not linked to any statistical information anywhere.)

          Quoted statistic:

          5%-28% of WSW reporting male partners within the past year….

          Conclusion drawn:

          The public face of lesbian activism, however, denies this frequent sexual engagement with men.

          (emphasis added)
          Again, dumb or dishonest, I can’t tell.

          Lesbians and bisexual women as a group display higher incidence of psychological dysfunction: depression, anxiety, mood disorders, suicidal behaviors, etc.

          Your CDC link addressed this, I’ll remind you:

          Lesbians may experience chronic stress from discrimination. This stress is worse for women who need to hide their orientation as well as for lesbians who have lost important emotional support because of their orientation.
          Living with this stress can cause depression and anxiety.

          You didn’t care to share this little tidbit when sharing your links, and apparently neither did whomever wrote the page you linked to. Again, dumb or dishonest, can’t tell.

          In the Mental Health, Partner Abuse section, I did a search for your quoted phrasing and found what I presume to be the report you are drawing from. Here’s a quote:

          However, the effect of sexual minority status appears to have an even stronger influence on health and health risk factors. This effect may be attributable to the chronic minority stress experienced by gay and lesbian people, or it may also be a reflection of differences in family structure and the health advantages that partnership affords.

          There’s lots more like that, shall I continue?

          For the most part, the more “traditional” lesbian
          and bisexual women’s (WSW) sexual practices (e.g., tribadism, kissing, cunnilingus) are less risky than MSM practices.

          Frank admission that it’s not homosexuality that’s the issue, but risky sex practices. Incorrectly conflating the two makes the problem worse, not better, by disseminating wrong information.
          You wanna advocate safer sex? Great! I’m all for it!
          Telling people they have demons in them and that makes them want certain sexual things will not aid you in making that argument.

          Another CDC quote from your page:

          Few data are available on the risk for
          STDs conferred by sex between women, but transmission risk probably varies by the specific STD and sexual practice (e.g., oral-genital sex; vaginal or anal sex using hands, fingers, or penetrative sex items; and oral-anal sex).

          Note that this explicitly says that it’s not being gay or having gay sex that determines the risk of sexual behavior – it’s the specific sexual practice itself. This flies in the face of what you are claiming.

          Lastly, here’s the caption for your image at the bottom:

          The banner at the radical feminist website Feministing shows a female figure with her hand in the insertion position for vaginal or anal fisting.

          Ok, first of all, that image is a woman flipping you off. I’ll provide a link if you’re unfamiliar with the gesture. Again, I have trouble believing that someone capable of putting together a functional HTML document wouldn’t know what they were looking at, but I guess I’m still not sure about dumb/dishonest here.

          I looked over the Feministing website and can’t find that banner image anywhere. I might just be missing it, so if you could include a screenshot with it highlighted or something, I’d appreciate it.
          Also, the second link is a 404. You can include that actual link here, if you like. If it exists.

          Have you noticed that your posts have gotten shorter and shorter as you get called out on more and more bullshit? That’s not a coincidence.

          Next time, I’d suggest sparing yourself the public humiliation and just not posting in the first place. But that’s just me.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Sorry, but I bore easy with LGBT propaganda (I don’t waste my time reading your entire posts so keep them short and to the point).
          If you need information about lesbians (the “L” in the LGBTetc.etc.etc. acronym), we can talk about MassResistance’s book on health hazards of homosexuality.
          How about we start off by talking about “fisting” (no Kevin Jennings, ramming your fist up another guys ass isn’t just for homosexual males, lesbians do it too).

        • Anri

          (I don’t waste my time reading your entire posts so keep them short and to the point)

          Well, I do admire consistency. Clearly, you don’t read the sources you’re linking to, either.
          Candidly, were I in your shoes, I wouldn’t read my posts either. I hate feeling stupid. Especially on a public forum.

          If you need information about lesbians…

          I have a decent bit of info about lesbians. Mostly derived from talking with, being around, and reading about lesbians. Novel concept, I know.

          How about we start off by talking about “fisting”…

          Well, it’s not my thing, but nothing fascinates the prurient like those things they consider anathema. In my experience, your average gay person doesn’t spend half the time a conservative theist does talking about gay sex.

        • Yes, CW does obsess about homosexual sex. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          A beautiful fisk, if I may say so…

        • lady_black

          And, I’ve known women who were married to one man and sleeping only with their husbands, who acquired STIs, including my former sister-in-law! Their husbands gave them STIs, you fucking ignorant moral scold!
          Marriage is not some magical amulet that wards off disease. You are an idiot!

        • aCultureWarrior

          So your brother was an adulterer who most likely slept with prostitutes (moral depravity seems to run in your family). BTW, Jesus approves of her divorcing him.
          Matthew 19:3-12

        • lady_black

          Who gives a fuck what Jeebus approves of. Nobody asked him.

        • No Christian sins, so therefore STDs are only in non-Christians? You may want to recheck that.

        • TheNuszAbides

          i think it has to involve True Scotsman sex to count.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Doesn’t matter.

          YOUR KIND claim that marriage makes everything right, good, and SAFE.

          Why did the innocent *wife* get an STD if YOUR KIND were correct and your idiot hateful superstition was true?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          REAL sexual deviance is prying into matters between two consenting adults who are taking proper precautions.

          But you authoritarian fuckers JUST CAN’T STOP, can you?

          (Oh, and before you start throwing around accusations of child molestation again, be aware that MOST child molesters are HETEROsexual males. In the US, mostly *white* HETEROsexual males.)

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          STDs *specifically*, you waffling puckered asshole!

        • Otto

          No one gives a fuck what you want…just because you worship a bigot doesn’t mean other people care to.

        • restore decency to this once great country

          That reminds me—I never understood MAGA. What does the “again” refer to? What time period was America’s zenith that you’re trying to return us to? Back to when the blacks and the fags and the women knew their place, I’m guessing?

        • aCultureWarrior

          It must eat you up inside Bob that Donald Trump is a LGBT ally.

        • No idea what that means.

        • lady_black


        • aCultureWarrior

          Yes it’s true. In an interview with the homosexual periodical “The Advocate”, your rainbow flag waving ally stated that he believed that sexual orientation should be protected under the 1964 Civil Rights Act. As owner of the Miss Universe Pageant your LGBT ally overruled the pageant board and allowed a genitally mutilated man pretending to be a woman to compete in the pageant. Rainbow flag waver Donald Trump also spoke out against the common sense North Carolina ‘bathroom bill’ and even invited then transvestite/transgender activist Bruce/”Caitlyn” Jenner to use the women’s restroom at Trump Tower.

          There’s so much more to your orange haired ally’s homosexual activism, just ask and I’ll gladly share it with you.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower


          We get it.

          You’re outraged.

          Society ISN’T, and you fucking losers won’t have the decency to either shut up or die, but we’re NOT giving you the authoritarian power you martyrbate to back.

          Deal with it.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Do you hurt yourself regularly turning on a dime like that, when shown what a fuckup you are and fleeing that *particular* field?

        • Otto

          Orwell would be so proud of your ability to redefine terms for your own agenda. Well done.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Attempting to define true love to a homosexual is like trying to explain what sunlight looks like to a sewer rat (my apologies to the sewer rats of the world for putting them in an analogy with homosexuals).

        • Otto

          Yes true love is you demanding other people conform to your God’s will…why can’t everyone understand that? They just need to do what you would say and everything would be better.


        • aCultureWarrior

          I’m sorry that you were molested as a child Otto and hence contracted homosexual desires because of it, but please, don’t hold it against God, as He can help you with your pain and misery.
          And Otto, don’t go sharing you and your boyfriend of the minute/hour/day/week (a whole week with the same guy? That’s a long term relationship in the LGBT community) sex toys with others.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          You keep on projecting.

          Look, your fucked up upbringing is YOUR problem, so with a nod to The Eagles, Get Over It

        • Otto

          Fuck you are just a dumb ass. I am not gay, but gay people don’t threaten me like they obviously threaten you. It must be terrifying walking down the street afraid to catch gay cooties but not knowing who has them. If your insecurity wasn’t so destructive to others it would be absolutely adorable and entertaining.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Trying to demand that there be such a think as ‘true’ love that only you and YOUR KIND are allowed to define is the true perversion here.

    • ildi

      Don’t forget that the mouth is for eating, so you’d better not be using it for pervy things like kissing.

    • ildi

      You also better not have engaged in any titty-nuzzling – that’s strictly for feeding babies. Are you a baby? I didn’t think so.

      • aCultureWarrior

        This is over your head, but for others that might be interested about the marriage bed and how it’s undefiled.

        • ildi

          Yahweh/Jesus created body parts for their pure original intent, not to satisfy your mouth-kissing-tiddy-sucking deviant lusts. Were you insufficiently breast-fed that you still have these unnatural urges? Do not let yourself be led astray from the undefiled act of penis in vagina for the holy purpose of procreation. You must get hard without any touching of your dingus because that’s masturbation. All else is the temptation of Satan.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Sigh, the lengths homosexuals will go to to justify buggery, i.e. if it’s ok for a man to kiss a woman, it must be ok for a guy to pork another guy in the poop chute.
          This insanity won’t last forever ildi, we’ll get you the help that you so desperately need and have been crying out for sometime soon.

        • ildi

          Methinks the deviant doth protest too much… let go of your sinful cravings, that’s no way to honor God’s creation! No difference between functions, think about the saliva coating the food that is being masticated to a pulp, your tongue goes in there, you sicko?

        • aCultureWarrior
        • Jack Baynes, Sandwichmaker

          Homosexuals don’t do anything that heterosexuals don’t.

        • aCultureWarrior

          We call those that shove their fist up an orifice “perverts”, you call them “allies”.

        • Jack Baynes, Sandwichmaker

          Why didn’t they just call the page “things perverts do”?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          YOUR KIND don’t get to decide what other consenting adults do. You can whine and natter on about how you hate it, but you’ve lost the power to force people to live by your hateful superstitious meme.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          ‘Family Research Institute’ is just a bunch of Liars for Jebus™ with an axe to grind.

          Try REAL peer-reviewed and frequently *cited* scholarship.

        • lady_black

          So, if you’re married, and you want to watch porn, it must be recordings of you and your wife?

        • Jack Baynes, Sandwichmaker

          you want to put a urine-spigot in a vagina? That’s disgusting!

        • Thus sayeth the Lord: save for yourselves the virgins in a tribe you genocide.

        • lady_black

          Then why do you want to keep people from marrying?

        • aCultureWarrior

          I truly am amazed how you rainbow flag wavers HATE God and everything that He stands for but for some reason want to be a part of the institution that He created for one man and one woman. But then destroying things comes natural for the LGBT movement doesn’t it?

        • lady_black

          I do not hate “god.” One cannot hate something one doesn’t believe exists. I don’t hate leprechauns, unicorns, or the Easter Bunny, either.
          MAN created marriage. Marriage is the province of government, and always has been.

        • Jack Baynes, Sandwichmaker

          What institution are you talking about? Not marriage, obviously. Marriage is older than your god.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Oh my, an atheist is going to give me a lesson on how the world was created and how man decided on his own that the traditional family via marriage, is the nucleus of society.
          Explain away Jacko.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Try archaeology.

          There are civilizations OLDER than your Bronze-age goat-buggering superstition, with written records discussing marriage.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I *truly* am amazed at how quickly YOUR KIND will change the subject when it becomes obvious that your chosen tactics don’t help but actually HURT the topic under discussion.

    • Otto

      #17 This may be hard for you. Not for a lot of people.
      #18 You should stop behaving like an asshat than.
      # 19 You should ask somebody that has actually studied the matter, in fact don’t just rely on one expert, go look at the consensus of all the experts and you will find your opinion on the matter to be viewed in the same way we view it. You are full of shit.
      #20 I would rather call you a pin headed bigot, because that fits the evidence much better than old fashioned.

      • aCultureWarrior

        #17: Not a lot of people will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Matthew 7:13
        #18: Homosexuality in ancient Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
        #19: Find that ‘gay’ gene yet? Like I said: Ask any EX homosexual, and they’ll tell you that they contracted their same sex desires due to traumatic experiences as a child (raped by a homosexual elder, being bullied by a absent or distant father, etc.) Heck, ask a proud and unrepentant homosexual for that matter:
        #20 Repeat after me Bruce: “The anus is NOT meant to be a sex toy.” Keep repeating it until you get it right.

        • Otto

          #17 Oh but you have it all figured out…good for you. What a special boy you are.
          #18 Because Rome is the only place that counts…right. Fuck you are dumb.
          #19 Because only the experiences of EX gay people count…you gotta throw out all the information that contradicts what you already believe. More idiocy.
          #20 Yes I am well aware you are probably so sexually repressed there is only one way to do it, no fingers, no oral, missionary position only. People like you are quite often the most perverted.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Me thinkz that Otto didn’t like the video of liquored up homosexuals admitting that they were molested as children and that homosexuality is a choice.

        • Otto

          Me thinks bone head believes anecdote = data.


        • BlackMamba44

          aCultureWarrior just (well, 12 days ago) admitted that he chose to be straight.

        • Otto

          That makes a lot of sense, gay and bisexual men often have to ‘choose’ that option.

        • BlackMamba44

          Yeah, this dude is deep into Narnia.

        • Greg G.

          He doesn’t act straight. He acts like he is in the closet hoping nobody figures it out.

        • 17: I know, right? God the perfect teacher can’t get more than 50% of his class to graduate. (Maybe if he showed up more … ?)

          19: why expect a gay gene? And why ask ex-homosexuals (whatever they are)? I suggest you ask homosexuals who were bullied into self-loathing, tried for years or decades to deny who they are, and realize that they’re healthier being themselves.

        • lady_black

          No one is going to heaven. There is no such place.

    • Jack Baynes, Sandwichmaker

      #17 Too be fair, it’s pretty hard to keep both of Jesus’s 2 greatest commandments when Loving God requirs murdering some of your neighbors
      #18 We’re trying to get Trump out of the office to prevent that
      #20 Why can’t it be both? The penis is made for expelling human waste and for sex. Many heterosexuals also enjoy backdoor loving.

      • aCultureWarrior

        #17:There’s more than enough death (even murder, predominately done by another homosexual) in the LGBT so-called “community”, you poor lost souls needs people to show you a way out of it.
        #18: I too am trying to get rainbow flag waver Donald Trump out of office and put someplace safe where he can’t hurt others or himself: a mental institution.
        #20 The efforts you homosexuals go to justify buggery. No wonder you’re still riddled with disease.

        • Jack Baynes, Sandwichmaker

          I just wouldn’t want anyone accusing you of being a hypocrite by complaining about one exit for human waste being used in sex while you happy make use of a different exit for human waste in sex.

        • aCultureWarrior

          Lil Jack better go back to 9th grade biology class to learn about the birds and the bees.

        • Jack Baynes, Sandwichmaker

          If I’m not trying to have any more children, the birds and the bees aren’t important, are they?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Sounds like you’re dodging again, as usual.

          You’re really pathetic at this…just in case you hadn’t been aware…

        • lady_black

          This has nothing to do with birds or bees. Unless you’re into animal abuse.

    • lady_black

      Nothing a little soap and water won’t clean away.
      But, tell us something. Why do you obsess so much about what other people do with their genitals? Do you have a voyeuristic fetish or something? Satisfy your curiosity. It’s no big deal.

      • aCultureWarrior

        I know that this sounds….ahem…queer to you lady black, but not everyone in the world is or stands up for perversion.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower


          YOUR KIND don’t get to determine what’s acceptable in society.

          Otherwise, you’d be out playing Inquisitor rather than whining pitifully and spitefully around here.

        • Otto

          I am sure you have the same position on perversion that Ted Haggard does… in airport bathrooms.

        • aCultureWarrior

          I bet that you’ve seen more than your fair share of pubic restroom gloryholes Otto.

        • Someone is well versed in homosexual practice.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          And ‘wide stances’.

        • lady_black

          LOL @ “pubic restrooms.”

        • aCultureWarrior

          An appropriate typo ey? Can you believe it that part of LGBT ‘culture’ is to have sex (anonymous at that) in places where people expel human waste? Pretty sick huh?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Imagine what would happen if YOUR KIND didn’t demonize LGBTQ people so they could simply live their lives without being furtive?!?

          You DO realize, you insufferable idiot, that what you said was an own goal, with YOUR KIND’s attempt to demonize people causing the furtiveness you’re attempting to condemn?

        • Otto

          You seem to know more lingo than I do…I bet your internet search history is very interesting. And you feel so guilty you have to attempt to project it onto others.

        • aCultureWarrior

          I worked a vice detail quite a few years back and saw the “culture” that you not only defend, but most likely partake in.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I believe that as much as I believe anything you’ve said, which is to say, NOT AT ALL.

          You’re to be trusted only in your fear & hatred, as amply demonstrated here.

        • Otto

          Oh…a bigoted cop. Yeah I have met a few of those. Thankfully most cops are better than that.

        • lady_black

          Whatever floats your boat, is what I always say!

  • Thanks4AllTheFish

    I’m not sure but I think it was David Letterman who when asked about gay marriage said, Let them get married. Why should gay people have it any better than the rest of us?

    • lady_black

      That was pretty much my sentiments. Just kidding. I’ve been happily married for 31 years. I also divorced my way out of a miserable marriage. Key take-away: Sometimes, it just doesn’t work out.

      • Thanks4AllTheFish

        I’m still working on my first marriage – 49 years in March.

        …sometimes it seems longer. 😉