Stupid Arguments Christians Should Avoid #50: The Argument from Biblical Consistency

Stupid Arguments Christians Should Avoid #50: The Argument from Biblical Consistency February 17, 2020

If you’ve read much apologetic commentary, you’ve seen this one: the story in the Bible is marvelously consistent despite it being composed of 66 separate books. From 40 authors from all walks of life. In 3 languages. From 3 continents. In different literary genres. Over 1500 years. No, not marvelously consistent—supernaturally consistent! Praise the Lord.

But poke at this argument, and it unravels quickly.

The Christian claim

We’ll start with claims for the Bible’s consistency in apologists’ own words.

The Bible is comprised of 66 Books written over a period of about 1,500 years by over 40 authors from all walks of life, with different kinds of personalities, and in all sorts of situations. It was written in three languages on three continents, and it covers hundreds of controversial subjects. Yet, it fits together into one cohesive story with an appropriate beginning, a logical ending, a central character, and a consistent theme. (Source)

The unity of Scripture demonstrates its supernatural inspiration. Only the one true, holy God could provide us with such a flawless Bible that reveals such a matchless message: the Lord’s staggering love for His creation. (Source)

One of the remarkable features of the Bible is its magnificent continuity. This is because God Himself is the source of the Bible. (Source)

Wow—this sounds like the sycophantic praise North Koreans give their various Great, Dear, and Brilliant leaders. But it’s simply wrong.

Problem 1: the Bible isn’t consistent

In the first place, no, the Bible isn’t consistent. Not even close: the Bible says that Christians sin and that they don’t, that God can’t be seen and that he can, and that works save and that only faith saves. There are two incompatible Ten Commandments, there are two creation stories, and there are two Flood stories.

It can’t get Jesus’s genealogy straight. It’s unclear who the disciples should evangelize. It contradicts itself about whether people deserve punishment for their ancestors’ sins or not. “God is love,” and yet he demands genocide and drowns the world. It says that Satan works for God and then says that he’s God’s enemy. It admits that there are many gods and then says that Yahweh is the only one. The epistles of Paul don’t say the same thing as the gospels, and the gospels don’t even agree with each other. Jesus is wrong about the timing of the End.

And then there are the contradictions about the crucifixion and resurrection. What day was Jesus crucified on? Who brought the spices? Did the women spread the word about the resurrection? The 45,000 Christian denominations show the result of the ambiguity.

Christian apologists will say that these aren’t contradictions, but they agree that they’re apparent contradictions. Consider these book titles that attempt to seal the leaking dike: The Big Book of Bible Difficulties, The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, Hard Sayings of the Bible, and Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible. These books admit to at least apparent contradictions in a Bible that they say is supernaturally consistent. No omniscient god would create a Bible with contradictions of any sort, apparent or actual, and a Bible full of apparent contradictions that needs weighty books with rationalizing excuses isn’t consistent. More.

You might be able to sidestep a contradiction by labeling an incident or story as allegory, but then you’ve lost any biblical authority. The authority now rests on the person who decides what can be taken literally and what must be allegorized.

The Bible’s canonization process

Some versions of this argument say something like, “When Moses sat down to write Genesis, how could he have known that all the future books would fit nicely together like jigsaw puzzle pieces? Only the hand of God explains this!” But of course the canonization process (the picking of the official books to include in the Bible) worked the other way around. They didn’t look from Moses forward but from their present backwards, picking books that fit with the consensus view as they understood it. The Marcionites, Gnostics, and others were considered heretics from the standpoint of the winners, and the books from the hundreds of candidates were the ones that best fit the Christianity of those winners. It’s odd to celebrate that these books fit well together when they were deliberately chosen to fit well together.

The canons of Christian sects don’t even agree. For example, the books of 3 and 4 Maccabees are included in the Georgian Orthodox Bible, and Tobit and Judith are included in the Roman Catholic Bible, but none of these books are included in the Protestant Bible. “Magnificent continuity” is apparently in the eye of the beholder.

And, as noted in the previous section, these books don’t fit particularly well together. Each individual book was written to serve the purposes of that author, and those purposes varied. The books of the Bible are asked to do what they were never written to do—be consistent. For example, it would make no sense to scold the author of one gospel for telling a different (and contradictory) story from that in another gospel when he had no goal to tell the same story. He was giving his message, not writing a news article.

No, Jesus isn’t on every page of the Bible

Another popular Christian claim is that Jesus is on every page of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. But if that’s the case, Jews should be an important authority, since the Christian Old Testament is their scripture. And since Jewish scholars haven’t converted, they obviously reject this argument.

Arguing that their bias prevents them from seeing Jesus can be turned around with just as much authority, and now the Christian’s bias is the obstacle to an honest assessment.

When you look at the Bible, the stories it tells are about a lot more than Jesus. In just the Pentateuch (the first five books), we get a just-so story that explains creation. Then God gets annoyed and destroys the world in a flood. Then God promises a great people to Abraham. Then God gives the Promised Land to Moses. Each of these stories reaches a conclusion, and a The End could plausibly wrap up each one. None is about Jesus.

After more adventures of a small country in a dangrous world, we get Jesus in the New Testament. The Christians will tell you that now you can say The End. They will explain these repeated reboots of the story by appealing to progressive revelation—God apparently dribbles out his perfect message over time. But this cuts both ways, and Muslims will tell you that that process continued, and only after adding the Quran can you say The End. And the Mormons tell you that only after adding the Book of Mormon can you say The End. And every cult leader and reincarnation of Jesus will say the same thing.

Concluded in part 2 with a challenge to the skeptic.

Related articles:

That first moment a Christian realizes
he’s wrong about something,
that Christian is going to wonder exactly what else
his onetime hero is wrong about.
(Spoiler: Everything.)
All it takes is one realization
that one thing is drastically in error,
just one brick removed to start the Jenga tower shaking
like the mythic Walls of Jericho themselves.
— Captain Cassidy, Roll to Disbelieve blog

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Image from Andrew Ridley, CC license
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  • Cozmo the Magician

    ohhh, i LOVE this idea. Lets see who I can prove i divinity based on this.

    O.K. eeezy Peezy. George R.R. Martin MUST be GOD. Because his ‘Wild Cards’ series of books were written by authors all over the world at different times. And yet the stories all agree, and share characters and places. And the stories have morals and teach lessons. And so we should make kids read George R.R. Martin in school to prevent bad things happening.

    Or… Star Trek is the absolute Word of God. Because sooo many authors all over the world have written stories about the Heroes of the Federation. So kids in school must watch at least one episode of Star Trek each day (But NOT Enterprise, that ‮dekcus‬ and was created by the debil).

    Or.. We must all worship Penthouse, because the letters come from all over the world all tell similar stories.. “You are not going to BELIEVE this.. but…”

    Yeah, this game is FUN!

  • Ficino

    From 3 continents.

    Written on three continents? Which books of the Bible were written in Africa? Or do the apologists by “from” mean that Moses was from Egypt?

    • epicurus

      Maybe they are thinking of Moses writing part of Exodus in Egypt?

    • Greg G.

      Maybe this is what their thinking is:

      https://www.biblestudy.org/maps/books-of-the-bible.html

      • Meurig ap Gweirydd

        That reference claims that Matthew was the first of the gospels written, and that it was written starting in 35 CE, so that’s BS for a starter. Saul of Tarsus was the first author of anything New Testament, and the first Gospel written down was Mark and that was no earlier than after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple, and very likely a good deal later. They can’t even keep their lies consistent!

        • Greg G.

          I tend to roll my eyes when somebody put that much work and study into a project like that without understanding that Paul didn’t write all the epistles with his name on them.

        • Meurig ap Gweirydd

          Paul maybe wrote 7 out of them, and then there’s the complete frauds called Peter 1&2 and Timothy 1&2.

    • larry parker

      Everyone knows the bible was written in N. America.

      • Michael Neville

        No, that was the Book of Mormon. The real Bible, the King James Version, was written in England using the King’s Jacobean English.

      • “In the 1920s, while barring the teaching of foreign languages, Texas governor Miriam ‘Ma’ Ferguson picked up a Bible and famously declared, ‘If English was good enough for Jesus Christ, it’s good enough for Texas.’”

        • larry parker

          Just read her bio on wiki. Interesting.

        • Yes, interesting. It also debunks the attribution of that quote to her.

      • Ignorant Amos

        In English.

    • Isn’t Alexandria, Egypt is a candidate for one of the gospels?

  • epicurus

    I don’t think most Christians even know there are something like 35 gospels that didn’t make it into the Bible.

    • Bob Jase

      I’d bet most Christians can’t name the gospels that did make it.

      • Zeta

        BJ: “I’d bet most Christians can’t name the gospels that did make it.

        I am reposting old news (but should still be relevant) from 2016.

        “The Scandal of Biblical Illiteracy: It’s Our Problem”
        https://albertmohler.com/2016/01/20/the-scandal-of-biblical-illiteracy-its-our-problem-4/
        Dr. Albert Mohler is a theologian and ordained minister, and serves as president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.

        Some highlights:

        1. Fewer than half of all adults can name the four gospels.
        2. 60 percent of Americans can’t name even five of the Ten Commandments.
        3. At least 12 percent of adults believe that Joan of Arc was Noah’s wife!
        4. Another survey of graduating high school seniors revealed that over 50 percent thought that Sodom and Gomorrah were husband and wife!
        5. A considerable number of respondents to one poll indicated that the Sermon on the Mount was preached by Billy Graham.

        • 1. Fewer than half of all adults can name the four gospels.

          But they can (or could) sing the Big Mac jingle.

        • Lark62

          I can sing the Big Mac jingle.

          I taught my kids the Big Mac jingle.

          I’m sure they have barely heard of the gospels and couldn’t name them.

          Life is good.

        • At least Big Macs exist.

        • Greg G.

          Remember Ralph Cramden (Jackie Gleason) on The Honeymooners? He got his start in bus driving by driving a school bus on Sesame Street.

          His first stop, a little girl got on and said, “My name is Pat and I only eat beef.”

          At his second stop, another little girl got on and said, “My name is Patricia and I only eat beef.”

          At the next stop, a boy got on and said, “I’m Ross and I’m special!”

          At the next stop, another boy got on and said, “I’m Lester Cleese.” Then he took off his shoes. Ralph asked him what he was doing. He replied, “I’m picking the dead skin off my bunions.”

          Ralph said, “So we have two all-beef Patty’s, special Ross, Lester Cleese picking bunions on the Sesame Street bus!”

        • flexilis

          ouch

        • Lark62

          I upvoted, but it’s a down vote in spirit.

        • Greg G.

          My apologies. Please ex-pun-ge this from your memory.

        • Lark62

          Your wits is my command.

        • I thought it was Hugh Hefner who taught us how to mount…

      • I know that John was one of them. And Paul, I think.

        Were the others Ringo and George?

      • Ignorant Amos

        Back in 2012, Richard Dawkins employed IPSO MORi to poll a group who had declared themselves as Christian on the national census.

        Religious and Social Attitudes of UK Christians in 2011

        One of the questions was…

        Q23. What is the first book of the NEW Testament?

        The answers back your assertion up to the hilt.

        Matthew 35%
        Genesis 19%
        Acts of the Apostles 3%
        Psalms 3%
        Don’t know 39%
        Prefer not to say 1%

        Some of the other figures are also fascinating.

        https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/files/migrations/en-uk/files/Assets/Docs/Polls/ipsos-mori-religious-and-social-attitudes-topline-2012.pdf

        I’d bet the same poll done today would produce even more radical results.

        • Greg G.

          Apparently that was a multiple choice question with four options. It seems that 12% of them just picked at random. That leaves 16% of them who didn’t know the difference between Old Testament and New Testament and guessed wrong which implies an equal number guessed right. So about 17% actually knew the right answer, at least after hearing the name as an option. Compared to the 40% who couldn’t or wouldn’t even take a guess after hearing he correct answer in a list.

        • TheNuszAbides

          Just to prove that The Atheist has ‘kick me’ inscribed on the back of its heart, eh?

          Your benighted godfulnesslessness hides The Truth: the 1% who “prefer not to say” knew better than to cast the pearl of Secret Mark before just any old swine who ended up casting their beady eyes on the test results.

          EDIT: corrected moronic autocorrection

    • Plus other texts as Peter’s Apocalypse.

      • epicurus

        Yes, there are several apocalypses, and lots of epistles as well that didn’t make it in.

    • It’s usually assumed by believers who do know that the remaining gospels are later (I have no good idea whether there’s any support for this). But I think it also becomes something of a weirdness competition: This or that gospel contains things that are too weird and must be legendary developments (Gospel of Peter walking cross), or presents a Jesus they don’t like / is inconsistent with the Jesus of the currently accepted gospels (Infancy gospels with young Jesus killing people, Gospel of Philip having Jesus kissing Mary (?) ). As far as I’m concerned, this is already a problem, because the “accepted” gospels already show clear signs of legendary development and weird stories (Zombie uprising, anyone?). It just doesn’t cut it to say “Well, those gospels over there are even weirder, so we should accept virgin birth and resurrection as proven facts because they’re not as weird”.

      • epicurus

        Yes, good point (s).

      • Ignorant Amos

        The Gospel of Thomas may predate the canonical gospels, it’s certainly seen as contemporary with them by scholars.

        The recently recovered Gospel of Judas is second century, so contemporary with other NT books. That certainly sets the cat among the pigeons.

        Stuff that didn’t toe the party line was declared heretical and destroyed.

        Bart Ehrman outlines the issues in “Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew” and “Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It Into the New Testament”.

        • Greg G.

          Ehrman uses proto-Thomas as a piece of evidence for the historical Jesus.

          There are several parables in Mark 4 that correspond with sayings from the Gospel of Thomas, which could be explained by a proto-Thomas. But there are several sayings in the 60s that correspond to stories from Luke. Which would mean that what Mark had was not the final Thomas, if Mark used that.

          But then, that may have been from the less well-known Aesop’s Parables, or something like that.

        • TheNuszAbides

          Stuff that didn’t toe the party line

          I would rather say “stuff that didn’t convert the optimal spread of patrons/matrons”.

    • NSAlito

      I like the variety of Gospels of Peter mentioned in Bart Ehrman’s Forged.

    • Greg G.

      What makes you think an omnipotence could inspire 39 gospels? Isn’t it obvious that an omnipotence would have to inspire exactly four gospels, no more, no less. What part of Irenaeus do you not understand? //s

      • epicurus

        But, but, if god only inspired four, then that means Christians were making stuff up in the others! Imagine – Christians making stuff up about Jesus – Inconceivable!

      • epicurus

        I picture the Count from Sesame Street at the end of Irenaeus’ air tight reasoning “Four! Ha Ha Ha”

  • koseighty

    There were hundreds of “inspired” books that didn’t make it into cannon. And dozens of gospels.

    The Bible is an anthology. Someone(s) chose out a selection of books that met their criteria. As pointed out, different groups chose out different collections of books.

    Do you look at an anthology of time travel stories and stand in awe that each and every author — across decades and continents — wrote about time travel? My god(!) how is that possible?!? Only (my) god could explain an anthology like that!

    • Bob Jase

      And most of those time travel stories mention/feature real persons & places so they must be true.

    • That’s “canon”, not “cannon”, although I am in favor of “cannonizing” the bible.

      • koseighty

        D’oh!

  • Lex Lata

    Of course, an internally consistent account of my great-great-great-grandmother’s flight from Ireland to Wisconsin in a tornado is no more likely to be true than a sloppy, contradictory retelling of her journey. Even if the Bible had Hitchcock-level continuity–and it absolutely doesn’t, as you summarize, Bob–its miracle claims would be just as questionable.

    Antiquity and the Middle Ages offer any number of respectably consistent narratives chock full of omens, wonders, spirits, monsters, superpowers, and deities: the Iliad and Odyssey, the Táin Bó Cúailnge, Beowulf, the works of Pliny, Herodotus, Plutarch, and other giants of classical scholarship. Etc. Etc. Etc. Yet few, if any, modern Christians accept those supernatural elements as real.

    If narrative continuity and unity are reliable indicators of the truth of miracle claims, intellectual rigor demands Christians apply that same reasoning to non-biblical writings. Anything else is special pleading.

    • eric

      If narrative continuity and unity are reliable indicators of the truth of miracle claims, intellectual rigor demands Christians apply that same reasoning to non-biblical writings. Anything else is special pleading.

      Consistency is not one of their hobgoblins.

    • Jim Jones

      ‘God’ should have hired J. K. Rowling to write the bible for him. She wrote the Harry Potter books on her own with a tiny fraction of the contradictions and errors of the bible.

      • Rowling is clearly supernatural.

      • Michael Murray

        I imagine by book three or four it must have driven her editorial team mad knowing that there were thousands a fans out there who would spot any inconsistency.

      • Ignorant Amos

        But Harry Potter is based on a real person, so the story of the boy wizard saving humanity from the dark Lord, must be true. Amarite?.

    • Either that or claim they were works of Satan and demons posing as other gods, etc.

    • Meurig ap Gweirydd

      To be fair, there is actual evidence of a Bronze Age conflagration in the city of Troy now it’s been found and excavated, so that’s one myth that’s slightly less mythical now.

      • Lex Lata

        Right, but the discovery of the ruins of Troy is evidence for the existence of a 99.44% bulletproof demigod named Achilles to the same extent archaeological remains in Memphis are evidence for the Red Sea miracle. 🙂

        • Michael Neville

          Memphis? What does Elvis have to do with the parting of the Red Sea?

        • Lex Lata

          You might be surprised by the links Elvis has to ancient Egypt.

          https://youtu.be/pa9331xmvhg

    • rationalobservations?
  • sandy

    I’ve always thought that part of the christian con started with putting the Gospels first then followed by the Epistles in the New Testament when they were written (Paul’s) chronologically, the other way around. They had to be arranged and told that way or they wouldn’t have made sense or at least raised some serious questions about the validity of the Jesus story.

    • koseighty

      Just as putting Matthew first among the gospels puts the virgin birth front and center.

      If they had put Mark first (the first written), the absence of said birth would be glaring.

      • sandy

        Yes. A complete manipulation of the chronological writings to “sell” the story. Unfortunately, I’ve never had the opportunity to point this out to my Christian friends to hear their explanation as to why the stories are compiled out of chronological order. My guess is they will tell me they are in order.

  • Norman Parron

    I couldn’t care less even if the story was TOTALLY consistent as look at all the present fan fiction that is much more consistent than the buyBull and is not real!! So EVIDENCE that what is in there is real…crickets!

  • BertB

    It’s futile, Bob. Nonbelievers have been pointing out all the inconsistencies, distortions, outright contradictions and factual errors for centuries…when they dared to. A helluva lot of them were executed, burned at the stake, stoned to death or any other grisly punishment those kind and loving Christians could think of. In that respect, at least, we are fortunate that they just ignore us now. We will never change their minds, but at least we can inform ourselves…and maybe tip the balance for some “fence sitters” who are tentative believers with some doubts. That’s what motivates me, anyway, to keep writing and posting stuff here.

    • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

      Galileo said it best: “Eppur si muove” (but still it moves)

      Eventually, telling the truth *does* break through…just ask any of the folks who escaped religion after watching / calling shows like The Atheist Experience, DarkMatter2525, etc.

    • Ignorant Amos

      We will never change their minds,…

      I wouldn’t say never. Those issues you’ve listed have been instrumental in leading some believers outta faith.

    • rationalobservations?

      “We will never change their minds…”
      The third largest and fastest growing human demographic relating to religion are the godless nonreligious and many of us of an older generation did come from a religionist background but did “change our minds” if we ever did truly embrace the superstitions and outrageous myths and legends.
      One of the world’s leading bible experts Bart Ehrman is an agnostic/atheist but was a born again Bible-believing Evangelical until he recognised in incongruity of the christian mythology that was perhaps consolidated when he read the original 4th century Greek language texts and noticed thousands of discrepancies.

      Many of the millennial generation currently may be paying lip service to their parents delusions but privately disown, shun and ridicule all such superstition and the decline of religion accelerates exponentially according to both polls ans surveys and the actual attendance figures published by the major brands of religion.

      Even if the most die-hard religionists today will not be educated out of their god delusions, they dwindle in number and will mostly die without replacement and their businesses of religion will die with them – as is already happening in the predominantly godless and secular UK. This is true even in non-christian totalitarian theocracies where atheism is a capital offence. The “Arab Spring” may have been brutally crushed but those millennials who still yearn for freedom educated and peaceful western style secular democracy may only be awaiting the death of their oppressors..?

      https://i0.wp.com/restlesspilgrim.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Sinai.jpg?w=960&ssl=1

  • Bob Jase

    But the bible is 100% consistent if you know how to read it, it will also agree with you 100% oddly enough.

    • Magic! What more proof do you need that the Bible is divine?

    • Ignorant Amos

      Indeed.

      I posted this elsewhere, but it seems apt for this thread too.

      That’s the problem with the buybull, it’s such a Rorschach Inkblot Test. Something even Christers agree on.

      Interpretation is so subjective. And it ranges between the sublime and the ridiculous. Christers have used it to defend everything from slavery, to Trumps right to take out Kim Jong-un. Whose got the right interpretation has been the reason for trouble and strife throughout the ages.

      “I have long thought that any thinking person would see the Bible as a Rorschach Test, an opportunity for projection. Let me share my projection: It is often claimed that if Jesus were here today he would likely not be a Christian and would disavow much done in his name.”

      Such an ambiguous set of books by a so-called perfect multi-omni entity…I think not.

      “We know because there are over 30,000 denominations of Christianity. Gay is good or bad, abortion good or bad, cracker really Jesus or symbology, handle snakes or not, speak in tongues or not, Disney is evil or not, evolution or not, women can talk or not, cut hair or not, shave or not, cars or horse buggys, pope or the other pope, self-flagellation or not, etc ad nauseum. But every one of these groups has the exact same book. Same book, 30,000 different answers. This is not a clear instruction book. This is not a clear moral book. This is not a clear…. ANYTHING book. It is a mess of contradictory stories, tribal wars, and ancient morality that has been sold as a divinely inspired work.”

  • Jim Jones

    “One of the most amazing and perplexing features of mainstream Christianity is that seminarians who learn the historical-critical method in their Bible classes appear to forget all about it when it comes time for them to be pastors. They are taught critical approaches to Scripture, they learn about the discrepancies and contradictions, they discover all sorts of historical errors and mistakes, they come to realize that it is difficult to know whether Moses existed or what Jesus actually said and did, they find that there are other books that were at one time considered canonical but that ultimately did not become part of Scripture (for example, other Gospels and Apocalypses), they come to recognize that a good number of the books of the Bible are pseudonymous (for example, written in the name of an apostle by someone else), that in fact we don’t have the original copies of any of the biblical books but only copies made centuries later, all of which have been altered. They learn all of this, and yet when they enter church ministry they appear to put it back on the shelf. For reasons I will explore in the conclusion, pastors are, as a rule, reluctant to teach what they learned about the Bible in seminary.”

    ― Bart D. Ehrman, Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible & Why We Don’t Know About Them

  • RichardSRussell

    The Bible is comprised of 66 Books …

    Goddammit, this is one of my pet peeves. The word “comprise” means “consist of”, as in “An encyclopedia comprises many volumes.” The phrase “is comprised of” literally means “is consisted of of”. Better locutions would be “The Bible comprises 66 books”, “The Bible consists of 66 books”, “The Bible is constituted of 66 books”, or “The Bible is composed of 66 books.” Dang! It’s not as if there aren’t perfectly grammatical alternatives available.

    • Lord Backwater

      Except it isn’t even consistently 66.
      Books of the Bible

      Christian Bibles range from the 73 books of the Catholic Church canon, the 66 books of the canon of some denominations or the 80 books of the canon of other denominations of the Protestant Church, to the 81 books of the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church canon…

      • RichardSRussell

        Ha, I see how cleverly you worked the word “consist” into that. Well played!

      • Bob Jase

        And then there are the Mormon books, some people will believe anything.

      • In a former life I spent time in the open source Bible software development world (yes, it exists). I was a good literalist believing my Protestant canon was direct from God, and got in a lot of trouble when I talked casually about “non-canonical” works. I quickly learned my lesson. On the plus side, Bible software development meant I learnt various things about Bible scholarship that I wouldn’t have learned otherwise in a small and insular denomination, and I’m sure that contributed to my eventual deconversion.

    • Geoff Benson

      I picked up on that when I first read the article but didn’t like to comment lest it be seen as petty. I now announce to the world (well the bit that reads this) that I truly hate misuse of the word ‘comprise’. Thanks for helping me get this off my chest!

  • The “Jesus is all over the Bible” BS was claimed by one of the Fundies I know of. Meaning He was around when God drowned everyone and everything, in the OT massacres, and many other similar examples.

    And the above points without including why the OT God is so different (in theory) of the NT one (and more), evidences of tampering with the texts, the parts that are known to be forgeries, and the books that were left out of the original canon. This is why they say to read the Bible with the heart, not the mind.

    • Ignorant Amos

      So he must’ve been there when God was getting his share of the spoils of war, including the virgin girls as sex slaves and paedo rape child brides.

  • Lord Backwater

    The theology isn’t even consistent. I noted in a different blog the other day that the word “mystery” appears 22 times in teh Bible, every single one of them in the New Testament.

    Meanwhile, the Old Testament has very few references to Satan or “the Devil”. Satan shows up in Job as YHWH’s gambling buddy. “Devil” shows up in the OT mostly as a plural, indicating lower order demons. The singular Evil One is almost entirely restricted to the New Testament. Satan, the Devil and the Serpent of Genesis are not co-identified except in Revelation, which is the work of a madman. The OT also has very little mention of Heaven or Hell or eternal rewards and punishment. If YHWH didn’t like what you were doing, He would smite you in this life, not wait until you died of natural causes.

    • Lord Backwater
    • OT Satan is a servant of God (Book of Job), and I suspect that the one who tempts Jesus in the desert is the same. Also, it’s quite odd that when God punishes both Adam and Eve there’s no mention at all of either eternal life or damnation, nor foreshadowing of Jesus.

  • Carstonio

    There’s another huge reason why it’s a stupid argument. It makes the baseless assumption of a perfect deity. Even if the Bible were completely flawless and consistent, that still wouldn’t prove that a deity exists, perfect or otherwise.

  • Steve03

    What’s more, the Bible itself says it isn’t consistent. Hebrews 1:1 “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets.” The Greek for “in many ways” is polytropos — literally, “by many turnings” (It’s one of the epithets of Odysseus).

  • Johanan

    One of the examples for many to question is the story of Jonah. Even though the story is in three major religions’s scripture.
    In Luke 11, “As the crowds were increasing, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so the Son of Man will be a sign to this generation.”

    What is the sign of Jonah? Jonah is a picture of Jesus.

    He was thrown over the side of the ship to die. Jesus was nailed on the cross to die.
    He was in the belly of the giant fish for three days and three nights. Jesus died and was buried in a grave for three days and three nights.
    He was vomited out from the fish. Jesus resurrected from death.
    He went to the enemy city of Nineveh to preach salvation. Jesus’ spirit went forth to the hostile gentiles to preach the good news.
    The city of Nineveh was spared for the century. The kingdoms of the world will become the Kingdom of Heaven.
    But the Israel was not saved by Jonah. And Judah was not saved by Jesus at His first visitation.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b703022f99d0ee908188c93c184264f799f7c818b6ba1c0b741d4906ff23f8b1.jpg

    In fact, the kingdom of Judah, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans 40 years after Jesus left. So was Israel, the Northern kingdom destroyed by the Ninevites 40 years after Jonah. And Jonah grave mark was in Nineveh ruin until 2014.

    • Greg G.

      Jesus died and was buried in a grave for three days and three nights.

      According to the stories, Jesus was buried just before sundown which is when the sabbath day began. The women visited the tomb the first thing in the morning after the sabbath day. That is more like two nights and one day. If we are generous, maybe we count the short time after burial as a day and the short time after sunrise as a day to get three days, but there was no third night.

      The OT writings are not much different than other ancient Near East literature except the other writings are older than the Old Testament writings. Many of the ANE writings are known from the ruins of Babylonian libraries. There are no examples of the OT writings that predate the Babylonian Exile. It may be that the whole Israeli history was written in imitation and borrowing from the literature of Babylonian libraries during the Exile.

      Archaeological evidence from Egyptian archaeologist shows that there were never large numbers of Israelis in Egypt. If there was a large population wandering the Sinai for decades, there should be lots of evidence but none has been found in a century of searching by Jewish, Egyptian, and Christian archaeologists. There is no evidence of a conquest of Canaan or an abrupt change in culture during the time the OT says the Israelis invaded. The evidence from Israeli archaeologists show that there are many sites with similar culture but some have pig bones and some do not. So it seems that maybe the “Israelites” were nothing but another Canaanite religion with a dietary restriction.

      As for the New Testament, the early epistles only refer to Jesus in Old Testament terms. Epistle Jesus is not a preacher/teacher from Galilee. The epistles do not know about Gospel Jesus.

      The stories of Gospel Jesus draw from the literature of the day in the first century, much of it classical Greek literature and the OT writings.

      The Old Testament and the New Testament appear to be midrash based on the writings available at the time they were written.

      • Johanan

        Thank you for your honest sharing. LORD Jesus bless you and your house with healing, protection and salvation Amen.

        Hebrew language – The scholars studies in the western world of 19th and 20th centuries were not of people with Holy Spirit anointing. The world situation now have suddenly reveal a lot more since the internet age particularly on Egyptology. The Hebrew alphabets used by Moses for the first five books of Moses have been found to be based on some Egyptian hieroglyph. That is why God said this to Abraham :”Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.” (Genesis 15) They came out with Moses trained as prince to write in original alphabet language the five books of Moses. Along with silver and gold for the tabernacle and all the temple furniture. The proto-sinaitic alphabet gives enough evidence the whole middle east language development.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/32542eb7ab6b3515ff4c4eb2996390d102fa7373dbcd4c051aaeb7d440e6c1a3.jpg

        Jesus is Son of God – Jesus was not killed on Good Friday. The Passover lamb has to be taken into the house on 10th of Nissen (Palm Sunday). That is why He showed up for four days to be examined by the high priests like the lamb. He was killed on the evening sacrifice hour of the 14th of Nissen. When He was on the cross, the midnoon was taken as night for three hours, so He died on the ninth hour (three pm) when the evening lamb was killed. On that resurrection Sunday, it was the 17th of Nissen. The three hours between His death and the sunset can be counted as a day (yom) in the Hebrew language. Of the seven sacred festival ordained by Elohim in Leviticus. He done it, finished it in that few days for the three spring festivals (moedim).

        • So where are the “three nights” for Jesus?

        • Johanan

          Before I answer, my compliment to you and your audience for you guys are most fair and civil in so many sites I visited. The LORD Jesus bless you and all your loved ones with healing, provisions, shalom peace and salvation Amen.

          In Genesis 40, Joseph in prison interpreted dreams of the chief butler and then the baker as follows : “And Joseph said unto him (the butler), This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days:and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes …. I pray thee, unto me, and make mention of me unto Pharaoh, and bring me out of this house: …… (to the baker) Joseph answered and said, This is the interpretation thereof: The three baskets are three days: Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, and shall hang thee on a tree; and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.”

          Joseph is a picture of Christ. He went into the prison and freed the chief butler in prison, the branches are live of Jesus burst forth with live namely all the old testament saints and every one that are jailed under the conviction of sin and death waiting for the liberty by His death. But not all are saved because there are those (the baker) who built their lives on layers on layers of self help Cain religions (stack of white baskets on top his own head to reach to heaven)

        • Lark62

          If you find us fair and civil, please have the courtesy to keep your blessings and inane magic spells to yourself.

          Seriously. That is a strange way to show your appreciation.

          Do you honestly think we are impressed by the voices in your head? Likewise the thinly disguised attempt at proselytizing with your sermon?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          May the light of Reason, which has provided you with the tools you so grossly abuse here, reveal to you that it’s not wise to accept claims without evidence, and that arguments AREN’T evidence.

        • Bob Jase

          Joseph is an earlier myth that influenced the Jesus myth. Thank you for preaching, we see so little of that/

        • Greg G.

          The proto-sinaitic alphabet gives enough evidence the whole middle east language development.

          That is true. But the evidence shows that the Israelites did not invade Canaan, they did not wander the desert for forty years, and there were never large numbers of them in Egypt at any time, so there was no Exodus, no Moses, and no Abraham.

          Anybody who lived in the Levant 4,000 years ago and had any living descendants 2,500 years ago, would probably be ancestors of all of them many times over. Anyone of their ancestors would fill the bill as “Abraham”.He was killed on the evening sacrifice hour of the 14th of Nissen.

          He was killed on the evening sacrifice hour of the 14th of Nissen.

          That is what the Gospel of John says. Mark 14:12-16, Matthew 26:17-19, and Luke 22:7-12 tell us that it was the first day of the Feast of the Unleavened Bread and the disciples prepared the Passover. Mark 14:16-17, Matthew 26:19-20, and Luke 22:13-14 tell us that the disciples prepared the Passover, the evening and the hour came for the Passover, and that Jesus joined the disciples at the table. Matthew 26:21 and Matthew 26:26 says that they were eating.

        • Lark62

          The scholars studies in the western world of 19th and 20th centuries were not of people with Holy Spirit anointing.

          Prove that the “holy spirit annointing” in the 19th and 20th century was in any way different than the “holy spirit annointing” at any other time. Or that it differs from the “holy spirit annointing” of the leftover tuna casserole in my fridge.

          All claims must be supported by evidence.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          And may the light of Reason shine upon you and save you from ALL superstitions, your own included…

      • Greg,

        Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

        Let’s count
        1) Friday
        2) Saturday
        3) Sunday

        • Greg G.

          I did it that way in the first paragraph. It’s a few hours on Friday, not a full day, and possibly no day time at all on Sunday. But the context of the discussion is Matthew 12:40 where it says, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” There was no third night.

          In Matthew, the women arrived at dawn and Jesus was long gone. In Mark, it was very early in the morning and Jesus was long gone. In Luke, the women were there at early dawn and Jesus was long gone. In John, the women arrived while it was still dark and Jesus wasn’t in tomb. In Luke, Jesus could disappear. In John, Jesus could enter a locked room. So the story doesn’t even make the case that Jesus was there on the second day, let alone the third day.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Oh deary me…

          How can we fit three days and three nights between a Friday afternoon crucifixion and an Easter Sunday sunrise? The fact is, we can’t. So what is the truth about when Jesus was crucified and resurrected? How long was Jesus Christ in the tomb?

          About one billion Protestants and another billion Catholics believe that Jesus Christ was crucified and entombed on a Friday afternoon—”Good Friday”—and raised to life again at daybreak on Easter Sunday morning, a day and a half later.

          Yet when we compare this to what Jesus Himself said about how long He would be entombed, we find a major contradiction. How long did Jesus say He would be in the grave? “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40).

          Let the fuckwittery apologetics commence.

        • eric

          Sunday in Hell:
          Satan: Soooo…you’ll be checking out this morning? I have to know before 11am.
          Jesus: no, I’m staying another night. Three nights, remember? Friday night, Saturday night…I need to stay Sunday night and check out on Monday if I’m to fulfill the prophesy.
          Satan: well, I’ll have to charge you for the extra night then.
          Jesus: what? dude, I went into the grave with just this cloth. I don’t have that kind of afterlife coinage. Friends and family discount?
          Satan: hmmm…noooo, you have to check out if you can’t pay. That’s the way we roll down here. But tell you what. Just convince your followers to count both the first and last day each as a day/night event, and you can still fulfill that prophecy.
          Jesus: that seems like it’s deceptive without blatantly lying.
          Satan: glad to be of service. As a reminder, today’s free baby & omelet bar is set up in the Reagan room.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          1 – Friday SUNDOWN
          2 – Saturday SUNDOWN…maybe.

          Nope.

    • LastManOnEarth

      Cool story, bro!

    • eric

      Jonah is a picture of Jesus

      All the bad things that happened to Jonah, happened because he was fleeing from his religious fate. Trying to avoid serving the lord. Fear and cowardice, basically.

      Is this analogous to what Jesus was doing? Is this motivation analogous to Jesus’ motivation? Or are only the bits of the Jonah story that you cherry pick analogous to Jesus?

      • Johanan

        All the pictures of Christ are only partial, only Jesus is the Christ …. For example Joseph is a picture of Christ but not all parts. Another David is a picture of Christ. That is why many devout Jews are waiting for two types of Messiahs, Yoseph Ben Yacob and David Ben Jesse.

        • Greg G.

          All the pictures of Christ are only partial, only Jesus is the Christ

          Everybody who ever lived is a partial picture of everybody else who ever lived.

        • eric

          If you’re only looking at the similarities and ignoring the differences between know already known figures, then what you’re doing is called confirmation bias.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower
    • Ignorant Amos

      Absolute ballix.

    • Lark62

      According to your own book, Jesus was not dead for three nights.

  • “Another popular Christian claim is that Jesus is on every page of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments.”

    Christians impose Jesus on every page of the Bible. The impose the New Testament on the Old. They impose their modern Christian doctrines on the New Testament. They impose later parts of the Old Testament on earlier parts. And once all of the imposing is done, it seems to be 100% consistent to them. Anything that can’t be spun in such a way as to appear to be consistent with their current beliefs is deemed a “difficult passage” and simply ignored.

    • Just curious, what version of Christian were you?

      • JustAnotherAtheist2

        Not at all relevant. If Jesus is on every page, then it would be apparent to all denominations as well as non-believers.

        • Exactly the opposite was said…
          Many false teacher will arise, early church warning.

          one faith was taught

          Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

          Denying the message in very specific ways was predicted, you’re actually a fulfillment.

          Think about it… do you go around all day trampling on people who believe in big foot?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          So what makes you think that you, personally, AREN’T another of those false teachers you prattle about?

          Bring the evidence, skippy.

        • Ignorant Amos

          one faith was taught

          We know that’s a loada ballix.

        • Bob Jase

          Even in the seven maybe mostly authentic Pauline letters the author is chastising the various churches for not preaching/teaching/ practicing the same faith correctly.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Many false teacher will arise, early church warning.

          A warning made by false teachers who wanted their work to have an air of authenticity..

          First Timothy.

          4 1-2 God’s Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of the devil, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh.

          First Timothy is a pseudepigraphic work. Which is a fancy name for a forgery. Which is another word for lie.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          Do people who believe in Bigfoot go around trampling on others’ rights? Do people who believe in Bigfoot make efforts to legislate their dogma and corrode the education system?

        • lets all teach nothing becomes rock instead. Fairy tales lad. Big foot is fiction. God’s truth is written on your heart even… want me to prove it?

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          I agree that “nothing becomes a rock” is not a good thing to teach. I wish religious folk would stop teaching it.

        • from 40″sec on… there are video’s from Nat Geo, other sciences ref, all saying the same thing.
          Something so small a trillion could fit on a pin head became Mount Everest x a gazillion.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOz4PkdY7aA

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          And? At what point does it say that a true “nothing” preceded it? The only times you see that are in religious apologetics and when religious folk like you misrepresent current understanding. In truth, we can say with confidence what the universe was like immediately after it took its current form, but we have no idea what happened at origination or even if “origination” is a sensible term to use.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          God’s truth is written on your heart even… want me to prove it?

          Challenge accepted.

          But you’ll need to bring EVIDENCE, not arguments.

        • OK, but you gotta be honest.

          Has someone ever lied to you?

      • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

        Just curious, why is that even relevant?

        • it says, just curious… shave those eyes, you’ll be able to see better.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Based on your behavior in this thread, it’s an obvious attempt to discredit your interlocutor.

        • Hairy, look up hypocrite. As humans we all may stand in this category from time to time, some daily. I’m conversing, as I am conversed with. Didn’t you see the truth I told you to look into? The future was predicted in writing… I’ll be on my best behavior around a proper lad like yourself.

      • Ficino

        I used to be Catholic. Back when there were properly run states, you would have been burned at the stake as a private-judgment loving heretic. I would have been in the crowd laughing.

        • 2Q’s?
          Q1. Did you obey the Gospel as a Catholic?
          A:

          Q2. Did you understand the Gospel?
          A:

        • Ignorant Amos

          No one does. Not even you.

        • Ficino

          Your questions don’t deserve an answer.

          You protestant fundies get your Bible from the Church. The Church and her tradition existed at the beginning. The collection of books we call the Bible was put together by the Church according to selection criteria already established by tradition.

          And you Protestant fundies don’t even understand the texts. The Lutheran notion of imputed righteousness is simply unscriptural. Arguments that the eucharist are nothing but a memorial are unscriptural.

          As I said above in a snarky way, I’ll seriously now: if politics went as they did through most of Christendom’s history, you would be charged at law as a heretic and subject to horrific torture.

          ETA: and the Protestants dished out the heresy trials and torture too, so don’t try to weasel out of that.

      • Non-Institutional Church of Christ

        • When were you sealed by the Spirit?

          not talking about speaking in tongues or anything else… His Spirit bearing witness with yours?

        • In Churches of Christ it’s taught that when you “obey the gospel” in baptism, you receive the “gift of the Spirit,” which is salvation. They have plenty of scripture to back that belief up, which I don’t care to go into at the moment.

        • I appreciate that answer.
          Here is what the Apostle taught…

          …One Baptism…

          And it wasn’t about the water.

          Ephesians 4:5

          Lerk, were you told to look into your own life story, examine yourself, and ask yourself truly…

          IS JESUS CHRIST LIVING INSIDE ME???

          2 Corinthians 13:5

          If not, seriously, call upon the Lord for salvation. Ask Him for life in His Spirit and ask for Him to save & live inside you.

        • As part of the process that eventually led to my deconversion, I studied the alternatives to the doctrines I’d been taught all of my life. I eventually concluded that there was no right answer, because the entire thing was based on an invalid premise, that of a single creator god. The Bible starts off with the Most High and his sons creating the universe, then in the Song of Moses we see how one of his sons, called Yahweh/Jehovah or, simply, “the LORD”, became the god of Israel. Of course, no Christian believes this. In any case, there’s no such thing as being saved or lost, there are probably no such things as gods, and the god(s) of the Bible along with every other god people believe in today seem to be merely the product of speculation about what a god or gods would be like if there were such beings.

        • that of a single creator god

          Lerk, your alternative is nothing exploding, which never happens in reality.

          3:09 here

        • Things pop in and out of existence all the time at the quantum level.

          Anyway, because you seemed interested I explained where I’m coming from. Been fun talking with you!

        • Perhaps I’ve never seen or heard of it, surely that’s possible.

          What year did Israel become a nation?

          only time in history an ancient civilization has come back… predicted in writing.

          Just one of lots of correct future predictions here, on earth, in writing, in scripture.

        • Greg G.

          What year did Israel become a nation?

          Shortly after 539 BC, when Babylon surrendered to Cyrus the Great who allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem. That is what the OT prophecies were about though possibly written after the fact.

          The things done after WWII were a deliberate attempt to fulfill Bible prophecies that had been fulfilled a couple of millennia earlier.

        • Greg G.

          Lerk, your alternative is nothing exploding, which never happens in reality.

          That’s your complete misunderstanding of the current thinking about the universe.

        • epeeist

          That’s your complete misunderstanding

          Not so much a misunderstanding, more a case of a complete lack of understanding or even the capability of understanding.

        • IS JESUS CHRIST LIVING INSIDE ME???

          God, I hope not. Sounds like Alien.

          http://reel3.com/images/2012/reassessing-alien/kane_alien_birth.jpg

        • The reality is, if it didn’t happen to you… you never were part of the “Church”, according to the people who actually had the Spirit 2 Corinthians 13:5…
          100% chance you had a false church membership in your life Bob. Go tell your family and loved one’s we can have peace with God through Jesus. Otherwise, every word, action, and thought will be brought into the light at the judgement. The fact, get that, fact, your conscience has said, that’s a lie, both when someone lied to you and you lied. The internal witness of “shame”, and the fact a human can feel it traces to Adam and Eve 100%, the shame of sin, your conscience has simply put, been guilty, at times. Be converted while you can, call upon the Lord for salvation, for the renewing of your mind… before you perish.

        • epeeist

          Be converted while you can, call upon the Lord for salvation, for the renewing of your mind… before you perish.

          Descent to preaching and ad baculum – 100% complete

        • Greg G.

          The reality is, if it didn’t happen to you… you never were part of the “Church”, according to the people who actually had the Spirit 2 Corinthians 13:5…

          The reality is that if you actually test yourself and you do not end up rejecting religious faith all together, you failed.

        • Y’know, everyone thinks that God’s got a pretty good gig. He knows everything, he’s everywhere, no bills to pay, and so on. But it’s gotta be frustrating that he’s all-powerful and yet can’t get his message out clearly and unambiguously.

          Maybe dyslexia?

  • Ignorant Amos

    Problem 1: the Bible isn’t consistent

    In the first place, no, the Bible isn’t consistent. Not even close: the Bible says that Christians sin and that they don’t, that God can’t be seen and that he can, and that works save and that only faith saves. There are two incompatible Ten Commandments, there are two creation stories, and there are two Flood stories.

    Ahemmm!

    It’s a lot worse than that.

    At least three creation yarns, if ya count the Isiah account…

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/1519116?seq=1

    …or twenty plus, depending on what else and how ya read it.

    (1) Proverbs 8 The birth of Wisdom and her co-creative role

    (2) Psalm 33 The Creative Word

    (3) Psalm 104 Dynamic Creation – fruitfulness at the boundaries

    (4) Jeremiah 10 True (the world) and false (idols) creation

    (5) Jeremiah 4 An ‘anti-creation’ story: rolling it all back when humans disobey

    (6) Isaiah 28 Creation and the husbandry of agriculture

    (7) Isaiah 40 Numbering the structures of the cosmos

    (8) Isaiah 45 Creation is the backdrop to history

    (9) Isaiah 11 The hope of a New Creation

    (10) Hosea 2 A New Covenant with Creation

    (11) Genesis 1 The Cosmos is God’s real Temple

    (12) Genesis 2 Creation as ordering and forming

    (13) Psalm 89 Creation is God’s dominion

    (14) Psalm 8 Humankind’s glory in creation

    (15) Psalm 19 Creation re-echoes God’s creative Word

    (16) Psalm 102v25 Foundations of the earth and heavens

    (17) Job 26 Spreading out the skies and suspending the earth

    (18) Job 28 Wisdom is the perception and measure of creation with God

    (19) Job 38 Measuring out the foundations of the earth and heavens

    (20) John 1 Logos as the creative form

    (21) Revelation 21 The New Creation

    https://tcbmcleish.wordpress.com/2014/11/03/the-20-creation-stories-in-the-bible/

    • Greg G.

      The last line of the second link says, “OK there was an extra one, but I also left out several others. You need to find the relevant verses in most cases!”

      • Ignorant Amos

        I think that’s why it is 20 (+) in the OP title.

      • What is this passage talking about?

        Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

        • Ficino

          You mean, this is the verse that gave Matthew the idea of writing a fictional scene where one guy rides on TWO donkeys? Cool!

        • Jesus’s dad started out with a small circus, and that’s where Jesus learned his donkey acrobatics. (His dad moved on from circus side-show barker to snake oil salesman. You’ve probably heard of him.)

        • Ignorant Amos

          It’s a type of vaticinium ex eventu, postdiction, retrodiction ya Dime Bar.

          In this case, the author is author is writing a fiction to fulfill a perceived prophecy read in ancient texts.

          The buybull is fulll of it.

          You really can’t be this asinine, with just the one head.

        • TheNuszAbides
    • Thanks4AllTheFish

      And then there’s this; Biblical Contradictions

      • Ignorant Amos

        Yes…an excellent graphic. I’ve got it somewhere in my favourites. It might even have been sourced from a previous link og yours.

    • The scripture says of itself to study and divide it 2 Timothy 2:15. That’s why you blew it, you never studied.

      • Ignorant Amos

        The scripture says of itself to study and divide it 2 Timothy 2:15.

        Second Timothy is a second century forgery by an unknown author ffs.

        There are millions that’ve studied the fucking shite. They’re divided over it. Currently there are 45,000+ versions of the Christer cult. Many others went defunct. But lemme guess, your the True Scotsman in all this, amirite?

        That’s why you blew it, you never studied.

        Oh I’ve studied it alrite. In many of it’s various and conflicting interpretations. Tell, me which one is correct?

        But I’ve also done something you haven’t done. I’ve studied the history and reasons why the nonsense was concocted.

        You, on the other hand, show no evidence of having done any of this endeavour. The buybull is a Rorschach inkblot test.

        https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4LuxzFhhjmE/Uo-g6EH6GhI/AAAAAAAABnw/YlecZIqo5qw/s1600/reflection3.jpg

    • Good list!

  • Hi Bob,
    Still spending your time beating the air? Still throwing stones at the spaghetti monster? Thrilling end game you have… anyway, lets chat.

    See how you are at interpreting… What is this?

    Psalms 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

    • Greg G.

      See how you are at interpreting… What is this?

      It is apparently a mistranslation of the verse. An early Christian, Jerome, read that into it. The Hebrew text lacks a verb but a literal translation is “like a lion my hands and my feet”. The Septuagint has “they have dug my hands and feet”.

      • I’ve also seen doubts about the hands having been pierced in the crucifixion, as they would have been torn by the weight of the body.

        Not to mention the OT messianic prophecies were not fulfilled.

        • Greg G.

          I’ve also seen doubts about the hands having been pierced in the crucifixion, as they would have been torn by the weight of the body.

          40 years ago, I heard that that the nails would be through the forearms.

          Not to mention the OT messianic prophecies were not fulfilled.

          It seems that most of the “fulfilled” prophecies were not even prophecies.

        • You know…
          Psalms 22 (Davids lifetime) was written approx 650 years BEFORE the Romans even started crucifying people.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          So?

          YOUR KIND are taking those verses out of context in a way that you’d NEVER allow a muslim, a jewish person, or other religions to use to ‘buttress’ their claims.

        • No other faith writings predict the future, none. Out of context? Listen to another…

          Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

        • Lord Backwater

          Wow, so someone foresaw the crucifixion, but without the cross? What does that even?

        • piercing of the hands and feet? What other method of roman execution does this? no crosses in Rome?

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          Are you even going to acknowledge that it was likely a mistranslation? Or are you not here to hand an honest discussion?

        • Bogus. over 3 universities were involved in translation and it was cross examined. But maybe you know better. You know people do look at the text from a critical standpoint who believe.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          Feel free to respond to Greg’s comment:

          The word for “pierced” appears 11 times in 10 verses in the Hebrew Old Testament and that is the only place where the KJV translates it as “pierced”. Usually it is “thrust through”, but that wouldn’t work for Christianity. The JPS Tanakh 1917 translates it as “thrust through”. The Brenton Septuagint Translation has nothing about stabbing, thrusting, or piercing.

          It seems to be another case of Christian shenanigans in translation to create a prophecy where none exists.

          Or the even more detailed one above.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          How DARE you demand that this 69assclown actually respond to factual data?!

          😉

        • Pofarmer

          Skimming through this it’s just, wow, level stupid. How can this be in 2020?

        • Bob Jase

          Have you checked the White House lately?

        • Pofarmer

          Touche’.

        • Geoff Benson

          Crucifixion didn’t pierce the hand, as the rest of the torso would simply have torn through the palms. Crucifixion was through the wrists.

        • Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

          Couple inches OK?

        • Geoff Benson

          It’s clear they made it up as the went along. We don’t even know who was doing the making up!

        • For no benefit in this world unto their death?

        • Geoff Benson

          And then it’s too late.

        • nah.
          1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

        • Geoff Benson

          I’ll say this, you certainly know your bible. Pity you didn’t pick something useful to do with your time.

        • Geoff, consider scientific facts. Life is in the blood, modern science proved it!!!

          link here https://www.fi.edu/heart/its-alive

        • Geoff Benson

          I’m not too sure what your point is. Blood is an important constituent of human life, as it is to many forms of life, but I’m not sure there’s a point to saying that ‘life is in the blood’. One could say the same thing about skin, or hair, or toenails, or amino acids.

        • Hello, Geoff, modern science discovered that.

          This was written over 3,000 years ago in scripture.

          “For the life of the flesh is in the blood:”

        • Geoff Benson

          That’s just poetry. They had no idea what they meant by their words in a scientific sense.

          And oh my…the bible got so much wrong.

        • Greg G.

          This was written over 3,000 years ago in scripture.

          None of the Bible was written 3000 years ago.

          And life is not in the blood. Here is an article on artificial blood:

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738310/

        • Greg g. “None of the Bible was written 3000 years ago.

          When did Moses live?

        • Greg G.

          When did Moses live?

          He didn’t live. For your information, neither did Spiderman. They are both fictional characters.

          Egyptian archaeology shows that there were never large numbers of Israelites in Egypt. Israeli archaeology shows that there was no invasion of Canaan when the Exodus was supposed to have happened, only sites with similar culture except some had pig bones and some didn’t, which means the Hebrews may come from a Canaanite religion with a certain dietary restriction. Christian, Israeli, and Egyptian archaeology shows that there was never a large group of people who traveled the Sinai desert for forty years.

          Therefore, there was no Exodus, it is a fictional story. If there was no Exodus, there was no leader of the Exodus. No matter how many people named Moses existed at the time, none of them were the Moses of the Bible. So the Old Testament writings cannot connect the Hebrews to Abraham and Jacob, either.

          Do you know why archaeologists have dropped the term “Bible Archaeology”? It was because archaeology does not support the Bible stories.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Around about the same time as the Greek mythical figure Achilles.

        • And Troy is a real place. Just as the archaeologists.

          Checkmate, atheists!

        • Ok, let see how much of reality you will deny…

          When did Israel become a nation, most recently?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Why?

        • What year?

        • Ignorant Amos

          You really are this asinine with just the one head.

          There are no OT Hebrew scriptures from 3,000 years ago. You’ve been told this. But even if there was, they wouldn’t be the first note that for the ancients, “life of the flesh is in the blood”. One doesn’t have to know rocket science to smart enough to recognise that as the blood runs out of an animal, it dies.

          Scientific considerations about blood begin only with the Greeks. The knowledge about blood in Homeric times could be summarized in the four following concepts which are valid even today: (a) The blood is so essential for life that it is considered to be the centre of life itself [7–9]. (b) Death is considered to be definitive and irrevocable when it is caused by lack of blood. As a result, clashes in which murder and blood (“…φόνoςτεκαιαίμα”, “…phonos te kai haema”) make their appearance are horrible [10–12]. (c) Besides red blood there is also dark blood in the body, not only in humans but also in animals. What we have here in fact is a distinction between arterial and venous blood. (d) From an anthropological, racial, ethnological, and social point of view, blood is regarded as a tribal, national and family bond.

          https://www.hindawi.com/journals/anemia/2010/857657/

          All ancient nations hinged their beliefs about hema (blood) on their religious dogmas as related to mythology or the origins of religion. The Hellenes (Greeks) especially have always known hema as the well-known red fluid of the human body. Greek scientific considerations about blood date from Homeric times. The ancient Greeks considered hema as synonymous with life. In Greek myths and historical works, one finds the first references to the uninterrupted vascular circulation of blood, the differences between venous and arterial blood, and the bone marrow as the site of blood production. The Greeks also speculated about mechanisms of blood coagulation and the use of blood transfusion to save life.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21490910

        • Raging Bee

          Um…life is in living tissue, not just the blood. You have no clue what you’re talking about.

        • Meaning what? If you sprinkle blood on something, it becomes alive? If an animal has an injury that doesn’t involve blood, it won’t die?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Nah….creotard bilge websites, yes, the buybull. I don’t think so.

        • Raging Bee

          They benefit by getting followers.

        • Ignorant Amos

          That crap was to retro fit to the OT passages, ya daft tit.

        • Show us in Psalms the description of the cross-shaped cross.

          Or retract your claim of prophecy.

        • When was Crucifixion invented? Medical Journal link here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14750495

          Psalms 22 was written in Davids lifetime approx 1,000 bc, earths history, fact. Secular source, David existed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David

          Artifact show Pontius Pilate was in fact the governor, during Jesus lifetime. Secular Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone

        • Ignorant Amos

          Cretin.

        • Ficino

          You mean, this is another of those verses that Mark used to cobble together his fictional crucifixion story? Cool!

        • Greg G.

          The word for “pierced” appears 11 times in 10 verses in the Hebrew Old Testament and that is the only place where the KJV translates it as “pierced”. Usually it is “thrust through”, but that wouldn’t work for Christianity. The JPS Tanakh 1917 translates it as “thrust through”. The Brenton Septuagint Translation has nothing about stabbing, thrusting, or piercing.

          It seems to be another case of Christian shenanigans in translation to create a prophecy where none exists.

        • another case of Christian shenanigans in translation to create a prophecy where none exists.

          And Ps. 22 is in the top 3 of passages Christians cite to prove prophecy (out of hundreds of claimed prophecies).

          If this is as good as it gets, I wonder how they can argue for those hundreds more with a straight face.

        • Greg G.

          The prophecies are like Omega 3 capsules. They are super fish oil.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          You faith writings don’t predict the future, either, based on all available credible evidence.

          All claims that such occurred are self-serving lies, and if any other religion tried it, YOUR KIND would be the first to ridicule them for it.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Lies, lies, and more Christer lies.

          This New Testament mistranslation of Zechariah in and of itself demonstrates that the New Testament is fallacious.

          https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/analysis-of-zechariah-1210

        • Amos,

          Are their fountains of water underneath earth’s surface?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Whaaa?

          All water comes from “fountains” underneath the earth’s surface…they’re commonly known as springs. That’s what wells are ffs.

          Those aren’t prophecies. They are understood geological features. Underground springs and aquifers were used for irrigation in a qanat or kariz as far back as 1,000 BCE.

          What is it you are getting at? Not the Noah fuckwittery I hope.

        • A desert dweller put this in writing… how could he know? You dig a 20ft hole in the desert, there is no water.

          Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

        • Greg G.

          Where are the fountains of the great deep? Where are the windows of heaven? There are underground springs that flow but that is gravity at work. How do fountains of the great deep work?

          Genesis was not written by a Moses over 3000 years ago. The evidence shows that there were never large numbers of Israelites in Egypt, there was no large mass of people wandering for 40 years in the desert. There was no massive cultural change in Canaan except that some sites have pig bones and some do not. There was no Exodus, so there was no Moses. All of those five books attributed to Moses are religious fiction.

        • Ignorant Amos

          A desert dweller put this in writing… how could he know?

          So not Moses then?

          Nah, no desert dweller. You really need to learn something, your stupidity and naivete is shocking.

          You dig a 20ft hole in the desert, there is no water.

          Do you know what an oasis is?

          Anyway, this asshattery you’re engaging in is ridiculous. The book of Genesis wasn’t written by illiterate nomads in the desert. It was written when the authors had access to Babylonian cosmology while in exile, or sometime after. Scholars have known this for quite some time. You’d know that if you knew how to use Google. The ancients believed the earth was flat and floated on a subterranean ocean. It isn’t and doesn’t. But thinking that way, there is no problem with thinking the earth cracked and the ocean burst out.

          Your fuckwittery that it was underground springs that suddenly welled up is even dafter that the ancients thinking. Wise up fer fuck sake. You can’t be an educated adult with such backwardness.

          Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

          Repeat the nonsense as many times as ya like. Rational and critical thinkers, know it for what it is, a myth.

          Folk don’t live to 600, all the fountains of the deep didn’t break up, and there are no windows in the firmant that opened to let the ocean above flood the whole earth. You are a creotard muppet, take this fuckwittery and shove it up yer imbecilic arse.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology

        • Lex Lata

          Twenty feet would be quite shallow for most wells, but having grown up in New Mexico and participated in water litigation, I can say with certainty the depth needed depends on where one digs.

          And while “fountains” is poetic and imprecise, I would certainly agree there is subsurface groundwater around, in both arid and humid locations. Geologists generally agree that about 0.75% of all liquid water on the planet is groundwater. (Not anywhere near enough to cover the Earth to the top of the highest mountain, of course.)

          But I am perplexed by your point. Humans in arid locations have had a working knowledge of–and indeed been digging for–groundwater for thousands of years. Archaeoligists have found man-make wells in the Eastern Mediterranean region dated to roughly 6000-8000 BCE, for instance–several millennia before there was even a Hebrew alphabet. It’s not remotely surprising that the authors of the Torah would have a grasp of the basic concept of groundwater. In fact, it would be astonishing if they didn’t.

        • you missed it…
          the claim was water underneath earths surface, all over the globe…

          Rain did the remaining flooding it said.

        • Lex Lata

          I’m aware of the rain part of the Flood story. And there’s still nowhere near enough water vapor, subsurface groundwater, surface freshwater, frozen water, and surface saltwater–water of any and all sorts–on this planet to cover everything to the top of Mount Everest.

          But that’s really just a side point, and not the purpose of my comment. Rather, I was addressing chiefly your apparent misapprension that the Torah authors’ awareness of subsurface groundwater a few thousand years ago was somehow remarkable, even though humans in the Near East (and elsewhere) were familiar with and digging for subsurface groundwater for millennia before the first Hebrew characters were even written.

          Do you agree that human beings in the ancient Near East knew about groundwater and knew to dig for it before the Torah was written? If yes, then we’re on the same page.

        • Ignorant Amos

          One would think someone as stupid as SS would be lapping up all this free education, but nope…as daft as the day is long and works hard to remain that way.

        • Lex Lata

          SS:. Here’s a text from 1000 BC written by Patriarch McPatriarchface that prefigures amazing knowledge from the future! It’s a prophetic miracle!

          CE regular: Here’s why the text isn’t that old, is of unknown authorship, and describes perfectly ordinary knowledge for the location and time period.

          SS: . . . . here’s another text from 1000 BC written by Patriarch McPatriarchface II that prefigures amazing knowledge from the future! It’s a prophetic miracle!

          Rinse, repeat, etc.

          It seems Dunning-Kruger U offers a double major in ad hoc rationalization and ancient ahistory.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Dumbfuck doesn’t even begin to describe what is being played out here.

        • 🙂

        • This is simply the (wrong) cosmology of the Sumerians. Science has proven it wrong.

          https://store.donanimhaber.com/74/c3/b1/74c3b148d727fcadcd58b08e1a07db58.jpg

        • Thanks for acknowledging what scripture said over 3,000 years before modern science. There is in fact, fountains/springs underneath earth.

          Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Thanks for acknowledging what scripture said over 3,000 years before modern science.

          There was no OT scripture 3,000 years ago. Go learn something.

          You think the ancients wouldn’t be aware of underground springs?

          There is in fact, fountains/springs underneath earth.

          I know, so what?

          Genesis 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

          Flood Myth’s are universal and many pre-date the buybull. The Noah flood is a hotchpotch of two different myths crammed together with themes plagiarised from existing myths from other ANE cultures.

          Here’s the Chaldean version.

          According to accounts attributed to Berosus, the antediluvians were giants who became impious and depraved, except one among them that reverenced the gods and was wise and prudent. His name was Noa, and he dwelt in Syria with his three sons Sem, Japet, Chem, and their wives Tidea, Pandora, Noela, and Noegla. From the stars, he foresaw destruction, and he began building an ark. 78 years after he began building, the oceans, inland seas, and rivers burst forth from beneath, attended by many days of violent rain. The waters overflowed all the mountains, and the human race was drowned except Noa and his family who survived on his ship. The ship came to rest at last on the top of the Gendyae or Mountain. Parts of it still remain, which men take bitumen from to make charms against evil. [H. Miller, pp. 291-292]

          http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

          There are no windows in the heaven to be opened. That wasn’t a problem for the ancients though, because they believed that the firmament was a solid dome with an ocean above it. Something else the Hebrews stole from surrounding culturea.We know that’s ballix these days.

          https://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/theology/hebrew-cosmology.png

          You really have no idea what you are talking about, and I’m embarrassed for you. Wise ta fuck up with this creotard fuckwittery.

        • Bogus Amos, count again… over 3,000 years, fact.

          When did Moses live?

          Secular source https://www.britannica.com/biography/Moses-Hebrew-prophet

        • Ignorant Amos

          Go away and learn something.

          No one knows when Moses is supposed to have lived. Many scholars now contest his existence and believe it is a backstory for a fledgling culture developing from the Canaanites. There is no evidence to support the yarn, certainly not as described in the buybull.

          The dates preferred for the setting of Moses are extrapolated from the buybull itself. That is circular. But there is huge problems with these dates.

          None of that matters as to when the buybull was written.

          It wasn’t written at the time Moses is supposed to have been around. Or even by a single guy called Moses.

          https://allthatsinteresting.com/who-wrote-the-bible

          There is no evidence that Hebrews in the 10th century even had writing capability. Let alone any buybull text was written then.

          https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/news/when-was-the-hebrew-bible-written/

        • Jewish interpretation is credible to you?

        • Ignorant Amos

          It’s their fucking book ya Clampett.

          But lemme guess, the Christer interpretations are more credible to you.

          You really need to learn the problem with using Hebrew and Greek lexicons or concordances. They are corrupted by Christian bias.

          https://scriptura.journals.ac.za/pub/article/viewFile/120/128

        • Greg G.

          Jewish interpretations may have a Jewish bias but it lacks a Christian bias.

        • Ignorant Amos

          No other faith writings predict the future, none.

          Tell that to the Muslims, they’d beg to differ. And their prophecy claims are far more impressive.

          https://www.alislam.org/articles/fulfilled-prophecies-of-holy-quran/

        • Revelation 13: …both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, except he that had the mark…

          Small breakdown of something written approx 2,000 years ago.

          IN THE HAND
          CONNECTED TO MONEY

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzFhBGKU6HA

        • Ignorant Amos

          Dishonest Christer quote mine. Stop torturing the text in order to fit yer mindwankery.

          https://www.bible.com/bible/97/REV.13.MSG

          How is that a prophecy realized in RFID technology?

          I know you buy into this crap, but fer fuck sake, think about the crap you are spewing.

          The “prophecy” has adapted as science has moved forward. We were all getting barcodes, now it’s RFID chips. Wise up.

          https://www.bibleref.com/Revelation/13/Revelation-13-16.html

          The mark of the beast will be different from the mark of the righteous.

          The mark of the beast will be visible. The other will be invisible.

          The mark of the beast will be like a brand of ownership and identification, such that a slave had. Or the Jews in the Holocaust.

          In summary, the mark of the beast would signify to the reader of the time that the recipient: worshipped the beast as divine, acknowledged the beast’s authority, is devoted to the beast, and considers himself to be the beast’s property or slave to command.

          https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/revelation/revelation-13/revelation-13-16.html

          The mark of the Beast is also believed to have been Roman money with Nero’s head on it, Nero being understood to be the Beast

          The Classical Greek word charagma (χάραγμα), translated as mark (of the beast) in Revelation 13:16 can also mean any mark engraved, imprinted, or branded; stamped money, document, or coin.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast#Mark_of_the_beast

          Nutjobs love making shite up to fit their woo-woo. It’s an understood phenomena in psychology.

        • You’re willingly ignorant.

          Quoting you “How is that a prophecy realized in RFID technology?

          Answer: The writing predicted something in a hand that money would be tied to…

          Right?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Will everyone be RFID tagged?

          Why not credit cards, or cheques, ju-ju beads….or money like they had when they believed Nero was the Beast?

          What if RFID is obsolete before everyone is chipped?

          What’s this forehead bit? Do we just ignore that bit along with the slave reference?

          Will those with no money be using RFID chips to buy stuff?

          You are a futurist Christer,

          You don’t get assert your woo-woo as the correct woo-woo at the expense of the other fuckwits woo-woo.

          I’ll just leave this Christer article to explain to you why you are torturing the texts.

          https://rcg.org/realtruth/articles/101105-001-prophecy.html

        • Pofarmer

          Could the mark on the forehead bit have something to do with Hindu’s?

        • Greg G.

          Maybe it’s like the ash put on the foreheads of Catholics for Ash Wednesday.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Or them wee boxes that some Jews strapped to their heads.

        • Pofarmer

          You’ve lost me with that one.

        • Ignorant Amos
        • Pofarmer

          Huh.

        • Greg G.

          Answer: The writing predicted something in a hand that money would be tied to…

          As if Revelation wasn’t vague enough, you have to make it even more vague to get it to work. Revelation specifies a mark, not a card. The mark would be “the name of the beast or the number of its name”, but every RFID has a different number, not the number of the beast.

        • Raging Bee

          Yours don’t predict the future either. How many times have y’all had to revise your End Times predictions? I remember when many of you were saying the world would end around 1999.

        • Lord Backwater

          “Count the hits and skip the misses”

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I’ve heard it called ‘The Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy’.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Psalms 22 (Davids lifetime) was written approx 650 years BEFORE the Romans even started crucifying people.

          Crucifixion as a means of execution was a thing in the ANE well before the Romans showed up on the scene and perfected it,

          In antiquity crucifixion was considered one of the most brutal and shameful modes of death. Probably originating with the Assyrians and Babylonians, it was used systematically by the Persians in the 6th century BC. Alexander the Great brought it from there to the eastern Mediterranean countries in the 4th century BC, and the Phoenicians introduced it to Rome in the 3rd century BC.

          The Romans adopted the idea during the Punic Wars

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14750495

          Nope. The Psalms aren’t from “Davids lifetime”.

          Many are linked to the name of David, but his authorship is not accepted by modern scholars.

          And they weren’t written approx 650 tears BEFORE the Romans even started crucifying people.

          The composition of the psalms spans at least five centuries, from Psalm 29, possibly an Israelite adaptation of an entire Canaanite hymn to Baal, to others clearly from the post-Exilic period (not earlier than the fifth century B.C.) The majority originated in the southern kingdom of Judah and were associated with the Temple in Jerusalem, where they probably functioned as libretto during the Temple worship. Exactly how they did this is unclear, although there are indications in some of them: “Bind the festal procession with branches, up to the horns of the altar,” suggests a connection with sacrifices, and “Let my prayer be counted as incense” suggests a connection with the offering of incense.

          Exactly around the time pre-Roman crucifixion was taking place…and guess where?

          Crucifixion was most frequently used to punish political or religious agitators, pirates, slaves, or those who had no civil rights. In 519 BCE Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon;

          So Psalm 22’s reference to pierced hands and feet is not a problem nor prophecy.

        • Greg G.

          Psalms 22 (Davids lifetime) was written approx 650 years BEFORE the Romans even started crucifying people.

          Mark used Psalm 22 for material in the crucifixion narrative but verse 16 is a mistranslation by later Christians.

        • Psalms uses the verb “crucify”? Show me.

        • Ignorant Amos

          He knows it doesn’t.

          He’s been told that his fuckwittery is an English mistranslation.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_have_pierced_my_hands_and_my_feet

          He’s been told that there are no Hebrew writings from 1000 years BCE and that the Psalm he cites is not even of Davidic authorship.

          Where English translations have “psalm,” the underlying Hebrew word is מִזְמוֹר (mizmor), a song with instrumental accompaniment. This is part of the series of “Davidic Psalms” (mizmor le-david). Traditionally, their authorship was attributed to King David; however, in scholarly exegesis this attribution has been variously qualified or challenged since the late 19th century. The Hebrew particle le, can mean “for”, “about”, or “by”, so that it remains open to interpretation whether these psalms originate with David, or whether the heading refers, rather, to the chief character of the poetry, as being concerned with Davidic kingship in the narrow sense, or even divine kingship more generally.

          Psalm 22 is a multilayered authored work over centuries. Redacted and added to at leased three times. While the verse SS thinks is a prophecy of a future crucifixion, seems to predate the exilic and post-exilic additions, it is not a 1000 BCE origin. Because the Hebrews of Judah didn’t have that level of literacy at the time.

          But being just another dishonest Christer, SS isn’t interested in the scholarship…even those that a sources sympathetic to his religious beliefs.

          According to the Bible, a unified Hebrew-speaking kingdom flourished under King David and his son, Solomon; historians estimate that their reigns spanned roughly 1000 to 920 BCE, when the kingdom was divided into Israel, in the north, and Judah, in the south. The northern kingdom eventually fell to the Assyrians, the southern kingdom to the Babylonians. Although Hebrew inscriptions dating back to the 10th century BCE have been found, the dates associated with the Biblical texts have always been the subject of debate. The Book of Deuteronomy, for example, is a complex work unlikely to have been composed until literacy was fairly widespread, historians believe.

          https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/78416/more-people-were-literate-ancient-judah-we-knew

          The evidence on the ground makes the biblical story that a unified Hebrew-speaking kingdom flourished under King David and his son, Solomon; historians estimate that their reigns spanned roughly 1000 to 920 BCE, when the kingdom was divided into Israel, in the north, and Judah, in the south, totally untenable.

        • Nice rebuttal.

        • Ignorant Amos

          I went back to re-read Hector Avalos’ “The End of Biblical Studies”, chapter nine, location 4040 on Kindle. The chapter that uses that very verse that the fuckwit SS is citing as an example of prophesied crucifixion written in the 10th century BCE.

          Avalos cites the passage as a prime example of the uselessness of academic journal papers in the academy, particularly the “Journal of Biblical Literature” in this example. Given that there are 3 papers published on the translation and interpretation of Psalm 22:17b entitled “Psalm 22:17b: The Old Guess”, “Psalm 22:17b: Second Guessing ‘The Old Guess'”, and the most recent one in 2000, “Psalm 22:17b: More Guessing”. The titles tell ya all ya need to know about their content. I’ve read the papers on JSTOR. They are navel gazing exercises to further the career of the authors. None of them support the Christer version.

          As scholars have long known, the phrase “they have pierced” does not really represent the Hebrew text (the Masoretic Text). To achieve that translation, scholars have to change the Hebrew text for it to make sense. Instead of “they have pierced,” the actual Hebrew text has the word ‘ry, which is best translated as “lion,” and which is preceded by a Hebrew preposition, meaning “as” or “like.” Thus, if one did use the actual Hebrew text, the verse may be translated as:

          “Yea, dogs are around about me;
          a company of evildoers encircle me,
          Like a lion my hands and feet.”

          Scholars note that there seems to be a verb missing. So scholars simply change “like a lion” into a verb such as “pierce,” “dig,” or “shrivel”. So the NRSV has the translation “my hands and feet are shriveled”. But SS won’t be “scripture searching” that version, because it fucks with his confirmation bias as a nod to crucifixion.

          The most recent paper of the three suggests that the passage describes a binding. A revived scholarly interpretation.

          “Yea dogs are around me;
          a company of evildoers encircle me,
          They have bound my hands and feet.”

          The author of the paper, Brent Strawn, concludes that he still can’t make any sense of the text as it stands. So states that the old guess “may very well be the best guess” at the end of the day. Guessing seems the best anyone has got.

          “If so, then the problem in the passage must lie elsewhere, probably in a verb that has dropped out. Which verb might have been lost constitutes another guess… Who knows how many more guesses will come along before the crux at Ps 22:17b is solved once and for all? Only one thing is certain: in the present methodological context, recourse to the versions and to scholarly emendations is no longer enough.” ~Brent A. Strawn

          https://www.jstor.org/stable/3268408?read-now=1&seq=1

          Brent A. Strawn is Professor of Old Testament at Duke University, USA. He has edited more than twenty volumes to date, including the award-winning The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Bible and Law (2015). But we’ve got ScripureSearch here to keep us right, so who needs an OT professor?

          The other two articles…

          https://www.jstor.org/stable/3266745?read-now=1&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

          https://www.jstor.org/stable/3268408?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

          There is certainly a lot of controversy over interpretation and translation. With the Dead Sea Scrolls, the issue is still controversial. One letter is the difference here. That letter in the DSS is eligible to one side or the other, depending on bias.

          Text tampering has been suggested on all sides too. Christers are experts at that malarkey, historically.

          The elephant in the room is that this verse, had it existed as Christers claim the NT was being compiled, could not have been overlooked by the authors of the NT texts. Particularly as other parts of Psalm 22 are cited in the gospels, so the writers were aware of its contents.

          The other issue is the requirement to believe in prophetic writing and then torturing the whole text to fit a prophecy. How could the majority of the Jews at the time not be swayed by such writing? Since belief in prophetic writing was their bag and this would’ve been a gem.

          For me, it all boils down to the most pragmatic explanation. And a text written in the 10th century BCE by an entertainer King called David, according to the evidence, isn’t that.

        • Greg G.

          Do you have the link for “Psalm 22:17b: Second Guessing ‘The Old Guess'”? Please? You have the link for “Psalm 22:17b: More Guessing” twice.

          ETA: Oh, hell. I thought they were showing me the whole article but when I scrolled, it’s just the first page. Can I borrow $42 dollars until my Mega Millions Retirement Plan pays off?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Do you have the link for “Psalm 22:17b: Second Guessing ‘The Old Guess'”?

          Soz…

          https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/3266445.pdf?seq=1

          ETA: Oh, hell. I thought they were showing me the whole article but when I scrolled, it’s just the first page. Can I borrow $42 dollars until my Mega Millions Retirement Plan pays off?

          You can register an account an get 6 papers a week free. Some are not available without payment, but most of what I’m interested in are usually gratis.

        • Greg G.

          Thanks.

        • The author of the paper, Brent Strawn, concludes that he still can’t make any sense of the text as it stands.

          But if you read with the eye of faith, knowing what you want to see, it all falls into place. Ain’t God marvelous?

        • Kuno

          I remember readng somewhere that piercing of the hands and feet (without the cruxifixion part) has been used as a punishment in the past but I cannot find any reference on Google because all that comes up is pages about the Psalm…

          Maybe someone else’s Google-Fu is stronger.

        • Greg G.

          My Google-Fu is no better but I did stumble across:
          A Few Remarks on the Problem of Psalm 22:16
          https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2015/09/28/a-few-remarks-on-the-problem-of-psalm-2216/

    • Kuno

      Where do the dogs come into the picture?

      • dog=gentile
        romans=gentile

        • Greg G.

          Babylonian=gentile

        • you got it.

          Australian = Gentile

          Asian = Gentile

          African = Gentile

        • Greg G.

          Except for the Jews who live in Australia, Asia, and Africa.

        • Ignorant Amos

          And God in the OT praised the Babylonians.

        • Greg G.

          Isaiah 45:1-3 (ESV)1 Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus,    whose right hand I have grasped,to subdue nations before him    and to loose the belts of kings,to open doors before him    that gates may not be closed:2 “I will go before you    and level the exalted places,I will break in pieces the doors of bronze    and cut through the bars of iron,3 I will give you the treasures of darkness    and the hoards in secret places,that you may know that it is I, the Lord,    the God of Israel, who call you by your name.

          His Anointed? This is saying that Cyrus the Great was the Messiah.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Yep….23 times he gets a mention….

          Thus saith Cyrus, king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth hath the LORD, the God of heaven given me; and He hath charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whosoever there is among you of all His people – the LORD, his God, be with him – let him go there. ~ 2 Chronicles 36:23

          A feckin’ Gentile getting the heap….God was a fickle cunt. Build him a temple and he’d lick yer arse.

        • Greg G.

          I found that Daniel 11:1 has “Darius the Mede” in the Masoretic Text but the LXX has “Cyrus”.

        • Lord Backwater

          This is you putting your own words in place of God’s words. If only there were a term for that. Like for example blasphemy.

        • Kuno

          So the hand-piercing is literal but the dogs in the same sentence are a metaphor?

        • not really.

          Matthew 15:22-28

        • Kuno

          Please elaborate.

      • Ficino

        Maybe it’s because “dog” spelled backwards = “god.” ?

    • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

      Sounds like a pathetic attempt at condescension mixed with a non-sequitur deepity.

      What do I win?

      • You have your reward.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Yep.

          A free mind, the 10% minimum of my income religion would demand, and countless hours of recovered time…not to mention an end to irrational anxiety.

          Oh….that’s NOT what you meant? You meant it as a veiled threat that your supernatural daddy was gonna come beat me up after I’m dead?

          Pathetic…

        • 100% chance you joined a cult in your life and even as an atheist are in one.
          Christians can have the mind of Christ, your mind is in bondage to this day; 1 Corinthians 2:16
          You didn’t pass the exam, try again; 2 Corinthians 16:5
          Christians were instructed to think about peace, you missed it; Philippians 4:8
          Keep your money; Isaiah 55:1

          Everything you mentioned was the opposite of what Paul said someone who received Christ gets. Turn to Christ, be converted. Call upon the Lord in your conscience, ask for life in Him.

        • From a Christian perspective, yes, you’re right. Rom. 5:18-19 makes clear that we’re all forgiven and heaven bound.

    • Ficino

      You mean, this is the verse that gave Mark the idea of inventing a crucifixion story?

      • “inventing a crucifixion story”
        was written before Crucifixion was invented…

        • Lord Backwater

          Why would that matter to an omniscient God, or someone who was taking His dictation?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Nonsense.

          You don’t know what you are talking about. No surprise there then.

        • Greg G.

          Ficino is saying the author of the Gospel of Mark invented the crucifixion story. That was after the Romans began to crucify people.

          I think Paul invented the idea of Jesus being crucified from the various OT passages he quoted in Galatians 3:6-14. He said the Law was a curse and hanging a body on a tree was a curse so if Jesus was hung on a tree and died, it was the curse of the Law dying. But Paul, like most NT writers, used the Septuagint and the Greek word that corresponds to “tree” in the Hebrew version can mean “tree”, “wood”, or “cross”. Basically, Paul used word play rather than logic to invent the crucifixion idea.

        • Ficino

          Crucifixion is believed to have originated with the Assyrians. It was practiced by the Persians.

          In any case, your premise that crucifixion didn’t exist when that (late) psalm was written easy fits the theory that Mark or someone earlier went into the OT and found verses into which he read a fictional plotline, using those verses to flesh it out.

        • Ficino,

          Psalms 22 was written by David, approx 1,000 BC. When was Crucifixion invented?

        • Ficino

          You are either ignorant or lying. No date of 1000 BCE for psalm 22.

        • second paragraph, first sentence.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David

        • Ficino

          So it’s looking as though you are in fact lying. The sentence you cite says nothing about the date of composition of the text you quoted earlier.

        • It clearly says David lived around 1,000 BC. David wrote the psalms.

        • Greg G.

          The issue isn’t when or if David existed.

          David wrote the psalms.

          No, he didn’t. Look at Psalm 74.

          Psalm 74:4-11 (NRSV)4 Your foes have roared within your holy place;    they set up their emblems there.5 At the upper entrance they hacked    the wooden trellis with axes.6 And then, with hatchets and hammers,    they smashed all its carved work.7 They set your sanctuary on fire;    they desecrated the dwelling place of your name,    bringing it to the ground.8 They said to themselves, “We will utterly subdue them”;    they burned all the meeting places of God in the land.9 We do not see our emblems;    there is no longer any prophet,    and there is no one among us who knows how long.10 How long, O God, is the foe to scoff?    Is the enemy to revile your name forever?11 Why do you hold back your hand;    why do you keep your hand in your bosom?

          Why would David be crying about the enemy desecrating the temple when Solomon hadn’t built it yet?

          Psalm 25:22 (NRSV)Redeem Israel, O God,    out of all its troubles.

          What did Israel need to be redeemed from? It was supposed to have been a united kingdom under David.

          The Psalms were written during the Exile.

        • Greg, that post was frivolous. I also agree with you, David did not write some Psalms.

          The question is did David write Psalm 22… come back soon.

        • Greg G.

          I have shown that the word “pierced” in English translations for Psalm 22:16 and Zechariah 12:10 are inconsistent with the translation of the words used.

          See A Few Remarks on the Problem of Psalm 22:16
          https://isthatinthebible.wordpress.com/2015/09/28/a-few-remarks-on-the-problem-of-psalm-2216/

          David did not write some Psalms.

          You haven’t established that David wrote any of them.

        • DID DAVID WRITE PSALMS 22?

        • Greg G.

          The only evidence for David is the Tel Dan Stele with an inscription that mentions “house of David” but that doesn’t say whether David was a king, a warlord, an innkeeper, or a god thingy.

          You haven’t established that David was a human being yet, let alone a literate person. Then you have the burden to show that David actually wrote some Psalms. If the Bible stories about David and Solomon being as rich and powerful as the Bible says, there should not be such a lack of evidence of their existence.

          I am not convinced that any of the Old Testament was written before the Exile. The evidence points to the whole backstory being invented. The Babylonians had libraries with collections of already ancient writings. The Jews who were in Babylon for decades would have a lifetime to make up stories based on the material in the libraries.

        • Is that how you view history??? How do you know anyone existed?

          Someone in earths history wrote about David. Putting things in writing is the best way to preserve or attempt to preserve a message. Humans “Last Will & Testament” is in writing for this reason. Its written history, from real geographical locations.

          2 Samuel 5:3 So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron; and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the LORD: and they anointed David king over Israel.

          DAVID WROTE
          Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

          In approximate year 1,000, it was predicted in writing.
          Fact check Crucifixion history https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14750495

          When was Crucifixion invented?

        • Ficino

          I have seen the Tel Dan Stele. I enjoyed how it contradicted the account in II Kings.

        • Ignorant Amos

          That’s because the books of Kings and Chronicles are propaganda.

        • David wrote the psalms.

          Citation needed.

        • If David live approx year 1,000 BC (wikipedia)
          &
          Written history says David wrote Psalms 22.

          put 2&2gthr. Just lookup which psalms did david write. 22 fact, David wrote it.

          If psalms 22:16 sounds like Crucifixion, yes it was predicted over several hundred years in advance.

        • Ignorant Amos

          What part of “tradition says David did” does not mean “David did”, is it you are are struggling to understand?

          Some Jewish and Christian traditions consider David the author of the Psalms, possibly all 150 but especially numbers 3 to 41, which are thought to comprise a collection. (They are all psalms of the individual rather than the community.) David is also credited as the author of Psalm 51 and 138-145, among others. Since David is identified as a musician and a singer in several places in the Samuel narrative, the attributions made a kind of sense.

          But there are serious problems with this theory. UC Berkeley Hebrew professor Robert Alter says, “The Davidic authorship enshrined in Jewish and Christian tradition has no credible historical grounding. It was a regular practice in the later biblical period to ascribe new texts to famous figures of the past.” (The Book of Psalms, xv)

          The superscriptions that precede each psalm (e.g. “To the leader: A Psalm of David”) were added much later, even centuries after David’s death, as a way to honor Israel’s most famous king. The Hebrew preposition “l” can, like many Hebrew words, mean a variety of different things. Often translated “of,” it can also mean “to” or “for” (a Psalm for David) or “in the manner of” (a psalm that’s like something David might have written if he were still with us; R.I.P.). In any case, the New Interpreters’ Bible commentary says that such superscriptions “do not identify the author of these compositions, but rather indicate that the psalm is to be associated with these figures in some fashion.” (p. 308)

          And Psalm 22:16 sounds fuck all like crucifixion ya cretin. Unless yer a lying Christer prick.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_have_pierced_my_hands_and_my_feet

          Everytime I see your lies repeated, you’ll be torn a new one.

          You can repeat yer idiotic bullshit lies here until you are blue in the face. Yer chronic stupidity at this point, is embarrassing.

        • So now expand from Wikipedia… Psalms 22:16 is Davids writing.

          The written history is preserved better than any other written history.

        • Greg G.

          Perhaps you missed:

          “The Davidic authorship enshrined in Jewish and Christian tradition has no credible historical grounding. It was a regular practice in the later biblical period to ascribe new texts to famous figures of the past.”

        • Ignorant Amos

          Nowhere on that Wiki page is David’s name mentioned.

          But you’re still not getting it ya soft boy, even if you could produce a signed copy written by David, it still doesn’t say in Hebrew what you want it to say in English ya lying halfwit.

        • Did you miss this, top of page???

          King David” redirects here.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David

        • Ignorant Amos

          Are you so fucking stupid, or is it that you just can’t read for comprehension, or won’t?

          From your source…

          Historians of the Ancient Near East agree that David probably existed around 1000 BCE, but that there is little that can be said about him as a historical figure.

          The authors and editors of Samuel and Chronicles did not aim to record history, but to promote David’s reign as inevitable and desirable, and for this reason there is little about David that is concrete and undisputed.[83] The archaeological evidence indicates that in the 10th century BCE, the time of David, Judah was sparsely inhabited and Jerusalem was no more than a small village; over the following century it slowly evolved from a highland chiefdom to a kingdom, but always overshadowed by the older and more powerful kingdom of Israel to the north.

          Critical Bible scholarship holds that the biblical account of David’s rise to power is a political apology—an answer to contemporary charges against him, of his involvement in murders and regicide.

          The Book of Samuel calls David a skillful harp (lyre) player and “the sweet psalmist of Israel.” Yet, while almost half of the Psalms are headed “A Psalm of David” (also translated as “to David” or “for David”) and tradition identifies several with specific events in David’s life (e.g., Psalms 3, 7, 18, 34, 51, 52, 54, 56, 57, 59, 60, 63 and 142), the headings are late additions and no psalm can be attributed to David with certainty.

          And you are still ignoring the elephant in the room, because that’s the lying weasel Christer that you are…the original text doesn’t say what Christians claim it says…stop the lying ffs.

          I’m taking Ficino’s advice and going to stop feeding your trolling. You’re nothing but a dishonest cunt at this point.

        • Greg G.

          But… but… but… if you type “King David” into the Wikipedia search box, it redirects to the article on “David”. What more proof do you need?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Fuckin’ simple arsehole. Needs a good fuckin’ shoein’ ta sort that shite out.

        • Greg G.

          King David” redirects here.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wi

          “King Cole” directs to the Wikipedia page for “Coel Hen”,
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coel_Hen

          “King Arthur” and “Arthur Pendragon” direct to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur

          “King Elessar” directs to the Wikipedia page for “Aragorn”, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragorn

          I do believe you have invented a new fallacy: The Fallacy of Wikipedia Redirects.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Sherlock Holmes? Dracula? Micky Mouse?

        • Greg G.

          Clark Kent grew up in Kansas. That’s a real place. His space craft crashed into a wheat field. They grow wheat in Kansas. Yep, it all adds up.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Why these fools think that this line of stupidity makes an argument, is telling on just what sort of idiotic thinking we are dealing with.

        • Pofarmer

          We always get a new batch around Easter when they get all het up. But it’s not even close yet. Probably some directive from Trump. “Go ye therefore and be ignorant assholes.”

        • Ignorant Amos

          The Wiki covering Psalm 22 also gives ya a good shafting too.

          Traditionally, their authorship was attributed to King David; however, in scholarly exegesis this attribution has been variously qualified or challenged since the late 19th century. The Hebrew particle le, can mean “for”, “about”, or “by”, so that it remains open to interpretation whether these psalms originate with David, or whether the heading refers, rather, to the chief character of the poetry, as being concerned with Davidic kingship in the narrow sense, or even divine kingship more generally.

          You are sucking up Christer fuckwittery and it’s making you a lying liar for Jesus.

          Furthermore…

          In exegetical scholarship, Psalm 22 is generally regarded as not being of a unified origin. It is understood to have originally consisted of the contents of verses 1-22/23, with verses 23/24-32 comprising a later addition. Further analysis also recognizes verses 4–6 as part of the later addition, and finds a third layer of editorial development in verses 28-32. The exact distinction between the two main parts of the psalm is also controversial, as verse 23 is sometimes counted as a part of the original psalm, but sometimes as part of the later addition.

          The original psalm (v. 2-22/23) is thought to date from the pre-exilic period, that is, before the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BC. The second part, because of the significant rescue of Israel, was probably added only in the post-exilic period. The most recent portion of the composition (v. 28-32), on account of its universalist perspective, is considered to date from the Hellenistic period, likely the late 4th century.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm_22

        • Bogus Amos. Really bad history lesson. Wow, I guess Jesus didn’t exist either?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Really bad history lesson.

          It might not occur to you, but there is no evidence that a king called David wrote the Psalms. Until you can show otherwise, you are just blow brain farts outta yer rectum.

          Wow, I guess Jesus didn’t exist either?

          Have you got evidence that he did?

        • Ficino

          The very wikipedia article you quote says that “no psalm can be attributed to David with certainty.”

        • Yes, clearly, its secular. Written history overcame that lie. Legal documents are in writing. Your last will & testament will be in writing. The point was to show even a NON-BELIEVER, if they are honest, has to say DAVID EXISTED, about 1,000 BC. Even wikipedia did in writing.

          Thank you.

          second paragraph, first sentence.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David

        • Ficino

          Since you reject off the bat a work of scholarship that disagrees with what you want, slandering it as “secular,” it is clear that you are no scholar. You can’t even do justice to Wikipedia when you quote it.

          On top of that, Steven Mackenzie is hardly “secular.” He is a professor of OT and Bible and got his M.Div. at Abilene Christian University. He is a Presbyterian, as far as I know.

          Go away, troll.

          Let’s stop feeding the troll. I’m done.

        • “a scholar” your throwing everything in on one graduate student? You are disregarding written history, the most descriptive of all history kept by man.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Absolute verbal diarrhea.

          You disregard the written “history” of every other woo-woo ya fucking Dime Bar.

          3000 BCE

          Sumerian Cuneiform emerged from the proto-literate Uruk period, allowing the codification of beliefs and creation of detailed historical religious records.

          2494–2345 BCE

          The first of the oldest surviving religious texts, the Pyramid Texts, was composed in Ancient Egypt.

          1700–1100 BCE

          The oldest of the Hindu Vedas (scriptures), the Rig Veda was composed. This is the first mention of Rudra a fearsome form of Shiva as the supreme god.

          1250–600 BCE

          The Upanishads (Vedic texts) were composed, containing the earliest emergence of some of the central religious concepts of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism.

          877–777 BCE

          The life of Parshvanatha, 23rd Tirthankara of Jainism.

          6th to 5th centuries BCE

          The first five books of the Jewish Tanakh, the Torah (Hebrew: תורה‬), are probably compiled.

          https://www.britannica.com/topic/biblical-literature/Old-Testament-canon-texts-and-versions#ref597301

          600–500 BCE

          The earliest Confucian writing, Shu Ching, incorporates ideas of harmony and heaven.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_religion

          You are a bug nutty, batsht crazy, barking at the moon, lunatic creotarded idiot.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Lying.

        • Lark62

          The point is when did translators fudge the translation to fit their narrative.

          That happened circa 100 CE.

        • Unto death? All of them and their families? Year after year? Decade after Decade?

          Only ever been one, Paul believed one; world got turned upside-down Ephesians 4:5 | Acts:17:6

      • no one happily goes to their death because of a made up story.

        • Otto
        • Although those people (it could be argued) honestly believed a story (that happened to be made up by someone else). Joseph Smith, on the other hand, was killed for his beliefs (more or less), and he knew for a fact that they were made up because he invented the story.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Right, so the promise made to Jihadis in Quran is fact?

          Who do you think in the history of Christianity did this?

        • Ficino

          You mean, this is the verse that gave Mark the idea of inventing a story where a guy happily goes to his death?

        • Greg G.

          Mark’s Jesus thinks God has abandoned him. Luke’s Jesus is pretty happy to do it, forgiving everybody involved, seemingly enjoying the attention, happily commits his spirit, and dies.

        • rationalobservations?

          The quotes you reference are not found within the 4th century originated oldest prototype bible and were added by later authors to later versions of bible.

        • Greg G.

          Mark 15:34
          TEXT: “why have you forsaken me?”
          EVIDENCE: S A B C K L P X Delta Theta Pi Psi 059 0112 f1 f13 28 33 565 700 892 1010 1241 Byz Lect most lat vg syr(s,p) cop

          The “S” is the abbreviation for “Sinaiticus” so it is there. It is usually listed first, perhaps always, when the phrase is in the Sinaiticus.

          Luke 23:34
          TEXT: “one on the left. ·And Jesus was saying, ‘Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.’ Now to divide his clothes”
          EVIDENCE: S*,c A C Db E K L X Delta Pi Psi f1 f13 28 33 565 700 892 1010 Byz Lect most lat vg syr(c,p,h,pal) some cop(north)

          Again, the “S” is the first abbreviation. I am not sure what the asterisk signifies.

          Luke 23:46 seems to be in the Sinaiticus. The part about the sun going dark in the previous book is missing in some manuscripts, but the Sinaiticus has it.

        • rationalobservations?

          You mention some areas in which modern bibles are similar to Sinaiticus according to dubious sources you do not reference or link to while appeariung to be waving away the 14,800+ significant differences between modern bibles and Sinaiticus for some reason?

          How does Sinaiticus differ from modern Bibles?

          “The version of the New Testament has some few interesting differences. It includes two works which have since been dropped from both Catholic and Protestant Bibles – “The Shepherd of Hermas”, a heavily allegorical work full of visions and parables and “The Epistle of Barnabas”, which contains highly-charged language about the Jews as the killers of Christ. It also includes entire books which, after the Reformation, Protestants decided to drop from their Bibles: the Old Testament books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Maccabbees 1&2 and large chunks of Esther and Daniel. And the running order of the books is different, reflecting subtle shifts in the priorities of the believers over the ages. The Codex omits the words which Protestants add to the end of The Lord’s Prayer, and Catholics omit: “For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever (Matthew 6:13).

          Other differences include it saying that Jesus was “angry” as he healed a leper, where the modern text says he acted with “compassion”. The story of the stoning of the adulterous woman – “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” is not there. Nor are Christ’s words about his executioners from the cross: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. And its Gospel of Mark ends abruptly after Jesus’s disciples discover his empty tomb – omitting the 12 verses on the appearance of the resurrected Christ – and leaving the disciples exiting in fear. The Codex leaves an unusual blank space where the verses should be. “That’s a very odd way of ending a Gospel,” says Juan Garces, the curator of the Codex Sinaiticus Project.”

          https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/the-big-question-what-is-the-codex-sinaiticus-and-what-does-it-reveal-about-the-bible-1734439.html

          “The text of Codex Sinaiticus differs in numerous instances from that of the authorized version of the Bible in use during Tischendorf’s time. For example, the resurrection narrative at the end of Mark (16:9–20) is absent from the Codex Sinaiticus. So is the conclusion of the Lord’s Prayer: “For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen” (Matthew 6:13). The woman caught in adultery from John 8 is omitted in Codex Sinaiticus. According to James Bentley, Tischendorf was not troubled by the omission of the resurrection in Mark because he believed that Matthew was written first and that Mark’s gospel was an abridged version of Matthew’s gospel. If this were true, the absence of resurrection in Mark would not be a problem because it appears in the older Matthean gospel. Modern scholarship generally holds that Mark is in fact the oldest of the Synoptic Gospels, which could cause theological concerns over the omitted resurrection.

          One other omission in Codex Sinaiticus with theological implications is the reference to Jesus’ ascension in Luke 24:51. Additionally, Mark 1:1 in the original hand omits reference to Jesus as the Son of God.”

          Below, see a visual comparison of these and other differences between the King James Version and Codex Sinaiticus.
          https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-versions-and-translations/absent-from-codex-sinaiticus-oldest-new-testament/

          https://i0.wp.com/restlesspilgrim.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Sinai.jpg?w=960&ssl=1

        • Greg G.

          You mention some areas in which modern bibles are similar to Sinaiticus according to dubious sources you do not reference or link to while appeariung to be waving away the 14,800+ significant differences between modern bibles and Sinaiticus for some reason?

          People have catalogued the differences of verses in the various manuscripts. I Googled one line and the top link was to the page where I got it.

          Here is the home page.
          http://web.ovc.edu/terry/tc/index.htm

          Your graphic says there are 14,800+ significant differences between the KJV and Sinaiticus. Are you backing away from that? The KJV is certainly not considered to be a modern Bible.

          I have no idea why you are posting the rest. Am I supposed to disagree?

        • Ignorant Amos

          Ehrman claims that the differences between the 5700 mss are innumerable even with modern computers.

          He suggests figures in the 100’s of 1000’s.

          Though he admits that most are insignificant, some are not.

          Still, that doesn’t stop a Christer scholar lying about his position on the matter.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EicA4gik6FI

          Anyone whose watched Ehrmans lectures or read his books on the subject will see that liar for Jesus for what he is of course. Something noted in the comments.

        • rationalobservations?

          “Your graphic says there are 14,800+ significant differences between the KJV and Sinaiticus. Are you backing away from that? The KJV is certainly not considered to be a modern Bible.”
          As most even more recent bibles written by men are interpretations of the KJV and it was written 1600 years after the time in which the fictional events within the KJV – I stand by my observations.

        • Greg G.

          Have you observed that parchment decays? Look into it. It happens.

        • rationalobservations?

          Overstating the bleeding obvious, much..?

          Your excuse depends upon only one person observing and recording the existence and fantastical (and very newsworthy) exploits and writing a report that could perhaps be expected not to survive. However: It is claimed that thousands followed and observed the exploits of “Jesus” but we are asked to accept that none of them wrote anything down or passed on their observations of “Jesus” in any tangible way?
          Real historical characters are recorded by countless reports and references to reports and cross references to references of reports. None of which have ever been traced to 1st century origination regarding “Jesus”.
          Especially noticeable people attract much attention and there are usually many artefacts to commemorate them. No such 1st century originated artefacts exist.
          You smugly observe that “parchment decays” and no one disputes this. However the knowledge that Papyri or parchment decays was common to those who recorded important events and people who recorded their observations on clay tablets and even upon copper sheets that have survived yet not one word commemorating the remarkable life and death of “Jesus” was deemed important enough to commemorate in a durable and lasting medium? Really?

          At the most base level, common man creates graffiti lauding or condemning real personalities – yet none regarding “Jesus” and originating from within the 1st century has ever been discovered.

          There is historical evidence of the existence of messiah claimants and their cults and sects that originates from between Circa 8BCE and Circa 140CE. There is no mention of the name “Jesus” (or any actual Hebrew name from which that Greek word may have originated) among them.

          I repeat that a century after the time in which the mythology of “Jesus” is set there is a lot of historical evidence of the messiah claimant “Simon christ”. He was (briefly) acclaimed in Rabbinical as “the” messiah and had coins struck in his honour showing him under the messianic star outside the temple among other artefacts that confirm his existence. There is no evidence of any kind relating to the far more newsworthy and fantastical “Jesus” who appears in much later fabricated legends exclusively but of whom only total historical silence remains.

          It is not only written evidence that is nonexistent. There is no tangible historical evidence whatsoever.

        • Greg G.

          Overstating the bleeding obvious, much..?

          You keep missing the “bleeding obvious”. Merely stating the obvious doesn’t work on you.

          Your excuse depends upon only one person observing and recording the existence and fantastical (and very newsworthy) exploits and writing a report that could perhaps be expected not to survive. However: It is claimed that thousands followed and observed the exploits of “Jesus” but we are asked to accept that none of them wrote anything down or passed on their observations of “Jesus” in any tangible way?

          This is a good example of me not being bleeding obvious enough. I have told you several times that I think Jesus was a myth. Would it help if I put it all caps in bold text? I have explained to you why I think it is a myth.

          I repeat that a century after the time in which the mythology of “Jesus” is set there is a lot of historical evidence of the messiah claimant “Simon christ”.

          So what? Why are you arguing that Jesus didn’t exist with me? Tell me how much I have to overstate that I think “Jesus Christ” was a myth before it gets through to you. Our only disagreement is when the original idea arose. You never support your claims rationally. Your claim that there were no earlier copies of the gospels and epistles before the Sinaiticus is what I disagree with. I have told you this many times. Why isn’t this sinking into your memory?

          If there were many copies of an original made over time and all things being equal regarding the quality of the parchment and the environments where they were kept, which is the most likely to decay first? The answer is the one written on the oldest parchment.

          If the earliest copies were kept by individuals, they might not be kept when the person dies, just thrown out with the personal correspondence or buried with the body. The copy most likely to survive would be after the religion had enough money to build permanent structures. Then they would also have the resources to produce one big collection instead of smaller collections by different copyists over time. The facilities built in dry climates would have the most success at preserving parchment manuscripts. This is why your argument is irrational.

        • rationalobservations?

          “I have told you several times that I think Jesus was a myth.”
          I KNOW! You also argue against religionism and vote up some of my (and other’s) arguments against any validity of religionism.
          Yet you still argue that historical evidence exists of the existence and exploits of “Jesus” but fail to present that evidence.

          I observe the evidence. Why do you continue to speculate about nonexistent evidence?

          If the earliest copies were kept by individuals, they might not be kept when the person dies..”
          Idle and evidence devoid speculation is not evidence, Greg…

          My “argument” is not only based upon the absolute, total and complete absence of any historical texts. I observe that NO tangible historical evidence of any type exists. No inscriptions, no artefacts, no graffiti, NOTHING.

          Keep up the “devils advocacy” as it provides a platform for the demolition of the religionist excuses, speculation, assumption and supposition you recycle. Well done. I am finally in tune with your strategy! Sorry for being so slow on the uptake, my friend.

        • Greg G.

          I KNOW! You also argue against religionism and vote up some of my (and other’s) arguments against any validity of religionism.

          I don’t have anything against you as a person and I very muchagree with most of what you say.

          Yet you still argue that historical evidence exists of the existence and exploits of “Jesus” but fail to present that evidence.

          I observe the evidence. Why do you continue to speculate about nonexistent evidence?

          If the NT was forged in Sinaiticus, as I understand your argument, I would expect there to be epistles more aligned to the gospels, an epistle that mentioned that Jesus was from Galilee, for example. They should all be more like 1 Timothy and 2 Peter with some kind of connection to the gospels without the distinct differences to other epistles that claim to be written by the same person.

          Idle and evidence devoid speculation is not evidence, Greg…

          No, it is an observed behavior. Personally cherished keepsakes become so much junk when the house must be cleaned out.

          My “argument” is not only based upon the absolute, total and complete absence of any historical texts. I observe that NO tangible historical evidence of any type exists. No inscriptions, no artefacts, no graffiti, NOTHING.

          You are ignoring that the texts themselves imply a history. The Epistle of James appears to be a response to Galatians while Romans has responses to James. There are manuscripts that are dated earlier than Sinaiticus by the same method that dates Sinaiticus. Vaticanus, also from the 4th century, has over 3000 differences with Sinaiticus just in the gospels.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_codices_Sinaiticus_and_Vaticanus

          The answer below makes some interesting points about the differences.
          https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-differences-between-Codices-Sinaiticus-and-Vaticanus

          About the graffiti, there is the Alexamenos graffito.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

          Here it says there is a graffito that says “Alexamenos fidelis” and that it is considered to be a reply to the mocking. I think the mocking is a reply to the claim of “fidelis”.
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito#%22Alexamenos_fidelis%22

          This has a few more that are dated to the third century.
          https://ucatholic.com/blog/6-oldest-images-lord-jesus-christ/

          Keep up the “devils advocacy” as it provides a platform for the demolition of the religionist excuses, speculation, assumption and supposition you recycle. Well done. I am finally in tune with your strategy! Sorry for being so slow on the uptake, my friend.

          Challenges are a good thing. It makes us grow. I prefer not to have the same argument with no new information.

        • rationalobservations?

          “If the NT was forged in Sinaiticus, as I understand your argument…”
          What!? Where have I ever asserted anything like that?

          I observe ONLY that 4th century fabricated Sinaiticus is the oldest Codex (book form) NT bible and that it is significantly different from later versions including being different in over 14,800 ways from the early 17th century King James Version and that in view of the total and complete absence of evidence of the existence of “Jesus” from within the 1st century – there is no evidence of the validity of Sinaiticus or the very different later bibles written by men.

          The existence of small fragments of papyri with some references to the mythology of “Jesus” that date from shortly prior to the fabrication of Sinaiticus hint at the probable 3rd century or possibly mid to late 2nd century origins of the mythology of a god-man called “Jesus”. But that sort of speculation is for others while I prefer to keep to the known and evidence supported facts wherever possible. Especially because religionists are notorious for imagining an inch and turning it into several imaginary miles.

          I agree that challenge are good things and researching many of the challenges of religionists regarding their imagined “1st century originated evidence of Jesus” (Tacitus, Josephus etc et al) has resulted in the evidence of 4th century and later origination of all significant christian texts and propaganda I reference on a daily basis in these discussions and debates.

          Regarding the Alexamenos graffito: This appears to be aimed at one of the many historical messiah claimants or another politically deluded claimant to Hebrew kingship? The subject of the graffito is someone named Alexamenos.There is nothing to directly link it to a person named “Jesus” any of the later written legends of “Jesus”.

          We agree on much and I am happy to continue with that agreement and not “sweat” anything over the small stuff.
          Best wishes and thanks for the stimulation of the challenge that I am glad appears to be based upon the misunderstanding I hope has now been clarified by my opening responses and other content in this entry?

          A reminder of the “Alexamenos graffito” that is an inscription carved in plaster on a wall of an ancient Roman school, Palatine Antiquarium. It dates from c. 1st to 2nd C. AD. The drawing showing a person worshipping a crucified ass.
          https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OOAYt-R8U7A/UU8zy1fI7uI/AAAAAAAAAVw/oIv5IovTKCQ/s640/alexamenos1.jpg

        • Greg G.

          The existence of small fragments of papyri with some references to the mythology of “Jesus” that date from shortly prior to the fabrication of Sinaiticus hint at the probable 3rd century or possibly mid to late 2nd century origins of the mythology of a god-man called “Jesus”. But that sort of speculation is for others while I prefer to keep to the known and evidence supported facts wherever possible. Especially because religionists are notorious for imagining an inch and turning it into several imaginary miles.

          Those fragments are evidence that the mythology of Jesus was already in existence but do not say that it was immediately before the time the whole manuscript was written.

          There is nothing to directly link it to a person named “Jesus” any of the later written legends of “Jesus”.

          The crucifixion scene is a link to Christianity. There is evidence of many second century Christianities.

        • Lark62

          Tell that to the followers of Jim Jones, and countless religions and religious frauds.

          The human ability for self delusion knows no bounds.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          No one goes happily to their death AT ALL, unless they’re in intolerable pain.

          Surely you can do better than THAT??!!

        • Who says the gospel story is made up?

    • Otto

      Wow, Christians reinterpreted another religion’s holy book and shoehorned it to fit their own. How could we not be impressed?

    • Lord Backwater

      “Dog” appears in the New Testament (KJV) only 9 times. All are in parables. There are no literal dogs appearing in the crucifixion saga. So you have proved the gospels wrong. Congratulations!

      For your next task, you need to establish the link between “piercing of hands and feet” to crucifixion. There was no mention of actually nailing anyone to a board, was there? Once again, you have proved the gospels wrong.

      Confirmation bias

      • Ignorant Amos

        Not a problem anyway. There was plenty of crucifying going on in Babylon at the time the Jews were exiled there..and when the Psalms were being authored.

        • Look into Crucifixion history before you re-tell it Medical Journal link here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14750495

          Psalms 22 was written in Davids lifetime approx 1,000 bc. Facts Secular source, David existed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David

          Factual Artifact show Pontius Pilate was in fact the governor, during Jesus lifetime. Secular Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone

        • Greg G.

          Here is what Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance says about the word translated as “pierce”:
          The KJV translates Strong’s H3738 in the following manner: dig (12x), make (2x), pierce (1x), open (1x).

          Nowhere else is it translated as “pierced”.

          The Jewish translation to English has nothing like that.

          Psalm 22:26 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
          For dogs have encompassed me; A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

          As for the word translated as “pierced” in Zechariah 12:10 is translated as “thrust through” 8 out of 11 times in the KJV, Once it is “wounded” and once it is “stricken”.

          Zechariah 12:10 (JPS Tanakh 1917)
          And I will pour upon the house of David, And upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, The spirit of grace and of supplication; And they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; And they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, And shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

          Those are two different words used multiple times that Christian translations are made to say “pierce” when neither word is translated that way anywhere else in the Old Testament. The words “machats” and “naqab” are translated as “pierce” twice each and “pierce through” one each, so if the writer meant “pierce”, he could have used a word that means it.

        • Otto

          Are you seriously saying words were sometimes translated differently in an effort to fit a preconceived narrative? Who would do such a thing? Certainly not pious religious folk…they would never…I mean it just boggles the mind.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          Interesting that this has yetto garner a response from Mr. Search. I wonder why that is…..

        • Greg G.

          Come to think of it, I searched for every use of the word “pierce” with a wild card for the ending in three translations and found no other word in that verse that is ever tranlated as any form of “pierce”.

          We expect that when they allow theologians to translate religious literature.

        • Greg G.

          The Psalms weren’t written in David’s lifetime. David’s status appear to be exaggerated by the authors who wrote about him.

          Mark appears to have used Josephus’ Jewish Wars in his composition. Mark did not give Pilate’s first name and Jewish Wars only gives his name as Pilate. Luke used Josephus’ Jewish Antiquities a lot and mentions Pontius Pilate along with several other names found in Jewish Antiquities, which includes the name “Pontius Pilate”, but he still used only “Pilate” where Mark did.

        • Ficino

          Pilate was governor? Really? Wow, I thought that was all made up. So, wait, now, so Mark used the historical Pilate as a character in the fiction he wrote about a dude who got crucified (applying OT verses he read)? Makes sense.

        • Ignorant Amos

          You’re a dopey tit.

          Look into Crucifixion history before you re-tell it Medical Journal link here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go

          I used that source to support my argument ya asinine dickhead.

          Probably originating with the Assyrians and Babylonians, it was used systematically by the Persians in the 6th century BC.

          You do know who freed the Jews from Babylonian captivity in the 6th century BCE, right? It was a Gentile guy called Cyrus the Great who God made his Messiah…if ya want to believe the fuckwittery that is. Don’t ya even read your scripture, Mr. ScriptureSearch?

          Cyrus the Great respected the customs and religions of the lands he conquered. This became a very successful model for centralized administration and establishing a government working to the advantage and profit of its subjects. In fact, the administration of the empire through satraps and the vital principle of forming a government at Pasargadae were the works of Cyrus. What is sometimes referred to as the Edict of Restoration (actually two edicts) described in the Bible as being made by Cyrus the Great left a lasting legacy on the Jewish religion. According to Isaiah 45:1 of the Hebrew Bible, God anointed Cyrus for this task, even referring to him as a messiah (lit. ‘anointed one’) and he is the only non-Jewish figure in the Bible to be called so.

          But this is all academic and moot. Psalm 22:16 is a mistranslation then re-interpretation for Christer propaganda.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_have_pierced_my_hands_and_my_feet

          Go away and learn something.

          Psalms 22 was written in Davids lifetime approx 1,000 bc. Facts Secular source, David existed https://en.wikipedia.org/wi

          Try reading yer own source ya moron.

          Yet, while almost half of the Psalms are headed “A Psalm of David” (also translated as “to David” or “for David”) and tradition identifies several with specific events in David’s life (e.g., Psalms 3, 7, 18, 34, 51, 52, 54, 56, 57, 59, 60, 63 and 142), the headings are late additions and no psalm can be attributed to David with certainty.

          Hoist by yer own petard

          You’re an idiot. From your own source it can’t be verified that David even existed. And if he did, he certainly didn’t exist as described in the OT.

          Facts secular source…

          https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-meet-the-real-king-david-the-one-the-bible-didn-t-want-you-to-know-about-1.7062754

          Factual Artifact show Pontius Pilate was in fact the governor, during Jesus lifetime. Secular Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wi

          You’ve gone full fuckwit. Does the existence of Joseph Smith during the time of the angel Moroni justify belief in the angels existence?

          How about Sherlock Holmes? Queen Victoria was a real monarch, and Baker Street a real place in London, so Holmes was a real person, right?

          Nicholas and Perenelle Flamel are mentioned in the Harry Potter series, and you do know that you can visit what is probably the most well known railway platform in the world that doesn’t even exist, Platform 9 ¾ at Kings Cross Station? That must mean a boy wizard really saved the world from the evil Lord Voldemort.

          Don’t be such a fucking idiot.

          Fucking know nothing Christers, ave shit’em.

      • You set the bar and then jump over it.

        humans crucifying pierces hands and feet, does it not? or do k-9’s?

        • rationalobservations?

          There is a fable that didn’t make it into any of the many diverse and very different versions of bibles.

          Jeebus revisited his old hangouts and was rejected by all who saw no reason to believe his ridiculous claims so he decided to recreate his famous walking on water trick.
          Out he went in a small boat and as he stepped over the side he immediately plunged NB under water and nearly drowned but for being yanked out by the laughing boatman he hired for the demonstration.

          When he managed to stop laughing, the boatman asked what Jeebus could imagine had gone wrong?
          Jeebus thought for a moment and said: I didn’t have these holes in my feet last time.

    • Otto

      I perused your website and can best describe it in 3 words.

      Pure. Comedy. Gold.

      Well done sir, well done.

      • I’m sure you’re laughing with him, not at him.

        • Otto

          When Chevy Chase tripped over a chair and face planted we were doing both…I think this is similar.

          With profundities like this who could not?

          The resurrection of Jesus is a factual historical event occurring approximately 33 years after the time change from BC to AD, Jesus birth reset time, a fact we can observe on earth to this day.

        • Wow. What’s the opposite of a “keeper”?

        • Lark62

          “Loser”?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I’d go with ‘rubbish’ or ‘sewage’.

        • Greg G.

          What’s the opposite of a “keeper”?

          Chucker.

        • Greg G.

          I’m Chevy Chase and you’re not.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          Lol!

        • yes, 2020 years after what?

        • Raging Bee

          Um…a new calendar is not “resetting time.” If it was, then the Romans “reset time” every time they adjusted their calendars to cover for their Senate’s missing their budget deadlines.

        • Greg G.

          2020 years after the mistaken guess about when Jesus was born.

          Most of the days of the week are named for Norse gods. Saturday is named for a Roman god. Many of the months of the year are named for Roman gods.

          Our calendar is based on myths.

        • Otto

          2020 is the 1495th anniversary of a Christian changing the calendar.

          While that is quite impressive…it is not exactly explainable by Jesus’ birth…more that 525 years later someone was overly impressed.

          Your God can’t seem to do much without human intervention.

        • rationalobservations?

          2020 years after the time in which the myths and legends of Jesus written in the oldest 4th century fabricated bible are back dated to and merely set but from which time no historical evidence has ever been discovered.

          Never be embarrassed by your ignorance. Questions are the solution to your ignorance. You will need to address your arrogance and gullibility yourself.

        • Ignorant Amos

          SS is no longer ignorant. Stupid is the correct terminology. When the ignorant are informed, but insist on repeating the same asshattery, they move from ignorance to stupid.

        • Your Bible has 2 claims about the birth year of Jesus, and they conflict.

          Praise the Lord for his perfect holy book!

        • rationalobservations?

          Always bearing in mind that the “1st century” only became known as the “1st century” at what at the same time became known as the “8th century”.

        • Otto

          Yes….there is that….lol

          Well God told em to change it in the 8th century…so same difference

        • rationalobservations?

          Actually it was a batty old 6th century monk who devised the prototype of the modern BCE/CE calendar and it took nearly 200 years for it to slowly become widely adopted.

        • Ignorant Amos

          And according to the story, Jesus was born before 4 BCE….or 10 years later during the census of 6 CE…but that doesn’t phase the eelits.

          The other issue is that it thoroughs Bishop Ussher of Armagh’s calculations out somewhat.

          4004 BC – specifically, on the evening before October 23rd. But October didn’t exist back in the day. Aul Ussher wasn’t without his detractors.

          https://www.irishtimes.com/news/how-an-archbishop-calculated-the-creation-1.378556

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          LOLno

        • Ignorant Amos

          No //s tag again Bob?

        • I figured the sarcasm was obvious.

      • Ignorant Amos

        The cretin really believes that mindwankery.

        We are fucked as a species while these folk are able to procreate.

        • Pofarmer

          Unfortunately, they procreate in large numbers.

        • rationalobservations?

          That’s the bad news.
          The good news is that the offspring of religionists are seeing through the garbage their parents buy into and millennials and gen Z are the least religious folk in all the history of our so very recently evolved species of ape.

        • Pofarmer

          The ones that are left tend to be more extremist.

        • rationalobservations?

          The last ditch may be infested with delusional fanatics but they habituate the last ditch and are not being replaced by their better educated and more rational offspring.

          How long will it take before the non-religious secular majority enact their democratic rights as the large and growing majority?

        • Pofarmer

          Not soon enough.

        • rationalobservations?

          The fragile bubble of religIonism has suddenly burst in many places. Wales and Ireland were far more religious than England until very recently when the population recognised the corruption and dishonesty of religion and are now as non religious and secular as the larger population of the UK.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Except here in Northern Ireland…though it’s a bit better than it was, the religious still grip the place. That’s party politics for ya.

        • rationalobservations?

          Even there the decline is rapid and accelerating:

          “Northern Ireland is secularising. 9% said they had no religion in 1998. This rose to 19% by 2017. 15% said they were religiously unaffiliated in the Republic of Ireland in 2018.

          81% of Catholics in the north said they attended mass regularly (at least monthly) in 1998, falling to 52% in 2017. A rapid decline. The figure is even lower – 34% – in the Republic of Ireland.

          Amongst Protestants in Northern Ireland, 52% attended church regularly in 1998, dropping to 43% in 2017. So decline is less rapid. But there’s a lower baseline. Also of note, is a very dedicated core of evangelical Christians (21% of all Protestants in 2004).”

          Outside of the Census, statistics on weekly Mass attendance have revealed an overall decline over the last 30 years, which is most marked in urban areas. A 2006 Poll conducted by the Irish state broadcaster RTE revealed that 48% of those surveyed attended mass at least weekly, as compared to 81% in 1990. A 2011 Survey found weekly attendance rates in the Dublin area to be 14%.

          As part of the European Social Survey in 2010, Roman Catholics in Ireland were questioned on their church attendance patterns:
          Over the period 1972-2011, weekly church attendance by Irish Roman Catholics fell from 91% to 30%.

          https://faithsurvey.co.uk/irish-census.html

      • Raging Bee

        Another crank trying to quote the Bible to prove the Bible, and acting like he’s the first Christian to ever do this.

        And taking pics of Bible pages that he’s scribbled his oen notes in? That’s about as pathetic as Lori Alexander’s schoolgirl-script notebooks.

  • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

    May the light of Reason fill your eyes and mind and save you from all error of believing without evidence.

  • NSAlito

    No omniscient god would create a Bible with contradictions of any sort…

    Hey, omniscient doesn’t mean not a smartarse.

  • Bobby,

    What approximate year did David live on Earth?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David
    (Second Paragraph, First Sentence)

    • Otto

      Let me guess…you agree with the experts there, but not with the last line of the same paragraph…right?

      • Secular say’s david existed.
        Davids writings, including Psalms 22:16, predicted the future in writing.

        2+2

        • Otto

          1) You didn’t answer the question.

          2) Psalm’s 22:16 predicted nothing of the sort that you say.

          Just because you, for some odd reason, think the Bible proves the Bible doesn’t mean that it does.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c6ad9baa6ce8ec1f95ac3c77c352bd3fc55e532eeab30a0ce6c176c74a787258.jpg

        • Otto,
          Modern science says, life is in the blood. Would you agree or disagree?

          Link https://www.fi.edu/heart/its-alive

        • Greg G.

          No. Biological life is in the cells. Psychological life is in the brain function.

          Blood is interchangeable with compatible bllod types.

        • Greg G.

          I didn’t disagree with you. I am just saying that it is a stupid statement to make. Saying blood has life is like saying water is wet. It is not a profound statement because nearly every cell in your body is alive.

          The OT people thought blood was magical, that it had the power to transport sin or disease away. They thought killing one animal and sprinkling its blood around, and on a similar live animal, which was released, carried away mold or sin. It’s the whole Yom Kippur (Atonement Day) ritual.

        • Reference to OT magical blood?

        • Greg G.

          The Yom Kippur ritual is in Leviticus 16:5-22. The remedy for house leprosy is Leviticus 14:33-53.

          If you are going to make others look up verses for you, you should change you Disqus ID.

        • nothing “magical” referenced.

        • Greg G.

          The scraping and plastering the house might be effective to rid a house of mold. The incantations, killing a bird, sprinkling blood around, and releasing the other bird do nothing to solve the mold problem. It’s just a magic trick to give the impression that the blood does something magically to carry away the mold. Don’t you see that?

          That is all the Atonement Day ritual is. It is supposed to take away imaginary sins by magic.

          You do realize that magic is imaginary, don’t you?

        • calling a duck a goose Greg, thanks for that.

        • Greg G.

          Do you actually believe that blood can be a conduit to transport mold or sin away as per Leviticus? That is just hocus pocus.

        • Surely SS will respond by throwing down the gauntlet and performing the experiment. When he succeeds, maybe that will shut you up!

        • Greg G.

          I hope his home insurance will cover the damage if his experiment doesn’t work.

        • Well, acts of God and all that. Maybe this would count. After all, God never does anything.

        • 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

        • Greg G.

          We know you have problems making the distinction between reality and your imagination. Do you understand the difference between reality and metaphor?

          Have you ever been covered in blood? If so, whose blood was it? If it wasn’t Jesus blood, then it is a metaphor.

          Leviticus talks about the literal blood of animals being a conduit to carry disease and sin away. Do you believe that bird blood can literally do that?

          That is a question that can be answered with a “yes” or a “no”, or even a qualified “yes”. A reply in the form of a metaphor is insufficient.

        • Greg, the reality of the cross….

        • Greg G.

          That’s another metaphor. The cross is part of the fictional stories.

          The extrabiblical evidence of Jesus is too late to be of value and is nothing but proof that there were second century people who believed one or more gospels, or blatant interpolations.

          The gospel evidence has no eyewitnesses despite what Luke said or thought. Mark is a fictional story that combines OT passages with passages from Greek literature. The Feeding of the 5000 (and the 4000, as well), for example, combines 2 Kings 4:42-44 about Elisha feeding 100 people and the feasts Telemauchus, Odysseus’ son in The Odyssey, who attended two feasts one of which had 9 ranks of 500 men. I am omitting the details because I don’t want to be up all night including them and I have done it a number of times in this forum already. But that story is actually absurd while the other three gospels which shows their reliance on Mark.

          So you shouldn’t read the gospels back into the epistles. The early epistles only refer to Jesus in Old Testament terms, not as a first century person. Jesus was invented as an ancient person who was long dead and buried. I have already showed you how 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 comes from Isaiah 53 and Hosea 2.

          Someone told the Galatians that Jesus was not crucified so Paul went on a rant in Galatians 3 to explain how he knew Jesus was crucified. He quotes many OT verses to make his case, plus some fallacious logic. But the Galatians apparently knew James and Peter. Why didn’t Paul just say to ask them? Paul claimed that his knowledge was not inferior to the superapostles’ knowledge. If they knew Jesus, how could he make such a bold claim? It has to be that he knew they never claimed to know a first century Jesus.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Don’t you see that?

          Ya know yer dealing with a full on Dime Bar here, right?

        • Otto

          Oh cripes…

          I had to deal with a Christian this week that thinks rent doesn’t apply to him because God told him so, nor any other laws because he is his own country. You aren’t related by chance are you…?

        • Pofarmer

          The nuttiness with U.S. Christians is getting really bad.

        • Is it too much to hope that this is a sign of the death throes of evangelical Christianity? Or am I deluding myself?

        • Pofarmer

          They’re certainly brain dead. But you still have to he careful of recently dead things thrashing around.

        • epeeist

          Is it too much to hope that this is a sign of the death throes of evangelical Christianity?

          I don’t know whether it is the same in the US as it is over here. We have had a collapse of what one might call the “more reasonable” versions of Christianity. Some 31% of the population of England identified as CofE in 2002, in 2016 that was down to 14%. CofE attendance in 2017 was down to 722,000 or about 1.5% of the population.

          This has meant that the previously more marginal denominations, the Baptists and the Pentecostals, are much more visible than they used to be. There may or may not be more of them but they are much more aggressively evangelical than the more traditional denominations.

        • Yes, there’s a push to the extremes here as well.

          I hope that the northern European trend is one that the US is following.

        • Your link says that blood has living cells in it. Yup, that’s just one of many places in the body that have living cells. You’ve proven nothing.

        • Raging Bee

          “Secular say’s” lots of people exist, but that doesn’t mean anything they ever wrote is true.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Davids writings, including Psalms 22:16, predicted the future in writing.

          Nope. Now you are just being a lying Christer liar.

        • Wikipedia said David is real, which is secular.

          Davids writings, about 1,000 BC, some of the best kept history in writing, you deny.

          Did you now they found 95% pure sulphur here, millions of pieces…

          https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=31.378725315051046%2C35.47042425578445&spn=0.205389%2C0.274658&z=11&source=embed&mid=1Or3mRYYKzCIx20aNpXJZ8RrjmGM

        • Greg G.

          Wikipedia said David is real, which is secular.

          Historians of the Ancient Near East agree that David probably existed around 1000 BCE, but that there is little that can be said about him as a historical figure. It was initially thought that there was no evidence outside of the Bible concerning David, but the Tel Dan Stele, an inscribed stone erected by a king of Damascus in the late 9th/early 8th centuries BCE to commemorate his victory over two enemy kings, contains the phrase in Hebrew: ביתדוד‎, bytdwd, which most scholars translate as “House of David”. Ancient Near East historians generally doubt that the united monarchy as described in the Bible existed.
          [Emphasis added]

          The Tel Dan Stele only says “house” and “David”. It could refer to a temple to some deity named “David”, a warlord named “David”, or some outhouse named “David”. But if historians doubt the monarchy existed, then they doubt there was a “King” David.

        • Best way to learn about David, just read what he wrote, its very personal. Over 50 Psalms.
          Best way to learn about people, read what they wrote, consider the body of work.

        • FACTS… the REAL DAVID, 1,000BC ALIVE ON EARTH DAVID, WROTE THIS…
          Psalms 22:16

          pierced my hands and my feet

        • Greg G.

          No, he didn’t. That’s English and that language wasn’t around then. The Hebrew version of the verse doesn’t have a word for “pierced”.

          You have been told this repeatedly. You no longer have ignorance as an excuse. You are either dishonest or stupid, so there is no reason for you to be here.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Both, SS is both dishonest and very, very stupid.

        • Greg G.

          But… but… butt… I was using the inclusive “either”.

        • Greg G.

          Best way to learn about David, just read what he wrote

          You are fooling yourself.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Indeed.

          Does the Tel Dan Inscription ‘Prove’ David to Be a Historical Person?

          Nope.

          https://vridar.org/2011/07/19/does-the-tel-dan-inscription-prove-david-to-be-a-historical-person/

          Also…

          As an alternative, Francesca Stavrakopoulou remains sceptical about the significance and interpretation of the inscription and claims that it does not necessarily support the assumption that the Bible’s David was a historical figure since “David” which can also be translated as “beloved” could refer to a mythical ancestor.

        • Ignorant Amos

          I can’t help you with your stupidity, but we can do something about that ignorance.

          My I suggest a book?

          The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Sacred Texts

          In this groundbreaking work that sets apart fact and legend, authors Finkelstein and Silberman use significant archeological discoveries to provide historical information about biblical Israel and its neighbors.

          In this iconoclastic and provocative work, leading scholars Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman draw on recent archaeological research to present a dramatically revised portrait of ancient Israel and its neighbors. They argue that crucial evidence (or a telling lack of evidence) at digs in Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon suggests that many of the most famous stories in the Bible—the wanderings of the patriarchs, the Exodus from Egypt, Joshua’s conquest of Canaan, and David and Solomon’s vast empire—reflect the world of the later authors rather than actual historical facts.

          Challenging the fundamentalist readings of the scriptures and marshaling the latest archaeological evidence to support its new vision of ancient Israel, The Bible Unearthed offers a fascinating and controversial perspective on when and why the Bible was written and why it possesses such great spiritual and emotional power today.

          Wikipedia said David is real,…

          I could give zero fucks what Wikipedia says if it can’t be corroborated. The issue isn’t if David existed, the issue is about who he was and what is written about him. What is written about him in the buybull is fiction. Biblical scholars have been aware of this for a long time now.

          …which is secular.

          There was a Christer prick on here a while back who demonstrated that’s wrong. He regularly amended Wiki pages to suit his narrative. Which wasn’t secular. Wikipedia is authored by the community, many of whom are not secular.

          Davids writings, about 1,000 BC, some of the best kept history in writing,…

          No, they are not. There are no 10th century BCE biblical writings in existence. You can’t support that assertion, because that’s not what the scholarly body of evidence points to.

          https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.premium.MAGAZINE-meet-the-real-king-david-the-one-the-bible-didn-t-want-you-to-know-about-1.7062754

          …you deny.

          Yeah, me and a whole host of scholarly experts that know about such things.

          Did you now they found 95% pure sulphur here, millions of pieces…

          And what?

        • Amos, they found bodies at Sodom too… not just the 95% pure sulfur

        • Ignorant Amos

          And what?

          They found bodies at Pompeii. Does that mean the eruption that killed them was caused by a defeated giant that had been buried there by the gods.

          This was a bad portent indeed, given that one standard explanation for the volcanoes of south Italy was that, when the gods defeated the rebellious giants and brought peace to the universe, they buried them beneath the mountains, and that it was their stirrings that caused the eruptions.

          There are natural explanations for all sorts of supernatural myths ya onionhead.

          Christer fuckwits are asserting Gods hand in today’s natural disasters, why would less educated fuckwits be different thousands of years ago?

          It’s called divine retribution.

          https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Divine_retribution

          The dopey bastards have jumped on the coronavirus bandwagon already.

          https://www.themonastery.org/blog/the-eleventh-plague-pastor-claims-coronavirus-gods-punishment-for-sin

          The S & G myth in the buybull was not a divine retribution ya soft idiot.

          https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2018/11/29/is-the-biblical-destruction-of-sodom-and-gomorrah-based-on-a-real-life-impact-event/

        • The dopey bastards have jumped on the coronavirus bandwagon already.

          Just like US televangelists will do the next time there’s a big hurricane to explain.

          Golly, sometimes I’m so proud to be an American.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Oh…Islamic fuckwits are there too.

          https://www.nst.com.my/world/world/2020/02/563686/outrage-singapore-ustaz-says-coronavirus-gods-punishment-chinese

          But Christer fuckwittery is more relevant in this instant.

        • rationalobservations?

          ….. and the rest of us are so happy not to be American, Bob.
          Best wishes and much sympathy to all Americans.

        • One additional insult (off topic) is that all the US deaths from COVID-19 so far (6 people) are in the Seattle area. The first 2 (at least) died in the hospital where I get my medical care.

          In about a week, things around here have gone from this virus being an abstract concept to shelves cleared of every relevant medical supply–thermometers, zinc lozenges, etc.–even down to bottled water (huh??). Look at the parking lot of the Costco near me, and you’d think it was the Saturday before Christmas.

        • rationalobservations?

          The panic may be worse than the epidemic for most people and the WHO revealed today that more people die each day from TB than have died worldwide from Covid-19.

          All the same it’s a real worry for those over 65 or with an underlying chronic lung condition or disfunctional immune system.
          Good luck and stay well my friend.

  • rationalobservations?

    Discussion of “the” bible begs the question “which bible?”
    The oldest 4th century prototype Codex Sinaiticus?
    Or the 17th century KJV that has over 14800 differences from the prototype?
    Or one of the many other diverse and different bibles in circulation today?

    Of course, we could always check the authentic and original first century originated historical evidence of Jesus and his adventures – but NONE has ever been discovered…

    • Raging Bee

      No, no, you gotta use the FAITHFUL ENGLISH VERSION like ScriptureSearch guy does!

      • rationalobservations?

        That’s just yet another human written, historically unsupported, historically inaccurate, internally inconsistent, internally contradictory and scientifically absurd book of myths legends and lies.

        • Greg G.

          So just like every other Buybull with a different language, a few different silly stories, and the rest is the same silly stories

        • rationalobservations?

          There are over 14800 differences between the oldest 4th century fabricated bible (Codex Sinaiticus) and the KJV. That includes two whole books from the prototype that are excluded from those in circulation today and almost endless additions that appear in modern bibles that are not found in the prototype.

        • Greg G.

          The KJV was constructed from a few Greek manuscripts and some places were constructed from the Latin Vulgate. All manuscripts are different so, naturally, the KJV is different from the Sinaiticus. It is not like either is inspired.

          Modern Bibles rely heavily on the Sinaiticus. If a passage is included that is not in the Sinaiticus, it is likely they have older manuscripts with that passage. There is no reason to think the Sinaiticus was ever perfect.

        • rationalobservations?

          You agree that all versions of bibles are clearly the work of men, botany of the undetectected and undetectable gods and goddesses invented by mankind.

          I don’t make any claims po f authenticity for Sinaiticus or Vaticanus. Only that no historical bibles have ever been discovered that predate them.

          Your speculation regarding older extant texts is unsupported by the existence of older texts since the fragments and scraps of Papyrus have been forensically dated to origination near to the time that Sinaiticus and Vaticanus were written in the late 4th century

        • Greg G.

          The manuscripts are dated paleographically, the same way the Sinaiticus is dated. There are manuscripts that date earlier than the Sinaiticus. If you reject the dates of those manuscripts, then you cannot have a date for the Sinaiticus, either.

        • rationalobservations?

          All of the “P” classification of ancient papyri has long been the subject of scientific and forensic controversy.
          P52 was long claimed to be the oldest reference to “Jesus” and christian religionists still claim it to have originated in the mid second century – which even if it was true is hardly evidence of people and events claimed to have occured over 100 years earlier within which time not a single contemporary mention of the existence and remarkably newsworthy and notable adventures of “Jesus” are claimed to have taken place but of which no historical trace exists.

          I wonder which manuscripts you claim to have originated within the first century or significantly before Sinaiticus bearing in mind that P52 and P46 etc et al are now dated to fabrication no earlier than the 3rd century and more likely near contemporaries with Sinaiticus and Vaticanus?

          https://www.academia.edu/436092/The_Use_and_Abuse_of_P52_Papyrological_Pitfalls_in_the_Dating_of_the_Fourth_Gospel

          http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2018/04/larry-hurtado-on-p52.html

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rylands_Library_Papyrus_P52

          https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/JRL19060215.jpg/250px-JRL19060215.jpg

          https://assetsnffrgf-a.akamaihd.net/assets/m/2015245/univ/wpub/2015245_univ_cnt_1_xl.jpg

        • Greg G.

          All of the “P” classification of ancient papyri has long been the subject of scientific and forensic controversy.

          The “P” stands for “papyrus”. It just tells you the material the writings are on.

          I wonder which manuscripts you claim to have originated within the first century or significantly before Sinaiticus bearing in mind that P52 and P46 etc et al are now dated to fabrication no earlier than the 3rd century and more likely near contemporaries with Sinaiticus and Vaticanus?

          The dating for P46 was first dated to the second half of the third century, then to the first half of that century, and now to about 200 AD. Even that is not considered to be the original manuscript.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46#Date

        • rationalobservations?

          “The “P” stands for “papyrus”. It just tells you the material the writings are on.”
          Overstating the bleeding obvious? Really?

          “The dating for P46 was first dated to the second half of the third century, then to the first half of that century, and now to about 200 AD. Even that is not considered to be the original manuscript.”
          There is no evidence to confirm that the oldest extant papyri or manuscript is NOT the original. Only assumption, presumption, supposition and 1600 years of christian propaganda would not have it so.

          We have been over this before without any substantive evidence of the existence of any earlier bible than Sinaiticus or any evidence of Jesus from within the 1st century and I am still not sure what point you are failing to make(/) – but you appear to be in thrall to religionist propaganda as much as the most devout and delusional religionist, Greg

          https://i0.wp.com/restlesspilgrim.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Sinai.jpg?w=960&ssl=1

        • Greg G.

          “The “P” stands for “papyrus”. It just tells you the material the writings are on.”
          Overstating the bleeding obvious? Really?

          When you opened with “All of the “P” classification of ancient papyri has long been the subject of scientific and forensic controversy,” what is one supposed to think? If you meant, “The dating of ancient papyri has long been the subject of scientific and forensic controversy,” you should have typed something like that instead. The cumbersome and redundant grammar seemed to be from a confused person.

          There is no evidence to confirm that the oldest extant papyri or manuscript is NOT the original.

          So what? We have been over this too many times. That means the Sinaiticus is the LATEST possible date for the individual documents, not the earliest. It is irrational to think the original manuscript is the most likely one to survive for centuries.

          but you appear to be in thrall to religionist propaganda as much as the most devout and delusional religionist, Greg

          That is just how history is done.

        • rationalobservations?

          “That means the Sinaiticus is the LATEST possible date for the individual documents, not the earliest. “
          Really? How do you work that out.
          The oldest extant text somehow morphs into the latest??

          I have agreed with so much that you have written against religionism – but find this departure from evidence and logic puzzling.

        • Greg G.

          Really? How do you work that out.
          The oldest extant text somehow morphs into the latest??

          Suppose you wrote something when you were age 20, then made a copy of it every year . Then something happened and all but the last one was destroyed or decayed.

          If you make more copies, is the earliest surviving copy, the original?

        • rationalobservations?

          “Suppose you wrote something when you were age 20, then made a copy of it every year . Then something happened and all but the last one was destroyed or decayed.”
          That is a most unlikely situation – but I would know of the original and the authenticity (or alterations) made to the “copies”.
          No such knowledge or evidence exists for the earliest known oldest extant bibles.

          “If you make more copies, is the earliest surviving copy, the original?”
          The oldest extant text remains the oldest extant text. All else is speculation, assumption and supposition without evidence of “origination” or prior identical texts from which the oldest text may be confirmed as a copy of an earlier but nonexistent text.

          (Shame on you for this ridiculous charade, Greg. I expected better of and from you.)

          Next..?

          https://i1.wp.com/36.media.tumblr.com/de1f373a2f3a8ecfe11a70c6dde0ead2/tumblr_o3nch6g75k1rpw0zao1_1280.jpg
          https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FKxKMTv5kKI/UJ_u61RU5rI/AAAAAAAABsk/uCBFlOlhp30/s1600/487863_227759457347086_778655360_n.jpg

        • Greg G.

          That is a most unlikely situation – but I would know of the original and the authenticity (or alterations) made to the “copies”.
          No such knowledge or evidence exists for the earliest known oldest extant bibles.

          You would know but nobody else would. It would be foolish for anybody else to think the earliest surviving copy would be the original document. Now that is analogous to the situation we have. You have no idea how many copies came before Sinaiticus.

          The date of the earliest manuscript gives the latest possible date of the original. A reference to some event in the narrative gives the boundary for the earliest possible date, since the writing would have to be written after the event.

          The oldest extant text remains the oldest extant text. All else is speculation, assumption and supposition without evidence of “origination” or prior identical texts from which the oldest text may be confirmed as a copy of an earlier but nonexistent text.

          (Shame on you for this ridiculous charade, Greg. I expected better of and from you.)

          Next..?

          Right, but the oldest extant text does not tell you that it is the original document. To believe that is your ridiculous charade.

          We do have manuscripts dated earlier than Sinaiticus using the same dating method.

        • rationalobservations?

          “It would be foolish for anybody else to think the earliest surviving copy would be the original document.”
          It would be foolish to make any assumptions regarding the possible existence of earlier “copies”/versions or that the earliest extant text bore any similarity to (nonexistent) assumed / presumed “prior versions”.

          “You have no idea how many copies came before Sinaiticus.”
          Exactly so! No one knows if there was anything identical to Sinaiticus that dates from prior to the fabrication of Sinaiticus because there is no evidence of the existence of an earlier NT bible.
          There IS evidence of many later diverse and different versions of NT bibles and of the 14,000+ differences in content order and style of the 17th century KJV when compared to the 4th century Sinaiticus.

          “…but the oldest extant text does not tell you that it is the original document.
          Of course not!! (back to the “bleeding obvious” yet again!).
          The absence of any earlier documents confirms the oldest to be the oldest. Any speculation as to the possible existence and content of nonexistent “previous” texts is spurious and unsupported by evidence.

          We do have manuscripts dated earlier than Sinaiticus using the same dating method.
          I have never disputed the existence of fragmentary scraps of texts similar to small sections of Sinaiticus. I observe it to be unique as the oldest extant book form NT bible and that the Papyrus fragments are controversially dated by religionists earlier than they are dated by more recent forensic analysis. Not one of the papyri has been confirmed as originating earlier than the 3rd century and scientific opinion dates them very much closer to Sinaiticus than to the time in which the myths and legends of “Jesus” are back dated to and in which they are merely set in total absence of a single item of tangible 1st century originated evidence.

          You appear to accept that 4th century fabricated Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are in fact the oldest bible codices?
          You appear to accept that 4th century fabricaated Sinaiticus and Vaticanus are different in content to each other and significantly different in content to the 17th century KJV and other more recent bibles?

          What exactly do you dispute and upon what grounds (and why) do you dispute it?

          https://i0.wp.com/restlesspilgrim.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Sinai.jpg?w=960&ssl=1

        • Greg G.

          The absence of any earlier documents confirms the oldest to be the oldest.

          The absence of any earlier documents confirms the oldest to be the oldest still in existence.

          FTFY

          Any speculation as to the possible existence and content of nonexistent “previous” texts is spurious and unsupported by evidence.

          It’s like asking why there are so few monkey fossils. They live in jungles which are notoriously poor at preserving fossils The Sinaiticus was found in a place in a desert which is an ideal environment for the preservation of parchment, which means one should be cautious about pronouncing that there would have been no earlier parchments written and stored in other environments.

        • rationalobservations?

          “The absence of any earlier documents confirms the oldest to be the oldest still in existence.”
          Yes! Yes! Yes! When have I asserted otherwise?
          As the oldest extant – NO speculation upon the existence or content of any supposed previous versions is possible since no previous versions exist.

          The survival of Sinaiticus is as much due to it being constructed of VELUM not parchment. The treated leather known as velum is much more durable than parchment, paper or papyri and also allowed for the Circa 800 years of alterations allowed by scratching words and sentences off and rewriting new versions in place plus the deletions, editing and amendment that scholars have observed to be present within Sinaiticus. It was a drag for those of us wishing to view and study Sinaiticus to obtain special permission and to trek into London for that purpose. Since 2008, Sinaiticus has been available for study ONLINE so anyone can view the many pages and those with a better knowledge of 4th century Roman “Greek” as written by the scribes who wrote this tomb in the late 4th century may also contribute to the ongoing translation of the book that continues apace…

          http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7651105.stm

          https://www.ancientpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/oldestbiblelent3.jpg

        • Greg G.

          As the oldest extant – NO speculation upon the existence or content of any supposed previous versions is possible since no previous versions exist.

          This is where our disagreement is. Being the oldest manuscript does not mean that every document in it doesn’t have a line of copied predecessors any more than the oldest person in the world is proved to be an ancestor to every other living person.

          The survival of Sinaiticus is as much due to it being constructed of VELUM not parchment.

          The Bible [Codex Sinaiticus] was written by hand on parchment in the middle of the fourth century around the time of Constantine the Great.
          http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/project/conservation_report.aspx

          Parchment has been made for centuries, and is usually calf, goat, or sheep skin. The term vellum from the French veau refers to a parchment made from calf skin.
          https://www.archives.gov/preservation/formats/paper-vellum.html

          If the older copies were on papyrus, there is less reason to expect them to survive as long a parchment in a dry climate.

        • rationalobservations?

          “The term parchment is a general term for an animal skin which has been prepared for writing or printing. Parchment has been made for centuries, and is usually calf, goat, or sheep skin. The term vellum from the French veau refers to a parchment made from calf skin.”

          “Codex Sinaiticus consists mostly of the text of the Septuagint, the Greek-language Bible. Some 800 of the original 1,400 handwritten vellum pages remain.”
          – Encyclopaedia Britannica https://www.britannica.com/topic/Codex-Sinaiticus

          “Being the oldest manuscript does not mean that every document in it doesn’t have a line of copied predecessors any more than the oldest person in the world is proved to be an ancestor to every other living person.”

          Back to overstating the bleeding obvious and are you serious, or is this what we Brits call a “wind up”, Greg??

          The origins of the 4th century Roman religion they called christianity and late 4th century originated oldest bible are the subject of speculation since the 600+ mythological texts that are rumoured to have existed regarding the legends of “Jesus” were apparently systematically destroyed when the oldest bible content was decided upon. I have read of legends that had baby “Jesus” flying around “Mary’s”head and slaying dragons. I don’t however deal in rumours or assumptions or presumptions or supposition of any type.

          There is some evidence of non “Jesus” messiah claimants and their messianic cults. There is no historical trace of a messianic cult of “Jesus” from any time within the first century.

        • Greg G.

          Back to overstating the bleeding obvious and are you serious, or is this what we Brits call a “wind up”, Greg??

          You have argued strongly that the whole Sinaiticus was written from scratch. I dispute that as a reasonable conclusion. The basis of your argument is that the Sinaiticus is the oldest surviving version of the documents in it, when it actually isn’t, according to the dating method employed by NT scholarship, which is lousy.

          Yes, the Sinaiticus is the oldest complete Bible and the oldest complete New Testament compilation. That does not mean that the NT documents contained within are not copies of earlier manuscripts, any more that the Septuagint contained within did not come from copies.

          The Sinaiticus NT is more than complete in that it has non-canonical documents. Why were those not copied into other NT collections?

          There is no historical trace of a messianic cult of “Jesus” from any time within the first century.

          2 Corinthians mentions Aretas controlling Damascus. If this is correct, then it refers to Aretas III which puts the author in the early first century BC. If this is incorrect, it is likely a geographical error since Aretas IV controlled an area contiguous to Syria for nearly 50 years in the first century. If one was unsure of who was in control of a city in that vicinity, Aretas would have been the most famous name to guess.

          Either way, if the letter still existed in the fourth century, and those written in the same style, it would imply a continuous historical trace from the time of its origin.

          Some passages of the Gospel of Mark appear to make an appeal to Vespasian propaganda (spit miracle healing a blind man, for example) that would be familiar to those who lived during that era, so it does connect to the first century.

          Josephus tells us that the Jews expectation of a Messiah coming soon may have been a factor in starting the war. He also says people were being urged to remain under siege in Jerusalem to wait for salvation from the Lord.l Josephus reports nothing about whether the expected Messiah had a name but if a particular cult read Zechariah in the Septuagint, they may well have had the name “Jesus”.

          So your claim that there is no historical trace of a Jesus cult in the first century is incorrect. There certainly was a Messiah cult in the first century.

        • rationalobservations?

          “You have argued strongly that the whole Sinaiticus was written from scratch.”
          NO! But: This total misunderstanding explains much regarding the cause of your straw man argument against this straw man of your own interpretation of my observations that:
          1) The Codex Sinaiticus is the oldest extant (existing) book form bible and it dates from the late 4th century.
          2) There is no historical evidence of the existence or later written exploits of “Jesus”.

          I have never asserted that Sinaiticus was “written from scratch“.

        • Greg G.

          I have never asserted that Sinaiticus was “written from scratch”.

          You didn’t assert it but it is the only thing left after your denials of everything. I pointed out that the formatting of the Sinaiticus shows that it was not a first draft so that there must have been earlier versions but you wouldn’t even concede that. If you won’t admit to earlier drafts of each and every document, then we must conclude that it was all written from scratch.

          But if you admit there were earlier drafts than no longer exist, then there could be earlier versions that no longer exist. But then you want to say that line of reasoning is mere speculation.

          No, it’s a reasonable conclusion from the evidence.

        • rationalobservations?

          “You didn’t assert it but it is the only thing left after your denials of everything.”
          What “denials”? Your excuse for your lack of understanding of plain English and resort to the kind of assumption that religionists use to excuse their god delusion is rather pitiful. It’s similar to the non-argument that since there is no evidence of the nonexistence of the gods, one/some/all of them may be assumed to exist?

          ” I pointed out that the formatting of the Sinaiticus shows that it was not a first draft so that there must have been earlier versions but you wouldn’t even concede that. If you won’t admit to earlier drafts of each and every document, then we must conclude that it was all written from scratch.”
          All I point out is that NO significant EVIDENCE exists of the existence and nature of any supposed prior texts from which Sinaiticus (and Vaticanus) were cobbled together in the mid to late 4th century.

          “But if you admit there were earlier drafts than no longer exist, then there could be earlier versions that no longer exist.”
          “Admit”? Really??
          I consider that previous mythologies were incorporated into the myths, fables and legends of the apparently fictional “Jesus”. The nature of some of those fables are known, others are mere speculation. I prefer evidence supported facts to mere assumption, presumption, supposition and speculation of the kind that has propped up fraudulent businesses of religion for far too long.

          “But then you want to say that line of reasoning is mere speculation.”
          Just so.

          “… it’s a reasonable conclusion from the evidence.”
          And the circular non-argument turns full circle and once again begs the question: WHAT EVIDENCE!?

          https://i0.wp.com/restlesspilgrim.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Sinai.jpg?w=960&ssl=1

        • Greg G.

          All I point out is that NO significant EVIDENCE exists of the existence and nature of any supposed prior texts from which Sinaiticus (and Vaticanus) were cobbled together in the mid to late 4th century.

          I see you have add “significant” to your claim of “NO EVIDENCE”. That is an improvement.

          I consider that previous mythologies were incorporated into the myths, fables and legends of the apparently fictional “Jesus”. The nature of some of those fables are known, others are mere speculation. I prefer evidence supported facts to mere assumption, presumption, supposition and speculation of the kind that has propped up fraudulent businesses of religion for far too long.

          There is evidence within the text. Consider 1 Corinthians 10:14-22. It develops a pattern of telling the reader what to do or not do, followed by questions, and then an answer to the last question using the same metaphors as the question. But the answer to the third set of questions does not follow the question “Are we stronger than he?” But we find the rest of the pattern in 1 Corinthians 11:30-31. That is an indication of an interpolation seam. The intervening text appears to come from other sources. For example, 1 Corinthians 11:23-25 is similar to the gospels account of the Last Supper that is similar to Luke’s version of the Eucharist. There is a twenty word phrase in Greek between 1 Corinthians 11:24-25 and Luke 22:19-20 that differs only by one transposed word. Taking out the transposed word, the passages share a ten word phrase used nowhere else in the New Testament, a six word phrase used nowhere else in the New Testament, and a three word phrase used one other place in the New Testament, the third place being in the very next verse in 1 Corinthians.

          That is evidence that 1 Corinthians was altered with text from Luke, so both existed before Sinaiticus. Luke used lots of Mark verbatim, so Mark existed before Mark. It appears that Luke used Matthew, too, so Matthew existed before Luke. Matthew used lots of Mark verbatim, so Mark existed before Matthew and Luke.

          It is not like this is the only such example in the texts. But it is significant evidence of the existence and nature of the texts prior to the time of the Sinaiticus.

          I consider that previous mythologies were incorporated into the myths, fables and legends of the apparently fictional “Jesus”. The nature of some of those fables are known, others are mere speculation. I prefer evidence supported facts to mere assumption, presumption, supposition and speculation of the kind that has propped up fraudulent businesses of religion for far too long.

          We have no evidence of those myths, fables, and legends. But we have manuscripts that show a history of editing and re-editing. I do not think the Jesus character came from legends. The character was created through literature. The Jews had an idea of a Messiah from their scriptures and literature. Cephas, James, and Paul were among the Jews who came up with the Messiah having lived centuries earlier, according to their reading of the Jewish scriptures, especially the Suffering Servant. Mark used the literature of the day to come of with a Jesus character of first century Galilee, perhaps as a fictional story for amusement, possibly mocking the Jewish Messiah, after the war. But the believers took it from there.

        • rationalobservations?

          “I see you have add “significant” to your claim of “NO EVIDENCE”. That is an improvement.”
          I see that you nor anyone else has presented any evidence of any kind that references the existence of “Jesus” and originates from within the 1st century. That is predictable and expected.

          The rest of your non-evidence is a diatribe of references to the content of a bible that has no corroboration in historical evidence.

          Once again it appears that you fall into the religionist’s trap of failing to validate, justify or defend the diverse and very different, confused and internally contradictory, historically inaccurate and historically unsupported, scientifically absurd content of any bible by quoting that content of a book you apparently recognise is fiction not fact?
          https://i1.wp.com/36.media.tumblr.com/de1f373a2f3a8ecfe11a70c6dde0ead2/tumblr_o3nch6g75k1rpw0zao1_1280.jpg
          https://i0.wp.com/restlesspilgrim.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Sinai.jpg?w=960&ssl=1

        • Greg G.

          I see that you nor anyone else has presented any evidence of any kind that references the existence of “Jesus” and originates from within the 1st century. That is predictable and expected.

          Internal evidence is evidence.

        • rationalobservations?

          Inconsistency and contradiction between (and within) all the diverse and very different human authored bibles that have appeared since the oldest was first cobbled together in the 4th century render all versions of bibles far from evidence and more accurately described as human authored fiction.

          https://i0.wp.com/restlesspilgrim.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Sinai.jpg?w=960&ssl=1
          https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FKxKMTv5kKI/UJ_u61RU5rI/AAAAAAAABsk/uCBFlOlhp30/s1600/487863_227759457347086_778655360_n.jpg

        • Greg G.

          The inconsistencies appear in the manuscripts before the fourth century. Why would there not be fourth century inconsistencies?

        • rationalobservations?

          Codex Sangallensis 1395, the Earliest Surviving Copy of the Vulgate Gospels

          “Codex Sangallensis 1395 designated by Σ, is the oldest surviving Latin manuscript of the New Testament in the Vulgate translation by Jerome, who was commissioned by Pope Damasus IOffsite Link in 382 to make a revision of the old Latin (Vetus Latina) translations. The manuscript was written at Verona on vellum in half-uncial in the early fifth century, and contains marginalia which have been related to notes added to an earlier exemplar probably by Jerome, and by a second unknown scholar.”

          http://www.historyofinformation.com/detail.php?entryid=3957

        • Greg G.

          Thank you for the information. I am not sure if you are making a point.

          Codex Sangallensis 1395, the Earliest Surviving Copy of the Vulgate Gospels

          If the original documents were written in Greek and the Vulgate is not in Greek. A copy of a translation is far less reliable than a copy of a copy.

        • rationalobservations?

          Your emphasis on superfluous additional words is puzzling.
          Codex Sangallensis 1395 is the Earliest and oldest known fabrication of the “Vulgate Gospels”.
          Any assumptions, presumptions, suppositions or alternative propaganda fails to modify or contradict that absolute evidence supported fact.

        • Greg G.

          It contains a COPY of the Vulgate, not Jerome’s handwriting.

        • rationalobservations?

          Prove that?

  • Ficino

    I think it’ll be a good idea not to feed the troll anymore.

    • Ignorant Amos

      But it’s funny watching the fuckwittery the daft bastard keeps spewing.

      • Amos, they found millions of pieces of sulfur here…95% pure.
        look into it. shorturl.at/zENQ7

        • Greg G.

          Where is the evidence that there was ever a Sodom and a Gomorrah? The sulfur there is a geologic formation from Lake Lisan, an earlier sea like the Dead Sea. The destruction of two cities likely comes from campfire stories of ancient shepherds to explain the sulfur formations.

        • What about all the bodies they found too?

        • Greg G.

          Don’t you ever do any actual research?

          https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-sites-places/biblical-archaeology-sites/ancient-worlds-largest-cemetery-identified-at-biblical-zoar-ancient-zoora/

          The ancient city of Zoar buried their dead there from 3100 to 2600 BC, way too early for Abraham and Lot, then the Nabateans buried their dead there from the first century BC to the fourth century AD, way, way too late for Abe and Lot.

          Are you getting your information from https://www.holylandsite.com/sodom-gomorrah ? It seems to be a site for selling tours to gullible religious nuts. You should find a credible source to verify anything you read there.

        • Ignorant Amos

          What about all the bodies they found too?

          Found where?

          Where is it and what happened?

          Archaeologist Steven Collins , using information from the Bible and archaeological evidence from the site of Tall el-Hammam in Jordan, suggested that he located Sodom to the northeast of the Dead Sea. However, his suggestion has not been accepted by other biblical archaeologists for two reasons: a) geographical misplacement and b) chronological misplacement. Therefore, if Tall el-Hammam is indeed Sodom then the Bible cannot be used as a rule for accurate dates and locations.

          Another, more popular, opinion is that the cities of Bad dh-Dhra and Numeira, which are the only known inhabited towns in the region of the Dead Sea for the period of time between 3000 BCE and 1000 BCE, could be the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah respectively. Both of these towns were simultaneously destroyed at the end of the Early Bronze III period by an enormous fire so big as to create debris three feet thick. The question here is what could have caused such destruction? The excavations in the area point to falling burning debris. This is where geologist Frederick Clapp suggests that a release of the subterranean substance called bitumen (a derivative of petroleum) during an earthquake may account for the debris. According to his theory, it ignited in the air and led to a shower of flaming debris that destroyed both of the cities.

          Another theory that has created debate between archaeologists is based on an Assyrian clay tablet showing that an asteroid may have destroyed the two cities. A Sumerian astronomer inscribed this Cuneiform clay tablet around 700 BCE. It shows the trail of an asteroid hitting Kofels in Austria around 3000 BCE, which also may account for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

          A natural explanation is preferred over a supernatural explanation, everytime.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Evidence of Sodom? Meteor blast cause of biblical destruction, say scientists

          https://www.timesofisrael.com/evidence-of-sodom-meteor-blast-cause-of-biblical-destruction-say-scientists/

          I live 56 miles from the Giants Causeway. I’ve seen it regularly with my own eyes. Does that mean it was built by a Celtic giant?

          You need to wise up.

          Thor is the god of thunder. I hear thunder regularly too. Thor must exist.

          Ancient folk blaming natural stuff on supernatural fuckwitery is universal.

          Quit being a dopey dick.

  • Johanan

    Is Jesus on every page of the Bible? Most in the Christendom do not believe that. Although Jesus believes that. He actually said something like that on His first Sunday He came back from grave.

    “And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: ….. And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulcher, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
    Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b498ae05548b054796104600ba65da1354fcc5f14df04e295609152af56c1522.jpg

    And they drew nigh unto the village, where they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. (Luke 24)

    • Ignorant Amos

      You’re wasting your time.

      We don’t believe the nonsense is anything more than a story in a book. And you can’t demonstrate it to be anything other than that.

    • Greg G.

      And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

      That’s a hyperbolic statement added to the summary of a fictional story in a fictional story.

    • Raging Bee

      “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”

      He made the Old Testament all about himself? That must have been a fun lecture for his followers to sit through in a desperate pretense of rapt attention…

      • Johanan

        ” ….. and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

        And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.” (Luke 24)

        Their heart (one heart as in unity) was warm (Joy and happy Jesus is alive) and they walked back to Jerusalem (7 miles after dark) to tell the twelve. The church of Christ was started on a good day, the Resurrection Sunday for eternal future!

        • Ignorant Amos

          If all you’ve got is preaching, that will get you banned short shrift…and rightly so.

        • Greg G.

          and he vanished out of their sight.

          When you read things like that, you should understand that you are reading fiction.

        • Johanan

          That is the real spiritual thing. And not just one time. These happened so many times.

          John the apostle wrote this “Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” ….. Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.” (John 12)

          When did Isaiah saw Jesus more than 700 years before Christ? “In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”

          And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
          Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.” And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”….. (Isaiah 6)

        • Greg G.

          That is the real spiritual thing. And not just one time. These happened so many times.

          Yes, and Harry Potter cast a lot of spells. But not really.

          John the apostle wrote this “Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” ….. Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.” (John 12)

          But look what else Isaiah said:

          Isaiah 45:1-5 (NRSV)1 Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus,    whose right hand I have graspedto subdue nations before him    and strip kings of their robes,to open doors before him—    and the gates shall not be closed:2 I will go before you    and level the mountains,I will break in pieces the doors of bronze    and cut through the bars of iron,3 I will give you the treasures of darkness    and riches hidden in secret places,so that you may know that it is I, the Lord,    the God of Israel, who call you by your name.4 For the sake of my servant Jacob,    and Israel my chosen,I call you by your name,    I surname you, though you do not know me.5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;    besides me there is no god.    I arm you, though you do not know me,

          Cyrus the Great was God’s anointed, his Messiah. Cyrus freed the Jews from Babylon. Well, the upper class of Jerusalem, anyway.

          When did Isaiah saw Jesus more than 700 years before Christ?

          The last book of the Old Testament to be written was the Chronicles so these are the last two verses of the Old Testament:

          2 Chronicles 36:22-23 (NRSV)22 In the first year of King Cyrus of Persia, in fulfillment of the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord stirred up the spirit of King Cyrus of Persia so that he sent a herald throughout all his kingdom and also declared in a written edict: 23 “Thus says King Cyrus of Persia: The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has charged me to build him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Whoever is among you of all his people, may the Lord his God be with him! Let him go up.”

          The Old Testament is not about Jesus, it’s about Cyrus.

          If Isaiah wrote 700 years before the first century AD, then he was writing before Cyrus was born. Christians say that “Immanuel” is close enough to “Jesus” so it’s a prophecy. But Isaiah gives the name of “Cyrus” as the Lord’s anointed.

        • Johanan

          Nice point. Ok, Cyrus is also a picture of Christ. Thank you. Cyrus is dead and did not rise from death. he did not save any from death and sin. he saved the Jews in his reign. he was the savior of his Jews in his generation. limited edition savior.

          And Jesus is the Christ. Amen. He is the savior of the world. I am also dead, buried and risen already with Christ my LORD. Joy and peace for eternal life. Hahaha!

          LORD Jesus, bless GG and his house with healing, peace and salvation. In thy name I also pray for all readers who amen this. Amen again. Amen.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Yip…Rorschach Buybull reading means everyone and anyone can read whatever pish, stuff, and nonsense, that floats their boat, in the texts. And they do.

          Even Christers admit it’s a trend and problem.

          For some, it would take a large dose of humility to admit what Thomas F. Torrance states, “On a dualist basis of thought it is rather easy to bend the evidence to suit what we want to make of it, or at least to fit it into our preconceived framework of thought.”

          https://www.renewal-fellowship.ca/9/

          Though atheists have a better grip on the problem.

          Religion is like a Rorschach test. The content of the Bible — or any other sacred text — is essentially meaningless. It can be interpreted in an almost infinite variety of ways. And the way it’s interpreted says more about the interpreter than it does about the jumbled mess on the page. (And yes, I know that actual Rorschach tests are considered unreliable by many psychologists. I’m using them as a metaphor here.) ~ Greta Christina

          https://www.alternet.org/2012/07/is_religion_a_rorschach_test/

          Just like the ink blot tests, the people that read this are projecting their own thoughts on the page. Each person that reads this carries their own baggage and predispositions. Each individual, instead of receiving the advice from a higher power, is reflecting their own thoughts back on the words they read and lock on, without a cursory glance at the entire picture. How do we know?

          We know because there are over 30,000 denominations of Christianity. Gay is good or bad, abortion good or bad, cracker really Jesus or symbology, handle snakes or not, speak in tongues or not, Disney is evil or not, evolution or not, women can talk or not, cut hair or not, shave or not, cars or horse buggys, pope or the other pope, self-flagellation or not, etc ad nauseum. But every one of these groups has the exact same book. Same book, 30,000 different answers. This is not a clear instruction book. This is not a clear moral book. This is not a clear…. ANYTHING book. It is a mess of contradictory stories, tribal wars, and ancient morality that has been sold as a divinely inspired work.

          https://thespartanatheist.wordpress.com/2018/05/16/the-bible-is-a-rorschach-ink-blot-test/

          The God Virus, once the victim is fully infected, it allows for all sorts of irrational thinking.

        • Greg G.

          Ok, Cyrus is also a picture of Christ.

          Jesus is just an imitation of Cyrus, with a lot of exaggeration of OT stories. For example, Elisha fed 100 and had leftovers. Jesus fed 9000 and had leftovers.

          Cyrus is dead and did not rise from death.

          Rumors of Cyrus’ death are greatly exaggerated. He lives. You just have to believe.

        • Johanan
        • Greg G.

          Do you also think all of those John the Baptist skull relics scattered across Europe were authentic? How about all of those splinters of the cross? They say that so many Christian churches had one of those that collectively, they could rebuild Noah’s Ark.

        • TheNuszAbides

          Cyrus freed the Jews from Babylon. Well, the upper class of Jerusalem anyway.

          After having them updated to [round-about-monotheism-if-you-give-Ahriman/Satan-some-special-classification], of course. And just in time for so-and-so to “find” The Book of The Law to “refresh” the cultural “memory”!

          Still crawling through Holy Fable; could’ve sworn Price cast aspersions on even the idea of a specific “exile” in v.1 but now having a Devil of a time finding any pullquote to that effect.

        • Ignorant Amos

          After having them updated to [round-about-monotheism-if-you-give-Ahriman/Satan-some-special-classification], of course. And just in time for so-and-so to “find” The Book of The Law to “refresh” the cultural “memory”!

          King Josiah of Judah, the lost messiah of Israel, and his Deuteronomic Reform. That put the kibosh on the polytheism the Hebrews at the time were into. Well, for most anyway.

          https://www.jstor.org/stable/41304187?seq=1

        • TheNuszAbides

          Or a maybe-eyewitness account of a fairly skilled magician!

        • Raging Bee

          And your point…?

        • Johanan

          My point is that Jesus is the Christ. Amen. He is the Savior (Messiah) of the world.

          LORD Jesus, bless RB and her house with healing, peace and salvation.Amen.

        • Raging Bee

          Ah, just christurbating I see.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Yep…just another knuckle-dragging preaching Christer arsehole.

    • Greg G.

      I should have posted this comment here: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2020/02/which-is-worse-an-abortion-clinic-shooter-or-the-clinic-itself-2-of-2/#comment-4808063593

      Ezra, Isaiah, and 2 Chronicles wrote a lot of sweet nothings about Cyrus the Great. Perhaps it was he who the prophets going back to Moses were writing about.

      • Greg… quick question. What year did Israel become a nation, most recently?

        • Greg G.

          Irrelevant. The prophecies were fulfilled by Cyrus the Great. The 20th century events were attempts to fulfill stale, already fulfilled prophecies.

    • rationalobservations?

      We KNOW the mythology written by anonymous religionist scribes centuries after the time in which it is merely set.
      Why is there no non-mythological evidence in support of the mythology?

      https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FKxKMTv5kKI/UJ_u61RU5rI/AAAAAAAABsk/uCBFlOlhp30/s1600/487863_227759457347086_778655360_n.jpg
      https://i1.wp.com/36.media.tumblr.com/de1f373a2f3a8ecfe11a70c6dde0ead2/tumblr_o3nch6g75k1rpw0zao1_1280.jpg