Yeah, This Oughta Help

Yeah, This Oughta Help April 11, 2012

As if the Trayvon Martin killing isn’t generating enough heat, now a group of armed neo-Nazis are patrolling the streets of Samford, Florida in order to protect white people in what they see as a likely race riot. The Miami New Times reports:

Neo-Nazis are currently conducting heavily armed patrols in and around Sanford, Florida and are “prepared” for violence in the case of a race riot. The patrols are to protect “white citizens in the area who are concerned for their safety” in the wake of the Trayvon Martin shooting last month, says Commander Jeff Schoep of the National Socialist Movement. “We are not advocating any type of violence or attacks on anybody, but we are prepared for it,” he says. “We are not the type of white people who are going to be walked all over.”

Because nothing diffuses racial tension like gun-toting racial separatists patrolling an already on-edge community.

Schoep, whose neo-Nazi group is based in Detroit, tells Riptide the patrols are a response to white residents’ fears of a race riot.

Wonderful. That’s sure to improve the situation. To make things worse, Pam Spaulding reports that the local Fox TV affiliate referred to them as a “civil rights group” on their website. Because Nazis are all about civil rights.


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  • To make things worse, Pam Spaulding reports that the local Fox TV affiliate referred to them as a “civil rights group” on their website. Because Nazis are all about civil rights.

    I just bruised both my face and my palm in a freak “what the fuck?!?” accident.

  • eric

    It occurs to me that FL Stand Your Ground law + FL history of vote suppression = very bad November 6. All we need is groups like this patrolling around voting stations. Even if no violence happens, it may be a highly effective way of suppressing minority votes even further than normal.

  • Reginald Selkirk

    I hate Illinois Nazis.

  • F

    Why is that even legal?

    I wonder how other wandering groups of armed people would be treated.

    How about groups of armed Black people?

    These idiots are the race riot. Groups of people with an attitude intent on expressing how dangerous they are is just a riot before the action starts.

  • suttkus

    It’s Sanford, not Samford. Trust me, I have to live near it.

  • If a Jew managed to shoot some of these armed Nazis, would he/she get a free pass under the “stand your ground” law?

    Speaking of which, here’s an article about how inconsistently such laws are applied:

    http://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/when_stand_your_ground_fails/

    Like some of us already predicted, black people who claim self-defense aren’t treated teh same as white people who do the same. What a surprise this isn’t!

  • cgilder

    Gawker says the source has printed a retraction & that it’s safe to assume the story was false:

    http://gawker.com/5900035/armed-nazis-hope-to-keep-sanford-safe-for-white-people?tag=georgezimmerman

  • harold

    Interesting how the Trayvon Martin situation developed.

    At first, the few people who commented on it were as horrified as I was, even if they identified themselves as gun owners, conservatives, etc. A few people like Spike Lee predictably acted moronic, but most people seemed to understand that a moronic reaction to an unjust situation doesn’t change the fact that it is an unjust situation.

    Then President Obama made a sympathetic comment to the parents, after being heavily, heavily pressured by the media.

    Then the right wing media went into action, spewing about “Jesse Jackson”, demonizing Trayvon Martin (who had no history of violence or theft but a couple of trivial disciplinary issues), spinning Zimmerman’s questionable-seeming (to me) claim that his armed stalking resulted in him being attacked (a case he has every right to make – in court, before a jury and/or judge) as incontrovertible fact and full justification for the killing, etc.

    And they were winning.

    But they forgot one thing. Racists and Nazis are like religious fanatics. They’re proud of what they are, and if you try to get them to go along with a “let’s pretend you’re not really a Nazi to make Obama look bad, wink, wink, wink” game, it won’t work, because they WILL NOT be able to pretend that.

    So now we’ve got empowered-feeling Nazis and racists, and Zimmerman’s crazy web site, among other things.

    (I have no idea whether Zimmerman is of Jewish descent; many people with that surname are. It adds irony to the situation if he is.)

  • I’m sure they got it all wrong and that there’s nothing to worry about. You see it’s really the National Bocialist Party (led by that nice Mr. Hilter)!

  • A lot of weird stuff is happening in this case, especially with regards to Zimmerman’s behavior, which is not doing him any favors. Yesterday, his lawyers announced that they were quitting because he won’t return their messages. They also revealed that he went and did an interview with Sean Hannity against their wishes. Then Zimmerman starts a website soliciting donations for his legal defense, and on the website he posts a picture of where someone vandalized a black community center (in an entirely different state) spray painting the words, “long live Zimmerman”.

    The neo-Nazi thing at least is not Zimmerman’s fault (so far as we know), but it’s almost as if the guy is trying to become a right-wing racist martyr.

  • To make things worse, Pam Spaulding reports that the local Fox TV affiliate referred to them as a “civil rights group” on their website. Because Nazis are all about civil rights.

    To be fair, they labelled themselves as a “white rights” group. And since the people at Fox believe that white people are the real victims of racial prejudice, this made perfect sense to them.

  • kirk

    The TV station that called them a civil rights group later said it made an error and meant to say something to the effect that the group “calls itself” a civil rights group. As someone who works in TV, I can visualize how this mistake could happen, though it does display a shocking degree of sloppiness and unprofessionalism. It can’t by itself be used to label those at the TV station as racists, just stupid and sloppy.

    It should also be noted that local Fox affiliates can’t be tied in to FOX News in terms of their political leanings. Like any TV station, the local Fox affiliate in any given market will position itself in a way to get an audience.

    This can mean appealing to a demographic on either side of the political aisle or to a specific age or other demographic group. It’s not always the case that the local Fox affiliate will be the right-leaning local news station, especially since local stations overall tend to not be as partisan as some national news networks or local newspapers.

    This very well could be a right-leaning local news station, but this anecdote only serves to provide evidence of sloppiness and poor newsroom management.

  • John Hinkle

    Slightly off topic: WaPo says Zimmerman will be charged… if they can find him.

  • The link to the local Fox affiliate isn’t working anymore.

  • The Nazis are now saying the retraction is false and that they really are there.

    http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/04/neo-nazi_patrolman_gives_inter.php

  • bahrfeldt

    “The neo-Nazi thing at least is not Zimmerman’s fault (so far as we know)”

    His mother is Latin, they do not consider his desires.

  • Classic Nazi stupidity and cowardice:

    Of course, bearing the swastika, people confuse us with some of the other knucklehead groups that just run around acting like fools.”

    Yeah, they’re NOT AT ALL similar to the morons they emulate! And they’re shocked SHOCKED that the public would associate them with other people who wear the same symbol, spout the same hateful nonsense, idolize the same genocidal failed tyrant, affect the same fake-macho pseudo-military mannerisms, and otherwise, by some totally unexpected coincidence, look, sound and act exactly like them.

    Oh, and they showed up to show their presence and deter violence — but only two of them wanted to be photographed. I can’t see Russia from my house, but I can hear the noise in their heads from here…

  • The great thing about having Hitler as your idol is that it’s so easy to emulate his cowardice and phony innelekshalism. People who idolize, say, FDR, have a major disadvantage here.

  • eric

    A lot of weird stuff is happening in this case, especially with regards to Zimmerman’s behavior…

    I’m thinking his lawyers are setting him up for a temporary insanity plea or other ‘not in his right mind’ sort of defense. Publicly talking about his erratic behavior – then turning around and saying they think he’s innocent and they’d defend him if he wants them on his team??? The only reason for pointing out his erratic behavior to potential jurists is if they plan on making it a selling point, rather than a flaw.

  • slc1

    Re Raging Bee @ #18

    As much as Frankenberger was the slime off the bottom of the cesspool, one must be fair, even to him. AFAIK, his service with the Austrian Army in WW1 was perfectly acceptable and he performed honorably.

  • slc1: what does Frankenburger have to do with any of this?

    The only reason for pointing out his erratic behavior to potential jurists is if they plan on making it a selling point, rather than a flaw.

    If they do that, they’ll totally undermine the credibility of his calculation of danger, which is the only thing that can even come close to justifying his criminal action.

  • umlud “The link to the local Fox affiliate isn’t working anymore.”

    Of course it isn’t. Because it never happened. Don’t think of it as “editing history”, think of it as “hey, it’s right here because the information superhighway has no exits“.

  • slc1: the same could be said for LOTS of low-level soldiers who serve okay and then become petty criminals, gangsters, street bums, loonies, and/or shambling delusional frauds as soon as they return to civilian life. Think Tim McVeigh, or Jimmy Darmody in “Boardwalk Empire.” (Or Al Capone, if he really did serve in that war as the TV show implies.)

  • jba55

    “Of course, bearing the swastika, people confuse us with some of the other knucklehead groups that just run around acting like fools.”

    I somehow doubt the spokesman here realized that he said that they *are* a knucklehead group that’s running around acting like fools. Just not one of those other ones. Almost as though someone who waves a swastika around wasn’t thinking things through…

    Raging Bee: “what does Frankenburger have to do with any of this?”

    For some reason slc1 calls Hitler Frankenberger, probably in reference to a claim that his father was a Jewish teenager whose family Hitlers mother supposedly worked for. Apparently there isn’t any evidence to back this up, though.

  • jba55

    re me @25: Not Hitler’s father, his grandfather. My bad. My kingdom for an edit button…

  • daved

    (Or Al Capone, if he really did serve in that war as the TV show implies.)

    No mention of it in Wikipedia. He did claim the scars on his face were war wounds, but they weren’t.

  • “AFAIK, his service with the Austrian Army in WW1 was perfectly acceptable and he performed honorably.”

    Just a nitpick, but he served in the German army, not the Austrian (then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire). He served on the Western front, was decorated for bravery, and was wounded several times. Whatever Hitler’s other faults (and there were a few!), he was not a coward on the battlefield.

  • Chris from Europe

    @SLC

    Hitler served in the Bavarian Army, not the Austrian.

  • slc1

    Re jba55 @ #26

    To be completely accurate, his paternal grandfather.

    Re Raging Bee @ #24

    In comment #18, Mr. Bee said the following: The great thing about having Hitler as your idol is that it’s so easy to emulate his cowardice

    My comment was in response to this claim and I think that Mr. area man @ #28 has responded much better then I did.

  • slc1

    Re Chris from Europs @ #29

    It is my information that Bavaria was part of Germany by 1914. To say that Frankenberger served in the Bavarian Army would be like saying someone served in the Scottish Army in WW 1 or the New York Army in the Civil War.

  • cottonnero

    #31: The Bavarian Army wasn’t integrated into the German Imperial army until 1919.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavarian_Army

  • Stunning just stunning…not the fact that they are there. I expect crazy people to do crazy things…the fact that FOX called them a civil rights group is inexcusable. I hope the rest of the media picks up on that and reports that as news!

    This story (and the state of Florida) gets more ridiculous by the day. The fact that Zimmerman has not been arrested yet is ludicrous. Today his lawyer walks off the job basically saying Zimmerman is unstable. What kind of a lawyer makes a statement like that before a trial? That won’t influence anything will it? What a shit show.

  • harold

    Hitler served in the Sixth Bavarian Reserve Division of the German Army http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Bavarian_Reserve_Division_(German_Empire)

    While I mainly sympathize with Raging Bee’s contempt for Hitler, it is important to remember that Hitler himself was not a coward.

    Sometimes people who have despicable beliefs and intentions can be courageous, strong, intelligent, resourceful, etc.

    It is important not to underestimate one’s adversaries.

  • laurentweppe

    The patrols are to protect “white citizens in the area who are concerned for their safety” in the wake of the Trayvon Martin shooting last month

    I’m sure that plenty of perfectly decent white people are “concerned for their safety” now that brown shirts are “patroling” the streets.

    By the way: does shooting a neo-nazi in the back in cold blood qualify as self-defense? I mean, if killing an harmless teenager count, killing a heavily armed neo-nazi one bad day away from starting a genocide should in all logic be allowed too, right?

    ***

    Because Nazis are all about civil rights.

    Of course: they are all about abolishing them: after all, abolishing human rights was Hitler’s first political move after the Reichstag arson, one could even say that when it comes to civil right, nazis of all stripes are the most reliably consistent political group: they’ve been against them from the very begining and have never shown any sign of changing.

    ***

    Of course, bearing the swastika, people confuse us with some of the other knucklehead groups that just run around acting like fools

    They should just proclaim themselves Jainists and get Sam Harris endorsment

  • Olav

    Slc1, just as Bavaria was part of Germany then, a kingdom within the empire, so was the Bavarian army part of the German armed forces. But it was still a separate army.

  • harold

    Today his lawyer walks off the job basically saying Zimmerman is unstable.

    I want Zimmerman arrested and tried, and based on the information I have right now, I think that his story sounds like a load of shit.

    Having said that, I think he is almost certainly very unstable.

    Legally insane? That’s for an impartial judge and/or jury with time and access to far more information than I have to decide. As far as I’m concerned, a successful insanity defense would simply mean that he should be locked up for life in a forensic psychiatric institution, instead of a regular prison.

    His original claim, which I personally find quite incredible, was self-defense. This claim rests on the idea that Trayvon Martin attacked him in a serious enough way to justify a fatal shooting in self-defense, even though Trayvon Martin had no known history of violence (I’m sure we would have heard about THAT), was not trained in any martial art or military unit (I’m sure we would have heard about THAT), and although tall, was very thin and weighed a good deal less than Zimmerman.

    For such a scenario to develop, Martin would have to be a suicidal maniac, in desperate fear for his life, or highly agitated and unaware that Zimmerman had a gun (and following and provoking someone, while concealing a gun you’d like to shoot them with, does not count as “self defense” or “standing your ground” in my book).

    With the caveat that my information is imperfect and gleaned from an obnoxious US media, I don’t see much reason for Zimmerman to think he can walk. The self-defense argument seems weak, and if it fails, that’s a guilty verdict. The insanity defense seems stronger to me, given Zimmerman’s apparent outbursts of uncontrollable rage and obvious poor judgment, but a mental health defense in a case like this, even if successful, should lead to major curtailment of liberties.

    Zimmerman probably is unstable – this incident happened, after all. But unstable and “legally insane” are not at all the same thing. He should have sought help long before he shot somebody, and can probably differentiate right from wrong.

    I do feel some sadness for Zimmerman (no flames please, I totally condemn and despise his evil action and wish it had not happened). I think that there is some possibility that there are problems in his life that should and could have been addressed better. That doesn’t mean he should get away with stalking and shooting unarmed teenagers.

  • slc1

    Re cottonnero @ #32

    Technically correct. However, note this sentence from the Wikipedia link:

    With the beginning of mobilisation on 1 August 1914, the supreme command of the Bavarian field army passed from the 4th Army Inspectorate to the German Emperor.

    Actually, Crown Prince Rupprecht who commanded the Bavarian contingent on the Western front was probably, in part, responsible for the abandonment of the Schlieffen Plan when, after his force repulsed the French attack on his front, he demanded that reinforcements which had been allocated to the German right wing be sent instead to reinforce his army to allow it to take the offensive. In the Schlieffen Plan, his contingent was supposed to remain in a defensive posture holding the French force on its front in place. This reduction in the planned size of the German right wing (as von Schlieffen said, only make the right wing strong) was further exacerbated when the Chief of the German General Staff, von Moltke, in terror because of the advance of two Russian Armies on the Eastern Front detached 5 divisions from the right wing of the German Army and entrained them toward the East. As it transpired, the Battle of Tannenberg was fought and won before the reinforcement arrived and the Battle of the Marne was fought and lost before they could be returned. The loss of those 5 divisions caused the commander of the army on the far right of the German deployment, von Kluck, to make his infamous left turn which exposed his right flank to a counterattack from the Paris garrison (the famous Paris taxis).

  • Fox TV affiliate referred to them as a “civil rights group”

    *stares in stunned silence*

    My brain just broke.

  • Fox TV affiliate referred to them as a “civil rights group”

    Because white people are so oppressed.

  • jba55

    IANAL, could someone who knows more about this type of thing tell me what the chances are (knowing what we know now) that Zimmerman might plead and “get away with” insanity? I’ve also heard that life sentences in psychiatric prisons are very rare in modern times, is that so?

    I don’t know about anyone else, but even as white as I am I would be much more concerned about a real “white rights” group walking around than a nonexistent race riot.

    @slc1 30: …ok. It still doesn’t explain why you call him by the wrong name. Regardless of what his paternal grandfather’s last name was his father changed it before Adolf was born.

  • Billy Clyde Tuggle

    I think people are reading too much into the botched FOX 35 story on the Nazi knuckle heads. These reason I say that is that the reporter of record for the story was a black women.

    BCT

  • slc1

    Rejba55 @ #41

    Actually, Alois putative father was named Heidler and later changed it to Hitler.

    As I understand it, Alois birth certificate does not identify his father as his mother, Maria Schickelgruber, was unmarried. Alois was allegedly christened Alois Schickelgruber at his baptism. The allegation is that Maria was employed as a maid in the house of a family named Frankenberger, although any record of this family was destroyed after the Anschluss in 1938, and that their 19 year old son knocked her up, the result being Alois. It is not even known whether the Frankenberger family, if it existed, was Jewish; more likely, it consisted of converts to Catholicism, or a mixed marriage.

  • I can’t imagine there will be an insanity defense offered. Zimmerman’s current instability would have no bearing on criminal responsibility and nothing that’s been said about this case remotely suggests he could satisfy the Florida’s legal standard for insanity at the time of the shooting. His thoughts were organized and coherent in his long 911 phone call and clearly, he understood what the 911 dispatcher was saying. People who know him have already said enough that it would be very difficult to argue that he was under the influence of psychotic delusions.

    His supposed instability now is perfectly understandable given his isolation, his lack of freedom of movement, the threats to himself and family, the magnitude of the publicity, and the prolonged process of helplessness as he awaits a decision on charging him with murder. I’ve seen people who otherwise function adequately come apart at the seams under pressures far less than what Zimmerman has probably been experiencing. Before his attorneys said anything about his instability, I was already wondering if his family had him on suicide watch.

  • hotshoe

    Unfortunately Zimmerman is going to be arrested (pr turn himself in) before he works up the courage to kill himself. He should do it out of remorse for his worthless stupidity and to spare his family the shame of having such a cowardly punk for a relative.

    If I were his brother, I would have tried to talk him into setting his affairs in order then reminded him where the bullets and gun had been stashed. Suicide watch, yeah, they should be watching to make sure he finished before the cops get there.

    Zimmerman’s life is over in a real sense, no matter what happens at trial. No matter if he’s acquitted of the murder, he knows that he killed a child for no good reason. He already admitted that much. How can he live with himself after that ? He can never go back to being “innocent” even if the verdict somehow turns out to be “not guilty”.

    The best thing would have been for him to arrange his own death while he still had some dignity, but it’s too late for that now.

  • laurentweppe

    If I were his brother, I would have tried to talk him into setting his affairs in order then reminded him where the bullets and gun had been stashed

    I’m not familiar with Florida’s legal minutiae, but I’m pretty sure that incitation to suicide is a crime everywhere in the western world. Son would you sincerely risk several years in prison just to “clean” your family reputation?

    Besides, the whole “a death for a death” calculus is stupid to begin with. Understandable in the immediate aftermatch of a killing if one knew well the victim, but you should refrain from pretending that such a calculus is rational or principled

  • anubisprime

    “The Sanford Police Department says it has no evidence of neo-Nazis in the area. “We have not seen any neo-Nazis on patrol nor have we had any reports of them,” Sgt. David Morgenstern says. He adds there have been no signs of the New Black Panther Party either.”

    They also added off camera that ‘Zombies, Witches, Werewolves and Vampires are also not there…although they cannot really comment about jeebus cos that matter is still before the courts but off the record up until today not a whiff of him has been reported..except by weird folks in dresses and the National Rifle Association but it is unconfirmed!’

  • Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven

    Well, just in case anyone who might be convinced by anything that this was in fact racist was still holding out…

  • …the fact that FOX called them a civil rights group is inexcusable. I hope the rest of the media picks up on that and reports that as news!

    A FOX affiliate called them a “civil rights group”, allegedly/apparently by mistake. Affiliate stations’ news departments are run locally. They’re rather far removed from FOX News Channel.

  • slc1

    According to the news this morning, Zimmerman has been arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder, which would carry a life sentence if convicted.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-shooting-law-enforcement-official-says/2012/04/11/gIQAHJ5oAT_story.html

    IMHO, it is a good possibility that there will be a plea bargain with Zimmerman pleading guilty to 1st degree manslaughter as 2nd degree murder charge seems a little severe, given what we know about the case. According to the article linked to, there is evidence of injuries to Zimmerman, i.e. a cut on the back of his head and a bloody nose which supports his claim that he was on his back on the ground and that Martin was on top of him. However, given the fact that Martin had no weapon and that Zimmerman outweighed him by at least 50 pounds, it does not seem that a self defense defense would fly.

  • arakasi

    And these bozos are the heirs to the ideology that once terrified half the world? It’s almost enough for me to wish that there was a hell, so Hitler would spend eternity watching these Keystone Korps strutt their stuff

  • On a different forum, the day before yesterday, someone said that there was no way of knowing what crimes Trayvon Martin might have committed that were in a sealed juvie record. I offered that such a thing might be true; otoh, Zimmerman had a father who was a magistrate and nobody knows what crimes he might have committed (although I hasten to add that I doubt very much that he was involved with Glennie Bek in the disappearance of a school bus full of middle school students during the 1990’s) and had the sealed in HIS juvie record.

  • harold

    someone said that there was no way of knowing what crimes Trayvon Martin might have committed that were in a sealed juvie record.

    That’s indeed true, but it’s true of everyone who lives in any jurisdiction that seals juvenile records, and it’s also true for Zimmerman, both in the sense that he could not possibly have known of crimes by Trayvon Martin, and in the sense that he could have an extensive juvenile record himself for all we know.

    However, we do have indirect evidence against Trayvon Martin having a very serious juvenile record. He was at an age-appropriate grade in school, and despite minor discipline problems, seems to have been a serious college applicant. That rules out any juvenile conviction serious enough to have put him in the juvenile system until adulthood, and makes any serious juvenile conviction less likely (since in practice such a conviction tends to disrupt on time graduation).

    As I’ve also noted, if Trayvon Martin had a serious criminal record and/or documented history of serious substance abuse, the situation would still be the same. He was unarmed, he wasn’t breaking the law at the time, Zimmerman followed and in some way confronted him, and Martin ended up shot to death.

    I used to live somewhat near the clubhouse of a well known “outlaw” motorcycle club, that is officially regarded as an organized crime entity, and whose members are stereotyped as substance abusers. Nevertheless, if I or anyone else were to follow one of them when they were unarmed, confront them, and shoot them, even in that circumstance, I think an arrest and investigation would almost certainly be in order.

    Certainly if there were a rational reason to believe that someone might pose an immediate threat to someone else in the neighborhood, and if the person being followed had a strong record of violence and/or was intoxicated on a substance associated with violence, that might make a self-defense claim more credible in court, in front of a jury and/or judge, but the shooting death of an unarmed person who was followed and confronted by the shooter still deserves more attention than was given here, and it’s awfully hard for me to envision a circumstance in which there shouldn’t be at least an initial arrest and full homicide investigation, no matter who was shot.

    As far as I can see, the “pro-Zimmerman” stuff is almost 100% racism, largely triggered by the fact that President Obama made a comment. (Prior to the comment by Obama, most of the comments I saw by gun owners were strongly against the way the case was handled, based on the very accurate perception that Zimmerman had made gun owners look bad.)

    “Trayvon Martin was a bad person”, in addition to not seeming to be very credible, is not an adequate explanation for why he was stalked and shot when he was unarmed.

  • Pteryxx

    …Holy crap, from that Salon article about unequal application of SYG laws – the black man defending himself from a white man who stalked his family, threatened him, and came at him with a knife is serving life in prison.

    After a neighbor across the street who witnessed the encounter corroborated McNeil’s account, police determined that it was a case of self-defense and did not charge him in the death. Nevertheless, almost a year later Cobb County District Attorney Patrick Head decided to prosecute McNeil for murder. In 2006, he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison.

    […]

    In 2008, McNeil appealed his case to the Georgia Supreme Court with all but one of the seven justices upholding his conviction. The sole dissent came from Chief Justice Leah Ward Sears who argued, “the State failed to disprove John McNeil’s claim of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt.” She went on to write:

    “Even viewed in the light most favorable to the verdict, the evidence was overwhelming in showing that a reasonable person in McNeil’s shoes would have believed that he was subject to an imminent physical attack by an aggressor possessing a knife and that it was necessary to use deadly force to protect himself from serious bodily injury or a forcible felony. Under the facts of this case, it would be unreasonable to require McNeil to wait until Epp succeeded in attacking him, thereby potentially disarming him, getting control of the gun, or stabbing him before he could legally employ deadly force to defend himself. This is not what Georgia law requires.”

    http://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/when_stand_your_ground_fails/singleton/

  • d cwilson

    Whether or not Martin had a juvenile record really has no bearing on this case, as there was no way Zimmerman could have known about it, so it would have had no bearing on his state of mind.

  • harold

    Pteryxx –

    I saw that depressingly unsurprising story. It took place in Georgia.

  • Am I the only one immensely uncomfortable with hotshoe’s comment @45?

  • hotshoe

    No, you’re not the only one; I’ve already been scolded by laurentweppe.

    But why would you be uncomfortable ? What is wrong with recognizing that a person who has ruined his own life (by avoidable stupidity resulting in an innocent person’s death, even if it wasn’t murder) can quite reasonably choose to remove himself from his failed life by committing suicide ? There is no moral argument which could compel me to live with myself if I were the one who had worked myself up into that situation, hot with desire to “get the bad guys”, only to kill an innocent child … to wake up the next morning in the grim realization that I was actually the bad guy. What’s so ennobling about suffering that I should have to suffer life in prison with my deep failings as my constant companion ? And if you or I wouldn’t want to suffer that, why should you or I hypocritically want Zimmerman to suffer that ? Why, because him killing himself now prevents us (or the victim’s family) from getting justice, ie revenge ? Is that it ?

  • @hotshoe — I’m uncomfortable because you’re basically pushing for this guy to off himself.

    Now, I’m all for ending one’s own life as one wishes, BUT, in keeping with that, I cannot advocate or condone actively pushing another towards suicide. Way too close to outright murder.

  • hotshoe

    Whatever.