This Cartoon Says It All

This Cartoon Says It All May 12, 2012

Here’s a political cartoon from the Houston Chronicle that speaks volumes about the voter fraud scam:


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  • D. C. Sessions

    What’s wrong is that those 600,000 should never have been allowed to register. Florida is way ahead of Texas on that one.

  • Phillip IV

    I always sucked at “spot the difference”…but could it be that the right picture doesn’t actually have the same number of people as the left one?

    As for the question “what’s wrong with this picture”, it’s quite obvious: the cartoonist portrayed far too many white people among the crowd in the left picture. It does capture the disproportion, but it doesn’t fully address the racism.

  • But ACORN!!!

  • Michael Heath

    Ditto Philip IV’s point the toon misses the effective racism practiced by the Republican party’s legislators when it comes to voting rights.

  • Michael Heath, but the Republicans aren’t trying to suppress their vote because they are black. They’re trying to suppress their vote because they’re Democrats! That they’re black is just a nice perk; like punching a hippie and finding out he’s also a uterus.

  • Doc Bill

    Sessions wrote:

    What’s wrong is that those 600,000 should never have been allowed to register. Florida is way ahead of Texas on that one.

    You should have qualified this as your personal opinion as it is devoid of fact.

    Fact: to register to vote in Texas you must satisfy these requirements as quoted from the Texas Voter Registration website –

    To be eligible to register in Texas, you must:

    be a U.S. citizen;

    be a resident of the county;

    be 18 years old (you may register at 17 years and 10 months);

    not a convicted felon (unless a person’s sentence is completed, including any probation or parole)

    not declared mentally incapacitated by a court of law

    You can register on-line or you can request a voter registration form be sent to your house.

    That’s the fact, Jack. Whether you, Sessions, believe a person should or should not be “allowed” to register to vote, in Texas it is LEGAL to register to vote by satisfying these requirements. Note, there is no legal requirement to provide a picture ID.

    Maybe you and your fellow travelers don’t like the law, Sessions, but as we say here in Texas, “Tough beans.”

    As for Florida being ahead of Texas, you’re right about that. In the same time period Florida had 49 reported cases of voter fraud. So, yep, they’re ahead.

    Florida also had 72 reported cases of shark attack, again beating Texas.

    So, Sessions, what do you think we should do about this situation here in Texas, encourage more voter fraud or import some sharks?

  • slc1

    Re Doc Bill @ #6

    All very well but does one have to show a photo ID in order to vote in Texas?

  • Michael Heath

    Doc Bill,

    D.C. Sessions positions are known well enough in this venue that it’s feasible for him to assume we’d know he was being sarcastic.

  • Artor

    Doc Bill, I think it’s time to get your sarcasm meter checked. I think it’s out of calibration, which is understandable considering the state of news these days.

  • modusoperandi @#5: I think you win the thread!

  • D. C. Sessions

    Doc Bill@6:

    Does the League of Women Voters still operate in Texas? If they do, then Texas is behind Florida — because registering voters in Florida is so hazardous to the registrar that the League, for the first time in United States history, has been run out of a State.

    Texas needs to work harder at catching up to the leaders like Florida.

  • Freeman

    Of course, everyone knows the real voter fraud occurs once politicians are elected as they sell their votes to lobbyists and trade votes among themselves.

  • left0ver1under

    The only scams that occured in recent US elections have been voter purges – almost always by ethnicity, the poor, or along party lines. It has happened in Colorado, New Mexico and elsewhere.

    In one instance I heard of, a person removed from the New Mexico list was a government employee who worked in the elections office. He was trusted enough to help run elections, but not to vote in one?

    http://www.brennancenter.org/content/resource/voter_purges

    http://projectvote.org/newsreleases/435-lawsuit-filed-to-demand-that-new-mexico-jump-start-voter-registration-efforts-.html

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-gop-war-on-voting-20110830

    http://www.alternet.org/story/92695/three_states_accused_of_illegally_purging_voter_lists/99_percent_300x250_flash.swf/?page=entire

  • left0ver1under

    Follow up to my first: Paul Maez, that was his name. He is/was an elections supervisor in New Mexico. And he was denied the right to vote.

    http://www.gregpalast.com/rolling-stone-its-already-stolen/

  • Doc Bill

    Yeah, but I thought my shark comment was right on, without jumping it!

    At least I got chicken.

  • lancifer

    Here in Indiana we just went through a big kerfuffle over the state’s new voter ID law.

    I have a hard time getting worked up over either side’s bloviating.

    The Republicans claim it is necessary to prevent a non-existent voter fraud problem.

    Yawn, there have only been a handful of voter fraud cases and embarrassingly a Republican candidate was caught falsifying his residence to gain eligibility for office.

    Then again the Democrats have screamed “DISENFRANCHISEMENT!”.

    PUH LEEZE! If you can’t be bothered to get a free state ID or driver’s licence you sure didn’t feel an urgent need to exercise your voting rights.

    The truth is that Republicans and Democrats both know that the dregs that can’t scrounge up a state ID are usually pestered and rounded up by Democratic organizers and shipped en mass to polling stations.

    Oh, what a travesty that these people that can’t be bothered to get an ID or get themselves to a voting booth have been “disenfranchised”.

    Meh! A pox on both of their houses.

  • Randomfactor

    Well, this IS how things are supposed to work: better that 150,000 innocent people should suffer than that one guilty person go free.

    Or wait–do I have that backwards?

  • Randomfactor

    Given the recent history of such things, I suspect that all the people on the right are registered Republicans.

  • D. C. Sessions

    PUH LEEZE! If you can’t be bothered to get a free state ID or driver’s licence you sure didn’t feel an urgent need to exercise your voting rights.

    When Florida makes it criminally prosecutable to register voters on a Saturday (or Sunday on a long weekend) it’s just possible that there’s more involved than just laziness.

    When the required ID involves documents that an interesting subset of people don’t have and have to spend both money and bankers’ hours to get, there’s more involved than just laziness.

    When the very-popular early voting hours and by-mail voting are severely cut back, it’s just possible that there’s more involved than just laziness.

    When the required voter ID must be obtained during bankers’ hours from a limited number of places, often hours of travel from disfavored districts, it’s just possible that there’s more involved than just laziness.

    And, by the way, not all eligible voters either own cars or drive.

  • PUH LEEZE! If you can’t be bothered to get a free state ID or driver’s licence you sure didn’t feel an urgent need to exercise your voting rights.

    This is the type of thing that makes it easy for the Republicans to push these laws through. In theory, photo id of some kind doesn’t seem to be a particularly onerous requirement on someone if they want to go to the trouble to vote. After all, don’t most people have driver’s licenses already.

    But the devil is in the details. For example, here in Texas, the photo id law that passed allowed concealed carry ids to be used as a voter id, but not student ids (who typically vote more Democratic). In Wisconsin, their law allowed for non-drivers to get free photo ids from DMV offices, but then planned to closed locations, most of them in heavily Democratic areas, making it much harder to many people there to obtain those ids.

    Also, no matter the argument, the reality is that Republicans know that photo id requirements impose an unequal burden on the poor when it comes to voting, which is the main reason they are fans. How do we know this? Well, apart from their lies about widespread voter fraud, we could solve this issue once and for all by proposing a national ID card that would be issued to all citizens and could be used to get you into the voting booth. Then hear conservatives scream bloody murder over the prospect of government issued id cards…

  • lancifer, if this was an episode of the Twilight Zone, you’d go to bed tonight and wake up tomorrow poor, black and born during Jim Crow.

  • Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven

    You should have qualified this as your personal opinion as it is devoid of fact.

    Or, alternatively, “sarcasm obvious to anyone with an IQ above room temperature in celsius and even the most marginal familiarity with the posters here.”

  • Azkyroth, Former Growing Toaster Oven

    lancifer, if this was an episode of the Twilight Zone, you’d go to bed tonight and wake up tomorrow poor, black and born during Jim Crow.

    And then they’d break from reality by portraying a smugly ignorant piece of shit like lancifer as actually learning something.

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  • lancifer

    Modusoperandi,

    lancifer, if this was an episode of the Twilight Zone, you’d go to bed tonight and wake up tomorrow poor, black and born during Jim Crow.

    Yeah, because having to get a free ID is just like being black in Mississippi in 1933 and facing off against the Klan.

    Sing it with me Modus,”We shall over come.”

    My wife is from Ethopia, where they haven’t had a true free election since…well they’ve never had one. There are still people in prison from daring to point out that Meles Zenawi rigged the results of the last thing resembling a real election back in 2005.

    People were shot DEAD in the streets of Addis Ababa for daring to speak out after Meles falsified the election results.

    But hey, you’re right the real heroes are the people that can’t be bothered to take a utility bill and their birth certificates down to the DMV.

    I’m so ashamed of myself. When will America end the suffering of these patriots who have been denied their sacred voting rights due to the ravages of inconvenience and torpor.

  • lancifer

    tacitus,

    Also, no matter the argument, the reality is that Republicans know that photo id requirements impose an unequal burden on the poor when it comes to voting, which is the main reason they are fans.

    Yeah, I believe I said as much in my original comment.

    So, what?

    It’s still falling off a log easy to get a free state ID.

    It is a politically motivated tempest in a teapot.

    It speaks poorly of the honesty of Republicans for trumping up the evidence for a non-existent voter fraud problem and the Democrats are just as slimy for claiming it “disenfranchises” a large segment of society.

    Also the inference that these folks are largely black, as amplified by Modus’ ridiculous Jim Crow reference, is racist in it’s own right. Cause we all know, wink wink, poor and lazy people must be non-white, right?

    If Democrats had perceived an ID as an impediment to a segment populated by probable Republican voters you can bet the roles in this little political farce would be reversed.

  • lancifer

    Azkyroth,

    And then they’d break from reality by portraying a smugly ignorant piece of shit like lancifer as actually learning something.

    I’m blinded by the beauty of your prose and dumbstruck by the moral clarity of your social commentary.

    Excuse me while I silently weep.

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  • lancifer “My wife is from Ethopia, where they haven’t had a true free election since…well they’ve never had one. There are still people in prison from daring to point out that Meles Zenawi rigged the results of the last thing resembling a real election back in 2005.”

    Meet Viviette Applewhite. She fought, and won, and now she gets to fight it all over again, coming from a new angle.

    “But hey, you’re right the real heroes are the people that can’t be bothered to take a utility bill and their birth certificates down to the DMV.”

    Try doing it with the birth certificate that doesn’t exist. Try doing that at the nearest DMV, which was shuttered. Don’t fret, they extended the hours at ones in Republican districts. Or, if you can’t get in the car you don’t have to drive with the license you don’t have a half hour to the DMV that’s open, you can go to one of the many other DMV branches vaguely near you (that are open one day a month or less). Try doing that in states that will do it for free, but were told not to volunteer information about them unless specifically asked to do so (“never happen”, you say? Try “has already happened in Wisconsin, until a ruckus was raised“).

    And, yes, some states have set it up so that you can use a different photo ID. Like a concealed carry permit. Or university ID that has an expiry date (“…and they were printed before the law oh I’m sorry those ones aren’t valid. And, no, we haven’t decided yet if an expiry sticker is good enough. That decision isn’t due until after the election.”)

    “…and the Democrats are just as slimy for claiming it ‘disenfranchises’ a large segment of society.”

    How many American citizens is it okay to disenfranchise to solve a problem that that’s essentially statistical noise?

    Out-of-date or inaccurate voter roles, poorly trained or partisan poll workers or broken or run down voting machines (in poor districts, natch), high-tech ones with opaque security measures, and the State bumping people off the roles (as in Florida where “felons” were removed under, politely, questionable circumstances. “Your name is ‘Clarence Thomas’? Sorry, you can’t vote. ‘Thomas Clarence’ is a felon and was purged from the rolls, as were Lawrence Thomas, Tom Clarence and Clarisse Thomas.”) are a far more real problem.

    “Also the inference that these folks are largely black, as amplified by Modus’ ridiculous Jim Crow reference, is racist in it’s own right. Cause we all know, wink wink, poor and lazy people must be non-white, right?

    African-Americans are about 50% more likely to be among the eleven million Americans that don’t have a passport or birth certificate available.

    “If Democrats had perceived an ID as an impediment to a segment populated by probable Republican voters you can bet the roles in this little political farce would be reversed.”

    And, and I can’t believe I’m asking this, even assuming you’re correct (redistricting shenanigans are the closest thing that comes to mind) what the hell does that have to do with anything? You’ll find few, if any, partisan Democrats here. It’s wrong no matter who does it. It’s even wrong when I do it, and I’m *awesome*.

    Any other things I can cite to illuminate you and, God willing, wipe that insufferable smirk off your face?

  • dingojack

    Colour me dumb, but how does free ID from the DMV prevent voter fraud?

    I could walk into a Indiana DMV office and claim I’m Barak Obama, and bingo, so I am!

    Dingo

    —–

    Here, you only need to know your own name and where you live. (But then again, going to the polling place is compulsory so multiple voting or voting as someone else is harder to do).

  • livingplof, thanks for that link to a page on the Achilles heel in Spanish. It would be quite an interesting read if it was in any way related to the subject of this page.

    Dingojack, to be fair, it’s not fair to compare American and Australian elections. For one thing, in Australia the choice on the ballot is simple, “Bruce” or “Sheila” and the address all Australians provide is always “4 Ringamawinga, Jamapuddle, Pringeloo”, no matter where they live in the country. For another, shut up, that’s why.

  • Ed! I has a comment in moderation!

  • lancifer “My wife is from Ethopia, where they haven’t had a true free election since…well they’ve never had one. There are still people in prison from daring to point out that Meles Zenawi rigged the results of the last thing resembling a real election back in 2005.”

    Meet Viviette Applewhite. She fought, and won, and now she gets to fight it all over again, coming from a new angle.

    “But hey, you’re right the real heroes are the people that can’t be bothered to take a utility bill and their birth certificates down to the DMV.”

    Try doing it with the birth certificate that doesn’t exist. Try doing that at the nearest DMV, which was shuttered. Don’t fret, they extended the hours at ones in Republican districts.

  • Or, if you can’t get in the car you don’t have to drive with the license you don’t have a half hour to the DMV that’s open, you can go to one of the many other DMV branches vaguely near you (that are open one day a month or less). Try doing that in states that will do it for free, but were told not to volunteer information about them unless specifically asked to do so (“never happen”, you say? Try “has already happened in Wisconsin, until a ruckus was raised“).

    And, yes, some states have set it up so that you can use a different photo ID. Like a concealed carry permit. Or university ID that has an expiry date (“…and they were printed before the law oh I’m sorry those ones aren’t valid. And, no, we haven’t decided yet if an expiry sticker is good enough. That decision isn’t due until after the election.”)

  • “…and the Democrats are just as slimy for claiming it ‘disenfranchises’ a large segment of society.”

    How many American citizens is it okay to disenfranchise to solve a problem that that’s essentially statistical noise?

    Out-of-date or inaccurate voter roles, poorly trained or partisan poll workers or broken or run down voting machines (in poor districts, natch), high-tech ones with opaque security measures, and the State bumping people off the roles (as in Florida where “felons” were removed under, politely, questionable circumstances. “Your name is ‘Clarence Thomas’? Sorry, you can’t vote. ‘Thomas Clarence’ is a felon and was purged from the rolls, as were Lawrence Thomas, Tom Clarence and Clarisse Thomas.”) are a far more real problem.

    “Also the inference that these folks are largely black, as amplified by Modus’ ridiculous Jim Crow reference, is racist in it’s own right. Cause we all know, wink wink, poor and lazy people must be non-white, right?

    African-Americans are about 50% more likely to be among the eleven million Americans that don’t have a passport or birth certificate available.

    “If Democrats had perceived an ID as an impediment to a segment populated by probable Republican voters you can bet the roles in this little political farce would be reversed.”

    And, and I can’t believe I’m asking this, even assuming you’re correct (redistricting shenanigans are the closest thing that comes to mind) what the hell does that have to do with anything? You’ll find few, if any, partisan Democrats here. It’s wrong no matter who does it. It’s even wrong when I do it, and I’m *awesome*.

    Any other things I can cite to illuminate you and, God willing, wipe that insufferable smirk off your face?

  • “The truth is that Republicans and Democrats both know that the dregs that can’t scrounge up a state ID are usually pestered and rounded up by Democratic organizers and shipped en mass to polling stations.”

    Really, if everybody knows it should be quite easy to provide some verifiable “proof” of such. Oh, you don’t have a lot of that proof? Well, then it’s just another bullshit assertion.

    Your wife is from Ethiopia? I’m sure she’s a lovely person–although I’m not so sure she’s with one. You’re being married to her might qualify you to speak about her experience, it’s not yours. Voter suppression, of minorities and immigrants has a long and sad history in the U.S. In Ethiopia such suppression is likely to be more ethnic, clannish and political in nature. In the U.S. it’s very much about racism–and that racism is definitely the province of the GOP, particularly it’s former “dixiecrat” and its new teabaggist members.

  • @Modusoperandi #30:

    For one thing, in Australia the choice on the ballot is simple, “Bruce” or “Sheila” and the address all Australians provide is always “4 Ringamawinga, Jamapuddle, Pringeloo”, no matter where they live in the country.

    As an Australian, I am deeply offended by your lack of knowledge of our political system. For one thing, we don’t all live in Pringleloo. Some of us live in the districts of Bugarup, Didjabringabeeralong and Worralorrasurfa. In addition, the two names on the ballot this year are Joolz (representing the Sheep Shearing, Credit Card Fraud and Male Secretary-molesting Party) and the Abbsta (representing the Beer-swilling, Migrant-hating and Minority-bashing Party). Kindly educate yourself.

  • dingojack

    Oh and don’t forget Australian No Poofters Party run by the Reverend Denial (from Woolomooloo)!

    Dingo

  • Lancifer, you keep referring to this “free state ID”.

    It took me 3 minutes to find this table: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/dlfees.htm

    Are you being intentionally dishonest, or jast parroting Fox News talking points?

  • Winterwind “Kindly educate yourself.”

    Only if you stop coming here and stealing our jobs!*

    * And not even then.

  • lancifer

    Deanna Joy Lyons,

    Here is cut and past from the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles website.(Emphasis mine.)

    The BMV offers identification cards for Indiana residents who do not drive. To obtain an identification card, you must visit a license branch and present the required documents of identification. To obtain a free identification card for voting purposes, you must visit a license branch with the requirement documentation and state that you need a free identification card for voting purposes.

    A sincere apology would be nice, but I suspect you haven’t the class to make one.

  • lancifer

    Modus,

    Any other things I can cite to illuminate you and, God willing, wipe that insufferable smirk off your face?

    Well, Mr. Funnypants, for a guy that has pretty much smirked his way through every comment he has ever made at this site, pots and kettles come to mind. Christ, even your avatar is smirking.

    (Actually I find your comments to be some of the most interesting here at Dispatches, but come on, he who dishes it out should be able to consume it, eh?)

    So, I must have really hit a nerve. But let’s talk reality.

    Your link to a screed on Think Progress is a hoot. They are so worried about poor Miss Applewhite that they are willing to exploit her for political gain, but not concerned enough to help her get a state ID which in all states has provisions to get around the problem of not having a birth certificate. Also, boo hoo for the articles claiming that people had to make a trip on a certain day to get ID, or had to come back later.

    Be sure to send the people rotting in a fetid prison in Addis Ababa these articles so than can realize that these people in America are the ones that have the real obstacles to voting.

    C’mon Modus, put your partisanship aside for the moment and tell me you really think these inconveniences, exaggerated for political purposes in the articles you quote, constitute a grave impediment to voting.

    I have already said that I think these laws are unnecessary and that Republicans pushed them to make it harder for Democrats to get poor and illiterate folks to the polls, but you should also be willing to admit that the main reason Democrats care is because it may cost them some votes.

    The fact that Think Progress can make political hay from these laws is just a bonus for Democrats.

    Try to be a bit less credulous.

  • lancifer

    demmocommie,

    I have spent extended periods in Ethiopia over the last ten years. I speak Amharic, although poorly, and my in-laws and my many Ethiopian friends and colleagues are a very big part of my life. So when you claim I haven’t the right to identify with their problems, you sir, can go fuck yourself.

    You live here in the US enjoying all of the privileges and benefits of a free and pluralistic society. And here you are self-righteously claiming some sort of moral high ground over a political squabble about getting an ID to prove who you are to vote.

    I have no doubt that had the Dems instituted these laws to filter out a few backwoods redneck Republicans you would be up on your soap box proclaiming the virtue of these laws and condemning the Republicans for opposing them.

  • lancifer

    Demmocommie,

    In Ethiopia such suppression is likely to be more ethnic, clannish and political in nature.

    And that makes it OK I guess, because hating someone for being in a different tribe is so much better than hating them for being of a different race.

    Also learn something about Ethiopia before making asinine remarks. There are no clan problems in Ethiopia, that’s Somalia. And sadly there is plenty of racism in Ethiopia. In fact slavery existed there more recently than it existed here in the US. Slavery was officially abolished in Ethiopia only in 1942.

    In Ethiopia people of one tribe often consider certain other tribes as being racial inferior. To you they probably all look “black” but once you interact with people of different regional tribes you can differentiate them by accent, skin color, hair texture and facial features.

    Unfortunately like humans everywhere on the planet people in Ethiopia tend to align with people who look, speak and behave like themselves.

    Oh, and they had a little experiment with communism back in the seventies. It didn’t go so well.

  • lancifer

    Deanna Joy Lyons,

    Oh and since you spent three minutes finding the Texas Driver’s License fees it took me two minutes to find,

    Texas Senate Bill No. 14 requires voters to provide photo identification (ID) before voting. It makes free election ID certificates available to voters who request them for the purpose of voting.

    Still waiting for that apology.

  • wareyin

    lancifer,

    Have you looked at the requirements listed for getting that “free” voter ID? Once you have, I’m sure you’ll be happy to apologize yourself, right?

  • lancifer

    wareyin,

    Please, do tell of the insurmountable ones on the list. Then I will graciously and sincerely apologize.

  • wareyin

    Very well. If you do not have a birth certificate, as many poor people don’t, you are done in both IN and TX. So, your apology…?

  • lancifer

    Oh, and among the many things you can’t get without a photo ID is food stamps.

    Funny how the Dems care about ID when it might cost them votes but not when it might take food out of the mouths of the poor.

  • lancifer

    wareyin,

    That’s it? I asked you to inform me of the insurmountable obstacles on a list and you tell me that some people don’t have birth certificates?

    Why don’t you Google “no birth certificate state ID” and see what comes up. You’ll find that provisions exist for these folks to get ID’s.

    Really, I have already admitted it might be inconvenient for some people but that hardly means they are being “disenfranchised” by these laws.

    Voting is not only a right it is a duty, and if a few minor inconveniences are too much for you to bear then maybe you shouldn’t be voting anyway.

    Christ this same argument happened for voter registration and I had the same reaction then. You used to have to go a state office or request a voter’s registration application by mail. The same sides lined up on the issue.

    Now, here in Indiana you can register to vote at the BMV, in addition to the old ways, and still some people claim this is too hard.

    Seriously? I have a hard time getting too worked up over this “injustice”.

  • lancifer “Christ, even your avatar is smirking.”

    To be fair, that was it’s first picture taken without it having to hold that black board with the white letters up to it’s chest.

    “So, I must have really hit a nerve.”

    It’s a sore spot. Not being one of the eleven million (not even being an American), it’s not a personal sore spot, but it still bothers me. It’s been over for a century and a half, and the US is still fighting the Civil War.

    “Your link to a screed on Think Progress is a hoot. They are so worried about poor Miss Applewhite that they are willing to exploit her for political gain, but not concerned enough to help her get a state ID…”

    Obviously. Because putting a face on voter suppression is exploitation. It’s votexploitation!

    They’re history’s worst monster!

    “…which in all states has provisions to get around the problem of not having a birth certificate.”

    Does that make it okay?

    “Also, boo hoo for the articles claiming that people had to make a trip on a certain day to get ID, or had to come back later.”

    You have noticed the calculated pattern to deliberately suppress, not people who are voting but aren’t allowed to, but people who should be allowed to but are politically inconvenient, right?

    “Be sure to send the people rotting in a fetid prison in Addis Ababa these articles so than can realize that these people in America are the ones that have the real obstacles to voting.”

    “Other countries have it worse” is not an argument.

    “C’mon Modus, put your partisanship aside for the moment and tell me you really think these inconveniences, exaggerated for political purposes in the articles you quote, constitute a grave impediment to voting.”

    I think a free national ID, with competent and committed assistance from the state for those who lack documents, would solve the problem.

    But too many states don’t want to solve the problem. One, because it’s not a problem. Two, because, again, this isn’t about maintaining the integrity of the vote.

    And how “inconvenient” does it need to be before you’ll push back? As I’ve hopefully shown, they’ll quite happily push and push until they reach that point. Where’s that point with you?

    “I have already said that I think these laws are unnecessary and that Republicans pushed them to make it harder for Democrats to get poor and illiterate folks to the polls, but you should also be willing to admit that the main reason Democrats care is because it may cost them some votes.”

    I don’t care what the party that supposedly more aligns with my ideals supposedly really thinks. This isn’t about party loyalty; it’s about democracy.

    “The fact that Think Progress can make political hay from these laws is just a bonus for Democrats.”

    Obviously. They to be represented as the whiny party that’s trying to let the lazy, the illegal and criminals vote. That’s political gold!

    “Try to be a bit less credulous.”

    I’m uncredulous. It’s pretty sweet. It came with a medal and everything!

    “I have no doubt that had the Dems instituted these laws to filter out a few backwoods redneck Republicans you [Democommie] would be up on your soap box proclaiming the virtue of these laws and condemning the Republicans for opposing them.”

    {citation needed}

    “Voting is not only a right it is a duty, and if a few minor inconveniences are too much for you to bear then maybe you shouldn’t be voting anyway.”

    Exactly. If they aren’t willing to jump through hurdles to defeat a problem that’s statistical noise (and one dwarfed by real problems), then they really don’t want it bad enough. I mean, this is America! Voting’s a privilege, not a right!

  • wareyin

    lancifer,

    As expected, your response is that if it is easy for you, it is easy for all. If one was never issued a birth certificate, how do they get one to get an id? I googled it for Indiana, and I did not find an answer. I did find this, from http://www.demos.org/publication/voter-identification-fact-sheet

    No ID is really “free.”

    • Even if the state offers one, the voter must still present other documents in order to get the “free” ID. The only truly acceptable documents are an original, stamped birth certificate or a passport. Many people will not have their original birth certificate at home. And only about a quarter of Americans have passports. Voters without their birth certificates handy will have to go out and buy one – in Indiana that costs between $12 and $20 and much more if the voter was not born in Indiana. In Texas, it costs $22. (In many states, a would-be voter must pay up to $45 for a birth certificate, $97 for a passport, and over $200 for naturalization papers.)

    • The process for getting a birth certificate itself requires voters to present identification. Many identifying documents cannot be issued immediately, so potential voters must allow for processing and shipping, which may take several weeks or even months. And additional difficulties develop if the surname on one’s birth certificate is different from that on other documentation, as commonly occurs with marriage. Women are disproportionately affected.

  • Chiroptera

    You would think that in order to show that they really aren’t trying to suppress the vote, and to show that it really is easy to meet their proposed ID requirements, the conservatives would be volunteering in droves to go to lower income neighborhoods to help in voter registration drives and to help out on election day to get the people to the polls.

  • Since you don’t have the class to keep from dishonestly using the state of Indiana’s requirements instead of Texas’ I will not apologize. You were trying to smokescreen me. Liar.

    I’m glad you found buried in the lawbooks an obscure provision that says people are able to obtain a free ID card if they need one to vote. Now can you tell me, HOW they are supposed to get one? And how is it that the disenfranchised voters of all kinds are going to be able to do find out that information? What are the requirements of that, and where do they get one? It’s not been put in to practice, has it?

    As many other people here have reiterated, there is a lot that goes into that, and most of it involves long trips during business hours, and lots of intimate knowledge of how to work the system, all things that many people do not have in large amounts.

    When I was young and poor, I struggled hard to open a bank account with two forms of ID. I know what it’s like to stare at that list of acceptable forms and “Shit, now what?”

  • Forgot to add that my comment is directed toward lancifer. Y’all probably got that figured out, though. 🙂

  • lancifer

    Modus,

    I once attended a city committee public hearing about enacting an Historical District in our area. After I spoke I listened to other speakers.

    One of them stopped in mid remark, pointed at me, and proclaimed “I can’t talk while he is making that face!”

    I responded, “Sorry, this is the only face I brought.” So smirking is something I come by naturally.

    And how “inconvenient” does it need to be before you’ll push back? As I’ve hopefully shown, they’ll quite happily push and push until they reach that point. Where’s that point with you?

    When they make it harder than renting a DVD at Block Buster I’ll take action.

    Look, I said it was a stupid pointless law, but I’m not buying that it is some onerous impediment that evil racist Republicans have crafted to permanently disenfranchise minorities and the poor.

    Was it a political ploy by the Republicans? Yes sirree.

    Are the Democrats exaggerating its effects and playing it up for political gain? You bet.

    I’m just not willing to pretend it’s the end of democracy as we know it. If you can get an ID to get food stamps you can get one to vote.

    Will it inconvenience some people? I’m sure it will, but it’s a one time inconvenience and not a very big one.(Take note wareyin)

    And don’t put words in my mouth (too many cause tartar build up). I didn’t say voting was a “privilege” but it shouldn’t be too much to ask for a voter to show an ID to prevent possible voting fraud, even if it is a largely an imagined problem.

    As to claiming a certain poster is predisposed to favor a certain party, one might be forgiven for assuming that having “demmo” in their name was an indicator.

    Not to mention that I have been commenting on this site for over four years (previously as Lance) and have observed said behavior on numerous occasions.

  • Doc Bill

    In answer to a question posed earlier, in Texas I have never been asked for an ID, picture or otherwise, to vote. I did carry my voter ID card which is just a paper and show that. All I had to do was sign the register with my full legal name.

    I agree with the argument that requiring people to obtain a picture ID to vote is equivalent to a poll tax which is illegal. Picture ID’s are not free and it takes more than a few minutes, I’d say at least two hours standing in line at the DMV plus travel time.

    Furthermore, we’re talking about requiring people to obtain a picture ID for the sole purpose of voting. There is no other reason for people who don’t drive or have a passport to possess one as, clearly, they are living their lives quite happily otherwise.

  • lancifer

    Deanna Joy Lyons,

    Since you don’t have the class to keep from dishonestly using the state of Indiana’s requirements instead of Texas’ I will not apologize. You were trying to smokescreen me. Liar.

    You originally linked to the Texas DMV and when I pointed out that the law said that the Texas DMV would make free ID’s available as part of the voter ID law you called me a liar.

    It’s clear, by following the last ten posts in this thread, whom is stretching the truth.

    I only mentioned Indiana because that’s where I live and vote, and Indiana also has a voter ID law.

    Pretending that getting a free ID is some great hardship only makes you look stupid. Sixteen year-olds do it every day, not to mention that you need a photo ID for almost every other financial, federal or state transaction.

    Save your nonsense stories of the unfair impenetrable labyrinth of rules and regulations to obtain a state ID for your fellow idiots that are incapable of the simplest activity.

    Did you ever get a bank account you poor dear? I had one when I was twelve and had a paper route.

  • wareyin

    lancifer,

    I’m still waiting for your instructions on getting a photo id without a birth certificate, especially pertaining to those who were never issued one. I keep reading you say how easy it is, but even using the magic google, the only method I have found is to have a certified letter from your birth area saying that there is no record of your birth. Yep, easy as pie to get that one, huh?

  • lancifer

    wareyin,

    First of all the percentage of people living in the US that were never issued a birth certificate is some where around 0.0001% so it’s not exactly a wide spread problem.

    Second, as you mentioned, there are ways to obtain documentation verifying that no birth certificate was issued and then the state will accept other more pedestrian documentation such as utility bills etc.

    Are you really losing sleep over the few people that have this obscure problem?

    It is probably of the same order of magnitude as the number of verified cases of voter fraud. So a law that eliminates one tiny subset of problems causes another tiny subset of problems.

    Thank God your on the job, righting this wrong.

  • “In Ethiopia people of one tribe often consider certain other tribes as being racial inferior.”

    And that’s NOT clannish? Do you even realize what a fucking moron you are?

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    The word clan is used in East Africa to connote people of the same tribe but different familial hierarchies. This is a problem in Somalia because the vast majority of the people in that country belong to one “tribe” (Somali), having the same ethnicity, language and customs. They have formed “clans” that compete for land and power based on these familial ties thus the word clan is used to differentiate among these groups.

    In Ethiopia there is very little inter-tribal tension and thus “clan” is not a word associated there.

    Now, do you understand that you have misused this term in this context or should I continue?

    Do you even realize what a fucking moron you are?

    Is that a rhetorical question, because a moron would be incapable of assessing the level of their intellectual inferiority.

    You on the other hand seem bright enough, but have chosen to allow your comments to exceed your level of knowledge.

    Some calibration may be in order.

  • jws1

    I think this conversation makes it painfully obvious that some folks just don’t understand why others aren’t exactly like them. All reasonable observers of politics concede a large amount of corruption and cynicism exists in politics, yet on this issue, there is apparently nothing foul afoot. Puh-lease indeed.

  • dingojack

    lancifer – “… the percentage of people living in the US that who were never issued [with] a birth certificate is some where around 0.0001%… ”

    [corrections mine]

    Citation please!

    Dingo

    —–

    PS: 0.0001% of 313,847,465 (CIA World Factbook July 2012 est.) is only 313.847647 people. Care to revise your estimate?

    The other figure given (also without citation) was 11,000,000 or just over 3.5% of the US population.

  • wareyin

    lancifer,

    As I said, there is a near impossible solution to getting around never having been issued a birth certificate. Some people have had to struggle for 3-10 years to even get documentation that there is no documentation. Voting is a right here, not a privilege. What you are now saying is that since only a few people are being denied the right to vote in the United States, it’s ok?

    When Federal law abolishes poll taxes, and Republicans pass laws that say you have to spend money on a “free” id, that is a poll tax. Do you fall for those freecreditreport dot com ads as well? They say free in the name, so even though it costs money, it’s still free?

  • After saying this:

    “In Ethiopia people of one tribe often consider certain other tribes as being racial inferior.”

    and being laughed at for your stuplicity*

    You counter with this:

    “In Ethiopia there is very little inter-tribal tension and thus “clan” is not a word associated there.

    Now, do you understand that you have misused this term in this context or should I continue?”

    So being considered inferior is NOT a cause for resentments and tensions between various groups (“tribes”, to use YOUR words)? And you brought the whole “tribal” thing up, not me.

    “Is that a rhetorical question, because a moron would be incapable of assessing the level of their intellectual inferiority.”

    Apparently it is; as evidenced by your getting a larger shovel to dig yourself out of the the hole.

    Your penchant for taking the reactionary view–and defending it in the face of logic–is not unrecognized by a number of people on this blog. A little calibration indeed.

    * Stuplicity(C)democommieneologisms 2012 = Stupid duplicity

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    You continue to miss the point about the word “clan” in reference to East Africa.

    I’ll make this as simple as I can.

    The word “clan” is used in reference to Somalia and not Ethiopia, because in Somalia almost everyone is of one tribe (Somali). Conflicts there are between different clans of the same tribe hence the usage of the word clan.

    In Ethiopia conflicts rarely occur between members of the same tribe hence the word clan does not apply.

    Get it now or are you going to continue to call me names and post irrational rants demonstrating your ignorance and inability to follow a simple explanation?

    I have said these laws are politically motivated and cause unnecessary inconvenience, but since I don’t decry them as some great injustice perpetrated by evil Republicans you accuse me of “taking the reactionary view–and defending it in the face of logic”.

    You consistently post hyper-irrational screeds against anything that isn’t progressive dogma and you have the nerve to call me reactionary?

    Thanks for starting my day off with a laugh.

  • jws1

    Shorter Lancifer:

    “La La La, can’t hear you, la la la, can’t hear you!”

    or, alternatively: “Those lazy n@#$%&*!!!”

  • lancifer

    jws1,

    By “n@#$%&*!!!” I assume you mean “nigger”.

    Project much?

  • jws1

    Lie much?

  • Lancifer:

    What was that cogent remark towards me earlier? Oh, yes:

    “you sir, can go fuck yourself.”

    I understand the “difference” between tribes and clans, fuckwad.

    This:

    Main Entry: clannish

    Synonyms: arrogant, cliquey, cliquish, contemptuous, contumelious, disdainful, elect, ethnic, ethnocentric, exclusive, family, genetic, gentile, gentilic, haughty, lineal, national, phyletic, phylogenetic, racial, scornful, select, selective, sneering, sniffy, snobbish, snobby, snooty, snotty, supercilious, toploftical, toplofty, totemic, tribal, withering

    is from here (http://freethesaurus.net/s.php?q=clannish).

    But I’m sure that the source is too “progressive” for your taste. Fuck you, moron.

  • lancifer

    Ah, the faint ramblings of the departing rear guard.

  • Rob Monkey

    Huh, all I hear is the faint ramblings of someone who can’t find a single supporter in the thread. Sorry, but anybody who makes a comment implying that they won an argument because nobody wants to beat their dead horse any longer is more than a bit ridiculous.

    Maybe it would help to put it in a different context. Imagine if you needed no ID to vote, but if you didn’t have one, there would be a $3 processing fee for your ballot. Now $3 is next to nothing, can’t everyone scrape together $3 to vote? It’s their American duty after all, we just need them to pay a moderate fee for their democracy! No running to a DMV, no arranging to get birth certificates or anything, you just have to prove that you want to vote badly enough that you’ll pay a small fee for it. We long ago decided (correctly IMO) that ANY poll tax, regardless of amount, is too much, that the right to vote is just that, a right, and it shouldn’t be in any way compromised by someone’s lack of money. In this particular instance, someone’s right to vote should not be compromised by their lack of a car/need for a license, their choice to buy an education instead of a gun, etc., etc.

    Oh, and as far as saying that we would support the same actions if they were put upon those on the other side of the aisle, go ahead and find me an example of Democrats trying to prevent religious people, gun nuts, or any other Republican-identified group from voting. Shit, I’d be quite surprised if you found a Democrat who even said that a gun license wasn’t an appropriate form of ID to vote.

  • “Ah, the faint ramblings of the departing rear guard.”

    Faint? Okeydokey.

    Fuck you, you racist, teagagging piece of shit.

  • lancifer

    Rob Monkey,

    Nice straw man switch from free ID to poll tax. Everything you just said could be said about getting a voter registration card and sending it back.

    Is having to register to vote also “disenfranchising” people? Because, according to your logic you have to spend some money to get one and to send one back. It would no doubt cost a couple of bucks in gas to get one (or access to a telephone or internet) and then there’s the postage to send it back.

    Maybe you can start a movement to outlaw voter registration.

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    “Fuck you, you racist, teagagging piece of shit.”

    God, you are dense. Let’s recap.

    I’m not a Republican, let alone a member of the Tea Party.

    I agreed that these voter ID laws are unnecessary and politically motivated.

    I agreed that it needlessly inconveniences people.

    I do not support these laws.

    I would support repealing them (of course nobody asked).

    I am married to an African woman and spend lot’s of time in Africa, living with Africans.

    Yeah, I can see where you are totally justified calling me all of those names.

    You might want to come up out of the basement for some air, it’s actually very nice here in the real world.

  • wareyin

    lancifer,

    Of course nobody asked if you would support repealing laws that you have been defending. You have been defending the laws!

    Rob Monkey’s $3 example is just that, an example. In the real world, we are talking $12-$200 just to obtain the documents necessary for that “free” ID. That’s not counting time off work, gas, or stamps. That is the fees charged only for those documents, if they are even available.

    I get that you are comfortably well off enough that that kind of money is no burden to you. What you are failing to get is that for a significant portion of Americans who have to choose between paying for medication or the gas bill, that is an insurmountable burden. What you are callously ignoring is that it is illegal to charge a poll tax. Charging for the documents you require to get that “free” id you require to vote is a poll tax. What do you not get about that? And when those documents are not available, another American has had their rights denied. But for the Republicans, and apparently you, denying people’s rights is ok.

  • “I’m not a Republican, let alone a member of the Tea Party.”

    Do you think I or anyone else reading your screeds (in this thread and others) is going to buy that? You are a fucking moron.

    “I am married to an African woman and spend lot’s of time in Africa, living with Africans.”

    Thomas Jefferson had an African woman for a mistress (and the mother of several of his children) and owned a number of them, your point? Is it that you think racism cannot be present in your situation? Think Strom Thurmond.

    There are african americans, vietnamese and hispanics in my family, by way of marriage. I can assure you that a number of my relatives and at least two of my siblings are racist, one of them virulently so–but they both love their mixed race nieces and nephews.

    “Yeah, I can see where you are totally justified calling me all of those names.”

    Really? You can? Great. I mean, I’m pretty sure that the first sally was from your piehole, not mine. You think that telling me to go fuck myself is okay but you don’t like it when I insult you? Cry me a fucking river.

    You actually sound very much like the sorta cracker asshole that said poll taxes and “literacy” tests were a good idea.

  • KG

    The word clan is used in East Africa to connote people of the same tribe but different familial hierarchies. This is a problem in Somalia because the vast majority of the people in that country belong to one “tribe” (Somali), having the same ethnicity, language and customs. They have formed “clans” that compete for land and power based on these familial ties thus the word clan is used to differentiate among these groups.

    In Ethiopia there is very little inter-tribal tension and thus “clan” is not a word associated there. – lancifer

    I’ll make this as simple as I can.

    The word “clan” is used in reference to Somalia and not Ethiopia, because in Somalia almost everyone is of one tribe (Somali). Conflicts there are between different clans of the same tribe hence the usage of the word clan.

    In Ethiopia conflicts rarely occur between members of the same tribe hence the word clan does not apply. – lancifer

    It would have been simpler if you knew the difference between “inter” and “intra”, you dolt.

  • lancifer

    KG,

    Yes, you got me! I noticed I had used “inter” instead of “intra” after reading my post the first time. I thought about noting it in a correcting post, but I thought only an idiot wouldn’t be able to tell, by context, that I had made this simple error and didn’t want to sound pedantic.

    You apparently have no such reservation.

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    Thomas Jefferson had an African woman for a mistress (and the mother of several of his children) and owned a number of them, your point? Is it that you think racism cannot be present in your situation? Think Strom Thurmond.

    Yeah, being married to an African woman and spending large amounts of time living with Africans in Africa is just like secretly knocking up one of your slaves or being an openly racist Dixiecrat that had a secret illicit out of wedlock child with a black woman.

    Do you have to be such an irrational prick?

    I only told you to go fuck yourself when you told me I had no right to identify with the ongoing political suppression of many of my friends and family members in Ethiopia. You deserved it.

    Hell, we even pretty much agree that these voter ID laws are useless and politically motivated but because I don’t go along with the idea that they are some nefarious plot to permanently “disenfranchise” minorities you call me a “racist tea-bagger”.

    How tolerant of you.

    Look I know this is the internet, and it’s not a very nice place sometimes. Heck, I even enjoy arguing with you…to a point.

    But c’mon faux-outrage and vitriol get tiresome after a while. You might want to throw in some humor or actually realize that conceding a minor point or two increases your credibility.

    Any way, it’s been fun sparring with you.

  • lancifer

    wareyin,

    Charging for the documents you require to get that “free” id you require to vote is a poll tax. What do you not get about that?

    What don’t you get about me not agreeing with your lame argument?

    Oh, and by the way the US Supreme Court agrees with me, not you.

    In 6 to 3 decision they ruled not to even hear the case on Indiana’s voter ID law.

    http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/07-21.pdf

    Justice Stevens, joined by Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Kennedy, found no showing of an undue burden on various voters who challenged the voter ID law on its face. Justices Scalia, Thomas and Alito would have upheld the law on the broader ground that it imposed the same requirements equally on all voters. Both opinions give great weight to the state interest in ensuring that only eligible voters cast ballots. Justice Souter, joined by Justices Breyer and Ginsburg, dissented.

    But hey, if you ask democommie he’ll tell you they’re just a bunch of “racist tea-baggers”.

  • dingojack

    Still waiting for the revision on your figure of less than 314 persons in the US do not have a drivers’ license. Pulling ‘facts’ from your rectum is not improving your (slim) creditability.

    Dingo

  • lancifer

    Dingo,

    Yes, you also got me. I threw out a tiny percentage as a rhetorical device and you took it literally. Bravo!

    I’ll direct you, as I did wareyin, to the Supreme Court decision agreeing, with me, that voter ID laws do not constitute a substantial barrier to voting rights.

    http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/07-21.pdf

    Now maybe you can look through the majority opinion and find and irrelevant nit to pick.

    I am sure the Justices would love to hear from you.

  • lancifer

    Dingo,

    Apparently I was too quick to cede your point. You are misrepresenting what I said (accidentally I’m sure.)

    I just realized you say,

    Still waiting for the revision on your figure of less than 314 persons in the US do not have a drivers’ license.

    Here is what I actually said,

    First of all the percentage of people living in the US that were never issued a birth certificate is some where around 0.0001% so it’s not exactly a wide spread problem.

    I later even pointed out that this was a rhetorical estimate but it was probably “of the same order of magnitude”.

    So bugger off you old sod! 😉

  • “Do you have to be such an irrational prick?

    I only told you to go fuck yourself when you told me I had no right to identify with the ongoing political suppression of many of my friends and family members in Ethiopia. You deserved it.”

    Oh, gosh, thanks for being the even handed arbiter of when it’s okay to tell people to go fuck themselves. You and Dickless Cheney, two peabrains in a pod.

    When you BECOME an Ethipian, let me know; meantime, your “experience” is not “experience”, umkay?

    And you,of course, can’t say “do you have to be speaking nonsense?”, when it’s so much more fun to say, “Do you have to be such an irrational prick.”. Once again, fuck you.

    “Yeah, being married to an African woman and spending large amounts of time living with Africans in Africa is just like secretly knocking up one of your slaves…”

    Um, not so secret, Mr. Jeffereson’s hanky-panky with Ms. Hemmings–SIX FUCKING TIMES:

    http://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-brief-account

    “or being an openly racist Dixiecrat that had a secret illicit out of wedlock child with a black woman.”

    Oh, there’s a “tell”.

    Strom Thurmond was a Dixiecrat from about 1946 until 1964 (about 18 years) but he was a Reptilican racist piece of shit from then until his untimely demise (way, way too late in life) in 2003. You’re labeling of him as a Dixiecrat is somewhat akin to those disgruntled racists who like to point at Senator Robert Byrd’s one time membership in the KKK (which he repudiated and apologized for). No, I’m afraid that when he is voted into the Hall of Shame that Sperm Thurmond was weain’ his Sunday go to cross-burnin’ best with a nice GOP logo in the chest. Sorry, you guys own that scumbag.

    “Hell, we even pretty much agree that these voter ID laws are useless and politically motivated but because I don’t go along with the idea that they are some nefarious plot to permanently “disenfranchise” minorities you call me a “racist tea-bagger”.

    Don’t think for a moment that I agree with you, pal. Your premise seems to be that they’re terrible fucking laws, but since they don’t cause you any problems that they are no big deal. That’s not even close to what I think about them.

    “But c’mon faux-outrage and vitriol get tiresome after a while. You might want to throw in some humor or actually realize that conceding a minor point or two increases your credibility.”

    Really, you think concessions make people more credible? Talk to Neville Chamberlain about that*. You don’t see the humor in my comments and yet all you see in Moudusoperandi’s IS humor, humor that you don’t like–too fucking bad.

    * In fairness, Mr. Chamberlain was hardly making all of the decisions but he sure got to take all of the blame for Munich.

  • dingojack

    Like I said – pulling ‘facts’ from your rectum…

    Dingo

    —–

    PS: I direct your attention to Dredd Scott, Justices say it was so, so it must be right! (Fallacy of Appeal to Authority, anyone?)

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    Only you would recoil at Strom being called a Dixiecrat. I was going to say Klansman but he had renounced that affiliation as well as being a Democrat. Both worthy renouncements in my book.

    “Your premise seems to be that they’re terrible fucking laws, but since they don’t cause you any problems that they are no big deal. ”

    Uh, thanks for putting word in my mouth. That seems to be your main debating tool.

    I think the laws are a waste of time, but do not cause undue inconvenience to anyone that really wants to vote.

    The democrats brought suite to challenge the Indiana voter ID law and the Supreme Court agreed with me.

    But, I’m sure if you had cursed them all out at the cert hearing it would have gone your way.

    And since when don’t I have the right to be outraged at the treatment of my wife, her family and my friends?

    Were you personally affected by these laws? Does that therefor mean you can’t express sympathy and outrage?

    If so you have a lot of spewing and venting to take back.

  • lancifer

    Dingo,

    I direct your attention to Dredd Scott, Justices say it was so, so it must be right!

    What, you couldn’t find a case decided by the Nazi High Courts?

    Comparing the recent Supreme Court decision to Dred Scott is right up there with Godwyning.

    Oh, and since you and KB are playing pedantic gotcha games,

    there is only one “d” at the end of Dred.

    By your logic that invalidates everything you have ever said.

  • Lancifer, honey:

    “Uh, thanks for putting word in my mouth. That seems to be your main debating tool.”

    The proximate cause of this thread reaching its current length is YOUR contention that the law imposes no undue hardship on ONE class of voters. I nor anyone else put those words in your mouth. Get your fucking head out of your ass.

    You claim to know the minds of the people of Ethiopian; I do not claim to know the minds of disenfranchised U.S. voters–there are ample first person testimonies to the effects of voter ID laws.

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    I didn’t presume to speak for Ethiopians, I just pointed out the fact that many were jailed and killed for protesting for fair elections. I doubt they would find presenting a free ID a relative hardship.

    Voter Id laws impose a one time minor inconvenience in the cause of preventing voter fraud.

    If you are so incensed about this inconvenience you should contact your state representative and encourage easier access to the documentation.

    As I pointed out the US Supreme court, in a six to three decision including that well known right-wing racist Justice John Paul Stevens, didn’t even think the question was worth a full hearing, so portraying me as some crazed racist tea-bagger because I don’t agree with you seems a bit extreme.

    Oh, and the Wisconsin State Supreme court also found no evidence that voter ID laws present any reasonably difficult barrier to voting and also refused to hear the case.

    Now I know you have gotten quite frothed up during our little discussion but perhaps a bit of perspective is in order here.

    I sometimes find your arguments compelling and even agree with you from time to time. But your over the top personal attacks and intransigent stance that I am a racist because I don’t agree with you on just a part of this issue is putting you in a very poor light.

  • “didn’t presume to speak for Ethiopians, I just pointed out the fact that many were jailed and killed for protesting for fair elections. I doubt they would find presenting a free ID a relative hardship.”

    Do you have any idea how many non-white americans were jailed and KILLED–simply for being black/wanting some sort of equality with whites–between 1492 and today?

    Your argument that the law is not that onerous might be a little difficult for those whose family members were lynched by whites. The never really dead, but recently quite active, practice of displaying the CSA’s battle flags on lawns, porches, homes, businesses and autos in areas where racial inequality was institutionalized for over two centuries is not really “hurting” anyone, is it? Is that okay with you?

    “Voter Id laws impose a one time minor inconvenience in the cause of preventing voter fraud.”

    Horseshit. They impose a “minor” inconvenience on those who have the means and time to get them–with a minor amount of inconvenience. You have willfully ignored others’ accounts of the difficulty that is encountered in these situations. You want it to be a minor inconvencience? Let folks get their ID at the post office or town clerk’s office. If they have no documentation, let them obtain it with their tax receipt or a signed affidavit with two witnesses. That would be minor–oh, and require that EVERYBODY get one. Fuck the firearms ID, military ID or other forms, everybody gets the same ID, watermarked, photo ID. That would be more than fair.

    “As I pointed out the US Supreme court, in a six to three decision including that well known right-wing racist Justice John Paul Stevens, didn’t even think the question was worth a full hearing, so portraying me as some crazed racist tea-bagger because I don’t agree with you seems a bit extreme.”

    Two words, “Dred Scott”. SCotUS has made some rather bad decisions over the years–notably in the area of race relations.

    The WI Supreme Court is one of 50 in the U.S.

    “Now I know you have gotten quite frothed up during our little discussion but perhaps a bit of perspective is in order here.”

    The perspective I have is that your original comment was incredibly stupid and that you’ve been doubling down ever since.

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    “The perspective I have is that your original comment was incredibly stupid and that you’ve been doubling down ever since.”

    My posts are stupid?

    You throw around nonsense about the Confederate flag and the plight of “non-whites” back to 1492 and then compare the current Supreme Court decision to Dred Scott and I’m the one doubling down on stupid?

    OK.

    Have a nice night.

  • dingojack

    And thus brave, brave Sir Lancifer flounces off into obscurity…

    Dingo

    —–

    PS I don’t what it’s like in the US, but here charities are reporting significant and increasing numbers of people they help are going without food in order to pay the rent.

    $16 (the price of ‘free’ IDs in Texas, excluding travel costs, time costs & etc.) is four or five days of dinners (often the only meal).

    Are you prepared, Lancifer, to ‘put your money where your mouth is’ and to experience the ‘minor inconvenience’ of not to eating for a couple of days in exchange for the ‘right’ to vote?

  • “You throw around nonsense about the Confederate flag and the plight of “non-whites” back to 1492 and then compare the current Supreme Court decision to Dred Scott and I’m the one doubling down on stupid”

    Yeah, I do throw around those things. I notice, and so does anyone else who’s still reading (Hi, dingojack!), that you refute none of them.

    Your original comment was stupid, insensitive and flat out fucking wrong. Live with it, asshole.

  • dingojack

    Hi Demo – nice morning where you are?

    Wish I had a butt-load of cash to throw around like our ol’ buddy Lance. For some of us money doesn’t just roll in like the tide.

    Dingo

  • KG

    Yes, you got me! I noticed I had used “inter” instead of “intra” after reading my post the first time. I thought about noting it in a correcting post, but I thought only an idiot wouldn’t be able to tell, by context, that I had made this simple error and didn’t want to sound pedantic.

    You apparently have no such reservation. – lancifer

    You think that correcting an error that made complete nonsense of what you were trying to say would be “pedantic”. I think that tells us quite a bit about you.

  • dingojack:

    It is currently 62 degrees farenheit (I think that’s the boiling point of water in centripedalfuge) and the sun is shining–OR, it’s really just the effect of a large pile of the burnin’ stoopit that’s giving all of that heat, ‘cept that wouldn’t esplain the bright light.

  • Anri

    “If only them durn poor people wern’t so durn lazy, I might actually give a flying flip about their ‘rights’! Stuff that ain’t hard fer me ain’t hard fer anyone!”

    …did I get that right?

  • lancifer

    Folks,

    Your dispeptic remarks are not improving the unfounded claims of your argument.

    Here is the portion of Justice John Paul Stevens’ majority opinion that pertains to our discussion.

    The relevant burdens here are those imposed on eligible voters who lack photo identification cards that comply with SEA 483. Because Indiana’s cards are free, the inconvenience of going to the Bureau of Motor Vehicles, gathering required documents, and posing for a photograph does not qualify as a substantial burden on most voters’ right to vote, or represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting. The severity of the somewhat heavier burden that may be placed on a limited number of persons—e.g., elderly persons born out-of-state, who may have difficulty obtaining a birth certificate— is mitigated by the fact that eligible voters without photo identification may cast provisional ballots that will be counted if they execute the required affidavit at the circuit court clerk’s office. Even assuming that the burden may not be justified as to a few voters, that conclusion is by no means sufficient to establish petitioners’ right to the relief they seek.

    Did you catch the part about poor and elderly people that feel that obtaining documentation may present an undue burden can cast a provisional ballot that will be counted if they execute an affidavit at the circuit court clerk’s office?

    So even those poor few souls that have some extremely rare circumstances that prevent them from getting proper documentation can file a “free affidavit” and vote.

    So now what whiny bullshit are you going to throw out to claim “disenfranchisement”?

    Not that I expect a substantive reply, since one hasn’t been provided in quite some time.

  • lancifer

    KG,

    Here is the mistake in context,

    The word clan is used in East Africa to connote people of the same tribe but different familial hierarchies. This is a problem in Somalia because the vast majority of the people in that country belong to one “tribe” (Somali), having the same ethnicity, language and customs. They have formed “clans” that compete for land and power based on these familial ties thus the word clan is used to differentiate among these groups.

    In Ethiopia there is very little inter-tribal tension and thus “clan” is not a word associated there.

    It was in a sentence that was after the point was made about being in the “same” tribe. So anyone with a lukewarm IQ would have clearly known that I meant to use the suffix “intra”.

    I suspect you knew that and just wanted to take a cheap shot at me anyway.

    If it really did confuse you I would suggest you improve your reading comprehension skills, but sadly your lukewarm IQ is permanent.

  • dingojack

    Hmmm let’s see free is it?

    “The Indiana identification card resembles a driver license, but has a non-driver label at the top. All ages are eligible to receive a state ID. The cards cost $13 and are valid for six years. If you are at least 65 years old or disabled, the cost is $10. If you can’t afford to pay for a state ID card, you may be issued one for free if the proper documentation is presented”.

    [Emphasis mine]

    Looks like the good judge hasn’t been down to the DMV lately. It could be free – if you provide the right documentation. What is the right documentation? Dunno, they don’t say.

    $13 is approximately 3-4 days without eating; $10 is approximately 3 days.

    Ever go without food for 3 to 4 days?

    Dingo

  • dingojack

    “They lie, the men who tell us in a loud decisive tone

    That want is here a stranger, and that misery’s unknown;

    For where the nearest suburb and the city proper meet

    My window-sill is level with the faces in the street —

    Drifting past, drifting past,

    To the beat of weary feet —

    While I sorrow for the owners of those faces in the street”

    Faces in the Street. – Henry Lawson.

  • “Did you catch the part about poor and elderly people that feel that obtaining documentation may present an undue burden can cast a provisional ballot that will be counted if they execute an affidavit at the circuit court clerk’s office?”

    Verizon* and a number of other large corporations, much like the court in this instance, tout their compassion and sense of fair play by saying things such as the paragraph that you cite.

    Have you or anyone you know ever been poor or elderly and attempted to access the mechanism that you mention. Where is the circuit court clerk’s office? Is it near a bus route, is it open after your non-subsistence minimum wage shift ends? Do they have someone who will assist you with reading the forms if you are blind or otherwise unable to read them? More importantly, and totally left out of your comment is whether the average person will even have convenient access to something that they know nothing about–the provisional voting process–BEFORE it’s too late to exercise their right to vote on election day.

    You ignore my comment about making the ID universal, why is that? Is it because there are some people whose rights are superior and others whose aren’t equal? Maybe you only have racist feelings about those who aren’t high performing members of society–it’s still fucking racism and you’re still a fucking racist.

    * I know a whole shitload about Verizon after about 40 years of doing business with them and their former iterations of AT&T, NE Telephone and Bell Atlantic–as well as working for them for eight years.

  • lancifer

    DingoJack,

    You moron, if you had spent another thirty seconds on the BMV website you would have seen that down about a quarter of a page is,

    Identification card for voting purposes

    New or renewed.

    Valid for six years.

    FREE

    And as I have already quoted the state will even waive the required documents if you are willing to file a free affidavit.

    Have any inane little songs for senile big mouths?

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    My wife has a few words for you.

    You’ll have to do better than calling my husband a racist.He loves me, my country & my family.We have been married seven years.He is not a racist.

    Why always some people think about race in relation to any problem. We are living in 21st century not 17th century we need to expand our mind away from this poisonous thinking.

    We have to break the cycle of this pattern of negative thinking. The next generation should not be infected with this idea.We need to STOP !

    Have a nice day !

    -Kidist

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    She was a lot nice than I would have been.

    Later.

  • lancifer

    KG,

    Let me fix that last post so you don’t spend hours in confusion. “Nice” should have read “nicer”.

  • Lancifer:

    Oh, dear, now you’ve got to ask your wife to come to bat for you?

    Your original comment was a boneheaded, racist comment. Not my fault or anyone else’s that you’re too fucking stupid to get that. As I said much earlier, I’m sure that your wife is a lovely person, I’m not sure that she has good taste in mates.

    You simply don’t want to admit that you made a major fucking mistake about a sizable demographic. Keep on digging the fucking hole.

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    She just happened to be reading over my shoulder and saw that you had called me a racist. She found the remark so absurd that she had to comment.

    You haven’t addressed the issue in many posts preferring to call me idiotic names.

    My wife asked me why I bother responding to you.

    I really don’t have an answer for her.

  • I don’t have a wife; if I did she would probably ask me the same question. Unlike you I would have an answer.

    The answer would be that clueless fucks who keep their cluelessness out of the public fora are entitled to their thoughts on whatever subject they’re thinking about. When the same clueless fucks insist on making their nonsense a matter of public record they deserve disdain and derision. Cluelessfuckville seems to be your hometown on this thread.

  • dingojack

    Hey Lanceybaby – got a linky for that DMV page? Sure you do.

    Dingo

  • lancifer

    democommie,

    “Cluelessfuckville seems to be your hometown on this thread.”

    Yeah, just me and Justice Stevens (and the other five justices in the majority opinion) hanging out here in Cluelessfuckville.

    How’s the weather there in Crankyolddumbasscity?

    You haven’t made a cogent point in over a week, and that point was easily refuted.

  • lancifer

    Dingo Jack,

    Since you can’t be bothered to make a simple Google search.

    http://www.in.gov/bmv/2837.htm

    You’re welcome.

  • “Yeah, just me and Justice Stevens (and the other five justices in the majority opinion) hanging out here in Cluelessfuckville.”

    So, you liked Dred Scott, then? And you musta loved Kelo v City of New London. I’m guessing though, that given your view of the current state of affairs re: voter ID’s, that the majority of the decisions listed here:

    http://akorra.com/2010/03/03/top-10-most-controversial-u-s-supreme-court-rulings/

    must’ve piss you off no end.

    “You haven’t made a cogent point in over a week, and that point was easily refuted.”

    Really? Then I guess you won’t mind furnishing that exchange.