I Don’t Want an Apology From Troy University Chancellor

The most meaningful apology would be a resignation.

…an unnamed visiting Marxist economist from China who came to Harvard and discovered “how critical religion is to the functioning of democracy.”

I’m guessing said Marxist was referring to the fact that you have to be part of the right religion to get the full benefit of our democracy.

…a familiar theme among the America religious right – that the decline of church-going is responsible a rising tide of lawlessness and a moral decay that could ultimately lead to America’s fall, as it did for Rome’s.

Someone needs to tell this guy that Rome fall AFTER it became predominantly Christian, not before. And the Christians didn’t really replace it with anything better, until secular progressives started inventing better political and economic institutions — all of which the most devoutly religious people HATED FROM DAY ONE.

In 1969, Montreal was heavily catholic, home to a magnificent cathedral, and home to a number of religious orders. One day, the Montreal police went on strike. The result? 16 hours of chaos, including bank robberies, looting, arson and the murder of a provincial police officer. Apparently, religion does nothing to instill voluntary obedience to the law, and you can, in fact, hire enough police officers to keep the populace in line.

Apparently, Prof. Hawkins’ academic specialty is not history.

But what would an apology mean if he gave one? He actually believes this nonsense.

The American Atheists aren’t asking him to apologize for his beliefs. He’s being asked to apologize for using university resources and his position as chancellor to promote his beliefs. He can keep his beliefs and still recognize that what he did was wrong.

If that Chinese Marxist student really exists, it doesn’t say much for him that his “realization” was an uncritical observation of bullshit. Religion may be pretty pervasive in American “democracy” but what about democracy in Norway or Sweden, or even in Canada? I just watched some videos of a show called Norden on YouTube where they bring foreign people (so far Americans) to tour the Nordic countries with reference to certain institutions so they can compare what goes on at home with what goes on there. The latest episode was on policing. The LA cop was amazed to spend an afternoon walking about a small city in I believe it was Norway and not encounter any cops–and not encounter any crimes or frightened people either. So much for the idea that without much religion democracy would fail and society devolve into violent anarchy which would then require an infinite army of police to control.

So, a Harvard Business School professor thinks that more church-going makes people obey the law more, does he? It’s interesting that the Teapot Dome scandal, and the original Ponzi scheme both took place in the 1920’s when church attendance was much higher than today. Or do they not teach about those things at the Harvard Business School?

the decline of church-going

It seems that various jeebus drooling fans have pulled their asinine heads out of the sand and have perceived that the borders of their known universe are shrinking and diminishing day by day.

A little reality for the doofus gleaned from the Hartford Institute of Religion Research Research,…

Frightening stats for the deluded…

more than 40 percent of Americans “say” they go to church weekly. As it turns out, however, about 20 percent are actually in church. In other words, more than 80 percent of Americans are finding more fulfilling things to do on weekends

That is a massively steep mountain trail to trudge up there kapitano!… furthermore dealing with xtians who are known to lie does not make the task any easier.

Somewhere between 4,000 and 7,000 churches close their doors every year. Southern Baptist researcher, Thom Rainer, in a recent article entitled “13 Issues for Churches in 2013” puts the estimate higher. He says between 8,000 and 10,000 churches will likely close this year.

Again the tipping point has passed well and truly now it is definite decline, and not even stagnation, it is not likely in any universe that those figures could ever reverse substantially to their former glory.

Between the years 2010 and 2012, more than half of all churches in America added not one new member. Each year, nearly 3 million more previous churchgoers enter the ranks of the “religiously unaffiliated.”

.

And that is the proverbial nail in their collective coffin, more then half the churches report no new membership…devastating really.

Ranting and railing against atheism might impress the diehard legions but the writing is there plain and clear.

It is desperation at the realization they are dying and the whole edifice of the meme is slipping slowly but surely into the tar pit of historical ridiculousness.

Anubisprime —

24 Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written.

25 And this is the writing that was written, Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin.

26 This is the interpretation of the thing: Mene; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.

27 Tekel; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.

28 Peres; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.

Dingo

Ed writes:

But what would an apology mean if he gave one? He actually believes this nonsense.

Jack Hawkins is an official of a public university. He should be apologizing for defaming groups of people. In addition to defaming some groups, his argument is almost solely dependent on lies beyond his defamation. The only true [inferred] premise I noticed in what’s written in Ed’s blog post above was the country’s becoming less religious.

Troy U. is a public college. Public educators should be held accountable when they promote sectarian religion. We didn’t delegate any power to any politicians to use their goverment position to promote Christianity or any other religion. So Chancellor Hawkins needs to apologize for arguing from his government position of authority that we should grant additional powers to the state that even the framers knew would infringe upon our freedom of conscience rights. (Hence not just the religious freedom clause to the 1st Amendment, but the establishment clause as well.)

Lastly, Chancellor Hawkins’ job is to educate people, not misinform them. So it’s especially reprehensible that a government official is misinforming the public.

anubisprime @ # 12 – I went to the report you linked, and could not find any of the quotations you blockquoted. ??!?

Yes indeed, peer pressure from group and family was a massive incentive to tow the ‘party’ line.

That cycle seems to be coming apart, young adults are moving further from the traditional home then they used to for work, the chains of community although strong in the local area has no hold when victims are somewhat removed from that sphere of influence.

The shackles are not so robust as they were a couple of generations ago, the pressure is reduced and the majority appear to want secular freedoms in their life, and not the drudgery of kissing the pastor’s ass whatever the sermon and whatever the inanity expressed.

Added to that the internet has really been the dagger to the heart of religious affiliation, certain claims and assertions can be checked against a massive global database, and mostly found wanting, that genii is out of the bottle …it ain’t going back in anytime soon.

The killer is the actual legions that profess to be jeebus sunbeams, their average age is tilting to the elderly side of the scale.

In Ireland, for example, the RCC fear that after another 5 -10 yrs they will run out of priests that are Irish born, as natural wastage and retirement finish off the present majority of the church hierarchy, and there is no vast numbers of replacement as there were traditionally….Churches will simply close and be sold on eventually.

The same is true of the actual congregations they are expected to fade along with their priests for roughly the same reasons…they are an aging and ultimately dying breed…

This present generation is the most secular based ever witnessed in the religious history of Ireland…this ancient and traditional jewel in the Vatican crown has grown dull and splintered, the Vatican are still in shock and hoping it is just a temporary blip due to the horror and anger at the abuse scandals, but that is flying in the face of the actual reality…tis over Francis…suck it up kidda…two generations it is all but dead and very smelly.

Belgium is even more spectacular in its religious decline…really devastating for the deluded that they are slipping in their death grip markedly by percentages that seemed fantasy not a decade ago.

Literally the meme is dying on the vine everywhere, some places a little slower some a little faster…but all are going in the same direction.

The USA is , or was, the last bastion of the xtian scam, and as such was impregnable just a quarter of a century ago, but it is crumbling from the inside, no external forces were necessary, and that kind of diminishment is usually the most convincing and always the most deadly to the meme.

It will take a long time compared to other fading religious cultures for sure but then there was, and is, an awful lot to actually fade, but fade it will, that die is cast and nothing will reverse it, especially some unknown character whining about ‘a moral decay that could ultimately lead to America’s fall, as it did for Rome’s.’

No one is really listening bud, only the brain dead, and they are just scandalized and not really motivated even if they knew what to do, which they don’t.

Sorry for the rant, habit of a lifetime 😉

Synfandel says

January 13, 2015 at 1:18 pm

A personal case in point: My parents stopped going to church as soon as they left their parents’ homes (circa 1950). My siblings and I have never felt any urge to take up the practice.

My personal case in point somewhat mirrors your point. My Mom did not come from a very religious family. My Dad came for a devout Roman Catholic upbringing – though Dad also wanted nothing to do with religion once he left house. My Mom actually got into it with Dad’s Mom when we visited. My parents did it right, they let my Sister choose. I choose to stay home and watch baseball while my Sister went through confirmations. She lives in GR (Grand Rapids), and married one of the majority of Christian Calvinists.

Weird how she found solace in religion where I found nothing? At least, she is a very liberal Christian. I am interested in seeing how their kids handle religion once they are out of the house. And, of course, my Dad as well as my Mom now are finding solace in religion as they get older and have health scares.

Religion, and religious beliefs, are weird?

This is probably better discussed elsewhere, but a question for pondering ….

From anubisprime @12;

Somewhere between 4,000 and 7,000 churches close their doors every year. … [ a resesearcher] … says between 8,000 and 10,000 churches will likely close this year.

Small businesses are put out of business by the big-box discount retailers opening in their area. I wonder if the “megachurches” pull members from the small churches and contribute to their demise?

Marcus Ranum @25

Good catch – “Unnamed” is the christian word for fictitious person.

The video, narrated by Clayton Christensen, the Harvard Business School professor

In other words someone who teaches grifters how to grift.

This:

American Atheists, the leading atheist pressure group in the US, said it was demanding an apology after receiving a complaint from a Troy student who was offended by the message.

kind of thing always bugs me. The problem isn’t that the student “was offended” – we have NO right not to be offended. The problem is that in this publicly funded university, the student’s (and in fact, everyone’s) rights under the 1st Amendment of the United States Constitution were violated. You cannot have public endorsement of religion. Period.

anubisprime @ 20:

Yes indeed, peer pressure from group and family was a massive incentive to tow the ‘party’ line.

Toe. You put your toe on a line to conform. The party line is not something you drag.

Thank you. (dismounts personal hobby horse)

…an unnamed visiting Marxist economist from China who came to Harvard and discovered “how critical religion is to the functioning of democracy.

Two questions come to mind: WTF are they teaching about Marxism in China these days? And WTF are they teaching about democracy at Harvard these days?

Watching it. its worse than I could have imagined

What other institution will each people to obey–really?

An atheist character in one of Euripides’ lost satyr plays says, “When the force of law established public order, but men still did hidden wrong, then it was that some clever man invented the idea that there were gods to fear.”

That’s basically what Hawkins is saying. We need the fiction of religion to maintain social order. it evidently does not occur to him to try to make the social order just instead.