Trump’s Nationalism is Incompatible with Christianity

Trump’s Nationalism is Incompatible with Christianity October 25, 2018

Speaking at an election rally for Texas Senator Ted Cruz, Trump admitted to being a nationalist:

You know, they have a word. It sort of became old-fashioned. It’s called a nationalist. And I say, really, we’re not supposed to use that word. You know what I am? I’m a nationalist, OK? I’m a nationalist.

This is hardly a revelation. Trump’s actions have already earned him this label. But it indicates  another milestone in Trump’s chipping away at democracy and human rights. It is one more reason why Christians must stand in opposition to this president.

Christians are called to put God and neighbor first rather America first.

Nationalism is different than patriotism. Nationalists see their country is innately superior and support their own interests to the exclusion or expense of others. White Christian nationalists form the core of Trump’s base supporters. His actions have already laid groundwork for his outward embrace of nationalism. We saw it when he called Mexicans rapists and African and Caribbean countries s-hole countries; when he refused to condemn Neo Nazi and KKK violence in Charlottesville; when he imposed a Muslim Ban and when he adopted policies that separated nursing babies and toddlers from their moms and dads.

Trump in this speech also alleged that “globalists” do not love their country. First of all, the assertion that people who value international alliances and human rights treaties are unpatriotic is patently false. One can love their country, as I do, while caring about how our nation’s policies and actions affect God’s children in other countries and caring about human rights and peacemaking. Second, this term globalist, a favorite of Steve Bannon and other white supremacists, has a long history of being an anti-semitic dog whistle.

Here are two fundamental reasons nationalism doesn’t work for Christians: First, we believe in human dignity as described in Genesis and the creation story. Human beings are created in God’s image and to be treated with dignity and respect regardless of nationality, race or religion. Second, love of God is inextricably intertwined with love of neighbor. Jesus told us the Greatest Commandment was to love God, and the second was tied to it: love your neighbor as yourself. When asked to define neighbor Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan, a foreigner of a different faith who showed hospitality. The neighbor is one who refuses to pass a foreigner by on the other side even when his own life is endangered by helping.

This ethic must be reflected not just in our personal actions but in the laws we support. We can’t feel good about giving food to starving people when we vote for policies that cause them to starve. We cannot help build schools in Latin America and pat ourselves on the back while we vote for policies that kill Latin American children.

Judaism and Christianity advanced a powerful ethic: the conviction that laws should honor human dignity and fairness. “Remember, you were once slaves in Egypt,” God told the Israelites repeatedly. Therefore take care of the widow, the orphan, the refugee, the poor.

America has been at her best when we drew from Judeo-Christian ethics, reflecting them in a constitution, legal system and a foreign policy that defended human rights. To be sure we have more often than not failed to actually live out this ethic despite our lofty rhetoric. This nation was built on slavery, the genocide of Native Americans and theft (violating over 500 treaties with First Nations). After the brief period of Reconstruction, Jim Crow segregation laws for nearly 100 years implemented slavery by another name. America returned boatloads of Jews fleeing Hitler to their deaths in Europe and delayed support to allies until it was nearly too late. Each of these catastrophes illustrate what happens when a people fails to follow God, embracing instead an ultranationalist, xenophobic and greed driven politics.

The alt right or white supremacists that Trump has all but endorsed view Christianity as a plague. The alt right teaches that Christianity has inserted a “pathological altruism” into American culture. They believe that “Like Acid, Christianity burns through the ties of kinship and blood” so critical to ethno-nationalist projects.

Today Christians must see Trump’s brand of nationalism as an attack on our faith and on our country. Let us instead strive for a nation that honors human dignity rather than embracing a racist nationalism based on hatred and fear of neighbor. Our core identity can either be lodged firmly in Christ or our nation. We must choose.


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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • I will also note that in some countries “nationalist” means “racist”.

  • Joseph Quesnel

    hahahahaha… Right. Does Patheos do anything but endlessly pontificate about Pres. Trump? Aren’t there other issues in the world that interest you? Now, we know you don’t take the Bible or the Gospel seriously, so you’ve replaced that with a dogmatic religion of Trump hatred?

  • Xavier de la Torre

    The issue at hand is an urgent one. Troll.

  • Xavier de la Torre

    wait – I forgot: hahahahaha

  • And look where that got European Western democracies. They’re burning now and will be gone in another generation.

  • Joseph Quesnel

    Is “troll” how you deal with arguments? Name call. Does Patheos ever engage in self-criticism over its obsession with Pres. Trump?

  • Robert Conner

    Don the Con’s incompatible with Christianity? Not what I’ve heard.

  • Well we live in this country and nationalist does not mean racist.

  • Very cogent snapshot of Patheos. The Left is mentally deranged. Example: Kill children in the womb and sell their body parts while lecturing the Right on civility, decorum and Christian principles.

  • Childish comment showing no debating skill.

  • No it does not. Patheos has equated Trump with Satan and tries to destroy him at all costs. When in fact the Left is like a self indulgent child throwing a tantrum.

  • Janice Holladay

    Thank you for attempting to lay this out. This is a crisis of faith to be sure. I cannot back what is happening in this country, and my faith compels me to fight against the demise of my country and the bastardization of my country.

  • Janice Holladay

    I started voting D more often when I realized the R approach to abortion didn’t work and was more about gaining funding and power.

    I never knew that abortion rates dropped since Roe. When I dug into information and data, I fear R policies will increase abortion rates. The R platform in Texas is elimination of sex education in our schools. Solid sex ed has been shown to reduce unwanted pregnancies, thus reducing abortions. Access to birth control and healthcare impact abortion rates. Look at maternal death rates, and look at infant mortality rates. We need to do better. This will reduce the actual medical needs for abortion. And, if parents know adequate healthcare will be available for their kids, that will likely reduce abortions. We need to look at daycare, at education, at women’s rights, at social safety networks.

    Roe V Wade did not increase the rate of abortions as expected. Instead, abortion rates have steadily dropped.

    I abhor abortion, but we need to look at what works and doesn’t end up with lots of dead women.

    Sadly, the majority of women I know who had abortions, both as teens and into their adult years, did so because they didn’t want their church or their parents’ church to know they were pregnant. They had abortions out of fear of being shamed by their church.

    Roe v Wade will be challenged. Over the top conservative policies will be pushed. If that succeeds, I anticipate an increase in the rate of abortions.

  • Brandon Roberts

    reasonable patriotism is good nationalism is not.

  • Marion Wiley

    Yes, it’s a mess, and I don’t care which side of the aisle you’re talking about. As Christians, as you say, we put the Kingdom of God first, not politics. Government is so incredibly corrupt, the political process is corrupt, everything is driven by money and power, period. Just check out Koch Bros agenda. I was Republican but the hate I’ve seen in Christians has pushed me out of any political allegiance at all. I pledge allegiance to the Lamb. I highly recommend The Myth of a Christian Nation by Gregory Boyd.

  • “There have been roughly 60 million abortions since the case was decided in 1973.” That is 60,000,000 in the USA; that is a huge number of unborn children.

    You said, “Roe V Wade did not increase the rate of abortions as expected. Instead, abortion rates have steadily dropped.” That is not true.

    Abortions doubled after Roe for 20 years and then dropped back for the next 20 years to 1973 levels.

  • Xavier de la Torre

    There is absolutely no need on God’s green earth to debate a troll. None.

  • William Turner

    Spare me. This nation only exists because of Christian violence and oppression against Natives and Africans. Give it up. Bad joke.

  • MurphsLaw

    What about that church and state separation thingy?
    Rendér unto Caesar as well on the other side of that equation.
    If there is anything to choose- choose truth and honesty. Not narratives.

  • Widuran

    Spot on

  • Widuran

    Yes indeed

  • Widuran

    Trump is OK. He is not the bogey man coming to get you!

  • Brianna LaPoint

    Everyone is an induvidual. some christians would say youre wrong, and some would agree. Me? This is a part of why im NOT christian! because not only do christians not get along with other christians, they have the audacity to use the old, no true christian. To them you are wrong. its all a matter of perspective. Me? I use christians slamming other christians as a testament to why i left christianity, jesus and the bible.

  • Brianna LaPoint

    America has been at her best when we drew from Judeo-Christian ethics, reflecting them in a constitution, legal system and a foreign policy that defended human rights. Oh no you did not. the founding fathers were Diests. Let me say it in laymen’s, Agnostics with window dressing. Another reason i dont sing to the christian tune, because most dont know history.

  • Brianna LaPoint

    a fetus isnt a baby. A baby is a baby and a miscarriage is God giving people abortions. Also if you have a wang in between your legs, you shouldnt have an opinion/.

  • Kerry Wells

    I interacted with Jesus as the consciousness of the Sun, our star.

    I wrote an ebook about my experiences that is free to download, and I the ebook is also available on blogger, links are below
    link to my free ebook, “Messages from the Sun God, Jesus Christ”

    link to the ebook on blogger:


  • Kerry Wells

    I interacted with Jesus Christ as the consciousness of the Sun, our star.

    I wrote an ebook about my experiences that is free to download, and I the ebook is also available on blogger, links are below
    link to my free ebook, “Messages from the Sun God, Jesus Christ”

    link to the ebook on blogger:


  • Hating Christians and Christianity does not make a fetus any less a baby. Only the most self centered person could say that. A baby is a gift from God and taking its life is killing another human being. Would you take the baby from the womb and smash its head on the table? At what point does a fetus become a baby?

    God says differently. Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. Wait until you have to justify your disgusting position to God after the resurrection,

    As to your wang comment, that is anti-LGTB and you should lose your Liberal card for that Liberal heresy.

  • HematitePersuasion

    Trump’s Nationalism is Incompatible With Christianity As Interpreted By Columnist

    And yet.

  • newenglandsun

    In Poland it does not.

  • Joshua Sonofnone

    Fifty-three of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were active members of their churches, while three of them truly were Deists. – I have a degree in history and I have researched this.

  • Dennis

    Rev. Jen Butler: You are creating a false dichotomy. You state “Nationalism is different than patriotism. Nationalists see their country is innately superior and support their own interests to the exclusion or expense of others.” That is your nuance of the difference. Trump realizes that the U.S. needs to trade with other nations and have relationships with them to reduce the threat of global war. So he does not want to isolate America to the “exclusion” or “expense” of other nations. He just wants to put America first in getting good trade deals and in security. Does that make him a nationalist or a patriot? It doesn’t matter to me what you call it. I just look at the results. I am a Christian and don’t see how Trump’s policies mean that I have to decide to follow Christ or follow Trump. I want to live in a country that is prosperous (by putting America first in trade) and that is secure (by strong immigration policies) so that I can worship as I please. You cite two reasons why you think nationalism doesn’t work for Christians: human dignity and love of God/neighbor. You have not proven your point of how Trump’s implemented policies work against these two points. The U.S. is not a theocracy to support your interpretation of how Christianity should be applied.

  • angeleyes333

    “The U.S. is not a theocracy to support your interpretation of how Christianity should be applied.” I think many Right to Life folks think differently. “You cite two reasons why you think nationalism doesn’t work for Christians: human dignity and love of God/neighbor.” As Jesus said with His OWN mouth, these are of the highest priority. When what YOU want is contrary to what HE wants, there’s a problem. It’s rank arrogance. Luke 11:42 is instructive: “Woe to you Pharisees! You pay tithes of mint and rue and every herb, but you disregard justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former.”

  • Dennis

    You say “When what YOU want is contrary to what HE wants, there’s a problem.” You have not proven to me how supporting Trump’s policies is mutually exclusive with following Christ.

  • bill wald

    My neighbors are the people who live in West Seattle, not the people who live in West Africa. Not even if they come here on a tourist visa. They are tourists.

  • bill wald

    Depends upon how one defines “work.” For example, hanging convicted murderers “works” one convicted murderer at a time.

  • bill wald

    Well, when considers that more than half of all fetuses are spontaneously aborted . . . what does God do regarding the fetuses He aborts?

  • bill wald

    I see the USA as innately superior from its conception, all things considered. What nations are on your list of innately superior nations?

  • bill wald

    OK, there are no Christian nations . . . agreed. The USA is the best of the unchristian nations.OK?

  • bill wald Is interesting. The way I read it, a patriot “likes,” even is “proud” of his nation, but would not die for his nation . . . might side with the nation who mad the best offer.

  • Dennis

    I was quoting Jen Butler’s definition of nationalism when I used “innately superior.” I don’t know if I have a list of innately superior nations. My point to Jen was that whether you call me a patriot or a nationalist, I like America and Trump’s policies.

  • ProfessorKirke

    God destined Israel to be a nation with a mission, to be a blessing to all the families of the earth (Genesis 12:1-3). When he returns as King, Jesus will preside from David’s Throne in Jerusalem, Israel’s eternal capital city. So, “nationalism” may be “incompatible” with some form of Christianity that does not know, or denies, its roots… and future status… but not with a Christianity that understands “nationalism” from a biblical point of view. It is a good thing, a means of remaining strong and as long as it remains an ally of Israel, as I see it. So, if looking at it a certain way, maybe Jesus is a “nationalist,” too?

  • From what I see miscarriages run 20-25%; a lot higher than I what I would have guessed. As to God, He does have a plan for them. They will be part of the great white throne resurrection.

  • Tom Borromeo

    I plead, 50+ MILLION aborted babies since Roe vs Wade.
    Not a good metric.
    If that is the way Planned Parenthood & the DEM’d sway you, do be careful not to be a “useful IDIOT” to those who use “Freedom of choice” etc. to continue to kill babies.
    It is as simple as that.

  • Tom Borromeo

    God does not abort, weak humans do.
    Losing one’s child through no fault if their own absolves one of any guilt.
    Where do these ‘little ones’ go ?
    “Limbo,” Catholicism might say, but one can be assured that such innocent souls will go back to it’s Creator and He wills.

  • Tom Borromeo

    Indeed, a difficult, confusing mess
    So then, STOP the confusion, … simplify, …
    bring it down to it’s basic issues.
    Pro -America,
    Be pro-Life
    BOTH, patently GoOD.

  • Tom Borromeo

    You wrong yourself at the very outset.
    First you posit Judaeo-Christian and then end up with “Another reason I don’t sing to the christian tune, …”
    Which is it?

  • Tom Borromeo

    Q.E.D. Indeed !
    And you spell “Deist” correctly !

  • Tom Borromeo

    The Truth shall make you free.
    Western Civilisation was built on the Judaeo-Christian ethic, specifically the Catholic Church.
    Why let bad Christians dictate your ethic?

  • Tom Borromeo

    as simple as that Sir.
    I totally agree.
    M. A. G. A.
    that always has legs !

  • Widuran

    Yes indeed the media are parasites

  • Freespirit

    Great article BUT one does not have to be of ANY religion,to agree with the MORAL tenets expressed

    One simply must recognize Natural Law – that ALL Humans have the SAME RIGHTS to Life, Liberty and Property

  • Credy Stevens

    I experienced Jesus Christ as the consciousness of the Sun. I wrote an ebook
    about my experiences that is free to download in pdf form, and the ebook
    is also available on blogger. Links are below,

    link to my free ebook, “Messages from the Sun God, Jesus Christ”

    link to the ebook on blogger:


  • ounbbl

    God? What God? Which God? Whose God? Your God?

  • james warren

    There are various forms of “Nationalism”but one common belief is that “My Nation is better than others.”

    Racism can be broadly understood to be the belief that “My race is better than others.”
    Given how close these ideas are, it isn’t surprising that there are many nationalists who are also racist.

  • Faulty illogical reasoning. Trying to draw a connection where none exists. Racism today is just another example of Liberalism perpetuating a large class of victims whose only hope is a big Democrat government. Nothing more nothing less.

  • jekylldoc

    In general I agree with you that Rev. Butler has tried to impose a false dichotomy. However, much of the rest of your commentary falls into a false dichotomy itself. For example, you suggest that Trump wants to put America first in getting good trade deals and in security. This assumes that the trade deals we have had were not good for America. Although certain particular slices of America have suffered from some trade deals (as always happens with any lowering of trade barriers) the gains to others, for example farmers and airplane assemblers, have been much larger (as always happens with any lowering of trade barriers). So far Trump has not done much damage with his “bully first, then negotiate” strategy, but neither has he brought net benefits to American workers and producers. It’s unlikely that he ever could – the realities of economics are against “nationalism” of that type.

    In general, Trump’s rhetoric has worked from a mindset that says anyone else’s gain is our loss. This flies in the face of everything we know about economic forces. He completely misunderstands the trade deficit, for example, even though I am sure that Mnuchin and others have tried to explain what is going on. Even immigration, which you somehow equate with insecurity as if we were scattered bands of hunter-gatherers whose land is being invaded by a horde of farmers, turns out to be at least as likely to benefit us as to harm us at the levels that have prevailed for the last 40 years. Globalism is simply a better informed and more strategic path to benefit for our citizens. You acknowledge this yourself when you say Trump realizes that the U.S. needs to trade with other nations and have relationships with them to reduce the threat of global war.

    In short, my problem with “America first” rhetoric is that it assumes a win-lose world where one does not exist, and thereby threatens the enormous benefits of the last 30 years of increased globalism.

  • jekylldoc

    As simple as that? Really? I personally don’t think an abortion in the first trimester is taking a life. And those who do, like yourself, are imposing that a woman pregnant through rape must carry the child to term. I consider that a barbaric abomination.

  • jekylldoc

    This is not helpful. Speaking as a progressive, Rev. Butler could have done a much better job of calling out antagonistic nationalism, covertly racist nationalism, and nationalism just for appearance sake, without trying to impose some definition on the word. The idea that globalism could be helpful to our nation is no more strange than the idea that a government and a set of laws could be helpful to me personally. Humans are very good at benefiting through cooperation, while antagonism generates nothing but tragedy and more hatred.

  • Dennis

    Trump’s MAGA strategy is working and is better off than hands-off globalism. See:

  • jekylldoc

    The notion of “hands-off” globalism is a fiction. You can make arguments about strategy, and it is possible that Trump’s approach is good strategy, but as an economist it looks very much like he is much more worried about appearing to be confrontational than about actually securing improvements for Americans. The steel and aluminum tariffs have been a huge disruption to international order and have hurt downstream industries such as autos more than they have helped the industries protected, as is normally the case with tariffs.

  • /it looks very much like he is much more worried about appearing to be confrontational than about actually securing improvements for Americans./ (!) Possibly this confrontationalism / smash-and-grab is equivalent to securing improvements for Americans … in his dreams and his fevered imagination. The fruit of cognitive dissonance, it so leaves a bitter after taste…

    Revelation 10:9: So I went to the angel and asked him to give me the little scroll. He said to me, “Take it and eat it. It will turn your stomach sour, but ‘in your mouth it will be as sweet as honey

  • jekylldoc

    I’m pretty sure they are equivalent to the Donald. He is a narcissist, turning everything into conflict in his mind and relentlessly seeking the “win” of claiming victory in a conflict. Since I have taught about trade every year for 30 years, I feel a certain sense of betrayal that voters accept this trashing of one of humanity’s greatest achievements. Not that it is such a surprise, really, but at this moment in our history it is more critical than ever to recognize the fruits of cooperation and resist the urge to see conflict where there is none. Canada! Our great enemy to the North! Dear Leader gets his imagination from South Park, evidently.

  • I fell on this today from TA-NEHISI COATES

    /It is often easier to choose the path of self-destruction when you don’t consider who you are taking along for the ride, to die drunk in the street if you experience the deprivation as your own, and not the deprivation of family, friends, and community./
    This personal micro/is macro level/ is MAGA, MHO… [America’s authorization of]…the racist [ misogynist, xenophobic, ableist, ageist Etc.] rhetoric of the conservative movement…/ the young people among the despised classes of America who will pay a price for this
    —the children parted from their parents at the border,
    —the women warring to control the reproductive organs of their own bodies,
    —the transgender soldier fighting for his job,
    —the students who dare not return home for fear of a “travel ban,”
    which [ Trump’s supporters are free to never experience consequences or the consequences are temporarily suspended. They,] …will likely pay also for [this] thin definition of freedom, as opposed to one that experiences history, traditions, and struggle not as a burden, but as an anchor in a chaotic world./

  • jekylldoc

    Saw that last quote set on your blog. Worth quoting.

    Coates has accepted the reality of power in America and its abuse. By bypassing the need to reveal or confront it on every piece of writing, he ends up doing far more good by penetrating to the human heart of things.

    Fred Clark has a great one out about forgiveness. Picks up on a lot of the evangelical “faux”giveness of abusive males in power, without ever mentioning it.

  • Suraj Majumdar

    Good, then all the aborted babies have already gone to your supposed heaven. We should abort as many as possible.

  • Robert Alan Russell

    It seems to me that one important point the article fails to make is that if Christianity is functioning properly it undermines and subverts nationalism. Jesus informed Pilate that his kingdom is not of the this world, James writes to Church as 12 tribes dispersed among the nations, Peter’s readers are resident aliens whose identify transcends cultural, national and imperial boundaries, Paul writes of a gospel the breaks down walls. Among the new humanity “there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all and in all.” If all followers of Jesus are part of the only family that ultimately matters then I have a closer identity with a Christian living in China, Mexico or Nigeria than any unbelieving neighbour who happens to share my culture, national identity or economic interests. In the end the only patriotism that counts is support for global kingdom of Christ.

  • Ron Swaren

    Sorry. Evangelical missions have left everyone in the dirt. They have turned so much over to what are called “the nationals” and so much of that is done via latest technology, maybe more than we do here in the states. Yes there is a ways to go, but lumping evangelicals who support Trump as backwards or racists or fascists is very ill-informed. And then you seque into a screed on “white supremacism.” Oh please. Who brought about the industrial revolution, womens rights, the information revolution? Look back at our history and you will see the system of law based in reason comes in large part from the Northmen. Jury trial came from the Danelaw and William the Norman. A lot better than trial by ordeal!

  • Giordano_Bruno

    America IS a superior nation because it CHOOSES to be a superior nation. It is founded on the notion of inalienable rights bestowed by the Creator and constitutional government. In America one can choose to be Christian with all its associated virtues, but it is not mandatory. To its own peril, America has embraced a secular welfare state to cushion the trials of less fortunate CITIZENS, while attempting to preserve its essential nature. This attention to secular virtue is not possible with globalist virtues where all have access to America’s riches, without any contribution or concern regarding either America’s nature or wealth. In short, Jen, you couldn’t be more wrong.

  • Kanawah

    Trumps nationalism is incompatible with everything except the Third Rich.


    Nationalism simply means pride of Country and the good traditions associated with it. All other definitions are distortions, whether intentional or unintentional.

    This article poses the question: “How can we use something good, like nationalism, as another reason to Hate Trump?” The answer is of course to turn the definition of nationalism on it’s head and pile on as many hateful inferences as possible. There are many who do not, or wish not, to see these devious techniques being used. I can only say for those who use and believe such evil methodologies, that I hope for your sake that it is out of ignorance rather than evil intent. In other words, “How dark has your soul really become?” Everyone should flee the presence of such people of these. Unless you desire your own destruction, as well.

  • Mr. James Parson

    Surely the have fire fighters /s

  • Disabled Veteran

    No Christian’s aren’t Catholics we don’t worship idols

  • Disabled Veteran

    That’s a false teaching not supported by the Bible and there’s no such thing as interfaith

  • Tom Borromeo

    typical anti-Catholic drivel, …
    FACT: The Catholic (from the Greek “kata & holos” meaning ‘universal’) Church are the original Christians because it has been in existence since
    Jesus Christ Himself.
    St. Peter is our 1st Pope and and a continuous lineage of 2 MILLENIA to Pope Francis our current Pope.

    Regarding idol worship:
    Why did YHWH Himself command that these ‘idols’ be made (carved) ?
    The Ark of the Covenant contained 2 Cherubim (Angels) ‘carved’ out of Gold.
    The Bronze Serpent was made so that if they saw (“worshipped”) it, those bitten by poisonous snakes would not die.
    Solomon’s Temple walls were carved cedar wood with elaborate designs depicting cherubim, palm trees & open flowers.
    W/in and the Holy of Holies was adorned w/2 Cherubim.

    Live Jesus in our Hearts, FOREVER.

  • Carmen Park

    When you quote Fox News you automatically undermine your argument. They have been shown to be false literally HUNDREDS of times and only escape being sued because they claim to be “entertainment”

  • J.D.

    At what point, Bob, does the woman become NOT a person? Because in this country we don’t force people to provide their organs to anyone (not even if the party in need is related, if the would-be “donor” is the only match, or if the party in need will die without it) without their express and ongoing consent…EVER. Because doing so is a violation of their constitutional rights. The uterus is the woman’s organ. So again, I ask…at what point do you believe the woman becomes a non-person? When does she become a slave in violation of her 13th Amendment rights?

  • When she is born with a vagina she inures certain rights and privileges and obligations.
    Your analogy is pathetic. You can live without certain organs. A baby cannot live when its head is cut off and dragged through the birth canal to be sold by Planned Parenthood for money to support their abortion factories. Your second analogy, a slave is disrespectful to all the slaves that lived their lives in servitude. There is no constitutional right to an abortion; it was a legal decision by seven men. May they burn in hell forever.

  • J.D.

    Bull pucky, Bob. My vagina has nothing to do with it, nor my ability or not to live with or without any part. My body and every single organ (uterus included), tissue, and bodily fluid within it are 100% MINE all the time and I’m not obliged to share any or all of them with anyone against my will. Not for a parent, not for a sibling or other kin, not for a spouse, not for a child, not for a stranger, and not for a fetus. Any infringement of that violates not only my 13th Amendment rights against involuntary servitude, but also my 14th Amendment rights when it’s done only based on sex (when do YOU get forced to ante up your body or parts on demand, sir? We’re waiting with bated breath to hear.)

    Enforced gestation has ALWAYS been a major component of slavery. Enforced gestation IS SLAVERY. If anyone ought to be burning in Hell, it should be slavers of all kinds. Do you want that to include you, sir?

  • I am not picking on just you but every supporter of abortion. It is abhorrent and uncivilized. It is like slavery; still with us but detestable. You take the risk of pregnancy as a woman when you practice risky sex but you don’t want the responsibility that comes with that self-appointed freedom; in fact you argue that you have no responsibility and can squash that little life with no consequences. I am glad I don’t know you because I would not like you.

  • J.D.

    Right back at ya, sir. I don’t like sexists and misogynists and would-be slavers who want to deny women their constitutional rights and render them fewer rights to their own bodies than all men AND corpses. In fact, I find such persons quite detestable. Again, I’m still waiting to hear when your body parts are subject to being anted up on demand and against your will and also when exactly it was you thought women forfeited their personhood.

    BTW, just a little reminder…you don’t know squat about my sex life, because I’ve never said anything about it, but only held forth about my black and white, legal, constitutional rights. You just assumed a lot of baseless balderdash without a scintilla of evidence…because you’re a sexist and a bigot and a misogynist. Quite the hat trick there.

  • As I said, I am glad I do not know you because I would not like you. As with most of the Progressives on this site you have defective debating skills and resort to name calling without any justification.

  • Dick Modderkolk

    Dude, you got owned! And now you’re fleeing, really? Sorry man, but you’re the one with defective debating skills.

  • In what way dude?

  • J.D.

    I’m sure a brilliant mind like yours is fully capable of figuring out just how broken hearted I am at the loss of your good opinion. But keep your deity, your nosy-parkerism, and your control freak tendencies off me, my organs, and my constitutional rights. I won’t tell you what you must do with your body as long as you do me the same courtesy. Cross me on it, and I’ll come for every last bit of you (and every other forced-birther) and have you on a gurney being carved up like a Thanksgiving turkey for spare parts for the needy, no consent necessary. After all, fair is fair.

  • KSJ

    Baloney! God, family, neighborhood, country not globalism! If one does not love one’s country then the legitimate options are to do everything LEGALLY possible to fix what is wrong with the country or legally apply for citizenship in another country. Stop this insanity over definition of words. Nationalism doesn’t mean Racist, or that my country is the best in the world, but it does mean it is MY country and I love it and will do everything I can to help it become the best!

  • Dennis

    You say that Fox News has been shown to be false “literaly HUNDREDS of times.” Name one.

  • Carmen Park
  • Carmen Park
  • Carmen Park
  • Dennis

    An example of how politifact screws up:

  • /he ends up doing far more good by penetrating to the human heart of things./
    The bigger picture is universal MHO… Have you ever heard of Gabor mate? He’s doing a lot with ADHD and addiction. He’s an MD who has worked extensively with Canadian tribal native addicts and General palliative care in Canadian hospitals / 30 years or more. Here’s a sample of his spiel… He has a pretty thick Eastern European accent so I want you to be aware of that…

    Things are going pretty well emotionally and physically for me lately. I am on an upward learning curve. I am attending meetings and reading The Big Book on a regular basis… actively pursuing study and doing meditation and prayer. All this I am grateful for because of feeling and coping with a chance to make things right in my life with the help of higher power and a spiritual community. Hope you have a joyous and peaceful holiday season of your choice or whatever…

  • jekylldoc

    Thanks for the warm wishes. I’m really glad to hear you are on a good path. Find some more cool material for the rest of us.

    Been waiting two days to listen to the video – my internet was slow or absent the whole time. I really liked Gabor Mate’s insights. So much comes down to a supported and securely attached childhood. Easy to take for granted, unless you didn’t have it. But I am thankful you are gradually overcoming the damaged wiring. We can get better. I have also been feeling more confident and relaxed, and almost free of addiction this year. Praying it will keep getting better next year, and thankful that my childhood trauma was minimal.

    I think he is a little eager to oversimplify, though. When discussing George Harrison he says, “These are the people who get cancer.” I expect there is some causal influence, but it would be cruel (and inaccurate) to tell everyone who gets cancer, “Well, you just weren’t assertive enough!” or worse, “Well, you had childhood trauma, so this is your fate.”

  • Yes it’s more than just blame the victim isn’t it? One must sift the experiences of trauma to develop empathy MHO. One needn’t have the trauma oneself only the ability to imagine and a living conscience. Lately I’ve had the thought if I hadn’t had some of the trauma I might have turned into a sociopath or worse.

    Proverbs 20:21
    Even children are known by the way they act, whether their conduct is pure, and whether it is right.

    Despair is the absolute extreme of self-love. It is reached when a person deliberately turns his back on all help from anyone else in order to taste the rotten luxury of knowing himself to be lost.
    ~Thomas Merton

  • jekylldoc

    It’s not an imagination exercise that a person takes on gladly. It sometimes seems to be worth it.

  • /It’s not an imagination exercise that a person takes on gladly/
    you’re right… A fruit of the Spirit is “long-suffering’… I wonder why? Is it b/c we’re all part of one another? I believe this in theory so far… my dreams/imagination gives me hope to cope.

  • jekylldoc

    Translation: “Alright, you named a hundred. But your source isn’t perfect, so Fox gets a free pass for all the deliberate distortions.” Not too persuasive.

  • Dennis

    No, correct translation: This example points out the flawed methodology of Politifact that calls into question their accuracy in other cases relating to Fox.

  • Everyone should be a nationalist! The author is one, too. We just disagree over what is best for our nation. Following godly principles and sound economics are always best but most on the left and right don’t know either. Free trade with other nations is best for the US, regardless of what the others do. Immigration is good as long as it is orderly and not an invasion. Protecting the property of citizens from confiscation by the state through high taxes is best for the nation.

  • I was just thinking that I hadn’t heard that much about being in touch with a higher power from Gabor mate… Just now reviewed his 3 minute 45 second spiel / YouTube on psychology of spiritual thinking …
    I would value your thoughts on this and anything else you care to…

  • jekylldoc

    Incredible. Don’t care much for your credibility, do you?

  • Rather don’t care much for fear mongering and selective victimization of groups to promote divisive views aimed at weakening our great country; aka Progressive Liberalism.

  • What a silly uninformed comment from someone claiming to know Fake News from fact. And not even one instance to back up your comment. Are you “entertainment” or are you serious?

  • jekylldoc

    So you are just in denial about the fact that the victimization is by scared white bigots and those who think black people are getting away with something and feel they must police it, not to mention businesses who just don’t want the complications of hiring someone different from themselves. Our country is so much stronger than under Jim Crow, it’s incredible to me that there are people like you who can’t see that more progress means more strength, not less.

  • Correct. The victimization is by the Left to keep Black people aligned to vote Democrat.
    What progress is the South Side of Chicago? It is a death zone and there is no hope for it under Democrat control.

  • jekylldoc

    I am in no position to comment on the leadership of South Chicago, or Baltimore, or Detroit, or any other place. But I defy you to show that a change to Republican leadership has benefited black people anywhere in the nation.

    This canard about “the Left” narrating “victimization” to people of color to keep them aligned for voting is all Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly and nothing to do with reality. People of color don’t have to have it explained to them that cops mistreat them and many whites mistrust them. The question, just as with the jobs lost to technology in manufacturing, is what to do about it. Currently one party has its head in the sand because the donors prefer it that way. Reality refuses to play along with the charade.

  • I do not understand why you would believe what you posted. Republicans are not anti-black; especially this President:

    Black unemployment falls to second-lowest on record
    Published: Sept 7, 2018 10:11 a.m. ET by By STEVE GOLDSTEIN D.C. BUREAU CHIEF

    “The black unemployment rate fell in August to the second-lowest on record as the labor market continues to show signs of tightening.

    In August, the black unemployment rate fell to 6.3%, continuing the rapid descent from the 16.8% peak shortly after the recession, and the lowest ever after the 5.9% rate in May.

    The continued economic expansion, now showing up in rising wages, has helped all racial groups, data show. Donald Trump has frequently pointed out the black unemployment rate reached a record low during his presidency.”

    And Black voting is shifting away from Democrats as Blacks across the country see what is happening:
    Mostly black neighborhoods voted more Republican in 2016 than in 2012 By Philip Bump Washington Post

    …”First: The most heavily white neighborhoods voted much more heavily Republican in 2016 than in 2012 (the dark red line shoots up past the light-red one). Second, the most heavily black neighborhoods voted less heavily Democratic last year than four years ago….Are shifts in black voting responsible for Clinton’s loss? They probably played a role. Victory, as they say, has a thousand fathers. In this case, defeat does, too.”

  • jekylldoc

    If you are suggesting that the change of leadership is responsible for low unemployment, that is motivated reasoning (i.e., wishful thinking). There is no reason to think the economy would have done any worse if Clinton had won. It has continued its former trend. On the contrary, the Republican foot-dragging against stimulus prolonged the second-worst recession in 100 years, inflicting grave pain on working people, including blacks.

    Philip Bump should check on 2018. His comparison of 2016 to 2012 misses the fact that America’s first black president was on the ballot in 2012. Black people know which party is busy suppressing their votes. You may be fooling yourself, but you aren’t fooling them.

  • Bob, sometimes you make sense. This is not one of those times.

  • Goldarn

    I wonder how many abortions would’ve happened without Roe vs. Wade.

  • Goldarn

    Does he listen to himself? “When she is born with a vagina she inures … obligations.” Is one of the obligations that, should she get pregnant by whatever means, she is now a slave to the fetus until birth? That must count for rape and incest and all that, because there can be no exceptions if a fetus does, in fact, have more rights than the woman does.

  • No one said a woman has to raise the child just give birth to it. There are many compassionate people in the world who will do that. Having the awesome power of giving birth is a gift not to be thrown in the face of the One who bestowed it. Slave is a peculiar choice of words. In this country at this time a fetus seems to have no rights; even less than a slave.

  • Tom Borromeo

    Hmmm, an interesting question, and the short answer:
    Definitely it cannot be more, for obvious reasons, … surely less, because w/o their legality, & funding, they’d be difficult if not ‘next to impossible’ to procure.
    [Now, if implemented today,]
    Back alley abortions w/the numerous abortionists operating clandestinely, might increase initially, maybe even maternal deaths,
    [FYI, the (legal) abortion procedure is not w/o it’s maternal deaths also.]
    but over-all, it will stabilise to an ever decreasing proportion, and that could be only a good thing.

  • J.D.

    Gift, my eye. If I don’t want it, it’s not a gift…it’s a burden. It’s also, like every other unwanted ‘gift’, capable of being refused and returned to the sender.

    No one said a woman has to raise the child just give birth to it.

    Slavery, however temporary, is still slavery. And still unconstitutional.

    fetus seems to have no rights

    A fetus has exactly the same rights to someone else’s body as everyone else ever born…NONE. And just like everyone else in need of an organ, if nobody else opts to share one with them, then it must live or die based on its own organs.

  • Well that’s it. You not invited to the party.

  • J.D.

    Slavery is only a party to the slaveholders and the overseers…never the enslaved.

    BTW, newsflash…women aren’t brood stock or baby factories and they aren’t required to undergo gestation and childbirth just because somebody else selfishly thinks they’re entitled to an infant.

  • Oh how we protest not being able to kill children; but over what?

  • J.D.

    No, we protest the incredibly misogynistic violation of our 13th and 14th Amendment rights and the utter disregard being expressed for our bodily autonomy. I’d be exactly as irate if I was being told to ante up blood, bone, marrow, or organs other than my uterus against my will too. And I say that as a registered organ donor. CONSENT MATTERS.

  • I don’t believe your 13th or 14th Amendment rights have been violated yet?. I certainly disagree with your self-absorbed take on child birth but I also don’t see what you are concerned about. Abortion is the law and it will not change.

  • J.D.

    I have no intention of waiting for ‘yet’ to happen and will vigorously fight any attempt to make it so. BTW, being self-protective isn’t remotely the same thing as self-absorbed. If I don’t look out for my wellbeing, who will? I certainly wouldn’t trust a forced-birther to do so, as they’ve already indicated MY welfare is the farthest thing from their concern.

  • Ocelot Aardvark

    Jen isn’t missing anything. You are.

    Our nation may have been founded on the notion of “inalienable rights bestowed by the Creator” … as well as the “all men are created equal” clause in the Declaration of Independence.

    In reality though, America, especially ‘white-nationalists’ of eras past, have:

    • exterminated the indigenous people
    • kidnapped others from Africa to be our slaves (they were too lazy to do their own work)
    • killed and outrageously discriminated against Chinese and other Asian people
    • ostracized Jewish refugees (especially those escaping Hitler’s regime)
    • and to this day, plenty of Jim Crow laws are still in existence.

    So please, save all your bullcràp about “without contribution” and the old, worn-out “secular welfare state” babbling-dogma … it’s just more excuses for people like you to hang on to your very anti-Christian values of white-supremacy, intolerance, greed, theft, and utter lack of loving your neighbor.

  • Ocelot Aardvark

    Hear! Hear! Well said. A thousand thumbs up.

  • Ocelot Aardvark

    I wouldn’t be bragging about “bringing about the Industrial Revolution” as a sign of any kind of superiority … since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, the safety and quality our air, water and food has been compromised to the point of being poisonous, polluted and downright unhealthy.

    Most products, manufactured with methods created by the Industrial Revolution, have become shoddy and cheap.

    Furthermore, the biggest consequences of the Industrial Revolution are mass unemployment, great depressions and recessions.

    As far as the “Northmen” are concerned, they were certainly the best at oppression, conquest, rape and murder.

    Not much has changed.

  • Ocelot Aardvark

    Amen! again, a Thousand Thumbs Up.

  • Ron Swaren

    I suppose you are going to start whining about the Information Revolution next. No, most Northmen weren’t doing anymore of that stuff than anyone else in that era. The vikings were uppercrust Northmen who could afford to invest in ships to go plundering—but the rest of humsnkind were plundering when they could, too. Amd as far as environmental consequences of the industrial revolution, FYI, people in the industrialized countries live up to twice as long now; giving them more time to find solutions to the fallout.

  • Ron Swaren

    Christian missions have been in the process of turning over their work to “nationals” who are more culturally knowledgeable and a h–kuva lot cheaper besides. Is this “nationalism” wrong?

  • Ron Swaren

    -Industrial Revolution—making people live twice as long as before.
    -The vikings were the uppercrust Northmen who raided—most of the rest stayed home. And in those days most of that stuff was pretty common.
    -Gonna complain about the Information Revolution next?
    You’re funny.

  • Widuran

    Our allegiances are to Christ and his Church but at the same time the Trump Administration is supporting Christian values and persecuted Christians and is defending his people.

    God Bless the Trump Administration. I wish we had a Trump as our PM in the UK.

  • ounbbl

    Rev. loves his religion. Is he a Christian? I doubt. Whose religion is Christianity?

  • Snoring

    The Christians allegiance is to God not a nation.

    However the Trump Administration is doing many things right in Gods sight. I thank God for Trump.

  • Snoring

    I agree nationalist does not mean racist. In the UK it is not racist although the lamestream media sometimes says it is racist.

  • Snoring

    Progressive Liberalism is destroying the world sadly

  • etg

    God created nations and established borders for nations to defend themselves and make laws within them. There is nothing wrong with nationalism. Nationalism is NOT racism. Two different things. I would argue with the author that anyone who is a true believer in Christ should NEVER vote for a candidate that ‘protects’ abortion in this nation.

  • etg

    “Steve Bannon and other white supremacists,” <– Quoted from the article. Bannon is not a white supremacist. The 'rev' Jen Butler is slandering someone and bearing false witness. That discredits the whole article.

  • Widuran

    Why is 100% of Trumps policies incompatible with Christianity?

  • Widuran

    yes this is a strange notion

  • Christians are totally gonna take an Atheist columnist advice.

  • Snoring

    Yes nationalism is not always racist but it can be