If God Only Made Male & Female, What About Intersex?

If God Only Made Male & Female, What About Intersex? August 21, 2015

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I think I’ve heard the phrase “in the beginning God made them male and female” a hundred times in response to the sex/gender discussions of our time. The phrase works like a trump card to win a theological discussion on anything from LGBTQ issues to how Target should organize their toys. However, each time I hear someone say “God made male and female” as if that’s all he made, the question that comes to my mind each time is: “What about those whose bodies are intersex?”

You might not be familiar with it, but there are more than two sexes– and no, not everyone is born clearly male or clearly female.

This is what makes me cringe with some of the ways the above statement is used (or perhaps misused) in our culture wars– because if God made everything/everyone (and I believe he did), he made more than just male and female.

I’ve been wanting to blog about this topic, but I’m not an expert on it. However, one of my good theologian friends– Dr. Megan DeFranza– actually is an expert on this issue. In fact, sheScreenshot 2015-08-21 09.08.41 just had a book come out on this topic (Sex Difference in Christian Theology: Male, Female, and Intersex in the Image of God), so I thought she’d be a great person to ask a few questions about intersex. Megan holds a PhD from Marquette University, is a two-time graduate of Gordon-Conwell with degrees in theology and biblical languages, and has taught theology at both Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and Gordon College (she also has a blog, you can find here). I’m appreciative to have her here on the blog for the following interview:

BLC: I frequently hear people quote Jesus as saying “from the beginning God made male and female” in gender discussions, but are the distinctions of male and female really the only two sexes God makes?

Dr. DeFranza: The creation accounts in Genesis chapters 1 and 2 and the narrative of the fall into sin in chapter 3 offer the foundational theological narrative for Jews and Christians. It is the beginning of the Great Book, the great story of God’s redemption, so it rightly deserves our attention. The challenge is how to interpret these narratives. You know the questions: Literal 6 days or ages? Special creation or evolutionary creation?

To these we need to add the following question: Are the creation accounts comprehensive inventories of all of God’s good creations or do these narratives describe the beginning in broad themes?

If we look closely, I think we find broad themes—male and female, creatures of the land, creatures of the sky, creatures of the sea; night and day, but not dusk; sun, moon, and stars, but no comets. There are many creations which are simply not named in the creation accounts. Amphibians—hybrid animals that are “creatures of the sea” and “creatures of the land”—are noticeably absent and yet I have never heard a scientist who is a Christian explain their existence as one of the “results of the fall into sin.”

But I have heard this explanation more than I care to count to make sense of the presence of human beings who have mixed sex characteristics. Some people insist that God created humans to be male or female and anyone whose body falls somewhere in between the categories of “Adam” or “Eve” must be proof of the “fall.”

The majority of people do seem to be clearly male or female—one more reason I think the author of Genesis is speak in general categories—but for every 2,500-4,500 live births a child is born whose body is intersex.

Intersex refers to a variety of physical differences where people have male and female characteristics—XXY chromosomes or internal reproductive organs of one sex with external sex characteristics of the other, for example. They sometimes result in ambiguous genitals so that doctors are not sure whether to assign the sex of male or female on the birth certificate but other times differences show up later in life—in early childhood or at puberty. Physicians often use the term Disorders of Sex Development (DSDs) but many within the intersex community prefer “Differences” of Sex Development—a more neutral term. [When I use DSD, I mean “Differences” of Sex Development.]

Genesis 1-3 is a theological account of beginnings that was never intended to give us the whole story. Thankfully, we find help in other parts of the Bible to put together with this good beginning for a more complete picture of what it means to be human in right relationship with God.

BLC: I’ve brought up the issue of intersex before and folks have told me, “Even in these rare cases, it is still possible to determine if the person is male or female.” In your professional opinion, is this true? What have the results looked like for parents/doctors who attempted to determine the actual gender of a child when they were young?

Dr. Defranza: This depends on what you mean by “determine” and who gets to determine.

It is true that many intersex persons identify as male or female (of course, in our culture there haven’t been other real options). Many have a sense of gender identity that is male or female even if their body doesn’t neatly align with it. Some choose to bring their bodies into line with their gender identity through medical intervention. Others simply dress and identify as one gender or the other. And yet there are others who, when they discover the term intersex, are relieved to find a category that makes sense not only of their body which is “in between” but of their gender identity that also feels “in between.”

The problem is when doctors and parents try to decide for the child—based on their best guess given the variety of physical differences the child has (hormone levels, genital size and shape, etc.)—because these are guesses and too often people guess wrong.

When doctors perform plastic surgery on an infant or child to make their genitals appear less ambiguous they are making a guess and performing a medically unnecessary surgery—very few intersex conditions are medical emergencies. Unfortunately, if the child does not develop a gender identity to match the guess of their doctors, there is much less tissue to work with should the individual want to alter their body to bring it into line with their sense of gender and scar tissue in sensitive places causes many more problems for individuals.

Pediatricians who specialize in children with DSDs now agree with intersex advocates who recommend delaying surgeries (preferably until after puberty) when the child is old enough to have a sense of their own gender and can give informed consent to medical treatment should they desire it.

 BLC: As a theologian your area of research has specifically been in the realm of theology relating to intersex. If you could condense your years of work in this area, how would you express a theology of intersex? Does the Bible even have anything to say about this?

Dr. Defranza: Let me answer your second question first.

 I was surprised and delighted to find that the Bible does speak about intersex and ancient Jews and Christians were very familiar with Differences of Sex Development.

Jesus mentions intersex persons in Matthew 19:12 when he speaks of “naturally born eunuchs” which the Jews called saris chamah or “eunuch of the sun”—those who were known to be eunuchs from the day the sun shone upon them. Jews made provisions for naturally born eunuchs in their communities—pulling from laws for men and laws for women to make sure all of their bases were covered. Contemporary Jewish scholars do the same today.

 Isaiah prophesies blessings for eunuchs who are faithful to YHWH in Is. 56:1-8, “an everlasting name” … “better than sons or daughters”—in other words blessings better than being “healed” or restored to manhood. This passage begins to be fulfilled in Acts 8 when the first foreigner is baptized—an Ethiopian and a eunuch.

Augustine speaks of hermaphrodites and androgynes rather casually saying,

they are certainly very rare, and yet it is difficult to find periods when there are no examples of human beings possessing the characteristics of both sexes, in such a way that it is a matter of doubt how they should be classified. However, the prevalent usage has called them masculine, assigning them to the better sex” (City of God, 16.8).

Don’t you just love Augustine?!?

There is not space here to detail a “theology of intersex” but what I see from Jesus is that he doesn’t speak of intersex as a result of the fall into sin. I see Jews and Christians making space for intersex members of their communities. I hear Isaiah promising eunuchs a place in God’s temple—which I read as a promise of their place in the new Heaven and New Earth. If I read from Genesis to Revelation, I see God folding in more and more outsiders so that God’s house can finally be a “house of prayer for all people.” (It’s that same passage from Isaiah 56:1-7.)

BLC: The issue of gender is somewhat a hot-topic in Christian discussions today. What do you think we can learn from your work in the area of intersex that would be beneficial to the larger discussion on theology and gender?

 Dr. Defranza: There is so much to learn! First, Christians need to not fear scientific studies of gender. Sure, we should read everything carefully for bias (that includes writings from fellow Christians) but there is good, careful research being done to help us separate fact from fiction, science from stereotype, cultural preferences from universal patterns.

One of the most helpful books I read along the way was Brain Gender—an amazingly readable book written by the Director of the Neuroendocrinology Research Lab in London. Dr. Hines summarizes research on gender differences saying,

“few, if any, individuals correspond to the modal [statistically most common] male pattern or the modal female pattern. Variation within each sex is great, with males and females near the top and bottom of the distributions for every characteristic. … In fact, although most of us appear to be either clearly male or clearly female, we are each complex mosaics of male and female characteristics” (M. Hines, Brain Gender, 18-19).

Rather than see this as a problem to be solved—trying to fit all this diversity back into some original (and inaccessible) pattern of Adam or Eve—could this have been God’s plan all along: to begin the story with two who are called to “be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth” with different kinds of people who are all called to love one another and worship God in their similarities and differences?

I don’t see Jesus calling us to become manly or womanly. Jesus calls all of us to be made new, to put on Christ, to grow in love, holiness, and the fruit of the Spirit. These virtues are for all people—male, female, and intersex alike. They challenge masculine stereotypes. They challenge feminine stereotypes. They call all of us to die to our own preferences so that God’s life can grow within us. That is good news.

If you’re among those who casually throws out the phrase “God made them male and female” as if that’s all God made, and as if all of our gender discussions can fit neatly inside certainScreenshot 2015-08-21 11.28.45 boxes, I’d invite you to consider that gender is an issue with more complexity than we often realize or admit.

If you’d like to go deeper on this issue, I highly recommend picking up Dr. DeFranza’s book, here, or check out her blog, here.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Jeremy Olson

    The biggest flaw I see with both sides of the argument is that on the fundamentalist side they assume people are STILL being made by God. Which is not the case…He gave us the job of making new humans. If God was still making people there would be no children with defects of any kind.
    On the other side of the spectrum, because we live in a fallen world and creation has been corrupted there are things that were not part of God’s original plan. But that’s what grace is for.

  • Fascinating important article!

  • Thanks for raising this topic Ben. It gives me a lot to think about. How do you think the existence of intersex persons should inform the way Christians think about transgender persons and sex-change surgeries? I can understand surgery in cases where it is not clear biologically whether a person is male or female. But what about a case where somebody’s body clearly indicates the person is a male, and yet that person wants to undergo surgery to become biologically female because the person identifies psychologically as a female? Would you call a person intersex when their biological sex and psychological gender do not match up? Do you think the existence of intersex persons should compel Christians to be supportive of sex-change operations in those cases?

    This is definitely a complex topic…thanks for forcing me to think through it more.

  • Désiré Rusovsky

    What about the healing of genetic or congenital disorders?

  • Tracy Milstead

    THANK YOU for addressing this subject, Ben! People really need to be more informed about this, and you did a great job of getting the information out there through an objective Biblical worldview!

  • Tracy Milstead

    We call differences such as these “defects,” but are they really defects? Could it be that it just is what it is? Another normal we don’t want to consider normal because it’s not what society deems “normal?”

  • Herm

    Matthew 7:12

  • This is an informative, important article. Thank you for publishing it!
    (Also: the more I read of Augustine, the more I strrrrrroooonnnnglllllyyyy dislike him. Oh well).

  • otrotierra

    Thank you Benjamin and Dr. DeFranza. Religious fundamentalists really want scripture to condemn people they hate, and this lustful desire limits their ability to critically interpret scripture in historical context. And when The Greatest Commandment is erased from one’s theology and worldview, all sorts of hate-filled condemnation becomes possible. That’s partially why Ken Ham and David Barton and Franklin Graham are so popular among fundamentalists today. They are all equally offended by interpretations and understandings of scripture in historical context.

  • liberalinlove

    And if so why doesn’t God? Perhaps we as a society need healing.

  • I wouldn’t call a person whose biological sex and psychological gender identity don’t match up– that’s transgender, which is different– yet I think Dr. Defranza’s work certainly has applications outside of just intersex.

  • jenisedai

    Technically speaking, intersex only refers to a biological variation from strictly male or female genitals. Transsexual/transgender people are more of a psychological issue, although there could be a biological component which scientists have not discovered yet. I find it fascinating because so much of how we treat both intersexual and transsexual/transgender people stems not so much from biology but from society. We have determined what is “male” and what is “female”- we have determined as a society that there are only “male” and “female” and that anyone who falls outside those two boxes must be somehow “wrong”. It seems that if we were willing to open ourselves up to God’s wondrous variety and not limit ourselves to narrow definitions we would have a lot fewer of these issues pop up. I think we are headed in that direction now, but we have a lot further to go. Just because our computers are binary doesn’t mean we have to be.

  • John Powell

    The theology here is less than paper thin. She is reading her conclusions into scripture because it is silent on the issue and where she derives it from does not compute. Dr. DeFranza is making an argument from silence, nothing more. You can believe it if you want, but to build upon it is quite fragile. The better theology recognizes God’s specific, purposeful, thought out, designed, intentional, perfect creation for his reasons and mission which do not allow for deviations. It is to this end which God is restoring all things, so to make allowance for a something other than his intentions is not biblically tenable. The effects of the fall are exhaustive and tragic, but to call them intentional and ascribe God’s purposes in it is incorrect exegesis. I’m disappointed that you are seemingly put-off by the creation argument from gender binary advocates, but this is the proper place to start. All else is worked out from here because it was from here that all else fell into corruption. If God’s design was one way, then we cannot embrace the consequences of the fall. This reasoning makes no judgment towards individuals in these circumstances and the hope in Jesus Christ remains as it does for everyone.

  • Great post @benjaminlcorey:disqus. My favorite part is this quote: “In fact, although most of us appear to be either clearly male or clearly female, we are each complex mosaics of male and female characteristics” (M. Hines, Brain Gender, 18-19).”

  • Benjamin Wortham

    I have been disappointed that nobody ever seems to bring this up in theological conversations. Thank you for remedying that deficit. It’s high time we honestly wrestle with the biological underpinnings of gender and see the ancient culturally constructed concept of binary gender for what it is. We live in a large world with male and female hemispheres. Some live at the poles and some near the equator and the rest of us, somewhere in between.

  • Are Gentiles part of God’s perfect plan? If so, why are they absent from the creation account?

  • Herm

    Thank you Ben and Megan, you are truly merciful siblings in the Spirit.

    I have given many hints, throughout my tenure here as a lowest of low but privileged commenter, that this is a subject of great importance to my understanding relative to our relationship with God. The preceding article to this one came close, I responded in kind, and this article nails it, thank you, again and again.

    I begin at the end of sin in my life so that those who can read no further have a chance to apply what has worked for me to break free. Whatever you feel is a sin you cannot keep from repeating, please, in all hopeless humility invite the Holy Spirit into counsel as you are sinning. Do not do as so many of our Christian leaders have been caught at by closing their hearts and minds to God when they know they sin and then open once again to God’s advice, through the Spirit of God, when they are sure they are not. I did so for more than 30 years as a leader in the church sincerely believing I was doing good and had miraculous signs to support me. I was 50 years old, left with nothing, when hopelessly prostrate before my Lord I petitioned out of desperation for the Spirit to be with me to counsel without ceasing whether I was sinning or not. I have grown exponentially since then at peace with great joy to be on a journey of relationship with reality as I am ready without any sign of ever ceasing. I stumble along the way because the Spirit of God is a guide who I follow from behind. I am free to exercise my responsibility of choice and am constantly growing by not repeating the same mistake. I no longer sin against God because God is ALWAYS with me, and yes we can argue and discuss in love until I see further more clearly. I no longer sin, intentionally, against my siblings of mankind and/or my siblings of God, and yes we can argue and discuss in love until we see further more clearly. Can a child boldly defy to destructively err in front of her/his parents when acknowledging their presence, all knowing authority and love?

    Now some facts as best we know them and I can and need to convey them:

    The Pentateuch, we know today, from research was most likely a compilation of documents from several authors not too much different than the New Testament we know from only authors 2,000 years ago. Moses may or may not have compiled them within his 120 years of life beginning in 1393 B.C.E.. The Jewish calendar begins 3,760 or 3,761 years prior to Jesus’ birth which is considered one year prior to the creation. It has been over 2,015 years since the birth of the Christ. The New Testament covers less than 100 years beginning at the birth of the Messiah.

    Fragments of the Pentateuch have been discovered carbon dated back to 3500 B.C.E. written in cuneiform.

    Galileo Galilei was tried by the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition (The Roman Catholic Church of Christianity) in 1615 C.E., found “vehemently suspect of heresy”, forced to recant, and spent the remaining 27 of his life under house arrest for sharing the truth of our reality.

    Did our graced ability to learn directly from the Spirit of God stop to go completely silent at the end of Revelations? Does God love to communicate equally reciprocal with the most literate adult scholar and the most illiterate infant child fully to the most of their ability to ask, seek and knock?

    Within my 71 years the first access to information I could research myself was in third grade (seven years old) when I could first read and only then from an extremely limited school library and the Encyclopedia Britannica my parents bought to invest in our world literacy. I grew from then with only a bicycle and an in home analog phone without a dial, to share with the world of my species. Today I’m graced with the freedom of control over a digital phone (voice and data) that I carry on me all the way from my house in the NW, to the car, to the non-stop airplane, to the Far East. I have been gifted the responsibility of continuous communication with mankind not even conceptually possible for well over half my life.

    How much research through what available resources did the first chronicler of history (that we know of) have to record their observations so important them? How does that compare with what has been increased in my lifetime from 1944 C.E.?

    I am highly educated and experienced by this world’s standards predominately from an area of our world allowed more of a multi-cultural freedom to learn than was available, without exaggeration, to over 95% of the world. I have credentials to share with credible authority in most of the physical, social and spiritual sciences. Until I was 50 years old I was totally blind that there might be a worldwide issue with gender dysphoria. I didn’t have a hint that there were others than myself who had a feminine gender influence being intimidated, manipulated and subjugated to silence by a masculine gender façade necessary to survive ignorantly in this carnal and spiritual environment where “all ‘men’ are created equal”. It was just after my accepting the Holy Spirit, without breaks, that I was led to the newly forming internet bulletin boards (pre- LGBTQ) to define myself as just possibly not an exception and, most comforting, definitely not alone. I have a major in psychology and hid from myself for a quarter of a century what I could not define by my formal education and experience counseling as a treatable social illness. The Spirit of Truth’s directions changed all of that over the past 21 years.

    Since I began as a little child of God (a man of 50 baptized with water, sprinkled and immersed, Christian for 38 years) baptized [cleansed] with the word of God in my heart and mind I have learned and shared constructively and productively with real live people, each occupying their own different points physically, mentally and spiritually on the gender/sexual spectrum. The greatest empathetic pain I feel today is that even among the LGBTQ community all too many cannot shake the social binary intimidation that they must be one or the other extreme … physically, mentally and/or even spiritually (where there is no marriage). How can we expect those outside the community to realize the healthy spectrum if we can’t get past either or?

    Without knowing the contrast of ignorance to gender and then suddenly coming out to begin to know and grow all of me as really constructive and productive for all my species with God’s creation you cannot know how much I really can relate to a true peace previously illusive then found through my life’s unceasing commune with the Holy Spirit, who speaks only the words of my Father and my Rabbi (that is a run on sentence that really continues on further, much further).

    I have grown from a seemingly complete fall from the pride of authority, fully respected by my fellows of Man, to an infant’s smarts sufficient to know that I know nothing without my Instructor who personally teaches me as I am ready and receptive, even with the World Wide Web now at my disposal. I am “always” receptive now to Their lead and I trust Them with my life in its whole nature for all of eternity to know exactly when I am ready to progress further. Herm isn’t going away but now he is one with an ever growing equal helper of Serena Rene Christianson, once an anchor now a breath of fresh air.

    More later … especially if any here have questions or refuting evidence beyond what is supported by our societal traditions of ignorance. If I am too much to accept then by all means ignore what of me is unacceptable just as I ignored Serena when she was too much for Herm. God is all spiritual genders as one of which all parts of mankind, also as one, is only a clearing image of.

    I love you all in all that you are today! I can only testify from my opportunity of sentient life that there really is a sanctuary from intimidation, manipulation, confusion and subjugation and from within you too can know real peace and joy today. Don’t believe me or in me but believe Them and in Them without ceasing.

  • Herm

    I am sorry to be very blunt here but I must, if nothing else for the shock value. Where in the hell do you get all this certainty to preach and demean others as less knowledgeable than yourself as if you are God? I really suggest you cast off the baggage keeping you from enrollment as a disciple of the Rabbi Jesus (Matthew 14:26 and 27). Then, and only then, you can begin as we seek here to learn better in everything doing to others as we would have others doing for us, you know like we would have Jesus do for us on the cross that we might live.

    I know you do not know what you do but I know enough to know that you are hurting all of mankind and God by your ignorant preaching of the law. We are not talking theology here, we’re all here together in our mutually acknowledge ignorance struggling to learn real life eternally as children of God. Does this make any sense why I would become so incensed by your attitude of pompous dismissal?

    I do love you and so does God.

  • John Powell

    Did you read the article Herm? You seem to have totally missed both the point of the article and my response to an aspect of it. I have no argument nor judgment about persons born in such conditions, but my beef is with theologians who try to advocate that such conditions are not a result of post fall effects but are rather part of God’s specific design that may very well have occurred in creation even if the fall never happened. Her statement, “…what I see from Jesus is that he doesn’t speak of intersex as a result of the fall into sin” seems to indicate that she believes this to be true. My point is that this is an argument from
    silence and that she can make no conclusive statements from something that isn’t said in scripture. What we do have written in scripture is a perfect creation of binary genders, and I do not see any wiggle room in scripture to allow for that given the creation context of Genesis 1 and 2.

    I have no issue with the rest of the article that discusses the condition of intesex persons and the familiarity of this condition throughout history. I also agree with her that such persons are valued by God, that they are part of his story and that they deserve to be treated with respect and inclusion. Nothing I wrote addresses this part of the article.

    It is no insult nor demeaning to acknowledge the effects of the fall upon our world and the conditions people can find themselves in. The glory of God is that this does not exclude us from his loving and redemptive purposes. Thus, neither does the church exclude based on such conditions. But to advocate that the condition is not the result of the fall is not biblically defensible, and that was my sole point.

    As to your personal response to me, I am disappointed. I have read many of your other responses and this one is definitely a knee-jerk reaction to something before you had a full understanding of my points. Be more controlled in your rush to judgment Herm, you are better than that.

  • Darach Conneely

    Lets not forget the the white supremacist and slaver argument that the creation of Adam and Eve only refers to white skinned Caucasians capable of blushing (Adam’s name means ‘red’).

    Of course while white male scholars and theologians have been quite happy to see the proper God given occupation for women as pleasing their husbands and bearing children, are there any who have insisted the only God given occupation for men is sweat soaked tilling the ground?

  • Jason Brim

    Your certainty is laughable. Indeed, I laughed.

  • Herm

    John, did you read and digest the article? What in the bona fides of Dr. DeFranza and/or Mr. Corey do you contest? The theology? Based on what?

    Would you have an educated Muslim Cleric come preach, equally as committed to God as you, as to why his theology makes you an infidel? If you had read the article you would find an attempt to explain, with facts we know today, a theological perspective right out of the Bible much better than you offer. You have only shared your perspective, obviously tainted by your religious influences subject to evolved traditions, without any evidence that you just told me you are aware of but to you is because of the fall of Man. What fall?

    Does a God who has the patience to wait eons for the right environment to grow to spawn a species of beings in Their image sentence them to eternal damnation or love them any less. Does any parent you know who loves their inept children with all their heart and mind abandon their toddlers at the first fall, or any of the succeeding falls to strength and coordination to be able to walk on their own? Why do you believe our Father and Brother in Heaven would? Genesis one and two are different in their perspectives. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are different in their perspectives. Does that negate the reality of God because we little children are growing in each other’s different perspectives? Does that negate the commands of Jesus?

    If you want to speak wiggle room in Genesis one and two you might compare the two. Ask where is the real science that explains why our minute little speck of dust in the cosmos created by God revolves around such an insignificant sun rather than everything revolves around us?

    Thank you for the compliment on comments I have made before. I am explaining to my equally loved siblings of Man and God very ineptly the God alive, well and communicating in my life in kindergarten stick figures because that is where I am in Jesus’ school. I don’t even know our Father’s name, do you? I know my Brother’s name, I know your name, but I only know my parental figure of God as my Father in Heaven, His will, His words and His love. That is enough.

    My knee jerk reaction is to those of us who spout our theology as though it were the Gospel when it’s really bad news, not good (meaning constructive and productive). God loves us and Jesus trains us only when we are in the Spirit. Then the Gospel we boldly proclaim, not preach, and live as the really good news even if all we sound like are little love children.

    Please, if you feel the need to be critical muster as many facts as you can to refute the flaws that will be present in any article. “The theology here is less than paper thin” is not founded on fact, at best it is conjecture you were raised to believe.

    I have said enough, except I truly do appreciate that you care enough to vulnerably risk to share with us. Thank you!

  • John Powell

    My apologies to you, Herm. You and I interpret scripture quite differently. Rather than degrade into another disagreement, I will just say goodbye and bid you well.

  • The theology may appear “paper thin” to you, but it’s a blog post kept at under 2,000 words. She’s written an entire dissertation on it, plus a book, so it’s not actually paper thin at all.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Well-said and well-spoken, friend Herm… And kudos for recognizing (I’m a techie… sue me… *chuckle*) where the state of information was when we were kids, and not losing the ‘gee whiz’ regarding the computers we carry in our pockets and many take for granted… Not many years ago, such power would not be seen outside of DoD research facilities… so we, collectively, use such tech to look up kitty pictures and slam others “not like us”… Of course, it’s much like the advent of movie technology… first thing explored was porn, not long after followed by such as “Birth of a Nation.”

    We’ve got adult tech, and rather than use it to understand our fellow humans, we drag the medium down to the gutter…

    Loved your comment, good sir, and have saved it to read again a few times, as Brother Herm preached one! *smile*

  • Herm

    Thank you Paul. Love you and very much appreciate your support.

  • henderson678

    It’s interesting how biblical exegesis seems to ape trends in secular pop culture and adapt to shifts in social mores. Which leads to the question, why are theologians necessary when we have secularism to predict how the bible will be interpreted several decades down the road? It seems modern theologians are too anxious to enervate the word of God from formulating a critical stand against secular culture. As a historian, I see this as a curious and radical shift from first few centuries of church history, when Christianity was much more “offensive.”

  • Herm

    … “offensive” enough in the first few centuries that thousands died on crosses (or the like) in the name, example and the Spirit of the Christ. After that Christians were far less “offensive” because they wielded the sword in the spirit of Rome. No one dared to too loudly criticize as “offensive” the crusades, the Inquisition and witch hunts until long after their shame. Truly the Spirit I know today and historically is not nearly as “offensive” when disciples of Jesus are willing to die that their enemies might learn to live than when they choose to behead their enemy in defense of Christ’s name.

  • JP

    There is only male and female.

  • Stevarious

    Wow, what a powerful argument! I’m convinced.

  • JP

    Its really not that complicated. Its been this way since the beginning.

  • Falken

    I suppose, save for the very cases they state in the article.

  • Falken

    Most who usually hold that complaint are primarily of the groups incensed that the Biblical exegesis is not aping their own causes or bias.

  • Wolf

    No, actually, intersex people do exist. You don’t get to write them off just because they don’t fit in the box with the tiny, impotent little false god that you worship.

    The nice thing is that you don’t have to believe it for it to be true, so your hot air and hollow noise are wasted here.

  • Falken

    Partially. “Normal” is a combination of things, from what society pushes, to what is most prevalent. I would probably not call them defects, just variations.

  • JP

    Not really. A person is either a male or a female. There is no 3rd option. Its hot air to believe otherwise.

  • Wolf

    It’s not an “option” – it’s how people are born. Deal with it. Or don’t. But you’re an ant screaming in the wind, and no one really cares.

  • JP

    A person’s plumbing tells them that they are either male or female. Its always been this way and will always be.

  • Wolf

    Did you not even read the article? 1 in every 2000 children is born with both male and female organs. That’s a well-documented medical fact. Shaking your head and stamping your little feet like a petulant, bratty child will not change that.

  • JP

    So what. That does not change the fact a person is either male or female.

  • Wolf

    Sure it does. If a person’s “plumbing” tells them and they have both male and female “plumbing,” then they can’t be one or the other. You just contradicted your own argument.

    Don’t feel bad – when you get bigger and go into high school and take biology, you’ll learn how these things work. :)

  • JP

    That condition can easily be fixed.

  • Wolf

    Poor little JP. Still so much to learn. But do your homework and stay in school, and you’ll be much better prepared to interact with adults.

    See, most well-adjusted adults aren’t nearly as obsessed with others’ genitals as you seem to be. It’s common in puberty, but you will grow out of it, I’m sure.

  • JP

    If this kind of thing has been going on for a long time then why is it now being made some kind of issue that we can no know longer know that a person is either male or female? This is just nonsense.

  • Wolf

    It’s actually not an issue at all, little JP. See, if someone introduces herself to me as a woman, then I treat her like a woman. I don’t feel the need to question whether she’s a woman by checking what’s between her legs.

    As I said, obsession with others’ genitals is a common trait in adolescents like yourself who are still going through puberty, but when you get to be an adult, you’ll learn not to concern yourself with such things and instead simply be kind to people and treat them with respect.

  • JP

    This is like saying that twins who are born at birth and share the same hip are some how some new species of humanity.
    So a man who says to you that he is a woman you don’t question it? Its ok for him to use the women’s restroom even if there are other girls in there. Right?

  • Wolf

    Aww, I realize how threatening it can seem for you, JP. See, if a woman goes into a bathroom to do her thing, it’s really not important what equipment she’s using to do it.

    Now, if she rapes someone in the bathroom, that’s a pretty serious crime regardless of what genitals she has, so it really makes very little difference.

    Now perhaps you are the sort of boy who is worried about going into a girl’s bathroom for fear of being overtaken by your own uncontrollable sexual urges, but as I’ve said several times now, once you grow out of puberty, your constant obsession with sex will likely start to fade away.

  • JP

    Absolutely amazing. You would have no problem if some guy says he is a woman and wants to use the woman’s restroom. I hope you have no daughters.

  • Wolf

    When someone tells me he wants to use the restroom, the most common thing to assume that means is, “I need to pee.” Or, well, you know.

    I know it’s hard for you to imagine anyone with male genitalia NOT wanting to just rape every woman in sight – you were probably raised that way, and the pubescent sex obsession certainly doesn’t help – but most people use bathrooms to eliminate waste from their bodies.

  • JP

    You are so naïve.

  • Wolf

    Oooh, such fancy vocabulary! If only you understood what that word actually means. It’s quite ironic coming from the one who thinks anything with male anatomy is just a mindless raping machine.

  • JP

    I know its a big word for ya so let me define it for ya: “having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous”
    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/naive
    This describes you to the t.

  • Wolf

    No, actually, it’s not a very big word at all! It’s only five letters. So… hmm… experience. Well, I’ve been in a lot of bathrooms – male, female, and co-ed – and I’ve never once experienced a rape! Or witnessed one. And even if I HAD, I’d be far more concerned with the fact that someone was raped than with what the rapist had between his/her legs.

    Information… eh, no lack there. Read the actual article, and there’s plenty of information all through it. Just because you don’t LIKE it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

    Judgment… well, I suppose I do lack judgment to some extent, as evidenced by the fact that I’m wasting time here arguing with an uneducated bigot, so perhaps you’ve got me there.

  • JP

    Sign of a failed argument is calling people names.

  • Wolf

    “Oooh! Oooh! You called me a name! That means you automatically lose!”

    No, little JP. Life doesn’t work that way. See, using “uneducated” and “bigot” are terms for describing the behavior you are showing – much the same as you calling me “naïve,” in fact.

    You, on the other hand, seem to think that it is perfectly normal to dictate how people behave because of what reproductive organs they have. The fixation you have on sex is really not healthy – if you don’t grow out of it once you become an adult, I’d recommend therapy. There are people who can help you break away from your obsession with sex.

  • JP

    That term I used was description of how you think. You called me a derogatory name.

  • Wolf

    No, I called you an uneducated bigot, which you demonstrably are. Uneducated because your comments are devoid of even a basic sixth-grade level of understanding, and bigot because you’re flat-out trying to deny that people exist if they don’t fit in your little box. The only people who consider “bigot” a pejorative are the very people who fit the description. But if “bigot” is “derogatory” to your delicate sensitivities, I’ll say “transphobic” instead.

  • No

    In this particular article and comment section altercation I don’t think anyone’s saying we can’t know, under normal circumstances, if people are male or female. What the article is saying that – whether by design or genetic entropy – some kids are born with rather confusing anatomy that prevents the doctors from being able to reliably assume those kids’ sexes. The idea that someone can be ‘in between’ MENTALLY is one I wouldn’t fault you for finding ridiculous; I’ve been unsure how to approach it myself, though I find it to be within the realm of possibility. It’s a complicated issue.

  • No

    I’m actually pretty impressed by JP’s responses. Not because they’re particularly good or anything (they’re not), but because he’s generally remained calm while you’ve been eviscerating him.

  • No

    This has worried me as well. I think a large part of it is simply that historically we’ve been rather slow to try to really understand people. Humility and genuine attempts at bridging gaps are scarier than standing our ground on things that… might sometimes be the wrong things to stand our ground on.
    Also, as a Christian one has to avoid extremes. G. K. Chesterton once noted that the secular culture of his day would, for example, criticize Christians at one moment for being too austere and the next for being too passionate. The conclusion he drew was that Christianity was like a person that a tall man thinks is too short and a short man thinks is too tall- that is, exactly the ‘right’ height.

  • Brandon Roberts

    there are 3 genders and honestly idc people can’t help how they’re born and someone elses life as long as they aren’t hurting themselves it’s no ones business but they’re own

  • dirtdigger11

    Do you have some evidence to back up that statement?

  • Herm

    YES!

  • Herm

    I have daughters who have no problem with separating how to use their equipment in a healthy manner for everyone. Using the bathroom facilities, especially with stalls and no urinal, is not an intimacy to be shared sexually … only procreation is and my daughters know a public bathroom is not healthy for anyone to be used that way.

  • dirtdigger11

    JP I don’t know if you are male or female but at some point or another you have shared a restroom with an intersex person and didn’t even know it. So what do you propose to do? Make everyone who enters a restroom drop their drawers for a genital check? Don’t worry about this even. It’s a nonexistent problem.

  • Herm

    Brandon, I differ with you rarely but if you’re going to fly the rainbow you need to know it represents a spectrum of genders of which no one occupies the same point as another, now or ever. As many people as there ever has been is how many different variations of gender representation there is. God can handle that registry … we are yet too limited.

    I agree wholeheartedly that gender and sexual identity is not a choice. What we do with the opportunity we’ve been gifted is. We all have the choice to in everything do to others as we would have others do to us.

    As one species collectively responsible to the survival and health of the whole if a masochist would have others intimidate, manipulate, confuse or subjugate her/him, and does so to others not of that choice or age of responsibility, then the body of Man must isolate that cancer. None of that should be a problem for those born different from them who love their merciful neighbors as themselves. Love you. Thank you for supporting us!

  • caming

    I’m not that impressed. He’s simply a seasoned troll. I’d guess he’s been at this for a while.

  • Ron McPherson

    “…to advocate that the condition is not the result of the fall is not biblically defensible.”

    John, wouldn’t the burden of biblical proof rest not on Dr. DeFranza’s claim (i.e. that the condition is not the result of the fall), but rather on yours (i.e. that the condition IS the result of the fall)? What am I missing?

  • Hinchsense

    If Sin coming into the world warped man’s mind, emotions and will, leading to many forms of social and cultural corruption, surely genetic corruptions in gender reproduction can occur as well. What God has made can be perverted by what God never intended to be made. This would explain why gender laws in the book of Leviticus and elsewhere were required – so that gender confusion was kept at a clear and specific minimum.

  • Falken

    Or sin came into the world, warped man’s perception into believing anything not fitting within their paradigms was a form of social and cultural corruption. The bigger problems come from trying to codify it as a “defect” or “sin”, then attempting to ignore any sort of rationale or logic to continue with this codification outside of any information that supports it.

  • otrotierra

    No Hinchsense, Jesus isn’t calling you to condemn intersex people. That’s just you and your self-serving opinion of convenience.

    Instead of condemning your neighbors via your own intellectual sloth, you could follow Jesus and practice the Greatest Commandment.

  • Herm

    “hinch”

    from The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia

    To be stingy; be miserly; grudge.

    ….or

    “Hinch”

    from The Urban Dictionary

    The coolest person around.

    “sense”

    1. a faculty by which the body perceives an external stimulus; one of the faculties of sight, smell, hearing, taste, and touch.

    2. a feeling that something is the case.

    Hinchsense, your inflated feelings are based purely on your premise alone that “If sin coming into the world …”. That is one most inadequate start to make a point. Sorry, “if’s” don’t buy it as points of fact.

    God is by definition omnipotent and nothing will be “perverted” unless our Father in Heaven intentionally allows it.

    You yourself don’t give me the impression that you are following to the letter the laws set down in Leviticus. You get a buy on that if you truly believe Jesus fulfilled the law of the Tabernacle [sacrifice of the first and only begotten Lamb of God] when he gave up His spirit on the cross and the curtain was torn top to bottom. But, then, so does everyone else.

    Love your vulnerable efforts but no sell, rejected.

  • Hinchsense

    Who said anything about rejecting or not loving intersexed people. You guys are great at twisting peoples words to your own interpretations and creating a context for them that is not even part of the conversation. I said nothing about not loving anyone. But that is what you want statements of truth to reflect, so you use the old “You don’t love me [them] if you disagree with me [them].” line. I can love everyone, including my enemies who disagree with me. And Jesus said that, not me.

    Mat_5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

    Luk_6:27 “But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

    Luk_6:35 “But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

  • Hinchsense

    HaHa! You are a human person with an intelligent mind, sensitive feelings, and good will toward others regardless of your name or how you would like to be “titled.” You, as we all do, struggle with our Sin before a holy God that cannot sin. But I do not equate you with the urban dictionary definitions listed below, Because God created you in His image, although a broken image because of sin, you are much much more than these denigrating definitions imply/

    Herm
    one who has both male and female sex organs
    that it is a herm

    herm
    can mean anything you want. it is a verb (herming), adjective (herm, hermy), noun (herm, hermer). can be used to describe anything in any way. it can be either positive or negative.
    “Stop herming!”
    “You’re being really herm.”

    Herm
    noun-
    herm

    An insult, meaning hermaphrodite and a hermit or passive aggressive and a loser.
    The hermaphrodite aspect is that this person is a pussy and a dick, or passive (pussy) and aggressive (dick). The hermit aspect is that this person never leaves their home (loser). Take the first syllable of these two words and you are left with the word herm. Herms can usually be identified by the slump in their shoulders, crust on their faces, and incredibly poor social skills. Herms are the kinds of people that will have your car towed instead of telling you that you’re parking in their spot, or they will sue your for harassment before telling you that they don’t like your being friendly.

    verb-
    herm, herming, hermed (past tense)

    To actively be a herm. For example, the point in which said herm (noun) decides to file a noise compliant instead of talking things out one on one, is the point he is herming (verb) or has just hermed (past tense) upon someone. Herming can usually be identified when one chooses to take drastic measures over the simple solution.
    “The guy down stairs is such a herm. Why did he call the police and say we were raising can and having a party when we were simply watching television? Even the police man was confused!”

    “I have a distinct feeling that the guy downstairs is gonna be herming this weekend. He hermed and filed a noise complaint yesterday when we were just talking in the kitchen!”

  • Hinchsense

    Yes. Sin came into the world and warped man’s perceptions in every way. And that is why we need salvation from our sinful states in the blood [Cross] and power [Holy Spirit] of Jesus Christ as he conforms us to His will for us and back into the original image He desired for us in the beginning and much much more. Transformation into what we have never been before is the hope and calling of the Gospel of Jesus. Only a perfect Spirit within our spirits can resurrect us from the deadness of our sins without Jesus Christ and faith in His work on the Cross and the power of His resurrection to change us from the inside out.

    Eph 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

    Eph 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

    Eph 4:19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

    Eph 4:20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,

    Eph 4:21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

    Eph 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,

    Eph 4:23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,

    Eph 4:24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

  • Herm

    Okay, I’m a hermaphrodite hermit and neither is an insult but do denote a physical condition of reality. Herm is my given name with no intentional allusion as to my physical, social, mental or spiritual condition. Is Hinchsense a given name or an avatar of your choosing? If you meant to signify nothing then I apologize for you then are not claiming either miserly or cool feeling.

    In any case, your inflated feeling remains rejected on its lack of merit alone.

    Any argument beginning with “If” is a hypothesis and is not a base founded upon any solid, like rock. Begin, again, and maybe your argument won’t be rejected.

  • Also, there are no gay people.

    Wow, this is easy. Bring on the next controversial topic!

  • Herm

    Where did all the lighthearted and carefree people go?

  • I don’t know, because there is also no alienation or immigration problems.

  • Falken

    This includes partial delusions that some are righteous via strong memory of scripture.

  • Herm

    By your argument are you saying that intersex is a sin; a separation from the will and Spirit of the Father, His only begotten Son and all the children of God that are in their Father and their Brother and their Father and their Brother is in them? Must the intersexed that this article is addressing repent? Really, I don’t know what your argument is in regard to.

  • Proud Amelekite

    The problem is how do we know that Leviticus was right? How do we know intersex, transgender, and so on aren’t natural variations no different from being left handed? And before you mention the infallibility of the bible, I would point out that the same testament containing Leviticus also contains passages commanding the murder of children, the rape of women, and to take slaves. Christians have moved beyond the old laws so who is to say that the gender stuff isn’t equally outdated?

    Just a thought.

  • Proud Amelekite

    If God is on your side then why isn’t Science?

  • JP

    What science?

  • Adam “Giauz” Birkholtz

    So what if you lie through your teeth, but you’re only repeating Jesus’ Word, right?

  • Adam “Giauz” Birkholtz

    Oh, we can cover up a Big Lie you mean?

  • This is like saying that twins who are born at birth and share the same hip are some how some new species of humanity.

    Except a species is somewhat more distinct than sex or gender. No matter how we define our biological terms, there are a lot of ways nature likes to trip us up- external, internal, chromosomal and neural structures can each fall outside the realm of what we consider male or female.

  • Adam “Giauz” Birkholtz

    You’re making an argument in the family of “driving while black”. Using the restroom isn’t evil, well, unless you use it while transgender!

  • Adam “Giauz” Birkholtz

    Are you seeking to confess to commiting rape?

  • Adam “Giauz” Birkholtz

    Sounds like Jesus makes plans. Sin laughs.

  • Actually, neuroscience has been finding (repeatedly) that the structure of the brain of transgender people physically resembles the sex they identify as, rather than the sex they were assigned at birth.

  • Hinchsense

    Herm, When I think of your situation I feel compassion. When working as a Head Chaplain for a city mission a few years ago, a hermaphrodite identifying as a girl came to the mission. I wanted to sit down and share Christ with her. But life had hardened her heart and Christians who should have shown love and understanding did not know how to love with emotional maturity or even try to understand. The Executive Director of the mission, a former pastor himself, simply took an “ignore her and she will go away” approach. He did not want to discuss the issue or even broach a serious discussion of the issues involved. Most Christians simply do not know how to handle an intelligent issue that takes the scriptures seriously and yet approaches difficult topics in a healthy biblical fashion. This same attitude is true of relating to homosexuals, alcoholics, the sexually abused and others fixated on some earthly aspect of themselves that is different and odd from the “norm” in culture or “condemned” in scripture.

    God’s love is demonstrated to us through allowing His Son to die for us for our redemption and new life beginning in the power of His spirit. Many times, we sinners have to take the immaturity of believers into account and realize that they do not love or respect the humanity of others outside their own tribe or cultural mindset.

    This true as it relates to race, other creeds, politics, and gender issues. Many just do not have the emotional maturity to respect a persons humanity despite differences, deformities, and things that run contrary to their sense of “right” or ability to relate in a godly wholesome way to those who are different in major ways.

    Of course their self-righteous prejudices can drive the emotionally immature who have not received understanding, acceptance, a sense of love in spite of manipulative lust, and other prejudices away in self-righteous anger and resentments. It is understandable, while neither opposition stream of self-righteousness is right before God, led by his Spirit, or healthy as an expression of any real faith in God through Jesus Christ. And then there is the devil who is constantly driving wedges of immaturity between believers and unbelievers as well as between believers and believers.

    If hermaphrodite or homosexual truly walks in intimacy with God, they will not make their homosexual desires or genetic alternatives to the norm, their focus, anymore than Christian alcoholics or drug users, Christian thieves, Christian liars, or Christian prigs, or Christian hypocrites make his or her sinful issues the center of their focus in life. True Christians make Christ the center of their lives, and the pleasure of God in Christ the center of their willful desires, and Word of God central to their definition of why they think, feel, and do what they do. Glorifying God above all things, including one’s struggles with personal sin or struggles with others personal sins is more important. Taking our eyes off ourselves and the sins of others and placing them on the Holy God who loved us enough to send His Son to die for us is what is most important.

    But Satan, the destroyer want to divide and keep negative defensiveness and debate alive with swords drawn on both sides.

    You asked about repentance as an intersexed person. The answer to that question is the same for every issue where a person needs to change one’s mind and think from God’s perspective as best as we can. For that is what repentance is – the change of one’s mind from one direction to another.

    So a hermaphrodte need not repent of what he/she is physically, because they did not ask to have their genetic structure, it simply is what it is. But there may be a need to repent of those behaviors which accompany a negative hermaphroditic lifestyle – alcoholic drunkeness, or drugged stupors and excesses used to escape false senses of shame from within or from others may need repentance, hatred toward those who hate us for genetic differences may need repentance, since God wants us to love others in spite of their unloving attitudes and behaviors. Lying to ourselves or others to cover shame and embarrassments may need repentance. And as the Holy Spirit leads and our emotional maturity increases as a result, one sinner who handles his insecurities in one way, may prove to be much more emotionally mature in Christ than another.

    A positive hermaphroditic lifestyle may require making Christ more important to one’s lifestyle than one’s genetics. Learning to love those who misunderstand and control ones tongue when faces with immature idiots in their ignorance may be a way God drives a hermaphrodite to great maturity with those less mature and understanding. Choosing sexual behaviors that reflect biblical standards will need to be thought through, developed over time and lived out with maturity in Christ.

    The Spirit can lead anyone, regardless of their genetics or their fleshly desires [nature or nurture] into conformity with Christ from within and without. And instead being, in fleshly immaturity, a bitter angry, judgmental, resentful, or withdrawn person, or overt abrasive person, the Spirit can lead a hermaphrodite to be a loving, joyful, peaceful, patient, good, kind, faithful, gentle and self-controlled person. How that fruit of the Spirit expresses itself will be different for each non-hermaphrodite and hermaphrodite as God leads. One thing is for sure, if Christ and his apostles are taken seriously:

    Rom 8:14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

  • Hinchsense

    Very good questions cajaquarius. But it is late and i will need to address these things tomorrow.

  • But to advocate that the condition is not the result of the fall is not biblically defensible, and that was my sole point.

    How do you (dis)prove a theological negative? The Bible doesn’t say a word about our bodies becoming corrupted. Heck, outside of the New Testament, it doesn’t say a word about Genesis being a story about the origin of death (as far as I’m aware, Judaism doesn’t interpret it this way, only as a just-so story for the nature of good and evil in humanity).

  • LadySunami

    Uh, if a person says she is a woman then she is a woman. There is no “guy” in the situation you describe.

  • What comic is this from?

  • JP

    If the person has male sex organs that means they are a guy no matter what he says. That is the reality.

  • Herm

    Mr. Hitchsense, why would you “feel” compassion for my situation? I clearly know more real peace and joy than you. I pass no judgment but I do stand up to risk dying to save the meek, gentle, kindhearted and those who might over come their ignorance to actually find the Holy Spirit who didn’t die at the end of Revelations. I truly do have compassion for your ignorance, our Father can forgive it, and I, also, appreciate your taking the time to speak with the sick hermaphrodite and her/his buddies, those down and out indigents, rather than shun to crucify them as did the former pastor. It takes a lot more courage to do so when not in counsel with the Spirit of God who actually does know their hearts and minds. You are lot stronger man or woman unto yourself than I.

    I hurt for you because you do not understand sin. I cannot sin against God because I am constantly, without ceasing, inside reciprocally conversing company with the Holy Spirit. Jesus and our Father is in me and I am in our Father and Jesus. My Father’s and my Brother’s words tell me exactly what to do for each heart and mind who is sincerely, in all humility, seeking, asking and knocking as are you today.

    ““Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:9-12

    “Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”” Matthew 22:37-40 [this sums up the Decalogue perfectly in order]

    When is a hermaphrodite, an alcoholic, a homosexual, a drug user, a pastor or a former pastor outside the Law and the Prophets of God: sinning? When exactly did our Father change from a God of wrath to a God of mercy? When did our Lord Christ change from a Prince of Peace, to a lord of the crusades, inquisitions, witch burnings (all destroying men, women, children and the unborn), and then to a lord leading to kill the abortion doctor to save all those helpless unborn babies? WHEN?

    Love you, really!

  • Herm

    Cajaquarius, you can rest your case. Thanks!

  • Herm

    It’s called “dysphoria”.

  • Hinchsense

    You do not know me well enough to make such a blanket statement that I do not understand sin. But that is nothing to quibble about. I just disagree based on your ignorance of me or the innermost depths of my heart. God knows me. God has always been a God of wrath and a God of mercy – because He is both just and forgiving. He is slow to anger, but He does get angry at sin. And He is continually merciful and kind.

    Psa_86:15 But You, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, Slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness and truth.

    Psa_103:8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.

    Furthermore, I do not equate the God of scripture with the anger and self-righteous sins of the history of the carnal church [crusades, etc.].

    As to God always being a God of wrath and a God of mercy at one and the same time but applied to different persons in time I look to this passage of scripture:

    om 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

    Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!

    Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

    Rom 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

    Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

    Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

    Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

    Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

    Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

    Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

    Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

    Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

    I am glad you love me in Christ. I love you as well.

    1Pe 4:8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.

  • Herm

    … and we all, in the image of God, share the same distinct deoxyribonucleic acid of one species. How can that be and we’re all so antagonistic toward our minor differences? Is it possible that the only begotten Son and the Father are each different but acknowledge Their common spiritual DNA to unite as One in the Spirit bound by love? Does mankind have any opportunity to unite as one bound by love without the Spirit to do so?

  • Herm

    ““Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.” Matthew 7:15-20

    I do not know what is in your heart and mind but the Holy Spirit does as He is conversing and leading in my heart and mind. I, although, can recognize you by your fruit, especially since as once ordained in the church my fruit wasn’t much different when separated from the Spirit to work from my heart and mind alone. The Bible didn’t cut it, the Word of God did.

    Take your time and don’t react in defense of your theology. Answer the question, at least to yourself, relative to this thread: “When is a hermaphrodite, an alcoholic, a homosexual, a drug user, a pastor or a former pastor outside the Law and the Prophets of God: sinning?”

    Thank you for reciprocating my love for you!

  • Does mankind have any opportunity to unite as one bound by love without the Spirit to do so?

    This is not a question I feel up to answering in any great detail, save to say that the answer is yes and the odds, with or without the spirit, are unfathomably slim.

    But I’m an optimist.

  • Herm

    Thank you!!! We can agree that we have been graced the opportunity. The rest is up to us, with free will in the image of God, to beat those unfathomable odds. The really, really good news is that individually we don’t have to in order to live. There is an opportunity of invitation on the table for adoption into, I’ve been told by the only Authority I trust, a truly divine Family, not of this world, to inherit eternal life (beginning now). We can rest in that promise optimistically enthused to proclaim the good news to all who will listen. Great answer, thanks, again.

  • cvryder2000

    The frequency of intersex births is actually a little more common than Dr. DeFranza states. It’s more like 1:1700. I worked in neonatal for 9 months at one point fairly early in my career, and in that time there were around 600 births in the small town hospital where I worked. We had one baby who was definitely intersex, and one who was very likely so during that time. Until quite recently, it was doctors who made the decisions about what should be done in re “assigning” gender to these children, often with disastrous results for the children. Lately, with support from the Intersex Society of North America and other organizations, there has been considerable pushback to delay any surgery or gender assignment until the child recognizes and decides what gender it is. There’s currently a lawsuit in North Carolina by some adoptive parents against a group of surgeons who operated on a child born intersex; they assigned it female gender, but the child says it is a boy and the parents believe it is a boy. I will be very interested in the outcome of this lawsuit.

  • $136305622

    Was your original comment proposing that we love intersex people? Even though you referred to intersexed individuals as a result of sin? (your words, which are not twisted by anyone: “If Sin coming into the world warped man’s mind, emotions and will, leading to many forms of social and cultural corruption, surely genetic corruptions in gender reproduction can occur as well. “) You refer to intersexed individuals as a perversion of God’s creation. Again, your words. You did not explicitly say “condemn” but most people who use the terminology you have used talk about how it is the Christian’s duty to condemn sin. So it is not a leap or major distortion on the part of Orotierra to say you condemn intersex. You certainly did not indicate that intersexed people are to be included with the rest or people.

  • ashpenaz

    Wow! This is a great article if I used facts as an aid to help me understand reality. But I’m a Christian and I can look at the Grand Canyon and believe the earth is 6000 years old; I can believe Moses wrote the Torah even though writing hadn’t been invented yet; I can see that the world’s hottest years have all been in the last decade and believe global warming is made up by liberals; I can believe Barack Obama is a Muslim who was born in Kenya whose name adds up to 666. I’m not going to approach the transgender issue based on facts. So don’t waste my time with things which have been proved true. Transgender is icky so that means God hates it. Except those funny Tyler Perry movies.

  • davidt57

    I’m not willing to overthrow the biblical picture and 2000 years of church tradition because less than 1/2% of the population is born intersex. Besides, all that IS is not necessarily as God wants it to be. Would we say that about spina bifida and other serious birth defects? No. So why the push regarding people born intersex? Because that would lend greater legitimacy to homosexuality, the cause de jour. But it makes more sense to describe intersex as a manifestation of the brokenness of creation. Certainly not sinful, but a manifestation of the brokenness of creation that derives from sin. (Romans 8:19-23)

  • simplymagic

    I think people who think equating intersex with birth defects like spinal bifida is a reasonable approach are a manifestation of brokenness.

  • Herm

    David you wrote, “I’m not willing to overthrow the biblical picture and 2000 years of church tradition…”.

    Why might you think Jesus spoke this …

    ” If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple. …”

    … if not that we must overthrow “church tradition” in favor of His teaching us through the Spirit of Truth? What Gospel was proclaimed and died for by the early Christian when the New Testament had not been written and/or compiled yet except that of the Holy Spirit in their hearts and minds?

    This is a pretty good estimate of the known timeline of mankind: http://humanhistorytimeline.com/

    Note that the Earth was fully populated 25,000 years ago by sentient human beings (in the image of God?).

    The Jewish calendar, meticulously maintained, dates one year prior to creation back to 3,760 years before the birth of Christ.

    Moses was born 1,391 years prior to the birth of Christ. With 2,015 years after the birth of Christ we have had 624 years more. We have had 591 years to accept the filling of our hearts and minds, even the Gentiles, with the Holy Spirit, according to Jesus in the Bible. Historically, considering the fruit from the Christian church after Constantine, how well have we done in the traditions of the Bible at accepting the word of God, the Spirit of Truth?

    Is it your fear that you might “lend greater legitimacy to homosexuality” if you accept ½% of the population of mankind that are born intersexed as a normal sexuality condition that you hold on to tradition? Does any sexuality or gender representation have to, in and of itself alone, be sin outside of Matthew 7:12 and Matthew 22:37-40 [all the Law and the Prophets]? When Jesus has told us there is no marriage in Heaven why are we so worried who we are attracted to as a helper, even if intersexed? Where are you storing your treasures?

    Please note the following as most important for you to know the truth:

    ““If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.” John 14:15-27

    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:36-40

    “The LORD said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him. I myself will set my face against him and will cut him off from his people; for by sacrificing his children to Molek, he has defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name. If the members of the community close their eyes when that man sacrifices one of his children to Molek and if they fail to put him to death, I myself will set my face against him and his family and will cut them off from their people together with all who follow him in prostituting themselves to Molek. “‘I will set my face against anyone who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute themselves by following them, and I will cut them off from their people. “‘Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the LORD your God. Keep my decrees and follow them. I am the LORD, who makes you holy. “‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. Because they have cursed their father or mother, their blood will be on their own head. “‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death. “‘If a man has sexual relations with his father’s wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. “‘If a man has sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, both of them are to be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads. “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. “‘If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you. “‘If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he is to be put to death, and you must kill the animal. “‘If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. “‘If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They are to be publicly removed from their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible. “‘If a man has sexual relations with a woman during her monthly period, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them are to be cut off from their people. “‘Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible. “‘If a man has sexual relations with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless. “‘If a man marries his brother’s wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless. “‘Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. But I said to you, “You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey.” I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations. “‘You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those that I have set apart as unclean for you. You are to be holy to me because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own. “‘A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.’ ” Leviticus 20:1-27

    ““Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.” Matthew 23:23-24

    ““You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:43-48

    Just which biblical picture won’t you overthrow?

    Love you and all who have the opportunity as do I, no matter how unique they were born, to live with free will in the image of God. Those who have mercy on me are my neighbors who I love as myself.

  • LadySunami

    If a person is a woman then as her sex organs belong to her they are a woman’s sex organs.

  • falcon

    wow herm . . . “i pass no judgement” after making a judgement that you
    know more real peace and joy than mr hinchsense. what’s up with that?
    sounds a bit hypocritical at first read.

  • Herm

    I know how it must sound, thank you for reflecting. I hope you see that I made no judgment of condemnation, especially based on some figment of a fall from grace due to “…Sin coming into the world”. God truly does love us exactly as we are and I know this first hand in my life. This is the good news we should be sharing with the rest of the world and not viewing others as different sexually because of mankind’s sin. God can work with and in our hearts and minds and does in mine without ceasing. I fear no sin or being saddled with the sins of my relatives past. I find what seems like unlimited joy from just this experience and savor of sentient life as an opportunity not a chore. I say it all the time and know most don’t have a clue that I am not being some sanctimonious jerk that I know the Holy Spirit in my heart and mind at all times now, it wasn’t always this way. I was where Mr. Hinchsense is and I know there is rarely joy and peace because of a dependence upon the Bible to know God as compared to now where I know the Word of God from my Rabbi’s and our Father’s mouth directly. Yes it is as written sometimes a sword but most often is a salve. As mankind we are children maybe 30,000 years old compared to God with no beginning. I now trust God to take care of me as a Family of an adorable bumbling child and not as a vengeful task master of a slave.

    Anyway, this is coming directly from me and not the Spirit of Truth. As I explained earlier the best pictures I can draw of the Family I know is in the form of stick figures for I am only just learning to communicate as a child being taught by Jesus. The only judgment I made relative to Mr. Hinchsense is that the pictures he draws of the Family I know are much scarier, intimidating and manipulating than I see and know Them today. His pictures reflect far less peace and joy.

    I hope this make some sense because it is true and available to us all equally. It does not matter what we’ve each been uniquely born with but how we choose to use this opportunity we’ve each been graced with that does matter. There is peace and joy available when we abide by the commands of Jesus.

    It has been a long day and I am fatigued but I felt I needed to thank you for your observation right now and make some attempt to be a bit more clear. I will try to be more clear in the future than appearing judgmental when I know I have no authority to be so. Thank you, again.

  • JP

    That is true.

  • LadySunami

    Yup. Which is why some women have penises, some women have uteri, and some women have both penises and uteri. The same can be said for men, who can also have uteri, penises or both. There was once a man named Levi Suydam who had a penis through which he actually menstruated once a month (Source).

  • DrewTwoFish

    Is that all you’ve got for the small percentage who don’t fit into a neat and tidy binary complimentary paradigm, be they gay, transgender, intersexed or whatever?

    Cause of the day or not, we have the same needs for intimacy and connection as anybody else.

  • DrewTwoFish

    Yay! Me too!

  • DrewTwoFish

    Ugh. Don’t bother. JP, meet Bag Of Hammers. I think you’ll be very happy together.

  • buricco

    So people with both sets of parts are chopped liver?

  • jdens

    I LOVE this game. I’m just going to handwave away: bigotry, poverty, racism, violence, sexism, taxes, illness, death…

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Love you too, brother… You’ve only got a little more than a decade on me, and, as such we are somewhat like Grandpa in The Princess Bride… When we were kids, information retrieval was called “books.” I’m 58, and never cease to be amazed that I’ve got access to pretty much every bit of information on the planet on this little LG phone I carry in my pocket, and this laptop that fits in a binder is more powerful than DoD gear of only 20 or so years ago… (and I’m just enough on the spectrum to be delighted I’ve got such a powerful tool to communicate in ways that are difficult for me face-to-face many times).

    As we’ve discussed on the threads of others of Ben’s blog posts, our terminology, emphasis and interpretations of the deep things of spirit do differ, but that’s surface appearances… we’re not so different, you and I, and I admire you deeply.

  • JD

    A deity made a male proto-human out of clay. Then it made a genetically altered male-to-female clone of it so the two could breed and thus the whole human race was born.

    As creation myths go I’ve always found the bible’s to be one of the silliest. However, it actually supports gender being fluid.

    As much as you want to cling to flat Earth superstitions it doesnt change the reality that gender and gender orientation was never set in stone.

  • Herm

    I too, admire you deeply. I do hope others might notice that it is not so bad sharing different perspectives inside a mutual admiration society. I know all human individuals, collectively all members of the same body of mankind, are not so different, others, you and I. We try but we can’t deny the same DNA of species. Wouldn’t it be really exciting to live long enough that we are a part of a global mutual admiration society feeling free to share our different perspectives as one?

    I repaired DoD computers as an occupation when my physical body and brain were more agile. I did so because it took someone trained on very large antiquated equipment as it was hard to convert rapidly to new equipment. I knew of the field testing of newer innovations used in communications before most were allowed to the public, many coming directly out of their laboratories.

    As I drew the timeline a picture was developing of how far we’ve come from cuneiform to Youtube or Netflix we can watch on our phones on the way to the other side of the world. As much as we don’t like to admit it entertainment and play are forms children and adults alike learn from through different forms of perspective communications, “the arts” are the least restrictive and most challenging.

    What if there was an entertainment and play, that we were free to relax in as we participated, was most satisfactorily challenging to learn from without any dimensions to restrict our growth, and while the endorphin was pumping we felt certainty in our protected peace and continuing joy? That is what I understand and feel today alive in and out of this world. Growing step by step learning to use the most highly sophisticated communication tool beyond what I could have ever imagined that is free for the asking to every one of mankind. I, of course, am speaking of the Holy Spirit.

    I once was a responsible, constructive, productive and an in charge person for the security and development of mankind and knew no freedom of entertainment and play like this. Now I am so satisfied to be the smallest little childish influence communicating in a most divine, without exaggeration, omnipresent mutual admiration society I truly believe there is.

    I was graced to be able to see, with my minds eye, within buildings and machines to know what had to be inside to troubleshoot and do the least damage when I had to surgically repair the break in the circuit. This took education, lab work and mistakes learned from before I became proficient but comparatively speaking by the grace of God to give me access I became proficient. I see today the inner workings of the hundreds of thousands of microscopic flip flops, diode gates, magnets, chassis and even the bit flow of the phone I hold in my hand right now. Better than that I see today God everywhere there is to be and sitting entirely in my and your heart and mind simultaneously. The propagation of the connecting communicative signal facilitated by the breath of the Spirit of God is free from the boundaries of our world’s atmosphere or the expansive void of our cosmos. I haven’t shared that vision of reality with anyone before but with you.

    I know there is more … infinitely more … eternally more coming that I so much want to share as we grow in communication facilities and abilities what we see with all my fellows of mankind: female, male, intersex, gay, multi-gender, transgender and none of the above all alike mutually gratifying for everyone.

    Okay Paul, I did it again, I preached with probably only the choir listening. I am sorry if you got down this far in my soliloquy only to have to say, “Is that all he’s got?” Maybe, with this practice and a lot more I’ll be ready to share outside this our sanctuary of love provided by the grace of God and Ben, thanks to both.

    Thank you so much for sharing to stimulate our growth together!

    P.S.
    As is my habit I will be rereading and editing to correct the mistakes that crept in as my thoughts and feelings flowed freely. No excuse but that I am a most imperfect child striving to correct that through entertainment, exercise and play. Thank you for playing along!

  • Adam “Giauz” Birkholtz

    “Intersection”
    LOL! Oh, auto correct, you idiot “smart” program!

  • DrewTwoFish

    LOL. Yikes. Thanks for the catch.

  • JP

    If a person has a male sex organ then that means they are a male. If a person has a female sex organ, then that means they are a female.
    If a person has both then they need to get fixed.

  • How about a person with female external organs and ovaries which produce sperm?

  • JP

    That would be abnormal. Right?

  • Paul Julian Gould

    Meh.. Preach on, Bro! I certainly enjoyed it!

    In the early 90’s, I was doing IT for a defense contractor that provided personnel and support to various alphabet soup orgs,, and, as such, got to see some really whiz-bang tech that now is obsolete by the mid-level laptop I use as my point of contact for folks…

    And, yes, I tend to illustrate my own sense of wonder by describing Dr. deGrasse-Tyson’s delight in the universe, and my own involuntary postscript… “Wow! And God’s even bigger than that!”

    On a delightful adventure, which can’t be completed in the relatively few days on this plane, so I’m looking forward to the next step.

    If my atheist friends are correct, and there’s nothing after, it really won’t matter anyway, but I do try to live my life so there’s to be very little regret at my last breath, however soon or far away that event will be.

  • Paul Julian Gould

    And, yes, I’ve got a long online history of stream-of-consciousness typing… Being slightly on the spectrum, I find I express myself most fully behind a keyboard or musically… In verbal communication, there’s no backspace or delete key, nor is there an engineer to say, “Cut… let’s try that track again…” and so, I avoid generally locking up and freezing by the latter cases *gentle smile*

  • Herm

    No regrets!

  • That depends entirely on what you consider normal and abnormal. Sometimes genetic mutations appear to be without purpose or useful function (benign or worse), and sometimes a species incorporates them into its makeup. There’s some evidence that homosexuality, although itself not suited toward breeding, somehow actually increases the likelihood of same generation siblings to successfully have offspring. The siblings of a gay person statistically have a higher chance of having children than the siblings of a straight person. How? Why? No idea.

    Other data suggests that homosexuality is a defensive adaptation of some form, perhaps to avoid swamping the breeding pool (which increases the chances of inbreeding). The likelihood of each offspring being gay statistically increases with each successive child.

    Intersex states could be a mutation which serves some larger purpose to our species. We lack the vision to do much more than count the corollary data.

  • LadySunami

    I believe I already covered this,

    If a person is a woman then as her sex organs belong to her they are a woman’s sex organs.

    If woman has a penis then said penis is a woman’s sex organ on account of it being hers.

    I realize you are upset by people having multiple sets of sex organs for some reason, but humans are not dogs and you can’t “fix” them without their permission.

  • RonnyTX

    Benjamin,what I’m still wondering is,did God make Adam completely male to start with? Or was Adam both male and female,in the one person? And then God took the female part out of Adam and formed Eve around that? I lean more towards thinking that way is right,after doing some online reading about such,over the last few years. Just wish I’d kept up with where those articles were,where I did read about such. But whichever way it is on this,God is still in full control of all things,so it’s God who decides who will be male,female,intersex,etc?

  • DrewTwoFish

    Isn’t it nice that the you regard the intersexed as not sinning by simply existing! Do you feel the same way about gay people? Transgendered individuals?

  • DrewTwoFish

    Marry me.

  • RonnyTX

    David,is it your belief that God is not in full control of all things? If that is your belief,then please tell me what/who you believe is stronger than God?

    As for the gay part,I’m gay. And I was born of God when I was 16 years old. In that,God,the goodness of God brought me to repentance. And in this,God never even brought up my being gay;but God did convict me of and show me the sinfullness of my selfrighteousness. Where had I got that sinful thinking from? Why from the church,that I grew up in. There where I had been taught I was better than others,who were not members of my church. The one I had been taught to believe,was the one true church of God. So you see David,there are some church traditions and teachings,that do need to be thrown out and discarded. But mostly I don’t think we will do such,till we are taught better by God. So,none of us are better than others, nor can we afford to look down on others. For where we are now,is where God had brought us and we are all still being taught and needing more teaching from God. And it’s because of that,that none of us has the right to brag or boast about or in ourselves. For all we have and are,that is all of God.

  • Herm

    Ah, but for so many years, right here in the USA, they were fixing them without their permission. JP would today as judge, jury and executioner supreme. (S)he would simply justify that any other way is just “nonsense”.

  • JD

    :-D

  • Opinion based verbal semantics and mental gymnastics by transgender ‘experts’, attempting to mutate Christianity to the godless “spirit of the age”, is largely about the “divine endorsement” of sodomy and gay marriage. Sure, we have natural born eunuch’s and transgender humans because of defective biological switching and errors. And certain fish and other creatures have the “inherent” genetically programmed capability to “naturally” change sex to ensure the “reproductive” survival of the species. In the beginning “God made then male and female”,because that is the way biology and reproduction works to ensure the survival of the species. None of the above has anything to do with the divine endorsement or “acceptance”of sodomy and the gay and lesbian lifestyle. We know this because the Bible repeatedly asserts that sodomy and same sex relationships has no place in God’s moral economy and those that engage in such activities will come under divine judgement – like it or not. And Dr Defranza and Benjamen Cory could no doubt, like myself, quote chapter and verse. As Jesus said, the day would come when false teachers and apostasy will run riot – and now is! . thegodreality.org

  • Ellen H.

    So what would you call a person born with internal female organs but outer male organs? That happens. I know someone who was born with both and assigned female, but she is not really happy as a woman because she doesn’t feel like one.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    How same sex relationships and marriage found their way into this discussion I am unclear: the point being made is that the phrase “male and female he created them” in Genesis is of no use as an argument regarding issues of (trans)gender, because in fact God does appear to have created (a small number of) people who are a bit of both physically, and mentally we are all apparently a bit mixed.
    In fact, the passage does not stand up on its own actual words as an argument, since it says “male and female he created them” not (as some seem to want to make it say) “either male or female he created them”.
    With regards to the whole transgender issue, however, the evidence cited by the post points against rather than for gender dysphoria as being “a man trapped in a woman’s body” (or vice versa): if we all have both “male” and “female” aspects of our personality, across a broad spectrum of prevalence for both men and women, if a man who is an outlier towards the more “female” end of the spectrum (at least for men) decides on that basis that he is somehow not properly a man, or that it is wrong as a man to think and feel in a particular way to such an extent he can only express parts of his personality in the persona of a woman, surely the problem is this belief (and society’s over-rigid definitions as to what is “manly” or “womanly”) not that he is physically male, and the more rational treatment response dealing with that belief rather than surgically altering him to physically appear female.
    (After all, having done so, she would now be a woman even more of an outlier towards the “male” end of the brain spectrum than she was an outlier towards the “female” end as a man – and, ironically, if not born a male in the first place, would presumably have been a prime candidate on those grounds for gender re-assignment back the other way.)

  • Alastair J Roberts

    Megan DeFranza kindly joined us on our podcast, Mere Fidelity, to introduce her book and to discuss the theological response to intersex conditions. I’ve posted the podcast here, along with my thoughts on the subject arising out of that and the wider discussions on the issue.

  • LadySunami

    Feeling male or female doesn’t have to do with one’s personality or tastes. That I enjoy video games and am working toward a degree in a STEM field doesn’t make me feel any less like a woman. Gender identity and gender performance are separate.

    I recommend reading this article by Libby Anne: What My Cisgender Children Have Taught Me About Gender Identity. It is quite relevant to this discussion, and was coincidentally posted just last week.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    “Gender identity and gender performance are separate.” Couldn’t agree more. I thought, though, that there was a little more to gender dysphoria than an entirely unfounded conviction that one was somehow “really” the other gender, or a simple burning desire to be a man instead of a woman (or vice versa). If this were the case, “treating” such a condition by surgically alteration would be spectacularly unethical, like treating someone with body integrity identify disorder who thought he would be happier blind by cutting out his eyes.
    My understanding of the justification for gender reassignment surgery was that a person with gender dismorphia had, at least in some sense, an atypically-developed brain thought (at least by those advocating the surgery) somehow and at least in some objective sense more appropriate to the other gender (or at least not properly appropriate to his/her own).

  • Haze

    Writing had most definitely been invented at the time of Moses. Even the script which became the Hebrew alphabet almost certainly predated him.

  • Haze

    I don’t really see how it matters whether intersex individuals are a result of the Fall or not, in regard to the sinfulness of being intersex. Compare my belief that I need glasses to see properly is a result of the Fall – it doesn’t follow from this that my poor eyesight makes me more sinful than anyone else, or that wearing (or not wearing) glasses is sinful.

  • Haze

    I’m on your side here as far as the actual argument goes, but belittling someone you’ve never met on the basis of poorly substantiated psychoanalysis is not exactly a mature method of argumentation either.

  • Wolf

    This isn’t about belittling; this is about responding to an argument with the respect that it is due. In this case, JP insists on acting like a child, so I am simply obliging his wishes and responding accordingly until he chooses to participate in a respectful, adult manner like everyone else.

    You may see it as crude, perhaps, but this method has been effective in the past with other people I’ve encountered who were just as entrenched as JP seems to be. Some of them genuinely don’t realize how fixated they are on sex – and when it’s pointed out to them in a whimsical way like this, I’ve seen them step back and take an honest look. Certainly, it doesn’t always work, but the humor of it has been useful in the past.

  • Cain9

    I beg you to speak to a medical doctor! and become informed.
    It is unforgivable that a Christian can be this stupid. If as Christians, we cannot be informed intellectually honest then, do not be surprised when the world laughs at you.
    This really is disappointing.
    I expect more intellectual honesty from Christians.
    God gave us brains……..use it!

  • JP

    Forget the insults and correct me with some facts.

  • Wolf

    There are plenty of facts in the article, JP. No one here is going to do your homework for you.

    If you are going to be intellectually dishonest, don’t expect any respect from people who, unlike you, are capable of actual discussion.

  • the more rational treatment response dealing with that belief

    We have tried this. It is ineffectual and results in harm. Research indicates that the problem is not entirely psychological and has a basis in neurology.

  • LadySunami

    Uh, the conviction is not unfounded. Looking at the brain structures of transgender individuals they more closely resemble those of the gender they feel they are.

    Personally I’m of the opinion there probably are some legitimate differences in the inner workings of men as opposed to women, but cultural conditioning and gender role nonsense has warped our views so thoroughly that determining which differences are real and which are invented is next to impossible.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    I read the quote about brain gender from Dr Hines above, and it was my understanding that the neurological differences were about the degree to which the brain in transgender people had more “female” characteristics than was commonly the case in the “typical” male brain (in so far as there is such a thing) or vice versa.
    My concern was that though the belief the person had that they were “really” the other gender derived from the awareness of their atypical thought processes compared with other men / women, and this difference was a genuine neurological difference, it still didn’t mean that the person’s brain was in any sense actually neurologically a differential gender from their body and “curing” the problem through drastic and potentially dangerous surgery as if it was purely because the patient could not be convinced otherwise seems at best a counsel of utter despair.

  • SamHamilton

    This is one of those times when it’s important to separate L&G issues from T&I issues. When people bring up that verse in Genesis in the context of debates about gay relationships they’re talking about male-femaie complementarity and the lack of complementarity in male-male/female-female relationships. I don’t think they’re also saying that God only makes people male and female and completely negating the fact that some small percentage of people are intersex. Whether or not there’s a third sex doesn’t have anything to do with the original discussion about complementarity.

  • RavenGirl

    trolls repent!! .. lol

  • Fulgentian

    Isn’t it more about the clear idea running through the whole Bible that the family, with heterosexual parents, is what God desires for humanity?

  • Multiple neuroscientists, looking at different structures of the brain, have found that the brains of transgender people physically resemble those of the sex they identify as, rather than the sex they were assigned at birth. Inasmuch as we understand the physiology of the brain, it stands to reason that the difference is rooted in biology, not psychology.

    Not that it makes much difference to me, as someone whose background is in psychology. I would simply refer objectors to the myriad of psychology organizations who have logged ardent protests against the ineffectualness and harm caused by attempts to reconcile transgender people with the sex they were assigned at birth.

  • LadySunami

    Why assume they are defective? Most intersex individuals can function just fine.

  • Rathje

    I’ve got a learning disability as it so happens.

    I function just fine despite that.

    But it’s still a defect, and I’m fine calling a spade a spade.

  • LadySunami

    I have dyslexia. I don’t consider it a defect, simply a difference. After all, it may give me spelling troubles but because of it my spacial perception is much improved.

  • “Different” is not “defective.”

  • Rathje

    The word “defect” would have been better than “defective.”

    “Defect” would be limited to the trait we are talking about – “defective” can be easily construed as implying people with the defect are defective as human beings in general. Which is more than I want to claim.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    The whole thing is fascinating. I have had a look at this website http://aebrain.blogspot.co.uk/p/transsexual-and-intersex-gender-identity.html?m=1 for a run-down of the neurological studies and it seems to me that the problem is the insistence that someone has to be either male or female as a complete package when a transgender brain is neurologically either (depending on how you look at it) neither or a bit of both.

  • Iain Lovejoy

    Bluntly, no.

    Matthew 19:10:

    For there are some eunuchs, who were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, who were made eunuchs of men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

    Paul was also celibate for the church’s sake and many, many people have quite a different vocation than to raise a family.

    Obviously, most people will do so and this is a great thing since there would be nobody left if they didn’t, but this does not mean squashing everyone into the same cookie-cutter mould when there are se individuals (like Paul) for whom something else is obviously intended.

    What that something else is, and whether the current vogue for e.g. surgery for transgender people is a good thing, is another matter.

  • RonnyTX

    Seems to me,that a lot of the Old Testament male saints thought that the ideal was one male/husband with 2 or more wives. And sometimes,a lot more than two.

  • Callista Graves

    Please tell me, in your own words, what sodomy is, according to the bible.

  • Callista Graves

    And people like you are the reason I am no longer a Christian.

  • toddh

    When I go back and read Genesis 1-2, I don’t see “male and female” as a club to beat people over the head with until they conform to that pattern. It seems more like a general description, and as such, it fits. But I think our problem comes in imagining that that general descriptive term is meant to fit every single variation that’s out there, when it’s clearly not.

  • Larski1010

    Have I been misinterpreting this “male and female” statement? My understanding is that we are all a blend of both, the only difference being in the relative balance. For me this is a non-issue.

  • All that comes into my mind is Mark 12:25.

    For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

    There are those who have interpreted this to mean that angels, and therefore the risen, will be neither male or female. That’s only one way of interpreting it, though…

  • Realist1234

    As well as missing the point that male/female describes the complimentary nature of mankind (as well as the necessity for reproduction of the human race), you’ve also missed the point that when God made mankind, it was before the ‘fall’. Everything God viewed as ‘good’ including the nature of man. It is not therefore surprising that the physical nature of man/woman has been affected down the centuries.

  • Realist1234

    Sorry but you sound like those deaf people who view deafness as a way of life (and refuse their deaf children cochlear implants), rather than recognising the defective hearing mechanism that has caused their deafness. If God viewed, for example, someone being unable to walk as just ‘different’, Jesus would not have healed the lame.

  • Realist1234

    Agreed. There is a failure on the part of many Christians in appreciating how fallen this world is. They dont want to accept the whole picture of creation, and the fact that God is going to recreate the whole cosmos one day, back to its original glory (and more so).

  • Realist1234

    The only reason you should ever leave your faith is because you have decided that Jesus is not who He claims to be, not the beliefs of other Christians. Jesus still waits for you.

  • Realist1234

    God is in control of all, but that does not mean that everything that happens is God’s ‘will’. For example, disease is not God’s will otherwise Jesus would not have healed anyone. Yet disease is rife. Man routinely goes against God’s will, asserting his own freedom to choose good or evil. Many books have been written on the subject so I dont have any easy answers, but ultimately God is in control but He allows a hell of alot of evil to happen, but one day He will renew everything and all of that will be a distant memory.

  • Realist1234

    I think youll find most Christians dont actually believe the things you’ve said they believe. Youve been watching too much Bill Maher etc.

  • Realist1234

    I dont think Hinchsense was saying being intersex was sinful, but rather one of the many effects of a now far from perfect world, which includes your eyesight.

  • LadySunami

    That’s really not the same thing at all. Despite supposed common knowledge, the deaf don’t actually see that big of an improvement in their other senses (At the very least, they don’t see an improvement that is in any way proportional to their complete deafness). By comparison, the workings of my dyslexic brain has helped me out a great deal when it comes to my ability to visualize and understand the sciences, particularly chemistry. (Relevant Article).

    There is also the fact that the deaf can’t hear period, whereas I can obviously read and spell. If I couldn’t we wouldn’t even be having this text based conversation!

  • Lois Simmons

    I have briefly discussed this post and posted a link to it on my personal blog, “Being Christian and Transsexual: Life on Planet Mercury” (ts4jc.wordpress.com). I am also referring to it on my LinkedIn page. I am promoting this blog post because it is encouraging when cisgender Christian theologians and Bible scholars “get it” regarding issues like Intersex and Transgender.

  • The Biblical definition of Sodomy is best expressed in the legal definition: “Anal or oral intercourse between human beings, or any sexual relations between a human being and an animal, the act of which may be punishable as a criminal offense.” .

  • Tim

    Yes, God made them male AND female, not male OR female…

  • 100% agree, i think the mistake of David was saying “IS is not necessarily as God wants it to be” he should says what you just write .-God is in control of all, but that does not mean that everything that happens is God’s ‘will’ that will be more Accurate.

  • Its in the NT, that should be enough for believers. Its not confusing, its very clear. Only those who are trying to justify sexual relations condemned by God (and therefore Jesus) are attempting to make it confusing.

  • Édi Baba

    Oh my Dear, an idea left out of the story of creation (Genesis). Creation of the Angels. The Angels are neither male nor female. If that is true. God can create a third gender as well.

  • Elise Nyhuis

    Few tips on intersex people:
    1. We are not a third gender, intersex people have mixed sex characteristics. Mystifying our natural state of being only encourages medical maltreatment.
    2. Intersex is not trans.
    3. Most trauma caused to intersex people is due to gender normalizing surgery, most done with none or nominal consent.
    4. Intersexed bodies are a natural chromosomal mutation.
    5. Advocacy for intersex people remains the struggle for body autonomy aka the decision to decide or be comfortable with our desired gender.
    Please read many of the amazing resources online about intersex people, and assuage your ignorance.
    Also read Galatians 3:28 in a new light, peace x

  • Ruben Ponce

    All nonsense, this is only another lie from satan trying to destroy humanity(GOD’s creation). Eunuchs were people who dedicated their lives to the service of their masters(as slaves were legal in the old and new testament) pretty much like nuns do in this age. Any growth or appendages on a body does not make a person intersex, its just that, an appendage or growth that will serve no purpose and have no functionality. Its no different than having an extra stump as a sixth finger or a deformed ear lobe that will not serve as an hearing aide.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Angels are not humans

  • How about having XX chromosomes, but looking male in all respects on the exterior surface, despite having ovaries which produce immature sperm cells?

  • Jeff Preuss

    “All nonsense, this is only another lie from satan trying to destroy humanity(GOD’s creation).”

    Intersex people have been scientifically, objectively, genetically proven to exist. They are humans, just as you are, and they possess imago dei. You are calling another part of God’s creation a lie, because it doesn’t fit into the box you think it should.

    Your refusal to accept that is what is nonsense.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Those with xx chromosomes and look male have altered their looks by cutting their hair and taking hormones, they don’t look male during infancy or or preteen.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense, they can fool some of the people some of the times, but they can’t fool all the people all time.

  • Jeff Preuss

    That cliche doesn’t even make sense as a response to me. That you won’t accept objective fact is nonsense. There’s clearly no legitimate discussion to be had with you.

  • No alteration is necessary for a body to develop with the characteristics of a different sex. I was referring specifically to a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia. Another notable condition is complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, which results in an XY chromosome person who physically resembles a female, but who have internal testes. 5-alpha-reductase deficiency is another condition which results in genetically male people with female characteristics. Persistent Müllerian duct syndrome results in a person who is genetically male, looks male, but has a uterus and fallopian tubes.

    All these conditions exist under the intersex umbrella.

  • *Headshake* I knew authoritarians had a tendency to latch onto slogans, maxims and witticisms, but never to the point of using one which is irrelevant to the plain facts, usually just compartmentalized for the sake of feel-good arguments (which sometimes contradict themselves – for example, an authoritarian will agree with “birds of a feather flock together,” but will also agree with “opposites attract,” despite these sentiments having opposite meanings).

  • Jeff Preuss

    “you win some, you lose some”

  • “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.”

  • Speaking of puberty? Some children with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency resemble a female in all respects on the exterior, but during puberty when they get a surge of hormones which were previously blocked by this mutation, they will spontaneously develop a penis. This is more common among the Dominican Republic, where children with this mutation are often raised as girls, but identify as boys (and then abruptly “become” boys in their early teens).

  • Ruben Ponce

    You are right, there’s clearly nothing to discuss. GOD is not in Heaven playing lets make a deal, GOD is in Heaven saying, this is the deal, HE made them male and female

  • So why does God occasionally make a person with both a penis and a uterus?

  • Ruben Ponce

    The flock have both male and females

  • Your reading comprehension is really bad…

  • Jeff Preuss

    HE also made some in-between. I’m glad we’re in agreement.

    EDIT to add a refresher from the text of the blog itself, the blog to which you’ve posted your comments:
    “If you’re among those who casually throws out the phrase God made them male and female” as if that’s all God made, and as if all of our gender discussions can fit neatly inside certainScreenshot 2015-08-21 11.28.45 boxes, I’d invite you to consider that gender is an issue with more complexity than we often realize or admit.”

    You can stick your thumbs in your ears, close your eyes, and wish away the existence of others who don’t fit into your tidy boxes all you want, but the second you open your eyes and ears, they’re there for you to see and hear again. Jesus said something about the way you treat the “least of these,” and if you’re denying the existence of these people, well, that’s about as “least” as you can get.

  • Ruben Ponce

    HE does not. But after birth satan creeps in to destroy what GOD has created by confusing their minds into thinking you’re the opposite sex. Satan is the master of confusion.

  • How can you be confused into thinking you’re a male with a uterus when you physically have a uterus?

  • Jeff Preuss

    Ahhhhh, you’re confusing transgender people with intersex people. Look them up — they’re two distinctly different groups of people.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Did you just say they were boys to begin with ? But resemble a female on the exterior, then devolope a penis. Thats because they were boys all along to begin with. Don’t judge a book by its cover

  • Ruben Ponce

    Don’t judge a book by its cover. Whether she’s ugly or he’s handsome. Only women can get pregnant. So if she’s carrying, rest assure she is a female. She may not be the prettiest but she is a woman from birth.

  • You’re the one claiming that intersex conditions are a lie propagated by Satan. I’m simply pointing out that intersex conditions are not a matter of opinion — they exist.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Ahhh, only females can get pregnant.So if she can get pregnant, she is a female from birth.

  • It has nothing to do with attractiveness. Sometimes women have a penis. Sometimes men have a vagina. It’s a fact of nature. If you can accept that, then accept that sometimes the differences are internal. Sometimes a man has a womb, sometimes a woman has testes.

    And if you can accept that, then accept that the brain is no different.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Yes, Im saying its a lie from satan, they don’t exist, all it is, is an appendage, not a penis.

  • Ruben Ponce

    No such thing. Its a lie from satan.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If you have uterus then you’re a female, if you still think you’re a man, thats being confused.

  • Ruben Ponce

    A man getting pregnant ? Looks like you’ve been watching “Jr”.

  • It’s not a matter of opinion.

  • He had to have a hysterectomy, due to the presence of a uterus and fallopian tubes, but he has XY chromosomes and most other male sexual characteristics, including functional testes.

    So yes, in all regards, he is a male who could, through assisted insemination and a cesarean section, could potentially get pregnant and give birth.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Its not an opinion, its a fact, GOD is infalliable. GOD does not say opps, : I meant to make you a woman buy you came out a man, sort of. :

  • Jeff Preuss

    And another non-answer to a comment from me…

  • Ruben Ponce

    If God was still making people there would be no children with defects of any kind. Exodus ch4:11. “Who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind”.

  • I mean the fact that people come out with mixed and matched biology is a fact. And sometimes that includes the physical structure of the brain, which likely plays a role in self-perception.

  • You read a passage which is God boasting that people are born mute, deaf, or blind, and your interpretation is that God never makes people that way?

  • Ruben Ponce

    You are not understanding or don’t want to. The Bible passage says GOD makes the deaf, mute, blind. And those can be either male or female.

  • I’m certainly not understanding, since your explanation of the text is the opposite of what the text says. If God makes people blind, deaf, or mute, then who are you to say that God never makes people intersex?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Because GOD makes everything for a purpose, and HE does not make intersex because that serves no purpose.

  • So you think being blind, deaf, or mute serves a purpose — but not something which is supported by scripture such as Matthew 22:30, Mark 12:25 and especially Galatians 3:28?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thats not me saying that, Im just reading what GOD said to Moses, but concerning the scriptures you wrote, what have those to do with intersex ? What JESUS is saying is that when resurrected there is no sex in Heaven.

  • If there is no male nor female, then it stands to reason that we shouldn’t be hung up on whether a person is male or female on Earth. Let people identify as they will, because it ultimately doesn’t matter, does it?

  • Ruben Ponce – I exist. I have the 3BHSD form of CAH. Meaning that I looked mostly male at birth, but changed later in life to look mostly female.

    Whether this was a consequence of the Fall, or whether it was so the works of God might be displayed in me is beyond my paygrade. But to say that I don’t exist is just a bit silly, don’t you think?

    Perhaps if you studied biology a bit more, your views and interpretations of Scripture might change. Scripture is immutable, but the interpretation of it is Man’s work, not God’s. Do not worship a book, a thing made by men, and call it infallible, for that is idolatory. No different from worshipping a graven image.

  • An even better site is http://www.cakeworld.info/transsexualism/what-causes

    My own site’s only virtue is that it was the first compendium of scientific papers on the subject. Others have taken the work further.

  • An easy one, the sin of Sodom is explained explicitly in Scripture.

    Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares, “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me…” The Hebrew word translated “detestable” refers to something that is morally disgust.

    Lack of charity.

  • Two Intersex people in Australia discuss this issue on National TV.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vMguOwvImDU

  • Ruben Ponce

    Again you are shallow in understanding or refuse to know the truth. On the scriptures you posted, a question was asked to JESUS about whose wife she would be, because she married seven times. JESUS answer was “there is no marraige of humans in Heaven and no sexual intercourse.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You were born a male or female. Not all females are beautiful. And not all males are handsome. You know who you are as you were growing up. Your genitalia told you that, the other (if you had two) was just an appendage that served no purpose ( and should have it removed if you choose).

  • Ruben Ponce

    The scripture you just posted in Ezekiel is refering to the prophets of Israel that spread lies and made Israel fall into harlotry (harlotry meaning sexual perversion). Sodom is also mentioned because of the same sexual perversion ( in this case homosexuality) that GOD had to rain fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah and obliterated those two cities.

  • Ruben Ponce

    This scripture in Ezekiel is refering to the false prophets in Israel spreading false teachings and caused Israel to fall into harlotry (harlotry meaning sexual immorality). It mentioned Sodom because also of its sexual immorality (in this case homosexuality) that GOD rained fire and brimstone and totally obliterated that city along with Gomorrah.

  • Ruben Ponce

    They are not intersex, they are people born with an appendage of whatever organ or member ( extra limb) on their body and it serves no functionality or porpose. The chromosomes in their body dictates their sexual gender, XX or XY.

  • That would certainly answer Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25, but I was more specifically invoking Galatians 3:28.

  • I think it’s interesting that taking this logic to its natural conclusion, you would wind up telling a person who looks female, was raised female, thinks they’re female… that they’re actually a male.

    Which would make them transgender.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Galatians 3:28 is saying we are all one in CHRIST if we believe in HIM. CHRIST came to the jews (HE came to HIS own but HIS own believed HIM not). After HIS death, that opened the doors of Heaven for all the believeth on HIM, and all who believe in HIM should be as one in HIM, much like the Trinity, GOD the father, GOD the son and GOD the Holy Spirit, all three-in-one.

  • I see by your use of capitalization that it is very important that a penis be a penis when you think someone is a man and be nothing more than an appendage when you think someone is a woman.

  • Bones

    God made intersex people to give you one more thing to hate.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I don’t hate people. I hate what they do. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

  • Bones

    Nonsense.

    It’s love the sinner hate YOUR OWN sin.

    And intersex people aren’t even sinning.

  • Ruben Ponce

    All are sinners including you and I. When a person changes his/her gender medically or chemically from what GOD made them to be, then thats a sin.

  • You obviously haven’t studfied the original Jewish texts,

    “The prophet’s description combined with what the Torah reveals to us
    gives us the following picture: the people of Sodom insisted on
    preserving their high quality of living to such an extent that they
    established a principle not to let the poor and homeless
    reside in their city. Consequently when a destitute person would come
    seeking help, they would revoke his right to any welfare–public or
    private! By doing this they figured they would preserve an elite upper
    class community who would monopolize the profits that the bountiful land
    offers without having to distribute any revenues to a “lower class” of
    people.”

    There are many parables in Hebrew texts about Sodom. The words in Ezekile say what they say, explicitly.

  • Chromosomes don’t infallibly determine sex.

    Counterexample: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9

    A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.

    There are over half a million men in the USA who don’t have XY chromosomes.

    As I’m one of the people in that video, your arrogant and ignorant assertion about my anatomy, besides being false, means you’re a common or garden troll, right?

  • Bones

    Says who?

    Nothing sinful about that.

    You’re just making it up.

  • Bones

    Some education for you.

    What sex is someone born with a vagina, partially descended testes, XY chromosomes and no womb or ovaries????

    What a horrible sinner! God must really hate her/him.

    Male or female? Babies born on the sliding sex scale

    http://www.bbc.com/news/health-14459843

  • Bones

    As a fellow Aussie I’m curious as to how you get treated in Australia.

    I notice our right wingers haven’t touched this issue yet.

    And I doubt they will.

  • “Your genitalia told you that, the other (if you had two) was just an
    appendage that served no purpose ( and should have it removed if you
    choose).”

    Just one set. It changed shape though.

    To see the kind of thing that happens in the similar syndrome, 5ARD, see

    http://www.usrf.org/news/010308-guevedoces.html

    There are pictures there.

    3BHSD is sorta similar, but runs in reverse, and is not as complete. I never looked nearly as male as the “after” photos even before the change.

    Please study biology a bit more. Reality doesn’t say what you think it must say.

  • Nope. You haven’t taken into account the many, many stories in Jewish Tradition, the Talmud and Mishnas, which clarify that the words in Ezekiel mean exactly what they say they mean.

    the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of
    their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the
    Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they
    had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with
    others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise
    them for their arrogance…

    Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5

    The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the Holy
    One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them…They said: Since there
    cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why
    should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth.
    Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land…

    There were four judges in Sodom named Shakrai (Liar), Shakurai (Awful
    Liar), Zayyafi (Forger), and Mazle Dina (Perverter of Justice). Now if a
    man assaulted his neighbour’s wife and bruised her, they would say to the
    husband, Give her to him, that she may become pregnant for thee. If one
    cut off the ear of his neighbour’s ass, they would order, Give it to him
    until it grows again.

    If one wounded his neighbour they would say to the victim, Give him a fee
    for bleeding thee [bloodletting was sometimes considered medically
    beneficial in those days; Here the Sodomite judge cruelly ruled that if
    one beats you until you bleed, you owe your attacker money for this
    “beneficial” medical service”…]

    … they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long
    they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched
    him out…

    If a poor man happened to come there, every resident gave him a denar
    [coin], upon which he wrote his name, but no bread was given [the store
    owners recognized such coins, and refused toa accept them]. When he died,
    each came and took back his (denar)…

    A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, hiding it in a pitcher.
    On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her
    on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it
    is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it
    is great (rabbah): whereupon Rab Judah commented in Rab’s name: on
    account of the maiden (ribah).

    Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a

    Said R Levi, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice
    for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. There was the case
    of two girls, who went down to draw water from the well. One said to her
    friend, Why are you pale? The other said, All the food is gone from our
    house and we are ready to die. What did the other do? She filled the
    jug with flour and exchanged it for her own. Each took the one of the
    other. When the Sodomites found out about it, they took the girl (who
    had shared the food) and burned her. Said the Holy One, blessed be He,
    Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain
    girl will not allow me to keep silent. What is written is not, ‘In
    accord with their cry’, but, ‘according to her cry’, referring in
    particular to the girl.

    Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 49:6

    etc etc.

  • Bones

    Thanks for that.

    Good research.

  • Two incidents of battery by the Exclusive Brethren and a Catholic SSPX offshoot many years ago, one half-hearted arson attack at 2am that only burnt our fence and garbage bin by “persons unknown” with absolutely no connection whatsoever to Hillsong ministries, and no imputation should be drawn that they did.

    Basically, even the Zealots are pretty sane here. That may change, the ACL is heavily influenced by their US financiers. The first part of the Safe Schools program to be axed was the educational section on Intersex.

  • I had to feel sorry for the SSPX people. The “battery” was just attempting to destroy my Earthly form with Holy Water, Bell, Book, and Candle. They were most nonplussed when it didn’t work, and then we were able to talk.

  • I’d never met anyone who actually believed in a stationary Earth, with the Sun rotating around it before. It was an educational experience, and after the initial dousing and a bit of a rocky start, a fairly friendly one.

  • Thank you. I hope it was helpful.

    It’s not that this is controversial amongst biblical scholars – but it’s certainly not publicised much. It’s unfashionable at present. To many, scripture begins and ends with the KJV 1610 version. And even then, they elide the apocrypha, and omit the introduction by the authors specifically disclaiming it as the complete, infallible and final word of G_d. They express a hope that it will be a good stepping-stone for further, improved versions.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There is only one reason why GOD destroyed Sodom, HE rained fire and brimstone down on them.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Say GOD. Its written in HIS word, the Bible.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Sure it does. Any abnormality in the chromosomes usually results in mentality challenged.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense, XX or XY. Any other missing or abnormalities in chromosomes will result in mentality challanged people. Any other grow member on the body is an appendage serving no purpose.

  • .. They tried to exorcise you?

  • I don’t think it’s the people with unusual chromosome arrangements who are the ones with a challenge in their mentality, given how ardently, arrogantly, ignorantly and short-sightedly you are arguing the point. There is a lot to learn in this world, but only if you have the ears to hear.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There is only one Way and one Truth and that you find only in the Holy Bible. And according to it, two angels went to Sodom to pull Lot (Abraham’s nephew) out because HE was going to destroy it because of its wickedness and abomination and full of homosexualism. The men of Sodom went to Lot’s house to ask for the men (they did not know they were angels, for they went as human form) to bring them out to have sex with them. Lot offered the men his two virgin daughters instead but they refused and wanted the men (angels) instead. GOD obliterated that city after the angels got Lot and his family out to safety. Genesis ch. 18 and 19.

  • That is a common religious belief, even though not exactly true. As in

    this discussion before an Australian Senate panel, on why Intersex people are not permitted to marry anyone of any sex in Australia, their children not permitted to have married parents.

    Senator PRATT: But what if someone is of indeterminate gender? I
    am unclear whether they should have the right, according to the way you would argue it, to be part of such a union.

    Mr Meney : People suffering from Turner syndrome, Klinefelter
    syndrome and things of that ilk are typically infertile or regarded as
    being mentally handicapped in some way. Many things about marriage require people to have the capacity to consent to what marriage is all about, so a significant mental incapacity might be something that might mitigate against a person being able to consent to a contract of marriage. But that is true of any marriage.

    Mr Meney is the Director of the Life, Marriage & Family Centre,
    Catholic Archdiocese of Sydney, and speaking in his official capacity.

    Facts:

    Although they are not mentally retarded, most XXY males have some
    degree of language impairment. As children, they often learn to speak much later than do other children and may have difficulty learning to read and write.
    — Understanding Klinefelter Syndrome — National Institute of Child Health and Human Development.

    Mental retardation is not a feature of Turner syndrome, despite
    such claims in older medical textbooks. Thorough psychological studies show that these women are normal intellectually, but often have a characteristic pattern of intellectual functioning. While their verbal 10 usually is average or above, their non-verbal IQ may be considerably lower because of problems visualizing objects in relation to each other.
    This difficulty may show up in poor performance in math, geometry, and tasks requiring manual dexterity or sense of direction.
    – Turner Syndrome — Human Growth Foundation.

    So yes, they’re “widely regarded” as being mentally handicapped in some way, even though they’re not. A very cunning remark on Mr Meney’s part, very carefully thought out. Sly, in fact.

  • Yes, of course. They believe that Intersex people are literally the spawn of Satan and/or the product of un-natural congress with demons and/or Nephilim. From their viewpoint, it was a brave and moral thing to do.

    And they used Holy Water not gasoline, as some have done in the past.

    It was quite the fashion some time ago, and still is to some extent, to exorcise Trans people too.

    See http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Rogue%20Theories/Rogue%20Theories.html

    The idea is that It’s caused by “evil spirits” (aka
    “possession by the devil”), and is curable by exorcism:
    (Barlow, Abel, Blanchard, 1977)
    Proclaimed by psychiatrists David H. Barlow, Gene G. Abel and Edward B. Blanchard, in an article entitled
    “Gender Identity Change in a Transsexual: An Exorcism” published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior in 1977 (the Journal of theInternational Academy of Sex Research (IASR), the sex-research-clique later dominated by Bailey,Blanchard,Lawrence,Zucker,LeVay, et al).

    This paper is illustrative of the emotional torture and scientific defamation of trans women by superstitious
    psychiatrists during the 1970’s. These psychiatrists proclaimed to have scientifically documented a reversal of transsexualism in a clinical subject following an exorcism of “evil spirits,” and they include detailed “scientific measurements” of the before/after effects of the exorcism. They claimed “this case, and other recent developments, suggests a reexamination of the
    possibilities of psychosocial intervention to modify atypical gender identity,” adding fuel to the fire (which is still burning) of psychiatric entrapment and forced
    reversions of gender transitioners.

    Colorado GOP State Representative Gordon Klingenschmitt in his popular religious TV channel claims to be able to “discern the spirit” of rape in Trans people. Those who are Intersex are so morally corrupt that their inherent evil is reflected in their perverted bodies, or at least, that’s the claim. He won his electoral contest with over 60% of the vote too. A lot of conservative religious people agree with him.

    I know this might come as a surprise to you.

    I’m constantly amazed at how little cis-sexual and intra-sexual (ie not Trans- and not Inter- sex) know about the crap we have to endure. To us this is just part of our normal life. Yet unless we provide citations and evidence, there’s a real credibility problem when we give our narratives.

    You can see why we might be a little less tolerant of religious zealotry than we might be. A failing on our part.

    It’s worse in many parts of Africa. There, it’s not just Christian Zealots using gasoline not Holy Water, it’s traditional practitioners who see us as a valuable resource for parts to make traditional medicines and fetishes.

  • I suppose the biggest surprise is that I can still be surprised. Even as someone under the trans umbrella who pretty obviously doesn’t match society’s recommended gender presentation, I know I’m sheltered by living in a community that is relatively liberal. The worst I’ve had to deal with is a bit of street harassment, and one run-in with a politician who will probably never hold office (thankfully — the man is a good candidate for schizophrenia).

  • See also Judges 19 on the subject. The custom was widespread.

    Romans 1 shows you the dangers of worshipping as infallible anything man-made, be it a book or a statue.

    Romans 2 shows the dangers of criticising such idolatory if you yourself show the same heartlessness and judgementalism.

    Perhaps you should read both, then 1 Corinthians 13, as well as a good biology text. Just a thought mind you.

  • I can’t claim credit for being gender nonconforming. I have a high Internet profile, am politically active, but in terms of personal appearance, rather boring. Typical frumpy middle-aged academic female tending to obesity.

    Only my medical team knows just how amazingly odd I am biologically, and that only shows up in invasive tests. My Ob/Gyn still marvels at my medical history, as externally,. I look just like my peers who have had a hysterectomy.

    If I didn’t try to help others by public activism, I could lead a more quiet life. It’s my choice not to do so, as while a single person is drowning, how can one leave the pool?

  • Bones

    Show me in the Bible where intersex is a sin.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Exactly, the Bible inJudges ch. 19 vs 22 called these men(homosexuals) perverted men.

  • Ruben Ponce

    What I said was, all are sinners, you and I included. What I also said was when a person medically or chemically uses these options to alter their gender and appearance, that is a sin

  • Bones

    Says who?

    You’re making crap up.

    There is absolutely nothing in the Bible about what you’re blabbing about.

  • Bones

    A person with CAIS has XY chromosomes, no penis, a vagina and testes for ovaries and no uterus.

    Are you saying the vagina is an appendage?

    You are ignorant of basic anatomy let alone common sense.

  • Bones

    Unfortunately there is no chromosomal disorder for being an arsehole.

    In this case the cause is religion.

  • I never fail to appreciate how quickly “we are all sinners” turns into “and this is why you’re an especially bad one!”

    You’re failing to acknowledge that a person doesn’t medically or chemically alter themselves to become intersex. You keep trying to conflate it with being transgender. The two are not remotely the same thing.

  • Potentially a very bad case of authoritarianism too. It’s hard to say, since he’s so unintelligent (willfully or by nature, I can’t tell which). It’s like dealing with a badly written program–

    10 PRINT ARGUMENT
    20 GOTO 10

    He just keeps looping back to his original point, ignoring the refutations already made several times over, failing to acknowledge any input.

  • Bones

    That’s disgraceful and shameful.

  • Jeff Preuss

    The willful, belligerent ignorance is somewhat awe-inspiring in this case. One wonders how one can survive with this much intentional stupidity.

  • Ruben Ponce

    What Im saying is you are either a male or female at birth. What ever appendage you have at birth can be removed, but you are either XX or XY. And to try and alter your appearance to be other than what your chromosomes says at birth is a sin.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense, its either XX or XY.

  • Ruben Ponce

    We call it religion for the sake of people who don’t know who GOD is. But those of us who do know, we have a personal relationship with HIM.

  • Bones

    Is the vagina an appendage?

    CAIS PEOPLE have xy chromosomes, a vagina and no penis.

    Darn sinners.

  • Bones

    The Bible does not say it is a sin.

    You are making shit up.

  • Bones

    Yes XY with a vagina and no penis….

    It’s called CAIS.

  • Bones

    You don’t know God.

    And your comments show that your religion is made up rules and ignorance.

  • Bones

    So you’re an arsehole because of your religion.

    Your mantra for your hatred of intersex people who have done nothing wrong, never hurt anyone, and been created in God’s image is based on that.

    The only thing satanic here are the likes of you.

  • Yes, so you keep wrongly repeating.

  • Er.. have you read Judges 19?

    22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial,
    beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the
    master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came
    into thine house, that we may know him.

    23 And the man, the
    master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my
    brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is
    come into mine house, do not this folly.

    24 Behold, here is my
    daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and
    humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto
    this man do not so vile a thing.

    25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

    26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light.

    27 And her lord rose up
    in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go
    his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the
    door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

    28 And he said unto her,
    Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up
    upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

    29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife,
    and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her
    bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

  • Bones

    A hideous story…..

    Since when do homosexuals rape women?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Xy ? Then he is male.

  • Bones

    She is male when she was born without a penis and has a vagina?

    “(CAIS) is a condition that results in the complete inability of the cell to respond to androgens.[1][2][3] The unresponsiveness of the cell to the presence of androgenic hormones prevents the masculinization of male genitalia in the developing fetus, as well as the development of male secondary sexual characteristics at puberty, but does not significantly impair female genital or sexual development.[3][4] As such, the insensitivity to androgens is only clinically significant when it occurs in genetic males (i.e. individuals with a Y chromosome, or more specifically, an SRY gene).[1] All affected individuals are phenotypically female; they develop a normal female habitus, despite the presence of a Y chromosome.[1][5][6][7][8][9]”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

    In the article I quoted before a woman didn’t even know she had XY chromosomes until she had unrelated tests.

    I actually don’t think it’s yours or anyone’s business.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Ch. 22. That we may: know him: They’re talking about having sex with him, men with men. Thats what the old man of the house meant when he told them in ch.23 “do not so wickedly”.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Have you ever heard homosexuals women (lesbian) having sex with men, why will it not go the other way also ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    No its not anybody’s business. But just a thought, in the garden of Eden, GOD made them male and female, nothing inbetween.

  • Little tip for you since you missed the entirety of sociological, criminal, and psychological development from the past 50 years:

    People don’t rape because they’re sexually interested in the victim.

  • Jeff Preuss

    …argues using scientific designations XX and XY, while completely ignoring actual scientific data that proves the existence of other iterations of the chromosomal makeup…

  • ALX99999

    Sorry for the intrusion but Im reading your comment archive, you are my new hero!!!

  • ALX99999

    I read the dawn of moralising religion happened during technological and social upheavals around 2500 years ago, before which gods tended to be more, shall we say, unenthusiastic about piety, celebecy and poverty.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Depends on the rapist. Some are mentaly ill.

  • Some people also think God speaks to them through the television to warn them about the Freemason Illuminati Satanic Catholic Jews.

    (And then they run for office.)

    But most rapists do so out of entitlement, control, and power.

  • Bones

    Here’s news:

    Men who rape women are not homosexual.

  • Bones

    The garden is a metaphor. It’s not real.

    I take it the Hebrews would have killed any intersex babies cos the devil and all.

  • Bones

    No.

    Can you give some examples of homosexuals raping women?

  • Bones

    Btw the real world isn’t black and white like yours apparently is. It’s 50 shades of gray.

  • Given that I’ve heard cases of straight men raping gay men and that there do exist sociopathic gay men, I wouldn’t bet that no gay man has ever raped a woman before, but I doubt women are their preferred targets.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You definitely described those people right, satanic.

  • That is indeed a reply using words.

  • Ruben Ponce

    So if the garden of Eden to you is a metaphor, then correct me if Im wrong, you are agnostic. And perhaps you can tell me which animal you come from.

  • Not believing that Genesis is a literal account of creation is not equivalent to being agnostic. Most Jews don’t believe Genesis is literal history either.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “That is indeed a reply using words.”
    Yet, amazingly, not really related to the conversational flow.

  • Bones

    Yes but that rape is nearly always about humiliating the victim eg in ancient battles losing soldiers were frequently sodomised for want of a better word.

    Our gay people over here don’t come over to my house demanding to rape my guests.

  • Bones

    Most Christians don’t accept a literal Garden of Eden. The whole story is a Jewish metaphor which differs from the Christian understanding.

    The idea that people are paying for the sins of the first humans is quite frankly absurd and unbiblical eg women are dying through childbirth because of God’s curse.

    Which animal do I come from?

    My mother………….

  • Ruben Ponce

    Most Jews, as you put it, won’t accept that JESUS has already came.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Then those Christians who don’t accept the Bible teaching on the garden of Eden, are not Christians. And if you don’t accept that sin is passed downed from Adam and Eve to all humanity, then the Bible (GOD’s written word) is not for you.

  • Yes, but this is utterly irrelevant to the point and is obviously intended as a smear against them and nothing more. Are you familiar with the reason ad hominem is a fallacy?

  • Wow, that would be a surprise to… most of the early founders of Christianity.

  • Ruben Ponce

    It won’t be a surprise to the apostle Paul who wrote most of the letters in the New Testament.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You cannot smear facts. And the facts are many Jews are still waiting on their Messiah and JESUS has already come. But we eagerly wait on HIS second coming.

  • Even Paul simply thought death was what gets passed down throughout the ages. The whole concept of original sin originated with Augustine of Hippo in the fourth century. Before that we had people like Origen who thought no such thing. And then came the Anathemas and a lot of early founders got blacklisted in favor of Augustinian teachings…

  • Your reading comprehension is really, really bad.

    But yes, the Jews continue waiting for the Messiah, since Jesus didn’t fulfill any of the prophecies and in fact contradicted at least one.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not so. Paul knew where and how death came about, for JESUS spoke directly to him, and he knew that: it is appointed for men to die once, then the judgement:. The apostle Paul wrote as the HOLY SPIRIT spoke. He learned about Adam and Eve, satan, wrote alot about sinful lifestyles, and, well the New Testament gives us an inside view of Paul’s knowledge on death and sin.

  • Ruben Ponce

    My goodness, 700 yrs. before JESUS birth, the prophet Isaiah prophesied HIM and how HE was going to get whipped and the virgin birth and a slew of prophecies. By the way,GOD never contradicts HIMSELF, you know JESUS was GOD in the flesh, a mystery that not everybody understands.

  • Paul also thought he was living in the end of times and advised people to abstain from sexual relationships if at all possible.

    Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no possessions, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.

    (Christianity: 2000 years of “any minute now!”)

  • “going to get whipped”

    You’re referencing Isaiah 53 and its reference to the suffering servant? It’s referring to Israel, the body of the Jewish people, suffering persecution. If you read more of Isaiah, there are at least ten such references to Israel as the servant of God — it is not obliquely referencing Jesus.

    Isaiah prophesied that the world would become united under Torah law and in belief of God, that the third temple would be built, all violence and strife would come to an end, and all Jews would return to Israel. As none of this happened under Jesus, he failed to fulfill the prophecies as they understood them.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense Sam, Isaiah 53 is a prophesy of JESUS CHRIST, “HE was wound and bruised for our iniquities(sin), “with HIS stripes we are healed”, ” the LORD has laid on HIM the iniquities(sins) of us all” , another reference of sin passed down to all.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not so, Sam. Paul is refering to refrain from fornication, not from due benevolence to your spouse, he did say however, not from a commandment but his opinion, if we can to remain single, for the mission of the gospel, for marraige has its obligations. Now concerning 2000 yrs of “any minute now “, do you not know that 1000 yrs is like one day for GOD. Thats not me saying this, its in your Bible.

  • No, it’s just continuing to talk about the servant continually discussed in previous chapters — the Jewish people.

    You probably think Isaiah 14 is talking about Satan, too, don’t you? -_-

  • It also says that none know the time or place, and yet we’ve had thousands of years of people predicting that it’ll be any time now. Here’s just the ones that made headlines.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Certainly in Isaiah 14:12-17 is talking about Lucifer (satan’s) fall.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Of course people are still making predictions as to when JESUS is coming, do not believe them, for Paul said HE is coming like a thief in the night. Even JESUS himself said HE nor the angels know when. That time is reserved for GOD the father only.

  • Right, that’s about what I expected.

    It’s not. It’s talking about a Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar II to be precise. “Lucifer” does not appear in the Bible at all — that was a mistranslation in the King James version. The word they translated to proper noun Lucifer in Isaiah 14 is used innocuously several times throughout the Bible, including in reference to Jesus, where he claims to be the star of the morning in Revelation 22:16.

    Englishmen! When we’re not confusing a Canaanite rain deity for a pop-culture personification of evil, we’re confusing a jolly fat man for the Buddha.

  • And Paul thought he was coming within his own lifetime. “Not one generation will have passed,” after all. A phrase that has had to be twisted again and again to justify these false prophecies of an imminent return, century after century.

    Meanwhile, Judaism says if you want the kingdom that badly, build it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Book chapter and verse on that scripture ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Wrong again Sam, Nebuchadnezzar didn’t fell from Heaven as vs 12 says, and Nebuchaddnezzar never said he wanted to ascend to the Heavens to dethrone GOD as vs 13 and 14 implies.

  • Matthew 24:34. This verse has caused such consternation among the apocalypse predictors that they have been coming up with one excuse for another as to how one generation could be thousands of years long.

  • Ha! You’re using the modern, untrue interpretation of this passage to “disprove” it! Where do you think the association with Satan as an angel that fell from Heaven came from? This passage! Prior to that, it was nothing more than a blurry association of Satan with the Canaanite deity Attar’s attempt to seize the throne of the storm god Ba’al which ended with Attar descending into the underworld to rule, a story which predated Judaism.

  • The whole context of Isaiah 14 is a condemnation of Babylon. It is followed by a condemnation of Assyria. How could you possibly get a condemnation of a supernatural being out of that?

    Israel’s geopolitical enemies are being prophesied against. Nations are being affected. There is absolutely nothing in the text that mentions Satan, Lucifer, or any other kind of spiritual being as a target of the rhetoric.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Some things have come to pass but not all, but look Sam, as you read this scripture apply it to yourself for this is GOD speaking to us every day as we read our daily verse. And as you read further down on vs 36 you will find what I said earlier as to when JESUS is coming, no one knows thats why we needs to be ready everyday until HE comes, up until we die of old age or we die before our time, for no one knows when we’re going to pass to eternity.

  • To the Jewish people, the idea of a son of god who dies, is resurrected, and will return — does not play into the prophecies in any way whatsoever. The Messiah is to be born of the line of David, and Jesus would not have been biologically related to David in any way. Trying to invoke a load of supernatural loopholes to explain things which are intended to be quite clear, a process of unambiguous national revelation, is not going to convince many Jews.

    As I said, if you want to see the kingdom, then build it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Of course it predates Judaism, this fall of Lucifer from Heaven even predates humans ( Adam and Eve). Many Bible scholars believe this happened between Genisis ch.1 vs 1and 2. Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Next vs could’ve taken thousands if not million of yrs between those two verses

  • Of course you’re a Creationist too…

  • Ruben Ponce

    You need to reread that again and ask yourself who else had fallen from Heaven, vs12, and who else had the power to ascend to Heaven vs 12, the power to ascend above the heights above the clouds vs 14, who else wanted to be GOD.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Like I said, many Jews are still waiting for their Messiahand HE has already come. And there are a slew of evidence concerning JESUS being in the lineage of King David, too many to point out, but start with Matthew 22:42, Luke 20:42, Acts2:34, 2nd Samuel 7:12. These are just a few.

  • So where is the everlasting peace? Where is the universal Torah Law?

    Oh, right. Torah Law got repealed because it was inconvenient to follow. That’s totally the right way to fulfill a prophecy!

  • Ruben Ponce

    Who else or what man could’ve created this universe?

  • I’m sure you would find my arguments as fanciful as I find yours. The fact that mine can be studied scientifically while yours will remain the domain of magic and reality warping trickster deities is unfortunately not likely to be persuasive.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There will be no peace until Christ comes again the 2nd time, this time HE is coming as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, as the Lion of Judah. We are under a new covenant (new testament).

  • I think it’s very convenient that you can decide he’s the messiah because he fulfilled the prophecies — and then dismiss any prophecies he didn’t fulfill.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Then am I right to say you have no faith ? Because faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

  • Ruben Ponce

    He fulfill some, HE will fulfill the rest on HIS 2nd coming. HIS 2nd coming is what is going to be called rapture.

  • You would not be correct. My faith embraces science, however.

  • A premillennial dispensationist? Oh, wow…

  • The Babylonians (Gen. 11:4) and the Assyrians (Isa. 10:10-11) – the same two groups of people being talked about in this stretch of Isaiah. Now I ask you, the passage says -to Isaiah- that “you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon” (Isa. 14:4)

    When did Satan become King of Babylon, and when did Isaiah prophesy to him?

    The only reason you think Satan fits this description is because of this very passage. Where’s the other passage that compares Satan to the king of Babylon and accuses him of wanting to ascend higher than God’s throne?

    Is Isaiah 16:6 talking about Satan? It talks about being proud. Satan is proud. Or is it talking about Moab? I think it’s talking about Moab, mostly because it -says- Moab. This is roughly the same reason Isaiah 14 is likely talking about the king of Babylon – because it specifically says it’s about the king of Babylon.

    Ascending to the heavens is used to talk about human hubris and rebellion, such as in Genesis 11. Job 20:4-6. The Medes are said to come “from the heavens” in Isaiah 13 (5, 17). These all come from the actual text. Couple that with the fact that Isaiah 14 directly says that this message is about the king of Babylon, and it makes it very likely this message is about the king of Babylon. Assuming we take the Bible seriously, and you do, right?

    In order for your scheme to work, Isaiah would have to stop in the -middle- of prophecies against the nations, talk about Satan for half a chapter for some reason – then go back to talking about the nations, going right into Assyria. Also, the king of Babylon would have to be an extended metaphor for Satan, which happens nowhere else. That seems implausible.

  • Ruben Ponce

    But with science you need something seen, with faith you don’t.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thats not me saying this, I read it in the Bible.

  • Kindly cite where the word “rapture” is found in the Bible.

  • Many concepts were initially theorized long before there was any means of proving their existence. We then set out and found ways to verify whether or not they existed. Sometimes they didn’t, but, surprisingly often, they did. Sometimes faith is about being willing to set aside certainty and embrace the unknown, willing to accept what is eventually unveiled. True faith shouldn’t be so delicate that scrutiny would cause it to collapse.

  • Jeff Preuss

    There is a whole host of places in the Bible into which modern Christianity has inserted Satan. Doesn’t matter that isn’t quite what the original texts say, it gives us a way to rewrite the Scriptures to give us a common foe.

    Remember, our modern (American, especially) Christianity only functions at its best when we select an “other” to rail against. We need an enemy.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There are innumerable passages in the Bible where GOD is speaking about a nation or people, then stop in the middle of the chapter and talk about a prophecy in order for us to see the big picture. One example is when GOD is cursing the devil for deceiving Eve and in the middle of the chapter HE prophecies JESUS CHRIST : Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

  • Maybe that’s why God repeats himself so often throughout the Bible — just keeps losing the thread, blurting out something random prophetic, then remembers what he was talking about and has to remind the listener that he’s back on subject again.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You need to be able to have discernment, which GOD can give you if you ask, when reading the Bible. 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

  • So what you’re saying is that someone told you it was in the Bible and therefore you looked at the passage, ignored the surrounding verses, and agreed that it is indeed in the Bible. Never mind that the word you were taught to use is never found in the Bible and the concept was largely unheard of prior to the 20th century.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I call it a miracle. When I don’t see something, I ask in faith believing that I will recieve it.

  • Ask that a mountain move from here to there. Faith as slight as a grain of mustard seed should be sufficient.

    Or better yet, ask for amputees to be healed.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There is nothing to add or subtract to the Bible. Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

  • Better start poking quite a lot of translations, then. People have been tweaking the Bible since before there was a Bible.

  • Ruben Ponce

    And even tho passages are repeated over and over, some of us still refuse to believe. HE reapeats to us like we repeat to our sons and daughters about refraining from dangerous lifestyles. Thats what I call Love. HE don’t want none of us to perish.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Many people say this verse is symbolic. Well every symbol has its meaning. What does : caught up in the air: means to you ?

  • Actually he more often repeats things like Numbers 28:1-8 repeating Exodus 29:38-46. Concern about “dangerous lifestyles”, that’s your obsession, and a mighty fine plank it is.

  • Very little, since we have since discovered that God does not reside above the clouds. But for an ancient people who once believed God lived on a mountain that only one man could touch without dying, it’s not a bad attempt at a metaphorical allusion to seeing those who were recently killed. We… do take note that this is a reassurance to those suffering under persecution that they’ll see their loved ones again, don’t we? You’re not actually thinking you’re going to go soaring into the sky and see heaven?

    Because, frankly, humanity doesn’t go to Heaven. Hence that whole bit about how there will be a new Jerusalem on Earth.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Mountain, meaning huge problems in your life. It is better to enter into Heaven maimed, than to go to hell with your whole body.

  • No, a literal mountain. Mount Sinai. Don’t tell me you missed the hilarity of the spot where Moses actually has to remind God that he can’t actually invite the elders up to see him?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Its best to stick with KJV or NKJV

  • Jeff Preuss

    You’ve already established yourself as unwilling or unable to hold an actual conversation with me (or anyone really). There is no way I’m interacting with your idiotic, self-righteous blather.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Those scriptures are a picture of JESUS Christ shedding HIS blood. Once they crucified HIM and shed HIS blood, there’s no more animal sacraficials. CHRIST was the lamb of GOD.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Oh no, people don’t go to Heaven in human form, we will be given glorified bodies. This human body we have is corrupt, born in sin. GOD resides farther than the clouds, HE resides in the 3rd Heaven.

  • Why? They’re not particularly accurate either (inserting Lucifer into Isaiah; the debacle that is the mistranslation of Numbers 11:25 (which I consider egregious because many translations would then follow the KJV’s lead and mistranslate it the same way for the next few hundred years); Acts 12:4 translates pascha as Easter when it should be Passover; the flattening of many references to sheol, Hades, Gehenna into “Hell”…
    If you want an accurate translation, it’s better to learn the original language and do it yourself.

  • As usual, your tendency to fly off onto a tangent and completely ignore the point is remarkable.

  • Of all the things people got wrong about the endless lands, the fact that there are layers to them is what came closest to the truth.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If they would’ve seen HIM, they would’ve died on the spot. They couldn’t even touch the base of the mountain, because GOD is holy

  • Ruben Ponce

    That wasn’t me just saying that, its in your Bible, read it.

  • Ignoring that this certainly contradicts all the other times people looked at God and were fine: again, not my point.

    Seriously, how do you feel you have such refined discernment when you so frequently can’t even correctly parse posts on the Internet?

  • Ruben Ponce

    The Bible had to be translated into many differet languages, for there are many in this world and salvation is for all who believes. If it were left only in the original text only the Greeks or Hebrew would know GOD.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Since the fall of man (Adam) there had to be a need to shed blood for the cleansing of sin, thats the whole purpose of JESUS to come and be hanged on the cross. HE was the final sacraficial lamb.

  • Well that totally justifies the mistranslations, both incidental and with purpose. There’s nothing I can appreciate more than the thought that everlasting torment awaits those who were misled by inaccurate text.

  • It’s okay. We know you didn’t get the joke. You can stop digging now; it won’t improve the fact of being in a hole.

  • Ruben Ponce

    1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There are only two religions that I know of that don’t believe there is a literal burning hell even tho their Bible clearly describes it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Joke ? Nothing funny living your life without CHRIST. Its a matter of life and death.

  • Leaving aside the issue of whether or not Genesis 3:15 is a prophecy about Jesus, that’s a declaration inserted into the narrative. You’re saying a totally different prophecy got dropped right in the middle of a prophecy about Babylon.

  • Do you just spout proselytization when you’re at a loss for comprehension?

  • No, it’s not. Truly, it’s not. We all go to the same place. Our conduct here matters a great deal in what that place will seem like, though.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Because you are not to read the Bible from cover to cover like you do an ordinary book, the Bible is not an ordinary book. You read the Bible in the New Testament then prove it from the Old Testament and vise versa.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If I am proselytizing, then I wish the I can reach the unreachable.

  • Ruben Ponce

    No we don’t all go to the same place. There is a Heaven and there is a hell. They tell us not to judge but allow me this one time, I don’t think Hitler is in Heaven.

  • Good luck with that. First you’ll have to answer the problem of evil though, and I don’t think there’s a theologian in all the universe who has done that without making God out to be worse for it.

  • That’s because you’re human, and limited to human concepts of time and imagination. Eternity is a long time. Anyone can change for the better when given eons and a lot of incentive to learn.

  • Bones

    Nope……that is actually dishonest and reads all sorts of things into the text that aren’t there.

    That’s why prosperity gospel peddlers have a field day twisting any verse in the Bible.

  • Bones

    After talking to you they would be unreachable.

  • Bones

    Nope…..

  • Ruben Ponce

    The problem with evil will always be here. There is no way out of evil problems in this world until CHRIST comes, but we do have a choice to do either good or evil, and as you can evidently see, many choose to do good and many choose to do evil. Evil is part of our nature since we are all born in sin, but GOD has also planted a good seed in our hearts and minds, hence your choice to choose. Those who choose evil usually abhor GOD and those that proselytize for HIM, and of course they start pointing all the bad they see(according to them) GOD had done, which is really not GOD that does this bad things but the evil one, satan.

  • Ruben Ponce

    But the time is here and now, to change and accept JESUS CHRIST as Savior and Lord. Once we die its over, your destiny has been chosen by you. You choose your destiny here and now, after death your eternity starts either in Heaven with GOD if you chose HIM or in hell if you rejected HIM.

  • But you would agree that it isn’t a good idea to take our own ideas and project them into the biblical text when those texts don’t mention that thing at all, right?

    I mean, if you were to say, “When I read Isaiah’s prophecies against Babylon, it makes me think of the spiritual struggles the kingdom of God has against spiritual evil,” ok. Everyone gets what they get out of reading the Bible, and it will mean different things to different people at different times in their lives.

    But to say that Isaiah all of a sudden -stops- talking about Babylon, -starts- talking about Satan, then -stops- talking about Satan and -starts- talking about Babylon again in a text that gives absolutely zero indication that he is switching topics and in fact is specifically addressed to “the king of Babylon,” just really strains credulity. It doesn’t sound like you are allowing the Bible to speak. You are, instead, taking your ideas about Satan and finding them in a text that doesn’t mention Satan at all.

    Apart from being bad practice in general, it hinders your ability to really hear what Isaiah is trying to say and understand the role that these nations played in the exile and deliverance of the people who belonged to Yahweh – an understanding that is vital for understanding Jesus’ ministry under the Roman Empire as well as the expectations surrounding Him. By making Isaiah randomly start talking to Satan, that passage loses all of that rich meaning and, instead, becomes a random diatribe about Satan being bad. That may speak to -your- interests, but it doesn’t speak to the interests of Isaiah or the people of God who received this.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There are more unreachable than reachable, Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Abdolutely you can’t add or subtract ideas. Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Now there is no other being in the Bible named Lucifer and no other being wanting to dethrone GOD other than satan himself.

  • If Satan has domain over Earth, it must only be because God allows him to do so, and giving people the freedom to choose wrongly and the responsibility to give up freedom is no freedom at all. Besides, there are countless ways God could be subtly improving the world without detracting from freedom of choice.

    My greatest hangup occurred when a family member died in needless agony over a very, very long period of time. At first I prayed that God would cure him. Then I prayed God would ease the pain. Then I just prayed that God would let him die. And he still lived, suffering.

    If there’s a lesson I was intended to take home from this to make it a useful experience, it doesn’t seem like it’s a positive one.

  • If Hell existed, then I would rather be there than in the presence of a being who created an eternity of suffering and expected all to abide by its existence. Would Heaven be blissful for you, knowing virtually everyone you ever knew was being ceaselessly tortured forevermore? How would anyone ever find that glorious, knowing what takes place, what never ends? I have at least some sense of empathy to the downtrodden.

    But fortunately, that’s not what happens. We all go to the same place, and it is where we all belong – because, or in spite, of who and what we are.

  • There is no being in the Bible named Lucifer at all, just as the word “rapture” never once occurs in the Bible.

  • Lucifer is not named in the Isaiah passage. That name does not appear. You are making that up because you are reading your own ideas into the text instead of letting the Bible tell you what it says.

  • That and he’s a KJV-only advocate, so likely thinks it’s due to SATANICK INFLUENCE that most of the other translations don’t include that word…

  • Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Wow, ok. Well, that explains a lot.

  • That and he’s obviously prone to starting from the conclusion and using the conclusion as part of the logic behind drawing that conclusion.

    I suspect he’d fail the authoritarian logic test.

    All fish live in the sea.
    Sharks live in the sea.
    Therefore, sharks are fish.

  • Ruben Ponce

    :giving people the freedom to choose wrongly:. But he also gives us the freedom to choose right, thats why I posted earlier we choose our own destiny. Many people get the wrong idea as to what freedom is. Freedom is not free to do whatever you want to but freedom to do the things your are suppose to do and thats to worship the CREATOR , cause thats where our freedom comes from. There are many questions that we humans don’t know the answer to but, Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so whether we die of illness, car accident, robbery, murder or any other means, we must need be ready for eternity by accepting CHRIST before we die.

  • Ruben Ponce

    But we will not know that loved one who choose hell. Thats why GOD will give us a new mind because as you said , it will not be happiness knowing a loved one who refused salvation is in hell. Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

  • Oh, the King James translation. You know, I always wonder why fundamentalists seem so drawn to a translation commissioned by a homosexual who seized control of the church with the federal government. I thought you guys were against all that stuff.

    Anyway, as I’m sure you know, there is no Lucifer in the original text. It is “helel” in the Hebrew and “eosphorus” in the Septuagint. It is exactly the same word Jesus calls himself in Revelation 22:16. I’m sure you aren’t claiming Jesus is Satan, but that’s kind of the logical conclusion of your position.

    The reason the KJV translates it Lucifer and nobody else on the planet does is because of medieval tradition around the Latin Vulgate. The word isn’t actually there in any texts, including the ones the KJV was translated from. They literally stuck that in there.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

  • You have an odd notion of freedom in which the only correct option is to give it up.

  • So you’re okay with your mind and heart being controlled so that you have no empathy whatsoever for the suffering of others? You see this as a good thing, that you will not care if people are being tortured?

  • Ruben Ponce

    If a homosexual commissioned the translation, Im sure he would ‘ve omited any reference to homosexualism as being an abomination to GOD, and as we can read there plenty of passages describing it as such. And its not only KJV but others as well.

  • Ruben Ponce

    What I said of freedom is good, why would anybody want to give up good freedom ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    My mind is not being controlled right now, and I am choosing GOD.

  • We’ve been over this. It’s a mistranslation of the Hebrew phrase helel, which simply means “shining one,” which in the Latin Vulgate was translated as lucifer (lowercase, an adjective, not a name) and the King James Version turned into the proper noun Lucifer.

  • Clearly you’re not acquainted with gay people who put on a show of hating gay people in order to convince others that they aren’t gay.

  • “You have freedom, as long as you only do one thing and one thing only, which is obey anything I tell you, believe anything I tell you, and restrict thoughts of yourself exclusively to thoughts which please me.”
    Does that sound like freedom?

  • That’s… not what I said. Not what the subject was about. Yet again, you demonstrate a total lack of reading comprehension.

  • Ruben Ponce

    It does mean shining, or brightest. That was Lucifer’s name before iniquity was found in him. You will find more about him in Ezekiel ch. 28 vs 12-17. Earlier I said he was an archangel but actually he was a cherub of GOD, perfect in wisdom and beauty.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I don’t hate people, I hate some of their lifestyles. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

  • Ruben Ponce

    GOD is not forcing anyone, and I’ll prove it to you. I choose to obey and follow GOD statues (guidelines) on how to live to please HIM, to abstain from homosexualism, drunkness, covetousness, stealing, while others do the opposite. Thats the freedom HE gives us.

  • Bones

    Jesus is talking to his Jewish culture. The destruction isn’t hell, it’s the destruction of Jerusalem….

    Jesus refers to this in the following verses of Chapter 7.

  • Ruben Ponce

    JESUS is talking to all generations. The Bible is the Living word of GOD. GOD is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That means if JESUS hasn’t come yet and in a thousand yrs more, the same will apply to the subsequent generations.

  • What other translation translates “Lucifer” in Isaiah 14? What passages besides this one (the one under dispute) refer to Satan as Lucifer or the king of Babylon? What passages besides this one say Satan wanted to become God?

    There are not “plenty of passages” that describe homosexuality as being an abomination even in the KJV. There is one. You know what else the KJV calls an abomination? A false weight.

    Of course James isn’t going to omit those passages. How obvious could you get? “Yes, translate the Bible. But please leave out the homosexuality stuff. No reason.”

    Dude, you really need to get a handle on history and your Bible.

  • Bones

    Phil I can prove that Lucifer = Jesus

    ““How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star (Lucifer), son of the dawn! ”

    “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things [h]for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”

  • Bones

    No Jesus isn’t…….

    And no the Bible isn’t…..

    And Jesus probably isn’t…..

  • Actually it was the Canaanite god Attar’s domain, which was subsumed into Christian mythology and now has become so synonymous with the lore that most people don’t know the difference. This is obviously the case here, much as how references to the king of Tyre had to be references to Satan because… they were obviously talking about Satan, just calling him a different name! Sigh.

  • Okay, and… this has, yet again, nothing to do with my post.

  • Again, that’s not freedom. Freedom is more than just the right to be wrong and suffer horribly for doing so. That’s called violent coercion, and is deeply immoral when humans do it.

  • Bones

    “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:….”

    That proves it.

    God is intersex…..

  • Ruben Ponce

    I already explained Isaiah ch 14 vs 12-14. No man or kingdom has fallen from Heaven ch.12, no man or kingdom has the power to ascend to Heaven and above the stars ch.13, no man or kingdom has the power to ascend above the heights of the clouds and be like the MOST HIGH.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thanks Bones, an earlier post Sam, you, or Phil questioned JESUS lineage to King David. I was looking for that verse, its in Revelations.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You mentioned something about hate, whether its straights hating gays or just acting like I hate gays or whatever. No true, I don’t hate people, I hate their sinful lifestyles and what they are doing. I said love the sinner, hate the sin.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If thats your belief, then so be it, but as you say about kingdoms being referenced to satan, that means there is a satan then.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I always thought freedom was a choice, and of course all choices have consequences, good consequences for good choices and bad consequences for bad choices.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Wrong Mr. Bones, when GOD said “let us make man in our image, after our likeness”, HE made Adam (period). After at a later time (who knows how long) HE made Eve, after seeing that it was not good for man to be alone, so HE made him a helper.

  • … “something about hate”?

    You literally read one word in the post. It had nothing to do with you whatsoever.

    Seriously, go back and re-read it. Your reading comprehension is horrible. How do you supposedly understand scripture when it’s clear you’re barely literate?

  • Not at all. It means that your denomination is so obsessed with Satan that, like you do with Jesus, you assume everything in scripture which matches your assumptions about either of them must be a secret reference to them, regardless of the broader context of the text.

  • The freedom you’ve espoused is like a parent leaving an opened bottle of bleach in a baby crib and giving the baby the freedom to decide to drink it. This is terrible theology to describe a God who is supposed to be the personification of love, which is so thoroughly described in 1 Corinthians 13-

    Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    If God and love are synonymous, as 1 John 4:7-21 proclaims, then God should have the qualities described in 1 Corinthians 13 and would thus not be inclined to engineer a situation in which the vast, vast majority of humanity will fail. This extortion is not love, and has too much to do with punishment, which is explicitly not love and not of God.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I was responding to your post because you responded to mine and you wrote (you’re), which clearly means you were addressing it to me.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Because the whole Bible is the Living Word of GOD, from Genesis to Revelation, and since the fall of man (Adam and Eve) satan has been trying to beguile and destroy GOD’s creation, thats you and me and all humanity.

  • Does the fact that what you replied had nothing to do with what I had said make any difference to you? It was a total non sequitur.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You cannot equate us with a baby, truely a baby does not have the intelligence to differentiate between good and bad or poison. And GOD is Love, HE proved that by sending HIS only son, JESUS to die for our sins. And this is the battle that we face now, we either choose HIM and live by HIS commandments or choose to live your own way without CHRIST, and if the vast vast majority fails, its because they chose to fail, I and my family and many friends refuse to fail.

  • No, Jesus was allegedly the living word of God, and he had words for people who obsess over scripture.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Clearly that was an insinuative post.

  • The Bible repeatedly disparages human intelligence and explicitly says that we will become confused, calling good evil and evil good, so we are like children unable to differentiate between what is and what is not. 1 13 Corinthians again:

    For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

    The truth only becomes truly known when subjectivity passes away, and that is not within our lifetimes. True knowledge comes afterward, as well as the perspective to understand and appreciate it, and then choice becomes relevant.

    Until then, it’s all luck. Pure, blind luck. You puff up proudly at having made what you think is the correct decision and try to place blame on others for not, but that is arrogance and evil speaking through you, and is an utter failing of imagination and empathy. You could just as easily have been born an African child, raised in Hindu traditions. You could have been born in China where religion is disparaged. You could have been born in Japan before westernization emerged and would know only Shinto. You could have been born thousands of years ago as a Canaanite, shaking your head at the foolishness of the Israelites who attempted to conflate their human warrior Yahweh with the god El, father of the Elohim, the many gods.

  • Ruben Ponce

    No alleging here. Either you believe that JESUS is the son of GOD or that automaticall makes you an agnostic or atheist.

  • Ok, I’m pretty sure at this point you don’t care what the Bible says and I’m just wasting my time. You have a tradition that carries more weight than the actual biblical text, and I get how that happens.

    Just to recap:

    My contention: Isaiah 14 is about the king of Babylon, not Satan.

    Evidence from the Bible I have brought up:
    – Isaiah 14 is meant to be spoken by Isaiah to the king of Babylon (Isa. 14:3-4)
    – Isaiah 13 is about Babylon (Isa. 13)
    – The text does not mention Satan anywhere (Isa. 14) nor the name Lucifer (the original hebrew of the Hebrew bible version of Isa. 14:12, the Septuagint that Jesus used version of Isa. 14:12, the Textus Receptus version of Isa. 14:12, every other translation on the planet but the KJV’s English translation of Isa. 14:12)
    – The use of ascent to heaven to describe Babylon’s original rebellion (Gen. 11:4)
    – Ascending to heaven and being higher than the heavens is used elsewhere to talk about human rebellion (Job. 20:4-7)
    – The “heavens” is also used to describe the origin point of faraway mortal armies, including the chapter immediately beforehand (Isa. 13:4-5, 17)
    – To be brought down to Sheol just means to die – it does not mean go to Hell (Too many references – in Genesis alone, Gen. 37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44:31)
    – The word the KJV translates as “Lucifer,” Jesus uses as a name for himself (Rev. 22:16)

    Your contention: The Bible is wrong when it says this is for the king of Babylon. Really, this passage is a prophecy to Satan.

    Evidence from the Bible You Have Brought Up: None.

    Evidence from Your Own Head You Have Brought Up: Satan wants to depose God and rule heaven, so Isaiah 14 must be about him.

  • And we all know Jesus descended into Hell and ascended into Heaven, so Isa. 14 must be about him.

  • No, it really wasn’t. You totally misunderstood it.

    My point was that sometimes gay people put on a show of hating homosexuality for whatever reason. Often it’s projection, reacting to their own desires by imagining that other people experience the same thing so that they can safely condemn it. This is often the case with people who use arguments like “if homosexuality weren’t immoral, then there would be no reason to be straight!” (The person is assuming that everyone experiences the same feelings they do, projecting their homosexuality onto others.) A person who vehemently condemns homosexuality often turns out to be deeply insecure about their own sexuality, especially about others finding out about it, so they become aggressive toward others in response.

    Thus King James had a very good reason not to remove the condemnations of same-sex activity from the Bible. Anyone familiar with the Bible know very well that it had been changed in a very conspicuous way and would quickly trace it back to the person who had ordered the alteration. Not wanting anyone to find out about his same-sex activity, he passed laws and incorporated a particularly virulent condemnation against homosexuality into his religious philosophy.

  • Er, no, those words have meanings and neither meaning is consistent with that assertion. An agnostic person takes no certain position with regard to religion; an atheist has no religious beliefs at all. Your definition leaves no room for people of unorthodox Christian beliefs or of faith in other religions.

  • Bones

    Are you saying women aren’t made in the image of God?

  • Bones

    But he has XY chromosomes which you say makes him a man???!!!!

  • Ruben Ponce

    The Bible is very clear about talking about satan in ch.14 vs 12-15. Now here is another passage talking about satan as the prince of Persia in Daniel ch.10 vs 13, in this passage an angel was sent to deliver Daniel a message but satan( prince of Persia) witheld the angel and the archangel Michael came to the angel’s help. One more passage about satan, in Ezekiel ch28 vs 1-17 probably the whole 28th chapter.

  • Ruben Ponce

    And that is whats happening as we speak, letting men use women’s bathrooms and calling it good. And Paul was saying exactly what I said as a babe cannot differenciate between ggod and bad, but when we become adults, now we know right from wrong. And this gospel is being preached in all the world as we are seeing Christians being persecuted for years now, more so now as the end is nearer now.

  • I truly give up. You are worse than illiterate — you read what you desire to read, whether the text says it or not.

    May you find harmony, man of clay.

  • Ruben Ponce

    HE did descended into hell (for three days) as you rightly pointed out, so there is a literal hell. What HE told the demons we don’t know, but must of said something.

  • Ruben Ponce

    All speculative on KJ.

  • Except Daniel 10 does not say it was Satan, it says it was “the prince of the kingdom of Persia.” And Ezekiel 38 quite clearly says it’s the king of Tyre. Satan is not mentioned in any of those passages. You really don’t care what the Bible actually says, do you?

  • Ruben Ponce

    GOD is 100% true and nothing less. Can’t be a believer without being 100% certain. In Revelation 3:16 JESUS said because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There is no refernces whatsoever in the Bible about GOD looking like the image of a woman, on the contrary, GOD(the HOLY SPIRIT) impregnated a lady known as the virgin Mary.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Correct, xx makes you a female, xy makes you a male.

  • Ruben Ponce

    In that you are truely right, GOD is the potter, we are the clay.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You lack discernment.

  • I guess if reading the actual text counts as lacking discernment. You’re the one making all kinds of texts -that specifically say they’re about someone else- about Satan.

    Hey, you remember in Daniel where Nebuchadnezzar threw some people in a fiery furnace? Well, Nebuchadnezzar is both A) the king of Babylon, and B) throwing people into a fiery furnace. Who does that? Satan. Clearly the devil himself threw Daniel’s friends into the furnace. I know the text says it was Nebuchadnezzar, but we know that doesn’t mean anything if the character being mentioned shares characteristics we attribute to Satan.

    You remember the story of David and Goliath? Well, Goliath blasphemed God -and- was a strong man, just like Jesus said he came to bind. You know who blasphemes God and makes war against his people? That old dragon, Satan. So, David wasn’t fighting a big Philistine – he fought Satan himself AND KILLED HIM. But probably just his physical form.

    Also, Jesus calls himself the Morning Star in Revelation 22. You who know the Morning Star is, right? Satan. So, that’s big.

    Just let me know when you realize how moronic your hermeneutic is.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Three people were thrown into the furnace because they refused to worship the image of Nebuchadnezzar and no satan didn’t throw them in, but as satan is real, so is GOD and GOD sent HIS angel to the burning pit and protected the three from harm, as you know how the story goes. As far as Goliath, he was not satan, but an angel of GOD had to have been with David when he killed a lion and a bear, what ordinary man could do that if GOD is not with him, so definitely GOD was also with him, when he slinged the stone towards Goliath, the angel of GOD must have directed the stone right towards the unprotected part of the forehead where the helmet did not shield it. Before his fall, satan was a bright star as Ezekiel wrote in ch 28 vs 17.

  • Nope, Satan threw them into the fiery furnace, Satan fought David, and Jesus claimed to be Lucifer. It’s ok to say a passage is about Satan if some of the characteristics line up, right?

    But yet, you say that Nebuchadnezzar and NOT Satan threw them into the fiery furnace. And David killed Goliath and NOT Satan. How do you know that if those people in the Bible resembled Satanic characteristics so much?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Its satan when satan himself plays the role, like beguiling Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit, or tempting JESUS when HE was in the wilderness for 40 days. All other passages that charactierize satan is pure evil like murder, raped, etc. etc…

  • Or when Satan threw three guys into the fiery furnace, right? What’s the difference between saying Satan did that and Satan tempted Eve?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Again, satan himself played a role, he did the talking, there was nobody else involved, it was Eve and satan themselves talking to each other.

  • And Nebuchadnezzar did the throwing. Goliath did the fighting. How do you know those aren’t figurative stand-ins for Satan like the serpent in the Garden?

  • Ruben Ponce

    You said it, Nebuchadnezzar did the throwing, Goliath did the fighting, you named the characters.

  • Ok, well, now I’m confused. If the characters are -named- who they are, then they can’t be Satan? Is that what you’re saying?

  • Ruben Ponce

    No need to be confused, just because a person does an evil act don’t mean he is satan. GOD will forgive a person upon repentence and doing a 180 turn and recieving JESUS CHRIST and their Savior. Satan himself cannot be forgiven.

  • Dude, I honestly cannot make any sense of the way you read the Bible or the way you explain it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

  • So, the reason you don’t make any sense is because your understanding has been darkened? Well, I appreciate your honesty and courage.

  • Ruben Ponce

    My understanding is not darken. Everthing I have said is truth, that the only way to heaven is thru JESUS CHRIST, and none other, and homosexualism will not inherit Heaven, neither wil all forms of perversion,

  • BrotherRog

    “let us create humankind in our image, in our likeness” – God, Genesis 1:26

    do the math people. : )

    Roger Wolsey, author, Kissing Fish: christianity for people who don’t like christianity

  • Brian Kellogg

    This article is excellent, thank you.

    This stands beautifully in contrast with the black/white binary otherizing fundamentalist theology that can harm so many. But, I fear it falls mostly on ears that won’t hear, eyes that won’t see, and minds that won’t honestly wrestle with the obvious realities and complexities of life allowing it to expand their room for compassion and love. In my neck of the woods, many would just read the title and few would actually read it and they would think it “of the devil” as that is how they are conditioned. Its incredibly sad and maddening.

  • pj3333

    What if “he made them male and female” refers not to two distinct genders but to the fact that we all start from conception with identical sexual organs and genitalia and that we all have androgens and estrogens in our system? Maybe God put both the feminine and the masculine within each of us so that we would recognize and honor the commonalities we share.

  • Rick Crowell

    If the scriptures said that in the beginning, God created them brown-skinned, what would people say about light-skinned and dark-skinned people? Would people argue that the different skin-tones were a result of the fall?

  • Connie Perkins Kreienheder

    Ruben, you’re either a troll trying to bait us or a very naive and narrow-minded Bible-Thumper (those that read but don’t comprehend)….anyway, your attitude is far, far from Christian

  • They’ve been saying that for centuries already. That’s what they used to call the mark of Ham.

  • mcgyver99

    There are many kinds of birth defects. As a rule, a person born with both sexual organs only has one of them functional. As time goes on the one that doesn’t work shriveled.

    To simply take their couple of lines of Scripture as full gospel without study and prayer because one likes the way it sounds is going against much of Scriptures teaching. Get off the bandwagon and open your Bibles. The Bible says…not…to leans on man’s understanding but that of God’s. Before you read, give God praise and thanks, then ask for the wisdom to understand His Word…then read, study and pray…then decide if what these folks are saying about Scripture is accurate. As I said, to take man’s word over God’s Word is wrong so do as the Bible commands and verify. If you don’t, then why follow the Bible at all?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Im with you on this one Mcgyver, I call the extra member an appandage that will be useless and can be surgically removed, but a person will never be born a male(xy) and then decides he wants to be a woman or vice versa.

  • Bones

    The Bible says nothing about Transgender.

    Not a single verse.

  • Bones

    A person can be XY and born with a womb.

    Your black and white world doesn’t fit in a grey world.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thats not true at all, XY is for males only, next thing you’re gonna say is an XY person could, may or possibly be able to impregnate himself.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I beg to differ. Deu 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.

  • Bones

    Yeah sure. Like eating lobster is an abomination.

    What do you think that verse actually means? So women can’t wear jeans and a shirt because that’s a sin? What about clergy wearing robes? Or maybe we have to dress up like 3000 year old tribespeople who wore dresses?

    Hint: has nothing at all to do with Transgender.

    Bad luck.

    You’ll have to find another killer verse.

  • Bones

    I’ve already proved it’s true. What do you call someone who has XY chromosomes, no penis but has a vagina.

    See CAIS…..

  • Beth

    ” satan creeps in to destroy what GOD has created by confusing their minds”

    And you seem to be exceptionally confused.

  • Cathy McMahan

    very good article, I had a friend in grade school who was intersex, and I was never taught to judge people, I did not know until they had to do surgery but have never forgot it. Thanks

  • Cathy McMahan

    not sure I agree, we just call them transgender because we know they are going through the change.

  • Cathy McMahan
  • Cathy McMahan
  • Cathy McMahan
  • Jeff Preuss

    I still think Ruben is confusing the two. A lot of his issues appear to stem from people transitioning from their apparent birth gender, instead of actually acknowledging the objective existence of folks who are not distinctly biologically male or female. Many of his arguments stem from people not accepting what God made them at birth…while insisting intersex people be one or the other (in other words, NOT what they were at birth)/

  • Ruben Ponce

    Ecactly right, women should not be wearing jeans. A robe is not a dress and no you don’t need 3000 yr old dresses, J. C. Penny has plenty of them

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not true at all, anything other than a man with a penis or a woman with a vagina is call an appandage that is useless and can be medically removed if its an embarressment, which in most cases it is.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I am not confused, I don’t think Im a woman, I don’t use the woman’s bathroom, I don’t put on make-up or wear a dress. I am who I see in the mirror.

  • Ruben Ponce

    It was just an appandage born with him/her. I hope your friend had it surgically removed if it was an embarrassment to him/her.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Whether its one or millions, this verse is for the whole world.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not confusing one or the other, I stand with my comments, either your are XX (female) or XY (male). There is nothing inbetween.

  • Bones

    The vagina isn’t an appendage and they don’t have a penis. ….

    Should they have a penis transplant to make you happy?

  • Bones

    You’re far worse.

    You’re wilfully ignorant.

  • Bones

    It’s none of your business.

  • Bones

    You mean like eating lobster is an abomination….

    Nope that verse is for no one.

  • Bones

    Then you are stupid…

  • Bones

    Except for the exceptions.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If they are born with a vagina, then they are females no ands, if, or buts about it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I don’t think Im ignorant when I look in the mirror and right away know if Im male or female.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Its everybody’s business when a person is born male but thinks he’s female and wants to use the girls facilities.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There are certain animals one should not eat, whether lobster, bats, or dogs, they were not meant for human consumption. Certain cultures do eat that that is forbidden.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thats not me saying it, its on your Bible, read it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not with GOD, HE does not make mistakes.

  • Cassie Devereaux

    Trouble being, when people consider science that falls outside their worldview as “a lie from Satan” there’s not a blessed thing you can do to convince them. They’ve already rejected any possible means of reason or persuasion, and they have the “get out of thinking free” trump card. All you can do is pray for ’em. Pray that the Holy Spirit moves in their lives before they harm, and reveals which voice truly is of the deceiver.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I know there’s little I can do to talk any sense into his worldview. S’why he’s just on a firm ignore now. Pray thay God lifts the self-imposed blinders from his eyes, and walk away.

  • Cassie Devereaux

    Amen.

  • Brian Considine

    He doesn’t. Gene mutation does. 99.97 of the time the biological result of sperm and an egg is either XX or XY. But science does also demonstrate that gene mutation affects living creatures.

  • Cassie Devereaux

    Okay, soooooo….. at some point creation just kinda got out of God’s hands? Like, the process just slipped away from him, mutations started happening, and he just had no control over it and was powerless to do anything about it? God is all powerful over his creation, except for mutations where God just has to throw up his hands and shrug? Come, now. God’s not that limited.

    Also, the word “intersex” means something different than “transgender” if that’s what you’re referring to in your final sentence. The two words have different meanings. So…… yeah. The US federal government is currently not doing anything related to intersex people.

  • Bones

    Except for when he does….

  • Bones

    No that’s you saying it.

    The idea that God hates women wearing jeans is stupid.

  • Bones

    Jesus disagreed.

    Hence why it’s fine to eat pigs and shellfish.You have to be pretty dumb to not know that.

  • Bones

    Everyone isn’t like you.

    Thank god.

  • Bones

    Nope.

    You wouldn’t even know if it had happened.

  • Bones

    They have XY chromosomes, a vagina and no penis.

    It’s hard to believe people are this stupid.

  • David Cohen

    The central question is God’s role in the natural processes of the world, There is a view called “supernaturalism,” which posits that God is the immediate and direct cause of all natural processes, from earthquakes to rain to the sex of a newly conceived zygote. There is another view, called “naturalism,” which posits that, in creating the world, God ceded a degree of the power of creation to creation itself. Thus, according to naturalism, earthquakes, rain and sex determination occur because the natural world is set up in such a way that these things can be.

    A supernaturalistic point of view pretty much precludes any need to study the natural world. After all, why bother studying the world when the answer to every question you raise is “God.” However, most educated Christians adopt a naturalist perspective. Because of that, they believe that science can and should be studied for its own sake, but they can also recognize God as the primary cause of all natural events.

    Christian naturalism allows for two considerations. First, it acknowledges that God can interact with creation, but generally does so using natural processes as intermediaries. These interventions are referred to as “miracles.” Christian naturalism also notes that, since the world is corrupt and things often go wrong, there can be errors in how the natural world works because there are worldly intermediaries between God’s will and the effects of natural processes. Mutations would be an example of such an error.

    With regards to transgender folks, the question is which is in error, their physiology or their psychology. There is a bias that physiology is more “real” than psychology because physiology is tangible. The high number of suicides among the transgender community should put that bias to rest (tragically, it hasn’t, but that is another story). With this, and the role of Christian naturalism in mind, a case can be made that it is neither imprudent or unchristian for society to respect transgender folks in body, mind and soul.

  • Cathy McMahan

    how do we know, I have never had mine tested. I have heard of little children 4 and 5 saying they were opposite of what their gender is, I don’t have the answers, but there are a lot of things they don’t know. Doctors are just men and women, they learn new stuff all the time.

  • Cathy McMahan

    http://wkbn.com/2016/05/12/sex-vs-gender-doctors-change-their-approach-with-intersex-kids/ How do you explain this then. I think sometimes we were all raised to be bigots and then I ask what were eunuchs, Jesus said in Matthew that some were born that way. What way?????

  • Cathy McMahan

    how do you know at birth she can get pregnant? Women who have all the right stuff can’t have children. So there goes that thought.

  • Cassie Devereaux

    Well put, and quite informative. I am certainly not of a supernaturalist bent personally. I am perhaps getting to the point of banging my head on the wall and tearing out my hair, which might make me more inclined to sarcasm. It’s been a demeaning process, seeing this all play out. Also worth noting of course, many intersex folk ARE affected by these executive actions, although I believe there was no understanding of the term in the gent I responded to. Also, I saw an article of a cisgender woman pulled out of a ladies’ room by police because she was seen as a man due to dress and mannerisms, so cisgender people too are being affected.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I already gave you the chapter and verse on men wearing women’s apparel, its on your Bible, read it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Are you aware of some cultures that eat monkeys, camels, and yes dogs. I hope you don’t think this is acceptable ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    You said, thank GOD. That tells me you do believe in GOD. Well then why can’t you accept that HE made them male and female, not inbetweens.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Why would anyone try to disguise himself/herself from who they really are ?

  • dcpdx

    so, enlighten me please? what does your math conclude? if it is just 2, then according to your assertion, is an intersex person not human?

  • dcpdx

    what do you do with hermaphrodites? what about xxy and xyy individuals? what is your assertion regarding these people? from a biblical perspective, on what basis would you attribute to satan these chromosomal variations?

    are you familiar with what happens to people who are hermaphrodites? how would YOU make the decision, if you were the doctor?

  • dcpdx

    being someone who comes from another culture where dogs and monkeys are eaten, on what basis are you saying it is wrong? i can understand the perspective written as Jewish law, but what do you do with the text in Acts 10 where God declares that all food is clean (Ac 10:15)? it seems the question God asks of Peter applies to your assertion?

  • dcpdx

    do you make a distinction between living under OT law and the NT grace? how does your assertion concerning clothing apply to cultures with “extreme” temperatures? would like to hear your distinctions between the OT and NT. what do you transport to contemporary times and why?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Try telling that to a Dr.

  • Cassie Devereaux

    [EDIT: Y’know what? Forget it. You’re gonna keep on doing this, and there’s no profit in persuing this.

    1 Cor. 13:11:
    “When I was a child I spoke as a child I understood as a child I thought as a child; but when I became a man I put away childish things.”]

  • Cassie Devereaux

    Welp, you’re welcome to it. I’d suggest you don’t condescend, but, well. I started that party, so I really can’t. Try less legalistic justification for your bias, more agape. 1 Corinthians 13. Seriously. If that chapter’s childish, so be it. Try it. Cheers.

  • Cassie Devereaux

    And you use the Holy Scripture as a weapon. You use the Word to hurt and hate, and in the service of pride You don’t like the scripture I quote? You find it childish? You find anyone who disagrees with you or points out your spite is immature? Okay then. So be it. God help you.

  • Isa Almisry

    “I’ve been wanting to blog about this topic, but I’m not an expert on it.”

    That is for sure.

    He says “Male and Female.” That is quite clear.

    God made the congenitally blind, but the person, not the disease (which, according to Christianity, comes from the Fall).

    “I don’t see Jesus calling us to become manly or womanly.”

    If no one acts “manly” or “womanly”, how will the “transgendered” identify their gender while denying their sex?

  • You wouldn’t like the answer I got from God, the last time I asked for clarification regarding a passage in the Bible.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Yeah, like if LGBT respect christians in mind, soul and body. They demand that we accept their sinful lifestyle. As for Christians, we don’t hate the sinner, but we hate sin.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Im not confusing the two, Im just quoting the CREATOR of the two sexes. HE made them male and female, and nothing inbetween. Now unless the CREATOR makes mistakes and couldn’t decide which to make and came out as both sexes, which I find it impossible that the CREATOR could’ve said “opps”.

  • Exodus 4:11 isn’t God claiming responsibility for people being blind?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Some people are born with an extra member, which is really an appandage than can be surgically removed, because that appandage will serve no purpose.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Many women are unable to get pregnant because of some medical reasons, my point is people with XY chromosomes(males) will never have the right stuff to get pregnant, and there are only two sets of chromosomes that determine your gender, XX(female) or XY (male).

  • Ruben Ponce

    No such thing as xxy or xyy. Its either xx or xy. Some people are born with appandages that serve no purpose or are usless and can be surgically removed because its either an embarrassment to have that appendage and/or is affecting your self-esteem.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Because otherwise if all food is clean, then we can say rats and mice are good for consumption.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Why would a man wear a dress just because its hot out there ?

  • Isa Almisry

    Nope.

  • Isa Almisry

    “The high number of suicides among the transgender community should put that bias to rest (tragically, it hasn’t, but that is another story).”

    So the high number of suicides of those forced into bankruptcy are deluded that bankruptcy is not a desirable state?
    And suicide among the terminally ill? That “bias” too?

    Btw, there is a HIGH rate of suicide among those who undergo “gender assignment” surgery/”treatment.” According to your thesis, their suicide rate should be nill.

  • So the phrase “Who makes them blind? Is it not I?” doesn’t mean God makes people blind?

  • The suicide rate among people who undergo transition with a strong support network is significantly lower, which has led the APA to conclude that prejudice plays a large role in outcome.

  • dcpdx

    And, what’s the problem with that? Would you care to engage the text — Acts 10:!5? Was hoping for an honest dialogue.

  • dcpdx

    Would be interested to hear how you arrived to that conclusion. Are you familiar with Klinefelter syndrome or 47, XYY karotype? You can check on it via google or wikipedia. Are you interested in having an honest dialogue? I’m open to it but we’ll need to move past opinion.

  • dcpdx

    I’m a little unclear on how this answers the question I posed. Would you clarify, please? How do you distinguish between what is normative in the OT versus what is normative in the NT?

  • dcpdx

    Actually, God says rats and mice are good for consumption according to Acts 10:!5. What is your point?

  • Brandon Roberts

    i agree but intersex is extremely rare i do feel bad for them

  • Bones

    Because they are dressed as a woman.

    Would you like to do inspections?

  • Bones

    Because God made all, including in-betweens because God is in-between.

    That is so hard for you to accept.

  • BrotherRog

    “us” and “our” are references to plurality – nothing about a limitation of only two. You read that into the text. By “the math” I was simply pointing out that God is clearly meant to be understood as beyond limitations; i.e. beyond a singular. “Humankind” includes *all* humans – male, female, intersex, cis, trans, straight, gay, lesbian, bi, asexual… and more. Peace.

  • Bones

    We eat kangaroos over here. My aborigine friends eat crocodile, turtles, witchetty grubs and goanna which has been their staple diet since…… well ….before Abraham.

    Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean that God does.

    Projecting your own attributes onto a god creates an idol.

  • Bones

    That’s in the same book that has rapists marrying their victims and women being publicly examined for their virginity.

    You must be mad to take those as divine commands.

    Heck most churches have clergy wearing dresses.

    There must be something wrong with you.

    You are making a good case for presenting the Bible as an evil collection of books designed to feed bigotry.

  • Bones

    Well they would know about CAIS…..given it’s a medical term….

    “Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS) is a condition that results in the complete inability of the cell to respond to androgens.[1][2][3] The unresponsiveness of the cell to the presence of androgenic hormones prevents the masculinization of male genitalia in the developing fetus, as well as the development of male secondary sexual characteristics at puberty, but does not significantly impair female genital or sexual development.[3][4] As such, the insensitivity to androgens is only clinically significant when it occurs in genetic males (i.e. individuals with a Y chromosome, or more specifically, an SRY gene).[1] All affected individuals are phenotypically female; they develop a normal female habitus, despite the presence of a Y chromosome.[“

  • Matthew

    What is it you strrrrrroooonnnnglllllyyyy dislike about Augustine K. Elizabeth Danahy?

  • Isa Almisry

    Since it was politicized, the APA’s conclusions are about as worthless as Noble Peace Prizes now.

    Strong support network. You mean, an army of enablers.

  • Isa Almisry

    In the sense on point, only if you are a Calvinist. Fortunately, neither Moses nor Christ was.

  • David Cohen

    “we don’t hate the sinner, but we hate sin.”

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/04/pastor-calls-for-killing-gays-to-end-aids/19929973/

    Hypocrisy, just one more reason why the churches are dying

  • David Cohen

    Your first paragraph is a pair of false analogies. Furthermore, it shows a degree of callousness on your part. I don’t know about you, but personally I think that helping people avoid suicide is a good thing, regardless of the circumstances.

    Now then, as for your (unsupported) second assertion, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that gender reassignment surgery magically undoes all the trauma the transgendered individual experienced prior to the surgery, and that once the surgery is completed all societal bias against them ceases, thus making their lives a place of constant bliss. Anyone who has ever spoken to transgender individuals knows this is hardly the case. Maybe if you climbed off your high horse and got to know some of the people you are pontificating about, you might see their situation differently.

  • Bones

    Yeah they should go back to the good old days when homosexualiy was defined as a mental illness and pick axe lobotomies were performed on gay people. Electric Shockwave treatment was another favourite torture backed by Christians….

    The Bible says nothing about gender and our God is both genders.

    It’s really just another group of people for you to be outraged about.

  • Bones

    ““God made them male and female” as if that’s all God made, and as if all of our gender discussions can fit neatly inside certain boxes, I’d invite you to consider that gender is an issue with more complexity than we often realize or admit.”

    But ….but….but….read what the Bible says…….

    Oh that’s right nothing…..

    (And disease didn’t come from the Fall – that’s a freebie)

  • Bones

    Your not quoting the creator. Your quoting a legend not unlike our Dreamtime stories. And even if it wasn’t, the quote has not the slightest thing to do with Transgender.

    God is intersex or genderless – take your pick but god doesn’t have a dick or a vagina.

    Maybe you should be disgusted with God.

  • Bones

    Except the Bible isn’t God’s Word.

    God told me that.

  • Bones

    Sam is da man….

  • Bones

    Good luck with anything honest from him.

  • Bones

    So God raped Mary,,,,,,,

    Omg you don’t believe women are made in the image of God.

    Are you a Mormon or a moron?

    Or both?

    God doesn’t need a dick or a vagina….

    Wow how dumb can people get.

  • Bones

    You don’t get it do you.

    You turn people AWAY from Jesus.

  • Jeff Preuss

    “The suicide rate among people who undergo transition with a strong
    support network is significantly lower, which has led the APA to
    conclude that prejudice plays a large role in outcome.”

    Reminds me of when people have implored me not to be gay because of the depression and self-destructive behaviors inherent to the stereotype, never minding those are overwhelmingly the result of prejudice and ostracizing.

  • David Cohen

    More unsupported assertions. Facts which do not affirm your biases are not necessarily wrong.

  • dcpdx

    thank you for the clarification. i can’t help but wonder if “in our image” has, as a significant component, “in community.” just as Father, Son and Spirit are in eternal community, by virtue of humankind, all humans are in community.

    i’ll sidestep the subsequent dialogue about who is inside/outside God’s community (His people) since that would be another topic of discussion…

  • dcpdx

    having limited experience with Ponce, i can still be hopeful. i observe that he points back to the biblical text so there is some common ground. i seek to understand how he views biblical authority and his perspective of hermeneutics. (Ruben, you still out there?)

  • Sims Simon

    1 Samuel 16:14-23 Now the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord tormented him.

  • Sims Simon

    What have Chick-Fil-A, “Sweet Melissa” bakery, Kim Davis and the San Bernardino shooters taught us about the discrimination against gays again :

    Thanks to “Christians” who cherry pick the bible and pervert Christ’s teachings of the condemnation of Divorce as in Matthew 19:3, but only take the subsequent verses to be interpreted as “traditional marriage” or “Biblical marriage” between “man and woman” as an excuse to then legislate man-made laws of hatred by legalizing discrimination towards gays, the 2 muslim shooters of the San Bernardino as a bi-national couple had no issue entering this country, to have a marriage license and to finally have a graceful burial and a honorable death certificate acknowledging their “traditional marriage” and “biblical marriage” as “a man and a woman”. While Jim Obergefell had to go through a hell of an ordeal to fight for such honor for his partner, just because of his true love to a person of the same sex.

    If those Muslim terrorists were to go the recent Oregon or Colorado “Christian” bakeries who were fined for refusing service to gay couples or any restaurant with their owner believing in the Westboro doctrine of homophobia, they would have gotten their wedding cake or other services without any questions asked as they fit the “biblical marriage” a “man and woman”. And if those terrorists couple were to go to Kim Davis, the multiple divorcee homophobic “Christian” at the Rowan County in Kentucky to apply for their marriage license, she would have issued them their marriage license without any questions as they fit her requirement of her “religious belief” that only allows her the “religious freedom” to celebrate the “Biblical marriage” as “man and woman”.

    “Christian” homophobes have so much blood on their hands when they strongly object to a gay couple expressing their love (like David and Jonathan as in 2 Samuel 1:26 I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, MORE WONDERFUL THAN THAT OF WOMEN.) who would want to exchange marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death do them part so as to live by the Golden Rule as in Matthew 7:12 to fulfill the Great Commandment of Christ, while those “Christian” homophobes will gladly celebrate all the sins of sexual immoralities of DIVORCE & adultery (Kim Davis, Rush Limbaugh, Evangelist Graham, Pam Bondi, Republican state Representative Todd Courser of Michigan and Republican Rep. Cindy Gamrat , Alabama governor Robert Bentley…), rape, pedophile (Duggars (who also had 2 accounts on AshleyMadison, the website that helps married individuals have secretive affairs!!) , “Christian” author John Perry as co-author of book with Mike Huckabee and Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore, ..) together with other sinners of murderers, homophobes, thieves, terrorists, etc.. so long as they come forth to get married as a man & a woman.

    Indeed, the topic of homosexuality helps to weed out the KKKhristians from the Christians. Although both read the bible, one group follows Christ, the God who has NEVER EVER condemned homosexuality nor same sex marriage and preached love, while the other group follow other prophets as their ‘god’ and do everything what Christ said NOT to do. Ever notice how KKKhristians address their ‘god’ mostly by the generic name ‘god’, ‘bible’, ‘scripture’, but not Jesus Christ? Many of those KKKhristians know they are going against Christ as they deceive and brainwash their followers to do likewise. Religious homophobes are just another flavor of KKKhristians, and as Christ said about those who come in His name but bear the fruit of deception, lies and hate, they are wolves in sheep’s clothing who are here to defy the Great Commandment, the highest law of the entire bible.

  • Sims Simon

    Brian Considine – What “abuse of the central governments power” are you blaming for ?

  • Sims Simon

    Brian Considine – So for you who don’t live in a cave, it’s ok for schools to discriminate against transgender to follow what North Carolina has done with the passing of the HB2 law ?
    The Department of Education is under the Federal Government to put policies as they see fit to the US Constitution, perhaps you should go and live in a cave to learn something more useful.

  • Patricia Anne Brush

    The way that I rationalize it is this. God made male and female and he made male and female in God’s image. That means that God is, at the same time, both male and female. Humans, as reflections of God, are both male and female. The critical word is “and”. Humans are not made male OR female.

    Going a more medical route, I think when we consider genetics, we each carry the DNA of both parents, we are made up of both male and female.

    In gender expression, we all know people who are 99%M and 1%F (big tough guy that screams at spiders, if you want to go by stereotypes), people who are 50%F and 50%M (perhaps those people that are gender fluid), and everything else in between.

  • gimpi1

    And the whole point of the article above is that that is wrong. Did you read it? Intersex is a real and not uncommon thing. Chromosomes are not definitive. XXY people are real. And your whole idea of “sin” is made up by you. What you worship is your own rigidity and ignorance.

  • MKulnir

    This is just plain silly.

  • gimpi1

    And science is all the better for it. I prefer a doctor that checks the x-rays and lab results rather than having faith in his diagnoses without evidence.

  • gimpi1

    You’re describing being brainwashed. You believe a loving God will torture your loved ones, and brainwash you not to care… Ick. That’s one of the most hideously immoral things I’ve ever heard of.

  • gimpi1

    That’s because he makes no sense. He simply assumes whatever he wants something to mean is the meaning, and calls his bias “discernment.” It’s childish arrogance and ignorance squared.

  • gimpi1

    Just an outsider’s question, but why do you need to “be supportive” of someone making their own choices about their lives? Could this be covered under the “don’t judge” idea? Why do you need to be anything at all except supportive of people trying to find the best way to live their lives as they understand it? I really don’t get the need to disapprove of things that cause no harm to others…

    Frankly, we’re learning so much about how the brain functions right now, that there’s no telling what we may learn about how brain-chemistry affects gender perception in the next few years. We may discover a chemical basis for trans-people. We may not. However, if we really believe in freedom, I don’t know why that matters.

  • gimpi1

    Exactly. We’re learning a great deal about brain-function and structure. Much of it has shown that trans people appear to have physiological reasons rooted in the brain for their identity.

    I also think that shouldn’t matter. Why do they need a physical reason to live as they choose? If someone is transgender, if they want to transition, if they don’t, why can’t we just support them in their lives? Why is this a big deal?

  • gimpi1

    I’m trying to be objective here, but, honestly, the phrase “… do not allow for deviations,” grosses me out. Artists are deviations. Geniuses are deviations. Inventors, designers, composers, all are deviations. So are disabled people, people with addictions or mental problems. Sometimes people are in both groups. Who the heck wants to have a society with a bunch of clones!

    If your perfect world is everyone the same, thinking the same, all the women in demure dresses, married with kids, all the men “heads of households” and all marching in lockstep, that’s my idea of hell. Creativity is expensive. It requires people who are deviant, people who think differently, people who can see things that don’t exist yet. It’s hard, and it makes you different. And it’s the reason we aren’t living in trees or caves eating raw meat and roots.

    Of course, I don’t believe in a fall, so this may have nothing to do with me, but I felt pulled to comment on what I read as a call for mindless conformity in the name of God. That sounds awful.

  • Well, if you disregard the APA, there’s still the American Medical Association, the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy, the American Counseling Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the American Academy of Physician Assistants. And that’s just on this side of the waters. Internationally, there’s also the UK Council for Psychotherapy, the British Psychoanalytic Council, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, the British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy, the British Psychological Society and the National Counselling Society.

    But please, enlighten me as to the international conspiracy Satan has surely engineered to ensure that bullying trans people until they commit suicide is never accepted as the morally just thing to do.

  • I think you meant this reply to go to someone else, or else you didn’t get the punchline.

    Last time I asked God to explain why a passage very obviously didn’t mean what it said it meant, the reply I got was a snippish “You try writing something which will be interpreted the same way two thousand years and at least three translations from now.”

  • Yep. I’ve had to point out that a number of the death statistics for members of the LGBT community include elevated rates of murder. Many afterward continued to miss the point.

  • There is this trend among certain Christian circles to conflate letting something go unchallenged and participating in that presumed sin, as if they were not only empowered to judge, but commanded to do so.

  • Yes. I’m a little tired of Christians assuming that the only reason a person could have for being different are sinister. Something being innate or a choice should have no reflection on whether it becomes acceptable to mistreat them.

    I can’t fathom why people eat olives — they’re wretchedly disgusting and completely inedible to my palate — but I don’t assume anyone who eats olives is some kind of pervert trying to corrupt our society.

  • Jeff Preuss

    There is also a difference in supporting a person’s decision, and supporting the person. I try to lean toward the latter.

  • Sims Simon

    Brian Considine – Do you always have to lie to prove your point ? You denied of the fact that the Federal government has no jurisdiction over schools simply because you deny of the US constitution.

    Indeed bigots like you who embrace the Westboro doctrine are anti-Christ homophobes and transphobes who would do whatever it takes to claim that hate is good.

    Again, if you have gone to live in a cave, you would have learned much more things on how to be an adult than being such a childish and arrogant homophobe who live in a Westboro community, but so ignorant about what even the Bible really preached.

  • Sims Simon

    Brian Considine – hmm your projection tells more about you rather being so simple-minded who can’t make any case based on logic and the Scriptures to then be spewing your hatred and bigotry here. So sad of your utter ignorance about the Department of Education, the US Constitution and the teachings of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm.

    Indeed you should go to a cave to learn better things in life and how to be a Christian.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Of course. CHRIST came to the Jews first. Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. After CHRIST’s death, HE sent Peter to preach to the Gentiles which Peter refused because the Gentiles were unclean people according to the Jews. But GOD had plans that the gospel would be preached to the whole world. The gentiles(me) were not going to be unclean any more. Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd. Acts 10:15 is a symbolic scripture of us (those who are not Jewish). Those who were once uncleaned.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Im just quoting what GOD said, in the begining GOD made them male and female, don’t nothing of inbetween. I am aware that some people are born with appandages that serve no purpose, are useless and can be surgically removed.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I think alligator is quite delicious.

  • Bones

    Yeah. Sorry Sam. It was late at night and I had a few drinks.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You asked how my assertion concerning clothing apply to cultures of extreme temperatures ? I never said anything about what to wear in hot tempertures, unless you are saying something ?

  • Sims Simon

    Brian Considine – The Department of Education is following the 14th Amendment just as applied to the LGBT community to have equal rights to all citizens.Thus they are enforcing Title IX, the 1972 law that prohibits discrimination based on sex.

    You have already demonstrated how you are against the Government to provide for the LGBT community, and with all your rhetoric of other childish arguments with others of your “knowledge” of the Bible, you have demonstrated how you are a transphobe who adopt the Westboro doctrine to have such prejudice and hatred towards the LGBT community.

    Playing the victim card and projection tells more about your hate towards others for you to vote, legislate and support man-made laws of discrimination against people you don’t like. This shows how while you are pretending to be a Christian, you have absolutely no clues of what Christ really preached! Indeed your projection tells again about you to be the problem in the US and to the world to be spreading your lies to promote hatred.

  • Bones

    Do you still think women on their periods are unclean?

    The simple fact is they were ancient tribal and priestly customs which had nothing to do with God.

    In fact it’s what Christ tried to rectify and show that the kingdom of God was for all and there were no unclean.

    In your case, he failed.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense, act 10:15 is a symbolic scripture of preaching the gospel to the gentiles. You have to read from the begining of acts. To the Jews, the gentile were us, and we were uncleaned to them. Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I don’t see the good enough reason why a man would want to dress as a woman. Do you ?

  • dcpdx

    Thank you. Agreed that it does prepare Peter to go to the Gentiles, but is there anything to suggest that it doesn’t have a literal meaning concerning food?

    Peter’s appeal (for not eating what is unclean) is to Jewish dietary laws which Gentiles don’t follow. Yet, it shows immediate relevance to Paul’s admonishment of Peter concerning what they ate or that they were Gentiles — it’s just not that Gentiles are okay to minister to, but you can eat their food. Further, Paul shows in 1Cor that meat sacrificed to idols is okay (except when in consideration of weaker brethren). The point being, I’m unclear about your assertion concerning food — as far as it appears in Scripture (NT), God isn’t asking folks to abstain from unclean foods (as set in OT for Israel) when Jewish believers are not present (see conclusion of Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

    On a tangent, there should be a question about how extensive the Jerusalem council letter is to Gentile believers. The prohibition of sexual immorality is a constant where food is not. I believe there is a good rationale to explain the differences, but that would be another conversation.

    Thanks again for engaging and giving some clarity.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There were camels in Abraham’s time and yes there kangaroos crocs and turtles also, they didn’t eat them.

  • dcpdx

    Are we speaking of the same thing? Hermaphrodites (intersex) manifest both genitalia. The appendage you speak of is not, to my knowledge, unusable. In fact, it can be an issue because the expression of gender may not be completely revealed until puberty when the endocrine system kicks in.

    All that to say, while you have reduced a person to either one gender or the other, you have not “solved” or addressed the challenge of the article. While you can say someone is either male or female, the reality (by the existence of people who are intersex) indicates otherwise.

    My “critique” is that your position and argument fails, IMO, to deal with people. How do you determine what is “useless” when use exists? This is someone’s child, whether he/she/they, and some of these people are in the church, as parents or intersex individuals. Failing to appreciate or even respect what they are wrestling with doesn’t seem to represent Christ very well.

    What comes across in your written response is, “You don’t exist.” You are either XX or XY (which I take to mean phenotype, or expression of genes) neglects their genotype. What if an intersex individual was selected arbitrarily to be male (or female) but it is counter to their genotype? Have you considered the type of conversation you would have with a person facing this real situation?

  • dcpdx

    So, how do you understand Ps 139:13-16? Especially when David observes, “All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.”

    I’m not sure how you’re defining a calvinist, but if God is the One who determines our existence (who we are born to, when we are born and where we are born), how is our physical condition (i.e., blind, deaf, tall, short, congenital heart disease, blond, brown eyes, or whatever) beyond his purview? Paul tells us that in Christ all things are created (Col 1).

    I guess I would be interested in hearing, from your perspective, how God is not responsible or controlling our physical condition when we are conceived, to who we are born to, when we are born or where we are born.

    More importantly, on what basis would you say that having a congenital problem is bad? From our (human) perspective, that may be the case, but I’m not familiar with anything in the Bible that says God has a problem with it.

  • dcpdx

    it seems you are describing a certain style of clothing (that is contextually defined), in this case a dress. however, does something that looks like a dress (from one’s understanding) really mean it is a dress, in particular, to it’s wearer?

    drawing it back to the point of the discussion, what is the distinction between what men wear and what women wear? further, what is the importance of the distinction? it seems you are placing emphasis on behavior (what a person wears) over intent. my question is, “why is that?” what is the basis for your appeal to the Deut passage, and why?

  • Ruben Ponce

    They are not dresses, they are called robes.

  • No worries. Dealing with this site occasionally requires a few drinks. I’ve got some 60 year old bottles of wine I plan on uncorking over the next few weeks to find out if I’ve got something amazing or something vinegar.

  • “Many women are unable to get pregnant because of some medical reasons, my point is people with XY chromosomes(males) will never have the right stuff to get pregnant, and there are only two sets of chromosomes that
    determine your gender, XX(female) or XY (male).”

    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2008 Jan;93(1):182-9
    A 46,XY mother who developed as a normal woman underwent spontaneous puberty, reached menarche, menstruated regularly, experienced two unassisted pregnancies, and gave birth to a 46,XY daughter with complete gonadal dysgenesis.

    Eppur si muove.

  • dcpdx

    (Odd… Please forgive me if this shows up as a double post. I didn’t find it in this thread, but see it in another. Don’t know what happened… This is an earlier response.)

    Thank you. Agreed that it does prepare Peter to go to the Gentiles, but is there anything to suggest that it doesn’t have a literal meaning concerning food?

    Peter’s appeal (for not eating what is unclean) is to Jewish dietary laws which Gentiles don’t follow. Yet, it shows immediate relevance to Paul’s admonishment of Peter concerning what they ate or that they were Gentiles — it’s just not that Gentiles are okay to minister to, but you can eat their food. Further, Paul shows in 1Cor that meat sacrificed to idols is okay (except when in consideration of weaker brethren). The point being, I’m unclear about your assertion concerning food — as far as it appears in Scripture (NT), God isn’t asking folks to abstain from unclean foods (as set in OT for Israel) when Jewish believers are not present (see conclusion of Jerusalem council in Acts 15.

    On a tangent, there should be a question about how extensive the Jerusalem council letter is to Gentile believers. The prohibition of sexual immorality is a constant where food is not. I believe there is a good rationale to explain the differences, but that would be another conversation.

    Thanks again for engaging and giving some clarity.

    Postscript because of your additional post — if Ac 10 is just symbolic, a) what are the implications concerning OT law with how we live now, according to your paradigm (because it seems like you are advocating living under the OT dietary laws, at the least), and b) why does Paul not have an issue with the dietary laws in Rom, 1Cor and Gal (it would be reasonable to assume that Peter eating with the Gentiles wasn’t just Gentiles eating kosher food but Gentiles eating non-kosher)?

    Would be interested to hear why you deem Ac 10 just symbolic rather than both literal and representative (symbolic, as you say). Even if we discard Ac 10 to be conservative, an explanation for why Paul does not subscribe to all the content of the Jerusalem letter still remains.

  • Technically, 1 in 60. More common than having red hair, less common than left handedness.

  • “No such thing as xxy or xyy. Its either xx or xy.”

    Sex Chromosome Abnormalities Found Among 34,910 Newborn Children: Results From a 13-Year Incidence Study in Århus, Denmark J.Nielsen and M.Wohlert in Birth Defects: Original Article Series, Volume 26, Number 4, pages 209-223

    Chromosome examination was made of 88% (34,910) of all 39,618 live- born children at the Maternity Hospital in Århus during a 13-year period from 1969 to 1974 (4 years, 5 months) and from 1980 to 1988 (8 years, 7 months).

    47,XXY Klinefelter syndrome was found in 1 per 596 boys, 47,XYY in 1 per 894 boys, 47,XXX in 1 per 1002 girls, and 45,X Turner syndrome in 1 per 2130 girls.

    Eppur si muove once more.

  • I beg to differ. My experience is that quite a few people really are this stupid.

    But then, I’m Intersex, so am pretty much used to it, and possibly more exposed to it than most.

    Best is not to editorialise, just present facts. You won’t reach those so set in their ideas that mere facts will never change them, but they are still a minority. A large and growing minority to be sure, but still a minority at the moment.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Oh, you and yer fancy book-learnin’…and, and…Google fu skills!

  • Ruben Ponce

    Unless you want to question GOD your CREATOR. The garden of Eden was a paradise on Earth. Adam and Eve were supposed to live forever, never to die, otherwise GOD wouldn’t of said ” because thou have done this ” and then began the curse. So then, that being said, if you have any discernment, man had to die and no man knows when or how he will die, including disease. “till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return”.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:. Im not about to question my CREATOR as to whether HE is male or genderless, but ask yourself this question, how did the virgin Mary got pregnant ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Now I know you’re full of it. If you don’t believe the Bible is GOD’s living word, then why are you questioning chapters and verses we quote. You should’ve just came out straight forward and say you are agnostic or atheist. So then now, if you are saying the Bible is not GOD’s word, why do you keep saying what a ch. or vs really means ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not so gimpi, its XX(female) or XY(male), GOD didn’t make nothing inbetween. And no I didn’t make up sin, GOD told us in the Bible (GOD’s living word) but if you don’t believe what the Bible says about what sin is, then how are you ever going to find out ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    I do also go to a Dr when the need arrives, I don’t have anything against Dr’s, GOD gave them talent to become good Dr.’s. One of CHRIST apostles (Luke) I believe ,was a physician. But I pray first for healing, then go to the Dr and confirm the healing.

  • Ruben Ponce

    GOD doesn’t sent anyone to hell, we choose that ourselves, GOD gave us the freedom to believe or not. Some choose to believe in GOD, then do a 180 turn from the way they used to live. But if we choose to live deceptively before GOD, then it not HIS fault we wind up in a burning hell forever.

  • Ruben Ponce

    The Department of Education is following the 14th Amendment just as applied to the LGBT community to have equal rights to all citizens.Thus they are enforcing Title IX, the 1972 law that prohibits discrimination based on sex. Based on the sex that you are born with (male or female), not the sex you wish to be, outside of your birth sex.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Once you read from the begining of Acts your discernment should point that this verse has nothing to do with food. But many verses in the NT talks about man lying man (homosexuality) as a sin which many in this blog denies.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Of course they are unclean, for 7 or howmany days. Can’t have sex with your wife while on her period.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Yes that is my response to all, you are either XX(female) or XY(male) and there is nothing inbetwen. Whatever appandage is grown can be surgically removed, perferable at birth if possible. This baby will produce either male sperms(xy) or female sperms(xx) but not both.

  • Ruben Ponce

    We all know what a dress looks like, but some people equate a robe with a dress, not me. To answer your question as to why, and Im sure you are aware of this, a man puts on a dress and want to use the girls bathroom. Plain stupidiness. No amount of make-up or high heels is going to turn a man into a woman. He was born a man(xy) and he will be a man till the day he dies. Now he can put on all the dresses he wants and make-up all he wants, but he is still a man and should not be violating women’s privacy in the bathrooms.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not even going to bother reading false (fictitious) stories.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Made up reports. Don’t believe everything tje internet says.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You’re exactly like the far left liberals. Find me on the comments I sent you, any reference where I mentioned the word RAPE.

  • Ruben Ponce

    What else do you want me to say ? I texted you the scriptures where GOD said he made them male and female, and I don’t see where he made something inbetween. But you won’t take that as face value. Unless you can show me a scripture otherwise or some kind reference that somehow GOD makes two sexes in one.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thats exactly what we mean, hate the sin, not the sinner. We can acccept their sinful lifestyle.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Its an appandage that serves no purpose or is useless, if both genitalia served a purpose, you would be able to say they can impregnate themselves.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Then prove it with scripture that GOD made inbetweens, I’ve already proven to you that HE made only male and female. I can also show you a scripture where GOD said HE knows us before HE formed us, meaning before you were in your mother’s womb. Don’t you think HE knows better than to say” opps can’t make up my mind”.

  • Louise Williams

    For many people living with intersex conditions, it is a personal medical matter. I believe that is is insensitive and inappropriate that intersex condition be used as a “red herring” in the current gender debate. A long time ago we recognised and stopped naming people according to their conditions. It was recognised that people were people first – so we stopped saying “a blind person” and started saying “a person with visual impairment”. I am unsure why in the area of sexuality we have reverted to defining people in term of their sexuality. The condition of intersex and LGBTQ are very different issues. The “I” does not belong in the “LGBTQI” acronym. Some children with syndromes (http://www.isna.org/faq/conditions) fall into the intersex category. Intersex is a general term for a variety of conditions in which a person is born with a reproductive or sexual anatomy that doesn’t seem to fit the typical definitions of female or male. The conditions include: the 5-alpha reductase deficiency
    Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS)
    Aphallia
    Clitoromegaly (large clitoris)
    Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH)
    gonadal dysgenesis (partial & complete)
    hypospadias
    I have a line along the underside of my penis
    Klinefelter Syndrome
    micropenis
    mosaicism involving “sex” chromosomes
    MRKH (Mullerian agenesis; vaginal agenesis; congenital absence of vagina)
    ovo-testes (formerly called “true hermaphroditism”)
    Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (PAIS)
    Progestin Induced Virilization
    Swyer Syndrome
    Turner Syndrome. Many of these children do not have transexual or transgender issues and their parents do not wish them to be grouped with the “LGBTQ” group. Also many adults with these conditions are living normal life as a male or as a female and also do not wish to be grouped with the “LGBTQ” group. If people with intersex conditions do wish to identify with “LGBT or Q” they may choose one of these letters, we do not need “I” to be added to this acronym. There is more information on the Intersex Society of North America website. http://www.isna.org/faq/what_is_intersex. “At ISNA, we’ve learned that many intersex people are perfectly comfortable adopting either a male or female gender identity and are not seeking a genderless society or to label themselves as a member of a third gender class”.

  • Bones

    Why do women wear jeans and shirts?

    To offend you, no doubt.

  • Bones

    The aborigines have been eating them for 50 000 years. Not sure what your problem with our indigenous people’s diet is.

  • Bones

    They are dresses….

    Do you agree that rapists should be able to marry their victims…….

  • Bones

    There was no garden of Eden. It’s a myth and a legend. That’s not arguing with God but your warped view of reality.

    Could you imagine how many people would be on this Earth if nobody ever died……

    Let’s not forget that women’s pain in childbirth and the complications and deaths associated were supposedly a curse from God.

    Diseases and microbes have been around for millions of years.

  • Bones

    Do you think God had sex with Mary? Really?

    I have to say that’s a pagan view of the incarnation.

    God doesn’t have a dick or a vagina.

    That obviously horrifies you as they define who you are.

  • Bones

    Because they exist…..

    That’s your problem….not mine.

    It totally destroys your ridiculous interpretation of Genesis.

  • Bones

    Once again a vagina isn’t an appendage.

    Let’s go over this slowly.

    They have XY chromosomes, a vagina and no penis…..

    It is a medical condition known as CAIS and according to doctors these PEOPLE are, for all intents and purposes, female.

    So doctors disagree with you.

  • Bones

    Dude you don’t even think women are made in God’s image that’s how stupid your interpretation is.

  • Bones

    Really?

    You must be an infant.

    What are they teaching teenagers in the US?

    But we’ll aren’t just talking about your lack of understanding of female anatomy but the fact just touching a menstruating woman made you unclean.

    I can’t believe people can have such an ignorant bronze age view of humanity.

  • Bones

    Sex without consent is….rape.

    I don’t think I’ve ever heard a Christian refer to the incarnation as God shagging Mary.

  • Bones

    Because I’ve studied it for over 30 years.

    It’s tragic that people like you cause the Bible to be an object of ridicule with your childish interpretations.

    You are someone quite special. I know of no fundamentalists who see the incarnation as a divine sex act or that women aren’t created in god’s image.

    Tha kfully the person of Jesus shows that he came to refute people like yourself who divide people on the basis of religion.

  • Sims Simon

    Brian Considine – Oh my oh my, you continue to amaze me with your utter lack of education of almost everything. The 14th Amendment applies to all, just as Department of Education being under the Federal Government to be under the US Constitution. Title IX is specifically passed for the Department of Education to apply and enforce that, as an extension of the Civil Right act of 1964, which was also based on the 14th Amendment to give equal rights to blacks.

    Article 10 is not to be abused for such bigotry, rebellion nor treason for States to do whatever they like to go against the US Constitution. Thus discrimination laws of segregation nor other of your Westboro caveman simple minded like bigotries to take away the rights of others fellow American Citizens, are clearly unconstitutional as proven at least twice in the Civil Right Act of 1964 and all the ban of same sex marriage cases that the Courts struck down.

    There was never any public safety even without the law to be passed as there were ZERO evidence of transgender assaulting any person in a public bathroom. If a person wants to assault others in bathrooms, that criminal will do it anywhere anytime. Indeed Romans 1:22 tells more about your foolishness to put laws of discrimination against transgender like this disguised as “safety”, only to make you celebrate people of the same sex to assault others in bathrooms when you choose not to be doing anything to protect boys or men being assaulted in men’s bathroom, which makes you simple minded Westboro caveman bigots to celebrate such crime rather.

    And look at what your caveman Westboro simple minded law is doing to real woman being mistaken to be transgender and now being insulted in the bathroom they are supposed to be by other caveman Westboro simple minded people like you : https://www.facebook.com/never.shout.aimee/videos/vb.1473214698/10206543775341127/?type=3&theater

    So for you to mention safety of children at the expense of 0.3% of the population, shows how you put children and other women in danger rather. Indeed you are such a utter fool who is stubbornly arrogant to keep demonstrating your utter foolishness and wickedness of hate in every of your replies here to me and other people.

    Indeed you are just wasting your time demonstrating how you have a simple reprobate mind to not know the complete US Constitution, nor Government function nor what the Bible really preached in respect of how to treat each other. You have exchanged the proper truth for lies of the Westboro doctrine to justify your lifestyle of homophobia and transphobia, only to go against all the teachings of Christ and the LAW, His Great Commandment on what to do in order to live and have eternal life.

    Feel free again to demonstrate how you hate Christ to hate His commandments of the LAW and to commit the mortal sin just as sodomites did when they hated others to not welcome them in their cities by sexually raping others. The bottom line is there will never be any proper excuse for an American citizen to use to go against the 14th Amendment to deprive another fellow citizen of his/her rights, just as there will never be any proper excuse for a Christian to use to go against the LAW, the Great Commandment to treat somebody else badly with acts of wickedness from discrimination law to violence. This is how the LAW, the Great Commandment condemns homophobia, transphobia, just as it condemns murder, terrorism , pedophilia, hacking, theft, rape, adultery etc….

    Good luck with your anti-Christ lifestyle to celebrate all the sins that Christ condemned. Indeed you transphobes and homophobes are the evil of the society to go around corrupting and perverting the proper teachings of the Bible and all the teachings of Christ.

    You can continue to lie and deny of your anti-Christ lifestyle of homophobia, transphobia and bigotry as much as you want to deceive yourself and some, but you can never deceive all nor Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. I’m only here to expose you of your wickedness.

    Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

    ————————

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

    James 2:17-18 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

  • Sims Simon

    And who are you to determine and tell others of what sexuality or who they should love ? There is only X and Y chromosomes, we don’t need your homophobic nor transphobic chromosome. And what’s next, bringing back things based on the color of the skin that people are born with to bring back segregation ?

    When you choose the Westboro doctrine to hate, you will always try to find ways and means to try to give excuses to hate by voting, legislating and supporting discrimination laws to harm others you don’t like.

    Good luck with your lifestyle to hate Christ by disobeying all of His commandments.

  • Bones

    Well they don’t think women are made in the image of God neither.

    I don’t think they are growing in Australia thankfully.

  • Sims Simon

    It is blasphemy to pervert and distort the Great Commandment and to change it to what you like to describe your actions to judge other, lie to them with lip service of love while you hate them by condemning them with man-made laws of discrimination to physically harm them.

    Judging others WRONGLY is not loving your neighbor AS YOURSELF.

    Putting discrimination laws to physically ill treat and harm the LGBT community is not loving your neighbor AS YOURSELF.

    Lying and deceiving others are not acts of loving your neighbor AS YOURSELF.

    When you transphobes and homophobes embrace the Westboro doctrine to pervert the Bible, what Christ called good you call evil, and what Christ called evil you call good.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

  • David Cohen

    Quoted from the article you were apparently too lazy to read:

    “Anderson does more than use the disparaging term. In his sermon, he stated: ‘All homos are pedophiles. There, I said it, they’re all pedophiles.'”

    “He goes on to say killing gays is the way to an AIDS-free world by Christmas.”

    – If slandering people and promoting murder does not strike you as evidence of hatred, then your mind is too twisted for further discussion to be possible.

  • It’s your right to believe the Earth is flat too of course. Reality doesn’t care what you believe.

    The Journal of Clinical Endocrinological Metabolism isn’t a fiction mag.

  • dcpdx

    I know your position is one or the other. However, it fails to engage the reality of someone who is born with both genitalia. Is it a failure on God’s part, like He didn’t know it would happen? Hardly. Therefore, perhaps we need to reconsider what we understand.

    I agree, in the majority of cases a person is either male or female. However, your binary position fails to take into account people (!) who do not fit this category (see odds here — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex). I am saying that you are doing with someone that God created and inviting you to consider how to see and care for them as such. It seems that your present argument ignores them or denies their existence.

    Consider this, based on how David writes Ps 19, we would get the impression that the world we live in is geocentric. Can you imagine having a conversation with someone who takes that view when you know the earth is heliocentric? They could rightfully argue, but the text says, the sun crosses the sky (v. 6).

    I’m arguing that you need to see the person. When Jesus heals on the Sabbath, He confronts the Pharisees who argue that this is wrong, and makes the argument that they are dealing with people, not just keeping the Law. In the context of the article, we are not talking about homosexuality or transgender people. The article is specifically about intersex.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not me, but they offend GOD. Deu 22:5 The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the LORD thy God.

  • Ruben Ponce

    50,000 yrs ? Man (Adam and Eve) has only been on this planet for approximately 6000 yrs.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not marry their victims, but pay for child support if a baby is conceived.

  • Sims Simon

    Brian Considine – hmm you only have your continual ad hominem attacks against me, and nothing else concrete nor factual, even to deny of the LAW, the Great Commandment and trying to tell me how grace can overwrite the deeds of one to follow the LAW. Indeed you are such a fool with a reprobate mind, to be a swine who don’t know what are pearls and a dog who don’t know what is sacred.

    Don’t bother praying for me, as when you are an anti-Christ transphobe and homophobe who hate Christ and the LAW, your prayers are not only in vain, but also an abomination unto Christ. That’s why you will continually fail and lose as what we have seen. When Christ is not your God for you to hate Him rather, you have utterly no authority nor power to rebuke anybody in His name.

    Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

    Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the LAW, even his prayer is an abomination.

    As said, you can continue to lie and deny of your anti-Christ lifestyle of homophobia, transphobia and bigotry as much as you want to deceive yourself and some, but you can never deceive all nor Christ, the God who has never
    ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. I’m only here to expose you of your wickedness.

    Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

    Even if you have all the time in the world, no matter how hard you keep trying to reply again, you will always fail. You can only demonstrate how you are such a fool to be trying to argue against the highest law of the entire bible, the LAW, the Great Commandment of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm.

    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..

    Again, good luck with your anti-Christ lifestyle to celebrate all the sins that Christ condemned. Indeed you transphobes and homophobes are the evil of the society to go around corrupting and perverting the proper teachings of the Bible and all the teachings of Christ.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If you don’t believe what GOD has said in HIS word (the Bible) then you can’t debate on someting you don’t believe in.
    Apparently you think this earth is too small.
    One thing for sure, there weren’t any diseases in the Garden of Eden.

  • Sims Simon

    What did GOD (Christ, not Moses, not Paul) say about homosexuality ? ….. CRICKET
    What do GOP say about homosexuality ?….. LOTS of ugly things!!

    What did GOD say about same sex marriage ? ….. CRICKET
    What do GOP say about same sex marriage ?….. LOTS of ugly things!!

    What did GOD say about divorce ? …. LOTS of ugly things!!
    What do GOP say about divorce ? …. CRICKET

    What’s the Great Commandment of GOD ? … love GOD AND love thy neighbor AS THYSELF
    What’s the Great Commandment of GOP ? … love GOP AND hate and discriminate others

    What do we call those who believe in GOD ? ….Christians, Followers of Christ
    What do we call those who believe in GOP ? ….kkkhristians/republicans/conservatives/racists/anti-Christ/homophobes

    So when GOP supporters mention about their “GOD”, very often they actually mean GOP, with their short-sightedness they can’t differentiate the small vertical bar below that letter “P” from “D”
    Is it by coincidence or by design that GOP makes that name close to resemble the word “GOD” to deceive? Satan can be very cunning, that’s why kkkhristians disguise themselves as Christians to use religion for the evil propaganda, Christ called those people wolves in sheep’s clothing and false prophets.

  • dcpdx

    On the issue of homosexuality, you should have that conversation with those who you disagree with. That seems to be outside the specific context of what I’m asking you.

    You brought up the food issue, which I sought to respectfully engage through the biblical text. While I agree that the Acts text does include and prepares Peter to embrace the Gentiles, I would also posit that it has a literal meaning.

    You raised the issue of unclean food, and I am challenging your position that OT law is normative. The texts I raise would indicate otherwise. I’ll even withdraw Acts as a supporting text but press you with the others.

    The reality is, I have no idea why you think OT dietary laws have relevance to this conversation. As I review this particular thread, it’s far off the intersex issue. I think what caught my attention was your lack of cultural awareness, as if the world only functions with a particular palate. As if God was only concerned about Western food sensibilities (and selectively so, because I don’t see many Westerners eating insects, as they did/do in the Middle East, and other parts of the world). If you want to defend OT law as normative and God as Western, you’re free to do so.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Im not going to question GOD how HE did this miracle but I read it and I believe it.
    Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

  • Ruben Ponce

    XY(males) with vagina looking appandage will never concieve, female sperms are not in him, likewise XX(females) with penis looking appandage also don’t produce male sperms.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

  • Ruben Ponce

    Go ahead and have sex with your girl while on her period, you’ll be a bloody mess.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Without consent ? Read it slowly and carefully.
    Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

  • Ruben Ponce

    The virgin Mary was JESUS mother, who do you think was HIS father ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Skin color is a race, LGBT is not a race, its a form of lifestyle. LGBT can do whatever they want or love whomever they want, just don’t expect us to accommodate your lifestyle or accept your lifestyle.

  • Jeff Preuss

    I appreciate the insight you’ve provided here, and can understand some ‘I’ folks may not want to be tacked onto the LGBTQ acronym. I think, at the end of the day, the reason ‘I’ has been added is a reaction to people who are intersex being lumped in some giant “sexual immorality” bucket with LGBTQ people. As demonstrated by some further down in these comments, people who are intersex are sometimes thought of as “less than” or immoral for the particulars of their body at birth, and that’s simply not acceptable.

    LGBT likely feel a kindred spirit with that.

  • Sims Simon

    What have Chick-Fil-A, “Sweet Melissa” bakery, Kim Davis and the San Bernardino shooters taught us about the discrimination against gays again :

    Thanks to “Christians” who cherry pick the bible and pervert Christ’s teachings of the condemnation of Divorce as in Matthew 19:3, but only take the subsequent verses to be interpreted as “traditional marriage” or “Biblical marriage” between “man and woman” as an excuse to then legislate man-made laws of hatred by legalizing discrimination towards gays, the 2 muslim shooters of the San Bernardino as a bi-national couple had no issue entering this country, to have a marriage license and to finally have a graceful burial and a honorable death certificate acknowledging their “traditional marriage” and “biblical marriage” as “a man and a woman”. While Jim Obergefell had to go through a hell of an ordeal to fight for such honor for his partner, just because of his true love to a person of the same sex.

    If those Muslim terrorists were to go the recent Oregon or Colorado “Christian” bakeries who were fined for refusing service to gay couples or any restaurant with their owner believing in the Westboro doctrine of homophobia, they would have gotten their wedding cake or other services without any questions asked as they fit the “biblical marriage” a “man and woman”. And if those terrorists couple were to go to Kim Davis, the multiple divorcee homophobic “Christian” at the Rowan County in Kentucky to apply for their marriage license, she would have issued them their marriage license without any questions as they fit her requirement of her “religious belief” that only allows her the “religious freedom” to celebrate the “Biblical marriage” as “man and woman”.

    “Christian” homophobes have so much blood on their hands when they strongly object to a gay couple expressing their love (like David and Jonathan as in 2 Samuel 1:26 I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, MORE WONDERFUL THAN THAT OF WOMEN.) who would want to exchange marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death do them part so as to live by the Golden Rule as in Matthew 7:12 to fulfill the Great Commandment of Christ, while those “Christian” homophobes will gladly celebrate all the sins of sexual immoralities of DIVORCE & adultery (Kim Davis, Rush Limbaugh, Evangelist Graham, Pam Bondi, Republican state Representative Todd Courser of Michigan and Republican Rep. Cindy Gamrat , Alabama governor Robert Bentley…), rape, pedophile (Duggars (who also had 2 accounts on AshleyMadison, the website that helps married individuals have secretive affairs!!) , “Christian” author John Perry as co-author of book with Mike Huckabee and Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore, ..) together with other sinners of murderers, homophobes, thieves, terrorists, etc.. so long as they come forth to get married as a man & a woman.

    Indeed, the topic of homosexuality helps to weed out the KKKhristians from the Christians. Although both read the bible, one group follows Christ, the God who has NEVER EVER condemned homosexuality nor same sex marriage and preached love, while the other group follow other prophets as their ‘god’ and do everything what Christ said NOT to do. Ever notice how KKKhristians address their ‘god’ mostly by the generic name ‘god’, ‘bible’, ‘scripture’, but not Jesus Christ? Many of those KKKhristians know they are going against Christ as they deceive and brainwash their followers to do likewise. Religious homophobes are just another flavor of KKKhristians, and as Christ said about those who come in His name but bear the fruit of deception, lies and hate, they are wolves in sheep’s clothing who are here to defy the Great Commandment, the highest law of the entire bible.

  • Sims Simon

    So don’t expect other people to accommodate of your anti-Christ lifestyle to defy the LAW to put hate as good, and also to accommodate of your anti-Christ lifestyle to celebrate all the sins of sexual immoralities of divorce, adultery, rape, pedophile together with other sinners of murderers, homophobes, thieves, terrorists, etc.. so long as they come forth to get married as a man & a woman.

    Good luck with your Westboro doctrine to celebrate all the sins that Christ condemned.

  • That and, in particular, the pain caused by people other than the person themselves deciding what’s best for their body and identity. In this case, in a very invasive manner — intersex babies are usually “fixed” by doctors soon after birth and arbitrarily assigned a sex according to whatever would be the easiest surgical operation.

  • Well, if we’re talking about the U.S. religious right, then God is behind people being born to parents happening to be poor (so they themselves are poor), God is behind people being born to parents happening to be disabled (so they themselves are disabled), God is behind people being born to parents happening to be mixed-race (so they themselves are mixed race), and it goes on.

    That they’re ‘born that way’ and are as God made them doesn’t mean that, according to U.S. religious right dogma, they don’t become ‘parasites’ taking resources that society needs for the better elite class of strong, powerful, and dominant Christian men that are just plain born to rule (because said men just are better at everything, don’t you know). It’s the mythology that back in the 1950s the U.S. was a wonderful utopia with no flaws just like a Norman Rockwell painting and we can achieve that again if we just crack down about these unfortunate ‘parasites’ ruining things for everyone. Then, America will be God’s perfect paradise on Earth once again.

  • What if acting ‘manly’ and ‘womanly’ were just personal behaviors that weren’t used as a justification for people to be hurt, killed, and such?

    What if people could just be allowed to treat each other in idealistic terms, allowing others to differ in various ways, rather than insisting in forcing themselves into other people’s personal lives?

  • What if we stopped assuming behavior is related to a binary gender condition altogether?

    Funny thing: There’s more discrepancy within sexes than across them. As in men are more different from men than they are from women, and vice-versa. Any two women might have completely different tastes and behavior, but there are undoubtedly going to be men who share those tastes and behavior.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

  • Sims Simon

    Homophobes are so foolish to be trying so hard to go against the law of the land, as set by the highest court of the country.
    And no wonder homophobe KKKhristians who Christ called them as wolves in sheep’s clothing to be disguised as “Christians”, are also so foolish to sacrifice the gift of eternal life to go against the highest law of the entire bible, the LAW, the Great Commandment of Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm, for them to put hate as good to ill treat gays who they have judged wrongly. Homophobes also demonstrate their foolishness to often mention that homophobia is not written in the bible (just as pedophilia, terrorism, hacking, etc…) just failed to see what the LAW really said on what act is acceptable to then be rewarded with eternal life or salvation to be saved.
    Madness is what we can call those homophobes when their irrational fears and hate have consumed them. That’s why they demonstrate their fear by trying to deny of that word, Homophobe, and putting laws to “protect” their so-called ‘religious freedom’ to judge and hate others, laws to ‘protect’ their so-called ‘traditional marriage’ or ‘biblical marriage’ to celebrate all the sins of sexual immoralities of divorce & adultery (Kim Davis, Rush Limbaugh, Evangelist Graham, Pam Bondi, …), rape, pedophile (Duggars, “Christian” author John Perry as co-author of book with Mike Huckabee and Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore, ..) together with other sinners of murderers, homophobes, thieves, terrorists, etc.. so long as they come forth to get married as a man & a woman as the so-called “God’s Design”.

    Even the prophets who God chose in the old testaments like Moses, King Solomon, Abraham, and so on, they all preferred to distance themselves from those homophobic kkkhristians and their belief of “biblical marriage” to instead have many wives and concubines rather to be blessed by God. And Christ also preferred to stay away from the “biblical marriage” to become one flesh as what rapists do after they leave their parent’s house, as He rather hung around with 12 dudes, to even be caught pants down with a young man as in Mark 14:51-52 (“A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.). It must have been some private moments of Christ being with this young man for lessons of John 3:16 on His love just as David and Jonathan did to each other as in 2 Samuel 1:26 I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, MORE WONDERFUL THAN THAT OF WOMEN !

    Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us. Other religions also preach similar rule of karma (do good reap good, do bad read bad), empathy, compassion, mercy, live and let live, etc…

    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal LAW according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    And only the foolish homophobes will still try to reply to this comment with lies and deceptions of words NOT from Christ or their misinterpretation of the condemnation of divorce between a man and a woman as the justification of their madness to celebrate the mortal sin against the LAW to ill treat gays with discrimination laws to prevent a gay couple who wants to exchange marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death do them part so as to live by the Golden Rule as in Matthew 7:12 to fulfill the Law, the Great Commandment of Christ.

  • Sims Simon

    You are as foolish and absurd of another religious group with reprobate mind, trying to quote Exodus 35:2 (For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death.) to then justify their stance to vote, legislate and support man-made laws of discrimination of hate towards those who work on Sabbath. Indeed you religious homophobes do not know what are pearls nor what is sacred to be trampling all over the LAW, by abusing the Bible for non-essential Biblical verse.

    Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us.

    Good luck hating Christ to not obey His commandments and to commit the mortal sin against the LAW, the Great Commandment of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Opps. Excuse my error, had too much wine last night. Meant to say, we can’t accept their sinful lifestyle.

  • Ruben Ponce

    No, can’t believe its flat, but I do believe the medical community make mistakes, and GOD does not.

  • gimpi1

    Well If God set up this system, the system is God’s responsibility, and if it creates awful outcomes, those outcomes are God’s fault.

    Personally, firstly, I can think of no finite crime that warrants infinite punishment. Secondly, belief or non-belief in something that fundamentally can’t be proven is a piss-poor basis for judging someone. Thirdly, If you do demand someone believe something, the onus is on you (or in this case, God) is obliged to provide absolute, incontrovertible proof. Not providing that proof and judging and hideously punishing people for not accepting the thing you have refused to prove is not moral behavior, no matter how you look at it.

    If a government was to demand everyone follow a specific belief, but offer no reason for the belief and execute anyone who deviated from the belief, you would not hesitate to call them immoral. I feel that an all-powerful God ought to be held to at least the standard we’d hold human organizations to.

  • Bones

    God isnt offended by women wearing jeans……..

    You are……

  • Ruben Ponce

    Correct, its not a failure on GOD’s part because he knows us before HE formed us. Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee,. I also consider rhe fact that people, predominately in third world countries, deformability in child birth are more prevalent, however its mostly extra appandages that serve no purpose and can be surgically removed. Psalms ch19 vs 1-14 , David is talking about the awesomeness of GOD, not about the universe, so geocentric and heliocentric don’t play a part here.When JESUS healed on the sabbath HE was arguing if it is right or wrong to do good on the sabbath.

  • Ruben Ponce

    The Bible does not specifically has to say certain words that we use today in modern times like lesbian, gay, queer, train, cars, etc. etc.. These are the words that GOD spoke to Moses concerning LGBT, Moses didn’t conjure this up on his own.
    Lev 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.
    Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
    And these are the words that GOD gave to Paul, Paul didn’t conjure these on his own.
    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

  • And you get to decide what GOD does or does not do, can and cannot do, based upon your own beliefs.

    You don’t believe medical journals or biology texts, so I doubt you’ll believe video evidence either. Never mind, here’s some anyway.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/17/gaza.gender.id/

  • Ruben Ponce

    Because as culture changes we don’t have to embrace their values. Once we accept CHRIST we are now grafted into GOD’S people (Israel). We don’t have that license to live in sin just because we can go to CHRIST and ask for forgiveness. GOD set specific commands and statues in the OT and JESUS came to graft us(gentiles) to HIS family. Many foods we are not allowed to each including pork chops.The dietary issue came up because as we pointed out about GOD creating only male and female and I referenced scriptures from the OT, some in here brought out also if we referenced the OT, then we couldn’t eat lobsters and crawfish and what not. But GOD is specific and how we ought to live both in the OT and NT. And I stand by what GOD said when creating humans, and before he created you and me, HE knew us before HE put us on our mother’s belly, that being said how can HE not be sure to make us either male or female.

  • Isa Almisry

    St. John “9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from his birth. 2 And His Disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him. 4 We must work the works of Him Who sent Me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
    “35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered, “And who is He, sir, that I may believe in Him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have seen Him, and it is He Who speaks to you.” 38 He said, “Lord, I believe”; and he worshiped Him. 39 Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may become blind.” “

  • Isa Almisry

    You’re talking to the wrong person. I did the documentation for a psych hospital for five years, and saw first hand the truth of the joke “How do you tell the patients from the doctors in a psych hospital? Answer: the patients get better and the doctors have keys.”

    As for bullying, no one here-or elsewhere-advocated that. But insist that you bring your penis into the girls locker room, and you’re asking for trouble…

    As for suicide, those suffering schizophrenia commit it at higher rates than claimed for the “transgendered.” Adopting their delusions doesn’t lower it.

  • Isa Almisry

    “What if acting ‘manly’ and ‘womanly’ were just personal behaviors that weren’t used as a justification for people to be hurt, killed, and such?”

    Still would not change a man into a woman, nor vice versa.

    “What if people could just be allowed to treat each other in idealistic terms, allowing others to differ in various ways, rather than insisting in forcing themselves into other people’s personal lives?”

    Like insisting in forcing themselves into the other sex’s bathrooms, locker rooms or showers?

  • Isa Almisry

    “Paul tells us that in Christ all things are created (Col 1).”

    He also tells us that nothing was deformed in Him, “For in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross. And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before Him.”

  • Isa Almisry
  • You’re talking to the wrong person. I did the documentation for a psych hospital for five years

    You were a clerk, and this gives you special insight in mental health? Are you aware that there’s a difference between the mental health of people in a facility for whom all else has failed, and the people going about their daily lives? I was actually trained as a psychiatrist and I don’t make the mistake of assuming I can diagnose a person’s ills so easily.

    As for bullying, no one here-or elsewhere-advocated that.

    No, no one ever calls harassment by its proper name. Many Christians have this bizarre version of love which entails harrying people to change, no matter how much harm it causes to try.

    But insist that you bring your penis into the girls locker room, and you’re asking for trouble…

    As opposed to the reception a transwoman would get by going into the men’s locker room? It sounds more like we should be having a conversation about why, in a country where we shame people for having or seeing naked bodies, we make it unavoidable in locker rooms.

    Adopting their delusions doesn’t lower it.

    A person experiencing a break in reality is capable of adopting new delusions that enable self-harm. A transperson does not experience significant changes in body perception, nor does contradicting these perceptions typically succeed in altering them. Statistically, those who receive therapies intended to nullify gender dysphoria rather than correct it have resulted in suicide rates as high as 600% of patients who receive other therapies.

    I should also note that a great number of schizophrenic sufferers adopt delusions related to religious mania — experiencing voices they perceive to be from God, angels, Satan, etc. Banging on the religious drum often worsens their outcomes, feeding the delusions with abstract, contradictory, bizarre and terrifying imagery.

    May you find harmony, man of clay.

  • Bob Altemeyer once noted that authoritarians are oddly prone to disproportionate weighting of expert analysis — that if a large number of scientists issued an opinion on a subject and one scientist posed a contradictory argument, they were much more likely than others to believe that the issue was in doubt, or worse, that the lone dissenter was more likely to be correct regardless of the evidence against them. This is likely explained by authoritans’ tendency to begin with the conclusion they like, first, and disregard inconsistencies in the evidence leading to that conclusion. For example, given the argument,

    All fish live in the sea.
    Sharks live in the sea.
    Therefore, sharks are fish.

    — authoritarians are likely to agree. If they are asked why, their answer is likely to be, “Because sharks are fish.”

  • dcpdx

    What you suggest is a bit troubling, if I understand what you are saying. Your implication is that people such as those with Down’s syndrome were not intended by God’s plan. I’m interested to hear how you explain that through Scripture. The text you cite out of Colossians is about our relationship with Him. (I would also note, that reconciliation is not the same thing as not being deformed.)

    In Colossians there is a distinction between creation/existence as a result of Christ, and salvation. This is not the same thing as congenital birth defects. If that is your argument, you’ll need to explain the text and the rationale.

    Pressing your assertion further… Does God know and plan our existence? Does He plan our genotype and phenotype? Does He plan deformities? Again, the Ps 139 text seems to indicate this is so.

    As far as Calvin and Arminius are concerned, it is my understanding that the main differences are with regard to salvation — predetermined salvation versus choice. If you could explain how Calvin and predetermination of birth are connected, I’d like to hear about that. As you seemingly describe God, albeit it’s been limited, He would be nothing more than a blind watchmaker, a deist view of God. (I’m not saying you’re a deist, but I’m puzzled by how you view Him non-deterministically.)

    Thanks for the engagement.

  • dcpdx

    Agreed, but not sure how you are intending for me to understand your response.

    This is certainly an argument for God preordaining this man’s blindness and salvation. Could the argument also be made for all who are born blind — that God preordains their blindness and, if they come to faith, their salvation? (This salvation piece seems much more in line with your Calvin remark. I recognize folks disagree so that’s not an issue for me.)

    The text has two interesting aspects to it. One, is it a general statement about all people who are blind? Or, does it refer to this particular blind man? I think it can be about both.

    In your citation of the text, what are you saying?

  • Isa Almisry

    “It’s called CAIS.”
    …and it occurs in 1 out of 13,000 births.
    How about the other 12,999?

    Btw, some suffering (correct term) from CAIS don’t even have a vagina, and the ones who do have underdeveloped ones with no functioning. They do have testes, which often have to be removed lest they develop cancer.

  • Ruben Ponce

    C’mon Sims, I know you don’t think Jonathan and David were lover. Its funny tho if you think they were. And I don’t think anybody in their right mind condones the San Bernadino murders, or approve of the kkk. However the 1st amendment to the Constitution gives every American to practice their religion wherever they may be, 24/7.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Sims, you can’t point to bad behaviors to justify other bad behaviors. And nobody is defying any laws that I know of.

  • dcpdx

    Okay, I’m following you on the grafting in. I also think I understand your male and female piece. But the dietary law part is throwing me.

    You are making a statement about behavior and even ceremonial law that makes the OT a constant. Further, you have elevated what God says about food to the same thing as what He says about salvation. By elevating what God has to say about food to a normative practice, it makes me curious about how you live. Do you keep the food laws, dress codes, does your home have a parapet, do you stone children who are disrespectful to their parents, do you keep the sabbath, do you wear a phylactery, plus all the other OT laws set for Israel? If you do not, which one’s have you discarded? Why? (Now, I’m more interested in hearing about what you think the Christian life looks like? Don’t get me wrong, it’s not an attack, but it certainly would help to understand your perspective.)

    Yes, God is sure about our gender. But, that’s where it ends. Do you, I or a doctor know the gender of an intersex person? God knowing is a lot different from our knowing. Therefore, wouldn’t it follow that we should practice a little humility on the things we don’t know about? I think it’s probably a good bet that there are things in Scripture that we THINK we KNOW but could be pretty far off.

  • dcpdx

    not sure where your stat came from but this is from ISNA — http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

  • Ruben Ponce

    Special emphasis on what he said, my brother: 2 Samuel 1:26 I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; . SCOTUS doesn’t have power to make laws.
    I gave you too many passages both in the OT and NT but you refuse to acknowledge them.
    Mark 14:51-52. He had his body (naked) covered;, don’t you ? And they tried to apprehend him and he escaped, just like Peter who denied HIM three times and fled. They were persecuting all followers of JESUS.
    No such scripture on JESUS and this man being alone together.
    And as far as all the other scriptures you posted, it will always be like this”love the sinner, hate the sin”

  • Ruben Ponce

    Again, love the sinner, hate the sin. Homosexuality is a sin. So this means I must love the homosexual and try to convince him(they) to leave this sinful lifestyle, take a 180 turn in your life and live how GOD intended you to live.

  • Ruben Ponce

    GOD did not make us robots, HE gave us a mind and freedom to choose. GOD is omnipresent. Don’t you think HE knew the serpent was in the garden also. The freedom was given to Adam and Eve and the rest of the story, everybody knows.
    JESUS says it over and over about an eternity in hell for refusing to accept HIM and live a righteous life. And nobody is judging no one, telling people of their wrong doings and the consequences it has is not judging, much like parents tell their kids(30’s and 40’s) not to do this or that.
    How much more proof do you need ? Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
    And if you still demand more proof, then you don’t have any Faith,
    Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I just quoted you a scripture on what women shouldn’t wear that pertains to a man, if you don’t believe even as it is written, then you can’t debate that which you don’t believe.

  • Ruben Ponce

    A person cannot produce both male sperms and female sperms, its either one or the other. If a person can produce both sets of sperms, they would be able to impregnant themselves. One of those genitalia is an appandage that serves no purpose and can be surgically removed.

  • Ruben Ponce

    My dietary is simple, for meats beef, chicken and turkey, I don’t eat sea food anymore, I developed a distaste for fish. We need to differentiate which laws and rituals were given to Israelites and which were given to all. The Ten Commendments were given to the Israelites(Moses) and every law in it pertains to all the world. Certain rituals belongs to the Levites only because they worked in the temple.We now have man made laws that prohibits stoning and so we must follow this laws. I don’t carry a phylactery I carry my Bible wherever I go(even when I travel, I have one at work also). In the OT there weren’t no Bibles hence a phylactery was used. As far as sabbaths(I must admit I don’t know if its Saturdays or Sundays) but two services on Sundays, morning and evening, plus some leisure time inbetween takes up most if not all of the day. As far as feeling being attacked, non taken, I don’t owe anybody nothing and Im not ashame living for CHRIST, thats why I don’t mind revealing myself to all. I don’t proclaim to know the Bible, but if its written, then I believe it. Im not attacking intersex, what Im saying is some people are born with defects and with extra members (one male, one female) one is an appandage that serves no purpose and will be useless and can be surgically removed due to embarressment or self esteem.

  • Bones

    And I can quote scripture where God has rapists marrying their rape victims.

    It proves nothing.

    That you have to hide behind the Bible to justify your own bigotry and stupidity says more about you.

    The pharisees believed the same as you.

  • Bones

    What about the other 12999.? Do you consider yourself superior?

    The point is they’really human beings like everyone else. That’s difficult for people like you to understand.

    And some aren’t ‘suffering’ as some aren’t even aware of it until later in life that they grew up as women but had XY chromosomes.

    And thanks for pointing out that their male sex organs try to kill them.

    Most suffering is caused by people who think intersex are somehow less human or, as we’ve seen in this thread, satanic.

  • Bones

    How do you think the Incarnation happened?

    Do you think God penetrated Mary with his cock?

  • Sims Simon

    Are these your best excuses to still hate gays and Christ to not obey any single words of what He spoke of with His own mouth when He walked as a man in flesh ?

    Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us.

    As said before you are as foolish and absurd to be quoting all those non-essential stuffs not from Christ to lie and deceive, so as to justify your mortal sin that is against all the teachings of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm.

    Your anti-Christ lifestyle to defy the LAW, is so obvious in you.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”
    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Sims Simon

    Do hetero friends go around professing their love towards each other to then compare it with that of the opposite sex ?
    When hate has completely blinded to practice your anti-Christ religion of the Westboro cult, such that you only put man-made laws against gays to marry, but freely marry any sinners with sexual immoralities, murder, terrorism, etc… you anti-Christ homophobes demonstrate how you accept their lifestyle of sin, thus you celebrate all those sins that Christ condemned.

    Just as you claim to believe in the 1st amendment for you to practice your anti-Christ religion, gays also have their right to practice their Christian religion to love Christ and obey His commands to love one another as thyself. Thus they can marry the person they choose to love.

    Good luck again with your anti-Christ lifestyle to embrace the Westboro doctrine.

  • Sims Simon

    SCOTUS has the authority to dismantle and strike down any law that is unconstitutional, thus making the law void, meaning that law that was previously enforced, can no longer be enforced!

    I gave you all the words of Christ emphasizing even the OT, yet you refuse to acknowledge them and Him, as indeed you hate Christ as an anti-Christ homophobe who don’t know what are pearls, and what is sacred.

    Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Good luck.

  • Sims Simon

    Only anti-Christ like you will purposely blaspheme and pervert the proper teachings of Christ and the LAW to make it suit your anti-Christ agenda to call what Christ called good as evil, and what Christ called evil as good.

    The commandment “To love thy neighbor AS THYSELF” and the Golden rule are not suggestions written in the bible, but they are the LAW, the highest set of laws of the entire bible that Followers of Christ obey and do to have eternal life. Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us. Other religions also preach similar rule of karma (do good reap good, do bad read bad), empathy, compassion, mercy, live and let live, etc…

    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal LAW according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.
    John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

    Homophobes who profess to be religious, and use words not from Christ but from Moses and Paul, to lie and deceive to justify why they will not follow the LAW, will be condemned and will NOT have eternal life. There’s no such thing as Christian homophobe, discrimination and hate are NOT values of Christ. And that’s why homophobes will continually lose again and again when they defy the LAW, the highest law of the entire bible.

    When homophobes disobey the LAW, they have hated Christ, and Christ doesn’t know them.
    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Homophobes will all perish and will not have eternal life for failing to do the will of the Father( Believing in Christ – John 3:16 and to obey His commands of the LAW, the Great Commandment. John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”), for the wages of the mortal sin is death. Indeed the LAW condemns that act of hatred of any kind for one to treat others badly, to condemn homophobia, just as it condemns other acts of mortal sin for the crime of racism, pedophilia, adultere, murder, theft, rape, terrorism, hacking, etc…

  • Sims Simon

    When you are an anti-Christ who hate all the teachings of Christ, what He called good you call evil, what He called evil you call good.

    When hate has completely blinded you , you simply deny of your mortal sin that is against the LAW, for you to judge other wrongly, yet hate them with man-made laws of discrimination to physically harm them.

    Good luck with your anti-Christ lifestyle to hate Christ.

    You can continue to lie and deny of your anti-Christ lifestyle of homophobia and bigotry as much as you want to deceive yourself and some, but you can never deceive all nor Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. I’m only here to expose you of your wickedness.

    Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

  • Bones

    I’m married.

    I sleep with my wife every night.

    She is never ‘unclean’…..

    That is a despicable description of women made by ignorant bronze age types who didn’t know why women bled……

    Once again this is the type of religion that Jesus came to destroy….

  • Sims Simon

    Brian Considine – Interesting to see how you have quickly deleted all your comments that were filled of lies, deceptions, hatred and insults to Christ when you demonstrated so much hatred towards His words that I’ve used to expose of your anti-Christ lifestyle to be a person who embrace the Westboro doctrine to become a transphobe and homophobe.

    Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

    As said before to be mentioned in the Bible, when you choose to turn your ear away from the LAW, your prayers are an abomination, so don’t bother praying for me as your effort of hate is useless.

    Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the LAW, even his prayer is an abomination.

    But here was your last message which luckily I received as notification before you deleted it, in trying to reply to me in response of your anger to have been exposed of your wickedness and trying so hard still to intimidate me with your lies, deceptions and hate towards Christ :

    Brian Considine wrote – “Oh my goodness, the vileness that gets spewed by those who are as hateful and bigoted as you are, Simple-Minded. You have failed to demonstrate any grace or love in anything you have written. But I will pray that the Lord will show you the way into his Kingdom of love, peace and righteousness (right thinking). Take care. ”

    11:07 p.m., Thursday May 19
    Other comments by Brian Considine

    ——————————————————————-

    Love is when I show you the way to eternal life via the words of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. Hate is what you do rather to use words not from Him, among other lies, for you to justify your defiance to the LAW to put man-made laws of discrimination to physically harm people you disagree with. If you want grace and love, practice what you preach instead of being a hypocrite liar to demand of it when you have casted the 1st stone to practice hatred towards others. So, reap what you sow, to be rebuked and exposed of your wickedness, but I don’t do what you do rather to be voting, legislating and supporting man-made laws of hate to harm people physically, this committing the mortal sin of hate, just as murderers, pedophiles, terrorist, rapists of Sodom, etc…

    When you hate Christ, all His words are words of hate to you.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Good luck with your anti-Christ lifestyle to embrace the Westboro doctrine and to be hating gays and Christ so much.

  • Bones

    Even from an insane fundamentalist interpretation it is clear that man (“adam”) means mankind or humanity. It’s hard to believe this sort of thinking still exists,especially when Jesus sort to destroy it.

    This is a clear example as to why we need to make the Bible gender inclusive.

    Genesis 5:1

    ” In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. 2 He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them Man in the day when they were created.”

    tha tha tha tha that’s all Folks!

  • Sims Simon

    CNS, Christianpost, NOM, AFA, Ted, Cruz, Marco Rubio, Franklin Graham among most Republicans, etc… just like many so called “Christian” websites and people in the world, are all anti-Christ organizations and people to be wolves in sheep’s clothing. You anti-Christ people promote all sort of lies and deceptions to justify your belief in evil to promote division and hate among people who disagree with your doctrine and beliefs. That’s why I’m not surprise to the length that you people will do to justify your evil and wicked deeds of hate, by putting lies after lies.

    The commandment “To love thy neighbor AS THYSELF” and the Golden rule are not suggestions written in the bible, but they are the LAW, the highest set of laws of the entire bible that Followers of Christ obey and do to have eternal life. Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us. Other religions also preach similar rule of karma (do good reap good, do bad read bad), empathy, compassion, mercy, live and let live, etc…

    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal LAW according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.
    John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

    Homophobes who profess to be religious, and use words not from Christ but from Moses and Paul, to lie and deceive to justify why they will not follow the LAW, will be condemned and will NOT have eternal life. There’s no such thing as Christian homophobe, discrimination and hate are NOT values of Christ. And that’s why homophobes will continually lose again and again when they defy the LAW, the highest law of the entire bible.

    When homophobes disobey the LAW, they have hated Christ, and Christ doesn’t know them.
    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Homophobes will all perish and will not have eternal life for failing to do the will of the Father( Believing in Christ – John 3:16 and to obey His commands of the LAW, the Great Commandment. John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”), for the wages of the mortal sin is death. Indeed the LAW condemns that act of hatred of any kind for one to treat others badly, to condemn homophobia, just as it condemns other acts of mortal sin for the crime of racism, pedophilia, adultere, murder, theft, rape, terrorism, hacking, etc…

  • Bones

    You have no idea what you are writing about…..

    “Women with complete androgen insensitivity are born phenotypically female, despite having a 46,XY karyotype.

    CAIS is not usually suspected until after puberty unless an inguinal hernia presents.

    Although rare, a few cases of women with CAIS and fully developed Müllerian structures have been reported. In one exceptional case, a 22-year-old with CAIS was found to have a normal cervix, uterus, and fallopian tubes.[38] In an unrelated case, a fully developed uterus was found in a 22-year-old adult with CAIS.[37]”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome

    Even has pictures for the likes of you who can’t read…..

  • Bones

    There’s no debate because it didn’t happen….

    There was no Garden of Eden….there was no talking snake……there was no tree of knowledge of good and evil…..God wasn’t walking around looking for adam and eve…..God didn’t curse women with childbirth……

    None of it..

    It is all myths and legends.

  • Bones

    Baha…. no….. that’s not it…..

    Deuteronomy 22

    28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.”

    Wow, lucky girl gets to be raped all her days……

  • Bones

    Then the aborigines were here before Adam and Eve….by about 44 000 years …..at least

  • Bones

    God is not offended by what people wear, or tattoos, or what they eat, or women bleeding or people who are sick….

    Jesus showed us what God is like….

    Nothing like yours…..

  • Bones

    There’s nothing there about God having sex with Mary…..

    God doesn’t create through sex…..he creates through speaking into being….

    Psalm 33

    “For He spoke, and it was done;

    He commanded, and it stood fast.”

    Genesis 1

    “Then God said, “Let there be…..and it was so. ”

    John 1:1 Jesus is God’s spoken Word….

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

    So no, God doesn’t need a penis and didn’t root Mary.

    Honestly…..

    I can’t believe people can be so ignorant….

  • Bones

    I had Christian schizo friends who would go off their meds because they believed they were healed and would have all sorts of delusions….

    Next minute they were back in the mental hospital…..

  • Bones

    Actually the Bible tells you to kill him…..

  • Sims Simon

    Well, no wonder you are trying to play the role of God yourself, to judge what you like and don’t like and then pass judgement unto them. No wonder you hate all the teachings of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm, as all of His teachings are against your agenda of hate and discrimination, in addition that He had long hair, walked around dressed in a robe, was caught pants down as in Mark 14:51-52 (“A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.”) , hung around 12 dudes, and didn’t marry any women.

  • Isa Almisry

    your ranting is too long to disentangle.

    Kim Davis’ previous marriages predate her conversion to Christianity.

    I haven’t seen a Christian defense of anything the Bernardino couple did, but I have seen plenty of secular/atheist ones. You can thank the latter for their “graceful burial” and “honorable death certificate.”

    “the God who has NEVER EVER condemned homosexuality nor same sex marriage and preached love”
    He preached about hell a lot (St. Paul, btw, never does). And stated quite clearly “Have you not read that He Who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”

    It seems that the ilk will gladly celebrate all the sins of sexual immoralities of adultery, rape, etc. of Slick Willie Bill Clinton etc. so long as they come forth to redefine marriage and the sexes from how the Creator defined them.

    I have to bow to your obvious expertise in hate.

  • Isa Almisry

    “Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger

    And the staff in whose hands is My indignation” Isaiah 10:5

  • Sims Simon

    For you to assert of my ranting being too long to disentangle, shows how you can’t even digest what I wrote to describe the actions that people like you and Kim Davis do, yet you act as if you know the whole Bible.

    And indeed, by telling me more about St Paul, and to demonstrate how you celebrate all the sins that Christ condemned for you to freely marry those sinners as long as they come forth as a man and a woman, shows again how you know nothing of what Christ really preached with His own mouth when He walked as a man in flesh. And to disprove you further of your assertion and blasphemy to put words into Christ’s mouth about your definition of marriage, God chosen spokesmen like Moses, Abraham, King Solomon among others all failed to have your so-called “biblical marriage” as they had many wives and concubines rather!

    What is even worst of people like you and Kim Davis is your continual lies, just as she swore to uphold the US Constitution as an oath of office, yet she spit of the Bible to not do what she took oath of. She lied numerous times about the Pope and the meeting of people in Peru ‘praying’ for her. She steals money from tax payers as her salary and refuse to do her job as a civil servant. And just as you and her do, you lie about the condemnation of divorce between a man and a woman to be asserted as the definition of marriage.

    Hate is when you lie and deceive on purpose to justify that your acts of wickedness of you to vote, legislate and support man-made laws of discrimination to physically harm people you disagree with. Love is when one tells people like you that you are committing the mortal sin of hate rather, to be hating gays, Christ and disobeying all of His teachings.

    Indeed, only anti-Christ like you would be going around to be doing all those wicked and evil things that are against all the teachings of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. John Boehner is indeed right to be commenting on people who have the same belief as you, to call Ted Cruz as Lucifer in the flesh.

    You should worry more about the log in your own eyes than trying so very hard to be telling others of the speck of dust that is not even there in gays who want to exchange marriage vows to live by the LAW of the Great Commandment, to the same sex person they choose to love in all circumstances of their lives till death to them part.

    Good luck!

  • Sims Simon

    Woe to you homophobes who lie and deceive others to put discrimination and hate as “good” and the highest law of the entire bible(Great Commandment) of equality and love as “bad” – Christ’s version of Isaiah 5:20. Homophobes will all perish and not have eternal life, for the wages of their mortal sin is death.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

    James 2:17-18 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

  • Isa Almisry

    “What about the other 12999.? Do you consider yourself superior?”

    No, just normal.

    Demanding that the 12,999 be redefined in view of the 1….THAT’s surely a feeling of superiority.

    “The point is they’really human beings like everyone else. That’s difficult for people like you to understand.”

    Not difficult to understand at all. They have human X/Y gonosomes, not reptile ZW ones.

    Some human beings are born deaf. That does not mean deafness makes a human being, as it does in some species of animal.

    “And some aren’t ‘suffering’ as some aren’t even aware of it until later in life that they grew up as women but had XY chromosomes.”

    Plenty of people are born with a ticking time bomb with congenital hearing loss not occurring until later in life. The suffer from the congenital condition all their life, however, even before it manifests itself.

    “And thanks for pointing out that their male sex organs try to kill them.”

    They kill other men too-just look at the prostate cancer rate.

    “Most suffering is caused by people who think intersex are somehow less human or, as we’ve seen in this thread, satanic.”
    Sufferers of the far more frequent Turner’s Syndrome, Klinefelter Syndrome, etc. would disagree.

    At the rate of 0.018% births, they would have to attract a lot more attention, but if you make their exception the rule, you might achieve the mass suffering you seek.

  • Isa Almisry

    “Bob Altemeyer once noted that authoritarians are oddly prone to disproportionate weighting of expert analysis”

    You’re the one who appealed to the “experts'” authority, not I. I’m sticking with the lone dissenter Aristarchus of Samos over Ptolemaic masses.

    You also skipped the part that sharks are indeed fish, although not all fish live in the sea, including sharks.

  • Isa Almisry

    You missed “woman loves man.”

    And “men love men” and “women love women” die out.

    Hating the order of creation is when the trouble starts.

  • Isa Almisry

    again, your ranting is too long to disentangle.

    To paraphrase “Not everyone who says ‘Lord, I love you!’ ‘Lord, I love you!’ will enter the Kingdom,” much less those who mistake lust for others as love for others.

    “May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you…save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.”-St. Jude

  • Sims Simon

    See, again when you hate Christ you hate to read anything of what He preached in the LAW, His Great Commandment.

    Indeed, not everyone who says to the Lord I love will enter the Kingdom of God, as only those who love Him by OBEYING His commandments of the LAW, will live.

    Good luck again with your anti-Christ lifestyle to hate gays, Christ by not obeying the LAW.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

    James 2:17-18 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

    Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the LAW, even his prayer is an abomination.

  • Isa Almisry

    “I would also note, that reconciliation is not the same thing as not being deformed.”

    Sin is not a deformity of God’s creation?
    Which is not say that the deformed are not created by God in His image and likeness (otherwise, why not abort when the amnio shows Down’s Syndrome) anymore than God created sinners because He created Adam who sinned.

    Healing the blind, lame, deaf, mute etc. formed an integrate part of Christ’s ministry for a reason. Like sin, disability was not what God planned, but He is able to use it to His purpose (cf. what Joseph had to say on that score, Genesis 50:20).

    God is limited only from our perspective and only by Himself, by His forbearance. Nothing compelled Him to give man free will.

    Mortality is the ultimate deformity of humanity. God did not say “eat the fruit and I will kill you.” He said “eat the fruit and you will die.”

    I’m not sure about acting as spokesman for Calvin. Abp. St. John Chrysostom sums up a description of God in addressing Him “You it was Who called us from nothingness into being, and when we had fallen, raised us up and ceased not to do all things until You brought us into Your Kingdom which is to come…”, and I subscribe to that.

  • Isa Almisry

    “I was actually trained as a psychiatrist ”

    Explains a lot.

  • There’s someone who makes occasional appearances on Patheos blogs who I’ve long suspected has schizophrenia, and it very definitely has taken on influences from religious sources — he believes he is the reincarnation of numerous people, including Jesus Christ, and regularly pronounces judgments upon people’s souls (he damned me to several cycles of demeaning reincarnations awhile back!) when he’s not seeing undeniable patterns within the tapestry of the universe alluding to the coming apocalypse. Really, really big into numerology, especially where it relates to taking words apart and comparing alphanumeric values.

    The funny thing is that even with as dysfunctional as you’d think someone who thinks they are Jesus Christ and on the verge of personally passing judgment on every soul in the cosmos would be, he actually maintains a fairly functional day to day life, as far as I’m aware. He’s in the music industry and seems to be attending and participating in shows regularly, last I knew.

  • Sims Simon

    Yet when Christ spoke about what act is considered good to be rewarded with eternal life in saying “Do this and you will live” in the LAW, the Great Commandment of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm, you turn your ears away from the LAW as indeed people like you who have embrace the Westboro doctrine to believe in words not from Christ, you hate Christ.

    Your continual ranting of lies to justify your wicked deed of sin to hate, are nothing but deceptions and you to be living in denialism of your mortal sin. When you do not know nor understand the LAW, you have no idea what act is considered sin or not.

    The commandment “To love thy neighbor AS THYSELF” and the Golden rule are not suggestions written in the bible, but they are the LAW, the highest set of laws of the entire bible that Followers of Christ obey and do to have eternal life. Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us. Other religions also preach similar rule of karma (do good reap good, do bad read bad), empathy, compassion, mercy, live and let live, etc…

    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal LAW according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.
    John 13:35 “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

    Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the LAW, even his prayer is an abomination.

  • Isa Almisry

    Although you veered off topic….
    “What if acting ‘manly’ and ‘womanly’ were just personal behaviors that weren’t used as a justification for people to be hurt, killed, and such?”

    Since they deny the obvious, what would a “transgendered” person identify without “manly” and “womanly” personal behaviors?

    no one here, nor, for instance, the NC legislature and executive administration did not justify any hurting or killing.

    back to the topic-lacking personal behaviors still will not alter the XX/XY norm. Nor will it change a man into woman nor vice versa.

    “What if people could just be allowed to treat each other in idealistic terms, allowing others to differ in various ways, rather than insisting in forcing themselves into other people’s personal lives?”
    you mean, like insisting on forcing your penis into the girls’ personal locker room?

  • Isa Almisry

    The Greatest Commandment is neither “Anything goes,” nor “All is condoned.”

  • Thank you for confirming that you do have authoritarian leanings! The point wasn’t that the conclusion is accurate, it’s that the logic used to arrive at that conclusion is faulty. Authoritarians, however, are prone to failing to observe when their logic is insufficient to justify the conclusion they have drawn. They like that conclusion and mentally disregard flaws on their logic in order to arrive at what they “know to be true.”

    Also, you completely missed the point of disproportionate weighting. The point is not that experts disagree, the point is that there is a firmly established consensus among a large body of experts, yet you seem under the impression that as long as someone disagrees, the issue isn’t quite settled, or that the dissenters are the ones who’ve drawn the correct conclusion and the vast majority of other experts must be wrong or lying.

  • Isa Almisry

    I would be, in view of the life of David Reimer, more interested in the outcome of her/his life.

  • Bones

    No one’s redefining the 12,999.

    Where the hell do you get that from?

    Do you feel threatened by intersex people?

    “Sufferers of the far more frequent Turner’s Syndrome, Klinefelter Syndrome, etc. would disagree.”

    They disagree it’s satanic?

    Are you insane?

    Fact is they are an exception which doesn’t fit your black and white worldview.

    Of course the million dollar question that you’re so upset about is, which toilet can a CAIS person use?

  • Indeed. It means I approach mental health issues with a particular perspective, and attempt to resolve them in a manner which reduces dysfunctionality, distress, and danger to the patient and others. I’ve seen what happens when professionals try to dispel gender dysphoria by convincing the patient that they really are their assigned sex — in most cases, it has the opposite desired outcome. It makes things worse.

  • Sims Simon

    The NC legislature to pass the HB2 bill is a specific act to justify the physical harm unto the LGBT community in whatever form.

    http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/north-carolina-cracks-down-local-anti-discrimination-policies

    The legislature got together to prevent an anti discrimination ordinance that the city of Charlotte had passed earlier in the year.

    Your ranting of hate is just another of your deceptive act to justify your wickedness to support discrimination laws of hate.

    And have a look at what that law is now making people do to each other for women to be lashing out against other women in the bathroom!
    https://www.facebook.com/never.shout.aimee/videos/vb.1473214698/10206543775341127/?type=3&theater

  • Bones

    What is it with you and forcing your penis on women?

  • Isa Almisry

    I didn’t miss the point.

    I just find no point in listening to the “expertise” of an anonymous poster with the leitmotif of appeal to authority, who can’t hear the tonic-not to mention toxic-note of projection in his composition.

    Thanks for playing.

  • Bones

    “”Not everyone who says ‘Lord, I love you!’ ‘Lord, I love you!’ will enter the Kingdom,””

    That applies just as much to you who believes the same as the Pharisees.

    It’s quite obvious that people like you have disgarded God’s kingdom for your own.

  • Bones

    Speaking of ‘expertise’ that’s you jack.

    A clown who is threatened by intersex people.

  • David Reimer wasn’t intersex; he suffered damage from a botched circumcision. Unfortunately, his life was complicated by a futile effort at gender reassignment forced upon him by a therapist with pedophilia tendencies and it remains unclear whether his psychological distress was caused by unconscious knowledge that he wasn’t actually female, or by the abuse he suffered at his therapist’s hands.

    Not many people know that his brother also may have committed suicide, having been found dead of an overdose of medication he’d been taking for an extended period of time.

  • Isa Almisry

    And oh, btw, Altemeyer’s refusal to take ownership of Lenin and Stalin, and Rob Altermeyer Jr.’s political career, should tell one all they need to know about those who appeal to his authority.

  • Bones

    Most do have a vagina. Now which toilet can they use? That’s the important question that Jesus is worried about.

    “Individuals with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (grades 6 and 7 on the Quigley scale) are born phenotypically female, without any signs of genital masculinization, despite having a 46,XY karyotype.[17] Symptoms of CAIS do not appear until puberty,[2] which may be slightly delayed,[18] but is otherwise normal except for absent menses and diminished or absent secondary terminal hair.[1] Axillary hair (i.e. armpit hair) fails to develop in one third of all cases.[19] External genitalia is normal, although the labia and clitoris are sometimes underdeveloped.[20][21] The vaginal depth is widely variable, but is typically shorter than unaffected women;[1] one study of eight women with CAIS measured the average vaginal depth to be 5.9 cm [22] (vs. 11.1 ± 1.0 cm for unaffected women [23]). In some extreme cases, the vagina has been reported to be aplastic (resembling a “dimple”), though the exact incidence of this is unknown.[24]”

  • Isa Almisry

    Projecting again, I see.

  • Isa Almisry

    TLDR

  • Bones

    Nah that’s you dude.

    Watch out for those CAIS people in women’s toilets forcing their non-existent penises on women.

    Moron.

  • *Shrugs* If we can’t assume that a large body of disparate individuals with no formal ties or unifying motivation who draw a nearly unanimous conclusion can be trusted to know their business, then we largely cannot trust any conclusion drawn throughout much of history. It seems to me that you have a not particularly recondite reason to disregard conclusions you don’t like. You’re welcome to your reasons and reasoning, but don’t be surprised when others fail to find “because I don’t want it!” to be no more persuasive than when you were in diapers and a highchair.

  • “Ownership of Lenin and Stalin”

    Wow.

  • Isa Almisry

    “Unfortunately, his life was complicated by a futile effort at gender reassignment forced upon him by a therapist with pedophilia tendencies”

    “Money devoted much of his research to sexual preferences, sexual orientation, and gender and sex differences. He was the recipient of many awards throughout his career, including the American Psychological Association Distinguished Scientific Award for the applications of psychology in 1985; the Masters and Johnson Fourth Annual Award, Society for Sex Therapy in 1988; and an award for his contributions to sexology research from the International Academy of Sex Research in 1991. The Kinsey Institute offers an annual John Money Fellowship for research in sexology.”
    http://www.goodtherapy.org/famous-psychologists/john-money.html

    One of your “experts” not only in good standing, but applauded by the rest of your “experts.”

  • Isa Almisry

    LOL
    Footnotes but no citation.

    Well, just this side of plagerism I guess…

    And I’m supposed to believe you know what Jesus is worried about, and what we should be worried about…

  • Sims Simon

    Go and repent or perish in eternal hell.

    Good luck.

  • Bones

    You’re not normal.

    You’re an arsehole who’s worried about people who are different to you.

    Thankfully there are people who don’t look at others as freaks.

    It gets better – “Heart of a champion” AIS

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwM5rfSnmuo

  • Bones

    These people can’t even see that they believe the same as the Pharisees……

    A religion which excludes and divides…..

  • Bones

    Lol……I’m surprised he didn’t squeeze in some Hitler….

  • Bones

    Lol.

    Sue me. As if I give a rats.

    You’ve got nothing.

    The one who isn’t normal is you.

    All you clowns who are scared of intersex people just show how completely stupid you are and how pathetic your version of whatever religion you follow is.

    But Jesus is worried about which toilet a person who doesn’t have a penis uses…..

    Idiot.

  • Bones

    Yes we the see the Orthodox Church in action in Russia with it’s influence on Putin by stripping away the rights of homosexuals so they can be beaten without recourse and blaming homosexuals for the rise of ISIS.

    You are the masters of hate and division, who have become the Pharisee..

  • Ruben Ponce

    I need that scripture quote please

  • Ruben Ponce

    I don’t know how it was done, but I just answered how the incarnation happened, here it goes again.
    Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
    Now my simple question to you is, Who is JESUS father ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    I’ve been quoting scripture after scripture on both on the OT and NT on acts that are an abomination (makes GOD sick to HIS stomach) to GOD. And one of those acts are men having sex with men, and women with women. The words homosexuality is not there because it was not invented then neither was gay, lesbian ect. ect… But the act itself tells you what is it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Have you ever expressed (tell) your father, brother, cousin how much you love and care for them ? And that love is much different than that of a woman’s.

  • Sims Simon

    If you were a Follower of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm, you would have learned otherwise of what act is considered acceptable for one to have eternal life as given in the LAW in both the OT and the NT. Thus any acts against the LAW is what constitute a mortal sin for one to not have eternal life.

    For you to accuse gays of an abomination is simply a lie and deception of you to justify your mortal sin of hate to support man-made laws of discrimination to hate gays.

    Only a fool like you don’t know what are pearls and don’t know what is sacred to be trampling all over the LAW, and calling what Christ called good as evil, and what Christ called evil as good.

    When you have a reprobate mind to hate Christ, you hate all of His commandments.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Ruben Ponce

    The main issue is marraige, and SCOTUS has no power to define marraige, that is left to the states.
    On the scriptures you quoted, I agree 100%.

  • Isa Almisry

    Small town hospital?
    My sons were born at a large hospital practically in the center of Chicago (2.7 million), whose maternity ward has about 1,500 births a year. Comparing those figures, your small town would be the size of Dallas.

  • Isa Almisry

    ^and the projection continues..

  • Sims Simon

    When I tell other people how I love them, I don’t openly compared the love I have for them to that of the opposite sex!!

    Anyway, does it really matter to you to debate whether David and Jonathan were gays for you to not believe in Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm, such that you hate all of His teachings and the LAW for you to then commit the mortal sin of hate to vote, legislate and support man-made laws of discrimination to physically harm others that you don’t agree with ?

    Good luck again with your anti-Christ lifestyle to give excuses and excuses to justify your mortal sin that is against the LAW, and your prayers of abomination.

    Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the LAW, even his prayer is an abomination.

  • Isa Almisry

    “You’re an arsehole who’s worried about people who are different to you.”

    Being different is what male and female is all about.

    “Thankfully there are people who don’t look at others as freaks.”

    Depending on that, aren’t you.

  • Sims Simon

    If you are an American, you would have learned that there are 3 branches of the Government to provide check and balance. The job of SCOTUS is to dismantle any law that violates the US constitution. No State has the power to violate the US Constitution as they wish even if it allows the people to vote for it, just as no Christian has the power to violate the LAW, the Great Commandment as he/she wishes by giving excuses, even from other biblical passages in defense of his/her act of wickedness unto others.

    Any violation of the LAW, the Great Commandment is what constitute a mortal sin for one to not have eternal life.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

    The 14th amendment of equal rights to all is a law in line with the LAW, the Great Commandment of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm.

    Marriage is a Federal issue as it is part of the criteria used for many Government laws of taxes, eligibility of immigration, legal stay and citizenship of spouse marrying a US Citizen, etc…

  • Ruben Ponce

    Loving they neighbor does not mean accepting their sin. On your comment you wrote, Homophobes who profess to be religious, and use words not from Christ but from Moses and Paul:
    Know this, CHRIST was there when GOD spoke to Moses, and when the HOLY SPIRIT spoke to the apostles.

  • Sims Simon

    There is a huge difference between loving thy neighbor and loving thy neighbor AS THYSELF.

    See, when you hate Christ to not know nor understand the LAW, His Great Commandment properly, you completely failed to understand what act is considered acceptable for one to have eternal life. When one lives by the Golden Rule, one fulfills the LAW, and one lives to have eternal life. Any acts against the Golden lead to death, and that’s how the LAW condemns homophobia, pedophilia, hacking, terrorism, murder, theft, adultery, rape, etc… A Christian as a Follower of Christ does NOT do wicked things unto others as what he/she would NOT want others to do unto him/her.

    Judging others WRONGLY is not loving your neighbor AS YOURSELF.

    Putting discrimination laws to physically ill treat and harm gays is not loving your neighbor AS YOURSELF.

    Lying and deceiving are not acts of loving your neighbor AS YOURSELF.

    Yes Christ spoke to Moses such that Moses gave the LAW as in Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

    So for you to not abide by the LAW which Moses gave, you are showing how you are a hypocrite and a hater of Christ to uses Moses’s words not about the LAW, but other non-essential stuffs to justify your stance to defy the LAW.

    Putting words like Christ, God, Holy Spirit in capital letter, doesn’t make your words bigger nor greater than the Great Commandment !!

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments

    Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I don’t think they were ignorant, they managed to survive without all the high tech of today.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I hope you don’t think this verse mean intersex ? HE created them different for the purpose of multiplying. And there is only one way to multiply. Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If that person is born XX that person will never develope male sperms.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You are short of saying there is no GOD.

  • Ruben Ponce

    This is rape, notice the word “force”. Deu 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
    Notice that it is not ok to rape, people of today better be glad they don’t live in those times.
    Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found:
    Notice there is no force here, so we can assume sexual consent which is more prevalent now then it was back then.

  • Ruben Ponce

    We don’t know what they were, there is a dark period between Genesis ch.1 vs1 and 2.

  • Sometimes good things can come from deeply problematic places, and John Money was quite a problematic person. While he contributed significantly to our understanding of sex and gender, he is far from applauded and his legacy is not without heavy criticism.

  • Being different is what male and female is all about.

    Actually, there are more differences within sexes than across them. Two individual women might differ in many ways, but either one of them might share much in common with a man.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You still haven’t answered how Mary got pregnant and who is JESUS father ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    In the OT GOD did kill thousands of homosexuals when HE destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. You do know the story don’t you ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    CHRIST was there when the Ten Commandments were written, CHRIST was there when the laws were given to Moses.CHRIST was there when GOD parted the Red Sea when Israel left Egypt, CHRIST was there when GOD gave all the laws to Moses saying ” thou shalt not “.

  • Sims Simon

    You talk so much about CHRIST, but when He preached with His own mouth when He walked as man in flesh, you simply not only ignore Him, but go against all the commandments He said !!!

    As demonstrated again and again, YOU SIMPLY HATE CHRIST as you only want to choose words NOT from Him, but other apostles so as to justify your mortal sin of hate to go against the LAW for you to judge other WRONGLY, to then vote, legislate and support man-made laws of discrimination to hate people who follow the LAW.

    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

  • Lenin and Stalin tend to get lumped in with atheism, because of course sharing atheism with militant totalitarian governments is completely different from sharing religion with the many, many Christian slavers, mass murderers, and human rights violators throughout history.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Then of the scriptures I quoted you on acts of homosexualism, what do you think it means ? On both the OT and NT.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the LAW, even his prayer is an abomination.
    This is whats in the law you just quoted, Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. This is homosexualism and CHRIST was there when these laws were given.

  • Ruben Ponce

    No laws were ever violated because homosexualism is not a race, its a form of lifestyle.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Yes, all atheists = Stalin and Lenin, while somehow a mention of Westboro Baptist gets met with a chorus of “they’re not true Christians.”

    Atheists bear the responsibility for every awful thing done in the name of atheism (also see: homosexuals), yet some Christians refuse to acknowledge the horrible things done in Christianity’s name as being all that bad or even being part of their tribe.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You can love your neighbor but you don’t have to accept their sinful lifestyle. Just like you love your children but you have to discipline them because of whatever they may like but you disapprove of.

  • Sims Simon

    If you love Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm, you would be more eager to demonstrate how you love Him. You should spend your energy to learn what are pearls and what is sacred.

    I don’t need to waste time to understand why eating shellfish or wearing clothing of mix material are important, but I just need to know what Christ said on what act is acceptable for one to have eternal life.

    Good luck again demonstrating how YOU HATE CHRIST, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. When you have a reprobate mind to hate, you will give all sort of excuses, lie and deception to do evil.

  • Sims Simon

    So basically, you deny Christ and what He preached in the LAW, His Great Commandment!!!

    Again, you demonstrated how you hate Christ to blaspheme against the LAW.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Sims Simon

    When you do wicked things unto others as what you would not want others to do unto you, you commit the mortal sin to violate the LAW, the Great Commandment of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm.

    And when you violated and didn’t obey His commands of the LAW, you hate Him and you will not have eternal life.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

    There can never be any excuse for one to defy the LAW.

    Good luck

  • Sims Simon

    Indeed, when you are not a Follower of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm, you can choose whatever lifestyle you want, but you can’t impose nor force other of your anti-Christ doctrine of lip service of love, and actions of hatred.

    When the children didn’t commit any wrongdoing, a Christian will not lie and deceive that they had done so and punish them with man-made laws to discriminate them!!

    Again, you keep demonstrating how you are not a Christian, but a wolf in sheep’s clothing as an anti-Christ who hate Christ rather.

  • Ruben Ponce

    In the OT a prostitude wound have been stoned to death, but because CHRIST came and we now live in time of Grace, HE forgave the prostitude and also told her “go and sin no more “. The same we do now, to tell the Good News to the homosexuals and to tell them to take a 180 turn on their lives and start living how GOD intended them to live. And we do that through scriptures.

  • Ruben Ponce

    No I don’t deny CHRIST and HIS teachings, hence I say love the sinner, hate the sin. We are now living in the dispensation of Grace. That is why CHRIST told the prostitude, Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

  • Sims Simon

    When Christ met with the crowd wanting to stone the adulterer, He used the same rule of the LAW, the Great Commandment to rebuke both the crowd and the adulterer. You homophobe commit the same sin as the adulterer such that you do wicked things unto other as what you would not want others to do unto you. The adulterer women, just like Kim Davis, had an affair behind her legally wedded husband of sexual act, to be doing things that she would NOT want her legally wedded husband to do unto her.
    As for the crowd, they were about to do something wicked of physical harm unto her as what they would not want others to do unto them if they were caught in doing wrong. That’s why Christ challenged them if they think they have not sinned, then they should not do such things unto others.

    You completely failed to understand how the LAW, the Great Commandment is everything!!! It condemns any act of non-consensual nature that leads to harm on one party like rape, adultery, homophobia, pedophilia, hacking, murder, theft, terrorism, etc…

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Sims Simon

    There is no such commandment from Christ as what you quote and do in reality. Action speaks louder than words, you do not obey any teachings of Christ that He spoke with his own mouth when He walked as a man in flesh.

  • Ruben Ponce

    CHRIST did condemned homosexualism, both in the OT and NT. As the HOLY SPIRIT spoke Paul wrote. The same with all tha prophets and apostles, they wrote as the HOLY SPIRIT spoke.

  • Ruben Ponce

    By your comments are you saying CHRIST hate prostitudes, because HE told her not to do the act no more, of what she was accused of doing.

  • Heck, Westboro is just loud. You know what popped up recently? Christians planning to engage in child trafficking at a Salvation Army center.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Wait…WHAT?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Are you saying live freely anyway you want, any lifestyle you want with any consequences with CHRIST ?

  • Ayup. Specifically, it’s a conference for Christian home schoolers, already under fire for numerous recent incidents in which it was found their children weren’t receiving an adequate education (in some cases, to the point that they weren’t even being taught how to read), to marry their children off. A great deal of the conference letter is spent determining the appropriate age for a child to be married — about two paragraphs are dedicated to the discussion of breasts. Ultimately, the conclusion is that the Bible says 12 is good enough, but it would probably be better to wait until 13.

    What gave law enforcement a huge red flag was that there’s also discussion of bride prices — which turns this from something that could be dismissed as adults chatting about who would make a cute couple, into literally selling their children to be married to strangers.

  • Stats from OII, with justification, at https://oii.org.au/16601/intersex-numbers/

    “We have seen estimates range from 1 in 1,500 or 2,000 births to 4%, and
    we recommend a figure of 1.7%, despite its flaws. This was published by
    Blackless and others in the American Journal of Human Biology, a peer
    reviewed scientific journal, and also by Anne Fausto-Sterling, Professor
    of Biology and Gender Studies at Brown University in the US. No more
    accurate sources of data yet exist.”

  • dcpdx

    thank you.

  • Jeff Preuss

    Oh, yeah, I’d read about that retreat/auction, but hadn’t heard any SA connection before, and hadn’t read there was discussion of prices.

    Ick.

  • That has a rather good discussion on the subject, and I’d reccomend reading it, not just a source for a figure.

    The more people know about this subject, the better. Unfortunately, there are strong religious objections to even admitting it exists, let alone teaching about it.

    The Pacific Justice Institute in particular has waged a well-funded and successful campaign to prevent such dangerous knowledge from being disseminated, on the grounds that it “goes against family values” and even “fosters a climate hostile to faith”, thereby restricting religious liberty.

  • Sims Simon

    Your words will not change any single thing of what Christ spoke Himself when He walked as a man in flesh to condemn your act that is against the LAW, and to bless any marriage of any person wanting to live by the LAW.

    Good luck hating Christ, to exchange the truth of His teachings for other prophets and false teachers.

    Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

  • Sims Simon

    Live by the Golden Rule as what Christ preached !!!

    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Sims Simon

    If she changes to not sin, then he loves them.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    Go and sin no more or perish in hell.

    Good luck.!

  • The problem is that the issue has become politicised. It is RNC policy since February that Intersex people do not and cannot exist.

    “WHEREAS, A person’s sex is defined as the physical condition of being male or female, which is determined at conception, identified at birth by a person’s anatomy, recorded on their official birth certificate, and can be confirmed by DNA testing;”

    RNC RESOLUTION CONDEMNING GOVERNMENTAL OVERREACH REGARDING TITLE IX POLICIES IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS

    Compared to the DOJ submission:

    [30. Individuals are typically assigned a sex on their birth certificate solely on the basis of the appearance of the external genitalia at birth. Additional aspects of sex (for example, chromosomal makeup) typically are not assessed and considered at the time of birth, except in cases of infants born with ambiguous genitalia.]

    [31. An individual’s “sex” consists of multiple factors, which may not always be in alignment. Among those factors are hormones, external genitalia, internal reproductive organs, chromosomes, and gender identity, which is an individual’s internal sense of being male or female.]

  • There’s no such thing as “female sperm”. Please read any basic biology text!

    There are records of several cases of auto-fertilisation, perhaps the most famous being that of Petra Henderson, late of the Royal Corps of Signals.

    A botched Hernia operation to remove extraneous organs left her pregnant. Before then, she had fathered several children.

    Eppur si muove.

  • Kara Connor

    Lmao! Presented with evidence showing you are wrong, you stick your fingers in your ears and shout “la la la”. You are the poster child for cognitive dissonance.

  • Ruben Ponce

    At the start of your comment you said something we both agree, to rebuke both the crowd and the adulterer, meaning a wrong has been commited, first to the stoners CHRIST asked ” those among you who are without sin”, meaning they were all sinners, as we all are. Then to the adulterer, who was caught in the act, to her HE said,”go and sin no more”, meaning do a 180 turn and live that same lifestyle no more. This is to you, me, and all.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Those same laws in Deuteronomy and Leviticus, CHRIST was there when they were given to the Israelites.

  • Ruben Ponce

    CHRIST didn’t have to come and say again “thou shalt not”. It was already the laws and they were already written. HE came to shed HIS blood for the remission of sins(yours and mine) for the whole world. And now all (to those who want to be saved) must now do a 180 turn and live the way GOD intended us to live (OT and NT).

  • Ruben Ponce

    My question was can we live any lifestyle we want as long as we live by the golden rule ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    And if she chooses to keep on sinning ? (living the same old lfestyle).

  • Ruben Ponce

    Hahaha. Really ? Got pregnant without male sperms ? Kind of like the virgin Mary ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Ms. Connor I’ve been presenting evidence after evidence from the GOD who made the sexes(you and me) but your people refuse to accept them.

  • Kara Connor

    So how do you explain these?

    Ovaries and Female Phenotype in a Girl with 46,XY Karyotype and Mutations in the CBX2 Gene
    Anna Biason-Lauber, Daniel Konrad, Monika Meyer, Carine deBeaufort, and Eugen J. Schoenle, Am J Hum Genet. 2009 May 15; 84(5): 658–663.
    “A girl with a prenatal 46,XY karyotype was born with a completely normal female phenotype, including uterus and histologically normal ovaries”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2680992/
    Successful pregnancy in a patient with a 46,XY karyotype
    Selvaraj K, Ganesh V, Selvaraj P. Fertil. Steril., Aug.; 78(2):419-420.
    “A hypoplastic uterus of patients with the 46,XY karyotype can be stimulated by the use of cyclical steroid therapy to accommodate pregnancy and facilitate tubal procedures in patients with normal fallopian tubes.
    ..
    Her hormonal profile revealed normal E2 and P levels but elevated FSH and LH levels, which suggests a poor ovarian response. Growth and secondary sexual characteristics were found to be normal on physical examination. Chromosomal analysis revealed a 46,XY karyotype.”
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12137885

    Successful pregnancy in a pure gonadal dysgenesis with karyotype 46, XY patient (Swyer’s syndrome)
    Haroon Siddique, Srinivasan Rangan, Saleh Hussein & Peter Daggett. Endocrine Abstracts (2007) 13 P253
    “Nineteen years after her original presentation, she desired a child and had a successful pregnancy through in vitro fertilization with oocyte donation program. At 41 weeks of gestation; she delivered a healthy female child by assisted vaginal delivery.”
    http://www.endocrine-abstracts.org/ea/0013/ea0013p253.htm

    Two successful pregnancies in a 46,XY patient
    A.K.S.Kan, H.I.Abdalla and T.Oskarsson. Human Reproduction vol.12 no.7 pp.1434–1435, 1997
    “Two successful pregnancies (singleton followed by twins) following ovum donation/in-vitro fertilization in a 46,XY woman have been studied. Although similar cases have previously been presented: in a pure XY patient and in 45,X/46,XY patient, this case is one in which a subsequent successful pregnancy has resulted”
    https://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/12/7/1434.full.pdf

    Unassisted Pregnancy
    Yu, Q et al. Chinese Medical Journal 2001;114(2):128-131
    ” If the Y chromosome is present and SRY is positive, gonads might be ovaries. Case 8 (Table 1) was a XY female with SRY positive, but her gonads were normal ovaries and she g ave birth to a normal baby. Ye et al[11]reported a case of 45,X/46,XY go nadal dysgenesis with ovaries and primordial follicle on one side. This case in dicates that gonads can be ovaries and should be preserved in patients with an Y chromosome and a positive SRY.”
    http://124.205.33.103:81/ch/reader/view_abstract.aspx?file_no=20012128&flag=1

  • Ruben Ponce

    Its called an appandage. Its not uncommon especially in third world countries. But that extra member be it a penis looking or vagina or any other member of the body. It is a useless and servws no purpose member that can be surgically removed at infancy.

  • Bones

    He does not condemn. …..

    John 8:11

  • Bones

    Facts scare you because they show you to be a bigot.

  • Bones

    You have presented nothing……

  • Bones

    Except they were rapists…..

    Another mythological story.

    Now maybe it’s different in the US but homosexuals don’t come over to my house demanding to rape my guests.

    You are a hideous human being to wish death on gay people.

  • Bones

    I did….

    God spoke….that’s how God creates.

    The term father is a metaphor as God is also my mother, my brother, my sister, my friend.

    Read your Bible and stop being a complete idiot.

  • Bones

    They were human beings…..

    To suggest they were anything else is racist…..

  • Ruben Ponce

    So you’re saying we can live wayward with no fear of condemnation

  • Ruben Ponce

    It they were facts I wouldn’t be scared, shocked maybe.

  • Bones

    From Jesus no.

    Or do you not understand the verse.

  • Ruben Ponce

    But they’re raping the Constitution by pushing their agenda on the rest of us. I didn’t meant to say that cause Im rearing of tract, but Sodom and Gomorrah were filled homosexuals, that why GOD rained down fire and brimestones.

  • Bones

    The Hebrew ū·ṯə·p̄ā·śāh in Deueronomy 22:28 means to seize.

    It was rape.

    Men could not rape another man’s wife ie damage his property.

    But they could rape a single woman and marry her, raping her to the rapists’s content.

    Thankfully we don’t live under such vile laws – except for those under ISIS.

    That people still are using them to justify their hatred of others eg women wearing jeans is disgraceful.

  • Ruben Ponce

    So what do you explain Luke 1:34 and 35. What’s your version of tbose two verses.

  • Bones

    There is no god like yours. It does not exist but is an idol created through your warped misunderstanding of Scripture.

    Jesus himself condemns you.

  • Bones

    Yeah we’r really under threat from dying out through lack of creation.

  • Bones

    It’s not what you’ve made up either.

  • Bones

    They are XY, have a vagina and don’t have a penis for the umpteenth time.

    Simple question for this is the real issue……

    Which toilet can they use?

  • Bones

    God spoke and creates through the Holy Spirit….

    Any Christian can tell you that God merely has to speak and it happens eg creation, the incarnation ie the conception of Jesus…

    Do you not read the Bible?

    God doesn’t go around rooting young girls.

    God doesn’t have a penis nor a vagina because God doesn’t need one.

    Because God is spirit.

  • Bones

    This wasn’t an issue until some conservative states decided to make it one. As intersex people were free to use the toilets of their choosing.

    It’s not an issue in my country where we don’t judge intersex people.

    It is in no way ‘raping the constitution’ neither does it have the slightest to do with Sodom and Gomorrah. They aren’t going to the toilet to rape your guests.

    You’re more likely to be raped by a priest at church.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I not saying they weren’t humans, we don’t have any DNA, but if they were then they had to be XX and XY.

  • Bones

    Like the way you run away from CAIS people born with XY chromosomes a vagina and no penis.

    I bet God did that just to annoy people like you.

  • Bones

    The Bible just refuted your own stupidity that women weren’t created in the image of God.

    Genesis 5:1 explicitly shows that God created men and women in the image of God.

    God is therefore intersex.

  • Bones

    With some hermaphrodites and intersex individuals as well…..like normal human beings

  • Ruben Ponce

    I understand now. What you and some people want is a god with no morals and decency. Well then we were talking about different gods then. My GOD is the CREATOR of heaven and earth. I hate to say it but yours is not.

  • Kara Connor

    So you didn’t read the papers. Got it.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense, its hard to believe you now since you want a god with no moral decency.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Your are asking a question on something that doesn’t exist, therefore , there can’t be an answer.

  • Daulphin

    There is no evidence that god even exists, so you have hardly produced “evidence after evidence” for it. Religions who claim to worship the same god disagree about what that god says.

    You want us to believe you, yet you won’t even read the evidence that shows you are wrong and that gender and sexuality are far more complex than male and female.

  • Ruben Ponce

    So did GOD spoke and your mom concieve you ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Correction, it wasn’t an issue till the lgbt made it an issue. But we will keep fight till JESUS comes (the first time is going to be called the rapture). This has nothing to do with conservatives. Its called moral decency, something you said your god rather not have.

  • Ruben Ponce

    This is your stupid rationale, if a person is intersex then he can impregnate himself. Because before GOD made Adam HE said “Let us ” make man. HE had to be talking to somebody.

  • Ruben Ponce

    How can I be scared or shocked of something that don’t exist.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Normal human beings are XX or XY

  • Ruben Ponce

    Read more than what needs to be read, tons of papers same conclucion, appandages that serve no purpose or are useless and should be removed during infancy.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Here is a small evidence of the GOD I serve and exist.
    Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

  • Bones

    CAIS people exist…….

    You can’take handle that.

  • Bones

    Why would god impregnate himself?

    God is a spirit.

    God doesn’t create through sex!!!!!!!

    Are you saying that there are other gods and spirits for god to f#ck?

    God has no need of sex organs or the ability to f#ck.

    Genesis 5 refutes your insanity and states that male and female are created in god’s image.

    One can only assume you are a child such is the level of your stupidity.

  • Kenneth James Abbott

    If God made us with two legs, then why are some people only born with one?

    Obviously, saying that “humans have two legs” or “people are supposed to have two legs” is absolute bigotry and you’re a racist (somehow) for saying it.

  • Bones

    No. Wrong as usual.

    Christians like yourself have found the latest scapegoat to get all offended about which in most countries is a non- issue.

    It has nothing to do with moral decency as you would like to inspect people before they go to the toilet.

    You sound pretty disgusting.

    And no, there will be no rapture.

    That’s more insanity which you’ve bought into.

    Like that’s a surprise.

  • Bones

    Are you retarded?

  • Bones

    Nope.

    Stating facts.

    Go join your Orthodox mates in beating up gay people.

  • Bones

    The freaks are people like you…..

    Unfortunately there is no genetic cause for being an arsehole. …

    In your case it’s religion….

  • Bones

    He also said “neither do I condemn you” BEFORE “go and sin no more”.

    Jesus’s non-condemnation was not based on the requirement of the woman to stop sinning.

    We don’t know if she did or didn’t.

    Sin then affects us, like a disease.

    It has nothing to do with God. He is no more offended by our sins than he is offended by cancer.

  • Bones

    Yet according to you God needs a dick to go around rooting young girls……

  • Bones

    Your god has no moral decency hence why your idol gives laws for rapists to marry their victims…

    You god is the exact same as ISIS.

  • Bones

    You must really hate Jesus.

    I mean you are very similar to the pharisees. You both worship the same idol.

    Jesus made it clear that he didn’t condemn the woman BEFORE saying go and sin no more. His refusal to condemn was not conditional on the woman sinning.

    If she went out screwing again and they brought her back, he would say the same thing.

    Jesus is actually taking aim at people like you who would love to cast the first stone and even invent sins that don’t exist like with intersex people.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If they exist dhats because they didn’t get rheir appandage removed during infancy. As of right now its a useless and serves no purpose.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I didn’t say that but that seems to be your rationale,I keep saying one of those appandages serve no purpose, you say it does, so my question is, if they both work, can they impregnate themselves.

  • Ruben Ponce

    In the end we ‘ll see who’s right. So fair warning, HE is coming.

  • Ruben Ponce

    GOD spoke and created non human creation i.e. trees, grass, stars, sun, ect. ect.., but JESUS was human. So my question again, how did HE made JESUS.

  • Bones

    The traditional theological response is that God spoke and Mary conceived.

    In the same way that God spoke…..and it was made.

    I am yet to hear any Christian say that God f#cked Mary……..until now.

  • Bones

    No he isn’t.

    Your scare tactics are pathetic.

    You will share the same treatment as the Pharisees whatever that will be.

  • Ruben Ponce

    This is what you say the scripture says:
    Bones Ruben Ponce
    38 minutes ago
    He also said “neither do I condemn you” BEFORE “go and sin no more”. The word ” before” is not in the scripture, but I’ll cut you a break, instead of “before” how about using” therefore”. However you want to word it, the last words that HE said to her were ” go, and sin no more.”

  • Bones

    It’s called a commentary dope.

    He says “neither do I condemn you”…….BEFORE he says “go and sin no more”.

    According to you, Jesus should have condemned the woman. In fact you’d be first to pick up stones against anyone you don’t like

  • Bones

    If they both work, then why not?

    Maybe ask a doctor….

  • Bones

    They don’t have an appendage you idiot.

    They have a vagina and no penis and XY chromosomes.

    Would you like to transplant a penis on them to make you feel better. You could start with the dick on your head.

  • Bones

    So did our aborigines….

    Other cultures were far more enlightened and moral than the Ancient Israelites.

  • Ruben Ponce

    But were there such thing as aborigines, the Bible has no reference on them.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I’ve been trying to tell you XX is (female) and XY is (male ).

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thats never going to happen, its a useless appandage rhat should’ve been surgically removed since infancy.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I’ve been trying to tell you that. Now HE is telling all of us, “go and sin no more “. Will you disobey HIM and continue living your sinful lifestyle ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    Read it its in your Bible, I would send you some scriptures but there are too many. Remember these words “in the twinkling of an eye “. Im telling you, its gonna happened.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I didn’t say that Mr. Bones. You are putting words in my mouth much like you are putting words in the Bible. This is what I said:
    Ruben Ponce Bones
    2 days ago
    Im not going to question GOD how HE did this miracle but I read it and I believe it.
    Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

  • Ruben Ponce

    This is what I said Mr. Bones.
    Ruben Ponce Bones
    2 days ago
    Im not going to question GOD how HE did this miracle but I read it and I believe it.
    Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

  • Bones

    So nothing about God shagging Mary.

    Good grief….

  • Bones

    You’re the one who thinks God needs a dick. …

  • Bones

    Will you?

    The answer to that of course is yes.

    You can’t help playing the pharisee.

    You love it because it gives you supposed power over people.

    Will Jesus condemn you.

    No.

    Because your hatred is born out of fear of others and ignorance.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Mr. Bones here is the scripture in chronological order as it happen, then tell if HE said it before or after, HE told her to sin no more.
    Joh 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
    Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
    Don’t lie to yourself man, be honest.

  • Bones

    You asked about working sex organs.

    If they are working how are they an appendage derpaderp.

  • Ruben Ponce

    It is not true, here it is again.
    This is rape, notice the word “force”. Deu 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
    Notice that it is not ok to rape, people of today better be glad they don’t live in those times.
    Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found:
    Notice there is no force here, so we can assume sexual consent which is more prevalent now then it was back then.

  • Bones

    This person is xy without a penis and has a vagina and until her blood test in her teens was considered a girl.

    And she still is.

    https://youtu.be/nPN22WBwZQM

  • Bones

    The Hebrew word in Deut 22:28 means to seize.

    It is rape.

    It is disgusting.

    As are you.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If both are working sex organs on the same person he/she would have a possibility of impregnating himself/herself.

  • Bones

    Honestly you are a moron.

    That is exactly what I said.

    Jesus said “neither do I condemn you”. Notice Jesus doesn’t condemn the adulterer. She hasn’t repented and is still in her sinful lifestyle.

    THEN he says “go and sin no more”.

    Now tell me what happens if this woman continues her lifestyle and is brought before Jesus again…..

    Does Jesus say,”you’re gonna die for that bitch?”

  • Ruben Ponce

    Then the penis was an appandage serving no purpose, useless.

  • Bones

    Nope.

    It ain’t happening. And I’m not worried because I’m not an arsehole to other people.

    And it’s people like you who should be worried.

  • Ruben Ponce

    How do you know she didn’t repent when she got home ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    How can you say you believe in CHRIST yet don’t believe what he said. Do you or don’t you believe and if you do why don’t you believe HE is coming again?

  • Ruben Ponce

    So why is it on one passage and not on the other ?

  • Ruben Ponce

    No not me. I made a 180 turn in my life. Im not living the way I used to. My question is have you made that 180 turn, have you repented.

  • Ruben Ponce

    How ever thinks that is blissfully in error.

  • No, but saying that “people with one leg don’t exist, because humans have two legs” , or “things with only one leg are not human”, or “to only have one leg is sinful and they will all burn in Hell” is pretty much bogotry, yes.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Like I said, I don’t know how GOD performed this miracle, by I sent you the passages.

  • I won’t comment on the Virgin Mary.

    The pregnancy didn’t come to term – Petra didn’t have a complete female reproductive system.
    She had both working ovaries and internal working testes.

    That’s very, very rare. But happens. Usually both male and female reproductive tracts, when found together, are both disfunctional. When they’re not completely so, usually only the male one works adequately.

  • By that definition of “normal” – meaning “the majority”…

    normal people don’t speak english

    normal people don’t have white skin
    normal people are right handed.

    Most people are indeed 46,XX or 46,XY. Of course, some men are 46,XX, and some women 46,XY, but so what?

  • Bones

    So you’really talking about something you don’the know about.

    Move on…..

  • Bones

    As I’ve been telling you God doesn’t need a dick. ..

  • Bones

    You have not repented.

    You have become the pharisee.

    You have acknowledged that you believe the same as the pharisees whom Jesus admonished.

    Jesus calls to you to repent of your false religion which divides and keeps people out of the kingdom of God. Jesus calls to you to repent of ignorance and superstition whose goal is to cause destruction in your fellow humans. Jesus calls to you to repent over putting archaic codes over mercy and equality.

    You will not hear that call.

    Because you love doing what you’re doing. It makes you feel good to put others down and think that God is on your side.

    When he isn’t.

    In fact you are working against him.

  • Bones

    Why does one passage mention raping betrothed women while the other one refers to virgins who aren’t betrothed?

    They clearly go together.

    Most translations accurately translate Deur 22:28 as seize.

    BTW a married man doesn’t commit adultery when he screws a single woman……according to the Torah.

  • Bones

    It is you who doesn’t believe Christ. …you are content to be the Pharisee. You like that.

    I can see why someone like you will be worried about Jesus’s return.

  • Bones

    How do you know if she did.?????

    Simple question. if she didn’t repent and was dragged in front of Jesus a second time, what would he do?

    What about a tenth time or a twentieth?

    What was Jesus saying about how many times to forgive????

    We know what you would do pharisee.

  • Bones

    The person doesn’t have a penis. ..at all…. and has xy chromosomes and a vagina. …

    Can you not read….

  • Bones

    OK?????

    And….

  • Sims Simon

    hmm and your projection continues to demonstrate how you pervert all the words of Christ to live an anti-Christ lifestyle of transphobia and homophobia by embracing the Westboro doctrine.

    Action speaks louder than words such that you are the ones spewing lots of hate in addition to what you admitted that the States should hate people by putting discrimination laws unto those they disagree, thus a direct violation of the LAW, the Great Commandment of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. Indeed your projection once again tells about what you do to quote the scripture as Lucifer in flesh, but you can’t follow the commandment of the LAW, as it is against your agenda which is to hate.

    Many people put a photo or a name, just like you do again. And once again, your projection tells more about you rather to be just like what you religious homophobes do to hide behind the Christian label, only to be wolves in sheep’s clothing. What you seems to portray to the outside world with a nice name and a nice picture, is nothing but a deception for you to lie, deceive and demonstrate how you hate Christ by not obeying the LAW, His Great Commandment.

    Once again, you got absolutely nothing by ad hominem attacks against me, as you got nothing concrete nor factual as any quotes from Christ to justify your actions.

    I know you are very very angry to have been exposed continually and you are a sore loser to have been shown how you are an anti-Christ who hate Christ, to be a wolf in sheep’s clothing and spewing nothing but hate just as what you have been brainwashed from your Westboro community of homophobes and transphobes.

    You can continue to lie and deny of your anti-Christ lifestyle of homophobia and bigotry as much as you want to deceive yourself and some, but you can never deceive all nor Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. I’m only here to expose you of your wickedness.

    Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

  • Sims Simon

    Indeed, that why I advocate the LAW for gays to fulfill the Great Commandment of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm, to feel free to marry the person they choose to love and to live by the Golden Rule.

    While you continue to sin by lying and deceiving that defying the LAW is good, in addition of you to celebrate all the sins of sexual immoralities of divorce, adultery, rape, pedophile together with other sinners of murderers, homophobes, thieves, terrorists, etc.. so long as they come forth to get married as a man & a woman.

    So go and repent of your anti-Christ lifestyle that is against the LAW, just as that adulterer did, and just as the crowd had the intention of doing.

  • Sims Simon

    Your man-made laws are not those of Christ, you are just a liar and a deceiver.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

  • Sims Simon

    hmm basically you are denying everything that He said in the LAW, the Great Commandment. Indeed when you hate Christ, you continue to demonstrate how you hate all of His teachings that He spoke with His own mouth when He walked as man in flesh. You prefer all the non-essential laws to justify your mortal sin that is against the LAW, for you to be like the adulterer women and the crowd to stone others.

    If you want to have eternal life, you have to believe in Christ and all of His words of the LAW.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Sims Simon

    Yes, that’s what Christ said of what to do in everything in order to have eternal life.

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..

  • Sims Simon

    Then she will suffer the consequences of her choice of lifestyle to be punished according to her deeds. Defying the LAW, means no eternal life.

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..

    James 2:17-18 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

  • Sims Simon

    See, when you suffer from the irrationality of being homophobic and transphobic, in addition of you to hate all the teachings of Christ only to embrace the evil biblical teachings of your Westboro cult, you are just ranting nonsense lies and deceptions to justify your stance to hate and discriminate people you disagree with.

    When hate is your main agenda to defy all the teachings of Christ and the LAW, for you to do wicked things unto others as what you would not want others to do unto you.

    Your projection to bring alcoholism is indeed the same mental addiction that you have to be doing wicked things that harm you and others in the process of doing so. When you hate Christ and do not understand the LAW, His Great Commandment, you still have no idea on how alcoholism, homophobia, transphobia, murder, pedophilia etc… are all the same type of act that is against the LAW, as one would then be doing bad things towards others, just as what you keep demonstrating here, in addition of your admitting that the States should physically harm transgender and lie that it’s about bathroom safety.

    And furthermore of your lie of bathroom safety, this bill is causing more harm now for women to be lashing out against real women to accuse them as transgender!!!
    https://www.facebook.com/never.shout.aimee/videos/vb.1473214698/10206543775341127/?type=3&theater

    When you are utterly sick to the core, just like Ted Cruz who was called as Lucifer in flesh, you religious homophobes indeed will lie at all cost to demonstrate your hatred towards all the Biblical teachings of Christ. Only an anti-Christ like you will take teachings of false prophets to even openly say that the Great Commandment is not great enough to have grace overwriting it!!! Thanks indeed for showing to the world how people like you so hate Christ.

    The LAW will always be the LAW, the Great Commandment of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. You will continually fail and lose when you turn your ear away from the LAW, as your prayers will always be an abomination.

    And again, you had nothing but your continual ad hominem attacks against me, as you are desperately angry trying to lash out at me for you to be a sore loser. You have nothing Biblical to show, as you know you got nothing higher than the LAW that you can find in the Bible and have to only make up things to do so.

    Indeed, you religious homophobes and transphobes are the wolves in sheep’s clothing, disguised as Christian only to be putting lies and deceptions to demonstrate how you hate others and Christ to not obey His commandments.

    You can continue to lie and deny of your anti-Christ lifestyle of homophobia and bigotry as much as you want to deceive yourself and some, but you can never deceive all nor Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. I’m only here to expose you of your wickedness.

    Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

    Every reply from you with lies and hate, I will always reply back with the truth of what Christ preached.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

    Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the LAW, even his prayer is an abomination.

  • Isa Almisry

    No Orthodox interpretation of the text is going to redefine the image and likeness of God in humans to include blindness in the definition.

    There are blind humans, and they are made in the image and likeness of God, but their blindness is a defect in their embodiment of that image and likeness. The source/cause of that defect lay aside for the moment-it remains a defect in need of healing. If it were not, Christ would have left him blind, and would not have condemned the Pharisees for their vision, which He exposes as blindness of a different sort.

    The text speaks about both the man in particular and men/humans in general.

    When He created us male and female, He set up a complimentary distribution, not a spectrum of a sliding scale.

    God did not force Jacob’s sons to sell their brother Joseph into slavery, but He did allow them using their free will to do it, and used the crime to exalt Joseph and save them all. God did not force man to Fall, but He used the consequences of it to raise him back up (hence the Crucifixion)-again in each human in particular and in humans in general. God did not create man blind, but that he became blind God has used to enable him to see. Intersex falls into that category, not in the essence of man, the image and likeness of God.

  • Isa Almisry

    “Because otherwise if all food is clean, then we can say rats and mice are good for consumption.”
    As good as chickens-you see what they eat?

    Christ declared all foods clean. Argue with Him.

  • .
    The truism that “Google is your friend” really means “Google is your undoing” to those who aren’t really searching for answers, let alone questions — facts can be so daunting when people really, really, really, really want to hold on to their naive, prejudiced, self-limiting, worse, other-limiting opinions ( ‘opinion’ is defined as “a belief not based on fact” ).

    The beauty of your examples, @KaraConner:disqus, thank you, is their specificity with references; the sad thing is people who are overcome with bias may think “… what’s a handful of examples matter compared to billions of ‘normals’? …”.

    What they don’t understand it that references can only find the few who need diagnosis, and have diagnosis available, and probably have insurance coverage, but, no one does equivalent research on the ‘normal’ population to also see how ‘normal’ people are a really kaleidoscopic genetic mazes and mosaics, they are just not in need of diagnosis, or without insurance …

    … so, ‘normal’-claiming folks, explain these genetic gifts from your God:
    http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html
    Need more?
    http://www.indiana.edu/~p1013447/dictionary/sexchrom.htm
    http://www.kumc.edu/AMA-MSS/Study/table_of_genetic_disorders.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_disorders
    https://www.genome.gov/10001204/specific-genetic-disorders/
    … and so on …

    … some publications are myopic and outdated, beware, and modern authors are less socially judgemental via referring to ‘syndromes’ rather than ‘disorders’.

    I ask anyone who denies the possibility of genetic variance to present their own DNA to support their own ‘normal’, until then, there is no one building a universal study of, or support for, ‘normal’.
    .

  • Ruben Ponce

    You can’t equate normality and majority on speaking english or skin color if you are in another country. And both right handed or left means nothing on XX or XY. However I don’t believe a man can have XX or female XY.

  • Ruben Ponce

    CHRIST never declared what foods were clean in the NT also the apostle Paul was a little ify on when to eat foods served to idols.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Then she will suffer the consequences of her choice of lifestyle to be punished according to her deeds. And this mean and enternity in hell. CHRIST warned us about this throught the NT. We can’t accept CHRIST as our savior and keep living waywardly, for CHRIST’s shedding of blood is not a license to keep on sinning.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thats not true at all. If we can still live waywardly and inherit eternal salvation then there wouldn’t be a need for CHRIST to come and experienced a horrific death.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I’ve never said that and I don’t deny the Great commandment, but as Great as this commandment is, it will mean nothing is we keep on living waywardly. And Paul gave all the waywardly lifestyles in the NT.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Yes all these laws you posted are correct and true, but they will mean nothing if you are still living in the old self. We are to live a righteous way and in order for us to try and live a better life for CHRIST is to take a 180 turn from our old way of living. Its not really that hard.

  • Ruben Ponce

    In the book of Exodus ch. 20, GOD spoke the Ten Commendment to Moses, and verse 14 deals with sex. And in Leviticus and Deuteronomy He breaks them down as to what each commandment means. And yes CHRIST has always been there since Genisis and beyond.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Come on Mr. Bones, you know a person(s) will never be able to impregnate themselves.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Then that person has XX chromosomes.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Repentence doesn’t have to be in front of anybody, if can be done in the privacy of your home. And after repentence an individual makes a 180 turn on his life and leaves the old wayward living behind. CHRIST death and forgiveness is not a license to keep on sinning.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Ok Mr. Bones ,Im gonna take this as No you don’t believe CHRIST is coming again. And that soon.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Clearly the word “force” is where rape happens and you can see the end result for the man.
    Any kind of sex outside of marriage is adultery, and both aren’t married, its fornication.

  • Kenneth James Abbott

    Nobody has ever said that people with one leg don’t exist, or aren’t human, or sinful–so nice try on misrepresenting the argument.

  • Ruben Ponce

    All the scriptures I posted are word for word. I didn’t twist any or added any.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You are twisting words Mr. Bones. I didn’t even mention anything of a sort.

  • Ruben Ponce

    That is truely correct Mr. Bones. As I said in previous comments I don’t know how GOD created this miracle on Mary, but I do know that the HOLY SPIRIT came to her and the Power of the Highest over shadowed her.

  • Daulphin

    That is nothing but words in a book, it isn’t evidence for a god.

    I do understand people need to believe in a personal god who watches their every move. However, it make no rational sense. If you indeed look at the glory of the firmament in it’s awesomeness and incredible distances between objects, the complexity of everything that is, it is impossible to believe that anything that created this is is any way watching over and caring about the silly little lives we live. It there is a creative force in the universe assuming it is like human beings is the height of hubris.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I doubt that GOD looks at life as silly, in fact HE looks at it as so serious that HE sent HIS only son JESUS to die a horrific death so that we who never took life serious could now do so and inherit life in heaven, eternally. But don’t under estimate the Power and Awesomeness of GOD. Everything scientists and astronomers see and can’t see was created, therefore there is a CREATOR.

  • Daulphin

    See how silly that seems? God makes us to be how we are, then isn’t happy about it, calls for a human sacrifice to “save” us, so we can be happy in some never never land in the future, but never here. Believing that someone else was preemptively tortured to death to attone for your future wrongdoings is ridiculous on the face of it. And god kills millions by flooding the world, but somehow an ark was made to hold two of millions of species, so they survived. Oh, and the word was populated by two people, period. Lots of incest I guess. Then he also asked Abraham to kill his son to prove how much he loves god. Really? Even your Jesus said “the kingdom of god is among us” not that heaven was somewhere else that we arrive at at some later time.
    If there is a creative force in the universe, and I think there is, it could not be understood by us, we are far to limited to understand anything that could have put all this in motion. Thinking we do or can, is the height of hubris.
    I don’t pretend to know or understand god, any rational adult would skip that pretension as well. Whatever god is could not possibly be understood by us in our current form.
    The biggest difference between us, Ruben, is that I don’t want or need to get you to believe as I do, and I don’t use my beliefs as a way to judge, condemn or harm others. Intersex people were created by the same god as you were. As were all LGBT people. We aren’t here for you to judge. Think about it, your god may be looking at you to see if you treat us with the same loving kindness “his” “son” did when he healed the lover of the centurion.

  • Sims Simon

    Indeed, your projection tells again more about your tragic lifestyle to be such an anti-Christ ranting ad hominem and desperate lie to justify your hate towards Christ to not obey any of His teachings.

    And indeed your prayers are just an abomination when you choose to turn your ear away from the LAW.

    Thanks again for showing how people like you who embrace the Westboro doctrine are like swine who refuse to learn what are pearls, and dogs who refuse to learn what is sacred.

    Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the LAW, even his prayer is an abomination.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Sims Simon

    So sad your homophobic and transphobic God is not Jesus Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. Indeed your transphobic and homophobic God is nothing but of a love to hate people. I feel so sorry for your hatred towards Christ to reject all of His teachings.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Sims Simon

    Indeed, that adulterer, just like you homophobes and transphobes will not have eternal life for your choice of lifestyle to continue to do wicked things unto others as what you would not want others to do unto you.

    When you defy the LAW, you hate Christ and will not live.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Sims Simon

    Indeed, when you hate Christ, His teachings as what He preached with His own mouth when He walked as a man in flesh, are not true to your anti-Christ teachings.

    Christ came to re-emphasize about the LAW and to believe in Him in His words so as to have eternal life, but all homophobes and transphobes refuse to believe in Him, just like all sinners of murderers, rapists, pedophiles, hackers, terrorists, etc…

  • Sims Simon

    In your actions to be a homophobe and a transphobe, you deny the Great Commandment as you choose words of other prophets instead to justify your defiance to the LAW.

    Furthermore with those man-made laws of discrimination that is against the LAW, you have demonstrated how you celebrate all the sins of sexual immoralities of divorce, adultery, rape, pedophile together with other sinners of murderers, homophobes, thieves, terrorists, etc.. so long as they come forth to get married as a man & a woman.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    James 2:17-18 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.

  • Sims Simon

    Those laws are true provided one follow and DO THEM in actions, not just words. As Satan can also quote them, just like you do, but one thing that you and Satan can’t do is to follow the LAW in actions.

    You should worry more about the log in your own eyes than still trying so hard in telling others of the speck of dust that is not even there in gays who are following the LAW when they exchange marriage vows to live by the Golden Rule as in Matthew 7:12, to the same sex person they choose to love.

    Go and repent of your mortal sin of hate, or you will not have eternal life, for the wages of your mortal sin of hate is death.

  • Sims Simon

    Yet, when He spoke with His own mouth when He walked as a man in flesh, you give Him the middle finger to hate all of His teachings, including the MOST IMPORTANT LAW OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE : THE LAW, HIS GREAT COMMANDMENT that give life.

    You failed John 3:16 to not believe in Him, but you believe in other prophets and false teachers.

    When you hate Christ, you still try so hard to use words NOT from Him, but other apostles to justify your mortal sin and hatred to CHRIST.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Like I said earlier CHRIST was there when the Ten Commandments were given to Moses in Exodus and CHRIST was there when GOD broke them down in meanings in Deuteronomy and in Leviticus. And CHRIST was there when the HOLY SPIRIT spoke as Paul wrote all the waywardly lifestyles, that if a person chooses to keep on living as such will inherit eternal life in hell which there is no escape from.

  • Sims Simon

    You can claim whatever you want, but action speaks louder than words and that’s what Christ will reward each one accordingly to their deeds.

    When you choose a lifestyle of homophobia and transphobia, you choose not to believe in Christ to not believe in any of His teachings that He spoke with His own mouth when He walked as a man in flesh, as indeed you hate Christ.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”

  • Ruben Ponce

    What I am telling you every pastor will tell you the same, because its in the OT and NT, that homosexuals and transgender indeed the LGBT community will not inherit Heaven.

  • Ruben Ponce

    All those actions you just posted are bad, but you keep pointing to bad behaviors to justify other bad behaviors, can’t do that.

  • Sims Simon

    Indeed, every false teachers who embrace the Westboro doctrine will tell the same thing to not follow the LAW, but defy them. But the Bible says otherwise as what Christ preached in the LAW.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”

  • Sims Simon

    When hate has completely blinded you to still not understand the LAW, you failed to understand what act is considered bad. Your lifestyle of homophobia and transphobia is of the same act of murder, terrorist, pedophilia, theft, rape, etc… as when you vote, legislate and support discrimination laws to physically harm gays, you commit the mortal sin that is against the LAW.

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I gave a 180 turn in my life, now I’m making it a priority of telling others that CHRIST’s death and shedding of blood is not a license to keep on sinning. Everybody who accepts CHRIST as thier personal SAVIOR need to make a 180 turn. Me, you, and all who accepts CHRIST.

  • Sims Simon

    Actions speak louder than words. A murderer or a pedophile, just as a homophobe is a person who continues to defy the LAW, to not have repented nor given a 180 turn against the Golden Rule.

    Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

  • Bones

    There are people blowing themselves up in the middle east who have made a 180 degree turn in their life.

    All we’ve seen from you is ignorance, fear and judgement of others.

    Your Christ is the false Christ who condemns others and divides.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense Sims, I don’t give the middle finger to no one. JESUS came to preach love but also strong indignation rebuke those who were teaching falsehood.

  • Bones

    Christ didn’ t give those laws.

    He didn’t give laws for women to marry their rapist.

    He didn’t give laws which said that women can’t divorce men yet men can divorce women.

    He didn’t give laws that men can screw single women and it isn’the adultery.

    Both of those laws in the Torah Jesus condemned in Mark 10:2-10.

    Jesus didn’t give the hideous law in Deuteronomy that a woman who is accused by her husband of not being a virgin is subject to a public vaginal examination and if found guilty stoned to death whereas nothing happens to non- virgin males.

    Jesus didn’t give laws stating that women, the sick and certain foods are unclean.

    He repudiated those.

    It was the Pharisees who followed the letter of the law.

    Jesus condemned them for it.

    Like he condemns you.

  • Bones

    Nope. Because they weren’ t given by God. They are man made laws.

  • Bones

    So you don’t know if God had sex with Mary….

  • Ruben Ponce

    I don’t embrace Westboro doctrine. They don’t like military. My family is military. But no one should embrace homosexuality because its an abomination to GOD. JESUS is GOD.

  • Bones

    The pharisees followed the Law word for word.

    You do know about them right?

  • Ruben Ponce

    I don’t hate homosexuals, its their lifestyle that I don’t like. And I really hope some will make that 180 in their lives, repend, and start living the way GOD intended them to live.

  • Ruben Ponce

    To murderers and all, I tell them the same, need to take a 180 turn and leave the old self behind.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Mr. Bones, rest assured if they are blowing themselve up, they have not made a 180 turn and given themselves to JESUS.

  • Bones

    They are both rape accounts of a single woman and a betrothed woman.

    Otherwise the law has no mention of raping single women at all.

    And according to the Law married men could screw single women. Married women however were executed for adultery.

    Just like ISIS.

  • Bones

    I’m not interested in Christ coming again.

    You should be.

  • Bones

    The point is history is littered with fanatical converts to any religion who have made 180 degree turns and ended up WORSE human beings.

    There are atheists and Muslims who have a better understanding of Christ and living his teaching than you are.

    You are no example of Jesus.

    You are a pharisee who condemns others and ignores the truth.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I’ve already sent you scriptures and nowhere does if refernce a rapist marrying their victim. And yes CHRIST has always been there since the creation of the world. There is only one reference where divorce is granted and even that is not a license just to get a divorce. Sex outside of marraige is fornication, also unacceptable, it takes two to fornicate. I didn’t say being sick is unclean, but you can’t be having sex with your wife during her period.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Now you’re denying the same GOD that you are trying to defend.

  • Bones

    And you continue to show your ignorance. The verses about single women and betrothed women are about rape….

    People aren’t unclean when they bleed or when they eat foods or when they are sick.

    Men could have sex outside of marriage. It was called concubines.

    My god you are so thick.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thats right Mr. Bones, all I know is the SPIRIT of GOD overshadowed her and she became pregnant. GOD is awesome.

  • Bones

    No because God didn’t give them…..

    That’s why we don’t go around killing people for working on the Sabbath. ..

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense Mr. Bones, they didn’t followed the law, John the Babtist called them generation of vipers. JESUS called them hypocrites.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Don’t confuse the two. They both involve sex, one is called adultery, the other is called fornication. Both unacceptable

  • Ruben Ponce

    You already said HE is not coming. Please send a scripture where HE is not coming, and I’ll send some where HE is coming.

  • Bones

    He probably isn’ t. Many of the verses in the gospels about Jesus’s coming were actually about the destruction of the temple.

    Revelation isn’t a futuristic text either.

  • Bones

    it’s not confusing they are both about rape.

    Now tell me what is the punishment for raping an unbetrothed woman in the Torah?

    And what do you think a concubine is?????

  • Bones

    We know all about who these Pharisees were.

    They were fundamentalists and hard line followers of the Law.

    Through the Torah, they excluded women, gentiles and the sick and made a purity class.

    The kingdom of God which Jesus preached was the opposite to the exclusiveness of the Torah.

    Which is why they hated Jesus.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I agree with the fact that through out history fanaticals jave given their lives to cults. Many have blownen themselves up in the name of a false god. Thats why I feel blessed to not fall prey into this false religion which CHRIST preached about. The same goes to how CHRIST wants all of us to live, a righteous moral living.

  • Bones

    And you reckon you’re different…..

    Nope… you sound like ISIS.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I sense that you don’t want people telling you that your way of living is not right, thats why you keep pointing to bad behaviors to justify other bad behaviors. All anyone can do is to tell you, the rest is up to you.

  • Ruben Ponce

    If GOD didn’t gave them, then who did. There has to be a name in the Bible as to who gave those laws. I’m interested in who this man is. Can you give me a name.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Ok. Lol. Thats two down for you. I sent you for a name of who wrote the laws in the OT, Leviticus and Deuter. You say they’re man made. Don’t hit three.

  • Bones

    Oh dear…..you really do have this dogma stuff bad….

    What will you do if I hit three.

    Come to kill me….

  • The Meaning Of The Hebrew Word TSELEM

    There is an abstract and concrete meaning to many Hebrew words and expressions, and I’m not going Talmudic or Kabbalistic when I bring this up. The word TSELEM in the Hebrew may concretely refer to an actual image, but can also refer to the “essence” or “character” of Yahuah in the act of Him “breathing into Adam” (NESHAH). The purpose of Yahuah is given in the same sentence, “that they rule.”

    To “rule” with the same character of Yahuah over the other creatures He created is the obvious context the term TSELEM is used in. It would be out of context to assume He intended to infuse the same “appearance” into the Adam. The BYNV does not translate “NESHAH” as “Let Us make,” but rather “I breathe into . . . ”

    There’s no way to get “Let Us make” out of the Hebrew word NESHAH.

    This also makes Gen. 1:26 balance with 2:7, since both verses refer to the same action. We’ve inherited so much confusion, Jer. 16:19 is becoming apparent.

    http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/letusmake.html

  • Bones

    God didn’t give them..

    They were compiled by priests during the Exile of the Jews. Some of the laws eg the rape ones are word for word taken from the Babylonians.

    There are Jewish communities such as at Elephantine which didn’t have a Torah into the the 5th century BCE..

  • Bones

    Please.

    The history of Christianity is immoral as is the Torah.

    Most people are living and getting through this life the best they can.

    And no I don’t go around telling my divorced Christian friends how bad they are.

    I’m too busy getting right with myself, my neighbor , my god.

    God didn’t appoint Christians as morality police.

  • Bones

    Christ’s teaching is love the sinner, hate YOUR OWN sin.

  • Bones

    That’s because your analogy is ridiculous.

    And yes it’s people like you who see intersex as freaks or less than human or as someone has already posted, satanic.

  • Bones

    How many gay people have you killed?

  • Bones

    Thanks for that.

    I was wondering why the Hebrews would have God saying Let US make God in OUR image when they were monotheists.

    Do you see that as a deliberate mistranslation?????

    Another reason why Jewish scholars need to be on Bible translation teams.

  • Ruben Ponce

    The torah was given to the Israelites by GOD (JESUS).

  • Ruben Ponce

    Im different between night and day comparing to Isis. I’m trying to get you to know JESUS, while Isis will tell you to blow yourself up in the name of allah. Big big mistake.

  • Bones

    Nope…..

    Jesus repudiated the Torah. ….

    That’s why you don’t go around killing gays, non-virgin women, people working on the Sabbath. …

  • Ruben Ponce

    Lol jk. But in all honesty Im just trying to open your spiritual eyes.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Wait a minute Mr. Bones, they were still in the desert when the laws were given. They weren’t yet in captivity by the Babylonians. They didn’t have priests when GOD was writing the Ten Commandments.

  • Bones

    No.

    They were written and compiled during the Exile and post-exile.

    They were not written in the desert. And God did not dictate to Moses who if he did exist had been dead for centuries. …

    When they were written, the Jews already had their priestly class.

    As I said we know about the Jewish community at Elephantine from documents recovered in the 5th century BE.

    They had no Torah.

  • Ruben Ponce

    No, don’t go around telling your friends how bad they are, but do please advice them from their wrongful (if they are living a sinful ) life.

  • Bones

    You have closed your mind like other religious fanatics have.

    They all claim to have ‘spiritual truth’ when it’s just opinion dressed up in spiritual jargon.

    This is the problem with religion.

    It breeds ignorance where anything that contradicts their intrrpretations of supposed holy books like the Bible, the Book of Mormon or the Koran is not truth.

  • Bones

    No.

    Your God kills gays and executes adulterers.

    The exact same as ISIS.

  • Bones

    Nope.

    You aren’t the morality police.

    You need to take the log out of your own eye.

    And you have a rather big one in yours.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Hate all sin for one is not better than the other. Sin is sin no matter how big or small.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Thats not even a logical question.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil

  • Ruben Ponce

    My goodness, don’t let these other cults drag you into denying GOD andd CHRIST. We’re living in crazy times my friend. All the prediction of CHRIST to HIS apostles have come to pass, there’s only a few left and they’re rapidly approaching. Exo 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Those other books rejects CHRIST blood. Then claim they can go to Heaven by other means. This is what CHRIST said: Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

  • Ruben Ponce

    We are living in times of Grace through CHRIST JESUS, where we can go straight to the father and ask for forgivness, but this is not a license to keep on sining by living the same way. We need to make that 180 turn in our lives and repent.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I ask for forgiveness daily, for no one is perfect.

  • Bones

    So you’re a relativist…..or God changes His mind…..

    Too bad if you were a gay person in Ancient Israel. You’d be stoned to death or have your throat cut….

    We see that in the Middle East and it is decidedly immoral.

    According to you Jesus tells the Jews they can’t eat certain foods as it makes them unclean then Jesus changes His mind by the time the gospels are around and he says it’s not what goes into a person that makes them unclean but what comes out of them…..

    What you don’t realise is that you are locked into the exact same legalistic mindset of the Pharisees.

    Yo can’t repent of that because you won’t acknowledge that it’s a problem or a sin.

  • Bones

    That’s irrelevant.

    Their adherents claim they have spiritual truths and they make the same assertions and assumptions that you make about your text and they close their ears to anyone or any idea that contradicts their ‘truth’. Just like you.

    And get a decent translation.

    The KJV is so riddled with errors it isn’t funny.

  • Bones

    Why?

    You believe the Torah. It tells you to kill gay people…..

  • Feel free to believe whatever you want, that the moon is made of green cheese, whatever.

    What are the symptoms of homochromosexuality? The most salient characteristic is the rigid, irrational delusion that sex is dimorphic and that chromosomes determine the real sex of an individual. This obviously combines irreconcilable thought processes which are contradictory and causes those suffering from homochromosexuality to illogically manipulate data to fit their irrational need to refuse the
    fact that people are extremely diverse and that there is a spectrum of sex variations in the natural world. Despite the fact that data prove that there are not just two sexes and that the sex development process is very complex with numerous parts of the body being involved, all of
    which can take different pathways within the same individual, these people stubbornly cling to the idea that there is a marker somewhere for the “true” sex of an individual and that there are only two sexes.
    Whereas the general population often shares this delusion, it is not a psychosis in most people because they are not obsessed with the delusion to the degree that many researchers, religious leaders and certain
    radical feminists are, who often spend a large part of their lives in useless research and polemics to defend their delusional thinking.
    However, the damage of this psychosis affects the general population in very tragic and sometimes deadly ways. One of the characteristics that homochromosexuals have in common is their fetish for chromosomes as the most important marker of a person’s true sex despite all the evidence to the contrary.

    Let’s consider this fetish for chromosomes which seems to be the most basic symptom of this psychiatric disorder. Essentially, fetishism is attributing some kind of inherent value or powers to an object. For example, the person who sees magical or divine significance in a material object is mistakenly ascribing inherent value to some object which does not possess that value. (2) For quite a while now it has been established as a scientific fact that a “Y” chromosome does not make one male and in fact the “Y” chromosome is not a reliable marker for determining the sex of an individual. For example, there are XY-females who have become pregnant and given birth, some more than once. (See also footnote 3)
    There are individuals who have no Y chromosome who have fully developed male anatomy. Despite all the facts, this fetish for chromosomes appears epidemic among certain ideologically based groups

    Footnotes
    (2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetishism

    (3) http://www.gendercare.com/library/italiano_paper3.html

    See also: http://www.cmj.org/periodical/PaperList.asp?id=LW9058 and jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/short/jc.2007-2155v1

  • Sims Simon

    From the non-homophobic world, you homophobes all have the same behavior to follow the westboro church to have the same doctrine and beliefs. You people think that you are Christian, but you do not believe in Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm as you do not follow any of His teachings with your lifestyle of homophobia and bigotry.

    The reason you don’t embrace gays but to label them as homosexuals, is for you homophobes to demonstrate your belief in the Westboro doctrine and your anti-Christ lifestyle to hate gays, Christ and all of His teachings.

  • Sims Simon

    When you homophobes hate Christ, you continue to lie that you don’t hate gays, but in reality of you hate them through your actions to call and judge them as homosexuals so as to condemn them by voting, legislating and supporting man-made laws of discrimination to physically harm them.

    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

    Congrats to all gay couples exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us.

    Christ hates your lifestyle of homophobia, just as He hates adulterer, pedophiles, murderers,etc… of you to hate Him when you choose to disobey His commands of the LAW.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”
    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”

    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..

  • Sims Simon

    Yes, you can be telling others to stop a certain act of mortal sin, but you encourage others to commit another act of mortal sin of homophobia

    You homophobes are of no difference to murderers, pedophiles, hackers, terrorists, etc… to be defying the LAW for you to be doing wicked things unto other as what you would not want others to do unto you.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.

  • Sims Simon

    When you continue to choose a lifestyle of homophobia as what you demonstrate here to continue to defy the LAW, you simply hate Him and with so many times of me showing you about the LAW, you keep denying it to not believe in His words.

    Actions speak louder than words.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.

    You can continue to lie and deny of your anti-Christ lifestyle of homophobia and bigotry as much as you want to deceive yourself and some, but you can never deceive all nor Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. I’m only here to expose you of your wickedness.

    Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

    Matthew 13….For the hearts of these people are hardened, and their ears cannot hear, and they have closed their eyes so their eyes cannot see, and their ears cannot hear, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and let me heal them.’
    “But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, but they didn’t see it. And they longed to hear what you hear, but they didn’t hear it.

  • Kenneth James Abbott

    -That’s because your analogy is ridiculous.-
    The fact that you don’t like something doesn’t make something ridiculous. In fact, judging by your posts so far, the fact that you don’t like something is evidence to its veracity.

    -And yes it’s people like you who see intersex as freaks or less than human or as someone has already posted, satanic.-
    The only references to “satanic” are “Anonymous Sam”‘s sarcastic references to “Freemasion Illuminati Satanic Catholic Jews,” a claim that the people being mocked by that claim are actually satanic, Ledgerwood’s attempt to twist the Bible into “Jesus = Satan”–and your posts, in which you continually, falsely accuse others of calling something satanic.

    You are,yet again, a liar.

    It’s people like you know know the facts aren’t on your side, and instead try to bury them with false accusations.

  • cowalker

    The described and clearly gloried-in ignorance is depressing.

  • Bones

    It’s astounding but as we can see from this thread its hardly uncommon.

    I’m more and more beginning to hate religion….

  • Bones

    And in Matthew 5, Jesus says repeatedly ” You have heard it said” (the Law)…”but I say to you….” (don’t follow it)

    The whole point of the gospel of Matthew is to show that Jesus is the fulfilment of Judaism…

  • Bones

    If they have two working sex organs why not?

  • Bones

    He’s completely stupid…

  • Bones

    Wrong again as per usual. You must be a masochist who likes getting their arse handed to them.

    There are trans and intersex people posting on here.

    Now is your chance to tell them to become a real human being and that they are supposed to be normal like yourself.

    Btw here is your lunatic mate on here that believes God only made men in the image of God because God has to have a dick….

    Ruben Ponce
    24 days ago

    “All nonsense, this is only another lie from satan trying to destroy humanity(GOD’s creation). Eunuchs were people who dedicated their lives to the service of their masters(as slaves were legal in the old and new testament) pretty much like nuns do in this age. Any growth or appendages on a body does not make a person intersex, its just that, an appendage or growth that will serve no purpose and have no functionality. Its no different than having an extra stump as a sixth finger or a deformed ear lobe that will not serve as an hearing aide.”

    Fundamentalism – a game for all the ignorant to play.

  • The ethical question is – how many kids is it OK to seriously harm or
    kill so that some others don’t get to feel mildly uncomfortable? What’s
    the ratio of acceptable losses? 1 death/injury to 1000 uncomfy? 1 to
    10,000? 1 to 100,000?

    Remember a large number of those who
    object to Trans and Intersex kids being able to use the same restrooms
    as Christian kids don’t think Trans and Intersex kids are really human,
    on religious grounds. They see it as all part of a plot to teach
    Evil-ution, and in extreme cases, a Round Earth.

    “We want our
    kids protected when they go to school, and their Christian values should
    be allowed to be expressed,” parent Anthony Walden told Fox 5.

    Anthony
    Walden , a parent, said allowing transgender students to use the
    restroom of their choice is part of a “socialist, liberal, godless
    ideology” that is threatening public education and has forced the
    teaching of evolution, the removal of Christian prayer, and the
    introduction of “the homosexual agenda.”

    However, if they
    and you think you can intimidate the human race into bowing down to your
    perverse agenda, you had better guess again. You cannot hide the
    reality of your condition and motives forever. WE are the human race and
    you are tolerated only to a point.– Steven Mark Pilling, Chair of the Harris County TX GOP, on Intersex kids.

  • Please don’t. All the Christians I know personally are really good people, and their religion is part of that.

    It’s when Church and Politics are in an unHoly alliance, that both get corrupted.

  • Ruben Ponce

    There are many names given to people and lord knows where all thiis names come from, idealist, creationist,relativist and bla bla bla. Its not really that hard, just believe in CHRIST read the Bible and apply it to yourself, find a church thats GOD loving GOD fearing, one that does not preach that we are now living in paradise and that all is good.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Wrong again Mr. Bones, they don’t make the same assertions the Bible claims, thats why I don’t read the book of mormon or the koran.

  • Ruben Ponce

    GOD gave those laws to Israel because HE want Israel to HIMSELF, a clean people, not to mingle and do as people of other lands full of filth and sin. Thats why GOD disposed of them and gave Israel their land. But as time passed, Israel rebelled and intermarry with the heathens. Thats why GOD also disposed of Israel and gave them into captivity. You’ve got alot to learn my friend.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Leave all those papers alone my friend, channel your time and energy on GOD and HIS CHRIST.GOD is not wrong will never be wrong and HIS CHRIST(JESUS) is coming soon. We are in those last days, and when I say last days I don’t mean a few weeks, because no one knows. It could be a few hundred yrs. or at the twinkling of an eye.

  • Ruben Ponce

    After the Judgement Day when GOD settles HIS kingdom on this planet, there aren’t going to be homosexuals, adulters, drunkness, distortionerss,ect.ect.. Do be left out

  • The first human beings knew and spoke with Yahuah. All the prophets knew Yahuah was “one.” Yahuah told us we are His witnesses that He is Alahim. Hebrews chapter 1 confirms that Yahusha is Yahuah, the final manifestation to men. Mashiak in you is the secret of the ages. The One indwelling us informs us of Who He is: we are vessels holding a precious treasure: the Living One.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nobody knows when each one of us are going to die, best be prepared, Heaven or hell is not something to take lightly.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Im telling you my friend homosexuality will not inherit Heaven, its in both the OT and NT. GOD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because those cities were full of homosexuality.

  • Sims Simon

    Thank Christ, we have Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm to give life to all those who love Him to obey His commands of the LAW. Feel so sorry for your choice of lifestyle to hate Him, but to love a homophobic God who celebrate all the sins of sexual immoralities of divorce, adultery, rape, pedophile together with other sinners of murderers, homophobes, thieves, terrorists, etc.. so long as they come forth to get married as a man & a woman.

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”

  • Sims Simon

    When we have Christ and the LAW, we don’t need to be afraid, but you choose to not believe in Him, to hate Him and to defy the LAW.

    Good luck!

  • Sims Simon

    Your words have no importance over what Christ said in the LAW, the Great Commandment.

    What you homophobes do not realize due to your complete blindness from hate, is that you yourselves and the people of Sodom have something similar that you share : the mortal sin of hate to go against the Great Commandment of Christ, such that you do NOT do unto others as what they would want others to do unto you.

    In Sodom, the local people there demonstrated their hate to not welcome visitors and people they don’t like, by sexually raping them, just as also in the story in judges 19, as a demonstration of the primitive innate character of sexual dominance, as in many animal kingdom and mankind as well. Rapists and pedophiles still exert that sexual dominance unto their victims while the infamous four letter word is today’s verbal version of that sexual assault is most commonly used, as what some homophobes are doing right down to curse me! (yep I know what you do!!).

    That’s also why when Christ sent His apostles to the cities, He was encouraging them with the remark of how God is against people who are unwelcoming to visitors as in Sodom where the local men RAPED men as sexual assault, not so much so that they would end up in gay bars for a drink or to be caught pants down as in Mark 14:51-52 : “A young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment, was following Jesus. When they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.”

    We can see today how homophobes demonstrate their hate towards gays and Christ (who hung around with 12 men disciples and never married any women) by disobeying all of His words. Homophobes are condemned in the same way as the rapists of Sodom, for the wages of their mortal sin is death.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense my friend it doesn’t say such. That fact is we all have only two choices, either good or bad, Heaven or hell.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I never diviated from the Bible. Unless you are also an atheist or agnostic you will think the same way as does Mr. Bones and Mr. Sims and a few others.

  • Ruben Ponce

    All the acts you mentioned are an abmination but you keep omitting homosexualism.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense, what I tell you, I tell all my friends and family.

  • Ruben Ponce

    CHRIST was there when HE destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for homosexualism.

  • Bones

    What complete garbage.

    Matthew 5

    21 “You have heard that [k]the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be [l]liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be [m]guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘[n]You good-for-nothing,’ shall be [o]guilty before [p]the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be [q]guilty enough to go into the [r]fiery hell. 23 Therefore if you are presenting your [s]offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your [t]offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your [u]offering. 25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last [v]cent.

    27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you [w]stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [x]to lose one of the parts of your body, [y]than for your whole body to be thrown into [z]hell. 30 If your right hand makes you [aa]stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you [ab]to lose one of the parts of your body, [ac]than for your whole body to go into [ad]hell.

    31 “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who [ae]divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a [af]divorced woman commits adultery.

    33 “Again, you have heard that [ag]the ancients were told, ‘[ah]You shall not [ai]make false vows, but shall fulfill your [aj]vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or [ak]by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is [al]of evil.

    38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your [am]shirt, let him have your [an]coat also. 41 Whoever [ao]forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may [ap]be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore [aq]you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

  • Bones

    You keep omitting eating shellfish….

  • Bones

    Nope…..

    Had nothing to do homosexuality….

  • Bones

    The Pharisees never deviated from the Bible either…..

    “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.

  • Ruben Ponce

    In all those quotes you just posted you’ll find Heaven and hell. I’ve been trying to tell you.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I didn’t say eating shellfish is good. All I know is developed a distaste for sea food. Im not a seafood eater.

  • Ruben Ponce

    You are denying the same GOD you’re trying to defend. CHRIST has been there since the creation of this world.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Of course they did, thats why John the Babtist called them generation of vipers, and CHRIST called them hypocrites.

  • Mr. G.

    Given that the ACTUAL experience in almost 200 jurisdictions across the USA that have allowed transgendered folks to use the restrooms they identify with for as much as 40 years in some cases with ZERO uptick in the incidence of sexual assaults in restrooms, your imaginary fears are soundly debunked as fatuous.

  • Kenneth James Abbott

    -Wrong again as per usual.-
    Heh. As per usual, I’m right simply because I’m stating an obvious fact, and you’re lying about it.

    -You must be a masochist who likes getting their arse handed to them.-
    If you could actually win an argument, you wouldn’t have to spend so much time telling people you won.

    -Now is your chance to tell them to become a real human being-
    Except I never claimed they weren’t real human beings. Do you have any claims that AREN’T based on silly, childish slander?

    -All nonsense, this is only another lie from satan trying to destroy humanity(GOD’s creation).-
    That’s not a claim that “intersex” people are satanic. You’re lying again–as per usual.

  • Bones

    Nope……

    Sodom and Gomorrah didn’t happen.

    Like the other legends…

    And BTW the story is about rape or do you have gay people coming to rape your guests.

  • Bones

    Fundamentalists don’t care who they destroy.

    It’s all about the ‘truth’.

  • Bones

    I tried to find the obvious fact that you posted…..

    But it must be buried under false assumptions, massive sulks and stupid analogies…..

    Of course your having a massive sulk because Transgender people are using bathrooms they’ve been using for decades.

    Of course if you actually encountered a Trans person you’do be too chicken shit to say anything.

    But I see your defending your retarded mate.

    Why am I not surprised……

    ‘Silly childish slander”

    That’s what gay and Trans people get from you people all the time.

    You revel in it.

    In fact it makes you feel good.

  • Bones

    Yes that’s what Jesus calls those who place the Law over compassion and mercy.

    Like yourself.

  • Bones

    Homosexuals will get to heaven before you…..

  • Bones

    Ergo “I don’t hate gays. I just hate that they’re gay”

    I don’t hate fundamentalists….I just hate that they’re so frickin stupid.

  • Bones

    Hopefully you don’t cause too much destruction before you come out of this cultic mindset.

  • Sims Simon

    Indeed, homosexualism when it is referring to rape of men unto men, just as done in Sodom of people committing the same act of sin of you homophobes to defy the LAW.

    The commandment “To love thy neighbor AS THYSELF” and the Golden rule are not suggestions written in the bible, but they are the LAW, the highest set of laws of the entire bible that Followers of Christ obey and do to have eternal life. Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us.

    Again, go and repent or perish to not have eternal life.

  • Sims Simon

    Indeed, when you hate Christ, all of His teachings of the LAW are nonsense to your Westboro doctrine.

    Good luck!

  • Sims Simon

    Indeed, Christ is here destroying your community who practice the same sin as in Sodom, for you to defy the LAW and non-sexually raping others of their rights to live by the LAW. That’s why all the hate laws of discrimination that you homophobes have put, are being destroyed. Just as He destroyed Scalia to be removed from SCOTUS and to send him literally to hell for siding with you to do wicked and evil things.

    Proverbs 28:9 If one turns away his ear from hearing the LAW, even his prayer is an abomination.

    See, when you embrace the Westboro doctrine of false teachings, what Christ called good you call evil, what Christ called evil you call good.

    Good luck with your anti-Christ lifestyle of sodomites to hate Christ and the LAW.

    John 14:15 If you love me, obey my commands.
    John 10:30, “I and the Father are one.”

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”
    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..
    Matthew 22:34-40….All the LAW and the Prophets hang on these two commandments
    Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the LAW and the Prophets.
    Galatians 5:14 – For the entire LAW is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
    James 2:8 – If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself”, you do well;
    Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

  • Bones

    My wife loves shellfish…….as do all my family….as did Jesus…..

    As we can see this is all about personal taste and finding verses that support it.

    eg

    “I didn’t say eating gay sex is good. All I know is developed a distaste for gay sex. Im not into gay sex.”

  • Bones

    Obviously.

    But you like going around telling OTHERS how bad they are….

    Jesus specifically spoke against people like you.

  • Bones

    Oh I believe in Christ….

    He’s nothing like yours though…..

    THe Christ of the gospels was egaliitarian and believed in equality. He had no time for fundamentalist religious exclusivists who perverted religion and used a book to ‘lord it over others’.

    We may not be living in paradise but is a damn sight better than 50 /100/200/500/1000/10000 years ago…….

    It’ll be even better when your type of thinking dies out…..

  • The harm to Intersex and Trans kids is all too real. Only the harm to other kids “from perverts pretending to be trans” is a fantasy.

    The ethical question is – how many Intersex or Trans kids is it OK to seriously harm or kill so that some others don’t get to feel mildly uncomfortable?

  • I found it interesting that the pictures were all female-looking. The most common intersex, Klinefelter’s (XXY), tends to have male features for the most part, and many XXY persons don’t find out until further research is carried out after a sperm test.

    Lacking microscopes to look for sperm in biblical times, the bible is in error in calling people with Klinefelter’s syndrome “eunuchs”. A majority of XXY persons, including myself, have full sexual functionality – we just don’t have sperm. We are not eunuchs. We do have sexual organs, contrary to the Jewish writings; and Augustine’s writings fit some, but certainly not all of us. Recent studies have shown that in the persons with XXY who have sexual functionality, sexual urges tend to be stronger than that of XY persons.

  • Mr. G.

    My apologies. I misunderstood your previous post. It appears that you and I agree entirely on this matter. The imaginary fears that I mistakenly ascribed to you are, indeed, total fantasy, and, as you say, the harms to Intersex and Trans people are well documented.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Its in your Bible, read it. The man Lot even offered his two virgin daughters to them, but they refused the females, they wanted the two men (angels) that were there in Lot’s home.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I’m not judging or hating, I’m trying to open your spiritual eyes, homosexuality is evil, demonic, and will not inheirt Heaven. What I tell you I tell all homosexuals, leave this demonic lifestyle.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Not according to the Bible, both in the OT and NT.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Gays aren’t stupid, they’re just been influenced by some demonic thinking. They need prayers and guidence, and you might be able to help if at least one.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Trust me I won’t, but even if I help one gay person to leave this demonic lifestyle out of thousands, it will be worth my time.

  • Ruben Ponce

    It does not matter if its the hightest or the lowest, all must be followed.
    Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

  • Ruben Ponce

    I’m not Westboro doctrine, they’re anti military, my family is military.

  • Sims Simon

    So basically as usual for you to hate Christ, you deny of His teachings of the LAW and what He said in :

    Mark 12:28-34…..There is no commandment greater than these…..

    That’s why He called people like as swine who don’t know what are pearls, and dogs who don’t know what is sacred. You follow all the non-essential laws, but defy the highest commandment of the entire Bible that gives eternal life.

  • Sims Simon

    It’s your actions of what you do that defines you, not the title nor the label of Christianity that you try to hide behind.

    You embrace their doctrine to reject all the teachings of Christ the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm and use words of other prophets to justify your mortal sin.

    Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nobody is defying the laws of CHRIST, to the contrary I am advocating for the laws, all of them.

  • Sims Simon

    Your actions of wickedness speak louder than your continual words of lies and denials.

    You embrace the Westboro doctrine of false teachers and non-essential laws in order to justify your actions to put man-made laws of hatred towards gays and to also celebrate all the sins of sexual immoralities of divorce, adultery, rape, pedophile together with other sinners of murderers, homophobes, thieves, terrorists, etc.. so long as they come forth to get married as a man & a woman.

    You can continue to lie and deny of your anti-Christ lifestyle of homophobia and bigotry as much as you want to deceive yourself and some, but you can never deceive all nor Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. I’m only here to expose you of your wickedness.

    Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
    Thats good, glad to hear that.

  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense Mr. Bones, I don’t go around telling people how bad they are. I tell that homosexualism is a demonic lifestyle.

  • Dawn Cowell

    Being gay is not a sin. First, we are no longer OT law and the word homosexual was not added to the BIble until the 1800’s. Also, are you aware God made over 1,500 species that practice homosexuality. Ya know, years back the church thought left handed people were evil do you still believe that? Many circles of Christianity argue over things in the Bible like the trinity, the end times, some say you are not truly saved unless you speak in tongues etc. Let God be God. All people need is to find Christ and follow him. I recall when I was at christian college and many argued about inter racial dating and marriage which is not sin same as someone’s sexuality. Here are some links to look at and think about whether or not what your church is teaching is true or not. I also find it interesting slowly more and more christian theologians are supporting the lgbt community such as Tony Campolo, David Gushhee, Benjaimin L Corey, Mel White, Matthew Vines, Rev Mark Sandlin, and John Pavlovitz to name a few.
    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thegodarticle/2011/10/clobbering- biblical-gay-bashing /http://time.com/2842044/gay-christians/ http://www.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/

    Reply

  • Ruben Ponce

    Of course, in the not too distant future GOD will set HIS kingdom on this earth and all evil will parish. No more fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

  • Dawn Cowell
  • Ruben Ponce

    Nonsense Sims, I’m denying CHRIST’s teaching, to the contrary I’m encouraging it. And by doing so maybe one homosexual person will see that the lifestyle of homosexualism is demonic.

  • Sims Simon

    Your actions of wickedness to vote, legislate and support man-made laws of discrimination unto gays who you hate and judge wrongly, speak louder than your continual words of lies and denials.

    You anti-Christ are encouraging people to embrace the Westboro doctrine and to defy the LAW to hate Christ, just as what you do in your actions to live a lifestyle of homophobia.

    You can continue to lie and deny of your anti-Christ lifestyle of homophobia and bigotry as much as you want to deceive yourself and some, but you can never deceive all nor Christ, the God who has never ever condemned homosexuality nor ssm. I’m only here to expose you of your wickedness.

    Ephesians 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

  • Ruben Ponce

    All those horrific acts will not inherit Heaven and also a lifestyle of homosexualism.

  • Sims Simon

    All acts are horrific when they are against the LAW for one to not live by the Golden Rule, such as you to be homophobes to judge gays wrongly, and then to do wicked things unto them by putting discrimination laws of hatred to physically harm them.

    The commandment “To love thy neighbor AS THYSELF” and the Golden rule are not suggestions written in the bible, but they are the LAW, the highest set of laws of the entire bible that Followers of Christ obey and do to have eternal life. Congrats to all gay couple exchanging marriage vows to love one another in all circumstances of life till death to them part, this is how the Great Commandment is fulfilled when we stay in a faithful relationship with our partner and treat all other people around us as what we would want them to treat us. To love God means to love thy neighbor as thyself, by doing unto others as what we would want others to do unto us.

    You homophobes, just like murderer, pedophiles, adulterers, etc… will not live as you will not have eternal life with your lifestyle to hate Christ to not obey His commands of the LAW.

    Luke 10:25-37…..”What is written in the LAW?”… “Do this and you will live.”

  • Ruben Ponce

    Dawn, then Ten Commandment are for here and now, for the whole world. Of course you will not find words in the Bible that we use in this time and age, like transgender and pedophile and others, but by reading a scripture you will know what the’re talking about. GOD never made any human or animal homosexual because homosexuality is demonic so much so that HE destroyed two cities (Sodom and Gomorrah) filled with homosexuality, HE rained fire and brimestone on them and totally obliterated those cities. Left handed people are not in the Bible as evil, so those churches that say they are, are in error, do not attend such churches. JESUS preached against those churches who put burdens on people by giving them many rules to follow, when all the gospel of JESUS is repent and believe in HIM. Repent means doing a 180 turn in your life and leave the old(self living) behind. And that includes all manner of unrighteous living and yes including homosexuality. As far a racial marraige, one cannot discriminate against it. Black is a race, Whites is a race, Hispanics is a race, homosexuality is not a race, its a form of un-natural and demonic lifestyle. Any church or pastor accepting such filthyness as marrying homosexuals in their church will see the wrath of GOD

  • Dawn Cowell

    1 John 5: 11 12 ” And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.” All someone must do is believe, confess and receive Jesus as their lord and savior. We can agree to disagree Ruben because their are lgbt Christians that will be apart or eternal life

  • Dawn Cowell

    Since God created everything in 7 days which includes animals and other species I must conclude since God is good so is his creation. http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/1500-animal-species-practice-homosexuality.aspx

  • Dawn Cowell

    Jesus death completed the law and the new law is one of LOVE ~ LOVE GOD, OTHERS, and YOURSELF!! http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/for-the-people-who-say-but-jesus-didnt-abolish-the-law/

  • Dawn Cowell

    Jesus never said anything about homosexuals. Here is some info from Matthew Vines book

    When I
    started writing my new book, God and the Gay Christian, I was well aware
    that Christians who oppose same-sex marriage in the church have long
    used the Bible to defend their point of view. As a gay Christian from an
    evangelical church in Kansas, that status quo has had a damaging impact
    on my life, which is one reason I’m setting out to change the faulty
    perspective. Here are 10 reasons why God accepts gay Christians.

    1. The term “homosexual” didn’t exist until 1892.
    Some modern Bible translations say that “homosexuals” will not inherit
    the kingdom of God, but neither the concept nor the word for people with
    exclusive same-sex attraction existed before the late 19th century.
    While the Bible rejects lustful same-sex behavior, that’s very different
    from a condemnation of all gay people and relationships.

    2. Sexual orientation is a new concept—one that the Christian tradition hasn’t addressed.
    Many Christians draw on their faith’s traditions to shape their
    beliefs, but the concept of sexual orientation is new. Until recent
    decades, same-sex behavior was placed in the same category with gluttony
    or drunkenness — as a vice of excess anyone might be prone to — not as
    the expression of a sexual orientation. The Christian tradition has
    never spoken to the modern issue of LGBT people and their relationships.

    3. Celibacy is a gift, not a mandate. The Bible
    honors celibacy as a good way of living — Jesus was celibate, after all —
    but it also makes clear that celibacy must be a voluntary choice.
    Requiring that all gay people remain celibate is at odds with the
    Bible’s teachings on celibacy, which are grounded Scripture’s core
    affirmation that God’s physical creation is good.

    4. Condemning same-sex relationships is harmful to the LGBT community.
    Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount that good trees bear good
    fruit, while bad trees bear bad fruit. The church’s rejection of
    same-sex relationships has caused tremendous, needless suffering to the
    LGBT community—bad fruit. Those harmful consequences should make
    Christians open to reconsidering the church’s traditional teaching.

    5. Sodom and Gomorrah involved an attempted gang rape, not a loving relationship.
    It’s commonly assumed that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah out of his
    wrath against same-sex relations, but the only form of same-sex behavior
    described in the story is an attempted gang rape — nothing like a
    loving, committed relationship. The Bible explicitly condemns Sodom for
    its arrogance, inhospitality and apathy toward the poor — not for
    same-sex behavior.

    6. The prohibitions in Leviticus don’t apply to Christians. Leviticus
    condemns male same-sex intercourse, but the entire Old Testament law
    code has never applied to Christians in light of Christ’s death.
    Leviticus also condemns eating pork, rabbit, or shellfish, cutting hair
    at the sides of one’s head, and having sex during a woman’s menstrual
    period — none of which Christians continue to observe.

    7. Paul condemns same-sex lust, not love. Like
    other ancient writers, Paul described same-sex behavior as the result of
    excessive sexual desire on the part of people who could be content with
    opposite-sex relationships. He didn’t have long-term, loving same-sex
    relationships in view. And while he described same-sex behavior as
    “unnatural,” he also said men having long hair goes against nature, and
    most Christians read that as a reference to cultural conventions.

    8. Marriage is about commitment. Marriage often
    involves procreation, but according to the New Testament, it’s based on
    something deeper: a lifelong commitment to a partner. Marriage is even
    compared to the relationship between Christ and the church, and while
    the language used is opposite-sex, the core principles apply just as
    well to same-sex couples.

    9. Human beings are relational. From the beginning
    of Genesis, human beings are described as having a need for
    relationship, just as God himself is relational. Sexuality is a core
    part of what it means to be a relational person, and to condemn LGBT
    people’s sexuality outright damages their ability to be in relationship
    with all people — and with God.

    10. Faithful Christians are already embracing LGBT brothers and sisters.
    Mainstream denominations like Presbyterians and Episcopalians now
    ordain openly gay clergy, and there are seeds of change in evangelical
    churches as well. This November, the Reformation Project will host a
    training conference for up to 900 LGBT-affirming Christians in
    Washington, D.C.—and the movement for change in conservative churches is
    just getting started.

    Matthew Vines is the author of God and the Gay Christian
    and is the founder of The Reformation Project, a Bible-based non-profit
    organization that seeks to reform church teaching on sexual orientation
    and gender identity. Matthew lives in Wichita, Kansas.

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    1. The term “homosexual” didn’t exist until 1892.
    Some modern Bible translations say that “homosexuals” will not inherit
    the kingdom of God, but neither the concept nor the word for people with
    exclusive same-sex attraction existed before the late 19th century.
    While the Bible rejects lustful same-sex behavior, that’s very different
    from a condemnation of all gay people and relationships.

    2. Sexual orientation is a new concept—one that the Christian tradition hasn’t addressed.
    Many Christians draw on their faith’s traditions to shape their
    beliefs, but the concept of sexual orientation is new. Until recent
    decades, same-sex behavior was placed in the same category with gluttony
    or drunkenness — as a vice of excess anyone might be prone to — not as
    the expression of a sexual orientation. The Christian tradition has
    never spoken to the modern issue of LGBT people and their relationships.

  • Bones

    Just because it’s in the Bible doesn’t mean it happened.

    They are myths and legends.

    Like the Tower of Babel myth.

  • Bones

    Nope. You are no different to the pharisees.

    If Christ came back you would kill him for accepting gay people.

    That’s what your religion is like.

  • Bones

    Actually the Kingdom of God is already here.

    It’s a shame you’re not a part of it.

  • Bones

    As you keep bleating.

    Yours is a demonic worldview.

  • Bones

    Matthew 15

    10 After Jesus called the crowd to Him, He said to them, “Hear and understand. 11 It is not what enters into the mouth that defiles the man, but what proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man.”

    Pretty much settles that then.

  • Kenneth James Abbott

    -I tried to find the obvious fact that you posted…..
    But it must be buried under false assumptions, massive sulks and stupid analogies-
    Considering there weren’t any of those three, I doubt that–but then again, if you didn’t have false accusations, you would’t have anything to post.

    -But I see your defending your retarded mate.
    Why am I not surprised.-
    Maybe because you accused him of something he blatantly didn’t do?

    But at least it’s not something against me personally–apparently you lie about everybody.

  • LadySunami

    They would only “die out” if they they were the only group in existence… And they aren’t.

    I mean you could say the same thing about neurosurgeons you know. If everyone in the world was a neurosurgeon, we’d all die of starvation. Does this mean nobody should try to become a neurosurgeon? Of course not! Just because food production jobs are necessary for continued human existance, doesn’t mean everyone on earth must get a job related to food production. In the same vein, just because the combining of men’s sperm and women’s eggs is necessary for our survival as a species, doesn’t mean we all need to be involved in heterosexual relationships. (Plus, surrogacy and sperm donation are a thing you know, so same-sex couples can have children too!)

  • LadySunami

    Where did Otrotierra indicate “anything goes” or “all is condoned”? Seems to me she is condemning certain behaviors which is the exact opposite of “anything goes.”
    When following the law of love, hate-filled condemnation is not something to be condoned or accepted.

  • Isa Almisry

    “Your implication is that people such as those with Down’s syndrome were not intended by God’s plan.”
    The people (or rather, persons) were, the syndrome was not.

    Light exists. Darkness does not:it results from the absence of light. “God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all.”

    Colossians sets up no distinction between creation/existence as a result of Christ/God the Word and salvation. It-along with the rest of Scripture-equates them.

    Defects do not exist apart from deviation from the intended norm. Eyes were created for seeing, ears for hearing. Those that do not, rendered defective from the Fall, deviate from what God planned them for. God’s adjustments to the Fall-which is what Ps 139 is talking about-made to undo the Fall doesn’t make them the norm.

    Deformities in the image and likeness result from sin. Holding them as norms would attribute God as the author of sin. The Book of Mormon teaches Him as such, but the real Bible repudiates such an idea.

    You are separating salvation from the rest of existence, rather than seeing it at the beginning, hence core, hence end (telos) of existence. The Gospel offers healing and saving as two sides of the same coin, something embodied in unction (James 5:14-5).

    As for Calvin and Arminius…I’ve never been quite sure about the status of which heretic is “right.” God is not limited by His refraining from acting. He is not determined. To hold otherwise would bar the Kenosis and Incarnation of God the Word.

  • Beth

    You may not be looking with clear vision.

  • carolyn

    I have just been directed to this article. Many thanks for writing it. I have long argued that INTERSEX conditions PROVE that the bible is wrong – there is not just Man who should lie with woman and vice versa. I usually also ask – Who should intersex people lie with? They are physically different – nothing to do with lifestyle / choice or sin. Do they not deserve love, just as every one else. One of the big issues for me is that when many of the intersex conditions are intermal in reality we have absolutely NO IDEA how many people have intersex condition. In truth, when many of them are internal, there will undoubtedly be people who eg believe that they are female and have grown up raised as a woman, having female on their birth certificate etc, who have married men, when in reality they might be genetically male. I regularly share an article about a woman for example who found this out about herself, who had a tiny undeveloped womb that they then grew, so she could carry children. Many therefore might already technically be in same sex relationships and marriages, with no idea whatsoever that this is the case. In reality the only people who MIGHT discover this are people who live in countries where there is medical care and this is also free at the point of contact (as in the UK) If there is no medical care or access to it, then chances are if someone fails to conceive, they will just remain childless and not have any investigation. If someone finds out that they are intersex, after marrying, what are they to do? Should they have to dissolve the marriage to conform with the law? For the sake of INTERSEX people alone, same sex marriages should be legalised immediately, so that they can “Become” legal, if the late discovery of an intersex condition means that they have to recognise that their union is now suddenly “deemed” illegal. Finally, the fact that there is not just clear cut man and clear cut woman, even in physical terms, seems to indicate that the world is not as clear cut as we would like it to be and that as well as a continuum of gender, there will also be continua (?) in terms of both attraction (Sexuality) and also ID (Trans). Outsides and insides do not always match and the world is not as simple as people would like to think. This article should be posted on EVERY SINGLE “Marriage is one man and one woman” site. The horrible message that these sites give, will in all likelihood lead to depression and suicides. The bible too condones the taking of slaves, says it is ok to marry your prisoners of war, your rape victims etc etc. It also says that it is an abomination to eat shellfish or to wear mixed fibres and although they say they are not judging, well I am sorry, but I do not see countless sites camaigning in relations to shellfish eating or religious sites condemning eg violence against women. None of these things are now accepted ir enforced, we have moved on, but they choose to continue to focus on this one issue. We need to move on on this front too. We cannot pick and choose what we want to enforce, according simply to what we want. God preached love and that is what we should be promoting.

  • carolyn

    I might add another issue. Intersex proves that the insides and outsides do not always match, as is the case with Trans. In the case of Trans individuals, religious sites regularly say that no one should be allowed to change what God gave them when they seek to have a sex change. For decades however, surgeons have intervened with Interesex babies. Operating on them in effect without their permission in order to try and make the child fit into the traditional “Binary” gender classification of male or female, whether this is appropriate or not. As stated, they have frequently got this wrong and nowadays they are leaving it, so that the person can decide for themselves, whether they want to have surgery to make them conform to one form or the other, or whether, as increasingly happens, they decide to remain intersex. The point from this, is that surgery to allter what God gave someone, is either right or wrong. You cannot argue that Trans people are wrong to seek surgery when doctors have thought nothing of interfering with what God gave intersex individuals. Insides and outsides do not always match, if it has been deemed ok to operate on babies without permission, how can it be wrong for a trans person to seek to align insides and outsides. Either way, surely it must be the decision of those who experience it.

  • Tiamat

    I’m going to step in and say I’d rather have more representation than less because it would have been nice to have had support from people who understood my odd body wasn’t a threat. And I classify myself as thirdsex, not third gender. I don’t actually care what gender people assign to me, it’s irrelevant because it doesn’t change reality — but my sex is not male or female and trying to make it so for the comfort of others only leads to uncomfortable surprises. Mostly uncomfortable for me– nothing like violence to make that abundantly clear.

    Also, even if you’re intersex yourself, do you really think it’s your place to speak for all of us and to remove an avenue of support from those members of the intersex ‘community’ who need it? I want my “I” in the alphabet soup. My unique issues as an intersex person are worth bringing to the table.

  • schlaflosig

    “Do they not deserve love, just as every one else”
    The mistake here is equating love and sex. Those are different things.

  • schlaflosig

    “You cannot argue that Trans people are wrong to seek surgery”
    Yes, I can and I do.

  • carolyn

    Did you actually think about what I wrote at all? You quoted only half the sentence. I will repeat it as you are clearly intent on only seeing the bits you want to bits you want to “react” to and not the bits that counter your view. Willful ignorance. “You cannot argue that Trans people are wrong to seek surgery when
    doctors have thought nothing of interfering with what God gave intersex
    individuals. Insides and outsides do not always match, if it has been
    deemed ok to operate on babies without permission, how can it be wrong
    for a trans person to seek to align insides and outsides.”

  • Bones

    Religious right finds a new hero….

    From dailymail.co.uk

    “Mom sues her 17-year-old transgender daughter for getting a male-to-female sex change without her permission

    A Minnesota mother has sued her 17-year-old transgender daughter, claiming she started undergoing a male to female gender transition without her permission.

    Anmarie Calgaro filed a lawsuit on Wednesday against her daughter and several agencies and health-care providers claiming her parental rights had been infringed when they helped the teen facilitate the sex-reassignment treatment without her knowledge.

    The statement, included in the complaint, states that the teenager’s mother ‘made it known to him that she no longer wishes to have any contact with him’ and that she ‘knows where he is and has made no attempts to bring him home’.

    The teen said