Young patriarch tells it like it is: Woman indeed is the weaker vessel; Sodomites hate God, and infiltrate churches to spit in God’s face … Am I controlling for keeping my woman away from these evil men? Then so be it.

Young patriarch tells it like it is: Woman indeed is the weaker vessel; Sodomites hate God, and infiltrate churches to spit in God’s face … Am I controlling for keeping my woman away from these evil men? Then so be it. February 5, 2012

(Trigger warning: patronizing, misogyny, homophobia...)

Last night, a patriarch-in-training named “Matt” spent a lot of time reading and commenting on the NLQ FAQ: What Is Quiverfull?

It’s possible that Matt is a troll and his comments should be ignored or deleted – but his arguments are not at all unlike the “biblical” beliefs which I heard taught/preached regularly during my Quiverfull days. I am assuming Matt is a young man based on his immaturity and know-it-all attitude – of course, given that patriarchs rarely grow up, it’s possible that he is an old man – maybe he’s the pastor of an IFB church.

So, without further ado – here’s Matt:

I take it from your post that you are dead set on fornicating, although the Bible tells you not to do that.

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.”

“Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.”

“This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.”

You are mistaking voluntary submission with involuntary servitude. As a Christian lady you are commanded to be subject to your husband, it is asked of you to submit. It doesn’t say “men, oppress your woman to all costs!”. As a Christian woman who claims to believe in the Word of God, which is inspired/breathed by God, your Creator, is it alright for you to dismiss what that Word says?

A woman surrenders to a man so easily when he takes charge. That is the danger of having a matriarch with a man in subjection. The woman indeed is the weaker vessel, tossed to and fro, giving in to whims, and judges things according to her motherly instinct. For instance, she would say sodomite couplings are lovely, because love is blind. A man who is not of God would say “I don’t care, to each their own”, but not mention love in the equation. A man of God would not even let a sodomite in under his roof or in the vincinity of his children!! Let me tell you something, love is not blind! Even infatuation is not blind. But infatuation and love are two different things. Love is a choice. Hate is a choice. I will hate the wicked and their deeds. Yes, hate. Furthermore, sodomites hate God, and infiltrate churches to spit in God’s face. You might say, “sodomites love each other, so what’s wrong with that”? I love my siblings, does that mean I have sexual relations with them?! I love men, as brothers. I love women, as sisters. But by God, there is only one person I take sexual pleasure in! Love is not sex. Learn it, woman.

So, if you’re a Christian woman, your God that you supposedly love, tells you to submit and be in subject to your husband in every thing. Am I a jealous man? Every man of God should be jealous! Just as God is jealous, and wants us only to worship him.

And why am I jealous? Because the woman is the weaker vessel, and evil men who have acknowledged this takes advantage, to defile you.

“This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

I’m telling you, there’s a lot of weak vessels, silly women, out there, who ungodly men lie in wait for. Am I controlling for keeping my woman away from these evil men? Then so be it. Yes, I am in control, but I love my woman enough to grant her freedom of thought and expression. She is as intelligent as I am, but still the weaker vessel, due to her willingness to surrender and submit to a man who takes charge. Ask yourself, how many men adopt the interests and beliefs of their wives? None. How many women adopts the interests and beliefs of their husbands? They are in abundance. It is clear that a woman submits to a man who rules her, even to the point of abuse, I’m sad to say. Therefore a Christian man is told to love his woman as himself. What man would abuse himself? He may abuse drugs or alcohol but not himself.

Discuss Matt’s ignorance on the NLQ forum.  Comments are also open below.

NLQ Recommended Reading …

Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment‘ by Janet Heimlich

Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland

Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce

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  • Sonneillon

    *cough* Trigger warnings might possibly apply to this post.

  • Red Pomegranate

    Oh submission. I think most of these folks would be so much happier if they just came out of the BDSM closet! Oh…wait…taken in hand. Um, nevermind.

  • nolongerquivering

    I thought about adding a trigger warning – only Matt’s comments are so ridiculous, it’s almost comical. But – you are probably right … 🙂 I’ll add the warning.

  • shadowspring

    “She is as intelligent as I am, but still the weaker vessel, due to her willingness to surrender and submit to a man who takes charge.”

    Wow, now that is a no-win double-bind. She has to submit because she’s the weaker vessel. The proof that she is a weaker vessel is that she does submit.

    Only one way to break this stereotype ladies. Stop the unilateral submission. It will not result in any honor of praise for your obvious Christian devotion, but will be used against you as proof you are inferior.

    Demand mutual submission, or leave the game. With these rules, you can not ever win. Save yourself years of abuse and depression and get out while your young. Run!

  • LMcC

    Wow. A man who thinks that poorly of women really needs to take a lifelong vow of celibacy. Divorce the wife, for God’s sake. If she is really that weak and easily misled, then why should he waste time having such a bad influence in his life? If she isn’t such a dreadful person, then she deserves better than that kind of treatment and needs to get away from him ASAP. There isn’t another option… Well, there is mutual submission, but men like that do not have the courage to humble themselves and discover the truth. So.. run, woman, run!

  • Eowyn

    “I love my woman enough to grant her freedom of thought and expression.”

    North Korea called. They need their attitude back.

  • Circular thinking, misogyny, homophobia and gender-based discrimination. Matt managed to cover all his bases.

  • Nefer

    “Therefore a Christian man is told to love his woman as himself. What man would abuse himself? He may abuse drugs or alcohol but not himself.”

    This is a sample of Matt’s thinking and reasoning ability?

    Matt, dear, to abuse alcohol or drugs, is, in fact, to abuse yourself.

    Sorry, but with that kind of reasoning on display, there is no reason for me to consider the rest of your un-Christ-like ramblings.

  • Former Patriarch’s Wife

    “Matt” is a very sick man. Seriously. He is not a well person. He is mentally ill. And that is sad. But what is even MORE sad is that he has a whole religious camp devoted to beliefs like his, a camp he can join, where he can have his insanity supported, encouraged, and promoted.


    Matt’s words are the same as Vision Forums, Pearls, etc, only a little less cultured, a little more in your face, a little more obvious. Thankfully, he does not have the IQ points of Doug Phillips, which means his opinion will be less damaging than Phillips, who is able to use his brain to dress up his misogyny and abuse and make it more palatable, even desirable, to people who want to follow God “the right way.” …Or like my ex-husband, who also had the same views as Matt but was also able to dress it up much better. He, too, ended up having a severe mental illness. Whaddyaknow. 🙁 He was so certain, so sure, that he was God’s man speaking God’s truth…but it ended up that he was very very ill.

    Matt’s views may not attract a large following, but they will still be plenty damaging to his wife, to his children, and to any other small group of people that he may be able to influence.

    “Learn it, woman.” Wow. Does that sound like something Jesus would say? Um…uh…no. And that thing about the sodomites. Ummm…For real? Jesus was walking around in a world full of male-on-male sex, and did Jesus ever say anything even close to something that?

    Sad. This guy is seriously messed up. We are talking a personality disorder, or something really awful in his childhood, or a certain learning disability that only allows him to think in stark blacks-and-whites, SOMEthing. Because healthy people simply do NOT think like that. Hopefully someone who cares about him can get him the kind of help he needs.

    Matt, if you are reading this, please go get some help. You are not well. Go get a psychological evaluation by someone who is of a high repute in the world of mental health. You owe it to yourself and to your wife. If you truly love her, if you truly love yourself, go get an evaluation and make sure everything is okay. Because, based on your words…it’s not. Something is very very wrong.

  • daisy

    Matt just reminded me why I’m so glad I got myself and my daughters (and sons) out of Christianity. What a vile, degrading view of women Matt has. What a ludicrous, puffed-up opinion of men. What a fool he sounds!

  • JTN

    *rolls eyes* I love how people use the lousy English translations of verses and then justify a poorly educated misogynistic worldview. Personally, I find Matt beneath me to even reply to in an educated way. I’d rather watch paint dry than attempt to communicate with a troglodyte who spout off Bible verses like sports statistics with the religious understanding and comprehension of a toddler.

  • Astonished

    “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;”

    Boy, wouldn’t it be nice if Matt and his ilk took that sentence literally and just crucified themselves! It’s people (and I use that term loosely) like him that turn me away from organized religion faster than the speed of light (not that he would know about that scientific theory!).

  • Flash Cat

    What a narrow minded dumbass!

  • Jane

    “Hate is a choice. I will hate the wicked and their deeds. Yes, hate. Furthermore, sodomites hate God, and infiltrate churches to spit in God’s face. You might say, “sodomites love each other, so what’s wrong with that”? I love my siblings, does that mean I have sexual relations with them?! I love men, as brothers. I love women, as sisters. But by God, there is only one person I take sexual pleasure in! Love is not sex. Learn it, woman.”

    Chuckle. You know how it is with these guys that hate those awful sodomites. Sooner or later they will be found in a bathroom at the airport with one of them.

  • Steven Knudsen

    Have some compassion on this fellow. His statement “I’m telling you, there’s a lot of weak vessels, silly women, out there, who ungodly men lie in wait for” is accurate if it is restated as
    “I’m telling you, there’s a lot of women, out there, who ungodly men lie in wait for.” I like “no longer quivering” but I think pain is keeping many of you from a balanced view that understands this motivation of patriarchy — to protect the women we love from unscrupulous men.

  • Meggie

    I do not understand this article.

    “A woman surrenders to a man so easily when he takes charge. That is the danger of having a matriarch with a man in subjection.” What does this mean? What is the danger of having a matriarch? Does Matt believe that men never abuse the power they have over their wives? Does he believe that husbands are perfect and that if things go wrong it is because the wives aren’t submitting?

    Matt, if you are reading this and you want me to listen to you, please make your arguments clear. I’m a post-graduate student in history/religious studies at one of the top universities in the country, so I like to think I am quite intellegent. If I fail to make sense of your arguments, I imagine many other people will as well.

  • Perrie

    @Steven Knudsen
    Did you also consider that women are perfectly capable of protecting ourselves from ‘unscrupulous men’? It’s men like Matt, who view us as weak, silly and in need of rescuing that keeps this patronising patriarchial spiel going and going and going.

  • Independent Thinker

    It means Matt hasn’t read his bible. It clearly says:

    To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. Corinthians 7:8

    If he would have dusted off his bible he might have seen a husband is not required. Being unmarried or widowed is to be like Jesus. I am surprised someone so engrossed in their “faith” missed that one.

  • Anise

    “A woman surrenders to a man so easily when he takes charge. That is the danger of having a matriarch with a man in subjection. The woman indeed is the weaker vessel, tossed to and fro, giving in to whims, and judges things according to her motherly instinct.”

    Matt, don’t you understand that this is you?

    First they took away our trust in emotions and intuition. They quoted Bible verses about the evilness of hearts. They promoted doctrines of emotional purity, teaching girls to fear crushes and emotions. They divorced the idea of love from feeling. And finally, they taught us not to trust women whom they depicted as emotional creatures not to be trusted (the same sentiment you are expressing).

    And then they took away our logic. We can no longer trust science, statistics, logical progression, and we should not apply such thinking to religious topics. The world is clearly made six thousand years ago, global climate change is not happening, and science as it says otherwise is not to be believed.

    What is then left to us? Teachers who interpret the Bible for us, tell us to rely on their books, newsletters, articles, and commercial products for truth. They are the ones who told us not to trust our emotions or our rationality.

    It is you, who relinquished your instinct and your logic for some impure form of holiness, who are tossed to and fro on waves made by evil or misguided teachers.
    You say that women rely on their emotions. If true, at least we have that.

  • flower

    It does sound like that. He probably beats, umm “spanks” her too.

  • flower

    He never addresses the idea of what a woman does who is not under the control of a husband or any other man, i.e. a single Christian woman. And what about the woman in Proverbs? According to this guy, no woman can make intelligent decisions, run a company, or even be the “Proverbial” wife who ran a business and made decisions for herself and her household all on her own

  • Steve K

    Capable, yes. Perfectly capable? No. No one is capable of that. Just check out the most recent John F. Kennedy scandal. Apparently, he wasn’t just good looking, rich and powerful. He was also intimidating, with Mob connections, and a murderer for a father.
    God help us. We all need protection.

  • Sara

    @Steve K. – Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure there are no ‘recent’ JFK scandals.

  • Steve K


    news just today at

    My apologies. Apparently it was semi-consensual. I actually am doing my day job instead of nosing into all this. Since I have daughters, I am very concerned how to teach them about the real world. I find nolongerquivering to provide a unique perspective.

    Note: I am extremely familiar with the homeschooling community, Michael Pearl and all that. Increasingly, I don’t fit into it (other than that we homeschool), and this site’s perspective has been enlightening. I grew up in a conservative Christian community that was very hierarchical and a little authoritarian. Together with my mathematics oriented brain, it got me in a lot of trouble. However, Christian “control practitioners” were not nearly as skillful then (35 years ago) as they are now. I actually got to read evidence for evolution and watch Cosmos on TV.

  • Eowyn

    Steven, there will always be men seeking to take advantage of women. Consider that some of those men are going to do that through patriarchal teachings. “Unscrupulous” includes them.

    You may think it’s loving and protecting to burden your wife and daughters with these teachings, but it’s not. I’m glad you are reading this site. I hope the common threads in all these stories will start to look like a pattern.

    Also, bringing up “pain” is a very common method to silence people who are speaking out. Imagine yourself making a valid argument to someone who had wronged you and hearing that back. Many of us took far too long to see the truth because we were trying so hard to excuse the wrong because of the “good motivation of patriarchy.” What child wants to think bad about a father?

  • flower

    That Kennedy had affairs, slept around… and this time with a young woman, really everyone knows that. It’s nothing new that older powerful men, and sometimes women, have taken advantage of those in vulnerable positions, often the very young. In this case, since there is no proof outside her word, it can’t really be known whether something that happened 50 years ago actually happened or not, though it wouldn’t suprise me. This book is a good way for its writer to make money now since the public’s desire for such stories is insatiable. Anyway, I certainly won’t bother reading it.

    How about focusing instead on the present and the sanctimonious behavior Newt Gingrich who thinks its just fine for himself to throw out the old models for a younger and healthier one? Callista better hope she never becomes very ill or old looking.

  • nowisee

    I think he left off the last part of his sentence, which should read, “….as long as she agrees with everything I say.” That goes right along with the rest of his circular logic.

  • nowisee

    That comment is made by someone who thinks sex is dirty and immoral unless it involves marriage. Why else do you think you have to protect women from it? Who is protecting men from their natural desires? Oh, I forgot, that’s why women have to cover themselves up, so you won’t be tempted.

  • Shakira

    What a sexist disgusting hypocrite!! He says women are “commanded” to be the subject of their husbands and at the same time only “asked” to be submissive IN THE SAME SENTENCE! NO MATT I don’t surrender to controlling men, men and women are equal and I demand to be treated as such…..NO telling me what to do, NO trying to change me, NO treating me like I’m incapable of doing/learning something that you can do and NO treating me like I’m just a helpless object in general. I know plenty of women who are men’s intellectual and physical equals, Matt you need to read The Frailty Myth and The Feminine Mystique and get over yourself. I, however, have a wonderful boyfriend who does treat me as an equal – just how I like it – and will teach me how to defend myself and to swim better so he doesn’t need to protect me.

  • flower

    Want to protect your daughters? Raise them to be strong women who know who they are and that they are worth as much as any boy, not more, just as much. Raise your sons and daughters with deep respect for each other. Then both the boys and girls will learn to make good decisions as they grow, and be able to protect themselves.

  • Sonneillon

    Thank you for the TW’s, and I just want to point out that this guy doesn’t know any of the women I know. For instance, we do not submit easily when a man takes charge. Leaders lead, no matter what their genital arrangement. Followers follow, as above. When we’re at the fifth level of an evil Lich’s dungeon or when we’re trying to decide on a car to purchase, my husband turns to me with full expectation that I’ll crunch the numbers, I’ll come up with the plan, and I’ll lead the charge.

    As for the implication that we are somehow defiled, fuck you very much, Matt. I am not an object, my worth to be determined by my prettiness or ‘purity’. I am a human being. I am not defiled. I am magnificent. And there is nothing you can do about it except whine and froth and gnash your teeth and complain about how the world was so much easier for a man back when women knew their place.

  • Jenny Islander

    When my husband has to be away, do I hang on the phone pleading for my brother-in-law to come and save me or pack up the kids and run off to stay with my brother, a plane ride away? No. I check all of the locks, make sure the kids are sleeping comfortably, then put a hammer and a cell phone within arm’s reach under the covers and go to sleep myself.

  • Steve K


    I am not trying to silence you. Thanks for commenting!

  • lisa b

    Why do we need to be protected?!? I can take care of myself, thank you very much! I may not be as physically strong as most men, but I’m probably smarter than the ‘unscrupulous’ ones. What do you mean by unscrupulous anyway? Horny? God forbid a horny man tries talking to me.

  • Ladies, do not date this man.
    Yeah, verily, he will picketh your entree from the menu for you.

  • Steve K


    don’t know if your comment was directed at mine, but just in case, here is a good article providing insight into relationship issues, on msn (!)!stackState=0__%2Frelationships%2Fso-this-is-love-1534563.story%3FpageId%3D4

  • “And why am I jealous? Because the woman is the weaker vessel, and evil men who have acknowledged this takes advantage, to defile you.”

    Matt. You really think that the answer to preying, evil men is to tell everyone that women are so weak they can’t possibly resist preying, evil men?

    And how about praying evil men? Jesus had strong words for the falsely religious leaders of his day. Praying and quoting the Bible will neither save you nor make you holy. Teaching women that if a man quotes scripture at them, he’s got their best interests at heart, means that you’re lying to them. Women should be able to understand and interpret scripture for themselves.

  • KH

    Really? Women are no more likely to be trapped, be preyed upon, or fall into cults than men. Matt’s speech has all the markings of a cult, and he’s been brainwashed too.

  • Iska

    Ugh. I know you’re joking, but:

    I do in fact think that BDSM can offer a way to act out potentially harmful tendencies in a healthy way – rules, negotiation, playful or game-like interaction instead of the rationalization of domineering / self-destructive behaviour as “natural” – but I highly doubt a person like Matt, in his current state, could practice anything BDSM-y like that. He’d be what every submissive/masochistic person fears, and what the BDSM scene tries hard to weed out, namely one of those who would use the structures provided by the same as means to be a sick fuck.

    Come to think of it, he’s already exactly that, only worse: Instead of being on the fringes of a community that has trained itself to recognize abuse and has a repertoire of tactics to intervene, he likely is close to the center of a quite different community which supports his rationalizations and likely turns a blind eye to any abuse towards those around him. If it does not outright support said abuse, due to its very structures.

  • Steve K

    It is almost assumed in religious groups that the person who quotes scripture the best is a godly person. So, your insight is interesting and perceptive. I’ll ponder it, and think twice before accepting Scripture-quoters at face value.

  • Michelle

    Thank you for a much-needed laugh! This is so serious that sometimes I have trouble letting go of being pissed off. I appreciate those who can display (and share) a sense of humor while not making light of the situation.

  • madame

    Exactly, Flower!

  • Michelle

    As critics of public schools often point out, rote memorization and learning are not the same thing…

  • Emma

    “And why am I jealous? Because the woman is the weaker vessel, and evil men who have acknowledged this takes advantage, to defile you.”

    Did he just write this really poorly, or did he actually intend to imply that gay men have a secret agenda to “defile” women?

  • LucrezaBorgia

    can someone unban me on the forum 🙁

  • denelian

    first off;
    Steve – you want to protect your daughters? the absolute BEST way to do that is teach them to protect THEMSELVES. not from silly “here’s how to not get raped” lists – those are havens of victim-blaming. the absolute truth about rape is that the ONLY way to not get raped is to never be alone with a rapist when zie wants to rape. and since people don’t have large neon signs above their heads that say “i am a rapist”… teach them, or have them taught, how to fight and defend themselves. [it may not stop the rape – but it WILL help save their sanity and self-respect. and it probably WILL stop the rape, since most rapists don’t want to fight for it] teach them various warning signs, with the caveat that not all rapists exibit them. not all rapists are male. teach them to watch their drinks [even, ESPECIALLY, non-alcoholic drinks. but any drink could have a date-rape drug dropped in] teach them to drink responsibly when they drink, to always have a sober friend around [not JUST for driving, but for making sure they don’t do something drunk that they don’t want to do – IF they get drunk. i’m 35, i’ve been drunk exactly 3 times, though i’ve drank more often than that. mostly, i drank like ONE drink then stopped] teach them to respect themselves, and that any person they date had BETTER respect them – if a boyfriend or girlfriend pressures them, that person does NOT respect them, and teach your daughters to respect themselves enough to INSIST anyone they date – and especially anyone they marry! – RESPECTS them, their thoughts and feelings and needs and wants; to respect their abilities and value their contributions.
    teach them to know that they are [or will become] competent and capable adults. that they have value as people, NOT just as “women”, because in this case “women” really means “walking talking baby-maker” and teach them that they are SO MUCH MORE than just their uteruses. that they are PEOPLE, that they should dress and act to please THEMSELVES because it is NOT their job, in ANY fashion, to “protect men and boys from being ‘defrauded'”
    because it IS NOT. at all. and if i were a man, the whole CONCEPT would piss me off – the notion that if see, GASP!, an ankle [or cleavage, or upper thigh, WHATEVER] i’ll have *NO CONTROL* and turn into a ravaging lust-monster that just *HAS* to rape the girl/woman who was so RUDE as to show X piece of flesh – it not only COMPLETELY devalues and dehumanizes women, it does the same to men. it’s wrong. it’s one of the ways Patriarchy Hurts Men Too.
    also teach them that it’s *OK* for them to feel sexual attraction, that that’s just a normal part of life, and the important part is WHAT THEY DO ABOUT IT. don’t hew so hard to the chastity line that your daughters get hurt – 97% of people in the US have sex before marriage. chastity [NOT “celibacy”. celibacy is when one vows to never get MARRIED. monks and nuns are celibate AND [theoretically] chaste. one can be chaste but not celibate, one can be celibate but not chaste. there are LOTS of Catholic priests who are celibate but not chaste, as an example.] until marriage is, maybe*, a nice concept, but it’s not a viable one for a thousand thousand reasons. let me give you an example – in the 17th century, the average age of marriage among the NON-nobility was 25, for a lot of good reasons. but once a couple were engaged, generally around 18-20, it was common AND ACCEPTED that they have sex [it was called “fensturing”] because there was a contract, and IF pregnanct occured [and they *DID* have fairly good birth control, with a fail rate of less than 10% for many of the methods] then they got married early. no biggie, as according to the betrothal contract, they WERE married, just not “set up”

    today, we generally delay marriage at LEAST as far. but sex is a big deal – and it’s good for us, so long as proper steps are taken. do i think 14 year olds should have sex? of course not – but 18 year olds, ADULTS, have every right to, IF THEY WANT. and entering marriage after spending your LIFE thinking, believing and ACTING as if sex is a HUGE sin does NOT a pleasant honeymoon make. i’ve helped [tried to, anyway] several people who have suffered because they KNOW sex is “sinful” but now, suddenly, magic words were spoken and it’s not only not a sin to have sex, but a sin to NOT have sex… trust me, it fucks people up.
    teach them that “sex is natural, sex is good” – so long as they take the right steps FOR THEM. if they aren’t ready for kids, well, that’s why God made birth control. [God DID make birth control – there are dozens, probably HUNDREDS, of herbs that are effective birth control, just NOT as safe and effective as the birth control you’d get from a doctor]

    as for “Matt” – he started off with a line about fornication and how he was going to “prove” it was a sin – and then NOT A SINGLE VERSE HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH FORNICATION.

    then he goes on… and on… and ON… about verses about how women are to “submit”. except… they’re taken out context. others have torn that whole thing apart better than i could, but i once again point out Mary and Martha, and how Jesus said it was BETTER to for her to sit and LEARN FROM JESUS than it was for her to “act like the proper woman”. Jesus was ALL about equality and feminism. it’s PAUL whose the misogynist, and he was a political jackass who was warring [with words, but still war] with the men who had ACTUALLY been disciples of Jesus, changing the message of what Christ actually said.

    THEN “Matt” DIRECTLY AND PRIDEFULLY says he “HATES” – an act that Jesus SPECIFICALLY SAID TO NOT DO. Jesus said “Love everyone, NO MATTER WHAT”
    he goes on and on about “Sodomites” – i wonder if he’s ever recieved a blow job? that is ALSO Sodomy, you know, and that would make HIM a “Sodomite”. he’s directly contraveining what CHRIST said.
    when Christ came, he tore the Veil, and so we no longer NEED an intermediary between us and God – now we have the Holy Spirit, that means NO ONE needs a “priest”, be it a minister or husband/father. we can ALL talk DIRECTLY to God now. also, the laws in the OT no longer applied, because the Veil is torn and Jesus was sacrified, so we don’t need to do those things anymore, because GRACE.

    gods, i’m not even Christian, but i know this stuff – and follow it better! – than all the people like “Matt”! i Love God/dess, Love Her chosen Avatars [Jesus, in this case], follow the REAL laws of “Love God and Christ” and “Love thy neighbor as you love yourself” and “DO NOT JUDGE, for all have sinned” because all sins are equal, and Matt’s PRIDE is EXACTLY as sinful as “Sodomy” [*IF* being gay is sinful – it ISN’T. it was part of the original 600+ Laws, yes – but these people pick and choose. if you don’t follow ALL of the laws, why follow ANY? why follow them ANYWAY, since they’ve been REPLACED by Christ and Grace?!?!]

    and truly, those 3 Laws are the ONLY ones that matter now. doesn’t ANYONE read what JESUS said anymore?

    *Chaste until marriage is, IMO, a BAD IDEA. as a joke, Heinlein once wrote “who’d want a virgin?” and there’s a LOT of truth to it. 2 virgins in a bed is a disaster in the making. so long as safe sex is the only sex you have, it’s a GOOD idea to know what the hell you’re doing in the marital bed. love isn’t something that you “lose” by loving a person; having had sex prior to marriage doesn’t mean that you’re “bad” or “dirty” or “used”. it means that you’ve had sex, period. all these cutsie little BS things, like duct-tape and flowers with petals pulled off and etc are UTTER BS. and note how all of this is essentially aimed ONLY at girls? if GUYS have sex, well, their parents MIGHT be mad [and their father’s secretly cheering] but it’s not an end-of-the-world issue. only WOMEN “lose” “honor” when they lose their virginity. men gain honor from sex, women lose it, and it’s STILL bullshit. after all, what makes a virgin? you have NO way of telling on a male, and little way of telling on a female, because hymens? they ATROPHY. there are *SO* many ways to “lose” a hymen – riding a bike or a horse, sports, heavy lifting, heavy CLEANING, and sheer TIME all spring to mind. if a woman of 20 still has a hymen, that’s a very UNUSUAL hymen and sex is going to hurt her a LOT and NOT just the first time. hell, like about 1% of the female populace, i was born WITHOUT a hymen.
    the whole virginity thing serves exactly 2 purposes. 1. it, IN THEORY, ensures a lack of STIs and 2. it, IN THEORY, ensures that a man isn’t raising another man’s child. in this day and age, NEITHER is applicable, if they EVER really were. many STIs can be transmitted WITHOUT sex [you can be BORN with many of them], and if you can’t trust the woman you’re marrying to NOT be pregnant with someone else’s child UNLESS she’s a virgin, you can’t EVER trust her to not get pregnant by someone else. in reality, the whole thing is about CONTROLLING women. about keeping us from being REAL people, keeping us on the level of property. and it’s both disgusting and FUCKING TERRIFYING that there is still a large minority of the US in the year 2012 who still believe this to be a good thing. let me tell you, if God didn’t want me to use my brain, She wouldn’t have given me a genius IQ – and NO, it wasn’t to ensure i had genius sons, since God ALSO gave me a genetic disease that will KILL ME if i attempt to have a child.
    if God didn’t want me to to be a PERSON, i’d be a tree or something. God gave me a brain, wits, common sense.
    and if God didn’t want us to have sex, we wouldn’t want to. we wouldn’t feel desire. if God didn’t want WOMEN to enjoy sex, we WOULDN’T. this overwhelming desire of Patriarch to control female sexuality had NOTHING to do with God and everything to do with those Patriarch having what i’ll call “issues”.
    check the century – we’re still fighting for the theoretical to be fully PRACTICAL, but in THIS century in THIS country [and MANY more] women are EQUAL and have the right to do whatever the hell they want [so long as they don’t hurt OTHERS] INCLUDING the right to have sex. with whomever they want, whenever they want [so long as all parties freely consent. children and animals cannot consent. other adults CAN]
    so if women WANT to have sex before marriage, that is their RIGHT. if they want to not have sex before marriage, that is ALSO their RIGHT. so long as it’s THEIR choice – that is NOT a choice ANYONE else can make for them. and i’ll fight for EVERYONE’S right to make THEIR OWN choices. a book written 4,000+ years ago by a nomadic tribe that was breathtakenly ignorant of science and rationality in general is NOT a blueprint for life in the year 2012 in the US. there’s a LOT of good in the Bible, both OT and NT, but it must ALL be read through the lens of knowing about the culture it was written BY, IN and FOR. what made sense in Egypt or Babylon or Rome thousands of years ago DOES NOT necessarily make sense today. and much of it is ONLY applicable in the time it was written.

  • minuteye

    Yeah, that was my thought. Circular logic much?

  • I am so sorry that you left christianity becaause of the mistakes and lies within some of the believers. People like this take grace and turn it into something you must earn and continue earning but will never measure up to unless you are just like them….BUT Gosd’s grace is free even though we never deserve it. And Jesus will never leave you. His burden is light and his yoke is easy. Not all these man made rules pretending to be God’s rules.

    Isn’t it interesting how God does things in Ones and rarely repeats Himself? Here are a few examples of the many One-Time-Only Wonders….There was only one Abraham who by faith believed God’s promise to make him a nation (and he had only one son from Sarah), only one Moses who led the Israelites out of Egypt and witnessed the one and only parting of the Red Sea, only one Noah who rode out the flood with all the animals on the one and only ark, just one David who using only one stone, brought down a giant. And one Mary who was visited by the one Holy Spirit to become mother of the one and only Jesus who proclaims that HE is the only One by whom salvation can be had. None of them attended any Gothard seminars and large home taught families was their only way of life because there was no birth-control. Nor were there cars nor electric lights back then but we use them now without feeling sinful. And God has made only one YOU and one ME…an incredible distinct personality found lost and wandering that He will paint and frame into one masterpiece! And that masterpiece will look like no other!

  • mecia577

    Google “Christian domestic discipline fiction”.

  • mecia577

    Yes, please don’t assume we women aren’t able to identify unscrupulous men and avoid them or deal with them appropriately. I’m actually really good at that. Your assumptions are pretty sexist. It’s good that you want to protect the people you care about but if you think you only have to protect the women… well… I can’t think of a kind word for that.

  • mecia577

    Nice dismissal.