Beauty: In the Eye of the Beholder

Beauty: In the Eye of the Beholder April 4, 2013

by Calulu

Recently I came across a very disturbing blog posting and another and another and another. It was from a blog that I’d quoted recently on No Longer Quivering for our Quoting Quiverfull feature. The post I used from that blog was one where the blogger’s husband tried to say it was alright for a Christian man to engage in polygamy if his wife didn’t stay attractive and slim.

What all those blogs and blog postings have in common is that they are all by Christians insisting that a man has a right to have a wife that fits his mental picture of who she should be, She should look like a hot porn star is the implication in a couple of pieces. If she’s not the hot goddess she was when you married her, then in these guys (and sadly, ladies too) minds then you should be able to either discard her, shame her into morphing into your fantasy girl or take another wife.

Fat shaming? Is that really a thing?

What? Isn’t Christianity all about the changes inside? Being the best you that you can be in your relationship with God. Changing from glory to glory for the glory of God. Being kind to others, helping others, loving God, loving people not being vainly concerned about your appearance all the time.

Many churches insist on modesty.  Modest appearances, not concentrating on the flesh? Modest dressing? Where is that in any of these blog postings? Nowhere, just prideful boasting of ‘shiny boobs’ and not cutting your hair because your husband will hate it and you will be far less attractive to everyone else. No mention of personal choice, just bounded choice to the petty tin-plated dictator of a husband who doesn’t line up at all with Paul’s description of what a husband should be.

I remember attending a women’s retreat many years ago and being struck by nearly every woman there that I spoke with at length feeling like they failed on appearance, that they weren’t beautiful. Many felt like they were never ‘good enough’ Which really blew my mind because I thought they all were beautiful, capable, devout sisters in the Lord, with no faults but their own uniqueness. If I could have I would have sung Pink’s “Perfect” to all of them (and all of you.)

(Video NSFW: Contains F word)

I still feel that way about them, even the ones that I don’t see any longer. Beauty is seen in so many forms and types. There is beauty even in the most unlovely looking things if you only look deeper. True inner beauty too, which, to my mind, is a million times more important than the vessel your spirit is riding around in. Someone can be oh so fair on the outside and have a nasty dark black soul. Appearance is no indicator as to what lurks inside someone.

Even the Bible has this to say about exterior beauty – Proverbs 31:30 – “Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting but a woman that fears the Lord is to be praised”

It’s just this type of heaping on of guilt and pressure over something Jesus never mentioned that really pisses me off the most about Christians and causes me to still believe in Jesus but not the church and certainly not the people.

The great irony of all this is the fact that by spouting these opinions the bloggers are actually buying into the ways of the world, like those crazy pageant moms and their teaching their kids that only outward appearance matters. Way to go, way to be like crazy Momma June from “Honey Boo Boo Child”

Plus, if the ladies have to be ‘perfect’ looking, why is there no outcry over men’s huge beer bellies, smelly pits, stubbly chins and other less attractive things that aren’t even as supposedly bad as being overweight? I see way more unattractive and ungroomed men running around than ladies. Make them shave and bathe!

You don’t see any of the ladies advocating polyandry because their husbands are fat. Ooops! That’s right, men are perfect in that world. That’s a heavy burden to carry.

Comments open below

Read everything by Calulu!

Calulu lives near Washington DC , was raised Catholic in South Louisiana before falling in with a bunch of fallen Catholics whom had formed their own part Fundamentalist, part Evangelical church. After fifteen uncomfortable years drinking that Koolaid she left nearly 6 years ago. Her blog is Calulu – Seeking The Light  and The Burqa Experience

The Spiritual Abuse Survivor Blogs Network

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  • Nefer

    This is a standard behavior of a controlling, abusive man with his own insecurities (fear of being left due to his own perceived inadequacies). Shame, belittle, criticize and denigrate a woman so that she has no confidence in herself. Especially zero in on whatever she might be proud of (curvy = fat, slim = scrawny). Convince her that she is darn lucky to have a man who is willing to put up with her many faults.

    The less confident she feels in her desirability as a woman (looks, intelligence, housekeeping, etc.), the less likely she is to leave. Who else would have her? How could she ever survive as stupid and incompetent as she is?

    A reasonably healthy man would just do his best to make his woman feel loved and cherished and special and beautiful.

  • Joi

    I ran across this video the other day, and it left me in tears: While my childhood churches were not nearly this bad, there were little whiffs of many of the same assumptions. Many of them were so subtle that I’ve only just realized they were there at all. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to make peace with my appearance, but at least I’ve made a start.

  • Nightshade

    I looooove that song.
    Hey, these guys just want to live by the Bible, right? Polygamy, women as possessions, it never ends, does it?

  • Ok- either those blog posts you quoted are jokes, or those are some messed up effing people. I have never, ever, seen the like, thank God. That those hideous ideologies are passed on to children is even worse. I’m glad that this isn’t indicative of the christian right, or any mainstream group.what creepiness!

  • Theo

    Actually, Honey Boo Boo’s family is the most interesting and probably the least dysfunctional I’ve seen of any pageant family in the public eye. Alana and her family generally seem to be very accepting and affirming of their own and each others’ appearance. (Not to say that the Pageant Industrial Complex itself isn’t destructive; Alana certainly does her fair share of tantrum-throwing when she isn’t crowned. But she seems MUCH more comfortable with herself than the other contestants, or many young girls outside the pageant arena.)

  • The_L

    I’m repulsed by this use of the words “market value.” I don’t HAVE a “market value,” because I am not goods in a store window. I am a human being.

    But the worst part was reading some of the comments praising the authors of these abhorrent posts for their “kind words.” How in the world is a threat “kind?” What planet do these people live on?

  • Shiny boobs is one of my most popular posts! It’s interesting how many people search for those key words and come to my blog. I hope they aren’t disappointed when they learn I’m just referencing wearing tight shirts with bling on them around my husband. And I do. I like turning him on. I love having sex with him. I don’t think you really find that disturbing, do you? The sex, along with having lost the extra weight has been so fantastic for my overall disposition. My moods are so much more positive now. I’m truly the happiest I’ve ever been in all our ~18 years of marriage. True inner beauty is the most important thing. My go to source for a makeover is, of course, the Bible and prayer. It confuses me why women, with all the stresses we already have in life, seek out blogs in order to voluntarily read things that disturb, upset or offend them.

    It’s funny my husband talks about biblical polygamy. When we were going through the most challenging time in our marriage and I was considering divorce, it really affected me to know that he would not be alone long. He is a very attractive man who has women sending indicators of interest around him all the time. I couldn’t stand the idea of other women being close with my children. It certainly wasn’t the only thing that made me pursue a healed marriage instead of a divorce but it did weigh in.

    why is there no outcry over men’s huge beer bellies, smelly pits, stubbly chins and other less attractive things
    On my blog, I do not give advice to men. My husband does occasionally. The other blogs you linked, Alpha Game and Chateau Hartiste and the other blogs I link on my site regularly have posts about men maintaining their appearance. That is a huge part of what those authors are advising men.

  • I forgot to add, I absolutely love that Pink song. We have all of her music. I am so thankful that my daughters have managed to steer clear of the drama and peer pressure of teenage girl life. They see it all the time and are often sad for their friends who struggle with it.

  • I had really, really hoped all that was a joke of some sort. I won’t argue with you here, because we disagree on so many basic, basic premises, like authority/submission, the nature of woman, gender essentialism, etc. I cannot tell you how sad I am to find that you are a real person, and that you really believe this tripe.

    Please don’t ever think that a great sex life is limited to those who hold the draconian views you’re espousing. As a feminist, I too love sex and love turning my husband on. Those egalitarian pleasure parties are really, really great stuff. Thing is- it’s all totally, completely mutual. Because we do not believe in different roles or “natures” for men and women, we are equals. It is a beautiful, fulfilling thing.

    The wonderful thing about an egalitarian marriage is that I do not have to belittle or “feminize” my husband to be his equal. I do enjoy his strength, but he enjoys mine. I love his affection and his input, but he must always know that touching me against my will will never be tolerated, and that making decisions without consulting me is as disrespectful to me as it would be were I to do that to him.

    Are you a Christian? If you are, then I beg you to read every account of Christ interacting with a woman and then I challenge you to tell me, with a straight face, how you think He could EVER condone the condemnation you are spewing. News flash, dear- men are not more visual than women. As women, we do not exist to please our husbands. This also applies to our appearance. To say otherwise is dehumanizing. And healthy men prefer an equal partner to a yes-man. You have my most profound sympathies.

  • “Fat shaming” is a term originally coined by people who oppose the discrimination fat people face in our society to label the negative ways in which people who are fat are treated.

    One of the things I found interesting about the first post is the quote from the person named Roissy:

    “Shaming works. If it worked on smokers and “””racists”””, it will work on fatties.”

    The word racists is not just in quotes, it is in double quotes, while of course “smokers” and “fatties” are not. I got the impression that Roissy does not think “racists” is a real category, unlike the other two.

    And of course, the point missed is that smoking, and making racists statements, are both behavior. You can put out a cigarette in a second. You can shut up and not make racist statements, although, alas, you can still keep your racist beliefs to parade in subtle ways (“”racists””). Being fat is not behavior, any more than being short is. It is linked to behavior, but not in as direct a way as these posts suggest. The same eating behavior in two different people can lead to different results.

  • Mary,
    I’m sure no one wants us to argue our differences here. I detail thoroughly my testimony and personal relationship with Jesus Christ on my blog. You’re right, a great sex life is not, by any means, exclusive to marriages like mine. We had a fabulous sex life before and after my obedience to biblical submission.

    but he must always know that touching me against my will will never be tolerated, and that making decisions without consulting me is as disrespectful to me

    Is your husband prone to this kind of behavior? How do you make these things clear to him? I mean, how do you ensure he never does these things?

  • Melissa

    My husband wants to know if the wives get to bring a new husband in when the original’s, um, equipment isn’t up to putting more babies in them.

  • No, of course my husband would never do those things. I married an intelligent, enlightened man, not a cave troll. I was referring to statements on your blog about men being advised to make decisions without their wives’ approval and one statement about a man coming up and catching you around the waist, pulling you in with his strength- which is great if you want it, but that, too, needs the woman’s approval.

  • Persephone

    Sarah’s Daughter, that post is horrifying. It sounds like Peter Griffin on “Family Guy:”

    If a woman is fat it may be because of gluttony, but there may well be other reasons. If she’s an emotional eater then obviously she’s unhappy and/or stressed about something.

    I put on some weight after multiple accidents that caused permanent damage to my back. But I didn’t really put on weight until my second husband (my first husband left me a young widow) became abusive. That’s when I really gained weight. I struggled to lose weight because he would complain about it, never mind that he had put on even more than me, but I was miserable and exhausted all the time from dealing with his abuse and I found myself eating for the energy jolt.

    Fat shaming does not work. And even more interestingly, a recent study showed that men are the ones who don’t know they’re fat. Women were more likely to think they were fat when they weren’t, while men believed themselves to be either of normal weight or slim when they were overweight. Obviously, men’s supposed visual orientation doesn’t apply to themselves.

  • Your statement was that your husband “must always know.” Well, how does he know? Does he get your approval on every decision he makes? Probably not, huh? Well, then how is the line drawn? Which decisions require your approval and which ones can he discern on his own? And, what are the consequences should the line get blurred?

  • Of course there are a myriad of reasons why a woman gains weight. Indeed fat shaming does work, it worked for me. It was not from my husband but from a blog I voluntarily read. My husband never said a thing about it. The women who read my blog are there for a specific reason and are well aware what they’ll be reading. Those who are uncomfortable reading it do have the ability to…not read it. Attempting to discover an underlying emotional reason why I was overweight would not have worked. I have no underlying emotional challenges. I was overweight because of gluttony. Because of overindulgence of food and laziness. The perfect candidate to be awakened to the truth of what my husband might be finding repulsive. I didn’t even ask him. I just assumed it and got to work. I’d heard all of the health factor truths but they didn’t motivate me. The blog I read did motivate me. The blogs I still voluntarily read continue to motivate me.

  • Persephone

    I love looking at nice things, specifically men with long hair, who wear kilts. Maybe it’s all my Celt blood, but a man comfortable in a kilt, especially a man with beautiful hair, yummo! The most beautiful thing in the movie ‘Troy,” to me, was Eric Bana and that amazing hair; he made Brad Pitt look bad.

    I’m loving the show “Vikings” and one of the reasons is that the men adorn themselves. Men used to dress up, but Beau Brummel changed that about 200 years ago, so it’s a very recent change.

  • Sandy

    Sarah’s Daughter, Why would any decent person, let alone a Christian woman, take any advice from sinful heathen pickup artist like Roissy whose main purpose is advicing men on lying and seducing women and then throwing them away to go to the next target. You obviously support such behavior by linking to his blog. Why would a so-called Christian like you support this?

  • It’s quite simple, I do not require every source of information I receive to be Christian. I learn from non Christians all the time. I’m quite the fan of Socrates as well (not comparing Roissy to Socrates in any sense other than they’re non Christian – Socrates for obvious reasons). I have a discerning mental capacity to sift through the posts of his I don’t prefer and read those I do. I trust my readership to be of a sufficient intelligence to do the same.

  • I’m glad you’re curious about how egalitarian marriage works. Two ladies, Jonalyn Fincher and Kristen Rosser, have written some excellent blog posts about the subject, more eloquently and succinctly than I could. I would encourage you to google their blogs, Ruby Slippers and Wordgazer’s Words.

  • I thought I smelled good, old-fashioned hellenic woman-hating in there somewhere! 🙂 Sarah’s Daughter, some posts both on your blog and the top two you have linked are in danger of making Plato look like Gloria Steinem by comparison.

  • Sandy

    Sarah’s Daughter, I am a Christian also, Reformed, to be exact. I have read Roissy’s blog a few times over the years and find it appalling and vulgar and leading men down the path of destruction. Yes, you can glean truths from secular material. Paul alluded to secular material at least a couple of times in his epistles. However, finding truth in Roissy’s blog is like searching for a speck of gold through a massive pile of shit.

  • Leading men down the path of destruction? Interesting. Do you have any evidence of this? That would be quite interesting to read, a man’s personal testimony of how voluntarily reading a blog caused this destruction in his life.

    I have no need to defend Roissy and his writing, he is plenty capable of that on his own. Certainly you’ve expressed your concerns on his blog?

  • Logic = Misogyny? No, no…logic/reason -> logos -> the Word = Jesus Christ “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” – John 1:1

  • BabyRaptor

    And….That’s where you lost me. I was willing to give you a good faith chance, despite everything you’re saying being completely Not Jesus-like, until you went and said that.

    The fact that you choose to call something logic doesn’t make it not sexist. The bible has a lot of misogyny in it. To deny that is to deny that you’re even reading the book.

    Further, your little arrow train there is…Well, complete bullshit. First, “logos” does not mean Jesus. Or logic. It means “I say,” and is usually translated as “word.” There’s a Christian doctrine that calls Jesus “The Logos,” but that’s far from the only use of the word, and not even one of the main ones. And it has nothing to do with logic. It, like the verse you quoted, is used as support for the Trinity.

    The bible isn’t the only source for logic…In fact, it’s pretty self-contradictory, so one could say that it’s not very logical at all. And Christians don’t have a monopoly on logic. Or reason for that matter, though I don’t understand why you felt the need to toss reason in there. There are plenty of sources for those two things outside the Bible.

    I’m not even sure where you got your response from, but it’s a complete wash.

  • Retha

    “Shaming works. If it worked on smokers and “””racists”””, it will work on fatties.”
    This is slightly off-topic, but I really believe we need a worldwide movement of pick up artist shaming. Damn wolves. Liarsm

  • Nea

    Sarah’s Daughter, there is a world of difference between linking to someone who you occasionally disagree with and linking to someone who constantly advises sinful, abusive behavior. Denigrating the intelligence of those who think that the former is normal and the latter is appalling does not erase the fact that you are defending and endorsing this man’s attitude and spreading his message.

  • Sandy

    Sarah’s Daughter, explain to me how being a pickup artist and being the pickupee is following the path of Christ? I find your responses flippent, childish, and disrespectful. Reading Roissy’s hlog is not sinful, practicing what it preaches is.

  • Sandy

    Sarah’s Daughter, explain to me how being a pickup artist and being the pickupee is following the path of Christ? I find your responses flippent, childish, and disrespectful. Reading Roissy’s blog is not sinful, practicing what he preaches is.

  • Logic does not equal misogyny. Greek thought, hellenic writing in general, etc is not exactly pure logic. That’s like saying Hindu thought, writings, history, etc are all about reincarnation, and to critique them is to critique reincarnation. It is ironic, the amount of bad logic that accompanies your defense of logic. I’m a fan of logic, myself. I’m not a fan of many aspects of hellenistic philosophy, including the views on women, nor am I a fan of those damaging lies infiltrating christianity, though thankfully I do not often see it to this extreme.

  • Sandy

    Sarah’s Daughter or should I call ypu Spacebunny, or by your real name, Heather. It has been awhile since I have posted on your husband’s blog. It explains the presence of Roissy on your blog, why you were “shamed” into slimming down by your husband, and your braggadocio responses. If you are not her, you are a close facsimile.

  • No, I am not Spacebunny. But I am quite fond of her.
    No one I have talked about including me was shamed to slim down from their husbands. Certainly not Spacebunny, she’s always maintained a very fit and trim figure. She’s a great encourager too.

  • She does sound like Spacebunny. But the wording of the poligamy post don’t sound like Vox. And to be honest, Spacebunny is not the only women in patriarchy in whose words on blogs I’ve seen a cold, hard battle axe.

  • She does sound like Spacebunny. But the word choice of the poligamy post don’t sound like Vox. And to be honest, Spacebunny is not the only women in patriarchy in whose words on blogs I’ve seen a cold, hard battle axe.

  • Sandy, the thought that women as cold, heartless and smart-but-willing-to-ignore-facts that don’t suit them, as Spacebunny is, are actually home schooling mothers have kept me up at least once in the past. The poor children.

    And a father like Vox, self-admitted rapist, makes it even worse.

  • Spacebunny

    Sure thing Sandy dear, if someone isn’t fat, but fit – they must have been shamed into it, right. Logic really isn’t your strong suit. Although given the practically hysterical reaction to very idea of fat shaming around here, I would say that it does, in fact, work. And to claim that shaming of any kind, be it fat shaming, slut shaming, etc. doesn’t work does nothing more than demonstrate your historical ignorance. Oh, and for a bunch a people concerned about “shaming” practically every comment is full of shaming language directed at a fellow christian no less. Mote, plank, eye…..laughter.

  • kept me up = kept me awake, kept me from sleeping with worry

  • I must have missed that and I’ve been reading his work for years. Where has Vox admitted to being a rapist exactly?

  • Did Sandy ever mention fat shaming in one of her responses here? If not, how come you blame her for it?

  • Spacebunny

    Which facts am I willing to ignore Retha, and please do be specific.

  • If the definition of rape is stretched so far to include women who have not given consent, then I am absolutely a serial rapist. So, too, is every man I know.

    Here I comment on it:

    But since Spacebunny is participating here, that comment may soon be changed when she warns him.

  • Spacebunny

    Um, I’m sorry Retha, but did you actually, you know, read her comment?

  • I’ll be honest and say I forgot. I’ve read Vox’s blog years ago, and don’t plan to be digging there again for your comments. It is a view I got at the time, and just a vague memory now.

  • My answer to you is in moderation, as it contains two links.

  • Spacebunny

    Right – don’t worry dear, I’d already determined that you were full of crap. You’re not being honest by saying you forgot, you’re being extremely dishonest to make such a comment in the first place – emotional rhetoric and nothing more. I bet you “forgot” where Vox admitted to raping someone too.

  • “practically every comment is full of shaming language directed at a fellow christian no less”

    As I understand it, fellow Christians (or call-themselves-Christians) are the one group that should be shamed and avoided by Christians (seeming as in “you are not one of us”) if they do not behave like Christians. I get that from, for example, 1Co 5:9-13.

  • I did mention it, but right now my comment is in moderation. When the moderators release it, you will see it.

  • Spacebunny

    Yeah, except that no one has actually demonstrated how (aside from cherry picking a few verses) Sarah’s Daughter is not behaving like a Christian. And if you’re going to use 1 Cor. 5:9-13, you’re going to have to demonstrate how Sarah’s Daughter, who is happily married and by all accounts faithful to her husband, is any of the things listed therein. Although considering what has been slung in her (and my) direction – you, particularly would do well to pay particular attention to word slanderer.

  • Why is it that its ok to shame someone into quitting cigarettes…. because its bad for your health… but its not ok to shame someone into losing weight because its bad for your health?

    Given that we do not have a free market healthcare system… fat people drive my insurance and healthcare costs up.

    So put down the bon bon and get on the tread mill fatty.

  • I agree with you that Sarah’s daughter did not break the rules in that passage. Nobody said she did. I pointed out – by way of your words “shaming a fellow Christian no less” – to any believer who may think it more wrong to shame Christians – that it is not more wrong.
    (And this is not a blog with only believers, so she is not a “fellow” Christian to everyone.)

  • Josh

    Anyone arguing that a wife shouldn’t look good to her husband clearly needs to read Song of Solomon.

  • Persephone

    Shaming doesn’t usually work for smokers. Smoking is an addiction, and I give it more leeway in that I understand the addiction part of it. Starting smoking, when knowing of the inherent dangers, is often made during childhood, under peer pressure, or in reaction to stressors. For a few, smoking is a habit. Putting out that last cigarette and walking away requires more than a decision to not indulge again for most smokers.

    Eating is required to sustain life. Smoking is not. Smoking causes more illnesses than obesity. Yo-yo dieting causes more illnesses than obesity. Alcohol consumption causes more illnesses than obesity.

    Actually, we do have a free market healthcare system, and fat people are free to buy their insurance at the same place you are. This is why healthcare in the U.S. is so expensive, and yet has no better results than nationalized healthcare.

  • Persephone

    And so should the man. But looking good is in the eye of the beholder, and the person who truly loves another sees that person differently.

  • Nightshade

    I’m not a Christian, so I’m not playing by ‘biblical’ rules, but I looked up this Roissy and his blog, and I’m appalled (a word I very, verrrry rarely use) by his attitude towards women. Just look at the topics listed at the top of his page…The Sixteen Commandments of Poon? Dating Market Values tests? Really??! And that’s the merest tip of the iceberg. Why would any woman think his opinion is of any value whatsoever? Unless we’re supposed to try and understand the kind of man he describes as an ‘Alpha’ instead of steering as far clear as possible?

  • Mary C

    You say the fat shaming was not from your husband, but in your blog you say this:

    “Also, since I have been on the journey of ridding excess fat and repenting of my sinful gluttony, I have started to hear what RLB is saying when he speaks of his repulsion to obesity and excess fat. It is not shallow or merely judgement. Fat literally repulses him in a physiological manner. Couple a fat woman with being a feminist and he responds as though he is looking into the eyes of Satan.”

    The attitude you describe coming from your husband is a perfect example of fat shaming.

    There is a coldness that just jumps off the page in your writing. I don’t know you at all, but that coldness made me sad for you when I was reading your blog. I hope that one day you can find and recognize true love and acceptance in a life partner.

  • Rae

    This is what I was going to say – as much as Honey Boo Boo might get all dolled up for pageants, I kind of like her reality show, because her family seems to be perfectly happy with their bodies which would be conventionally considered unattractive. I remember the episode when the 17-year-old had her baby, and when she was asked about her advice to anyone else considering having a child at 17, she said “It’s your body, do what you want.”

    So while the pageant life is very negative for many girls and young women, there are others who can participate in it and perserve their self-image because they’ve got a healthy self-image and to them the makeup and glitter and heels are just a fun hobby, not a way to make themselves “prettier.” (I speak as someone who was a competitive dancer once, which as I became a young adult entailed wearing more makeup, more glitter, and less clothes than Ke$ha some days – but when we got dressed up, we were doing it because we were performers/athletes, not because we thought it looked pretty)

  • Spacebunny

    Why would he change it? The fact that you cannot read for comprehension has been well demonstrated in not only this comment section with regards to your questions/assertion in my direction, but in the comment thread to your own post linked above. Your comments are literally nonsensical to any thinking person.

  • Spacebunny

    Your rhetoric is pathetic and your dialectic is non existent. You were literally walked through why your assertions were erroneous and immediately attempted to change it from “he’s a rapist!!!” to sputtering about how he doesn’t support rape victims and is demeaning to them, blah, blah, blah. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so sad.

  • LL

    I will admit I don’t read Sarah’s Daughter’s blog or this one but I was directed here and I want to ask a question. The post title is “Beauty: In the Eye of the Beholder” and the most recent comment repeats that assertion. So say a man finds a woman beautiful. Both on the inside and the outside. And he commits to marry her until the end of days, because she is perfect for him (and vice versa. She would not date nor commit in marriage to him if he were not pleasing to the eye to her also). And time passes, she becomes very fat. He’s not perfect either, but say that he has put on significantly less weight than her. I see this often out in public, a significantly overweight/obese woman and a fairly trim man together, with their children or whatever.

    My question is, has she deceived her husband? If she was svelte, took time to make herself attractive (nice makeup and clothes, taking time to fix her hair), maintained a tidy apartment, etc, all while they were dating, and now, she does not even attempt it any longer, is that deception? Does she not have some sort of commitment to him to make herself as sexually attractive now that she’s his wife, as she did when she was dating him, before they were married? Beauty was in the eye of the beholder enough to commit to marriage, but does the person who has been looked upon have any sort of obligation to not do a 180 and become slovenly and obese?

    We all age. We have children and garner stretch marks. Our breasts sag a little. There are some things that are inevitable with time. But putting on 40 or 50 pounds, having rolls of fat sufficient that wearing jeans is all but impossible, that is breaking the marriage covenant in my eyes. You have drawn a man’s eye to you before your marriage, you have fallen in love with each other in that moment, and no, you cannot preserve a moment forever, and as I said, time marches on, but you should at least attempt to maintain the best equivalent that you can. Getting grossly fat and expecting your husband to desire you is ridiculous. And sex is part of a marriage. It is part of the expectations between partners, whether it is infrequently or often, most of that is sorted out early on, not 10 years down the road. It is bait and switch to claim otherwise.

  • Helena

    I see one of those entries linked to above repeat an old idea of the blogger: most women overrate themselves by at least two points* because they rate themselves by their hottest-ever hookup rather than by the average of their past romantic record.
    I have never spoken to any woman who rated themselves by the hotness of their hook-ups.
    Most women seem to rate themselves by their values, the quality of their relationships (with partners, friends, co-workers, family), by how much they help others, and by how well their children turn out. The shallowest of young women seem to rate themselves by how large of a percentage of their lives they can be in a relationship. At the most disfunctional side, there are even women who judge their value by how long they can stay loyal to an abusive partner.
    I have never spoken to one woman of whom I had the impression that she rates herself by her hottest hook-up, who would brag about her night she was the groupie chosen by the locally famous singer. If Vox has that impression of women, where did he go to meet women? Seedy bars? Brothels?
    Plus, it is his contention elsewhere that feminism is all too rampant among women. Feminism as a movement often say women should not find their value in men, and I believe at least some of it’s members actually live by that idea. They won’t find their value in the hotness of their hook-ups either.
    So, regulars on this blog: About how large a percentage of women, by your estimate, measure themselves by the hotness of their hottest hook-up?
    *”overrate themselves by at least two points” – He rates women on a system of 1-10 based on how they fare as objects of desirablility for men. That used to be – and may still be – his main way of valuing women. I know God will not measure me that way one day.

  • You may prefer to read it that way. But no evidence were given that the assertion was erronous. I know you – like most Vox Day fans – will pull the “reading comprehension” one on me. But any rational reader of that sentence -and blog post – can make up his own mind.
    I did not give up on the assertion that Vox called himself a rapist. I answered the further assertions that the reader made, the one who talked of how calling some consensual things rape are demeaning to actual rape victims.
    He tried to use that as the way I need to read Vox’s comments. It was not a logical answer at all:
    Firstly, the Vox comment was about women who did not consent. Anyone with half a brain would know that when this commenter (who allegedly walked me through why my assumptions are errounous) speak of consent having to be written or verbal, “consent under duress” and “drunk girls [consenting]” is not relevant to how the Vox quote could be understood – Vox spoke of “women who have NOT consented.

    I believed my readers are astute enough to see the irrelevance; but then started a discussion on a second topic (1st was Vox rapist, 2nd Vox’s attitude towards rape) to help this commenter get closer to the point where he can actually believe this bad thing about Vox.

  • “Spacebunny” You’ve been warned. Stop the personal attacks. Everyone else calling each other names needs to knock it off too.

  • Spacebunny

    It’s not about “preferring” to read it that way. Words have meaning, dear. There was plenty of evidence given that the assertion was and is erroneous. That you are demonstrably too stupid to understand it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    But any rational reader of that sentence -and blog post – can make up his own mind.

    Which pretty much leaves you out of the running.

    Firstly, the Vox comment was about women who did not consent.

    Context is everything, dear. In what context was he talking about women who did not consent and what specific type of consent was he talking about? If you cannot answer these questions then you have no idea of what the context for his comment is and cannot, therefore put forth a reasonable opinion about what he meant by it. Here’s a hint – the reason he walked you through it was because you clearly did not understand it, and still don’t. That is the context of the comment. If you read his blog regularly and read the many posts about rape and date rape, you would have understood that without having to be led by the nose to it. Of course, you are very clearly much more interested in hysterical hand wringing than anything remotely resembling intellectual honesty. Again – pathetic.

  • Spacebunny

    Interesting – I was called several names, none of the flattering, although battle-axe was my personal favorite – before I had ever even commented here once, but I’m the one personally attacking people? Right.

  • Let’s not all be mad at each other. How about if we take a breath and sing and dance along with Jimmy Soul?

  • I notice that you never countered by explaining he was actually saying about non-consensual women.
    I disagree with you about the amount of responsibility that I have to read his entire oevre. He -and you – would certainly take anything said by your opposition in the worst possible light, without reading the opposition’s entire oevre.
    He speaks of “including women who have not given consent” and that making him a serial rapist, and nothing in the article, or any articles linked to from that one, defines consent in such a way that I have to understand it differently. I already gave him the opportunity to explain years ago and he failed to do so. It is entirely just, unless someone tells me what he did mean, to take his comment on face value. In fact, I read many of his posts about rape, and about women in general, and some of those certainly gave me the impression that he is exactly the kind of man that do not respect a woman’s autonomy.
    Yes, you will want to insult me further for saying what I just did. Honestly, I don’t care. Insults, or twisting my words, are not evidence that I am wrong.

  • If that claim was true, a prostitute who once serviced a rather attractive man in a Mercedes will have a better self image than a married woman, married to the none-too-attractive, just-getting-by-financially man who was her only sex partner.
    And the unhappily married woman will have a better self image than the virgin.
    Molested girls will have a better self image than unmolested ones, etc.

  • Spacebunny

    First of all, I never claimed that you have any sort of responsibility to do anything. If you want to be held in low regard, that is absolutely up to you, but anyone who has actually followed the conversations on the topic will know without a doubt that you are ill informed and in this case, it would appear that you are intentionally so. Either that or you are being intentionally dishonest in your representation of what the meaning actually is, neither position reflects particularly well on you.

    nothing in the article, or any articles linked to from that one, defines consent in such a way that I have to understand it differently.
    This only demonstrates my earlier point about you not actually reading the blog itself and that you hadn’t followed the ongoing conversation regarding the topic – anyone who actually had would not continue to take such a ridiculous stance (unless you were attempting satire, but I highly doubt that is the case here).
    It is entirely just, unless someone tells me what he did mean, to take his comment on face value.
    This is just laughable. Are you a Christian? Have you read the Bible? Or for heaven’s sake any other literature? The Bible is full of metaphors, allegory and similies- do you need the author of everything you read to explain everything to you?

    He -and you – would certainly take anything said by your opposition in the worst possible light, without reading the opposition’s entire oevre.
    More naked assertions designed to cast aspersions on your “opponent”, as opposed to actual facts – nothing new here. Do you have any actual evidence of this taking place? If so please do share, because the opposite is actually true.
    Insults, or twisting my words, are not evidence that I am wrong.
    No one is twisting your words, dear. Although it is a fairly common practice to project when caught out. I have quoted you directly, in the correct context – the only one attempting to twist words is you with regards to Vox – you were caught out, called on it and didn’t like it. As to the insults – you dear, not me, were the one who started with the insults. I am merely addressing you in the manner you chose- you thought it was safe to insult someone because they weren’t likely to respond – perhaps you have learned a lesson. Doubtful, but one can hope.

  • madame

    I’ve seen fat men walking down the street with fit women. I don’t know their story, so I don’t judge. I expect you would agree with me, that if a woman is expected to keep herself attractive for her man, the man should keep himself attractive for his woman, right? I hope we at least agree on that point.

    I don’t think that gaining weight is breaking the marriage covenant. If I ate a whole 12 oz. bag of chocolate covered peanuts every evening and told my husband that I was snacking on apples, then I would be deceiving him, but putting on weight is not deceiving anyone.

    As someone who has been married for 10 years, I’ll tell you, we are still sorting things out. I suspect we’ll be sorting things out and adapting to life’s changes for the rest of our lives. A man who expects his sex every day, or every other day, and can’t fathom that his wife’s priorities may shift due to pregnancy, having children, fatigue, or whatever, should rather buy himself a doll and steer clear from real flesh and bone women.

  • madame

    I don’t know what woman would want to be with a man who “rates” women by the men they’ve slept with. What a sick man!

  • Helena

    Madame, I think you read a bit quickly, perhaps?
    He rates women by desirability, not by who they sleep with. He say women rate themselves by who they sleep with: If their best one-night stand was a 7 in desirability, they rate themselves a seven.

  • madame

    You’re right. I read too quickly. I understand it now. The man rates the woman by how desirable he finds her, the woman rates herself by how desirable she finds the men she has slept with. Quite a sick system, and I still wonder what woman would want to be with, or pay any attention to, a man who thinks she “overrates her desirability”.

  • thalwen

    Your premise only works if you see marriage not as a contract between two people but as a purchase contract. The man’s “eye” is caught by an attractive object, so he buys it, only to bring it home and find that it’s broken, or maybe it’s used goods, or it’s just not what he wants displayed in his home, so he has a full right to return it as defective merchandise.
    A woman is not a thing. A woman is a person just like a man is a person. I know that sounds elementary but given your thinking in your post I think I should inform you of this. A woman has her own desires and her own priorities and has a right to them. Yes, sex is a part of marriage but marriage is not a contract for sex.Nor do most people get married only for sex.
    I don’t think it’s wrong to divorce someone you no longer want to stay married to for whatever reason. But appearances are not the only thing that breaks marriages. I know I would be much more repulsed by my partner seeing me as a thing for their use and benefit than them gaining 40 pounds. Besides, don’t marriage vows say “for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health” not “for as long as my erection lasts.”
    And yes, women gain weight during pregnancy, a lot don’t get back to their pre-pregnancy weight. Some develop complications. That “fat and lazy” woman might have post-partum depression, or she just might not have time for her daily workout juggling caring for a young child. That said, most couples I see tend to be of a similar weight, due to eating together and having similar lifestyles which I suspect, has more to do with them being happy together than their appearances.

  • thalwen

    Why is it ok to shame anyone?
    Shaming might work on a few people but over all it is largely an ineffective tool for change and an effective one for bullying.
    Why are smoking rates down? Because we’ve shamed smokers? Nope. We’ve raised cigarette taxes, made the risks of smoking very explicit, and stopped making smoking glamorous in the media.
    Smoking bans aren’t there to shame smokers but to protect everyone else from secondhand smoke. And yet, any attempts to do the same with unhealthy food are met with extreme resistance and cries that the gubment is going to force broccoli down our throats.

  • madame

    LOL, Thalwen!
    I agree. Smoking bans have nothing to do with shaming smokers. I’m glad the days of sitting in a crowded plane with little children breathing in second hand smoke in the “non-smoking area” are over.

    I read about the tax on soft drinks and the outcry against it. The problem starts a lot further back. Sugar is in EVERYTHING. The information on what is healthy and not healthy is confusing, to say the least. Just eat less and exercise more doesn’t work for everyone because we aren’t all made the same, and some people are going to have to put sugar aside for good, even make sure all the food they eat contains no sugar at all. It’s not easy. Shaming is not the solution.

  • That attitude is quite common. And, what is often the case is wives are unaware of their husbands being turned off or repulsed by excess fat. They are silent about it to their wives because they don’t know how to address it with her – knowing she doesn’t separate her emotions or self esteem from other’s (and her own) opinion of her appearance. In most cases, one of the hundreds of ways to shed excess weight will indeed work for a woman. But, like my husband, most men stay silent but are concerned. They’re concerned for their wives health, her self image, attractiveness, etc. I have proven to my own self that when I exercise and focus on nutrition that promotes health and fat loss, I have a better self image. When I separate emotion from the issue, I can take personal responsibility for the issue.
    What my husband finds visually appealing is not an emotional issue for me any longer – because in taking personal responsibility of my life, I have learned that it doesn’t make any sense for my self worth to be gauged by someone else’s opinion. What is implied by you saying his opinion of obesity should or does affect my feeling his love or acceptance. Not liking the bumpy appearance of cellulite on my butt does not, in anyway translate into his not loving or accepting me. Quite the opposite actually. I heard, from a blogger, “cellulite does not look attractive on anybody.” It was exact words I needed to hear to motivate me to stop with the overeating and laziness and start exercising and focusing on my health. It then occurred to me that my being overweight never once changed the way my husband treated me. Never did he act cold or unresponsive to me, never did he insult my appearance, he never ridiculed me, nothing. He has been a tremendous encourager and heaps praise on me when I hit my goals.

    What you may want to consider when reading words on a page is that it is illogical to associate those words to what you perceive as the author’s disposition. That is projection. For example there is no way for you to discern if I am smiling right now or glaring at the screen. Your mood however will determine this. If you don’t prefer my style of writing, there’s one easy way to solve the issue.

  • In an attempt to give others the benefit of the doubt, my blog post that led to some unpleasant reaction was reworded:

  • Sandy

    I was away for the weekend and what a hornet’s nest! I see that Spacebunny has introducecd herself and everyone can see why that Sarah’s daughyer might be her. I also remeber you , Reitha, from Vox’s blog also.

  • Hi, Sandy. Do you still hang around there? I do not. The most positive thing I can say about that site is that it was a large part of the inspiration I needed to go looking for a world view more in keeping with Jesus and his message, and to eventually start a blog about the new world view. I believe you will see- in this testimony – what parts sort of talk of their influence.

  • Persephone

    Oh, hunnybunny, did someone hurt your widdle feelings? You come on here with your snide remarks and putdowns and think that will make us run away. Sorry, no. We just get to the point where we ignore pinheads, of which you are a prime example.

    Retha actually cares and believes she can help even pinheads see the truth, but the more mature of us realize that you like the rut you’re in. You’re welcome to it.

    Buh bye.

  • every body have a right to choose….