Quoting Quiverfull: Requiring Obedience?

Quoting Quiverfull: Requiring Obedience? November 24, 2013

by John Piper from his blog Desiring God – Parents, Require Obedience of Your Children

Rescue from Foolish Parenting

The defiance and laziness of unbelieving parents I can understand. I have biblical categories of the behavior of the spiritually blind. But the neglect of Christian parents perplexes me. What is behind the failure to require and receive obedience? I’m not sure. But it may be that these nine observations will help rescue some parents from the folly of laissez-faire parenting.

1. Requiring obedience of children is implicit in the biblical requirement that children obey their parents.

“Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right” (Ephesians 6:1). It makes no sense that God would require children to obey parents and yet not require parents to require obedience from the children. It is part of our job — to teach children the glory of a happy, submissive spirit to authorities that God has put in place. Parents represent God to small children, and it is deadly to train children to ignore the commands of God.

2. Obedience is a new-covenant, gospel category.

Obedience is not merely a “legal” category. It is a gospel category. Paul said that his gospel aim was “to bring about the obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5). He said, “I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience — by word and deed” (Romans 15:18).

Paul’s aim was “to take every thought captive to obey Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:5). He required it of the churches: “If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him” (2 Thessalonians 3:14).

Parents who do not teach their children to obey God’s appointed authorities prepare them for a life out of step with God’s word — a life out of step with the very gospel they desire to emphasize.

(If anyone doubts how crucial this doctrine is, please consider reading Wayne Grudem’s chapter, “Pleasing God by Our Obedience: A Neglected New Testament Teaching” in For the Fame of God’s Name, edited by Justin Taylor and Sam Storms.)

3. Requiring obedience of children is possible.

To watch parents act as if they are helpless in the presence of disobedient children is pitiful. God requires that children obey because it is possible for parents to require obedience. Little children, under a year old, can be shown effectively what they may not touch, bite, pull, poke, spit out, or shriek about. You are bigger than they are. Use your size to save them for joy, not sentence them to selfishness.

4. Requiring obedience should be practiced at home on inconsequential things so that it is possible in public on consequential things.

One explanation why children are out of control in public is that they have not been taught to obey at home. One reason for this is that many things at home don’t seem worth the battle. It’s easier to do it ourselves than to take the time and effort to deal with a child’s unwillingness to do it. But this simply trains children that obedience anywhere is optional. Consistency in requiring obedience at home will help your children be enjoyable in public.

5. It takes effort to require obedience, and it is worth it.

If you tell a child to stay in bed and he gets up anyway, it is simply easier to say, go back to bed, than to get up and deal with the disobedience. Parents are tired. I sympathize. For more than 40 years, I’ve had children under eighteen. Requiring obedience takes energy, both physically and emotionally. It is easier simply to let the children have their way.

The result? Uncontrollable children when it matters. They have learned how to work the angles. Mommy is powerless, and daddy is a patsy. They can read when you are about to explode. So they defy your words just short of that. This bears sour fruit for everyone. But the work it takes to be immediately consistent with every disobedience bears sweet fruit for parents, children, and others.

6. You can break the multi-generational dysfunction.

One reason parents don’t require discipline is they have never seen it done. They come from homes that had two modes: passivity and anger. They know they don’t want to parent in anger. The only alternative they know is passivity. There is good news: this can change. Parents can learn from the Bible and from wise people what is possible, what is commanded, what is wise, and how to do it in a spirit that is patient, firm, loving, and grounded in the gospel.

7. Gracious parenting leads children from external compliance to joyful willingness.

Children need to obey before they can process obedience through faith. When faith comes, the obedience which they have learned from fear and reward and respect will become the natural expression of faith. Not to require obedience before faith is folly. It’s not loving in the long run. It cuts deep furrows of disobedient habits that faith must then not infuse, but overcome.

8. Children whose parents require obedience are happier.

Laissez-faire parenting does not produce gracious, humble children. It produces brats. They are neither fun to be around, nor happy themselves. They are demanding and insolent. Their “freedom” is not a blessing to them or others. They are free the way a boat without a rudder is free. They are the victims of their whims. Sooner or later, these whims will be crossed. That spells misery. Or, even a deadly encounter with the police.

9. Requiring obedience is not the same as requiring perfection.

Since parents represent God to children — especially before they can know God through faith in the gospel — we show them both justice and mercy. Not every disobedience is punished. Some are noted, reproved, and passed over. There is no precise manual for this mixture. Children should learn from our parenting that the God of the gospel is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:7, 29) and that he is patient and slow to anger (1 Timothy 1:16). In both cases — discipline and patience — the aim is quick, happy, thorough obedience. That’s what knowing God in Christ produces.

Parents, you can do this. It is a hard season. I’ve spent more than sixty percent of my life in it. But there is divine grace for this, and you will be richly rewarded.

Comments open below

QUOTING QUIVERFULL is a regular feature of NLQ – we present the actual words of noted Quiverfull leaders and ask our readers: What do you think? Agree? Disagree? This is the place to state your opinion. Please, let’s keep it respectful – but at the same time, we encourage readers to examine the ideas of Quiverfull honestly and thoughtfully.

NLQ Recommended Reading …

Breaking Their Will: Shedding Light on Religious Child Maltreatment‘ by Janet Heimlich

Quivering Daughters‘ by Hillary McFarland

Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement‘ by Kathryn Joyce

 

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • Nea

    I have biblical categories of the behavior of the spiritually blind

    I just bet you do. Judge not…

    Parents represent God to small children

    …Which is apparently a good enough reason to teach the kids idolatry of the parents and to be raised up to break the commandment “have no other gods before me.”

    “I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience — by word and deed”

    Anything in Romans about beating the everlivin’ crap out of church members if they aren’t cheerfully obedient the first time? Because my bible doesn’t seem to have that verse.

    Requiring obedience should be practiced at home on inconsequential things so that it is possible in public on consequential things

    …and there is no possible way for this to actually teach kids that their parents are violent psychotics with zero perspective. That if the kids are going to be hammered for everything, they “might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb”… or that it is in their best interest to get away from their parents permanently.

    They come from homes that had two modes: passivity and anger.

    Yup, that’s the human race. Always, inevitably binary. *eyeroll*

    Not to require obedience before faith is folly. It’s not loving in the
    long run. It cuts deep furrows of disobedient habits that faith must
    then not infuse, but overcome.

    If anyone can translate this into English or provide a citation proving the reasoning behind it, I’d appreciate it.

    Laissez-faire parenting does not produce gracious, humble children. It produces brats.

    He’s repeated that the entire human race has binary psychology, so it MUST be true!

    Or, even a deadly encounter with the police.

    Victim blaming noted. Citation needed. Must include explanation of why most prisoners self identify as Christian and statistics showing the religion of every person shot by police, with footnotes on the the circumstances surrounding the shooting and why parenting is more of a factor than race, class, violence actual or threatened, and mental state.

    Not every disobedience is punished

    Some of us can retain what we’ve read for more than 3 seconds and thus would like to know how point 9 is reconciled with points 1-8 which do not allow for any wriggle room. ESPECIALLY point 4, which explicitly calls for punishing ‘inconsequential’ actions.

    There is no precise manual for this mixture.

    Ohhhh, I get it! So if the parents get arrested or beat a kid to death, you can claim that they didn’t get it right… even if they did follow 8 out of 9 points to perfection.

    In both cases — discipline and patience — the aim is quick, happy, thorough obedience

    Um, there’s no need for patience if “quick, happy, thorough obedience” is provided. Really. There isn’t. Also, modelling a psychotic need to punish the large and the small (point 4 after all; point 9 is not a get out of point 4 free card!) isn’t teaching anything about being “patient and slow to anger.” It seriously isn’t. It’s teaching *the exact opposite.*

  • “Requiring obedience of children is implicit in the biblical requirement that children obey their parents.”

    Oh, now I get where the attitude comes from that men can require submission from their wives. Actually, this is going beyond the meaning of the text in both cases.

    Obedience should be a means to an end, not an end in itself. The point of parenting should not be to create obedient children, but to create self-controlled children who have learned to think for themselves and act responsibly. Sometimes teaching them this means requiring obedience. Other times it simply means securing cooperation– and much more of the latter and less of the former, as they grow and mature.

  • Violet

    I am new to this site and this is a general comment rather than specific to this post.

    Has there been any discussion of why so much of fundamentalist thought relies on St Paul’s letters, rather than the gospels? St Paul is a theologian. He was not an apostle. His teachings are not ‘comandments’. Are fundies ever challenged on this basis?

  • Violet

    I am new to this site and this is a general comment rather than specific to this post.

    Has there been any discussion of why so much of fundamentalist thought relies on St Paul’s letters, rather than the gospels? St Paul is a theologian. He was of an apostle. His teachings are not ‘comandments’. Are fundies ever challenged on this basis?

  • Saraquill

    Going by the detail in this quote, I find that the need for obedience is more a requirement of the writer than with G-d.

  • Brennan

    They’re challenged on it all the time (at least, the ones who venture outside of their bubble to speak with the apostate masses) but it doesn’t seem to leave any kind of an impression on them. Most seem to adhere to a doctrine of biblical inerrancy that, in theory, doesn’t leave room for the privileging of any part of scripture over any other part. They would see it as blasphemy even to suggest that Paul’s writings are no longer relevant or that he might have been wrong–that would be akin to saying God was wrong. In practice, this allows them to cherry-pick from absolutely anywhere in the Bible without regard for context. Thus, a Christianizing of the Greco-Roman household codes becomes “God’s plan for marriage.” An ancient story about Onan denying his wife a child is twisted into a judgment about birth control or masturbation. A psalm in which a man praises his children becomes a divine mandate for the entire “quiver full” movement. It’s hard to have a real discussion with people coming from this kind of thinking; as soon as you start to make in-roads, they’ll pull out anything from Proverbs to Revelations as a proof-text and they can make it mean practically whatever they want.

  • Edie Moore McGee

    Parenting with that kind of insight and discernment would be too hard. It’s much easier to procure enough plumbing supply line to have an implement of punishment in every room and the car and react to everything.