Quoting Quiverfull: The Four Points of Obedience For The Duggar Kids?

Quoting Quiverfull: The Four Points of Obedience For The Duggar Kids? June 29, 2014

From page 44 of the book “Growing Up Duggar” in a section on why children being obedient in all things to the parents is important.

Obedience must be:

  1. Instant. We answer with an immediate, prompt, “Yes ma’am!” or “Yes, sir!” as we set out to obey. (This response is important to let the authority know you heard what he or she asked you to do and that you are going to get it done as soon as possible.) Delayed obedience is really disobedience.
  2. Cheerful.  No grumbling or complaining. Instead, we respond with a cheerful “I’d be happy to!”
  3. Thorough. We do our best, complete the task as explained, and leave nothing out. No lazy shortcuts!
  4. Unconditional. No excuses,. No, ‘That’s not my job!” or “Can’t someone else do it?” or “But…”

Is it just me or does this sound like it’s straight out of Bill Gothard’s Advanced Training Institute literature? Is this an emotionally healthy thing to develop in your children?

QUOTING QUIVERFULL is a regular feature of NLQ – we present the actual words of noted Quiverfull leaders and ask our readers: What do you think? Agree? Disagree? This is the place to state your opinion. Please, let’s keep it respectful – but at the same time, we encourage readers to examine the ideas of Quiverfull honestly and thoughtfully.

Comments open below

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  • Saraquill

    “You! Go forth to the septic tank and use the contents to fertilize the fields with you bare hands!”

    “Yes sir!” *Grins her head off as she hobbles forth on her broken and as yet unset legs*

  • Nefercat

    “We answer with an immediate, prompt…”
    “…we respond with a cheerful…”
    “We do our best,…”
    “Unconditional. No excuses…”

    My, my. Such perfection. So perfect. So cheerful and alert and energetic and industrious and never a down moment never tired never questioning never upset, and always always smiling because we are happy happy happy and authority is never to be questioned not that we would because we. are. so. happy.

    Right.

  • Nea

    Apparently most of the Duggar girls’ book is Gothardism, with his name only slightly scrubbed off. That’s got to be awkward for Daddy Duggar (who is apparently claiming that his family Only Follows Jesus, Ignore the “G” Word In That Book) but I’m betting that Gothard is crossing his fingers hoping that the Duggar glamor will rehabilitate his reputation.

    As for the advice… Nefercat’s right in that it dehumanizes the children into compliant robots, which is massively unhealthy. I’m going to add that it also predisposes the children for abuse, then serves them up to Moloch with a bow and a smile. Notice the hugely important words “THE authority.” Not “Mother and Father,” but any faceless authority must be spoken to deferentially, and cheerfully, thoroughly, unconditionally obeyed. No. Matter. What. And everything I’ve read from Gothardism repeats that EVERYONE is under someone else’s authority – there is no room for autonomy, personal judgment, or even personal ethics.

    And then people wonder why Schaap, Gothard, Phillips, et al end up abusing their unconditional, unrestrained “authority” over others. (And then they wonder why their victims refuse to remain cheerful and compliant like they were trained to be.)

    What the Duggars are describing is not the obedience of happy confident children to their parents on their way to their own autonomous adulthood, it is the compliance of lifelong slaves singing as they pick cotton. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

  • Mel

    What a horrible system to teach your children.

    One of the oddest statements I had read about Gothardism was BG’s insistence that if you follow all 49 character traits employers will be begging for you to work for them. I would never want to hire an adult who believes in this system because they would be a potential disaster in the making.

    Normal up-bringing – where you are allowed to question authority

    Me: Hey, Josh! Can I get you to push up feed with the skid steer?
    Josh: I can’t. I don’t know to push up feed. Plus, I’m too young to run farm equipment until next week.
    Me: Oh, damn. Thanks for telling me. Can I have you finish feeding this calf while I run the skid steer?
    Josh: Yup.

    Gothardism:
    Me: Hey, Josh! Can I get you to push up feed with the skid steer?
    Josh: Yes, ma’am!
    Me: You don’t have to call me ma’am.
    Josh: Yes, ma’am!
    *Josh walks over and tries to start the skid steer*
    Me: Do you know how to start one of those?
    Josh: Yes, ma’am!
    *Skid steer engine is grinding*
    Me: STOP!
    Josh: Yes, ma’am!
    Me: Have you driven one of these before?
    Josh: *sheepishly* No.
    Me: What have you driven before?
    Josh: Nothing. I’m almost 16.
    Me: You’re 15?!?!?
    Josh: Yeah. Why?
    Me: If you don’t have a drivers licence, you can’t drive farm machinery. Did you know that?
    Josh: Yes, ma’am.
    Me: *confused as hell* Then why didn’t you tell me you couldn’t drive it legally?
    Josh: Because you told me to do it and I need to do whatever my boss says.

  • That is not a family home, it’s a boot camp!

    1) Who on earth has been referring to his parents as “sir” and “madam” since the early XX century?

    2) They do not content themselves with deeds, they also want to “thought-police” these kids, in such a Nineteen Eighty-Four-esque manner!

  • Lynn

    I have no doubt that this training is exactly why these kinds of men are able to perpetuate sexual abuse and sexual harassment as long as they do, before getting reported. I know my parents were doing the best they could with the tools they had (and yes, BG was on the shelf), but I was a sitting duck for four men, including an ex-husband, who were my “authorities” in different ways. When I told the first time, the literal reply was, “Boys will be boys,” I think because they had no clue what else to say or do. They did not protect me, so I never learned to protect myself, until the stakes were so high that my children were involved.

  • Independent Thinker

    This reads like a checklist of qualities a sex offender looks for in his or her victims.

  • I am one of those people who believe that Nazis can be mentioned without it being a logic fallacy, in some cases. So, if you call this Godwin’s law, fine, but “unconditional obedience” to fallible humans is more likely to lead to something bad – even horribly bad, as Nazi Germany showed – than to Christ-like actions.
    Christ-like actions need to come from the Spirit whose fruit is, among others, self-control. Self control is control by the self.

  • Nea

    Gothard saying employers will beg to have his sheltered darlings is like Pearl saying secular kids will want to work for his grown-up beaten babies: a pleasant fantasy to sell to the parents, but there is a serious need for citations and proof.

    One of the best things an employee can give an employer is polite pushback. “This task cannot be completed before that task because…” “Upper management hasn’t signed off yet; do we dare start this project?” “I cannot give you this feature because we do not have the capability to do it.”

    Another best thing is initiative. “Here’s a workaround for that missing capability.” “Would it cost less for the company if we…” “Hey, I was reading the project book; has anyone noticed that they are acting as though we have x when we have y?” “The orders weren’t specific, so I did this and delivered that, and here’s why I think it was the right thing to do.”

    And then there’s the classic “No sir. Those are illegal orders and I will not follow them.”

    The robotic, cheerful obedience drains a person of the capacity to have any initiative, much less the ability to politely tell management what management may not know (or not want to hear). That is NOT what a well-run business needs!

    And of course, “I was only following orders” didn’t save anyone at Nuremberg. Why the Duggars think it will save their children, I don’t know.

    edited because damn Discus/ipad interface stopped working. Again.

  • Nea

    Of course it does. A serial sex offender found the perfect way to grow an unending stream of victims.

  • Levedi

    Exactly. It’s ironic that people buy the Gothard/Pearl way of thinking because we do have lots of evidence of what employers want. Critical thinking and problem solving are always in the top ten of skills employers keep saying they want their new employees to have, but you can’t do either if you can’t ask questions of authority.

    I remember going into a professor’s office once to ask a basic question about the class lecture. It was something like “what are the original sources for what you told us about Greek rhetoric today?” I prefaced my question with such a long protestation that I was not in anyway questioning his authority that he stopped me mid-sentence and said “why on earth would I be offended by your question? Those are the kinds of questions I wish all my students would ask.” Now I teach at an evangelical university and I can see in their body language which students are having a moment of cognitive dissonance when I remind them that I want them to question the terms of the assignment, probe the basis of my assertions, and generally think critically about what I tell them.

  • I was thinking the same thing.

  • Levedi

    That is a really, really good point about the fruit of the Spirit.Thanks for pointing it out.

  • Very well said.
    In my opinion, if someone in a position of authority has self-esteem & self-consciousness enough, he/she usually has no great difficulty accepting questioning and/or respectful disagreement.
    Only frail, self-proclaimed authorities are afraid of serious scrutiny.

  • Nea

    Only frail, self-proclaimed authorities are afraid of serious scrutiny.

    THIS. A thousand times this. True, confident authority is not easily threatened.

  • Madison Blane

    To be fair to the girls, saying sir and ma’am isn’t antiquated here, it is cultural and as common as an English or Australian person saying ‘mate’. I grew up Arkansas (like these girls) and have lived in the lower southern states most all of my nearly 40 years, and using the terms sir and ma’am is simply considered good manners here. You teach these things to your kid just like you teach them to chew with their mouth closed or to cover a sneeze. Here, it isn’t antiquated or military-associated; it’s the norm (and part of why visitors think the south is so ‘friendly’).

    It is so routine, we don’t even think about it unless/until it is omitted – it sounds strange NOT to hear it. Here, it is considered rude to answer with a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ without a sir or ma’am attached to the end. It’s not a formality; it’s a pleasantry. Anytime you leave a store, regardless of your age, you’re told, “Have a nice day sir/ma’m”. Even the smallest children are referred to with these terms and it is especially rude not to use them (as is answering with a ‘yeah’ or ‘nuh-uh’) when speaking to an authority who has earned respect or an elderly person.

    Kids will pick it up as part of their vocabulary, even if it isn’t taught. My oldest step-son was raised in Michigan until the age of 10 and then he came to live with us in Arkansas. We explained to his teachers that he wasn’t raised to use the terms sir and ma’am, that no rudeness or disrespect was intended when he answered with just a yes or no, because responding that way is just assumed to be curt and rude otherwise. We never required it. As he aged, it became a natural part of his dialogue just through cultural saturation. On the other hand, when my family lived in Phoenix during the summer of my 7th grade year, my sister and I were CONSTANTLY considered rude for saying sir and ma’am – we had no idea that in most places those terms are reserved for the elderly or the military – and folks always misunderstood our intentions. My sister stayed there for almost two years and it was a big adjustment moving back to the south where she was once again considered rude after she had worked so deliberately hard to quit saying sir and ma’am. (Also, for some reason, when we told people in other states that we were from Arkansas, the FIRST thing they did was to look at our FEET – even under a restaurant table – we DO wear shoes, people!! LOL)

    There are a lot of things to feel squicky about when it comes to the Duggar girls and how they are raised, lots of reasons to feel pity for the restrictive lifestyle forced unto them, but common southern colloquialisms really are not one of them.

  • SAO

    Why does obedience need to be immediate? Why can’t the kid finish what they are doing? Sure, there are some things that need to be done immediately, but the vast majority don’t. What instant obedience says is that the kid’s time, interests, and autonomy come second to the parents’ whims.

    These kinds of unconditional demands encourage parents not to think about the reasonableness of their demands.

    I understand forbidding grumbling, whining, or badgering to get out of the chore, but asking kids to say, “I’d be happy to take out the garbage” is asking them to lie.

  • Thanks for the info; however, something still makes me think that in the Duggars’ worldview this choice of words means something more radical than a traditional pleasantry…

  • Madison Blane

    It’s fine to have a bad day; it is not fine to act like an ass because you’re having a bad day – that simple rule has served us well.
    I expect my kids to be happy to help (or to phrase it in more christian terms: to be a cheerful giver) just as I am happy to help them. It is part of teaching them to care about the needs of the people you love, so they become good partners and good parents. They don’t have to like the chore (let’s be honest, who really likes chores?!) but I expect them to recognize their participation as valuable and a necessary part of a functioning home. In other words – mom isn’t your maid. I expect my kids to acknowledge the efforts of others to help them, even if that person is a sibling or parent, and say ‘thank-you’ instead of assuming everyone knows its appreciated (that is also to teach them to communicate their expectations and feelings, to prepare them for successful relationships). I also expect an immediate acknowledgement when they are asked to do something – they don’t have to get up immediately, but they DO have to let the person know they are heard, their needs are validated, and give a time-frame of when that help can be expected (and I expect them to live up to their word) or give a reasonable explanation of why they cannot.

    So, to use your example, if I say, ‘hey, kiddo, I need you to take out the trash.” I expect them to say something like, “ok, mom, I’ll get to it as soon as I’m finished with this.” And they have the right to expect me to say, “Thank you. I appreciate your help.” I will not expect behaviors from them that I do not model myself. There isn’t a single rule in our household that doesn’t apply to everyone equally, child or adult. Our goal is to raise functioning, stable, independent, caring, empathetic adults who can communicate their needs, expectations, and feelings, regardless of gender – and I think THAT’S where most of us differ from the Duggars!

  • Millipede

    Since when is teaching obedience horrible? There is nothing horrible about the book quotation. There’s nothing wrong with teaching your children obedience. I was raised to obey my parents in this same way (“yes ma’am”, “yes sir”, no complaining, etc.). It’s called respect. I would never complain to my parents’ faces. That is disrespectful. I would complain behind their backs, to my siblings . 🙂 I also wasn’t home schooled, I went to public school, and I knew how to respect and obey those in authority because of the way I was raised. Unlike some children these days who are so rude, disrespectful, and disobedient, and others who are always getting into trouble at school. I teach pre-k (and have taught other ages as well) and I can tell the difference between the children who are not disciplined at home, (I’ve even heard parents confirm my assumptions later) and the ones who are disciplined and taught how to obey. The kids who aren’t disciplined or taught obedience and respect, are always the ones acting up the most in class! I love them all the same, but the difference is still very evident – even at very early ages.

  • Millipede

    I really don’t see anything wrong with teaching your children obedience. I was raised to obey my parents in this same way (“yes ma’am”, “yes sir”, no complaining, etc.). It’s called respect. I would never complain to my parents’ faces. That is disrespectful. I would complain behind their backs, to my siblings . 🙂 I also wasn’t home schooled, I went to public school, and I knew how to respect and obey those in authority because of the way I was raised. Unlike some children these days who are so rude, disrespectful, and disobedient, and others who are always getting into trouble at school. I teach pre-k (and have taught other ages as well) and I can tell the difference between the children who are not disciplined at home, (I’ve even heard parents confirm my assumptions later) and the ones who are disciplined and taught how to obey. The kids who aren’t disciplined or taught obedience and respect, are always the ones acting up the most in class! I love them all the same, but the difference is still very evident – even at very early ages.

    Oh and to me, this sounds more like it’s straight out of the Bible.

  • Mel

    Look at the writing. It’s not written in past tense describing how the Duggar girls were expected to respond as 4-year-old children; it’s how everyone – even women ranging between 24-18 years of age – is expected to live by.

  • Mel

    If it is “straight out of the Bible”, please include the translation, book, chapter and verse that states the four steps of obedience.

  • Millipede

    As long as I lived under my parents’ roof, I had to respond in a very similar fashion as this quote. That’s the way it should be – it was their house after all. At first I thought it was due to the fact that my parents were not born and raised in America (they immigrated here from Nigeria to go to college), but then I noticed other families who were raised this way too. Such as my neighbors across the street from us. We turned out just fine. But as soon as I was out of the home it was sayonara! I am my own person now, but I still show respect towards them. Sometimes I still say yes ma’am, it’s still a habit. But I will admit that the fact that I still say it sometimes at my age, is probably due to our culture. (I also still say “daddy”.)

    By the way, I’ve noticed the same behavior patterns (regarding obedience) in middle school children too. To each his (or her) own I guess. I just wouldn’t go so far as to say that this is horrible though. It’s a lot better than families who neglect their children, curse at them, abuse them, etc. Now that is horrible.

  • lh

    My parents aren’t even terribly extreme – they’re just your typical run-of-the-mill evangelicals – but is pretty much exactly what was expected of myself and my siblings. There are still times when they throw a fit if I don’t do something they ask, or do something differently than they wanted me to…and I’m 22 years old and have my own place. I haven’t lived with them on a full-time basis since I graduated high school.

    It’s not just the extreme fundamentalists that spew this garbage. I’ve noticed in the last decade-fifteen years that it’s gaining steam in what used to be more moderate circles.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    The thing that totally frightens me about the Duggars instant joyous obedience model is that it doesn’t allow any latitude for things like exigent circumstances or illness or very bad days. Like an example from when my kids were still home. One day I remember asking my son Andy to get the trash out for me, while I picked up the downstairs rooms. Laura was scheduled to cook dinner when she got off her job at the bank. Andy and I had just gotten home and whipped through our things we had to do. I’d brought work home and so Andy did the trash and a few extras for me with no whining or complaining but no immediate “YES MA’AM!” either. He did what I asked but not immediately, he took a thirty minute after work break to have a beer and cruise the internet. He did it in his own time. When Laura got home she was in tears, horrible last customer and she was coming down with a cold, feeling like hell. I could have demanded she cook dinner per the schedule, but… I went out for take out and told her to rest. To this day I feel confident that was the right way to handle that day but under the Duggar’s rules none of that would have flown.

  • Madison Blane

    Like I said upthread, the ‘immediate’ bothers me a whole lot more than the ma’am part…that’s just common southern colloquialism (although I realize it sounds colonial to anyone not from here). And hey, there’s always time for a beer (or glass of wine) after work at our house. In fact, time to decompress was mandatory after school for the simple fact that we wanted to teach them good stress management techniques for life. One of our kids took a nap every day after school, even as a senior.

    And you’re right. I expect my kids to ANSWER ME, one way or the other when I make a request, not acquiesce to my every demand regardless. The main reason for that is: I want to know they heard me; communication is much more important than obedience. I’ve raised 3 (and at times 4) boys, they’re notorious for being able to ‘tune out’, especially when involved in an electronic game of some sort. There’s always latitude in timing for carrying out a request, though. If they can’t do it, I’d like to know why – something other than, “can’t you get my brother to do it, I’m playing a game.” (THAT won’t fly!) But sure, finish your game first. Give me a reasonable time frame for when I can expect it done and don’t forget. Because excuse-making and foregoing responsibilities won’t serve them well in their professional lives or in future relationships.

    I should probably also say that my ‘kids’ are now 16, 20, and almost 22. One no longer lives at home and another is only here part-time. Most all of the ‘raising’ part is done; our role is mainly just emotional support at this point. All these practices are hard-wired into them now. This is just what has worked for us in our years of experience and has been adjusted accordingly over the years. Every rule in our house has a specific goal in mind, one we can easily give logical reasoning for that the kids can understand. We encouraged them to question, especially us, and the two that now live outside the home have come back to thank us for the way we prepared them for life. Their girlfriends appreciate the way we’ve raised them to commit, communicate and take responsibility (as do their bosses at work, who have regularly promoted them with pay raises) and all have said so. Gothard and Pearl claim that bosses love their subservient drones, that they make excellent spouses; In my experience, bosses (and partners) want a person who takes initiative and responsibility, who will communicate and question.

    I read A LOT and borrowed many practices from successful parents and psychologists. We threw out the way we were raised and basically started with a blank slate. I hope I can pass that help on to another young parent who is searching, knowing it works, and saving them some time and frustration.

  • Nea

    What, in any of the quiverfull quotes, makes allowances for illness, a bad day, being tired? I’ve yet to see anything that acknowledges that humanity is human.

    On the other hand, I DO remember a biblical story about the guy who asked his kids to do some chores; one was cheerful but didn’t do them; the other one was sullen and belated but did the job. So it’s not like the bible itself demands happy happy joy joy 24/7/365.

  • Millipede

    I will still give you a few examples, even though I did not say it *is* straight out of the Bible. I said it *sounds* like it is. The article asks, “is it just me or does this sound like it’s straight out of Bill Gothard’s Advanced Training Institute literature?” My response to that question is that it sounds like these concepts are straight out of the Bible. If you have read Bill Gothard’s Advanced Training Institute literature, you might opine that it sounds like what the Duggards mention in their book. We’re all entitled to our own opinions of course. But I read the Bible, not Gothard. So my opinion is that their method to obedience is very Biblical in nature. My opinion is biased, because I have not read Gothard, but I have read the Bible. So naturally, I would recognize these concepts as being very similar to what is taught in the Bible; so to me, they sound Biblical.

    For example, Peter says to “be hospital to one another without grumbling” (1 Peter 4:9 NKJV.) This is very similar to their obedience method in that they are not supposed to grumble or complain (“no grumbling or complaining”), but rather they should be cheerful when they respond .

    Another example of a Biblical principal on obedience is when Jesus gives a parable about the two sons who are asked by their father to work in his vineyard. The first son says he won’t do it, but then later he feels bad and decides to go do it. The second son says he will do it, but then later ends up not doing it at all. (Matthew 21:28-31 NKJV) This is also similar because the Duggars mention that “delayed obedience is really disobedience”.

    Paul says in 1 Corinthians that whatever we do, we should do it for the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31 NKJV.) Which means we should not do anything half-heartedly. This sounds like their obedience method because they are not supposed to do anything lazily and they have to be thorough. Colossians 3:17 also says that “whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus”; and verse 20 says that children are to “obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:17, 20 NKJV)

    In Luke 14:16-24 (NKJV) Jesus gives another parable which highlights the importance of immediate obedience, and shows why we should obey promptly rather than make excuses like these people did (“but they all with one accord began to make excues” v. 18.) This reminds me of how they mentioned that obedience should be unconditional (no making excuses.)
    ————-
    There are more that I’ve read but I can’t think of where the passages are off the top of my head right now. I can try and look them up if you want me to, just let me know! 🙂

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    Acknowledgement quickly is good. But there are always moments when that might not happen and might not be the childs fault.

    Makes me sad to know that in the ITA world there’s not room for bad days, occasional lapses or prioritizing needs. It’s not healthy for anyone.

    I think most folks try to raise their children to be productive members of society, not robots.

  • gimpi1

    I admit to wondering if the production of “compliant lifelong slaves” is a feature or a bug. I lean towards feature.

  • gimpi1

    “One of the best things an employee can give an employer is polite pushback. “

    Yes! Yes! A thousand times yes! I always say I owe my employers and clients my best effort, not my compliance. Sometimes the two are mutually exclusive. Especially in creative fields.

    “And of course, “I was only following orders” didn’t save anyone at Nuremberg.”

    Yes again! I’ve said that many times. I can’t stress enough how dangerous the Umbrella of Authority nonsense is, and this is one if its primary dangers. The idea that if someone in authority told you to do something, your sole responsibility is to obey is a disaster in the making, as the Nazi party showed us. And I don’t think it’s a Godwin to point that out

  • gimpi1

    There’s a profound difference between respect and obedience. I always respected my parents, but I didn’t always obey them, and I certainly wouldn’t “snap-to” like a soldier. I had a lot of responsibility growing up, since both my parents were disabled, and as a result of that I expected to be treated with respect.

    Also, being able to complain in a good-natured and respectful way is important to communication. If someone can’t tell you they’re unhappy with a situation, how can you improve it.

  • gimpi1

    Again, I disagree. It’s not “their roof,” it’s a family home. The kids are stake-holders too. The parents have more authority, but it can’t be absolute.

    With responsibility should come rights and respect. It’s one thing to restrict a young child – they may not know enough to be allowed out alone, to handle money, whatever. However a child in their mid-teens should be able to make their own choices, and that includes negotiating with their parents about chores, curfews and privileges.

    Mindless obedience is not a virtue. Pretty-much nothing mindless is.

  • gimpi1

    I live in the northwest, and honorifics like Sir and Ma’am are rare and generally reserved for the elderly. I can still remember the first time someone called me Ma’am. It depressed me for days.

  • gimpi1

    I “Godwined” this earlier. There’s really no way not to. Unquestioning obedience can take us to bad places. The Nazis were one of the worst. It’s important to remember that.

  • gimpi1

    “… if I say, ‘hey, kiddo, I need you to take out the trash.” I expect them to say something like, “ok, mom, I’ll get to it as soon as I’m finished with this.” And they have the right to expect me to say, “Thank you. I appreciate your help.”

    Yes, this is what I was trying to say to Millipede earlier. It’s one thing to expect kids to be responsible, to help out, to follow household rules, its quite another to expect instant, mindless, ‘paste on a smile’ obedience to every parental whim, as though the child isn’t a person at all. Your qualifiers, “I need you,” “…I’ll get to it as soon as…,” and saying thank you make all the difference. Well said.

  • gimpi1

    Yes. It’s the inflexibility that presents part of the problem.

  • gimpi1

    Acknowledgements are becoming more important between my husband and myself, because we’re both having a bit of trouble with our hearing. He may not have taken out the trash because he didn’t hear me ask. I may not have taken the chops out of the freezer because I didn’t hear him ask. Acknowledgements are more than a matter of politeness as you age!

  • gimpi1

    In general, I have noticed many outlier ideas, courtship, home-schooling, wifely submission, “sheltering” being more accepted in fundamentalist circles. In part, perhaps because people seem to compete for ‘holiness’ in these groups, and in part because people who might have pulled these groups toward the center have left.

  • Nea

    Feature. After all, Gothard was growing his own army of women to choose to molest, right down to convincing women that the kind of hair *he* likes to touch is the only godly kind of hair to have.