Quoting Quiverfull: Treating ‘Disrespect’ With More ‘Disrespect’ Is Biblical?

Quoting Quiverfull: Treating ‘Disrespect’ With More ‘Disrespect’ Is Biblical? November 9, 2014

ohreallyby Mary Sunshine and her commenters at her blog Sunshine Mary and the Dragon – Nip Disrespect in the Bud Before it Blooms into the Flower of Rebellion

Came across this blog on Facebook on one of the NLQ affiliate sites. Struck by how disrespectfully rude some of the ideas for dealing with disrespect from wifes are. Any man that pulls this crap needs to spend a few nights without ‘marital affections’ sleeping on the sofa. Respect in marriage is a two way street no matter if you believe in God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or nothing. You cannot get respect from your spouse by disrespecting them back. Life doesn’t work that way no matter what the CPM & QF people think.

This is exactly the type of thinking I believed was normal back in my old church days that I now find unbelievably toxic and harmful to everyone involved. It doesn’t even line up with the words of Christ.

To which Julian O’Dea responded with:

If your wife is rude to you when you go somewhere together, stop going there with her. Men berated by their wives at supermarkets should not be there in the first place.

I heard a husband tell his wife to control their dog at the vet’s today. That is so rare that I was not sure he had actually done it. Wives ordering husbands around is more common.

I chimed in to add:

Women will behave about as well or as poorly as you train them to. Don’t want her to disrespect you in public? Then don’t tolerate it even once.

And Julian O’Dea provided an illuminating example:

I was driving my wife to work a couple of days ago,during the middle of her bout of PMT (PMS).. She made a disrespectful remark. So I took her home and told her to catch the bus. She was seriously inconvenienced.  Do not tolerate serious disrespect.

A wise response.

Readers, I must humbly confess a sin to you, out of a desire for other women to learn from my example.  Sadly, my husband has had to do something similar to me that Julian did to his wife.  You see, HHG has asked me not to put sharp knives in the dishwasher because it dulls the blades and warps the handles over time, but sometimes I sneak them in anyway when I’m feeling too lazy to wash them by hand. He’s reprimanded me for it a few times, rather harshly the last time, and I gave him some disrespectful attitude back.  I seem to be intent on rebelling against him on this point.

But oh dear, readers, my naughty hens have now come home to roost! The dishwasher broke yesterday, and he tried to fix it but determined that it could not be fixed.  When I said, well, we’d better go get a new one then, he said

No.

He said we aren’t replacing it because I wouldn’t obey him on the sharp knives! Believe me, I shed a few tears but to no avail.  He says that now I can just wash everything, and not only the knives, by hand and let it be a lesson.

QUOTING QUIVERFULL is a regular feature of NLQ – we present the actual words of noted Quiverfull leaders and ask our readers: What do you think? Agree? Disagree? This is the place to state your opinion. Please, let’s keep it respectful – but at the same time, we encourage readers to examine the ideas of Quiverfull and Spiritual Abuse honestly and thoughtfully

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  • Mel

    Oh, hell no.

    Yes, dishwashers do dull knives. So does USING the knife. (And in my experience, I need to sharpen a knife several times while doing a massive canning job so the relative amount of damage from the dishwasher is minimal in comparison.)

    Solution to BOTH: Buy a freaking knife sharpener – they cost about $7 and last for years.

    My husband sharpens my knives for me. Because he’s a sweetheart and NOT A CONTROL FREAK.

    Stories like this make me wonder (darkly) if someday women who live like this are surprised when God/Jesus/FSM looks at them and says “Why did you let him treat you like that? You are special to me just as you are and I liked watching the knives in the dishwasher….”

  • Nightshade

    I followed the link, kind of wish I hadn’t. I’m horrified by the disrespect towards wives that is actually being encouraged by the wives themselves. They don’t get any respect from their men, and they keep their eyes tightly shut so they can’t even see what’s really happening!

  • Astrin Ymris

    There is something hideously wrong with a belief system that tells men that it’s okay to treat their wives in such a patronizing and demeaning way… and tells women that they’re obliged to take it.

  • Brennan

    Every time I think there’s not a thing in the CP movement that can make me go WTF any more than I already have, some dumbass comes out with “Women will behave about as well or as poorly as you train them to” and gets accolades for it. I must now Netflix a Xena marathon to wash the taste of this out of my mouth.

  • Allison the Great

    No. Just no. Don’t marry someone who thinks it’s okay to treat you like a child. He’s your husband, not your fucking dad.

  • *scream of rage*
    *flashbacks to The Voice Debacle*
    Woman! Get the fuck out of that mockery of a marriage as fast as you possibly can! That is an Offramp Situation! You do NOT deserve disrespect! EVER!!! I don’t fucking care WHO he says is God, he’s not following the God who sent Christ! You are a damned ADULT, Woman!
    *Ursine Roar*

  • Amen! Fucking A-to-the-Men! I FULLY expect quite a few people to get the “Why did you put up with that bullshit? I never said to let anyone turn you into a doormat, you mean so much more than that to me. Why didn’t you tell him that treating you with disrespect was treating ME with disrespect?…”

  • Allison the Great

    I was scrolling through that bullshit post and I noticed that there is a post that comes either before or after fit about “I miss the patriarchy”. I clicked on that and I saw things about”Red Pill Society”. I am wondering if this is part of Free Northerner or some bullshit like that.

  • Nea

    It’s certainly no rebuttal to the idea that such forms of Christianity treat women like children or slaves. No wonder there’s such a drive to keep women uneducated and helpless – no woman with options has to put up with that shit!

  • Nea

    Misery loves company, with an icing of “But I’m a special snowflake who isn’t like THAT!”

  • Nea

    My dad never treated me with that kind of disrespect either.

  • Nea

    Damned pity that one wife didn’t catch a bus right out of town and to a divorce lawyer.

  • Allison the Great

    Neither did mine. However, the way these men are talking about their wives, their partners in life, it’s as though they are trying to act like their fathers rather than their spouses. There were even a couple of comments about spanking their wives, WTF is that all about?

  • Allison the Great

    I would have done that.

  • Mirella222

    Do these people even realize how petty and immature these men are? I mean, really, let’s look at this:

    “Oh boo hoo, my wife said something that was less than pleasant at the grocery store and hurt my little feelings, now I am never going with her to the store again!!!”
    “I’m going to yell at my wife to control the dog, because obviously she has magical powers that can make a dog stop panicking; also I will not even try to help with the dog because….because….because I don’t want to! Leave me alone!!”
    “My wife is suffering from cramps/headaches/general discomfort, but I am going to make her walk to the bus and deal with buses today anyway, because I can’t tolerate having my poor little feelings hurt”
    “I’m not going to get a new dishwasher because my wife uses it to wash knives, and it makes them dull, and of course I am too incompetent and pathetic to know basic skills like how to sharpen knives”

    I mean….really? These cretins are less worthy of respect than a steaming pile of shit, and they have the audacity to brag about it! Respectable people do not behave in this petulant manner, and I sincerely hope that their wives are able to one day divorce them and find better lives, whether on their own or married to a men worthy of their love and respect.

  • The Red Pill dudes are part of the “men’s rights movement”/Pick-up Artist community. RPers believe that men are the real victims of discrimination and are living under a system of misandry caused by, you guessed it, women. Basically, they are your normal woman-hating entitled assholes that use any half-baked idea to justify continued misogyny.

  • Mirella222

    They always leave out the parts about men loving their wives. And about mutual submission between spouses. And about all people being equal in Christ. And about treating others as you would want to be treated. Can’t have pesky verses like that getting in the way of their ideology!

  • Mirella222

    The internalized misogyny is mind boggling.

  • ConcepcionImmaculadaPantalones

    A safe, sane, and consensual BDSM relationship is a lot more fun.

  • Brennan

    Somehow, I don’t see these people doing check-ins, aftercare, and limit negotiation. So, yes, we’re pretty sure.

  • There are days when my only desire is to be an avenging feminist superhero kicking the collective ass of the patriarchy. After reading the original blog post and the ensuing comments, today is one of them.

    Edit: Good goddess, that entire blog is a cesspit of straw-feminist rhetoric and misogyny.

  • Mirella222

    Of course! Don’t you know Paul had it all wrong? Marriage is the ONE TRUE WAY FOR EVERYONE EVER and celibacy is just for sissy pansy men who aren’t manly enough to have wives to bully.

  • Nea

    So would I. But then, I also put the sharp knives in the washer, because y’know what? I can buy more whenever I want! And nobody gave me crap about replacing the washer either, because I own the house.

  • Nea

    And nobody gets to drink or dance. Never mind all the people who danced in the Bible *or* Jesus turning water into wine.

  • Nea

    It’s about 24 months of probation, according to Google. Domestic abuse is a crime, after all.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Some dudebro figured out that it was easier to get away with domestic violence if you didn’t leave bruises in visible areas.

    Also, they realized that if a woman tries to confide to a friend “My husband hits me”, she’ll probably be urged to get out of the relationship. But if she says, “My husband spanks me”, people assume it’s a consensual kink thing, and quickly change the subject.

  • Allison the Great

    Yeah, I saw one commenter say that the only people who have any “say” in their marriage is the two being married, which, in a relationship that the Red Pill Idiots ™ would find ideal, she doesn’t get to cry out for help. In a normal relationship where there’s mutual respect, then yeah, don’t badmouth your spouse to your friends.

  • Allison the Great

    That and, if it were me, a restraining order and me moving out of state.

  • Suzanne Harper Titkemeyer

    I was sad to see that the author tried manipulating her husband with tears to replace the dishwasher. What are we now? Thirteen years old?

  • Nea

    A friend of mine told me about her mother’s solution back before domestic abuse was taken seriously by the police. When her husband hit her, the mother waited until he fell asleep.

    And then shaved every single hair off the front of his body from head to toe.

    When he woke up, she told him he had two choices if he intended to lift a hand to her ever again: kill her the next time and go to jail for murder or never sleep again.

  • Nea

    Seriously. Their own logic can be warped back on them: if Mr. Manly can’t act like an adult, he doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously as a leader.

  • Nea

    I waded through the sewer of the comments and someone brought up mutual submission verses. Little Miss Sunshine told him that he was misinterpreting plain English.

    The Bible: to be taken literally unless a literal interpretation threatens someone’s worldview.

  • Hannah

    After everybody was already drunk… 😉

  • Edie Moore McGee

    I couldn’t help myself. I had to comment. I suggested that she start putting aside whatever savings she could realize from her grocery budget and replace the darned thing. You can get a basic dishwasher for $400. I suggested that, better yet, she save for attorney fees and ditch the dude.

    I do agree with the part about washing good knives by hand.

  • Edie Moore McGee

    Dude! I’m callin’ you a waaaaambulance right now!

  • Allison the Great

    So much for being a “command-man”

  • I wrote a response when Matt Walsh did a blog post on this same subject. I call it “If You Expect Real Respect” http://watchtheshepherd.blogspot.com/2014/03/if-you-expect-real-respect.html – BTW, Mark Driscoll had a horrible comment on disrespect in marriage, too.

  • Aimee Shulman

    Well, considering the relationship dynamic enforced by the husband, it’s not like she’s allowed to try and convince him with words. That might be even MORE disrespectful, and result in even worse treatment.

  • Allison the Great

    I don’t think Little Miss Sunshine is the correct name for her. It’s Little Miss Red Pill Doormat.

  • Evelyn

    OMG I thought it was going to be a nasty article about teaching *children* respect in a demeaning and harsh way, but this is even worse. Boggling.

  • Allison the Great

    Yeah, I saw that too. She’s reduced herself to childish behavior. Maybe she is the type who wanted a daddy? That’s insane.

  • Mirella222

    I wonder is he simply could not afford a new dishwasher (or knives) but rather than being honest with his wife, he decided to make it her fault? I mean, admitting that he could not afford to replace warped knives, or a dishwasher, would be “emasculating” in this culture, so better to blame it on the nearest woman.

  • Nea

    It’s hard to tell from Little Miss Sunshine, who seems to be acting the child he’s treating her as. It’s as logical an explanation as any, especially as he tried to fix it himself instead of calling a plumber.

    Or he could just be that vindictive and controlling. The guy who turned around and made his wife late for work certainly is.

  • Nea

    Anybody want to bet how long it takes for that comment to get deleted?

  • Nea

    Thing is… funny how the red pill of “truth” dishes up a distorted, limited world view. Almost as if it’s the pill of delusion.

  • Nea

    Don’t you secretly wonder about the kind of guy who wants to have sex with someone he considers a mental and emotional child? Because I sure do.

  • Nea

    It certainly has a lot more real respect.

  • No bet. It’s a guaranteed hit.

  • And a LOT more communication.

  • Allison the Great

    I know, I’ve been reading their comments from other posts. A lot of these men are trying to sound intelligent and are coming up with the most insulting things to say about how women think. One said that women only like men that the other women like so that we can be part of a herd. Words fail me.

  • Independent Thinker

    My husband is a bit OCD about sharpening knives. I think it takes him about ten minutes to sharpen the whole knife block. It’s not exactly a challenging task for someone with minimal brain function. He never complains about that task. I recently asked him to oil my Kitchenaid mixer before the holiday baking season and he didn’t complain about that either. Relationships are give and take unless you are married to a complete a-hole who can not be bothered with small tasks that will bring his wife big joy.

  • Independent Thinker

    and an off switch. No one is expected to be in BDSM relationship mode 24/7.

  • Why delete when you can take the chance to preach to the poor soul who is so deluded by the world that divorce attorney is an actual thing. I mean, marriage is between a man, a woman, and God. So it’s, like, forever.
    Stop throwing stones at her house with your catapult from the lesbian duplex!
    😛

  • That’s why everyone is always trying to get at Michael Pearl. We’re all so jealous that Debi nabbed that winner.

  • Brennan

    Upvotes for biblical literacy because nobody ever seems to quote the fun parts. I like to imagine that Jesus was just a little bit tipsy when he decided that that should be his first miracle. 😉

  • I also left a comment (which I don’t imagine will make it out of moderation):

    My goddess, but you folks are insane. No man has authority over a woman.
    No man has a right to treat his wife like a child. I feel sorry for all
    of you that you think so little of yourselves that you continue to live
    this way. I’d rather spend the rest of my life with my vibrator and
    cats than spend a second under the domination of another.

    Yeah, a little childish and/or rude to call them “insane,” but that was the nicest thing I could come up with.

  • Nea

    Wow, it would be more subtle for him to wear a T-shirt saying “I have a hard time getting women to pay me the attention I want them to give me.”

  • Jessica Lynne Roulston

    I don’t even treat my students like these men treat their wives!
    I’ve only come across a guy like this once. I did eharmony and this one guy and I were on the “answering questions” stage. When we started talking about our careers he said he was looking for a woman who “was willing to follow him in his quest to become a biblical scholar and to be willing to give up all for him” Yeah, thanks but no thanks! Not unless you are also willing to move for my career.

    I then asked my dad if he would have been willing to move for my mom’s job, he reminded me that when they got married, she made more than he did. His response ended, “If your mom had been offered a position running a Library somewhere, we would have moved automatically for her job” If my dad tried to talk to my mom the way these guys do, he would probably be dead!

  • Independent Thinker

    I am so thankful my cat decided to park himself on my left arm while reading this post. My little furball is the only thing keeping my blood from boiling right now. I read the comment section in the link posted. Many comments state the solution is for the kids to wash the dishes. Parenting 101 don’t make adult problems kid problems. This isn’t about a dishwasher. It’s about a controlling man who wants to punish his wife over a problem to could be solved for a few hundred dollars. It’s about a couple who can not put a reasonable plan together to make both the husband and the wife happy. Screw the dishwasher. You have two adult children who are supposed to be examples to their own children of what compromise looks like. Just divorce. Seriously, if the two of you can make it through a disagreement broken dishwasher problem you are wasting your time staying together. If you act this immature and stupid over a dishwasher you aren’t prepared to handle big problems like losing a child or serious illness in the family. Stop having kids you are clearly not role models. My husband and I could come up with a reasonable compromise to this problem in three to five minutes even if we were flat broke.

  • Brennan

    Honestly, I’m not sold on the idea that the tears were an attempt at manipulation largely because the ability to cry on command, devoid of any emotional context, is such a rare talent. People cry for a lot of reasons–hurt, frustration, anger. I’m an occasional anger-crier and frequent frustration-crier. If I was in this woman’s shoes, I can see the waterworks turning on simply because of the disrespect and the pettiness of my partner being willing to triple my workload just to teach me a lesson. To my mind, the whole trope of women’s manipulating tears is (1) overdone and (2) kind of sexist. It denies the validity of people’s actual emotions.

  • Nightshade

    Ain’t THAT the truth!

  • Trollface McGee

    Well, that cost me brain cells and up’d my blood pressure.
    Think I’ll go snuggle with cat-boy, he has me well trained but at least he has manners.

  • Trollface McGee

    Oh, they’re MRAs, well that explains much.
    To call their ideas half-baked is an insult to half-baked ideas, their ideas are so undercooked that they’ve become subsidised housing for salmonella.

  • Trollface McGee

    There’s an idea, buy a knife sharpener.. and when asshole hubby is around, slice bananas and cucumbers, slowly and methodically… and smile, always smile.
    That or get a Hutzler 571 banana slicer
    http://www.amazon.com/Hutzler-571-Banana-Slicer/dp/B0047E0EII

  • KarenH

    If they gave out Nobel prizes for a prettily turned phrase, you’d win this year’s award 🙂

  • KarenH

    I have to wonder just how happy the woman is that she doesn’t have to drag her anchor to the grocery store any more.

  • Nicole

    That was satirical, right? Right??? Please?

  • laura

    I’m sorry what? Train your wives? She is a person not a dog. So she washed your stupid beloved knives a couple of times. GET OFF IT. What a jerk. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought there was somthing In the Bible about forgiveness? If there is a god I’m pretty sure he just gave your wife permission to spit in your dinner.

  • Antoinette Herrera

    I had to read this article for myself, just to know whether “Mary Sunshine” was serious.

    The blog entry was hideous. The comments were worse. How deep does internalized misogyny run to make a woman revel in having a man treat her like property? Does she really think that life would be better if women couldn’t vote, receive an education, work, and lived in a state of hypervigilance just to enjoy the safety of “alpha” males to keep them in line?

    As for the male commenters: their worldview is quite brittle and fearful, and the machismo is nothing short of toxic. They may try to act noble, but they’re not above bullying, manipulation, and other acts of derision and violence…

  • SAO

    Read Ibsen’s A Doll’s House. It’s a play written in 1879 critiquing the Victorian norms that expected women to be sweet but empty-headed, relying on their husbands to do all the thinking.

  • SAO

    You earn respect, you don’t command it. You can command an outward show of respect.

    Patriarchy strikes me as a large number of narcissistic men using the bible to bully women into putting up with unacceptable behavior.

  • Jenny Islander

    You want to know who decided that that should be Jesus’ first public miracle? Go reread the passage, ‘s all I’m sayin’.

    (Spoilers: His mother.)

    (And when he was all “What has this got to do with me? It isn’t time for me to go public yet,” she went over to the servants who were managing the feast and said, “Do whatever he tells you.” And behold, there was some really, really good wine.)

    (Submissive womanhood my left nostril. GO MOMS!)

  • Jenny Islander

    My late MIL confirmed to me once that she knew ladies back in the ’50s and ’60s who got bottomless refills of Valium “for their nerves” and made sure that their husbands took it as soon as possible after they came home from work. Apparently the right type of drink offered submissively after taking the lord and master’s coat and hat would hide the taste.

  • This isn’t just disrespect. This is ABUSE. No one should be forced to put up with it, no matter how ungodly they are.

  • That is so incredibly sad, and the fact that culturally there was *nothing* else that could have been done… I don’t want to go back there, ever. Not for all the frilly dresses in the world.

  • Nea

    Respect is like a paycheck. You get it from work, not sitting on your butt and howling to be given it.

  • SAO

    Aside from the rudeness, the dishwasher example displays glaring inefficiencies. In a complementarian relationship, the wife manages the home and chores like dishes and cooking. But, rather than the husband relying on her expertise and her ability to manage her duties in the most efficient way, he dictates to her and punishes her for ignoring his dictate. Now, she doing the dishes is going to take an extra hour or so of her time a day. Had she sharpened her knives twice a year, she’d still have sharp knives, and lots more time. Maybe if the knives were cheap, they’d wear out after 50 years of dishwashing and wear instead of after 51 years or wear and handwashing.

    So, where is this extra hour a day going to come from? From supervising the kids? From paying attention to their homeschooling? From doing other things of value around the house? From sleep, making her cranky and tired?

    I had a disagreement with my husband over the dishwasher not long ago. The replacement to our broken DW was delivered and installed when my husband was away. Maybe a month later, I was explaining to one of my kids how to use it. My husband (who is generally in charge of appliances and electronics) interrupted to tell my daughter how to put in detergent to a DW, which he had never used nor read the manual of. I told him politely to butt out, as I’d used the DW and read the manual and knew what I was talking about and he didn’t. He acknowledged this was true and shut up. I then explained to both my daughter and my husband the trick to the detergent drawer of the DW.

    I wonder what Sunshine would advise? That I be quiet and risk the detergent drawer jamming because my daughter followed bad instructions? That my husband refuse to ever buy DW detergent again because I “disrespected” his (bad) instructions? Pretend I wasn’t ready to run the DW and try to interest my husband in reading the manual hoping he’d notice his error and countermand his bad instructions? All of these involve a lot of inconvenience for the sole purpose of avoiding a husband being subjected to the obvious truth that someone who has read the manual probably knows more than someone who hasn’t.

    Maybe Sunshine can convince herself that this increases her “respect” for her husband, but most women are perfectly well aware when their husbands are unreasonable and when their decrees waste time and make everything less efficient. Further, older kids can see this, too, and it doesn’t increase their respect for their father, either. (It might increase their fear of disobeying, but that’s a different thing).

  • Allison the Great

    From reading the comments in some of the older posts, I saw that most of these men are exactly like Michael Pearl. It appears the MRM is filled with infantile little Michael Pearls. Their masculinity is threatened by being questioned or challenged by anything. And they brag about this!

    In one of the posts, I think it was the Abilene one, some guy was talking about how the MRM cannot mobilize and achieve anything like what feminism has because banding together like that is something that women do, because we’re “herd creatures”. Men don’t do that because they travel in packs (they’re a one-man wolf-pack! and when they meet like-minded assholes, that wolf-pack expands! Welcome to my wolf-pack, brother! Sorry, I couldn’t help myself) And because they travel in packs and stay in those packs only long enough to meet their self-interests, they will never do what women have with feminism. That and, women are oh-so-very-evil and untrustworthy. We only exist to hurt men, apparently. We’re sinful little Daughters of Eve.

    When I was reading that I thought, “bitch please” . The reason the MRM will never accomplish anything is because there are not enough of them. Most men don’t act like that. They have more integrity and they’re men, not children.

    And then there’s this, because I had to.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjvHNXSWvPs

  • Allison the Great

    All the up votes!

  • Evelyn

    No, actually I don’t. I was married to a man who hoped I would be a child, and got really angry when I wasn’t. He really got off on the rape. So I suppose these guys either have the “fun” of someone they can boss around like a porn star, or they get the “run” of exerting their power explicitly by forcing sex. Seems rather perfect for them either way.

  • Astrin Ymris

    IOW, classic “isolating the victim from her support system”.

    Though I think calling them Red Pill Idiots™ might feed into their delusions that they’re right. Maybe Colorblind Pill Popping Idiots™ would be better.

    ;-D

  • Evelyn

    My daughter saw me reading this, and I am *thrilled* that she thought it was as awful as I did, which means the xh hasn’t brainwashed her. We solved some of the “puzzles” together. Like, what should a spouse do if the other spouse keeps putting the good knives in the dishwasher? A: Wash them yourself, by hand. And maybe ask the spouse what other work you could do to lighten the load that makes it frustrating to wash knives by hand. So it was a hideous and disgusting blog post, but it was very educational for at least one little girl who wants to make sure she doesn’t marry that kind of man!

  • Mirella222

    Ding ding ding! We have a winner! These men are not worthy of respect, and I suspect that deep down they realize this; but it’s easier to bully their wives and children into submission than it is to, you know, act in a way that would be worthy of admiration.

  • Astrin Ymris

    I believe a lot of these MRA men say they want respect but what they really want is fear.

  • Mirella222

    Yes, so much this. In my opinion, if you don’t like how your family members/room mates/spouse/etc do housework, then either a) do it yourself or b) get over it and move on. The only exceptions I make is if the other person is doing something that is actually damaging or unhygienic (i.e. they are using steel wool on something it should not be used on and are scratching it, or they are forgetting to vacuum under beds and in corners which leaves the room dirty). In these cases it is best to point it out to the person so they stop breaking stuff/leaving the place dirty all the time. But if it is about a preference (like washing knives by hand, because let’s be honest, the dishwasher dulls them only slightly, it’s using them that truly dulls them) then you can do it yourself or just let it go already.

  • Sunshine Mary seems, like Vox Day and perhaps Free Norhtener (the latter whom I luckily have read only 2 or 3 articles of, ever, so I can’t really say about him), to be at the intersection of “Christian” Patriarchy and MRA. CP and MRA – two horrible tastes that taste even worse together.

  • Sunshinemary’s messages are from an alleged Christian? What about Jesus’ 70×7 stuff?

  • What does sane even mean in BDSM? What things will be unacceptable in BDSM because they are safe and consensual, but not sane? Is it sane to allow a partner to give you an unjust punishment for something (s)he would not be punished for? Is it sane to desire humiliation? Is there a sane reason to feel happier when you negotiate a safe word than when your “no” is obeyed?

    And many in the BDSM community drop the word “safe” in favour of “risk aware” – they know it is not safe, and nevertheless do the risky things they do.

  • Astrin Ymris

    BDSM is often role play that has a pre-agreed upon scenario with a begin, middle, and end– followed by aftercare.

    It’s not my thing, but it’s NOT an abusive relationship in and of itself (though ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’ shows that it’s possible for an abusive relationship to exist in addition to the BDSM).

    Here’s some ‘Fifty Shades of Grey’ anti-fanfiction which might explain better.

    http://twispitefic.livejournal.com/55349.html

  • gimpi1

    This is nauseating. Especially the “dishwasher” anecdote. “… reprimanded me…, rather harshly…, and I gave him some disrespectful attitude back” indeed. If he didn’t wind up with one of those dulled knives in his back, he got off easy.

    My husband is my knife-sharpener, too. He takes care of the knives whenever I ask him to, and whenever he notices that they need a touch-up. He does it because I do the vast majority of the cooking (I’m a better cook) and it’s his way of showing some appreciation for my work. He doesn’t demand I use or clean them in a way to minimize his effort. Because he’s a nice person, not a dictator.

    While my husband would never, never say or do such a thing, if-in bizarro-world-he did, he would now be washing all the dishes. Alone. In another state, most likely.

    As to refusing to take someone to work if they don’t get adequate fawning over, again, they can pay the bills without my contribution.

    I treat my husband with respect. He treats me with respect. We don’t demand obeisances of each other. We don’t kiss each other’s asses… Well… perhaps that last one…

  • gimpi1

    That’s heart-breaking. To have a marriage so bad, to be in fear of violence to the point where covertly drugging your husband is the lesser of two evils, and to have no real way out of it, that would be a life not worth living.

  • Catherine

    Growing up, I was always told that by my stepfather that he didn’t need to respect us the way he expected us to respect him, because he paid the bills.
    Also, I wouldn’t believe the whole “make her take the bus” or other “make things inconvenient for her” BS if not for the fact that he did that too. I remember the occasional family outing where he would just leave us all stranded because he perceived some kind of disrespect.

  • Everything you said there, I have heard before. What I asked is what the BDSM community mean with the word “sane.”

    I have heard of BDSM people writing of aftercare being regarded as a joke by some BDSM participants, of bottoms crying alone in corners alone at BDSM parties, of the scene being “rife with people who cross… boundaries”, etc. So I am glad you qualified it with the word “often” – not “usually” or “always.” The other half of the truth is: Often it is not. Here is an article with links with testimony by participants: http://christianrethinker.wordpress.com/2014/08/09/bdsm-is-not-safe-it-is-full-of-predators-and-cover-ups-for-predators/ (The reason for this article is to lessen the chance that outsiders will start to get involved with such a problematic community.)

    But true or not, it is not an answer. I asked how the BDSM community distinguish sane from not sane.

  • gimpi1

    Ahh, the joys of a paycheck. If I wanted a new dishwasher, I’d just buy one.

    Also, if anyone spoke to me the way her husband speaks to her, he’d be looking for some body-parts, and I would suggest he start in the disposal.

  • *shudder*
    *notes the use of Past Tense in describing the relationship*
    *salutes for the courage to escape*

  • If you’re curious, Samantha on Defeating the Dragons has an article about that topic herself.

    http://defeatingthedragons.wordpress.com/2014/11/07/on-being-a-kinky-christian-feminist/

    From what I understand, not having been involved in the *community*, but knowing someone who has been, there is a LOT of focus on communication between participants. My friend, in particular, would be positively shattered if it was revealed that they’d accidentally crossed boundaries because they didn’t know that those boundaries were there. This friend is absolutely *adamant* that if the activity were to ever become not-fun, to TELL them and they’ll stop. That’s the whole purpose of the “safe word”. To stop things before they go too far.

    There’s good communities and there’s bad ones, I’m afraid, and if I were into that sort of thing, any community that regards boundaries and aftercare as a joke… I wouldn’t want a damn thing to do with that group.

  • Nea

    Retha is extremely anti BDSM and will actively ignore whatever you say. At least she’s stopped making public moral judgements about the people who defend it in this blog.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Hopefully, the women who’s into BDSM will come back, and you can ask her. (Unfortunately, I can’t recall her name.)

    It should be noted that “boundary violation” occurs in the “vanilla” dating world as well. It seems to be a universal problem.

  • Nea

    I’ve often said that if there was a heaven, all I asked of it was to see some people’s faces on Judgement Day.

  • Nea

    In a complementarian relationship, the wife manages the home and chores
    like dishes and cooking. But, rather than the husband relying on her
    expertise and her ability to manage her duties in the most efficient
    way, he dictates to her and punishes her for ignoring his dictate

    That’s because in a complementarian relationship, there is no actual management by both people. There is a master and a slave.

    The women in that blog are basically bragging about how strong the links in their manacles are.

  • Nea

    Their masculinity is threatened by being questioned or challenged by anything. And they brag about this!

    Nice to know they’re willing to advertise just how incredibly insecure they are.

  • Nea

    In a complementarian relationship, the wife manages is treated as the house slave of the husband, unable to do or have anything without his express and gracious permission.

    Fixed it for ya.

    Oooookay, Disqus told me the previous comment never posted. Sorry for the duplicate.

  • Allison the Great

    It’s a good thing that they do this , that way the women can run away from them as soon as possible. “Hi, my name is Jeff. And oh my god, you’re so hot. But seriously, I think all women are untrustworthy whores unless they’re willing to obey me and treat me with respect while I demean them. I hope that you’re not an untrustworthy whore. Are you? Hey, wait, where ya going? I’m a nice guy! Well you’re a fat feminazi dyke anyway you stupid whore!”

    Seriously, them being up front like that is useful to the women they meet. At least they won’t have to find out about this shit later down the road, like after marriage.

  • Yup. You and me both.

  • ConcepcionImmaculadaPantalones

    I’d assume that it means not going insane when constantly treated like they’re crazy for choosing to engage in BDSM.

    Not all BDSM relationships involve humiliation, nor do they all incorporate the concept of “punishment” (unjust or otherwise.)…Safe words come into play so that even when it’s been pre-negotiated that one partner wants to and will be saying no or ow that hurts, if it gets to be too much or they want to stop for any reason, there’s a signal/code word that will achieve that.

    Btw, not all bdsm relationships involve a man dominating a woman.

  • Rebecca Horne

    When it was originally conceived, “sane” meant that nobody was making decisions while under the influence of drugs or significant amounts of alcohol. What it means now that that is taken for granted is often debated, and a lot of people don’t use the acronym SSC specifically because it’s vague to the point of uselessness.

    Edit: I think most people interpret it somewhere in the realm of, “able to make good judgement calls” though.

    So, there isn’t so much a “type of thing,” that would be turned down because of sanity, rather a type of situation. “I’m comfortable doing this thing, and you’re saying you want it, but I’m going to say no because I think something is impairing your judgement.”

  • Rebecca Horne

    I do wonder about some of these people sometimes. Explicitly “Christian BDSM” is a thing that exists, and it’s about the most horrifying thing you can imagine.

    Debi Pearl strikes me as somebody who does crave a dominant partner, or at least enjoyed the fantasy of it as a teenager, and didn’t realize how far Michael’s abuse was from what she’d imagined until it was too late to back out.

  • Rebecca Horne

    If you’re asking for real, can you clarify what you mean by BDSM and s/m in the last line? “I’m not talking about the BDSM aspect, because not all s/m relationships involve that.”

    S/m refers to pain play, and BDSM is an umbrella term for all sorts of things, including pain play and dominance/submission. Are you asking what the difference is between submitting for religious reasons vs. submitting in the BDSM community?

    Edit: the bdsm community does not do outsiders and newbies any favors by using so many acronyms that look similar. SM stands for sadomasochism, m/s stands for master/slave, if that helps at all.

  • Astrin Ymris

    Assuming those posters ARE women, and not men “lying for Jesus” in an attempt to build an imaginary peer group. Just sayin’.

  • Astrin Ymris

    24 months of PROBATION!?! No wonder it’s so hard for women to “just dump” an abusive partner!

  • Rebecca Horne

    I think there is probably a lot of overlap in mindsets. Probably the biggest difference is that there is more space in the kink community to talk about how to structure your (plural “your”) power dynamic so that it’s meeting the needs of everybody involved.

    Nobody believes that they’ll go to hell if they do D/s wrong. ….except that one guy, but he’s an odd duck.

    But like, I went to a Leather convention a few weeks ago, and the community there was…really close to the original 1940’s gay leather scene that grew out of the military (in America, anyway). Very formal, very ritualized, with a strong sense of, “this is The Way you do these things.” (this is NOT my approach to kink, for the record).

    But even there, some of the restrictive ideas that used to be pretty core aspects of the community had dissipated into jokes with a, “aren’t we kind of silly for believing this?” tone.

    There were classes specifically about how to analyze your own d/s style and tailor it to fit your needs. One focused specifically on using D/s as a tool to manage disability.

    Those aren’t conversations that can happen easily if you think that being submissive is mandated by God. So submission for religious reasons ends up getting forced on people who would never have chosen it and don’t feel satisfied by it.
    That can happen in the kink community too, but it’s more like people who crave *something* not getting what they want and being manipulate, less than people being outright forced into things from birth.
    But if we control for people who absolutely DO freely choose to submit? Especially people who are doing it in service-oriented ways and not for sexual reasons? There’s probably a lot in common.

  • Nea

    I’ve met Jeff. Plus his brother Darryl and his other brother Darryl.

  • texcee

    Yeah, he’d find out what a sharp knife is good for. John Bobbitt, anyone?